all right we're recording please go ahead hi uh welcome everyone this is uh Bob hegner we're going to call the um calling the finance committee together uh for uh to meet uh to discuss three items on the budget uh one is the police uh Department second is Department of Public Works and the third is a brief discussion of the ammer regional Public Schools um for those you listening we're not going to vote on anything today so um if your um you know your public comment is such that you expect to vote please uh we are not going to vote on anything today um so this meeting is being called um it's being uh held remotely um so the first thing I need to do is go around the committee and make sure everyone can hear me and be heard so uh Kathy yes I'm here uh commissioner hanii present Bernie I'm here Andy Steinberg here Matt Holloway could you uh I didn't hear you Matt can you hear me pres okay great okay so everyone uh we do have a a uh Quorum of the committee although one member is missing um and so let me first thing on our item is public comments and uh if there are any uh Athena did you wanna yes if I may um just for members of the public or listening we're going to do police first and then at about 2:30 we're going to look at DPW budget and then 3:00 we're scheduled to do the regional uh have a discussion on Regional Schools just for people who are listening in and maybe more interested in one item than another thank you uh I'm going to open this up to public comment now um see if uh I don't see anyone from the attendees if you are an attendee and you wish to make a public comment pre please raise your hand uh and I'll recognize you um I three see three members of the public uh I do not see any hands so uh why don't we I'll close a public comment for now and uh if we have time I will see if people have any other comments but let's uh Focus now on the budget review uh police Andy did you want to take the lead on this I can but um I think that we're it's pretty straightforward and uh we sent in questions some which came from the two of us who were specifically assigned the way that we work it for the benefit of anybody listening is is that uh members of the committee are assigned to De assure that there's a thorough review and develop questions and uh Bob hegner and I shared that Duty on uh Public Safety budget qu lines and um but other members of the committee can also submit questions in their group together so that um the document that we've received uh is a comprehensive set and I appreciate the responses that we received already I don't know Bob would you like to just uh um have one of us go um work with uh Chief Ting and uh go through the questions and see if there's anything that people want to ask us supplemental or how would you like to handle it that would be that would be great um can you you can start off Andy and then if you want to hand out off to me at some point I'll take it from there do we uh would it be helpful to have um Athena put the document on the screen of the responses the questions sure responses and I Alisha is here too by the way oh yes Alicia uh councelor walker uh just want to make sure you can hear us and we can hear you uh yes thank you Bob okay thank you okay we're all set then so uh Chief Ting welcome I see that you have uh us young with you also but welcome and uh maybe what we should do is just go through the questions and U see if there any followup questions on responses rather than trying to go reading through them unless you have any introductory comment that you would like to make but we really want to just jump in and focus pretty much on the budget uh thanks Andy I'm fine with just jumping in I know that we're limited on time and there's a lot of questions to go through so uh I'm good to go as soon as you are yes so um we see in the F on the screen the first part is uh um some building questions and um there um couple of responses there and I U I don't have any followup as any members of the committee do or can't see all of the uh participants see if I can can't no hands up okay then let's move on hly you have a question um I was just going to clarify under the electricity cost that question so are the costs offset by the solar panel um so Sean managed that there are um almost every Department sees some sort of a a um credit on their monthly bill the police department does their budget is net of the credits um we have not increased the electricity line down there in quite some time assuming that the costs were eventually going to start going down thank you so Bob you want to take over like because you're it's really a chairing function at this point and sure I can I can take over um the next question was on series of questions were uh on uh Staffing operations um and uh we had some issues or some question about proposed increases which uh an overtime pay I think uh Captain Ting it would be helpful to talk a little bit about overtime because it does seem to be uh you know one issue that the police Department uh you know is always uh kind of has extra or has a need for overtime more than other departments I'm sorry can we pause for just a moment I just um received word that Amis media is having a a connectivity issue okay sorry for the delay should be just a moment thanks for your patience hully I I noticed your hand is still up okay just I I left it up but I I will help Gabe with the questions um in terms of the uh salaries and overtime okay when we're ready for for for thanks for your patience they're working on a playback issue for okay we're good to go thank you for your patience everyone Chief tting can you uh maybe talk about overtime a little bit and then Holly you can Chim in uh sure yeah I can talk about overtime um if we're talking about within the past year so you know we have had a dramatic uh decrease in Staffing um where at one point we had 38 officers in total where we were slated for 46 officers and at the peak in my career I think we've seen 52 officers at one point um so we have been at our lowest point um as far as I can remember throughout my career so 38 officers if you take a look at that breakdown um 13 of the officers are in a supervisory position uh we have five uh patrolman that are assigned to the detective Bureau uh one's a neighborhood liaison officer and one is an administrative officer so that leaves us with um uh forgive me on my math I think 17 officers to handle every single shift in which we have a minimum mandatory on every shift of three officers and one supervisor and one officer in house um and so that's contractual so we have to maintain those levels uh for our minimums and therefore uh because we only have so many officers to go around in terms of filling those shifts our overtime has been extremely high in in the past year or so uh to the point where we have uh supervisors that are now covering some of our Patrol shifts which is really rare uh in the past that used to be um you know a once in a while type of occurrence uh but now uh we're starting to see that it's a lot more prevalent until we have our numbers up and our numbers are increasing uh we currently have uh uh we have three officers that are on field training uh we have two officers that are going into the academy and we are are replenishing our number so that that number should decrease in terms of overtime for coverage purposes um relative to uh other types of overtime I think the question here was uh discussion about what type of overtime and that really depends um uh I think the question was can we quantify and track the time and cost of police hours um for noise on campus and oncampus events uh relative to overtime when we assign overtime to officers it isn't specific to just handling quality of life issues we ask the officers to respond to any call so we do not quantify that um certainly we can do that down the line if that's something that's being requested but at this point in time we don't do that um so overtime is uh this year it's a lot it's it's it's exceeding so hopefully that kind of answers that any other followup questions relative to that Holly did you want to add to that yep so I can I'll just quickly talk about a couple of things so um the one of the question was the proposed increase is 6.6% in the FY 25 budget um what I wanted to do was just explain that a little bit so what happened is in FY 24 when the budget was put together the police unions were operating without a contract so last last fiscal Year's increase was not worked into their budget so although this appears like it's a really large increase compared to some of the other departments this is basically also making up for the fact that last year their contract was not settled so we had to increase it by the amount of last year's contract and then also increase it for the fy2 contract so it does have a bit of a Snowball Effect when the budgets are set with contracts not being in place when the contract is not in place that additional estimated cost of their um colas goes into a holding pot it it goes just into the employee benefits line waiting to see what their contract gets settled at and what that percentage was be will be before it is allocated out to their um specific department so this I mean it it is a large increase but it is also the sort of the net effect of two years worth of increases because last year's Cola was not worked into the budget figures so that's why you see that as being a little bit higher this year um and then there was I think the question was was there also a question of how much um is overtime in this budget I thought I read that somewhere um so the the overtime budget for the police department is set at about $293,000 um that has increased very very little over the years I just went back and looked in like a 10e history and that's only gone up about $30,000 in 10 years on their overtime budget okay thank you Bernie you had a question yeah um just to Chief Tang welcome to the uh Welcome to the welcome to the wide world of budgetary questionings I appreciate it uh I I always looked at um just to start I've always looked at staff police overtime is sort of like an exercise like reading the tea leaves one bad case can throw um one serious case can throw your overtime way off and it seems like we've been able to avoid um real ups and downs so if I'm understanding you correctly uh a good part of the overtime budget right now is due to open positions that are being filled and not demand not extra need for extra police office hours um is is that fair uh very much so I mean the thing is is uh you know so we've lost a few our turnover rate has has been extreme in the past few years in comparison to uh a decade ago and that's for a multitude of reasons uh most recently we've lost uh a ton of officers to the state police so as I think everybody here knows Recruitment and Retention is a major issue in policing across the country um so right now there is really a lack of people who want to become police officers so that pool really small so across western Mass all of our agencies in western Mass are fighting from that same pool to try and get recruits in so part of it is timing um it takes solid year at least for us to get an officer on the road um it's expensive uh we did a case study in terms of how much it costs to get a recruit onto the road and it's approximately $25,000 per recruit just to get them outfitted trained properly and to get them out on the road so it's a huge expense and especially when the state police comes around and they put out an exam uh we usually lose a number of officers so most recently we lost four in the past couple months directly to the state police so we have to replenish that and it takes us a lot of time a lot of money