##VIDEO ID:_fE_OCxMDMc## all right good evening everyone we're going to call the meeting to order it's the Bridgewater Township Zoning Board of adjustment August 13th 2024 regular meeting uh both adequate electronic notice of this meeting specifying the time place and manner in which such notice was provided in accordance with the open public meetings Act njsa 10 4-6 specifically on January 9th 2024 proper notice was sent to The Courier News and the Star Ledger and file with the clerk at the township of Bridgewater and posted on the municipal bulletin board please be aware of there only Board of adjustment policy for public hearings no new applications will be heard after 9:30 p.m. and no new testimony will be taken after 10: p.m if you're able please rise for the salute to the flagge Ali to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all miss propes good evening we can have a roll call please chairman F here here Mr Sweeny MREs here Mr here Mr G here Mr SEC here Mr kol here Mr here thank you at this time I'm gonna open up the meeting to any members of the public that would like to speak on any land use issue which is not on our agenda this evening all right seeing none I'm going to close that portion and we have board minutes for tonight we have none and Rich why don't you take us through an update on the cases that are coming up so we have several things on the agenda U there's only one matter on that's being heard this evening that's 821 Bridgewater LLC and Jewish Community Center of Somerset hun and Warren um that will be heard later this evening um the other matters that are being carried are the matter with respect to CX Towers that's being carried till right now September 10th there will be a new notice uh with respect to that application the Starbucks application is being carried to August 27th um that's already been announced uh properly noticed so there'll be no further notices with respect to that application the application for 1200 Route 22 land investors and 1200 route22 LLC holding is being carried to October 8th and again there'll be there will be a new notice uh issued with respect to that application and belly Holdings is being carried to December 10 10th of this year and that uh will'll also have new notice um for that hearing date thank you Rich uh we have a couple resolutions we're going to work on Let's do let's work in reverse order let's do Chimney Rock last um first up why don't we do Welsh Eileen Welsh looking for Corrections comments so I have I do have one that's on top of page five that indicates that the board took action on the application the correct date should be June 25th 2024 all right anything else I have a motion please I move Mr widley and Mr bonjourno is the second Mr F yes Mr widley uh yes this is a mean yes Mr Fresco yes Mr yes Mr G yes Mr Cat yes next up let's do Ben catarin I think I got it right Rich looking for board comments Corrections please the only comments I have on that one from any member is that uh page sorry page two paragraph five instead of Mr Dar it should be uh Ms Dar and that runs through probably page two and three okay there's nothing else can I have a motion please I move Mr widley Mr bonjourno second Mr F yes uh yes Mr Z yes Mr Fresco yes Mr yesi yes cat yes all right next up is uh Andrew and Mary sack 273 Hancock Avenue looking for comments and Corrections please so the one that I have on bottom of page six with respect to conditions it will just indicate at that very last line indicating that the plot plan or grading plans must be at a scale no greater than 1 in equals 50 ft nothing else can have a motion please I move Mr Wiley Mr bonjourno Mr F yes Mr widley uh yes Mrs Zine yes Mr Sweeney sorry Mr Fresco yes Mr Fresco regard Mr bjo yes Mr G yes Mr CE yes thank you and last up we have Chimney Rock Self Storage LLC looking for comments Corrections Rich could you just clarify that we we had in there during the case that they wouldn't use forklifts and I read this I didn't see it is it in there 15 18 and 24 I'm sure I missed it I page n page 15 is the yeah know 23 there will be no forklifts on site page 9 of 29 thank you Mr OD Deli yeah but I would add that into the conditions as well that's where I went first we're going to make a change we're going to add that to conditions condition yes any other changes Corrections have a motion please I'll move second the usual Mr fous yes Mr widley yes Mrs Zin yes Mr Fresco yes yes Mr G yes all right so we're going to move on to our applications I see Mr kley here good evening sir good to see you good we have uh 821 Bridgewater LLC and Jewish Community Center of Somerset Hunton and Warren thank you uh good good evening good evening even sir chairman Council good evening members of the board it's our pleasure to be here this this evening um with me is my colleague Ryan Benson I was I'll put together this application we have him to blame for it um and also with us is Howard Cohen um Howard is the uh individual personal counsel to the Jewish Community Center of Somerset Etc you're Mr Cohen hi sir okay here he he moved around so um we're here for somewhat of an unusual application it's an application for four use variances uh two uh D1 air variances a D4 F variance and a D5 density variance um this property has been kicked around for a long time it's it's that many people look at it um it's a 15 acre property comprising two lots owned by the polyc family uh they have gone into contract with uh 821 who whose uh principal is Joseph foron and the purpose of their agreement is to um develop um 64 tow houses on part of the 15 what was the number 64 yeah 64 tow houses on on a 12 acre portion of the uh Lots 45 and 46 and to be able to convey the 3 Acre portion portion to the West that adjoins the JCC property to the Jewish Community Center for uh use in connection with their uh existing programs um so both of those uh transfers are contingent upon getting all necessary approvals including the approvals from this this particular board um so Mr uh Mr Cohen and um um uh the a21 folks got together and made this made this transaction and that's why we're we're here this evening um while this is a a uh section 76 bifurcated application there's a a tremendous amount of information that has been gathered about this these properties and this project um your staff did a did a great job of of uh you know eliciting additional information about the property and we've done uh a lot of work uh we've done a grading plan we've done uh D permitting and uh reviews um we we've done architectural layouts um we've done storm water management So the plan that you're going going to get and it's a it's a use variance application the plan that you're seeing now is the plan you will get on site plan and subdivision approval uh it's locked in I'm not saying there wouldn't there might be a a footer here or there or something like that but you're getting 64 townhouse units that's what the variance is for and there's plenty of information that would that would justify that that that's a doable project in this instance Mr cley if I can interrupt you at our last meeting we had an applicant a developer come in and they wanted to do a bifurcated application which is absolutely their right and it's your right as well um they did not provide nearly the quantity of information you have provided and this board felt that it was too intertwined with the D1 variants to proceed and we actually told that applicant we can't hear you because we can't make a decision based on the information that's been presented in your professional opinion have you provided this board with enough information for us to make those intertwined decisions yes absolutely and in fact in this case the decisions are not intertwined um you know this this uh project stands on its own it's not related to anything else and the two cases that the staff cited you know have no pertinence here one was a a bus parking area um and they didn't provide an access road to the bus parking area you can see why maybe that variance wasn't not granted until they filed for site plan approval the other case the the the court reversed the local board because the local board failed to um Grant the variance so you it's a very unusual circumstance an for a board to deny a a uh decision on a bifurcated application that doesn't mean you're approving it but but but not to to Grant the decision the other thing I think to keep in mind is as this goes on this would come back to the board for site plan subdivision C variances and the board would review those various approvals just as if they were reviewing the negative criteria for a um a use experience so all of those uh characteristics that that come in the subsequent review are are subject to a heightened scrutiny so I mean in terms of protecting the Public's interest when you get it again you have you know it's sort of Open Season I have to admit that but I I mean I think most most boards if they would Grant a variance are going to stand behind it if it's if it's been uh sustained in terms of the proof in terms of The JCC The JCC uh is needs three acres it has it needs it for its existing programs and and as to the property to be conveyed to it uh by uh a21 uh there is a house that's going to be used for JCC office purposes there is a uh a barn that's going to be used for storage purposes and the bulk of the property is open space it's cleared area that's going to be used used for uh recreational purposes of existing JCC programs JCC runs extensive summer camps and extensive programs for children and and young adults and they they simply need some more room for those programs and that's what that's why they really desperately need this 3 acres property um so that's the the acres for games and three acres of the of the 15 Acres that are being purchased from poia will be used for a house that's on the on the property now a barn that's on the property now and for uh use of the cleared area for the recreation area for children okay thank you okay so so that's that's what's planned by the by the applicant um if anyone has any questions about the what the program is so those are the V the the use Varian is sought the F variance is sought as a result of the D1 variance because if you allow you know the use uh sought in the D1 variance it automatically uh uh brings about the the application of the faar and density variant so in the law sometimes they're called they are subsumed within the the D1 variance they part of part of it you get you get all of it if you get any of it um um when the the the C variances that are not going to be decided all are as a result of the fact that if you have a D1 variance for tow houses and the existing zone is is based on single family housing you you know the zone is going to engender a lot of variances um they would be would be dealt with on site plan approval and and subdivision approval but they they kind of because I think one of the questions was why can't you adhere to like the FAA or faor standards well those standards were not meant for this this type of project this is a a townhouse project not a single family residential project so you you'll hear testimony from Laura Friedman for The JCC who is their executive director and Chief Operating Officer and uh is really the heart of the JCC and she'll tell you about what the JCC does and how it operates in its current facility how long it's been there and that that sort of thing to support an inherently beneficial use variance for that property um inherently beneficial use because we're we're taking three acres and we're adding it to the JCC property so that's why it's being uh added to and and needs needs its own variance Now The JCC property is is zoned for house of worship uh use but it it's not in the on the particular streets there four or five streets in the municipality plus plus County Roads and state roads that automatically get the right to have a house of worship and unfortunately the JCC is not on one of those streets 202 is one of those streets obviously the state highway but uh it's not directly on 202 so it needs a a use variance to expand its use even though it it seems perfect obvious that it's a it's a an addition to inherently beneficial use so she will be the first witness Mr kley you're going to present the case with 64 tow houses that you're going to try and convince this board is inherently beneficial no okay no that's that's what it sounded like two variances gotcha okay okay one D1 variance for The JCC inherently beneficial use right uh a D1 variance and related D4 and D5 variances for the uh 64 unit part of the the program you know as being a particularly well suited uh satisfying the special reasons test and so there'll be a a planner Peter STC who I think has been before the board before um who will testify as to how the uh that use meets the criteria of the mediji case so that that's a separate so there's two really two two main cases there's medich on and the particularly well suited um and then there's the inherently beneficial case law that's different so um Mr um th those witnesses will start and then follow following well Mr Mr uh St will come last but um uh um our our second W witness will be the 821 witness and we'll we'll be basically telling you how this transaction came about you know it's a pretty unusual transaction where you've had a property that's been kicked around for all these years of sort of in a zoning quandry and Mr uh uh uh Joe came came forward with this application and um hooked up with Mr Cohen of The JCC and they made this agreement to split the property in the way that I've described three acres to 12 acres and and uh there's good reason to do that there's good reason not to build single family homes on this on this uh 15 acre property um and there's very good reasons to build age restricted housing that will be uh that's in dire need in in the local community so you'll hear test you'll hear some business testimony as well uh as to why why uh he's here and I I described the the role of Mr STC um Eric Keller will testify on traffic um basically Bally yeah the the the 64 unit project generates almost no traffic it's IND discernible according to him so you'll have you'll have that that testimony and and I think that's one of the most uh apt uh issues regarding uh whether or not there's offsite negative criteria um it's on a state highway it's no question we'll get a state permit state highway permit to to uh develop that property to to it's actually a subdivision permit um and there's there's almost no traffic generated no additional traffic generated by The JCC The JCC is a light traffic gener generator it has heavy traffic at a couple of times a day during the summer camp period where they bring buses in they manage those buses they have people uh carefully uh adjusting how they move and get in and out of there and don't don't stop traffic uh on the adjacent roadways um so Mr Keller will testify and um so you know that's that's the essence of it the there probably be one additional witness um Mr um michelo Rob michelo will testify concerning the general um situation with the property the uh the environmental issues the permitting the storm water and all those things that that that really helped to tell you that that 64 acre plan is a plan that's not going to change that's that's what you're voting on The use variants tonight it's not guesswork so those are those are the principal parts that you'll hear this evening um I think this is an opportunity for the board to to do two very good things one is to uh allow The JCC to expand which is which is critical to them and uh they they are in in need of extra space to to handle their uh their you know clientele at the present time it's a and The JCC as you'll find out is it's a Jewish run organization but it's not limited to Jewish people of a Jewish relig religion it's a very has a very wide ambid of people who are who are uh interested in The JCC um and uh you know and as far as the the uh poly atric property you know it's been up for sale for a Dozen Years people have come and gone and looked at it and couldn't didn't didn't acquire it um this is an opportunity to to give that property Fair zoning and and move forward with it and and not only do that but move forward with an age restricted use that would be beneficial to the local residents the local residents don't want to leave Bridgewater they want to stay in Bridge Water but they don't want to have H have a um a place to go it's a extremely expensive um that's not near anything they want to stay near to their family and friends and institutions and uh organizations um that's what the purpose of having age restricted housing here is and and so that that is uh um what what we'll be tested right to are they targeting 55 55 right so um the Mount Laurel issue was raised if you give a variance for the uh for the 64 units that will uh be an inclusionary development and uh and it will subject the property to the uh 20% set aside in the uh Bridgewater Township Mount Laurel ordinance that can be satisfied in several ways it can be satisfied by off-site onsite or by a inl contribution a Bridgewater has a judgment of repose um which means that they've satisfied all of their affordable housing obligations so our our expectation and this is after you know some discussion but nothing binding or anything like that is that a inl contribution uh will will be an acceptable means of resolving that obligation and so that is the plan so we are subject to the ordinance and we can satisfy the ordinance in several different ways which we will um just so that yeah I'm clear because I'm just a little confused are you saying the affordable housing numbers you want to make a contribution to the affordable housing fund rather than put up affordable housing yes that's allowed by the by the Bridgewater affordable housing ordinance we have come up with about 800 units by July of next year starting July through 2030 so um we're looking for affordable housing unit let's let Katherine chime in here on what the next phase looks like for Bridgewater Mr cookley is correct that Bridgewater Township does have a judgment of compliance for oppos for the third round the fourth round is impending um the pro process for that round is starting in January we're going to have numbers attached um and obligations um provided by the DCA sometime at the end of this year and