e e e e call the charter review meeting to order commissioner Smith you want to give us the prayer and pledge please sir father to come once again thank you for your many blessings thank you God for this opportunity Serv this we ask now for your guidance father we take in the last part of the review that you would lead guide and direct all that we shall do will be pleasing and acceptable and be for the benefit of the citizens of a this we ask in Jesus name amen amen algi to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all made it with time to spare well in theory this should be a quick one today but we may suffice to have extra time to let our idle Minds wander onto other topics but we're covering articles five and six these are the last two articles of the charter and it is not that they are inconsequential it is just that at least as far as I can see there's nothing that needs to be changed that doesn't mean there won't be something that you or members of the public won't want to change and so that's up to you guys to tell me and then I'll make the changes accordingly uh but you should have in front of you the memo regarding articles uh five and six plus a version of updated version of the all proposed changes document that takes us all the way through four um five and six obviously will be added after today um if we look at article 5.1 which I believe should be right there uh this was simply saying that the charter may be amended pursuant to home rule Powers which is what we're using here in the municipal home rulle Powers Act um and there's really nothing to change there this is what we do this is what we have done there's already the power of initiative to amend the charter by the citizens if they choose so there's nothing to add there they have that power already um any questions on 501 okay seeing none 502 is the oath of officers uh which is essentially the oath you take when you are uh elected and sworn or reworn if you reelected um and again and nothing there to change unless there's something that you want to discuss okay section 5.03 is budget adoption uh the city council uh shall adopt an annual budget that's how it currently reads um it would be changed only to change the word council to commission if that's what you guys want to do um so there's nothing to discuss but that that would be consistent with the changes we've made to change the name of the body as a whole to be consistent with the fact that you were Commissioners and the this will be called the city commission uh number 5.04 the annual audit we would have to do that with or without this provision but there's no need to take it out we have an annual audit we will have one even if this is not here there's no need to change it on 505 which I actually got a call from the Press today is this new and of course the answer is no it's not new and we've had it in our Charter uh it is not in every Charter uh but it gives citizens rights to bring to us legislation by initiative if they have a petition circulated with enough signatures and all the things that go along with that the only change here was again to change the word council to commission which is what you see in the how it readall changes thereafter any questions about this all right and then article six is a whole lot lot of C housekeeping but we'll go through it all just for the benefit of you all in case there's anything uh 601 is a repeal of former Charter Provisions now this comes from the last time there was uh done amendments on this basically saying that we're repealing everything that existed before this this past Amendment there's no need to take it out or change it it's simply a historical provision based on what happened in the past 602 is a similar thing ordinance preserved meaning that uh anything that was in full force and effect on the date of the charter as long as it's not inconsistent with the charter was still in effect so again historical but no need to change 603 let me see yeah I got to get that 603 City official continuation and office uh all elected City officials shall retain their respective positions until expiration of their current terms of office again consistent with Florida law whether you change it or don't change it this is the way it works um the uh 604 is pending matters no rights claims actions contracts taxes or legal administrative proceedings existing on the effective date of the Charter and involving the city shall be affected meaning if there was any pending claims lawsuits and so forth they didn't go away when the charter was adopted historical but no need to change or take it out and then last uh or not last 605 let me go keep up with here uh provision for referendum form of ballots this is consistent with state law if it weren't here it would still be the same that is you have the amendment proposing the amendment and then yes or no for rejection this is how it was done for this specific election adopting this Charter it is historical in nature it doesn't have any effect on anything that we're doing now but it also is consistent with how we will do the ballot and as youve as you will see the ordinance when it comes time for that and then last is 606 and 607 the effective date which is self-explanatory uh that was October 1 of 1993 excuse me and 607 which is very standard language severability if anything in the charter is otherwise legal illegal it doesn't screw up the rest of the charter so as you can see all of the language in articles 5 and six some of it historical in nature none of it requiring change um if there was anything you wanted to add any novel ideas you wanted to bring to the table whether you bring them now or when we get to the parking lot which is I think our next meeting which is in April do you know the date is it 8th fifth I can't remember I remember we said it last time I just can't remember what it what it is April what thought it was on the third the meeting yeah I I know it's in April and I wrote it down but I just can't remember left off of my head so the third yeah so that's where that would be in terms of before I speak further is any questions any of this stuff in five and six okay so the only thing that my notes reflect that are in the parking lot meaning to be decided had to do with how we conduct elections and if you look at the all proposed ch changes document uh I marked that as section uh 4.04 schedule of notice of Elections you'll recall that as it reads now you have elections in December which you haven't had for a long time um and there are issues we might want to take care of in that you you sent us that in an email no I sent it to the city back on the end of February and uh and it sent did you send it to us no it's supposed to be posted I was understanding it was posted on the website that's or however yall get them I don't know how you get agendas but why would it be I I see it posted on the website but why wasn't it sent to us individually so I have to go on the website to look for it the answer is I don't know because I don't know how agendas are done if that's what I'm supposed to do I'm happy to do it but what I've done up until now is I've sent them to the city administrator and then I it's magic after that I I don't know how it gets to you guys well to confirm too you've sent it to us some of these separately to us in previous times but you're specifically talking about the the your updates the the updates that we've got to kind of that Master form MH so do you have we don't have that and that's not posted unfortunately the all the this one that says all changes you don't have this no no okay the last one we received was on February 11th and quite honestly we've had we've had this email conversation at nauseum we've we've had this conversation many times I don't understand what the disconnect is on us getting these change documents so do you have it right now I'll make I'll make some just I'm sorry why you hand that to me I'll go make five copies okay so so let me we have discussed it but let me explain my understanding okay so if if this is on me okay but my understanding is if any of you ask me an email question and I respond to it I copy everybody which is what I've done from the moment that's been the case but anytime I provide research to the city or Vis something that's going on the agenda as far as I know that's supposed to be handled in administration because I don't do the agenda but if that's not what I'm supposed to do you are correct but um we shouldn't have to go