##VIDEO ID:r--PE4ue6hY## today is Wednesday August 28th 2024 and this is a meeting of the senior center site selection in building committee this meeting will be held in person at the location provided on this notice members of the public are welcome to attend this inperson meeting please not that an option for remote attendance and our participation via Zoom is being provided as a courtesy to the public the meeting or hearing will not be suspended or terminated if technological problems interrupt the virtual broadcast unless otherwise required by law members of the public with particular interest in a specific item on this agenda should make plans for inperson versus virtual attendance accordingly this meeting will be live on Zoom the public May access the proceedings by joining Zoom meeting 375 414665 or by calling 92925 6099 for additional information about remote participation please contact Carly anelis assistant town man at ATM a.a. us or 978 772 8220 extension 100 prior to meet you want to check the meeting ID number because you said 6065 mine say 6055 oh it is right I just misspoke 6055 that is correct all right so um I would like to call us to order at 6:05 pm and uh I propose amending the agenda to have item 6.5 let's call it um for a presentation of the first draft of the total project cost motion to make the amendment all in favor chair says I all right um so thank you to um Carolyn I believe you did the uh July 14th minutes um did anyone have any questions on have a chance to read them said were they were good what count right all right then I we approve the meeting minutes for the meeting of July 14 2024 all in favor CH so I right and then um Dennis did you say you did not have minutes for August 14th yes that's correct okay so um I think we can just table that until the next meeting great so that brings us to Public Safety consultation and thank you to um the police and fire chief who are here with us at the table and the rest of fire safety folks who come to join us for the discussion today is it safe um well I'll give a little introduction we're always very concerned about safety this particular type Center um as we get older our reaction times are a little bit more limited we like more time when we enter an exit site the site is has a lot it has we what we call dark sky Lighting in the parking lot uh it's an LED lighting system to make sure that it will evenings and in the winter time and the dark that U it's Clarity of of the parking lot and access to the building we also design our parking lot to be one way one way out um and it takes probably two weeks for everybody to learn how that works once you understand how it works it creates a much safer environment um it's kind of a joke amongst us older folks that we often park by Braille bump our way in and out our paring spaces are designed to be 9 foot6 wide with double lines to make it clear for us when we park um and then in terms of access to the building um we're planning to have a generator so it's a whole building generator um which covers both Air Conditioning Heating and the U kitchen operation uh for for cooling and uh Waring Cent we we don't call it Emergency Center because emergency centers require a lot of other aspects of the building that need to meet the requirements but it is a center which certainly double as en Waring W especially as our summers get hotter and our Winters get warmer winter um and also one thing that as these these are very fimar drawings right now just site plans and a um and a floor plans eventually if building develops and it gets through town meeting with approvals um we really uh will will address issues of egress in and out of the building um we actually this particular youth group are elderly and often people get to the second floor with Walkers or Wheelchairs and you can get up there with the elevator which is an accessible elevator but often when we get on to the upper floors our adaa requirements don't give us adaa exit in terms of for safety and any building over three stories or four stories requires to have an area of refuge and a rated stairway we provide that project uh even though we're only two stories we want to accommodate people who have mobility issues that can't do the stairs in case there's an emergency so our second means of egress out of the building is is a 2hour rated stairway which has an area for up to two or three Walkers or wheelchairs um and in that spot just for fire police understand this there's a call system in that area Refuge to alert anybody who's coming in dur an emergency in terms of of professionals that they're they're alerted that there's somebody in in The Refuge area to be uh helped out of the building and that occurs down at the main entrance uh where the firearm system that is in the building it's actually a call directly to that room and so anybody that's in that room can push a button and do that the other safety thing we do in the building is that all areas where there's like fitness facility the bathrooms in each bathroom stall at the urals at each Ural and in the main bathroom area there's a u an emergency call pole and it's a string that goes down within 6 in of the floor so if you've Fallen you're able to reach this and pull this button that alerts the administrative desk area with a location as to where this is and that room has an exterior light on it that lights up and let you know that somebody in that room is in distress these are all things that we design into these centers for uh life safety of course it's a fully sprinkled building fully um uh alarmed um the other issue about the building is we carry a separate line item for it and security we carry that outside of the main contract because generally that's a proprietary system that the town uses and if we're public bidding it it's low bidder winds and you don't necessar you you really want to work with somebody who he manages all your security with town so we carry that as a separate line it and that's the kind of thing that will will involve these firely um menway into the design process to make sure that we've covered that that area properly um I'm not sure there there is right in this design a fireplace uh gas it's it's closed um as in the sitting area or lounge area and uh Library area there's outside areas with for the the seating for Cafe and for outside patio area and we are carrying as an alternate out out for pick of all courts very popular it I think we did our first pick ball court about eight years ago since then everybody wants them not every town has the space but fortunately our our two sites have space for that um the other popular thing we don't car it's l Ball but in terms of Life Safety generator interior life safety issues emergency lighting sprinkler emergency cloths and outside lighting that's kind of and your your reques is in to go fire please we appreciate it it it'll get a lot more detailed for you look at down the road that's me I'm done I didn't know if that just a dramatic pause speak up or forever holding and since we have a very long table if everyone can like speak a little bit loudly um for the let think of the length of our room I hope you're was I loud now you I'll get louder good I can't hear we squat sound good to me all right oh good let's nobody's listening back there all right go ahead guys any thoughts you go sure sure so uh Tim Johnson fire sheep also with me is uh deputy chief Jenice scavage along with uh Lieutenant B who fire prevention officer so thanks for inviting us down are we able to you know view it understanding that it's early on in the process um either site would be okay fire upon wi you know whichever one you move forward a couple things like the parking looks great but we can make sure we can provide with the swep turn analysis we will do that how longest wheel based appar we can do that to make sure we can negotiate you know the parking lot and stuff like that we also do typically do mountable curves around corners and yes not only for you guys but for us older drivers don't want to W our TIR no um understand is this evolves like the fire protection systems as you mentioned that's all going to be there well be able to be there through that process um we understand there code to follow we'll just make sure that it hit all those things um some of things that come up too whether there's a BDA meeting an amplifier we make sure our radios are going to work we ask you to do a test yep okay um certainly as things evolve depending on location whether we have to H your location and stuff and we can work in conjunction with the DW with that um then as you already mentioned I think it's a great alternative to like we use the police department uh I guess you call it the rec room out there the room train community room as a heating and cooling station I think this would be a great alternative um where there's if it's a longer duration there's certainly a kitchen they can use if they needed people with functional needs can get in out with these the seniors so that's just some of the notes that I get unless you guys in the back they had anything else to add Jeremy about pretty much cover I quick question on the whole house generator though is that going to be include that elevator yes yeah so that's kind of initial things on the fire side your rated stero is it the one that's labeled 122 um it's I think wall is there stair is there any smoke control system in that as well that rated stairway no it's a 2hour rated with with with v labeled doors that are have self closing um we don't normally evacuate those Wheels we just did a hotel recently stor massive ventilation system because it is an area refe yeah it's not a code requirement but in fact area of Refuge is not even required that we do who we are yeah good point though um I'll go next I just had a couple couple things um appreciate it um you know in general I think both sites are are very uh doable from you know on our end um just the the just the one minor concern just with the uh the turn off onto gron Harvard Road from Washington um it's it's a very short uh span from the from exit from the parking lot to that turn so right there there's a stop sign um that uh for the traffic coming onto Washington and then the cars coming down are free flowing and taking up right so I just like to one one thing you're absolutely right there in fact I think we had looked at offsetting that driveway a little bit farther over a couple of things one is we would probably when we get deeper into this do a little traffic review and decide whether we might want have some kind of warning light that's there the flashes um you know that's on that whole area is on a grve yeah coming down so this is it's all sloping towards BR har we do we do some timing because us older folks need about 20 to 35 seconds more to make a decision to make a leftand turn into the SES that's why we have turning in um away from the because that's the most d dous pulling out you have time to sit there and wait not be nervous about cars coming at you but we've looked at that I think we did one design a little bit earlier when our engineers get involved we'll look at that time frame um from the stop sign sure yeah I mean but it's it's you know I think they're both you know both the plans it was just one of the concerns that I had just the distance between turning uh into a kind of a TR Road area um the um Bishop Road you know just the that plan over there what I noticed on there is that's a flat uh you know stretch there I don't think very any grave issues there when looking up or down entering or exiting um and the traffic uh tends to be rather slower there um on on the Bishop Road when it's open um the on both on both sides just one of the things I know we're early on um maybe in further development is any thoughts of ballards on some of the walkways or we like follows we have okay one of right now our curving as you that's a really good point the curving in front where you come into the building y it's all flush and and we and we set the bards at about um because it's at an angle they're about 6 feet apart they're 250 BS on a steel post because we do people do visit those things know in fact we have one Center where we have an elder who went over the 6 inch curv over 5 foot um sidewalk through six feet of vegetation into the multi so we try now what we do is we actually have Ballers for our handicap signs that that are against building they're different than the big ones we put front of the yeah and they're dective so they they look they look nice yeah and uh I say you know you know when you when you're looking to place those you know we have some um FL looks like some Florida ceiling window areas I mean those would be some Prim areas but have those considered but uh there a part of it and then the only other thing that I just wanted to point out on the Bishop Road one and it's not on this map and you can kind of visualize yeah talk that sure so um I don't really have a good but if you're looking at the Bishop Road map and you look kind of to the bottom left which is Southwest out in that area um is our sludge landfill and next to that is the the police have a firing range and so that is used in yeah a long way yeah it's probably yeah qu mile probably at least a quar mile that that was out there I don't think if you're in the build I don't think you'd hear maybe outside of it because it would possibly come back that direction the sound pickle B it depends on what the Sho yeah you had a question um yeah is it do you mean it's like back towards the way back yeah so if it's like if you holding this it's like over here over there okay all right it's yeah it's pretty far off how often is it used um so it's used uh we do training uh twice a year um spring and fall and then um for new employees um that they have to get initially calleded on so the the major roughness is twice a year for several days um usually it's it's um it could be um the we try to get our officers through in a week's time frame so it's don't that that was the only thing I just wanted to point out that's there um and uh did go out uh yeah you can't hear it and just wanted to make you they to build it down there and like that we okay good thank you and and this is really to help introduce you both and to all of you and where we're going with this um Chief if I could just ask and I understand it's really early in the process but one of the things that has come up is safety concerns and parking lot and and how would video monitoring either in real time or theay in terms of monitoring the parking lot to ensure that you know at the end of the day everybody who was supposed to was left has left so that would the video feed go to the police department or would you be um it I mean I guess the answer could be it could it depends on what you're looking for you know what we're what we're trying to go that's