St [Music] ch there it's not there now should we move this following all Bernville buau planning board meetings will be held in person at Meeting Hall on the second floor of the Bernville Municipal Building at 166 mind Road meetings will be live streamed on YouTube with no opportunity for public comment members of the public wishing to offer comments or ask questions will be required to attend the meetings in person the YouTube live stream access for all meetings is uh F ber will burrow streams this link will also be available on the agenda for each meeting which is posted on the bulletin on the burrow website which is uh www.org and on the B call public bu board at least 48 hours prior to meetings notice of these changes has also been emailed to the Burnville news and The Courier News by posting a copy on the burrow website and by filing a copy with the municipal CLK call on January 16th 2024 it is the intention of the board not to continue any matter past 11: p.m. at any regular or special meeting of the board unless a motion is passed by the members then present to extend to a later specified cut off time and same shall be announced at the opening of each meeting in addition the board does not intend to begin a new hearing after 10 p.m. nor begin testimony of a new witness after 10:30 p.m. any hearing conducted by the board is a quasi judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider in reaching a decision the quum appropriate to a Judicial hearing must be maintained at all times roll call yes Mr chairman Mr DeMarco here M Gardner is abent Miss Gall pres Mr Graham here Mr harwi is absent Mr McQueen here Mr sof here Mr Balden here here and Mr Zar here you have a car Mr chairman yes okay meeting minutes slightly format before does U any have any comments I know I did and you said the April 11th a working project still yeah it's almost done but but whatever so it's the 22nd and the main um par I didn't read the um the transfer transf but nothing about the meeting we approve February 22 May I'll second fav I any [Music] oppos so we're going to do well wait a minute 20 second okay no not not the 11 both at the same time got it okay sorry we did both okay so and I just want and those who moved and seconded and voted were at both meetings correct yes as a matter of fact the eligibility is exactly the same for both of those me so that's what I wanted to check as well you and I on the same page like the exensions appro yes okay we have no Communications except we do we have the planner onor here um is there anyone here that wants to discuss anything that's not related to what's on the agenda first two opportunities to do soone move on Old business There's No Business to the agenda just a Qui question I Mr Bri here regarding reports that we always see Washington poter Road um I'm speaking from um so my question is about the union Soil Conservation reports that we get um I want to know what the limit is and what they really mean for my understanding it's simply how the soil is moved it's stuff piled and they're interested in um a primarily and it get a water body if I may and I apologize for interrupting you're talking generally not with respect to particular application that's this evening correct correct thank you please proce I didn't hear I didn't hear you say J so what I want to know is so what I want to know is it does not tell us about I want to know what it does what it doesn't do it does not tell us if there's any pollution in that soil or if the project um is the great or not it simply tells us how they are moving s p in the soil and how to is that correct the answer is yes and no okay Soil Conservation District has a very specific task and that's to guard against Soil Road and help with sedation so they look at a site any site that disturbs more than 5, of square ft of bread they have to get a certification from the district and they approve things like soil measur defense tracking pad final restabilization U and those sorts of things if you are correct they don't get into what is in any of the S that's that's a exclusively Ur okay you have to order an environmental testing for them you want to do their impact study if you wanted to know the quality of that or not well there are there are profs okay okay thank you it comes up at a lot of meetings and I want to be sure when I make my comments that clear on that thank you very much okay no no further so no old business uh new business we have the bills any discussion motion we need yes um Mr DeMarco yes M Geller yes Mr Graham yes Mr McQueens yes Mr Simo yes and Mr walon yes and Mr zarino yes the motion par okay so we are now up to the public [Music] hearing application my refusal thank you board member no not nothing better than 10 minute hi good evening everyone John which is Scola pleasure to be back before the board tonight on behalf of AR at Bernardsville LLC uh this is a continuation of the application with respect to the Redevelopment of the Palmer Square Redevelopment area uh this is actually our fourth public hearing uh we're seeking a preliminary and final site plan approval uh for a mix use project that consists of 68 residential units uh and approximately 9,450 square fet of commercial space and accordance with the Palmer Square Redevelopment plan uh when we were last here two weeks ago you heard the testimony of our project engineer Paul mut uh he went through in detail the plan revisions that had been effectuated since since you know we originally started this application and you'll recall uh we actually uh reduced the size of the building somewhat to accommodate Road uh uh Somerset County uh Road widening requirements on Mount ay Road uh we did significant changes as it related to our loading area the ability to bring vehicles uh into the building itself so we reduce that whole area reduce pedestrian potential for pedestrian conflicts through that area uh and I told you when we were here last time that we were coming back tonight and we were going to have our project traffic engineer John corak and our project engineer uh or architect rather Kevin Smith back to F with the architectural plans the changes that were effectuated in that regard uh just as a refresher for the board uh regarding the uh the Redevelopment plan the Redevelopment agreement uh basically provides uh for 68 units provides for uh requires a minimum of 8,000 square ft of commercial space um we're proposing approximately 9,450 square feet uh the the plan the Redevelopment agreement also require us to provide 8,000 square feet of Frontage along the buildings and what that was really intended to do was as this board may recall from when it was going through the process is to provide public amenity space uh sidewalks um uh open space area along the frontages of the property which are really intended to to encourage more pedestrian development if you go to the site today it's about 3,000 square feet of sidewalk that goes around uh we are now in excess well approximately 10,000 square feet of space so we comply with the uh with the Redevelopment plan in that regard it was really all part of that collaborative uh design process so Mr corak uh made a Rise submitt um which addresses traffic and so forth I'm going to call on him to testify in the first instance we're then going to move over to Kevin Smith uh he's going to go through all aspects of of the architectural plans the plan revisions that were made since he originally testified and so forth he is going to speak to Building height he's going to speak to the fact that uh the the base grade as it relates to this development was actually established in the Redevelopment uh agreement and plan at 408 uh to establish height as it relates both to stories and and to height we do not believe there are any variances that are associated in that regard uh but we'll get to him eventually so unless anybody has any questions call Mr cor relates to engineering and traffic and I just want to get clarity my my understanding is that with the re uh with the handling of the new loading zone that that my understanding was that uh the trucks essentially would uh be driving in from Mount ARA and they would be driving out through Mount area and in fact you've increased I think the height and you've done a bunch of things to make it more hospitable for loading that's accurate correct there there's no intent for a truck a large truck to come in from Mount area and go out through no no in and out in and out of that spot that's for you John Z so your report indicated that trucks would be entering mount g and leaving Des yeah and that's not the case the trucks are entering and exiting through M area just well that's right now we have testimony that that's the case that makes sense I'll have Mr corak confirm it coincidentally we had the track no it's terrific um my my only ask if if I could with all due respect uh as we go through our Witnesses because I know we we sort of jump in with questions we could just get through testimony and we'll have plun time for for questions and that okay okay we'll try with traffic okay very good great I believe I already SW Mr B so remain under Ro correct we have to swear sorry all board professionals have swor except please raise your right hand and swear to goir about the truth yes I do thank you very great thank you again for the record John corak with Stonefield engineering um continue to be sworn and licensed is still current and in good standing so as it relates to actually if I could be admitted to the zoom so I can share my screen that would be helpful course just the visual aid you are good thank you you're welcome all right so up on the screen is um sheet C4 of the site plan set most recently revised set that Mr much uh testified to two weeks ago um I'll zoom in to the the actual schematic diagram just to give ourselves here in the council chambers and and those watching at home some visual uh components something to look at if you will can you just give us the last RIS date sheet C4 last revised date 426 2024 thank you great so coming off of I think it was the second hearing on this project uh where I previous ly testified uh there were a number of components of the traffic impact study that we were asked to uh take a look back at with respect to both comments from the board and comments from the board's traffic engineer uh within um the the traffic engineering review letter um one of the the key considerations I'll kind of walk through from the traffic study what has changed what is updated um we have updated the traffic study to be utilizing the latest version of Synchro 12 of Synchro which is Synchro 12 and we've also utilized a different type of analysis within Synchro 12 um called the lanes volumes timings analysis um this is a little bit different than the highway capacity manual analysis um and one that better models or or really more correctly models um the operations at the intersection in that the previous analysis was unable to take into account the periods where um the the light of the signal goes red in all directions and allows pedestrians to cross all at once um whereas the lanes volumes timings analysis incorporates that timing which of course leads to longer vehicular delays um at the light because it's it's red in every direction to allow pedestrians to go through um common signal timing configuration in downtown corridors like this something that that's you very appropriate for um areas with higher pedestrian volumes we need to make sure that we accounted for that um we updated our study for the changes to the site plan namely uh there a minor tweak on the square footage of the retail space that that went up slightly resulted in in one more trip in the uh pm and Saturday peak hours um we removed some of the credits or reductions that we were discussing two meetings ago um whether be Transit proximity or internal capture there are technical terms for different ways that that the Baseline volume that we would expect for the site to generate could be reduced uh we took those out of the report we still have the passby um traffic um volumes in the report as it relates to the retail for the people that are passing by the site and do stop in um but the the reductions related to transit or residential to retail retail to residential have been removed and then there was a a within the report itself a uh correction to some of the pedestrian volumes uh as we were going back and and digging into that all red phasing notice some anomalies with The Pedestrian volumes comparing it to the count data um and and ultimately the the figures and the analysis have been revised to reflect that the updated study you're referring to is dat May 13 2024 that's correct thank you for the yeah I appreciate that so so those are the revisions that went into the traffic study and what those revisions um entailed or or resulted in as it relates to our analysis our our level of service analysis Capacity Analysis is when in the two meetings ago we were talking about um fairly smooth operations at level of service C we're seeing those delays uh much higher and much closer to existing conditions that we we really see out there today we find that um the the updated study is is a very good representation of what people experience and see at that intersection on a day-to-day basis where on the mainline on Route 202 um you know those levels of service are generally speaking in the the level of ser they're still in the level of service C to D range as opposed to the A to B and then on the side streets um North and South uh you do see levels of service depending on the movement and the time of day that range from D all the way to um the level of service F and that's that's uh has to do one with the pedestrian volumes two theane geometry and three how the dot prioritizes their own Highway versus the side streets through this Bal um that said just because uh a traffic signal and approach operates at that letter grade does not necessarily mean that there is um a complete capacity overload or otherwise um and and you know additional traffic to that intersection does not necessarily result in exacerbated um delays and that is what we've ultimately found through the revised study where we have again routed the traffic to and from moristown Road Route 202 um and and reconducted that level of service analysis going from the no build analysis to our build condition in the morning the overall intersection delay take the average of all vehicles that delay increases by less than 1 second on average per vehicle in the evening it's the same thing less than 1 second on average per vehicle the average of all approaches and on the Saturday it's less than 2 seconds these are all very very minimal increases in delay not something that we would consider to be significant uh by any means as it as it as it relates to levels of service um we also reviewed the the site driveway level of service um that level of service was calculated with the the highway capacity manual methodology um we're finding levels of service C and D for those turning movements out but we also do recognize that especially in the evening um on Route 202 the left turn out trying to get on to uh to 202 South it's queuing back past that driveway pretty much the totality of the hour it's busy we I think recognize that people are coming home they're they're taking 202 to do so and you know to that extent that that is very much an existing condition that can't be um you know so much mitigated by this project but uh it's something that we understand and there's there's appropriate times for time of day restrictions the board may feel this is one of them the Dot may feel this is one of them um where that left turn out is a uh is is a difficult movement to make without someone offering you a courtesy G that's that's the reality of the situation and um you know want to present that testimony to the board as such um we reviewed the the sight lines uh from that driveway and the Redevelopment plan um one requires the driveway location to be uh essentially pushed all the way to the east as far as possible on Morristown Road to give ourselves the greatest spacing distance um tun from or or greatest spacing distance from the traffic signal we also flew a drone during the peak hour conditions and what what we see you know obviously the queuing that that we've all experienced what we also see is the speed or the rate of travel of people coming up uh Morristown Road and going around the turn so between the upgrade and the turn with the lane width people are not traveling through there at even 25 30 35 mil an hour they they tend to be going the of 15 to 20 miles hour through there and so those lower speeds result in less stopping sight distance needed there less time less distance needed to stop um at the intersection less intersection site distance needed that's the time to judge a vehicle for for a vehicle waiting to turn to turn out either way um and as it you know as we uh look the other direction we still have the good lines of sight there so as it relates to the actual ual field conditions not just the the the speed limit through there but how motorists are driving um of course this drial location an improvement but the sight lines through there um I believe are are adequate to support those turning movements in and out um of the site driveway the last piece that I want to touch on relates to uh the deliveries and I will I'm going to go ahead and um just I'm going to roll right into I think this is an exhibit that would need to be marked it's been colorize certainly but if you can give us the title of it yeah so this is a vehicle circulation plan um it is last revised April 26 2024 is prepared by our office Stonefield engineering and it consists of four sheets that was submitted right but was it colorized when it was submitted yeah it was this is exactly as it was I wasn't sure if it's PR submitted days yeah so we can just don't have to mark it as an exibit perfect we have what are the sheet it's just yeah one through four there's no C no one of four two of four three of four the the first zoom in a little bit the the first sheet is fairly self-explanatory uh this is the passenger vehicle navigating in and out of the site driveway um some of the the line work is uh is not shown but but you can tell essentially by the location of the vehicle against double yellow line that the vehicle is um you know within that travel Lane and staying within there and navigates in and out of the payate area um in the uh in the you know in the underground structure um the next sheet the next three sheets are essentially each different um delivery truck um turning movement templates if you will the first one being a typical residential which sheet are you on right now one sheet two4 thank you uh being a a typical residential uh moving truck this is a uh a U-Haul truck where it's a 20ft U-Haul truck which is actually 26 feet long it's the 20 foot inside the the storage the back part of the truck the trailer if you will um making the right turn in for Mount AR Road uses um the the far area probably doesn't need to swing out or come out all the way this far but then can navigate into either of the two loading uh spaces interior to um the garage and then to leave it pulls forward reverses and then um travels out and can make that right turn onto Mount AR Road the same configuration is shown on sheet three this is with the su3 30ft box truck a little bit longer truck little bit wider turns um to to make those turning