on the website to look for it it should be sent to each of us individually and that's what I was looking for I was looking for your response and um Mr vavi have you sent us it is he here exactly so I think I think the disconnect is coming from it's an Administration level I don't think it's a it's not you you didn't realize we didn't get it yeah I thought you would have had it I think that's the point today I learned that it was on the website but still we we don't have the all all changes and that should have been um published for our our residents to see as well and interestingly enough I mean I can show you the email I it was requested of me on the 28th I gave it to the administrator via email on the 29th I hear you yeah so I I don't I I assumed y'all had it had it in plenty of time yeah because I kind of did ask I said have we heard from from Cliff well yeah and that's cuz I sent you an email on whatever Daye well saying where's it at and yeah so the all changes just were never uploaded okay so we're getting it now he's going to make the copies so so at any rate but anyway I can just tell you the section we will be talking about there in the in the upcoming um parking lot meeting if you will is section 4.0 something 4 point you didn't get it well wait a minute he's got the copy but it has to do with elections and when they're scheduled and everything associated with that so for the next meeting and we can add to it whatever else you want to put in the parking lot including things we haven't discussed at all but that's what I would need you to focus on is where do you want to go with that because the last time we kind of discussed it you know do we want to be in March do we want to be in November do we wanna I mean right now we're in December which nobody apparently wanted uh and would require a special election time and so forth um but any other issues related to that is what we need to get so I can put it the way you want it on the on the actual ballot language okay we'll wait for the all changes document to get to us and then be able to review it from there I would assume I might be able to e if you all have the ability to get emails up there yes well I'll see how fast I can EMA email it to you because I I can pull it up on my phone without too much difficulty luckily I remember the date it was sent so it's easy to find it and the frustration you're uh dealing with right now from us we've been having a lot of email issues recently on stuff that was never forwarded to us even though it was addressed to us so having that issue pretty consistently recently no problem okay okay AAL changes was sent February 29th and I'm forwarding it right now to theas there we go okay bucker thank you okay and okay A Smith okay okay okay thank you and be aw okay all right I just hit the send button so hopefully yall will also have an email copy but at any rate so back to the all changes document excuse me the only thing that I have on my list that is in the parking lot officially from you all is 4.04 schedule a notice of election and that is I said with was about the December date which currently exists in the charter versus what we want it to be there was discussion about do we want it to be March do we want it to be November I it we we that's what the parking lot's for not only for y'all to make up your minds but also to hear more from the public and you can hear more from them today um I can we can talk about any of that stuff now or I can take my seat and you can hear from the public now that's your choice well why we hear from the public first then we have you come back up okay oh here it is who who thank you I did receive it who wants to come up speak Mr mckm is this still the same the one that you gave us on January 10th I this one that you had presented is is that still the same okay thank you I just want to make sure good evening Albert McKim 3603 golden gem road with a strong may form a government every other meeting we come into Chambers and we find that we are in a situation where neither the public nor the Commissioners have been made aware of information that they should have been whether or not it's at an administrative level it's not satisfactory uh I don't see that it's right that we have a a system whereby our commissioners are being disenfranchised by the type of government that we have that they don't get information if they don't have the information we can't ask questions if we don't get it so we really need to address the fact that irrespective of what form of government we have that there's there's something in the charter that allows the citizens much more access to speaking in public because as it stands just now the mayor has rejected times for us to put things on the agenda and there's nothing we can do about it we get three or four minutes of public comment to make our Point thank [Music] you you can almost see me just part of my face there's a there's a button Jack it's right in front of you it's on the side side right in front of you right here can you show them how to lower that see the buttons here up and down so you just hit it wherever you want it to be there you are thank you commission Mr Mayor uh my name is Jack Douglas I live at 2149 Eagles Rest Drive here in Apopka I served 25 years as the uh Finance director and City administrator here in Apopka and uh I thank the city for all the opportunities they provided me during that 25 years um you have a copy of the letter that I that I sent in January I do and I wanted to only spend just a few minutes to kind of go over that and then then maybe pull it all together at the end if I could um there was two issues that came up uh that I was aware of and one was was employment contracts uh in most cities there's only one Employment contract and that's with your city administrator or your city manager uh so um what happened was the city decided they're going to give contracts to all the department heads and including a couple of non-department heads and that caused a lot of problems financially for the city uh so I think the council needs to correct that problem whether it's through the charter or asking the uh City attorney to look at it and incorporate it either in the uh uh purchasing policy or the Personnel policies and procedures that would exclude any contract any employment contract from being valid unless it came to the city council and was approved by the majority of the city council um this the second thing is is simply um the relationship between the mayor and the council when it comes to the department Edge how do you deal with those and how do you deal with the charter officers and I think that needs to be cleared up and it may and it may be in the new languages that is produced here if we go to a city management form of government uh that that works its way out as part of a city manager form of government uh Charter but if we stay with a strong mayor form of government we need to clarify that and get it straight so that in future councils whether you're on it or not they know exactly how it works and is personally I believe that not only the charter officers but department heads should be reviewed by the council as a whole and approved by the council as a whole and terminated as a whole by the majority of the council um term limits um Mr Mayor You' worked on term limits uh pretty much your your entire career and uh so you know how it works um city council this city council does not have term limits and uh my recommendation is that you go to term limits uh I my suggestion is three terms that's 12 years and I think that's sufficient enough to get the job done that that the citizens put before you to do now I know that's a an issue because some of yall were elected or all of y'all been elected without having term limits so subjecting you to term limits that are retroactive back um probably is not a good thing so I recommend that if you do go with term limits you say it starts the day that that the uh that the public approved term limits that means that if you already have two two terms you get three more all right if you're the mayor you got two terms you get three more and over the time that will work itself out and the city will be under term limits with just three terms if you understand what I'm saying uh in reference to districting I believe that u i don't believe there's a need for districting right this minute but I do think the council needs to look at the impact of districting how they would proceed with uh developing