usually something that's kind of really further down in this process but um we just like we do the parks here anybody that lives in the residence sees us we you know we drive through here all the time to check on things but you know uh video feed is much better um to to be actively monitoring it I'm not sure if that's uh you know that's uh feasible um at this point I mean we do have access to other camera sites in the town and then we use them as reactionary like all right what happened we can go back and kind of see yeah if you h somebody's car will'll know when you wor um we often do not provide video in the parking lot um in fact I don't think we have but we did have a town I think it might have been Welsley who added video just more not because of our elders but you know want kids causing hav and that was more for do we have a problem with youth just just to kind of on that doesn't mean it's a no it's just something we haven't done and I think to monitor say like you know our station has many cameras to have a system like that to monitor would probably be probably have to hire a couple other people but I think if we you know if it comes down to je would really like to monitor an exterior camera for the parking lot that's probably something we can look at and have a you know a static monitor for that and I know it is further down the road than we are now I would be curious to look into that the options I professionally have had experience with falls in the parking lot where it was difficult to detect for quite some time that there was a person who need of assistance um with a simple camera yeah so yeah so I wonder there might be a lot of different ways it might not need to be police monitored but to set that up yeah well I caught a bear in my backyard yesterday late at night and I yelled at him and he ran away because we talk through this one last thing about the pickle ball I do know the sound concerns from here or the other places so just I don't know play anything stories all right is a cemetery over on Bishop Road that's a representative of St Mary I will guarantee you have no complaints from the residents there thanks thank you um and actually we also have um online we have Chuck Schultz who's the facilities um director for the town of air as well um Chuck did you want to add anything in at this point uh nothing for me to add at this point it's pretty early on in the Fate stages for any input uh I do appreciate the gentleman when he said keeping proprietary equipment out of the building that's awesome and uh when uh we're further along I'm happy to discuss equipment and um stuff down the road yeah I might comment on that that we do have an exterior storage area adjacent to the entrance or sand or double and and because it's a 2hour rated ventilated space you can also have a small small snowblower in there if you or an electric snowblower if you will um because we found in the past years ago the the entrance um death is became a storage area for all that stuff that's a hazard for M FS coming in out and we actually use the the that area for in interior sit waiting for on a bench in case it's in clate weather for some of you to Pi you up we also have an exterior storage adjacent to the rear Pao area to put away F and we have our service area just so we all know is is separate from the front entrance where if you have Meals on Wheels or you're getting deliveries we keep that separate we highly recommend that the center uses um the large the very large 400 300 gallon containers rather than dumpsters dumpsters are great place for raccoons and bears and and dumpsters usually have an enclosure and they're been about two years of that enclosure gets be up by and we find these things that have the arms pick them up and you can seal the top of them so grass storage is going to come up little with you and the town and Facilities up there screen um but those are issues that I'm sure will come up as we go down the road does anyone on the committee anyone else in the committee have questions for Public Safety while they're here have to sure we got five tons good all right um if there's nothing else and we can let you guys get on with your thank you so much for welcome to stay if you want but it's a lot of fun enjoy it thank you so much and I sure this will be an ongoing conversation as we progress through the various stages question Katie can I ask a question Bob gby yeah go ahead Bobby okay how much will it cost to run the sewer down a Bishop Road and what will be your resulting cost be uh for the uh for the uh uh the senior citizen place the new senior citizen place we're working on it I now yeah are we going to talk about that in a little bit on update on utility cost that's the next item on the agenda 4.5 all right is update utility cost at both sides Bobby all right I didn't hear from the beginning so so um actually next up that we have uh an update on the uh I wanted to provide an update on the school committee and then any updates on the utility cost um before we get to that um larger discussion about um where we are on a site recommendation because that is ultimately our charge as this committee to recommend a site um and then go into the building process so um let's see I uh K and I presented to the school committee last week um and we had the full committee there we had had an initial meeting or two with an individual member but this was the first time we had met with the whole committee um uh Mr penne Town manager was with us as was um a member of the select board um both in Show of support for the project um we presented to them the community uh presentation I've given to date kind of the overview of where we've been um you know how how we've funded what we've got where we are in the sites and the floor plans thus far and then kind of went over what the next steps would be if an asked for their support um I would say I would say went okay um I I think they were largely in support of the idea of a senior center um each one of them had reservations about the placement on their property [Music] um in terms of wanting to keep flexibility and openness of their assets for the school district um some of them it was the first they were hearing of this others they had you know like I said heard um the placement a little bit more adjacent to the practice field so um I I'm trying to get how to summarize it I I don't think there were hard NOS I I don't also think there were any yes this looks like a great idea and you you were there as well how how would you summarize that well I I would summarize it as saying it was a good opportunity to get out and make a presentation to a committee a group um I thought ktie did a nice job I followed it up with a few followup things whatnot um in general I would say they were lukewarm uh as a response the one thing that was surprising to me as well as with Katie was we thought it was going to be a little bit Eed up for us when we went in um and it really didn't appear that way so it was there was some people on the committee that kind of knew where the location was but I would say a majority of them I used to come in into the school property from Washington Street and that particular approach is the one they're familiar with so down the street to the end of that corner was an area that they were not familiar with at all Maybe not maybe didn't realize how far they land went or whatever uh the reason I say that is because some asked where's the tennis courts others asked where's the practice field um hard to read so there was what came out of it was that their willingness for us to um State the property and do a sidewalk which we may or may not get to after tonight the property is state right thank you mat agree that in the future they'd be willing to do the sidewalk but yes I'm not sure um so I did send them some additional imagery and thank you Ken for putting together he kind of melded a Google Maps View a satellite view with the the buildings to try and make it a little with our proposed um layout to try and make it a little bit um easier to recognize exactly the piece that we're on um I did forward that to the admin for the schol committee she said she would Bo it on and let me know if anyone was interested in a site visit or had any questions so haven't heard anything back yet but so do we have any idea on a timeline of when they would make a decision well I I I think no is the the short answer because for some of them it like said it really wasn't teed up in the way that we were sort of hoping that it would have been um so I think it would have to come back up at their next meeting if they wanted it to um for further discussion one is in next meeting they have one scheduled in the middle of September um they seemed open in the meeting to doing a s sidewalk with us but I don't think that they have another mov scheduled until the middle of September when is their lease expiring and when does the town have to go back into negotiations we might be able to avoid all of this if the lease is only another year out and then we come back in and say well the lease is only going to be for this and the town's taking this back and he can circum that the the school board you know I I believe there's it is a lease though I we could always the school board it's a a question worth following up on it's five years um I think longer term from that moment till when we go to town meeting I think it's a better idea for it to be collaborative um than not um not a bad idea just to hang it out that's all I me Le next year or whatever even if it's five years out I do a lot of in stuff there's lots it's like getting a new football player on your team you know you got to negotiate with everybody there was a lot of hesitancy that it would have been it's it's a ways to go with them I was the way I would describe and to use a specific example one of the members said we just had a similar situation recently where the town of Shirley wanted to take a piece of the land um at the middle school property I guess in order to build senior housing and we told them no because we need our land it was de asking oh it was de asking for de asking for sorry um they used to have they gave to show right right but she she said and we said no to them so this would be basically the same thing but for you guys so um that was not the way when I don't think I I think that got voted down it was only like three votes vot got vot the town people voted it down EXA they didn't want that they used it as an examle well so but just as a as a parallel though this process to use to to build here at Bron Harvard Road the school committee would need to approve it as they' need to vote to determine this piece of land Surplus then the select board need would need to as well and then just a town of air um town meeting would need to affirm it so you really could be in the same position where even if the school committee that's you know that's that's the full school committee including the Shirley Representatives correct it's the full school committee but it is a town of air town meeting vote okay I understood it to be only the members of on the school committee but I could be wrong I thought follow um and see did they did you walk them through the legal administrative process you know as we understand it that is we would be able to accomplish this with their with well no or without so they don't understand how that process would unfold over time we told them the basic steps where that I just said that this would be how that would go we would ask for your your endorsement of putting the senior center here your endorsement would be official by your voting this of part of your parcel Surplus it would be followed by the select board who would likely follow the recommendation that this board makes and then it would go for affirmation so they did hear that part in in great in detail I'm pretty sure I as it very nice dis supported right now almost right ready it was a little it was disconcerning that they they weren't ready for us we just thought they would be I guess that was a mistake on our well in I I'm a little surprised to hear that they they they were surprised um but their timeline might be substantially different from our time I mean they may be you know they may be looking at an entirely different calendar for what we're looking at time to do and they did ask what our timeline was and I said well we are meeting on the 28th but I'm understanding now as we're here that you guys are some of you are hearing about this for the first time so I understand if you're not able to vote on that we may not we may or may not vote on the on 28th so um we pretty much use this on the board you know the same one we're looking at right now and demonstrated you know the piece of land was talking about it was a good you know presentation wasn't much misunderstanding it just took just type of issue that they would need to contemplate further I guess if way to think about right do you think that I mean this really kind of messes up up in terms of our time but do you think they'd be more inclined to approve it if we were down in the old site which was along um ring Harvard Road no uh no I think that the the me one of the members we had met with individually said oh I see this has moved like they acknowledged that um but I think the concern was more globally is there a possibility that we would want this there's a field expansion the field expansion another school you know the another school doesn't fit down there but um just a more Global worry about it's mine and I don't want to give it up yeah I've heard that before I I would say my and I'm an outsider here so I'm get into politics of it but there there still is quite a bit of there's there's two pretty large Parcels that are we've gone almost as far away as you can from where they are and in fact we've gone into the retainage part doesn't matter once you give the land it's hard to take it back yeah I know I've seen that well and from their perspective I would suspect that it would be just kind of for each individual member of the school committee especially the Shirley members of the school committee to kind of give up the author give up that level of control I think that to some extent they probably feel like they have some level of control over this entity and are they willing to surrender that control to Outsiders you know non-school affiliate it's under lease though is it it is and I I it's my understanding that at the end of the day we in some sense win the legal argument yeah but we could win the legal argument and lose the political argument and lose the cohesiveness of the Town support even though we are that's extremely important so I you know we may be maybe winning the you know you win the battle but you lose the war yeah I think there's a lesson here too for all of us C certainly your committee and all the work