movements out but again all can fit within the confines of um the parking areas the driveways we have a much narrower driveway on m road at 24 feet as opposed to the 40 plus speed that was was previously U shown and then the uh the sheet 404 is the largest truck that that we would expect and accommodate this is the uh Su 40 a 40 foot long box truck and again is making those similar movements um this truck is is less frequent certainly but um Can can utilize uh you know those those turning bays and make those turning movements without crossing over uh the yellow Center Line at Mount AR Road and the last one um brief covered this but um the last one it's 13 and a half fall correct is there 13 it's not probably not you to ask but we should come back to make sure there 1 and a half of clearance over that whole pattern that's there yeah I'll defer that to The Architects that it but but it will have to be in orderer that's the one that's the otheres are based on the traffic setting are we restricting access and loading to that time day the I by time of day not not anticipating a restriction now these types of deliveries don't happen very frequently in that peak hour because these logistics companies that do the deliveries um do not like to have their trucks out in the peak hour making fewer deliveries because they're in traffic um what we've we the the I guess the fortunate thing with this applicant is that they have other residential buildings um we specifically uh reviewed one of the sites in Harrison as it relates to um the truck traffic they receive from for these residential deliveries that's a building um about 400 units it's about 80% occupied at this time so over 300 of the units are occupied and it's it's much larger than this and those logistic companies still um only bring one truck per day to make those deliveries so your FedEx your UPS your USPS those are one truck a day and they you know they they come deliver and and that's it Amazon it's one truck that that that does most of the deliveries but we know Amazon will will come at a at a few different times a day so you might get one to three stragglers in the day that that make that kind of delivery but this is not the not the situation that they've experienced at that location where we would have you know an influx of deliveries um as it relates to residential movein that has to be scheduled as it relates to uh the retail deliveries that would be scheduled as well um the same thing with with trash recycling pickup all of that so that way you know two spaces that are there 95% of the time are going to be empty but we need to make sure that we don't have three come at once that that's it can the um the deliveries that can be scheduled beeded on hours oh they would be it's the same can be stipulated that as management company or yes yeah it's it's a logistics thing too so it's yeah especially things like trash trash recycling movein move out Furniture deliveries which we talked about with the with the su4 um US Postal understanding it's not perfect right if best attempts schedule outside of PE hour yes sir could you touch I'm sorry goe could you touch on the left hand turns you were mentioning windows so before I was referring to the leftand turns for passenger vehicle traffic on Route 202 yeah oh I see yeah we're it's routinely especially in the evening it's routinely queued back and and blocking the ability to make a left out um at the down here it's it's pretty likely that the county would look to restrict that okay um they specific they no they have not yet no record we sit down there you're talking on Mount on the mount hary driveway appreciate that problem sorry members um and you believe that that would be for exting of entrances or stri left typically what I see from the county when you're when we're this close to the traffic signal it'd be both okay um it might be a peak hour Peak period restriction where you know in the midday when actually more of the deliveries are truck movements are happening um you know that they may allow it still but just the say for the entrance where we have a single Lane headed southbound with no shoulder to bypass no way to get around and if you have two to three cars waiting at the light it backs up into the traffic light so I I would not be surprised if there's a left turn yeah okay thank I'm not sure if this is now or later but you have the rule up door or the deliveries so if you have larger than a 20ft truck how do they access they're going to be some of them may be sticking out into the road no so the rollup door is is actually located further in to the uh to the site itself so on the on the site they actually when you when you drive in your cab of your truck would actually the underneath part of the building where the rollup door is okay so it doesn't look like 40 ft to me it it from from Curb to the rollup door it is more than 40 feet okay not not with the scale okay just as long as they're not waiting on the road yeah they not be sticking out to the so just to clarify so was coming in they P into the driveway and wait for the door to be open not obscure the road correct and there's a there's a handful of different Management systems that uh their applicant employs um camera system able to be accessible not only in the office but you know from the phone and the like you point out where the rollup door is on yeah so the rollup door on the architectural plan is shown essentially where the the retail trash Corridor and then this is a faint line coming across that's fine two curb oh sorry this is let me check confirm the scale this 20 scale it is 20 scale it's it's I it's pretty close okay is that a 42 yes this is 42 feet I'm not and Mr cor as well just relative to to those deliveries if the larger truck is coming in the management systems they have virtual doorman Etc they can also have the door open as the truck is arriving yeah especially especially with those larger delivery um you know that can that can pretty much be timed down to down to a science where the second that truck starts to turn in the do starting to go up because you know that the furniture deliver is coming you know that and and the Su 40 would probably be one of more likely one of the uh the movein which are coordinated through management we're talking about 68 humit here right so we're not talking about an Su 40 coming in here on a daily or even a weekly basis it's it's part of the move in move out corre process correct correct correct thank you keep going yeah with and with that it's it's you know I think those are the main um components from a traffic perspective um in reviewing the transcripts and from the from the last hearing or two hearings ago um at this point I don't have anything else to to provide in direct but happy to answer any more questions that the board has is the model the new one Whatever related to and this would be related to residential the access the model based on parking spaces or residential units or what what the parameters that go into the model the the trip generation the traff coming in out it's based on the number of units number of units okay that and does the model have any consideration for the deliveries other than the ones you've already handled namely Uber pickups uh door Dash pharmaceutical deliveries all that kind of um smaller delivery activity of course the the UPS we don't know and you know the Amazon small but does the model have any section for that it it tends to be baked into the you know the traffic count data from you know that's collected at these other types of sites um what I will say what we're looking at specifically is the the roadway peak hour and a lot of those deliveries a lot of those um you know Uber Eats and door Dash and the like um they're they're a little bit less frequent in the peak hour because that's when the people are traveling to and from the site and we see a a little bit of a higher a rate of of that sort of activity on the off peak hour which is obviously a a less intensive condition that's not studied here is the intent for I would call them I mean the residential cars that lat used for things like uber weats is the intent the management company them to use the the loading entrance or the actual entrance of yeah so so any passenger vehicle type delivery Uber Eats door Dash um and the light even an Uber coming to pick up someone at the the unit um they would enter through the route 202 driveway um and through the through the pay Gates and what what we were proposing is to offer um essentially a you know similar to called the old days at the airport they don't do it anymore but where if you um if you're in the lot for less than a certain time say 10 to 15 minutes your exit would be free right and so that allows them to come in park uh take the food either to the lobby or up to a unit if they get buzzed in um and return come out and you know not have to deal with the loading area um and and otherwise uh you know circulate in a passenger vehicle designed area with the passenger vehicle is is that something that is trained just through condition I'm assuming there's so many of them out of if they pull into the loading zone they're's going to leave the car and walk in they just how does that practically happen well if you pull into the loading zone there's and and architect can clarify this but the ability to then walk in isn't really there it's it's you know you still have to get past the loading door and and and the like how it's trained is through these apps when you put in your address to say deliver to um this building right the the app essentially knows and directs that driver where to go to it directs them to um you know to that driveway entrance the same way at Newark Airport if you tell them you know you're at Terminal a uh stop nine at the pick up right they know exactly where to go to do that um so it's trained in that respect the same way it as a uh as a passenger the app will tell you where to go as well is that something that as a management company you tell ask ignorantly you tell these apps that this is the entrance for this yes and you're stipulating that you'll tell the app that this is the entr of course now it's you know that's a benefit for everyone yes yeah for the public can you uh just go ahead and state the hour the peak hour times I know it's in the report just so they're aware of the peak hours that we selected and while John's doing that we were thinking 15 minutes by the way on the on the pre-entry and exit I I'm assuming that would be the same if they were going to if they wanted to pop into a retail store well correct obviously if somebody's going to get in and now quickly yes pick up something they may have purched or food or what have you and so the the the time periods that accounts were collected were 7:00 a. to 9:00 am. 400 P.M to 7 P.M that's on a weekday and then on the Saturday from 11:00 a. to 2 PM okay so we're capturing the the morning Peak the evening Peak and the Saturday Peak period now when we analyze we Whittle it down to a single hour which was 7:30 to 8:30 5 to 6 and 11:15 to 12:15 these were the hours in each of those periods where traffic volume was at its highest traffic yeah I think the only thing that might have been missed was the um School traffic I just wanted to make sure people 73 yeah between 7:15 in the afternoon so um with the traffic study you were saying the side roads were D or F in in that that's M AR going south that takes into account that yeah especially that in the morning um you're trying to make that those movements from an are on 202 you even included Anderson Hill right that was part was part of it so if knowing that we um you grally set back the building to accommodate the county if the county ever decided that they wanted to fix some part of that intersection um do you stipulate that you would open to conversation about how that intersection could be fixed as long as it didn't e either your property or the walkway of course they you know they're also provided with the traffic study and know they would they would do uh Alicia Myers and the team there would do their own study but but yeah we're I'm not holding my breath the bur has been asking for County to fix that intersection for as long as I've been coun yeah I I I understand uh understand the feelings there and the concern I think one thing that this this application and this project does that's very beneficial is just The Pedestrian infrastructure through here where you can't walk past uh you know the the the southeast corner without really stepping into the road just where the poles are so wouldn't be a true statement I believe it is true because of the RightWay conditions if the county did say that we want to insert a second lane because of the right away they would have the right to do that correct yes yes but they still in many respects we wouldn't have a choice obviously it's a do it's a do decision the intersections under control of do correct but the county with the master plan right away with um you know has has the ability to work with the as far as did you did you PL the uh the the single unit 40 making a right turn and going east on 202 this exhibit doesn't have it um could run that but just how far the Stop Bar set back here um you know that that movement look very feasible you mean the additional turn right you have the turn going turn you have turn out and then one more turn to go Northbound to eastbound not plotted here but just the the open space through there because if you go out there you see a lot of black marks on the curve right where where vehicles are hitting the curve going east going north on 202 going to be just go ahead finish I think I think that perhaps you know maybe um without the with the buildings located where they were where they are like um the ne location at Pur there's no setback with property all the way in this corner of the purple building the the northwest corner of MEP building so if there was to be any how how would that be Implement I don't see that that area to widen through there it's not something that I would Envision the the department well one of the problems i' see is because that the last meeting the um and I forgot who it was but somebody mentioned riding a bicycle through there yes the roads don't align mind BR doesn't the center line mind BR doesn't align with M Mount marown Road so there's that shift in the traffic flow and so what happens is call it the Northbound 202 and up that's where you hit the curve hitting curve scuffing and the and in the ter R problem you're in front of purple the well it starts the corner yeah yeah and the the existing signal equipment is right up there on the corner and I think uh we're both aware that even trying to smooth out this radius the NJ do will make us rebuild the entire traffic signal um and that unfortunately is a cost that a development of this size is not not really able to Bear the actual building is above that me space right I mean yeah so the it's not right is there's building but it could that could be something that the county would be count wanted to redesign the Char right not on St and then um a couple questions about your model the um the stacking Lanes you have in the model 70 70 or 75 ft for the left for the left turn stacking in reference to right right there and also on Mount Aon yes and I question would 75 ft we could take a look at the aerial it could be 50 feet right because then what happens is well the the model also doesn't show C and I mean I write to that intersection twice a day and looking up down are it backs up yeah so right so so understanding that that Lane's volume's timing output doesn't include the queuing and even if you turn on the queuing button it only collects the queuing of two consecutive cycles and so what I looked at what what I looked at before this was the Sim trffic simulation um and it's showing all of those those queueing points that you're talking about whether it's backing up you know past our Sight Drive Line Route 202 backing down Mount ARA the Northbound traffic you know coming coming down southbound um to to approaching 202 different times a day have those different queuing Peaks but but they're I I feel comfortable that the model is calibrated appropriately based on the Sim traffic based on uh the results that we're getting from the lanes volume timings and if that storage length in the left turn is two or three vehicles um you know that that is one thing but the the predominant queuing as it goes back it's you know it all merges into that roomate so in your last testimony I believe and I didn't see it so believe me about in the last model less than a 10% change in traffic during peak hours is that still consistent or am I remembering it correctly um that is very much consistent in terms of the the traffic added by this is definitely less than 10% in each of the peak hours well I don't have any I don't have any issue with the um the impact of the the project but I I do have an issue with the existing condition of being substandard and this is a this was done through a different order of development wasn't a simple planning board application right a Redevelopment plan development so does the Redevelopment concept include only addressing existing substandards certainly with with The Pedestrian element here where you cannot walk at that Southeast Corner we're providing a much Superior um layout for a downtown pedestrian oriented area where quite frankly the the movement of vehicles through here we want to keep it slow we want to know slower Vehicles improve pedestrian safety because in the you know unfortunate event of a pedestrian being hit by a car um the the survival chances or the injury rates are much much lower when the car is going 20 M an hour than when they're even going 30 m an hour and so you keep keeping that smaller and what are the what are the sight you didn't say what the sight lines are driveway yeah so at the driveway um looking left toward the intersection the Mar Road the2 driveway looking left toward the intersection getting about 195 feet of sight line um which at the the speeds that the vehicles are traveling complies both with the intersection sight distance and stopping sight distance what's the stopping sight distance for 35 miles hour 35 miles hour I do do have that 30 plus it's well through the intersection well the speed limit is 30 and the design speed is usually five miles right that's on on a typical Highway yes through this curvature with the narrow lanes and the upgrade that's not the speed that people are traveling we've we've watched this on drone video we timed the vehicles we calculated their rates of speed where's the existing driveway by the way uh about where I guess you can actually see on um the plan it's just to the east of the MEP building so right after the curve what's so as said you said 190 ft correct 195 correct and what is the what is the safe stopping site distance for 35 for 35 design speed is 250 it's it goes would go well through the intersection so it's with the so the site distance doesn't meet the standard the the standard being Highway free flow condition not not what we've actually observed out there you don't go 35 through that through that curve well I appreciate that the speed limit set the 30 but that doesn't mean people are traveling 30 or 35 because of the geometry so so you're saying that because it's gridlock or because it's potential not gridlock because level of surface at on the Northbound and the cues are what they are that that's an