e e e good afternoon welcome to the apopa planning and meeting planning meeting commission commission meeting I'll be right March 12th 2024 if you would please stand for a moment of Silent prayer and the pledge amen I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for [Music] all if anyone here from the public has something they'd like to speak on front of the commission that is not on the agenda this evening now would be the time to do that Al righty move right into the approval of the meeting minutes from February 13 2024 I need a motion Mr chairman I'd like to make a motion that we approve the meeting minutes from February 13 2024 thank you sir motion by commissioner Mt do I have a second second second by commissioner Ryan all in favor say I I any opposed motion carries we have a presentation and a site plan tonight and on your agenda it is reversed so item number one we're going to do is the 451 Commerce Park plat Miss Sanchez good evening Jean Sanchez for Bobby how with the Community Development Department this is a request to recommend approval of the 451 Commerce Park plat the subject property is located at 550 and 6 50 Marshall Lake Road on the Southeast corner of Marshall Lake and State Road 451 it's approximately 22 acres in size the plat has been submitted for consideration of creating two lots for warehouse development lot one is 13 acres and lot two is about 8 Acres the plat also dedicates cross access easement water easement forc main easement and infil infiltration Pond easement access is proposed via Marshall Lake Road it is consistent with the major development plan approved by City Council in August 3rd 2022 and the construction site plan approved by the development Review Committee on January 4th 2023 the DRC recommends approval the recommended motion is to recommend approval of the plat staff is available for questions thank you Miss Sanchez have questions of staff right here do they have a presentation no sir bring it back to the board for discussion and a motion Mr chairman I'll make a motion to recommend approval of the 451 Commerce plat Commerce Park PL thank you motion by commissioner Stanley do I have a second second and commission just want to remind uh remind you to take public comment does anyone here from the public wish to speak on this matter seeing none bring it back to the board I need a second for commissioner s's motion I'll second it second by commissioner Ryan you sir all in favor say I I any opposed motion carried okay presentation of the transportation element I'm going to let my Consultants because they make a lot of money and the more I can get them um faster I can get them in here and out of here the less money it cost me um what I wanted to tell you was we're adopting um a new Transportation element ours is really old as you know and um what we're doing today is we're going through the plan with you I sent it out to you and asked you to look at it so that we could discuss it your role in this is to make a recommendation to council to uh transmit it to do Deo for approval um and that will happen next month so we just wanted to have almost like a work session with y'all to answer any questions and see what what we missed see if we're on target you know whatever y'all want to talk about so that when we come next month for transmission it'll be um a much um shorter and easier meeting I'd like to introduce uh Mike Woodward with kimley horn he's going to start Evan magley also he works with kimley horn too he's going to do part of it and I'm going to sit there and just sit there all right thanks Pam so yeah the transportation element the reason we've got this broken up into two sides is uh the first part's a data and Analysis which I'm going to cover and then the policy stuff is what evans's going to cover he's a he's a planner I'm an engineer so that's a pretty pretty nice dividing line for something like this as Pam mentioned we're here today we're going to be back next month um in that month's time it'll it'll give you the the ability to kind of digest some of this and uh provide some comments that we'll use there's also some some public involvement that that's going to be open and at next month's meeting we we will ask for your recommendation for the city council to transmit this to um now it's called Department of Commerce used to be Deo before that it was DCA so name change is new this year for that department um after this and that's that's what's kind of the third bolt here is the transmitt at transmittal hearing at city council which is tentatively scheduled for April 17th feel pretty good that we'll be be able to make that um after that the Department of Commerce has 30 days to review and after that point we will uh take it back to city council depending on what the comments are uh if there's no comments we'll be able to to to go pretty quick if there is some time to work through some things it'll take a little bit longer so here we go um the transportation element we started by collecting and analyzing data all right our existing conditions was year 2022 that's when the traffic counts were available um were required to to go out into the future and so we looked at years's 2034 and year 2050 so by having those two time frames it gives us sort of a midterm and a long-term Horizon we do have new goals objectives and policies that Evan will talk about um we've we've broken it into three to really kind of kind of keep it organized and and a little bit little bit more clear which ele or which portion we're talking about uh the first one is about multimodal Transportation Systems that's a a term that's been around for what feels like a long time now but during the the previous previous uh Transportation element it was fairly new so definitely more more on that later um the second is on Transportation infrastructure uh where where are we going to invest most of our most of our funds related to transportation and the third is where does some of that funding come from what do how does a capital Improvement plan relate to this um we do want some input from you we've got mentioned the public we've got a little bit more discussion about that later so why are we here uh Pam alluded to it it's been a long time it was 2009 so that's a long time to go be between updates um all the