e e e e when my husband and I were D he was in residency and I was in Michigan visiting him he had round so he takes me with him puts me in a white coat and he introduces me Dr which was and Mr talking about his whatever issue wanting to look at the cute young doctor instead of him yes yes of course why [Music] exactly says it's somewhere on the DI Latin which is nice because I don't want to when I graduated how long it's a good thing I can't figure out those numbers yeah this at one oh and then this way you unless you I just not for long for for still e 14 it's [Music] I'm sorry I just need I'm having a problem with this I need to [Music] [Music] something [Music] than [Music] [Music] then you open [Music] up [Music] should pop get [Music] obviously I only got one to know [Music] [Music] every hard thank you [Music] begin slipping away you'll P that what's wrong with chair I [Music] Council adopted the plan just like any other governmental action just like his own any ordinance um on the deliveries you went over that very quickly I wonder if you could explain in more detail how particularly uh parcel deliveries will be made to the project and how the parcel once delivered will move within the project yeah I think that's better testimony for both our traffic engineer and our architect there's some internal pieces of the building all of that I think you'll hear that as we go through the application SE um as far as the loading do and I'm just again maybe this something that'll be brought up later uh I'm assuming there'll be an overhead door on that north side of that uh bump out will that allow vehicles to get inside the building that's correct so they'll be able to get in yes and you'll you'll see what that looks like as we move through the application right okay and then one other question about this land here on the South Side between those two uh bumps in the building there it shows grass will that actually be grass there or again from looking at the the parking plan the lower level that would be a Lo right there yeah I don't I think the intention is that will be sunk under that the uh the grass there so This Grass up be on top yeah so that's that area yeah how the last question so there will be grass on top of the yeah and there's there's some elevations that we'll work through again with the architect you'll be able to see that in true color and how it'll look from that side so if that's the case then there will be grass in between those two uh bump out in the building you have a zero setback on one side and 1 fo4 in setback on the other side is there some plan to be able to maintain that grass area yeah I think it'll I think it'll just be M I don't think we have but you'll have to you'll have to come on someone else to get yeah there's and I think as you see the elevations you'll see there's an opportunity to trim that up from the inside of the garage as well so we'll go through that okay are you fil the yes and you hear that I'm sorry we need to have a question finished and then an answer given court reporter is probably going to appreciate that as well but uh and everyone needs to hear both okay so please if everyone can cooperate in that regard well I'm sorry can you repeat the question I asked if the do application has been filed it has been yes can we see a copy of it yes and our traffic engineer will speak more to it okay so John I'm going to withhold questions from the public I've got about 60 more for the engineer um but I do want you to be able to introduce your TR okay witness that's fine I'm sorry already forgot if I swar all the witnesses last time we're not 100% sure I'm swearing again please raise your right hand you swear to God or friend that the testimony you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth do thank Mr cor can you please provide the board with a summary of your educational and professional background and licenses you hold of course again for the record my name is John porak last name spelled c r a k with Stonefield engineering and design with my office located at 92 Park Avenue in Rutherford New Jersey I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey I hold a Bachelor of Science and civil engineering from the College of New Jersey I'm an expert in the field of traffic and transportation engineering I've prepared over 200 traffic studies for Land Development applications I've appeared before over 90 boards within the state and I serve as a uh board expert board reviewer uh in front of four municipalities in the state well except thank you thank you chairman M corak um you your office prepared the traffic impact study that's uh for uh the board in conjunction with this application is that correct that's correct I'll just turn the floor over to you to speak to uh your findings with respect to this project of course can you just confirm it's the September 26 2023 traffic impact study and that traffic study was dated September 26 2023 correct thank great so as part of our traffic study we do a comprehensive review of the site itself the surrounding roadway Network work ultimately looking to assess the impacts of the proposed development as it relates not only to vehicular traffic in and out of the site and at the adjacent traffic signal but of course The Pedestrian realm and how it fits from the movement of people perspective um in this downtown uh setting Village core if you will um that this property resides on and has a lot of potential to become so that existing condition today um several buildings on the site a little bit tired and and a large asphalt parking lot we have two existing access points one on Mount AR Road and one on Route 202 and so on Mount arog Road where you're constrained is that because you're so close to this traffic signal um the existing access is frequently blocked by cued vehicles and so making any sort of left turn movements in or out becomes problematic and making even right turn movements in and out means you're going to have to wait it's not so much a safety concern but it is a timing concern if you will at the route 202 driveway that presently exists uh it is shifted much more to the left uh more about where the uh the courtyard Plaza is and between the the curvature of the roadway both horizontal and vertical so the curvature and the hill the crest of the roadway um and of course the buildings that are very close to the uh the property line what you've got at that dve driveway is a pretty substantial site distance issue meaning if you're trying to leave that site um looking toward the traffic signal it is very difficult to see oncoming Motors especially coming from Mount ARA Anderson Hill Road uh that direction right so those Vehicles traveling on 202 if you're trying to make that turn out today it's somewhat of a Flor and prey yeah it's it's you're you're essentially uh trusting that in that little that you can see no additional vehicle is going to come through and it certainly doesn't hold up to any of the modern-day site distance standards or guidelines that are that are provided to us um by the American Association of State Highway Transportation officials ashto which is also used by the NJ do and most uh engineering review agencies as well so as it exists today um you know a a site development that uh you know from that vehicular perspective is a little bit lackluster and then on a pedestrian perspective especially in the fabric of a downtown core um the the sidewalks and the the equipment in the the right of way um essentially the traffic signal equipment creates a condition where you really can't walk by without kind of tiptoeing around a uh a traffic signal pole if you have a stroller or you're in a wheelchair you simply can't get around some of the existing infrastructure on that sidewalk area it's about 3 feet wide in its narrowest point with the traffic signal pole sitting right there it completely does not conform to um Ada accessibility requirements proag and the like and so know that's it's a major constrain especially in an area that is intended to be very walkable right south of the railroad tracks is additional parking for the downtown simply come across the bridge and then you're met with uh you know an an impediment from a pedestrian stand Point that's it's not very positive it's not very prent and so as part of this design what we're looking to do is obviously conform to the Redevelopment plan and part of that um conformance with the Redevelopment plan includes a number of benefits and attributes that are related to improving both vehicular and pedestrian mobilization and circulation um around the property and in the property itself so the first component of it starting with the the vehicular is locating the vehicular access those going to and from the parking area on Route 202 because the Turning movements on M are are challenging to make anytime there's a que so you want to push it on 202 as far away from the traffic signal as possible and what this does is it affords us much better sight lines it affords us less impact from any cues that are on 202 any any lineup of cars um and It ultimately creates a safer condition one where you can move Vehicles more efficiently on on and off the site itself uh the second piece is by locating um the loading to mount ARA Avenue loading generally being infrequent and the way this loading area Works um is that essentially because those left turns to and from Mount AR are very difficult especially if you are uh using you know a larger van or a box truck that that's that's what we'd expect for this uh type of development essentially the the movement for the loading operation is you're coming up Mount area um headed Northbound you essentially turn in making a right turn in pulling all the way up and then you back into the uh the loading dot area that's covered and so when you want to leave then you simply leave that loading dot area pull out and essentially uh slide over to the left to make the right turn out of the site and continue on Mount AR and either up to uh to Anderson HIll or on the route 202 so the the intent here is to make very simple Maneuvers right turning type maneuver ERS um not being obstructed by those those cues and locating this loading in an area that's away from um a lot of the other pedestrian activity the downtown activity on Route 202 and and outside of some of the internal cych orrow as well that's part of our tra you just said something you said outside of the downside downtown pedestrian accident what makes you think pedestrian activity isn't right there for that loading well the main storefronts and businesses is well you know your travel yeah the the travel paths they're all fronting rout two of two yours right but But continuing on the corridor it's it's much more substantial on 202 and and sure across on Anderson Hill Road in Al Square you're saying we're just not going to have pedestrian activity on the Mount Erie side that's not my testimony my testimony is that it's the Lesser that pedestrian area you have to locate your loading access on one of the two streets and this is the preferred location based on that now you've chosen it alloc and you've been allowed to put your loading area on one of the two speeds correct and that's by ordinance basically by the agreement that was given you were given permission to do this it's not standard forver but your here agreement is allowed you to consider putting the voting Zone on that area should normally be illegal the entrance to the loading zone is on Mount Ary there's no backing in for Mount Ary there's no maneuvering that's on Mount area except a right turn in and a right turn out that doesn't matter repe I'm just clarifying that's all how does that loading area conform to the counting requirements count in terms of driveway openings things like that it I'm not 100% sure on the the curve line opening um it's possible that it needs a labor I'm not sure and the count also requires a 66 pill RightWay along M AR dedication for eement for roog wiing is that in the plan at present consideration does not appear to be no this is a minor arterial County master plan so they require easement or a dedication 33 ft through Center Line sure but that doesn't seem possible with the bump out yeah TR board can you speak a little louder that that is not it appears that that's not possible for new bump out along M area with the loading 33 foot from Center Line what it's either an easement or a dedic and that's something we can discuss with the county I think one of the considerations here is that uh Bridge directly south of us that would would at least taper um you know the extent that the the county would look to widen this area in the future but that's definely disc being replaced it's a good idea but bridge is being replaced so not it's something to discuss with the county it's their master plan right away with we can do that the county yes respons count I'm not sure I'm sorry I can't speak yeah who's speaking you can someone's testifying we have to know who they are one at a time we do not have a formal review letter from the county he said that when trucks left the loading zone M um they would make a right turn and either go up Anderson or about 202 are trucks permitted on Anderson Road right now A Truck above a certain size coming down to two that wants to go up um m road it's got to go down to claremount trucks cannot go up Anders road that was correct right so it could doesn't have to be a truck necessarily could be one of those Amazon Sprinter vans could be the smaller delivery type vehicles but right what you do you have a box truck which I don't think can go up Anderson can it it's going to be by way I think it's five tons yeah so how big is Box Truck Yeah empty might hit five tons a small what's that truck going to do if you want is he have to make the left turn on to 202 that's a left or a right yeah he need to go up he gonna take a left turn on two2 [Music] South one at a time board members please cresses over the traffic course the traffic you got it to the left yes exactly or make a right turn well go the right way you can't make another turn until it gets down to okay thank you I I have a question about the the trucks themselves you had mentioned a van or box truck can go in and out of there maybe I'm getting a little ahead of myself but have some of the units are three bedroom units what kind of of moving van in and out is that the only place where there would be accessibility for Vans or trucks and if you have a three bedroom apartment you've got to have more than a box truck so how have you so the this area is the area for loading the move in the move out um three-bedroom apartments would utilize larger trucks but that can be a larger sized box truck it doesn't have to be an articulated tractor trailer uh there are uh UL type trucks that that are uh you know large enough to accommodate and move a three-bedroom unit and know one bedroom is going to be a smaller truck typically but they they do