Avenue here in the beautiful City of Cape Canaveral Florida I call this meeting to order and with that council member Davis would you please lead us in the pledge flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay thank you thank you Council City staff and everyone who uh has joined us here today here at the the chambers and online participating we've got a full agenda tonight city clerk please call the role council member Davis here council member Jackson here mayor protim Kellum here mayor Morrison here council member Willis present everybody's here all right this time we can approve of the agenda as written if so I don't really think we we can take action or if there are any amendments Council we've got one two three four presentations public participation three consent agenda items three public hearings three items for Action four items for discussion reports and two informational items item so there aren't any changes looking for a motion to adopt as written make a motion to adopt the agenda is written got a motion by council member Willis second by mayor part Tim Kellum any further discussion seeing none city clerk council member Davis four council member Jackson Mayor protim Kellum mayor Morrison four council member Willis four that's 5 the agenda stays and we now move on to the presentation and interviews portion the first one we have here our supervisor of elections for Bard County Mr Timbo banck to discuss 2024 election Readiness thank you very much I appreciate the opportunity and the invitation to come out and speak uh my name is Timbo banck and I'm your Bard County Supervisor of Elections um it's a pleasure to come out here to the beautiful City of Cape Canaveral weather wasn't so nice getting here but uh you know we managed to make it okay so I want to talk a little bit about upcoming election cycle and what uh we like to call being election ready uh people don't realize that in a presidential year we have 155 days of active voting going on of ballots moving and that's because before every federal election actually before every election 45 days before each one the mail ballots go out for our overseas military and our CI and civilian voters and uh for the March election and the November election we actually can count those ballots up to 10 days after so three elections 45 55 55 you got 155 days of ballots moving around and that doesn't include all of the work and office stuff that my office does to prepare 1100 pole workers 89 polling places uh 10 early voting sites and all of the work that goes on behind the scenes so I wanted to give you just a couple of statistics and information before I get into it here um uh Cape canaval currently as of today has 7,074 registered voters in the city um of those SE a little over 1,700 are registered Dem 3,200 registered Republican and another 2100 or so registered as no party affiliation or other party uh now I like to give those statistics even though all of the city council races are nonpartisan at least now there was a couple of legislative things that were kind of proposed last year but as it stands all of the cities and towns are still nonpartisan um upcoming elections we've already had our first election that was our warm-up round in a August I'm sorry March and now we have our August primary that will be on August 20th and the deadline to register to vote or to change your party to participate in the primary races is this Monday July 22nd and so we call that the book closing deadline so that is your deadline to register it's 29 days before every election and we have already mailed out the ballots for our military and our overseas voters those went out on July 5th and the mail ballots will go out for the rest of the voters this Thursday July 18th uh I'm going to talk about mail ballots a little bit later uh we will have early voting August 10th through the 17th and uh that will be at at 10 locations throughout Bard County uh we have a website vote bard. goov where you can click on those uh wait uh the early voting sites and not only can you see the locations and where they're at but we also have real time wait times that are out there uh so if you see I don't anticipate weit times in the primary but as we get into the bigger elections in the general you can see what the wait time is at let's say kowas Island Park which would probably be the closest one to uh this location here and uh you might see that hey maybe they've got a 30 40 minute wait but if you go just down the road to the Dr Jolie Community Center there'll be no weight at all uh early voting any voter can vote in any early voting location uh whereas on Election Day you have to vote in your assigned polling place I did want to give a shout out to the City of Cape Canaveral first off it's it's always amazing working with your city clerk Mia she does a wonderful job and getting us all of the election information the candidate information but you guys kind of take it a step further and really help promote everything on social media that my office posts so whoever's managing all of that Social Media stuff and everything between the signs on the road and everything about upcoming deadlines and all uh very much kudos to you you guys do an amazing job and we really appreciate you helping get that voter education message out there um for the November election uh that presidential election will be November 5th and the deadline to request a mail ballot for that election um will be uh the mass mail goes out October 3rd but the deadline to register to vote is October 7th now unlike a primary election which is closed uh primary uh party system in a November election anybody can vote for any candidate on the ballot and that's where all of the camp nval city council races and most of the municipalities have their races on that November ballot it's also where we have any Municipal referendums you know right now we've got six Constitutional Amendments that are going to be on the ballot and we've got at least one maybe two County Commission uh County referendums and then I don't remember on the forms if Cape Kabal is going to have a referendum or not um if there is we'll we'll put it on there for you guys no problems at all so as we go into the election cycle here we talk about being election ready and having a plan for how you're going to cast your ballot in this upcoming election in Florida we have three methods of voting that are authorized by Statute male ballot early voting and election day male ballots have changed significantly since uh the last election in 2022 my office sent out over 150,000 male ballots and over 95,000 of them were returned however the legislature made changes that wiped out all mail ballot requests effective July I'm sorry January 1st of 202 uh 4 23 so all the mail ballot request that we had on file from that last election all got wiped out at the end of that year and we started with zero we have worked to build that request list up educating voters making sure that they are aware that if you want to continue voting by mail you have to re-quest your ballot and that request is only good for one election cycle so if you requested a mail ballot from 2023 on till today you're good for the rest of this year but at the end of this year that mail ballot request will again expire and voters will have to do that I've been in elections 15 years I've overseen 31 elections and the legislature has changed this four times since I've been in office so you've got we went from two cycles to one cycle to two now we're back to one cycle that a male ballot request is good for uh we're back up to a little over 66,000 male ballot requests countywide right now so we're a little over a third of the ballot request that we had I do believe that you know some of those in 2022 were a little bit of a leftover carryer over from the covid you know 2020 and and that kind of stuff where the majority of Voters voted by mail in those you know coming off of those covid years but I think we're going to see more of an even split a third you know between the mail ballot early voting on Election Day the uh mail for early voting like I said we'll have 10 locations any voter can vote in any early voting location so if residents of Cape canille let's say work in Titusville or Palm Bay they can go to those locations and cast their ballot down there on their lunch break or whenever it's convenient or they can do it back up in in this neck of the woods up here either way works for us but again election day which I like to call your last chance to vote uh you have to vote in your assigned polling place on Election Day so keep that in mind I always tell people that if you wait until 6:45 p.m. on Election Day and you show up and there's 100 people in line to vote don't get mad at me because you had to wait in the line because you waited till the last 15 minutes to cast your ballot now as long as you are in line by 700 p.m. you will be entitled to vote we have somebody that Waits at the end of the line so that everybody is entitled to vote and we've see that sometimes in the general election Cycles where we have you know busy in-person turnout so how to be election ready besides having that plan knowing the methods of voting make sure that you're registered vote check your voter registration status at vote.gov and there's a little thing that says registration status you put in your name and information and we'll tell you what we have for your Precinct your polling place your resident address what we have for your registered political party and on your polling place we'll have a picture of the polling place and give you directions on how to get there and all of that information is there it'll also tell you the status of your mail ballot request so know where you're at um keeping your signature up to date is also very very important especially if you're a male ballot voter by law I am required to compare the signature on file on your voter registration to the signature that you sign on that mail ballot certificate envelope and we have to match those and we match every every single envelope that we get back to ensure that it is that voter now Florida law does allow that if the signature does not match I am required to call text email and send a letter to those voters giving them the opportunity to cure that signature by submitting a formal affidavit and giving us a copy of their ID and then we can Count Their ballot and you can do that up to 48 hours after election day so there is a cure process in place um if you want to see your existing signature you can go into any one of my four offices or you can just simply fill out a voter registration application and update your signature the vast majority of our voter registrations come from the DMV so the signature on your driver's license is most likely what we're seeing on your voter registration uh I can tell you that we do take the signature matching very seriously my first uh election as the supervisor of elections the November one uh my staff rejected my own signature on my ballot and was because after getting appointed I started signing so many different things between uh you know payroll checks and accounts payable and all these purchase orders my signature got very lazy and so I had to do the Cure I did actually the process myself I had the pleasure of calling one of our state representatives and informing him that his signature didn't match that he had to cure it and he actually thanked me and said the system's working and you guys are doing exactly what you should be doing on that signature matching process what I tell people is when you're signing those electronic Sig pads like you do at the DMV or like you do when you check in at my office sign an electronic Sig pad like you would a paper document sign it like you would your mortgage statement because that's how you're signing a piece of paper on your mail ballot envelope you know just keep your signatures consistent but if you've had a life changing event as we get older our signatures change we just want to keep that up to date the last thing I want to talk about is election Integrity uh we are a leader in the state when it comes to election Integrity people look to us to see how we should be doing things and the best thing that we ever did was in 2021 we implemented a system called clear ballot and it is an automated independent audit system and we conduct a 100% audit on every race every Precinct and every ballot in every election and we accomplish this by scanning every ballot twice so when a voter feeds a ballot in at an early voting site or election day into that certified voting equipment that I'm required by law to use or those male ballots that get that get tabulated on that same equipment we run them through a second system using scanners that you can buy at Office Depot Staples just uh we call Commercial off-the-shelf scanners they're not connected and we scan every single ballot and we compare the results to guarantee the accuracy of the vote and I can tell you in the 2022 general election we scanned 549,000 ballot Pages we had over 7.9 million ovals or votes filled in across those half a million ballot pages and we were 99.99 2% accurate between the two systems and we've never had an election that was less than that I think that's the gold standard for election Integrity is doing that 100% audit and we're very proud to lead the way here in Bard County with that uh with that I'm more than happy to answer any questions that anybody might have on the council and appreciate the time that you given me to speak ranic thank you very much for taking the time to do this it's very much appreciate very important Council any questions for our supervisor of elections I have one thank you for coming this evening no thank you very much I really appreciate the opportunity mayor protim um I know that U there was back and forth with the sample ballots where are we on that are we so I'm glad you asked that so uh for those who aren't sure last year I had a fight with the County Commission where they tried to take the funding away for our sample ballots uh luckily we were able to fight back and got that funding restored so every voter in Bard County will get a sample ballot this year thank you any other questions again thank you very much thank you much you guys have a great day thank you than okay great so now we have a couple of presentations the first one here is a presentation uh of Institute for elected Municipal officials no one's here I don't think right for that it's me just got it and so this right here created in 1992 The Institute for elected Municipal officials IO was designed by the Florida League of cities to help elected officials in Florida's municipalities to effectively meet the requirements of their elected roleo is an intensive two-day Academic Program which offers a comprehensive overview of Florida municipal government instruction modules focus on the numerous aspects of municipal government including budgets accounting taxes and other sources of revenue and public officials Li ability traditionally the city honors the city council members who complete their imos by scheduling certificate presentations the next council meeting uh after staff receives a copy of FLC and the city received the certificates for council member Davis who completed both Theo October on the 14th through the 15th 2022 Ando 2 on April 28th through the 29th 2023 and on behalf of the Florida League of cities University mayor I West Morrison will present council member Davis the IMO Ando two certificates of completion attached here with council member Davis thank you very much if you'd like to say a few words and maybe go to the front we can take a picture of these certificates e [Applause] coming because it was during the time frame of covid and they were they just missed out on sending my my certificate so I'm glad I finally got them and thank you Mia yes thank you and congratulations the next one I have I will not go through reading the exact same thing but uh council member uh Jackson here if you'd like to go forward take a photo I'll present this to you down there council member Jackson completed hers on June 7th through 8 2024 uh so congratulations to her as well [Applause] thank you everyone um I really didn't want to accept this tonight because Kim has been so involved council member Davis in the league of cities for so many years and I was like oh I hate taking this day from her because she's been involved for multiple years um is our representative and that type of thing but I decided to go ahead and do it so thank you for um for your applause and I enjoyed getting to learn and go go through this portion of their training that's awesome well thank you both again and congratulations we're now at the fourth presentation and final one of a proclamation declaring July 19th 2024 as parks and recreational Professionals Day to city parks recreation Community Affairs and staff I will come forward to the podium and uh present this Molly I can't I'm going to read it first awesome okay good good here wow and there's more thank you all for being here this is an official proclamation of the City of Cape canaval Florida whereas the City of Cape Canaveral recognizes that the field of Parks and Recreation is a diverse and comprehensive system that improves the social environmental and economic health of communities worldwide and whereas the City of Cape Canaveral exemplifies its commitment to providing Park and Recreation services through the conservation and maintenance of 27 Acres of Green Space which includes 10 Parks four playgrounds two Youth Sports fac facilities numerous athletic courts and three brick and mortar facilities that provide quality of life programs and amenities for all ages and whereas the skilled work of Park and Recreation professionals builds Community cohesion and resiliency connects people with nature and one another and provides opportunities that promote healthy living social equity and environmental sustainability and whereas the city of Cape Canaveral values and respects its Parks and Recreation Professionals for the essential Services they provide in the development of programs hosting events and ensuring that our parks and recreational spaces are clean safe inclusive welcoming and ready to use now therefore I Wes Morrison mayor of the City of Cape Canaveral Bard County Florida do hereby Proclaim July 19th 2024 as parks recreation professional day in the City of Cape Canaveral hereby recognizing the hard work and dedication of these Professionals in service to our community signed and sealed this 16th day of July 2024 thank you [Applause] [Applause] thank you mayor and Council um this is the first time that this department has been recognized IED like this uh in all the records that I've looked through and I you know I spend a lot of time looking at old old records and especially the boards and whatnot um but because this department is so spread out over the 27 acres and multiple facilities that were mentioned in the proclamation it's rare to see this many of us in the same place at the same time and as parka as we're affectionately called because our name is too long to say every single time um it's a department of 13 Park and Recreation professionals and eight of which are City residents here in Cape Canaveral which is like triple of what it was when I first came here in 2014 and I'm incredibly blessed to have such an amazing crew and I couldn't do what I do without the support of each and every one of them so thank you for recognizing my staff today [Applause] thank you the responsibilities of that department has grown since I've been on and uh we're operating as we heard at a much higher level than a decade ago and so thank you all for all you do uh to make Cape canaval better Council thank thank you thank you that's great we'll have to do that one again honored to be a part of the first one thank you so the public participation p portion of the meeting is before us we're at 6:32 p.m. I've got a few public comment cards here for those of you who are listening online and would like to