elements are currently being updated right we're going to focus on Transportation uh per statute The Horizon is 10 years um the previous one looks out to your 2030 so we've got to go beyond that also since 2009 you've had a little bit of growth you've seen some changes in your city and so let's let's adjust for those and make sure that we're prepared for what's here now and also looking towards the future so what do the existing conditions look like and um here on the right side of the screen you can see a map of the jurisdiction where the city city roads are in red and then the the roads in Black are either state or County um it was important for this map to just differentiate between City and not city right whether they're County or state that of course we we we would handle them differently there's different rules and standards and whatnot but the point is red or City roads black roads are not um and we also looked at access management a number of other criterias there's there's a a bunch of different maps in there that provide different types of information depending on what you're looking for um regardless of jurisdiction this is an important point the city can establish the level of service standard for all roads within the city again it doesn't if it's a DOT road a County Road the city has the responsibility of establishing the standard so that's determining at what point consider a road to be operating acceptably or failing context classification that's new since 2009 um and that does affect things like capacity or level of service or where you draw that threshold it also affects some of the roadway standards like Lane widths Target speeds Etc some bicycle and pedestrian standards are are also um they vary depending on the context classification what we used was consistent with the state guidelines for breaking them between the the different different criteria and most roadways in the city fall within the the the ones that are listed here um one of the main points is that we should treat US 441 different right out front than we treat it uh far away where it's more Rural right we we shouldn't apply the same standards to the road we need to it could be the same road same number of lanes we should treat it differently depending on what's around it so again most of the most of the your roads are going to be Suburban residential Suburban commercial but then in the downtown area you get into kind of urban General and urban urban center so um it's interesting that you have such a variety like a lot of cities you'll have a a much narrower uh definition of roads but because a POA goes from rural to Urban all within a city that's it's a little bit interesting and at least I think so uh a little bit more about level of service there's six letter grades a through f um it's not like school right in school you want A's um if you have A's in transportation that means you spent way too much money on your roads um this is this is to be measured during typically you get in the most detail during peak hour right and it's about how does it feel does it feel comfortable if you're able to just change lanes without checking in your rearview mirror that might be level of service a it's also pretty dangerous um you don't you don't want your roads to be able to function that way during the peak hour again there's just not enough Asphalt in the world to to have that happen so what you really want to aim for is something like D or E and and again this is on the conditions from The Traveler perspective where e is pretty much that's that's as much as you're going to tolerate now one thing that level of service doesn't account for is sort of what happens after that like you once you know spoiler alert once we project out to year 2050 there's going to be some roads that are failing and once you get to e there's no e+ or E minus or or any kind of extra designation it's just e so um at that point at some point the city is going to have to look at something other than just level of service and one metric that I'd advise to consider is duration of congestion so you know it's going to be broken you know it's going to be congested during the peak hour so how long does that last is that 15 minutes where it's bad or is it is it bad for two hours of the day right and the more time goes by the more urban situ loc an area is um the more time it's going to be over over capacity so all right there we go also the final bullet point here is that most roads um are going to be designated as constrained at some point um it's not in anyone's best interest really anywhere to continue just widening further and further and further if we had a 10 Lane Road that would be catastrophic to the community um so so many of the roads uh where there is some widening once you get to four lanes there's there's not a whole lot past that so the maps do show which roads are constrained and we've got more details there if you're concerned about a particular Road all right so what's it like right now believe it or not all roadways are operating acceptably some of them are pretty close some of them are really close but just under that peak hour threshold for for level of service e um so right now this in this this map here shows whether they're D and F you can see there's no red right now again this is based on 2022 um if you've I know there's been some growth since then I wouldn't be surprised if we went out and measured today if a couple of these roads would trip that threshold all right so future what what's it going to look like by 2034 and we use typical uh industry standard methods to forecast traffic out to year 2034 and then 2050 um but I want to talk about some improvements that that the city's already recognized are going to be necessary and is working towards now so some of them are in that kind of Kelly Park interchange area uh for example Sadler Road where it it would extend to uh have connect golden gem over to plumbus sento and then eff Drive uh will extend south from Kelly Park down to Sadler Road there's some widening projects okoya poka Road from Keen up to 13th Street from two to four lanes and then widening Kelly Park Road from Waypoint Boulevard which is uh it's going to be a new road that'll be west of golden gem and then take that over to Plymouth serrento