those box trucks do exist and and would be the kind of move in move out vehicle U that' be specified here so that that would fit that wouldn't fit underneath that would just be the outdoor area underneath we have the clearance for trucks as well yeah yeah it's it's the 14t clearance and and all the I would just stipulate I think it might may have said it on the eth all residential movein move outs they're all managed and controlled or would be managed and controlled by building ownership so it's not a it's not a free-for-all we have multiple movings I'm talk about the space itself what are the uh what are the number of deliveries that you've used in your model to describe all the different types of deliveries you mentioned one there's the post office there's Amazon there's FedEx there's ups there's DHL there's Uber which may be different lift taxi you know all the other types of deliveries um I don't know if you're expecting GrubHub or door Dash to do deliveries there uh liquers groceries pharmacies what I guess it's what kind of deliveries do you expect to be done and I asked you this before so there's a lot deliveries is a big a big cloud of stuff and I'm wondering what quantity of deliveries you used in your traffic assessment of that loading facility and I I appreciate the move in move out would be scheduled but what did you use right so so the move in move out is the one component of it and and once the the building is leased up that's a free minor amount right your your leases are typically leased a year you hope for renewals because that keeps the residents in the unit longer um it keeps you know the rent coming in um the other deliveries we'd expect there are mostly related to the retail components um you know related to deliveries for those retail pieces and any I would guess box truck deliveries of the residential so so what I would expect to be able to use some of the parking areas the internal circulation would be those passenger vehicle type deliveries door Dash Uber Eats your pick ups for Uber um you know those types of um you know residential type deliveries can utilize those areas on site where the circulation is open and available um instead of mixing that type of use uh in a in a loading Corridor that that predominantly serves the box trucks yeah you brought up a great Point there's the retail um replenishment that I I left off my list for you how many delivery truck you see it arriving what was your assumption being frequency which delivery trucks making deliveries to Apartments would be during the uh building during the day yeah so over the course of a typical day you might see um you know two to three box truck type the smaller box trucks that the FedEx uh ups are delivering with um you know Amazon they have a little bit more frequency but when you're delivering two apartment buildings um you're able to essentially put more packages in for more units and and handle the deliveries um you know at a at a more singular time than spreading out numerous trucks throughout the day what was the number of trucks youting drive every day you model this it was for the residential portion two to three trucks how many two to three okay I think we should answer I'm sorry can't hear you we should defer answering that question we can we can revisit that certainly yeah I mean I get more than that just in one house you know five deliveries a day so and you got mail you know yes that's a separate delivery it I'm talking I'm talking the Box drucks the larger STS you know when we're talking about the the Amazon Sprinter bands the mail those are additional additional components ask about the truck and the size of the truck like the smaller box we is 30 ft now the the smaller ones are more like 23 ft like the movement sure but then there's the discussion of the larger box truck which is 40 ft have you plotted the I saw a plotting of a 30t truck have you done the 40ft truck at this point I haven't plotted the 40 um have plotted the 30 though so we'll need to make sure that 40 can be accom okay and the expectation would have been 30 depend that loading zones and our town are supposed to be 30 ft capable of supporting those trucks and so you're saying in addition to that you'll plot out of course so when it's Tru arriv the Amazon where does it go it goes into that 30 Lo it would likely be in the outdoor loading zone understanding how they they typically aren't going to enter buildings now when the second truck comes at the same time where would it go it it' likely be in that area as well for the two trucks to be there at the same time the two could stage it might take a little bit of uh jostling to to get the second one out but but yes youit you could park to and that at same okay so now now the guys in the loading zone and he takes his packages out how do the packages move through the building I would defer that's the architect good question that's the architect can we just back up and just clarify this I don't know if I I heard it correctly if um Uber or that kind of a pick up a taxi would that come down in the parking area or at that same pickup location where your your deliveries are it would not it would certainly not be in the pickup delivery location that that the you know an Uber taxi pickup is not likely staging there typically what you see with with any Uber pickup is they stage on the street um if you have something like a a a a grocery delivery service you have like the uh the Shoppers that do it for you in their own personal vehicle they're probably coming into um you know the the parking lot area uh the Uber uh can also be directed by that the person ordering it if they're not ready hey don't wait on 202 come and park in the I'm sorry I'm sorry if I can't hear probably other people members of the public can't either so In fairness to the members of the public if it could be a little quieter and the board members can speak a little louder um so I'm just trying to if if you've got say a an Uber taxi and and they've been called from one of the units now that that vehicle actually comes down that driveway that goes into the underground parking is that what you're saying they could it's it's a shared um parking area that's open to the public because some of it is retail some of it is residential and so those retail spaces being open to the public are an opportunity really in a case where and this this happens from time to time you order the Uber they arrive quicker than you think they will um and that you can basically call or text the Uber and direct them either to your pickup location or where to Stage it's you know the the app technology there exists for that type of communication they can't they can't save on even right so are you stimulating to the fact that I guess you use the word um typical residential vehicle will not stage or pick up in the loading zone and will only be do so in I our intent is not to have them stage on route to two but are you stipulating that would be managed by the management company that that won't happen that's correct I I think the other thing you said you said someone else should be answering these questions right that it's that in terms of the those to theic and deliveries and so for not about the loading zone it's somewhere else wa to back just move through the building and they need to answer whoever those Witnesses need to answer those questions sorry when com downway will there be a stop there that for them to stand uh or um that it doesn't block access the you have like a standing Zone in the garage so that doesn't block garage up the standing come down no they usually use a parking space is your scope supposed to be on turn circulation circulation is part of it yeah on per circulation so then question to ask is okay yeah vehicular circulation on site certainly I I do know Mr cork actually has a lot more direct testimon because he's going to speak to trip generation and so forth so we can just maybe we'll roll through that and then we'll come back to to some of these things if that's okay great so getting back into the direct testimony laying out the reasoning for the driveway locations we actually need to do then the analysis of the impact related to the site itself to understand uh are there you know further improvements that need to be made um related to vehicular impact pedestrian an impact on your life and so what we do uh as part of our traffic studies we conduct traffic counts um we conduct those count during uh the typical weekday morning weekday evening and Saturday midday heat periods uh those periods generally represents uh the the peak volumes on the roadway Network and when your traffic is most likely to be affected by a development like this so we conducted those counts narrowed them down to a peak hour for the analysis purpose that's how Traffic Engineers conduct these traffic studies they look at a peak hour analysis uh and then we valuate the levels of service at that intersection itself we then move into a future year condition um where we essentially grow the traffic we account for a little bit of background traffic growth whether that's just from overall population growth um growth from other developments in the area which we've included one um and uh and generally speaking as background growth factor that dot recommends as a conservative measure to increase the volume you know for a you know for a future year grow the next component is to add in the actual traffic generated by the site the way we do that is with the trip generation manual published by The Institute of Transportation Engineers for this manual it's industry standard uh it provides uh trip forecast for a number of different land uses here we have both residential component and the retail component and we also have proximity involved to the train station we have a walkability we have a little bit of interconnected play between residents using the retail uses um and so what that ultimately shakes out to is for the 66 units um a total of 68 I'm sorry 68 units a total of 47 peak hour trips in the morning peak hour uh 52 peak hour trips in the evening peak hour and 58 peak hour trips in the Saturday midday peak hour so you see the retail going up a little bit there um on that on that Saturday period and that's also um pretty consistent with the roadway volumes um in terms of how they scale both morning evening and Saturday being one of the higher um you know roadway volume conditions uh throughout the week and just when you're when you're speaking to trips Mr corak and in is trip and an out is a trip correct corre so we're not it's not double correct and so in in the morning you'll see a higher rate of out trips as more people are leaving to go to work um you know it's a similar phenomenon the other way in the evening where you have more people coming in um returning from work and then Saturday is a pretty even split uh as people are running errands visiting retail and life where it's a it's a broader distribution throughout the day and and get closer to 50 50 is it based on um parking spaces or residents or what it's based on unit count for the residential and it's based on uh floor area for the uh retail so J can I ask you a clarifying question based on something that was just specifi to with your permission because you gave numbers uh Mr cor 47 week day morning peak hour 52 weekday evening peak hour and Saturday weekday peak hour uh for the benefit of the public couple of things number one can you give what those peak hours are yeah of course so those peak hours uh occurred from 7:30 a.m. to 8:30 a.m. that's weekday morning weekday morning weekday evening is 5 to 6 Saturday midday was 11:15 to 12:15 based on the actual volumes that we counted and the numbers you gave 47 52 58 those were on page nine your adjusted uh uh post proposed CP generation correct correct and those adjustments were from page eight and they included something called internal capture trip reduction and something called Lu I'm assuming that's land use code yeah 822 34% 26% passed by trip reduction right so those are not what I would call Gross proposed trip generation numbers those are net per these adjustments that you made is that correct that's correct and would it be I think the chair commission might be appropriate to explain for the benefit of the public those adjustments be put I want the public to be aware of the fact that you've made adjustments these numbers that are based as I understand it on these code uh on the it 11th Edition manual right so with so the first component of those adjustments the internal capture um you have essentially residential uh use on the same site as uh retail use and so some of those retail trips are often times generated from the residential unit so there's a you know a modest reduction because you don't have to leave the site you basically just walk over to that use um so are you in in essence is saying some of the customers are going to come from the 68 units themselves so therefore some numbers going to be less is that the point that's correct okay uh and I guess you have a column in there that during certain periods of time okay yeah we don't forecast it much for the morning it's more that evening and Saturday peak hour conditions um same thing on the on the pass by trips those are four you know retail trips that are already on the roadway Network retail frequently captures traffic volumes from the roadway Network and so those volumes are routed from the roadway in and out of the driveway for the analysis they don't actually constitute new vehicles on the road itself um what's not captured in here is uh reductions related to Transit use where we would expect you know given the proximity to the train station a number of residents in particular to foro driving to work and instead take the train to work and that would reduce peak hour traffic volumes especially on the the morning and the evening period I newey train fig that I have a question yeah but you when you did the projections you for midrise you used the you didn't take advantage of the the adjustment the calculation the land use code that you use because there is a use code that says near train near public transportation you didn't do that I would need to double check it it may incorporate that it's not specified in here I need to confirm that well I checked it great I appreciate that and it doesn't the land use code that you used was not one within a half a mile of train station right and so the ones within a half mile obviously incorporate that that train in reality they're about the same so how are you suggesting that their estimates are higher than what they could be or take the other way if you if you use if you use the category within a half mile of a train station it ends up being about the same number because the the the environment the number of studies that were done for the train station category were a lot different there were like 200 studies done for the midrise and only like half a dozen done for