participate we do allow for uh two-way participation we ask that you please raise your hand uh we will uh unmute you make sure we can hear you and you will have uh time to speak we'll start with the folks here who joined us today thank you again for all joining we have a a light uh here in front of me uh green we have 3 minutes at the yellow light there's about 30 more seconds left and we ask you w please wrap it up uh once the light goes red and sounds off and with that the first card I have is Mr John Benton don't see him there he is Mr John bitton the floor is yours thank you okay I'm here for my code reduction hearing this has been going on for 10 years you're a deacon up here at the Kev at Kevin man came in and testified at a code enforcement hearing that I was living in a warehouse and the police officers deputies came and investigated for four months and made reports none of those deputies would come in and testify I lived in that warehouse I had my driver's license and my electric and my phone bill to prove that I did not live in that warehouse driver's license in the homestead that was state issued I threw in my electric bill and phone bill but they took Kevin man's word for it he said he didn't have anybody living in his Warehouse I did not know it that night but 3 weeks later I found out his son was living in a warehouse up there and he was on the sex offender site using it as an address and he got arrested for it and it took me a year to get you guys to do something about it I told you he's up there and his son's living in the warehouse you owe me a code reduction hearing you let Kevin man get up there and testify against me telling them that I live in a warehouse and a police officer in the unit next to me that I own the unit I'm his landlord he's up there 160 hours the month before that meeting he's keeping track on the calendar because he's rebuilding a car and he's a cop in Cocoa Beach and he was tired of being a cop he's tired of the pressure and he wanted to know if he can make a living at how long it would take him to rebuild a car and sell it and he commented I was in I was in Virginia for a month you guys you guys put religion in front of what's best for this America you put Kevin man because he's a deacon in the Presbyterian church and the code enforcement board chairwoman Mary Russell she belongs to the Presbyterian Church in Coco Beach she's not going to call out Kevin man or his son for living in the warehouse board members of churches and Christians schools cover it up and what I was doing in that warehouse is I was coming out on a Jewish school in Winter Park what they did to me when I was a child when in 1969 that's what I was doing in the warehouse and I was sending the emails from that warehouse to judge rainwater at the courthouse because doctors said John you need to tell people what these do what these people did even though it was 30 40 years ago you owe me a code reduction hearing you you should not put religion above what's best for this country I'm an American I have a right to defend myself Kevin got up and testified after me oh John lives in his Warehouse I don't have anybody living no police officers came in and testified I lived in that warehouse I walked around with them at least a half a dozen times a half a dozen police reports I got the first one they they and they wrote there's dry goods on top of the refrigerator I have in there I had a lawn service man I got a refrigerator in there to freeze Gatorade I don't live in a warehouse I lived 20 years in a condo here on Tyler Avenue and the very first coun meeting I came to Mr Randall said I know you don't live in a warehouse John you live on Tyler thank [Music] you okay got a few more cards here Miss Pam as flicky hopefully I said that correctly now you did select item number eight welcome to speak now now especially it might take us some time to get here um but we that is a thank you very much uh item for action will be taken up so floor is yours thank you m Pam can I hand you some pictures if you want to provide it to a lieutenant here I think he can distribute it thank you one moment please I'm not sure oh it it appears do you mind when we get to this item coming and speaking at that time sure is that okay I assume you would unless you need to leave or something or go but I do you intend to stay when we get to it we will we will try to get to it as soon as we can I think that makes a lot of sense yes thank you I appreciate being fible thank you Mr City attorney okay next one is got a few with item number six uh Mr Michael De Christopher Mr de Christopher do you intend to speak I think during the public hearing during the public hearing yep that makes sense okay same with the other one number six which leaves two more that do not have an agenda item selected um Miss Tamara mulbach hi Miss mbec thank you how are you doing thank you for giving me an opportunity to speak uh the first thing I need to do is it apologize to the council uh for my uh Outburst our last meeting that we had um not there's no excuse for it just respectful especially to um council member Davis and I apologize and I hope that you will accept that apology thank you you're welcome not my best moment um just some just some quick things quick hits I know um there was some talk about revising Sops creating Sops best practices employee handbooks those kinds of things um I I would recommend that uh there's a lot of small cities out there don't re reinvent the wheel reach out to HR people for HR handbooks in small cities and code enforcement and things like that to um get back best practices and find out what their um Sops are and steal and borrow and and and um use what works and disregard the rest I know that we're working on I know we talked a lot about culture change in the last meeting it's a hard thing to do is changing culture it takes time um I would recommend in that situation is to go ahead and to rebuild the trust is to set up some focus groups get a consultant in there for that and talk to staff and talk to city council and talk to uh your board members and um then work some action plans from that I think you get a lot of bang for your buck with that and then work towards rebuilding um trust I still can't let go of 5 2423 we know why it happened but we still need to know who entered it how did it happen it's not it's a falsification of City Records and it should not be a tolerated and you shouldn't let it go until you find out who when how it happened we don't have the answer to that yes yet I just want to point out real quick on 57 2023 that special meeting at two two hours and 45 minutes in and 35 seconds you'll see Brian Palmer lied to the city council I saw this explaining it to my city manager we pulled up the field notes and that's where I saw it it did not exist then so that could not have happened um again building trust uh yeah I need to answer to that question please um and um so get to the bottom of that thank you and that's really all I have tonight thank you okay uh Mr Pat Campbell I have two cards one of them an open one Patrick Campbell Cape gaval um I'd like to talk to you tonight about four items try to make as quick as I can the first one is the agenda this Council has um mentioned before that the agendas are too long many times you have to extend the time frame to accommodate an agenda it's problematic for a number of reasons um but the thing I want to point out is that as a citizen I really can't expect Council for a long agenda to get up to speed on these complex and weighty issues in the City of Cape gaval and the length of time you're given it's just not reasonable I don't I don't I don't I don't see how you do what you do let alone uh go through some of these things and gain sufficient knowledge to be able to direct the city um from a basis of facts and I'm also interested a comment at the budgeting meeting where you're um your voted in raise is going to kick in you voted in a couple years ago I just want to point out that over that two years whatever you got's gone just buying bread and milk so uh you you're still not gaining anything I'd like and and I understand your reluctance to vote in your own raise and I don't think you should have to I think Council salaries um should be directed by some some Milestone Point within City uh records perhaps a percentage of total City salaries perhaps a percentage of total City budget and be written into the charter well you don't have to vote in your race and it needs to be meaningful the city looks the way it is performs the way it does in large part of your influence you should be paid for that I don't expect freebies these are difficult issues to deal with and to spend enough time on it to to give it what it needs the attention it needs you should be reimbursed for that I know all of you each and every one of you spend an inordinate amount of time on the city not even close to being compensated for it as a citizen I don't expect that I expect you to be compensated fairly for your time I mentioned U at the budget um portion of this meeting about participative budget I've mentioned it before I would like the council to at least do a little bit of research on what that is and why it's beneficial uh in short it just say citizens gets the weigh in uh at some level of City expenditure that we get some awareness and some capability to direct it so please take a look at that and yeah we're we're struggling with code enforcement we have for for many years I've been involved in code enforcement for many years um and and I know that's tough job I'm not here here saying it's not a tough job but it's particularly tough if you don't have a rulebook to run by if you don't have metrics to be able to tell how you're doing it's a really tough job so I'd like the city council to consider uh Contracting it out just pay somebody to do it that way you have total control over what metrics you're provided what performance indicators they work to thank you thank you okay I believe that's it the other cards I have have designated agenda item numbers if you would like to speak now um please raise your hand otherwise I'll wait yes Miss Raymond um I have two cards for you come on I'm going to speak about Angela Raymond at 7048 Sevilla Court Cape Canaveral uh I think it's a good idea to take addresses to know that people are residents when they speak I just want to speak about tennis court number five we have tennis courts and hopefully we have a maintenance schedule tenis court number five uh earlier in the springtime was D it had two holes two holes were drilled into tennis court number five and then there was like a little bit of a hump which made it a little dangerous for playing tennis so for a while we didn't play on tennis court number five but we like to play on tennis court number five because we can sit in the shade in between sets my whole point is the company came in I think to find out about about the water issue under the tennis court all right hopefully there's some type of a report on that what I'd like us to do is finish the job because once August and September start we start the Space Coast Tennis League and we have guests coming from all over the county and it's rather embarrassing to have the blue or the green whatever color it is it doesn't quite match and it it was partially shaved down but my whole point is when we start a job please let's finish the job all right rather than to leave it half done thank you that's that's all just a small item thank you thank you okay for those of you who are uh home and I should ask again if there's anyone else to is what needs to speak now and does not want to wait till the item comes please raise your hand seeing none for those of you who are online participating if you do intend to speak please raise your hand I'll recognize you and unmute you don't see any hands raised at this time okay seeing n we'll go ahead and close public participation uh bring it back to the council thank you all for taking the time to come and speak okay so we have our consent agenda now we have three items on it if Council chooses to remove any obiously can do that if not uh we can approve just we're approving the minutes we got a resolution on on a water service agreement with the city of Coco and we've got an approve uh proposal from tetch and the amount of $98,000 any issues I'll make a motion to um approve the consent agenda as is I'll second got a motion by council member Davis got a second by council member Willis to approve the consent agenda any further discussion seeing none city clerk council member Davis four council member Jackson four mayor protim Callum for mayor Morrison four council member Willis four okay consent agenda passes 5 now we're moving on to the public hearing portion of the meeting our first item we are at item number four resolution number 20246 adopting a water service agreement with oh I'm sorry excuse me resolution number 20244 adopting a tenative proposed millage rate for the levy of adval taxes for fiscal year 2425 on all taxable property located within the City of Cape canaver Bard County Florida this is a public hearing item but first I want to touch Bas with our city manager if there's anything we need to no just uh for the s for the sake of the audience who wasn't here for the 5:00 meeting we had a workshop meeting uh this is the first time we had official look at the official proposed budget this is a follow-up item to that it's a very important one where we adopt a tenative proposed millage rate and um the the calculation of the assessed property valuations uh provided to us and put against the capital Improvement Pro Plan that we want to do all the things we want to get done uh the calculation comes out to a 3.622 to combined millage rate uh to get all that done now it's combined with our our government military plus the library dependent special district that Library dependent special district military doesn't change that's 0432 was what it was before and stays that way but uh so it's 3.57 n0 for the government millage so it combined 3.622 um as we discussed in that first meeting at 5:00 we we all we like to look at what it would what roll back would be um this is this is the this is the highest that we're proposing to get everything done roll back would be less and we'll also look at a middle of the road number um John if we do 3.622 what is the percent increase over the millage rate from last year you have that number in front of you yes for the general government because the library is very low um 7.41% 7.41% increase if we want to get all those things done I know this Council cares very much about getting the need to haves before the want to haves so that's why um we we talk about things that we could possibly cut uh to get there um but at this point this item is just to set an a tentative proposed millage rate knowing that there is a another Workshop meeting on August 6th and then we've got the two regular scheduled budget meetings in September we've got three more looks at the budget to decide what we're going to cut and finally get to the milit r that we all agree to so what we set here tonight is not set in stone is this Council if if this Council for example picked 3.622 two you can always bring that down to some other millage rate that that you all agree to but you can't bring it up you can't go above it so whatever you set for this item just bear that in mind mayor thank you Council any questions for staff on the resolution at this time we will go to the public next bring it back discuss and see what's needed no questions okay this is a public hearing item if anyone would like to uh speak on it uh this is item number four resolution 20244 adopting a tenative proposed millage rate for adorm taxes anyone chooses to speak please raise your hand online as well and we'll make sure you're heard seeing none we'll go ahead and close public hearing bring it back to the council mayor I'd like to make a motion that we go with the middle of the road um tax um the milit rate because we can always go down but we can't go up I you know I'm not in favor of a 7.41 increase in taxes and I think when we go through through the budget for the next three meetings there'll be places where we can make cuts um and hopefully bring it back to rollback but um but I think we should start with the middle of the road mayor if I may uh just for the record that as proposed is 3.41 34519 as the general military that in addition to that would be the library of 0432 combine John what would that be correct um calculator let me do the that would be 34941 with the library one more time please 3.49 41 that's the comb that includes yes do we need to know the breakdowns of those uh or can we no vote on the combined you can vote on combined good deal 34941 34941 and that is an increase over the roll back rate which would uh well well there's an increase over the roll back rate then there's an increase in the amount of revenues that that would would create from my understanding um 34941 the middle of the road rate the one on the 3.45 okay I see my um the the amount of Revenue if I understand this that this would it's $250,000 roughly Less in the general fund and and uh 129,000 less than the proposed rate yes sir but is it also isn't that $250,000 more than last year is that another way to look at it or do we know the increase no no all we're looking at all we're saying there is is that based on our budget and with a starting point of a proposed millage of 35790 we're basically saying if you go middle of the road it's going to reduce um it's going to reduce the millage by 250k that's all we're saying so it reduces the amount of taxes we'll bring in yep and so the the proposed rate um that we have mayor Pro Tim Callum I believe did you make the formal motion Miss okay I think we're looking for a second I'll make a second on that sorry about that got a motion by mayor Pro Tim Kellum uh in a second city clerk we're good on that rate or the the motion the total she well the the the motion was middle of the road yep so we have the 3.4 941 total combined combined combined yes that's what I have to okay that's was the intent of your motion got it okay Council uh I was discussing it before I got the the motion in the second excuse me um thank you for your patience I just want to make a statement um that this year's Revenue at the the proposed rate was roughly $7 million this rate will bring in $250,000 less roughly yes okay and then to go a roll back rate it's roughly $500,000 less than right going 250 down but if you go roll back you're going you're going to go down like another 250 500,000 total right but that number would be roughly the ADV Orum last year um 6.3 million right on page 20 of the your budget book yeah so that roll back rate would bring roughly a similar amount of Revenue into the City and taxes 6.3 million right the proposed rate to do everything would be 7.1 million my statement is this this is unprecedented for Cape Canaveral and in the respect to the amount of money now property values have increased um and those roll back rates are are coming down but we usually range around four to four four and a half million a year and then we got up to the five million once it you know the 2020 and Co started hitting last year we hit six million now we're going to 7 million and if you go back to page I guess uh in the budget book where I'm very thankful for what our finance director and team did they actually did the calculations based on roll back rate I want to thank you on the record for that that was very very helpful I didn't have to go you know figure out my own math and so as soon as I get that page 70 70 78 I think that's where you want to go thank you very much so I am going back to the to the budget book where that uh comparison is my statements are 78 thank you very much so we can see the bottom line shows 7, 122,000 this will be roughly yeah 6.8 or um page 78 oh thank you I'm just talking to the city clerk I'm talking to the city but she's she's actually pulling it up that's oh yeah yeah yeah she's pulling up on okay I'm looking