then and I won't hold you to it but we've heard numbers from 650 to 850 and I won't speak on those because it's completely unknown what the number will be we know we probably will have a number and an obligation moving forward um our immunity from that Judgment of compliance for impose ends July June 30th 2025 so less than a year from now and our housing elements uh and fair share plans are due to be revised including a plan for the fourth round in January of next year thank you than you would you be in favor of maybe setting aside a few houses for affordable housing um no because we believe that um making an inl contribution and and allowing the municipality to have the subsidy that comes with that for affordable housing is a better way to achieve significant amounts of affordable housing than than a couple of units here a couple of units there get the case started and you know we don't want to get hung up on this out of the gate um but Mr C I if you're not finished I don't want to interrupt you I I do want talk about safety and and storm water management and Mr michelo from Gladstone has been front of this board many times and he's a good witness right um and I'm very excited to hear from members of The JCC my my kids went to Camp Rous and it's a wonderful facility and does the community great benefit but I'm going to tell you and I tell this to every developer that comes in front of this board is is safety is Paramount you know if you look at a um kind of a logistical layout of me just as one voter on the zoning board you know safety comes first um during the stor we've had in the past 5 years we literally had residents picked up from Route 22 and their bodies are dumped at the train station in in Bound Brook um I don't know what the situation is at your site but some of these things that have happened in our town make us extremely aware and we want to be very careful in how we develop properties so um he's witness number four um and you can do whatever order you you like but just speaking for myself um you know safety is is a big deal deal um we've got a lot of residents here in the seats you know probably from West Foothill and and talamini um you know there's some velocity question marks that come off this property so I just want to put that to you I say it to every developer let me do this um let me uh without U waving my right let me just bring up Miss fredman for about two questions and then bring Mr Michelle I didn't want to Sidetrack you I just wanted to let you know that's okay I just want I just want to have a testimony on the record as to what what the variance is for you're always very responsive and thank you in advance whenever you've been in front of the board you always address these issues I just feel like I need to say it because if I don't say it another applicant is going to say I treated you different all right I do want to stop you for just a moment if I may for the sake of clarity your Law Firm represents both parties that are on this application yes and there you had introduced a host of attorneys that are present here and some of whom will be offering testimony or they will be no no no no attorneys there Mr Benson is my colleague with the same office Mr Cohen is the inhouse or not in-house but he's the personal counsel yes the Jewish Community Center okay there are there are certain expert Witnesses here who are not likely to testify but who have worked for the JCC in Prior occasions okay thank you and the other question was because this application comes to us and you're looking for specific D variances the if one part of this proposal somehow is tied to the other in other words the whole package has to be approved yes okay thank you Mr chairman one one question also just while we're on it Mr cookley I'm quoting you you said there's a zoning quandry can you just elaborate what do you mean just as we kick this case off we've got a lot of eyes here what do you mean by a zoning quandry well you have a have a property that has been uh vacant for a long time it's a it's underutilized as a farm use there is a resident in the in the home though there's a family house right it's a 15 acre property there's two there's two homes on the property um so it's it's not it's not fully uh utilized I might I might say uh and there have been lots of people have come by and looked at that property and no one has ever bought it and you know back in 1990 the uh Master the last master plan in Bridgewater uh called for this this property in this area to be de developed for multif family housing but that that has never happened either so that's what I'm I'm I'm speaking of when I say A condre all right okay what Miss fredman could you just come up for one second please yes let's do one at a time as they come up would you raise your right hand please you somly swear that the testimony you'll give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God and for the record would you state your name spell your last name please speaking the microphone it's Laura fredman f r i e d m an fried man spell pronounced fredman thank you m fredman um have you been here for the opening statement yes all right anything I say about the JCC is any of it inaccurate no okay um your your organization is Seeking a use variance this evening correct correct what are the uh specific um purposes of that use variance in other words you're going to use this 3 Acre property for what for the existing program we have so far so we have a camp um with about 650 children so we want to be able to spread them out a little bit we have a preschool we have a special needs program so all the programs that we have already just so that we have more space to use they are outside a lot of nature that's it and uh and there's a house you're going to yep on the same property there's a home that we hope to move the camp office to in the summer and the winter we would hope in the fall in the Spring we' Hope to use it for adult classes in the evening special needs program can use it it's extra space in addition to what we have now and there's a barn you're going we would be thrilled to have the barn because we have for storage purposes the pole barn and if the variance the used variance is granted your organization will return to this board and seek like s plan approval and subdivision approval Etc yes no more question can I just ask what is your position with I'm the CEO and for how long so I've been at the JCC since they opened their doors in 1999 but I've been doing this this position since 2013 thank you you're welcome Mr kley the GCC would have to come back in front of the planning board no for subdivision no uh they come here under the statute excuse me because we're granting the use variants we would Grant the subdivision yes okay all right does the board have any questions can I ask what is the current use now for that 3 Acre property it's a part of a a farm so it's farm farm use a house that's reside that has been at least in the past residence and a barn that is has storage in it so former single family home Farm yeah there on the property all told there's which is 15 Acres there two homes and several or type structures most of them will come down I'm just trying to understand what can be developed without a variance so what could be developed on the three acres without a variance yes um single family housing okay that's what I want to understand thank you all right thank you any other board questions for M fredman members of the public questions on the testimony from Miss fredman all right seen none oh a hand oh come on up what's that you can just wherever you're comfortable hi there if we can you have your name and address please um Lori Richie 771 talamini Road okay so um a house away from the JCC's they've been wonderful um I'm just wondering the three acres is it staying green land or is it going to be developed in any way black top anything like that okay yeah I didn't get any map or anything with my letter so field okay and uh are we just addressing that because I'm concerned about the construction of the 64 units I'm literally right on talamini they're behind I hear you and this is the way that the cases typically go is that we have witnesses come up and members of the public can ask questions of the witness on their testimony so miss fredman didn't testify on anything with the 64 but I promise you I'll make you aware when those applicants speak and then at the end I'm going to let anyone for as much time as they want speak for or against this case at the very end so thank you for coming and I'll make sure that you're able to ask questions of the witnesses thank you anyone else oh please online Janette Cy 812 Summit Ridge Drive in Bridgewater could you spell the last name Sor spell your last name please assis and Sam EI p is and Peter what was the street 812 Summit Ridge Drive Bridgewater New Jersey a longtime resident of rro as you can tell um I'm quoting from New Jersey nj.com uh online I guess it's tied into the Starlet um they mentioned this development they call it the venue it's uh 64 town houses I believe it's for seniors is that correct right now it's only questions for this witness on what she testified about I'm sorry and you're with the JCC okay I really don't have any questions for you I think a Jewish house of worship after they after they testify about the proposal and the four units you can come up and ask them about that and and the reason that we're such sticklers on procedure is because at some point if someone doesn't like how I did or Rich did or the board did they can take this to a a court and uh everything that we say including your questions will go in front of a judge and uh that's why we have to kind of keep this procedurally um by something called the ml it's Municipal land use law so they kind of dictate how we run these meetings and how the format has to be so I I promise and if I screw up rich will poke me over here but you will definitely be a particip in this meeting and be able to ask questions all right Miss fredman I think you're finished thank you very much oh I'm that's my fault see questions um can you just describe what what is currently what uses are currently on the JCC site uh use more so you need the microphone you take the microphone uh the uses that are on the site so so we service zero meaning babies all the way to seniors or however old you might be fortunate to get we have a preschool we have a camp we have an after school program we have a swim team we have basketball leagues we have a special needs program where 31 special needs adults come daily we have senior programming we have senior Fitness programming we have pools we have a swim club we have Fitness we have a tremendous amount of Jewish programming if you want I can go into details um I'm more I'm more just trying to look at a technic more of a technicality and this is probably more for the attorney and for our board but they're seeking a use variance for a house of worship and I just want to make sure because I heard a lot about programming um so my real question is is there presently um any kind of worshiping or service like Temple Services sure so Friday Fridays which is Shabbat we have um pre we have preschool Services we have um a Shabbat service in our hallway for Camp every Friday Friday there Shabbat services so those are the services that we have every holiday is celebrated we actually run the Township's Hanukkah program um we bring in Israel culture so through them all the Jewish holidays Yumm Yukon all the holidays that happen in Israel so that's the Jewish aspect adult Jewish courses we run Jewish life which is a Jewish um program in the community that basically brings in authors and Educators we have a Jewish educator on board our St we have a Israeli which is a person who comes here and ambassador from Israel for two years who works with us as well doing Jewish and Israel education thank you you're welcome um and I only bring that up because we're in the confines of a use expence I want to make sure we're capturing everything so that any approval that this board grants will then protect you know that use in the future rather than um if we are saying a term like house of worship I want to make sure that that's not the connotation that they're building a a new house of worship on this portion the site that it's it's going to fall under the use that they're seeking um the house of worship under the conditional use section does include um that houses of worship have ancillary social events uh recreational activities convocations and similar so it captures those things so it's not just the the definition for house of worship isn't just for a place where religious services are held it includes other community activities and social activities um but I just wanted to make sure that was captured as this board is considering the use variant I think it's an important point in the courts have been clear that accessory use is our houses of worship essentially and we really can't delineate between the two and they both fall under the house of worship context in every way shape and form that's why our ordinance reads that way and I just just wanted to make it clear that we capturing all these events within within that house of worship use um in particular the ordinance says to well it says planning board but this board shall note any of these other activities and that's just to make sure that we're protecting any kind of variant approval moving forward if they ever had to come back or anything like that that we've captured those other social events other recreational activities in there why don't I just ask you the question then for the benefit of the public is that in your opinion is this a house of worship and is an appropriate use that they're seeking based on that house of worship definition that you just mentioned yes and I would just make the the board should it's my recommendation that they should include all the testimony we heard tonight about those other activities so that it's captured go can I Tau two really important things was our Holocaust Memorial education center which is the only one in this area as well as um in times of need we run all the Jewish visuals in the area so when there was an attack on Jews around the world we have that we coordinate with the synagogues thank you and I'm I don't think we're going to go into those specifics which I appreciate the testimony I appreciate knowing more about it I think it's very helpful I think that the board will more generally capture that there are social recreational community services and religious services that are held on site as well yeah no I I and I think the the board has heard loud and clear that this is a house of worship and you know there had been some questions coming in you know if it's isn't truly where a rabbi has Services each you know you know I can I'm Catholic so you know every Sunday we have house of worship we go to but these ancillary uses make it a house of worship and we we can't delineate it it falls all under the house of worship and it's it's very important that the board understands that and our and our ordinance I think captures that as well I just want to make sure as we're seeking the use varience we're not putting them in a box for just the the term of House of worship which might be too constrictive uh here so and I think Miss Freedman also said regardless they do have Services there they have Junior sure correct for our preschool the camp and the community correct um because you provided extra testimony and Mr bur I didn't forget about you I do want to remind the public if they want to ask more questions on the additional testimony just raise your hand and I'll have you come up yes if we could just get your name and addressa I live on 788 West Foo Hill I'm sorry I didn't hear your name Lisa Ferrara I just could you share a map of how the three acres and the 12 acres are divied up or yeah all right okay that's question for you we have it on our screens and hopefully it'll pop up on those screens as well there we go so I think the question was your three acres where is it going to lie I think it's to the West feel like I need a pointer somehow to show you so the long oh he he has a pointer we can zoom in a a little bit as well there we go okay oop it disappeared it's not going to work oh I don't mean to point in a Red Dot in anyone's eye that's scroll down I think the original one you had up captures what they were ask was where are the three acres delineated on the overall property map so if that's our property right there with my little dott is I don't know if you can see it where the blue looks like it's blue on the corner it forms its own little triangle the property that we're looking at is connected parallel to our property the other map was a better option that first one that was up shows a perfectly clear where I feel like this one there you go perfect so the triangle that looks like it's right next to 287 that's the JCC where currently exist the two rectangles are the property that we're discussing the part that we would get would be attached directly to our yes exactly exactly does that answer your question okay great sure can can we scroll down you want me to reply to that because I I believe what I'm looking at is what the um Mr foron is looking at for his the tow houses and then our little piece of the property is the green part it sounds like you answered the question thank you okay all right all right Mr Burr I didn't forget about you I apologize so before we do that sorry Mr kley where did you go so Mr kley what we just looked at is that in our package exactly rendered I don't remember I remember yeah oh okay right but that's not in our board pad in your mark it as an exhibit is I'm getting that right so we're going to mark that as exhibit A1 n and would you just identify what that is we actually have this marked as exhibit A4 already okay we can go with pre-marks so A4 is see it's on the side but what is it how are we going to describe that so we have here four sheets in this A4 exhibit romanet one is this view of the three lots that are at issue here uh we didn't look at Roman at 2 or Roman at 3 um and Roman at 4 is the the image that shows a zoomed in picture of the um Lots 45 and 46 and shows where the town homes will be and also um the portion to the left of that red line is the the three acres that would be subdivided