advantage to the uh no it's because of the Narrow Lane because of the upgrade as you you approach the driveway as you're departing the intersection and because of the curve all of those things are what slows down the vehicle the queuing or the gridlock once you're past the intersection you're not in the queue you're part of the the travel you know that well if you had the if the building was set back the me building set back could you get more site distance marginally depending on the activities that are in the uh the sidewalk if there's the sidewalk sales that are permitted if there's table service out front you're losing that because said you're locally deficient on the design requirements or the I I disagree I don't I don't believe that that is the correct design speed assumption you have a you have a postage speed of 30 miles hour correct so wouldn't want assume that during off peak hours that traffic would be traversing that intersection at 30 m hour no because the the movements through that curve are not related to the traffic it's not related to the volume it's related to so because the road widths are are substandard and the lane alignment is substandard you're saying that that is positive well especially for a pedestrian safety standpoint the the the slow rate of speed through here is certainly something that we would want to encourage in a walkable downtown area yes I question that that thought process okay understood did you um you you've already mentioned that there's a potential which was a good observation that the uh going Southbound on 202 that that lane has been observed to back up everybody that and that therefore making a left hand turn out of the access driveway might be frustrating and it's one lane right so anything behind would be backing up behind them you know on site and that therefore maybe there should be some consideration of a constraint uh by hour or day whatever or making that leftand turn um in that direction um fine so noted um did you uh see can you discuss the crosswalk that's uh just to the east of your access driveway and whether that played any role in any of the models yeah so the crosswalk and the volumes through there we did review that same Drone footage I was referring to the total Crossings at that midw crosswalk are fairly minimal to the extent that it doesn't have any any significant or real impact on the queuing back of those vehicles and even if they wait a few seconds for pedestrian to cross they essentially pull up 20 feet and then they're right back in the queue is is there any best practice but you know as as you mentioned the current driveways you're going to move it to theine but now you're you're really much closer to that crosswalk is there anything that to your knowledge that should be done uh at that crosswalk uh like so you know whatever that someone turning right going leaving the property and turning right they're they're going to be pretty smack right up against that crosswall they're that that to come in contact with quickly because they're is there anything toled that for pedestrian safety there should be considered I think that one one component of this right and you see where it's preferred to place these crosswalks at intersections and so aligning that driveway close to the crosswalk helps keep the crosswalk in the intersection realm if you will um as it relates to additional improvements I can't recall if there's any sort of push button or flashing Beacon or anything like that out there there is one there but there's a lot of Technology now implementations and I just wonder if you yeah I've seen I've seen and recommended that kind of installation uh a number of mid block Crossings um it it needs to be designed and installed properly for it to have a a good effect but so in theory if there was like hypothetic emotion detection something and people are stepping off and then the cross theoretically could be you know little embedded stre lights and there could theoretically be a little a light at your exit point you know something you know like yeah so War it is pretty close right yeah yeah it's it's barely on the drawing about 20 feet or so so it's pretty close yeah what what I've seen at crosswalks like this where it's mid block but it's also kind of at an intersection I've actually seen those uh The Pedestrian uh flashing lights be oriented not only to the traffic on that roadway but be oriented at um the you know the drivew or intersecting Street for those right term movements so it it is possible to incorporate that technically Poss when when you talk about pedestrian volume part of the Redevelopment is to increase pedestrian volume did you take that into account we did yes we did increase The Pedestrian volume within our um traffic analysis that increased the number of pedestrian calls increased the number of uh you know occurrences of that all red um timing and in this small crosswalk uh I'm I'm talking specifically about the the signal crosswalk where you know that's where the delays are really stemming from at the mid block Crossing it'd be great to to see that pedestrian volume increase and you know have residents go to and from you know this building across the street but the delays associated with that um don't have a material impact on the rest of the network especially the traffic signal where it's really all originated so I'd like to make right here if this decides to get approved I'd like to see as the body make a recommendation to the council to request safety features at that right at that I me should be anyway if anyone intersection I think it's a dangerous crosswalk I personally felt that before so probably to the and for the too have yes stipulate that change opportunity we would have access to make enhancements on the site yeah yes it's a probably a good time to do it to just in the going through the NJ do approval that's not a separate to be a separate per necessarily as part of the revelop John you correct so there Revenue in that Redevelopment agreement that is specifically addressing Square John is that correct I believe Joe's gone in the plan no in in the Redevelopment agreement I'm fairly certain because money thank you those those M be used to improve the earning temp it's not our jurisdiction I don't know I don't think so this is a state and county question but if the Redevelopment positives can solve some of the negatives why not well what I'm saying is I don't think it's fairly certain it's not within our jurisdiction to solve issue and the money that we have in that stipulation for all C square is doesn't consider what the state county designed well just P back the aligning the m road with the Mar Road so my experience has been we may pain a hot box no but the problem is that once we approve this project with these setbacks you know virtually zero sets well that's why I asked the question um so if the county or state allowed changes to the road the building Chang but the problem is that they can't once the building's built that's what happen with the Palmer building well I think that they've got too close to the curve traffic sign left about 6 in to get by them and this is moving the they cutting off part of the B building but where the me building is no not the me [Music] building I'm saying to the east well being any just a quick question and I'm pretty sure you know the answer maybe um is um the curve alarm wor down road is the applican having to replace that curve or is it or is that curve it's all the and you're you're obviously going to do the surface work correct did if you could find out this I just don't remember I the it's typical on a DOT application for them to request you to replace the curve I would I would in kind essentially so anyway in kind of in support of the house the sorry Mr chairman you should speak a little bit louder the curb is going to have to be well we suspect the curb is going to have to be refreshed or whatever reconstructed in one way or another so it's not like oh it's got to stay there otherwise unexpected you know if it was just the curb that Mr simoff is is talking about i' wouldn't see that as really any sort of substantial hurdle it becomes those two traffic signal Poes and then with the dot rules especially that they enforce on private developers it would be complete traffic signal rebuilt well not the the signal was rebuilt about five or eight years ago lose track of time but but what they did is on the the corner by uh I guess it's the north northwest corner that was all that's all loose signal it was done by um into the two signal poles they didn't mess with two signal poles on the on the Palmer's side because they were substantially subst I wish that my experience was that the dot um would let you leave that equipment in place we've seen different cases we have a project where we had signal work and they had just installed the traffic signal and and we had to to change out the all the equipment back it's but what about what about moving the me I call it the me building it's the whole building it's not the it's actually the building it's the building above also but what about moving that to the east to get a better setback from the property you get better sight lines you could get closer to um the required site distance see I don't think it's going to impact sight lines because those sight lines still need to look through the property and even if it's you know the sidewalk or patio area out there you know if there's a restaurant there with outdoor seating they're going to want to do that sidewalk sales the like I understand the comment but also the the curvature through here while it makes you go slow and slow down that's that's a great thing for downtown and in a pedestrian oriented area and and I I know I I know that it's it's wor creating the C situation I I disagree I think the higher speeds of of vehicles traveling through here especially outside those peak hours is is a much less safe situation when when we heard testimony about bike riders getting knocked over when we heard you can see the scuff marks on the curving it it doesn't align and this is a I mean this obviously is a positive factor by cutting cting off the part of the Palmer building but I think that if if the I call I keep calling it the ne building building it's the whole building it's the whole building that if you move it to the East and increase that setback uh then you have the potential that if there was the a need or a project that could be Improvement of the alignment and it could be done with that building being built where it's proposed you there's nothing that can be done once the building's up I I think that moving that building back is would ultimately open the door just for wider faster travel Lanes with what D it is unsafe so um I mean we just had a demonstration of that it was not what you'd expect it was a truck uh coming down uh Anderson and making a turn onto Morris Town and it dumped its vad of laws on where The Pedestrian sidewalk be so it's there's no question it's unsafe um maybe there could be speed bumps there be something you know who knows because of the whole what like other Alternatives but it is not a sa situation right but we're we're vastly expanding That Sidewalk Network here to help to help that the I I just want to get one thing stipulated because you you did testify to it not you but the um we'd like to at least get into the record may already be there but the official statement from the do that your uh suggested um RightWay lights that they confirmed that they're good with RightWay lights you know you did the county and you did do and the do said yeah this line with this radius and so forth as depicted on the plans is our expectation is fine so we need to just get that formally into the I think I think our engineer uh provided that testimony I can't stipulate to council but I'm pretty sure Mr much uh spoke to that it just needs there just needs to be a document from D I asked twice copy the D application as for the last meeting I asked for in a previous meeting at both times we said yes we'll Supply that right and it hasn't arrived we will and and and as you know Mr s these are all these are outside agencies these are conditions you will condition it on on those Outside Agency approvals and we'll provide it according but when the when the the procedure is that when the application is subed it gives the borrow and the county the opportunity to comment on the sure on permit and it's kind of difficult to comment on a permit application if you don't know what being apply for is um more information on the quote M the build area that area is that area of ll1 of the of what shop is that that corner with a little Jag in it is that below grade that question well you'll figure that out I just was curious because it's one thing to change grade versus the building on top of it you may have some opport whatever'll cover it later based on what I see and correct me if I'm wrong you have a surplus parking no we're right on the number we're 134 and 134 I was going to say moving to the east to the right gives you a better setback and only takes away a couple understood Mr um any questions just to question neighborhood infrastructure revelop I think I speak I don't want to speak to the entire Council intent what we talk about using that Mone there's also requirement in the development agreement that the shall pay the sh so there'll be responsibility there all right I don't have any questions but would you like me to go through what we did on behalf of the board is this the right time I think that more an issue right now it's an issue to you know questions this any our questions yeah questions related to Traffic you know or comments or you know that you you can make comments I I would I would offer one comment um on the discussion of the the corner radius U right now where that Palmer building is as we all know there's no room barely even get that single equipment in there it's barely in there now because of how close that hmer building is once the applicant touch that building back and opens up that corner I think it does open up an opportunity for do to improve that Rus an opportunity they don't have right now they can't move that building the applicant moves the building opens up the corner and what I would suggest is that the burrow right into the B and ask them to Pro that R point out all the problems it's a choke point for bicyclists it's not safe and have eot under a work order say hey we got the right away now we're we're getting rid of the building eot under a work order would you be willing to now move your equipment and do a radius change and that way outside entities don't get pulled into the do Madness is just the DP doing it themselves which sometimes goes a lot better get their yeah check it all the try and get something concrete opport that's exactly right I joke about paint the equipment that they used so I I can tell you the bur was asked more times than I could count and I I that's why I as a question about the right away the decision well wouldn't that also go to maybe just moving the N building to the east well you want to flatten the radius basically I mean that's your you want to align with [Music] mind closer alignment so that when they go through the intersection you don't have that shift which you can't do when building is you can't do the corner you can't shift it no you have to shift it right at the corner of any KNE building no no it's before that right here this is this is where it's just here this first thing you hit oh yeah it matters up here too but right here they only have what Jay just described they have an opportunity to change this radius but they can't but they can no but you can't change the radius I what's the distance between the property line and the that line well the first constraint is the con the existing residual Palmer building is going to constrain the realignment as you requested now it should be parted when we ask them to look at the ask about part of that should be hey guys can you make this a little more um visually direct they're still going to run into the pal building immediately but problem is that if you want something done you have to have RightWay to do it and the me building just doesn't leave enough distance from the proping line to to the existing curve they have to have a minimum of 5et excuse me the amount of sidewalk in front of the buildings at the curve no can you put that up by the way actually a good question no it was in front I thought it was in front there the distance we were talking about planning yeah why don't we go off of the U this is just a truck turning of it yes so shown bring back up the site plan sheet um the corner of what we've calling the MEP building but we get the sheet number still uh sheet C4 C4 okay last 26 yes it shows the it shows the the improvements N 9 ft off the Cur but the do requires a 5 side correct so I mean doing the subtraction there's not much more than 5 between the property line and the right away dark RightWay line that's what I call the property line no that's the right away line it's not the property line I mean do requires a 5 foot sidewalk through a downtown I would want wider than 5T certainly 5T is pretty narrow for any any down Main Street well I mean you show 9 ft or 9.7 ft part of that is on priv yeah this is a dimension from the building to to the curve line correct what's if you slide down to the Palmer what's the dimension from the Palmer there to the existing Cur so sorry yeah we start here at 6.8 to the property line and then out to the curb which is in the same location that's uh 20 scale um 12 and 12 feet n in so so in theory the curve could be brought back towards the building 4 feet I mean through straightening it that point I'm I'm sorry you're not agreeing to it and it's whatever no it's it would require those traffic signal poles to be rebuilt but oh because the traffic signal yeah they're they're right there yeah so it's right there yeah so that's going inhibit our ass anyway unless they're willing to rebuild the traffic no but see the county RightWay is where the red line is I understand but if we said look bring that full radius in yeah which is what we were asking implicit in that is oh well there two signal exensions there that have to be County state to move your to bring the to bring it in closer to the prop building I believe last time we asked this question Who currently slid sidewalk SP I think the intent and I'm I'm not I'm speaking burrow intent was to made that space bigger right for a lot of those problems now I I think again I'm giving my opinion I would be willing to recommend the council to move those stand to recommend to the state and the county move those St to improve that corner right but it it doesn't satisfy the total I don't I don't see the the thing you see at the other end it straightens the intersection yeah that straight the intersection it's where that curve line is today that's on the diagonal essentially going from the intersection up to the m building that's what you want essentially to lower you know to align with r throw look speaking as a l person here in my intent is to have more sidewalks I can tell you if you were talking to coun Samra she would close the whole intersection not allow in car to go through there and reroute around I don't think the council has that kind of appetite but I think having my sidewalk is possible um since you open understand aspect but um not negative I also had a plan which said everything running on