at in a book perfect so so thank you the the year the bottom highlighted yellow bar is obviously what we're considering tonight um the 3.62 is the was the proposed rate to do everything we've got a rate lower than that uh still above roll back rate I middle of the road but this is 8.94% higher the 3.62 rate if I understand this is 88.9% higher than the roll back rate of 3.32 is that what that's right solving for okay so another way of saying it is roll back rate being the equivalent of last year we're a little under 9% higher than last year rate that's just the rate and that to me is it doesn't mean a whole lot because it does we don't translate it into Dollars over to the far right greatly appreciated that the percentage change in revenues is very helpful because that tells me that that rate bringing in 7.1 million I understand that is 12.4 7% roughly 12 a half% higher than last year's revenue is that what that's measuring the previous you're dividing the 7122 by the previous years so a 9% increase in the rate results in a 125% increase in Revenue under this year and when you go back on the 10y year which is great um 201718 about a 20% increase in the rate 21.3 roughly increase in revenues and that was like four years in a row at 5% I think our finance director was talking about hey you're going to need to eventually catch up and and do a tax increase when you said that I thought about you know a year like this where you're trying to do something big we took on um some loans and and had had some decisions to make either way that year I always viewed that as wellow that was a that was a big jump and then every year after we've seen an increase in revenues which is which is natural especially with new development and stuff uh but on the rate side if we say we decreased taxes based on the rate the years that that happened the last year that happened where we decreased taxes was 2019 2020 went roughly 64% below the roll back rate still had roughly 4% more money than than last year next year we we had a true kept it at roll back rate 0% increase in the rate and just notice the next year even though we didn't we we still had a 5% increase in Revenue then we kept it at 0% again and I think what we did in 2223 was a 4% increase and then went last year we went up to a 7 and a half% increase and so when I see this year's increase that middle of the road as a percentage I think you asked was that what you had asked city manager John what was the rate increase John middle of the road over roll back rate yeah over the roll um now just I'll just have to Divi divide that I didn't have that um the uh middle of the road combined uh 3.49 somebody have a calculator I use my phone 34941 just divide that by 33679 does somebody have I could use my phone if you want I'm I like the idea of you using yours I'll use my phone and you'll notice when Joey was me me I have him bring a regular calculator with him for that meeting yeah I got it 3 75 that's the increase over the that's over roll back 3.75 yeah okay so the proposed was an roughly 9% increase the middle of the road is 3.75% increase yeah based on what you decided you know with the combined compared to the roll back okay thank you and so that's good Revenue going to be as a percentage I know that might be a little bit more difficult but is it like 6.8 million which I think 10% yeah come from the 71 and if you go down 250k about 68 okay so when we go um the last thing I want to say is today when we see that 7.1 million and you go back to 167 just before I had the opportunity to serve we were at 3.5 5 million we have doubled 1 2 three four five six seven eight years and less than than 10 years or I mean double twice the amount of money and I know things have got more expensive but my hope is that we can we can lower taxes I I I set out to do my best to figure out a way to help the citizens receive the same or better level of service for less money that's the challenge that's the burden I don't think citizens would be impressed if you know so we just increased a bunch of spending but we fixed problems well that that tends to catch up I think um we can do it uh if if if roll back is just about $500,000 on the general en and I know there's more I think we can we can do that we can find that and I understand that today's vote we can go down um I'm just hoping we can see a way to cut 500,000 to at least agree to roll back rate and the only thing about that is as we move ahead with projects and like Miss Raymond said you know what's on the cutting block for the 500,000 Oak Lane again you know I mean 500,000 is a lot um I think if we you know dug in we could probably find it but I don't want that to be the first option because we need to finish things we've started long time ago and um oaklan has been pushed back and pushed back and pushed back um so that's my only thing with you know that's why I thought let's go with middle of the road we can always go down um you know nobody wants to see a tax increase especially now people's house insurance are going up and expenses are just crazy so if we could not have a a 7% uh raise in taxes um that's what I was looking at but I you know I cannot see us kicking the can down the road again with Oak Lane so you know I just we would have to dig in and see where we could find it you know I think Oakland was an example but I am with you on finishing Oak Lane I mean if the justification uh is you know first in first out that one certainly qualifies I know that some of those impact fees on some of those other projects sort of you allocate it to those but yeah those are my comments $7.1 million I think I definitely like middle of the road more than than the proposed um I I don't view this as you know that we're having to reduce uh salaries or anything like that I think we need to get oan done I think we need to continue to to try to bring on the best Workforce we possibly can but there's other areas in there Oakland can get I think finished at least funded uh what we have control over and I'd like to see us do our best to try and and um and get that get it uh to the roll back rate and I really appreciate council member Willis's question and I think we about grants because that's you know that sort of changes the conversation um is as a percentage of the total budget lot of it's uh Grant funded um and it complicates it too because you you know you might want to cut a project and well that one's Grant funded we've been there and done that in the past but those are my thoughts um I really don't want to support any increase I've been I've tried to stay on consistent with this every year and it has been we've increased quite a bit uh if you add all that up since like I said 35 million to 7 million today or 6.8 as proposed um but I'm looking forward to the second chance getting in talking through more with the workshop figuring out a way to get Oak Lane done overcome whatever the concerns are and I'm really um I'm hopeful we can figure out a way to make it work so that's all I have to say for now council member Davis I'm I'm against roll back because again I think we do need to get things done and we have to consider what that's going to do to the city in the future you know may be good now but how is it going to affect the city in the future so I'm for going for a higher number now not meaning we have to stick to that number but we have so much more information we need to get before we can make a a legitimate a decision on this so I'm still I'm for the higher number and I will not go for roll back thank you Mr Mayor yes council member Willis I wanted to ask John do you know what the percentage of U assessed value is related to our businesses in Cape canaval the last time I looked on the split I been I believe when I asked V County I think I think they gave me a report on that I want to say 19% 71 and I you know I'll have to I could ask The Bard property appraiser but they did send me a report because I think you asked me that question before like months ago and they sent me a report and I think it showed that the business you know what made up the business and whatever is this was 19% and then the rest was coming from residence or you know what have you so of the assessed value yeah of the assessed value so let me send a message tomorrow and see what the update is from them and what the percentage is okay thank you mayor I would like also I know we discussed it earlier but what what uh council member uh Jackson said about the grants that we've applied for last year and what how much of that we actually got um on the grants yeah I know that was part of our last discussion right yeah I could get with staff and we could see what grants we went for which ones were received and uh you know which ones we appli to anything this year M and you know Oak Lane I don't know you know Lexi would know but could Oak Lane be in the complete Street grant program I mean it's not a complete Street right now so I mean is that something we could get grants for on Oak Lane I mean we don't have to answer that now but I'm just saying counc will will find out more information on oaklane and I think maybe at the next meeting or whatever uh Tim could shed some light on that because um you know they are going out for bids and what have you and everything is getting much more expensive and the longer we wait the higher these bids are I so um I'll leave it at that for now I don't want to steal Tim's tunder Tundra herec member I'm actually in favor of of the roll back rate however I know tonight we need to probably go middle of the road and look at what we can prioritize I'm definitely in favor of prioritizing anything with infrastructure it's going to give us the biggest bang on our buck for um eliminating storm water now not 10 years from now when we complete a project I think people are if I were in our citizenship on those streets that flood I would be very tired of that situation at this point so I think that there needs to be some prioritization on things and I'm not saying you know don't do things I'm saying look at what we do based on what we want to do with the tax rate and then decide how we need to trim for example with your comment on oaklane I don't think that should be put off there's flooding up there too okay so we need to be cognizant of would we want the water tapping on our doors just like the thurm street projects is important to the area over by manate Park we have to look at what we want to do as a council that will impact the fastest impact we have on flooding and storm Waters as well as getting those projects started so we can get them completed that are going to make an impact so that's where I stand stand on that thank you will it's my understanding that the Oak Lane going out to bid is the second time around correct which so right now we don't know what that's going to cost we don't we don't know what that impact is going to be actually correct am I Am I Wrong well that's correct that's correct we don't know and um if we put in the budget that it's x amount of dollars and I think we Tim is is Tim Tim could come up and tell you he did go out for a bid and uh you know the bid is the bid is to me is astounding maybe I prompted his Thunder I don't know but no I don't want to steal his Thunder but I could be as Lightning go ahead all right so the the first time we went out to bid the first time I went out to bid for this project uh we were under the assumption that it was going to be under an $800,000 budget uh with that being said I had a Engineers estimate cost of about $655,000 that we were going by um when I received the one and only bid uh it was for $1.5 million uh so with that being said I went back to the engineer and I said will you do me a favor and run those numbers again because we are way off here something's wrong uh when they ran the numbers they run the fdot numbers of how much it would cost doe a regular Road and came up with $999,900 I'm just going to say a million uh so yes this is the second time that is out to to bid and uh I really don't know what we're going to get back and what is the due date for this second bidding it is August the 8th we'll no before the September budget hearings mayor that point being I think we need to be cautious on where we want to go with our our rate here if that is what we're wanting to do because if if we go back if we go to roll back which you know we could but uh if we were to go to roll back and it comes in at 1.4 million how are we going to get there and you know that makes you think too about the presidential streets the amount that's budgeted for that and the real amount when we you know that's going to be I mean what they want to do with the presidential streets compared to Oak Lane is a big difference and you know and yes we're impacting the CRA there so which is part of what oaklane would be paid for with so okay city manager anything you want to chime in with what no sir I'm glad I'm not in your seat right now okay any other comments at this time I just I believe I'm optimistic uh and I think there is enough at rollback rate to do everything we want to do um what happens when things come under budget they do here in the city we can talk about that too now I would agree that especially we think about those bigger projects with with uh capital projects that is not the trend right but there's other there's more than the CIP there's the operating budget there's line items and when we go through as council member Jackson was saying about prioritizing I can't see o glan not being at the top I really can't so if we're really put and and the flooding portion of the presidential streets is I think where we're all interested and the storm water side and I think um yeah that's it we can move on we're going to get another shot at this I don't want to support even middle of the road I'm very encouraged about 6 uh3 65 billion dollar being a million dollars more than the 2223 now we're going million and a half more and that to me is uh it's not necessary and I think the citizens would really appreciate it but this is not final vote this is first um I'd like to call a question okay we got a motion second we have a motion decler council member Davis four council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison against council member Willis four motion passes four to one I look forward to getting back in front of us on that and then the next Workshop we can dig in and um thank you John Tim Joey everyone who has been involved in this um and again I really appreciate those calculations you did in the budget very very helpful thank you okay thank you Council we are now able to move on to the next uh public hearing item number five ordinance number 17 2024 amending chapter 82 buildings and building regulations to adopt a local administrative Amendment to the Florida building code to add a new city code section 8249 requiring a building permit for roof codings regulated under the Florida building code with this this is a public hearing item City manager um and I our City attorney I guess would be okay reading it for us sure ordinance 17- 2024 an ordinance of the city council of the city Cape canabo bvar County Florida amending chapter 82 buildings and building regulations to adopt the local administrative Amendment to the Florida building code to add a new city code section 82- 149 requiring a building permit for roof codings regulated under the Florida building code providing for repeal of Prior inconsistent or ordinances and resolutions incorporation into the code severability and an effective date this is first reading also a public hearing item this is an issue that the city council discussed um previously and um gave some direction to um have staff look into it um this ordinance was created based on that discussion and presented to the Planning and Zoning Board Planning and Zoning Board recommended um approval uh essentially this or um if it passed would require a building permit um for purposes of roof codings that are regulated under the floorida building Cod um currently roof coatings do not require a building permit under the floor a building code um this local Amendment would require such permit and I think the council based on previous discussions is aware of why the the city's even considering this um and i' be happy to answer any questions you have thank you City attorney any questions for our City attorney Council this is the public hearing item if anyone would like to speak on this item uh please come forward we're on item number five ordinance number 17 2024 amending chapter 82 buildings and building regulations and those of you who are participating online please raise your hand if you would like to speak during the item we'll make sure you're heard I don't see anyone who intends to speak online or here and double cheing my cards I don't have any we'll go ahead and close public hearing item bring it back to the council May yes council member Davis I don't have any issue with this um but one thing that I would like to ask is that we do a reevaluation annually just to see if in fact it is helping with the insurance and that and just to kind of keep track of what's going on thank you very much Mr Mayor yes council member Willis do we have any idea what cost of the permit is going to be yes one of you asked me about that and we pulled it up on the computer was it was it $75 it was based on the size of the building or the valuation yes and so if it was a condo complex which this was initially discussed in regard to some condo complexes that were having problems with insurance um on and increasing because they recoded roofs and had and had no permit to prove it so when you look at the the cost if you're looking at a condo complex it's going to be higher versus if I did my home it would be much lower and it's literally listed in our code and the building code let me see if I can't get it quickly I'm looking for it too um the minimum permit fee is $75 I believe but in the case of council member Jackson's that's not going to apply because that's a much larger project so the the code the schedule of fees is in the code and it specifies based on the valuation of the work that's being done that determines what tier you're in um for that permit fee so I'm I'm looking for that Sir Mr Mayor a follow on question to that is is there any way that we can quantify the effect by when someone applies for a permit that they report to us if there is any insurance uh or property insurance savings based upon that if if their property insurance will decrease for having done this if we really I mean do we want to pay our staff to keep up with that type of thing versus when the person when the person comes in and gets the permit they just agree to let us know what that is otherwise how are we going to know if it's being effective I mean we we can't go out and track everyone's property insurance they have to provide us with that information so we need to ask for it Mary I think the way the best way to handle that would be um in bsna when a when a contractor applies for such a permit we will have contact information for that contractor so we can go back at say at the period of of a year and contact count contact all the applicants for roof coding permits and ask them to ask them to reply did this result in any positive change for you um it could it can't be mandated I think is is one of the points but we can ask for it well because if it's if it's not having the positive effect on insurance then why charge them a permit fee that's my point yeah maybe we could say instead well I think we need to have the owner of the property report to us if they would if they were receiving any benefit from having obtained a permit to do the roof coding yeah I think there's two things one is everything we're talking about is by permitting it will hopefully result in uh decreasing Insurance to be verified as you're talking about on annual I think that could be added in as our city manager said but the second part I don't know a lot there is an inspection right that I think the quality of the work that should be done did they