and and is that I'm sorry is that sheet three you said so this is exhibit A4 romanet 4 see in the lower left corner there there are romanette numbers way too small to read that I I do have hard copies as well if you would like I would like a hard copy for our file for sure any members of the public that would like a copy by all means let's get them one as well thank you leave one up here for the public chman we'll leave one up here for the public thank you Mr cley does Nancy have one for the file we need to make sure the board file has one yeah Nancy if you would just mark it A4 with today's date please and I'm going to try and identify it just for the record Mr kley so A4 is consists of four sheets first sheet is where the A4 is is an aerial looks like uh the last are identified with lot boundaries right for three lots the second sheet just has uh lot boundaries for lot 45 and lot 46 again an aerial I will need one of you to tell me what the third sheet is here that is that the environmental constraints exhibit okay is the third sheet and the fourth sheet sheet is is just a rendered site plan right I think that's a good description okay thank you all right so we answered the members of the public questions we had one last professional I wanted to oh let's finish with the public and then we'll get to Mr Burr if we can just get your name and address please Robert W Road I do have a question question it's going to cover both sides but I'll ask for The JCC first um as you're adding on more property is there any intent of providing other access to your property because right now you only come out of one driveway no and the next question for JCC where the house and the other are I know you weren't you said you were not going to do uh pavement and stuff like that will you be bringing Vehicles up to the house area I mean I got a stone lot not sorry not cars uh golf carts we have a couple of golf course that we use among the grounds okay and asked the question about the taes so right now there's no intent of having access off of 206 you know like on a common driveway up the no thank you you're welcome all right Mr ber sorry Mr chairman um just just had two quick questions I think for for Miss fredman so the existing dwelling you had testified earlier that that is not going to be used anymore as as living space that's going to be used for classrooms or for for some of your programs yes no one's living there nobody is going to be living there in the future either no right there's no plan no okay and then Mr kley indicated that if these D variances are approved in the future site plan and subdivision approval would be necessary for this merger do you envision the application being a joint application at that point in the future or is that undetermined did they be split and proceed separately or would they likely come through as as a joint Please Mr Cen the intent with respect to the site plan and subdivision components when they're presented will be presented jointly with 821 very all right thank you Mr per M fredman if you have nothing further thank you very much thank you have a good evening now you told us he was number four go hit now all right yeah Mr Michelle what what is your profession oh before we do that would you raise your right hand please do you solemly swear that the testimony you will give to this board will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God I do and your name please Robert mosell thank you m c h l bus address is5 Main Street thank you all right Mr Michelle good to see you again uh this board accepts your qualifications please continue so let I guess the first question is what did you do to investigate this property before you you uh did anything more all right so let me go through I have a series of exhibits I want to present here to the board actually was entered as exhibit foror so let start off with going through the various start off with so I have this right record here this is this is sheet there we go so for the record here we have um sheet this is ran numeral one in the exhibit package it's entitled neighborhood aerial exhibit it's dated August 13th um 2024 for the record and that's what's up on the screens here that you see in front of you and on the sides um what we're looking at here is the uh 2020 um New Jersey state aerial as the base mapping for this property and then for the surrounding neighborhoods just want to point out some of the surrounding environs before we get into the uh site specific details itself so as you can see on the plan here on the left hand side of the plan that's 287 or the I'll say the uh west side of the plan with North being up on the screen okay on the east side of the plan you have Route 202 206 running in a north south direction see the 202 206 label there on the screen um to the to the north we have West Foothill Road which is which is accessed off of 202 206 and and to the South we have talamini road which has access off of 202 206 as well and that has a fly over over 287 or an overpass um you see here three properties that are outlined on here for the purposes of this application lock 477 Lots 45 46 and 53 as Mrs Freeman pointed out lot 53 is the JCC property that's that triangular shaped piece of propert to Route 287 and if you look at the aerial imagery you could see there on the property you have access off the south of that property off of talamini Road just down the bottom there where the pointer is that's the main access drive that comes into the property and you have a driveway coming in which accesses the parking lot and the building complexes that are on that site you can see it's it's a very um you know developed property from looking at you have parking you have multiple buildings you've got tennis courts basketball court ball field um all those types of features that are on that property as of today and then we also have looking at the surrounding environs we are in the R40 Zone the residential R40 Zone and basically all of our property plus The JCC property and the properties to the north and south of our development is in the R40 Zone to the east of 202 206 that's the R40 a Zone just to be specific you see the dash line that runs down 202 6 that's the zone line that separates the R40 and the r4a zone and just as you can see on the mapping um you have residential development both to the north and to the South as well as on the um east side of 202 206 and at the corner of Foothill Road and Route 202 206 is the bridgew of vetner hospital that's there as well and that and that site has access off of 202 206 that'll come into discussion when we talk about the site plan um a little later on so that's the overall environs of the surrounding neighborhood when we go to the next slide which is that Roman numeral 2 in your in your package this is entitled aerial exhibit okay and this is a a zoom a little bit of a zoomed in um look at the properties themselves are subject of the development application this evening so i' I've un UNH highlighted The JCC property to the left and we're focusing on the two lots that are the subject of this application and as Mr kopley pointed out it is block 477 Lots 45 and 46 and they are two separate Lots one is lot 45 is 7.32 acres and lot 46 is 7.88 4 acres in total those two lots combined um for the record of 14. 916 acres okay there are existing improvements on the property and as you can see from the aial was kind of talked about already the property has its main access off of 202 206 right where the 202 206 label is on the plant it's it's a driveway that comes off of the existing Highway you come in there and it actually splits you can go to the right to the existing Farm Stand that's on the property today there's some parking there gravel parking for that Farm Stand and then if you go to the left it's a little hard to see on the aial but there's a single Lane driveway that goes up to the back part of the property where the rear portion has an two existing dwellings has uh you know a metal Barn Building and some additional storage buildings as well as a pretty large gravel parking area that that's also back you can see where those cars are parked on the North Western portion of the uh of the property if you're looking at the exhibit um and then you can see from looking at the imagery um the property is both wooded more towards the middle and along the northern property line as well as um open grass fields on the southwestern side as well as around the development of the of the house and then in the front where you have the Farm Stand is also um open Open Fields as well but it's generally wooded in on the main portion of the sites generally wooded and you can see that from the uh from the aerial the existing lock coverage on the property as it stands today is approximately 1.59 Acres or about 11% of the overall um lot air of the overall lot coverage on the two lots combined together and then like I said that consists of the driveway the buildings um the gravel parking area and so forth um as noted in the application um there are because these are two lots and however they were created and put together many years ago there are some cross easements to allow access to um both Lots over the existing driveway for whatever purpose that's in place those easements are there today um ideally if the application was ultimately approved and went through the site plan process those easements would be extinguished and modified extinguished and no no longer would be needed for a town house development but they do exist on the property today so any questions on the existing layout before I go into the environmental constraints just those easements in specific you were talking about you don't know what they're for now they were called access easements so there's one over that gravel parking area so ideally if if someone had owned lot 46 they would have the ability to park on lot 45 if it was under separate ownership okay that's how I would interpret it interpret it to okay thank you a question so let let's talk about the water feature on the property what can you go over that what what I'm actually going to touch on that on the environmental constraints fair enough yep that's actually a good segue into the next sheet which is Roman numeral 3 in the set um this is the Environmental constraints exhibit also dated August 13th 2024 this is basically um a colorized version of the existing conditions plan that's in the site that's in the site plan set that was submitted um to the board so this this has a lot of existing information on in terms of the property itself from an on the ground level type of condition here so we'll talk about some of the various features that are on the property today first off again we have our access off of 202 206 which is still on the right hand side of the plan um the driveway comes in there um the site is gentle to moderately sloping um in terms of the topography and the topography on the site plans it basically goes from an elevation of about um 202 on the Northwestern portion of the site or the site closest to the JCC and it slopes downward towards Route 202 206 to about an elevation of about um 138 so you have about 60 65 ft of gray change across that site which which when you had take that over a th000 feet it's it's gentle to moderately sloping um we've done our slope analysis on the property and on the colored map here you can see the slopes are outlined in a green color on the um on on the map on the screen and and we have identified that based on your slope categories within your ordinance and you can generally see that for the most part there's just there's a pocket of steep slopes down towards Route 202 and they're not even that steep they're in your 11 to 19% range and there's a couple other little pockets of slopes around the property you'll notice a a darker green area slope towards the Sun portion of the site right in there that's in your your steeper category you have 20 to 29% but if you look at the topography it's actually around a it looks like a mound of dirt that may have been placed or a pile of dirt that was placed there one time on the property so I in looking at that it it looks like it was actually man-made but still nonetheless is identified as a as a slope a steep slope on your um category um so the slopes are are are are sparse around the site and we have done the hillside development calculation um put your ordinance again when you start off with the 14.91% L than a half acre of reduction so for the most part from looking at those numbers you don't have a lot of steep slopes on this property in terms of the D regulated areas on the property so you have three categories of of the DP regulations that we now deal with today you have um freshwater Wetland State open Waters you have reparan zones and then you also have flood planes um so we've actually gone to the D and gotten um verification from them on the wetlands the repairing Zone on the property so on the map that you see here we've identified under our Loi we've identified State open Waters and ordinary resource value um Wetlands or ditches that exist on the property so um in looking at the property and I'll go from west to east so starting on the west you've got that that blue circle there that is the existing pond that's on the property it was designated as a state open water under the LOI does it have designated as what a state Open Water what does thatan I mean it's it's basically put backwards it's Waters of the state it's regulated under the under the D that it's a a water body that had that has a um that is protected under the Wetland regulation it's going to stay there under the current plan it's going to stay there yes than you but would you be able to develop it around it around you could develop around it yes they have some requirements for a certain distance off the top of bank but yes you can develop around a state Open Water um it doesn't have it does not have a repairing Zone it does not have a flood plane because basically it's a it's a pond that was built on the property a number of years ago um more for Aesthetics more than anything else and so but under the rules it is regulated so that Pond's there and that pond is going to end up when we get into the discussion about what's going to be subdivided to The JCC that that pond will be on the JCC property so then we if we move over to the right side of the property or the Eastern side of the property along Route 202 we have we have some additional constraints there now you have in the bigger picture of things you have a tributary to Peter's Brook that runs along the west side of Route 202 206 that tributary drains down to Peters Brook it also comes up onto our property go actually goes under talamini runs along the left side or the west side of 202 206 and then goes under a culvert right before the access driveway into the property that Culvert then takes that tributary on the Bridgewater vet property and continues up under Foothill Road up into the uh up into the mountains okay that's the unnamed tributary to petersbrook that tributary is regulated under the state it's greater than 50 acre drainage area so what we've done for that tributary initially is and it's shown here in blue we've identified the repairing Zone that's associated with it so there's a 50ft reparan Zone as verified by the state and it's shown in that red dashed line on the plan it actually it comes out off of that tributary actually picks up a small ditch that that's on the property and it's outlined in red on the plan that's a 50 foot reparan Zone um verified by the state the pink or the orange oh the pink I just you a quick question while you were talking about 202 does the property then go all the way out to 202 206 then the property actually goes to the central line but we counted the acreage to to the um to this to the what would be ultimately might become a a DOT dedication I'm going to leave the dot dedication to our traffic engineer because there's been some back and forth with the dot and sometimes now they're not taking right away as they used to so I'd like to defer the whole dot dedication discussion to our traffic engineer but right now the lot line in some aspects does go to the center line of the rotor does go there okay I have a question for you the houses there are two houses there in the back right one of them will be demolished and the other one will stay that that is correct so there so uh during construction how do they have access to the one house that is going to stay because the the roadway that goes in the back during construction there'll be nobody living there anymore so it'll it'll be ultimately at that point if the board if this were to go through the entire process both use variants and then bated use variants and then site plan approval um the the the exis home then would be turned over to the JCC and there'd be no more residents living in it so access would then come from The JCC property as Miss Freedman pointed out most likely by some type of a small Trail for golf cart for golf carts and the like to access the building right now that portion of the property which is 3 acres which is not part of JCC at present right right so then the question would be how is that 3 Acre property being accessed until of course you know the two properties get combined then it will have access through JCC but up until that point how does someone get into that three acres well again once the if it were to go through approval and the three acres then becomes part of the sub so the lot becomes subdivided upon upon we'll call it closing for example so if the board were to approve the application there's a whole series of other steps that have to happen after that before the property actually closes and the developer can can start construction on the property at that time the house will be vacant so there'll be no reason for any Resident to access the house it'll then be turned over to the JCC and they'll have the ability to access it from their property the three acres will then become part of their property and they'll be able to access it from there okay so talking about the environmental constraints we have a 50 foot repairing Zone that that's on the property that that's now uh verified by the njd and we show that on the plan um one of the constraints that we have not fully verified yet and this actually goes back to when we submitted for the wetlands Loi and