e calling to order the February 15th special meeting of the Bernards Township Board of adjustment please rise for the flag salute I pledge allegiance to un States andice for all in accordance with the requirement of the open public meeting law notice of this meeting of the board of adjustment of the township of Bernards was posted on the bulletin board in the reception hall of the municipal building cier Lane Basking Ridge New Jersey was mailed to the Burnsville News whiy New Jersey The Courier News Bridgewater New Jersey and was filed with the Township Clerk all on January 8th 2024 and was mailed electronically to all those people who have requested individual notice the following procedure has been adopted by the Bernard's Township Zoning Board of adjustment there will be no new cases heard after 10 p.m. and no new testimony heard after 10:30 p.m. Miss keer please call the roll I uh thank you Miss janers Miss Balman Mr Krauss and Miss poar are unavailable this evening U miss poar and miss Balman are recused um Mr Cambria here Mr pavi here um Mr T here Mr hon here M Herrera here uh Mr Warner here Mr Quinn here Mr finger here Mr schide here for the record M keeper is present uh chairman tank you have a forum you may proceed thank you Miss kefir could I have a motion to excuse the absences of those mentioned I make a motion to excuse him thank you Mr P second thank you Mr Cambry all in favor I opposed abstain thank you next item on the agenda is the continued public hearing signature Acquisitions ZB 22- 028 and Mr chairman if I may while council's getting ready I think this may be our eth hearing uh we continue to have the matter carried without further notice to this evening the board continues to have jurisdiction to hear and decide the case thank you excuse me thank you thank you Mr chairman uh members of the board members of the public uh Jeff ler from the law firm of Def Francesco baitman and I'm here for Signature Acquisitions LLC I'm not going to go through you already at this point know what this application is about um last hearing on January 3D uh I presented Mr seckler uh Matt seckler our traffic expert to testify uh the board asked number of questions and then the board opened it up to the public one of the questions asked by the public was whether Mr seckler was aware that the Somerville Road Bridge overpass was closed for construction uh Mr seckler said he would look again at the Somerville Road and Allen Road intersection and did so on January uh 23 20124 which was uh after the overpass operations resumed uh Mr seckler also analyzed um the fellowship drive and Allen Road driveway on January 31 2024 those supplemental materials were submitted more than 10 days before this hearing to the board and uh Additionally the board's traffic expert Mr Fishinger uh reviewed those supplemental materials and was uh uh my understanding was in agreement with the conclusions reached by Mr um by Mr seckler in his letter dated February 7 2024 all of that is part of the record uh in this hearing and so I now turn it back to the board as to uh your your where what your preference is and Mr chairman with your permission before we do just to make clear uh certainly it's your in my opinion prerogative as to how to proceed and and certainly not a requirement that you proceed with Mr SE with respect to the additional material that came uh after the last hearing uh I do want to make clear though uh and I suspect you concur but let me ask you on the record uh certainly that material as part of the record as you said both the February 5th 2024 memo memorandum from Mr uh seckler traffic capacity or Capacity Analysis memorandum as well as a February 7 memo uh uh responding to same by the board's traffic Engineer Expert Mr Fishinger of Bright View uh that is all of record and certainly uh fertile for the board uh uh board professionals members of the public uh uh uh attorneys for objectors to utilize and continue cross-examination of Mr seckler correct that's correct okay thank you for confirming your understanding is the same of mine in that respect um and then uh Mr chairman it's back to you as far as how we uh proceed with the order of continued cross-examination uh uh by objectors councel uh and members of the public uh and by the way board members and board professionals as well particularly given the additional information sure my first question is to the board does anyone have any questions of the the latest Capacity Analysis that we just referenced any of our experts have any comment on no um I'm sorry Mr Fishinger you did do a report February 7 with respect to the February 5th capacity uh analysis memorandum that was uh submitted uh on behalf of the applicant yes and my review memo speaks for itself generally speaking I I concur with Mr seer's analysis I don't have any questions not withstanding same with the chair's permission could you uh elaborate for the benefit of the members of the public uh as well as what your opinions were Visa that Capacity Analysis memorandum of February 5th your your report February 7 so um there were three comments in the February 7th memo the first two were essentially concurring with Mr seer's analysis that he updated the analysis of both intersections the third comment was I noted a minor uh technical error in the analysis I don't believe it changes the conclusions I'm sure Mr seckler can speak for himself and confirm on the record if he agrees that that doesn't change the answers can you just explain for the benefit of the public that error hypog graphical errors you referred to it in three of February 7 2024 sure at the analysis that he looked at at Allen Road and the Fellowship Road intersection the eastbound left turn lane was left out of the analysis so those the model assumed all the vehicles turn from one lane instead of having that second left turn lane adding the lane is not going to make the level of service worse if anything it might make it slightly better so I don't anticipate the conclusions changing right but nevertheless I take you're asking Mr SE that question for the record I am still under oath absolutely thanks the licenses remain a good standing yes they are so then I assume the board will continue to AC as an expert in the field of traffic engineering thank you and yes my uh what Mr Fishinger uh uh assumed uh in terms of the change of conclusion there being no change of conclusion is accurate um there would be no diff or I'd say no negative change in coding in that left turn lane correctly and as M Mr Fishinger mentioned actually would improve the level of service because now the model would include the ability for left turn cars to have their own lane instead of stopping in the through Lane to make a left turn into Fellowship Road Mr chairman may I ask a followup question uh would you be kind enough with members benefit of the members of the public uh uh to just give a very quick summary of what your conclusions were with respect to your February 5 Capacity Analysis memorandum yes um the brief conclusion is that we reran the analysis of those two intersections the Allen Road Somerville Road intersection uh which was a reanalysis with the traffic back patterns back to normal post construction and the new analysis at Allen Road and the driveway uh of Fellowship Village uh we found um when comparing the traffic of you know uh today's traffic uh grown out to 2026 and then added on the traffic of the proposed light manufacturing building there was not a significant negative uh change in delay this analysis also does not include uh the any traff traffic coming from the 150 Allen Road site today meaning that it does not include any traffic that may have been generated when this was an operating office building where obviously that would also uh have similar even potentially worse results than what we've shown here in our build condition and am I correct from Reading from your report in point one the analysis indicates that both intersections will generally operate at level of service C during both morning and evening peak hours with select movements operating at a level of service D correct yes uh and uh nothing further for me Mr chairman I just want everyone to have the benefit of that not withstanding that it was submitted in advance thank you Mr V okay um thank you everyone for coming out this evening um we are going to have cross-examination of Mr seckler the traffic expert um by the objector attorneys M Smith will go first Mr Berlin will have an opportunity afterwards and after Mr Berlin finishes the public will have an opportunity to come up and ask questions of our of the traffic expert so M Smith good evening everyone for the record my name is Jennifer Philip Smith and I'm an attorney with given PC and I do represent Fellowship Village in this matter Mr seckler before I get too far into the questioning I want to make sure I have the the universe of documents that you've submitted and prepared in connection with this application so first I have a traffic assessment report that was dated September 16th and revised to April 19th is that correct uh April 19th 2023 20123 yes yes and the title of that was traffic impact study and there's been no further revisions to the traffic impact study that have been submitted to this board is that correct not subsequent April 19th 2023 have you submitted any revisions to the County planning board you referring to reports this particular report has no okay then I have a letter that was submitted on December 20th of 2023 which appears to be a response to um I guess questions or concerns that were raised either by this board's traffic uh engineer or the County planning board is that correct that is correct all right and then I have the recently submitted Capacity Analysis memo dated February 5th of 2024 is that correct that is correct right have you submitted any other reports or letters that your office prepared to this board not subsequent to those dates no thank you so as a traffic engineer here in the traffic impact analysis the first one that I talked about that was revised through April of 2023 when you went out and counted Vehicles did you expect or generally do you expect to get the same number of vehicles each and every day no there's some daily fluctuation in traffic and do those fluctuations change on a monthly basis uh they can yes what are some of the criteria that might account for different traffic counts on different days uh could be weather could be school could be um you know obviously as we learned through covid there was high fluctuation in you know people's travel patterns in terms of commuting characteristics in general not necessarily particular the site but in general are there certain months where traffic counts tend to be higher than other months uh typically counts are higher in the fall and spring um than other months I guess in this area of the state so in your initial traffic report and I'll just keep calling it the traffic report and I'm referring to the one last revised in April 2023 in that traffic report what was the first date that you conducted the counts the first date we conducted the counts were in August of 2020 let me get the date August 2nd 2022 and which intersections did you analyze on that occasion on that occasion the intersections that were counted were Liberty Corner Road at the two Route 78 ramps so that's the eastbound ramps and the westbound ramps Liberty Corner Road and Allen Road and then Allen Road and the site driveway now you went back and did a second day of counting is that correct that is correct and what day was that that was Tuesday January 10th 2023 do you know anything about the weather that day sorry what was that date again my apology Tuesday January 10th 2023 thank you do you know anything about the weather that day um I don't believe that the weather was uh impacted the travel patterns on that day but do not know the specific uh degrees that was that day is there anything in the report that discusses what the weather was like that day in January no it no it does not now you mentioned that traffic tends to be higher in fall and spring but you counted on January 10th 2023 is that in the fall or the spring no the typical I'd say winter time periods in which travel is not typical would be December around the holidays uh when school gets back in session January February counts are pretty typical but again December as a winter month uh would be a month that I would normally uh try to stay away from if possible but typically you said spring or fall is January in the spring or fall no it is not would you expect that you might have higher counts if you were counting in April or May as opposed to January um in this area I'm I'm not positive there will be a significant difference uh as long as school was in session but but do you know for sure what the counts would be I don't know for sure what the counts would be and is there anything particular about this area that would differ from when you said counts are typically higher in spring or fall I don't goad no you you asked your question no go ahead no I don't think there's anything specific here again outside of the I would say Christmas holiday that would uh signify that January would not be a typical day again uh as Traffic Engineers were're trying to find the typical day not necessarily the worst day that that exists uh in the region but a typical day when you counted between August 2nd of 2022 and then back on January 10th of 2023 what was the difference between those two dates uh the you mean the difference meaning the traffic volumes correct uh the traffic volumes in January were 11.7% higher in August and 25.9% higher uh in in the morning and 25.9% higher in the evening than the August counts and you don't have any counts that would distinguish the difference between a January month and any other month besides August is that correct correct now turning to the Capacity Analysis that you submitted on February 5th of 2024 I'm going to talk specifically about the counts that you perform formed at the driveway of Fellowship Road and Allen Road first uh what's the distance between the site driveway and the driveway at Fellowship Road in Allen Road about a half mile on what day did you conduct those counts uh Thursday January 20 uh 31st 2024 and that's in the winter is that correct that is correct and what were the hours that you sampled 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. in the morning and 400 p.m. to 6: p.m. in the evening why did you choose those particular hours those are the hours in which the roadways would be expected to have their Peak those are the typical Peak Travel hours uh and we confirmed that when we did the counts at the other intersections in the area now when you say the roadways would be at their Peak are you talking about Allen Road or Fellowship Road um what we typically look at would be the overall volume going through that intersection as Allen Road is the higher volume Road it likely would be when Allen Road is at their highest um versus is uh Fellowship Road which would be a less volume Road do you know when Fellowship Road would be at its highest um I don't specifically know um obviously knowing the fact that it is um you know an I believe an age restricted community I imagine it may not have the same commuting patterns as other roadways uh but again the traffic volumes on Allen Road are significantly higher than Fellowship Village uh the driveway so again I would imagine the overall traffic volume would still be higher uh somewhere between 700 and9 in the morning and 400 p.m. and 600 p.m. in the evening you indicate you would imagine but do you know I don't know for certain but I I with a within a reasonable uh professional assumption that it is do you know what the shift changes are at Fellowship Village I do not know do you know how many employees there are at Fellowship Village I do not know and how many employees are on each particular shift I don't know are you aware of other Healthcare uses and how they may not have shifts that that are 9 to5 uh yes I aware that may be possible are you aware that Fellowship Village has a theater uh yes I do and are you aware that they are not permitted to have shows between 4: and 700 p.m. in the evenings that I don't know so I'd like to walk through some of the Turning movements in your report from February 5th so I'm looking specifically at let's see I guess this is page three of four and there's there are two tables here there's Allen Road and Somerville Road and then Allen Road and the existing driveway Fellowship Road that bottom table is the table that pertains to the driveway at Fellowship Road that serves Fellowship Village is that correct that's correct and there's different turning movements here we'll start with the weekday morning peak hour when you say eastbound I guess EB left what does that mean that is the delay a vehicle would experience if they were traveling eastbound on Allen Road and looking to make a left turn into Fellowship Road uh it's a measurement of the delay that those Vehicles would experience on average So when you say eastbound is that coming from the site of the applicant towards Fellowship Road is that correct in that direction yes uh that direction on Allen Road to make a left turn right and when you say WB left what does that mean that would be the westbound left that would be going turning into the driveway across from from uh Fellowship Road so coming from where uh Martinsville road if you're heading on Allen Road and then making a left again into the driveway across the street not into Fellowship Road but into a driveway that Services a different use correct all right now we have NB left through right what does that mean that would be the delay that someone would the average vehicle would experience coming from the driveway across from um Fellowship Road and those Vehicles making a left through a right term and how about SB left through right that would be the delay experiened from a vehicle leaving uh Fellowship Road making a left through a right and this is the average DeLay So in this chart SB left through that is any car that's at Fellowship Village comes up Fellowship Road and is going to make a left a through or a right onto Allen Road that's correct and what are you project well what do you project as the existing level of service at for those residents or individuals who are leaving fellowship and looking to make a left through or right hand turn onto Allen Road you specific time of day you're asking I'm looking at the weekday morning Peak to start okay so the level of service would be C with a delay value of 19.3 seconds what does the 19.3 seconds mean that's the average delay that a vehicle waiting uh to make that turn would experience now then you have two other columns here you have a 2026 no build and a 2026 build so what does it mean for 2026 no build that's looking two years into the future with this with the proposed development not constructed with General background growth on the nearby roadways um again it's assumed per the department of transportation that traffic volumes on roads will increase in in volume and that's what it's accounting for and what level of service are you estimating for the 2026 no build time period C with a 20.1 seconds what is the rough difference in the number of seconds that a car on average would wait between existing and what you're projecting for 2026 in a no build condition less than a sec one second difference now let's look at the 2026 builds column can you explain what that column represents that is adding the development that we are the applicant uh the application before the board right now the traffic associated with that development on top of the no build traffic volumes on the roadway and what level of service do you predict will be at the driveway for anyone that's coming from fellowship Village and making a left through or rightand turn onto Allen Road D with 25.8 seconds so what is the difference in the amount of weit time between someone who you're you projected is there today in 2024 and who may be trying to make a left through or right out of Fellowship Road if this development is built in 2026 a little more than 5 Seconds and again I just want to reiterate because it is in this report that this report does not account for any of the traffic that was generated by 150 Allen Road in its previous use as an office building that obviously when the office building was constructed it would have you know had its own let's say build condition with its own uh additional traffic volume on the roadway are there any tenants of the office building today no now just looking at the weekday evening peak hour so what hour is that again uh for that intersection it is get you the 445 to 545 445 to 545 now I'm going to