a lot of effort okay and the other question I had relative to overtime is is parttime um yeah how do you see um Court time as impacting the department how do you have a what what kind of relationship does the department have with the District Attorney's office about pulling officers uh into court for lengthy periods of time so we have a very strong relationship with the DA's office and uh actually our figures for um po time has dropped dramatically um you know we have we're in an age of we're trying to deescalate and find other means other than having to criminally either sight or arrest somebody so our court time is dramatically decreased uh to the point where it's you know that's that's where we have some savings within our budget is court time super thank you you're welcome oh your hand is still up did you sorry Kathy did you have a question or a comment earlier uh no it got answered thank you okay um Chief maybe it's it's I'm just thinking it would probably be more efficient for you to just go through the the questions and talk in general about I mean we can all read the responses to the questions but more talk maybe a bit more generally I mean I can see some issues um I mean I would like you to talk about the level of Staffing at at at full Staffing whether that's uh sufficient for covering the town or whether you would prefer to have uh additional officers um talk about working with Crest because that's obviously a an issue that um you know people are very much interested in um and um you know maybe you can just go through some of the other questions uh as as the you know as we as they are listed here on the uh on the uh the the document sure in terms of Staffing you know if you are asking me if I had a wish list in terms of how many officers I could get you know certainly uh I would ask for as many as possible um you know I take a look at uh you know in terms of staffing issues is it enough is it viable um I think our department uh the culture and in terms of how much we do I think we do a lot more with very little that we have um if I had my wish I would have at least 75 officers I think we could do a tremendous amount uh with 75 officers or even to be honest with you if we got to the level of like 55 it' be fantastic uh there's a lot of Outreach that I envision our department to be able to accomplish I would love to have an Outreach team I would like love to have a um a a Traffic Unit to be able to respond to all the different complaints that we have across town I think that's probably one of our largest areas of complaints which is traffic and traffic responsibilities uh so there's a lot of things that we would love to be able to do um we would love to have a community policing unit uh to be able to satisfy all of our goals um but of course again that's a wish list and um we uh you know we would like to see an increase in that down the line but we are always uh kind of playing catchup because of the turnover rate um based upon what we had talked about uh just a few minutes prior um what was the second half of the question there Bob um it was really had to do with working with Crest and so working with Crest you know this this also is a work in progress you know as we all know Camille just got on board so we have some new leadership there's also some new responders that are there that need to get up to speed and uh you know it's a work in progress something that I'm going to quote uh Timmy Nelson from saying is that we're we're building a a plane while it's flying in the air and that's truly um the case uh at this point so there's a lot of uh lot of things to be ironed out uh we have a very strong relationship with Crest um we've developed a nice partnership with Camille and the fire department and we're willing to do what whatever it takes to make sure that Crest is successful I think that you know as an agency uh the Amis police department has has been there uh since the beginning in terms of supporting press um so we are open to ideas we I appreciate these questions are being presented um but unfortunately I don't have solid answers for all of the questions because again we have new leadership and we are trying to work this out to make sure that that this works out as as properly as possible thank you Kathy did has question uh yeah um I don't want to put you on the spot on this interaction but seeing seeing elements of what has usually been in your table including community policing could some of that be done in partnership with a member of Crest and I know we have right now A a model that says police do one thing and Crest does another completely but having seen what your community police person does which is a lot of uh mediating and getting people to talk to each other around you know so so it's looking for if we and this may be a larger I'm looking for efficiencies where each group doesn't have to staff up for everything because sometimes it feels like you both May respond um at a spring dance the police show up and Crush shows up because each has been called you know so so it's that interaction and areas that's not by law required that only a police person does it um is that clear you know think and I'm thinking forward to think of efficiencies like we don't yeah yeah I'm sorry to be honest with you Kathy I mean that's that's a we could probably spend hours on talking about that subject Alone um and we are certainly open to different ideas to try and figure out what is the most efficient uh processes to make sure that we all uh operate productively and function correctly so I know that the crest department is currently working on standardizing their their policies and procedures and that really is kind of uh the structure that needs to be developed so then we can kind of play off of each other and figure out you know what calls are they going to what calls are we going to um the example that you talked about the spring dance I I believe there was a domestic situation that was involved so really anything with a crime element at this point is something that we are going to respond to and anything with a with a level of safety element where somebody could potentially get hurt is something that we are going to respond to um but there are different models out there um that we've seen from other cities that either have co-response or a program similar like gr where it's tiered where depending on the call you might get a Crest member and a police member to respond and then once you discover what's what's uh what's detailing that particular call you can call one or the other off of it so these are all different options that we're taking a look at and exploring to try and figure out what works best for the town of amers okay and and I didn't I see Andy saying Bob I think it is a longer discussion so it's one I just want to include our in our be be sure we ask it as a question in our report yeah sure Andy yeah I I Chief when I I'm reflecting back on last year's meeting it was uh same meeting just different grouping in different time in with Chief Livingstone and when we were talking about the chart that's I think on page 120 that shows the number of Personnel in the department I think that the is is I understood his response at the time was that he uh said that the a number of um employees shown in the organizational chart was what he considered to be the number that was absolutely necessary in order to be able to assure on a 247 basis that there are enough officers available U to respond to any crisis situation in town where there was a potential um of a safety risk for either responding officer or for the public at large and uh so I guess the the um when I just wanted to make sure that I understood his response correctly and that it's um if so that you feel that it's a correct response um I don't know if he specified a number Andy or not I don't recall that um so I'm I'll be honest with I don't really recall what his response was in terms of what he felt was uh safe enough for our Police Department to police this community um you know certainly I think at this current level right now it is not safe uh entirely we are um struggling at in many junctures uh like I said earlier we have supervisors that are that are taking up Patrol shifts and that's that's a very unusual circumstance and you know when you talk about burnout and the amount of uh um time that our officers are expending you know is certainly will affect their performance to a degree um we're a professional agency and we are trained extremely professionally however we're talking about the human element that that takes a toll on our officers and our Personnel uh certainly morale gets affected uh so these are all things in their personal well-being so these are things that we take into consideration uh to be able to produce the best um customer service and product that we can produce for the public so these are all things that that are taken into consideration yeah of course you had previously said and I think uh about particular challenges that you are confronting right now because of turnover because of uh the um that have required you to use overtime for um just meeting routine shift requirements so I guess the question I was really trying to get at is assuming that um all of the positions could be filled and we were back in uh the turnover question was taken care of by new hes who had met the training requirements is the number that is shown um the number that would provide the at that point the adequate coverage because um we can't you know fortunately we do have to deal with the turnover and I guess that then I would have a follow-up question to after you've responded um so you know we are at 46 we will be 100% I guess your question is is that adequate um I personally would I think if we had 50 or more would be adequate at the very least so even at at 46 we are still struggling in many areas and would that 50 this I hopefully this will be my last question would would that increase also then provide a buffer so that when there's turnover there's there's sta available to more completely fill in at the time that uh we are dealing with the turnover issues I think it would I think it would you know if we had 50 officers and then uh if we lost a few here and there we would um we'd still have enough to maintain our minimum mandatory shifts and uh the amount of overtime would certainly decrease so I think it would be very beneficial and at the petran level who are coming in their you know their base pay is pretty low so it certainly um is cost effective thank you um there are a couple questions the next couple of questions are about really the the dispatch the Communication Center um one is uh that um we had um some increases in budget presumably it's because of what Holly explained uh we also there was um a drop in radio transmissions and the response was that um you know there there's you know we're at a basically I it seems like we're at a minimum mandatory Staffing level standard for the for the Communication Center is that correct uh so we have Jason Rushford on here and he is uh he's representing our communication Center Jay you want to chime in on this one and uh Bob just a quick time check we're at 2:35 right now okay hi Bob yeah we're stapped at fully right now at 12 positions that's including Mike curtain as the supervisor and two lead dispatchers underneath him and then nine dispatchers to work the line uh we are fully staffed at that right now we have a minimum of two dispatchers on press shift we try to do three whenever possible and at some points there's a mandatory of three on Duty minimum for busy weekends busy times ideal Staffing would be three on duty 247 but make our jobs a lot easier a lot better for