so that widening is from two lanes to four LAN it's under design right now 234 level of service all roadways are projected to operate acceptably except for State Road 436 for a portion from P Pont wak over to the seminal County Line and then US 441 in four different areas shown on the map here I won't I won't read them the map is a little bit easier to look at County Road 435 from Sandpiper to Votto and then Welch Road and I've got this highlighted that's um Welch road is the only city road all the other roads are are are state or County um Welsh Road from Rock Springs Road to creekline road is highlighted keep that in mind um but also anticipated to be over capacity from creekline to AA Springs all right so what improvements I just mentioned Welch Road that's on here again from Rock Springs to Waba so um cities out ahead of it uh plans plans on widening that road by uh by 2050 some of the other ones uh include extending golden gem Road from Kelly Park up to andich and several other widening projects as shown in the map here 2050 of level of service now we're seeing more red right I promised promised you some red here it is um several roads St Road 436 US 441 County Road County Road um AO a popka road wver Springs Road and Bion road then there's Kelly Park Road from Waypoint to Plymouth sento even though that's get widened by the time you get out to 2050 it's going to be congested again so that's what I was talking about like now level of service might not be the best metric to use because it doesn't go past e so um at that point we should be talking about like well how many hours of the day is it congested that would be an appropriate measure to consider at that point in time um I also say that I will also say that your 2050 is a long way away it's hard to be exact about when these things are going to happen we use the best methods that we can but ultimately we're still just sort of forecasting how much growth is going to occur and that is affected by a lot of different a lot of different things so whether this whether it looks like this in your 2045 or 2055 I can't tell you but this is our our um the results of the analysis using those industry standard methods so where does the city plan to invest a lot of its uh uh infrastructure and and one thing is intersection improvements so so a lot of these improvements are going to be via City or via Partnerships with developers or with the county or with the state and the goal of these is to maximize efficiency without needing to widen the road so these will improve operations um remove bottlenecks without needing to widen so again at this point your goal should be really efficiency like not let's not have it a lot of capacity at one location and then none at the next let's have it so that it functions about the same name at most locations all right now I'm going to turn it over to Evan magley um he's a certified planner to talk through some of the gops thanks Mike um as Mike mentioned at the beginning we have uh three new goals um they've been reorganized be a little bit easier to understand um the goals objectives and policies were Rewritten um to reflect the traffic analysis that Mike kind of gave you just an overview of um they've been streamlined and reorganized um some language that we think might be better suited to the Land Development code was pulled out and uh multimodal transportation and safety were a big Focus um speaking of safety um it's Incorporated to into almost every goal objective and policy um a lot of context sensitive measures like traffic calming and lowering Target speeds were included um consistency with vision zero and Target zero um what's the difference Target zero is just fdot's take on Vision zero um both of them have the goal of eliminating serious injuries and fatalities and um again emphasis on safety and vulnerable users for multimodal transportation the goal is to increase the use of other modes um of Transportation um it's not going to eliminate the congestion that Mike showed you but it will provide another option um and then it will allow people who can't drive cars an option to get around uh Trails the goal um with Trails is to expand the trail Network and make it feel more comfortable um by providing amenities like shading and um stops every so often and improves safety uh also want to point out that the city has a pretty cool policy already where multi-use trails are required adjacent to new development um since the last update there's been a lot of changes in the transportation world if you think about Amazon deliveries Uber Uber Eats these kinds of things uh scooters um so we wanted to prepare the city um to handle these changes as as they progress and um these are some of the partners that the city um will be coordinating with in the future there might be uh other partners as well but these are some of the the partners that um the city has been successful in partnering with and I will turn it back over to Mike well thanks so this is just a reiteration of where we started um just to bring up the point again that we'll be back next month um we can have some questions today after this but um next month We'll be asking for your recommendation for Council to transmit to um the department of com Commerce public input we created a virtual room that looks sort of like a a regular public uh involvement meeting that uh has like a QR code you can scan and we brought some paperwork to kind of distribute this and this is something we can we can kind of post to a number of different places to try to get that public input but um there's a little sign-in sheet and a place to put comments and then all of the maps that are in the plan as well as the text for for all the goals objectives and policies can be found through this virtual public meeting room all right so let's wrap it up um transportation most of the future deficiencies are anticipated to Beyond state or County roadways many intersection improvements are planned the gops are broken up to into three groups that emphasize safety multimodal transportation in complete streets uh prepares the city for Technologies and we're pretty heavy on inter agency coordination right since most of those roads are are that are going to be over capacity are on State and County Roads we got to be prepared