within certain distance half mile train cor right so it ends up being the same D sa BR yes uh what version um this one was done in Synchro 11 and 12 was published recently right I just would suggest that you do that since in 12.2 there was a correction to right turn computations course so yeah happy to take a look at that in in the latest version of Synchro which of course wasn't published when the study was yeah prepared but happy to look at that so moving on with um you know so you you took no credits mass transit being in [Music] proximity right he took a different credit I'm sorry can you I'm sorry he took a different credit instead of the mass transit credit he took the one for the internal shopping yeah okay I just that clarification correct well can we talk about that the internal trips sure you reduce the trip Generation by about 22% based on the internal trip so you think that it's a decision based on the it um trip generation handbook Third Edition quote but 9,000 square ft broken up into what pieces sections that are 2200 in the Palmer building and then what 3,000 in each of the less than 3,000 in each of the new buildings they're going to draw 20% of the traffic from the residential I mean that's that's just in my opinion that's a little conser too conservative sure so again that those numbers are from the trip generation handbook they are also adopted by the NJ do they use the same uh internal capture percentages we've done the supported industry standards and and that level of reduction on a a mixed use project I don't think is is uncharacteristic I also don't think it's uncharacteristic to say say that um some of those trips would be captured by people already walking on the street in part of the downtown an urban infield type uh trip reduction as well now there's a lot of different um analysis that can be done to essentially correct the data from a standalone Suburban development totally car Centric to a development like this or in a downtown core why didn't you use that because we felt the internal capture was appropriate so I guess I'm going to ask a question differ is it your assessment that the trip count that you're is really a maximum trip count is that your testimony Bas on the fact you didn't take several of the credits I think was the je used we took some of the credits not all of the credits we could have taken no credits that would be the maximum well I'd like to if you could present there's a there's a meth of calc because you calculated based on the methodology for the internal trips could you present that could you bring that back the next meeting yeah of course yeah there's there standard um you know spreadsheets that that help calculate it but yeah we can Prov that it is it's possible um with no credits that you test that would be the maximum that you can find that on table two page8 okay or the yeah the the the residential stays at 47 the uh the Saturday and sorry not the residential stays at 47 the morning stays at 47 okay the Saturday and PM we get to these are both at 88 peak hour trips for that I questioned the calculation the internal TR okay I think it it may be a benefit to the board if we were um you know also able to just look at the analysis without any of the reductions right instead of trying to again that might be the more practical way sensitivity analysis but we we would expect reductions but we're happy to look at them without yeah I think the statement is right the expectation is that there are reductions based on where it's located how it's located I think understanding the maximum is an important thing yeah of course can you describe how in the guide B that you reference to Traffic Engineers how they have in the last year or two um adjusted for the societal changes that have swer people to this type of deliver delivery orientation for these Vans and Ubers and so forth what have they got in their manual that describes the factors that need to be considered as opposed to residences and units and so forth right so the know the the trip generation rates are still going to be based on units bedroom count uh a development type plan tenant trip rate essentially essentially for residential use now um you know with recent publications of the trip generation manual parking generation manual um there's there's a constant um you know every few years now they're making these updates with with new data and they're essentially eliminating the old data from um you know from the reference guide and you can further filter out that data um but in terms of the the way that they categorize the data and include it in the trip generation manual it essentially gets separated out cars and trucks and there's no real distinction made about delivery services and the like within that trip generation sounds sounds like a problem and and certainly deliveries uh you know they they can happen in the peak hour they oftentimes happen outside of that as well I understand you're picking Peak it's true the methodology is picking peak hours and it's not like oh well from 7:30 to 8:30 that's what all my deliveries are going to happen including Pizza that I need deliver but um but nonetheless it seems to me that there actually needs to be explicit discussions of that especially in Suburban you know settings that these and I know it's new and there there's not a lot of studies there are a lot of trips being generated by deliveries and pickups and so Mr can i d question on that the concern expressed the well the the issue that you're the issue is that oh no no I understand the issue I may I ask a question or two oh yeah I'm I'm curious the the uh you for traffic you're using it 11th generation correct a lot of addition uh the the the um when did that come out is that published in the I think the past two years I don't know I'm trying to recall I might have piece of documentation that tells me I think within the past two years but I need to confirm to assume any any studies that were Incorporated in the it uh uh 11th Edition uh if it came came out say two years ago the studies preceded of the publication of course okay the the uh and do we know when the it fifth generation is that the it fifth generation oh we're up to six now ah we know when that one came out was last year was recent second half last year the um same thing though right any any any TR any study that is Incorporated in the publication of each each Edition without have the preced the publication of each Edition right to my knowledge but the the it both both trip generation and parking generation are now published online so it is possible that they have updated provided updated studies so I don't outright say it has to proceed it but did you use the one online or did you use the publish the one okay so call at the time of you know the September 26th date you know off hand whether they actually add a new studies on before publishing the next Edition I've seen them revise land use codes I've seen them revise the way the studies are delegated um without releasing a new addition um I don't know off hand if these particular uses that were used have had that happen do we know whether or not uh uh do we know when from what range of time uh the studies were uh that appear in the it1 Edition for for trip generation the it5 Edition for parking six six I keep doing uh sixth edition uh uh do we know the rate of time uh from when the respective additions studies were that are you asking time of day or year or like decade or both range of time between meaning the year years I don't know hands but that information can be obtained do they keep old ones or do they do each Edition do they just use a whole new set of uh uh studies uh that were subsequent to the prior Edition uh but precede the current edition now they do use some studies that were in Prior editions they determine they look at the data and determine if there's a need to cut off um old data for example a bank land use has had a substantial difference in traffic generation parking generation due to technology changes the way that people Bank direct deposit probably being the biggest piece of it where you no longer have to go to the bank to cash the check um so so the it make the the people who do it they they make those decisions as to what to keep what not to keep yes with some sort of basis for doing engine judgment I can add to that thank you nothing further because I I was part I submitted material to the it as it related to convenience stores with gasoline because they were using old and I presented the material and then I spoke so they assign an Editor to the to the manual and he takes the it was a mail he takes he took the material on the last Edition and picked and worked on developing standards for the new edition so comes from Traffic Engineers in the field submitting to the it then they that I guess it's safe to say at least now we don't quite know the range of years when the respective uh uh uh uh studies were done for use with respect to uh each of these midrise land use and the uh uh retail strip retail Plaza land use that came out of the 11th Edition other than to know that for the most part not entirely they preceded a year or two ago it's correct but we can t that information well those two uses are new are New Uses in the 11th Edition oh the 10th edition didn't have those I think the midrise was still in the 10th but the the strip retail strip retail was not and New Jersey do doesn't recognize the correct uh they're last I talked to dot about that they are uh they're too busy to even contemplate looking at the rates just with the so yeahp newy do still uses the the 10th edition yeah the midrise are in the 10th the strip retail is in the 11th but what I I'm what I'm I don't want to speculate but if if we look back at some of the data for that strip retail use some of May precede the 11th Edition because it likely came from the old shopping center land use or specialty retail land use previous land uses that uh were in in earlier editions of the code and that's where the editor of the the manual comes in I guess the bottom line is that the board so desires since you said you could provide that information or get that information the board can decide whether it wants you to do so or ask you to do so or not so I was just curious I'm thank you um and I know you have to get to the impact of these numbers but I wanted to know if you included in the model The Pedestrian Crossing at the northeast corner of the property I know it's not on your property but it did did you does the model tell you you have to do anything if there's a pedestrian Crossing for those right turns no we did not model um you know those those pedestrians at that Crossing no the counts were limited at the traffic signal it balanced through so we don't have those it's really then it's conventional stuff it's all about trips and a traffic signal who as opposed to Turning which is fine okay yeah that has to be figured out includ the pedestrians at the signal as well right right which must have been fun modeling that um but what about turning in and out of the driveway isn't that part of the I mean concern is the trips in and out of the driveway yes and the traffic there yes not the signal the vular um components of of that review yeah are part of this traffic study I think I think you make a great point about The Pedestrian Crossing located close enough where you say and this is where it's just about our drive and people turning in and out on to 202 thanks still the plan get this soon they're making both lefts and rights out of the parking parking that is that is the current plan yes it does fall to njd jurisdiction um but but that is that is the plan what what type of permit did you apply major access permit so you submit any traffic studies no good okay so continuing on once we've calculated that trip Generation Um what we then do is Route it to and from the subject site um that vehicular trip generation is of course using predominately using that uh the main driveway along Route 202 um we route the left turns right turns coming in and out of the site and then also continue those routings over to the traffic signal itself and as we look then in our level of service analysis that we conduct from existing to no build to build we look for degradations we look for impacts related to uh basically in between one analysis and the next and what the analysis shows is that the additional traffic created by the driveways at the traffic signal do not have a material impact on level of service and what do I mean by material impact in this case we're looking at delay increases that are um very much consistent generally speaking less than a 1 second increase as a result of um additional traffic volumes uh and and to that end we that's generally speaking imperceptible to motorists who are traveling through the corridor on a on a daily basis um at the driveway also we conducted a level of service analysis uh those turning movements operate at acceptable levels of service they meet the njd criteria for um level of service thresholds and and with that would not conclude any sort of adverse impact with those driveway movements either there's no substantial queuing the sight lines are vastly improved and the the traffic impact there just does not have any negative impact on week two so you interesting thing I just want to clarify so you said with the loading zone I believe there was negligible change I was under the I guess na that by removing a exit to the area that that would improve that situation that's not your assessment no the assessment at the at the traffic signal was negligible change and what we didn't do as part of this analysis was count the existing driveways and subtract off that volume it's it's as if that volume is still you know the volume that goes through the signal today if it's even it's going to the site it's as if it's still there in the analysis just just a little bit extra volume that in theory would would be directed elsewhere and not exist so I mean so you the assessment was no change either I'm driving north up the hill turning left into the existing lot or coming out of the existing lot going NE right or left that was not the the the no change level of service is at the traffic signal okay and the levels of service at the driveway operate at acceptable conditions for traffic engineering there's a statistic that I think you have probably that might be helpful and that is at the driveway in the PE hours what's the existing trip count at that spot you're saying information I do not have like for the existing site well then you have to have it well I have the volume on the road that's what I meant I don't no I'm sorry I said it righty I I didn't mean internally you know the volume of the driveway and then on the road itself you know you're saying there 47 in one case you know 47 in in or outs you know that are additional because because you're not taking credit for and okay how many cars pass by that spot