all right hello everyone welcome to the June 26 2024 Finance subcomittee of the Brookline school committee we are going to jump right in with first item on the agenda which is approval of the June 3rd 2024 Finance subcommittee meeting minutes can I get a [Music] motion so move thank you can I get a second thank you Carolyn Sarah how do you vote yes okay Carolyn yes yes Val yes and I vote Yes um next item on the agenda is acceptance of Grants there is one Grant on the memo the there was a second one that um has been pulled for now um the grants for $56,000 for um I'm not totally clear what it's for Jody do you mind just explaining my my only confusion was because we haven't heard as much about this C I'm not sure is it like the whole social studies curriculum or is it just a Civics bit of the curriculum what is the curriculum that's being covered here it's we're focusing the Grant on Civics teaching but we are actually finishing up a pilot of an open-source um curriculum that the state of Massachusetts has developed we've piloted that and another um National curriculum and the teachers really preferred the Massachusetts um aligned curriculum so that is what this grant will do will um support the implementation of that as well as professional development um for teachers so there were I thought there were two curriculums they talked about the inquire Ed and the investigating history is that one curriculum or is that actually no those are two those are the um two that they um piloted okay and um they're still in their process of making their final um decision which one but I believe it's going to be the um inquire Ed one got it okay so this so this is to fund the K through2 implementation of inquire Ed correct got it and that's why it's so cheap is because it's open source State develops correct and we got in on the ground floor thanks to our very eager um social studies coordinator nice okay um any questions or anything from anybody else about this one before we make a motion Sarah I saw you on mute just okay um can I get a motion to approve yes okay do I have a second sure okay and so Val seconds uh Caroline how do you vote Yes Sarah yes and Val yes and I vote Yes um the next one is gifts gifts was also revised from earlier to remove um Food Services gift so um there are uh gifts for volleyball for boys volleyball for Brooklyn adult and Community Education and for the baker school library um um thank you so much to all of the people who um provided these gifts for support of these programs um I'll make a motion to um accept the gifts is there a second yes thanks Val Sarah how do you vote Yes Val yes Carolyn yes and I vote Yes okay thank you next item on the agenda um is discuss of fy4 year on close out and possible vote to request a reserve fund transfer and Diane I believe you're going to give the update on where we're at and what we're what we're ready to discuss and what we're not ready to discuss um so we are closing we are closing things out this week our final payrolls will post um next week on the 3 and we will be able to give you very not final final numbers you know not audit final numbers but fairly firm final numbers um after that point um we can't give them to you now there are too many things in motion we are closing out POS we are making adjustments and two of the final clear cleanup end of the year payrolls that were supposed to hit earlier this week didn't through technical problems so I wasn't able to do the reporting for tonight that I had hoped I could do I can tell you that based on the bouncing balls at the moment it is no worse than we reported with a $400,000 deficit but it may come out better but things are too in motion to give numbers at this point so won't be any worse might be better so by So the plan right now is to provide hopefully to convene again this meeting on July 8th Monday and be able to give you reports at that time and hopefully it can go from here to school committee and then the following night to advisory committee if it's needed okay so we have to schedule another double header on July 8th um for finance and then and then school committee because we're supposed to go to select board and advisory on the nth okay so that is our plan right now I saw hands coming up and hands going down I don't know if any of those hands are okay Helen and then Caroline go ahead Helen you're on mute I'll just explain my hand I I wasn't I thought it had to go to select board too and that's what my it doesn't technically have to but select board reached out and asked that it go to to them so and they reiterated that just now at Town School partnership yeah Carolyn um so this is good news um that this is down to 400 something the last I heard was 717 I thought um was the last no we were down to just under 400,000 that was when we voted that increase to the um circuit breaker which dropped it down to 3.99 and change okay um so you know what I I'm I'm not going to ask my question because it's just going to take too long so I'll try and figure it out it you can ask your question because we have loads of time it turns out so my question is this is great news I feel like if somebody said to me how did how is it that there was a $1.2 million need a month ago and now it's only 400,000 I followed a presentation we had from Susan where she was saying she was sort of assigning things to Grants and other places so this is great except I don't feel like I'd be able to answer that question like how how is it and I don't if you can answer in you know two minutes um just kind of like you know Financial Magic For Dummies best shot in an elevator speech um prior to um prior to presently we didn't have a firm lock on the number of positions in the district and so salary was somewhat a spongy number we also do not yet have a firm lock on the number of additional compensation opportunities we have how much professional development is going on how much extra Services people are providing you know extra days that people are eligible for and can cash out and what the total cost effect of all of that it seems like prior administrations have budgeted all of those extra compensation opportunities and kind of one big mattress lump of money without really parsing out what belongs where and so it becomes very difficult to know exactly where you stand generally the district has been flush and so generally it's all come out in the wash but as things tighten up that kind of budgeting doesn't really work so we're transitioning from a more Global budgeting to a more minute budgeting and as we do so it's really hard to zero in on exactly where we stand until we can lock down those pieces the biggest part of this year was locking down all of the positions and we feel like we have a really good lock on that going into 25 we do not yet have the lock we wish we had on all of the additional compensation things but we're working on that we also have some issues about managing purchase orders people had a tendency to open a purchase order pay for something and leave balances and never go back and close it out things tended to dangle things tended to be neglected there was a lot of oh well that's somebody's problem well that's not my problem well whose problem is it so there was a lot of confusion and you know when you have a rolling door of people traditional knowledge gets lost and processes break down and so we're working really hard hard to get a handle on all of that so we're moving from mush to Clarity basically but it doesn't become clear overnight it's like trying to turn a a a c taker you know you can make progress but not immediate that's that's really helpful and that's a helpful explanation and so I think what you're saying is that bottom line like you thought you could have had up to a $1.2 million problem but as turns out you can one point the way the the things were trending I was we were working very hard to get those additional comp things in it's been kind of an evil habit for people to hang on to time sheets from September and not with until the end of the year so we didn't know how much so that initial number was sort of a worst case scenario okay perfect thank you so much that does explain it great thanks Diane does anyone else have any questions on the plan the July 8th July 9th plan Helen you're on mute what time is the meeting on uh July 8th I I don't know saw that it hasn't been this is new this is brand new hot off the press right now we announced is there a way to have a joint meeting of finance and the full school committee I mean rather than having to like we're going to have to wait tonight the full school committee yeah well I think we've learned our lesson we'll schedule them back toback and then make the one happen late we'll figure it out for sure but I I also want to we'll figure out the scheduling and make sure it all works or maybe it just goes to full School commit should be fine but it's at five or later is what oh you don't know no I don't know yeah okay maybe if it works out for people we can do it earlier but let's let's figure that out although we have time right now we don't have to figure it out right now but we do have one more thing on our finance agenda which is um well actually we have two things one is the discussion of class siiz guidelines so I'm going to pull up the document that you all received today um so and I'm going to make this a little bigger so the the this section is um section J and when we looked at this were some other things to clean up so but but the principle thing here and I'll just scroll down so people can see um the principal discussion that we're talking about is class siiz guidelines which is all the way on the end on page four um so this is the wording which has the 22 students in K2 and 25 students in 38 um and question I guess is do people have comments on this there were some questions I'll just mention from um I'll I'll share some of the comments that have already come back staff asked for Clarity on what teacher experience means um so that was one question and then staff also asked about um specifically about multi-grade classrooms because that's not something we do in Brooklyn now and introduce it's something that we as a school committee have talked about as to whether or not that could be something that would help even out class sizes by for example having like combined K1 or one two or two three or whatever um so that was one thing they were like is this something where Brook is this a direction Brookline is interested in going because if it's not we shouldn't include it if it is we should talk about it more um and additional classroom supports were something that they also had questions on because you know what does that mean to to offer that what is that really very specific about and do we have budget for that when it comes up so those were some of the topics that have already come up the other thing um hang on one second Caroline and then I'll Stephen couldn't be here today because he's on travel in a different time zone but he um thought that it would be helpful especially that given that this is coming through finance and part of why we're talking about this at Finance is because of the financial aspects is maybe to highlight a little bit more at the beginning of this section um the connection between budget and class size and really make That explicit for people so that they understand the tradeoffs that are being made um in this and with that I will shut up and call on Carolyn thanks um so as usual I'm going to ask for just if if it's possible to just roll back a little bit so I understand this came up up in policy in January that's this came up this came up before then because there was questions from the community specifically the heath Community again going back to this question of the third grade at Heath um was asking school committee about class sizes and and school committee I don't know if anyone was clear maybe Helen was but at least in general it was like who makes the decision about class sizes and it was clarified that it's the superintendent and the respective principal of the school who make those decisions um and then we sorry I sorry go ahead and then so we had this discussion of so that was that was in the fall not the ones that you've been party to in the fall so all the way back in the fall this conversation was already happening and um and then at school committee we had a conversation where essentially these class-size guidelines are referred to but they sort of this critical bit of how we decide our