to to talk to them also just Partnerships for funding are going to be important um there are several funding sources out there that are grants related so the city will have to advocate for those projects get the grants and then administer the projects accordingly um in the public input Pro uh process is is just starting now we'll have the next month to to gather input um contact information there's Pam and myself and that's all we had thank you sir I know this answer but I'm gonna ask anyways do we have any questions yes all right commissioner doy don't want to disappoint yeah okay great first all I'm going to say it's a pleasure to be back here with you all sorry the last two months I was deployed with the Florida state guard missed you so I wasn't here but I'm glad to be back tonight so let's talk about this plan uh I'm sorry mind meetings were all a little short shorter than I was gone right okay so let's talk about this so I'm talking about the policy side first of all I appreciated it uh the way you guys presented this but uh policy 1.4.5 okay reduce vehicle dependence promote non-vehicular travel I I don't think the reduced vehicle dependence is something that we should have in this plan if you guys if if that's that's I know that's a policy thing but I'm here to work for the the city council and the residence of Apopka and I don't want to reduce vehicle dependence for people that don't want that to happen okay if we want to increase public transportation that's fine but that's a little different to me than reduce vehicle dependence which also goes down to policy 1.5.1 which is develop a multimodal transportation system that reduces Rel upon single occupancy Vehicles This concerns me m this is the kind of stuff I expect here at of DC not in apka reducing single occupancy Vehicles yeah so I think we could probably just change the language because our intention was not to like I'm not trying to force anybody out of their car it's to provide more options um recognizing that the cost of widening a road to six six Lanes is probably going to be prohibitive uh due to the rightaway impacts so it's like what else can we do what can fit and and what could we what could we try to build to provide more options so I think that's a valid point we can look at that language um because it it sounds a little prescriptive when the intention was to be to have more choices and I believe that based on the dis the the uh presentation yall just gave but I would certainly recommend fixing that language uh moving on to section 1.8 uh 1.8.3 seek opportunities for multiuse trails to connect schools neigh roads Parks green ways Etc that's great I love that uh and 1.8.4 include the constructions of sidewalks and bike accommodations I think that's probably something better addressed in Land Development code 1.8.4 specifically because I know there is a part of the LDC whenever uh you have a zoning reclassification or use change of occupancy or usage I mean um one of you have to put if I may let me point something out real quick this is the comp of plan which the Land Development code is based on Bas so you have to start here to get it to the Land Development code okay well let me finish my point but I like that so but the thing is go down to Alabama Road the corner of apka Boulevard in Alabama Road there's a sidewalk that goes into a telephone pole that makes no sense because it it terminates right there you know which one I'm talking about that that's actually an Orange County unincorporated okay well whatever but that's that's a kind it looks in congruent and it just doesn't look right yeah there's a few of those round Town actually yeah yeah I mean whenever I was talking about doing something down the road here I was going to have to put a sidewalk that went to Nowhere you know that's the kind of stuff that I would like to see eliminate if possible y so that's the only comments I had thank I have a question that's relevant to commissioner D's question the multimodal um element of that what has historically what's been the success with that in other words if you provide the option how many people are are going to revert from an automobile or convert from an automobile to riding their bike or a scooter and and you know I understand if we were a college town there's a bunch of kids running around but I just my thoughts are that the adults aren't going to give up their car no matter what no matter what kind of Trail you made unless they got them to work 20 minutes faster they're still not going to Pedal a bicycle so I'm just curious is that successful in an environment like this does it make any difference is there any measurable tangible difference from doing the multimodal or adding the the bike paths or things like that yeah so I'm not aware of any new data that's come out but looking I was trying to answer this question a little while back and just couldn't find specific information and and part of your question I love it because you're were saying like in an area like this right the area where you implement this stuff's going to matter you mentioned like a college town or any place where there's density then you'll have more people using it the more spread out you are the fewer people are going to use that type of system especially for for getting to work now it's I I would also advise against kind of saying whether something was successful or Not by measuring how many people like get out of your car and and switch over there's going to be some people who are trying to use these facilities now and um it's kind of dangerous to ride your bike in the road or it's kind of dangerous to ride your bike in the sidewalk it's just not the right speed for for either one um some people are riding their bike to work not not necessarily by choice um but sometimes that's the only means they have um or maybe lost your license but um I I wouldn't want to say that a facility successful or not based on like the percentage of people that are that are using it if you got a population that could use it and you build stuff like that some people will what that number is hard to say again I haven't I haven't seen any new data to to give me actual number to give you that that that's defensible I I would again if if we're you know we're downtown Chicago yes I