assume that everything in the lane group column all those abbreviations I read out that mean the same thing in the top table as I do in the bottom table correct that's correct all right we'll save ourselves some time there so in the 2024 existing column when we look at SB left through or right which you indicated is people leaving Fellowship f what is the 2024 existing level of service in your opinion C9 and it's not my opinion it's the calculation uh it's C 19.5 seconds and if we skip to the 2026 build which assumes this project is approved and built what is the anticipated level of service D 28.1 seconds and so what is the difference in time between the 2026 builds and the 2024 existing uh approximately 8 Seconds and again I same caveat that this analysis uh does not account for any of the existing when the building at 150 Allen Road was in operation that it also had volume on Allen Road that would have created delays coming out of that driveway similar to this so This analysis does not take into account any office use correct but currently the building building's vacant correct right and this analysis is only looking at two particular hours in the day one in the morning and one in the evening is that correct yes the the hours of the day in which that intersection has its highest volumes overall intersection but you don't know if it's the hours of the day when Fellowship Road has its highest volumes is that correct that is correct now I'd like to look at your turning diagrams uh it's ex page A1 within your figures in the report now I'm looking at Fellowship Road and I see there are some arrows here and there's an arrow that I believe indicates those who are coming out of Fellowship Road and making a right-and turn how many in the morning am peak hour how many people are making a right-hand turn two and this was just in the time that you counted right in that one hour in the one hour that we studied which was oh we counted from s to 9 but we studied the analysis from 8 to 9 that was the highest volume and how many during that time in the AM were making a leftand turn 13 and you went back and you looked at it in the the PM peak hour correct correct and how many were making a right out of Fellowship Road onto Allen Road six and how many were making a left 58 it's it fair to say that the vast majority of cars that were coming out of Fellowship Road were making a leftand turn onto Allen Road that's a a fair assumption yes and both of those regardless both the left or the right you anticipate that in 2026 under a build condition would would go from a level of C today to a level of service D in the future correct do you think that's going to be because more people are coming out of Fellowship Road no it's the volume on Allen Road it will be higher because right now 150 Allen Road has no traffic coming from it and in the future there will be traffic being generated from that site should the board find that this application favorable so let's turn to the intersection of Allen Road and the existing driveway this is A8 in your technical appendix now in this chart did you break out the number of uh what's listed here is HV does that mean heavy Vehicles yes and I think we established or you established in your prior testimony that HV heavy Vehicles means anything with a longer axle or distance between the axles that would be classified as not a car correct yes okay and that that could include things like school buses or potentially limousines or other things that are not tractor trailers correct can I just ask what page you're on A8 so I'm looking at the Allen Road eastbound Lane eastbound part of the table for the morning and it has HV and it lists three in the through column what does that mean that means there were three vehicles that are classified as heavy vehicles uh over the hour that we're going through on Allen Road in the eastbound Direction so again that would be generally coming past our site towards Martinville Road and there were three HP do you know what kind of heavy vehicle that was I I don't I don't know specifically which type of heavy Vehicles those were so it could have been a school bus uh there is a the second well two columns below that is a column labeled BSB that would be bus or school bus so it would be be likely in that column if it was a bus so those together so those is there five total vehicles or three five five total so two buses three something that is not a car and not a bus correct now if we look at the Allen Road westbound how many heavy vehicles that are not cars or buses were traveling during this one studied hour two um two going through and one making a right so three total yes all right how many the existing driveway Northbound that's the driveway that's across from Fellowship Road right were there any heavy vehicles coming in or out no all right how about the Fellowship Road were there any heavy vehicles coming in or out no so there were a total of six heavy Vehicles during this peak hour all of which were already on Allen Road correct correct now let's look at the evening analysis how many heavy Vehicles were in the evening uh on Allen Road going eastbound one and how about Allen Road westbound zero and how about the existing driveway Northbound uh looks like uh zero for North B and how about Fellowship Road there was one one now I believe you indicated in your testimony last time that there would be approximately 89 trucks generated by the site sorry 89 trips for trucks generated by the site on a daily basis that's correct yes we correct the record it's 89 trips that's total trips I believe I just I think you started with 89 trucks right but I think I corrected that so 89 trips for trucks coming to or from the site on a daily basis correct yes 89 trips and in the peak hour how many truck trips did you believe would be generated by this site there would be six in the morning six truck trips in the morning and there will be six truck trips in the evening peak hour and all of the trucks that are leaving the site are they permitted to go left if like an leaving leaving by by trucks I think there needs to be like there may be something that be classified a heavy vehicle let say like a large workb that would be able to make a left out of the site but any tractor trailer they would have to make a turn out of the site and when you when you came up with the number 89 how many of those do you think are trucks that could actually make a left again that really depends on what the type of use is there are light manufacturing buildings that may have very little tractor trailers just because of whatever their manufacturing may be small and easy to move in smaller Vehicles there may be you know other uses that may um lean on you know larger wheelbase uh vehicles and require um more track tractor trailers of that percentage I I can't opine based on the data I have what percentage would be tractor trailer versus non-t trctor trailer what information would you need in order to Aline on that I would need to know the end user and operations of that end user and has that information been presented to the board I don't believe there is an end user so no so it's possible all 89 of those trucks are box trucks that could make a left into the Hills uh possibly yes if that's also the direction again in my testimony I think I gave some extensive testimony that deliveries were utilizing the interstate root system that the left turn wouldn't get them actually be a slower maneuver than making a right turn out of the site so is it your testimony then that you believe the vast majority of the 89 trucks would still be making a right out of the driveway onto Allen Road yes I would imagine that yes and any tractor trailers would be making a right out of the driveway onto Allen Road correct that is correct does that mean that all of the tractor trailers exiting the site are all going to go past Fellowship Village yes currently how many heavy Vehicles did in the PM peak hour did you have going did you count going past the fellowship site uh one going past the fellowship site and so how many vehicles in the PM peak hour would you anticipate would be added based on this use being approved and built vehicles or Vehicles heavy Vehicles then there would be six more so there would be a total of seven so we'd go from one to seven correct now is there anywhere in this chart that shows the number of heavy Vehicles including tractor trailers that will be passing by the site in the hours between the morning hour and the PM peak hour nothing in this report now have you studied that no um can you repeat that question have have you studied no before before the question before that gosh I think it was have you studied how many uh heavy vehicles or trucks would be going uh between signature site and fellowships site between the morning peak hour and the PMP hour so again what we did testify to was the amount of heavy Vehicles based on the it was that 89 trips so again most likely a majority of that 89 trips would be going past the Fellowship Road driveway during the remainder part of the day so between roughly 9:00 am and I forget when your peak hour is 5:00 pm um probably not all 89 will fit within that time period but a large a portion of them would be during that time period based on the data you've collected here do you have any indication of how many heavy vehicles are currently traversing Allen Road between 10: am and 3 pm no you only know how many are in the peak hours correct correct and you said the peak hours are when you would expect Allen Road to have the heaviest amount of traffic correct heaviest amount of volume of traffic right all right was talking a little bit about truck traffic do collisions with heavy duty trucks are they more dangerous than collisions with other types of smaller Vehicles traditional cars I don't know if I have any specific studies that I could scientifically say one way or the other uh have you looked at the New Jersey state Planning Commission uh office of planning advocacy distribution warehouse and goods movement guidelines that was adopted on September 7th of 2022 uh I have looked at that previously but this being not a warehouse I didn't consult it for this application I understand it's not a warehouse but both light industrial uses and Warehouse uses both involve trucks is that correct different to the question this is a permitted use in and she's referring to a warehouse analysis I I don't understand the correlation my VI board is is to overrule the objection of the not withstanding the comparison to the warehouse guidelines the question had to do with whether or not this involves trucks I think that's a fair question it's relevant question in my opinion what if yes or no she's she's using a a planning document based upon Warehouse use and then drives to make it sound like how many trucks will this this site generate because there's a planning document that talks about it it's actually not Warehouse document respectfully that's not the question I asked I asked just do heavy duty trucks sorry are heavy duty trucks dangerous for passenger cars when it comes to collisions actually I thought the question he asked was was does it involve trucks well yes that also too first question was do do both uses involve trucks irrespective of of what appears in the warehouse guidelines okay these are again are fair questions and by the way I think the witness already addressed his opinion as to whether or not or the applicability of Warehouse guidelines so and he's free to continue to do so um so again I I I advise that the uh questions are permissible in my opinion and I I do have copies I am not going to be asking whether this is a warehouse I am not going to be asking about comparisons to warehouses but there are there is guidance in here specifically about uses that involve trucks and so I will be I to object to that because this is a document that that most land use attorneys are aware of that was created about warehouses and I think it would be inappropriate and also misleading to to use a planning document focused on warehousing to suggest that this is what's going to happen in a light manufacturing facility I am not using it to suggest what may happen in a light manufacturing facility I'm using it to ask questions specific to trucks and I think we've established both uses involved trucks and I think the board is capable of making the distinctions your witness Mr Lair is capable of addressing it in the context of the questions are being asked of him uh and certainly I think both parties are excuse me you're going to have a planner I as I understand to come next who can also address the relevance applicability Etc so again I don't think it's unfair or misleading I trust the board's judgment uh and so again I think it's appropriate at least for the time being if when a question is asked that you object to that I think is inappropriate we could address those questions but so far so good is my advice to the board I do have copies that I can give to the board secretary if you'd like them passed out my questions are going to be fairly limited though so happy to pass them out but also happy to just leave them here to be passed out in the future if you're not insisting on passing them out I mean it's up to you but I understand that it' be a concern if not an objection with respect to those if you're not particularly focusing on the warehouse guidelines perhaps it's best to just ask the questions that's what I'm going to do I aming my objection on the record if she circulates that to the members of the board I place my objection on the record no understood thus far it hasn't been passed to the members of the board but I would like to hand a copy to Mr sear so that he can be reading along as I ask a question if that's permitted do do you have an objection to that Mr I do okay I think it's inappropriate to to to use that document in any fion I think we've established that the board has not overruled my use of it to ask limited questions and frankly the questions are fairly short it's probably taken longer to argue it than to ask the one question there was a time in2 20 22 Mr chairman when warehousing was a very very um Mr difficult and troubling issue Mr Mr Lair respectfully I I don't I think the objections been made I I and and uh I don't I imagine you might be going beyond the objection shortly if you haven't already so that's why I'm I'm suggesting his stuff um the uh it's my suggestion to the the the um it's it's up to uh it's up to Mr seckler if he wants the in front of him or not and he could take guidance from his councel what have or or the council for the applicant it's fine that you're not handing them out can you just repeat the source real quick sure absolutely so this is the New Jersey state Planning Commission Office of planning advocacy distribution whereare housing and goods movement guidelines policy adopted September 7th 2022 my questions are fairly limited on this document again I'm not going into the comparisons to warehouse but the document does say that truck traffic can present substantial safety issues and then it goes on to say collisions with heavy duty trucks are especially dangerous for passenger cars motorcycles bicycles and pedestrians do you disagree with those statements I think on the surface those statements again appear accurate again I haven't done my own research on the level of accidents to opine differently and the report goes on to say these concerns can be even greater if truck traffic passes through residential areas school zones or other places where pedestrians are common and extra caution is warranted do you think that that statement is incorrect again I trust that the Planning Commission has done their research again I don't have any of my own research to come to a conclusion of that nature at the last hearing you presented diagrams of where the trucks are going to go when they leave the site if this should be approved do any of those trucks pass through residential areas yes there are residential houses along those routes those are all County routes that we were utilizing and do any of those routes run through school zones one may be going through a school zone and do any of the truck routes go through places where pedestrians are common again I I would have to research you know pedestrian Crossings along you know the entire stretch of roadway to come to a specific conclusion of that the report goes on to say given the public health and safety concerns reviewing board should ensure that proposed truck routes can be identified that are away from downtown centers residential areas historic districts school zones recreational parks daycare centers places of worship or overburdened communities in your study did you identify if the truck routes here would be through downtown centers residential areas historic districts school zones Parks daycare centers places or places of worship I did not perform that evaluation okay the study also suggests and again this is in the context of warehouse and not in the context of light industrial although both have trucks that traffic impact study should include a truck and automobile trip analysis to project and break out different vehicle trips throughout the entire day not just peak hours to capture the full potential magnitude generated from a proposed use this one says proposed Warehouse I know you're not a warehouse because this is talking about warehousing my question is did your traffic impact study can you can you repeat the portion that you quoted my objection is in a roundabout way she's getting to the point that she's analyzing that document and analyzing warehousing and it's not it's antithetical to what this application again I I I think the board is aware of the position you've taken with respect to that document as well as the fact that I think Council said she's not making that comparison and again all the witnesses can address the extent to which that particular document is or is not applicable to this particular these particular proceedings and again I I TR knowing the board well many years now I trust the board uh is more than equipped to make uh uh those the appropriate analysis based on the evidence presented so my advice is to continue to allow uh with that understanding these questions yes obje thank you so my my question is much more succinct way of saying it ch my question is did your traffic impact study the one that was last revised in April of 2023 include truck and automobile trip analysis to project and break out different vehicle trips throughout the entire day and not just peak hours no because our level of truck traffic is not such that would um have the same level as what the warehouse which is what that uh publication was concerning well did your traffic analysis show any comparisons to Warehouse uh it did not know so there is there anything in your traffic study about warehousing oh there was one than the one erand word no okay so what does warehousing have to do with whether or not you analyze vehicle trips throughout the entire day well because the guidance that they're referring to is because it was guidance for a use that generates such a large level of trucks even a supermarket shopping center those things can generate trucks obviously much less than a warehouse there are many different uses that generate can generate a truck traffic amount warehouses obviously be on the very very high end which would again amop pining that is why uh the policy that is being written looks at um you know or suggesting looking at various times of day because truck numbers volumes are just so high coming from a warehouse but here again the basic question is did your study look at different vehicle trips throughout the entire day no I do want to turn back to the study now so we just went through and I'm sorry the study not the Capacity Analysis the study that was last revised in April of 2023 than you just for ease I'll call that one the study and the other one the Capacity Analysis so going back to the study from 2023 we we just went through bit of a discussion here about how definitions matter right the use matters you you've indicated this is a light is it l manufacturing use is that what you call it yes that's what the application is for and that it's not a warehouse correct so how you define this use clearly matters to your analysis correct correct right so what use did you use for running all of the data analysis in your study when you say use you're referring to the use of the anticipated project you're referring to like an I an Institute of Transportation Engineers land use zoning use what are you no I'm asking when you looked at your analysis what use did you assume would be the use that this project is so we assumed light manufacturing for the light manufacturing