the different districts and uh and when that implementation would take place uh but I don't I don't think it's needed right now but I think you need to be aware that it's going to be needed pretty soon the way the city is growing to ensure there's equal uh representation throughout the city uh the last one is city manager former government uh I'm all four uh city manager former government and the reason I am I've worked under both I worked under John L with a strong maror former government I worked under uh the city of Orlando uh where had uh a strong mayor form of government and I've worked for the cities of Largo and uh Largo is a city manager former government um my my opinion is that a city manager former government produces the best solutions to implementing the policies of the C and the reason that is is that that person is um professionally trained um usually has multiple years of experience doing a city manager for of government or at least an assistant city manager and uh so that so the uh they have exposure to all the disciplines that the uh that the City offers police fire uh water sewer garbage uh planning zoning just a multitude of different complex issues all in one area um whereas if you hire if it's done in a mayor form of government whoever runs for mayor is really being voted in as a popularity vote they they really don't have any experience with running a city now it may they may learn based on the number of years that they they're mayor um but that transition um could be very difficult for that mayor and it could be very difficult for all the staff when they're trying to continue on providing the services to the citizens all right that's the summary of I got five seconds your 5 Seconds was a long time ago all right good uh just to bring it all together is that you know it's the citizens that that that decide how the charter should be and it's your responsibility and think back to when you were running for office for the first time you were saying to yourself I'm going to make a difference I'm going to make a difference so that the public feels like they're part of the city and there is no way you can do that as as the charter would go unless you bring it back to the citizens to vote so you need to be very aware that you may not agree you may not like for example the former government you might you might want to stay with the strong M former government but you're if you vote not to do that you're taking away that vote from the public and the public should have the right to vote that's on all the issues where it's turn limits uh city manager form a government um no matter what you come up with make sure the citizens get their opportunity thank you very much okay anybody else this as slow as it goes I'm shorter than Jack um you already have copies of my opinion I sent it to you a couple weeks ago or a month ago my uh suggestion is a lot along the lines of of Jacks and um uh Mr chorin we go back to the days of teaching EG together and and using titles um I believe that we should have a um manager form where you have a trained professional who knows all the fields and has had experience in it they know all the Departments and they know the ins and outs of running the city that they've been trained in and have worked in it professionally that they don't just come in from running a political um program and getting in and maybe they were in Floral Design or maybe they were an act teacher or maybe they were an insurance agent and in a small business and suddenly they're or a college student and suddenly they're a mayor um this is somebody who knows and are experienced and educated in the different fields and know the laws and they have Personnel training and because we don't know who's going to be elected mayor every term and what their experience is we get them in here and they're trained then the Commissioners and then the method of of selecting a mayor can be various manners it could be elected among the counil they can pick the mayor each year or you can have someone that actually runs for the honorary title of Mayor to go around and kiss babies and and pass out keys to the city and run the meetings and I also suggest that we do three threeyear terms and have a gap in between before they can run again so that they have a Hiatus and that was all in writing to you and I think that we can have um the other points that I made to you were in writing um and they were on my um letter to the editor and the voice of popka we need to look through each of these chapters and see how they were um laid out we have a lot of there's some really old old stuff at the beginning of the charter that needs to be removed and uh I believe I I made mention of that in there where it's just really old old garbage that needs to be taken out and of course changing you to commission and Commissioners but mainly um and and then also going to not December and then falsely doing it in March we could save a lot of money by holding the election in November and I have been putting that forward since I very first came to Apopka and making sure that we save a great deal of money uh by having the election when the other elections go on thank you who else Eric mock 20 439 bird viiew Drive um I'm going to speak specifically um in regards to the um conversation about the date of the election um I agreed last meeting with commissioner Becker when he brought up the um thought process that if you wanted to work to have the greatest number of individuals in engagement during an election then it would kind of make sense to do that in November and I agreed with that then and I still agree with that because I think that that essentially tends to provide the opportunity for the most engagement um there are other times of the year obviously that you can hold elections but if it were held in November that's kind of what we have nationally used for elections and I think that that would have the most engagement good afternoon mayor Commissioners everyone in the rightful place Nikki Maguire um I I have nothing on the political side first I want to say thank you guys for doing this Workshop appreciate that we're the public get to come and be part of it um you guys make me know that politics is not for me so don't worry your jobs are safe up there I'm never going to be running for your office my question is after it's great that we broke it up into the different Charter review meetings how much time are we going to get to be able to view the full package with all the changes before we have to vote on it at the at an election are we going to have how much time we going to have because it will be nice breaking it down like this is good to make the individual decisions but it will be nice to see the complete package to know what we vot in on yeah okay y any anybody else public a comment Roger back at 7 West Main Street um I just wanted to make sure on record um I guess I don't know if this ever come back to us or not but um from what I've heard tonight I do believe November election time frame would be best for the city as far as um from election point of view um and I guess on this next item kind of biased because my background as far as schooling um was pretty much in urban planning and actually becoming a city manager so the city manager former government feel would be best suited for our city moving forward um there's going to be a a ly of things that come our way with the growth that we're going going to be possibly Happ in the future so I think someone in that position that can look at different areas sectors um seeing trends that take place that'll be behoove us I believe to move to that particular type of foreign government and then third of all the term limits I think that is definitely something that should be implemented um you know it was great that we had m for all those years but that has it pluses and minuses and I think at this point in time with what we're going to possibly have in the future having term limits may be appropriate whether it's eight years 12 years I think I've heard nine years but I think at some point that should be instituted as far as you know should it be and I guess I'm really saying as far as consecutive um I'm not saying that you should not be a to run again but um at least give a term limit maybe three years off four years off off and didn't have another opportunity at it but I just want to make sure I'm more Rec for that thank you anybody else John Cen 593 usler Road you're talking about moving