budget and everything else because this drives a huge fraction of the budget but it's not actually written down anywhere so and furthermore people point to them like and say well you know oh it should why aren't the class sizes 22 but the reality is that that is not necessarily something there's a lot of different variables that go into deciding the class size so just looking at those numbers is also not a universal thing so at a school committee in like December or something I basically was like we should write down something that was like blah blah blah and I've said it out loud and then I wrote it down in this document and that's where it came to policy in January but very briefly in policy because we wanted to get principal feedback and then it went to the principles after that you're saying that thank you so you're saying that J2 B4 class size in section everything we're seeing here in red underline is brand new language brand new language okay perfect that was that and then when you say I would love to just sort of understand the process so this got talked about you said oh I'll take a stab at it and then you're saying you bring it to staff like um you get you were getting feedback from I'm not trying to put you on the spot I'm really trying to understand principles because ideally you don't create policy without talking to the people who are implementing it right so it went to principles and also to Megan gainy who is the lead of the registration for the district and so then now this is the first time that this language with some feedback is coming back to at least a portion of school okay perfect thank you thank you uh Val you're next I think yeah thanks um I had a question on the 25 are you on purpose saying lower than 25 because the the contract says inclusive of 25 right so it's sort of lower than this wording needs to be like no more than I think as opposed to less than I'm gonna tweak that right now I actually like I'm pretty sure I cut and paste that from the only document I could find which actually had it written down as like a footnote and Susan also mentioned that to me earlier of like it unintentionally actually represents it wrong but yes it should be no more then for historically what's happened okay thanks any other comments or no no okay Helen so actually the contract to the best of my recollection unless it's changed says something to the effect of we will try in uh in all Poss in and under normal circumstances or something to that effect it's got a a qualify to keep size under 25 I would actually use that language here um rather than making it up here so refer to the CBA like basically refer to the CBA language and it doesn't talk about K to2 to the best no it doesn't right it only refers to it in you may want to split it out so we can say something to the effect of the dist has you know um guidelines that uh under as stated in the contract that under normal circum etc etc um in addition the district um has um traditionally done 22 kids in K through2 uh because of the for I don't know if you need to put it because but because something to the fact that those children need a little more um individualized attention or something not not ex I don't even know if we want to put in a because like there's lots of you have to put a because but that K through two has traditionally been but it's not part of the contract right um in terms of the multi-grade classrooms we have had that actually at Heath in the past um I don't remember what it was a distant past um it it just gives you an option it's not something you have to do but it does give uh the superintendent the other piece that generally speaking additional classroom supports have been has been maybe a part-time perah or something like that but I don't know if you want to put that in there per se well this is up to the committee right I mean we could be specific on what classroom supports mean I think that the again the question was do we have money for these things you know it's all well and good to say it but then you get people's hopes up and then we just have to dash them because we don't actually have the money to do what our policy says so I I don't know I'm leaving it open to everyone to think about um Helen are you all set should I call on Carolyn now oh I'm done I'm sorry okay that's okay go ahead Carolyn I have a few specific comments um just about the language and then sort of a General thing and I guess knowing now as I'm looking at this that this is sort of a brand new undertaking having not been part of the conversation before I think I have to really think about whether and maybe by seeing what the language turns out to be um I don't know I I'm I feel like there could be a really good discussion about the upsides and downsides of codifying this but putting that aside for the moment um I agree with Helen like I If if this is where we want to go with codifying this I don't know that saying traditionally the district has had guidelines is helpful like I think you have to refer to oh this language is not final we need to actually like say something as opposed to just the traditionally I think okay yeah yeah and then of course the contract could change so I don't know maybe it has to either come either we're saying we're basing it on the contract or we're basing it on our values um and and what we think is reasonable so that's just kind of a thought and then so classroom you mean classroom physical size of the classroom number of students with disabilities one on ones elll 504s so definitely a little more specificity within that so you want to include a separate category of number of um students who are English language Learners I guess I'd say number of students with IEPs 504s well that's disabilities right in general like or do you want to have on like do you want to be specific on IPS and 504s I don't know I guess I would whatever is sort of like the preferred language I think disabilities covers both whereas okay fine yeah um and I think it's important to acknowledge that in some cases especially um as we're expanding rise that that's going to mean that some students have a one-on-one a fulltime one-on-one and that's an additional adult body in the room um you we want to call out like students requiring additional supports or staff support or something like that something that that covers the possibility that some students will have a yeah like just that some students have a one-on-one Aid all day yeah and that's different than the next to last bullet well when we were thinking to last bullet to mean something like co- teing yeah and I was I was actually thinking of that like the assigned classroom par professional as opposed to the par professional supporting the student um right like a general par profession yeah something like this um I think you're getting too much into the weeds guys really yeah I really do I think that our principles and the superintendent really look at all these things and to we're not saying they don't Helen we're trying to codify we're trying to explain the things that go into this I guess is part of it too is like when you think about I'll just imagine our advisory committee colleagues are here today and they might look at some a grade I'm making it up Lincoln fifth grade I don't know which school any school any grade and there's only 16 kids in each classroom and they say well why aren't you rolling it up to be two classes of 24 instead of three of 16 well the reality is that you know the class sizes there are too small we can't actually have 24 kids in a class there so it's trying to explain some of the other factors it's not going to be all of them you're right we shouldn't get into the but it's trying to explain some of the other factors that are going into their thinking so that people aren't just looking at the numbers but they're understanding that the numbers are one aspect of the decision that the principles and superintendents are making actually by classroom size you mean classroom square footage because if you put class size again people don't understand what the first sure square footage makes sense sure okay okay um I lost where we were in the maybe Helen I'll I guess I'll take that as your comment and Sarah you had your hand up but now it's gone yeah I was just putting it down because I thought I was going to answer just now so um so I would like to have the budget conversation with it and um the first question I have about the budget that I'd just like to understand better is um one of the issues that seems to come up with class size a lot is that we get new students over the summer so can you explain to me a little bit how we can pivot in the summer when we already have an approved budget um you know prior to that if we need to add te teachers do you have a feeling for how that would go I guess I'm going to turn that over to lonus Assuming he's still here I can't see anymore who's here okay why don't I restate my question then does that make sense for lonus or for for lonus yeah is is he I don't know if he is he on camera off camera he's off camera lonus are you here is Jody still here or is Jody gone I'm here I just couldn't get my mouse over to the screen okay did you catch the question from Sarah okay Dr Giller what I'm wondering is um so we're starting the conversation about the finance aspect of this and so how is it in our current situation or a situation like that in the future when say we have a class size that's like around 23 24 and it grows over the summer that happens to us all the time how would we be able to add an additional FTE to that school in that grade when the budget has already been decided prior to the summer great question so what we what we will be doing in the future it's not built for fy2 uh unless we um unless we look at what we've done with the high school but what we would CL classically do is build reserves in to be utilized um for a said purpose if a classroom gets uh if a classroom if we experience an increase then we'd have FTE or the funding set aside for that that wasn't done for this particular budget just given how tight everything was for FY 25 um and then we also look at what happens traditionally with the migration or the level of migration that we have if for some reason we see an increase in one area but we see a significant decrease in another area then we would look at moving the possibility of moving a unit over to cover um in that regard so uh we we try to look at the whole landscape rather than looking at things individual does that help but that confuses me further because if we have position permanence at this point and we have an educator you know in that other classroom that's getting to be small all of a sudden can we cut that teacher over at a different School in a different grade and take the FTE and put it to a new school now that we have position permanence well what we have is position control where we actually follow um so we actually know how many positions we have uh so that we can actually move move that without uh double accounting for it as such so the it's not position permanence okay the the nomenclature is position control so if I have five teachers at my school I have a position number for each one of those um spots and if in enrollment decreases now we haven't experienced that so again that's a that's an extreme exam example that I'm giving um but if that position then drops then we do have the the opportunity to move it um now again I I used to do this in uh when I was a high school principal in New York we called it the true up process where we would do that but we would classically do that after the uh enrollment locking period uh which here is your um the day the we call it bedday in New York when we submitted our numbers our numbers got locked from the state as such fre day say that again free day October one freeze yeah so um but the question that you ask it's more about building a budget contingency uh in those cases when you are experiencing some form of an enroll with Spike okay so to to recap that it's it doesn't happen that often so what we need to concentrate on is we would probably be adding an FTE somewhere and it would come from having reserves correct Sarah one of the things we did in the budget this year if you recall we had our budget guidelines and we talked about not the the contingency the reserve fund for staff had been removed this past year and we talked about that we needed it back because that was not something that we should have done and for this year we've built in the