the repairing Zone verification about two years ago the DP was in the process of proposing the new flood Hazard area rules which changed all the flood elevations across the state if we would have submitted that that time the verification that they would have granted us would have been null and void with the new rules that were issued 6 to9 months later so we we've looked at the the stream on the property we can we can attest to the fact that the flood plane will not impact the proposed development but we will have to get that verified as part of the site plan process going forward with the DP and we are going to need a a d permit um in order to cross the the the ditch to access the site and you'll see that on the site plan as well as U disturbing a portion of the reparan zone so we have to go get that from the state anyway so that would be something that we would do as part of the site plan approval process Mr M I just got to ask you because I feel like I own half of the veterinary across the street with my my dog they they did work on that tributary there and uh they moved some land they put in some pipes the D regulates that and dictated that for that property and I know this is a different parcel but what what if the DP during your processing for the permit dictates that you have to move and put in pipes and coverts and things that the vet had to do well how that affect this application I I can say that I worked on the vet application iock did the site plan on that that's probably going back well I paid for 10 years now I paid for it all right so yeah so I mean again he we had to put underground storm drainage on that property for detention and so forth and we had to design in such a way that the building was not did not impact the flood plane so that are you going to preemptively just kind of do this here or well in this particular site and I'll get to the storm water when I talk about the site plans we have to install a full storm water management system on this property right the intent is that where we're going to put the driveway there's an existing pipe there now that takes drainage off of Route 202 206 we're going to cross over that pipe we have to extend it a little bit and that that'll be part of this the storm water portion of it and the dot portion as well because remember 202 206 is regulated by the state so any improvements that we do to 202 206 is going to be looked at by the state do as well as the state D so we're going to get two different levels of storm water review when we go go down to the state three going to get Bridge well yes I want to forget Mr bur yeah um so we'll have three different levels of storm water review and and when I get into that I'll talk about how we intend to manage that storm water runoff with with the site plan well I'm not going to ask you to talk about the storm water management just yet but I'm going to ask you does The JCC have its own will have its own plan in the future and the other parcel will have its plan or are you designing for the entire almost 15 Acres we're designing for the development that we're proposing as we're being told as you heard this evening from Mrs Freeman there's no proposed improvements to The JCC lot other than what I'm in envisioning some type of an access um path for a car path that if we're going to do an access path we will address that as part of the site plan application for the storm water at that time for this particular lot because it has to be accounted for it's going to be gravel now there's there's gravel there today they may look to they may elect to cut some of that back they may want to leave it so that'll have to be something we'll assess but that'll be part of the the The Final Storm Water Management analysis and I'll talk about why we did the preliminary one this evening and how that impacts it but that'll be that'll be addressed the look that will be something you're doing jointly with the JCC that's correct and as we look at this um site plan currently where you're talking about the environmental constraints the pond effectively becomes the JCC's Pond yes it does okay yeah yeah the pond in the back the pond outline yes so again when we talk about the constraints I mean that's really what we're looking at on the property is we have we have the LOI and we have the repairing Zone verified we are going to have to verify the flood plane and based on what we know of this area how the um it's going to be delineated we feel that it will be contained to that lower right hand portion of the property which is the regulated area within the repairing Zone and that'll have to be that'll be vetted by the D and and one of the reasons why you'll see you'll see the driveway where it is because we're putting it on the higher portion of the site in terms of access and and grade as well so that talks about and oh lastly besides the um the the wet the wetlands and the flood Hazard area we did do a I'll call it a partial tree survey was done on the property we didn't survey every tree but what we did and you could see it on your site plans we surveyed the trees along the northern property line with West Foothill Road we surveyed the trees along the southern property line with Talam with the residents on talamini and then we surveyed um three boxes of representative samples of of wooded areas in the middle portion of the site to get an idea of what the tree of what the tree cover looks like on the property and we have a separate calculation for tree replacement I'll get to um later on the later on in the application but if your application is successful you'd pretty much have to clearcut all those wooded areas that exist on the property currently within the limits of the development we all looking to try to maintaining you'll see from the celand rendering the wooded areas along the southern and Northern property line but the middle portion of the site yes we'll be will'll be clearcut for the development there are light green areas at the bottom here and here there what are those these areas I'll get that on theine those are the those are storm water management bases all right so moving on from the constraints now to talk about the actual um site plan application itself so let's go to slide four in the A4 set this is entitled site plan rendering it's dated August 13 2024 this was the image that was being referred to previously by Mrs Freedman and we were talking about where the subdivision line is and so forth so this is the proposed application again we're oriented with 202 on the right um The JCC on the left or the West the pro the overall track is outlined in yellow we don't have the middle dividing line anymore showing the sub the existing Lots on here because those now no longer exist under the proposed application and we're looking at the overall track here for the for the proposed development so as Mr kley pointed out we're asking for the bifurcated use variant approval um this evening with the with the different um D variances that he mentioned this is a 64 unit age restricted um townhouse development that we are we are proposing this evening and there's some talk already about the subdivision aspect of this with the JCC so before we get into the specifics of the site itself let's just talk about the JCC sub subdivision for a moment just to make sure everyone's clear on where that is and how how how it's shown on the property so in looking at this map here and and M Ryan if you could just zoom in a little bit on the left hand side you'll see that there is a red line you can just pan over yep left a little bit that red line there that's on the plan um that red line represents the three property so we're starting out with the 14.91% we're actually calling that remaining lot um 53 for purposes of lot designation right now but we'll say remaining lands which is lot 53 it's 3.0 acres and then that leaves us with 11.91% you have it on the screen here so you can see the blue the blue shade is the pond just to the right of that is the existing home with the metal Barn Building that's that's adjacent to it that's going to remain right there yep that gray area the light gray and the dark gray and then excuse me to the north of that there's an existing gravel area which is a parking area right now the intent is that will stay unless the JCC will modify that but right now we're showing that as as as remaining then access will come from the The JCC property to the to the West how many external parking spots are you going to provide right now it's it's a large gravel area so there's no designated parking there but you can see from the image there's actually six Vehicles parked there right now um on the two on the side that your on your side of the line on the red line I see little dashes I'm assuming those are parking yes we have we have visitor parking that we have on the site PL there's actually there's actually 38 visitor parking spaces how many 38 38 yep and I'll get into the Genesis of that with the parking calculation but there's 38 spaces and they're dispersed um throughout the site there's some parallel there's some there's some perpendicular I'll touch on that um so in terms of the site itself we're going to propose our access on the Northern portion of the site on the northeastern s side it's actually in the upper right hand side of the plan there you can see that curved road coming off of 202 206 we actually line the access up with the driveway to the to the Bridgewater vet um site as we know they have a they have their own dedicated left turn lane coming in off of off of 202 206 so we're also showing the same on on on our side to a certain extent that still has to be of course worked out with Dot and everything but the idea is to have a full service driveway where you can have access to the site from both north or southbound um 202 206 so we're actually showing a divided roadway for rsis purposes it's it's divided for when you come into the first intersection we have an 8ot wide grass median and then two 16t wide Drive lanes that come into the first intersection when you get into the site I know there was a comment in the fire officials memo about showing the fire truck access through the site will certainly provide that to him as part of the site plan approval um at at so that's going to be 40t wide then the entrance 16 16 32 plus 8T for the island 40 total yeah we want to make sure we have adequate width for the fire truck to come in I know Green null has a articulated ladder truck and so forth and it's right up the you know so I want to make sure we have the right room for them to get in there um into the site and there's some details that stuff to be worked out with the curb returns at 202 and and so forth which is a which is a site plan item but again we show that driveway coming in there when you come into that first intersection you can either make a right hand turn and go down Road b or continue along to Road a for depending on which part of the site you would wish to access um those roads are 24t wide in width which is your rsis compliant for multif family road with um and you'll see that on here we also have parallel parking spaces along Road a that are closer to 202 and we have perpendicular spaces that are in the back closer to the JCC lot um for on-site visitor parking we also have some spaces interspersed between the townhouse units as well um inter parking if you see on the screen there just to the just to the right of that eight string of tow hous on the bottom there's two spaces inter first right under the on right under the road a label right there right there on the plan so we we've interspersed parking visitor parking throughout the site um for for visitors coming to the property um in terms of the parking for the development itself we have what is required under your ordinance or under the rsis actually and and these are for the record um we we we've noted them as three-bedroom units um for the uh for the record I know there's some comments in the review letters asking to confirm the bedroom counts our parking calculation on the cover sheet notes a three-bedroom unit so they're all three bedroom units and I'm going to show you some floor plans um a little later on from the architecturals that were submitted to to the board but they they're they're a combination of um some units have a a bedroom on the first floor and two bedrooms upstairs um other units have all three bedrooms on the second floor depending on you know your your particular preference in terms of what you what you want to purchase but again they're all three bedroom units So based upon three-bedroom units the parking requirements for the project no 64 units the parking factor is 2.4 you need 154 parking spaces for the project um all these units that we propose here are two-car garage units with a two with a uh two car two-car wide driveway so under the rsis you get 3.5 parking Park spaces for the two-car garage and driveway combination what's the average size of the tow houses um I I have the numbers they TP the first and second floor about 2200 square ft I believe of living space on the first and second floor thank you me on that you're saying combined first and second floor combined about 2200 and they're and depending the they're a little bit different depending on the configuration inside but that's about average no basements slabs no there are there are basements on these units um and there's actually an option for finished basements on these as well and you'll see that when we get to the footprints I I'll show you that in more detail but two story units two car garages um double uh two twocc car wide driveway so we get the three and a half um parking space requirement for each unit so when you when you factor that and you end up with 224 garage and driveway parking spaces that that's a combined combination your ordinance requires 1504 so clearly there's there's adequate parking on site based upon the rsis requirements for the project rsis also requires that we provide um visitor parking which are which are those spaces that are that are dispersed throughout the site whether they're parallel spaces or perpendicular spaces um the the project would require um 32 surface parking spaces we have 38 so we have excess of of six additional spaces um for visitor parking on the site there was a question about EV spaces for the project um the code does require that 15% of of the of the parking spaces have to be Make Ready um however um as of right now we have not worked out with the developer um in terms of how many units might have the ability to have um work out with the developer um them offering um Chargers in the units for cars themselves so actually having a charger in your garage counts towards the E EV parking requirement so that's something we still have to work out so if if there's an option for charges in the garages that would count towards the um the number of parking spaces if not we'll have to provide some Make Ready spaces on the site and that's a detail we work out there in site it's a state state requirement we have to comply with it so it's something we will work out um in the details during site plan but that will be provided um you know as part of the as part of the site plan uh can I ask you a question I remember when we did an age restricted a few years ago I had it the it's an age restricted of 55 and over does that mean just the owner needs to be over 55 can they live there with a two College age kids I believe so but I probably want to defer that to our attorney just to confirm the exact statute because I don't think that most people if they can't have them would need three bedrooms in 2300 2200 square ft the idea is to downsize a little well again that's can we get a clarification on that yeah we'll check the statute on that um in term terms of I I'll call it pedestrian access around the site again this project this site has access off of 202 206 but under the rsis we've proposed sidewalks on both sides of the road throughout the site I know there were some comments about additional crosswalks and and we'll certainly can look at that in terms of site plan detail We'll add some additional crosswalks around the property to make sure that you can safely get across from one side of the street to the other at key points around around the site but there um there's no sidewalks along 202 to six in that area right now but we'll bring sidewalks out to the out to the intersection and if dot does something in the future and adds additional sidewalks the connectivity will will be there these are not private roads right no these are not oh no these are private roads this this is not a um I'll call I'll say a public road dedication or RightWay we're calling these as private roads so the snow removal and stuff is all handled by the Association thank you thank you now I I will say that it has not been determined whether or not they would this would end up becoming a fe simple town home applic uh subdivision where the town houses will be on individual Lots that's something we worked out as part of the site plan approval that doesn't affect the the design of the project it just would mean there would be individual lots for the town houses for for a fee simple sale as opposed to maybe a condo type of type of unit here that's that's a detail that we will'll have to work out but again that doesn't affect the life out of of the project or the roads and these are not meant to be rental units oh these are for sale age restricted produ in terms of site grading I just want to touch on a few items related to site grading um we did have a a grading plan that was submitted in the site plan set so we show the grades for the property on on the set and we did look into um retaining walls and they would be needed as I mentioned the site is moderately gently to moderately sloping this is not a steep site we're not in the we're not looking at retaining walls in the 20 to 30 foot range here to grade this property out it's it's relatively flat so really what we have is um some retaining walls around the proposed detention basins for you know storage of runoff they're in the four to six 7 foot range we have um a retaining wall in the northern portion of the site closer to West Foothill Road that's in the 8T range um there might be one there might be some sections of some walls that are 9 to 10t at most but we're not looking at um tiered we're not looking at