the residents calling in a lot more continuity of calls a whole host of things we can get into um we can work with two but that is our absolute minimum three would definitely be ideal thank you um Chief there's a couple of questions we have about um well one is about uh the clinical support operations and uh you know clinical co-response can you uh talk a little bit about that just explain kind of how that's what what is it and how how is it working it seems to be new this year sure um sure I I invited uh Captain young to join us because he is uh the head of our crisis intervention team and he is a lot more verse on this so this is not something new uh but Captain young if you don't mind joining in good afternoon everyone no it's not new this year um we we've had a we've had a clinician assigned to to the agency for a number of years now um kind of the Genesis of it began almost 20 years ago when we adopted the jail diversion project and the CIT project it would have been I might have been it quite 20 years I should I could double check that 15 16 years ago and one of the Essences of jail diversion as the chief intimated earlier um was that we we try to deal with core problems and and make referrals as opposed to taking you know taking criminal action in in some of the the low-lying criminal responses that we have um in about 2017 or 2018 I I met with the Department of Mental Health and went to a couple of different larger agencies that were already employing co-response um and saw what they were doing there and the idea behind it is is that police officers go and respond to the scene um in concert with a trained licensed clinical worker you once the once the scene has been has been maintained in other words safety is no longer an issue the clinician and the police officer have a discussion about what's best for the client at that point in many instances that you know the person can be de-escalated at the scene um and then it all becomes resource driven you know quite frequently we go with our clinician the police officers make it you know make conversation or have conversation with that that clinician she has she has a wealth of experience at CSO prior to coming here and um you know we stay for safety reasons there are other times when she feels comfortable to uh remain behind without a police officer in many instances she meets with them at the Ed um there are so many different Avenues that we can do to provide services to people that are have some type of um some type of need short of arresting them and bringing them before their Court where they can be order to order to um to some of the same Services they could get in real time and that that would that's the real that's the real basis of having a call responder is that they're actually providing with services in real time and not after there's an arrest made or citations made or in many instances police officers didn't have the capabilities to to deescalate at the scene so we with section 12 of them and bring them to the hospital and this is a way to do that without having to be as quite as invasive so co-response is not new um almost every agency here in western Mass applo co-response to some degree Hadley PD does Northampton PD East Hampton Springfield Westside I mean I was meeting with ho PD back in 17 and 18 and they were they already had Co responders responding with their with their cops at that time so um that's in a nutshell I I could talk forever and I know guys are on a time constraint about it um it's done so many wonderful things for our community it's limited our arrests you see our number our arrest numbers have depreciated um we've changed the way some of one of the questions later on is is why does our recordkeeping look differently where there's more cist citizens and what I what I did over the last couple years is I I went the original call that would have been something like a disturbance or a shoplifting or what we've recoded those um because we have put less value on the need for criminal response and more need on for the welfare of the patient or the client and that's so that's why the numbers haven't really changed it's I just kind of mumbly pegged some of it so that I could Bean count in a later time to see exactly how effective this was bar mind the clinician doesn't work for us right so they work for CSO so I I have to have discussions with the supervisors at CSO about their effectiveness and there's so many privacy concerns there obviously so we sometimes we have to talk a little bit in code um to make certain that the client's privacy is respective yeah does that answer the question yes it does my wife is a clinical psychologist so I do understand uh the issue of uh of uh privacy very much it's it's very it's a very real thing and we would never because not only do we put the client in the bind we put the clinician in the bind too so yeah yeah um there's a number of other questions here but um maybe in the interest of time um maybe we can just focus on a couple uh one is uh there was a question about um the the police cruisers and the cost of replacing them and I know that we're trying to find hybrid Cruisers uh to replace the the gasoline Cruisers and the question is what experience do we have do we have any sense of whether the hybrid Cruisers will last longer so we won't need to replace them as of often um will we get any savings other than you know the gas mileage or will you know is it just really gas mileage that that we're gonna we're going to see uh lower cost for B that's hard to determine only because the hybrid technology is is still relatively new when I say it's new it's been out there uh for Consumer products but for police packages it's not as new um so we f face a lot of challenges you know ultimately we would like to see all of our vehicles to be electric uh but certainly that technology has not caught up yet uh for police vehicles so right now we are uh a little bit hindered by only using hybrid uh technology and so far um you know we use Ford products and Ford we use Ford products simply because that is the uh that's the number one uh company that that supplies for the police demand um for services and for the product itself so so far I we haven't Quantified it you know certainly we've seen cost Savings in fuel usage um but in terms of how long they last that kind of remains to be seen um unfortunately we don't have a large enough sample to be able to give you a valid answer to that uh but so far they've been pretty good they've been holding up very well Chief if I could just chime in there too that the primary reason why we use Ford as well is because of all the gear that we put in there it would be such an enormous cost if we had to retrofit so long before Chief Ting was in charge the decision was made that that was the product we were going to go with so we're kind of it's kind of like the guy who has one suit and buys new ties we're kind of in the same boat right there that ret the retrofit cost would be enormous if we went to Chevrolet or some other some other source yeah just just uh you know aside but my my wife and I used to live in in Northern Virginia and there was a small town there called FS church and there was a guy you know it okay so the guy there was a guy there who now happens to be their their member of Congress but he at the time was just a a business owner and he owned a Volvo dealership so we got when we went to to Falls Church we noticed all the police cruisers were Volvos smokes ho smokes he said this must be a very wealthy town but it turns he donated all them to the town so oh neat yeah my my my hometown they were all Chevys um but I'm happy that uh the whole retrofit piece was mentioned because that's um that's part of of that goes along with the the cars is moving all that stuff from one car to another uh you can't just get down buy one off the lot um and the other thing is is that well we don't hopefully never have to use them in a high-s speeed Chase have to be prepared to handle a highspeed Chase and so you know that um yes 100,000 miles is not bad for a my car but for somebody who might have to chase someone and do it safely and carefully 100,000 miles could be a losing proposition be honest with you Bernie we're trying to decrease any type of chases oh chases Chas we don't like the chases the liability is uh just too much but uh to be honest we all have to stop watching I yeah all right B I just want to I want to make us aware of the time it's 2:45 and we have another depart I understand I understand I'm trying to wrap it upks um Chief is there anything else you want to add before we wrap it up uh no not at this time but certainly you know if there's any other questions Offline that anybody wants to ask you know I'm certainly available as well as Captain young at any time okay well thanks very much gentlemen um we're g to now move on to to the DPW Bernie do you want to lead the charge on this sure um Gilford and were are they you're here somewhere they're making their appearance okay we're here Amy's here yeah good afternoon and thank you for uh I printed it out 10 pages of response um so Gilford if you want to talk about the over budget you can go ahead and do that at least in terms of responding the fance committee um I I'm going to ask you in the interest of time to kind of hit some of the highlights where you see strengths and weaknesses in the budget where you wna uh where you'd like the department to move to uh but before we do that I really want to uh move the discussion off the usual um uh Paving potholes and snow removal and focus on uh what you led in terms of with your response to questions storm water management and environmental issues uh and where we stand in terms of of those uh of of climate change and where the environmental needs and regulations are beginning to really push the department in certain directions well as I said my response I mean we could do a whole presentation on just how the environmental rules and the environment is affecting the department right now um we've we've had meetings with other agencies and um people kind of are amazed at how much we're involved in in the environment every day I mean we're doing something something we're doing is is affecting the environment or being affected by the environment every day it's just it's just amazing from our potholes to just operating the water and treatment water treatment plant and the Wastewater plants um we could really talk a lot about that we really do need to beef up our our staffing in that area we have basically we have two people who work on most of that right now and we need to really change that and add some more people um our environmental scientists it was recommended that I recommended in my budget that our environmental scientists uh position be augmented with a a manager type position to oversee the environmental scientists and our lab technicians and our staff that's involving handling all our permits um every well water Wastewater they have a permit that we have to abide by by D and EPA um the landfill has an EPA and an En and E an EPA and a d permit as well the landfill actually has three permits going on right now um there's the landfill closure permit there's the transfer station permit and there's the permit for the flare which is an air quality permit which has to be taken care of all the time so we we have a lot going on um Highway has to deal with our conservation department and water water quality issues on the highway side so that they're doing it as well it's it's you don't do we don't do basically anything I said that really poorly I apologize we everything we do is touched by it and everything we have to do has some type of inter action with some