in both directions I you know they both count right right at that hour you know so 47 is what you know do 300 cars pass by how many cars in that hour passed by that sure the front of that driveway sure understand the question now so um during the morning I'm headed on I'll do this by call it 202 North which is eastbound right um in the morning it's 579 on 202 North 485 202 South sorry can I get the last one 45 45 on particular page in your it is you give the board and everyone else the benefit of the page notes this on page A1 17 did you say A7 okay and then uh in the evening when it's 52 incremental what's what's the same number 53 North 707 South so essentially a 5 to 10% change in volume I was asking cling approxim a 5 to 10% change in volume correct correct and also a directional shift yes where where you're now more headed south than the E and then that Saturday time period actually came out dead even during our counts at 597 and 597 579 no the the bracketed oh I'm sorry yeah yeah different Traffic Engineers write it out differently the bracket is the Saturday so all the counts that were uh taken into all the vehicle accounts taken into uh the study are just on 202 pass the driveway not taking into account the number of vehicles passing Mount AR Road past the uh if you that if you um if you go to that page on a77 and we have the the full complement of volumes at the traffic signal so headed up on Mount AR and then you could add in the left and throughs coming down south as well uh you bring up a point so are are they counts at the front of the driveway or are they traffic signal count at the signal so how do you handle the did it count the southbound till2 traffic that there's to the right up to there a signal there I mean there's an ancillary signal Does it include that primary it does so um the the figure itself just looks like a a t cross but you'll notice that the Morristown Road the route 202 as the right turn volume because we did count that Al where you know the right turn we did count the all cot square right volumes headed uh up and or that do not good question but I sorry ask more time the numbers that you're providing the 40 to 60 I'm giv the rank be the increase in volume does not account for actually is not including the volume that's currently coming in and out of that lot correct so it's so it may not be a net positive of 40 to 60 it may be somewhere in the middle because currently volume is going in and out you're not accounting for could yeah it could be 20 to 40 it could be yeah 35 or 50 depending on question when was the building empty was the building empty when you did your counts I'm not sure that's they know not to take the credit so the same thing not take credit correct I think the bigger question is the one about what about deliveries it doesn't seem to me that the methodology has been updated to handle the societal changes of deliveries as they um as they relate to this particular um uh project where we do anticipate a lot of delivery activity so you can try to find out anything about I think we already knew that yeah the point the point find out about the delivery track of course going back to your this discussion of the traffic counts did you look at other traffic accounts in area we did look at do data in the area um the the the atrs that uh that I was able to find there one further to the to the east uh by the shock right it's more than 10 years old I don't really find that to be reliable um there's another one up Anderson Hill Road that's a little bit closer that was from 2019 um and and our volumes were higher than those volumes whether that's you know it's not an Apples to Apples comparison because it's a little bit further away but um you know we we didn't find any any at any any Counts from dot that uh you know necessitated an adjustment on our part well I looked at the that is like 11 years old account in front of the shop the 2011 count yeah and I the um in the in the morning the counts were about third 11 years ago the counts were 33% higher M and in the PM the counts were about 10% higher I can't spec I can't speculate on 13 you know what the traffic patterns are 13 years ago I don't know the other suggestion I have is your firm worked for I think it was TV bank did a traffic study for that maybe you want to check those that was about five years ago okay so you're you're stating that the traffic there was more traffic 133 years ago than there is now there was more traffic 13 years ago then is thing was counted here more traffic in front of shoppr right than at this intersection shop k 13 years ago there's an and you may get to this so maybe I'm St but there there's another aspect about um congestion and it's like a rating there's like a rating system like this intersection has got a conjuction rating or P or level of service level of service is that yes so yeah and one of the reasons congestion is important if you're like heavily congested like I then you another 5% is way over the cliff you know it seems well that's reasonable 5% but if you're already at 100% or terrible and you add it it creates a problem conversely if you're not invested at all and you're put in 5% no deal right what do you find as the congestion situation sens and did was there any way to get a congestion assessment at the driveway itself right so I'll start with more of an explanation of level of service okay so we can uh you know make sure that we're all working with the same parameters here or level of service it's a it's a measure um you know of the the volume capacity on the roadway Network measure of delay and it rates from Level service a to F but not unlike a uh you know a report card where you're shooting for all A's and maybe a few BS uh Traffic Engineers we design for level of service c and d and that way we're not overbuilding our roadways right we're not widening uselessly um but we're also not inundating you know designing toward the andf where you know that that is a congestion State um and so this intersection at overall when you look at all of the movements going through the intersection operates at a level service C and C C C isn't c um and would continue to operate at that level of service with the additional traffic um for this project now at the driveway uh we break it down um really looking at the movements out of the driveway because those are the ones that experience delay the turning movement's in the right turn is essentially no delay and the left turn is simply wait for a gap uh but the Turning movements out operate uh in the morning at that level service C and in the evening and Saturday at level of service d as in do so those are still in that acceptable level of service range do for driveways allows you to go up to level service e uh in this case we're we're not at that that level of service on the roadway network but that's with the lower volumes correct so we we could take a look at it yeah you say the inpection of the traffic light is is C yes which is I I'm looking at your pendex that's 20 second delay a range to 35 correct um I have to say that anybody who's right to come down are in the afternoon especially about not when you scho going wait a lot longer than 30 20 to 35 seconds get to that interance yeah fact that traffic is often backed up all the way up towards P Prospect Street and up so there there's two factors there one it's of course the School dismissal crossing guards they play uh a little bit different role in you know protecting pedestrian safety as opposed to vehicular throughput two the mount Ary and Anderson HIll approaches are not prioritized by do so those in our peak hours right now with the crossing guards um you know feeling with fol dismissal but those approaches are at level service B whereas R 202 is at a b as a boy so B owning the signal prioritizes their corridors uh and so you end up with uh an overall se but side streets that do a little bit worse and a main line that does a little bit better in the afternoon coming down 202 going south yeah uh if you come out if you're coming down that section you can be delayed all the way back up to where uh the Old Kings one and sit there and traic and what you know one thing that drives people go all Colony avoid that interception but it's hard for me to believe that uh at the times that are actual peak times the level of service at on 202 uh that is a c or a d i waited minutes 10 minutes not 10 but five minutes to get through that intersection and and there's certain times where that can be the experience there's other times where it's a much better progression again it it is an average and it's the the analysis based on this configuration they want was really difficult for people mhm is when it's not at the average when it's the peak and and the r are the greatest of course if you added if you add a couple more seconds to a d or E it becomes really annoying to get through that intercept of course there there's another well when I I Qui look at your C if you look at the signal timings there's an an all red for pedestrians [Music] so that all all four approaches go red when somebody pushes one right correct which is not in your calculation I think that's the difference of why it just Falls over the edge of the capacity but your model we can examine that certainly we have The Pedestrian volumes we have the timing to make sure that's calibrated it's not just volume it's the Cycles yes we make sure that's if there's it's a 90 second cycle then you have 40 seconds per hour 40 cycles per hour then you have uh and then you take out two or three or four of those Cycles with that all red it it just creates that's where the problem is so presentation of L service C in my opinion is not valid calculation you got to add in let you progress to whatever you're that largely concludes I think the direct we covered we covered the on-site circulation access covered level of service trip generation components pretty thoroughly here um happy to take additional questions what is the line of sight expectation at the driveway exit iorry what's the line of sight expectation from the Department of Transportation at the driveway on this site just don't know have it don't have it written down and I'm trying to make sure that I'm remembering the right row and the column you can come back yeah I don't want to put the wrong answer apologize I'd like to know that and and it may depend on the highway yeah it depends on it's design speed mostly nice to know what that is design speed and grade yeah understanding that the properties changed ownership do we know um brought the question we s bacon for some time do we know what the ins and outs was a traffic study done by the previous owners that got transferred that could be used for comparison not that we're aware of but we'll check on that I don't typically see those in in land transfers for what it's worth any any more questions from the any professionals also could you could you plot the available site distance can you plot plus sectional the profile of the section to the left and to the right as you're coming out of the driveway yeah we can do that so we make sure that it meets the standard we can certainly do that I will assure you that there's not a better location for a side distance perspective we can do um professionals any but I'm sorry anymore there no more questions on the board right at the moment right so any questions from our professional V traffic engineer no Mr chairman I I would like to hear from the board's I would like to get a copy of these turning exhibits for the loading area and the driveway I think they were put up briefly on the board is that the lower driveway turning radius the one at the L1 or are you turning turning radius at the 202 well they had they had a a truck turning template how a truck would get into the loading area the loading area and then there was one how a passenger vehicle could get into the parking deck which was concern I'm sorry can I just yeah sorry thank you that was exhibit 83 yeah we'll get we'll get all the exhibits over to Mr provide Mr M will get all those over that so she can post them for the benefit of the public yep I I have one did you say that parking lots can be available for public paring besides the uh tenants and the what I mean by public parking I mean publicly accessible parking right the it's it's intended to cover parking for the retail and for the residents but in providing parking for retail you have to make it so a member of the retailing public can come in so somebody who looking for who wants to go for example to the Burnsville cing shop you can't find a parking space on 202 which is more likely than not right he's going to be able to park in that parking line even though he has no Commerce whatsoever to do that would be that would be more of a management uh Happ we just change his sign it says instead of parking in the burnner all Library Park you are going to meter it though as I understood you have testimony already metering which that's not questions about metering shouldn't be that more someone else right correct okay but rsis has a provision for5 per unit for visit par that's included in the 1.5 so is there a is there a component that includes visitor parking for the residential so our our plans right now don't have anything designated or Stripes but we would obviously have to comply with that requirement to do so the simplest way would be uh assigning the one space per unit and the remaining 0.5 per unit is available as visitor parking and the visitor parking doesn't have to be assigned visitor it just needs to be available for visitors yeah well I want to go through all of the circulation the lower parking levels how we're going to handle these kind of questions but I didn't seem that it was exactly your responsibility I think that through that I think that the assignment and and how those spaces are going to be allocated is um more more toward the applicant right on that um okay certainly they like a traffic engineer input but right okay but at this point I haven't designed anything or or allocated so I don't think it would be proper did you have any to the layout of the Rams on the parking level were did they ask you about how when they architect of the ramps and L1 and L2 did they ask you about that uh not directly I know that that AR consulted with Mr M from our office there's someone else I just don't want to all right so may I inquire who the someone else is because we were told we're just going to hear from an architect and and the civil engineer there'll be a a management representative Mr uh yes operation YK that would be that would be great um John I have the option I can either at for your Comm meance I can open this witness to the public for questions or we can stay the public questions of this witness on right uh you know jar I think I think it actually would make sense you you because Mr kak's coming back we knew that coming in because you just retained Mr Troutman uh today uh