you've been doing and getting this presentation together how important it is to uh I don't want to use word statement but you have to soften up the opposition by getting them on board and getting understanding where we're going ahead of time that's really true to our our our town citizens to to start letting them know that this is heading in this direction and let's get your inut you know talk to us you like we have right here on our our screen we have a good group we have a ni a larger group today here but we have to start doing some some PR work if you will you might have wanted to do that three or four months ago if we knew this was going to happen we should have probably talked to them they're the ones it's their land under their jurisdiction we might have wanted to talk to before we go all these elaborate designs and talk about brh road if we have to wait till the end of September and they say no so they got a 5 leas whatever we have another site so maybe we kind of lean off that other site road we move on to Bishop we G move I think we should that's my vote right now let's get the numbers together I think you guys we don't know that committee at all we got shirely involved I mean I just think we should because they're part of the schools committee I think we I think the important thing is that we had a good meeting as I said it was a good presentation and on board with the concept they would definitely support a senior center right right the other thing that's good about it is in our task is this group is we have to take these steps to get to our solution so in any event we this was one of two pieces that were left that we had to to look at closely we even mentioned to them that we they were we were fortunate enough to do the testing out there and the testing was good and I was surprised at that they they had done previous testing and been giving us the pl about other testing that they were done and you know was done by gentl from the DPW at the time um anyway the only ass show of it is that we've gone through the steps we took the we took the steps we needed to do we're shaking it out keep moving all I can do we have been talking to the school department prog several months Haven we well so there I would say the town manager has spoken to the superintendent on multiple occasions about the project from that level it is not at all um a surprise and then you know we had um a meeting with the superintendent um let's see that was Dan you and I were there and yeah a couple months ago several months ago yeah we you know that when we first learned what's the process for the disposition of the land oh you have to go through this me so that's when we approach Dr Renda started right so it it's all of the the levels and I agree with what you're saying you know you have to involve the various levels of folks as you go along the process um so the school committee is certainly not the last stop along that but that was the next progression of of that involvement he he doesn't have intermediate meetings with them doesn't talk to them I I presume he does it sound like they weren't totally aware of that I don't know I wasn't there it was even a mention of the fact that there's I think even a subset maybe called the school building committee that they mentioned or another subset of the school committee that may be involved with when they look at long-term planning they ask another group to get involved something like that so there was a number of different levels maybe even Beyond just the school committee itself oh a other than on the school committee right the school committee exists the sub to the school committee there might be a building committee or a building advisory committee or something like that so they mentioned that so they would have to go reach out to them long-term planning is is complicated right so so I get yeah and as we discover in more layers then you know we could choose as a as a committee whether we want to go down that road and pursue those additional layers or whether um you know like Jim said that we want to just move forward with it if it doesn't but surely doesn't have a vote on this right it's it's the air group so the Shirley Representatives on the and I'm going to clarify this but my understanding was that the Shirley Representatives on the school committee do have a vote on that and I believe it's three and three right three representatives from each and they don't don't you want don't you want an they don't do people was around like this okay all right but they don't do weighted voting right now so everybody has it's not proportionate based on enrollment it's each school committee member has an individual vote so um so I guess that's the the question doesn't have to be answered in this moment we can you can think about it in five minutes from now in five minutes from now after we get the update consider right whether we want to um because I I foresee a situation where we either need to make a plan to really jump in and educate and Advocate and all of that or we don't all right um so in terms of the utility cost we want to give an update sort of on just that alternate conversation what potential steps sure yeah so I'm from the DPW so was a couple weeks ago I was working with a National Grid distribution design engineer on the West Main Street Bridge Project and so I brought up the um Senior Center project over on Bishop Road in that site just to pick his brain and I said you know we're trying to figure the cost here I met with a electrical engineer from tyan Bond and he told me to conservative carry a million dollars and he says postco he see anything from two times to four times what he normally used estimate and so you I explain the whole scope to him um you know he'd said he said we'll require these many poles this the type of service you'd need repay power etc etc you know just ballpark anecdotal talking he said he didn't see it being more than in the low hundred of thousands of to bring power to the site so the next step there so I mean that's good news that's a distribution low hundreds of thousands is it 100,000 200,000 I would say like three or 400 yeah three to four say some around there so the next step you know to get and rather than just a conversation I have off the cup with a design engineer would be to you know put together a work request through National Grid and work with him oh you asked him to do that right I don't think we've moved forward oh that move forward I don't think it's move forward allquest but um but that would be the next step and then I could I have this guy's contact so I could tell them hey here's the work request number can you take this one and then you know try to expedite the the work request and and he knows exactly what we're trying to do we're not doing formal project at this point it's just hey we need to pick so um so that's briefly the update on the electrical so there the overhead I'd say that's good news um he did say that you know that cost was inclusive of everything Transformer HS wiring Etc that's what he typically would see they throw on generator for us um yeah well that's that's surprising I so are you going to be the individual that reaches out to to this gentleman I can formally oh we asking someone else I don't know if you guys want because I was thinking you had your year but we don't get him involved until we get in final and okay so you're agreeing that you're going to do that yeah I can uh I can do that thank you now if there's the cost involved we have a budget so there's no apprehension if they have design fees and what not if they come back and say it's 10,000 we're just going to spend the 10,000 well then yeah i' bring that back to the committee but we um yeah I guess that out at that time I mean I I think if I can get this to my the engineer I talk to you might be a just put something together for you know I'm not we're not looking for a full-blown design at this point you know let's get this conceptual get fost I think yeah we need something that adds to the numbers that we put together and that's what I among other ones so my other question about that is um timing you know being part of the energy sector I see how long it's been taking to connect you know simple things like you know solar panels and you know and um and so my question is um can we get a timeline for uh when they can do that when how how long would take extremely important point because I can tell you right now we have jobs that are 95% complete with no power because we can't get National Grid to show up and those are jobs that gone on for 16 months without National Grid showing up so it's a really it is critical because what you're talking about is is serious expansion that road what is it half a mile or [Music] something yeah about a half a mile and we have a hard time getting National Grid to show up with a Transformer so I I you know it's it's in your discussion it would be great to say you know right now it's still hypothetical but we're talking about if we get through town meeting we're talking about wanting you to start this as soon as approvals are done because it's going to take us 6 months or so to get the drawings together another two months to bid it and we want National Grid coming along the road there so that's one of and I and I know you're right it takes a while to tee that up for them and I know that we've also had a real problem even postco of getting Transformers from anywhere you know it's just really bit yeah yeah it's really a supply chain issue for the still is still is in fact I I was made to a minute I was sitting in a bar one night for dinner and the guy next to me ran a warehouse for National Grid and Andel Mass I think North Andel saying we don't have any FR stormers and we've got everybody screaming for them and this was four weeks ago so it it still is a us so we would want if Bishop is the selection and again if Bishop Road is the selection then we would want to try to ensure that as soon as that becomes clear and and the town meeting boat is held everything is teed up to tell National Grid go I don't agree with that I want to do it right now do it right now yes but don't we want to Advantage for National Grid if they're willing to work with us to get that out on that street so we have to make a different case so can would a would a vote of the committee be necessary to allocate sufficient funds if if required do we want to do that yeah I think and again I have no idea what that number might I don't know if that's 10,000 or 4 I mean I have no idea what that number might be you're going to be paying for the engineer you're not going to pay for the installation if they charge you for the design that's what you have to get over first you have to get into the queue yeah into the system an engineer because back charge the design and then they'll charge you I know 10 15 20,000 design so you've got the design but you haven't given him the order yet but if you you're willing to pay for the design they'll probably go do yeah Park Street we had a grant and we in National had the design undergrounding the elect it was 15 probing at something like that okay so do we want to approve this expenditure of those funds or do we need to approve we can do this on our Authority so we're back to that a little bit of a chicken and an egg thing so I think what we would want to do is now that we have the utility cost update the school committee now I think we need to have a a broader discussion about are we ready to choose site and are we choosing a site and then we would have action items aot of we have others no I know I guess that's what I'm saying is I think we wouldn't know whether we the action item was related to the school committee or the action item was related to authorizing spending until we have finished that discussion so sorry that's right you ready um you want I just give a quick update for to the audience I know Bob Gardner you would ask for the cost for sewer so and back in July I did produce a memo for the committee for the costs for waste water and water and we were carrying for waste water we were going to do septic we did look at gravity to sewer it's it's too far and costly so septic would be around $9,000 you carrying and for water um I did a a a designed cost for that and we're looking at around half a million dollars to bring it out there at a minimum so there's your sewer and water gas is also um dist um 1,600 to 2,000 ft away and so we factored in not bringing gas to the site but that would that would that would add to the base cost of of this of the total project step would go on to this number and um water would be Town cost or we we added it would be we we not we wouldn't design their water I think the town would do a lot with time we can do that yeah we don't do long distance utility yeah you could yeah time B that's the specialty you don't want to pay us to do that um and then um for gas though propane then would be and we'd probably have yeah two 1,000 tanks TS or something one other thing I didn't mention earlier with the overhead is that and Ken sort of alluded to it is um it does benefit National Grid to extend their utility out because potentially that there could be future TI um or or you know any usage they have if they had Soul or something tit but anyway um so there's sometime are rebates for that so I'm trying to find out if there'd be any rebates as part of our our project to Extended kick back some money to you in order for that extension so I make can I clarify um what you just said Mr Catlin yes ma'am um you had said um there would be added cost to the project of propane is that what is that what we're talking about since there was no G well it depends who your supplier is some suppliers will we normally would like to see the tanks they're on the ground tanks is what we recommend and if you go under ground tanks those are in for the long term they're espcially designed for that um generally your supplier doesn't do that we usually end up with two or three tanks um but your supplier may help subsidize that if they get a contract so propane is supplied by an independent supplier unlike natural gas you paid whoever gas company colia gas so can we get some sort of estimate of that yeah I'll look into that so just just to clarify go and talk to John I I'll call there's a local company in town L very good friends of mine I can I can take it off your plate and I can call them tomorrow get a rough number to and I'm going to ask my I'll ask a r of thumb for my engineer for this building but probably two 1,000 gallon tanks be since my house has a th000 gallon tank and I I charge charge through that pretty quickly unfortunately y Bobby did oh yeah did you hear the response regarding water and sore yeah I did okay I did all right I just wanted to make sure we answered the question at you over here yeah thank you from here s