Environmental Group not just our Conservation Commission but our state and federal Partners as well and the the the other piece that U we we sort of LED with was the so-call nipes permit um uh the particular concern there is storm water runoff of was uh from the streets and uh coming into compliance with uh the epa's requirements so I mean the be the best thing I can tell you about that is read the answer to the question that's from that's from Beth Wilson our environmental scientist she is pretty much managing the program for us right now she's laid we have specific tasks we have to do they're laid out we have annual task they're laid out in the answers um and she's very very good at what she does well as everything else she's doing right now and the other the other thing that I'd like you to discuss a bit and I'm I'm you'll you'll get a ton of more specific questions um is the the the construction issues the construction issues around finding a new home for the DPW uh around water treatment and around the Sur treatment plants and the the infrastructure that connects those particular buildings so the the new DPW building is going very slowly um probably just just as uh since you're the counselors one of the issues we keep running into is there's no carveout in our Zoning for municipal purposes um you want to build a fire station the fire station has to meet the same requirements as if you want to build a a for-profit restaurant or Diner or a hotel um this these services and these facilities were building are for the people of this town to serve the people of this town There's No profit I get no profit share in I get there's no no profit whatsoever in this for us so I mean we're not cutting corners or wanting to cut corners for mere profit and increasing our bottom line we're really doing it to try to get something for the public that works within the budget they're demanding us to work in so our zoning is totally against us in some cases uh lot coverage um Wetland what you can do in a wetland buffer what you can't do in a wetland buffer those are things that are totally um something we can have a say in but we choose not to as a community um so we're having a hard time with that with finding a DPW home our Wastewater and water facilities water is much better in much better shape than Wastewater right now we were waiting to receive our permits from EPA and D on our Wastewater side just to see what they were going to require us to do um they actually had the could have what they could have done is made us do an awful lot of changes to our facility and change our process is a great deal but we were we kind of came out on the good side we now we just need to upgrade our facilities and get ready for the next round of permits in five 10 20 years but we will have some upgrades coming to the Wastewater Plant here which are going to be costly I I just want to come in with a couple of facts on this because I've been putting together a report on Wastewater so I've been looking at the numbers and our wastewater treatment facility it's 45 years old and there's a lot of equipment there that is original um and it's in a harsh environment and so we're kind of every day struggling to maintain that equipment and our sewer system of all of the sewer collection system 67% of the pipes in the ground are more than 50 years old so two-thirds of the pipes in the ground are more than 50 years old like we're fighting a battle because we haven't been able to get the funding in the past and now we're at that critical point um unfortunately yeah and Wastewater treading plan is also sort of like an ongoing chemistry experiment um it is it's a light living creature yeah oh you gotta keep the bugs happy yes the bugs aren't happy the process stops we we have had a couple of sort of overflows fatbergs and the like in the last year or so that uh um that's just you're you're you're seeing that that's you're saying more of that is likely to uh likely to occur um or other again how how's that being managed so for our overflows one of our biggest over overflow areas is one of our pump stations um the pump station is pumping and the flow into the pump station is greater than what's being pumped out and then it'll overflow at a couple manholes farther down Down The Pump Station doesn't stop or it still does its job but the release is farther down the system um we actually have that under contract for replacement and we'll be replacing that this summer um so that one should get better um we do have a lot of inii we need to address and that's probably the bigger issue is addressing inii um as this as as the rainstorms become more intense and we have more frequent rainstorms and less snow we'll actually see more II and that'll cause us to have some more overflows as well so that is something we are looking at we have a contract out for some pipe lining which is where you slip a uh reinforced plastic or fiberglass plastic uh sleeve inside the pipe you harden it and you make the pipe you rejuvenate the pipe and you stop the Leakes coming in so we are working on that as well um for those watch ing at home I and I is infiltration and inflow never it's water's getting in it shouldn't be there right um and again this has an impact on the um on the funding uh on our if we could actually if we could actually have a drought we might actually see some positive on the inii because instead of inflowing in the water table will drop low enough that the water in the sewer system will flow out of the pipes xflow and we would have some help but I don't know if there's really a drought in our future right now to help us okay but the the impact on the Enterprise funds here in terms of of water and sewer um it looks like we're should be expecting increases in those because of construction because of inflation because of what but all three of those things are causing us problems right now the we added $200,000 to the water and to the Sewer uh accounts just in the General on andm to cover the cost of equipment equipment is skyrocketed in cost uh weight times have increased so inflation is a big a big issue for us right now um and because the plant's older and we're replacing more things we're being hit with those costs now if we had done it 15 years ago we'd be paying a cheaper cost but we're not we're paying the costs that we have now so that inflation is our biggest issue right now as far as costs are going all right so once again deferred maintenance means broken um uh Mandy Joe did you have your hand is up yes I did um a couple questions for some of the stuff that's gone over but I think the first one is about rates and maintenance um rates are on our agenda for I believe next week so I I'd like you to come prepared to talk about those rate increases and potential need for more rate increases as it relates to all of this maintenance that you've been talking about um as we discussed the the water and sewer rates um and and get towards making a recommendation on those for the next year and the year after and all um because I think a lot of this conversation what you're saying directly relates to what we've been charging and what we should be thinking about charging in the future um and since we're on limited time I want to save all of that for that next meeting when it it it's not it's not it's pertinent to this but it's also pertinent to that so I think we can put it off in terms of the um DPW headquarters and other things like that um I know a couple of years ago I asked our manager and our assistant Town manager about have they looked at proposing changes to zoning to make it easier to build a DPW particularly some of those lot coverage lines for municipal Services because when you're looking at Ro and rld you're every 80 you know every acre of coverage you need like 10 acres of non- coverage you know because it's so low on lot coverage but I guess my question for you is that it's twofold one that was asked that was not answered in the documents it was just left there which is um a a statement of uh implementing the next phase of DPW headquarters as recommended by the feasibility study does that mean in your mind that the department is unwilling to consider alternatives to the recommendation um meaning are you willing to consider multiple locations differ size multiple stories things because the recommendation was an 880,000 ft building on one floor um if you consider multiple stories you've decreased your lot coverage and all and so the next question is also have you talked to our conservation and Development Department our manager our assistant manager about the potential need for zoning changes in order to make it easier to potentially find sites to build a DPW because of the dimensional standards and if so where are those conversations or what were those responses uh given your what sounds like a little bit of frustration or um you know struggle with that issue a discussion on on zoning and so forth that this discussion has been had with the town manager the assistant Town manager they're quite brief discussions they um if they have taken the information have worked on it they have not passed it back to me um it's not um showing up anywhere else as far as looking at alternate alternative to the layout we have we have looked at multiple stories we have looked at multiple sites um you have advantages and disadvantages to both of those um the contractor consultant we have working with us right now is wrapping up their study and we will be taking that to conservation and planning to talk about how to make this work in that area um and it may it may not it may work it may not work um there's there are concerns and then we can sit down discuss once we do that we can sit down and discuss possible ways of getting around it um some some of them may mean we some some of the things that are going on May mean yes we actually do build four different buildings so if you build four different buildings you have four parking lots four storm water treatment systems you have uh staff space for four different buildings which means showers locker rooms all all separate things um yes they'll be smaller but there's going to be a minimum size and they have to meet those requirements so as you spread us out if we decide to be spread out or if town so decides it um you're going to have to put all the amenities that are supposed to be there it's going to have to be exhaust um just like in a police in a fire station where you have the exhaust systems for every vehicle controlled in some type of positive ventilation system there's going to to be positive ventilation in every little building you build that has vehicles in it where if you build one building with one system you have you have some type of you have oh the word just went in my head and out of my head sorry I love getting older but you have some econ economy of scale there when you do a big bigger building when you go smaller buildings you start you're going to have there's gonna be a size building which doesn't matter how how how small it is it's still this amount of money to put that exhaust system in it whether it it's twice that size or three times that size um those are the things we're actually I mean we're seriously looking at and we have to look at um I personally don't see um I'm not really sure how we're going to do this I personally see it anymore how we're going to do it so it's really getting to be a little a little frustrating um and um but we're looking at everything and and to keep hearing people say we're not looking at things and we're refusing to look at things is is even more frustrating and I sorry to say it that way but that's just the way I w't say it did you wanna have a comment Kathy