space and office for the office space that's included within the manufacturing building and you did not anticipate any warehousing use in your data the definition of manufacturing in the it assumes there may be a portion of the building that is used for warehousing whatever it is they are manufacturing within the building so there may be a warehousing component just like there's an office component within the building but it is serving the manufacturing use that is the overriding use of the of the structure now you called out the office use separately is that correct yes even though it is a component of manufacturing yes the reason why I I don't know if you're going to ask the why the reason why is because the Township's own zoning ordinance as it relates to parking pulls that out separately so I want it to be consistent with the fact that the township looks at the office interior to a manufacturing building as something different than the manufacturing building but you didn't look specifically at warehousing as a separate component correct correct so I believe you testified last last time that when you were looking at and I don't know whether it was trip generation or truck trip generation specifically but when you were looking at that that there were about 50 studies that it used to come up with certain numbers is that GNA ring a bell from your tesy last time I believe it is the the overall manufacturing data set for daily traffic includes I believe 50 sample sites and I think you said that some of them were had significantly less traffic generation and some of those had significantly more correct and I think I remember that specifically as the trucks you testified that a number of the studies approximately half showed that there would be zero or one truck generated in the peak hour is that correct those sites had zero or one not I'm not projecting our site but those sites when counts were done had zero or one truck generated in the peak hours but I don't believe you testified as to what the high end of the studies would generate so if you were looking at those 50 studies how many trucks would be generated or how many trucks were generated by some of the studied sites on the higher end of the 50 studies I don't remember offand I'm seeing if I have I don't think I have that data set with me to be able to share with it so I I can't speak for certain what the high-end number was mathematically if half the sites were zero or one and you've estimated six is it fair to say that on the high end of the studies it is sign those sites generated significantly more than six trucks in the peak hour I'd be careful using the number significant just because when I to get to the six trucks we are utilizing a formula that looks at the square footage of the building as basically a multiplying variable so if there was a let's say a million square foot manufacturing building which I don't think there is in the data set and it generated 20 trucks which again would be significantly more than 01 it may not because we're looking at a building that is you know uh quarter of that size or so or combination building quarter of size it may actually be in line with the data that we're utilizing here but again I obviously if some sites are 01 there'll be certain sites it'll be more than half the sites would be more than one truck trip in a peak hour if that's the simple answer it would have to just mathematically far more than one if the average is six right yes yes okay in your report do you go through that analysis of how you came up with 89 trucks per day and six trucks in the peak hour and the square footage and the studies is there any place I could find that in your report as to how you came to those hour those numbers um well I referenced the it trip generation manual um again I believe that the Township's own traffic engineer obviously has um ability to utilize that manual and check the work to make sure that we've done it um accurately but the the number 89 truck trips per day is not in your report at all is it uh no because we studied the peak hours of the site which not the 24-hour period so the board's engineer hasn't had the ability to to look into the mathematics behind how you came to 89 trips that was not in your report well the board engineer I guess heard the same testimony you heard at the last hearing and I guess he's here tonight so if he found that to be inaccurate I would imagine he could speak up about it but if I wanted to say show it to another traffic engineer how would they check that work they would utilize the same reference manual that I showed in my report and they would run their own calculation but we don't have your calculations uh you don't have my calculation I'm sure I that they'd be able to duplicate it though if they needed to you believe so going back to this manufacturing use what is the definition of manufacturing in the it you want me to read it in I do a manufacturing facility is an area where the primary activity is the conversion of raw materials or parts into finished products size and type of activity may vary substantially from one facility to another in addition to the actual production of goods a Manufacturing facil facility typically has an office and may provide space for warehouse research and Associated functions General light industrial land use 110 and Industrial Park land use 130 are related uses all right and why did you choose manufacturing uh because we are per the uh application to the board proposing a light manufacturing development and was there a light manufacturing use category in the it no now you indicated that manufacturing does it say in addition to the actual production of goods a manufacturing facility typically has an office etc etc in addition to the actual production of goods yes a manufacturing facility typically has an office provide space for warehouse research and Associated functions now under the zoning code here light manufacturing is defined as an activity which involves the Assembly of products from previously prepared materials and which does not involve the synthesis of chemicals or the processing of raw materials so you're you use the it use category which requires the actual production of goods correct it involves the conversion of raw materials or parts into finished products and the light manufacturing definition under the code does not allow the processing of raw materials correct correct for the your definition that you read I right so the definition of light manufacturing under the code is inherently not the same use as manufacturing under the it again it appears that the Township's code is specific in what manufacturing is allowed versus not allowed again this is the land use code that I believe is most consistent compared to the other land use codes uh that the it has again the it is a national publication and obviously the zoning ordinance and definition is specific to the township so going to your traffic Study last revised in April of 2003 we could start on page 2023 thank you we can start on page 10 so when you look at table one proposed chip trip generation and you have land use building a 97,5 square ft light and it's light manufacturing it land use 140 you're assume you assumed in the this data that it was a manufacturing use under it correct yes and then you have here weekday morning peak hour of 50 trips how did you come up with 50 trips is that a function of the use every use in the it has a formula associated with it and based on the whatever variables this variable is square footage so basically I plug in a 97,000 squ foot manufacturing building that use and it will tell me the projected number of trips it would generate in the going in and out of the site so if the square footage goes up the number of projected Peaks under this methodology sorry number of project number of projected trips under this methodology would go up correct correct and if the square footage were to go down the number of projected uh trips would go down correct and if you change the use that would also change number changes the formula all right so each of these numbers in your report in this table one and table two are all based on the Assumption of manufacturing use times the number of square footage proposed yes how about the 89 truck trips is that also a function of use and square footage yes so if the square footage were to go down the number of anticipated truck trips would also go down under that methodology correct yes were you asked to run any models based on smaller buildings no were you asked to run any models based on buildings that had a square footage and an F that complied with zoning no looking at table three the trip generation comparison I believe you testified at the last meeting that just under that table three there's a sentence that says as such the impact of the proposed light manufacturing development on the roadway Network would be a fraction of the impact of the office development I think you testified at the last hearing that fraction meant 80 to 90% I mean anything less than one to me would be a fraction but you you testified about 80 to 90% correct yes if you looked at the comparison yes okay so this table only Compares peak hour trips correct correct overall typical for an office building what percentage of traffic for an office building would occur in peak hours I don't know the exact number off top of my head it's probably around 60 to 70% would be during the peak hours and how about for a light manufacturing use let's break that down into truck trips for example would you anticipate that 60 to 70% of those truck trips would be in the peak hour no so this analysis is not capturing the difference between truck trips in the peak hour sorry sorry this table is not capturing the difference between when there'll be more trucks or less trucks in anything other than peak hour correct and when you say that the roadway Network that the impact the proposed proposed light manufacturing development on the roadway Network would be a fraction of the impact of the office development that's just in the peak hour just in the peak hour and just looking at the vehicle trip generation and that says nothing about the overall impact during the day correct is there anything in this report that provides analysis of the impact on the roadways in totality for the day again we studied the peak hours which are when the volumes on the roadways are at their highest so that would be no no all right let's talk about parking on page 13 of the traffic analysis traffic impact study you provide um a paragraph talking about the parking supply for parking you also use land use code for manufacturing correct yes now does this site have sufficient parking to comply with the Township's zoning code no what is the differential in spaces between what's required under the code and what's being proposed I believe what's required by code is 629 what is provided including the the electric vehicle parking credit would be 328 so my math would be there would be 301 spaces shy now what is your justification in this report for suggesting that the number of proposed parking spaces is sufficient despite the fact that it is less than what's required by the ordinance we look at a publication called The Institute of Transportation Engineers parking generation uh manual uh and that that provides specific data for manufacturing uses uh and based on that data uh I believe there is sufficient parking on this site now for that manufacturing use that's for a use that does involve the processing of raw materials correct uh the definition for the it yes now when you came to the conclusion that there would be sufficient parking despite a variance being required did you look at the projected number of employees on the site um I don't what the projected number of employees because there's no specific end user did you look at the number of shifts on the site again I have no known shifts the only reason that you've provided in the report to justify having 301 fewer spaces than required under the ordinance is a calculation done under the manufacturing use of the it manual yes which uses square footage which is the same thing that the township ordinance used uses but comes to a different result they have different formulas yes like to turn to your driveway site design and for this I may ask you and I don't know if you have access to it to pull up uh the diagrams that you showed at the last meeting that showed the Improvement that you're making to the site driveway think I have it so when we get it if we could just identify I apologize my notes from the last meeting don't indicate what exhibit it was marked as but I'm referring to the package of I believe it was 13 pages that were submitted on December Deber 20th of 2023 and specifically C1 which is a document you testified to the last time sorry which one C1 was it an exhibit or it was just a submission okay so it wasn't marked as an exhibit it was referenced because he was submitted more than 10 days in advance of the last year okay so we're just calling it what it is that's fine then I'll call it uh what's marked as C1 the driveway layout plan which was submitted as part of that December 20th 2023 package now Mr SE I believe you testified that the site driveway which comes out to Allen Road uh was required to be modified in a number of ways is that correct yes and that you would be adding a several stop bars is that correct uh there'll be stop bars yes uh that you're adding an overhead clearance bar is that correct that is correct are you making any modifications to any curbing yes we are widening it so the curbing would have to be reev modified you're widening the driveway yes so the driveway is going to take up more space than it does currently correct right and what other modifications have I missed that you're proposed as far as application uh certain signage and an island deconstructed and why are these modifications needed um to help direct large wheel-based vehicles to the right coming out of the driveway onto Allen Road and were these improvements something that were required or should have been there when it was an office building no and why not well I don't again the Lesser tractor trailer volume than an office would generate obviously um did not have um the same um did not have an issue with let's say um certain turn templates or the way that the uh a larger wheel-based vehicle may turn onto Allen Road uh in addition uh the applicant is looking at again um directing tractor trailers although we don't think they would go to the left out of the site towards the hills because it's not the most convenient path to an interstate highway uh reaffirming that direction so is it fair to say that the changes to the driveway were needed because you were changing from an office use to a light manufacturing use some of them yes yes some of them no okay which ones yes well again I you know technically you know there's nothing that is requiring us to prevent trucks from making a left turn that is something the applicant is looking to do based on what they heard as possible concerns with tractor trailers going left and through the hills um certain items are necessary having a wider radius so that Vehicles any tra tractor trailer can turn onto Allen Road without swinging into the opposite lane that is something that is necessary for this use or any use that would have uh tractor trailer traffic and the office building did not have significant tractor trailer traffic correct didn't yeah it had probably minimal yes and all of these improvements you mentioned the widening of the driveway and the changes to the Curbing and the stop bars and the overhead bars those are all being made on lot two is that correct uh I believe so yes and that is not the same lot that houses the current office building is that correct that is correct I have a few more questions about the actual internal site plan do you know if any of the drive ISS within the site are striped when you say Drive aisles you mean like the Ring Road around the site or the parking lot aisles no the Ring Road around the site uh I don't believe the site plan shows any specific striping at this point so there's nothing to delineate one lane going in one direction from another Lane going in the other direction uh there's nothing um not on the Ring Road it looks like um one of the parking aisles when it reaches the Ring Road does have a double yellow line indicating um you know two direction of traffic for people to keep to the right of the double yellow line but the Ring Road does not have such a delineation correct uh per the plan it does not and that ring road is it going to be used by both trucks and cars uh yes and are there any turning movements that the truck that a truck a tractor trailer might make where it would go over into the side of traffic going in the opposite direction um possibly I will say that that said the tractor trailer route is likely the utilizing the Ring Road and going around the south of the building while the passenger vehicles most likely are going around the north of the building or north on the North section of the Ring Road because that would get them to their parking areas whereas the tractor trailers they want to get to the south of the building because that's where the loading areas would be is there anything to stop tractor trailers from going one way or the other on the Ring Road um I don't see any physical uh um restriction and is there anything to stop passenger vehicles from deciding to go clockwise or counterclockwise on the The Ring Road again other than possible signage that would you know way finding signage that would direct them to the proper parking areas which is not uncommon uh in you know areas like this is that signage proposed uh I don't see one no now I'll ask again are there any movements truck movements where they would be turning and they would go into the other lane where there's oncoming traffic um I don't know I I don't have the Turning movements interior to the site on this plan I believe they were on the plans that were submitted and put into evidence by the civil engineer so they should be loaded on the system there and I do recall that when I asked the civil engineer about internal turning movements he asked me to defer those questions to the traffic engineer they often do uh see if this is it if any idea where in this it was in his site civil set sorry I don't know the page it was a it was a diagram specifically I believe called truck turning template I think I'm getting close there we go maybe you go so having a chance to look at that are there any turning movements let me back up do you know what truck was used to generate this template and for the record this is titled truck turning plant paired by Gladstone design the vehicle they used was a WB 67 which is the large TR largest tractor trailer type vehicle sheet one of one the date is September 16th 2022 I'm going to check for a revised item it's page 50 out of 53 of the PDF I believe that PDF was marked in its entirety as a single exhibit so looking at the template are there any movements that the truck would make according to the this template design that shows the truck Crossing into oncoming traffic um again there's no double yellow line as you indicated earlier on the plan um it does look like when a truck is leaving The Bays uh and they're swinging to their left to get onto the Ring Road from building a uh there is a portion that they utilize um I would say the the entire Road and then they will looks like they'll line themselves into the right portion of the lane again I I don't think this is common um in areas in which there are tractor trailers or else you'd have roadways that would be um significantly wide so when you have you know very little uh you know I'm going to say very little truck traffic um I don't think this is a condition that uh concerns me but yes there is you know when they are making their turn they may be swinging across um the full travel Lane when you say very little truck traffic is that the same as the 89 truck trips per day well again yes 89 truck trips per day or as we said you know six in an hour even if it's 8 in an hour during one of the nonstudied hours again you're talking about one truck every you know likely in some cases you know 8 minutes 10 minutes so again I think that the tractor trailer leaving the Bay of building a you know would just wait for the incoming truck if there happened to be one to pass before they would turn out they' have to wait for that truck to pass anyway to make the turn since they'd be waiting at the stop bar and is there a design change that could be made so that the truck could exit that bay without going into oncoming traffic you're using the oncoming traffic lane the Ring Road could