the elections from where it is now the reason it's there is because we had a national election that we had people outside until 10:00 at night trying to vote when it comes time to count the votes federal state and local came in last local wasn't decided until the next day so the state came along with the with your uh election people and changed it and said hey you know what take the locals out put them somewhere else so that's what the local governments did the local election Commissioners changed when we met but the State of Florida helped it along the way okay with the going to a manager's position and you're all talking about that my question in the charter and the people need to know and Mr Douglas was here as a manager when I came in okay the question is how much do you pay how much are we going to get when you you go in your Charter is it going to be like when we do they do the president the college we have no idea who it is that the governor is picked until oh you know what this guy here from Nebraska he's over UF now because they don't open it up to the public if you're going to put it in there then in the charter say the top five individuals must come before the city council and the public to be interviewed not a little room all by themselves thank you okay is that is that everybody okay Cliff all right so the first thing I'm going to do is answer the question which was about the timing of when the uh referendum initiative will come back to the voters to take a look at the final picture so what that looks like is between now and June when we must submit to the supervisor of elections our proposed ballot initiative based on our ordinance which has yet to be adopted uh it will be finalized so by June we'll have a finalized document of some kind submitting some a level of questions to the voters we haven't decided on what those are going to be yet but you all know what's on the table once that's done depending on when you direct the election to occur and I assume it would be in November there will be at least from June until November if it is indeed November for any citizen to read what we have educate themselves ask questions uh even formal committee to be for or against certain amendments which happens um maybe by a recent press you know that matland one of the Cities I represent has a library referendum on the ballot and some group and yet yet unknown has filed a pack called Maitland's Folly opposing the uh referendum for the new library and so there's plenty of time to do all of that and let the citizens know what's on the ballot so that's the answer to that question in terms of the other things uh I wrote down the comments of Mr Douglas that seem to be echoed by others and as to term limits and how they're adopted if you choose to put those on the ballot we can have that discussion one of the things that I heard suggested for example is three terms uh in a space in between before someone could run again that that's okay again that I have no press preference in that issue wouldn't because it's all all a matter of what you want it's not about what's legal but I would tell you the one thing that is legal versus not legal is it has to as Mr Douglas suggested be prospective not looking in the rearview mirror whenever you got elected there were no term limits so if term limits are being imposed it has to be on a go forward basis it can't well you've already served for two so you're out that's not how that works so the reason why that is is constitutionally the state and the the the federal courts have determined that you have as weird as this may sound a property right in the elected offices you actually hold so they're entitled to constitutional due process to get you in to get you out and so forth so if there wasn't one when you got in in order to impose one it can affect what you've already done so that's the answer to that question um again I can make Arguments for or against Council manager strong mayor because there are arguments on both sides but I'm not advocating for any of those so I I'm here to answer questions that you want to cover that and in terms of employment contracts um other factors that have been said well we don't change the form of government but we just change how people are hired or not hired that's also an option it would sort of be a hybrid if you tried to keep a strong mayor but changed that aspect but could you do it there's nothing that says you can't do it so that's on the table if you want it to be on the table um but with that I'm open for the suggestions uh and if there are then let's I want to talk a little bit about what the U parking lot might look like when we come to it on the third any questions can I can I just kind of go over so so what I'm getting from the public is they are interested in in other words to have a choice to be able to say to to allow them to choose whether they want to continue with strong mayor or have the choice of having a city manager city manager form of government that seems to be what I I'm getting um also term limits is is kind of the consensus for most that did come up and the other thing was changing the uh March election into November but now we talked about how in December we had some elections so what happens if you have a runoff in November then we we're back to a no a December election well it's not exactly that what we're changing is the charter which says all of our elections are in December that's what the charter requires but we haven't been doing that yeah and so no matter what's going on unless we're going to have December elections that should be changed although the voters have the ultimate say right now we are inconsistent with the charter and how we're having elections because the charter says 100% December so assuming that the voters support some other date than December the question is when and there are opt there are options there is the March option there is the November option and depending on how you want to do it you could have special elections at a DAT of your choosing as long as you're willing to pay for those as well um so those are all things that are up to you and uh as to what you want to put before them I it sounds like to me the decision will be do you want to keep trying to do March or which when a lot of local governments do their elections in March or do you want to move to November which as people have noted that's where a lot of traditional elections are held and you might have a bigger turnout again it's it's not a thing for me to prefer or advocate for I just need to know what to write okay um okay now the again let me I guess if it's okay mayor I'll talk about the upcoming meeting this is the parking lot and right now as I mentioned the only issue we have in it but it covers a lot of ground because it would cover potentially term limits it would cover when the elections are going to be held it would cover if there's going to be term limits put on the ballot what are we going to suggest they be is it going to be some suggested three threeyear terms with some Gap in between a term limited candidate and the next time that person can run and if so how long is the gap some places that have term limits say it's one year some people say it's one term some say it's one election cycle and there's a difference between a year and an election cycle because of qualifying so a year year is not the same a calendar year as an election cycle because if you're Miss qualifying you're already passed the year in terms of when you can come back around so those things are things that we will discuss and you will direct me as to what you want to see in that but other than that issues that have been brought out but not advocated for as to you to tell me hey I'd like to see this or that include as Mr Douglas said districting I think his words were essentially check into it okay that's if that's going to happen it's a much bigger deal than just putting into the charter because here's what that looks like if you have any appetite for it you first need to study how the districts will be broken down and in a city the size of a poka uh there would be a need to look at for example a racial element to make sure that there's adequate representation constitutionally and how does that draw the Lines within the city I don't know but typically you hire an expert to help you do and draw those lines I don't know if Mr Nelson mayor Nelson was that when he was in the legislature but it's or in the in the uh County but it's a big