mind BR Road would essentially go in One Direction M Road would be a single Direction road that would then allow realignment no matter what was it but I think those are Council considerations right I would not I can speak personally something that I would consider and a rerouting traffic in that entire area and I know that's part of why we hire a traff consult move on when the ne building is the Improvement potential is significantly r that stru that structure so we're planning it now and if we can move the me building back so that when the council petitions the do to improve the inter that we had adequate rule to do um so I'm going to give a personal statement I don't believe that as a governing body as person right as I would say in Council as the right impact on personal property beyond the right ways that provided by the state that's my person and this is have to go with me as my political beliefs and what I think the rights to prop H it tracks into another discussion that will cover the majority of and you already know the point which is hey hey hey why can't we bring the front of that building back a little bit to create less even though you've got tons of public bring it back to create less of an impact in term the vertical nature of it it would it would and that's why I asked about whether it's above or below grade you could still have while you're parking you could still have this floor the way it is because maybe none of this is above grade at that point you know that you literally have the sidewalk there the building we're referring to is the retail yeah and the building the building doesn't have to follow the foundation building we'll get to we'll get to architecture it's the building it is the building no but what's is it just a one story building there no no it's four floors it's a whole deal all it's the Corner Apartments which are massive your op how if you were waving the one how much space would you you go 5 5 7t because the do been us as an excuse why they can't do it well but I I don't think you want I guess I'm we don't want to no I'm just talking aboutt you get enough to flatten that curve improve the sight distance make a safer intersection but we have no guarantee they'll do that I guarantee they won't do it OPP to yeah I mean you talk about angle it yeah you can still do that quarter because they're taking the P building out of there right at that corner you could make that flatter you make that right turn easier just did a little more room through that corner which is that is the pitch point so in your opinion that's the problem that that is problem number one problem number one and the bik people would say well don't there you know like a surface right just know I think we're all for making return by the Palmer building easier I think it does there's a debate about the curve by the MVP building about whether you know making that straighter or wider would actually save he pointed out the curve you know does encourage traffic slow down regardless of L would need to be need to be protect there's lots of other T that relate to this the front you know the mar so I know thank you for bearing with us uh any other questions from our Professionals for this witness that's what they [Music] said the um I'm going call myself do the the uh is your license current it is it is question Mr chairman will you accept me as an expert field of yes please only if your patent lawyer that's right the the uh actually just wanted to utilize Mr if I make for a moment uh Mr had May 8 2024 report uh that I believe the traffic impact study came 5 days later May 13 so we all your issues to your satisfaction address and if not please help theard as MERS of the public as where they weren't if they weren't where okay so the report was based on the first traffic study we noted some issues uh and with the testimony we heard and revised calculations uh I believe those items have been addressed uh we do when we do our reviews we do verify these exting data was collected the time of year was collected the trip generation calculations the the full build volume projections I think our concerns came down to how they were presenting the operations that intersection with first report we heard tonight now we have a more realistic uh depiction of those operations as was testified to and then our last two comments go to uh the delivery disc discussion that was had how are we going to handle share pickups and that was well addressed during the Tess it was touched on that's okay we'll cover its operations so um anything on on a given roadway like orad right each track land has a different level of ABCD whatever um now I I suggested that well if it's DF in One Direction and DC in the other direction that's a DF you know in terms of people trying to actually leverage it it's it's not averaged in any way right we keep we keep the two lanes readings just DED in the analysis and in no case they say well you got a D so that's we don't the the analysis considers each individual movement type so even you know even if we're headed westbound through the analysis correct correct even head westbound it we'll look at that left separately from the through separate from a right TR oh even that yeah sorry you know I had that question I have one question okay when the board's done I did have some more please would you be able to get a dimension from the corner of the proposed retail commercial that's uh yes yeah there to the the 24 in solid line just di mention from that corner to that line to the Stop Bar yeah here can you go to C yeah 219 and the distance from the the Western corner of the twostory wood frame building to that same stock line it's going to be a longer distance yeah no I know I'm just wondering what that distance is still sorry still 58 that's 5 58 yes for mind I'm just looking at it as your coming uh uh West to see what that pinch is going to look like because at that stop at the stop strike there you have all your cars and as you make that turn you have a gap now that I'm used to seeing which is now I know is 8 ft that's going to be shrunk down to 21 ft driveway right so that's but saying that's planter yeah yeah there's there's Shrubbery that's right right along there that that impacts the sight lines as well is your the new building itself the facade the main mass of that building is going to now make that yes 307 ft closer thank you thank you I did have a couple questions of my [Music] own you referred paragraph Le from 9 to 10 it talks about the internal capture credit I thought I understood you to say that that had been taken out of the analysis unless I just heard you earlier tonight that is absolutely correct um and sort of throughout this we we talk about what it is but we also add in small caveat we're not going to take that credit okay it said we're not going to do this I just saw the EXP yeah the first yeah so so you did not utilize internal capture Credit in your analysis in your May 13 2024 revised traffic impact study not withstanding the fact that you had a paragraph discussing it talking about but we not table three if I could read these things better with a different degree I would see that it take it into account corre correct um and then my next question is the next paragraph I believe address is the pass by PR ruction credit which you did take uh and just had of curiosity since we're up to I believe the 11th edition of the ITP it CP Generation Um why don't we go back to Third Edition uh for this passed by creditor was it just explained in the Third Edition that carry forward the 11 Edition two different books two different books say trip generation manual yeah oh manual versus H manual versus handook and neither of which is a part how and Jay have don't have anything to worry about I'm never get no competition um the the uh I have one question any said appropriate ask um the uh we went up to the Su 40 on the uh wheel bases size of trucks for truck uh circulation purposes agress erress and circulation um retail uses particularly restaurants but any retail any of the permitted retail uses that might be uh occupying any portion of the retail this proposed project should be approved uh would it warrant uh or have trucks delivering or serving that are greater than S4 for for this your experience right for this kind of small scale retail restaurant space um when you when you have the dimensional availability to accommodate a tractor trailer often times you get tractor trailers when you don't provide that and you stipulate to your tenants that you know you can't bring a trative trailer here especially when they're you know of this size and character um we don't experience that tractor trailer Delivery they they'll either go somewhere else if they go there they'll make do with small truck correct yeah you know Logistics right if you can use a bigger truck they do I think typically in burville restaurants are using they they get a provisioning company that comes in in Provisions gives them everything they need the restaurant those are typically as high as S3s in that 135 so accommodated sure yes they're not typically going to used tra trailers I agree with what your comment was definely know that restaurants you know because there was dou yeah understood question suggestion could a stipulation be made that relases say no deliv in the traffic trailer we could probably do that Mr Sim make sense it's a spatial restriction our designed standard under the ordinance is actually for the 30 accommodated to 40 they sent comments but I issue with that I are you done I'm good thank I want to toss you a soft this is today there's driveway as you know and the driveway is like don't you dare go on this driveway or S your car or you can't you know don't do this that's very restricted but there is traffic going into I I suspect that the anticipated rate of the usage of the mount ER entrance and exit is equal or less than what's there today in other words I the way it's depicted and the way it's being proposed I don't see any impact on the off situation at Mount Ary road with the backups there's there's no significant additional trips going in and out there already is some you're you're shutting that one down and is is in your opinion is that a reasonable perception that definitely that there's no yeah whether you're looking peak hour or over the course of the day there would be less traffic in and out of a mount hary driver way proposed then exist and even before if the if County puts other restrictions correct so just even Stree flowing both directions your your perception is correct seems to me that that awful situation that we have on road is this is not imping that especially the it's impacting it may yes I can tell you that wasion that was part of the vision of the council not allow access or whether we're right or not I would just say the statistics probably bear that out looked at all the different turns and and I know that's definitely a concern you know okay there's more traffic leaving the site going in and out of the site but it's on more stem Road and then beyond that of course wherever that traffic is going go which which then we lead you into the 10% kind of a thing like what they 1900 trips and we're just adding so end of sofair would a condition also be added that the there would be no passenger vehicles be able to leave the parking lot Mount area yes yeah in terms of in terms of residents Etc going out that door yes entering or exiting the mount AR yes terms of Revenue control can also be a stipulation that there be an emergency activation for that rollup doors so could be emergency exit yes so you're going to hear a little bit more about you know what our what our systems are at least we contemplate in terms of the ability to to buzz somebody in uh electronic apps to to get people to come in on deliveries but and I'm not sure whether we still fire in terms of EMTs yes well yes an emergency accident that's all if you had a fire AB oh yeah absolutely yes like to be able to leave so also talk in your testimony about some of the challenges during peak hour you said that you're waiting for a do response does the applicant have a preference as to way that they control traffic in that circumstance above and beyond what the do may or may not say I guess in in what regard so you mentioned that during traffic out of the main driveway you suggested the B may suggest or state that there being restrict left turns at peak hours does the applican have an opinion on that thing that they wanted to stimulate to above and beyond the OT May out I mean I tend to leave those decisions to the respective um you know entities that own it but if the board you know stipulates the request be made on behalf of the the bureau it it does it does go a little bit further so look I I think if I was living there I would self-regulate myself if I GLE up I'm to go right I'm to go back to Bas reg I'm going about that right I guess what I'm not sure it would make a difference to have a sign there or not because I'm probably going to self-regulate myself anyway and if I go left go left the guys um I don't think it not suggesting somebody else oh it's going to self-regulated that uh left turn lane is backed up all the way to the the taco place of the library you know it's like you're never going to get in you're going right I think I think a left term stipulation might be more on the loading side no for trucks on down no that's that's count for us no we don't care it's not that much traffic no it's not the same thing it's very different um well I feel our traffic problem counts more something it is but this isn't going to mitigate it's not going to be any difference truck you know truck pulling out you know they're not all going to be s40s I mean you they're just not going to be so I concern the the traffic that they could manage would not be done so during peak hours right I think that's the challenge right during 7 to8 window five seven Window Control they're going to control deliveries during those time frames and not necessary I don't that's why I asked question that was self regulating you said people don't want to go in those FS anyway and they clearly can regulate garbage okay I think it'll be fine because I the big deal is it's not the Casual it's not the um Ubers it's it's not the door Dash it's none of those deliveries it's not any of the emergency ACC say it's just these it's a very limited set of trucks and I I really think it'll improve on that side which is awful somebody stopped in front of me yesterday turn St up the whole already waiting three times hello they're KN at that yes obviously I I don't even know how the left hand turn lane would the left hand warning sign would even be mounted you know where you know I guess no left turn during these hours you know odd hours only you know what would it say it's it's a left ter usually it's like no right ter it's really obvious something to think about um any other questions from the board before I open that okay uh if there's any member of the public that has a question for this witness not a comment about the app or comment about this activity but a question for this witness please identify yourself come on down is there an ex and this relates to testimony that's being simp to he Sor your name r yes okay couple of data collection questions um in terms of the crosswalk data the one at Ken fall will call it the one North on Town Road was the police data from that crosswalk for 2023 utilized in your calculations police data no was okay so it wasn't was it collected was it requested no okay it would be available okay um next um you I won't answer but the ambulant access inside should be managed but ensuring ambulances and EMTs could exit does that happen the gate is up once they come in or how does that function covered it yet in the testimony the the architect and the operation staff okay emergency vehicle access police cmts fire any of that stuff okay um okay um and another question in terms of the pedestrians going around the corner where it's extremely tight at the P building we're all familiar with that there is no question about um in terms of your data collection did you measure pedestrians who cut through the Palmer parking lot to basically access the other crosswalk shop right in places north no that that pedestrian cut through is not directly cash okay so there's substantial pedestrian data that might have been missed I wouldn't consider it might have been missed we counts at the at the intersection of model appr okay those pedestrians may have also agre gone onto the other crosswalk that we spoke of you're cutting you're cutting through the Palmer lot existing it's it's unlikely to me that you would make that top rout and then come back to the intersection round the cor but that wouldn't impact the crosswalks no the mid block oh the mid block that we didn't observe very many for actually using that in our in our drone observation okay you might want to I'll just make this suggest or I'll ask a question if you're interested you could access that data to police because that is the normal rout for high schools would you consider that would that's question thank you I'm trying to find the ways to help you know improve the data essentially um okay okay and then um one question as much as for the board um M McQueen thank you for being honest in terms of yeah we will turn right out of there whether we're Shoppers or restaurant it's human nature and we'll head if we live that way or we're headed down south or whatever but um would we have a concern of people who want to head south or west would turn up Church Street and cut through the library parking lot which is already a pedestrian Nightmare and turn left out of the library yeah I I think yes and we're actually we're talking about the library as um additional Parking Solutions already and that signage uh we're talking about a lot of things that could enhance that part and Wesley for that matter you know up there on a 15 M hour Zone because of go church over Wesley out to get some help so yeah if that's human nature Aaron thank you the uh sorry technically address to if you don't sure than uh the uh driveway is a two lane driveway is that correct off of Route 202 one one lane each direction thank you and so when you're measuring your Sidelines you're measuring from behind the crosswalk is that correct so we are measuring uh in accordance with the as show standards and and jdot adopts those same standards um where it's from the travelway of the road but when you have a crosswalk situation um you the driver pulls up and has to has to have a clear line of sight for pedestrians which isn't as long a distance and then can pull up and have a clear line of sight on the roadway I guess I'm trying are is the vehicle in that crosswalk at the time that you're measuring that line of sight so the vehicle is in our in our line of sight measurement it's set back a minimum of 6 and 1 half fet it's a six foot crosswalk so a portion of a vehicle may be in the crosswalk as the line of SE goes with the additional U pedestrians that you know are going to be as a result of the development the residents um do you anticipate the vehicles who are trying to be making those left or right turns into heavy traffic behind that crosswalk as there people walking through and how does that you believe affect the performance of your driveway as as it relates the performance of the drive didn't see a adverse impact or substantial adverse impact to it of course pedestrians crossing