be widened however I again typically would not recommend additional pavement to be utilized um for the for an instance like this I think that the fact that it is again an area where there is limited traffic the truck would have to wait again for cars on the Ring Road to pass anyway uh to turn out that I don't see that it being a safety concern are there any other places where a truck will be turning into oncoming traffic or into the oncoming traffic lane on this site as it's designed um again looks like similar condition coming out of the building B dos um would have the same condition where they would again have to wait for someone to pass before they turn on to the Ring Road to leave those seem to be the the two conditions uh that I see on this plan are there any at where the driveway hits the top of the Ring Road um if the tractor trailer makes a right turn on the Ring Road um it would swing into again uh the opposite lane again a tractor trailer be that would be coming in would be waiting at the Stop Bar they would have to make sure that there's no vehicles on the ringroad before before they made the turn that said again if I was a not a tractor trailer driver but the fastest way to the Loading areas is actually making a left because that would take them to the south side of the buildings where the loading areas occur as opposed to around the north side which is not where the loading bays are is there anything to prevent a truck from turning right nothing prevents them as shown in the plan but obviously we'd be happy to work with the townships professionals if they think that there is whether a physical or wayfinding sign that is necessary at that location I believe those are all the questions that I have for you this evening Mr seckler yes redirect you want to do redirect after each and every uh questioner or you want to do redirect after right now pleasure the chair we we have another attorney who will be cross examining this evening and then members of the public will be asking questions just because of the questions she asked discre of the chair go ahead Mr thank you keeping that up Mr uh keeping that exhibit up um that's been reviewed by both Mr Fishinger and by Mr SCH have correct that's my understanding yes they've raised no objection to the safe any safety concerns relative to the movements of trucks within with within that ring Road have they I didn't see anything in any of the review letters that we've received okay um you're aware that this is this site there was a discussion about the processing of raw materials not being part of the it manual correct I believe it's the processing of raw materials is included in the it the township definition excludes it so but the town but the client the applicant is bound by the local code correct correct so the applicant is bound by the not processing of raw materials requirement correct all right and so you know that this is a county alen road is a County Road correct correct and this use is a permitted use in the Zone correct light manufacturing yes in the ET zone is permitted right and um so the mothers and fathers who drafted the code were familiar with the fact that light manufacturing would be permitted and that trucks would be using the county road that was adjacent to it correct my understanding of the zoning process and I'm sure the next witness will opine and have more expertise in this matter is that when a use is permitted the traffic and type of traffic that is goes along with that use is in anticipated or uh is accounted for when that use is uh being drafted as a permitted use there was discuss right there you're testifying Your Capacity as a traffic expert not as a professional planner correct of course yes please proceed I would only ask him a question as a professional traffic engineer Mr Mr uh seckler um in your professional opinion as a traffic engineer um you had analyzed the 2026 build column uh on uh in your analysis there was much discussion about that and you're aware that that there was discussion testimony that in 2018 this this site was 95% occupied yes if we assume that this site were 95% occupied would your analysis of the condition at Fellowship Road and Allen Road be any different the condition of uh the build condition for the proposed use I don't anticipate there be any significant difference because in our analysis we looked at the trip generation based on the it the previous office use if it was 95% occupied would have generated more Vehicles than what this proposed use would generate in addition and I think this is kind of easy to see in the site plan if you compare to the aerial you know the aerial of the site or when the buildings were still standing showed a office building with you know I I estimated about 700 parking spaces so there obviously was the anticipation of having that level of cars that would need to come in and out of that site versus uh the application that's before the board um and as was test testified to the number of parking spaces is you know less than half that so again in terms of just traffic generation even looking at the plan itself um we would anticipate that the office building would generate more Vehicles than the manufacturing use is it possible that the Level D that you identified in the build condition if this can property were continue to be used and 95% occupi that that e could stay at an e or even higher uh it was in that case it was the D and I believe that it I believe that it at absolutely would be a level service D um if this if we studied that intersection back in you know 2018 if I go back in time redo counts a likely operated level service D I have nothing further thank you Mr chair I have a very limited number of follow-up questions based on those specific questions advice to the chair is as with the redirect uh on the heels of the cross the recross should be on the redirect to allow thank you is there anything in the Capacity Analysis that you submitted that actually calculates what a vehicle uh number of vehicle trips would be if the office building were at 95% not within the Capacity Analysis that's my question is there anything in the written submission that looked at that hypothetical situation no but I'm using my experiences is preparing traffic impact studies uh to opine that that would be a level service D in the build condition if this was an office building again but you haven't submitted any mathematical computations to that affect this board no I have not and then just going back to the use all of the data in your traffic analysis and everything you've submitted to the board relies on the it use of manufacturing that assumes that there will be a processing of raw materials is that correct we utilize the it land use for manufacturing yes and that assumes the processing of raw materials correct it says the primary activity would be the conversion of raw materials or parts into finished product and the zoning requires a use here or allows a use here that prohibits the processing of raw materials is that correct per your definition yes thank you Mr chairman before we jump to the next Attorney there's a couple clarification clarifying questions I have Mr seckler if if we can do them now um Matt just a few clarifications um I just want to make sure I heard your testimony right and there wasn't any inconsistencies why was the office trip generation separated out from the manufacturing uh it was twofold one because that's how the parking is calculated per the Township's uh parking standards so I felt that when looking at trip generation we that's something that maybe the township would want to see I would say that in terms of trip generation since offices generate more traffic on a per square foot basis than a manufacturing building it actually creates a higher trip generation so it's more conservative to split them out separately if we did it just as manufacturing it would actually be less trip Generation Well I agree it's more conservative for the board that was done specifically at my request in my first review memo I believe because the percentage of office was higher than the typical does you recall that does that sound correct I do recall that now yes I just want to make sure the reason was clear it was that my requests not something else um moving on I apologize for jumping on going to the driveway at Allen Road were you aware has the county changed the configuration of Allen Road between when the office building was built and today yes Allen Road well I I can't speak from when it was built but I do know prior to probably fall of 2020 uh Allen Road was a uh two-lane in each Direction roadway and they modified it to make it one lane in each Direction with shoulders and a uh at least from our driveway to the east a two-way left turn lane again I can't speak to back when the office building was built originally but that's you know pre-2020 would that have an effect on the design of the driveway so that would the driveway when it was built as an office building be different than today because of that yes again the location or how Vehicles turn out of the driveway especially uh a tractor trailer um it likely the county likely would have allowed it to make a right turn into either of the two Eastbound Lanes if Vehicles were coming out of the site in the current condition of Allen Road um the county is requiring us to stay within the now only lane along Allen Road in the eastbound Direction not to have the tra to trailer um uh have any infringement on the two-way left turn lane so uh basically it's reduced the area that we could have our truck turn into which again was one of the reason I guess one of the reasons why uh the Turning templates required uh that radi to be increased okay and then I'm really going to test your memory here um you said that with regard to the internal circulation and trucks using the entire width of the Ring Road or driveway aisles that it was reviewed by my office and the other professionals and we didn't have any comments um um draw your attention to my January 31st memo um for instance comment 7 which is says as depicted trucks making a right turn onto the Ring Road utilize the entire width of the Ring Road to complete the maneuver internal circulation should be modified to eliminate this condition would you care to update your testimony with that regard now that you've drawn my attention to that I I would state that uh it does look like that you would like to see a modification to that condition to satisfy common 7 I just wanted the record to be clear that we did not the professionals did not approve all of that we I at least had comments in that regard um I won't speak specifically for your site engineer but I believe he agreed to provide updated turning templates and I don't believe we've seen them yet does that sound correct I don't think I was there for that hearing so I'm going to have to considering you were right on that number seven I'm going to trust that that was what was said as well okay thank you Mr chairman I just wanted to get those clarifications thank you Mr F so Mr Berlin you will be up next thank you thank you Mr Berlin Miss Smith took a little over an hour and just to be mindful we have a lot of people here that want to ask questions at the end of the meeting uh towards the end of the meeting so I keep on repeating myself I don't think I can finish in an hour but I think we can find a place where we can just turn keep that in mind the time yes I want to give people an opportunity tonight go on at the next uh next meeting um first of all before I get to my cross examination I'd like to indicate that I appear here with two hats um I'm the attorney for the U Fellowship residence Council but I've also entered an appearance on behalf of myself as a resident of fellowship and I'm an attorney so I'm representing myself as an attorney I know there's a a problem that if you're a uh you want to speak to this board and you have an attorney you have to go through the attorneys well I go through myself as an attorney uh sir you mind have I call you Matt sure okay you can call me Don uh now you did a your you when I say you I mean your company um U you did a traffic study on August 2nd 2022 correct we did traffic counts on August 2nd 2022 traffic count that's a better term um did independent of that were any further traffic counts done yes then we did counts on January 10th 2023 and then most recently counts on January Mr chairman asked and answered we could allow the repeat let let's let's all be mindful and of the time and respectful of everyone's time and make the most of our time please proceed answer the question T in addition Tuesday January 23rd 2024 and Thursday January 31st 2024 did any of those U um traffic counts uh include a different count of the driveway of 150 what what do you mean by different count of 150 well did did you do another traffic count at those dates of the um driveway from 150 Allen I believe that only those dates we did counts so we did not do counts outside of those four dates okay now the the traffic I'm going to use the word traffic study but I mean traffic count okay uh included in your study uh on that date was traffic going in and out of 150 Allen driveway during the morning peak hours and the evening peak hours correct on yes we did do counts going into and out of 150 Allen right now can you tell the board how many tractor trailers entered the driveway uh during the morning peak hours on that date answer it hasn't been as answer I went all his testimony if I may Mr but this is examination Mr BL the board as of probably everyone else has a copy of the report so the board's seen the report theyve read the report they'll reread the report um so please make most use of your time but that question is not the question I'm going to ask is not in the please make the most use of your time by asking questions that the board doesn't have in front the answer is right in front of well can you tell me again how many tractor trailers exited the uh driveway on August 2nd 2022 during the morning hours zero and how many um drove out of the driveway at that time zero and how many many um drove out came drove out of the driveway in the evening Prime Time Zero and how many entered the driveway during that period of time zero right and the same thing with trucks correct I thought I was answering trucks I'm sorry believe it was trucks I my answers were related to trucks I thought your answers were well if your answers were related to trucks they would also include tractor trailers correct correct yes okay so we don't have to go through that now can you tell the board how many tractor trailers entered or left the driveway between 8:45 a.m. and 7 p.m. zero when we did our counts in 2022 2023 and 2024 does your report anywhere refer to that time to 2022 2023 and 2024 our report includes traffic count data within the appendix no I'm Excuse me I'm talking about the traffic study on August 2nd uh 2022 you don't refer to the traffic between the prime times do you oh you outside of the Prime Times oh correct we do not okay War are we supposed to guess what Mr Means when he says prime time there's no such traffic term as prime time I'm assuming you mean Peak Travel time or peak hour is that okay please obviously okay I'm sorry I thought you Mr Belin Mr Belin please proceed all right now um when you did the August um 2nd um traffic count uh that was 150 Allen Road was just an office building correct uh it was an office building I think it was you know primarily vacant at the time but it was still an office building in use all right well at an office building you would expect would you not mail delivery trucks uh they're May yes I assume they get mail at the office building Federal Express trucks I would imagine they would office supply trucks I imagine they would right and did your did your um count U indicate any of those trucks we did not see any of them during the peak hours that we counted I imagine that they did occur it may have been outside of when we counted or it could have utilized the internal driveways that connect that building to other buildings um so the mail truck could have gone from one to the other without utilizing that driveway fair enough but you would not expect tractor trailers at an office building would you uh not regularly okay occasionally if potentially if someone's getting a delivery of new desks or something like that but not regularly now how many loading docks were there at 150 Allen at that time August 2022 I don't I don't know now your report refers to articulated trucks and singal sing Single unit trucks can you explain to the board what they are so single unit trucks is what's commonly known as a box truck uh basically um again usually is uh 40t in dimension or less um a articulated truck is what people normally refer to as a tractor trailer that would have a separate front cab and then the larger trailer and they could uh the trailer could be up to usually 53 feet in length now I refer you to um page eight of your September 16 2022 the original or the revised report the the original well I think the revised report would have more updated information in it but I understand that but I'm referring to that initial report okay all okay you got it yep now when you wrote this report um you made reference to the it oh I forgot the term now the the document from it that you're depending upon trip generation manual or a parking generation the the whole report fifth generation right the okay you you had that available to you at that at the time you wrote this report rep yes that yes okay now on page eight table two it says proposed trip generation truck trips correct yes and and as I understand it four entered in the morning this is a projected trip generation so yeah I just want to make sure for enters I'm just using the T for enters in the morning yes and the PM three entered and five exited ask and answer not only by me I'm assuming Mr bin is going to get to a I'm going to get question right you're correct question hasn't already been asked right where did you get that information from that is also within the it trip generation manual it has different data for and formulas for vehicle trips and truck trips right now you cannot tell us can you how many of those proposed trucks were tractor trailers no that's that projection only looks at trucks I can't opine the projected at what size of those Vehicles now when you made no strike that just bear with me now at that time your projection was for the completion of that building in 2024 correct yes typically we look when we prepare our studies we look two years into the future that report was written in 2022 so we looked at 2024 as the build year and it turned out that's somewhat optimistic more than optimistic uh I'm trying not to repeat so just bear with me now you are aware of course that the proposal requires 24 loading docks right their proposal is for 24 Lo or or Bays whatever you want to call them yes are you aware that there is testimony in this matter that a tractor trailer will bring raw materials to the site approximately twice a week I and I emphasize the word a tractor trailer I don't is do you know whose testimony that was referring to yes I I'm not aware of someone who said there'll be a tractor trailer bringing raw material materials okay are you aware that there is testimony in this matter that although 24 loading spaces are proposed only approximately 25% of the spaces would be used for tractor trailers objection that is not what the testimony said I have copies of the transcripts and I've highlighted the the information Mr Berlin continues to use this 25 number is not accurate I have the transcripts I I I heard the objection Mr Mr blind are you referencing specific testimony yes I am and I will be happy to supply Mr B can I haven't finished the question so In fairness to you you can't answer it you're right the the the the uh the uh are you you referencing specific testimony from a specific individual on a specific date and you have a record of it yes and I I will supply the board with that reference well well well M do you do you are you refusing to tell the witness no I said it and when and I don't have it written down here so I will supply the board right he but his testimony is he's not aware of it whether it exists or not but you don't have to paraphrase his testimony the record will reflect his testimony Mr B please if there is such testimony you're not aware of that testimony correct I don't believe there was testimony specific to a manufacturing use on utilizing 25% of the loading docks all right now I'm a little confused and my friend here who probably says I'm always confused but yes you all right uh how did you come up and I I know you explained it but I don't understand it so you're going