you're muted that's it's a comment that is going to be brief because I'm conscious of time Mandy Joe just opened up a big topic um that can't be easily answered and Gilford part of what she was asking wasn't many buildings it was one taller building and putting the equipment in a ponet hut so I'm not saying that you're not looking at options but there is a starting to be we might need a team to be looking at this so I think Bob it feels to me there's another discussion that needs to happen and it can't happen in the contents of the budget and it more it it bounced out to many of our attention because it says working on and we weren't sure we even had a place yet so I so I really think that this needs it's a a plea to the town manager to get an internal group so my my only other question and I think you answered it through this terrific document is it looks like we don't have resources for repairing pipes for doing some of the basic things we have to do and I don't know how much we've Quantified that so Mandy Joe asked you know as you as you look toward our sewer system and our pipes um if it's rate increases over several years the more people can have an understanding that we got these pipes are going to fall apart otherwise I and and I haven't you may have those internal reports so it's actually just doc creating documents for us to be able to use to explain to people what the backlog is um and I also notice that you said your salaries aren't necessarily competitive in the marketplace anymore that we hire people we train them and then we lose them so I think that is another trying to get a sense of Staffing uh lack of Staffing and key things because of turnover and I I don't that's not in the document right now but you spoke to it so I don't feel like we need a lot more information right now Bob I just think we need to flag these as budget concerns um that I think that's that's my main um comment and I will say just Paul in a general comment about the budget book I like the fact that the Enterprise fund shows us what The Fringe Benefits costs are when we look at other departments we don't even see it multiply it by 25% or something that fringes so we get a a fuller sense of the Staffing cost because you've got the larger piece so I was glad to see that in in those budgets thank you just just one quick thing I mean we are looking at multiple story buildings we have broken the but we have broken the site down for the DPW but what we're looking at is a site that's not going to serve for 20 years it's a site that will work work for the future so even if we build a building which is three stories tall and all the admin functions are on the top two fun St stories and shops are on the bottom we still have to know where all the layout is for the equipment and those layout areas which may someday hopefully be built in the buildings because we've actually gone to the point where we're just gonna have everything outside basically except what has to definitely be inside you still have to account for those future things so if you took away that we're not even thinking about going up in the air and we're just trying to be spread out everywhere we're we're really not and I I'm just GNA say that if we want to have a committee great we can have a committee um and work this out and push a little farther maybe we'll go a little faster Council Hani um thank you no and and I know that's for discussion later and I don't know whether I don't think this is a Guilford Amy question but it's an Enterprise fund question that I sent in late and it didn't look like it made it to any of the documents and it's about the transportation fund um that whoever needs to answer it in writing would be great but I wanted to make sure I got it out I noticed the transportation fund was um using retained earnings to essentially cover what looked to me like 15% of its expenses um and so I have a question about whether that is sustainable um or what is the plan to reduce the use of if it's not sustainable to reduce the use of retained earnings to pay for the expenses from the Transportation fund and I just wanted to get it out there before I know we have to move on on other things there there is a memo on response on the transportation fund which I have not had a chance to read U which we got just a very short time ago so it's there and those questions um Jen Le Fountain would probably be better or maybe Holly can speak to those Holly has your hand up Holly I can I can very quickly speak to the transportation one um and the the reason why we had to use aund $36,000 worth of retained earnings and this year were for one-time purchases for Capital so we had $144,000 worth of capital requests in this year and not enough recurring Revenue new to cover those so the retained earnings is for onetime purchases of capital it is for a new vehicle um was the big item that was needed and um some additional parking kiosks um painting and uh repairs to the elevator in the parking garage thank you hey anything else on DPW or Enterprise funds okay uh councelor hanii sorry just one more for potentially later I we've heard about about the Staffing situation and and the potential need for Staffing for storm water for you know other other things um maintenance of athletic fields uh that question was there but didn't have an answer to it so if you could later on or send us later thoughts on how um the potential or what I guess I asked it as the level of maintenance is doable within the current budget um versus what is being asked as potentially or talked about for later if you could just expound on that somehow about what what the level that has been discussed potentially with the redo of track fields and all of that what that would look like within your budget or your personnel as we move towards those convers ations potentially at later meetings regarding funding of track it would be great to have they that was a late that was a late answer I I got Allan's not to give his his piece to that and then I added some more to it so I sent that on later um but quickly just the part I put on there so I can pass it on is you know when we were asked to do a plan to maintain the fields we actually came out with three pieces we had a capital piece that we needed we had a Personnel piece we needed and we had a ongoing well ongoing maintenance which is ongoing materials um Capital piece was funded the Personnel piece was not and the materials part was not funded so that's where we're starting this year the Capital Equipment is all in but we weren't the request for additional Personnel did not happen and then the request for additional material did not come forward either so we'll be scaming around trying to make things work and adjust things things for the next year and hopefully in the next budget we can probably get some more material at least in so we have the material we need um Mandy this wasn't in a document it was in the email that that I sent you if you scroll down those responses are there thanks any other questions or any issues okay why don't we uh we'll wrap it up thanks Guilford and Amy and um we'll uh move on to the regional Public Schools um thank you goodbye so uh Paul did you wanna uh say anything about the school budget um yeah sure and so the um you know the Regional School District had asked for an 8% increase um or a 6% increase I'm sorry and uh we had submitted a budget of 4% and we have been just so you're aware we're looking at different funding options to to to achieve that Gap that additional 2% Gap um you know the only sources that we really have are one-time funding so it's it's something that we'd want to um we're going to dig into a little bit more to figure out um what that would look like and terms of um in in terms of increasing the base for the school district which we are I think the budget coordinating group later this week we're going to talk about look at some projections in terms of what does it mean to the town's overall finances if you increase and build into the base an increase of 6% versus 4% and our goal is to have that present presentation to the BCG so everybody all the elected officials can can see what that looks like um I do recognize that um you know we have a brand new superintendent coming on on board um they're going to have a you know there's a there's a ramp up time you have to give people time to get their feet wet and presenting them with a Challen very challenging budget situation right off the bat is probably not a great thing and so that's why we're working pretty hard to figure out where that 2% would come from we're looking at arpa quite frankly as this primary source um the impact there but there's every every choice you make to support an operating budget means that there's a consequence and so that consequence in this case would probably be in terms of the um solar panels at the Fort River School um that we would reduce and uh to be able to meet this the um the operating budget needs of the of the district so that's I just want to sort of say put it out there like that's that's where we're thinking um and with the goal being that if um we were to move that direction you would see a revised budget request from the town manager to the Council that the council would then uh act on or would have an explanation for how we would reach that additional 2% okay Kathy did you want to add anything yeah um I guess Paul I had hoped we would hear a range of potential options for financing as you know I I sent you some ideas so my question is not um don't you are but if there are alternatives will the council have an opportunity to weigh in I am I'm POS I'm totally in favor of going to the 6% so I understand the issue is both how to fund it for FY 25 and then worry about FY 26 um and where that money comes from so so going to BCG is is one route to go but I think ultimately we're going to have to figure out how to finance it at the at the council level so when when is that discussion going to happen because we are due to write a report and and I'm I'm squirming here because my draft sections for the finance report to the council happen to be the regional school and the elementary school so right now I have this we recommend that and and and a series of blanks and um I've got the three $155,000 in couple places and here's where the money could come from and then raise so it's a timing issue on a getting more information so one way I thought of drafting it is here are potential financing sources and those will be determined later and I was going to just do bullet bullet bullet but but I don't want to do that without being informed by what you and the finance your teams are are looking at um so so that that's a long way of saying I thought we would get more today than what you just gave us yeah so we don't have more today I mean again we've been Sandy Po's been away for a week quite quite frankly so that's part of it but also it's the council's role is to appropriate the funds not to identify the funding sources that's that's our responsibility and so if we you know in the in the requ reement is that the budget be balanced if I can deliver you a balanced budget based on the um guidelines from the council then um then the council the council when it votes um really just it does vote the appropriation level and you know welcome your ideas I mean always um because you're always thinking about those things Bob can I just um just follow up on that is our role but we're also having we're being asked to consider the capital fund and the capital plan the capital plan has a 12month debt service line item for the Jones library and as far as I can see there won't be 12 months of it so we're going to be asked to approve that as well