put the let it cure properly all the things that go into uh that work uh I think is maybe a secondary indirect benefit well yes it would be a benefit from the permit that you get you're ensuring better quality of the application I guess um but to charge them uh you know we're we're basically talking about condominium complexes initially but there might be individuals and $75 might mean a little more to them so if you know of course having the permit means they're not applying it themselves and if it save them $75 on their insurance and theend well yeah you well I mean if it if it if it has that positive impact it would be nice to know if you're extending the life of your roof y okay you can pay $75 for a permit and hopefully that will work if you're doing recoding which may give you three more years on that $18,000 roof that you have to do so that's the thing as well as the fact that it's written it may we can't guarantee that it will this was never intended to guarantee that it will it's intended to give them teeth if they decide to go that route because there's no proof that they've done it now and we we have permitting for coating a pool why would a roof not be permitted this is what this initially but if we're going to keep up with if everyone got any benefit or not then you know what I'd say vote this down because that's not the intent of this in the first place the intent was to give them something to take to their insurance companies so that they may be able to get a reduction in coverage and we can't as a government entity control that we're just trying to help them and actually there was a builder that came in during planning and zoning and said that exact same thing he said we he asked for us to pass it in planning and zoning because we need to have something that has some teeth in it when they do roof recodings so it's it was never intended to be a guarantee that anyone's going to get an insurance break it's going to give them an opportunity to prove that they've done something to extend their roof and to prove per inspections that they have used the right materials for the the recoding and all of that based on Florida building codes thank you that's important I think it sounds like we're all okay with it it's more about should we continue should we charge anything for this service well I'm not refuting any of that I'm I think we need to do it um I think it would be helpful I know our condo association I've dealt with them and some of the issues we're having with all the regulations that are coming down which a condo association or homeowners association is going to U require that it' be done properly otherwise and the state would come down on a condo association with their regulations on how they're uh taking care of their facilities so you know it I wasn't trying to imply that you know we're trying to do something more but it would be nice to know if they are uh getting some benefit from this so I hope we do learn and totally understand uh I mean if people are applying and and getting it I think it it assumes it's working and maybe in a year we can learn and see how how it's going get some feedback from what we can get out of the sna and knowledge and are there is there anything else we need to address on this one city manager I just wanted to answer the question about the permit fee um for for example if it's a $20,000 roof coding job for a condo the permit fee would be $26 for an example okay so this has a public hearing item we brought it back here right we're yes good and uh if there's not anything else I'd like to make a motion that we pass ordinance number 17 2024 on the first reading I'll second got a motion by mayor Pro Tim Kellum a second by council member Willis any further discussion seeing none city clerk council member Davis for council member Jackson for mayor protim Callum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis for ordinance 17 2024 passes 5 on first reading thank you all look forward to seeing that hopefully help we are now on to uh the next public hearing item and the final one number six ordinance number 18 2024 Mr City attorney hey or ordinance 18-202 24 an ordinance of the city council of the city Cape canaro Florida amending section 110- 1996 of the city code regarding non-conforming lots of record and single family dwellings and duplexes providing for the repeal of Prior Inc consistent ordinances resolutions Incorporation into the code severability and an effective date this is first reading of this ordinance also a public hearing item was sure if planning was going to do a presentation on this but apparently not um so I can I can summarize that this is an issue that came up um with the city council some time ago regarding um lots that um were uh subdivided without f um complying with the city's subdivision regulations and um the issues that may result from from that um so we were asked to look into this and evaluate it this proposed ordinance stub tales off of an existing section of the code 110-1 196 regarding non-conforming lots of record and that section generally provides that single family dwellings and duplexes are pered on single family dwelling or or um on Lots um um if if it's a single lot of record um single lot of record is a crucial definition under the code a single lot of record is one that is um a lot that is created and um is recorded in the in the clerk of the court office but most importantly has received the city approval um the the issue that the council wanted uh to address were those instances where Lots were subdivided and without the city's approval and um a single family uh dwelling in duplex has been constructed um on those particular Lots so this this ordinance is not intended um and it explicitly States it does not address vacant Parcels of land this ordinance address addresses those Parcels of land with an existing single family dwelling or duplex um currently constructed on it um and that has been issued a certificate of occupance by occupancy by the city or the county um so the that's that's the pro those are the properties that are affected and then this ordinance would allow um would actually deem those particular parcels um lots of single lots of record um for purposes of uh future development permits and that's the important part of this ordinance is that those those lots that currently are not single um lots of record although they have a house in duplex they are not technically under the code eligible for development permits not withstanding the fact that you know there are there are structures and homes that are built on those Parcels so um this ordinance if it passed would would allow those Property Owners with existing single family dwellings and duplexes on on those lots to actually pull permits and um make modifications um to to those structures and and pull various permits that that may come up just just like any other lot of record um in in addition uh there was an issue that came up at the Planning and Zoning Board regarding um non-conforming single family homes and uh the ability to actually construct a second floor on those single family homes there's um uh the situation for that particular property owner if I remember correctly is um they would like to have a second story but the one of one of the side walls is in currently um in the setback area um this this ordinance would allow a second story of habitable space to be um constructed um within the existing building footprint um not withstanding the fact that um you know there that the home is currently um partially within one of the setbacks so I mean I I know there's public comment on this and the maybe some for and against or totally against this ordinance but uh be happy to answer any questions at this time thank you very much City attorney we will go to the public I got a couple cards Council any technical questions or anything specific to our City attorney or city staff before we go public awesome public hearing item if you did not fill out a card that's okay you don't I don't think need to for public hearing items we appreciate it for the minutes I stand corrected so I do got two cards for item number six thank you very much first one is uh Michael De Christopher thank you thank you Mr de Christopher yes my name is Michael De Christopher I reside at 1765 rochell Parkway in Meritt Island and I own property uh in Cape canaval Beach Gardens unit 2 um mayor Morrison and the city council members uh try to stay within 3 minutes uh on April 3rd 1979 at a regular city council meeting ordinance 379 amended section 63301 zoning District classification R2 to R1 in Cape canaval Beach Gardens unit 2 included in that amended ordinance were lots owned by Mr pinak of which he objected to the down zoning of his property in fact there were several property owners that also objected Mr pinc stated he would like to take the matter to court if his properties were down zoned due to due to the unconstitutionality of the rezoning Mr pinc and other property owners that objected uh never pursued a challenge in the courts at the time Attorney Richard Scott advised councel that there was a 5050 chance that the rezoning was illegal this action forced many of the property owners today to illegally subdivis their Lots so it has been long established in Florida that zoning regulation should not be altered to the detriment of property owners unless the alteration bear some substantial relationship to health welfare or safety of the public at that time in 1979 the reason that the city council down Zone the properties was because they felt there was a lack of R1 zoning in the city this reasoning is far from Health welfare and safety of the public Mr pinak had had seek had not seek an appeal excuse me my statement is wrong here had not seek an appeal to the ordinance 379 if he had did it would be invalid today with a better than 50/50 chance in my opinion and many of the Lots would have remained with an R2 zoning designation I have attached a recent case in new serona beach that cites much case law from Mr gargany and Council to consider if a vacant property owner like myself who is not afforded the same development rights to their property decides to challenge the approval of ordinance 18-202 as written on February 16 2021 city council had before them ordinance 11-202 prepared by Mr David dicki for the council to consider adopting the council failed to take up the matter ordinance 11-202 would have provided to all Property Owners Equitable relief of all illegal subdivisions whether vacant or not now today the council is considering this ordinance 18-202 24 that would only pertain to lots that have already been developed and this ordinance does not provide Equitable relief to all the property owns that never got to build on their vacant land for one reason or another this ordinance ordinance was also in direct response to 33 property owners that I had filed code violations against that had built on lots that were illegal legally subdivided thank you thank you okay the next card I have is U Mr Pat Campbell that's it and if you are listening online and would like to speak please raise your hand when finished here we'll make sure you have a chance Mr Campbell Patrick Campbell 307 surf Drive Cape canaval I submitted for the record uh to each of you um the specifics of my objection to the to processing this ordinance uh including my rationale to do so so I won't um I won't attempt to go through it all you have it I would request that that that submitt to the city be included in the minutes so others can see what I wrote I um I will summarize briefly that what I'm asking you to do I believe the ordinances need to be looked at I believe there needs to be some change in the ordinances not just this one um but in the case of this one because it touches so many citizens in Cape Canaveral and lacks any specificity about what you're talking about in the ordinance who it is and what properties that this would be better served to the citizens if you established a um a workshop or a series of workshops to discuss this with special notice to the people that actually own the properties that are affected so they know what's going on um I can tell you that you know Mr Christopher brought up the properties that he claims were done legally I looked into that um as I said in my objection the city really hasn't done anything with those objections and my neighbors don't did not until I pointed it out didn't even know there was a code violation filed on their property so Citizens need to be made aware of this it's affecting the citizens quite frankly maybe some people don't want a two-story house next to them you know and and they're not going to be afforded the opportunity to even hear that it's happening so I urge you to do a workshop or serious workshops make special notification to the people that actually are going to be affected by this thank you thank you if you intended to speak uh that's all the cards I have now please raise your hand or come forward on item number six thank you would you Pam you were raising your hand did you intend to speak for this item not for I think I have you for number eight okay okay thank you just want to make sure and uh hands online I don't see any hands raised and with that we'll bring it back to the council close public comment all right Council back to us so uh do we have knowledge of is this going to impact a uh basically it's clarified that that nothing would vacant land it doesn't it's a single family and duplex only way as I correct that's been confirmed and um connecting it to uh is this a a widespread problem or do we have I any examples or circumstances of of where this is needed um or where it would help because I think Mr Campbell's comments on workshops we talked about that is is I guess more than the workshop is the desire to to learn about uh public opinion of it and I know we've been here a few times um and so I guess I'm trying to understand and how this are there properties that we can use as an example that are in a circumstance that would be relieved and maybe before that the simple question would be what would someone do today if this does not pass if they had to find a path to accomplish what they wanted is there would the variance process allow that it's a question for our City attorney is there a path through variances or other ways where they could accomplish so um there's there's a couple of things going on on in this ordinance um there are lots in the city where there are existing single family homes and duplexes where there's no record of the city council approving the Lots on which those structures have been built um they were subdivided but there's no record of city city approval so with respect to those that class of lots because they were not properly they didn't properly get subdivided and approved by the city and accordance with chapter of currently chapter 98 subdivision regulations m not eligible for a development permit so that would include a variance request um technically a building permit to modify you know structure technically they're not recognize developable Lots that's that category of um of lots there staff has not created an inventory of every illegally subdivided lot in the city um but the staff is aware and of of a certain number of them Mr the Christopher pointed out some time ago about 32 of them um there there there are likely others um but staff hasn't gone and examined every single lot in the city to determine whether or not those lots were created with city council approval that would be pretty pretty much a Yan's task for staff to uh to have to have to have to do so um with respect to the fact that this just doesn't apply to vacant property this this ordinance is intended to address existing single family homes and duplexes on these types of lots that's the primary focus of this limited ordinance to address this specific problem for those for those homeowners so it's not intended to address vacant properties because there are no single family homes or duplexes built on those vacant Lots right so this ordinance isn't directed or aimed at vacant Lots so I think I answered part of your question Maybe not maybe not you probably have others but um yeah you answered I think that uh variance requests would have to be made if you took one of these Lots they building permit which I think they would probably need that anyways but there is a path of I think it councils on a Case by casee basis and Boards the just the whole variance process process where this gives a by right they would just come in and get a building permit opposed to having to go through the variance process it would make would make those lots that weren't lawfully subdivided with single family homes and duplexes that this this ordinance would then tell the city staff to treat them just like any other lot of record that was approved by the city council so whether or not they would um have to get variances or whether they would be authorized for a building permit for some something they want to do on their property they would have to comply with the code just like anybody else this this ordinance is just giving those lots the benefit of being called a lot of Records so they can come in and and actually be considered for a permit that they may need one hypothetical that I'm aware aare of is the person that actually showed up at the planning and zoning board meeting I don't think he's here tonight no that that person had come into this has an existing single family home um would like to construct a u a a second floor um the code I don't think generally prohibits a second floor they would just have to comply right with with the code his problem is that lot um is not a I don't think a lot of record in addition that single family home um is in um one of the side setbacks so um he's got a problem about even just pulling permits generally um you know if it was a lot of record and the house was built totally within the setback then they would apply for this a building per for a second story and just follow the normal course right but he's he's he's not he can't even get in the door on his on his you know desired request so um again just to emphasize it's the single family homes and duplexes that aren't on these approved lots that will then be treated like a lot of record so they can come in the door and ask for permits that's the major major impact of this ordinance if it was if it was passed now there's other impacts that were addressed because currently um you know the cities had a since the early 90s has had this section of the code in there to protect single family dwellings in duplexes on lots that don't comply with the lot dimensions in the code right this code said the existing code today says if you're on one of those lots that may not be wide enough may not be long enough this or this section of the code currently allows a single family home and duplex to be built on those lots even though they don't comply with the dimension requirements so long as they meet the yard Dimension requirements the yard requirements like open space setbacks right so if you have a vacant lot today that doesn't meet that was approved by the city that doesn't meet all the dimension requirements you can come in and build a single family home as long as you meet all the OD Dimension requirements such as such setbacks that's that's been in the code for 30 years this this ordinance also clarifies some aspects like what are yard Dimension requirements currently in the zoning code this kind of cross references what they are so that's another change that's being proposed when you see that parenthetical with like minimum lot coverage minimum living area or maximum height and setback those are the yard Dimension requirements I can tell you over the years staff has have has had some difficulty in trying to well what are yard Dimensions well you go into each zoning district and you see a subsection for in residential what yard dimensions are men minum lock lock coverage minimum living area maximum height setback we we've attemp we're attempting to clarify that in this ordinance