to have to explain it again um how did you come up with 69 trucks during what period of time are those trucks coming in I believe it was 89 trucks trips 89 truck trips 89 truck trips right all right so the it is a compilation of data from that data they provide a formula that formula based on the square footage of the building projects or calculates a amount of vehicle trips and also the amount of truck trips on a daily basis or a peak hour basis the 89 truck trips were based on the square footage of this building and it being a manufacturing use per the it and based on that formula it was 89 trips over the day which likely is around 45 trucks truck comes in truck leaves that that's basically two trips and that will happen every day that is what is projected obviously there may be days like on the weekends may may not have that but that would be the typical week typical weekday now my question is what hours are those 45 trucks coming in and leaving that is on a 24-hour basis okay well the projection is on 24 hours but uh have you supplied information that um this facility will be open 24 hours a day I I have not this is based on the it looked at looks at the weekday truck traffic it could be 89 trips in 17 hours or 89 trip truck trips in 20 hours but again they look at they've counted sites and over the entire weekday uh it's estimated to have 89 truck trips or could be 45 trucks in 10 hours between 8:00 in the morning and 5:00 at night that's nine hours nine hours again we also have the data for the peak hour so we do know estimating what those hours would be but yes there could be fluctuations in the in between hours well let me ask you this question if during the peak hours as you have set forth in your report there have been as I count it seven trucks entering and leaving or eight trucks entering and leaving correct four entering three um four five leaving three entering five leaving that would be eight trucks I think you're looking at an older version of the report I most certainly am so again it would be six truck trips in the morning six truck trips in the evening no I'm referring to the August 2022 right which was revised wait so it' be eight trucks during Prime Times again that's now six trucks in the updated report which was April 19 2023 sir my question is I object you don't need to object the the Mr Berlin Do you have a basis for utilizing an old report that was updated what's your basis for for spending the the the the cross examination time that this board is going to allow you to have asking about a report that was subsequently updated Mr Warner I'll be very happy to explain that pleas please do so I asked the witness whether he had available when he wrote the August 2022 the it fifth generation uh document correct fifth generation for parking or or 11th generation for traffic the whole report so Mr SE can you answer the question yes I did have that publication when I came up with those values but again those what publication was it what generation of was the trip generation 11th Edition 11th Edition trip generation right okay 11th Edition but you cited the fifth the fifth edition is the park generation manual and I think you're to help you with this and you're referring to trip generation I believe so your update is how many vehicles are coming in and out during these Prime Times it would be and this is in the traffic study table two page 10 of the April 19th 2023 study it's four in two out in the morning two in four out in the evening so how many vehicles how many trucks no no vehicle yeah trucks trucks it would I just said 4 in two out in the morning that would be 6 two in four out in the evening that's also six so if you add them together it's 12 if you take them separate it's six now um but that only accounts for the I use the word prime time but you know what I'm talking about correct peak hours yes and now U you are of the opinion that during a 24hour period of time uh 89 trucks will come through correct again my opinion is based on the it and yes yes but you you are aware that this facility is not going to operate for 24 hours isn't that correct I don't know if there's been any testimony to that well well there has been but we'll get to that okay let's assume that it's only open for 10 hours all right yep and we have to take out the let's take out the prime time how many hours are prime time in the morning well one in the morning one in the evening so we're you're going to take out those two hours yeah okay so we then have 10 hours correct yes in which there are 89 trucks coming through correct no they'll be 77 because you have to subtract out the 12 during the peak hours well I'm talking about all right 77 during 10 hours so that it's a almost eight trucks per hour correct per the math yes okay compared to no trucks when this was an office building again limited trucks again as you referenced earlier mail trucks FedEx trucks things like correct yes okay bear with meair I okay there an L with no problem okay you can proceed Mr BR okay all right on U September 1st 2023 you filed a Amendment um an updated uh driveway layout plan correct yes you spoke about that am I correct you were asked to do that by a representative of signature Acquisitions I mean you just said pull it out of the air but it was also in response to comments raised by the board the board engineer and the county um so it wasn't n just the applicant wishing for it to be done were you told why these modifications were necessary uh based on my reading of the review letters transcripts and the county review letter we received was that the original design was not acceptable to the county and therefore revisions had to be made well maybe my question was inarticulate let me go back that modification what that modification uh does is restricts a turn out of the driveway correct of of tractor trailers correct um it's it's that modification that I'm referring to all right were you told why that modification was necessary I was not given a specific charge other than the fact that there seemed to be concerns with the truck route if tractor trailers made a left out of the site well you in your own mind when you did it was there a reason for prohibiting the traffic from making a left turn in my mind it was the fact that if you make a left between the topography and the fact that it is a longer route to any Interstate it would be advantageous to not have tractor trailers make that left and therefore to be restricted should be restricted to make a right why was it advantageous not to have them make a left again as I mentioned topography but also having tractor trailers travel longer distances and more time within the community versus getting accessibility to the interstates faster it had nothing to do with the fact that if you make a left term you go through a residential area well again I think the speed limits that would then slow down the trucks would be accounted for in the fact that that is the longer route and it does have more challenging topography that's not my question my question is did it have anything whatsoever to do with going through a residential area well well again I think residential areas have different speed limits and it's faster for a truck to utilize the interstate than driving through that residential area are you aware that the engineer testified in this matter that one of the multiple reasons that trucks should only turn right when leaving 150 Allen was because of a residential area to the left his exact words were truck traffic should go to the right because of a residential area and Jeff that's at 1 hour 23 minutes and 17 seconds Mr Michelle's testimony this is traffic testimony I don't understand the relevance of this Mr blin I'm asking he was aware Mr bin first of all I'm going to ask both Council to stop addressing each other uh solicits it's not necessary it's inappropriate un it's unproductive I didn't say you did uh it's unproductive I think you both understand that that it's it's been done by both of you prev viously so I don't remember that okay that's fine but uh but the last person to do it was not you the the the uh the uh you're asking him if he remembers Mr michelo testifying the way you just asked correct the way you just say right please proceed this is your this is your cross-examination everybody's time is going to be limited to a reasonable period of time you can choose how you want to use that reasonable period of time as long as it's not arbitrary and capricious not it's not arbitrary it's not capricious and in fact it's going to be roughly equal to your predecessor not withstanding the fact that one would logically assume after each cross examination by a council uh the next Council uh would have some of the same questions so they wouldn't be taking any longer if anything they'd be taking shorter that would be reasonable and not arbitrary and not capricious and not unreasonable Mr Berlin thank you for addressing the standard and allowing me the opportunity to respond to that you're welcome sir please proceed you you heard the question please I am aware of uh the civil engineers testimony you recall that I recall it yes please proceed and are you aware that the residential area he was referring to is the Hills uh I know where the hills are so I assume that's what he was referring to all do you understand that there is opposition in this town to trucks especially tractors I'm sorry let him finish the question but you said opposition by a panel did I M hear you opposition in the town oh opposition in the town okay I'll you want to rephrase the question I'll rephrase my question all right that there's uh opposition from fellowship Village the hills and there is opposition from other portions of the Town especi Mr Belin do you have a question to ask him as an if you won't interrupt me I'll finish my question well I what I'm saying is is you don't have to assume opposition from other people ask the actual question with respect to the test the testimony of the traffic engineer are you aware there's opposition to tractor trailers going through residential areas I'm aware there's opposition Council here tonight and I assume that could be one of the items they oppose do you you feel that opposition is meritorious no okay as a traffic engineer do you agree if possible plans should be made to prohibit trucks from traveling through residential areas I think trucks and where they're regulated is not within an applicant engineer purview that's typically at a you know whether it's jurisdictional County State uh Council point of view as an applicant's traffic engineer I'm looking at making sure that the routes I provide and run my analysis are routes that are legal routes for all the vehicles that would be generated from this site what about tractor trailers specifically specifically as a traffic engineer I'm looking to make sure that the routes that I would route them on are legal routes uh per the statutes now when when you tell testified on Direct you were asked about why prohibiting why prohibit left turns and you said and I have this in quotation marks you were sensitive to the hills what what did you mean by that again the topography and the fact that is not the most direct route I would want to Route the vehicles to the place where they could get to their locations as fast as possible through the on the roads that are most appropriate for the tractor trailers now if if trucks are prohibited if tractor trailers are prohibited from making a left turn how will they get to Interstate 287 North if they're going north they would make a right out of the site and make a left on Martinville Road Mount Ary road all the way up to 287 at The Interchange and make a right to go towards 287 North when they reach the mount Ary Road 287 interchange and that would take them along um Mount Ary Martinsville Road correct correct are you aware that there are approximately 80 residents um on that area of Mount Ary Martinsville road that either face or a but mount Martinville road I don't know the exact number that AB but the county road pardon I don't know the exact number but I'm aware there are residents that abut the county road if if if I told you it was 80 uh would you dispute that I assume it's close to 80 all right are there other ways to get to 287 yes what are the other ways you could make a ride out of the site onto Allen Road a right onto Martinsville Road make a right onto the uh 78 interchange ramp and take that to the take that West uh to The Interchange of 287 and 78 you could also make a left out of the site again assuming you're a passenger car go through the hills schay mountain and get on uh in Bedminster at 287 now as a traffic engineer you have no concern about tractor trailers going through Martinsville Mount Ary road to 287 is that it's a legal route for tractor trailers illegal I asked you whether you have a concern the road has been designed to support tractor trailer traffic that's my concern from a traffic engineering point of view and again you have no concern about trucks or traffic uh trailer traffics going past uh Fellowship Village is that correct correct all right are you aware of a school on Allen Road a public school or a private school school where children go to school um is there access believe there is a private school it's a public school public school okay a public school Mr Mr I have I have an objection to all of this as you know because it's been asked and answered on Direct his analysis has been performed he took account of everything that was on a county road that is allows truck traffic in a in a use that's permitted and I'm just beyond my comprehension as to why this board is allowing this man to continue to ask direct questions direct questions that questions that were asked on direct and through testimony he he may not have been paying attention but but the bottom line is all of this was talked about all of it may I go on actually it was directed to me Mr blind and I'll give the advice to the chair okay M Mr chairman he can go on go on Mr yeah thank you my question is um are you aware that is a public school on Allen Road I'm I'm not aware of where the public school is on Allen Road and therefore you're not aware that that public school uses school buses to transort students again we've done traffic counts in which buses were counted for if they were going to that school they would have been counted for in our study that's not my question my question is are you aware that school buses uh let me rephrase my question are you aware that school buses enter the Allen Road School schol during the morning Prime Time and leave in the afternoon making stops on Allen Road yes we performed counts that counted school buses specifically in the morning because that uh coincided with our traffic counts are you concerned about the danger of tractor trailers uh traveling at those times when school buses are stopping and either picking up or letting off of students uh I imagine when buses are dropping off or picking up students they're using their lights and per regul the ordinance and requirements of tractor of any vehicle they would have to stop for a bus that's stopping or picking up children now there are other ways U to get to 287 uh leaving 150 Allen Road they can get on the road it's a interior road that leads to 140 Alan Mr Blair I think we're going to assume that there's going to be a question at the end of this so please proce with the chair's perion I can't ask a question if you keep on interrupting Mr Mr bin Mr BL the objection was overruled maybe you want to ask a question there are other ways that um trucks can leave 150 Allen Road they can go on the interior Road road that leads to 140 isn't that correct and then make a left turn to get to Allen Road again I think there was discussion about possibly Pro prohibiting tractor trailers from utilizing that cross Access Road uh but obviously Passenger cars would be able to utilize that cross access driveway well how would you prohibit tractor trailers from using that road through signage and potentially a geometric restriction and what about keep going further on that interior road to uh the area of um 160 110 uh Isen Road and doing the same thing making a left turn and getting on to Allen Road again if a tractor trailer can't get to the can't cross the access road to get to 140 they won't be able to get to uh that other address now what about trucks tractor trailer um coming either north or south on 287 uh they can get off at Route 202 206 exit can they not then get on Allen Road and make a right turn onto 150 Allen Road they could but I think we showed in exhibits at the previous hearing that that would not be the fastest route to the site from that direction I'm not talking about the fastest route Mr BL he answered the question he he answered the question well they would do it if the truck driver decided that they would like to go that way and not be concerned about the fast this route isn't that correct m m Mr Lair Mr BL he he did answer the question he he you asked if they could do it and he said yes but it wouldn't be the fastest the yes was an answer please proceed Mr bear with me now you you testified about the effect of traffic on the passing of vehicles and the traveling of vehicles did you any in any of your reports did you comment about uh the effect of truxs having an effect on the residents rather than the traveling the residents as they are drivers were analyzed within my report the residents as people living in their houses is not part of the traffic study yeah residents who live adjacent to the streets where the tractor trailers will be traveling no Mr Berlin you got about another 10 or 15 minutes and then we're going to have to shut you down well pleas so that the public can ask questions as well I I have at least one hour more to go condens it Mr M Mr Blair Mr Belin as we've told everybody before uh under the municipal land use law and and and applicable procedures uh everyone's given a reasonable period of time in some instances and some with some boards that's matters of minutes this board has been in my opinion very generous to all Council as well as members of the public and given much more than that uh I believe your predecessor objectors Council took about an hour as we timed it uh and I believe you're going to be getting uh more than that uh by going to 10 o00 uh but uh so uh it has to be a reasonable period of time uh you may argue that nothing's reasonable as long as you you know if if if it's less than what you would prefer but that may not be accurate uh please make the most of the 17 minutes remaining before we go to the public with the chair's permission my per I'm just trying to see if I can are you aware that at a prior hearing the engineer Mr Moselle testified that trucks are going to make a right turn to leave the site I'm quoting now we are going to restrict the leftand turn movement and they are going to make a right turn uh to go through the traffic light at Martinsville Road it is anticipated that no left turn out of the sight would be limited to trucks only only to tractor trailers is that correct that's correct and you agree with that recommendation yes now let's talk about parking in the 17 minutes that I have left um what what is the footprint of a building what's the square footage of the buildings yeah so that no I don't mean the in general terms when you use the word footprint what does that mean that means the building itself the the what's within the four walls of the building right and the present building's footprint is about 58,000 Square uh 58,000 ft correct yes that's the footprint again it's multiple stories and that's different than floor space correct and the footprint of the proposed building is 258,000 feet roughly correct roughly yes since it's one story the footprint is the same as the floor space approximately yes so the footprint of the proposed building is about four and a half times as large as the uh footprint of the original building yes can we pull up on the screen exhibit A1 could you tell me what that is I'll show you at the compendium here okay I will pull that up that's it okay this is exhibit I thought exhibit A1 was a compendium yeah this is the first sheet exhibit A1 this is the first sheet of exhibit A1 page one page one thank you yeah okay now to the left of the building and to the right of the building what are those areas parking lots and you testified and um I believe it's correct that there were 700 parking spaces I'm going to say approximately 700 at Inc when we run to the building yes okay now would you show and I don't know how to describe this this is the I think this is the third sheet in the set this look like what you got is that it Mr blin that's it yeah okay page three what what happened to the 700 parking