contingency at the high school and this was going to be a multi-year build back and so um but with that said there has been some flexing like like you heard about I think at our previous Finance meeting the Pierce kindergarten dropped a section and the heath fourth grade added a section and again this is based on need so um I'm not sure that your question really got answered which is what do we do when we're right on the bubble but I think that's the hard part right that's where that's where lus and principal really have to like you know guess it what guess at what the future holds in some way um yeah I you know I think I kind of knew the answer to my question I was more just bringing this up again because we have been over this quite a few times this has kind of been the consistent issue that I've been speaking to um and I think that that's why we have the language in there that says you know um that we you know I don't know what the language is going to be because we're going to change it but we're making sure that it isn't a a promise it's more like um that we're trying to do this one question I would just throw out there before we go to you Suzanne is do we want to retain the 22 and 25 you know is there a middle ground we should be considering for grades for example 3 through five is differentiated from middle school and I'm just throwing that I see Helen already know shaking her head but I'm just throwing that out there as something that the committee might want to consider of you know is there anything is there's there's no specific reason for these numbers per se right and so you know do is there something else the committee wants to do understanding the connection with that hang on Helen you're not you're third in line go ahead Suzanne I wanted to answer your question I know you do but I'm gonna make you wait because Suzanne's been super patient go ahead Suzanne I'll be quick um kind of addressing this what I want to say is you know we need to think about are we having the budget Drive class size or is class size driving the budget there are all sorts of research about what is actually kind of an optimal class size certainly there's a range but I think we need to keep that in mind not just say the budget says this when we're it may be at this point but when we are creating our budget we need to think about what are our class sizes and what how does that impact our budget rather than saying we have this budget and a class size has to be this because of the budget it's a so you understand what I'm saying I agree with you 100% understood and agreed thank you very much that was yeah I mean and I think the point is policy should be um achievable but also aspirational where where we should be going so right are we are we driven by the budget sometimes we have to make choices based on the budget but that doesn't mean those are the choices we want to make necessarily so um um Carolyn go ahead thanks um so suzan will you put your hand down if you're done sorry go ahead Caroline um also agree with Suzanne and you Mariah just from a sort of value standpoint and a kind of what are our priorities um what does the community want and what's best for um education of our kids um and there may not be a literature that's you know specified size an exact size but of of course you know smaller classes are always going to be better blah blah I don't need to say all this um a comment and a question I have experienced in my time um in PSB um A Midsummer in fact a late summer um increase um from four to five sections at the baker school and a teacher was hired um in AUST just putting that out there and then just technically aside from whether there was a reserve built in that could be used to hire a teacher say between now and September in theory um or whether teachers could be shifted as we see see things shaking out um like I think if I'm looking at this right the Pierce eighth grade is slotted to be four sections of 15 so 60 kids in four sections but whatever without getting into the weeds um technically can the school committee reallocate funds like say we're not going to do a certain thing but we're GNA do this thing and so that's a sort of newcomer question just technically is is that a possible thing in the universe of possible things and and what does that look like technically the budget is the school committees but of course one has to March hand inand with your Administration so like could you vote it yes but you has to be part of a larger conversation I think is the right understood but just in terms of the question of like I mean obviously we have more things than we'd like to do with the finite resources that we have but there's money and it's being spent and we're choosing how to spend it so I'm not at all suggesting that we should or that one would say let's you know that the school committee would sort of go Rogue and do a reallocation but but technically that could happen too question I don't know what it means about going rogue I mean what you're saying like school committee wouldn't say we're reallocating $100,000 so that ex school gets another FTE even though the principal didn't ask for it we wouldn't do it that way but money there is money and it could be reallocated just like well I think we did do that in some ways a little bit this year with the high school right that's how I mean I'm not saying we went rogue I think it was part of the budget process we talked about different things and it came up but where I thought you were going to go and hang on Helen I promise I'll call in you next where I thought you were going to go was on you started talking about late August and you know should there be something here about the school committee supporting District building leadership in making these decisions as early as possible even you know when they're on the cusp or not that doesn't have to be in there but sometimes I think that that's when we know that there's a there's benefit to smaller classes you know is this something where we want to encourage people to make the decision as early as possible I'm not writing it in there but if someone else wants it for me the the my experience of that and the reason I raise it is more to say is coming at it more the other way of like it didn't matter that it was mid August they created a fifth section when a fifth section was needed I think that's true but I also think ideally it would be earlier yeah there's a whole hiring cycle that one wants to capture right 100% um and in a funny way that was that teacher actually didn't last um although then the kids got Marcy Prager for the rest of the year who was a phenomenal teacher but so it wasn't it I'm not sure what you're saying except I'm more just saying like to me the priority would be ensuring that our classes are the sizes that we reasonably want them to be with everything that we know whether and obviously the sooner the better for all the reasons but if it was August I'd rather have it done in August than not done at all if I was if if it was up to me okay Helen so I think we have to keep in mind what our average class size is I mean this we're talking about the outer limits here at 22 and 25 but our average class size is much closer well it was 18 I think during the pandemic maybe 17 went up to I think it's been 20 for the last few years um that's actually a very reasonable class size um and so yes we have outliers because when you have an average you have you know hopefully a bell-shaped curve or something like that where we have a few outliers and those are the ones that that we need our staff to be able to figure out and use their best judgment you know and I think that us trying to nitpick the the number no one's trying to nitpick Helen no one's trying to nitpick okay but if you put in 20 somebody who has a class of 20 will start getting upset if you put in 15 somebody who has a class you know it's sort of like you need to I think we need to have this give this ability to both balance our budget and well first and foremost have a reasonable class size and I think most teachers would agree that 22 and 25 are generally speaking a reasonable class size and then and then you want to make sure that we can balance our budget I mean those are you know to me two two important aspects um and I don't think if you look at our class sizes that that there have been that many 26s and 27s it has occurred one one of my kids had a class size of 27 uh but you know that's it's an anomaly and then you get a a an aid into the class to help with that so anyways that's my Spiel thanks um can you take your hand down uh Suzanne go ahead yeah I just you know want to remind us that this is um these are guidelines these are not as you said caps so that's really important and we are moving more and more towards um school-based budgets and so this will help the principals and the School site councils come up with the budget that will give them some flexibility and be within guidelines and so you know maybe you can put down things to consider again as guidelines but you know if a class is over or under by a little bit or for a particular reason that's really up to the school to present their budget to finance um so I I just remind us you know for a long time we did not put the but the guidelines in writing because it we got bogged down doesn't mean we shouldn't have it in writing but it just means again their guidelines and the prin the school administrators but the School site councils with the help of the finance department should come up with the budget that they need for the school in the overall budget um so just a reminder thanks thanks can you take your hand down too Sarah oh oh always remove it so promptly go ahead if we're if we're ready I would like to wait in on the multi-grade classroom language is that okay yeah all right so I would like to keep that I think that there's a lot of benefit to multi-grade classrooms um you know if in the lower grade General Ed classroom it's great if you have the leaders of the older grade with the younger grade kids and you also for some students it's great to not have the transition have the um the same teacher for two years so I think that we do want to keep that language in there um for the possibility of maybe having that in the future it makes me think too of to Suzanne's Point providing building Leaders with that flexibility to be able to consider these kinds of options um when they might be in one of these situations it gives them more flexibility with how to allocate their money I I should have led with that that I wholeheartedly support what Suzanne said about that because I think the building leaders are going to be making these decisions based on sometimes not even things that made it onto our list and so I think it's great that we all think of that as she was telling us to um there's so many different things that come up that would um lead our leaders to you know to these decisions yes and I think you're right like it does and Suzanne's right it does give them an it's an encouragement it's an encouragement to do the things that they need to to make the building with all their expertise that they have to um come up with these ideas Caroline go ahead thanks um so with respect to um what Sarah just said and what other people are saying and I think this got mentioned before it certainly obviously this has this such a fundamental thing that it's going to intersect this committee um but I would respectfully suggest this should also um have a discussion in the curriculum subcommittee and then in the policy subcommittee I guess ultimately um and then just in terms of site councils um this came up recently in some other way that I don't remember um I don't feel super confident that site councils have been meeting and that's just this like a whole I just want to kind of flag that um as a question in terms of like I mean it's it's statutory I believe um I was never on one um but if site councils are are super important I'm curious where the authority is for ensuring um that that they meet as prescribed and do the work um that's prescribed in the statute so I just want to sort of raise that as a as a question and a flag I I looked online I didn't at least in the town website um I saw from this year Pierce has been meeting I know I get the announcements Pierce Hayes rle and Lawrence had meetings um on the calendar I don't know if there were meetings at other schools that weren't on the calendar I I do know from talking to people at Baker there was not a site Council this