as well in sub paragraph a and then we're and then we're adding that uh proposing to add based on the Planning and Zoning board's recommendation to address that Second Story issue all all all that language is in sub paragraph a um clar you know clarifying and adding and addressing second stories sub paragraph B in the ordinance is what I just previously mentioned um deeming uh those unapproved Lots with existing single family dwellings and duplexes a lot of record that's what sub paragraph B of this ordinance proposes to do and once they're deemed a single lot of record then those existing sing single family dwelling or duplexes can be maintained altered expanded or reconstructed on those developed lots of record in accordance with subparagraph a so in other words once those are deemed lots of record they get all of the same benefits that other lots of record have under subparagraph a regarding single family dwellings in duplexes that's how the ordinance is constructed so the example thank you very much and the example is helpful the gentleman um at the pnz board meeting who had in two issues I heard uh not on a lot of record and then uh setback violation he was currently the structure was in the setback so on one side yeah just one side lot got it everything else was the other three sides of the house are in compliance take the the ladder say it was built within the setbacks and it was just it sounds like it would still be a a legal plot issue correct and so if he wanted to build a second story he's within the setbacks but it's not a developable lot he cannot come in today and apply for a permit correct and make any alteration or any change technically no not saying that some of that stuff hasn't happened in the past for other Lots or that lot but technically no because it's not recognized as a developable lot for build for development permited purposes to clarify if I may mayor they could get permits for like re-roofs and kitchen models and stuff like that but to to change the outside footprint structure is what Anthony's talking about thank you for clarifying that I was assuming that permit meant frankly it I think I mean anything technically it does frankly technically if they get a r roof you're saying if you I mean that that that's the manager is is Raising you know a very practical issue that you know these people some of these homes of that we're aware of on the 32 Lots they they were constructed 40 years ago MH so you know the city probably has issued re-roofing permits and you know for the protection of their investment and structure and of these homeowners but like technically um they're not recognized as a developable lot because the city never never approved it City Council in particular so I mean it's a it's a technical issue and it it you know it's it's and also technically problematic from a from a permitting standpoint for these people this doesn't this is at large this would impact it doesn't necessarily require us to know what the properties are but if this property exists under this ordinance they would now be a lot where they could develop alter all correctly for today they might be making modifications but it it creates problems um once we go I gu ordinances passed not have any need to we will kind of know it on a I mean just at large with the magic wand uh I guess I I don't understand how many this would impact and and how today um ability for someone to improve their [Music] home is where does that get caught in our process today I mean I guess in that rbody is really subdivided a lot just like you explained and they want to get second store or a re-roof that's better whether it gets approved or not sounds like a separate conversation but where does it fall apart for us to say this isn't a legal developable lot early how are we catching this and and what would it is that make sense I'm trying to see where it breaks down because in an example say hey we got these projects and and unfortunately we can't help them are we in that circumstance today where somebody has pursued us and we're telling them we can't help them because of the code will not allow ending examples to that other than what I said about Second Story so um he had I think wanted to come in and try to get a variance but he's not a lowed of record so he's he's not even El eligible for varing its application after but that's the it breaks down in a lot of different places if you may recall mayor you know the city can't control the recordation of Deeds right somebody can carve up their land and go down to the clerk of the court and record a deed and the clerk of the court records the deed and VOA One Big Lot becomes 50 well the problem with that is is local governments cities regulate the subdivision of land okay so if somebody goes down to the clerk of the court and doesn't get you know and just records deeds and doesn't get approval regarding the division of the land of the division of the land well beware um because when you come to the city to ask for a permit they're going to say well you never complied with our subdivision regulations so we're not going to recognize your what you did with the clerk of the court they're not developable lots of record our city council has to approve the lot the subdivision of land so to the extent that the city um wants to control the subdivision of land and all cities and counties do um the consequences for not complying under the code says no permits will be issued unless your Lots approved by the C by the city council under chapter 98 so staff somebody comes in and wants to pull a building permit technically sometimes it's very obvious um that it's it's a it's an approved lot but sometimes uh staff looks at it and says we're not so sure they do a little digging and then they say well this lot was never approved chapter 98 says no permits will be issued on the development of that land if it's not doesn't comply with the subdivision regulations we the city controls so that's it breaks down at the clerk of the court because we can't the city well they may provide some notice you know beware you know you can record your deed but you know you got to go see the cities and counties for subdivision of land that's breakdown number one and breakdown number two is when these people come uh to the city looking for permits the staff finds out it could be years later that this ilal subdivision of land occurred and now these people could be are asking for permits and this staff's rightfully would say we don't recognize those lots that were created at the clerk of the court then it then then it becomes a problem does that I know does that make sense does that make sense I just I think on a Case by because the scenarios you got one that's in the setback develop you got one that there could be multiple I guess code violations and and issues right and for me um I think a case by case case basis the the variance process allows that however you said something and I'll stop at this point let other Council talk is that technically a variance would not be provided to a lot that was not properly subdivided yeah doesn't qualify as as a developable lot so why would the city entertain granting any permit when you don't when the city hasn't approved the lot so approving the lot on a Case by case basis is what I hope we can figure out a way to do a post to atge don't know the number [Music] and that could be a little unwieldy that so what what the what what this again what the ordinance is trying to deal with with is yes recognition that there are lots out there that have not been subdivided in accordance with the city's rules city has not approved however and this is the big however somewhere along the line many cases decades ago the city still issued building permits to construct that single family home or that duplex so you have visual structures evidence there today you may not recognize you may drive around town and may not recognize that the lot has not been approved but you certainly can recognize the structure and it's it's th that scenario that this ordinance is trying to say okay we've issued the building permit the structures there they're going to have per forting needs we're going to deem that lot with that structure on it a lot of record come in now you're eligible to apply for permits that's what it's trying to do to I'm not sure mayor frankly um and I recognize staff hasn't done an inventory of all these lots I'm not sure that it would be very practical um inefficient for the city to try to do this on a on a Case by casee BAS bis it might be uh very very uh challenging to do that not to say that could not be done but yeah I think quantity or the intents of of one but if it's you know if there's three a month absolutely that sounds really like a bad decision right uh but where I'm but if it's one or two or just say 10 I would rather tackle the 10 as they're needed in come up because to what you what you approve for one to me it's the 8 n and 10 those three might be a completely different circumstance um and I guess that's where I where I have a little bit of anxiety is that under the scenarios we're talking about it it seems to make sense but when we go ordinance at large I'm thinking about uh the other scenarios and just the overall demand for it um I can leave you with one other point that it hadn't made maybe you can you think about this when you kick the tires about the ordinance 110-1 196 currently does this on a global scale M there's no inventory of lots that do not comply with area width and depth MH okay but if somebody comes in the door today and that lot does doesn't it was approved by the city it doesn't comply with area width and depth um this 110-1 196 says you can build a single family home and a duplex on on that lot even though it doesn't comply um how many of how many of those are out there no idea it's not an inventory of those either but this ordinance recognizes if one of those lots comes in the door they can build a single family dwelling in duplex so long as they meet the yard Dimension requirements so it was kind of dovetailing this ordinance is dovetailing off of what already exists 110 196 or 96 196 1110 196 thank you yes I I'm hoping we can take if somebody needs help right now I'm willing to hear one two maybe three but if it got to a point I would say well we need to pass an ordinance this is becoming too much work right today I don't know of any any circumstances and so when we have to pass these at large and I hear citizens concerns being raised and I did receive the email there's some points in there uh and I don't want to get in the way of anyone trying to do something I do want to understand that circumstance but um I guess we'll have two readings at this so I'm I said I was finished I really am now I don't want to monopolize or but I just want to make one other point there's no process currently in the code whether to deal with is on a caseby Case basis or a global basis Mr Mayor if you want to address the issue there needs to be an ordinance of some kind okay all right hopefully that helps that does thank you uh council member Davis or U Jackson I think all of you I don't know if I council member Willis I think you want to speak too okay let's add a hypothetical okay suppose we had a Mexico City Beach incident hurricane yeah Michael and and it took out 40 homes MH those 40 Homes at varying times are going to come back in want to be rebuilt M they're going to have to wait on us to process all of this before they can ever go anywhere the last thing I want is for the citizens to have another hurdle to go over at the worst possible time and it be us that that was part of the reason for introducing this because there was revealed that there were some properties that would have problems that had problems with insurance with refinancing whatever that uh uh I was uncovering with the help of uh Dave Dicky and his staff but the thing is if we had a major incident of Fort Meers incident I don't want those people to be burdened with having to stand in front of us and wait on us to go however long it takes to get them to the point where they can rebuild that that was the initial thought process and then it got refined and the City attorney was able to write a very good ordinance in my opinion thank you I appreciate that that's helpful council member Jackson yes I just um had a question for a City attorney as far as um section 1102 200 versus the 110 uh 196 those things we already have in place compared to the new ordinance because these I'm sitting here looking at things and it's saying repeatedly that you can rebuild and so I'm just want to make sure I understand this make on the existing code so non-conforming lots record and any zoning District a single family uh duplex or dwelling or duplex is permitted council member Jackson you said 11200 I'm trying to actually follow 11200 is on special permits and 110 196 are non-conforming lots record okay um and so I'm trying to understand where we're where we have a gap in existing code so that I can compare it to what we're looking at in acting thank you right so non 110 which SEC one 110 D 110 196 yeah n see the that section says uh that that's the one that's being modified okay okay so it refers to lots of record so there's there's a definition of lots of record lot of record okay so that one's four lots of Records right okay but the lot of the lot of record term terminology is is used is used throughout um okay and then 11200 is for special permit which the undesirable as far as council member Willis was saying is them having to come before us um it looks like that addresses non-conforming uses of residential buildings for even oy right so that does address non-conforming uses and not to be to be deemed to be considered a non-conforming use the the the the use would have had to had complied with the city code it had to be at one point legally conforming and then due to code changes it has become non-conforming so that's what like non-conforming um uses and structures are so that would really be the circumstance that we're talking about tonight with the new ordinance correct because if they if the structures built and it has it was permitted and built on that non-conforming lot they could come in and get a special permit currently with our code but the lot wasn't the lot is not legal okay but this refer to nonconforming Lots which means that's an an illegal lot which talking about 196 110- 19620 see the city council desires to and this is under Section A the city council desires to establish specific standards for this category special permit in order to allow the continuation of some non-conforming uses of residential buildings for human occupancy not withstanding any con contrary provisions of the article or city code right at a duly duly held public hearing the city council May uh Grant a special permit to allow the non-conforming use of the residential building so um for human occupancy so and then it talks about uh special permit for that use so is this including building in any way because it's talking about reuse of buildings um and things like that does it apply here in any way no it it applies to non-conforming uses this we're not dealing with non-conforming uses regarding the the illegal Lots because the single family home and duplex first of all is is a conforming use in those zoning districts like where um you know like the 30 plus slots exist I mean they and the re the reason I'm asking this City attorney is we've talked in the past uh meetings about gray area in our code and this one looks really gray to me because it's talking about use versus building and non-conformities and then occupancy permit would Define the use is that correct because you could you could almost use this for the building of a non-conforming law that is talking about um there special and limited circumstances where it's you know not conforming so non-conforming use is the term it uses which is different than non conforming lot I'm taking it because why would a difference there's a difference between in a legal legally subdivided lot and a non-conforming lot okay what's the difference between a non-conforming lot and non-conforming use well a non-conforming lot let me see if I can think of an example of um running a business out of your house is a non non-conforming lot would be Avon by the Sea because Avon by the the part of Avon by the SE that's in the city my understanding is those are 50 foot Lots right but at the time they were approved by the county 50 foot Lots were allowed okay but they're not allowed today in Cape Canal so at one point they were legal now they're not that's a non-conforming lot in the legal sense an a legal subdivision of land doesn't even get into it's never con never conforming because it was never approved by this by by the subdivision Authority city or county right non-conforming use is a use that at one time the use of land at one time like single family that becomes illegal due to a change in code so then it's considered a non-conforming use because at one point it was lawful it's just not lawful today so it gets grandfathered in nobody's questioning at least on on the on the um the 30s something lots that were pointed out that that single family homes and duplexes are not allowed they are allowed they're conforming uses understood thank you hopefully that helps I mean it's it does because the way this is written I would say this was really it almost gets gray because it's right up there talking about those non-conformities um and then the other thing is I keep seeing all over this page highlighted is ordinance 17206 and I don't find that in here what is that one yeah 17-2 2006 by the looks of things is um was an ordinance that addressed uh the non-conform non-conformity section of this of the city code there were probably major changes done to this section of the of the code do we know what those are or how we can find those well you can pull the old ordinance 17-2 2006 okay it looks like it it was I'm looking at the editorial notes in the in mun code at it probably was a rewrite of the non-conformity section of the of the code so that's that was a change and then when did the next change happen to the code to the non-conformity section yes I'm not seeing any other change okay thank you uh Tim thank you uh this is I got we got the folder Mr Christopher has provided us he provided um his statement and also in the writing and I did catch Mr Christoper I think you pointed out the typo on uh had not seek I think that was your intent okay I made a note of that um and then we were provided in the other part of the folder um the 2021 reference ordinance 11 2021 and [Applause] the agenda summary cover I believe that was the entire item along with it looks like the 32 Lots uh that he put together uh single family lots that were legally split and never platted but were permitted to build and then some referencing some sections and then also a review of 110 and some conclusions um and then also there looks like some case law or some judgments oh the reference judgment uh case 2007 thank you very much for putting this together and providing uh the the resource or the references in the source Letterman very much appreciate it because I I think our city attorney's been trying to give some examples and and understanding this obviously we've been down this in the in the past and uh I really want to understand this and review it I know we're going to have a second reading uh the suggestion for a workshop and then the email I I think Mr Campbell said we got it I was actually trying to to pull it up it is a lengthy email and it looks like there's an attach well the attachments lengthy excuse me of combined correspondence I think council member will isue at reference um the the Community Development director's correspondence looks like going back to 20 uh 4 or yeah 2020 here I think I saw some earlier emails 2016 2014 I think we need to understand this this is just some weird questions floating around in my head my questions about pent up is are we are we getting in the way of anything right now if we if