understand that here I just don't see and and tail tailoring a road or or working with a road to to to make a m multimodal path or whatever you would do just doesn't seem like something that would make any sense here um you know we have a trail that people marginally use um Bic icles they're not going to be on the sidewalk they're going to be having traffic like they always have been um and and I've had actually employees that lost their license for whatever reason they don't ride a bike to work they ride a bike to the bus stop and then they ride the bus to work so I I just and I'm not it just gives me appearance of oh you know we're working on multimodal because it sounds good and it's a nice thing but I don't see how that could be applicable here and what difference it could possibly make in the traffic because you know Joe Blow going to work in Lake County or going in Orlando is not riding his bicycle he's going to get in the car and the the traffic issues that we have now are not going to be alleviated and in my opinion wouldn't even put a dent in it it's just something that we're we're I think we're spending money on something that's completely irrelevant if you're you know a trail around a neighborhood yeah but something anywhere out here on one of the main thorough fairs or anywhere that we're expending money on it I just don't see it C can I give you a different perspective to look at that okay so if you look at downtown of PKA and you know where the West Orange Trail is if you take the West Orange Trail North when it gets finished you can get on the um the wava trail and that'll take you all the way out to the east coast if you go south you'll get on the coast to coast and on the trail you can go well literally coast to coast and Apopka sits right in the middle of that so with regard to developing a trail Network I don't necessarily think of it as um for every foot of Trail we take a car off the road I see it as a big economic development tool because we're sitting right in the middle of all this you come to downtown a papa you can go out to the um Wildlife Drive um it's a big selling point it's a big amenity for all these people that are coming in and and not to interrupt but I don't mean I'm not talking about the trail I agree the trails and and people use the trails for their intended purpose people don't take the trails to work people don't take the trails to go to the store they take the trails for like you said it it's it's Recreation they'll they load their bikes up and go and and ride the trail from one end to the other I'm talking about multimotor where you're discussing making lanes for bikes or Scooters or stuff like that not the trail system I think that was two separate issues on the the presentation the other gentleman GES yeah and just a couple couple things there like we're we're not standing in front of you telling you that if you if you add some bike lanes that you won't have congestion like you're going to have congestion that's that's that's not something that we're going to argue and most people in Florida are going are going to be driving like everywhere in Florida that's just going to be the case it's hot cars are comfortable um I don't think that's going to change anytime soon again this is about providing Alternatives and if we're talking about like investing some money for people to have choices and some people will use it right like it's hard to imagine sometimes it's hard to imagine yourself using it but there are people that use these facilities almost pretty much wherever you build them but the overall cost to do something something like this is often times significantly less than the cost of widening a road um because well every multimodal project I've worked on does not require right of way so if you're doing something like that you can do it within the footprint you're not acquiring property and the cost is relatively low while providing an option and and again I agree with you I don't I don't think anybody's under the impression that this is going to is going to make it so that it's easier to drive or or there's like you'll be the only one on the road behind the wheel that's that's definitely going to be the predominant mode of tra travel throughout Florida okay if it's in our comp plan we are U more likely to get grant money and we're also able to say somebody's doing a new development we're doing it right now we can impose on them to build a segment of the trail or anything else related so a part of it is so that we don't have to pay for some of these things too we can either get money or some have someone else spend their money yeah on that i' I'd like to add to that just a little bit um grant money there's there's a decent amount of grant money right now focused on safety and there is a kind of a nationwide push towards safety we mentioned Target zero or Vision zero which is to reduce fatalities and and severe injuries from crashes um a lot of the money is going to be focused on uh locations that can that can try to address vulnerable users so vulnerable users would be bicyclist pedestrians motorcyclists so if you have a project that can reduce crashes for those types of users then you're more likely to get funding from the federal government that then will will significantly reduce the overall cost to the locality to implement some of these some of these improvements right thank you all right any more questions than do oh okay I think I have three three questions and I can ask all three um when you refer to the level of service and you say that the city is responsible for that um level of service that that road provides am I saying that correctly I might have misspoken uh my point was that you get to choose which grade is acceptable right like you're you you're not you're not no one's going to look at you and say like hey you said this was supposed to be level of service D and it's e so now you're in trouble that's that's not what's going to happen my point was you get to choose whether D or E is acceptable but okay so then if we choose Level D as being the highest you know level that we want to to go being acceptable obviously we have roads that are currently County and currently and probably will forever be State the county might not be that in 2050 um how how do we