year and it doesn't sound like there was a site council at BHS this year um don't we get the reports every am I wrong on that Mariah no no so let me let me and I'm sure lonus wants to add to this a little bit but let me um give a little bit which is that school committee itself since covid or so one of the key things that was School site cancels did fall apart a little bit before covid and then obviously we put on pause a little B like there was other fish to fry and in the last couple years have been under Linus's watch have been being reconstituted and so things like School Improvement plans had also falled apart and that's all coming back um and I would just say that one of the budget guidelines we had this year was to start to incorporate um the H making sure that there's budget for the school Improvement plans for each school as the budget under Linus and Susan's leadership transitions um to a school-based budget which this year was the first sort of step towards that so lonus I don't know if there's other things you want to add about School site councils and school Improvement plans other than just that it's a an important work in progress if you're still there I think that's a a great uh summary of it um and as you said that some of the leaders have um certainly experienced some of the struggles with reconstituting those after especially those that had been longstanding members and transitioned over to the high school and those types of things so um it's definitely top of mind for them as well and as we talk about it in terms of our leadership structure making sure that the site Council plans and school Improvement plans are um an important component and those must be uh run through the site councils and I I know that um I don't I haven't seen them recently but um probably they stopped when the school year ended or closed to but Jody's morning OTL Monday morning messages which I don't know if you ever saw Carolyn I'm not sure if you one yeah okay so one recent one was specifically about sips and sort of The Next Step which was at first we had them but they were sort of in all different formats then this past year they got a little bit closer and now they're going to be even more so like it's a work in progress but definitely it's great to see the steps that are happening um so and sorry I have I had another question too so thank you for sort of addressing that I know that's a bit of a um a Tang um but it does seem important and when we look at the budget book like there are lists of site councils and they reference School Improvement plans but um maybe those were just cut and pasted from from past documents but um no we saw all the school Improvement plans this fall and we're changing the maybe they weren't informed by site councils this year I don't know but they were definitely presented some of them were multi-year plans though Caroline so what it is is that they were prior years right okay thank you other topic and then I also just wanted to going back to the language in here um and this says these guidelines are not a firm cap so um maybe not now because maybe time I guess I'd want to sort of unpack that a little and this notion of caps um so like I see in the budget and I've heard kind of anecdotally this notion that like hay is going to be a two section school um which would mean a cap and the past there was a cap policy actually at the baker school going before my time um and then that was removed and so I I guess I would want to have some discussion maybe it's happened before about this notion that any one school could say it's going to be a xsection school because that doesn't fit logically with sort of how it would seem to me the school the number of sections should be based on the enrollment at that school and that if you're getting into caps at one school or another that's a policy so I I think that needs some addressing I'm not sure who said those things though like I think it's in the budget book that and it's been um it's been sort of said in in the context I've heard it said in the context of the conversation about the haze Rising third grade um so I'd have to sort of look for it in kind of writing and if I'm misunderstanding that's that's fine but I've definitely sort of heard that notion okay um and I would be interested in yeah I think that notion that well I guess my question is are you are you blending together a school's physical plant like Heath being a two-section school cuz that's so many classrooms no because Heath's a three section School physically well Heath has been forced to be a three-section school but is Heath actually a three-section school I don't think so just like Pierce Pierce was a five section school that wasn't you know Baker and so forth right and Heath is a three section Haze I mean I I looked at this we went during the ninth school you know we had all these charts of yeah it's built to hold I don't know I don't have in front of me five something thing three sections it's not built to be a two-section school it has the number of classrooms that can accommodate three sections well I think also the question of can I goad yeah go ahead go ahead I actually know a little bit Yeah Hayes has been when it was Heath was always a two-section school when our population went up it increased to a three section school and that's when we added on I think it was seven classrooms and uh a gym but we added two prees in there to try and accommodate it to be a two and sometimes a three section school what has happened recently is the population has moved back towards a two section school and I think that's what the principal was saying at a PTO meeting that I happened to be at and that actually Mariah was at that you know we seem we tend to be going back to at Hayes it's mostly single family homes it's not like there's a lot of multiple uh home dwellings and uh there's some two families so your population is much more stable there than at any other school I think uh even RL has much more rentals and so what you need to do is just think about the school in terms of both the size yes but in terms of also the population that can go in there and and it's not like it's set in stone you know you sometimes have a bubble and you have three sections you sometimes have a bubble and you have two I mean you hope you don't have a bubble and you go down to one where it's really complicated and what happens often times if you try and expand then you have this bubble going through and teachers change in classes every year which also is hard yeah I get all that and and that and I think that's sort of exactly what it sounds like I mean talking specifically I think about the letters that we got and heard from the current Rising third grade parents at Hayes so I I get that I guess I just want to you know flag the notion that I don't I don't know that we can say that we're going to you know keep one school I get that it's sort of naturally don't think anybody said we're going to keep and I think that's also why we have the buffer zones when Baker was exploding we have enlarged the buffer zones for Baker so that we could try and help to relieve some of that explosion you know it was built as a three-section school we added on to it and it got to almost four but it's still tight at four um Justice Heath is tight at three if you look at the auxiliary facilities like the cafeteria and the gym and the auditorium yeah I get all that I'm just saying that as a as a rule where we're looking at this policy I think when you start using the word cap we just have to be careful because I don't think we have a cap it says it's not a firm C so I also think you know this says clearly both class size and number of class sections per grade are made by decisions made by the principal and the superintendent so ultimately you know everyone's going to have if there is another enrollment surge or whatever everyone's going to have to deal with it in similar ways that there were the past they look at what's going on and schools May grow beyond what their Envision sections are um but I think that this language provides that flexibility and I think ultimately that's what we want to do is be explanatory here but providing the flexibility to district and building leadership to manage these things so this is flexible provides explanation of the different factors and gives them the opportunities to do what they need to um I just want to take one little step back from this part of the document and just ask if anyone had any other questions on anything else in the document um most of it was just me sort of like doing cleanup and for example um PSB doesn't have learning expectations anymore those were removed a couple years ago as far as I know those haven't been brought back like right Linus we only have curriculum right now and I don't know if Jody's here Suzanne is your hand up about that too or is it an older hand about something else it's a new hand it's about but it's about there's a section about if you didn't come to kindergarten didn't go to you went to private school kindergarten or no public school I didn't understand so Megan Megan gainy um provided this content this is me this is the current practice which is essentially if you if you went to kindergarten somewhere else but in a public school yeah then you can go to grade one and so that is the rule and I think this is to address the issue of People perhaps going to parochial schools nearby by trying to get in early on kindergarten and then coming for first grade early so this so this is the current practice and Megan said it's not in the policy but it is a practice and so if you went to a parochial kindergarten you went to St Mary's for kindergarten for whatever reason then you couldn't go to first grade when you're coming over to the public school apparently well only if your age doesn't meet up right if you don't right if your age doesn't meet up if your age meets up you're okay it's only if you started kindergarten early oh yes I'm sorry I I missed that does it say that you're right it doesn't necessarily say that I think maybe it needs to be clarified to clar to say that this isn't this is only ref you're don't meet the age restriction basically okay thank you I feel much better I didn't understand it at all without that thank you yeah thanks for I'll make sure the wording is right I'll check with Megan on that too Andy your hand is up yeah I would suggest that any further workshopping of other parts of this policy then not not the last bit on um H sizes be left policy subcommittee this is I just wanted to skim through if there was questions since I had done it but um most of it is literally just like word cleanup except for that bit from Megan um and again because the learning expectations are gone um okay Helen go ahead I was just going to try and explain why we did that what happened when we changed the kindergarten entrance date there were you know it was really quite complicated and and then we had an exception policy and then we finally got rid of the exception policy in terms of the date because it was just so complicated um everybody in Brooklyn is is brilliant we know that and so therefore everybody should get in and then it becomes you know it's like you can't drive before you hit a certain age you can't go to kindergarten but what we do have so people are aware is if for instance a kid goes into to kindergarten the following year because they've been they were August 31st um there is the possibility for the teacher to uh recommend that this child be moved forward into first grade even you know at the halfe Mark or whatever you know if the if it's very clear to for the child the teacher and the the principal that that's the case and I've seen it happen actually um [Music] um the the one thing go going back thank you Helen the one thing going back to this section is based on the questions of the principles about teacher experience I thought we might delete that um so I'm just going to delete it now I see Helen nodding do anyone has any concerns about deleting that I mean again this is not meant to be a whole list of what is going on it's just some of the the things that might inform um any other questions or comments oh Carolyn go ahead thanks so just going back to the real heart of the matter here and I'm I'm not sure if I if if the the feeling here is that the language should reflect the sort of work condition language that has to date been in the contract um I guess I just want to raise I I I feel a little bit looking at this like it I