we've got some homework uh items that we need to do and I'm sure you know Mr trapman's going to review things I suspect he'll the professionals will probably have some conversation between now and the next meeting as well so maybe we hold those questions mrman has further maybe we just depart to the next meeting and makes available go to the next wit that would be your pleasure okay then the other side of the point would be if there are questions that could be answered at the next you know the next meeting like some of mine they could beone at the same time right so if you open it to questions tonight what do you guys want to do I got his opinion open the advantage open the witness now I'm sorry I hear the advantage open questions now is that if the public has questions that require more research we don't have them coming back a third time you know yeah that's my yeah we just why don't we just roll with questions I ask chairman and I'm just going to ask fing okay right now so all right so this is the traffic engineer p r u t m yeah can we take minutes we just do our court reporter well I think probably a number of people can we just do a five minute break uh can rest your fingers for a minute yeah okay because we can still hear your next witness I I don't want to violate our climing so all right try to make this a 5 minute break so that means you want me to explain okay so what how we're going to proceed I'm going to do the sof that streaming record what's that this is going to be off the r just letting them know how we're going to proceed what we intend to do is to have questions from the public of the traffic engineer for up to 20 minutes and there may be a lot more than that but that's what we're going to do because we do want to start the testimony of the architect this evening which we probably not get through but we want to get it started because we know all you want to hear about it so that's our current strategy on meeting meeting strategy so for the benefit of public can I add so there's no uh concern or question my understanding is all three witnesses will be back and members of the public will be afforded a full and fair opportunity to ask each and every one of those three Witnesses uh further questions uh as well as we have a as you have all heard the board has a traffic independent traffic consultant that the board retained to uh also ask questions uh and possibly have a report with respect to the traffic Engineering in the parking and then of course after questioning at some point there'll be opportunities for comment from the public right after all that part of the case is over members of the public will be sworn and so your comment has the weight of testimony equal to the weight of the testimony of all the other Witnesses so that's why we swear you with a lot of material so how are we doing Denise we're good we're good now thank you okay so joh so Mr corak is available for uh for questions and again just confirming everything Mr Warner just said uh Mr corak will be back um this 20 minute period we are not suggesting that's the the limitation will be fully available for questions if the public wanted to hold them to hear from the town's professional or for whatever other case but he's now available for questions all right so do any do any other public this Elite group here uh have questions for this with on traffic and okay come on come go there go to the spot okay we'll hopefully and you do have to give us your name and address but you don't have to be sworn in Diane Greenfield 15 oldwood Ro um oh um can I one more time sorry the address 15 oldwood Road uh you testified that the car that man road that two trucks about bit in there my question is when the third truck arrives where is it going to be waiting right it's a great question there's not I'll Stand Up um the the space in that area wouldn't accommodate that many trucks um we don't anticipate that many trucks being on the site at the same time um but that that's the layout of site if there was a restaurant there and there unloading food um or there or supplies um that's going to take some time I imagine there would be plenty times that there are going to be more than two trucks waiting to get in there may I suggest at the end of that you're saying isn't that isn't that correct certainly with the the retail use there are scheduled deliveries similar residential uses there are deliveries that are made to the residents however with the frequency of those uses the scheduling of them we wouldn't anticipate that level of truck traffic but if there were they would be sitting on manary road waiting for one of the trucks to do a k turn and maneuver around the other truck that's in there to get out don't want to speculate the hypothetical um I also don't think a truck would just sit on Mount AR Road blocking that full Lane of traffic surprised can I ask another question yes you can ask by way uh I know the sight line is improved from where it was currently how however when the cars come around from the light they're making the turn and they're going very very slow right now um when they have that extra space there they're going to be going much faster they'll be going up to 30 miles an hour if they're not speeding uh and the sight line will be better but have you taken into consideration The Accelerated speed of the cars and the and difficulty it's going to make for somebody making a leftand turn on to 202 across traffic over there right so the the improved sight line obviously puts you further away from that that Crest that vertical curvature um but part of that you know the roadway geometry those conditions mean that the car is accelerating it hasn't accelerated through that speed and so that's providing those Vehicles a little bit additional time um to to be able to see that car oncoming um and to to that extent this location does afford the best visibility for um Sidelines it's also bation that is directly specified in the Redevelopment plan okay thank you does model consider that the acceleration you know from the intersection fairly I know level service perspective or Seline somewhere like I guess the speed of the the model's kind of yeah the model counts for for Speed certainly um the sight lines and Mr simok requests the profiles that accounts the grade as well um and the grade does factor into um you know certain sight line requirements where uh an uphill approach requires less sight distance and that's usually reserved for for steeper slopes 69% you know if you're built on the side of a hill or something like that but um the the intent there is is that there's an acknowledgement that grade does impact site line so there was a previous testimony that there'll be on site man will there be an attempt or can you stipulate that the management company will schedule um the mass deliveries for the restaurants and the other tail space is that possible yeah we'll we'll speak to that when we come back and talk to operations it's good point uh another question from the public hi Mike Stevens 12 Woodland Road uh two questions one is um are left terms going to prohibited out of the into and out of the loading dock into and out of the loading dock [Music] um it's not explicitly signed but that's the intent is that the current configuration does not support that left turn mement just a follow is it possible the county is is going to limit you anyway and so you very very likely yeah it's just possible if they get the County information back may be deferred again that be something sorry can I can I get that again I'm just asking that be something stipulated by and and signed on site yes that's an affirmative yes stipulated as long as the county is good and I've never seen a county say no to no left turns so so now you're second so the engineer last week testified that truck could back up into the loading zone and showed a diagram of that you said that they wouldn't be doing that go ahead sorry so to clarify that the question is between the consistency of the testimony I assume to clarify the the first part right the the trucks headed north on Mount ARA Bear right into the loading area the the outdoor portion and then internal to the site back up into the loading zone or into the covered loading area underneath I believe the diagram correct me if I'm wrong the diagram showed a truck backing up into the loading zone a diagram and it showed what he said pulling it pulling up into the into the area into the open area and then backing into the toward the doorway basically that's not consistent yes that's correct wouldn't the template restrict the second truck in the turn into the loading zone and then wouldn't it take almost the full does it take the full wh load to circulate in and out right so to get into that covered loading area yes so therefore it would only be able to hold one truck I mean you you could stage too with more movements and there's a variety of size trucks vans Etc I don't want to say it's impossible to Stage that i' probably just take it we do one of the things we need to show I'm sorry we're going to figure out how best to do it so that it complies with food process right everybody here all the members of the public are we looking is that one of the exhibits that was previously shown uh is that exhibit truck was A3 if I recall correctly uh maybe we can have A3 put up on the board so everybody could see it and you can ask the question Paul you Paul you 83 I don't want the public or the board members to be left out that's the point that's everybody's got hear yeah so I'll go to the sheet one engineer is this exhibit A3 exhibit A3 the sheet one or two if iose two pages this is the first p first page okay and Mr Stevens has some questions I recall that that was explain that that truck was backing up and that's what it looks like to me and that's what a lot of people here remember all right so I I will expain can I ask my question yeah I just want other people to stop please let Mr Stevens ask this question so the be if you could confirm that and then if you do confirm that that is a truck backing up can can you explain how that's going to happen when there are 10 cars behind it that are not going to allow it to right so I understand the confusion but the truck will not be backing from Mount AR Road into the dock so here's the progression I can use the mouse you're starting at the you know the South End headed north on Mount Ary Road and you could see on the truck how uh the back tires you have the two you know the the two sets of tires you when your your rear tires on a on a truck are typically your double set and the front tires are the single set of tires you see how it's a thicker Tire here and that helps us Orient uh you know the the rectangle that we are showing as the truck and so that truck Maneuvers makes the right turn in and then straightens out in this loading area backs into the loading dock area can unload and then at time of departure pull straight forward again and out Mount AR Road and you can see here how it's continuing to face North with the front tires up front and the rear tires in the back okay is it conceivable that the truck is too big to be able to do that there are trucks that are too big to be able to do that this truck the s30 can navigate the space does that you would agree to do the 40 but come back to see it's s30 is 30 feet long from bumper to rear bumper um one more when you when you did you show the Stop Bar and striping on uh Mount AR Road yes be happy to the two Lan next question from the public of the traffic engine come on har Hazelton I'm sorry I yes it's Carrie k r r y Hazelton h a s l t o n mbrook Road just thinking about this um design with the loading dock so for this building the only way that a truck is going to be able to access the building is Northbound on Mount AR there's not going to be any left turns either out or in so how will the truck driver will there be some way of informing them that they need to be coming in off 287 in Mount Ary North so that we don't get into a situation with trucks that are expecting that they're going to be able to come South on Mount Ary and pull in um or alternatively I wouldn't think ideally making a left on the 202 Northbound and then pulling into the residential driveway is that the backup and if so is there enough clearance for a truck to get in there underneath do their job and get out right so the the truck circulation question is something that we encounter at hundreds of sites where you have a turning restriction at the driveway anytime you have a turning restriction at a driveway you're not able to to make that turn into the driveway from that direction so it's the same principles appli here they need to come from Mount AR road to the South likely coming off that exit in 287 um and uh utilize the loading area in that way to that end no we do not the second question no we do not um anticipate or forecast those trucks utilizing the uh the residential commercial the parking structure uh access drive for passenger vehicles so when an Amazon truck comes North eastbound on 202 and gets to the light and makes a right or sees that there is no truck access there what is there they're going to then there there's not a lot of options getting back where they need to go North binley Avenue these logistics companies have very comprehensive routings uh understanding of access especially on multif family projects where you have multiple clients being served at one particular location it yeah logistics companies have a very well open thank you question follow today sure so just an Amazon van not an Amazon truck they can't pull in and turn left coming out it's still going to be no left turn for them as well at this point we're looking at the left turn restriction for them as well okay I mean we're we're open to discussion from the board on it but that was my understanding from the stipulation thank it it also ties to deliveries as part of it is how many of what style trucks are going to be in this loading zone sure that speaks to and what other deliveries are there and many of the Amazon Vehicles may have another way of on premise of delivering something but that's all part of the discussion and and and the companies can certainly limit this the height and length of the trucks that they dispatch to with the but still the important thing is okay how many trucks are going to be in that loading zone how does it work when two arrive all these questions are still important to answer okay um next question all right Aaron Duff 51 Crest View Drive in Burnsville uh you testified that the um passenger vehicle deliveries uh or U door Dash things like that would be utilizing the residential driveway to come down they have an option too they have an option to they don't have an option to use the loading zone they do have an option to use the um we're talking passenger vehicle yes yeah the option to use the the ramp down to the garage area not load an option to utilize the ramp down