deal it's not something that's done overnight and if that's the direction you give for example at the next meeting the next thing would be to hire somebody to help start drawing those districts and what they would look like um the pros and cons of districts if you all run at large is that what it is now yes if it's if you all run at large then everybody votes for everybody and voters like to vote however if you say well we're going to go to districts you go from having five votes to one vote for your commissioner unless the mayor's position stays at large whether it's strong mayor or not strong mayor which is also something done so even in Council manager form of government sometimes the mayor position even though it's a weak mayor um is at large and then the district position is Li to the district so you go from having a maximum minimum of five votes everybody gets to vote for everybody and against whoever they want to vote for to I get to vote for the person in my district only and whoever sits in the mayor's chair and that's important because it means people may say wait a minute I didn't know I was going to lose a voting right here can can I play that one out because it's my understanding there's other municipalities that they have districts but in the sense that only one candidate or only one elected official can be from that one District but yet it's still an it's a Citywide election uh you excuse me you could do that excuse me but the problem is if you do it that way what you run the risk of is an other districts keeping you from having the representation that you want in your district for other reasons political or otherwise so in a pure District system the idea is you are actually getting the representative in your District that you want not that three districts away voted for because they were teamed up with some candidate that that District liked so again can you do it yes does it have negatives it does so districting was one the other one there were two areas of employment one was uh department heads and and they suggestion was Council approval that's a part of whether you are Council manager or whether you are strong mayor but as I've suggested if you wanted to do a hybrid there's a possibility again assuming the citizen supported it the other one was employment contracts well employment contracts I assume that Mr Douglas and others meant contracts of any kind because I'm not on an employment contract but I'm a contractor for the city so no no what he's talking about is before they left they got a 20we severance severance package is what he was talking about right if that's the case then then how the City attorney is hired regardless of inhouse or as a contractor or whatever you want to call it it it it's it's whatever you want it to be a hybrid would be where you still tried to keep a strong mayor who had Direct authority over employees in terms of directing them what to do on a daily basis meeting with the city administrator setting out a path of action for the city but nevertheless when it came to hiring and firing of either the contractor contracted employees or the department heads it would still require a majority of council approval going in or going out that's a hybrid and yes you can do that and if the voter support it then that would be what you had so so on that point can you have you could have conflicting amendments you know let's that would be a perfect example where let's say you you want you want to vote for a strong mayor or manager or you want to have that on the ballot but if you had that on the ballot you still wanted to have the ability for the commission to remove somebody from Office whereas under a city manager form of government that wouldn't be their role that's correct so how do you can can you work out it there is a potential for conflicting questions depending on what you put before them so let's suppose that the the council manager form of government goes on the ballot as a possible option shall we whatever if you leave it the way that is traditionally then the manager hires and fires everybody but him or herself right literally everybody right and the exceptions to that typically there are sometimes one sometimes two if it's one it's usually the city clerk if it's two it's a city clerk and the City attorney whether it's a contractor or an in-house position right and so that would be the traditional Council manager role basically the council controls two or three people attorney Clerk manager and nobody else and can't direct anybody else in the strong mayor form it's the opposite of that as someone mentioned well the mayor comes in they may or may not know anything but that's why you have an administrator even though they can't make final decisions the administrator is there to help the the strong mayor make decisions about this is why we need to do it this way but are there possible problems with both systems there are but in that one there's a potential problem because again in a strong mayor even if the administrator is giving good direction the mayor does not have to follow it and so this is an issue that can come up I haven't seen it but it can happen and so um I think the next issue is what happens if they vote to keep the strong mayor but vote for these limitations well would that be consistent it could be you could have a strong mayor and still say that Council votes on all the contracts Council votes on all the department heads you could do that and those would work together okay when you change that if they vote for Council manager for of government but against those two things and which would be in my judgment an inconsistent result then I would wonder do they even understand how Council manager works because if the coun if the manager can't fire and hire what's it doing and so there's a potential for an inconsistent result but you know the best you can do on that is voter education and that's about as much as you can do because there are unless you put you don't put those things on the ballot at the same time then you're going to have that potential commission Becker yeah I guess just where do we go from here because I mean to that end I mean it's it's the reason why it's the first article it's the form of government and so a lot of things will trickle down um and have consequences based off of that decision but that's in my opinion the most important decision to make well EXC it I guess it would depend at least in part on how you view what's the most important thing is the most important thing the council having authority to hire and fire contracted employees and department heads because you can put those on the ballot and still leave a strong mayor so so this is where I kind of this is where I sort of disagree with some of the folks that say you know not just ratifying but the ability to terminate as a collective Council every single member of senior staff I don't agree with that okay um BEC because that's counter to what a typical org structure would look like I mean that would be akin to a corporate Corporation having managers report at the at the pleasure of the actual board itself which is just not typical hence why I said in the very first presentation it's this creates the cleanest dynamic between an elected seated Council and the person responsible for the day-to-day operations of our staff being the city manager because that one person does have that authority to do the hiring and the firing because their their job is dependent upon the pleasure of this board this elected board because if they're not doing that job properly if they're hiring the wrong people and they're not getting rid of the people that aren't doing the job properly that everybody sees the only recourse is then this Council can say okay thank you city manager your your your employment is no longer needed and we get the next city manager to come into that place yes that's why I think that's the cleanest you know I've worked in plenty of corporate structures and that seems to be the most suited for the reasons why I stay on the very first Workshop that would and theoretically if that were to happen the way that the reason that that works for the places that have Council manager form of government is because the manager then has a very hard decision to make either I fire the employee who has lost favor with the council the majority of council or I get fired and so it it's a it's a substantial incentive to the manager to bend his or her will to the majority of council