don't adore it I feel like it allows more airing on the side of or falling on the side of larger classes than then smaller and I think I think educ academically smaller is better and so I guess I'm wondering just to go back to these questions of K through 2 3 through 8 and the numbers and whether that's where they stay or is this a conversation about changing the 25 to 24 I don't know I just want to kind of bring it back there and and to say I don't know I I I feel like this doesn't and I know what Helen's saying I mean I've been a parent you know all the way through too sometimes we have we have averages and there are anomalies but it's the anomalies that raise the concerns and I think the concerns are meaningful because you're talking about you know a whole year of of of learning so um I agree with that too Carolyn and also sometimes the anomaly like for example say you have a school that's two sections except for this one grade that's three sections or or I'll say the size typical of two sections and then one that could be three but you trying to jam it into two it might be the anomaly but for those kids that's their experience every single year unfortunately right so that's that's the issue is when the anomaly travels with the kids as opposed to being one of the years of their nine-year experience it's actually they goes with those kids that whole time yes it well it does although although we there are I mean we do see like shifts right but for me it's like it's 180 days it's just like this is what we do this is like this is what we do and is 25 um what we aspire to do in Brooklyn I'm I guess I'm just throwing that out there um it's interesting the way that you look at it because for my Approach I assume that the superintendent and principles are always going to try to make smaller classes so we're not really like pushing for the motivation they already have the motivation to make small classes and they already understand these issues we're just writing a policy you do you see what I'm saying like it's it's I see what you're saying but I'm not sure that I agree with you based on my experience in the PSB and and what we know um and that's not to say that you know I I don't agree that that's actually the case in practice I think I think you should look at the numbers over the last uh 10 years and there'll be some years that'll be higher but for the most part I think we have maybe two or three classes throughout the system of how many classrooms k through eight that are 25 you know it's really the outlier and I think that we need to you know you could then say at 24 you're going to try and move it down I mean it's just yes it is somewhat random but not totally 25 kids fit in a classroom you know that's the important piece that they there's enough space in the classroom for those kids and that we have the the I mean I think we' be going down a really bad path to change this and then the contract with that I really do well why would we need to change the contract I mean this already doesn't match the contract so I guess I'm not sure why they need to well it does the 25 that's what we say half of it matches the contract but yeah I mean it doesn't seem like it has to match the contract to no it doesn't it does but you know I okay I do think I agree with you Sarah that I think obviously like principes and superintendent of course they want that too but again it comes down to the budget and so you know they're operating within the reality of the resources that exist um and so their their beliefs and desires aren't necessarily represented in what actually happens so do you not sure anyone's beliefs and desires policy being a way that supports principles like they want to do it and so then they can point at the fact that the policies has been written for it you see it as you see for I'll give one example like say we're I'm making this up but say there's a school which is it's May and they're right on the cusp of needing an extra section and where you know and the question is well should we need should we do this right well if the policy says we support making decisions in in you know that lead to lower class sizes because we know that you know research shows that lower class sizes have better results then maybe it helps the superintendent and principal know that the school committee policy backs them making that decision early and having it happen and because right now the policy says don't go more than this it doesn't say where you should go it just says don't do this as opposed to do this yeah I I I guess I sort of think that these that I don't know how policy is used by leaders I I guess that's what it is I I have to assume that most people want smaller classes all the time so I'm just sort of wondering the role that policy plays lonus do you mind answering that question so the what Sarah's talking about there is as as we are building um um the budget out um we certainly look at the guidelines as well as where the enrollment Trends are um and the administrators teachers tend to have um what i' call inside baseball information about some things that are happening that have are that don't necessarily come to fruition until a little bit later so all of those many factors go into sort of that decision making Point uh there is also the um uh the return aspect of a class that's too small um um and the diminishing returns that happen there when kids may be out you know the class itself is already small and then you have absences and those types of things that occur uh as well but then there's also the benefit of um the ability to uh engage in mixed groupings and those types of things within a class size that has some meat or weight to it as well so there there isn't a one-size fits-all but um um as principls and teachers are make these determinations about which kids will go or transfer together to make up a particular cohort they are certainly thinking about all those aspects of it but when we're looking at the um the budget example and I think Hayes was the one that was mentioned um that group happened to come in at a time when the cohort was small um but then there are other groups that come in when those cohorts are large and they move move through and you don't hear anything from them as well and so this this was a change and we recognize and uh acknowledge that shift that uh this particular cohort is existing but I think the point that Helen also made earlier I think my first first second year here there were a number of bubbles that moved through the system as well we had some five sections that went through um and then we had some constrictions of some smaller cohorts that went through after that and so we were seeing this expand expon this contraction this expansion this contraction and so even the points that carollyn was making about this notion of um a school being a two- strand or two section um we do struggle with that and that is not something that's unique to Brookline I've seen it in every system in which I have worked um but it follows if we are making decisions um that are educationally sound and physically sound as well those two do go together um then that expansion and contraction happens um and so this notion of having it fixed where we say for imp perpetuity a school will once it reaches a certain size will always maintain that size I think that's um that's not grounded in reality either and so we we have to have a system that's Nimble and flexible to respond to those to those various needs and so you look at uh again what the principal's desire is uh for set section uh and and I told you all before when we were building this budget um there were uh a significant amount of of asks to the tune of millions of dollars above what we actually put through that were requested and it's you know you give an educator and say tell me what you need and that's a that's an an a blank check but there has to be some reality and factchecking and balancing that goes into that so um but Sarah think you know your broad a question how how do the you know the the policy uh how does the policy impact um we we certainly look at it as we're going through setting up what the what the conditions are and we say where is the range a healthy range uh within that particular scope that we we look at and then we say well then what um how close can I get to that and so the the question that I always look at is where is the class right now and if it's sitting at capacity at the end of the year and I know what my enrollment Tendencies are from September because it's September through January we typically see the more coming in and going out and then February we tip and then we start dipping back down as well and so it's it's not finite or fixed even over the course of the year so uh we utilize that to say well if a section is starting at capacity already what's the likelihood to the point that Helen was talking about in terms of availability or real estate availability in a certain school zone what's the likelihood that we're going to see such an increase to then fill up those available seats uh if a school if a a section is starting at 25 if they're in fourth grade I I'm going to more than likely say okay we need we don't need to start that section full we need to then make um amends to get that open so that we don't start at capacity from day one especially in an area like um like an F frr for example where we're going to have more students moving in over the course um right out of the gate so all of those types of things go in so it's not uh you're you're looking at a multitude of things all the time and you're you're making decisions real time in the moment uh and you watch it to see what impact it has over time and you know that was the question that folks asked about I think the fourth grad at hay you know well why did a section get added there well the section got added because at the time when we looked at we we we dropped an anchor the average class size was above the guidelines so we put a unit there if we waited another three weeks it dropped back down so again that's the you know it's it it that's the the sometimes the luck of the draw when things happen but we try to wait it out and and be as fiscally responsible as possible but also making the decisions that are educationally sound as well so hopefully that helps uh Sarah lus can I ask a followup on Sarah's question which is how would how would this policy like how could this policy be supportive of you and the principles what should it include to really help you know other than just being a tool for everyone to be on the same page about the way this works are there other things it should or could include to help feel like you're doing things that were were sort of all aligned on you know are there other decisions that you're making that we should be I guess I'm not being very clear right now but I guess I'm wondering what else the policy should include or could include that would be helpful to you so well thank you for the question I I'll I'll take it and give it a deep Gander as well but I I always air on the side or at least when I went through my um both my principal preparation program as well as my superintendent preparation program uh our guidance or what we were taught was less is more and so this notion of trying to put everything in um when you when you when I I have the greatest discretion by having the least amount of words on the page uh when you put more words on there then it I it tends to restrict um what I can do I think the biggest um decision point I think around the the committee here is this notion of Are We committing as a district to uh this 22 and this 25 um how is this different than what we've previously done when it says it's not a firm cap I'm not sure why there's a commitment here well I mean I I guess the the question would could be posed back then why why did we have such a brewhaha about um the class sizes when they were Within the guidelines well I don't know if even the brewhaha was about the guidelines although there's that too but it was also about who's the decision maker that was my interpretation too was appeals to school committee when school committee was not the decision maker yeah so but I do think overall historically there have been um things the one thing I would say back is having the most discretion for you in my mind means there can be often or there can be opportunities for misalignment also you're making decisions but it doesn't necessarily mean school committee agrees with those decisions right so