the driveway Vehicles need to yield to um the left turn we've talked about extensively that it's a very difficult maneuver and one where you're likely just to turn right the right turn is one where if there are pedestrians in the immediate vicinity you're not going to pull up into that crosswalk that that delay so to speak of pedestrian Crossings is uh captured with in the traffic study um and then you know once that crosswalk is clear then they can proceed to look through uh through the traffic2 I guess going back to Mrs ring Point did you do any modeling or make any type of I guess prediction about how those Vehicles who want to go left but are going right are going to get back to the west or south South 202 or uh in terms of of the different options impact on traffic throughout any of those those those types of options weren't um weren't encapsulated within the traffic study now as there's a number of different routings both all both legal and illegal um but but to that extent a bit bit outside of the the scope and focus of said okay um on uh your testimony for the um delivery drivers Uber Uber those types of things your testimony that they're going to use the um the garage enter as long as they're out within a certain limited period of time they won't P um I don't know if this is you or operations but where where are they parking what what spots are available them for them to par that that's going to be best third to operations thank you I will stipulate though it's going to be whatever spots are open and the convenient location where they're going to deliver we're not we're not having designated Uber e spots uh we're not occupying those spots so as long as it's not a a reserve spot could be in in one of the commercial spot areas which we'll talk about or they'll just pull into a parking spot we'll talk about we'll cover this in that testimony stipulate anything right now uh could I'm sorry uh could you tell me the um when you looked at your your Baseline study uh average number of daily trips in and out was 1900 is that correct in front of the front of sorry um did did you do a calculation of the number of daily trips in and out of the site from either no did not you did not no um do you uh did you do any sort of um analysis regarding number of vehicles relative going out in out 202 M 202 Mor Road versus the M area um our analysis very much focused on the the Morristown Road access for those peak hours that we did study where our trip generation was routed entirely through there to provide a conservative analysis in the peak hour you may get one vehicle in and out the mount are road entrance um it it's not something that moves the needle from Capac City perspective so we opted to take the conservative approach and model it all at so your Baseline is entirely focused on as a conservative measure yes just based on the types of vehicles and who's able to go in and out of each location thank you um is is it possible your your measuring software to to give an exact distance from the uh from the driveway to that uh this crosswalk um yeah of course from I guess from which point I guess from the yeah start start here the 28 29 feet proximately okay thank you Mr chairman we did do the baing calculations for the retail and restios it's about 370 two-way trips a day two-way trip yeah in hour 37 toal so okay not yeah 370 is total or 370 round trip 37 two-way trips that's all entering plus exiting the day in total of the total total Tri is I have a one more question your report is the original report is dat is September 26 2023 were you involved were you previously involved in this application in in what respect planning it uh I was I was involved in the traffic study report preparation the the early Redevelopment plan stages I was not personally involved or was St who made the decision to have one driveway on 202 I I don't know the answer to that question aside aside from the fact that the the lot conformance with NJ doot wouldn't permit a second access point but I what's in the um Redevelopment plan and how that language was adopted I'm not sure any other questions from the public Mar over seven shad when you were looking uh in your analysis and when you were talking before about the left hand turns the right hand terms down at Walgreens where there's one wens this one retail establishment you cannot make a left from 202 into the into two wall rings and you cannot exit one to 20 or2 it has to be on the side road why did you or why was there immediate move to just one Lane for entering and exiting here for regular traffic of course so so part of it is to reduce the amount of distance that any pedestrian is walking across the driveway um where where you you know you're walking across it's it's a shorter distance across a vehicular path of travel and it's only the one in one out versus you know having a side by side left and right um also if you have a side by side left right what ends up happening is you have two vehicles that are jockeying for position to try and see in an area that's already um tight with site lines especially when you're looking to your La my conern my concern was with the traffic impact of people making left hand turn from 202 to get in they're going to have to stop to wait for traffic me the direction which will back it up and people coming out either make a right hand turn or they into the bank and try to come out with do something like that which adds to more congestion the the L question isn't that correct isn't that correct well I think that the the left turn in especially in those peak hours you're sitting in the queue of traffic as it progresses um you can't progress so you're making a left hand turn move you you have to wait for the other traffic to come don't you and then when there's a break there then you can turn in the meantime everybody else has to sit behind you that's correct and and that's a existing condition of Route 202 um you know with with the one lane of travel in each Direction what we don't want to do is place that traffic over to the side streets not Mara it's been the intent all along to uh to not have vehicular traffic or Passenger cars use that driveway because of how close it is the intersection the backups that are on that area and so this provides um a much better design solution even if you occasionally are waiting behind someone to make the left turn will that impact uh traffic for instance at that hour when people are trying to get into the high school back up the traffic that's backed up waiting for somebody to make left turn in I think especially at the the high school periods there's not going to be a high volume of those wet turns into the site because you no I mean into Church Street perhaps it wasn't oh I'm sorry um quite frankly the the impacts down in Church Street I from from this this development of those turning movements I I don't think' be adversely you don't think the traffic will back up through that intersection no not with the volumes that we're proposing and we're not concerned about the high school students trying to go through that traffic to get up to school for their parents and of course we're concerned about pedestrian Crossings and and pedestrian travel as part of any traffic analysis or study or design um but the the project layout a negative would you consider this a more congested and a denser population in terms of businesses and their residential uh units uh heavier than there is down by other traffic F Towns at w where where you have shoulders you have less traffic and you have limited limited access no access out on to to I think this area is is much more downtown oriented um than that area is in terms of the walkability the way the buildings have zero setback all of those items that are more pedestrian Focus as opposed to vehicular focus with the shoulders and you know those side street tur movements in the light am I understanding correctly saying that is less congested because L problems than this area does um I I'm saying that this area is designed much differently in terms of how traffic can sorry this area is designed like much much differently thank you um as it relates to how traffic can flow through it it's more congested and I I don't have those those types of queuing okay thank you Washington cot Road speaking as environmentalist um I'd like to ask you what kinds of studies what you know about the additional bource that'll be in Q's that will be in our Center for town do you do that does anyone or there other studies I'm very concerned about all the additional exhaust from the additional units and all the cues I I've been living here for over half a century so I know the differences and I know what it's like in these mind your question is is has has anyone else correct correct we've not conducted any know exhaust study or idling study um as it relates this application okay taking off my Environmental commission uh and as a resident and since we talked a lot about cross birds and since I've stopped for track things Crossing from high school and I know about the other Crossroads um so are there any studies are there any studies that um are concerned about when I I think I heard you say you might remove that crossw because you want people at the lights at the intersection no no that that's not that's not proposed or okay so you will keep those um in the same positions they are what I'm worried about is there a possibility of additional JW walking all along as opposed to if they're separating their from the truck entrance if pedestrians are separating might be a problem with additional jaywalking along the whole strip of that now we're not relocating the crosswalks and just by let's just say if you're keeping let him answer finish answer then ask the next we're keeping the crosswalks that are crossing Morristown Road and after the traffic signal all of those stay right where they are what's a benefit here is the existing sidewalk infrastructure especially at that Southeast corner you can't walk through there P the signal pole without stepping under the rope and so what this development poses much wider sidewalk infrastructure much more accommodating those pedestrians and because of that I would actually think that no there would be less illegal Crossing uh because of actual improved pedestrian infrastructure through this area okay I heard you say this uh what I wondering is if the um access on 202 for for the trucks is closer to that walkway is that more of a problem there's no trucks at this ACC that cross there entrance coming yeah this is an entrance for passenger vehicles did they're not concerned that that's closer to the no I'm not okay did you testify um that um it actually makes sense that have crosswalks closer to intersections it's like correct yeah where that's why we commonly see good design principles are the crossb should like where it is probably isn't doesn't conform to that theory it should either be right at your driveway essentially or it should be up at Church Street right what where it is is what you typically see from from a design perspective is crosswalk at an intersection because that meets the motorist expectations okay it's you know mid block crosses are very helpful for crossing streets where there are not those intersections for a great distance where we have that situation here um but they're less expected by motorists and so you get less compliance of stopping for pedestrians things like that is it your testimony that you would that to Church Street no I would I think that having those yeah have the traffic patterns right but Crossing cross it's gon to go up Church Street that might not be yeah it's already one at church they may just be trying to cross the street to get to one of the businesses directly across is that get to the library parking lot ch so there's a there's a crosswalk two or two at church the okay all right any other questions from the public hi Diane GRE 15 old with rose um I'm wondering if there has been any study or have you looked at uh traffic impacts on surr rounding um streets to the downtown area uh because of the additional traffic during the downtown people are going to go U cut through side streets and that's going to have an impact on traffic going on all the side streets um to the other side of town people were playing and what's happening now because I do it I cut through I won't go through the H town too much traffic I cut all the way through I go down High View go down Mullins and it's going to increase the traffic on those side streets and has anybody looked at or anticipated that as a problem no we not done a study to try and estimate any sort of diversion of traffic outside streets as a result of the the traffic from this project do you anticipate that that be more of a problem than is now I know that it's being done everyone I know on one side of town comes through they don't go through town does have to be question the comments later okay um would you anticipate that to be a problem in the future as a result result of this development now thank you any other questions from the public any other questions [Music] from okay all right we take a break uh minute break until thank you chair a court reporter needs fingers Denise I know this is department but I have an idea just for the general it system in here we have one projector right now be split two proor one there save everybody's onon that split it get another Pro SC theyed it yeah yeah moving it further away every there already I just look at driveway so I agree that's nether but I do think that that's different than just know so yes scho nice e e e thank you all right chairman we're ready to roll uh John wcala back on the record again and uh we are now offering Kevin Smith our project architect I will remind him he's still under oath Mr Smith your credentials are still in good standing licensed are protect Etc in the state of New in the state of New Jersey thank you very much the great state of New Jersey the great state thank you I'll you with r anyway I just it's nice to see you all again tonight after a period of time I wanted to start actually with a new image that we have produced and I just try I think we're up to exhibit 85 that was my note Steve I believe that's correct okay thank you Denise so I just trying to show some of the things that we are trying to do with this with this project and also explain a little bit there's been a lot of discussion about you know what's at what level so this this is a view superimposed uh on an actual photograph of all square that was taken last last week um with the Palmer building on the right and the entrance piece to the new building um and if you look closely you can see that there's quite a lot of gray changes you work your way down Morristown Road to the corner of Mount Ary um and another thing that you can see um is the this very dark Arch which is the entrance to the parking so that's the pedestrian entrance to the parking that right in the cour in the corner the courtyard adjacent to the entrance new entrance to the Palmer building um it shows also some of our intentions to use the Palmer building as a kind of you know I Jewel box or something a reference to um uh to Old Bernardsville and that as we've cut off the the segment that's on the right side or the West Side to really open that up so there's the amount of space that has sidewalk or terrorist and window um to really maximize the revitalization of and pedestrian experience all along uh both that stretch down Mount Mary and all along moristown road so I just thought it was helpful to kind of see this it doesn't show as well in the two-dimensional elevations and the plans are kind of confusing so I want you to see that first before I go in and talk about some of the things that we have done on changes to the to the FL plans do um here there so I see the entrance next to the other Arch to its left is is really a decorative thing it goes into the lower the lower retail the lower retail exactly right and that if we did look at the plans earlier the the retail elevations follow to some extent the street as it moves up um from this with the big arch that's the entrance is at the elevation 408 that is the was defined in the Redevelopment plan as a as the elevation standard for that that's the actually Redevelopment grade it is the act actual curb elevation right at that point it goes up to an elevation of 411 when you get close to the Masonic lodge and then swings around it's about 402 as you come around the corner of Mount AR so the other thing to to note that the the fourth floor becomes a fullon roof with the Dormer so we able to step the the mass down as you as you move around the corner so with your permission it'll keep going just keep going all architectural features that you show here the Dormers the the strip canvas are all part of the plan that's not just yeah yeah no that they they exist in the elevations and in in some measure of detail renderings renderings do show how they actually feel so that's why we why we do that and this is also consistent with the material choices the stone at the base and the shingle treatment with there's a little sweep at the at the bottom of the shingles above the stone the the the pores and which is particularly important we must have some a little bit of portraits to have some life of the residents both visible on the on fot Square I think that is also gives some energy to it and be able to see through at that one spot into the courtyard and we're also showing the uh the awnings uh that are on your both Street frontages correct Mr Smith they are those and is that accurate as reflected on the architectural plans and know we're going to look Flor plan soon correct and the awnings and those treatments we originally when we filed the application we had design waivers in that regard uh but everything has been corrected so we don't actually have any his ey waivers placement location we have the the required height to the bottom of the they they don't go over the property longer I think on the county side do if if the county were to take that La they they would they would they would project to what have they're requiring a dedication and it's Our intention to alert the county to that it's actually on the plans themselves if the county has an issue we'll remove the awnings but we don't expect that Mr the um I have a question the arch on the left hand side uh that's a retail space there yeah um what's the uh floor elevation in that retail space the retail space is 405 so it's about five feet above that Plaza and would that actually be a window so be a window but it would be low I mean it would be low in the inter interior space but from the outside you'd be looking up looking up we imagine that it's more of a decorative feature we imagine it's a a place to right dis okay so move on I will go to the the uninteresting portions of the building downstairs this is this is the second uh lower level these if you can just give us the last revised date and these were these are 426 everything 42 and she great as as submitted more than 10 days in advance night correct that is correct Market is an exib so this does show some of the things that had been asked for a really a really clear definition of the parking spaces and the structure they are all the regular required 9 by 18 space exclusive of the allotment of the 18inch column that's not included in that and that there a 24 24 foot Drive aisle and we have adjusted the elevations um you'll not a slight change to the left side that