to the the parking area and if they want to be making their deliveries picking up their Affairs somewhere other than on an active roadway they would have to use that is that correct correct so my question is and I'm sorry that you also testified that it's a metered lot gate I didn't hear there's a gate where you pay before you get in tiet ticket I would have to defer those questions to operations how they we actually have an answer for that and we will speak to operations for those for those short deliveries the rubhub delivery and the accommodations that would be made they wouldn't be paying a meter a meter rate for those types of deliveries but we'll speak to that at a at a future meeting through operations okay understand it's important but it's yep scope yep no it's a good it's a good point don't get your off all right Jerry uh sorry NE 36 Amar can you please spell your last name sir n e g r i thank you I have a question I I haven't heard the address of how you're going to unload for these stores on the other end where they going to where's that truck going to is going to unload in that loading dock in the residential area and then walk they're going to walk the products all the way around is that how they're doing it so I will sort of two parts to this okay the first part is the the loading operations will take place in that loading zone the second portion is related to the movement of goods on the site I will defer that to the architect like with the full know routings and and design of the building okay it's important yes last question okay try make it a good one then con over um on the 16 burs Avenue so I live right off of Mount Ary Road and the loading dock is like a concern for me um so my concern is that because the trucks can only come in on Mount Ary um we all know that that's you know that's not going to be reality because trucks are going to get diverted off 287 when there's Mount are is backed up which happens often if there's an accident on 287 trucks do not always come in on 287 they'll be coming in uh from northern 287 and coming down like you know through the main part of Bernardsville they'll be coming up on 202 um also and wanting to make that right hand turn is there any type of traffic study that can be done or projected that will kind of show these Mis rooted trucks that now have to turn around somewhere so that they can be coming down Mount Ary road because if anybody who lives in that area knows there's just all little side streets and neighborhoods so I'm wondering what the impact on those neighborhoods is going to be for these trucks that have not been told you must come down Mount Ary because they're not they're going to come in from all different directions and go oh I can't turn in there and they're going to want to turn around fast because they have delivery schedules so that's that's my concern I don't know if there's a traffic study that can be done or projections that can be made for that you know based on your number of deliveries that you are guessing I think it's going to be a little bit higher based on my little Street and the deliveries that we get but I'm just concerned about the local neighborhoods and the impact that these trucks might have on them understood and I think uh something for us to do would be coordinate with uh the board's traffic engineer to help understand that it's worth having it's worth having a section or discussion that says for trucks approaching from each of the various locations what's the expected path people don't realize when a truck approaches from uh West only west and south they're not supposed to come to the intersection they're supposed to go up clar that's the only Road they're allowed to take and most people wouldn't know that that's but it's important that that be included as and I agree with you collaboratively as a discussion of how TR consequences rooting consequences would be expected to be handled um I know you say well they can just route them but it's like well does that mean they have to turn on white neck and go up and go over what are they going to do so all right last spell last c o n o v e r so this witness will be available in the future for more questions um but now we would like to take a shot at um allowing the architecture Witness you need to swear ra right you swear to God our testimony about to get truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you Mr Smith can you please provide the board a brief summary of your educational professional background licenses you hold good I'm uh an architect for approximately 40 years graduate of Y University um have worked in a variety of types of projects for Robert am Stern Architects our nationally known firm the among my projects have been highend uh residential projects the Museum of American Revolution in Philadelphia projects for several universities like Harvard and um I have a particular interest in in town planning I'm sorry in what town planning and your license license in New Jersey and New York and about 14 other states they always ask the question your license current it is I just I just read so thank you board member some off you're stealing all my fund no fun so I thought I would give you than they I thought I would give you a quick walk through the the plans that they aren't not necessarily self explanatory um and we started the bottom with the the lower level parking plan and these are the plans submitted these are the plans that are submitted more than 10 days in advance of today correct these are have been submitted for a long time right and the date is last revive I don't think they're revised I'd like to refer to these plans as the Baseline plans for this un because it's original it's the vanilla original stuff justr is it September 13 2023 I'm sorry can I get is it September 13 2023 yes with a revision of 126 24 Mr Warner why don't we just just to be clear here why don't we just Mark why don't we just mark them anyway and that way there's no question F and I think4 you should be I think we did no know what we didn't do any new ones no because we just showed on we already A4 could be the whole compendium of the last revised January 2624 architectural plans however many sheets there are where does it go from a100 to a300 okay underne CES are posted on our web then if they were submitted then yes they're there yes so where where professionals with printing these out themselves just to be clear because they I don't believe they've been submitted well now they're marked and and and please ASAP so they could be on the website if they're not already up there all right so not particularly interesting but the the the thing to know is that this is this level is completely underground so it is effectively along the the the railroad track line it is one level this level is one full level below that and effectively along Morristown Road or 202 it's it's two full floors below grade so I will go to the next hope oh wait a minute do you just want to go through all the sheets for perspective first is that what you're doing well explaining each one I I thought it would be best to explain in detail the next one I'm sorry which way should I just navigate the mouse there can't the wall makes it so I think the the one Flor plan of the garage that requires the most explanation is this one which is it is approximately the level of the loading area and and the level of Mount Ary Road at the at the at that corner here and that there's an an pretty much an entire FL grade change between the the north east corner of the site on morrist toown and this one so that that's approximately so like level 409 411 actually at the at the just where the driveway comes out and the level of of this loading area here at moristown road is 399 so it's 12 to 13 ft of difference between those two elevations um my colleague Paul had noted that one of the optimizations we did was actually to raise this level about foot and a half which allowed us to shorten the ramp um that's in this gray area down from Morristown Road and one of the advantages that that did gave us is the ability to have a direct access for pedestrians from this parking level to the corner paza on the intersection so you are able to without using an elevator and so we imagine that these are actually the primarily the the retail Park parking spaces a person able to just actually go directly onto this onto this space so some of the question I know there were questions about you know how to how to how to retail Parkers you know know where to go and do do they have access to an elevator in fact they don't need it and so you so then to see this area here this is the this area here is the loading the enclosed loading do and I'm sorry to interrupt but can you try to speak directionally so that if and when anybody reads the transcript you'll understand what over here and over there means okay right I'm it's hard to explain so the uh uh this is the loading area and I just lower left hand corner is the is the is the loading area and this we talked about how the the trucks can back up in here going actually zoom in on that spot so you can see it more clearly adjacent to the Loading area is is additional um space which we imagined will be part of receiving packages and also provides a way to get into the into the retail and also adjacent to this is the service elevator for the whole building and the uh the bottom of the trash Sho so there are two trash shs one for recycling one for trash there's compactors at the bottom of of that these have been actually based on some of the projects that we tour that Advance has done and the larger building this this pretty much the same size um trash and compactor uh locations and those will be able to be taken out and and picked up by a trash a trash truck again out of the same in the same location and those are completely covered and screened from public view question about the service is that it's internal of the garage is that intended for cars or is that walled off it's walled off and some of the things we're looking at are um whether some of that space should be used for a package room for example you know um this is a this is an issue and I my clients will talk about that in operations later things do are evolving and each of their apartment buildings have had a little bit different answer to that so we've reserved that space to be able to deal with how much goes to that and how much we want to dedicate to getting the uh service requirements for the for the uh retail uses can I ask on that with the garbage you're saying there's a garbage shooting compactors and I assume that's for the residential aspect of the project you have a restaurant you have retail where is your garbage for that it is it's assumed to be in this area so a restaurant has to they they have access to this level and I will point that out in a moment from and you have capacity along with 68 residences some two and three bedrooms to also manage restaurant waste no the restaurant waste would be separated sear so it is in that that wedge this labeled service and me there's a whole question of whether there be restaurants in this because stipulate to in terms of retail in parking equipment so parking parking will affect restaurants it's a great question but there there's even a more interesting basic question about whether restaurants will be part of this I have one really important question for you which is this is a deluxe super premium residential facility and you're going to make me walk the farthest possible that you could have picked to drop my garbage down a shoot it's the absolute worst location from a res 's perspective in terms of where you're telling me I have to drop my garbage and recycling what was in your head the it is it virtually impossible to the the shoots have to be to lead to compactors and the compactors really cannot be anywhere else on this side can how big are the [Music] compactors well they s in that room they fit in that room well how do you get them out of that room question no they're they they roll they're roll out they they are they are this is the the way that Advance has done it in other apartment this is a significant architectural problem yeah in terms of degrading the value of this project which we care about and makes it harder to sell these units and rent them and I gave you the answer to this yes and you need to look at it again and say okay I'm pretending to be a renter of this where do I want to drop my garbage and it isn't where you got it it is not the no ideal place for it but I really terrible it's the worst place it is it is literally impossible to get a trash truck to into other places on that and I gave you the answer they may not have given it to you I did I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm just professional my professional opinion is that it it is Impractical get a truck in that place and provide the number of parking spaces we need to and to provide forget that that's not true it's un I'm saying this point is one of many that are unacceptable this this degrades the value and the profitability of this project and as architect there are a number of concerns like this that reduce the the lucrativeness of this facility and we're partners with you we lose when you don't rent and that's really special and you've picked with the whole design you've picked and this is just one aspect you pick the worst possible location for trash and there are other ways of handling it I beg to defer but well you can defer but I defer with you you know and I gave the it's not like I said oh it's terrible we understand we hear the we'll move on because I want it so I we want to explain the the circulation of the garage as well yeah so cars come down the ramp and there's a control point and then to continue to the lower level they take this Middle Bay and go down and it goes down half a level this is half a level below and that continues on down to the lower to the lower level so effectively this area here is flat and that's the area that as I mentioned before we can lead you directly to the uh retail retail out out outside to get to the retail space uh just in support of your statement and and explaining it that people need to understand because it's hard to visualize but what he just said was you come down the driveway you go a bit to the right on the bottom you go a bit to the left rather and to get to the lower level you go down that rant to a a mezan level a mid level which is where his Mouse's cursor is right now that's kind of in the middle of the two flors and you proceed to the right and then you go down from the Mis down to the lower Lobby that's how it's structured and instructed So It's just tough to it's that's the way it is it's tough to visualize a bit but in the in the top of the drawing you're basically looking at a kind of mezanine floor between the L1 floor and the lo2 floor my question is why didn't you circulate it the other way why didn't you come in make a right