but it's not absolute and I'll tell you an example where it was not absolute in Mount Dora where I was for 10 years and where our firm is back there now um we had a manager who I won't name was a great manager in terms of his integrity and you'll understand why in a minute um an The Winds of politics blew a new Council got elected they have seven members instead of of five and so four of them basically said to the manager who had literally only been there for three or four months the planning director has to go or you've got to go the planning director did a review said there's no reason for the guy to go and no I'm not going to fire him and then I said okay well you're out of here now I witnessed it I I know the facts and so I understand that that was a political decision which they were absolutely free to make but the point is the manager didn't bend to their will but the planning director ultimately got the the message and left anyway and so both of them were gone because the manager said no I'm not going to do it and that can happen but it's unusual so I think with that type of government um like you just expressed the city manager said no I'm not going to do it he got fired so now there's a void the person that they wanted to fire eventually left but now you're left with no lead ership in between and then they had that's where my concern is then who becomes the leader in that who becomes the one to kind of fill that void until you can get a city manager and that's my concern with city manager much like we have here we had an unexpected vacancy in the administrator position and we found someone to fill the Gap in the P when I say what I'm about to say I am not 100% not advocating for this but to tell you examp that have happened in the county in Lake County when that happened they elevated for a similar a period of time the county attorney who was an employee to also essentially be the manager till they could find a manager so similarly here you could Elevate not me but you could Elevate someone else in the system who whose judgment you trust who then would consult with attorneys me or someone else to try to make sure that they were doing the right thing along the way until you found the per like we are doing right now with Mr vaver Right what we're doing with vck is we've actually elevated someone that was a part-timer to fill a position um I I feel that our form of government with the strong mayor is that we have two leaders we have uh bar who's the interim Chief uh administrator but according to our city Charter he's one of the charter uh officers so I just don't know how his title as an intrum it's not in the charter it's an intrum so it's kind of difficult to determine um you know I I mean that's all we have is is is our interim City Charter uh uh Chief administrator so I just don't understand that you know where does the power come or where does the absolute like who is in charge but in in that situation I mean again we're jumping right into all of the what could happen in a in that scenario I I kind of look at it from the opposite perspective what's the optimal design or the organization of our form of government and then ideally if you have a city manager in place that has succession planning written all over it and if we would have a strategic plan part of strategic plans are management plans and more specifically succession planning and that would be clearly spelled out to say hey I'm a city manager if that city manager should either be terminated incapacitated what Happ have you here's the succession plan the finance director is the next in line for an INF basis until another city manager can be be installed or by committee or what have you but that would have to be worked out but I guess okay I don't I don't want to double click from the conversation of what should be what's what's the most efficient effective form of government that we should be exploring and that and I kind of want to get to that decision point because I think that's really the direction that you're going for is AR we if we're not ready to get to that point here then we're we're wasting your time trying to well we shouldn't be only because of lack of public notice at this meeting but the parking lot is a different matter but clear direction to you correct so I can bring something to you to look at correct um and here's the thing you asked the right question but I'm going to explain it to you the way I think it should be properly explained you said well what is Mr vavrick he's interim well he's interim because you'all stuck that title on him but in fact he has the job of City administrator he's only interim because he's ready to leave as soon as y'all find his replacement but that's why he's interim if you said we would like you to be permanent he'd probably say no but the point is that's your call so whether you imbue the administrator role temporarily on him and call him interim or just call him the man administrator he's got all the Authority Under the charter until you take it away from him or he quits so whoever has that role if it was a suction plan to Mr Becker's point of the vice uh the the head of Finance or if it was a succession plan that said the Public Works director or whatever the police chief I've Seen Fire Chiefs used it's really about leadership and who you trust to keep the ship on course until you find the permanent solution and sometimes the permanent solution is already here we just don't know exactly who that person is at this minute and so while you could have a succession plan that says it will absolutely be this department head it may turn out that that department head in retrospect is not somebody you'd like to have on there so um you'd rather have freedom to pick okay I think this would be a good choice based on we've seen their performance at the podium when they presented items we've heard them speak we understand where their strengths and weaknesses are that's who we need to have and that's sort of what you have now but again either way is fine but you don't necessarily have to change the charter to do that if you op adopt an internal succession plan so that you all know what you're doing because you have that Authority as it sits right now yeah I I don't know that I agree with that I think because if if I look tomorrow if if you know Chuck says I'm gone I'm done you know a succession planning blanch is a great Finance director but she's only been here a year right she wouldn't be the one if I were just looking you know from this my perspective I wouldn't she wouldn't be my pick and that's what I'm trying to say not that she's not qualified but she doesn't know she hadn't been here long enough to know the Departments and and all the you know their in her workings but I hope that was my comments were taken as hypothetical I didn't mean no no no and and I there that's I'm I'm saying that right now you can pick collectively who you think does have this Authority as opposed to well our succession plan says it will be this person and I think that's there's a strength in that because at the time that may come up again you will have seen the people who speak at this Podium you see them every meeting you have seen their strengths their weaknesses are they good speakers How do they present blah blah blah and then you can say you know what they may not be completely ready for the job but here's the most ready person we have and we need to fill that Gap and so and that gives you Freedom whereas if you have a succession plan it may not necessarily be it it turns out exactly the way you thought it would be so I think that what you currently can do is a good method but it's up to you well and and that's the thing I mean I think we get so resigned to the fact that documents are done and then they're put on a shelf and never never change I mean again in my own work strategic plans are looked at on a quarterly basis and there's changes that are needed they're they're made to be changed because exactly to that point if we have a well experienced Finance director that's been here for 10 15 years that knows the city inside and out and that person leaves but yet they were identified that position the finance director is our succession plan step in on an interim basis well if that person leaves in the next coure when you're reviewing that strategic plan you realize hey we've got some some exposure there actually it should be this thing because they're the most tenured person so that that es and flows over