allows us to keep the uh the four of the upper Flor level down a little bit to get the the Headroom that Mr chairman mentioned the 14t required Headroom for the uh the 13 fo6 truck on the on the floor below so we kind of moved all those moved all those things around um go to the next no no well do you want back up you have questions or you want to go through these have questions on yeah we can go back and I I think it's better two things together okay yeah happy to answer questions when you want but I think it's easier to see the two parking plans together so this is the upper parking plan it's a little bit higher where you come in from the mortown road parking entrance sheet this is sheet a11 also same revision date and you will U note that we we have the two the two places for a the Su 40 uh trucks the rollup door that John mentioned uh earlier and that that whole Zone where is either under the building where we have extra Headroom or under the that end of the courtyard we have allowed for 14 ft clear at every point we still also have a bit of slope up so that we can provide a Ada accessible route to the the the archway I pointed out John point it's very good yeah that's the entrance that's the key right so that's a grade you have to come down a ramp about two and a half fet to get into the to the you go sideways into the into the garage and and you said there was 88 in you said there was 88 inine those are yeah so there is an there are two ada8 spots that are associated with that portion ramping Etc compant into a ramp yeah and those and that we've also um shown a a service elevator that can serve all the retail spaces and also provide a backway when we get to the the first floor plan into the easternmost uh retail space so they are able to take their trash or deliveries down and move to a central uh retail trash Zone perhaps if we zoom in on that corner um there's a the retail trash which has an entrance from the inside that can either be loaded or unloaded from within the garage or if it is preferable you can wheel things out out there's a door a pair of doors that allow you to get out onto the street um there was talk about uh exit there is an exit through the through um the stair so you can you can go and provide fire exit from that we can also provide for in an emergency for emergency vehicles we could um in operations can operate the the rollup door to get a vehicle out the key on that exit is that it is through the entire structure that's par well it's it's going to be um fire arm alarm and you're pointing out that this is where you would exit either from L2 from the lower level or from the upper levels this is where you this is where you come down yeah for those emergency stairs but it's also the it's from this from this corner but it's not access so in other words it's just emergency it's just emergency and I think from a security point of view we would prefer it not to be accessible and and we also don't want to encourage someone who's making a quick delivery to be standing there we want to always want them to take the smaller Vehicles into the main garage great so that we I think we have done a lot to to work these out there's a slate we have widened the entrance which was shown in um John's the vehicle turning movements and the entrance on the on the east side next to the Bic Lodge and have Prov Ed more openings so that there's a little bit of white and additional ventilation along that ramp that leads up to moris toown Road thank you and then at the lower corner um we have allowed a place which we imagine is is a good place to put the Transformer and there's an electrical room so that's the electrical service entry for the building um at that well the the South West corner of the site and that's electrical W for the main switch gear and we get to the roof that the the generator is directly on on top of that you said the dirty T Transformer over um if there's a hot box that's required on that corner you stipulate to find aesthetic ways to hide it yes we want this to be an aesthetic feature the stone and made like proper yeah we we understand and we will do whatever we have to Shield it conceal it understood we try to make that feature which you'll see later that whole extension which is the entrance to the garage it's it's Stone all the way up actually an aesthetic feature the gamble roof at the top which we'll get to we get any any other I think that's that's it there is the the me space is the complicated one so I have lots of questions on each one of the CL but I want to let you we'll come detail okay onward to the main level plan a12 a12 same date this is so we've noted that we have extended the retail Frontage along the entire morrestown Avenue um face and moved the fitness center and because of the Headroom we have taken the little tail which is labeled club club room and made that accessible from the courtyard and to the residence and not a portion of the of the retail space um in order to provide for that 14ot clearance it has to be at higher elevation which is that of the courtyard and not accessible from the well the retail space and you will note in detail that little elevator that exits um just point that out you would point that out the little service elevator has that purple Corridor um which would allow the the tenant of the eastern most um retail space to have a little back door see carefully uh hidden there next to the security gates in the in the quarter um also minor changes is that there is a a a portion of the of the courtyard um directly to the left of that club room it's up up another couple of feet in order to get the Headroom underneath um for for for the trucks it's only accessible from the retail commerci yeah the the portion the portion that's labeled 4113 is accessible from the rest of the courtyard that portion um that has a was a a foot and a half higher is accessible from the second level of the Palmer building which and not just wonder and not the no the club room we really is is case was an admission right that has an exit it has a an entrance that you see on that little walkway from the main axis of the of the courtyard uh just for the public can you point out the entrance nor and okay yeah so the main entrance is where it says gate and that that's has a a gentle slope from that elevation 408 up to Elevation 410 over about 550 56 feet um and gets you to a a cross AIS that leads either to to that service corner or into the residential Lobby and then there is an exit stair because that Court Courtyard will be in some will have a greater occupancy than a single way out would permit there's an exterior exit that leads down with a gate to that area is that marked under I understand what you said it's marked there it is yeah okay exterior which is really a gate and it's at the floor four level below um there are also more clearly defined little gardens that come off of each of the units on the on the south bar and a little bit on the Eastern bar give a little bit of privacy to those to those units from the courtyard and as we move up to the building and you'll see again the the red line just just for the is is that Assumption of the inlarge right of way um we have taken at it's I guess the most conservative approach along the the the the northern piece of it is probably a little bit clear we we've taken it at the it's possibly greatest extent one other little thing where it says OTB which is opened below the white corner here you go is in order to get the full headro through the whole length of the slight ramp that it takes to get down to the from from area which is fairly low but it's not quite low enough so we can't have a unit on top of that it's not off track yes only Architects like that and then up a couple of four up the next four level and go back to the Flor plans there you see fit good is becomes a standard um but you will note that in order to accommodate the the right of way we have chopped a little bit more out of the Palmer building and we have made that extension some kind of tail and a portion of the main area of the building shorter so we've lost some square footage in order to make sure that we have the full right way uh that the county may want um and is in their map along that area that's for the One V is that's right yeah be two bedroom there were two bedrooms before and at the Eastern side where we had had because we had lost some space we had two two bedroom apartments or on that Eastern face that looks at the side of the Masonic Lodge there are shown as as three one bedrooms these guys fourth floor 104 second second and third are identical okay in stay still so the there is no apartment at that far end of with the extension that that gets add that space gets added to its to its neighbor um which remains a two-bedroom because that that piece is really only three stories told and the rest of it we're losing little spaces in the roofs and there different units up there especially at the top here um which you saw from that exterior view that really resolves to a full full sloping uh roof so that the Eve is at the third level and there's just a smaller a small Dormer that faces West and that's F on the roof plan the next one we've clarified what those roof deck conditions are they really are wells the have a significant the Eve is 6 foot above the walking surface or the not the the ridge rather is over 6 feet above 6' 7 I think above the walking surface and we're able to get little uh circular stairs that come from the units below only three units get get that space and that's a the roof de that's the green area is the green area around a small deck literally we're Hing to have a small green roof and a and a a wood or simulated wood uh decking that allows a nice place for those people to Grass area good green roof tray tray systems okay green pain green pain can you explain the white block which we've been referring to as the tower I don't remember seeing any I I know uh visually on the elevation it's very disturbing but I'd like to know what that is um it really is a way in in our mind resolving the the way those two roofs come together yeah up here but it's very awkward in the elevation North the north elevation and outer character that one till we get to the elevation the elevations you know take take everything under ad treat or find find another solution to that I I don't think it's absolutely necessary it was it was the first solution we had of coming coming taking these very steep steep roots and bring in together um at the other end we mentioned there's a the emergency generator um so that gives is this a standby generator or an emergency generator there is a difference a standby generator like runs off Natural Gas it's it's it runs off Natural Gas stand an emergency generator runs off propane or diesel or gas so it's a standby J it's yes and in this jurisdiction you're allowed to use natural gas as your as an emergency generator to to to handle Life Safety I'm just saying just deter well stand by do you know there'll be some question as to the capacity what percentage of the circuits you expect to support as with any configuration that may whoever is supposed to answer that cover that later you're just finding the spot right and that spot is a good one from a run run to the electrical point of view so Mr chairman extend no no no it's no new wi this all right okay and what else about this anything clearly from the Northeast unit the uh utilities are running from that Northeast unit um sorry Northwest unit I sorry over to one of these U mechanical units it's on Ro these are these are the these represent the mechanical right hbac they're within the runs that you're allowed for you're not going to put any HCS and the the people who have those whiff decks would not like that we're we're confident we have enough enough space to do that and they're within the runs that you're allowed for the refrigerant lines and of course the retail too they would be using they use the same they'll use the same thing so let's identify just what sheet we're on a 200 the building elevation same same plan date same revision date yes that shows the no no significant you know no changes really to this North elevation no the tower we we will note we we note note the tower and your desire to remove it and we can take that under I there's there's figure it out there is a way to do that any questions or anything to the top one I think this answer is my question which is it looks like at the right side of the larger building it looks like it does below into the L1 space build yeah it continues to set step down so if you look at the pl right it goes down that that that elevation is lower than the other ones so you're not really getting L very low that me space will have a very low headro you testify to you know that the courtyard the uh eating area that's elevated that you said is for the second floor yes that that that is that is is a mistake it is up it is up higher than that or whatever Direction no no it is it's it it needs to be higher in order possible this just didn't get like there's also you've made it higher because there's a doorway there now yeah we moved we just didn't do it sorry so this will shift that'll be higher and then of course the doorway will then have enough room to get into the l space tall tall people will be able to do that um chimneys are these decorative chimneys there decorative they're decorative right the one on the right actually serves as the you the the stair the spiral stair into that top unit oh I see it's like the you get it is the top of the stair spiral stairs I see um suggestion for the applicant that which I brought it briefly last time but I fully expect in order to Maxim revenue for this project you will be wanting to put cellular towers on the top of the building and occurs to me you could design your decorative uh Chimneys in a way to enclose a cellular installation so it's still look pretty still have the height things but instead of a big white box or something like we have yeah down the road you would have that and you'd have Revenue opportunity for the lease and and do the we have done that but I have done it in the past you may want to add a foot to the change or do something or it it may need to be a little wider Mr can it be treated the same way as a do on the right side of the building what so the area the left the tower what we call the tower element on the left yeah I think it will be treated like like two rubs coming together happy to change that Mr chairman may ask one question about the power elements the uh any Thunder but there's a 20% hard allowance and will the applics is the application confir that they will comply there with yes we we will definitely comply there with and I don't even think it will be a factor if we make some of the modifications that uh Mr Smith is is talking about now that's I've been suggested by the chairman so for clarification no deviation no no deviation from the percentage and I think we're good with the chimneys you know those are allowed as a architectural decorative elements and it would be they would also be compliant Mr or they give you sort of bonus a little bit correct and John that's fine right a decorative cheny I mean real chimneys there's some real concerns but these are not real [Music] [Music] chimneys yeah that's all right next elevation and this is the Mount Frontage correct so that's the entrance with its height to get to the truck and loading entrance that whole element is is Stone all the way up but as I noted the top floor is not really occupiable other than there's a bedroom that oh ellip elliptical window have you decided I think there's 40 feet to the gate will the intern internals of that tunnel be the same matching Stone we'd like to it's certainly the first 10 feet in is the where is the is it it's higher than it needs to be it's it's about where that dash line the whole WID is 14t corre can you can you scroll right a little bit there I don't see the exit maybe it's on the it's on the side which that's where the door stairs the stairs the stairs exit right there and there's a pair of double doors into the electrical gate the stairs down is it it is in my eye there's an elevation from that Arch feature to the I guess the right side of the building the elevation goes up by several feet along the road there there guessing yes the low point is actually where the loading is and then it starts sloping up the hill up as you go go across the railroad tracks you're sling back up I'm assuming that's the existing bra that's the road and Mr Smith the one thing I do want to point out we're obviously showing this we are not showing any of the landscaping that's along the frontage but we do have Landscaping that is proposed in that right corner correct right and a tree on the to the left in front of the double doors there's meant to be we have not put the landscaping or Street trees and these elevations for reasons of clarity so you all can see what the the architecture is like Mr chairman we may be I recall correctly at the point where the motion might be appropriate to EXT I'm not we get close and then we extend right and we're extending to we don't know just I thought the liit was 11 we started 11 yeah I'm try it was 10:30 no I made when you said it it was it was uh 10 minutes shy at 10:30 that's why I thought he was telling you you you were 40 minutes too early I'm only 30 minutes too early I ass for your head do you have an architectural rendering with the Landscaping in place we don't we have that in the in the plans but and then the the remaining elevations are I think and and Kevin just correct me if I'm wrong uh we actually did change the roof lines here for the gamber or is that correct that is yes just point that out that a comment yeah I think he had a different impression of where the gamble would be like the back gamble right it's kind of like don't you changed all this right you know oh yeah I just wanted to hit on on some of the changes from what we first the point is it's lower closer yeah we we did lower the whole thing no no I know something on Con elev the East Elevation with the wider entrance to the garage so this is next to this is the driveway I'm looking through the and is this now the correct pitch yes it's steeper and and it becomes flat and those three doors there are those are really they're graes provide light and ventilation into the into that portion of the barage which we always had on the south side but now have on the seast side as well and just to provide a little bit of extra turning movement and as well as a a you know pedestrian access in an emergency we widen that whole opening into the into the into the parking is that green section on the right and inset like or is it a yes no it extends it extends about six inches and then above it there are two in slightly inset Val but it extending into the driveway it does but not far we we have a space space there right we we move the driveway away so that there's a little little Zone that is and and you're not not two but to the right to the left there would be your little Shrubbery area correct and that you know if you really drew that elevation it would keep going it's at a it's at an angle it' be somewhat more of it than it gets cut cut off uh I think we'll look at extending just cutting off more to get rid of the tower moving that Gable over the right and then this is the this is the South [Music] elevation which has those graded openings into the garage yeah there's a lot park so South now