impress upon both of those entities to create improvements to those to try and at least address and maintain okay that's that's one question you mentioned when you you you use the word constrain my question is what improvements can be made when you're at the constrained you know um terminology and then my last question you mentioned kind of in progression um once you get to a certain point then you start a discussion about congestion and the hours of congestion my question is is that just discussion we we have a a great uh philosophical intellectual conversation and we check the box that we've had that or what ability do we have to make improvements now that we know will be an issue in 2050 before 2050 and when I say before I mean 10 to 15 years before 2050 so I'll start with the easy one the second one definition of constraint okay um that pretty much means me that we're not going to add through Lanes if if there's two lanes per Direction it's a four-lane road we're not going to make it a six Lane Road or if it's six we're not going to make it eight so it's it's constrained so you could do things within that space and it's hard to answer exactly what because it's going to be Case by case road by road how much space do we have how wide are the lanes how wide's the median how wide is the space from the edge of pavement to to to the sidewalk and then over to the right of way so all those things will will factor into what the options are and it's it's really difficult to say without looking at a specific Road um but that is my favorite type of project is looking at a road and figuring out okay what what do we do with this and and then my question would be my follow-up question would be in your study that you've done in the past and present and future does that incorporate potential oneway roads that used to be two-way but now this is one way and this is one way it's it's something that could happen that's something that's a that type of change is is a big change and it's something that you would want to spend a lot of time vetting and and involving involving the people who live there the businesses that are there uh the residents that are immediately adjacent or would otherwise be affected um but that that's a big big change that that we would not I mean would would not go about lightly um it's something that like there's nothing saying that it's uh there's actually there is a there is a policy saying that it could be considered so it's it's something that's on the table but again I'm Notting it would be easy and I'm not suggesting that anyone would take that lightly certainly but when you're sitting there saying it's it's four lane we're not going to six we're not going to eight and you have the word congestion you have the word you know at at what point do you sit down and say we have reached our Max Capacity of X and we really really serious need to look at you know Y and Z as a possibility Beyond 2050 there are two kinds of roadway constraints there are political constraints where y'all just say not doing it and then there's physical constraints where the cost of it would it doesn't make any sense anymore you know you take out city blocks and I'm going to give you an example of what you're talking about or I think we've got US 441 running through the middle of downtown it's Main Street okay it is what it is but um there are a lot of things that have been tossed around about that and you know already that people are trying to bypass downtown some of them go up on Monroe some of them go on Sixth Street I don't know if you noticed out here by front of the fire department we striped a big old crosswalk because the firefighters were MH scared to cross the street um because people were were cutting through there and just zipping by so we're going to fix that but part of that too because the comp plan's going to let us do it is to um study areas to look at at those kind of improvements so we have a beautiful grid system in parts of the city where things like that would work I have a consultant about to go under um contract to look at the kind of the Station Street the CRA area to look at those kind of improvements because there are just some places where what we have for rideway is is what we have and or it's a place where we don't really care if people are not in gridlock but they're not going fast we want it to be you know a better kind of downtown where people come to events and feel comfortable walking well and and one other thing Pam and I I've watched this and especially watch it during um hurricane when generally the state at times will remove all tolls and for example when the tolls are removed the traffic on 429 increases dramatically Boy Scout traffic reduces dramatically AOA poka reduces is dramatically I have a friend that will not pay the toll to go to to the Winter Garden when it's essentially 75 cents and will sit in two-lane traffic you know potentially building four length Etc so I wonder sometimes you know and I appreciate that you showed a slide that had you know uh cfx as one of the you know entities but I look at some areas and somebody could go well that'd be everything but like from 441 down to the turnpike I sit and I go wow what would this be like if there wasn't a toll to the secondary roads and the the traffic that's on secondary roads Plymouth sento Road once everything gets going up there at Kelly Park uh I'm sitting there going boy if the onramp at Kelly Park all the way down to 441 all the way down to mland Boulevard did not have tolls there and I think there would be one two tolls if I remember correctly the amount of traffic that would then use that which is built for you said A or B level speed excuse me um as instead of D or e um I I I I think of that often as a possibility you know that's a another heavy Hall to get people to agree to that type of thing yeah I I've never never studied that so I can't really opin you know anodally watching going wow this is amazing to you know probably a lot I can I can tell you that um over time like even the toll r roads get filled up people people driving on the 408 have got to be ridiculously frustrated that they're paying to sit in bumper to bumper traffic on the way to work and home in the downtown area um but again I've not studied that I could I