didn't get dressed up no yeah to the robot go ahead okay um do we have any ongoing accounting about how much money we have left from the funds that we've been given um um both from the grant that t got and the ones we got from the um um Selectmen for this project so um that totaled about three and I will that's a good I will put together an official um budget report for the next meeting but um spit calling it was about [Music] $375,000 and the only bills we have paid out thus far um have been um see about 45,000 so uh does that include the fees right yeah we're paying a l I'm honestly not charging enough poten appreciate that okay yeah saying we use our guarantee contract real contract so um the contract with Catlin is for 100,000 and and we have the I believe it's 3 it's either 365 or 375 and I will bring that number but that's all we have paid out is um is for this as we're progressing Along on contract for K so I I think there's plenty of funds to do that with absolutely um did we set with Dan's update um yeah and I just want to clarify that when we get to the cost estimate more detail but to clarify it includes the normal and then we talked about utilities at Bishop Road being above and beyond that so um yeah and that ties up utility um so that that brings us to the further broader discussion of the sites and whether we're ready to make a recommendation so at our last meeting you know I went around to everybody and said do you have the information you need to make to make a recommendation to take that vote and everyone said they did and now we have some additional information based on the school committee um based on the cost um and based on utilities updates so so that's why I wanted to clarify that this cost estimate we can go into the cost estimate in more detail in a moment but that cost estimate is the same for both sites aside from um the greater utility costs at Bishop Road which we're not sure how much greater they are we just there's some greater possibly numbers I've heard today about 990,000 right so that's give or take you know because it's very preliminary yeah and I'm not doubting I I do believe that our propane should not ultimately shouldn't cost us anything um there might be some issues about who owns the tanks ground probably belong to a maybe they're $10,000 but it's not a big the big number is water and and and and to be fair about it utility sound like we going to get some kind ofj you know you know they may want it they may want to run the line down the street at their cost which would be huge for us it's that's possible I have one thing just to follow up on uh tomorrow morning 8:00 the pl wood including myself was is meeting at the substation at the corner of Bishop Road with National Grid they us with a proposal to upgrade the substation uh and and basically that's the amazingly enough 1932 that thing was built it's almost 100 years old it's the oldest substation I guess in town um so they're doing pretty big oldo drums yeah um so that's another opportunity for me to try to find out if the right engineer unless you want to join us Storrow I'm not sure but it's 8:00 I have another conflict but you it just going to give us another chance to talk to somebody there is a they do you know how it goes this branch is going in every direction there is a branch that goes to miss fishop and then turns back towards Par Street yeah so they're already two the section where it crosses the tracks it just doesn't goes in the other direction as they loop around the substation so we'll try to get another name in anything we can to determine and then they are represented by um who's their Engineers BC I think is the engineer for good outfit real good outfit so they do all the National Grids work BC pretty much all these expansions it's is huge engineering I can't afford that so we'll have a chance to Dr B chit I'm maybe get some more to you now think of it I remember when we met with EV they talk about that triangle piece they talked about piece using that for some kind of electrical up his longterm plan looks at potentially going down Road as well she has a question up here I think she has a question yes waiting for yeah I think we're I think we I know we took one comment already but if it's a point of clarification great the only clarification I had is last meeting there was discussion about possibility for a grant for for the electric yes oh yeah we just talked I just sure that that was on the agenda yeah we're okay um all right um um so to our broader discussion do people feel like they're ready to vote to recommend a site do we feel like there's still more information unfolding uh s of the room that they call it poing the table all right ping the table without vot I'm I'm I'm ready to vote especially in light of I was very I mean I I had virtually all the information last we in light of the two substantial pieces of information which have come in tonight that is that the school the the administrative legal walkth through with the schools district might be more timec consuming and cumbersome than we had initially conjectured combined with some probability that there will be lower utility costs at Bishop roow than we had initially kind of considered um I mean those two pieces are very information kind of confirm my initial thoughts about where we should go and I'm prepared to vote okay well my problem is I was leaning towards the um the side of Washington Street in large part because of the difference in um utilities and you know costs because I'm getting worried about how things are mounting up um but I agree that the the situation with the school department does not sound good and um if it passes at all it could take a very long time um so and it sounds like the cost at um Bishop Bishop Road is going to be less than anticipated so you know I guess I feel like that's the only choice at this time I'm ready to go for Bishop Road I'm not I you know I think that we there's too much uh that we don't know you know we don't we don't really know where the school committee stand and we you know I really am concerned about not only the the utility costs of Bishop Road but also the the length of time that it might take us to you know to get the the power there so I you know I'd like more information you know i' like to do some due diligence on getting a commitment from National Grid as to you know about how long it's going to take and how much it's going to cost um you know before I would I guess before I would vote tradition I'm ready to vote um and I'll reserve my comments to when we make the motion and whatnot okay Jim uh I'm ready to vote just I'm ready folks okay yeah um I kind of agreed with with Ellen kind of the alternative has swayed you know with the way the school committee went toward the Bishop Road Site um alternative to that we don't have any other sites at this point unless you start look at privately which is going to cost something so never mind the utility cost um so I think at this point vote to from where we are today okay um I would say I'm I'm probably ready to vote as well um like Ellen I I guess I can hold my com I um you know I it's it to me it's a whether I W to have the big piece of the public education and input be about the added cost of the utilities or whether I want the additional public education and input to be about convincing folks that we don't that nobody actually really does need that piece of land for something else and one of them the utilities costs feels more cut and dry and less emotional or sentimental to me than the school districts future needs um but I think those are the two things because if we go with a proposal that's too expensive you risk you know a no voted town meeting in if you go with something that is meer down in issues that you really can't impact you're also run the risk of getting a no voted town meeting I'll make a motion okay I'll make a motion that the senior Senate site selection and bilder committee choose the Bishop Road site as the recommended location for the new Senior Center second second all in favor I I I all opposed I no yeah yeah um the chair says I so um that motion passes so I make i' like to make a few more comments oh sure absolutely yeah and we already voted but should have done it before the vote oh the one of the things that swayed me about Bishop Road not the least of which was the utilities was a little birdie called me and said that if I was a developer which of course I was I work for developers which side would you pick and the logic is immediate because when you take the school piece even when we get that triangle of land that would be it but if we can get the town behind this on Bishop will we can open up an opportunity for other uses other than the sen Center and the land at Bishop Road we walked it fortunately the DPW gave myself and my partner Jonathan permission to walk it from the opposite direction so we didn't have to go through the fence that land is magnificent there are Trails out there there's so many opportunities for seniors to we could develop an entire easy trail system the grades of all workable it's been it's it's basically beautiful material so I think we're going to gain on construction costs at the end of the day which will help offset the utility costs because a site contractor can go in there and move material and dig whatever they have to do and ra very easily there's a lot of material it's very usable so there's potentially a savings which is unknown to us right now that we can't even budget just in moving material on and off the site so if we were to work up at the school and we found that all the material is delarius of some sort I can't be we'd be hauling in everything gravel Stone you know everything we need to compact to build and build parking locks and all this other stuff MH that won't probably be a necessity down there so there there's probably an offset to the cost we can't even anticipate that will be an improvement but the other thing is even working with National Grid at the school may not be as costly but we still have the potential of a Slowdown anytime you work with National Grid even if you have to go from the street to a building you still have to go through National Grid so I'm not sure how far John's example was but was the utilities close by did you're still waiting for yes they're all right there exactly so what's my my point I didn't want to make that point before but you could get delays from National Grid even if it's right behind you yeah the delay there is Transformer not building so but is the potential delay involved with all Poss so we can't foresee all that but I think we have enough Talent around this table to manage some of these things and I feel confident that we can get that done and figure out a way to get it over there and I think there's a lot of potential there for more than even Senior Center you know so much more can be done great location and as I have had conversations with various people through um throughout this process you know the office of Economic and Community Development has said and their various members has said that um they are excited about that idea that they think that's a win for the town in general that's obviously outside the scope of our committee yeah um but um they did mention that to me as well thank you for that I think we gained security too because it f it's already fenced so so I think that would that fence move that's either here or there but the fence is around the perimeter of that parcel it's actually it was put there as part of when we when the town got the property from the Army so was requirement of that to keep the army so um so I guess we would have to obviously make sure it's symbiotic with the brush dump and everything way that works yeah you know I have a question is is the DPW going to get territorial about this we have I mean out here I don't just rough shot over that guy I'm not so sure whe she's so in terms of the I know that Devin has has been one to work with in this regard and have spoken about moving gate or having the gate moved what would be the next process for moving the gate down to the down to the triangle what what needs to happen so I actually reached out to them they haven't done anything yet they they're supposed to have a meeting with fisheries and wildlife uh National fisheries and wildlife to see if they can move it all the way to the triangle because right now they could technically move it to the border of the Oxo National Wildlife Refuge which is forther pest the existing rush but it's not quite to the triangle I see so so that that has to happen that meeting and it hasn't been set up and I actually reached out to John Marell from De the other day and they're working on it but I just got keep I mean I think that anytime I mean depending on the weather obviously but anytime between now and the spring I mean I don't know when the flighting is most likely to occur but I wouldn't anticipate it's going to occur in the next several months do we um they want to they're going to do it to do it does this property abut the national wildlight yes to the West so we're going to have some special oh there is um and there's Wetland permitting too because that's W no we're too far for the Wetland no no if your property touches Wetland does it no sure what's this flooding out River with the river that's not not Jason we're not adjacent to any SS no oh good there's rare species what we got is natural heritage and eological issues on that's you found a couple of SCS but people state record show is a formal Gravel Pit when it was the army they they they've escalated around push even though that's true hopefully there's been [Music] no um Native material found around the side because we've run into some real you they come out of the woodwork when you you have one of those things are we going to delineate exactly which which is our sight so so we avoid you know the question of being adjacent to good question you have to have that through the register of DS okay um is this site on an part of an AC it's in an AC and so is that going to require additional an application I don't think it has a me but um I don't think it add a had an enf bu I don't think it triggers that but it does trigger priority habitat species which go to division fishies of wildlife state level and I actually have a I had set up a meeting kind of a pre consultation with them to ask the site that's been a couple weeks from now just other things Ellen asked a great question um when we we're going to try to get the land from the high school we were told we would have to break that off as a lot so that's an F will not required loot it's got free charch so e lot to break off it may be a huge advantage to us to create a lot here and making sure that lot stays away from the other it's outside the buffer zones it's outside I don't know how ppw SB feel about that