looking from the train tracks same materials all around same materials all the way around stone at the base right a shingle a cementitious shingle for longevity you have that in it there's an exhibit with those materials is there any maintenance re there's not too much setb yeah no which is why we're suggesting these kind of material so we're going to go through this in detail on the I don't think that's a good enough answer so we'll we'll come to that when we go far by floor okay should we go back to floor plans uh is there any other signage signage locations and Lighting you just touch on the lighting you doing I mean a very limited type of w Wisconsin's a goose neck light and then there's a ceiling light in the in the porch elements sheet yeah there is the next there's one that had so yeah you just go through the material next was this also previously this has beened for a while so what is the [Music] number2 think fairly fairly straight forward the rubble Rubble Zone do well to to match as close as possible to other examples that exist here in the center of Burnsville a fiber cement low mainten shingle metal windows that really represent you know that really replicate historic um wood sash wood sash windows with simulated divided lights exterior shutters there are composite material and then an asphalt shingle roof and thin brick sh chimneys they really and when it comes to uh window cleaning Etc type of windows they're all done inside sorry they're operable there be a tilt tilt feature for clean ready for some for plans well I'm we're not going to that's a problem because we're going to have to go through a lot of discussion on the various Flores um so we're clearly not going to get to it I got an add a comp here for the next meeting Sor I won't be present at the next meeting the next meeting opport um yeah keep going little a lot okay let's go to the bottom floor the first thing I first of all I want people understand how this circulation works because we really didn't go through that and people should understand that you're from that Center trapo you're driving down a r onto a mean Flor around follow the thing down a ramp ramp down another ramp until you're finally getting to the the bot bottom and just important people understand that's how it works so um the first comment I have is an opportunity I think because we can get more space and that is in the upper right hand corner those stairs which are the stairs that the E stairs from the two parking levels to the street that's their purpose if you reoriented that you could pick up space other words you kind of got an empty corner there that's not really being used so if you pivoted it just think about have but think about pivoting it because it would give you more space it would give you more space on your ground floor for whatever purpose you wanted because that's where the exit you know the the exit all is so consider that um it's obviously not an elevator so it's not something with wheelchair which is okay the other thing people should realize it's obvious to you that the mezzanine level which is everything at the top there has the Ada spaces and they have access to the elevators which are on the this little mezanine level um and that's great so they're in the right spot what are the Gres the percentages six six six and a half% okay yeah I think you've had some challenges then you adapt it you know if you split some of the ramps to we we've ACH are able to achieve 11 ft between J everywhere clear you had spend time so let's look at the lower left hand corner and what do you say there secure bicycle storage could youve picked I'm going to be nasty here had you have picked a worse spot for secure bicycle storage than that location do you bicycle if if I'm bicycling and I'm coming in off the street hell I'm going to go down that driveway and I'm certainly not likely to go through that ll1 door and then navigate all around this place to put my bicycle storage there and of course you can't charge it there so you just can't my opinion there are better places for the Bic much better alternative now when I first looked at it I thought H maybe on ll1 you've got some onus space right by the driveway so if we were going to make people pedal up and down that driveway there's some space right there at the gate which you could have used this ex St a better choice in my opinion use the courtyard figure out a way where people can leave their Lobby go out in the courtyard get on their bike and go through the gate has to you know be a you got longer long things have to go through that Gateway so bike could be F you then have the opportunity to charge the bikes there and the people that are in these apartments are going to have ebikes and if got a lot of opportunity where you might want to put it but I would put bicycle you can have other bicycle storage too you can have longm but short term you want it's it's a you know Rel secure it they can take you don't want taking batteries into their Apartments that's going to be against the rules so ideally you want the charger right there you want this to be a premium building offering so that's just positive feedback make it better um what are those service and the other we're going to these places for a lot of stuff Water Service entries gas service entry going to need tanks for the sprinklers you do know you have to do 20 minute springler right yeah not 10 20 you so minut uh so the point here is you roughed it in and you just set we just know we're going to have to put stuff to house and it's now residential storage now the elevator here there is an elevator here right that's a service elevator a service elevator and that's um available to the tenants the tenants they don't have to do special fuzzy things or anything with your I the intention is not to because of the key carded key carded for the also so it provides access to that package that's on floor we haven't really gone into operations at all because there's a line between there's a blend between you and operation right so um okay uh I think that was all I had about this for because this is the lower level and this is expected to be all tenant Mr chairman if I could before we get off of this this floor sure I didn't and I know that Bob bry's letter he had a number of architectural comments and I'm sure eventually we will get through them but my question on this floor goes to that lower left hand corner of the South um West corner of the building it looks like the building is right up on the property you can't see it you got the label right the top but if you go all the way up to the top your roof overhangs into to the transit right so I don't I don't know we got to get to it but Point noted that the I don't know how you can do that they can't so we're going to cover that and then on this floor obviously you're going to have a footing how far below grade is the footing in that corner and construction methods and so right that's exactly where I'm going I mean how far great are you on the proper how do you excavate that does the footing extend beyond the wall it extends Beyond the Wall at all it's off the proper right yeah and if it's down 10 ft then you've got to dig to be an asymmetrical footing but yeah but some somehow you've got to do that I I want to make sure that you are right on make sure we have the thickness of the wall and some some offset for a the roof overhangs are pretty small right right they they are very big but still along that area you have to apply to the exterior facade treatments the building and you won't be on the property to do that you get further away you can probably put on some scaffolding or something but that corner is a concern to me because yeah I don't it looks like it's very difficult to try to work because you got a very steep slope down the tracks You' got high voltage power lines in there you've got separations you have to keep so it's understood um sorry so we're kind of doing floor by floor and obviously a comment on it is there are there any comments on this floor um the elevators themselves what's the the inside dimension of the elevators with all the Emergency Services both you know and turning radius of people in it that so I just want to confirm here so if I'm parking if I'm the Unlucky person who has the parking space all the way at the end in the upper left hand corner the left hand corner I'm basically getting out of my car I'm going to walk uh level right basically down to the Sou then I'm going to walk up a little I think there's a little and then I'm going to walk up another ramp as I go up and then I'm going to hit that elevator correct and then that's how I get into or you could use the you could use the Serv Point that's [Music] right all right cool um I think we can go to the next on this one once again the thought of rotating the upper right corner just get some space and this thing the interesting feature is you drive into the driveway coming down the driveway they going to go through some kind of a g you know described and you have the option of taking a sharp right up a ramp to the elevators um and I believe this is where we'll get into the operational aspects of U uh V car delivery deliveries and pick things like that um but just so people know that black line is important there that one right above the elevators that's a wall right it is separating you from what we looked at down below we looked at the mezanine and you remember those 88 places so when you come in back if you're coming back in the driveway and you kind of go along the South there's a ramp in the center of the drawing there's a ramp down to lower levels to the mezzanine and then from the Meine goes to levels so the key around this is this is where we will want explicit discussions about retail versus residential and visitor parking operations discussion it seems like there's a lot of parking on the dead end well it's not so dead because what I fully expect you to tell us is your intent was everything on the west side and know that aisle that's retail and um there may be a few spaces on the south wall that are retail but that retail will kind of continue down the ram to get your 30 spaces or something and then at some point you may or may not want to think about a gate or something that separates retail from the Heartland you know everybody else just there's an opportunity there potentially to have some type of barrier that you should so it's not not being no we understand chairman it's something we've talked about we don't actually anticipate the need for that to have a gat separation candidly if somebody comes into the will be n oh sorry okay uh the other aspect of this and it gets into operations is this trash room and I think what you're saying is the per a big purpose of the elevator up in the retail area is to carry trash containers down to this level to wield them through here and over into the retail trash Ro is that your yes anticipated operations and if on retail on the Eastern side of the Northeast you're going to roll it across the halfway into the same elevator and down into the ril trash okay um think that we have your me um and now is it it's me service and then there's is there retail storage really there just just in that little box where get we have and that you've added that is that included as part of retail retail store okay what is the gross square footage of retail 9450 But it includes that 400 square ft is that part of ril no it's general for the it's general for the building now the Palmer building that's essentially on ground level right I mean where you see retail that's commercial that's it's ground that's ground level so scroll down a bit I want to talk about trash so in the various depictions we've seen you've depicted two Trash shoes yeah is that true are there two trash what do you envision going into each of the two trash Recycling and trash garbage garbage garbage in a bag goes into one shoot right and everything else goes in so cardboard are you going to let them put cardboard in that SLE string no what have you done well you got Amazon deliveries you're have a ton of cardboard in other buildings they have it's it's a single straight card okay so then but we have a room we could we could do a general collection wor about it clogging out and we also and one of the reasons for having package there as well so is deliver unpacking just thinking through what you want to do it's your building you operate other buildings you have to know what work really think about what works and also as they said what's the county expect now you can get a trash over who just isn't going to Care he's just going to take everything out of here so yeah it's in a recycle bag goes in the same thing you know uh but I don't know what the restrictions are you know from what the county will tell you certainly work it out and obviously we'll probably waste all our here so well that's the T the thing that tend to well segreg we don't care um if you do try to conform to County then they have garbage which they don't they have basically paper and cardboard and then they have all of the aluminum and I'm do you expect people to put them in bags and drop them in the shoot or they just going to throw stuff down the shoot I I don't know what your building uh processes are I know it's your AR it's operations some of these would be like this but it's a lot easier to have a third shoot if you're doing it now as opposed there's room for it to be or some other process um we are getting close um does anyone have any other comments this [Music] FL how many how much more time is there there's a lot more so the good news is they get to to hear it and some of these are just really you know hopefully constructive to make it a better place yeah and you'll have the chance to operate 1130 all in favor anyos okay we're extended um does anyone else like I said have any concern about this I have one other concern about the trash then then that has to do with and well of course Sean and have asked him a little bit about it but the transparency aspect of when we have a street skate you know it's clearly as you know there's a door there you're going to put a tree there it's clearly from this perspective it's ground level from this perspective right okay and and ground level we're supposed to have transparency rules and um why don't we go to that elevation if we could because we're talking about the mounty Road out there you got it right there so that's exactly what we're looking at and and I I understand what you're saying chairman so we do have we do have a percentage requirement obviously the Palmer building I believe meets your your ordinance requirement anyway as it is to as to demonstration honestly the I will say this that right corner uh we think we have nice Stone there we're going to have landscape thing that is also in there rules I get that I think we actually satisfy the rules but if the board thinks it's important that we flop another you know window or one or more windows into that stone covering that's going to be beond Landscaping we'll we'll certainly take your advice on that if it's necessary on it to whatever it is I like Stone the transparency issue transparency issue is really the focal point of the Palmer building front along the uh marown road that that segment is kind of separated out from the building its own element and and I you're comfortablecomfortable you're willing you say we should accept my recommendation would be to accept it unless the board objects to it it may need some relief but I think the aesthetic works better that's just my opinion ier those decisions to board I'm comfortable with you have the doorway there that's recessed in the gate I mean there's there is openness there and it's it's multifaceted I mean it's not one large building on the right side it's actually segment that's I I think the key is that's I think the key is to identify what it theoretically should be correct and and then to say okay we Rel from this and with whatever pointed it out while we discussed it because the technical application of code but I think there's excep situation here where mitigating factors yeah good you come great words optimization mitigating Mr chairman just for clarification so at some point we'll have the magnitude of deviation on the translucency or transparency requirement from Mr Z perhaps so that we can quantify it demoralize it the board get rule on that deviation correct yeah I mean the archway count as transparency no because if you read the plan it's interesting that you rais that you read the plan it's a measur of the windows on Windows and windows on the doors the area on on so it's again technical application correct that that it's 15% 15 and by the way 20% requirement for the commercial site I would consider that 15% that's the residential on what resal resal okay so to the extent there is a deviation not it I think if you did the map we might problem work out let's just agree to do the map ande to and and then the board can make the decision about whether it's 50% the requirement there at 11 you know might to make the window next to the AR the and that's take the assumption that it is some percentage below can we have two rendering one that meets it one that is that way we can choose what is red sure also superimpose landcaping there too so you can see it on the look at a site plan actually you look at our that corner rendering you can sort of see Landscaping there but probably better if we just superimpose that there and there is a railing on top of the TR right that that is a railing right protecting the courtyard yes so you can't fall um the only other there's L place I want to point out your uh Southeast corner shers and uh also your uh the room next to it which I said could have been maybe the bicycle storage you know if you wanted to make them go up and down the driveway if you if further discussions which we going to get into with the next page say uh you know this because like giving you this stuff but this is developable land this could be building potentially and in order if we end up condensing you or PR pressure and you from Flor space which you obviously just went through consider this space it's it's um four floors you know of space on the right hand side um just I just want to note it while it's up here that that there may be some opport unities to to allow other things to OCC I have a comment the um I gra dark Shad area Street up to the property L about 13% I think [Music] I know Mr M spoke to that when we were here last meeting but callic but when you have when you have ra that speed you have to have a transition can't just go from Flat to 13 yeah I think Mr M spoke to that I think we actually spent know 15 or 20 minutes at the last meeting talking about it and I think he did say there is a transition that there's a trans position I don't know he's not here right now but I know we touched on it last should be so you go from 13 to six but what that does is it Leng just need TOS probably yeah really profile right you know you had it sort of on the other elevation but not really really take and the other thing is their te's pretty steep uh you know like it's covered it would not be a problem but in the winter with snow and sleep you covered that too you change the drainage optimize the the pitch for the drain I think from the driveway as part of that correct and what kind of Sonic Temple is there so again we talked about this at the last meeting so uh there there is that Alleyway that is between the two properties