so when I I say we may not say take it from here or take it from there but some of these things are interactive with other decisions we being asked to make so that's that's where I um think of the appropriation role is looking interactively with other budgets um that's it yeah no but I understand that but again the council's you know we the the capital budget has a goal of 10.5% and so what you're suggesting is taking some of the capital the one-time Capital funds and putting it into an operating budget and I think that that's not where the guidelines have been I I realize that would be and they were guidelines set by the council so I yes I don't feel like anything is in cement right now but in any case if it's if it's cemented you know it it it just means it may warrant a discussion on whether it's I understand that would mean Capital wasn't 10.5 it was 10 point something um yeah I I do understand that yeah okay councelor hanii uh I got a lot of questions a lot of thoughts um and my question questions I think are going to apply to Paul but then I'm going to try and ask some for our our school committee members and superintendent that are here too um so bear with me as I think through some of this um Paul you just said if you're moving in the direction of funding it through something like arpa you would submit us a revised budget request um meaning does that mean you're trying to not have to make the council use the um mgl that allows the council by a two-thirds vote to increase one budget area and decrease another area so that's sort of question number one um question number two you just said that the council's roles to approp appropriate not identify sources but the council does have this option of using the mgl to increase one and essentially identify another line item in the budget to decrease and so I think that's where Cathy's question is going of hoping to hear other options because um we could decrease another line item that would include clude um it could be the elementary school line item it could be the opep line item it could be a capital line item it could be the municipal government line item it could be a combination of all three I'm throwing a lot out there so that no one hates just me sort of everyone can say oh I don't want to do that one but um you know that that 355 could come from a number of different ones and I think this committee is hoping to hear your thoughts on each of those sort of potential options of if the council were to use that one I do appreciate you trying to find a way where we don't have to use that one but you know that option is always there um if we don't use that if you submit another budget line another logistical question do we need another public hearing on the budget how does that work under our Charter and is there enough time for that if another budget is actually submitted or you know that how does that process work um for the school committee members um one thing Paul just asked or put out there was using arpa including or more particularly the potential of not building more solar on the Fort River School site which would have an effect of if we had used arpa for that instead of potentially using it for one year of operating at the region the elementary would if arpa was used for that solar would incur and reap the benefit of lower operating costs for 20 or 30 years what does the school committee think about losing that 20 or 30 year decreased operating cost at the elementary level in favor of one year of increased operating costs expense you know funds at the region level um another question is the three towns have that have voted this budget and this assessment method have all my understanding is they have all found the money through savings through one-time non-recurring revenues and it sounds like our our executive branches seeking to find the money also through one-time nonrecurring revenues what is the school committee's position on that not becoming the base then for the next year because as we all know using nonrecurring revenues as the base for operating Fund in increases has put us in this position um of massive decreases so so what is the school committee's thought of keeping the base at the 4% level that was originally um four towns agreed but accepting the 6% level next year but realizing that the base needs to begin at an increase from a 4% level because that's what's built into each of the four towns' operating budgets recurring Revenue operating budgets instead of nonrecurring Revenue operating budgets um for now I'm going to stop there that's a lot already okay so I can address the ones that were started towards me so um the council has the ability to override the budget by two-thirds vote if it makes reductions you have the authority to reduce any line item you know any any item as well so those authorities are with the council that's your decision um you know if we again I haven't I'm putting out there that we're looking in this we don't have confirmed a recommendation to you I all the different options are are looked at we would recommend against using um reducing our um um um opep uh funds we recommended against a certain number of things because we think that's bad policy and also we just went through a bond rating which where we were successful in renewing our bond rating at doua Plus part of the our major argument is that we continue to contribute in a responsible way to our op obligations and to our pension obligations I think dipping into that is damaging to us especially when we're entering an era when we're going to be going into bid going out for bonding in a significant way but again you have the authority to override to override the budget uh request by two-thirds vote for the school department if you so choose you have the ability to reduce any you know the budget as you see fit um you know right now I put out that I would submit a revised budget it may not be necessary to have a revised budget if we do fill that 2% with arpa that's a that's it does not may not have to be a separate process if there is a revised budget does it require a um a public forum uh it's a good question I don't you know we've talked a little bit about that but we haven't really dug into it in terms of exactly um what the format would be but there is time to to address that um so I think that I tried to address the ones that you that I'd written down and and and and just sort something you asked the the school committee about is you know it's not a good plan to be um funding operating budgets on with one-time money it's a bad plan um but we recognize the situation that we're in we recognize the um constraints that the school district is in and the sort of challenging management you know with a with a brand new superintendent coming in so totally recogniz in that and seeing that this might this is this these are extenda circumstances um but um we and that's why I would be recommending that we look at you know bringing everyone to the table to really look at what is the long-term sustainable plan when by definition our our revenues are constrained um and um by proposition two and a half and um and what is our plan as a community because everyone schools are are are very valued as everyone knows so um I think that's an important piece of this conversation that we're that we continue to work at this together um as a as a both school committee school officials Town Council Town officials things like that thank you Andy yeah no I appreciate the discussion that we've been having I look at this from my years of working on this as needing to be addressed as an fi25 issue um and that u i therefore do not like the idea of getting into the discussion of the base because I'm not sure that it has relevance to anything in the end when we're going to be dealing when we get to dealing with FY 26 I think we really need to address question of is this something that's necessary and appropriate to do for fy2 and how do we go about doing it and if we do it and I think that those are the things that I would like to focus on and let FY 26 take care of itself when we get there but I would very much be encouraging the school committee to not use its usual method I think that um that usual method of developing budgets has created a crisis that has exhausted us and that is to take level Services figure out the cost of level services and then make adjustments to a level Services budget I think it's time for the school committee in the um School administration to think about a different methodology for beginning the budget discussion because um this has created a crisis year after year where we just continued to um handle budgets one year at a time and let our decisions be made on what programs to be cut on a year-by-year basis as opposed to with a long-term vision of what we're going to do and I realize that we're coming in with new superintendent and I welcome a superintendent bringing fresh ideas to it think we need to start a process but we need to make sure that we involve our new superintendent into being a real voice in that process um the other things that I just wanted to um bring up just really quickly is um you know I I heard the presentation that was being made uh by Kathy regarding um possible changes in the um capital budget that result from decisions that might be made with the library there are a lot of Co um factors with the library I think it's really opens up um such a huge topic and so many unknowns and and we have to cite back to the to the discussion that was reported in the newspaper the other day about about the cost of doing um the repair option b if the repair option b becomes necessary we um have no real information that it's going to allow us to to make appropriate decisions I think we came to 10 a 12% worked for years to get 10 to 10 a 12% on Capital because we realized that the town was not being served by not getting there and and um that um it would be um shortsighted to use a one-time opportunity to take money away from that Source when there are so many things that have to be done on Capital not the least of which is uh roads we drive on every day and um I guess the last thing that I wanted to just say is that this morning we had the monthly fiscal policy committee meeting of the MMA and the issue that we are confronting here and that we have read about in um U so many districts in neighboring communities in Western Massachusetts is not a regional issue it is a Statewide issue and um they're certainly U with uh Senator Comerford being one of the leaders um efforts to try and think through long-term Solutions but long-term Solutions don't get here in the short term and um we are going to have to be um factoring that in as we go forward so those were comments I wanted to make thank you Andy Bridget did you w to weigh in well um yeah I just wanted to say a couple small things um Doug can give you the numbers but I remember from the four towns meeting that he showed the difference between if we added the amount to the base or if we did not and what that meant for the long-term sort of school budgets and so I may I may need to talk to Mandy on offline but my feeling is that the other towns included it as part of the base so um so we would be the outlier there if we used it as a onetime fund and then just in terms of like um we're here with our regional school committee hats so we can't you know put on the ammer school committee hat and say whatever so but obviously I think in all the school buildings in especially in my role at the region but on the elementary too the more sustainable we can use operating funds to increase the sustainability of those budgets the better so I I don't like the idea of you know using the solar panel