spaces it's either been areas have been made green some the building has gotten larger and there's been other Drive aisles and parking spaces included so you you can build a building on that lot uh with as many as 700 parking spaces is that correct that's what existed previously yes now the lot itself is it exceptionally narrow in any way I don't know if that's a traffic engineer question all right so you have no knowledge whether the lot's narrow or shallow or the shapes unusual or the Topography is in any way exceptional Mr Mr Warner Mr chairman this was testimony from our engineer I don't understand why why this is being allowed to be T I understand the Mr seckler the the do you have any is it within your expertise to answer the question as Mr michelo answered the question as a civil engineer I I don't think that's a traffic engineer question that's something that's been in my expertise please proceed to your next question Mr B is there now in your report you have discussed parking spaces correct that is true okay is there any way in your opinion that a light manufacturing facility could be built on those 28 Acres that complies with the codee requirement for parking spaces is that a traffic question yes he will he no it's a parking question and he in his report commented on the parking I need to understand Mr chairman is it a parking question is it a traffic question is it an engineering question is it a planning question it's a traffic question because parking spaces end up being traffic m m Mr Berlin are you ask you're asking him as a traffic engineer whether someone could build the light manufacturing building on 28 acres is that what you're asking well he has rendered an opinion as no no I'm asking you what you're asking him is what I just said what you're asking in light of the fact are with no with no other parameters can can you build a light manufacturing building on 28 acres is your question of this wit is correct is that is that correct yes okay can you answer the question I assume you can but I don't know other restrictions as it relates to zoning and environmental restrictions on the site but technically if you had a blank slate I'm sure you could please proceed Mr now at the end of the last meeting I asked you to um have available the um it U uh fifth generation uh parking manual correct yes all right than let's refer to it now it has an introduction and then it states the purpose correct correct and the purpose is let me read it and you'll correct me if I'm wrong well can you give me a second so I could pull it out if that helps okay you could go got it yep the purpose of the parking generation manual is to present data and information that will enable an analyst to forecast parking Demand by the time of day of the week and at a specified land use correct correct and then it continues a couple of sentence after that data contained in parking generation manual are presented for informational purposes the manual describes the composition of the database presents parking demand information in data plots and tables and explains the various statistics that are presented to help the analyst the manual does not provide parking Supply standards or recommendations of the prepared application of the data isn't that correct a couple asking you if that's what it says in the menual that's what it says in the manual yes all right and then it it has a section that says cautions correct yes and what it says is the quality of parking demand data varies significantly by land use code parking generation manual should be consider considered only the beginning point of information to be used in estimating parking demand local conditions and area type can influence parking demand the wide array of data in the manual Blends many site conditions and may not best reflect a particular local condition therefore a survey of a site and a a comp comparable local condition should always be considered as one potential means to estimate parking correct that's again you're asking if that's what it says if you read it accurately right yes you read it accurately while parking generation manual is not the final word on parking demand or an author of standard the report contains the best available data on the subject of Park ing demand correct the end of the sentence says related to land use but yes yes now are you aware not hypothetically but actually how many employees are going to be employed by the proposed building no are you aware of the type of light manufacturing by that I mean is the light manufacturing going to be done by robots which sometimes it is uh is it going to be done by people putting things together no I don't know all right do you know how much office space is going to be required by the proposed tenants well we have provided an office space number for each building uh but I do not know if they'll be usz all of that but that's how much how many square feet is that office space in totality it's 59,230 Square ft is there a provision in the proposal for uh visitors who come to the facility I imagine they would park in how what you imagine they would park in the in parking stalls near the building they would park in parking stalls near the building in available spaces well you are familiar with Office Buildings correct Office Buildings yes excuse me with manufacturing buildings yes and you're are you not AA uh uh do you not know that many of them have spaces where they say visitors only they typically have a few spaces near the door depending on the type of amount of visitors they would expect that would say visitors only the the information that the it U manual provides um how many how many um no strike that do you know whether any of those uh reports include uh manufacturing facilities were they abided by the parking code I don't know that that's not provided now then you're you're referring to uh you report referred to manufacturing 140 specifically correct luse code 140 yes right and that sets forth a range of parking demand correct can you repeat the question the manufacturing 140 that you are referring to sets forth a range of parking demand ranging from 0.17 to 13.75 there is a range of data yes right and that is in 20 studies correct there are 20 studies yes now each study is one manufacturing unit or more than one each study is a site that was was analyzed each study is a site that was analyzed okay Mr Berlin you have about four minutes well I may need five or six I hope you for four all right part of my time was used up by objections so I objected that also with Smith please the the record will speak for itself please please proceed Mr will me so the what what the it parking generation manual does it sets forth the average parking demand correct it sets forth an average of the Peak parking demands ping Demand right and it also provides the definition of manufacturing provides for a office correct it provides for a office manufacturing facility typically has an office and off an office each facility may have an office now 150 Allen Road it's their bus service there not convenient bus service no is there subway service certainly not is there mass transportation no so somebody an employee who goes through that premises has to either drive or drive with somebody or walk correct I have worked on Manu ufacturing sites in which there are shuttle vehicles from a certain location or neighborhood I don't know if that's proposed here you don't know that there's any provision in the proposal for shuttle service correct Mr I think you just answered your question before you finished but that's your ruling I'll AB Mr B I didn't rule anything I I said he he he just answered your question oh I'm sorry why don't you ask your next question you got a minute final question or a couple maybe go ahead maybe two let's go I don't have a final question I can I ask I have plenty more to u to cross but I will abide by your ring right all right so we're about to open the meeting to the public you got a little break when the plug popped [Laughter] out good okay um so we're going to open the meeting up to the public um anyone whoair oh sure go ahead I think we're going to take a two two minut recess before the public there we with we're going to get back to public questioning as soon as everybody please take is seated Mr SEC you'll be you're still up okay we're reconvening the meeting right now do you want me here or here um there or here you should you should sit down and I believe there's a signup sheet there that's where is it it's over there now take it away you can put it up on the okay Cindy sign name and address and then and if you want you can ask the question first and then sign your name and address as long as you don't forget so it keeps everything moving okay um i' just like to say one thing to the public if we can please keep everything civil during testimony and during breaks um be respectful of the attorneys that are here the professionals that are here they're all doing a difficult job uh and then and they're just doing their job so I would just remind you of that and we understand of course the these are very important and uh matters and there's an emotional aspect to it we're all human uh myself I'm way too human sometimes and I apologize for that but uh to my family my friends and everyone but uh uh but please let's all try to remain civil uh keep our emotions in check as best we can and uh and and and recognize the importance of the matter and the fact that uh the process process is important it's quasi judicial uh and if we give it respect and each other respect it'll work out a lot better for everyone so thank you okay thank you Mr Warner um so this will be the time to ask questions of the traffic engineer and questions only um comments will be made at at another meeting later on um and if you were here on January 3D um we did start public comment excuse me questions public questions um there were four members of the public Who U got up and asked questions so you cannot ask questions again um because you've already asked your questions uh and also if you're represented by councel um you cannot come up either right anyone who's represented by Mr Belin Mr Simon or Miss uh or Miss Smith uh the rules require that the cross-examination as I've said before I apologize for repeating can only be through them anyone who is unrepresented uh can uh can ask further questions okay and um when you come up there is a signup sheet um we need your name and your information it's on the podium up here we ask you please speak directly into the microphone because it's hard to hear and uh give your name and address when you come up to ask your questions so we can start sir thank you Mr chairman Bernie pay it's spelled p NE 95 Autumn Ridge Bedminster in the Hills development um my questions are going to pertain to traffic movements in two particular locations and hopefully um you can uh Enlighten on on one of the questions which was asked at a previous meeting but I'm not sure um that the question was necessarily answered in completeness I'm referencing a movement by a vehicle eastbound on Allen Road as it's approaching the site the site being on the right hand side there's a curvature in the road there's a downgrade to the road and was any analysis ever done on the scenario where as the car is the vehicle is approaching there is simultaneously the tractor trailer is making a leftand turn into the site or possibly a tractor trailer is exiting the site making a rightand turn as pertains to sight distance reaction time and braking distance so we have provided a sight distance profile of what a vehicle would see when they're leaving the site looking left or looking right so in terms of if a vehicle is truck tractor trailer or car making a right turn or left turn out they do have sufficient sight distance to see to their left you know there is obviously change of changing curvature but they can see uh properly down that location if that's your concern I'm I'm more concerned about the vehicle traveling eastbound okay and as they're making the turn and they're approaching the site on the right simultaneously a tractor trailer is attempting to maneuver into the site and I think there is testimony that because of the size of the of the tractor trailer and the number of car lengths it takes up the ability of it to accelerate to make the turn to make the radius that the vehicle approaching okay um more than likely would would have to possibly break and how much sight distance or reaction time they would have to make to be able to make that maneuver so yes there is sufficient sight distance for the vehicle coming I'm going to say eastbound to stop if a vehicle is turning across or into their path so yes there is sufficient sight distance okay and what about um reaction time and braking distance yeah so the site distance calculation and I saying this from a traffic engineer standpoint counts for two second reaction time and then the braking distance when I say that has appropriate sight distance I'm including both the two second reaction time plus the braking you know the time it takes to actually stop the vehicle okay so then there's no modifications no signage no no type of warning that might um be there trucks entering at this site to alert drivers as they're approaching the site from that direction so there's none proposed doesn't mean that that is not something that can be proposed or suggested to the county something like active driveway trucks entering roadway something like that certainly can be added there is again sufficient site distance that it's not needed but again additional warning signs is is always at least from my standpoint always could be always be an added feature and again we definitely could talk to the County engineer about adding that okay the the other uh traffic movement pertain to the intersection at Martinsville Road and Allen Road as it pertains to Turning radiuses for the trucks either making a left or right off of Allen Road onto Martinsville or U conversely coming off of Martinsville Road taking a left or right onto Allen Road was any analysis done on the ability of that roadway to be able to support multiple tractor trailer movements um at different times of the day um and being able to make that without affecting traffic that's in the Turning lanes for instance yeah we reviewed the truck turning templates at that location uh utilizing obviously aerial photography uh in that area Rand turning templates and found that the vehicles can make the turns without impacting or acquiring let's say vehicles to back up behind the stop you know you know some they're at the stop bar and they need to back up they can make those turns without impacting cars that are stopped at the various Stoppers and again we did look at all the right turns for trucks uh which would be right turn southbound and right turn Eastbound and then the left turns which would be left turn Northbound and left turn eastbound um what would be the frequency let's say of say a tractor trailer driver did not make enough of the um he took the turn too narrow took wide let's say there's a vehicle that went a couple of feet beyond the stop line um and and would that impact the ability of of a successful maneuver there so the the software that we use it doesn't draw I'd say the most the perfect truck driver move there's there's some margin of error built into it but obviously uh you know there are truck drivers that may you know even draw Drive outside that or drive outside that margin of error or as you said if someone pulled up too far obviously that is a possibility but I think when you're looking at the frequency of trucks again in the range of you know if we have four trucks leaving the site I think we assume that three of them would be let's say making the right from Allen Road to to uh get towards 78 uh in an hour so you're talking about a truck making that turn every 20 minutes or so you know if there is that one time that the truck or the car that's in the area is not in the right spot I don't think it's going to be a a a traffic nightmare that would occur but I do understand that obviously these are well in in anticipation of of that ultimately happening um I mean obviously can't be excluded from consideration is there any modifications to that intersection that would um reduce or attempt to eliminate the inevitable which is going to be the the tractor trailer driver taking it too narrow too wide a car inching up too far past the stopline is there any modification that could be done to that intersection uh again that well I don't think it's it's a requirement to be done something we could talk to the County Traffic engineer is again sometimes moving those stop bars back a little bit does provide for a little bit more generous room again assuming that someone stops in relative proximity to the Stop Bar is an important thing but again if you move it back even if they go two feet over then maybe they're in the the right you know the position where it is today I will only asked the question because I was a witness to seeing that happen at that intersection so that's the only reason I asked that question but thank you very much nothing further Mr CH sign okay very good thank you Mr chair whilst I wait to ask my question I I've been requested that I know you said that previous meeting on the 3rd of January people who had asked questions can't ask questions there's been significant evidence heard tonight and the memo of the 5th of February which has actually raised far more questions and so I would just request that you don't preclude other people from asking questions the my my advice to to the chair those four perhaps don't go first but ultimately should be given an opportunity to ask questions with respect to the uh the report that was submitted after the last meeting uh not withstanding the fact that the additional information on that report came out by way of questioning of others the attorneys were questioning but it is new information so uh if any of those four individuals have questions related to the Capacity Analysis my advice to the chair is that they be allowed to ask those questions when we can get to them thank you yes fa Mr War thank you for bringing that up thank you Paul Edwards five Richmond Drive Basking Rich uh I have two questions if I can so uh third of January used a lot of data to justify your support for the application so using similar kind of data can you give us an idea you you talked about there being a 60% increase from current truck traffic to projected truck traffic based on that 60% increase what increased road traffic accidents and other Road offenses could we expect to see in that Allen Road area particularly and I if I can just add particularly as you you weren't aware of this the largest Elementary School in the town is on one of the traffic routes that runs and that we could anticipate traffic running on what would the data show in terms of increas in accidents and offenses again the study of accident prediction uh is a complicated topic and it is not one in which there's a linear relationship between traffic volume an accident um likelihood there's obviously many roads that are designed that carry high amounts of vehicles that have very low accident rates and you sometimes see higher accent rates on very rural roads that have you know let's say substandard design uh and some conditions that may lead to accidents that are unrelated to traffic volume so I don't think that there is a at least in my opinion and my expertise a direct correlation necessarily between you add x amount of cars you add x amount of accidents to a roadway like this so I can't give you can I reframe the question then based based on the roads that are in the vicinity including Allen Road on which Mount Prospect Elementary School is based therefore having significant road traffic as parents are taking children to and from school as well as there also being the Hills uh Community Center swimming pool on that kind of Highly residential route what would you expect to see so again it's not a it's not a to to qu it's not a rural road right um so again that school and again I I took the time in the break because I was kicking myself that I thought I missed a school that was within what I'm going to say our study area where we did our counts and which was basically from Somerville road to Martinsville Road and I looked and there was no school there so I Now understand the school you're referring to is further to the West outside of the there's also Al school yes but along Allen Road you know outside of the study area the tractor trailer volume going through that area or even the vehicular volume through that area is not going to see that 60% number because we are directing the tractor trailers to the east out of the