it is a 4ot wide e with two feet on their property two feet on our property we are offsetting our improvements to into our property first we are not in the uh fur further we are not impacting that uh that we we are not using that Alleyway we've never used it we don't use it uh we just maintained it uh just to leave the status quo as it relinks to that and I just suggest that you go do a someone go do a S sidewalk really look at it to me me I'm not sure that the surveys is accurate and I do know that the lodes encroach on the alleyway right we have no issue with the encroachments that are in there we don't really care about that chairman because we know we need it trck be told that Ean could probably just be vacated and both Property Owners get their property back because it serves no purpose but we are not looking they said it last month to upset the apple card as it relates to that exist whatever it is they may feel they still need just just I think the key is it probably probably there but let's just make sure it's clear like what I'm listening to what you're saying we want to do make sure it's clear sh see where you built I know there was there was questions about the retaining wall there's lots of stuff that he had talked about we just make sure that that's all square away and like I said they're encroaching now not on not our property they probably approach into from it into uh you into the four eement but does the now act as as a lawyer does the notice the LOD as part of no it do not Mr sof it's not required we've actually talked about that too uh we are not doing any improvements with that in that easement area our easement uh the the our property two feet in we are not encroaching onto their property we're not required to notice off of the extreme of that easement the easement as it is is 4 feet it's runs 2 feet down Center both properties so our property actually goes two feet into that easement space our buildings and our improvements again are not only not within that easing space we have brought them back two feet into our property no but what I'm saying is the fact that there is an EAS doesn't the 200t radius have to go in no no it doesn't well they're notice they're notice correct I do not have to notice off of that Mr simov okay he's sorry I wasn't asked but if I was applic Council I'm GNA answer it like a lawyer is not incorrect he's not incorrect In other words he CRA the the the uh the not using that access understand it so nothing in the lot brings it into being part of the subject site for this development application and therefore it doesn't require the inclusion of that adjacent property for purposes of calculating theot perimeter around okay I'm just [Music] [Laughter] we're all lawyers some Philadelphia some other I think that's all I this slide U this is the uh ground level once again examine the ll1 ll2 parking exit hand corner space the once again consider a courtyard based bicycle storage here somewhere we'll take a look at that CH yeah we could con see if we do both now we've alluded to the problem on the lower on the southernly exposure here um and I'm going to start getting into some fire issues um these juts out of your um Apartments like a lower lower left corner and the lower right well the lower left corner not the lower right I'm not so concerned about you can't do that you can't do that you can't you have to have basically what what the ground level is you got patios find sitting on top of the L1 roof okay you can't blck it like that there's got to be access and there's got to be access for a couple of reasons you do want emergency access for the resident don't have to provide it you can tell them no you just go out there and sit there and wait by the train tracks the other thing is you're really going to have to convince this hard that you don't need maintenance access to this faade to this uh side I'm I think it's incredible that you would not have access uh with any kind of Maintenance capability here you can't even drink Scaffolding in you can't do any that stuff so you need to pull those two jcks out in that lower apartment just just bring it bring it flat with this Southern Exposure I think you can you you figure out yourself you got to do maintenance right so the South Eastern Department to say okay how am I going to do maintenance there you know like what am I going to do can I bring LIF lift in what going to do is you're not proposing you said you're going to wash the windows from the inside so you're not proposing any kind of automated uh no it's correct it's why we selected as Mr Smith the materials that we have that are Stone cement uh you know facial board Windows Windows it doesn't matter you can't sit there and say out tree comes down what are you do they kill all the trees there so you have to have you just got to provide we understand the comment chair we'll take a look at and to that point in that lower left corner from the elevation it looks like there's actually um I don't know if it's a balcony but it looks like there's some type of jut out uh on the elevation so that would actually be over the property line then that's I'm saying yeah you can't but when you look at your roof elevation the dotted line actually goes through it and it changes color you know just the way that it's presented um because again on that elevation now you're showing some type of uh structure sticking out from the I think the the answer to this is to crank the whole bar just a little bit so you get a couple can you speak up a bit the answer is is to crank the whole bar a couple of feet and just so yeah I think when we we drew this particular angle we didn't have the correct property line and we'll take we we'll go back over we can find we can find a solution yes I know you can um there I'm going to bring up a point that we've raised that I want to be sure you're aware of and I we will be requesting and that is that we really care about what our bedrooms in each of these units and how they like you may have already this but if you have room that's um could be made into a bedroom not legal like a d it can't so no doors no doors on interior rooms that could become bad so so I we would like to actually talk about that because because it came up and I know that there is this concern about stacking and candidly this type of product and and the demographic uh it never even occurred to us that stacking would be an issue in a project such as this so I would say and I do a fair amount of these types of projects mix use projects um and Mr Smith can certainly speak to it um two bedroom units with a den uh a lot of times they are viewed as a premium I mean there are plenty of what are our expect just hear me out just hear me out if you so we're not providing closets and we're not providing closet spaces um but the opportunity to have the opp these are right correct the opportunity uh to have doors on a den where maybe it's a TV room maybe it's an office we got empty nesters that have sold their homes they're moving in here and and guess what maybe they'll have a pull out couch and when their grandkids come in they have a pull out couch and they can close a door on a den not intended to be a living space we do have very strict lease requirements as it is uh and we can certainly report back on what our our our lease opportunity or requirements are our our own prohibitions you know relative to sub leases Etc um stop right there okay you said it yourself we're gonna have a den with a pull out couch that is illegal you cannot do that that jeopardizes the safety of the children or whoever's in room and you said it and like well how easy is it to do that no you cannot so I take out I take out a pull out couch but an office a TV room doesn't need a door that's my wife doesn't need now bathrooms yeah course real bedroom no closet it's not a bedroom space this is it's not what you think of this are think people are going to stack it I think the rents are going to be high I think these are going to be in demand I think people are going to in fact figure out ways that they have multiple people paying for the apartment if it's anything like what's going on in Burnville today you will get stacking it will happen and we can't enforce it because our regulations don't allow us to enforce it so you to take it back and ensure that you do not have these enclosed space that are potentials and it's very having a hard time understanding what the issue of a door on a TV room or someone's office is true you are I am yes I just because it provides it is one of the aspects of a bever do you know the definitions of the bever but we're going to get into that too right now far as closet space so no so square footage and agress window and so so you cannot have an interior bedroom in your architectes out of doors we take it under advis chairman you should yes this is ground level um your e Windows shrubs or two patios fine you know so generally in ground level except for along the driveway on ground level and I'm going to get into this now in a it's late but it's not enough to just have an eress window in a b but you do like on the fourth floor and there's an ESS window in the bedroom where is it going to go to how do I eress now you're not and I'm not saying you should you're not putting in virus cases and whatever but it has to be an ESS and it can't be a World Trade Center regress let me just jump out you know because it's fire so this is going to radically change what I'm going to say it's going to be interesting but change potentially change your design and what I'm going to suggest because I want to increase the value of the property and the marketability and so forth what I'm going to what I'm going to suggest is no don't put fire escapes up there I'm going to suggest is you rearrange your P your uh balconies to provide what's legally termed as an area of refuge and therefore each ESS window each bedroom requires an area of refuge and you can look at the terms up and it's really important and it's going to take some time to do this we'll certainly compl the fiber Cod CH yeah I know he hasn't been here and he just you just but the point is AR needs to know the fire code chairman has covered this topic with you just so you're aware the there's a solution and there's an aesthetic solution and there's something that increased value solution and that is you install a balcony outside of the window and the reason you can install a balcony outside the window is that the way firemen fight fires today is it's very interesting and it's sort of an setting like this one of these units will catch on fire and it will burn uncontrollably and people potentially could be in those units and unable to exit it that's why we have a window and an eress window the firemen cannot reach your regress Windows there's no way to fight the fire I can't put a ladder up and go get your person out through NE window they won't get there in time and they don't have the equipment to do it what they do is they fight the fire through the building and through the unit and they put it they and they go to the window and they extract the victims hopefully like back through the unit that's how they fight the fire and that's why an area of Refuge is a critical fire fighting component this is going to take some time for you to look it's going to take some iteration it's going to take some testimony from fire officials but you can't just have a window of egress that egresses to to to the air that's the the problem well again we will most certainly satisfy the fire code your fire sub code officials in this regard we'll take that under advisement Che that's fine is that bu Cod it's fire I don't know that it is code I do not believe it's in the building code I think it's in the building code dict yeah do I I don't think it does I'm agreeing Happ fire I think i' say fire this this unit prent presents significant never seen before convered um fire fighting challenges um one of them we already discussed they can't get here in time to fight your fire their response time isn't long enough that you have that more advanced sprinklers to do it um this is another one you you think about it you know it's like I have an Eis window because the state mandate the E window it's like okay where do I go you can't put a ladder there that's against code you can't have ladders um you certainly I'm not suggesting it put fireus skates there can do that with Southern Exposure potentially you know if you wanted to but I don't want to do that but the the easy way out that I see for you is constructively is balconies and I think that balconies increase the value there's cost but you've got balconies already part of your vision and the challenge for you architecturally is what do we do with a forth for how do we make that look good how do I how do I handle an area of refuge on the PT FL um and uh from each of the EV so anyway [Music] um yeah uh I since it's I've raised it before and other people have raised it the public ra it is what could we possibly do to and even people what could we do to potentially uh off you know set the uh Morristown Frontage further into the property and as you know uh with doing that um it condenses the courtyard a little bit which is minor impact um but it SES the units as you know one of the opportunities to to draw that back now that's to eliminate the height concern that people have in the tunnel and so forth it's just some like this gets into the like please consider I want to raise it as people want to raise which is could you bring the front further down and could you for instance leverage the addition building location I gave you to make up for um but it might just be 15 ft or one of those little sections you know building sections that you've got there look at there's any way to bring it further down um because there was talk of changing the angle that one projection along the railroad give it a better set you do the same thing on the North side look at g to squeeze the units you could either and you know do this could reduce the number of un I think it's contrary to the Redevelopment plan and purposes it's design but sure we'll take a look at it you you heard my motivation I heard just it's just a possibility and I gave there's bunch of drawings show how you can do it and stuff but um I I want to it's not trivial setting it back I'm not saying it is because you've got the lower parking levels you've got clearances ands and ramps and all that other stuff down there so um and then people don't realize that they look at you know they say push that you know whatever it's not a but at least want you to um which you've agreed to do just we'll think about it we'll consider it it is um right so those those are some of big ones any other comments 11 ask questions so do a matter what's our next meeting date is I'm sorry just our next meeting date the next meeting date is June 133 the only concern which I mentioned to Denise is as long as um either I I can't but as long as Jeff har can be here if neither of us can be here then I'm going to recommend you not this that we not carry if neither you nor the vi chairman can be here yes um but if we can still have a forum you still have a forum but no I'm not chairman you're your recommend I want to know what you're saying so I can do my job the the the the U what you're saying is even if there's a quarum but neither you or the vice chair are here you're saying there won't be a a meeting or at least this hearing this this hearing should be carried to that day I'll deal with it we still here from op operations right and we still have to have the public whatever other operational questions yeah because Mr Smith will address some of them along the way and I'm not sure what's left CH well I I really need to go through we really need to go through the deliver the little deliveries that how that's going to work I'm not sure that your opinion is one that we'll be satisfied with at the moment perhaps not and um that's that's an example you know another that's an operational issue there just other things we don't know you've alluded to some is it a d building is it how is coverage going be how who's going to people we haven't handled uh emergency access per se um and we haven't handled fire access either so there those issues that that have to come up I I realized I didn't even ask maybe this is such a ideally this such a wonderful place that everyone's going to have Maids that take stuff out and dump it in the trash chain you know like they're not going to do it themselves because it's still in the worst place could be then that well I just say I disagree chairman why don't we just carry this meeting um we'll be on for the 13 my understanding if you're not here and vice chair aren't here they'll be carried further my only question is if is a meeting going to be cancelled I've had to Ren notice uh when it was cancelled the last time is there going to be a assuming that you're not here and and the vice chair aren't here is there still going to be a meeting so that an announcement can be made or am I going to be in a situation I'm going have to if there's if there's a quarum uh unless someone prohibits the meeting from occurring they then with a quarum the meeting could be car on the 13th yeah like so they could we could we whatever carried the carried that's just what I would hope uh so that we wouldn't have to Ren notice and we have an extension cont we got it right now until June 30th that's what R right so we don't need any further at this time uh the uh we're announcing Mr that this matter is being carried okay we're announcing that this meeting will be carried without further notice this is clear maybe before we make the announcement can we uh can we consider a special I think that's working with you espec since it's in my opinion it's collaborative right ever which end of it if you want to why don't we see where why don't we make the announcement let's see where we are the vice chair is here then we'll proceed on the 1dr respective we're back to caring without further notice to June 13 7:30 pm same Lo M so it should be discussed if we are going to have a speci meeting should we establish a plan B now sure calendars are [Music] available that would have to be noticed well I think if you I think if we were here on the 13th I don't know and an announcement was be made I think that I think the municipality has to do a notice for a special but I don't believe I need to notice prop what you're saying is a special be after the 13 it'll be after it'll be be after I think we're GNA I think we're going to see I assume we can probably find out of the vice chair be here yeah I'm very here I expect that most prob I won be he will be guarante so nothing's Chang changing for our members of the one more time we're still just carrying it to the June 13th 30m this location without further teric thank you very much everybody appreciate you stay late tonight if there's any business of any moving well but I'll tell you next I'm going to make you wait question so on the I have a conflict ends at 7 at working starts at 7:30 if I miss any of the testimony I disqualify myself a voter is that correct well I mean you could qualify yourself after the fact but if we're finishing that evening get on soon it could present a problem but uh if you can jump on I jump on Zoom would yes you can as long as applicant stipulates I think they wouldn't spend $100 doing this yeah that 5 10 15 20 minutes watching have a nice memorial don't have to move it I just have to