money at all um and the very final thing I wanted to say is I think the Senate was going to vote even today and so there might be a little bit more money there um in the rural school aid and the 110 that Senator coma for was looking for so um maybe someone has more updated information than me I've been at work all day but um but I know that was going to happen today and there's just one final thing I wonder what the timeline was of going up to 10 and a half% in how that aligns with the with the timeline of the schools getting less the budgets I haven't looked at it it's just a question that popped into my head so um I think the very final thing I would say again is just if that big question of that each department getting 4% really an interesting question because do we prioritize equality or do we prioritize equity and I do think like every department has high needs but the school needs right now are out of proportion to anything we've seen before in education thank you Kathy did you want to say anything yeah I just um I want to just weigh in Paul I mean this is more direct to to you in terms of arpa um the um as Mandy very quickly rattled off the solar money not only potentially generates an offset to the utility cost in the school we get a federal rebate on it once we spend that money so so it's not a million dollars we're spent we're spending a million dollars but then we're we're saving we're getting another thing back so it's a phenomenal investment so you have two other batches of of orpa money and we have to designate them by the end of the year we don't have to use them by the end of the year one is a youth center where we've never quite figured out what that money is and one is a large chunk of um for uh Banks and so I just really urge you I'm not against taking it out of of of arpa but just really to think on where is it coming from and as that piece then the other um this is this is directed at Regional Schools a little bit um we've got before us a some choices on the track and field project and when I looked at what I'll call option two the middle one that gives us a restored field and but doesn't root tape if you took uh a piece out that could be funded later mainly lighting um and plan to go back to all the towns for CPA money for lighting you you don't get 355,000 but you get pretty close and if we thought of it that the town's piece was 900,000 of free cash so if we do something less than that toward it with with with that as a new different Source it could then go into the regional budget so I'm just putting this is Kathy thinking over the weekend on where could the money come from you know on here's a piece and here's a piece and trying always to get to three I don't get up to 355 but I get up to a big chunk and then the arpa money could supplement it so just trying to think of ways of getting the most and and so I um with the solar one of the one of the we had enough just so everyone understands we have enough for the Fort River School it's in the Fort River School budget enough to offset all of the energy costs so we just went through that today again in the sustainability this would be in addition and we haven't Quantified it yet but I've always thought it could probably offset at least Crocker's utility electrical utility and we can get at some point we can get a more accurate number is it Crocker and part of the school system you know we don't on how many panels are we buying for how many kilowatt hours but thinking about it as offsetting costs and we just went through a budget poll where all over the place saying this is a little bit lower because our solar Fields helped with the Enterprise funds this is lower because our solar Fields help with the electricity I mean that's a direction of a return that keeps giving um that's not one time so I just really think we should be very careful even if I have no say about it I will keep asking the questions about it in terms of making really wise choices in terms of return and I think of an investment in a return mainly with solar because it's not just you you spend it and it's gone it keeps giving back to you so I'm I'm finished there but I just think there are choices um and and so the more we're careful about them the more we're not causing another problem or or giving up on something that we really wanted to do thank you thanks Kathy Bernie yeah back um back when when there was discussion about artificial turf versus natural Turf and the costs and all that um my sarcasm Gene kicked in and I made the suggestion that if we were going to play on natural grass then we should probably play with natural light uh and I was pleased to hear Kathy just suggests that you could take the lighting out and do it later so there's there's a theme here I guess um I I'm always concerned about using onetime only money for any kind of ongoing operation um and I think it falls to Paul to do a upside downside assessment of each choice that he's considered um for funding the $355,000 which I firmly believe should be a one-time only gift uh I heard from several members of the school committees uh Regional school committee that U uh you know we we need this head we need to to fix this we need to Band-Aid this because we'll fix it in a year well I I don't trust that it'll be fixed any year because it's a difficult problem uh and it's one that's going to have to be solved I think in the methodology that Andy described where you're going to have to really go to like some kind of zerob based budgeting e effort and uh kind of take things apart um and I do want people to um not discount the prospect of a $15 million bill for fixing the library maybe not all at once but it it will it's likely will be there and I don't want people to Discount our bond rating we haven't bonded for the elementary school yet we haven't bonded for the fire department we haven't bonded for uh the DPW facility we haven't we do some mini bonds every year to uh pay for Capital um that to jeopardize that rating um is analogous to the analogous to the solar thing I mean if you knock the solar out you're going to lose uh electricity savings going forward if we jeopardize our bond rating uh we're going to pay an interest costs going forward for the next three decades thanks thanks Bernie uh anyone else uh Council hanii yeah I I want to follow up um and and here from the Acting Superintendent or interim superintendent and our school committee members um I in some sense I agree with Andy of no matter what we do this year next year the school committee needs to do their in some sense needs to present their budget differently because it is the way it's presented is much different from the way the towns present their budget um Paul gets a number of what the town can afford and he fits his budget into that number the schools on the other hand decide what they want and then say Oh but if the town can only afford this here's what we have to cut it's a very at least that's how it appears from my chair as to how that budget is presented and that creates a lot of tension that we don't see in a um in the municipal budget although what did we just hear in the first hour of our Municipal budget discussion there's not enough Staffing in our municipality departments to do what we might be needing to do and we're having to make hard choices um but what I'm hearing from the school committee is it would become part of the base and the other towns just voted it as part of the base well yes and no um and that's that's why I think we can't not talk about the base number that's where I disagree with Andy because what we just heard from school committee members is it just became part of the base and that's what level services will be starting from and then we'll see these Cuts but when the other towns have voted to pay for that 2% out of their savings which my understanding is they have I don't understand how the school committee can say it's now part of the base when it's not part of the recurring Revenue funding and that's where we're looking at if amorist funds this extra 2% and 355 a 2 and a half% increase from 4% takes us to that 355 plus a little bit more because we can't just dump that 355 that we used say arpa funds for into the the next year's 2 and a half% increase because it's not there in our operating budget this year even even if we fund it that's where Bernie's comment of it needs to be a gift is but if you take it as well if ammer funds it at 6% that's where Amor's 2 and a half% increase starts next year we don't have that anywhere in our operating budget to begin with to work it into the next year and so I think some of us are struggling with not just how do we find it this year and if we pay for for out of one-time funds we're struggling with what is the school committee going to come to us next year when they present a budget that has based their assessment and their level services on a number that isn't sustainable to begin with because it was paid for out of savings this year and then when they say oh but we have to cut 20 or 30 positions we can't do that that's that's where to me that rubber hits the road of is this really a request for one one year and I'm I keep hearing in some sense different things from different people of how would we pay for it next year which which gives me pause of even using onetime funds this year to pay for it because I feel like when the FY 26 budget comes in we're going to be told well we can't cut those positions and well you funded it last year but we if we fund it this year out of one-time funds we haven't really funded it for more than one year and so I don't see how we can then consider it part of quote level Services going on or what the not not necessarily level services but but part of what the town should be able to afford a 2 and a half% increase on in the next year and so I really do want to hear more from the school committee and the superintendent on whether there's been conversations with the incoming superintendent on how to deal with this what the plans are um even if they're just conversations at this point um what will we be facing in FY 26 in terms of what does the school committee expect us to potentially increase from our payments each year um are are we looking at an increase from that 6% budget of two and is it expected to be 2 and a half percent from that 6% if we pass it or is it expected to be two and a half from the 4% that the towns have built into their current operating budget versus the 6% that 2% of it's not built into recurring funds I know it's not very clear but that's where I'm struggling Andy I know you have your hand up but I'm gonna give Doug the opportunity to respond yeah I I'll just share a couple things first and foremost I think part of why we've we've presented our budget the way we have over the years is is partly due to the fact that um our employees work on the on a hard fcal year actually a hard school year basis and so in our contracts we have particular notice requirements based on that um whereas with with Town staff it's a little different and that's not better or worse it's just the nature of the beast but we have notification requirements that we have of whether people have or don't have an employment with us um in our teaching contract in particular we have to let people know you know by the 15th of April about whether or not we think they have a position for the coming year and so we tend to operate from from that mode so I think that's part of why we presented you know uh from a level Services kind of mindset um which is different than than um in the town if if we did it more like the town where it's like all here's how much money uh and we fit within that you know we're still gonna have a conversation