site not to the West which is where that look where that school is located obviously passenger vehicles it depends on where people are coming from if they if they live you know areas to the west and they're working here they may you know travel that area but we are not seeing 60% increase in traffic around that school based on this development so the number that we were referring to earlier or on January 3rd or 2nd whatever it was is not specific to the area of that school um that said I don't know any specifics again typically in evaluating accident probability what you look for is roadway conditions that do not meet standards again poor sight distance I think the last person brought up that um under you know roadways that are too narrow poor uh bad curvature those are areas that you know you may start seeing you know a higher propensity for accidents but again uh I don't know of any areas along this stretch in which they is a physical condition that has been leading to accidents and being a cause for accidents over the years that could be exacerbated by this but again that 60% number is not related to the area near that school just for your own information there's been two fatalities on Allen Road I'm sorry can you speak up just for inform he was talking about him not being aware of it I just wanted to point out there have been two pedestrian fatalities Road In fairness the public comments later as you know the questions are now my apologies my second question is again based on the two premises that are being proposed what do you anticipate to be the construction traffic that will be required to to build those and also any kind of construction and disruption to re Rec kind of purposing the road redesign of the road so one of the benefits um to construction traffic uh is that typically there is a preconstruction meeting held with usually Emergency Services police fire um that type of activity in which specific construction routes are selected and defined and therefore if there are specific routes that construction vehicles should only be utilizing that could be um decided and implemented at a pre-construction meeting I do do not have a number in terms of the you know number of dump trucks or you know cranes or anything that would be on the site I'm unaware of um what that number would be for this for this site would would that be part of the Planning Commission uh typically construction activities again I defer to council is is more of a building department issue but again there's a developers agreement that's entered into with the township that talks about posting bonds and and things like that and there a PR construction meeting that takes place and as Mr seckler said they talk about the route that would the best route for construction thank you and Ju Just to be clear uh those are in essence stipulations to conditions which are regular conditions in the event there is an approval for a project like this correct Mr lir that's correct question and and I yeah I think Mr chairman do we have another question and while she's approaching the the uh I neglect we neglected to have a roll call after we the short break so let the record reflect that all five board members returned immediately after the break and have been uh on the day since since the break if not before thank you thank you hi everybody I'm Deborah Penner Smith I look you could lower the mic they're directional mics I got it right this better I'm Deborah Penner Smith I live at 54 Dickens Road uh which is in amoris Muse in the Hills [Music] um I know I'm not supposed to make any comments I'll try to end everything with a question okay well and it'll be directed to gonna work on I worked on that okay so Mr seckler uh and I know there's been some discussion about this already this evening but would you agree that the hills is a residential neighborhood where thousands of families live I don't know the exact number but that seems like a reasonable statement yes I don't know the exact number either but I'm going to guess it's thousands oky do so I have eight brief questions then based on your testimony at the 1324 zoning board meeting especially as they relate to some answers you provided to Mr Cambria Mr camria if I've misunderstood something would you please interrupt me and say what are you talking about that would be helpful maybe we'll keep the questions to Mr Seer In fairness to Mr Camry and the board oh okay well uh you calculated that currently there are 150 to 200 truck trips per day on Allen Road is that correct I believe that was related to at along Martinsville Road and mount Ary Road not Allen Road Okay so the the truck traffic the 150 to 200 truck trips per day are not counting any truck trips that go up Allen Road no no the there if a truck was on Mount ARA or Martinsville Road and turned onto Allen Road uhhuh it would be part of that number but the number I was referring to was specifically on the North South Road um not Allen Road which is east west in this area okay so do you have a calculation cuz I thought you said there were 150 to 200 truck trips per day that went up and down Allen Road I could give you an estimate did I mess I well okay yeah my my guess is the number is is probably about what was the number that you said you I thought you said 150 to 200 truck trips per day yeah it'll be more in the 100 range in this area again there and by truck trips that's not tractor trailer specifically that could be tractor trailers that could be box trucks but it could include tractor trailers can include that yes it's a 100 truck trips per day yes not 100 not 150 to 200 correct okay so that current that means that currently a truck drives up or down down Allen Road then about a 100 times a day somebody makes a truck there's a truck driving by and again I'm specific we studied the area in the proximity of the site I can't speak to alen Road way west of here you know beyond the hills yes correct you don't know you don't know about the truck traffic in the Hills correct our study area ended at Somerville Road okay um you stated that if the zoning board approves your plan the truck traffic up and down Allen Road which I guess is not Allen Road because you didn't talk about Allen Road would increase by 60% per day so if there are a 100 truck trips per day then 60% is going to mean 160 truck trips per day it'll be if there's in the proximity of our site it would go to 89 truck trips per day so that would be the percentage wait a minute you said an increase of 60% I was again referring to an area of Martinsville Road not Allen Road okay when I gave that percentage well okay so now you're saying that with a hundred truck trips on Allen Road per day the it's not going to your the proposed plan the new Light Industry place that you want to build or somebody wants to build is not going to increase the truck traffic on Allen Road by 60% it'll be by 89% so then it's going to be almost 200 truck trips per day between the site and Martinsville Road not the site and areas west okay so I guess the questions I'm I'm asking then you don't have any idea about the truck traffic on Allen Road between Allen Road and Martinsville road we will likely be adding around 89 trips a day let's be clear it's not trucks it's trips truck trips truck trips so you know the the intersection and the four-way stop sign right the four-way stop somville Road yes Somerville and and Allen Road correct so if you're going on that strip of Allen Road up up and down through the hills that's the one that you think will have that currently has 100 truck trips per day and is going to now have probably almost double that no that area is to the west of this site trucks cannot make a left turn out of our site so our exiting traffic is not going to that intersection I was referring to between our site and Martinsville Road okay you said trucks can't make a left tractor trailer trucks saying now can't make a left but the other trucks you included when you were talking about trucks UPS FedEx Etc so you don't know how many of those trucks are going to make a left and head on up Allen Road and go through the hills some of those trucks can make if that's where their destination is yes okay so I am certainly concerned about an 89% increase in truck trips um I'm confused about the possibility of 18 wheelers because I know that you say that you've testified that they're not going to be making a left and it would be inexpedient for them to do so because it's faster to get to the highways going other directions however when there is an accident on 78 or 287 what happens then again the we have a physical impediment for them to make a left turn out of the site so they'll have to sit in traffic on 287 or 78 but it doesn't preclude the the the 18 wheelers or any other trucks from coming up Allen Road from 287 you talk about into the site coming in correct coming up Allen Road from 287 coming up Allen Road then going down Allen Road coming to the four-way stop and then making a right into 150 correct there's nothing that precludes that other than again other than what we see as the most likely routes obviously if there's an accident or something like that that may not be you know the fastest when there's an accident there's a lot of traffic okay great uh I think that's it thank you um can I just take a quick poll how many people have questions question this evening all right the board is okay with staying a little while longer here as many as we can we should pick a a time and a motion second and all in favor to to U go beyond the our bylaw provided 10:30 period I'll make the motion to extend to 11: p.m PM okay second all in favor Iain volunteer board is St we're staying to L I'll make it quick I'm madavi pupala uh reside in 17 Honeyman Road um Basking Ridge in the [Music] Hills m a d h a v i last name is palala p u p p a l a thank you so um all these trucks will be diesel engine trucks um diesel exhaust contains nitrogen oxide and in warm weather hot sunlight bakes nitrogen oxide together and uh forms a harmful you want to ask SM are all these trucks going to be diesel trucks yes okay are these all diesel trucks I I imagine the tractor trailers are but it's possible that some of the smaller Vehicles maybe other you know imagine they electric large wheelbase Vans and things like that I am a traffic I don't know what the future holds for trucks the trucking industry now you want to ask a question about what diesel truck what if these are all the diesel trucks and they all um uh increase the ground level ozone aggressively which causes a um severe lung damage and versus asthma and causes cancer what are the measures that are being taken um especially being uh there is a so this is a um paper written by the Washington uh University and question is it causes a lot of lung damage to the residents around the area and people cannot exer do exercise or anything har dham Park you have a report that's come to a conclusion about the effects of diesel correct yes so my question is what what are the measures that are being taken by this uh organization what what what what's the report Washington University this is the Department of ecology state of Washington um report I will I can forward this to you but what are the measures taken by the organization so so that they can rely on what people can rely on your question yeah I'm ask the what are the measures taken uh to reduce the diesel pollution uh for our in that area if you could provide the board with a date auth at some point Thank you sure I'm sure the applicant is going to require um it to be in compliance with all anti idling um procedures again I'm sure that there'll be appropriate signage and the ability for vehicles or drivers to be fined if they do not follow the idling policies on property um um I don't know what happens when they leave the site but that applicant's responsibility is their property itself okay thank you information that's you just sign that please Gan Swami G H a n last name is s w a mi I 76 dochester Drive Basking Ridge so um my first I have like three questions my first question is um when you go um from I mean when you go right from a site and then reach modv Road and then take a right to go to 78 um yeah we all talked about the Turning you know radius and everything but was there any study done on what is the delayed causes for the signal from Starbucks I mean there's a signal right there the Riverwalk um and then how much of backup could it create on a you know on a peak hours was there any study on there so the intersections that we studied which again were increased based on your boards Traffic Engineers comments we did a study your board traffic and asked for other intersections to be looked at um were the intersections that would most likely be a affected by this by this development um and it's because there is a high amount of traffic in conflicting movements meaning some going northbound some going uh East or westbound that's why we looked at the the ramps at uh 78 again east west traffic and North South traffic at the Starbucks well there again there's the traffic light there there's not as much green time that needs to be shared with the side street because it doesn't have the same volumes as Allen Road or the or the um or the ramps coming off at 78 but again the intersections we looked at we did a study your board engineer had comments you need need to study more and then we went back and studied additional intersections was there um was there also any um traffic movement study done from 78 up to 287 in the modville road we m road I mean go we went as far as Allen Road um uh because that was those are the intersections that were most impacted uh by the new trips of this development again your Bo's traffic engineer added intersections they didn't add any of the intersections of Mount AR Road but no not about the intersection but is there a count of number of trucks that pass by from 78 to 287 currently oh oh currently yeah I think I provided some testimony at the last hearing on that um because I second question yeah I remember the 89 part of it but yeah so uh the other one is uh since you don't know if all of the trucks are going to be trailer tractor trailers it could be box trucks or single unit trucks like what do you call does it stop them from making a right turn using your other entrance into your facility you know we I mean you try to avoid they making a left turn which which are like you know the bigger tractor trailers can the Box trcks take a right turn when they come down the Allen Road towards I mean when they come from 2 287 and they're coming towards your your facility using Allen Road if they're using Allen Road your question is can they turn into from the hills if they if they take the hills spot and then come down they can make that right turn physically there's nothing that prevents them from making it right because and our reasoning was if they come that direction and they couldn't physically make that move they're going to have to U-turn somewhere and I don't want them to u-turn on some local Street private development so I want them to be able to make the right turn so if someone finds that thrat to be the most convenient route they can still take the drout I mean every time they come to a287 why go through this hassle of all the lights they could just take go up the Allen Road and come down the island road from the hills we showed based on the travel time measures that Google uses looking at peak hours that the fastest route is not going through the hills and it's basically as you say going through the lights um and also during the peak hours you said like that is about six trucks um I mean 6:00 in the morning and 6:00 in the evening that is going to come but that is an approximation that could be a little bit you know a few trucks more a few trucks less I mean I understand that part of it but is there anything like you know uh any mechanism in place that would uh restrict the flow of the trucks outside of your facility like what if like three trucks are buddies and they're going through the same route they all leave the thing at the same time then now you're creating a you know a a traffic backup in every light they're going to turn so is there anything that stops them I mean is there any traffic mechanism you have in place that they are staggered I mean okay you don't go at the same time you go like 20 minutes apart is there anything like that uh there's no physical uh prevention again that doesn't mean that the operators may not you know they may be loading one vehicle at a time so that could create that natural um separation okay uh do you have that uh number that we were just talking about I'm seeing somewhere my notes 157 but again and I I it's written in my notes and I don't have it U the raw data front of me um okay that's all I have for this point thank you I'm Jenny CA and I live in Fellowship Village has there been any consideration of the noise that these large Vehicles make excuse me um can I ask a question um I think inter is on the council that Mr Berlin represents are you also on the council yes so I think that there's a problem the the council is is represented by Council isn't the hills people aren't they represented also I I believe C so I don't know if they're from the hills or not but I know there are certain individuals where represented by Mr Simon uh uh Miss Smith represents Fellowship Village as I understanded and Mr Belin uh represents a council that is a subcategory if you will of fellow well I still think I should be able to ask this question uh no I understand unfortunately the law requires us to abide by it all right not unfortunately it's a good thing well consider the noise yeah yes thank you be happy to ask a question on your well that that that's okay yeah that's okay excuse me Mr Mr Berlin Mr Berlin you've confirmed she's represented by you correct you're okay thank you Mr blind question is right Mr blind Mr blind thank you they they she made her her comment consider the noise I think we've got it may I ask the question on behalf of that it's up to the chair but I think you had crossed we're trying to have other members of the public were unrepresented Mr Berlin we're trying to have members of the public have the opportunity to ask questions those who are not represented by Council In fairness to the public so so I so maybe we can continue to do that with your permission Mr Belin or without it thank you thank you anyone else thank you Busters in congress not here thank you alen m shapy I reside at 19 Dickinson Road Basking Ridge New Jersey I'm sorry your name and address Allan m shapy s a p 19 Dickinson Road Basking Ridge New Jersey thank you Mr chairman uh sorry I want to ask you some questions about noise so you're going to have everyone please 18 wheel tractor trailers potentially going back and forth along Allen Road correct correct all right have you driven Allen Road yourself yes have you driven from one end to the other uh I've gotten as far as yes I have most recently today I went as far as the entrance to the hills but I have driven the whole stretch in the past all right and you would agree it's a residential area area as you get further to the west through the hills I would say yes there's residence on both and it's it's essentially a one lane a two two lane roads separated by a w line with turn Lanes correct and you would describe it as a hilly road there is topography change on the road yes all right elevation changes yes curves yes um do you know how high the elevation changes are uh I haven't studied the elev the numeric difference in elevation in the Hills all right so when 18 wheelers are going to navigate Allen Road they're going to be going around curves they're going to be going up elevations and then elevations correct which is exactly why we are designing our driveway to have vehicles of that wheelbase make a right turnout instead of a left turn through that path but you can't control how Vehicles access your site you mean enter the site yes correct what we showed in the exhibits at the previous hearing is that the fastest route from all the interstates is not through the hills for the trucks but that doesn't prohibit trucks from going down that road correct all right so as trucks proceed up and down that road up and around those Hills they're going to be changing gears on multiple occasions correct uh likely yes and when trucks change gears they make noise yes I'm sure and and the noise could be loud correct I don't have a technical measurement of can be loud so I I can't answer that question question and as a resident you would be concerned about this new loud noise that's entered your environment that wasn't there before correct there are state laws controlling noise you could you can ask he made he's making