if we in essence Creator are that would buffer us your land would be between us and the Fisheries yeah I think we do have to do that's a step here is to de we have to find our here here function but it would be poti a big advantage to do then we the engineer on our land on our really good question do we have a do we have a clear understanding of process required to acquire the lot that is break a lot off we know what we know do you want to make that explicit now so that you know it's a simple question hiring a local civil engineer who's already surveyed the land we have all the documents already all the perimeters documents from the Army have been given to DPW so everything is there all the meets and mounds Dimensions the front is there survey available the whole we need that well what I'm getting has be advantageous to us to break out a lot now we do a survey of a lot yeah and we're not surveying the whole the whole place so these would all be like next steps we all getting into you know we didn't vote the site but these are the considerations right okay I'm fine oh I'm agree with everybody okay are you Al say anything about sites yeah I mean I like the School site and I I still think you should probably shat it up with the school a little bit more but I you know um I just like its location within town in terms ofall Town um one of the things is that often and we're not subject to this I think this committee has been very good about finding SES that are not throw away SES and I we work a lot in oh we have this old school we we abandoned let give it to the seniors and it's in a terrible location or whatever it um these are both pretty decent sites I just have to like the Harvard brought one because it was flotation um and uh and it's although as the police chief said or we're kind of near an intersection but what's interesting about is because if you know where the school is you know where the senior C is yeah if you you never heard of Bishop Road and the back access to to it takes a while to figure that out um it took us a bit to find D DPW where this guy Liv um and then we watered up through we came up this road this way and it's beautiful um I am very concerned about adjacent permits they get very complicated you allow to be concerned and also we seem to recall there are some Wetlands over here somewhere and it seem to be part of the same parcel that the town HS it' be very important to separate and we don't have any veral pools nearby because those those have been the main of our existence in Massachusetts New Hampshire they don't seem to care about veral pools down here we we have for good reason so um and and the other thing is that you mentioned the word sludge or something I way yeah that's far away it's like a quarter mile or more sludge yeah yeah are we uphill or downhill from flat so flat River and the last thing was that I do know that we discussed why we don't have we're not going to have a well we going to bring water in is that there are some subsoil contaminations um it should not be a problem for the user groups U you know we often do Gardens things like that um do you know of anything else that that deons might have done to us well uh we would probably recommend the town to do a 21e 21 we we did a job just recently where1 massive yeah have to break the lot off for to say yeah break the lot off but I would recommend it because what what happened in um in Wang metal is that they discovered that the lot they picked for a different use group that we're were're parallel with the BPW they discovered that the previous owner rather properly disposing anpress is BU report so we just we we do believe DPW didn't do that but I highly recommend once we Define the line let's not we can't afford a surprise so what's a 21 it's an environmental a we do only a preliminary one they do history on the site they'll do a little bit of testing here and there but it's not a deep it's not a environmental yeah you could probably do a prary phas one just a exercise yeah it's really research of the site right and Devin will pop up as an issue they'll they'll site yeah but it's really worth doing it I I I can tell you it was a $2.5 million mistake long well but we're not in Long well right okay yes we're in a I just blame that on you yeah I didn't do that site um I one thing I wanted to mention about the bishop Ro when we first moved here I was um uh interested that we were lucky because we're in um Autumn Ridge which is across from the hospital and that they always plowed in front of the hospital and down Washington Street past the school that was always the first thing Cloud ex seemed to me and I I was able to follow that route to get down to the um train station but if I went off that route to try to get parking then I was very likely as late as 9 and 10 in the morning to hit snow covered roads and I was wondering since not many people use Bishop Road if we're going to be able to confirm that that road will be plow he's going personally plow yeah it does get plow by De I mean I'm sure we especially if this was down there it's but the road is currently the win by I think you have to wored less about the road and more about the Senior Center parking lot than anything else yeah and and I have to say that air has the best snow removal yes we want to move on the building I love I love your guys they come down and angle it away from my house and push all the snow to the other side of the street for me all right so it sounds to me like we have a couple of action items following up on Bishop Road um that include um asking Town Council about the not just the process but the advantages of um parceling that lot off first before we start talking about abing issues and uh environmental um and all of that so um are there any other action items for our next meeting that would I mean we've already talked about it but the utilities especially National gr and um on on the um water is our DPW are we capable of doing that or we have to um contract that out it's going to be for construction contracted but you guys have been designing those kinds of things in the past we can design where's the last side on on Bishop Road there you know on Bishop it's yeah it's over the east side the railroad tracks you do have to go under the railroad tracks if we tie into our syst should we start an RFP for the surveying get an RFP out and get that lined up so that we have the surveyor so when Town Council says the blessing we've already got the guy picked and we don't have to wait another 90 days I just even if we the lot up a lot would matter it just do it could be used by the DPW and definitely if nothing happens you just signed another shape to all you so there's there's nothing lost in deciding take a four chunk out or something like that we talking like a six inch or8 inch L yeah yeah how many what's the span on a hydrant what's span hant so what do you think from where that is on the other side of tracks to where the site is what are we talking 12 I looked I I have that in my I don't know if I have it in that memo but I did calculate that it was all part of my background proved I think it was 1600 I want to say it Wast 2100 ft you had it's 2100 to Bishop right I think it's, 1600 to deons that's seven do we know which one is preferable or do we know was the shorter one the one that you thought best or is the preferable one is to take it all the away so there's a loop yeah you don't want to De end that's the problem that's another thing I mean I can I think I think regarding utilities if we said 90 grand into a septic 95 something like that okay yeah it's going to cost way more than that to run sewage from from so we gotta go SE I think we're leaning towards propane and I'll get a quote tomorrow and see what that's going to cost for two 1,000 gallon tanks correct two 1000 okay now we need I think our biggest dilemma we all agree is going to be National Group absolutely I think everything else is I think everything else be pretty smooth you know your mouth the God all right turn it over to you to present the preliminary project I do want to you probably say this but I do want to clarify for the the public record for the committee people here this is just like our floor plans it is the first draft it will move it will shift um so there what what you need to do I'll pref that thank you for saying that it it is definitely a draft I've listed what I think are possible add alternates whenever we bid a project we have a list of add alternates because our job is to come within very close to the marketing to the cost estimate and what we do is that we have this very preliminary process which is done very conservatively I want to be very careful about it there's nothing worse than coming up with a low number and turning around to the town and say I'm sorry it's $3 million more so this is pretty conservative um I say pretty because we're still in a very inflationary period for construction you know one of the things that you know you often hear over the radio is that inflation has come down it's it's it's reducing it's still inflation it's still inflating and we're still inflating very rapidly not so much on the general consumer goods right now but in the construction industry so what I've done here is I've got one two I don't know why this I I I had this labeled by numbers so I'm sorry I printed it out without the numbers having um I have one two three four four suggested add alternates I included those in the total cost assuming that the desire would be is to get all the alternates but we often when we bid it you might only get two of them we have to list them in the order we wanted uh to to meet the budget um and um so you go down the line we have the basic building it's 14,450 feet we have it at uh uh with with the U add alternates added to it 11, 751 divided by that square footage gives us a number of about $813 a square foot reminding you everybody including the public this is public bid so we pay what our wage rates are very different than if you and I we're going to build a garage in our house uh we're paying Carpenters all in 100 bucks an hour when I build my garage I'm paying 35 $40 mon if I can get a deal um so we're we're paying very high rates because it's it's part of the public F process um I carry a contingency of 5% because it's new constructions if it was going to be renovation I carry close to 10% If It's Complicated new construction I carry 7 a half% I feel both sides were pretty clean sides from the the information that we did from sub soil investigations later on in the process if it's approved through town meeting we will do deep um uh drilling to verify what we found out in the first 10 feet of so I don't expect a problem of that but because we didn't hit water table which is really important um and that be very helpful in our septic design septic this number I don't have any utility costs that we just discussed those this site as the other I have what would be normal utility cost coming from nearby street so and and what is that number normally it's in the number what's that it's in the number it's in the overall cost it's in the we don't carry a separate number yet you will get a separate number get detailed but we can't do that we didn't okay yeah we have it for Bishop because there's nothing there right and this one we're just going to the street no I understand and my purpose was for the public consumption that is I wanted to be able to subtract out what the utility cost at G and Harvard from that number so that when asked by public what's the difference we still have very similar costs they bring the power to us from the street we take it from the street to us yeah we bring the water to us we bring water to so it's the same cost I got to bring in 6 in line through sprinkler domestic what have you it's that's in both sites assuming utilities are on Bishop Pro which we're working by those utilities costs were to bring it down the road for bu on either site you would have had from the street into the building I see okay so so it's still in that number the only one that we don't don't have is sewer right and Sewer bringing it into the site probably is you know 89,000 bucks and we've got a 990,000 plus minus septic system so it might be be 880,000 or 85 I'm sorry no all right I understand thank so the owner's contingency and I can tell you from our experience I'll record this we rarely go over a percent and a half of the owners can reive in terms of unforeseen issues or maybe errors and omissions errors and omissions usually run about a quarter of a perc it's is very low um Court say 5% is fine I I don't consider that fine so we carry 5% we might end up using two two and a half% of that that leftover money can go into Furnishings or whatever if you have it left over but it's we're trying to be reasonably conservative right now I can wait to the end but sure so you it's interesting when you put the owners contingency before the other list of War so it's only contingency on the Top Pot yes and I'll comment later on the rest yeah we sometimes carry a design see but I carried our I carried a number of numbers here that I feel are conservative and I I didn't want to fill it up with too many oend um so we have architectural engineering owners project manager which I ched from the last one I was informed that opms and by the way the town may have on staff an OPM but sometimes do but they have to be pretty full-time um 3 3% is usually what that number is the we we do a cost estimate almost without fail in every Community we work in the OPM does a a parallel cost estimate and their estimate usually runs a little bit lowers ours runs around 75,000 but then they put them together as we we do a 30% 50% 90% cost estimate to feel the pulse of where where the projects going and we make adjustments as we go along to stay within the stated budget that we're working on I'm I'm sorry don't really understand that what the OPM cost estimate so it's the project manager cost estimate yes I mean so in addition to paying project manager we have to pay him to create a cost estimate yes $50,000 noral cost cost 75,000 they look at every n it's it's probably 25 pages long very detailed they do complete takeoffs how many few sheet rock steel how tons of steel rebars concrete doic yards the whole Sur installation um and if you want I at the next meeting I'll bring a typical cost estimate or I'll send it over you okay it's uh it has to be very detailed because we need to come as close as possible it's my my my only really sleepless nights are for b um building commissioning we always recommend that that varies we've we've we've seen it as high as 60,000 as low as 30,000 put 45 Grand we should be able to give in building commissioning is um uh they review all of the waterproofing Roofing um we we we look at we do tests on the windows to make sure they don't leak both the number