about what are the reductions in Staffing because we're going to have to notify people about those reductions in Staffing and that's going to matter a lot to um what does or doesn't happen and what does that change with regard to what we offer as a program of studies and that sort of thing so it we kind of end in the same place it's a little uh bit of semantics in some respects the other thing I'll say is just I I want to retune people's mindset a little bit about you know talking about a base um and it's not to be disingenuous at all because I think that we we you know we put in guardrails in our assessment method over the last few years because we tend to have our assessments grow more greater at a greater Pace than than than our other revenues that come into our budget so we have Chapter 70 and you know reasonable transportation and uh you know reimbursement for for charter schools and and and Medicaid reimbursement we have different sources of funds and most of those have held pretty flat but if um if for example we suddenly but what I want to keep in mind is that even with a five-year averaging that we do of minimum local contributions and enrollment you can have pretty significant changes in your assessment based on just that alone um so you're going to have you know is you know when you start looking at the sort of your percentage of the bill um you know we take the total cost of what we think we're going to need to do next year and we could do that from a zero based budgeting standpoint or some other mechanism to sort of come up with a number we're going to subtract out the other sources of fund like Chapter 70 and that for an amount to be assessed to the four towns uh and our assessment method divies that up a certain way we've used a base of the previous year as a frame to limit that because that's the way most other budgets are are derived however um you know we could use something else but also just note that that even with fiveyear averaging uh we can we can still have notable swings in in the sort of percentage piece that that any given Town owns in a particular year so even with fiveyear averaging I've seen pelum have a plus three% or plus four perc in their piece from an independent of ultimate bound of of total to be assessed just as a percentage of the total to be uh owned by that by that community and Amber TS to have a lot smaller swings because we're much bigger um but nonetheless we can still have uh significant changes by virtue of significant changes eqv other things the state does so it it's it's not as though the assessed amounts to each are as fixed as they seem so it's not quite the same of of sitting with a flat amount that we then build from it's really an amount that we are estimating we need to be funded by the towns we divvy that up based on our assessment methodology um and and then you know and then we compare that to you know what's what's happening year-over-year because that's a frame uh of reference that's common to all all four communities um but I think that you know U one of the reasons we don't do the pure statutory method is because the volatility from one year to the next is really kind of high even higher uh you know with the with a five-year averaging method that we use for both students and for uh minimum local contributions we can see swings of the 3% range for given Community with with um with the pure statutory method it can be even more extreme than that um and you have communities you know much smaller districts than ours or or two District you know two Town districts they will sometimes have a 10 or 12% increase in one year to the next from a pure statory method um and even though the total budget itself may not go up that much so we can have small increases in in the amount to be assessed and yet an individual town can take a huge hit depending on the assessment method so I just want to have that be part of the context of conversation um to understand that there are it's it's not purely from a base number and then plus X percent it's really an assessment method that devies of an amount we're trying to to parse amongst all four towns I hope that's helpful as far as just explaining some of the context thank you Doug Andy yeah I appreciate actually that the order you put it in because I guess I had one question that goes back to Doug again and that is I'm not sure that I understood where the timing of the budget process and need for layoffs fits in with the development of the budget because budgets are developed earlier in the year and the presentation of the budget in the work of the four toown meetings has developed in much earlier Pace working towards town meetings so the layoff notice date really doesn't seem to fit in with the process or the question of why it would be um inappropriate at this point to really take a fundamental long-term look at the funding of our schools and you know I look across the river at our friends in Northampton and what they're going through right now and Northampton um has had a much better um track record I think in some ways and certainly East Hampton has of thinking through a long-term plan for schools that they've been able to do because they are single communities supporting their school but um as a region why is it so much more difficult for the region the other thing is that uh brid Bridget earlier had uh um said well gee we're about to enter the conference committee process in the legislature and there's hope that we're going to see um some increases that will come from more Regional School fund uh small small school funding so and uh the of course we're looking at what's going to happen in the dollar level for Chapter 70 those revenues for the region go to the region they don't go to the towns and um so you know we certainly aren't turning around and saying Hey give some of the money back to us um but um it isn't um it isn't our it isn't helping us other than what we're going to get from um increased Chapter 70 that will allow us to do um to have a little bit more flexib ability when we talk about um the elementary school and the budget in general and we have generally not separated out the um funding that comes from Chapter 70 from other funding because in the end the town gives so much more to education than uh we are required to by the state we're so much above the uh minimum requirement that it is an irrelevant number um and uh so I think that we really have to U cheer on the process in Boston that'll happen do our best to provide comments but not um think that it is in any way linked to a difficult decision that we have to make Doug did you want to respond yeah I just quick quick uh additional thing I would talk about with regard to to the sort of notification so you know when we met as a as four towns in February and we did that before the the sort of public hearing process for the regional budget um while we didn't have specifics of what would be cut we did have and tried to have as accurately as we could um some estimate of the FTE reduction that we' need to do to to be at that 4% which is where we had had conversations when we met in December so um I think in in in other years we've we've had the the hard conversation about what what's at risk uh in those in those sort of January and February uh four towns meeting I think that while we weren't specific you know the writing was on the wall with regard to the FTE that were at risk um when you start talking about 567 FTE and and this is on all of us for not you know sort of recognizing the sort of impact it you know it's going to be programming that people care about deeply and so I think that it behooves all of us in we when we're meeting in even December you know we had rough estimates then but they were they were much rougher and and fortunately uh got smaller over time but but um you know we need to be aware of that sort of order of magnitude without the specifics because I think it it does dictate to us uh the sort of kinds of changes that that are at risk in those but I that's not to disagree with with Andy's point about the the idea of being more uh systematic and and longer range thinking about you know sort of uh how we how we think about our our needs and and our programming and what we we're going to maintain regardless you know so I've been thinking about that a lot recently as well and thinking about how do we be more uh clear about what our uh objectives are long term how do the uh Financial picture fit within that how do we maintain that over time given the pressures that we've we've talked about this year in particular but just want to mention those those couple of things to to share a little bit and and and uh and remind us about you know sort of even even as early as February when we were talking about you know FD reductions we didn't know which ones but in some ways it doesn't matter because it's a it's going to be stuff that's pretty important when you start talking about five six seven staff that are teaching staff so um I just want to have us all keep that in mind as we as we look at these things thank you Doug uh Bridget sure so so I'm you all know I'm pretty new school committee member and so I went to Statewide training and they had the Statewide budget person come in and I just wanted to share what she said she said that the level Services budget was the best practice for school committees and that it was best practice because we have a legal responsibility to balance the educational quality and the fiscal responsibility elements of our position and because we report directly to the voters it's important that we're transparent because when someone shows up next year and teacher X or program y or thing Z is missing what happens is we're breaking trust with the community and the sort of Voters and so thus that's the reasoning behind the level Services budget I have to look into the other types of budgeting to even know the pros and cons of those at that sort but I just wanted to share that with you because that was new information for me of how they do it and the reasoning for why they do it and then the second thing I wanted to say is we're we're overdue for our school Improvement plans but in um our new super mentioned in her interview that if she was looking at budget cuts that her approach would be to look at the school Improvement plans align the educational data in the schools to see where what programs we have are being most successful which are not and how are those aligning with our educational goals that we have there in the school Improvement plans so it would be really sort of a building by building process of looking at where are there some efficiencies where do we need to make the case for more spending Etc to do well and reach those goals under the school Improvement plans and it looks like Doug probably has something to say about those he's leaning forward okay uh any other comments I think our time is up um I will entertain a motion to adjourn moved second second okay thanks all right uh motion to adjourn is on the floor I'm an i Bernie yes uh Mandy uh councelor hanii I Andy all right Alicia yes Matt support I think that's everyone all right it's unanimous oh Kathy sorry all right it's that's everyone everyone uh thank you very much and uh we'll meet again on Friday um also um what we're going to do on Friday is review what we have of the report so uh if you can get your sections to me that would be great um I recognize that Alicia for example your stuff is gonna be on on the do on the agenda for for Friday so you obviously can't write up write anything up but we do need to uh to try to get this going as fast as we can so again thank you very much everyone and we will see you on Friday thank you