Major tiered walls here like you might see on certain sites that are 20 25 foot high site again is gently sloping so we don't really feed um a large amount of retaining walls um ultimately where we show the walls in the site plan it would and we did have notes that have fencing protection on those wall there's guide rails shown in certain areas CH into the road so that's that's been looked at already that detail can be you know um further clarified in terms of the fence type and everything as part of site plan but we do have fall protection and such um showing around those uh those retaining those just in terms of cut fill I Know M Mr Burr mentioned that in his letter um again this is still I'll call it again a preliminary grading plan to the extent that we haven't done all the site plan work yet and we haven't looked at maybe certain farming or screening options certain areas but generally speaking we're actually in a little bit of an export right now about about 15 to 18,000 cubic yards of export that hasn't taken into account final um uh I'll say birming and things of that nature around the site I just want to get that number on the record as of now we had not you know finalize that with a contractor and so forth but there will be an export of of dirt coming off of coming off the site um and we may look to adjust that number before we go to final site plan and and make some adjustments to grading to do but nothing that would materially alter the overall site design in terms of disturbance limits and things of that Mr Michelle let me jump in why don't we take a break it's 8:30 let's take a 15minute break we'll come back at 8:45 and we'll we'll I have a question about Mr has a question the uh lighting along the roads will you be providing poort lights or any of those kind of things so we are there will be lighting for the project but because it's a residential project it's going to be a little it's going to be more muted as opposed to a a commercial project and things along those those lines so the intent is even though we haven't submitted a lighting plan the intent is to have the lighting plan comply with your ordinance requirements for for residential lighting we anticipate the intersections and usually where you have those surface parking spaces and then the rest of the lighting will be your typical residential Lighting on the buildings themselves at your doors above your garages things like that no no no you know we're not going to light the streets in addition to lighting the um the the houses except for just where we have parking because you want to have some some light where the parking is now I also have on item 10 about electric vehicle parking I have suggestion actually each unit should have its own receptacle so that that complies with all the requirements so a charging for for each unit in the garage or outside the garage you provide outlet that allows you to plug in your electric vehicle that yeah yeah yeah that that's very simple and then that complies with all the requirements it might be required by code now on the outside but I'm not the architect so I can't yeah yeah yeah let take a break all right 15 minutes we'll see everyone back at 8:45 thank you Mr Michelle yeah that's yeah we've been through this before I e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay it's 8:45 we're back in session can we get a quick roll call please here here Mr Fresco here Mr here here here here thank you okay so um we just we're talking about the site plan I think this is a good time to jump right into the topic of storm water management on the property so we're going to stick with the exhibit A4 that was up on on on the board which is the rendering just so I can you know just for just for informational purposes but I'm going to talk a little bit more about some of the storm water details there was um submitted with the application besides the conceptual grading plan that was in the site plan set that was submitted there was a a preliminary um storm water report that was also prepared for this project um it's not it's not a full on total comprehensive report but it's a preliminary report that that looks at certain aspects of the storm water management system on site before I get into that just back up for a moment just to talk about what the project um is classified under so we are um under the rules we are major storm water development um because we're we're more than a quarter acre of new impervious an acre of disturb disturbance um and we are also subject to the latest round of of rules that were put in place now about a year ago which is the new um the new um attenuation requirements um under the state statute for storm water management which now requires us to look at not only um current precipitation levels um for year um 2024 2025 but also look at precipitation levels projected out to the year 2100 um which is the new resiliency um requirement of the state DP um for stormw management so we're required to not only design for current but also designed for this future 2100e storm um 2100 year 210 and 100e storm events um and and those events are are um quite larger than what we've dealt with um under the current rules over the last um number of years um coupled with that we also have to meet the um green storm water requirements which um if you may recall on some other applications your drainage areas to your water quality basins um can be no more than 2.5 acres in size um where you have to treat your water quality requirements for the project before you might discharge into what we'll call a large scale Basin for all intensive purposes um on top of your attenuation requirements for those large storm events you have water quality which has to be treated either through the use of green infrastructure such as bi retention basins infiltration or mechanical or manufactured treatment device means on on this on the property um and then lastly you have recharge um based on the soil characteristics of the site you have to recharge or put water back into the ground as close to the point with which you um put the impervious surfaces in order to meet your recharge requirements um for your project because we are doing a bifurcated um use variance application um we did not go into all the specifics of the storm water design at this time but what we did look at in terms of those three prongs the attenuation water quality and recharge we looked at the attenuation aspect of it and we looked at the attenuation for that 2100e storm event um for the 210 and 100-year storm the future precipitation which basically for that 100-year storm that's almost a 12 in an hour a 12 in Rain event over a 24hour period where the prior 100-year storm under current um populations is about 8 in over it's almost 50% greater than what we were required to design for just over a year ago so in looking at that we said well the worst case scenario is that 2100 year 100e storm so we want to make sure that we can at least provide on the site plans the required storage and attenuation related to that storm event typically if you can meet that storm event you can meet the attenuation required with that meeting your water quality and then meeting your recharge it it they basically will fall into place under the future design because that's the hardest thing to do to make that 2100 your storm work in terms of storage on your site um we also didn't look at recharge yet because that would require soil testing um which we will do at the appropriate time but we've designed the basins as if we weren't recharging which means they're actually conservatively designed for the most amount of water they'd have to hold which means that under a recharge scenario some of that water would go back into the ground if we were recharging during a storm event we've done the calculation so far to exclude that recharge so instead of that water going into the ground for the time being being designed to be held in the basins and discharge slowly you can't tell us anything about the did the work across the street well no we even though we did the work across the street the the rules required to do you know two test fits per Basin so so so so based on the work that you did across the street how that Bas well that's that's where I was getting at Mr chairman was because we didn't look at the the the soil recharge yet which actually allows you to make the Basin slightly smaller we've looked at it saying well take the recharge out of the question for right now and let's just make the basins to the largest size we need to treat that 2100e storm and that's what we have here on the plan this is the the largest Basin we would we would have where is this plan what am I looking at I I have this ream of paper here that was in my packet that members of the public certainly don't this is what makes me nervous as a board member I don't know what you're proposing where is it where can we point to professionals review it and read it and talk about it and make the neighbors make people that live on the street feel safe so if you're looking at again like I said this is a bifurcated application but if you're looking at our conceptual grading plan but if it's so entwined in the decision Mak process Mr Michelle You' been so many times you do great work you know you know what I'm going to say before I say it so with that said how can you make members of the public and make this board make a safe decision even in a bifurcated case I don't think you can I think Mr chairman to your point I think when you look at what we have here on the plan in terms and I'm I'm referring to the conceptual grading plan that was submitted and then those calculation why we tell bif forc applications you want to do it it's your right but we tell them we don't really prefer it is this is the reason I I understand what you're you're saying but I think what we submitted here shows calculations demonstrate that we have it did so much work just submit it just do it the perk test go and do the soil test so you can put it on the record and this board can make a safe decision I just don't know how you can ask a board in a bated case on 64 tow houses on one of the busiest roads in the township actually I'm going to say probably the busiest Road on a density basis on acreage Mr CLE is going to interrupt me but how can we possibly make a safe decision that's not arbitrary and comous that the judge isn't going to look at and say they had all the information Mr coin would be this is the worst case scenario he's he's done he's prepared these bases on on a on without getting any benefit of of uh uh recharge so I mean you you you know I don't think you get the information you're looking for on a site plan application either I'm not sure you do maybe maybe when the applic goes to D and gets permits um that's so but I'm not sure you get it in a regular application benefit you did so much work I don't know why you just don't do those things I hear what you're saying that you you've sized this to the worst case situation why don't why don't you do the testing so at least the board has the benefit of all this information what if there is something crazy going on with this we we do have quaries in town we do live on a on CH I just remind you of one thing and that is when we come back whatever you get on a full site plan or subdivision application you get again and you get the ability to say it doesn't pass the negative criteria test I don't really want to speak to that because be honest that any bated cases but they did 95% of the work I don't want to 9% I don't know why you just don't it do it I know there's a matter of expense you know you you the they have this statute for a couple of reasons one of the reasons is to try to keep costs under control you have a a nonprofit corporation here involved in this as well um you have two applications it seems like it was drawn for the statute this type of application let me ask you how long would it take to to do the test pits the test pits would probably involve a a month of of of work to do that to get the test bits done for this particular project is there a scenario where this year 2100 cting isn't enough I I certainly think there is but I'm not an expert and you are Mr chairman you're you're raising some good points um obviously it's always easier for us to sit up here and tell the board and the public that we have the full picture you tell Mr M again mrle what happened in our town2 de bodies that washed up in that just an overv about it because I I I think it's worth talking about because I have to bring it up every every case I think they've they've heard us talk about it but it's it's every case is unique to itself so I want to put it on the no I'm just so it it's something in the Township in in the engineering department that we probably fed the most of any questions or concerns from the public on a daily basis is drainage related issues Ida was something we've never seen before obviously we the township just in some of the public infrastructure that we were able to get funding for three million plus dollars worth of damage we had sanitary sewer trunk lines washed away we had retaining walls supporting roads washed away that that caused road closures we had a number of people perish unfortunately so you're absolutely right Mr chairman this is something that we pay very close attention to on each and every application and quite frankly it's something I'm struggling with a little bit because I want to give Mr michelo and the applicant the benefit benefit of the doubt because I appreciate on most bifurcated applications we don't get anything in the way of a storm waterer report and and we don't get exactly and we don't get the level of plans prepared to this to this extent on other applications but you know on the flip side if the board is asking me with 100% certainty that this is going to pass muster at the site plan phase I really can't say that unless I have all of that information um so It's Tricky Mr Michelle I mean this with all due respect I don't trust TR I don't trust year 2100 I don't know what that means it sounds like a gimmicky word I do trust you and I trust Mr fur and I think if you do a soil sample it certainly help sounds like even though Mr kley says it's not and I respect you as well sir I don't know what your 2100 I'm I'm not relying on that I'm relying on the fact that when we come in for site plan approval and subdivision approval all of the uh requirements of that have to be met and if they're not met you have the right to turn it down you're not bound by this approval in that respect that's right in the statute a lot of this is and people have to plan I mean you can't plan if you don't know what your property can be used for you you know we're all paralyzed that's why I say this up front about safety yeah and I and we appreciate that and and that's why I'm saying we stipulate that the ordinance allows you if you feel that this is unsafe at the at the final application that you can turn this this application down you have you have that right you say that after you present this Grand Design that we're going to help out the JCC I don't want to be the jerk turn this down because I want to help the JCC I want to help my community and I'm telling you right now I don't want to be that jerk why don't we come up with a plan where the zoning board doesn't have to be the bad guy you're basically putting the Zoning Board in a position where we don't want to be I'm saying you can alleviate that and remove that a little bit more information well maybe what's go on I'll I'll discuss it let discuss that you know to see what we can do ter but to your point Mr chairman um and trying to get to where I was mentioning about the soil testing let's say for argument sake that you know we do the soil testing there's no there's no recharge on the property it's it's what they call dooil that ter before um in which case we would be able to infiltrate you know we' have the storage you know outlined on the plan here that we need for those basins to function as the regulations intended to um so again you know we we're looking at a plan here with basically um eight storm water basins on the site so you're taking what basically amounts to 11 acre acre project and you're you're taking even less than that 2 and a half acre requirement for basing we're actually doing even less than that to those basins based on the grading of the site and the way it's out and the way it's um it it's uh it drains towards um 202 206 and this this plan also incorporates the land that's been a portion to The JCC yes this takes into account that that what's going to come from that side of of the property so if they do any development there um we we we would have to account for that that runoff that comes towards us yes and if that means we have to tweak a basin as when we get into those final calculations we certainly would would do that but this takes into account adding um you know eight basins to the site we have two under ground basins and six surface basins um that provide storm water management um for for the site the way it's the way it's designed right now I certainly understand your concerns about safety and if the Basin aren't designed properly we're going to cause flooding on the Culvert just south of two2 to A6 by talamini and we certainly don't want to do that um the rules require us to meet the the existing discharge points as the water leaves the site and that's what we have that's what we are designing to um to meet those standards um so that that's something something that we you know we take very seriously with our storm water calculations we and you know we're designing this to meet those those standards that the state requires and again your your engineer is also going to have to you know look at thisly as well as part of his review and how he his interpretation of what what we've proposed here when you look at the adjacent Residential Properties to your developed you've got this high intensity development of 64 Town Homes crammed into rough 11 acres and you're trying to design Water Management plan how how are the neighbors affected by your plan and or this development I think from a from a storm water perspective the way the the way the runoff is coming here we're actually taking the northern lots that are closer to West Foothill sort of drained towards us okay the lots that are um south of us we we