it gives you never be in the spot where we where we'll be in 100 agree 100% agreement all the time no I agree recognize that yeah but the opportunities to have some of these discussions in advance lets us avoid gives Clarity in my mind right it gives Clarity and sort of boundary conditions and I think and again I think the the broader question um around this and and again I know this is outside of the form of policy subcommittee but it's important for the finance uh piece as well it's just this notion about how do we make these determinations about when we constitute policy as such because again um the systems or the organizations in which I've uh experienced before tends to be we study something over time we uh examine what challenges may be arising for it and we say okay we're seeing a pattern of behaviors around X we need to bring this forward because this is this is not clear this is proving challenging um uh in the organization or here's something new that's on the horizon that our existing policy doesn't cover and we need to get a policy around that as well so I think uh we've had enough discussions because again where we started when I first got here and I think Helen mentioned this also was we were operating under the pandemic class siiz guidelines and I remember our first Budget Building process we were back in person and the um the folks on the various other committees were saying well you need to get those class sizes back up to what they were prior to the pandemic and we fought tooth and nail to keep them at pandemic uh for a budget cycle or so just to get the kids ingratiated back into inperson learning as such and so um we're now back to what those preconditions or those prior conditions were there as well but uh I'll look at this a little bit I read it right before the meeting um so I'd like to spend a little bit more time with it especially in light of the conversation and the dialogue that's taking place tonight I'll get to you Helen in just one sec I just want to say that one opportunity I think we have is and you just touched on this lus is to talk about um the the average class size across the district and and aiming for an average class size that allows for individual flexibility and keeping our eyes on an average class size right because but also making sure that you know as we see specific classes that they're having that people are having some of that experience as well and I don't know exactly know how to write this yet and I'll come back and think about it but these are some of the things that you all have talked about is this idea of reasonable class size average class size ideal class size you know what's the healthy range and you lineus mentioning that there's um value to large classes as well um and also the variability within the year so how we sort of allude to there's more going on and um but also we can't as you said we can't be too specific in this because then it it goes beyond policy Helen go ahead and I'm going to make you the last comment and then we're going to take a f minute break before school committee okay so I just want to remind people and I'm pretty sure we still do it we have budget guidelines that in there we put low class size as one of our our guidelines if I'm not mist or we did used to if we haven't been doing it I don't remember but for years that was what like number one priority in in in the budget guidelines so so maybe we just need to say that our priority this policy does can supplement the budget guidelines which have been modified recently right we talked about following the Strategic plan and then we had specific time sensitive issues one of which was low class sizes at the high school Helen um lower class sizes right we say right lower exactly lower class sizes but again if it goes into the policy it's really that our you know our our vision is of low class sizes or smaller classes or whatever what's low I guess that it all comes back to what's low well and you have to be careful more than that so you could have an average class size of 20 but you could have 10 that are 25 and 10 that are 15 and your average is 20 yeah you know so I any okay yeah no I agree with that and much as as I defer to Mariah's uh mathematical genius on most matters um I think I think reasonable and average are pretty different in this conversation um oh I agree these were all just things you all said and I wrote down to reflect on as I'm thinking how to write about whatever the next draft is that you all might not like and that's okay too but I think the idea was to have some conversation today take it back and come back with another draft which I I pretty sure again we were taking this from the finance lens today and I think that the next draft will probably come back through policy is my guess um for us for the next crack at it um anyway I'm going to stop sharing and we're at 625 and if it's okay with everybody we can take a five minute break manag to fill the time you said I know I just let it go I was like we got time that's the problem with having too much time we should have scheduled the other one for six but it's okay we if we'd had everything on the agenda we're saying at this link so um yeah so we'll we'll take a five minute break and then full school committee right great okay okay uh welcome to the uh June 26 2024 meeting of the Brookline school committee uh this will be a short meeting we only have three items on the Open Session agenda we'll start with administrative business I'll move that do we have a second thank you Helen are there any questions about these five items okay seeing none we can move to a vote on that um Val yes Helen yes Carolyn yes Mariah yes Suzanne yes Sarah yes uh and I vote Yes as well okay uh the next item we had was a discussion and possible vote on a reserve fund transfer request um we already heard about that at Finance Mariah has there anything to add at full school committee no all right so to summarize what we heard at Finance uh we'll get a number on July 8th um after which if we decide to go ahead with the request we would be presenting to the select board and the advisory committee likely the next day and that it's currently down to 400,000 may go lower but will certainly not go higher yeah I was also noticing there are some other Reserve fund transfer was just from other departments not just the schools I can't remember where it was there was one large size one too fire pretty sure it's firefighters um okay before we move on to our next agenda item uh Betsy would you mind asking um principal yov if she would like to be promoted she doesn't need to be if she doesn't want to but um um if she doesn't want to be part of this discussion she's very welcome SEC just one moment Jamie would you like to be promoted here can I bring you over I actually think we need her I think if you need me I'm here coming over right now the reason I I said that is Jamie has to live with whatever we vote this is for the Newberry mou discussion yes okay all right I am here I'm just gonna leave my camera off because we've been moving all day and I don't need to but thanks okay um thank you very much Jamie for for being here and for being willing to join us um yeah so um the update on the Newberry mou is that well recall that at last week's meeting we reviewed a draft um and members had some concerns and so we postponed action on it until this meeting and in the meantime Susan was test with going to the Town Administrator um with some proposed revisions and then next we heard about it um last night the select board voted a version of theou that included some small verbal changes um in on the opening page but I think did not at all address what I think was the the major concern that some members had so um Betsy would you mind putting up um just the bottom half of the first page of the highlighted version that I sent you okay so this was voted through by the select board yesterday uh it was discussed again at Town School partnership earlier today um but we didn't get into details at that point so because this version wasn't redlined it wasn't obvious what the changes were since the previous version um but the the three things that I've highlighted in yellow are added um I think that was at Susan's suggestion um so wider categories of people who are going to be allowed on the site um and also um we're able to use any Standalone storage structure that's expressly designated for for our use um now my understanding was that the the most serious concerns at last week's meeting were about that that red phrase that there will be no after school programming allowed at the building um and members felt that even with the qualification that follows um this maybe didn't give enough protection to our students um so the question what is the qualification that follows because what it says is inter perent uses such as back to school nights or parent teacher conferences but it doesn't include anything about like I don't know homework clubs or right whatever right so I think that was the concern and so you know the the intent here is we're not going to be running extended day at at fiser Hill and so no one needs to have any worries about that but I think the concern was that the language seems so restrictive that you know that it could it could it could appear to restrict like very kind of low impact or legitimate after school uses um and because of some ambiguity over what constitutes after school programming um so um Jamie do you want to speak at all to sort of your comfort level with the current uh language because you're you're the one who has to live with all of this sure yeah I've been um we've been talking about this for a long time with all the people who will be sharing the building I feel very comfortable with the language um our last bus leaves campus at 3 o'clock and nearly 100% of our students have signed up for the bus we have no intent um of running any after school programming with the exception of occasional drop in homework help on this location we um are talking with the teen center and reaching out with the public library to see if they may be able to host any after school clubs that we get up and running um at some point in the spring on their location so that our students can be at uh walking distance from home um but given that there are only two buses one that leaves at 2:35 and one that leaves at 3:00 um we have no expectation of running after school programming on this site I I think the question Jamie might be like do you feel like so I understand that you have a good working relationship with um with the town partners here right and this specifies that any any kind of after school use needs to be cleared through them with a written agreement um I I think maybe the school committee's worry might be that if you know if circumstances changed or if you know staff over or something like that could we be confident that our our students and their activities would be protected by this language yeah I'm I'm certainly not a lawyer so I can't answer that particular question but I can tell you that I feel very confident in the Partnerships that we have built in thinking about this space um the townside has gone above and beyond in preparing this space for us um doing things far beyond what we asked in order to make this space ready for our students I think they understand what that's going to entail I think we've got really clear understanding of what safety precautions need to be in place to keep our students away from any dangerous equipment in the shop um and that the primary concern really is just about making sure that the space is well cared for in a shared way and so that's why that communication is going to be essential and you know we've been communicating all along this is months and months we've been talking and working together and thinking about how to make this space work for everybody um and so yeah I can't I can't say what will happen if you know if somebody wants to go to the letter of the law I I am like as I said not an attorney but I don't have any expectation that that will happen um and I think that's probably true in a lot of cases and a lot of scenarios so I I'm not gonna not gonna allow myself to worry about that all right so in order to open the floor to discussion I'll I'll move that we approve the mo MOA as as it was approved by the select board yesterday um do I have a second for that well have any of us received this document um sorry did we get it I don't gu how would I even know what the document is that I'm