could only guess and I don't I don't know how valuable that's going to be for you but I did your third your third question um oh gosh I had something for you um what was your third question well when you talk about congestion and you discuss is it academic right is it just a is it just a discussion so um there's a lot of reasons why you might prioritize funding towards one facility or another something like the amount of congestion is is one of the metrics um depending on where you are what what else matters to that road it might be the most important one or it might be one among many so my point wasn't that um we would we would change our decision-making process for which roads to prioritize it was just that we might have to change how we measure this um point being if you have two roads that are otherwise identical one has more cars that are struggling to get through maybe you should focus on that one instead and just the system we're using now is going to become obsolete at some point in time that's it thank you Mr yeah this is just minor we know that we have an extensive trail system through Central Florida which is marvelous and uh obviously people who are riding bicycles or walking take advantage of it that's super um you in the presentation made you made mention of a multi-use trail is that different from what exists now I like I'm I'm more guilty than most people of throwing around uh different words to kind of mean the same thing um yeah if if you want to get super wonky there are differences in the specifics of the definitions um I I've always taken a more practical approach to it and and just you provide the best facility you can wherever wherever it can go and what you call it doesn't doesn't matter so much so I apologize for for throwing around a bunch of different terms but um certainly uh depending on what's happening in the surrounding area will dictate what type of specific facility you'll have and what the different elements of that facility would be like how far is it away from the street how wide is it well how much space do you have to work with right how much do you want to spend so so the these types of things are going to be um important criteria for what it actually looks like and because I've never been uh too much caught up in the definition of the different terms I would do a poor job of describing the different ones but like there's there's I could tell you that a shared use path has standards um for for design whereas a wide sidewalk really does not well it has it has far fewer far far fewer standards so sometimes names matter and and that'll affect um uh uh obtaining funding sometimes if if there's certain pools of funds that are only for trails and you're trying to build a wide sidewalk you might not be eligible for that thank you you might just change what we call it or if you change what you call then there's those standards that apply of like what's the what's the distance what's the this Trail has a design speed of 18 miles per hour sidewalk you should not be traveling at 18 miles per hour so there's there's differences sometimes depending on the names but for the most part want to keep it open to build the best facility for the specific location on a Case by casee basis thank you commissioner Wason commissioner Stanley commissioner Ryan got one question here wouldn't it relieve a lot of traffic at um on 429 if we can put an interchange on State Road 436 435 I'm sorry and an interchange with the 429 no on on four 435 State um County Road 435 and which intersection 435 and where else and 4 429 and the 429 so um adding new interchanges is always a a pretty hefty undertaking with somebody like cfx um the spacing I do you have that I'm not sure what the spacing is actually I'll try to answer off the fly actually that interchange was there originally when they were under construction and the state took it out right because it was not a it was not part of the original plan to keep the the the access limited to the 429 to keep the growth down right but it didn't cor work corre yep I think if if they put the interchange back in there it would reduce a lot of traffic it would probably reduce traffic but when as soon as you put an interchange they you want to develop it and that area is still pretty rural but uh but this that that's something we don't have control over but the state did take that out you the problem is people in in north of Papa when they want want to go 429 they have to go to Kelly Park instead it could just turn on 435 and save the traffic from Kelly Park I mean love I know when I when I go toona I have to go to the Kelly Park Road get get on The Interchange yep 435 is is what's Road it's Rock Springs Road pouth Plymouth uh Mount Plymouth Road basically pouth Road no I don't know number 4 maybe with 414 yeah certainly wherever you build an interchange um that becomes more accessible to people who are on S any kind of an interstate or limited access system so that will usually bring more traffic to the area in the short term like it's great in the long term that that area near the interchange becomes more more congested more congested than otherwise would it causes a lot more traffic in the Kelly Park in 429 a lot more than it should be you can cut out a lot of traffic if you put put that interchange in there that was a legislative decision correct when our interchange went in or when we were awarded an interchange and it was decided that it was going to be at Kelly Park Road and um the 429 we knew and this goes back to the whole Waka legislation it would take an act of the of the State Legislature to put that back in and there are a lot of people that have your way of thinking but there's even more that you know they a gas that we even have one so when when they put the one in at 4:35 it was with the understanding it was a temporary interchange till they well I think by 2050 they'll have different attitude substantially well you know and and and this plan is made to be amended and if the state comes to us or cfx comes to us and says getting too much much pressure we're going to put in there we will amend our plan and a heartbeat to include that in support of their project and one more one more question um do you think by 2050 most Vehicles if not all vehicles will be