hand turn go down the short ramp to the mezanine and then take the long ramp down to L2 that would have shortened the flight of stairs up to the street for the users that that are going from the mid mezzanine to the to the street level because from a traffic perspective you don't want to immediately make a turn anyone plans a garage you you want to get in the garage before you're making a turn to the to the to the ramp and vice versa when you're coming up the ramp not making a very sharp left turn to get get out of there suffice it to say this this gave us the most I I understand that was just it's an optimization and then when we go through and I love what you did with the upper Northwest porner in know the exit we go through how parking is going to work for retail for guests or visitors and or tenants and we'll go through that in detail it'll P out and what percentage of the aisles are dead end aisles yeah the one on the one you have the one immediate that's you have two on this floor right and so effectively what percentage of the cars are two de this is1 right so just the one on the west side is dead end well the one on the west is dead end and this is this is yeah it is oh oh that's the little mini ramp up right that no the the one on the east is the mini ramp up it goes up slightly give you head that's a dead end as is this the the part that is presumably leading for the the ret I'm sorry you were talking at the same time I didn't get the and we can walk through the details later but one of the things I want to understand is how tenants will access the elevators so tenants will access the elevators from from this from this area you're going to make them walk up to the mezzanine to get in it's down to the down to the well or up from L2 you can get to it you there's space space below there's another elevator access on the lower there [Music] is the elevator has another stop yeah it has another stop below that y so for L1 they need to walk down to the mezan to get to the elevator the resal which which is I think and it's purposeful just to answer it's purposeful to kind of say that the the eastern half of the Eastern 2third of this is the residential parking and that's about the proportion that we expect to have so that's what's going to lead you directly into the apartments I understand and these these uh sorry finished floors about 10t AP front right yeah and then how thick is the structure they're about 10 ft apart and so you you have we're allowing ourselves 2 and 1 half ft for structure and pipes and it's not a it's not a pre-cast tea garage my question is the grades of the ramp mhm because you have the ramp in the middle is um 90 ft 60 6.7 6.7 or 6.6 percent percent great okay that was my question what's the grade of the rants yeah that's that's the standard for a parking garage is 6.6 per. for a park or park on ramp okay I'm sorry for a park on ramp I have a question about the ramps are they two-way yes it's two-way it's Park on it's a it's a you know you've been in garages where it's cars on either side they're wide enough to be 18t and 24 feet in the middle see to visualize that on this yeah because if they get too steep then the doors trouble in you you're not allowed to make them that sorry you're not allowed to you're not allowed to make them too steep so it is it is a you're at about a Max yeah but it's it is it is industry standard for all all parking garages that anyone does I I don't think the elevator can work here um but we can validate it with you so if you go to your L2 floor level saying there will be an elevator stock correct on theow level what's the what's the elevation of that elevator door approximately what do you think it is three the elevators actually I the entrance to the elevator is on this level we're showing this is basically showing two levels at once so you're saying all access from L1 and ll2 will be through that elevator door those elevator doors wherever I par from no because there's actually there's two there's two different there's two different levels that are shown not you can get to the elevators at the top of this short bit and by the time you're here you're at the full level you can't get to it from there no you you are because you're down you're down a full level below this door is the dark line that goes wall that's a wall that's a wall yeah so the the the the ramp is going up to on the right side and that's getting you to a really effectively a mezanine level it's about three three and a half feet above and the other level is is 9 fet below that so I'm looking at L I'm looking at ll1 yeah so I park in the St on the right yeah other side of the wall oh on the ramp this this part that's an amp that's an uamp that's at 6.7 also yeah so if I par if I'm parked over there how do I get the there you walk in this door here and then if you want to get by the time you're at this mid level my questions yeah okay okay so now that's how I get to there now I'm on the mezanine Lev Bob the mezanine level on the other side of the wall on the other side of the wall now how do I get to the elevator there because that level is sorry I'm going back to the lower level it it these parking spaces are shown on both plans and they are floor apart because this is this part is a half level down and this area on the Upper Floor is not quite a half level up so there's enough space to get elevator doors on both in both places no so now the you say get the elevator by going I put the wall there I'm sorry yeah no it can't work it doesn't work three levels yeah doesn't work the ramp up you get crushed on the ramp up you don't have full headro parti head room on the ramp up it's not a full floor need to an elevator yes didn't my architect just speak to it clarify you're basically going up not quite a half level on the on the stub up and you are full half level on this on the on the at the mezanine so you have a full floor of distance between those two spaces that split scenario the elevator can't be at the mezzanine it is at the mezzan this is the mezan come off you can't do an L2 mezzanine and L1 Upstream with an elevator do work the doors don't open properly and it's a long it's ramp yeah you show on that right aisle you show the [Music] up see up it's the Min let's call it no but this is this is down this is going down this is this the area at the top of this plan I'm zoom out a bit okay but it's a slope floor it's a SL floor from this point this point down this is ll2 but this these plans show this area in both plans correct because it's the mezzanine it's the mezzanine so on this floor you can get to it from the side here and on the four above because you've gone up 3 and2 ft you're able to get to it effectively a full elevator stop above where you went in if you'd like us to to Pro provide a section diagram I'd like to it out right yeah I'm sorry to rightly I didn't hear spot grades it out withot elevation our report on level one you come in that ramp up is only 27 ft long before you hit the handicap parking spaces at 6 you come up 1.8 ft so there's some issues that have to be worked out it's not a half level no no it's not it's it's crunching you against the ceiling of the ground floor units you're right yeah yes it's saying it's being creative and it's saying there's space here if we run this ramp up cuz we're doing the ramp down below it right so if we just run the ramp up in this spot we can kind of scoot you know against the ceiling and we could kind of fit a couple spaces there and and maybe we can get the elevator to work so Bob bry's point is that the handicap has to be 2% access right the handicap is on the mezzanine it's not in that but but the rout of them has to be yeah I'm sorry the original plan had handicapped there I think in youber bu you've enhanced it so that's okay don't have that I once again don't think it's satisfactory for an apartment complex of the significance and importance that the elevator be situated that way that people have to walk that far to it and um have given you the the answer so degrades the value of the project were there other question were there anything else you wanted to say about L1 no and I there two other elevators shown yeah yeah one is the service elevator for the residential building so that's move in move out too small but got to make you'll make it bigger I'm sure and that's the one that's by the service stock right yeah and the other elevator is to provide to for the retail users to get across the garage and use that get wears if it were a restaurant things up to the up to the corner so could you discuss how the goes from the service do to the the old Palmer building right the existing building right and the the new so the old Palmer building would have a as it does now a door on the South Side there will be an opening in this wall so you can walk across the parking to get to that other service elevator so that that retail space can be serviced so the service for the retail other than the existing building has to go the parking that's the way they would go yeah yeah they would leave the service area that's in the lower left hand corner on a cart whatever and they you know a motorized thing and they would go right over to that door that's at the bottom of the service storage that has got there you go right through that door and then you have access to the storage facility for retail so that that t-shaped storage area where on the top the St that's storage for the retail that's storage or additional space for the retail that's what they recommended so is that included in the gr square footage no no so then how from that that storage space does it get to the re if you have to bring if you're bringing packages and deliveries into that area how is it getting to the retail that's that would be on the right side of the plan mean the next the next floor plan the next floor plan will show the level that's right above this where you can see and you're asking about the retail that's in the north yes East which would be the next but but when the question is we got to get upstairs so I guess you take it up the elevator well goes up the elator what does it get it just just goes up on door correct it gets you to the to the retail FL oh oh sorry he mean the upper are you talking the northwest corner elevator yeah or are you talking this real northwest corner that's just an elevator for that facility that's it done it's internal right we when we go to the next picture see the stor over here there ret right so question you got the goods you get get up to I'm sorry one at the time the question I we're discussing is if you have Goods that are delivered at the service stock pushed through the garage to the area Mark service storage on the uh northwest corner how does the then how does the goods that are in that area move to the next floor and over to the retail that's on the that that would well you're hypothesizing that retail goods are going to get there well how is it get well you just bring them out on the you know you don't do it on the ground yeah well it would actually be possible to relocate that elevator and provide a way to to to get across this Archway and have a little s back back service forward that's also solved in the optimization I gave you that and the question another question the Northwest Blue Area m is that all retail yes this this area so and you may have enhanced this did you remove the fitness center no I on that picture since here is off it's off the road so it used to be the original the bottom of it used to be in the court used to be the fitness center but the revised plans they've relocated which is an in so what is the what is the my question is what is the total grow square footage of the ret Rob do you remember it's 9,9 is about 99,900 8600 feet of of of retail but if you measure that those blue areas that's the 9,2 230 with the second floor of the Palmer build I don't think so because the storage is all included because that's meets the definition of grow square [Music] footage but it's not it's not we were not counting that sort area but it's based on the ordinance and the regulations of the we we'll confirm it we'll confirm yeah EAS to do because I was looking at the engineering Plan and there's differences in square um so here we are at the ground floor right so this is this is the the the street Frontage which is pretty much flat where the you as you know there is a significant amount of grade change that Paul mentioned earlier and so the all the the retail spaces obviously open onto the onto that space on on both streets and the the tenants of the building come through this Archway and they enter a Lobby and immediately find the elevators that go up upstairs not not Crossing they're under they're under cover from the streets and they're not going past other apartments to get to the elevators so you mentioned the tenant just to clarify so that is still a tenant only Courtyard that is recommendation I'm sorry I didn't hear your your question I I was asking if the courtyard was tenant we we imagine the control point is somewhat back not on the not on the on the street so some of that some of that Archway is available to the public no it would be available with Windows for retail to show their wear it's not publicly available but it's useful for retail person yeah I think the the remainder of FL plan I think is fairly straightforward the the the courtyard is flat flat and meets ADA requirements for being able to to use it which the current site has moments where it is steeper than 5% who who Ada tenants [Music] ADI yes so couple of people we it's a regulation it is a regulation we are required to provide any any sort of outdoor space has to yeah okay the doors have to be and the doors are not shown on this drawing for retail where where where are the doors the doors we don't know how many retailers there might be so there is storefront along that whole thing and and you will be able to put it a door wherever it makes sense depending on the Tendencies and it's walk through inside the door or is there any is the door that opens Interior right there'll be a doorway into the retail in storefront door doors in storefront and it's not marked on that in this sheet the plan that's noted as the shows um SE on the northwest or cting area yeah what do you call those little you in the cour you get little little nooks or something seating areas are seating areas okay it's on the engineering plan they're they're noted on the engineering plan but they're drawn on this it shows on the engineering plan proposed Cafe seating so provide parking for the cafe sea is it's these five tables it's it's it's in a covered area that's adjacent would be accessible from the upper level of the Palmer building so is that is that grow square square footage I'm not I'm not following Mr s I'm concerned about the parking requirement for uh for having table amenities well restaurants are one for four seats and and Retail is one for 300 right so I'm