an objection we have to address it sorry yeah you can with the chair's permission I think you could ask a question although when you're asking he he's testified fairness as a traffic expert asking him would you be bothered by noise you live there that might be beyond the scope of the expertise can noise be measured in decibels yes are you a noise expert Mr Mr Lair he he can answer the questions himself and he can explain what his expertise is and is in himself did you attempt to measure the amount of decibels the amount of noise that those trucks will put off in that neighborhood going down up and down those Hills and changing gears constantly did you measure that that's not my expertise as a traffic engineer so the answer is no you didn't measure it correct did anybody on your team measure it I do not know that have you seen any measurements like that I personally have not did you attempt to seek out any measurements like that no did you attempt to conduct any tests of measurements like that that's not within my purview all right I want to talk about the school for a minute um um that's right at the right basically right at the top of of that road did you know that was there before today when the question was asked I thought he was referring to any Mr Berlin was referring to schools within our study area which was from Somerville road to uh Martinville Road along Allen Road so that is why when I said I did not know of any school within that area which there is not school I did not realize he was referring to an area outside of what we studied I when I drove by the on the road in the past yes I did notice there was a school and you know there's a development across from that school called amher Muse yes and do you know there's approximately 126 houses on Amhurst Muse I don't know the number all right did you ever study how many school children cross Allen Road in the peak hours in the morning and in the peak hours in the afternoon going from Amherst Muse to get to that school we did not do counts at that location is there a reason you didn't do those counts because one it's outside of our study area meaning that the amount of traffic that we're sending there is low in terms of from a traffic engineering point of view to when we provided our traffic study to the board's engineer board's traffic engineer he indicated additional intersections he wanted to study that was not one of the additional intersections but you could have studied that on your own yes I could have but it was again outside of the amount of the amount of traffic we'd be adding to that intersection is not or that area would not reach a threshold for which in the traffic engineering industry would study that intersection so as you see here now you have no idea how many children cross that road in the morning and afternoons to get to school or how the truck traffic would affect their ability to do that is that correct that is correct I have no further questions you named them can I have one question I'd like to ask Mr Mr chairman redirect by Mr Mr Mr sec let me repeat the question is Allen Road a County Road yes and are tractor trailers allowed on Allen Ro yes I have Mr Mr if I may Mr chairman Mr Lair the applicant is required to abide by njac 7 colon 29 uh the state requirements with respect to decibel levels and noise particularly 50 DBA in the evenings hours and excuse me uh 50 DVA limit in the evening hours and 65 DVA limit during the daytime correct and the ordinance of our municipality which are consistent with those and have been approved by d uh the applicant in the event or anybody for that matter uh has to abide by those regulations correct correct okay thank you thank you sir hello my name is rajes RA last name r a o first name r a jsh 48 Liberty Ridge Road Basking Ridge have you studied the number of accidents that have happened on Allen Road in the last 10 years and the number of deaths that have happened on Allen Road I have no no according to the state law is a 65 footer allowed to drive on a road without a shoulder I don't know of any law that would prohibit a tractor trailer on that road or on Allen Road if that's what your question is within 1.5 miles of the facility that is proposed the traffic study does not involve the intersection of the uh Walgreens Road and Allen Road which is just 1.2 miles from there on Isen road is that a question or yeah the traffic study just the traffic study is only on Somerville Road and Allen Road it does not go beyond that correct the amount of traffic that would continue beyond Somerville Road in the westbound Direction is about 20 vehicles in the busiest hour so why is that why why is it so low no why is why is the study limited to that intersection typically in traffic engineering industry we look at thresholds of maybe 100 trips in an hour or 50 trips in an hour as being something that could be changing the flow of traffic in a location at Somerville road if you would continue West on Allen Road that area to the West would see during its busiest hours about 20 Vehicles New trips in the busiest hour so that does not reach a level in which there would be in the industry a significant change in traffic flow and traffic patterns and again that intersection at Su Road and Allen Road was actually requested by the board's traffic engineer to be studied and that is why it was added to the report good as because you cannot enforce that the TR the tractor tailor coming in on Allen Road the study should involve the road which on Allen Road on on the Hills as well because you cannot you're you're asking him if if if in his opinion it should include it it your question the question is why is it not included at at at this time I think Mr Right he answered the question why it wasn't you're saying you're you're asking him should it not shouldn't shouldn't it have been included anyway exactly it should have been included to begin with I disagree with that it's 1.2 miles from the facility you certainly will have the opportunity to make arguments and comments when you're sworn in a public comment to the extent that you know people can't clean what the argument is already okay thank you very much then would you please sign in you sign in we could Mr chairman we don't have to wait go ahead I did ask questions last time so I'm not sure if I can go or not I'm trying to wait I don't want to go ahead of anyone I'm sorry she did ask questions last time so it's only Rel to the yes yes I have questions about the February 1 memo but do I need to wait it out with your fellow members of the public I just don't know if there was anybody else who need I've been waiting else has questions we just show our hands who else wants to ask a question to see one you went last let's why don't we keep going with people who haven't had yet an opportunity I think it's what wishes to do I I didn't see their hands I kept hello uh my name is sukinda D last name da BB first name s k h v i n d r 124 Autumn Bridge Road Bedminster uh I have a traffic safety question um when the trucks the at the ESS uh from the facility when the trucks are uh going out and that entrance is at the at the curve there's a curve right so what's the reaction time for the oncoming vehicles uh especially when the there's inclement weather when it's raining or you know so the response time is more at that time so did you uh do any study on that y so the calculations that relate to stopping sight distance look at factors such as the grade of the road which again going up or down the breaking effect which again in clent weather could impact the speed and then obviously then you look at how far you could see at that time and again the reaction time is judged to be two seconds for you to see what's going on and then when it's raining heavily you know again usually when it's raining heavily the speed is actually not as high as it is when it's dry so again that gets factored in because if the speed is less the reaction time can be less but again we've studied the site distance at this intersection we reviewed it we provided it to your board's traffic engineer and the County traffic engineer to review to ensure that they felt there was proper design for this driveway from a stopping site and intersection site standard but you know all the trucks uh leaving the facility right onto Allen Road you know it takes more time for the trucks to gain the momentum right yes so that is why when a truck is stopped they actually need to see further because they need to make their decision with more of a gap they need to give themselves more time between cars that is factored in and that is what has been included in the sight distance profile no I'm not talking about the truck drivers or the trucks I'm talking about the oncoming traffic you know cars they School Bus you know they say School Bus rout right yes so and also uh my second question would be most of the truck delivery or drivers you know they come from out of the town right so they they are not familiar with the with the roads here right and mostly they use the GPS system so if the GPS system you know directs them through the slay Mount Road or you know Allen Road the ju did any of those studies and especially uh at the exit of the facility right uh there's a left lane also to make a left turn for the cost right what I mean if a driver decides to go in that lane because he wants to make a left turn there and you know because he's using DPS system so if he goes in the left lane he will hit a clearance bar so he would basically take down a bar above them he will end up hitting the sign that we have on the site on the left left hand side uh and he would be breaking a um traffic prohibition so there' be plenty of damage that he'd be leaving behind if he decided to make that movement even cars making left you know from that's facility you know if they Implement weather you know it's the same Hazard there so when this was an office building and had again there was 700 parking space I'm sorry there was still in Clement weather there was still accidents in 287 where people who worked in this building may have made left turns and generated more traffic pure car traffic previously than what we are proposing here so again there was you know 700 parking stalls on the site those people when they left many of them turned left onto Allen Road and drove through the hills previously before this site was developed or is proposed to be developed as a manufacturing use I just had to you know uh concerned about the about the trucks you know on the um no more questions no more questions okay thank you sir um we're going to take one more question tonight and then U it would be carried to the next meeting you can ask questions please if I can respectfully request that those people raise their hand and we come back we keep track or someone does we have a complete list of who speaks Derek smick d a r e k s SM y k 57 d a r e k SMI s SM y k 57 Shannon Hill Road Basking Ridge I have a question about how you use the it traffic generation study 11th Edition and I apologize if I'm not precise because I couldn't get a hold of it the library doesn't have it it it cost like $5,000 so my understanding is that it observed like 51 different facilities collected traffic data and you use the average of this 51 facilities because we don't know who the tenants are going to be are you proposing that the traffic study that you use and uh predictions will be imposed the limitations are going to be imposed that no facilities will be placed that are above that average no okay so what will happen if the applicant will find a tenant that's above average what how good are your study how good is your analysis well it is the definitive Source in the IND industry additionally one of the the features of the site is somewhat the parking itself you know this is a site that likely or will not have 600 trips an hour coming out of it because it only has so many parking spaces okay but but this is like now you're using completely different argument you somehow you never present this all 51 points of data you only remember the data that's below average it would during the last meeting you were asked what about the average give us some points of data you didn't remember today you couldn't find also this table so should you provide to the board more complete data and explain how you use it I will say that the board's traffic engineer has access to the same Publications that we utilized in this report uh I imagine if there was an consistency or something that he felt was not being portrayed correctly that he would have brought it up such as when I uh didn't include the left turn lane on uh in the most recent analysis again so I believe that that is what the board's experts are uh here to help translate what we do in the traffic engineering industry to the board and the public as a as a as a checker again the question is just about traffic generation and the use of average the use of average in this case is not appropriate because the tenant is not going to be changing every week you will choose the tenant and that tenant will stay for years so therefore therefore I'm asking a question sir therefore is your question isn't that correct or something WR exactly so isn't it correct that if the tenant is chosen that is on the higher end then your analysis should be repeated because the traffic could be five times as big as you predicted again I think there are site limitations that would prevent it from being five times as big or five times larger than what we projected again this is the average trip generation is what's utilized for every development every type of development even if you do not know the type of use on the site especially if you don't know the use on the site um and again I I defer to the board's experts uh that would be ensuring that this is the proper policy and procedure last question but do you agree if the tenant is chosen that is on the higher end of that study like 50 51 were observed so the other half that your predictions would be incorrect and and the the analysis whether they would be on there would not be problems with traffic may maybe not correct I don't know how many times you can answer the same okay I'm done I didn't hear yes or no so he didn't answer the question he did answer the question again we utilize the data that is used in our industry there are plenty of studies that boards have asked for just for informational purposes to get an idea after the site is in operation hey what's that generating your board engineer traffic engineer could do it we could do it in which afterwards we could report back you know what we said it was going to be 121 it's 12 six and uh trips during the busiest hour and it makes no difference so since we you did not present the other data you just now you're throwing the numbers but we did do not know the higher end so and okay I'm not questioning whether the process I just want you to tell me that if it happens that the the facility actually generates the traffic on the higher end you your calculations will not be correct as you present it there would be different analysis if the trip generation is different okay thank you very much thank you okay that closes the public portion of the meeting Mr yes I know have meeting if if people want to get the date of the next meeting we're going to announce that now without public without further public noce right is that uh can you give us that dat again the next public meeting for Signature acquisition is currently scheduled for Thursday March 14th okay and we'll have a we have a be Forum here tonight but uh we're just over everybody will be here second meeting Thursday you guys are good to come back second March March March uh 14th bear with Mr chairman we have Miss Smith you have something to address I just have two procedural questions and I have no objection to the March 14th date but I do just want to put on the record that April 3rd which is one of your future board meetings that's the first uh Wednesday in April yes think we've been generally doing this on the second Thursday perfect I just wanted to put on the record that I'm unavailable that evening so just for future scheduling purposes if you could take that into account I'm unil a April 3rd I don't think it'll Beed it's not sched right now thank you and then the other procedural question is over the course of the evening Mr Lair mentioned that he has transcripts um and therefore access to being able to refute certain facts through transcripts if the transcripts have been ordered I'd appreciate if they could be filed with the board so that the transcripts the transcripts are on the website wonderful all available transcripts are up on the uh Township's website then we'll download them from there thank you you got it they the uh ask right which is a special meeting but it's a regularly scheduled special meeting it's up it's up to the board and and and the uh and the chair but at least right now for announcement purposes this matter is going to be carried to March 14th I don't think we're going to be able to SCH meeting before then no definitely not I highly doubt we can do a third meeting in March but that can be address but but if as people are leaving or before they leave uh with the chair's permission I'll announce that this matter is being carried without further notice to March 14th 7:30 p.m. this same location I'd ask if I understood correctly Council may already be willing to provide an extension of time to act to Mid April is that correct through the next okay I may have been given faulty information the the the uh the uh when's the extension till idnight March right the for fine we have an extension of time to act you'll send an email confirming thank you to through March 15th uh and the next meeting will be March 14th 7:30 p.m. right here uh we have if I understand correctly Mr Simon cross-examining Mr seckler some other members of the public who have not yet asked questions or or at least not had an opportunity to ask the Capacity Analysis questions I believe we'll be questioning and then we'll be proceeding with the next witness who I understand is your last witness your planner Mr Hughes is that correct Mr Lair okay um and then we can address now the issue of special meetings or other meetings beyond the 14th we don't have a lot of people here tonight so I think we're going to have to ask our our fellow board members uh what their availability is and what would be possible so I think what's going to happen is we're we're going to be checking with the board members and see what accommodations can be made after March 14th though In fairness we have to have a a date to carry now so uh that that'll be looked into by the board members and Bo will make his determination we started this process about two and a half years ago we're now tearing the building down and all we've done for two and a half years is basically carry the property a lot of time and effort has been and discussion has been about fairness to the community the fairness to the ejectors the fairness to the board I'm just asking for some fairness for the applicant I I need to expedite the decision Mak process in any way possible I'd appreciate your consideration so that we can get this done one way or another but to drag us out only cost us money understood may be understood but it's still dragging out no no and the board does understand in the board the board is is going to address trying to have an additional special meeting uh and and as I understand it special meetings are at the expense of the applicant and I know you know that may believe understand so so uh but the board's going to look into that and without uh half the members here this evening it probably makes sense hearing themselves have been going out for more than a year understood duly noted the uh board will do its best to continue to expedite not withstanding volunte volunteer board and they're already doing twice a month they I have no doubt they'll try to do even more if they can okay all right thank thank you Mr um next item in the agenda number six comments from Members com possibility I think it would make a lot of a lot more comfortable if we had something showing the traffic running through Allen Ro from 287 going up and over that is not going to be significantly affected talking about I think we talking about question you were moving I was moving to number six on the agenda comments for members so something we can discuss at the next meeting no other com no comments no comments okay comments from staff none thank you motion to adjourn meeting no March March uh this meeting would be March 7th is our March 6th I'm sorry March 6th meeting is the next Board of adjustment [Music] meeting okay now we have motion I make a motion we adjourn the meeting second