self-driving vehicles I think so yeah by 2050 um that's that's quite a bit like 20 some years from now um I think I I'll keep I'll hold on to an internal combustion engine that I can drive myself but it'll be like a weekend vehicle but uh kind of speculating there's projections that like there's we'll have there's a lot of things happening with the like Automation and self-driving is already pretty strong um there's people in the industry of basically uh like drone helicopters that'll be personal transport and they're telling us that they're going to be online by 2030 I don't exactly believe that but my point being if people are saying that they think they'll have like individual drone helicopters to for medium- range trips then yeah by 2050 it's going to be autonomous vehicles for the most part so how how do we plan for that or should we plan for that so so like we're going to update this every 10 years right now it's a little bit early to to kind of focus on that but a lot of the the vehicles now as long as we have like they need they need Lane striping that's strong right that's more of a maintenance issue than it is a a long-term Vision issue it's more of a what are we doing day-to-day to make sure that the infrastructure is in place where all the cameras can pick up what's out there and there's like that's signage that's pavement markings mostly maybe some infrastructure on the ground but um other than being open to technology advances which we are um we certainly don't want to get prescriptive about like how this is going to go or if what I'm saying right now about pavement markings and signage becomes obsolete in 15 years because the technology finds a different way so for now we're talking about being kind of open to technology but there's not much that would make sense in the long range plan to say how specifically we're going to address one thing over another I just personally I hope there is self-driving cars because I don't want to be that old and and we probably don't want you driving either um if you look at the the compr the transportation element that we're placing and you look at the projects that are in there that in 2009 were projects that we forecasted for now they never had happened development didn't go that way and so they're not needed projects so that's why like Jim said or Mike said every we update about every we're supposed to update every 10 years we hope that we're on that we're going to be on that schedule now you know the crystal ball only looks out so far it's certainly I have no delusions that what we've got here for 2050 are tax 40 yeah I mean at some point you just have to extrapolate things out and say you know we're kind of moving that way but uh let's see I'm not sure I'll be here in 2050 I'm not sure how much I'll care but I do care about 2030 and 2040 you're right we're all be dead okay some of the things that we see too through our interactions with other groups related to um intelligent Transportation Systems um some of the things that we're talking about are going to be uh addressed by that where adding capacity is not um there will be other ways to add capacity to roads without adding Lanes so you know some of it is one thing would really help if they add another um interchange on 429 that would really help and would have to widen the road so much on Kelly Park Road and traffic would be a lot lower okay cuz I know everybody lives on Long Rock friend Road wants to go to Dayton wants to go to Sanford they got to go down to Kelly Park interchange which is you know inefficient and it's just going to be more I do that all the time when I'm going to go to Stanford or or Dayton I to go to Kelly Park interchange I shouldn't do that and I come back I have to do the same thing perhap a helicopter you suggest I can't wait that long I I would get off Mount Plymouth and go up through sento and get on there that's only two Lan Road that's not I'm not going to go opposite direction all right any more questions coun so we'll see you uh next month to do the approval portion now is this available can you friend out cbody I can if I hadn't just marked all over this one I would have given it to you and the other thing that I didn't send out to you is what Mike mentioned at the beginning of his presentation where you can go to our room I'm sorry and and you can write comments on the plan you know we're we're trying to get people to go in there and sign in and look around and write comments or you can just send um me or Mike an email with anything that you'd like to say about this because we'd like to get it incorporated into the plan but I'm I'll send in an email I'll send you the um the link to that room with it's got the um qsr code on it too a and and then you can just click on it and go there and and um and see the plan and I think you can Mark things on maps [Music] and and I would say that if I could do it it's pretty easy to do so then when we come back next month the intention will be to just uh really quickly summarize what we talked about today and then cover any changes that would that have been made and any comments that we've received so we're not going to try to redo what we did today it'll just be really quick to pretty direct covering the the comments great thank you all right thank you very much thank you all righty do we have any old business um I'm I'm kind of an old person so um not kind of you are um I think I am the oldest one in the room but anyway um I just wanted to announce that I am retiring uh my last uh official day is the end of the end of May and uh so we um I've been doing the planning thing for a little over 39 years and in in Apopka working for apka for a little over 19 years so I've uh I've decided to go kaying and scuba diving and do some woodw and biking and a few other things at my leisure versus just confined to one weekend well good for you Jim good for you congratulations but I want to thank you all for your service here also um I know this is semi than this except for I thank you pretty much every time you come in and I appreciate your time and your efforts uh going through this with uh with staff and with the uh the applicants that are keeping a papka growing great great God bless you all all right do we have any new business seeing none meeting adjourn for