we did a workshop or tabled it or be I guess request some more things for the second raing um so we can either get this put behind us um I need to do some more due diligence I think on it for me um other than other than just that one person that showed up on the Planning and Zoning Board I mean maybe that's a question for the for the plan um I'm not sure if there's anything else in the hopper that that warrants well he was he on the I watched the meeting maybe I missed the front did he do public comments because I can go back and listen that would be helpful to understand what he was saying sure I think he may spoken later in the meeting so so I think it's toward the end when he spoke um but so you're saying do doing a workshop with the owners of these some of these Lots or I just want to make sure I understand well I'm sort of like you I'm trying to a workshop was suggested um and then the email uh that we got in addition to Mr Dr Christopher's packet um you know I I watched I think most of the pnz board meeting had a chance to hear a City attorney working through the the land issues so that was helpful but I missed that um I don't I'm not saying a workshop is maybe necessary was suggested if what are your thoughts on it maybe a pnz council Workshop or I don't want more meetings and more time uh but I do want to understand it so if I'm the only one that feels that way I can just be ready to to to move forward on second reading uh if we don't think it would be helpful um I think his intent Kyle was to maybe learn about what's out there these 32 lots are those reasonable places to start so as far as I know the Adam marar is his name the the resident who's wanting to build that second story he's he's the only person I'm aware of who who has actually come forward and and asked specifically about this um I mean we could do some maybe pnz meeting or something just kind of educational generally we just kind of have to see what the the shape of that would look like but we can maybe figure something out or I get together if it again I don't want to bog the council down if everyone's feeling good I'm happy to meet together and maybe just iron out some of these questions but if other council members feel the same and if it meant coming in 30 minutes before the next council meeting was taken to get it out because I think we need to move on thank you okay two readings ordinance obviously this the first one okay so because we're getting all this information I just want to go through it and if we want to take action tonight we can [Music] um not urgent I would like to to learn a little bit more Council I'm finished I'd like to be able to read through the material that we obtained from uh Mr de Christopher as well as Mr Campbell make sure I'd like to look at some of those ordinances and go through those so that I feel more comfortable with it that's my opinion I believe it's a worthy thing if we want people to be able to rebuild but I want to make sure we're not you know we've got our bases covered and understand it better well Mr Mayor i' I've been looking at at this since October and talking with the city attorney about it and Kyle and so I'm I'm ready to go but I've been in it a lot longer okay I and I appreciate you doing it um I'm just trying to get my head around this and understand it um so you know mayor you talked about is do we need to do this on a case-by casee basis or it seems to me that if we did this and pass this wouldn't that I mean there's 32 right off the bat right that that some of them some of those on the list some of the properties on the list are vacant maybe two two or three of them the rest of them are I understand is they all have sing single family homes or duplexes on them and my other question is the people that are have these Lots unless they sell their house or try to do something do they know that they are on unconforming Lots I mean if we had a workshop how would we invite them if they don't know you know yeah I don't know if it would yeah really come up necessarily unless like you said they're selling are trying to get a permit or something like that um yeah typically people are surprised to find to find that out and they wouldn't know unless they went for a permit whatever right and then they would find out and probably be very so would they find out if they lived in their house say the house is 40 years old they' lived there 20 and then they go to sell it would they find out then through the title search yeah it really not necessarily not not on the title search because it was deed I mean there's um a t the city the the title search would give a property owner a clue um if it's a if it's a recorded plat and if it's a recorded plat that will show up in a title search and when you look at your lot your lot is a complete lot then you would know that all right well it's an approved plat it's got the signature of the mayor on it right and you're getting you're you're getting this one lot and an approved plat that would show up in a title if if your title work shows that you have a part of a a lot of a platted lot you may want to do a little bit more due diligence to find out if whether or not what you're buying actually has been your lot has been approved by the city would be my suggestion but you would not know me a lot split if a lot split is approved by the city the city records a resolution so you you know that would show up in the title or a plat would show up in the title okay those are the two examples of uh what's helpful so this ordinance just grandfathers in all the non lots that aren't the right size that haven't been approved that haven't been approved they they have a single family home or a duplex and their lot hasn't been approved by the city this ordinance would approve it so if a hurricane came blew their house down technically they would not be on an approved lot if the ordinance passes then those single family homes at duplexes would be on an approved lot so God forbid right the house is destroyed they would come back in and seek a permit on an approved lot that's important that something like what councilman Willis said you know is but that's the red hearing that that we're talking about truth our former community development director stood in front of people we are not talking about scenarios where you could not if your phone was destroyed under a hurricane that where where this would be be an issue right and cuz people got really going back to I guess when we were doing that that's when it was brought up about fires and billing to rebuild and I I mean the room was packed and I think we have to ask ourselves and any other council member would we deny someone would they lose their ability to rebuild I don't I don't think maybe technically they would but if there was a hurricane uh circumstance like uh in Mexico Beach I mean we would have emergency ordinance Powers we can take Swift action what I don't want to I want to know when we pass an ordinance we have a good idea of who it circumstances and isolate it to one scenario like I can see the twostory building to set that but there's some anxiety around all the other scenarios that that I just wanted to Think Through maybe a meeting with with our City attorney is all that's needed um and Kyle and to talk through it but I've heard that example and technically I think Yes sounds like they couldn't rebuild but that hasn't you know we all talk about property rights have the right to have their lot because of something that they didn't do or happened years ago to have their property right for their property rights I mean I I would think that that depend yeah depends on what right but I mean what if they didn't know that because the it wasn't an approved lot what and this is I agree this is Modge Podge stuff all over the city that wasn't done right and now we have an opportunity to fix it yes for the property owner and their rights to their property that's where I do want to fix it I want I couldn't we identify them I mean I know you said that might be a daunting task or something but couldn't we if it's just limited to single family and I don't if that's ridiculous then just it would it would be it would be kind of just very meticulous take a really long time I don't know practically how it would be done if you go to the property of Appraiser's site and you just go through the city and look at them there's a lot of May I yeah I would just like because we do owe it to the property owner there is information that we need to find out but we do have a second reading so I'm going to make it a motion to approve the ordinance uh 18-202 24 it is a first reading and I'm going to make a motion to approve it I'll second got a motion by council member Davis second by mayor per Tim Kellum any further discussion on this um seeing none I want to learn a little bit more I'm not going to support it today I don't want to support something I don't fully understand and I do not yet and that is no fault to our city staff it's me taking the time to spend with them to understand and also to to bring in this this uh this new information um I'll call a question yeah just no I mean we've discussed it we've got a motion so I'll call the question yeah whenever you think discussion is done call the question requires 2/3 vote to actually stop the discussion so I was 20 seconds in your choice May I'm finished yes uh cityy clerk council member Davis for council member Jackson against mayor Pro Tim Callum for mayor Morrison against council member Willis four motion passes uh 3-2 on first reading thank you all thank you Kyle City attorney and uh we are now able to move move on to item number seven we are now out of the public hearing items uh I have a request to take a recess let's take five 10 minutes quick recess we'll come back uh let's do 650 sounds good 650 yeah 650 it's 8:3 oh 8 8:50 okay when it gets late I get 6508 smells like e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e she e e e all right we ready to go okay get started here in about 30 seconds let everyone get settled in um all righty ready to go it is 8:52 p.m. we are call the meeting back to order we can convening here for our regular city council meeting meeting we are on uh item number 7 uh first item for Action here uh resolution number 20242 amending the Define contribution retirement plan for the general employees of the City of Cape Canaveral City uh manager any yes sir thank you uh this has appeared several times out in front of the council uh last month when it appeared city council asked for some additional information regarding uh expanding the the um the list of cities that we surveyed to see what they're doing for their uh elective and non-elective uh plans and I would like to hand it over to Natalie our HR Director to discuss what her findings are for Council on this yep uh good evening mayor council members city manager um so after the last meeting we did go out we um pulled the the fiscal year state report from the Florida Department of Management Services to identify any municipalities that had a defined contribution and thankfully with the help of Joey over in the finance department we were able to um gather 25 municipalities to show you on attachment six there in your packet uh with that information it came out with a vesting schedule for average of 3.7 years and then the the average for the non-elective contribution that those cities were making was 99.1% uh that was the information we were able to gather by the deadline so um I did reach out to Jeremy button with um Florida Liga cities who is our financial adviser there and he did confirm again that the oneyear eligibility entry period is really high compared to our other municipalities around us and he also highlighted that the 7% was a little on the low scale so in addition on the budget aspect of it I just want Council to know on the budget that we've given you um it does contain the 9% that was talked about in a previous council meeting we did include the 9% in um our salary and compensation uh in that budget so that at least lets you know and and something I want to share with you there too is is that you know as we look at this and that 9% is being having a $92,000 you know um hit there uh we we have to remember too that there is an EV flow of vacancies hiring firing separations what have you which affects this so it won't always be like right there and the last part of it it is that u based on if we went to the um 6mon after probation vesting the effect is only about $3,300 based on what we gained from uh Jeremy at Florida uh fmit after the one time yeah after the one time so it's you know uh the numbers are in the in the budget and uh I just want to make you aware of that thank you city manager anything else on no sir uh this is really just to keep it in front of the council um you could take action on it tonight but you also don't have to it's a resolution so it only takes one reading um I think John when's the latest we would need to know it's really it's it would begin October mid October Natalie I think so we' have to have a decision by probably by the September council meeting the Absolut October 13th yeah yeah but but absolutely we would want to it's going to affect the over all budget and what what you have I I almost believe that Council would at least have to would want to approve this actually by the first Hearing in September because if you do it on the second hearing um not knowing what percentage you may approve if you approve any the budget book will have to be the budget will have to be changed within 3 days because I have reporting I got to do we have a workshop on August 6th then the next one is the September Workshop is the September is the first Hearing in September so consequently I mean the council meeting in the middle of on 20 August if that's the right date uh it could be a decision could be made there and then we have plenty of time to then make those adjustments before the first Hearing in but then we should we wouldn't want to wait till the regular September I would not I think that's um no that's going to change the budget just in the context of the budget you know as soon as you start doing that it start has a trickle effect it will change Pages appreciate so mayor I think be best practice if we had a decision made at least by August at the latest council meeting thank you my you you can hear you can hear my thoughts okay so um now and John help me understand from the chart with the cities that you provided because man these are all over the page on the percentage we have some that are at you know that are at 5% and others up to 13 and that kind of thing um and then some at zero vesting days you know on and on up to 10 so what do you know what is driving that is it city city size or um you know what is their budget and avalor in tax base I mean I don't know how to judge this I you know I truly don't I truly don't know the overall Dynamics only that I guess you have to look at that individual City uh the composition of of the employees fulltime employees and then also the thinking of the the council that approved that at the time they did so I think those factors other than that though I think that's a a very very difficult question because as we sit here in Cape Canaveral we're basically this hasn't been changed for what 23 years so as we sit here in Cape canav we're looking at um we have X amount of employees we're looking at the impact that happens if we go 9% we've determined that and and um council is in tune with with that so um yeah I mean it's really it's too yeah it's too hard to judge and I see like there's a huge difference between an Eatonville for example and a Marco Island well and if you notice Eatonville does have a notation next to it they are in the middle of discussions of changing that the definitely the vesting um they're voting right now for a 10-1 change so they're bringing theirs up to speed correct and same with Green Acres I highlighted that one because that 7 and a half% is also going up in their budget cycle but the felme was part of the original study so really we don't have any no well felir is very small they're they're probably the closest in size to us which was part of the original study that we had put out back in March thank you mhm I believe Eatonville is quite a bit smaller than Cape canaval oh yeah that's they are that's why the tenure vesting they've realized they need to yeah looking at population and everything else you know so now your your definition of a waiting period the ENT like the six right now ours is currently one year and we're proposing to move it to after 6 months after probation so most of these are on day one over half of them they enter on day one of employment okay question the uh City percentage in the table that we're looking at now that is that the combined percentage of the seven no that um non-el the city percent that is a non-elective so that's just non-elective mhm not the matching um a lot of them didn't have matching a lot of them yeah they just had the like I believe um yeah several of them did not even have the option for matching that was just a flat rate and today we're at the seven and the three seven and the three so this City puts out 10 if they put their three they we definitely put out the seven seven so if they put in three we put in three we're we we we're all in at 10 under that scenario it's ranges between seven I guess 8 9 10 m it would be kind of the range depending on how much they they contribute um so that yeah that that was assuming these well they don't do the match or I don't know if that was verified we have we can definitely say the seven um and then the the year the vesting is in years and you were saying that we are we're at one year now no we're at we're at 5 years now for the vesting where was I getting one year it starts at one year Well we start at one and then it goes up to 25 50 75 so 5 years of employment to get that's right so when we go back to the the other chart that we just had if um are they yes the the years here so what would we show for our year here if we were on this chart five only because that first year of employment is a waiting period technically but y it's it's 5 years in the in the actual plan that's adopted mhm yeah so we looked at them in that respect so under a scenario where somebody uh an employee puts in 3% the city is above the 99.1% average under the scenario where it's just the Citys side or that's every one of these that's all this is well this is this would be in comparison to our 7% okay yeah so this is definitely non-elective there's no this is none of these are a combined or um I believe we to we took out the comb because we didn't have answers from a lot of of all wasn't part of the original question that was being asked mhm so we put in the non-elected like you see like 8 to 10% it would depend on um their tier their level of how they're categorized on what the city contributed mhm okay and we want to take the fully 100% vested is I guess the way we at year five an employee is the average on BAS based on this chart is fully vested at 3.7 years that's what it came out to with 10 the Eatonville being on the high side and it looks like uh roughly 1 2 3 4 five six zeros in a and one at one year fully vested dorl um so zero means day one as you were saying earlier immediate upon higher fully vested correct okay and if somebody contributes today the 3% they're entitled to that portion if they don't go to the full five years is that correct they can they can start contributing when when they want but they would be entitled to the whatever they contributed if they were to leave in their 457 okay it's it's a different it's not part of the 401a what they contribute okay so that's not right the the other one kicks in at as it steps up through each year um okay council member Davis mayor protim Kum or any other council members any questions at this time satellite beaches is close to our mhm and they're five years at 5% do they have the contribution for the employees do they do 3% or uh we didn't get the matching information on yeah we could