supposed to be approving we did get it I don't know that's what I'm asking the original one we got yeah but this is different they approved a different version than what we saw uh they did because Andy even mentioned like the yellow language is new from what we saw I don't know what other language is different yeah I guess this wasn't n actually sent out to the school committee earlier today um well I didn't get it either Andy yeah I did not send it I'm sorry about that Mariah are you asking whether this that we're looking at is what the select board no this is what the select board approved but Andy's asking us to vote on a document we haven't seen so how can I mean we had this document no we didn't Helen they changed it but after we looked at it it had some changes were made and you can see three of them right there highlighted in y i highlighted the three that I that I saw on the first page um as far as I know no other there were no other changes in the document um but again I haven't done a word by word comparison and the document that we that was sent over by the time administrator was not redlined um so it's not easy to tell I'm still thrown off though if I can follow up on what Jamie said which is Jamie you just for example gave the use of occasional homework club but that's not articulated here and so and I'm not sure that that counts under what this is describing and I go I guess I'm confused about why like for example why would the director of public buildings why wouldn't we say an advance that P that Pierce is allowed to have a back toschool night why is it that we have to get approval for a back to school night or parent teacher conferences like I totally get maybe there's other uses Beyond these ones you expect but I don't understand why we have to get approval for back to school night like what happens if Charlie says no you can't have back to school night I mean I've spoken with Charlie I don't think that that's that is not something I am anticipating I we we've gone he and I have spoken Sarah and I have spoken Karen and I have spoken there have been many many conversations I again I don't I can't speak to the letter of this agreement but I can tell you that we are in a place where we all have a mutual understanding about what needs to be done in order to peacefully coexist in this space in a way that is safe for our students I guess I feel uncomfortable with things like basic fundamental bits of school running um not being sort of on the pre-approved list and Suzanne yeah I'm kind of with Mariah on this I feel like um this the the're tiing our hands for providing up the program that we would expect our students to have and so it's already disrupted because we're in two campuses they're not in the in the home neighborhood and so then to also say no after school programming I I don't mean I don't know if that means things like even chorus or band or um it just seems like there's a lot that goes on at schools and jimie I appreciate what this space really isn't well suited for this there is no space inside in this building that can support a large group event all of those will be happening at OS the the space is just not designed for that it's designed for teaching during the school day it's not designed for for large group Gatherings inside outside obviously we could pull a permit at feral Park anytime um you know is this space everything you would ever want a space to be no it's a temporary swing space but it provides us what we need in order to educate students and to do the programming that we presently do with the exception of after school programming which we couldn't do anyway here because our students are relying on bus transportation so we're going to have to find another place for that to happen anyway and that may be at OS it might be at the teen center it might be at the public library it might be at the BFW it we we just don't know and and transparently that has not been where our Focus has been our Focus has been on the day-to-day work of preparing these spaces for teaching and learning and in making a smooth transition for families and students we will get to that after school stuff we're just not there right now and I don't have any concerns that they're going to say to us you can't have back to school night you can't have parent teacher conferences like that that's not an issue what is an issue is they need to not set the alarm and alarm people in the building on those nights which is why that communication matters since they also have access to set the alarm and some nights they may be there well past when we are so that communication is going to be essential thank you Jamie I I could just put another sentence is to say um it just it's going to be tricky enough the students are going to feel a little bit that it's it's an unusual circumstance and I just I guess I just don't quite understand their thinking the town's thinking about why they would limit uh whether you uh would want to do some after school anything I just you know I mean I know you know how to run a school Jamie I appreciate that I really do um but I'm just trying not to tie your hands I'm trying to give you a little more flexibility this feels like it's restrictive and not um flexible so that's my thought Carolyn had her hand up thanks um I don't know what the thinking was but listening to the conversation um I'm wondering and I'm guessing that to so Jamie's talking about safety of students which of course is so important and I'm guessing that the town is bringing some concerns obviously also shared concerns about student safety um and their own liability um and it's making me wonder something um given the unusual shared nature of this and I don't love asking this question but I feel like this conversation invites this question so I don't know but I'm guessing that normally anyone who's working in a school building goes through background checks Corey checks and so I guess I'm wondering whether that's a conversation that's that whether that's been a question whether Carolyn all the people an awkward question to ask but the conversation is the conversation is making me think of of that what I can tell you is that all of the people who work in the ground floor of this building are routinely in schools they are the ones who come and fix the things when we call they are in schools during school day all the time so I trust that whatever protocol the town has on the town side to ensure that that's safe on a day-to-day basis in every school um will be enough to keep us safe in this school I guess I have maybe it's a question then of like is the concern on the townside that once the adults are gone from the building like whether kids are hanging around and and trying to avoid having kids hanging around um with Once adults are gone I just don't I don't know how this is GNA if it's going to be operating differently but okay just I was just curious whether it's sort of different where the town is coming from in terms of the desire to sort of have the building cleared out right it doesn't particularly matter if you're comfortable with the language um I just wanted to say that I appreciate what you're saying Jamie about making sure that there's alarming and communication but communication and agreement are two different things we can have prior agreement that you get to hold these events and then there has to be confirmation or something like that because right now this doesn't offer you any Assurance you'll have these events it and I I appreciate what you're saying about making sure the alarms don't get set but that's a different question than what written here um and Andy there was some other stuff later on in the document which also um I had some questions on and I'd have to go back to my other version of it to refresh my memory so I I I should take responsibility for this not having been sent out to the school committee earlier the reason for this was that when uh when we got this earlier in the day um at a first glance I didn't see that any changes had been made from the previous version which also had a we had other questions and problems with that did right so so when I thought that there were there had been no changes whatsoever I didn't see the point in sending it out again um but only just before the meeting I noticed the the things that I highlighted um response to Susan's requests okay yeah and then the um the other thing that I still was confused about was like and maybe this is a question for Jamie So Jamie if you're having students bust to for example BTC like typically there's a whole bunch of of stipended activities that happen are those all are those teachers or Educators going to come to the Third location to or to OSS or to some other Third location to do those stipended activities like how are the Educators getting to the other location is the plan that they will I mean we we're not that far in the weeds yet Mariah I last year the only stipended activity that we were able to run because we didn't have staff or anything else was model un um the play happened that's not done through us that's done through the PTO and that happened offsite some of the time and in the pi Auditorium other times we have a new play director he is still getting his feet under him he knows that there is not rehearsal space at um the upper campus and is not planning on accessing that campus as a result so we are really just talking about model UN in terms of after school clubs for middle school that ran last year and that teacher has very appropriately asked if we can do a pause on model UN in the fall so she can get her feet under her in her new space and we can look at starting it after the New Year um in a space to be determined um perhaps the library perhaps the teen center um well that's a tomorrow problem today is a moving problem well that's what I'm worried about okay all right is there any further discussion before we move to a vote I hear that your concern is that we we don't have access to that space But I it becomes exclusionary if we host at a space where we cannot provide transportation for kids home and the bus comes at three so model un cannot happen at that location regardless it maybe it will happen at OS maybe it will happen somewhere else but it can't be there regardless of anou because then kids can't get home unless their parents can um Cliff is Cliff maybe should mute because he's got a whole bunch of noises happening thank you Carolyn has her hand up thank you um one of the things I asked for at the last meeting was and I brought this up in the town School partnership for the appendix B that was the map showing the parking um to be updated to reflect the um basketball court or play Court [Music] um so I don't know Dr Giller I think you told me earlier in the day that no additional work had been done on that exhibit is that still the case as far as you know that's what my understanding is and that's what the administrator shared at the tsv again I just want to emphasize our Focus has been on moving this massive building into two other buildings and so the people who you would normally be asking to update those Maps were with me moving boxes and furniture all day um and were with me prepping to move boxes and furniture all week so that's why you don't have your map well can I ask another question though the the document that we got showing the classroom allocation didn't even include classes for 8th grade so like we're probably looking at an old map Mariah I don't know that's just what we were given when we were sh shared this last week and we haven't seen an updated one so I and there's are did I there are eighth grade classes but again Jamie there's a difference between a legal document that we're asking to be basically sign off on that doesn't include sort of key information in it for us and I'm not complaining at you I'm just sort of complaining about not having the information that all ties together to be able to support it and I'm not complaining but I'm I'm stating that we're being asked to vote on something that doesn't appear to be I mean I don't know what we're being asked to vote on because I don't know that I have to go back do we have something were we given something for this meeting and you know I I don't love voting on something that I know isn't accurate especially when it comes to something that's important I think to everybody for a number of reasons which is which is parking and construction work that's proposed for the physical plant um and I also raised a question at the