currently as of today as of right now no no development on the property the water from our site runs off onto their properties on the southern side so by by by doing this development um we would actually reduce the runoff going towards those Southern properties I don't know if they have any drainage issues there today I have not looked at that I've not studied their properties but by by developing the site and putting those basins we have on the southern portion of the site along those behind those 16 units um if if you could just pan up a little bit um Ryan on that plan there oh I'm sorry pan down I apologize you'll see those two lighter shaded green areas on the plan those are storm water basins that we're proposing behind the units now they have the a lot of this the site is wooded today and we are going to remove trees how many trees we are going and this is based on an approximate calculation right now because we only did um we surveyed the trees along the perimeter like I mentioned and we did um representative samples inside the site um neighbors deserve to know how many trees going know right right now we're looking we're looking at a tree removal number of about 560 trees approximate approximate trees correct how far off could your error be 50% wrong 100% wrong given the way we've done these calculations in the past and and and you know for on one acre boxes it's usually they could be an order of magnitude of 10 20% now other had we had an applicant where they cut down trees and error I pulled up a satellite image and I was able to assess a off the satellite image why do the same well we we we did the we we surveyed three boxes on site internal to the site so if you go back and look at our on our sheet two of five of the site plan set we actually have three um approximate limits of partial tree surveys we did these these these smaller boxes um internal to the site so we we did that to to assess what the internal condition of the site would be as opposed to surveying all the trees at this time um Mr kak and I apologize for that my microphone's been off okay but M Mr kulak asked a question how will impact the the neighbors and right now it's impacting them because there's approximately 585 existing trees that won't be there following the development is that correct Mr Michelle according to the current calculations yes that's correct all right Mr kulak I'm sorry that's okay you can continue so um yes to your point Mr kulak about the um the impacts to the runoff because I thought I thought that's what the question you were asking in terms of storm water is that by constructing those basins on the southern side of the property we're going to cut off that runoff that's leading towards those Southern properties we're going to put it into our basins and then we're going to discharge it um at the required rates into the existing stream um that that's on the the tributary that's on that's on the property the the presumption based on your answer is is that the properties to the north are draining through the existing property today right and that it is I'm just going to ask this is it likely then that that's all being absorbed because you have pretty much a natural site there so none of the none of that um runoff is coming through to the neighbors to the South the way the way the calculations work um is that there's certain absorption that happens under a wood condition versus a lawn condition versus a pavement condition yes so even though yes there's water coming off of those residential lots that comes onto our site as it travels through our site because it's wooded you have less you have less runoff as opposed to the proposed conditions which is why you have to provide detention and storm water management um so yes there there may be some infiltration occurring there which is why under the rules we have to go in and do that those recharge calculations do that for the basins provide the water quality provide the attenuation because you are putting pavement and Lawn which has a higher runoff value than you would a wooded area yes that is that's what the that's what the regulations require you to do to do the calculations um so that that's but by adding all these basins now and we're picking up all this runoff we're picking up some runoff that's coming onto our property from the Upstream lots and we're preventing runoff from going to the southern Lots on the lower portion of our site so there's a balance there that it's happening just by virtue of the development that's occurring here I have a question um in the upper northwest corner there Aion Bas upper Northwest uh to the right sorry Northeast Northeast yes the north yes there's um there's a couple basins to the Northeast so is there a possibility that if those overflow and they overflow the stream that the access to the development would be not accessible given the elevations and the way the site's designed if the stream were to overflow let's just say because the stream is south of that that that that gradient is probably six to 8 to 10 feet higher I I don't see that that flooding out that driveway if it floods out that driveway you're flooding out the entire 202 206 and that storm is not just coming from outsite that's something completely different in terms of what's Happening there's only one entrance in one exit out of the development something should happen to that spot these people would be in trouble yeah just based on the grading there's it's it's higher than where the flooding would occur on the property that which is why we placed it on the on the Northern on the Northern portion of the site if we were to keep the driveway where the existing driveway is today if you if youve visit you've probably driven by the site you know where that gravel driveway is um down closer to the stream that driveway that area is susceptible to flooding so you you don't want to have your access at that point there so that's why we're moving it to to the to the northern portion of the site we know that access is is is high and dry compared to what's happening down by the Culver and and that's something we have to prove not only to the board with the calculations but also to the DP as well when we do when we do the site plan so and I know you haven't done all the testing yet but the all of the detention basins you're going to have would account for 100e flooding 100 Year flooding correct thank you Mr michelo where would the 65th unit go hypothetically on this plan 65th unit yeah um I I I I could fit a f a 65th unit where it go I could put it in the um in the upper the upper leftand corner if if if you know with with tweaking the road layout a little bit so the 65th unit would go in the in the northwest units here Northwest I could maybe make that a seven string to fit one there now why do you think I asked that question I think you're asking it based on the density of the current project thank you that was it all right so in terms of that generally covers the storm order management that we've submitted of course the plan doesn't have the excuse me the piping Network laid out yet but that would be a fun of you know the ultimate final design of of of of the site plans but all the but the way the site's graded all the water is going towards 202 206 as it does today under existing conditions as it would under proposed conditions um there was some questions about some other items to briefly talk about there was some questions about lighting I mentioned that we would have Lighting on the site adjacent to certain parking areas um and and just at the intersections of the site this would not be a an an overly lit site because it's residential project it would be it' be a muted type of type of lighting that would comply with your ordinance um LED lights down lighting no up lighting um that would meet the um the ordinance requirements for for lighting purposes let me uh let me can I just jump ask a question real fast I'm sorry um you know um I'm looking at the just before we leave the water so I have the the benefit of looking at this plan you know we keep talking about the neighbors and the res and the the uh the neighbors runoff but but basically all the impervious coverage on all of these roofs all 64 of these are all getting piped into these main pipes that lead into your uh your retention basins right I mean that's what these all these all the roofs are being picked up and they're either going to be piped into um underground storage basins or the surface basins but correct they are being direct they all lead there okay and I'm glad you brought up so the one in the middle that's the under ground one let just let just run through that you know we've we've heard from you before and these things I know they come in all different shapes and sizes and you're stating that you don't want to do the ground test on those but what about the underground one what's the story with that well we're proposing two underground basins right now basically to take the roof run off and the assumption is well the roof run off for the ones that are in that proximity right correct yeah we take the take the middle section and go to there and there's also one um to the north of um this the six string of units by the entrance in the upper right one up there as well um the intent is again those would be designed as their design right now is just straight up storage basins um so the the amount of volume in them is based on the runoff coming from the roofs of the units with no infiltration right okay so if we go when we go out there and do the soil testing not if when we do the soil testing okay we would determine if the soils have the ability to infiltrate runoff if they do then we change those and the calculation from just straight up to tension to infiltration right and then how they would be treated for for the roof run off okay so the underground the one that's in the middle of the complex that is what that's grass with gravel um so yeah from the surface you it would look like lawn but underneath the ground there would be a series of um and we haven't picked the final detail whether we would do um I'll say um oval Chambers pipes or um this this this the type of storage plastic storage system there's different options out there in the marketplace but ultimately they all give you a certain amount of storage volume that we have to meet from a storm want to runoff exactly but it's completely underground there'll be access hatches you know manholes and when it reaches its capacity it then spills into one of the overflows one of the B one of the surface basins surface basins right okay yeah it this is design we don't know how big that one is though but it is you're saying though you're tesy that footprint is General that's the worst the largest it could be the underground one in the center footprints that is showing okay yeah well and I just can't read the dimensions but it's at least probably 20 at least 100t long long by about 40 ft wide right okay now so you said though you testified to the fact that you move you so you guys knew that the road wasn't in a good spot right because uh it flooded so you moved it to the north right but because we moved it to North for two reasons one we know there's a regulated area there that we have to deal with and and from an access standpoint that's not the most ideal secondarily and you'll hear from our traffic engineer as well we lined it up with the driveway with the with with the vet because you have the you have a better access there with the turn lanes and everything good yeah that's where I was going but that's also a higher grade there though right I mean that's much it's much higher yeah right so it seems like to me just knowing the area well that seems like a a more dangerous place to put the road right if you put it South which I know is not convenient for 64 units but it would be safer because you'd have a much safer line of sight though there right cuz you're at a bottom of the hill not at the top of the hill if you're making a left out of this complex going north you have zero visibility on that coming over that Crest I'll have to just double check that we know that we have the driveway for the vet on the other side and it's the same turn if I'm making a if I'm making a a left out of the vet I have to be able to see um up to past Foothill Road intersection yeah but I that's something we will make sure that because we have to meet the do sight distance requirement anyway for Access so that's something and again just anecdotally from being out there we know there's a certain there's you have a distance past um what was it West Foothill Road up there you can see from that intersection yeah okay so then um and just really quickly so what you're saying is though somebody so it makes sense in your world to to have that road across from another driveway opposing that actually is somehow benefits traffic and yes we'll wait for the traffic eye obviously but testimony on that you're saying that okay fine just I want to step back real quick because I let it go before but I wanted my chance to ask you you stated that you're trying to allow North and southbound access into this that's what your plan is currently currently designed it's not a right in WR out it's designed to have access from both the North and South into the site right without a slow down Lane there we show on the plan it's probably a little hard to see but they're striping there now there's supposed to be a left turn lane that that mirrors the left turn lane for the vet on the other side of the intersection right and again I'll leave that up to a traffic engineer to elaborate on but that's the intent there to to do that okay great thank you that's it so Mr chairman I do want to just point out something on um um zoning really quick two it related to zoning um in regards to what was on the site plans um we did a calculation for floor area ratio for the overall project um based on the um the square footages of the um architecture of the units plus finished basements um and there was a slight discrepancy in that number because we had the wrong basement number on our plans um so just want to clarify that for the record that the actual um floor area ratio and this is based on the hillside development ordinance or available land area for the record is 0.48 f and that was that was noticed correctly when we gave that to the attorney it was 0.48 the plan say 0.45 0 48 for the record um and then lock coverage also too when we did the lock coverage calculation we actually based it on the overall lot area not the hillside development lot area so it's actually instead of 49.2% it's actually um 51.1% of lot coverage for this development as you see it right now you and you agree with what's required 18% on that 18% for the zone and on the F 0.15 yes that's for the zoning big difference right is a big difference yes Mr Michelle can you just give the total square footage calculation for the 048 for the F oh yes and and the number that was was um noted um incorrectly was the area of the give me one second here the area of the the basement area on the units so the basement area so you have the chart correct um in terms of finished basement where it says optional on the chart that should be 6467 what does that bring the total to to 23946 that's 0.4 and the lock coverage was it was 51.1 and I will say that from a lock coverage perspective I'm I'm sure there will be some tweaks or to sidewalks or and the like so that number of 51.1 is probably going to vary slightly which is why we weren't asking for that variance now and it would be confirmed and locked in as part of um site plan approval and these calculations do not include the three acres that's being seated to The JCC that's correct these are just based on the lot area for this particular project excluding the deed area to the right away for the dot uh this is just what's left on the project with the three acres taken out for the JCC C can you confirm the lot size because the application said 15.3 acres and your plan say 14.9 so the the acreages well because what you have is you have a um aided area an area they call it um if I get the right terminology here just for the record um you say to deed line the deed line is the area that was plotted to almost the center line at 202 206 so when you take the area of both existing Lots it's actually just over 15 Acres but when we're doing calculations and we're saying what's going to be left we're excluding that D area and we're going to the RightWay line based on what the dot Maps say the RightWay line is to be so then you come you end up with 14.91% that 2 or 3 acres of of deed area which is which is the roadway basically that that's a difference just in a lot size diagram I'm sorry that's the difference in what was on the lot diagram that is correct yes that that that that long narrow rectangle along the highway um can I ask you a question you look at the diagram there and you see the tow houses where the road is there that looks like an awful lot of of the space of the 12 acres do you know how much that is so I can figure out how much the town houses are actually on I'm not sure I'm following the if you see where the road is coming in right the the the curve of the road coming in all that that's a pretty big area there how much um of an of acreage is that take it I'm just curious I have to calculate it you know maybe it's an acre just roughly looking at it you have that for the next meeting please yeah definitely figure that out um one other topic I just want to touch on this evening and this was these plans were submitted um to the board already um but I just want to point them out for the record is the is the architectural drawings that were were submitted for the uh for the units um I didn't talk much about the units other than noting that they're three-bedroom units um we have these noted in strings of four six and eight in terms of how they're laid out on the site plan um but I do just want to put on the record just some of the the sheets that were submitted and these were already submitted to the board so I don't know if we have to enter them as separate exhibits or just reference them if they're part of our application they're fine right so if M Mr Benson if you can just pull up on the screen sheet SK 1.1 now come one 1.1 SK 1.1 see it's shrunken on the screen sorry yeah SK 1.1 is the 32 foot twostory Town Homes perspectives