one cost for a building today running it is air infiltration building commission we're watching a most bidder build the building and we have to stay on them so commissioning is a really important part of it so the so the building commissioner or the building commissioning done by inspects the the quality of the construction to make sure that everything fits tightly in yeah from the view point of what they're looking for which is integrity of the building yeah and very it's a very important role there we would we would have the town engage that through the OPM because the opum represents you right and you're and to some extent I'm asking these questions because we as a committee will have to go before the town and help them understand why it is that we got to this number and I can easily imagine anybody on the floor a town meeting asking these questions as to why does why do we need this and why is it so expensive I'll help to find that he's gonna be I'll help you yeah I'll help you find that too but John so you got building commissioning is 45,000 then get out one more I mean two more you got Clerk of the works who I believe the clerk of the works I worked for them before they work they're our they're on our side correct yes they work can't he that c Works can't look out for that or is that commission yeah I can tell you I've had Highly Questionable clerks I would not building commission is done by a really top half engineering firm the clerk is a guy who's if he does his job heard does a job properly you'll you'll be looking at the drawings a week ahead of time knowing what's coming up next and seeing that it's being done for the drawings and specifications okay we've had clerks that have not done that properly and we've had a lot of but the clerk generally is hired through the OPM or you can hire them in what's the difference between I mean roles of the o I'm sorry I just you know the the roles of the OPM and the cler of the works well two things one is the OPM is required by law and then you can drop over I 500,000 100,000 and we're all over that so the state mandate set I'll tell you why because a lot of towns think they've run the job and they get into a huge hassle between the contractor the architect and what they think it should be and the and there's been lawsuits up all over the place until they started the OPM I'm not a big fan of the OPM a good architect do that job but there's lots of Architects who are not particularly good that so and also you can get into a hostile situation and the OPM has his contract directly with the town not through the architect and the clerk either works directly from the town or through the op depends who you have through the how do you feel about it um and there are good ones and there are Highly Questionable ones and we might situ no OPM is not loaded OPM is professional so like Architects opms they present their credentials you pick the best one and that's what you go with and then you get a price or you you carry a budget say this is my budget hopefully you can do it for that um we one OPM that worked in the town of hoor hired them and they paid him more than they paid The Architects which was very embarrassing since he didn't do the drawings and had no liability right yeah um but that was her choice um final drawing review that's a structural review um it's required um often done you hire an we can make some recommendations but you hire an independent struct Comm he looks at the drawings um you know Mike make some comments U generally they charge between 8 12,000 I think you can pay more than 10 you pay too much so John where I interrup where's our building our building inspector where's he come in on this he's going to expect this in different stages right oh yeah absolutely so who when he gets when we this is off the track our village Pi shows up whatever he does yeah who's he going to meet you meet the clerk The Works he GNA who's he going to meet when he's there there then he meets general contractor okay and if there's ever an issue the requirement is to no meeting and that's Clerk's job too if clerk sees a problem he doesn't go running you although he's welcome to tell you that he has to come to us we we're The Architects of record so we're we're we have the liability on this project so we they come to us we we discuss it with you as committee or whoever you have running your OPM and so they they time there is any changes or notion in the field by anybody other so the specifications that your final drawings are sacent and no changes can be made without asking that is neither the OPM nor the click of The Works nor the building commissioning can change anything without and the specs are about there are two volumes about this B some of it's grow a lot of it's specific and uh and the reason for that because what happens is a change order appears out of nowhere AR cont well you know the clerk told me to do this or the old but somebody on the committee told me here's your bill no no we go through that you don't want that we don't want that who runs the monthly meetings or weekly meetings on the job we we run it with the oium we we often work it out with the OPM who represents you so be with your committee we'll say who's taking the notes the last job they had a terrific young manager on it uh Rebecca yeah she was great and she ran she I think she was a marine Ro Sergeant she ran the committee and her her notes were perfect I wrote my own notes we compared them she issu do we always write our own but but who formally does it it'll be worked out at the time since most of these folks hav't built the pro like this and I agree with what John said about the liability so it's typically under the section of code called control construction yes so responsible sending reports consistently on a regular basis to the building commission and then architect is responsible for signing off on the schedule of values of the AIA schedule whatever we call it for the uh monthly bills and things like that yeah we have to certify the payment price we ask the OPM we ask opm's opinion on it too I mean the OPM will will tell us we will review it and say we don't agree with these things we talk to the contractor he said okay you know I realize I'm charging more than I should have done and then we we we rule on it but we give it to the OPM next who represents you before we certifi it to the contract okay and generally we've not had many issues with pay with us most contractors we don't because the price is so high why would they have a problem I I don't getting paid more than our argument over him was you're getting 11.9 million what are you complaining about I wanted 12 to yeah that's what I'm complaining about so um going down the line here construction testing we Prest all the concrete I don't care we're pouring it we we ask for testing on that we have specific requirements 4,000 PSI for sidewalks 5,000 for something outside 3,000 whatever so we have and you you get somebody like us us testing you know you hire them and they they they get notified by the contractor we're pouring concrete today or we're doing asphalt they check temperature of the asphalt they check pression of it they go all that stuff so testing is really important that number can vary a lot we're carrying 35 brand bidding and advertising has gone way down from what it used to cost because we do it electronically we usually use bid bid docs.com and they've been excellent and that therefore you're not killing a lot of trees you don't everything goes out digitally and sometimes they'll ask for set wheel tell them print your own so that's a pretty generous number for test that so testing is our our Geotech drilling we drill we drill sites in specific areas similar to our test pits and um we go down 21 ft or to refusal IE we get L for a rock um and and then we need a site called graphic survey which we're carrying a number for that because we don't have one yet and we would like to get one on board and you can either keep it in this number or put it take it out do it yourself same 25 it we're assuming we're surveying three to four acres you know toal graphic fre Etc I think yeah we're carrying Furnishings fixes and Equipment this is not kitchen stuff that's all the kitchen's completely outside of that that's in the Bas okay and that's 100 Grand probably so this is all your depends what we need my kitchen R so the kitchen is in the 11198 number yes FF is Furniture um you know ping pong tables like ball nets whatever coolers the beer disturb water coolers oh yeah or bubblers I don't no those are in the base P those are and they're bottle fillers too so John the owner's project manager is that put out the bit too who who uh that you put out an RFQ on that and we okay yeah he will do that I'm just I want you to see all one question I I C my was a pickle ball cour at almost 100 Grand is is that how they gr piece is it oh yeah you got to dig up 24 in of soil put down compact rable surface and then you've got two coats plus the finished p on coat you got a fence all the way around it um get pickle balls fly a lot especially amongst us are blank it and um so by the by the way you will probably want some kind of shade device around it and S panels Bishop the only neighbor Cemetery you should come if you want come during the day to um longm and see all five courts are full three indoor courts going all the time and Four outo Courts so Seven Courts going all the time can't imagine pickle blow inside that must be so noisy it's not bad first of all it's in a gym with acoustic treatment we have a lot of acoustic treatment it's I I'll send you a video um then we're carrying uh security and it together that could run we had a real problem in wiam and I'll warn you ahead of time um the OPM hired an outside it die um nobody was watching him they didn't give us any of the drawings they put like four 2 by two speakers in even in a room like this they have six speakers in it I don't know why then they hung speakers all over the place the multi-purpose mov they must have spent $80,000 without any overview they just said do us and we don't want to do that we want to we'll have a hearing Loop in a multipose room which is for people with hearing aids and you almost all new hearing AES now have this little device in it that allows you to hear as if somebody's sitting right next to you it's a it's it's it's in the floor and it runs through an amplifier it requires a separate um EA type thing in in the area you know for presenting you know for lectures or what have you and um oh that's an F okay that system is and but the no but the hearing Loop is in your base C okay that has to be done dur construction because it's embedded in CL Flor and it's a whole series and by the way I learned about this maybe four years ago doing a project in Tallahasse Florida I asked these guys what's this because it was added later it was a surface thing turns out the state house churches have it state house has it cour houses have it and all of our centers the last four or five it's a very effective way is the parking lot and the parking lot lighting is that all included in the 11 one yeah BS are two oh but your insurance for ensuring the cars that get hit by other cars that's separate um then we keep going down the line [Music] um right now soft costs around 23% of which some of it you may be doing separately generally our Soft C went around 18% at at the final um then I'm escalating to actually spring is a little aggressive it's probably Midsummer my my cost estimator said you got to carry 5% I think that's and and that day is your anticipated construction start date or the bid go out date bid the bid date and the bid date's probably going to be July we want to we want we normally never been in the summer but we've discovered lately that there's a lot of people build their dance card and they will bid it in summer without any problem so we've got pretty good bids in the summer um when I say someone um I I don't like Bing U Late July or in August everybody's on and is there is there any way to predict the length of time between the bids going out and the start of construction are we talking two weeks two weeks to start after bid no but to start a construction after the bids go out has mobilize within couple of weeks after the contract signed contract is signed in two weeks the one thing we have to be aware of you could get protests um we've been fortunate that we've in all of our we had a threat of a protest once about maybe six years ago but protest can mess things up um in North Andover we had Co it caused a lot travel and the town didn't have control of the complete site and the bids came in and then they didn't they didn't get the contract started for 18 months and they basically had to reprice everything so we don't anticipate that but it was really a bad experience in North so John if we the bids go up two weeks they can start right what about if the got company is low bid and says I can't start for a month a month and a half no he doesn't have that choice it's in the SP okay so he knows he's bidding that job he has he has start he has no choice all right it's in the front end but does he have to continue does can he come in just dig a hole start very the front end is and by the way we'll probably ask your town to comment on the front end we we have a standing front end which is covers most of the I wouldn't say it's 100% but it covers almost every contingency you can imagine that comes up with this public B St like we have file sub bids the contractors is responsible for them but it's an arranged marriage you know they don't know who the file sub bid is until the bid St that means they don't know who their plumber is electrician painter roofer they don't know any of those guys and then the bids come in and they can choose not to use somebody but it'll affect their bid and U and they the contractor has the option of bonding is any of that file sub bids and they often do because file sub bids we had one that's been on three of our jobs and they went under on on on the contractor on our last job um so um they bonded it they already had the bot so they just they completed the word of the bond and it doesn't interfere with us John the owners con you said you're carrying 5% right yeah and but you said you think more be like 1 and a half% hope but you will end up using that you always do I never had a town not use all their contingency but why wouldn't if we're confident enough we can do it at at a lower contingency at five why wouldn't make the number I'm not confident you're not thank you okay you're not no that's why I carry 5% right and if this was renovation I carry 10 which is a big number and by the way I've never had a town not using a contingency you'll have something new car second van we'll talk about that um and I and what I've done here is over the years we've collected the