Town School partnership today about um whether there was still a discussion or proposal to add a second egress to the parking lot from Fisher a in into or out of um parking area C because if there is I guess that's meaningful too and if if it's not expressed in the exhibit I at least would want to know whether there is still going to be a request for that that work and how that would impact the physical plant um Helen and then Mariah So Jamie correct me if I'm wrong but they're with the basketball court in the space that it's supposed to go into are there enough spaces for every teacher in the in the school yes plus additional guest uh and visitor parking thank you so there's enough parking Carolyn that's not my question although I'm curious how many parking spaces Jamie you need that's that's nice if someone says there's enough parking but we're being asked to vote on a legal document yeah and we know what the parking lot is we know where it is I don't know if I don't have the exhibit respectfully I do not know so but to follow Jamie how many parking spaces do you need for staff going to vary from dayto day and time to time because of the way staff travel but our maximum anticipated same time parking on that site is 35 okay there are more staff than that then work there but they would not all be there at the same time Mariah um I pulled up the document from last time to refresh myself on my questions that I had and one of them and this goes to something you said earlier Jamie is one of the things says um PSB cannot use fiser Hill Park after school hours but you said Jamie you would pull a permit but this seems to imply you can't use it you can't pull a permit anybody can pull a Park permit at any time Mariah you may not know this but at Pierce Park every time we have an after school activity I pull a permit but this says explicitly PSB cannot use fiser Hill Park after school hours now it might be that there's some sort of other thing here saying you oh unless you pull a permit but that's not written in the document it just says you can't use it and that was a concern that I had flagged before because I'm fine with it being that you have to permit it like that's that makes sense but this is not this does not say that and yep it's right there andy the second the fourth bullet down I think right that one was one I had flagged last time because I was concerned about that for similar reasons and then the other thing I was concerned about was the there there is one point it says parties May terminate this agreement by mutual agreement but later on it basically says that the town can un Lally at any point um uh terminate this agreement and those two things a are inconsistent and but B the second one where the town can unilaterally terminate is quite concerning as well so I'm concerned about both of those aspects of it and I don't understand um why why we would why the town would even want to have some like language so drastic in here and why would we would be on board with basically allowing them to there's no notice here I mean it gives you 30 days and then you're just that it's terminated to me that's just not something that we can work with when we're talking about a school year Mariah I can't speak to that but I will tell you PSB already does use Fisher Hill Park after hours for permitted activities including Sports practices so whatever that says there that's that's just not that's not how it works but that's what says and when when who knows what parks you know when you go to parks and apply for a permit and they say sorry it says you can't use it anymore that's what we'll have signed off on and this I mean part of this whole conversation is to make sure that we're protecting your and the students and the staff's interests all right it seems to me um object if you want to that we're actually not ready to vote on this we do have another meeting on July 8th um yeah Helen go ahead I just wanted to remind people that um Susan given had been working on this over the year and I think with her being gone you know that's been part of the the issue now that we're doing it at the 11th hour so to speak um you know I think that you know I don't know it just seems to me we we need to move on from this I understand people's concerns about the the minutia but I also know the people who are involved and I I can't see that this will be an issue it's Jamie is convinced that she's able to work with the people I don't know I we can wait and we can try and redo it and see if the select board will entertain it that wasn't the message I got from uh Chaz but I do see here is that we can talk with them about anything at any time and try and work it out yeah I did talked to Susan earlier today I mean she is willing to continue the process if she receives instructions from the school committee to do so okay yeah Jamie yeah and I guess I just want to say like we moved in today so while I appreciate the the place where you all are coming from um we moved in today um and they are continuing to get the space ready for us and I they have done an inordinate amount of work without this mou in good faith um and I would just hope that that's something you're thinking about because part of why we have good relationships with people is because we cultivate them carefully and thoughtfully um and we treat people with the same respect we would want them to treat us and I I am as I've said I'm not a lawyer I understand that there's often things in legal documents that you know a lay person wouldn't necessarily um feel necessary and so I can't weigh in on any of that and I'm sure that there are lawyers on all sides advising everybody but we did move in today so so at this point I would suggest that if anybody wants to they could make a motion to postpone this until our next meeting on July 8th if that if that were okay if that gets moved if now it gets seconded and passed then that's what happens and then we have to have a discussion about um how we instruct Susan uh for the next steps um if if this motion to postpone does not pass then we'll move to and vote on actually approving the mo MOA as it stands and again I apologize for not having uh had this sent out to the full school committee earlier today it was my mistake in not noticing that there were actually some I think minor changes in the wording on that that first page all right so Mariah has made a motion to postpone there second for that I'll second it okay so let's move to a vote um Betsy do you mind um taking down the um the document so that I can see all the members all right Helen a motion to postpone so if you vote yeah well I won't be Sandy here he called on to vote Helen I can't say no with being mute no uh Carolyn yes Mariah yes Sarah no Susan yes Val no um oh and I'm the only remaining member uh and I vote no so we will now move to vote on the Moa itself pen wait a minute so hold hold on we're 2 4 six it lost four to three or three to four oh it did okay you heard that I because I he didn't say it but I count it in my head yeah the the three members voting yes on this were were Mariah uh Suzanne and oh okay yeah oh actually was there a third member roting yes and Carolyn Carolyn Carolyn yes sorry okay can we now vote Andy yes Helen we're now voting on the mo MOA itself to approve it yes sorry what are we voting on we do not have a document so I I have to say from a public process standpoint I object to being asked to vote on something that we do not have I we don't have it personally I agree Andy we don't have the the the uh whatevers the the attachments and we don't have the appendices and we don't have the document um well so regarding the appendices um like if I if if ID had the document as it stands circulated uh would there still be the objection that uh the appendicies or the attachments or the exhibits rather haven't been updated well but the document appr because we don't have it well I'm saying that we didn't receive updated versions of exhibits A and B so exhibit a as it stands still doesn't have eth grade classrooms and exhibit B as it stands still doesn't have the the updated parking information what did the select board vote for did they even look at the appendix or did they just vote it without even looking at the full documentation I don't know what the select board did well I guess it's up to you but I guess I'm going to vote no when it comes to me because I I just I'm like not comfortable with this whole process but I think that's okay I think think you can vote no I mean yeah I'm just saying that like and it's unfortunate because we we don't have the we're like as like as carollyn said we're being asked to vote on a document we haven't seen and don't have the attachments for it yeah and again I apologize for not sending out the revised version because I didn't notice until too late that there actually were some minor changes from the version that we already reviewed those those minor changes were in our favor they included parents those were based on those are based on Susan's um it's 7:03 can we just do the vote now and I just I mean I I I feel like this is a potential violation of the open meeting law to vote on something that wasn't attached to the docket it's nowhere it's not in the meeting materials so I think it's it's it's funny to get you know an email from Town Council about emails that I send to colleagues and now we're being asked to vote on something that's not on the docket well it's on the docket but it's not an attachment in the meeting material attachment yeah it's not attached I don't see I don't see any problem with holding the vote on on July 8th um and in the meantime so what are our instructions to staff the question is is it just a matter of um circulating the document as it exists and attempting to have the exhibits updated or are we going to continue to press for Andy I mean I feel like I gave her specific comments and I've talked with her earlier today about those comments and I'm concerned that staff to staff this is not going to get sorted out and if it needs to be that school committee needs to talk to select board to under to to explain the impact of some of these things just so that it's clear or maybe whatever it is I don't want to I'm not trying to disempower Susan I just I don't want to um to put her in a situation which is which might which might be more challenging if there's an easier way to go about it so but you make a motion that would somehow you know organize the school committee to to do that uh I move to for me to work with Susan to get it sorted out I don't know to get it sorted out you're talking about direct um you know direct discussions between school committee and select board well first starting with me and Susan making sure that I think we have the key issues as they were articulated in my document and when she and I talked earlier it seemed like she had also most of those had been things that had been picked up but again as you noted she hasn't been in the loop this past couple this recent time and so maybe some of these things have not been entirely caught so we'll go through and clean it up and make sure we get these things and see if we can get select board to agree to revoke given these changes all right so I think this is sufficiently different from the previous motion to postpone so I'll make a new motion to postpone until July 8th and in the meantime um we designate Mariah to work with Susan um to have hold discussions with uh Our Town Partners on concerns raised both in the last meeting and in this meeting do I have a second I'll second all right thanks Mariah all right Ellen yes Carolyn abin Mariah yes Sarah yes Suzanne yes Val yes and I vote Yes as well all right um finally we uh have executive session so I will move to meet an executive session let me get the wording up pursuant to mgl chapter 30A section 21A for the following purposes purpose three to discuss strategy with respect to collective bargaining with the beu unit a and Par professional unit if an open meeting may have a detrimental effect on the bargaining and litigating position of the public body and the chair so declares and purpose 7even to review and approve executive session minutes from the following meeting June 6 2024 do I have a second second thanks F Helen yes Mariah yes Dara yes Suzanne yes V yes Carolyn sorry yes and I vote Yes as well and we will not be returning to open session do we have a separate link yes okay um Betsy sent it at 11:21 a.m. thank you y okay bye everybody all right see you on the other side