just to give the board a sense of what they would look like you just want to zoom into the up yeah the upper right one there would probably be good just to give the board a sense of what the street view is of of these units um again two story units with two-c car garage um going along going along the uh the street there and that is the the one two three four five six that's that's the eight unit string eight unit building um string that's shown there and there's two different types of elevations here there's there's based on the the the um finishing materials so if you if you if you um look at the architectural drawings if you go to SK 1.2 which is the next sheet you could see that you have your your typical material types if you zoom into to one of those elevations you can see see that they're labeled on there with the various material types the shingles the siding and and colors and the like um for for a reference purposes for the board and that's a rear viiew of the units that you see in there and if you go to the right that's the side view of of the of of the side entry unit you go down to the lower go down below that that's the front view of the of the unit that's a four string build there that used to be um in terms of its elevation and then I know there was some questions about floor plans in in in the submission set there was at the back of this of the submission set there was the floor plans for each of the different unit types and they labeled the number of bedrooms um some were Master down or Master on the first floor or owner Suite um and then some had three bedrooms with the owner Suite on the uh on the second floor and they did call out optional finished basement so we took that into account in terms of our F calculation um that that was done all told I actually I mentioned I said before um 2200 ft these are actually 2600t units um for three of them and one's actually 2,800 square foot um in terms of the first floor and second floor um living space that doesn't count the finished basement in those numbers I was I was off by a few hundred square feet there but um so that um Mr chairman concludes my direct testimony Mr Michelle I'm hung up on I I think Mr kulak asked the question about the driveway maybe Mr bonjourno on Frontier road we did a project it was pretty probably 10 years ago and we had a concern as a board that there was a safety issue on Frontier road if something was to happen um and an EMS vehicle couldn't get up to that facility I I'm kind of hung up on this driveway if something does happen there and this is something that I think your traffic engineer should should work with our police chief on he has a pretty good database of accidents I just recently saw one right in front of this this entrance way but nonetheless if something happens to this driveway upwards of 180 plus people are landlocked I'm curious our board attorney had an idea potentially you know some access road you know really could just be a pathway with a chain link fence that's what we did on Frontier Road um which is accessible via Foothill and um only EMS is able to to access that but if that is a way that via The JCC via talamini and the access road at The JCC to come across that Gravel Road on the northwest corner of this property and maybe have another way to come in there and I and you don't have to give an answer it's just something I want to throw out that potentially this is a one solution and we did it already on Frontier Road I appreciate that and we'll take that I think give us a chance to take that under consideration and talk to our traffic folks in The JCC about it but we'll definitely take that under consideration and I'm open to anywhere it's just that's the one that that that stands out to me and you know I I do worry about safety first and I told you that at the beginning of the meeting and we want to make sure that EMS and fire and whoever can get to this facility in any condition thank you I'm I'm done with my direct I'm sorry all right let's open up to questions board questions Mr wi Deli had asked a question earlier about the amount of space dedicated to the incoming roadway and then adjacent to that incoming roadway are the retention basins and some of the proposed drainage Solutions and so on and you said you'd have to get back to us as to what that area itself might might be calculated to be eyeballing it it's not much smaller than the three acres dedicated to The JCC so you have sort of parall properties on either side it looks a little bit smaller just to be fair so we've got then the 64 units compressed into what I guess is nine acres we're 11 we're 11.9 right now so 9 let's let's say 9 9.9 I say 10 acres because I just want to eyeball it so I have a better idea 10 acres for for for thank you thank you other questions uh you know Mr Michelle we've gotten to know you especially this year I feel like I spent all summer with you and and you know you do amazing work you really do um I I but I got to tell you I think you uh you could you outdid yourself with this one you really did um there's a lot there's a lot here and I'm not going to ask you if there financially viable to do with less or this or that cuz I know that's not your your job but um were there plans did you explore plans with less units I mean this is a very very dense the road looks tiny the it looks like a lot of water you know just water retention a little bit of Road um it just seems like a lot we actually and and um we actually explored one or two conceptual ideas with actually more units yeah I'm not surprised smaller units these are 2600 2800 foot units we actually looked at um 1 18800 to 2200 sare foot units and you end up with more units on the property you know again you know given the density of it and and the size of the units you know we we we settled on 64 just the way the strings worked out and the way the units could be configured that's how we ended up with with with the 64 yeah you know I think about when we work together with the Starbucks pending application and we spent so much time talking about landscaping and screening and I realized this is not a final but I I struggle to see where you're going to add Landscaping to this you know with your final do you have some plan to help these folks understand that you're tearing down I mean it's it's it's a 560 tree count I mean that's almost like a we spent three meetings with you and Starbucks and we have spent our whole summer with you and it's been enjoyable I it's been very nice be here in two weeks but but but Mr Fresco's point is that you know in the the bifurcated meetings it just feels rushed it doesn't feel right and I feel like we owe the neighbors more I feel like we owe everybody more and I I don't know Mr kley does a lot of business in Bridgewater he's a great attorney I feel like he does better work this isn't the best work and that's why Bier CAD application stink in my opinion I think if you you know we give a take some of that into consideration what we're hearing this evening and you know let think think about but but just can you we really spent a lot of time on the Starbucks which is infinitely smaller than this a fraction of of the size and was they were they put up more trees than they more than they're tearing down I mean you you guys are have to take from a landscaping perspective and and understand that yes is bated and I think you're going to see what you see here in terms of landscaping right now there's some more work to be done Mr michelo I feel like my decision is intertwined with the use variants to quote our very skilled planner I sense you were going to say that okay yeah no further questions anyone else on the board questions I have a rich so so Rob when you know we haven't spent a lot of time about the proposed subdivision line right and when you look at that line you brought it to within about a foot of the barn and the house right and as you get from the north to south as you as you come down towards that barn and house the line actually jetes closer to the barn and the house so is there a way that you could show us a proposed subdivision line where the J C wouldn't have to trespass to maintain their property that that's that's a a great question when you look at that and there was some you back and forth early on in terms of some of the structures and in looking at the line um it does have to be adjusted and and I that's something that I I didn't mention earlier and I should have mentioned it because we provided we provided the parking cutout there I should say paron out we didn't put parking in that area for a reason and the agreement is three acres so we have to look at slightly adjusting that so we don't have a foot and a half between the building and the lot it's just too close from a a practicality standpoint of view and and that's something that has has to be TW because as you know like the condo association could put a fence there they would never be able to maintain that side of the building that's why we have the the cutout in in in the in the road and we have to maintain the three acres that's a little bit of a balance they could amend the agreement sorry doesn't have to be three acres it's just you know however you get there but it's just a little too tight yeah good yep board professionals please while we're on that um Mr Michelle would that lot line adjustment impact potentially impact the F calculations the impervious coverage calculations no we're going to if I have to adjust it's going to maintain the 3 oh there's no chance that it would make it over three acres in order to to accommodate that as the way it was explained to me three acres was part of the agreement honoring those okay but it could impact uh more dimensional requirements like setbacks and things like that slightly in that area when we get to the actual we're applying the R40 set correct I just mean in functionally the setbacks whether or not we're looking at the requirements the actual dimensions um while we're in that area as well there is a sidewalk on the proposed uh townhouse site that literally I think is on the property line uh right adjacent to those five parking spaces which leaves no wiggle room whatsoever if there was a if there we're going to have to that's where we're going to have to make the adjustment in that area we have to move this lot line over from That Sidewalk a little bit and then shift it over so we're going to go in a little bit on one side and come out a little bit by the building to balance that three acres out okay okay um do you know that I don't know if the dimensions were included anywhere for um the distance from some of these townhouse units to the retaining walls um so if you look at you know the northwest corner uh where those two basins are the 3A and three you know do you know do you have an idea of the height of that retaining wall to the east of the most easternmost unit and the about the wall on the North side right yeah just along the Basin Basin number three Bas number three yeah that walls in in the 8 to9 foot range I believe it is right now um and do you know the distance [Music] between the townhouse wall and the retaining wall in a situation like that I I I we try to hold 10 ft but I don't have a scale here so I can't confirm that um just to be able to construct footings and and and and such for the building and not have the wall you know impact the uh building so I just need to confirm that Dimension okay um I know Mr Fresco had brought up some of the Landscaping I have uh similar I guess concerns or similar recommendations that I think additional Landscaping should be provided um especially along the 202 206 Frontage there's you know I think some Landscaping elsewhere proposed throughout the site but virtually none along the frontage um and that includes the requirement for Street trees which have not been provided understood we certainly look into that um Additionally you noted that the parking is being provided far in excess of what would be required correct yes the actual um unit parking require yes the there's there's proposed parallel spaces uh in the Southeastern Corner adjacent to where the reparan zone is correct yes is there any reason it appears actually that some of the development encroaches in that reparan zone uh is that can you just explain a little bit about what's allowed to what activities are allowed within that reparan area yeah we're going to we're going to request a a permit from the D to disturb that little section of the repairing the repairing Zone there um to construct the uh the parking and and and the curve of the road is there any reason why that those parallel spaces especially adjacent to something environmentally sensitive is required if you have an excess of parking elsewhere we were we were just looking because we know that in the past on on on um certain townhouse developments there was always concern about having you know extra additional parking spaces for visitors on the streets so while the rsis requires 32 we we um worked out to have 30 so again looking at the plan um I I will say this if there's an opportunity to to make an adjustment and maybe take some of those parallel spaces and make them um perpendicular we can certainly look at that and try to minimize that that that impact there um but that's a good that's a good point that we take a look okay thank you and we're trying to balance it out across the site too so we have some on the East and some on the west no I understand I was just uh in particular that area is sensitive to develop in it it's a it's one of the like two is are repairing zones on the site and I think you know as much um sensitivity can be provided to that area is probably better uh this probably isn't a question for you um but maybe you can answer or partially answer it um has was any attention as the site was being developed to provide the affordable housing units on site that conversation um was not discussed in terms of a unit type so just generally looking at the number of units and then the produ the you know the actual m not look to site an AG uh I'm sorry a affordable unit building on okay thank you and was any um was there any kind of exploration of providing any onsite amenities for the units um any Gathering areas anything besides sidewalks essentially haven't looked at maybe some additional simple amenity area like like maybe some um you know landscaped um uh garden areas or maybe some little GA outdoor Gathering space we Haven down level yet we didn't look at doing any type of Clubhouse or given the number of units here really didn't lend itself to something of that nature but there might be an opportunity to identify one or two areas on site where there could be some outdoor um Gathering space that might be uh might be beneficial to to the residents is there any space that I'm having trouble ident identifying somewhere that would probably warrant uh an amenity Gathering space is there anywhere you can point me to that would probably be a likely location for that I think it may be in in the Northwest portion of the site or you know there might be some area um down towards the southeast between the edge of the road and the um the the repairing buffer itself they have we have a little bit area in there that's kind of a even though we have a retaining we can modify the retaining location some area there as well um in two places just looking right now I mean I may be able to identify another spot that those two are okay I think that the site has you know shown a significant accommodation to make space for the units and I would highly recommend that other on-site amenities that cater to these units and and lower any kind of traffic in and out of the site would be recommended um and and to find some room for other things on the site besides the units we have any feel for lawt Farms I live in Martinsville and you know this kind of reminds me of that in some ways but they have a pool they have a clubhouse they have lots of affordable housing units I mean are they 200 units are they 150 units the law farm development 120 units I believe and I think they have about 20 affordable units and they have a pool and a clubhouse and a Rec pool Clubhouse an outdoor area I believe my brother-in-law lives there okay good good all right thank you Mr Burr thank you Mr chairman so Rob um back to the topic of the proposed subdivision line as you take a look at potentially making some adjustments keep in mind I think there is a provision in the ordinance that requires parking lots and driveways to be at least 10 feet from a property line so take a look that unless you're going to be seeking relief from that just keep that in mind because I think certainly the the one area that Katherine mentioned gets pretty close to that so I don't know if you're going to be compliant with that or not um you know as far as as some of the landscape buffering and and this kind of this kind of tailor Into the Storm Water Management you know I'm noticing the two proposed basins on the southernly property line and then the small Basin to the northeasterly corner of the site they the grading is right up against the property line which tells me we're going to be taking existing trees down which tells me there's not going to be room to re establish a buffer and I do believe there are certain landscape buffer requirements at play here given the adjacent residential uses so how that all goes into the constructibility of this project those are those are are three concerns I have as far as the location of those basins I know you testified that the way you've drawn the basins are likely oversized but with some of the questions we're hearing from the board and and certainly some of my concerns from earlier we got to make sure that this thing is is constructible the way it's laid out um so that's something certainly along the same lines the the two basins at the subtly property line have retaining walls around them I believe there's language in the ordinance that states that any wall above 48 in is considered a structure so I want you to take a look at that as well because I don't know what the height of the walls are but in my mind that tells me the walls would have to comply with at least the accessory structure setback distances which I think are 20 ft so again take take a look at that because I think those are some of the questions that that we need to get resolved here I