things that we went into and I've listed them here and we I KN wood we've been very very close on our initial draft one and this is adjustable now right away you can say maybe don't want to walk in the RO you know that's all the way around the building we carried 100 bucks a foot for that but we figured we could suspend it building is a steel building we could suspend it using the steel structure rather than building new colums and footings all the way around the building um why do I want to walk on the roof that'll hold you it's slow cing we actually thought about suspending the rods that it looked horrible just yeah and that that unfortunately is not on the agenda because I didn't know it was coming but I did see there were new elevations yeah well some new threedimensional stuff we're gonna your next meeting we're going to do a lot of interior renderings of what it could be looking like um and um you that would be everything from the from multi-purpose room through the library Lounge Fitness classrooms so and the the FF number um where did you get that number from that is a previous building of this size that's how much they spent or you just know how many pieces of furniture and the average Shel of numbers wouldn't that be nice if we're carrying think I and the reason caring $15 per okay so and the reason I ask is that well what I mean it's going to be important to everybody who's using the building what kind of furniture is there the tables how are the chairs and all of that stuff and you would anticipate that we can get that yes at 200 Grand or a little we did love our hand for less but it was two years ago um we because if anybody we don't have the we we we usually would like to be involved in design and selection of that that's an additional fee if we do that for you and the reason why is because Furniture is very specific to our age group all of our dining room chairs you know are as lightweight as possible all have arms because we can't we do this it's extremely difficult difficult our ab muscles are weak as we get older and we need that leverage and even if you're young you need that leverage we do have a bunch of chairs that don't have arms because we use that in in our fitness classes SI be F you know arms around um SI be don't be silly that's really that's very popular when John finishes I'd like to make a few comment so the FF is is very specific to the use of you go ahead and I have a question oh okay so this has to do with your contract we to exract that what you showed us tonight is part of the es that we getting from the contract that is very limited in my estimation is this particular piece of work because I'm looking for a breakdown of the building cost by category of construction and I'm looking for yeah like you just said to Dennis I want to see it on a schedule of values which is what I expected as far as our agreement plus no so you're trying to tell me your estimator this is this is what I do in every single job well yeah you're not in every single job yeah you're right here at the town this is our process that's what we're what's included in your your next one will be a 60 page cost estimate under general con doesn't have to be a 60 this needs to be about three pages with each C Plumbing eating HP electrical sprinkler uh underground electric you know just likee something like that I don't have it design we don't have it design that's just K you just need to but somehow you just how do I know what your plumbing is I know what the J estimated knows yes yes my $100,000 my $90,000 estimate but is it doesn't show us that here you don't this is what I know these buildings cost all right I expected to see that or something like that for a site work breakdown for instance instead of saying it's x amount so that's not included no okay thank you it is included in final design we get our cost estimator will all the drawings that are these drawings do not enough information for our cost estimator to do that of thing you know as well as I do there a scheduled valus it's out there already on this building so you could just give us the AIA document for the schedule Val for the wilham project for instance we can find it we give it to you you know that's at least shows these people every single category understand wilhams was bid two and a half years ago not those numbers are any good anyway doesn't matter if they're good or not we can put the new numbers in but if they I'm trying to get people more familiar with all the different pieces here so they know what to expect you know CL is 175,000 or 250 and the hpes 500,000 and soone can't give it to you this it's in this number okay yeah did this guy just make the number up and put it in the number or no I did not make it up you I'm saying the estimator who said did he did this number for you no estimator did something I do this based on our experience today I talk my talk my customer said where do you think the numbers are today he says $800 $900 a sare foot car all right that's what we do that's the current market and that's what this is based on all right when you get into final design and these drawings go into working drawings we'll know how far the water is running from where where it is we know what kind of you know the amount of Steel we're talking about it starts out very early you get a 20 to 30% cost estimate in the first six eight weeks then you get a 50% cost when we get those cost estimat those are very deta category yes exactly yeah they do two levels they they give you a spread of each each division all right and then every single division is broken down into multi multi multi you know how many feet of copper piping how much electrical what's your service like this has a generator I know the generator 300 to 400,000 why not just give it seist including 300 for the generator so much for this and so much for that because I don't have the specifics for that I don't know what they are I know for the sake of time yeah just for the sake of time um I think we can continue that one is first how to refine what we want to see at each stage as we go um so um do we want to take just two seconds Dan because I'm aware we're um about 10 after 8 now and I want to make sure that we have time for public input and scheduling our next meeting so Dan do you want to you sent out a new version do you want to take just a few minutes to point out what's different for us yeah so I spent a lot more time working on the me and Barbie and our office and uh we got working on 3DS a little bit more nothing has changed floor plan Wise from where we have talked before besides adding the um adding the door into the medical storage through the storage room uh making sure we had enough room for the yoga balls the balls she wanted to make sure she had room for 20 20 of them you should get about 24 in there so thank you I just want to make sure the shape was appropriate that the wall I make sure the biggest balls um second floor um we talked about from the last time dividing up uh that larger activity room so now we have a we have three activity rooms upstairs um both the divided activity room have storage and Cas working water other than that again nothing really has changed floor plan wise that was the biggest change on that um I spent a lot of time changing up the model really yeah he says model talk the division of that activity room into two is that part of this uh PM room petition yes so that's an extra no and the multi-purpose room is that's yeah would be manual upstairs power downstairs okay they slide very usually but M oh yeah no I have worked in a facility that a manual with the high ceilings like in the multipurpose it's a is there a reason why there two closets and that's just not one big large closet okay oh in here so one's janitors and one storage for your boths and what yeah have the actually now you speak of that I I did I think the bathrooms did get moved around a bit I think you already moved last time I wasn't here last Mee that's why we move we move the because it's a small area up there we put them together all three and that works out better too so going to the three dimensions um working on making the building look really nice and U we went ahead and went with uh jingles and Bard and B sexy was the uh what I got told earlier but uh so um again I don't know what much to say but we've oh we have well these are our three dimensions we do have elevations straight up three dimensions get a little I love yeah they're a little squirly but if you look directly so here in the top your North this would be your front entrance coming into the building cover would you nice covered entrance and it comes right up to the drop off so so I'm going to drive up and look somebody off and there will be the passenger will be covered um there's a Pao Pao the Pao Cafe is off over to your left here that little storefront that would be your interest uh Cafe um your Administration is over on your right hand side on the first floor and then you would have your um Wellness above that your bathrooms and then over on your left some the second funky um yeah uh this is your activity room over here and then there's a covered walkway sh on yes with some intermitten columns but until we get in the final design we don't know whether we'll need some columns we're hoping they're only decorative yeah they're kind of there to give it some kind of it wasn't like hang in there I like the I like the look of this covered area better than the last one and it's better with design build yeah and can I just say I really appreciate that middle what do you call that a dmer whatever this part is right here that it's symmetrical I appreciate that that was like making me Twitch a little bit that they were asymetric everybody yeah and um and one thing you should know is that I think you're allowing what's the width for the walking area uh I think it's about five foot if you're five foot walking path and it's like six foot or six overhang yeah and if if it didn't have columns which we could um design yes like yeah 5T past each other yeah well but two people walking a breast and they comfortably walk a breast at 5T this is foot table you're sitting at here with Ellen can you want Ellen okay have only one way [Music] traffic okay it's good a hallway um our interior if we did a hallway inside we would do seven feet um and the reason for that is because you can have people mingling moving around might have a walker or wheelchairs but this is designed for people you're going to set it up so everybody goes in the same direction we're not you know one way only do not enter um so everybody's walking the same way okay and again understand final design is a different animal but we're heading in the right direction I think there would be some adjustments made um maybe the board and batens are 12 in and not 2 feet and um things like that and the color is well the matter doesn't matter we just use blue for now everybody kind of likeed blue so we did it James Hardy it's all either that different um and um the idea is that the exterior of the building just like the whole building is as low maintenance as possible we like the same English um and stand be of and you can see that we carried a number um for the walking move at 100 bucks a foot for the square footage that it covers outside it's it's a lot lower have all the finishes it won't have lighting but there's no hbac or all that stuff that goes and there's concrete sidewalk but we have we generally have a concrete sidewalk building when I was in I noticed on one of the you had a walkway around part of it no only part of it yeah there was a Sprinkle head out so yes so is that a dry system that a component subset will this request no no it's not it's actually a special head design okay that can be the water's interior but if it's triggered it release it has a spring in it no we're not system sprink um it's got to be well now we want to talk to your building inspector if we show them as non-combustible they generally won't ask for it okay um but and it is by the way the ceiling is cement board U steel structure and everything is non-combustible but some inspectors will say I don't care like to give you an idea our benches would be um H coated metal if there would we put benches on than a would there would be concern that they bur so go ahead sorry is there you know what I think it's great thank you um the only question I had on on the roof line all you guys chose to put a pitch roof on one side of the building and oh that's because there's there's an egress stair right there so that that coming up it's on the side nobody really looks at it that's on the service side same thing but that's the E STS and the flat roof up there is yeah yeah the flat roof is up there square up on both sides the whole roof is flat up there I know that yeah why not just have the same G on both we didn't like it we don't like person yeah thank you kind of but yeah and we're out of flat roof because that's our back and the height a low so we you don't really see it from the street you'll never know there's a flat roof up there unless you walk around to this side and there's no paret or anything around the roof it just up and returns right over yeah there's vent system there have there's a ridge vent along the flat yeah we we breathe we breathe that we use something called a hunter system which allows the roof to breathe so it's a cold roof with insulation below it that's all you have the whole thing thank you any other before we go to public um just the walking room you said it's not as you used a figure which was like square footage interior but this wasn't yeah does that mean that it will cost less than 312 no that's how much it costs it's like five I can remember it's $100 per times square foot of that walking so does this picture show it with the roof yes yes the only other thing I think we need to follow up on particularly if we're considering trying to go to town meeting in the fall is to I know that Allan has left but if somebody could talk to the person in his office to follow up with the state because they gave us that Grant on the preparation Grant yes but said that we would be eligible for an additional um once we went building that we could get a construction ground that's okay I will um I will follow up with her so I Alicia is taking over Alicia is taking over um you know the tasks that were in process um when when Allan left and I did meet with her a couple of weeks ago just to give her the information she needed on our progress to file the interim report for the brand um and we haven't spent I don't think any of those funds yet so um depending on how quickly we move we might have to ask for an extension so I will check in with her she was going to inquire with the granter the granting agency um to see about that um and so I'll ask her at the same time when I follow up on that about an extension