over the course of time things that aren't necessarily Charter Charter related absolutely true yeah so anyway um I I not to I'll just kind of say my piece on the the things that we've discussed so far because I you know there's probably three or four things obviously the strong mayor form of government versus city manager I think is something that we should take forward to our voters um the term limits um I've said it in the past couple meetings the four-year three terms seems like a very uh reasonable uh term limit to explore and and put forth to our voters uh the election day in November uh seems like the most logical if for some reason we have to wait till the next day to find out the results of that election if it means we've have so many voter turnout hey I'm willing to wait 24 hours um districting that one's a tough one because again I did like that model of the other cities that I saw where it was District just in the sense of you have one person from a geographic and demographic area within the city but yet still everybody can vote I get what you're saying about people can kind of game game the system but if we if we're challenged with voter turnout as it is anyways and yet then we create districts and within those districts you have even more opportunity for compression in terms of vote turnout um I like the idea of having still the entire city but yet you're kind of curbing this idea of having all Commission from one you know specific area within our city so I just wanted to kind of talk through the the main points commission Smith um well I I've kind of looked at both the strong mayor and city manager former government and I'm still in favor of the strong May former government uh I think our biggest problem or concern is the language that we find in our Charter where it gives the so power to the mayor uh to appoint or to terminate the city manager the City attorney and the city clerk and I think just by clearing up that language would solve the issue that I think is at hand is the driving force behind uh changing our form of government uh I don't think that um the council needs to be hiring department heads uh I think that responsibility need to be left to those individuals that we place in the positions that we have enough confidence in them to do the right thing uh but I think those three positions the city manager the City attorney and the city clerk if we could clarify that language um I think would resolve the issues that we have um and then when we talk about the November elections and we have a greater turnout um the elections that we're having now also has a presidential candidate on the ballot and so therefore it's not costing us anything because we're piggybacking off of that election so I don't see why uh changing going all the way to November uh would make a a great deal of difference um I'm in favor of leaving it at the March election um and then that way we have to have a runoff then we can do that and then we'll absorb that cost at that point uh districts um we're not ready uh for districts at this point because there's no uh easy method by which we can divide the city of apopa into four equal districts and have the same representation for each one of those districts uh and so I I think we're headed in that direction uh we're not there yet um I think over maybe the next four years uh we may be there uh to go in that in that direction and then should we do that at that time um there's a c here I I think that we need to uh look at adding two additional council members uh to the council and that those two be uh at large and have four that will be for districts um to that point just real quick commissioner could you have a population trigger in the ordinance so that you let's say at 70,000 we would add one at large and at 880,000 we would add you you could have a popular trigger that when the city reaches fill in the blank number uh that the city council or the city commission which I assume it will be a commission by then uh will uh is mandated to go to a districting system and to put together a system that is uh constitutional and fairly represents the voters of apka you could put a trigger in that so that even if you don't do it now when you reach 70 80 whatever the number is you want that could be an amendment as well that's the kind of stuff that I don't put in because it's not legally required but if you said this is something we like I could put in the voters could then decide but then it would make it auto it would be automatic then we wouldn't have to to come back put it on the if you put it in as a trigger in the voters vote for it when he gets to that magic number yall have to do it or whoever sitting here has to do it well it would have to be two because we need an art number we couldn't do one okay then okay yeah so it have to be two because we have to have an art number yeah well I I there may be some that have even numbers but I'm sure that's that's rough yes yes yes uh and so that's why I suggested two uh so we have our D so we can maintain that um I believe it was it and can I just make a point on one of your topics the March election only 50% of those elections would be paid for uh by the county because the the mayor seat and seats one and two are off cycle from any uh that's a standalone election so that costs the city money going to November would cost the city Zer doll I will say this so you understand the possibility the the state law is set up to allow you even if you're normal elections are in November to move them to the presidential preference primary because of this expected larger voter turnout which is why people do it now and so uh you don't have to do that but it is set up as an option and if we'd have to draw it into the charter so be voters would know that in the year of a prefer preference instead of being able to get them voted in November vote them in or out you might have to wait until the following March but you have that option so you can have a November date but still in presidential preference years a March date if you chose to do that and the voters approved and how would that affect the terminal Office of the person you'd have to put it in the charter so that way people would know that if that situation happens and it happens to be your year up where you would ordinarily be up in November you're not up until March that's a part of what we'd have to draft okay that's too complicated I I I get I'm just I'm trying to lay the options out I'm not advocating I'm just telling you what's possible Su you know how much the the election last election cost the city six grand does that sound no was more than that like 20 or 30 that's right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah because we we could have done the all in all mail in for a lot less only thing I would like to see for March elections which did get past I think the council this time around was um it should be from 700 a.m. to 7 p.m. and I didn't realize when we you know went ahead with it that it was a 10 to six I overlook that but that's not us that's I know but we there was a time when we actually voted to have it as 7 a.m. to right when it was a standalone right that we had it and I I would prefer that because I I do feel the 10 to six even though it's the county that the V uh the elections did that I feel that it leaves out a a segment of Voters because of the time frame CU 10 to 6 the majority of the uh voters that live in the city of papka are leaving to go to work and they get back after 6 so they missed that opportunity even though we have a Saturday and Sunday um I just feel that in in the future when we have this off year in March that we should be conent of the time and so we only have the option if it's a stand alone election to set the time yeah we have that option of having 7 AM to 700 p.m. that's what I said if it's a stand alone election but we can't do that we could if we have we'd have to work with the supervisor El I'm sure we could we could do something we just have to pay that differential pay the two extra hours yeah because my understanding was the reason why they did that is because they was expecting a low vot turnout yeah um when you say who is expecting a a low turnout the supervisor election well he doesn't determine that I mean you know I mean he determines that only because he's Bing it on previous elections from 10 to 6 but I feel that if we looked at the one where we did 7 to 7 I think we had a larger turnout oh I don't have a problem