saying that area if it's seating for a restaurant if it's 5 it's 20 seats you need five more par so I hear we asked you some didn't we ask you for some elevations or explanation of that area that this looks especially now you got a door under it right I mean so that's cool but what did it look like so you're envisioning that that area those five tables right the top five tables they're associated with Palmer second floor correct they're an amenity for that y retail building and they're not for the there might a window I guess to the right in the other but it's not expected that anybody in the blue to the right of those tables is accessing those tables correct that's that's correct it may I just don't back part of that might be might be a restaurant or it could go the other way the there are similar levels a bag old place all I think is whatever it is it's just helpful we understand what the is flexible then that should be the intent but I think that is the intent is in terms of flexibility we don't have any set plan for those tables we don't know who our tenants are going to be but it's illustrative of of an area it's not open to the quote to get to that you would be need to be a patron of the uh retail or whatever correct and would then have access to it it's not like I'm walking along the street and I got a sandwich and I want to go sit down okay all right well this chairman do we I don't we need a motion it's up to to extend whether you want to break or extend um well is this a do you want to just do you have much more run through the other plans and then actually answer that that question of what that space is okay I'll take a motion to extend per 15 [Music] minutes all right I have one more question on this the mail room is that's just US mail or is that going to be for packages as well it's just us mail just US mail pack just come down to the yeah and again I think this is an operations thing that is when is found that this it has evolved a lot do the apartment on the um first floor facing the courtyard do they have access right you walk out from your apartment right into theard yeah the ones that on the south Wing have little Gardens and it should also be noted that the elevation of those floors is about a foot above the courtyard just so it's and that actually is partially due to a way to provide additional Headroom where that ramp if you remember the ramp underneath underneath the the north south way goes so those are like little patios they're little patios but not on not on this end because it didn't seem very nice okay so was that the only two okay I these are fairly straightforward just Apartments well so what we're seeing here is the second and thirre load now [Music] yeah 15 feed up know so you second and third flooor so difference between the front yes the the first floor is the is the courtyard level so it's it's it's flat right there is a basement that become you know effectively the parking becomes a basement as it moves down along Mount are it becomes exposed by one level and along the entire South Front don't I should get get to those the fourth floor is slightly different because we have the the lower half of a gamble roof if if will so that there are Roes that come in some of them are are full on Gables but most of them are relatively Steep and you zoom in spots you can see these areas that are really too low to stand in they're gray those are in full gable gable Roots once again for Value we do want you to consider gble roof not abled so architecturally we seriously need you to look at using gamma roof because this is one of the reasons it devalues the project by having this kind of incursion into the space for the enrs the fourth floor is obviously where the most impact is for roof treatment there are some differences in the fourth floor oh there was there like some one bedrooms up there right on the Eastern enclosure it's not it's partially due it's partially due the on the fourth floor no it's Al partially due to the impacts of the roof and the roofs have of the roofs and the roofs have an impact you know no matter what they're what they are you know one of the there was a question about this the the bump out and yeah it is specifically designed to be a sort of a feature and be a thinner element that's coming against the street as opposed to the full 60 foot depth of the county just coming along and knocking off the edge of your building that's all got build Palmer building every little bit helps so you know the roofs are designed so that you know they look like a they look like a a the lower half of a Gamel because you normally can't see the top half of a Gamel but it creates uh these wells in which we are able to put all of the mechanical equipment so it is not visible from outside this would include any any generators that we have to have and they were able to be basically disguised completely from the public View and there's enough room for them so that's not enough mechanical units to support the number of units you have yes and I want you to talk about the Terrace and why there is a Terrace and all of the aspects of it as opposed to the Mechanicals which do need to be placed somewhere because they won't fit where you've got them well for retail and for those units in the front for no Mechanicals vrf units with with will fit on that side we have we're doing an 11 story building the same ratio and the same amount of roof and those units do fit there okay so this is a conceptual drawing basically let's keep it at that there there is enough lo I just there I will to say there is enough room for the mechanical equipment for all of the apartments um to to be located on that in that spot it's just not on the plans these little boxes are me yeah you haven't shown us on PL there only about 40 box in it yes brf units don't need to be one per unit and Retail yeah okay that's going to be interesting with cell too okay so what is access to the roof Terrace the roof Terrace is only accessed from the three apartments that are directly underneath it because we really can't we don't want to make the building taller and provide erress and elevator elevator access there so wow be any instu there access to the gr how do you I'm sorry can I get that again um everybody was asking the question so you have to if if you don't have elevator access to the roof access is from the three Apartments you said no for the roof Terrace wow so if you have to do a major repair the tenant has to allow access to their apartment no okay it's a roof it's just the roof Terrace area it's not the mechanical the mechanical area okay I'm sorry am I correct I was I was confusing them I so the access to the mechanical area is through through the stair and the the top you know trap door on the top of the elevator a trap door on the top of the elevators to get larger pieces of equipment in now I'm not saying what I cut you I'm not saying how you get the a to you said it's from the three units but how do you get there there no doors sh downstairs hold Martini instru onof I don't I think it's it's a sort of place that you go if you want to we all know this is another thing that people are very fond of having be able to say they have access to some roof Terrace and we will have a spiral stair out of the you know three spiral stairs out of those un to get up there so it's a amenity three head houses just had a question regarding the the plan that was originally um submitted and the plan that you're showing here the the width of the mechanical area in the roof terce is much wider um are you decreasing the angle of the RO or I I'm just wondering why there's such a difference um I think we have it's hard to I mean this was the first time we're seeing that plan but I'm looking at the plans that were submitted previously and there's a clear difference in those Dimensions I'm wondering why or how it's being achieved with the roof line or we've just been more careful and in the way that we we've drawn that based on the actual sections The Beneficial side effect of gamb roofing is exactly that it gives you the option to have a more vertical wall as part of the RO you know the first part of the rout to have the curve um be pretty vertical over the the face right and and the end result is you get the benefit of of a larger yeah top of the roof right say and you're apparently leveraging that so yeah well I would actually say we are doing that that is exactly what we're showing is something steep it's the bottom half of a Gamel and we're just not doing the invisible part Yeah Yeah from the streets invisible though I mean that's that's an aesthetic thing then but I think the street the the The Gables that are shown on the street are different have a different angle than the than that those I you really need you really need to think about that um there are a number of architectural questions that are going to be related the fire safety and so for um you know we do need to continue and I think so therefore this I mean trying to you know yeah unfortunately the laptop died back so I don't know we're natural break I think that became a natural break point how don't we make that the natural break chairman okay um now you mentioned something about availability yeah so we uh we actually are not available on the 14th next meeting date is the 28th I understand Mr Troutman uh is also available that night so we'd like to pick back up again on the 28th of March every and all the questions oh you'll give us an extension at time to actually the end of the month of March uh yes okay you just shoot a one liner I'll shoot a one liner and then we going to the 28th I I'll actually make it the end of April there you go so we don't thank you and for the benefit of the public this matter is going to be carried without further notice to the March 28 2024 meeting 7:30 p.m. of the same room very good thank you everybody appreciate the time thank you I have one question did we take appropri I'm sorry we're good done have a great night we're not yet I think there's a question asending we have to go to to Executive no carrying on business so everybody can please file out quietly or stay if you want but we're still trying to do a little more business right right yeah just for the Mr chairman to respond to the inquiry by Vice chairman that's right uh the um the equinet matter that is a pending application that us an extension of time to act through February 29 2024 Denise is going to contact them immediately uh to find out whether they are uh either going to further extend our time to act beyond the end of February or alternatively uh withdraw with without prejudice their application or what their intention is uh and I'll work with her in that regard and we'll report back I asked about two we if they're not going to extend the time to act they're going to they're going to withdraw with without prejudice uh or or they might say they have an automatic approval yeah that's they're not they're not going to say they have an automatic approval because if they uh if they don't extended time to act uh uh then then uh we can we can have the board uh have a special meeting and dismiss without prejudice their application but it's it's or with prejudice we don't have a whole lot of time so we got to get going on this we have we we we need to and you have the notice and notice 48 hours why don't we have a resolution to say what we intend what the possibilities are we can have uh right now if the board wishes we can have a verbal resolution that in the event the applicant uh does not extend time to act Beyond February 29th 2024 at least through to and including our next meeting thereafter uh then this board uh will deem the application uh uh withdrawn well dismissed without PR for would it be denied there are options um I um it's not my motion to make I threw one out there for you if you want it a dismissal without prejudice I believe would satisfy the concern is the dismissal AR or their call a dismissal is AR withdraw is their okay so we have four surviving so we can provide for dismissal without prejudice or with prejudice but I would I would recommend without prejudice uh in the event uh they do not extend the time to act till at least our next meeting and they have to and they have to do so prior uh onor before before February 29th Mr har you just make that Mo I did I'll second we could resolution we'll do a roll call is it only for the eligibles uh there only four eligible no well uh this is on the on the extension other than is anybody refused on that now so everybody can vote this is just on whether or not to extend it's a procedural it's a procedural vote it's not a sub vote members they're going to be hearing they're going to be potentially B whatever you say well I apprciate the short V you want you want to vote you want a a roll call roll call please okay and just before was Mr har made the motion and Mr McQueen that second right okay thank you Mr uh Mr Miss Gardner yes Miss Gall yes Mr Graham yes Mr harwitz yes Mr McQueen yes Mr simov yes Mr Walden yes and Mr zarino yes what Jack supposed to do any response to that email they're transmittal can you just look at it again and see I I'll just yeah I don't know if Jack was supposed to or not but we have a resolution now in place thank you for uh the contingency okay so they're showing up in four weeks correct 28 yeah so are we and J's gonna He he'll do you the 28 with whatever what um is there anything for the we need to to discuss anything for next Denise ping after we anticipate having anything for for the next meeting obviously I just have to check the calendar as to when the um and in theory could that end up being on the 14 well that's a theoretic I would my recation would be to cancel don't cancel yet no no no no just a clarification I know I'm going to be out west again that week the did we change so we can no longer attend virtually as the current you can attend but you can't vote you can't participate but if we're not voting that day and you certify that you were on the the live stream then you can pick up the next week like you did this week yeah you don't have to be watch it have to have a little I'll I'll keep my that evening you can still ask question I can still ask questions yeah I thought we couldn't oh how are we gonna do what what we did with we did it once to right you can't do that on YouTube that's the problem oh I'm sorry you can't technologically if you can't do it never mind secret I was answering what I thought legal question techological question we did have pseudo hybrid we had we had a a private Zoom yeah I think for John it's okay and and that allowed Jeff to participate it was not a public that wasn't on a matter that was on the administrative um reorganization reorganization that's fine I'm certain that this will one meeting more I can send Jeff any questions that I have burning I'm certain the team will ask them and then I'll just pick back all right you done you drop the bathroom you you could