because once we get into the utilities um and then we start working on it then we'll be and it would be really nice to be able to go to town meeting and say that we want to be able to get up to a $3 million Grant sure you know with some certainty definitely I agree yeah and I I think the timing of this is something you know as we're progressing along we're talking with Town Council and the town manager's office getting a sense I I kind of feel like fall town meeting is probably too tight at this point um but I want to on that it comes back from vacation the where the time table to spend that Grant at this point it's June of next year June of next year I just want does everyone know that have till June of next year to spend it I'll get EX yes but I'm more concerned with the followup perhaps next mon for construction and how soon could be approved for that even if we don't get the money you know I can clarify but I think the appliation period for that is the that was okay but I'll follow up with the a project how long is a project like this take from start to finish 14 and 16 months so we're talking late 2026 yeah in fact one of the things that once we get deeper into this one of the things I want to out of the our cost estimator does probably 60 70% of all the prop bid stuff in Massachusetts so he has a very close pulse on it he will tell us what it's like years out he's giving me an idea and that's why our numbers are where they are right now between $800 $900 a square foot we're at like 854 with seip um right now it's really hard to predict where this junk is going the construction business it's breath we're working on a project in that tuck that two years ago was $1,000 fo today it's $2,500 just because it's but $1,500 put everything on you got to put everything on a boat to get it yeah well two years later it's it's more than so are we ready for public input now all right uh Paul I see you have your hand up yes I've been waiting very patiently and I'm so sorry it's 8:30 you've been at this for two and a half hours I have a few comments no questions and I don't want to start a discussion or debate but I just want to share my thoughts as you all know I have followed your committee since it's Inception I missed one meeting I forget why now Katie but you were surprised I wasn't there and I couldn't hear anything at the one of the other ones I will say this I'm disappointed in your selection so quickly I'll just leave that there you not you the school committee was not invited to participate in hindsight I think that's a mistake I know that Robert had uh a review of the lease with the school um department when the save Peroni Park issue was going on because everybody thought that could be nothing done with the lease that is not the fact and I don't remember any discussion at this committee about that lease so that's a second thing I'm disappointed in I do not like the selection of Bishop Road it's not Central to the town um the Council on Aging meetings are going to move there presumably but they've always had to be at 18 pond because that's where the majority of residents live according to a discussion you and I Katie had in an email so how are they going to get there just rhetorical not asking for an answer the other thing that really bothers me and it wasn't my place to bring this up but I'm going to bring it up tonight when I was a selectman in 2005 shortly after the community preservation Act was adopted in 2001 the Housing Authority came to the town and requested a review of a potential expansion of 18 Pawn Street as I look at who's in this room I think there are only three maybe four people who lived here at the time including myself so that would be five I won't mention names but I can't see the third lady in the audience but I believe she lived here then it wasn't approved then in 2005 but this committee has not even discussed it yet I no from the housing report it was provided to the council and AG so Paul just a point of clarification on that one um I have a copy of that um yes um and so there there was discussion I'm trying to remember if it was in this meeting or if it was in the previous meeting it was in the previous meeting Katie I'm sorry to interrupt because I want to be very brief it was in the previous meeting it has never been brought forward to this meeting and it would not involve a lot of the costs that you all have discussed tonight but as I said it wasn't my place to bring It Forward I just want everyone to know there is another possibility that hasn't even been explored well so it's it's Paul it's not a possibility it wasn't brought up because the expansion went from 1,700 Square F feet here to about 20 800 square ft with no parking so we would have added on to this building but with no additional parking and so it just wasn't a viable um viable proposal and we limited here by the grade and all those things so it was discussed by the last working group but was never brought in because it was so far away from the scope of what we were talking about here so I just wanted to we'll have we'll have a discussion about this that that proposal could easily been brought forward to this new committee which was reformed because of problems with the last committee and it was not and I'll leave it at that and we'll see where this all goes so the other things I want to say are the 21e um investigation is strictly important Jim you'll remember when the fire station was being built it added about $3 million do to the cost to that construction I think it was 1993 so we need to do an exploration of the bishop roadside to be sure there's no contamination because as the architect pointed out devans may impact it same with turtles and Blu spotted salamanders if Jim you remember Lon Hill I don't know if Dave seore if you were still if you lived here back then um and as far as Clerk of the wordss and Building Commissioner we have a Building Commissioner on St why would we pay another Building Commissioner an independent consultant we Clerk of the works I understand there should be a town person and I would immediately recommend Ken Dixon but I'm sure he might have other conflicts but we need why why would we need to hire and these not questions I'm asking answers why would we need to hire a Building Commissioner at the T several hundred, when we have one on the payroll and last comment I'll say right now Ken do not give up on your argument about those cost estimates you are absolutely correct if the architect can't provide you the information you want we want you know the result you know what should be done thank you very much thank you col um any comment public comment for those in person I have a comment but I don't think right now the time to do it I I think this is a great time well if you want to get it on the record Now's the Time to do it because I know what you're gonna say say I do not care for the roof the building the outside I think it's a little extravagant we don't need the town mahaj in the town of air and I think all the roof and all the exits and the roofs that are on angled that too many angles for the roof we don't need all of that and then things in the front of it we can still have a nice looking roof and go down on the cost we don't need the diagram the three things that are on the front to save money on the building I can comment on that if you want so um I'm not saying anything having taken a tour of the wilam building the one part of the building that surprised me the most and would surprise anyone who saw it because I was seen a lot of mechanical rooms rooftop mechanical rooms and a rooftop equipment was walking up to the third floor and seeing the entire mechanical electrical fiber arm sprinkler the whole works built on the third floor concealing it completely from being rooftop equipment outside the building all over the place uh and really a fantastic nice installation and that helped me believe that this architect had the right idea so even you see those roof lines they're actually accommodating the equipment area in the building which serves to carry equipment that's as big as this room up on the third floor and that serves the air conditioning systems the heating systems all kinds of Water Systems purification you name it and that is why I contend that that building looks okay because we actually are getting something underneath rather than just a line to me it's more than a roof line it's an equipment floor that's being used very efficiently um so you don't see anything outside building on the ground which you have the roof or on the roof it's all hidden so there's more to it than just look at the of the building in my estimation it's probably worth I know it's difficult for people to go see different centers I always recommend that when you're when you're concerned about something go see and see what you think and then come back and say you know I like it or I still have I went Toth and I saw and I like inside the outside the architect of the outside of the building is Extreme to me okay yeah in what my personal opinion in what way the design with the Angles and the Dormers and everything that's there I mean you got all that angles of the roof the water Leaf you know I mean do like Walmart did you get the devil the devil where it's in and out I'm just talking about things on the front that cost a lot of money in the gr it does the other thing is to I was on the pleas Street committee for a long time and one thing that we have had a problem with was leeks right from the very beginning and now there's a lot of breaking up with do and so for here I think okay okay thank you you two so so I mean I think the paing point com into Barber's point and and Ken's Point regarding the the cost estimate and I'm sure you know this when we go before the town and we're talking to our neighbors on the streets and we're on the floor of town meeting we are going to have to explain to them why this number is as it is and in order to do that in good faith and have a fuller understanding of why these costs are as they are then level of detail that that Ken was talking about is something that we're going to need so that we can kind of explain these are the causes and this is why um yeah you know that's a good point and I I don't dispute it at all um and I can be happy to show you how it breaks down but I can tell you right now the last 15 to 20 projects they all work through on this I'm sorry 20 project they [Music] all're all done it doesn't mean you should not have it let me see what I have in my system I will give you first of all the wilham breakdown so you know why what what we're talking about between this and what we really do in the final disarm well thing just if you this not a private development this public why make it harder there's a look at the very first line just just site work building together I have it in front of me right now yeah at least break the building in the site work the car if you don't do anything else be back I'll tell you what I'll tell you exactly how broke out I'll tell you exactly how it broke out by Wilderness and I'll take the percentage and I'll adjust it to this that's all it does it it doesn't doesn't change the number numbers aren the same no no it doesn't change it doesn't change terms of our in terms of our next meeting um when do we want to meet again um there's obviously some questions for um the various the town manager's office Town Council um you know the Community Development there's Jim's going to reach out Dan's got a couple of of Dan has got a couple of um you know as follow-ups as well so um are we thinking we might need a little bit more time than the two weeks meing to accomplish that or no and says no I I would say no I'm thinking I would you need to keep going as fast as possible we're running out who we run yeah so two weeks from today would be September 11th that work when's Tom um town meeting is October 24th but umum warrant's going to open soon's already open I'm trying to remember the I'm not sure I'm not sure we're gonna make it they would they said they would do a yeah we didn't make and I'll I'll put that on my list of things to talk the town manager about be better off meeting by the way you'll get a stronger and it also to that point want to have time sorry yeah it also affords us more opportunity to properly inform that is I think we are better off properly informing the public prior to the town meeting so that on the floor at town meeting yes people don't feel like they've been rushed into such a ific or not even knowing what it was coming in front of and I and I mentioned that very early on that the most important thing to communicate with the stakeholders which is Town citizens as well as but when you answer your question Dennis I think the bottom line peopleon want to know what's going to cost them you're gonna get that percentage say What's it gonna cost me what's my additional cost every year or whatever they're G ask that who was going to be meeting with the treasurer or whoever who was going to take yes so I gave her the first one not today's revision I gave her the first one she had a whole set of questions back for me about you know when the project will start six months a year two years um that affects her estimate as far as how much it will cost the average taxpayer um she had questions about the estimate cash flow for the project when when the funds will be needed and how much at each stage um and then long my I'm not shaking your hand my I need to further talk to the town manager's office to get a sense of those um so um yeah because we're going to need because I said to somebody how much do you think the town will support she goes well how much is it on the taxes and know they don't they don't want to hear it's 10 million or it's 15 million they want to know how much is it going to raise I think that makes it personal and so I think we need a couple a little bit more information um and that was information that I couldn't answer for her email so um I think we need to have another I need to have a sit down and have a discussion with her about how to exactly what their questions are and how to get to those answers so yeah so yeah because I do think that that's the thing that will help people decide personally how much will it cost me right right agreed so all right so next meeting September 11th um at 6: pm and here sounds good so far all right wonderful umen to the Jour decide who's going to do the minutes for next time oh so Dennis has already done them I've already done them Carolyn's already done them anybody else want to volunteer to do the minutes from tonight's meeting because we can do it off the recording all right I'll do it thank you thank you if you want them done in about a year I can do one um okay so September 11th that would be okay with me but the rest of the time there was a motion toj was it second favor