with 7 to S yeah I'm just saying that was an our call but it could be alol yeah we wouldn't to pay for it yeah okay commissioner Nest only the money yeah I'll go quickly through this uh for districting I don't think it should be based on population I think should be based on the buildout of our city it's going to change as we go so I think once our City's built out then you add the districts because as we continue to grow we'll have to redistrict to make sure that it's uh equally distributed I don't think you can do that though I think districts have to be by population well should trigger for it I think we should be built out first and then Implement districting if you're talking about trigger I understand but if you're talking about districts themselves not being by population they to the mayor's point they have to be because the idea is each district would have roughly the same number both they to be roughly proportional to one another sure and that's not what I was saying it was the trigger thing correct exactly uh in reference to November elections I definitely have an appetite for that that was U proven to be a better turnout uh in commissioner vasquez's last election she garnered the most votes of anybody in the history of city of apka with over 10,000 votes so clearly the November elections do bring out more voters so that definitely worked Pro uh manager for of government it's clearly what um our voters are asking for and then I'm also for the uh term limits or have an appetite for the term limits uh of four years and in three terms and and I'm not sure I I'm have an appetite to come back I think you should be termed out I don't think we need to have a one term two years whatever I think you did it great job time for some succession plans again that that's also fine um so the decision would be you're turned out for a period of time or you're termed out you're termed out right and that I just need to know which one the latter is the one that I prefer but it's the appetite of the council and our our resents I I'm in agreement in fact I'm in agreement my my first campaign I don't I don't know if you ever ran into him uh judge judge Webster Bob Webster came up to me outside the BFW he argued that I shouldn't even run for two two terms he was a one term and get out of office kind of a guy so um I think when you run that your succession of service for that that term period I can I can buy into that okay anything else else oh so let me let me cover what I'm going to I'm going to make a checklist for me and for you all uh here are the issues that I've written down that I need at the parking lot session to know what you want me to write so that means we'll actually vote at that time who's on what side District trigger yay or nay and then if so if it's a yay what's the number uh Council manager on the ballot or not on the ballot again I assume it's going to be on but I need a vote that tells me that uh term limits again don't know but assume it would be enough votes to get on so I've heard four years three terms I've heard no repeats but there may be people who say well if you stay off for a year or you stay off a full term or what I y'all need to figure that out and then let me know at that time um one of the things that can be done to AO to avoid the conflict situation where the the voters vote to keep a strong mayor but to not let the mayor have the same Authority that he would have now regarding contract employees is to say that if the council manager form of government is defeated that mean the strong mayor stays then contract employees would be hired and fired the city manager city clerk City attorney by a majority vote of the council that way it would only work it that restriction would only be there if the council manager form of government fails the reason that's important is because if it wins you don't have to say it because it's already there it it belongs to this Council not the manager but the manager covers everything else uh elections again need a decision November March or some combination of November the presidential PR preference if you choose to do that and those are the ones I have written down is there anything I left out the one thing that I had was here we are this Charter review I don't the last time we did a charter review was over 10 years is there somewhere we can put in the charter that a charter review should be I don't know we'll have to determine the number because it it allows for our public to come in and say you know there's some things that are working some that are not working but at least have something in the charter that allows gives them some information that you know at after five years or after eight years or after 10 years a charter review and It prepares the public to kind of come in and either agree with the charter that's existing or make some changes because I feel as our city is growing um the chter should change with the growth of the city and some of the demands um on how the public gets served by their elected officials I I understand that let me walk you through that and what that looks like so uh again when I served for Mount dor one of the reasons I got good at Charter reviews is because their Charter required them every two years and so I did a ton of Charter reviews and I've done many many many many more since then um that's probably in my experience too frequently 5 to seven years probably some in there is about right um and you have a very brief Charter anyway as you can see like articles five and six we could have said never mind and we would have been in the same place relatively speaking the meat of the stuff is in the first four the stuff that really concerns most people and then a lot of stuff that people get exercised about isn't in the charter at all it's in the code of ordinances and the good news is for either of those things the code of ordinances or the charter there's already although I recognize that it's difficult to execute a citizen right to provide Charter amendments a citizen right to provide and present ordinances to the council for consideration and if the council says no the the the uh thing can still be put on the ballot if enough citizens sign on to it and if they vote for it then it becomes the law so long as it's not inconsistent with the Constitution or other legal principles so there is already the ability of the citizens to influence but to your point it is not easy to exercise because it requires organization you got to do the leg work on and all that stuff and it really usually will depend on just exactly how mad they are about whatever the issue is whether they can mobilize to that level but it's a it's already a possibility additionally with with a out regard let's suppose we put in a seven-year or a five-year automatic review it doesn't mean you couldn't decide as a body as you did here let's do it now you could do that and you can do it and you can also do it on a single issue a specific thing that's come up and you've seen this is a problem the hiring and firing issue all we want to do is address that issue you can put the one question without reviewing the whole Charter to the voters to make a decision about changing the charter so all of those things already exist but is it a good idea to take a look a certain periodic look no matter what yes I think so y'all just need to tell me how long and then I'll I'll write something up okay so you don't have to decide that today I'll put it down in the list uh and then y'all can talk about it then tell me what you want to see and I'll put it together we have if I'm not mistaken two parking lot sessions right two we we only scheduled one left but I think we had we left date for two right and so what I would propose is I get the feedback and y'all vote on these issues get the public participation that gives me time between that one and the next one to say okay now here's what it looks like if it were to go on the ballot the way you propose once y'all decide that the last thing for me to do is to put it in an ordinance format and bring it to you first reading second reading and then send it over to the supervisor of election so that's the order of operations okay sound good good any more questions it has to be done by June correct June something it's like June 8th June 10th something like that Susan can you find out exactly the date I know there's a deadline in June I just don't know what it is okay all right with that any other business okay thank you all for coming e