get that from fmit but we didn't reach out for that information initially for this study so are you are you asking for Less years for vesting to lower the vesting schedule and then as well as the entry from one year down to 6 months and the vesting for how long right away the original proposal that Melinda had drafted was for immediate vesting once they started and um John you said this the 9% is reflected in the budget we did put that we did put that in the budget and where would that be in under administrat well that would be that would be reflected and contained in the plus a $300 nonpr probational appreciation bonus plus 2% uh living cost of living increase and that is all figured in the budget this year too yes okay thank you council member Jackson any okay Council so we got a seven and a three today with a fiveyear stepped up we've got before us The Proposal with the cost differences going up to the 10 and the3 $992,000 more so we're paying $300,000 a year now each year in retirement plan cost and that is going to increase I think I guess it could could increase could decrease but that's roughly what we we average is 300,000 like if we were to go back from the original having a hard time seeing how that number thing's up that was with the original headcount that Melinda had provided but several of those staff members are no longer longer in the plan okay but if if that head count was we can see $95,000 more to go up to the 10 and the three and uh $90,000 for the 9 and the four so we got 300 today do we want to go up to 395 or 393 and and then a separate is how long they have to before they move in or uh become fully vested that one I I think we're competitive there maybe maybe within the years there's some things but I mean I I guess when we set it at five it's the goal to uh employees and new team members you know stay with the city longer retention right but if I understand is by I guess you would think that if you lower it right people are going to leave in year two and three however I'm not convinced that's what the data shows I don't know what the data shows to me is it true to say that no you attract higher better benefits because yeah and Jeremy did say that in the origin though it doesn't result in their you know because they would you know are people really staying around longer for that I think if you're in year four yeah one more year five but it's about getting people in the door and earlier having attractive benefits package from doesn't mean they're going to leave us in 5 years just okay no yeah no because comp I just add that that a person who compound likes to work at the city has this benefit well they're going to stay and then they'll be getting increases getting promoted so yeah that all goes hand inand with what you're putting in for your retirement you're uh yeah yeah that's a big part of it I mean you're going to if you like the city will stay I know back in March Melinda did provide information from Jeremy that stated that it was a common practice for the public sectors to reduce or remove the vesting period and that was part of the March packet mhm like mayor per Tim said satellit similar and so I guess I don't know I think they got 20,000 people maybe double but uh 5 years 5% we clearly the better option amongst them too right if you're choosing the bravard but I want to um try to isolate I guess it's it's three three decisions the match in or the non-elective amount the matching amount and the vesting period right those are the three big pieces of this resolution okay council do we want to uh could as the city manager was saying try to try to get up our arms completely around the budget and this was very helpful for me uh now having this new data and and being able to kind because I really didn't have a a clue um and and I wanted to see it to be competitive not to to be lower right it it it was genuinely I I do believe um there's there's some Merit in this and it makes sense so I will um listen to the council or work if we want to wait till August to make the one it's one rating decision after we get arms on the budget I certainly would feel more comfortable with that but if we want to push forward with something I'm willing to do that too it's um I'll make a motion that we wait till the August meeting to make a decision okay postpone till August I don't think we need any more data from them or do you have I don't think so I think we just need to I'll second it okay got a motion sense to work it in with the budget as we're looking at everything so we can make sure we have everything covered got a motion by mayor par jtim Kellum second by council member Jackson council member Willis Davis well I would have preferred we go with something like a N9 and three okay with a six-month probationary period uh that puts us average mhm on the non-elective um and we're basically holding serve on the 3% but we make it a little spicier with reducing the vesting period MH that does we we are moving 2% up um I I know we're already looking at a uh lower millage rate so if we go with the nine and three what kind of yes in there we have a nine and three oh okay so that's already right right so we didn't because yeah so take it down to their six-month probationary period right believe leave 100% at 6 month because like you Mr Mayor I think a lot of your talented people that is a that is an enticement particularly younger talented people us older people we we don't know how long we're going to be around you want to keep our younger Talent so what if we if I withdrew my motion and made a motion to approve the 9 and three with 6 months because we know what that is and we don't want to take money away from the employees in the budget we want to find some money somewhere else I think the nine and three I mean we're clear on I guess the difference it would be what I want to do is just earn it in the budget and see that we can like go to go into the budget to fight to make this happen Okay got and to try and prioritize so I'm fine with the nine and three at I'm pursuing it I think we're all on the same page we want to do what we can um gosh I think we could feel really confident about it in August but I think at this point we were we were wanting more information I think we've got enough and it would just be prudent to think take that step council member Willis suggest that nine and three we've heard it's in the budget so that makes it easy gu we got a motion in a second on the floor if you want to withdraw and do it you can I would feel more comfortable waiting but like I said if we want to do it we can um well I just think that know we got to take care of the employees that's important and at least we know the number we're working with so if I withdraw my motion and make a motion that we approve nine and three with 6 months is that what I need to do I feel better waiting um that that's me if you want to dis uh dismiss it I'll make a motion you know if you want to dismiss the one that you made I'll make a motion maybe I'll explain a little bit more of why so know I'm not trying to stand the way there's a lot of numbers that we heard that need to be changed but at this point I mean you've you've clearly stated how you feel we've kind of stated how we feel at this point I feel like you're trying to change our minds so I think we should just go with what either dismiss it or make the vote or whatever I fully accept a scenario where I do not think uh a nine in uh this increase would make sense I that make no mystery about that I don't want that to happen I want to pursue and make that happen but for me to say Oak Lane or at you know for at 350 for Oak Lane if we want want to use that one or just concession stand or whatever project are fixing the flooding issues and we're you know 40 50,000 off you know it's that's a tough decision we're going to have to make and and we take good care of our employees I think today and you pointed out okay I'll keep my motion then to make them make it on the eth I have a problem with that Mr Mayor because we've all discussed it and again you're a but you keep on going over and over that you disapprove disapprove disapprove I feel like you're changing trying to change our minds and I think you need to let us just make our our minds and decide what we want to do go for it we have a motion on the floor to move it to next week next budget meeting and we have a second so City so let's call the vote don't want to resend it you want to hold it yeah okay any further discussion C cler council member Davis against council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis against okay motion passes 3 to2 to postpone to August thank you very much Natalie John we can make this happen and thank you Todd for sir we'll bring it back in I'll for upfront talking about August being today would be great but that's helpful thank you and I don't think we need another presentation I think we'll be ready it really is down some budget yeah I okay great thank you all we are moving right along to item number eight uh which is a request for the removal of one Live Oak specimen tree at 211 Buchanan um hold on let me make sure yep okay so I'm going to make sure I don't have any cards I do have the card here from Miss Pam says picky I don't hi thank you for your patience we are uh we are I think best to to go ahead and have come forward and make your comments thank you thank you um as you know I'm here to request a permit to remove a tree um I filled out the application that an arborist was sent out to inspect the tree he stated that the tree was healthy but however there was no mention of all the damage that it's already done and and the Damage that it's going to do in the future I brought some pictures that you could look at um it shows exactly how close the tree is I mean we have it's on the side of the house and there's only 17t from the property line to the house the tree to the wall of the house is 4 foot from the tree from this massive tree to the house is 4T the branches are hanging over the tree we have Roots it's a it's a big oak tree so we have these huge roots and it's already tore up over half of the sprinkler system we've dug up and repaired but we still have we're trying to make this place look nice um but we have these big roots that are above ground and I have pictures here of some of the roots that are 17 ft from the trunk of the tree so you can kind of imagine what these roots are going to do to our foundation not to mention when we try to walk through the side of the property it's dangerous I mean I myself have tripped on them more than once already in two months um but the first picture like I said just shows how narrow the side yard is so basically we're just looking [Music] to make it look the best we can get rid of the tree somehow get someone to come in there and shave the roots down and try to get some s in there thank you is there anything else you'd like to share if needed I think we can come back back but I'm going to go ahead and talk with the city staff and if if you're I'm assuming you're going to wait through this and uh we might need to ask you something if I can get an answer that would be great I I do have a a tree guy waiting for the approval so we can get get on with it and we have other projects going to that I feel I mean it it's just asking for problems with these roots sticking them above the ground there's going to be someone's going to be hurt or there's going to be a lawsuit or something because um we do have I mean we have painters we've already had um a roof company come in to do repairs on the roof I mean there's just going to be a lot of people there walking on the side of the house thank you okay yes we are taking this issue up I think we'll be making some sort of decision tonight and so I appreciate you you sticking with us we'll talk through it thank you and how do you pronounce your last name chaplick chaplick yes thank you very much Miss chipi okay Council city manager I should have probably parked talked with you a little bit got public comments anything here I guess we can start from the top now that we've heard yeah I would just um call attention to the application where the applicant says that branches are above the roof large roots are tearing up sprinkler lines and sticking up above the ground level I have already tripped over several times in Tree close to sidewalk and Foundation um and the arborist went out and did his inspection and in his report on the comments he writes the tree I inspected today was a live oak at the time of my my inspection the tree was in good health with no hazards or structural damage to the house that I could see it has a dbh of 29 in this makes the tree a specimen tree and we'll need city council for approval for removal see attached pictures let me know if you have any questions so when this agenda item was created um if we could go to the cover sheet there Mia yeah um and council's probably familiar with this section 10241 uh that there's where the cursor is that talks about specimen trees um and of course it has to be preserved or relocated inside as greatest extent feasible notwithstanding that they can only be removed by extraordinary circumstances and only by final permit approved by the council um so you have to consider those extraordinary circumstances and and whether they or not they exist so to assist with that um we included 10240 which if you can scroll Mia um this this guides the city in determining the existence of extraordinary circumstances um so I I call your attention to number two which is necessity to remove trees which pose a clear and obvious safety hazard to buildings and other improvements on a lot or parcel of land ordinary small cracks are uplifts and pavement sidewalks and non-occupied structures that are typically caused by settling and small routs shall not be considered a safety hazard um and then number nine I'm not saying the other ones don't apply it's just that these ones I think are really worthy of council consideration number nine the extent of any damage or demonstrated hardship which would result to the applicant from a denial of the requested permit and number 10 finally the species and size of the trees proposed for removal as we know this is a specimen tree um staff did um recommend denying removal of the specimen tree because it didn't appear toose any safety hazards but um there the concern that I think I heard described to tonight was that it could uh cause additional concerns or safety hazards if I understand correctly but currently it's not other than currently well if you don't mind we'll work through I will give you a chance to speak there's folks listening from home and we want to make sure we're on the record thank you those are um I think all the relevant factors for Council to consider uh as produced in the report by the arborist and U applicable city code just to recap number 2 N and 10 yes sir so um yeah and also in 10241 if you could go up there Mia there are other criteria um it go the other way other direction the other direction 102 I saw that referenced oh at right at the top keep going keep going there you go so we we talked about A and B all also there's things that city council should consider when considering a final permit to remove uh whether the site design now this is for um an unbuilt property so uh that doesn't really apply number two is whether it's in the footprint of a proposed structure which this is not a proposed structure it's existing number three whether the location of the tree prevents access to the property from any publicly dedicated maintained roadway or whether the tree constitutes a haard to pedestrian or vehicle traffic I don't think that's the issue here and four whether the location the specimen tree interferes with or prevents the construction of utility Lin drainers facilities roadways and I don't believe that's the issue here either and the next page is number five uh whether the specimen tree is diseased weakened by age storm fire or other injury so as toose a danger to person's property s side improvements or other trees I don't believe that's a factor here either but those are the the relevant factors there okay so the 1 through five from section 10241 reference in the agenda summary from your understanding there there's no issues there these are the things we we have to consider when reviewing thank you very much from your review you don't see any issues at this time and I should say based on our arborist and in the team but when we go to section 10240 uh this guide uh to assist um item number two these and nine and 10 yes sir those were the three the three that I I believe are worth considering sure that's helpful and the arborist report is provided the application as well that um M filled out and that tree Hazard evaluation form yeah and that's where the com are in that form at the end okay second page of that form the first page I mean so let's go yes please council member Davis yes um I I I met with the arborist on this and I wanted to understand about how aggressive or not aggressive the root structures was and I don't mean to speak for the City Arborist he can certainly comment on this himself but what he explained to me was this particular species of trees has two types of roots that they're structural tap roots that are large and they go down and they seek the water and that's the main source of water but they go down and at an angle fairly deep and then there's a more surficial um um root and I forget the name of the root but it's typically smaller roots that gather the surface water um big the big point he was making there is the larger structural roots are lower and the roots that are on the top are are not as big I wish I could explain it like an arborist but that's my Layman understanding that's member Davis was that no I just wanted to say you council member no that's okay Jackson okay so and I'm looking at this so um Pam is the contractor right for the tree service maybe the tenant the owner is um Andre and Paul W troba Property Owners up the top and the in the application it shows uh Pamela and I can't say your last name I'm sorry Pamela as the tree contractor is that correct on her build no Miss Pam do you mind coming forward uh I wanted I want to make sure I understand because contractor is um Branch tree service is the the contractor that we have waiting to find out and who is what trophy that is my daughter and son-in-law and they live in Michigan so we okay so they're actually the property owners yes okay okay yeah we just actually take care of it for them and we're trying to get it fixed up for them no problem I just wanted to understand I thought are these the tree contractors thank you I appreciate that that was my question how old does the report state that the estimated age of the tree I don't believe it does sir an inch a year um 20 in is our minimum 24 first so it's 29 and it's 24 24 is the minimum and so if it is an inch a year I really don't know I'm just but just for the sake of this point five years ago five inches less just as an example who the heck knows I agree yeah but the point is at that time there would have been no permit needed it was under 24 is correct they could have just removed it um no the city code would have still applied a permit would have been required but it wouldn't have taken city council approval permit could have been but it didn't go it does not go to pnz or anything like that it's just Administrative Building official is criteria for the building official so if they applied for it four or five years ago and it wasn't a specimen tree the building official would have been required to review the tree probably have the same evaluation done by an Arbus and see whether or not one of the criteria applies that would authorize him to um allow the tree to be taken down thank you and so uh whatever the rate it grows uh there's a point to where your tree grows into some somebody else's hands or at least a different procedure right there's a building official um and then there's another layer as it gets bigger um and the arborist the city arur went