don't know if if you have any thoughts at this point but you know again right right so Bill you're saying that a 36 inch wall is treated than a 40 the ordinance says anything below 48 in is not a structure anything above 48 in for a retaining wall is a structure right I only mentioned it because there's a few walls that get pretty close to the property lines I want to make sure that's not going to be an issue um I know you just Your Design just included doing some of the sizing or volume calculations to make sure that you know you could attenuate these larger storms you didn't do water quality you haven't done anything with the recharge we heard um you haven't done anything with soil testing but as far as the layout of what I'll say the the the conveyance system the piping on the site have you looked at that are you comfortable with the location of the basins that this can drain properly from from a gravity perspective we looked at the Basin locations and on our proposed drainage are map we at least anticipated the drainage are each bze back the rout so right yes while we haven't designed the pipes yet we we we know where they're going to go okay as I'm sure you're seeing a lot of these projects where we have a lot of basins the amount of pipes that you end up on site now are are 20 to 50% more than you might have had 10 15 years ago because we're having route water in a lot of different directions to make it work on on all these projects not not just this project but we're seeing with every project with the DP now that with the new rules that we have a lot of pipes that we have to deal with but yeah we've looked into the aspect of of where to take it and how we're how we're going to pipe okay um the laot coverage you clarified coverage is now at 51.1% is that does that include I think I saw a note it maybe on the the site plan sheet but does that include the optional patios on the back of the dwellings do you know I'll have to check okay I want to make sure that 51.1 is is the right number well no we have a we have a patio number in here of 7, 681 Square F feet so it says proposed patios are optional meaning it's counted for it's accounted for but they're optional right okay so they may not build them but I haven't seen developer yet who has built a product without having a page or a deck in the back of the even though they're optional even if it's a deck uh it depends what's under the deck if as long as it's not covered as long as there's Earth underneath the deck it's technically not coverage but I get it um Hillside development ordinance you took that into account when you ran your calculations you had updated numbers for f and lock coverage as a result of that are there any 30 plus% slopes on this property I forget with me one y there are the 30% and greater slope is actually that if you can go back Ryan to the environmental constraints plan um it's actually that area adjacent to the um what I call there some type of a a pile of material that was placed there at one time that's that green green area on the bottom the bottom of the plan yeah um that is the 30% and greater there's 2,884 feet on site and where where is that area in relation to your proposed plan is it is it near small scale Basin number seven what I'm getting at is are you going to disturb the 30 % slopes or are you going to work around that with your plan well we we were we were disturbing that 30% slope because in looking at it it was you know built as part of something that was done on the property years ago so we were we were going to take that that slope out and is that called out as future relief that would be S I'd have to check I don't know if we went I don't know if we went that far yet with with all the relief okay yeah that's not been accounted for for yet and the relief numbers and again those were just were to come back in for the rest of them is based on your knowledge of the site and the way this lays out in your opinion is there a way to avoid regardless if they were man-made or or not is there a way to avoid disturbing those slopes or you'd have to take a look I have to take a look you know in terms of what we have over there because it's the Bas in that that that okay let see what else I have here um the driveways to each of the tow houses I think your plan shows a little over 20 feet yes that's from the backside of the proposed sidewalk correct that is correct and that's that's sufficient length in your opinion for a driveway for a use like this yeah for a townhouse use like this that that 20 foot minimum sufficient um we do have because you stagger the units are slightly staggered by two feet over 22 okay over 20 and you would not you wouldn't have a scenario where a vehicle would be hanging over the sidewalk then not your typical you know your typical parking spaces are 9 by 18 so we're giv 20 feet here um so shouldn't have that scenar shouldn't have that that situation okay and you testified earlier you saw the fire officials memo and he had raised some questions about some of the Turning radi you're going to check I think he had asked you to check for the green old ladder truck you'll take a look at that and make sure make sure that that works yeah I we have 25 foot we have 30 foot intersection radiuses around around the site um at the main intersection so shouldn't have we should have okay for sanitary sewer I know again you haven't delved into the site plan aspect of this yet but have you had any conversations with srva as far as capacity and can they accept this project we have not spoken to srva yet okay we we know it's in the super service area Okay um so you know again knowing knowing srva and their current um capacity limits they they they are not at they're not at capacity in terms of allocation but that's something that would have to be done because of the number of units here 64 units um we are over the 8,000 gallons per day flow I think calculation so we need tww permit so we'll need the Township's endorsement we'll need srv's endorsement um and for for that application to go into the uh into into the state now there's a trunk line right into a 226 so again we would anticipate tying into that that line that's there last question I have back to the DP issue you testified about I think you said you had a you you have a valid Loi for the wetlands valid Loi for the wetlands you have flood Hazard verification for the repairing Zone only oh just for repairium the flood Hazard is what you're going to seek correct based on the new flood rules correct okay um the permits that you envision needing are they permits that you're confident you're going to be able to obtain based on the current layout and the disturbance that's being proposed in those regulated areas for the for the little bit of the repairing own disturbance that that pointed out already even if we make a tweak adjustment to that I'm comfortable that we meet the requirements under the uman Zone disturbance um chart in the ad ma disturbance um and then for the verification I'm sorry for the blood Hazard area based on what we understand the flood Haz area is we' located the driveway and the basins you know far enough away from that that it won't impact the basins or the okay very good thank you thank you Mr chair thank you Bill I'm open up to members of the public they have questions on Mr moselle's testimony come on down Mr Kerr right ask all right have you ever tried to pull out of westfi Hill Road go north anytime during rush hour traffic westfi Hill Road I can't I can't say that I have try it okay TR um next question I have I don't know whether he can answer it or whether it's the traffic planning um is there anything planned for if they were to widen 202 206 because any I would it appears it would cut into your retention baseu I'll have to defer to our traffic engineer from what the state would would require all right and the other question you probably can't answer is I was here before the board when the mosque was in the planning stages and at that time there was although the board could not confirm it it was we I don't think we heard the MOs case that was that was planning Bo one of I I I don't want anything to do with that one of the things was that there was going to be a synchronization of the talamini road and a traffic light put in at West at Foothill and West Foothill I don't know whether that was still in the planning and you're smiling because youve heard something I've heard rumors over the years about traffic light but no one we don't it's never come through yet okay you take that into account when you're making your plan that that's a that's a question for our traffic engineer to to to to look at thank you please come on down Janette England site 812 Subway Bridge Drive just have a couple questions uh nj.com uh online today said from the developer The Bowman consult Consulting Group are you familiar with those that's our traffic engineer okay um he said the development will generate only slightly more traffic during the week of day peak hours than the exis existing Farm Stand that's kind of amazing I by the farm stand again we're just looking for questions about what he testified to and he didn't testify about traffic their next or one of their next witnesses will testify about traffic in detail with with less traffic can't yeah he hasn't spoken yet iect you can ask him when he testifies I suspect new jersey.com probably contacted someone in our land use office and got a copy of the report is the architect who designed the build here or do I have no he's not but I have the information for the architecturals if you want to ask a question see if I can answer it for you just just from looking at the the building it it looked like you look at the front of the house and it's one big garage door there's no front windows and you say oh this is a place for cars to live where the people live the people live behind the door the cars or they live upstairs in the cars I think Bridgewater can do better than that unless it's very very low cost cost housing it's 100,000 maybe I don't think they're going to go for so a question maybe I heard Mr Michelle will these be priced around $100,000 so questioning his testimony Mr Melo are these units going to be priced around $100,000 I probably say was certain will not okay so I'm just trying to get a question that just why who designed the entire front of the building to be a garage door that's why you have to think about it these units are certain width and the two-car garage doors because you have a two-car garage um now we show a single door here I'm not saying that the architect when they go to to final design may make two doors instead of one door you know in terms of the look on the front of the building but you have a a 26 or 28 28 or 30 foot wide unit then you need to have a two-car garage to be able to park if you need to have that many units jammed in there yeah people have to park their cars in the garage and they have to live behind the Cars okay okay thank you hi there just need your name and address please uh Lori magero 771 Foothill Road West I have a question the picture can you show a straight on picture the eight rows I notic picture is four is straight yeah it was I call it a perspective I think this was the four unit I I think I'm sorry unit string going across that's a perspective he's got to go to the other sheet I don't know it's up or down here we go that's the eight no that's just we're just looking at the front view of the eights correct it's not a r it's not a rendering of the development it's a rendering of the it's a it's a front P it's a front um view of the units elevation on we''ve accounted for that there option basement three bedom full basement option for a finished basement and Miss if you could just speak into the microphone so people at home can hear you and it's it's 55 and older but you cannot confirm if that means they can have children there or not well the attorney can confirm the exact statute but the statute there there's there's a required statute that says you can only have um school age children two months out of the year or something up to certain age College Age come back the attorney okay it's just my opinion that it's way too many people they don't have a clubhouse they don't have a pool they don't have anything okay but testimony will be later right now it's just questions okay so the only other question I had that I don't know if it's for you is it possible to have single families here or is this just like this because this is what you're representing this is what we're proposing okay yes okay thank you welcome Mr fo may I ask one more question sure sure and it's just a logistical question will the um architect be appearing to testify at a subsequent hearing I I think that it might be helpful I'm just saying for a future hearing maybe I'm just requesting it so that's a no Mr kley I don't see the point your case your application okay so um any more questions of him of this uh come on down we're approaching 10:00 be brief Lis ferara 788 West Foothill I'm sorry say your name again Lisa Ferrara thank you 788 West so this is my backyard um so one question I have again it's all very wooded right it's beautiful trees back there and there's a ton of wildlife right there's there's deer there's foxes there's all kinds of wildlife sitting in my backyard all day and where are they going to go again the E that was have to SP an that deals with the environmental impacts of of What's Happen with the project but again that's something that I'm as an engineer I'm not qualified to answer the wildlife question yeah I just know that I've seen the trees dwindle from MOS and the temple and everything and okay so that's that's an open question um again my house is to the North and the water drains from my house so first I get water in my basement I've just put a second some pump in my basement um and it drains like you said towards us yes yes and you mentioned that you're going to put a retaining wall we're going to put a retaining wall between I'm not sure which house yours is here but again the third one from the street so I'm 788 so you have one on the corner then one and then me probably yours right there which is lot um 42 for the record so yeah we're going to going to put a propose a retaining wall here there's going to be drainage at the base of that wall that we're going to pick up any runoff that comes onto our property and put it into one of our storm doesn't go there's a wall where right now my water is currently running through it will be a wall where there going go it it'll either be collected on top of the wall and then charge into one of our BAS or we collect on the bottom not blocking the water coming through your property you're you're higher than us so the grades coming across the walls going down we lower than your okay I'm just mentioning that there is a lot of water problems in this area I know half my neighbors who have had tons of water in their basement and you mentioned there's not a lot of pitch but there is a lot of pitch I can tell you that there's a lot in my backyard so understood okay um I guess was the we're talking about the traffic I we'll talk to the traffic guy but I can tell you that I am almost rear ended once a week trying to turn left onto my street there's no turning lane to go left right so miss Ferrara and traffic questions will be for the traffic engineer okay well then I will I will say that then thank thank you right thank you all right it's 10:02 we're going to wrap up Mr kley schedule sure so um we we are willing to do uh soil work um and um we would anticipate that we'd like to keep this case going we have two witnesses that we haven't brought on tonight the traffic engine engineer uh and and also the planner speaking of traffic um Mr kley I'm going to rope in a board traffic expert we are using Mr uh finger in Starbucks and I suspect based on his availability he will be who the board selects to be there that night us okay so um we I guess we'd like to schedule a date where we could have the traffic expert and the planner we've got the boss here we're very lucky Nancy what are you what are your thoughts here for a date in the future for 21 yes that yes so we'll do that tomorrow hopefully he's available yep Starbucks is our next meeting we okay do we have a microphone for you thank you 827 is Starbucks continu yes so 827 is Starbucks that's our next meeting uh September 10th we have sumers set properties believe yep and we have two residential applications on September 24 and we have a maum case as well we have um yes I believe that's already okay and we also have all the cases that we briefed on at the front of this meeting CX Towers Etc So based on that could we give Mr kley an approximate date 1022 1022 Mr cley okay so um we'll have all of our Witnesses available that day the three three Witnesses um and um you know again I would I would just like to note that you know it's sort of the the old adage Perfection is the enemy of good um there is a good here but but we can also destroy the good we want to uh we want to comply with the with safety evidence because that's very important to all of us and we will we will present storm water testimony and evidence that I hope will assure you Mr K I say that to my children all the time is the enemy of progress I think it's the quote I don't know I who deserves credit for that but I think Mr Burr's statement about the retention basins and where they lie relative to the neighboring property and you can't even landscape on a lot of those so we'll look at we'll look at things when it comes to safety unfortunately we do need Perfection right and other things I do agree with you on that that it can be the enemy of not disagreeing with that thank you sir thank you so I do it or me uh you do it okay so for purposes of uh for the public this meeting is being adjourned this evening it will continue on October 22nd in this room at 7 7 p.m. and there'll be no further notices from the applicant and two weeks from tonight we have Starbucks 700 p.m. this room hope you all can make it and with that said if there's no other board business I motion to adjourn please I move Mr relli and Mr Bor thank you everyone thank you everyone members the public that we're here if the the date changes you have to check with the land use office but every other Tuesday before we meet around Friday an agenda comes out it goes