out that's complimentary service I think we provide is that right um June is that a job description requirement uh that we have employe an arborist yes we don't Char a fee though I don't think for that okay would you mind coming back up I want to ask one more question have you had any other arborist look at it or no I have not okay is there anything and I saw you raise your hand um or interject was there anything that you wanted to address or contrast on the things we're looking at um well I know you may not think it's a problem right now but this tree is going to be a big problem I mean just what we had to repair from digging up the sprinkler system The Roots down there they were huge all all around the sprinkler system and like I said that tree is 4 foot from the foundation so if I'm seeing roots that are 17 ft from the tree imagine what's going to I mean they're going to be right in the foundation I would think mhm if they're if if they can travel right now I'm looking down the yard and 17 ft I'm looking at a root above ground and I'm just worried about like already they're it the roots are destroying like the curbing that's been poured and it's the trees what a foot or two from the sidewalk so when are we going to lose the sidewalk you know I mean honestly we would have probably never even bought the place had I known that the tree was going to be such an issue you know I mean I'm not crazy about paying all the money to have it taken down either I love trees as much as anyone else but I just don't want to your concern have the expense that this tree is going to cause us not to mention the fact that I don't know how we're ever going to have a grass there I mean we can't if you try to dig anywhere in that yard it's just nothing but roots that tree is even even on the other side of the fence I tried planning some things and just solid roots from this thing it's just a nightmare if this tree be today are you aware of any uh crack I think You' mentioned the sprinklers was a a cost sprinklers to go in and the Cur at one time they probably had a beautiful yard there they beautiful curbing Port um with some pretty designs and plants and so yeah there's places well even one of those pictures there you can see where the tree has pushed some of that curbing up but that's the curbing that's closest to the tree mhm but um that to me that and the fact that the limbs are hanging over the roof mhm and they're hanging over the neighbor shed and there are so many limbs that's already been taken off of this tree I mean if I don't get permission to cut it down I'm assuming I can have it trimmed and there's not going to be nothing left can we verify that right now are you okay with that because I think that's a really no I'm saying the ability to to prune I'm saying I don't think I have to get permission to prune it I don't either I just want to verify I'm just saying that it's already been pruned so many times how much more can you prune I can prune it until there's just a a trunk there but I understand the pruning are we correct to say that there's no permitting process to Pro specimen trees over 20 that's correct there's no permit requirement there there is a requirement about excessive pruning shall be prohibited um and it's defined in our code what excessive trimming is but that's not going to help the no root issue that's that's the big issue here I mean if it if I could just prune it or leave it like it is it'd be wonderful if if I wasn't dealing with the other issues today is the that it's six feet from that wall the photos the roots are 4T from the wall the root are 17 ft are they going under the sidewalk in the house they're going along this the on the side of the sidewalk and they're going along this side of the house okay and are they cracking anything other than I think you had mentioned the poured concrete perimeter the planer not yet but who knows how far they're going over down there you know this is just what I can see I'm going to ask a tougher question in the event it never happened nothing ever broke and it got big would I'm trying to understand all your your reasonings for the tree would that be an issue or is it more than just the concern which is a very understandable concern about cracking your foundation it's just that concern okay that's my biggest fear that and the fact that someone's going to get hurt MH and we certainly don't need a lawsuit I mean I don't know was there anything our city manager was making some statement ments about you know as he understood it based off that when you had raised your hand earlier was there anything there or did you already mention that I don't remember I felt that he had said something that you wanted to to make sure clarify or address just so make sure we're so the items I know the previous owner said that he had planted the tree and he was very proud of it but I mean he even knew that the tree is an issue now it's so big mhm they just I mean they didn't think when they planted it you you can't plant a tree like that in that small of a space well I don't know what they did under the ground for all I know is the reason it's running longwise in that open area because we learned a lot about trees is they they put down those deep barriers Hector found Foundation of your home and so they're running remember those we were talking about I don't know but but there are you know I guess subsurface concrete barriers to help guide and reroute the root systems is that code for these days are back when this was built don't even think it's code today it was a technology that we were the council was exploring to overcome another specimen tree that we were looking at that had um similar issues with the root system and the width of the canopy you're saying it's going over to the neighbor's yard it's over the neighbor's fence yes and I saw over your house canopies over the garage and over the house here also okay and if you look at it like I said it's been trimmed so many times can we get a zoomed out picture of it if there's one available I have printed they I went by there today and and snapped a quick photo I just remembered I could actually pull that the I'm trying to get an understanding of the canopy um I have some in the pictures but they're I think you gave some oh there's okay so this is it looks like it's about with the width of your fence it looks like it's printed right to the edge of your fence line um well see that one that's the full that's my phone but okay I I'm going to bring it back to the council thank you so much for coming up and down and helping Council um I think we got an email too from a resident Mr Brad PLL Brad um who is who's helped us uh in the city and work through some of the the tree challenges um I don't have that email in front of me but he had some questions I just wanted to remind the council is there anything on there um before we get to that um it says that you bought the house in May of this year and the tree was there then um obviously um and you said the own the previous owner planted it um I looked it up and it says that oak trees grow 2.5 cm a year so 29 in I don't know we could figure that out but um you know trees are very important in our city we've lost a lot of trees here for different reasons um and I don't really think I mean if it's that big and it hasn't gotten it the roots are probably already under your garage and under your house um I don't see I mean I hate to see us lose another tree this big I can see trimming it back again um but I just you know the tree was there when you bought the house and you I didn't realize um yeah okay 2.9 cm is 1.1 in a year year so we were pretty close little over a year so it's 29 in around so it's been there 30 years 25 years probably 25 M got 25.4 years rough math but um yeah thank you backyard um is this tree an evasive species disease are re Roots being invasive at any type of Plumbing sewer fresh water Etc are Roots being invasive to the founding of the uh Foundation excuse me of the building excluding sidewalks and driveway it's a tree inconvenience who has been at property longer the tree or the current owner what is the purpose reason for removal um if it's to be removed where will the other six trees be located to replace this tree and that's pretty much it thank you asking and the the hazard rating of eight I'm I'm having trouble finding the scale what an eight means where is it oh right there so the failure potential is one score to one low the size of Part is a three which is 18 to 30 and and the target rating four which is constant use so if a hazard rating is where does this translate into decisions I guess the lower score the better higher trying to understand how the I don't know for sure but it would appear to me that the lower the score the better so it looks like the higher highest score would be a four a four and a four would be a 12 and would be a one and one and one would be a three thank you he's okay so so a three would be uh the best and a 12 would be the worst so if we got a but you wouldn't be seeing it because a specimen tree is going to have large Parts you would never see a three right okay the concern about routs breaking the the driveway that's not according to our arborist he because the roots are he said there was no evidence of any structural damage to the house he didn't specifically talk about the the sidewalk but I believe um you said there was no damage to the sidewalk currently not yet no just the curving yeah what he explained was that the the heavy tap routes go down at an angle from the base of the tree and the lighter roots are more on the surface the smaller roots are on the surface thank you you look at the top of the page you're on mayor M it breaks it out up there m so uh s um exposed roots low mhm undermined Roots low um um restricted brot area low potential for root failure low and if the tree's been there for 25 years and it hasn't affected the sidewalk well I think we've got some really mature it is a Live Oak right yep Uh there's Big park or the parks we can think about our dog park and Friday Fest there are some really mature ones um in the event this tree does cause damage what they're concerned about what actions can they take damaged tree can be removed and for emergency conditions it can be removed okay actually the yard looks good along the back house has been there since 1984 there's probably that would know say law on this one Mr City attorney there was a change I remember there was maybe an unsubstantial change that happened anyways is there anything here on oh no single family home first it's limited to single family homes detached single detached single family home so that state law applies to detach s that is not my understanding it is not a detached single family home right it's a attached to another town home unit so the statutory preemption um does not does not apply and just a reminder that statutory preemption even if it if it did apply would require an arborist or a landscape architect to submit um have a report that the tree is hazardous using the uh best management practice guidelin thank you okay Council we we are uh we're at 9:54 p.m. these are always very difficult decisions uh for me at least uh what do we want to do I got one more question this evaluation form that was completed I don't know the arborist what's this um certification that it's the inst um to become an arborist our arborist is licensed under the FL I assume that number at the end of his name would be his Arbor FL 509a Certification Number Certification Number and he is the only thing I could think of is if if he did it like a just a preliminary review or this evaluation is not in depth uh if there's another level uh to overcome their concerns and to without talking to Tim or knowing anything about the Arbors that would be the only thing I would Reserve is that that if they went back out or another arst looked at it and could verify some things and some mitigation or whatever steps are necessary but if Tim you know went through it and did that level of in inspection I don't think that would be needed and you certainly could do uh pursue another arborist as well obviously we try to help the community with Tim he does a great job and and helps but I think that that area you can come forward I address at this point I I feel like I'm going to be spending enough money on the tree I mean I never dreamed that it would come to this uh we lived on Minuteman up until about four years ago and we had the same tree in our front yard it was beautiful but we had a big front yard MH and that tree actually it tore up the water line The Roots grew into our water line running to the road we still never took the tree out but it was an expense um and and I I guess my question is do I come here again when this tree tears up my waterline or I have to replace my sidewalk do I come here again and ask to have it cut down or what do I do at that point well I think if you came to us again unfortunately and you said it happened I think we would have a concern on the evaluation our Arbor has provided us because from our from what we're seeing here he's telling us based on the level of assessment that he performed I don't know again he's not telling you look at the roots there running along the side of the house he's not telling he didn't put anything in there about okay the roots about the damage to the curbing already um is it in this for photo bottom this oh yeah I said this one here at the bottom is that the one you're talking okay so that roof is running toward your neighbor's yard to the side out towards the road the back I guess the is in front Okay and is there anything growing between the tree trunk and where that root is because I normally they I my oak trees I had they didn't go out that far so I'm wondering what's growing this whether it could be something else that has a more shallow root system yes yep before we've always accepted his always accepted our the decision no doubt we need to make a decision on a minimum I think extending the times so let's if y'all want to go ahead and knock that out now I'll make a motion to extend 30 minutes got a motion by council member Jackson second by mayor protim Kellum to extend for 30 minutes discussion obviously don't have to stay that long but city clerk council member Davis for council member Jackson four mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison four council member Willis against okay uh we are council member Davis I agree I I think we are at the recommendation of City staff this assessment I do want to figure out a way to help overcome the property owner's concerns and if she is in fact experiencing and then and it's going under and those roots for whatever reason do come up right we don't want that to happen how can we just double verify that because I would fully support removing any tree that's going to especially of that size it's going to come and damage the foundation underneath someone's home pipes well I I mean in right here in the in his evaluation it says EXP those roots low it says um root um restricted root area low potential for root failure low I mean we have to go by what he's saying and um you know I think maybe down the road if it becomes a problem or if they want to get another arborist to bring it back to us but from this evaluation and what our arur is saying and what's in our code I would have to make a motion to deny the um removal of this tree second I got a motion by mayor par Tim Kellum a second by council member Davis to deny um any further discussion I I I would like to if you'd be willing come out and and the pictures are helpful but if I can come by and look and I know that would really be helpful and and see if we can't keep this at least in front of us to overcome the any issues we do love our trees in this city and um but we also try to honor and respect private property rights and that's this one's right on that line and so um that's all I have to say thank you very much for your time and patience appreciate it and you can just go through the gate and go I will uh try to get your I think I got your information I'll certainly touch base but thank you Council any further discussion on this one um mayor question um do you said go through the gate is this in the backyard on side it's on the side yard I just want to make sure want to make sure the pictures that we have are on the sidey yard okay thank you that's okay I just want to show you that that's standing in the Road Lincoln that's okay that's the one I thought it was too that's on the inside of the fence does that matter I I forgot there was a fence and a gate in front of this normally fences and gates are towards the back yard and I thought are we talking about the wrong tree here for a [Laughter] second okay no good point nothing else go ahead and call city clerk mayor can you send me that photo when you get yes okay and I'll also need the submitt photo if if the applicant doesn't want it back they got passed around can we hold you did have some notes in writing are you sure we can make copies okay thank you I think we all got them in different places over here but we'll start to move them and I'll email that uh shortly thank you thank you okay council member Davis council member Jackson for May call to clarify the motion was against deny to deny so we are voting sorry for denying I don't want a double negative motion let get messy okay thank you sorry I'll start over council member Davis for council member Jackson for mayor protim Kum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis four passes 5 again thank you all I will keep this uh in front of me and hopefully we'll talk soon thank you okay thank you Council we are now uh the item number nine we are at 10:05 p.m. we've got one two three four five items we have 25 minutes left that would be 5 minutes per item do we want to take a step back and look at this um certainly can tackle number nine next but I I think we need to either move through them quick or just making us aware that we let's take if we want we can take number nine on and then um I have a question about number nine is that something that has to be decided tonight do we have any time I know that by his contract yeah the contract specify shall be done in the months of between May in July every year don't have any I just I can't see doing this in five minutes can't hear you I she was asking about the time frame no I just didn't hear answer no she had mentioned that you know we have to I think you said do we have to do it tonight I you could just agree to move it to to August I just don't think I think this is a big decision and it has a lot to do with our budget as well and I don't think we can decide this in 5 minutes and we're trying to get through this thing I well I don't think it doesn't affect I mean he won't get the raise or no raise or whatever we decide until the next fiscal year done well it does but I mean I would like more time than five minutes or whatever and we have a lot of other agenda items we have to get through so could we just move it to the August meeting and decide on it then and make it why don't we move the other items to the August well or unless what the council determines necessary City attorney can correct me but the July we have the ability and he is recommending that in July we've evaluated if we want to do it in August is what you want Don said something that I didn't well I just wondered why we couldn't move the other items to July I mean to August actually one of mine is the action item I just think to be fair to Todd and to have a better discussion late for this kind of decision decision fatigue is a real thing after you make so many decisions it it at the end here it does get a little icy and this is a sensitive one um I will yield to this Council on this one Whatever the contract says it has to be done between May and July obviously it's I mean it's a contract so you can talk to the city manager whether or not there's some leeway to just move this given the late hour of tonight but that's between you and the manager to decide or if Council would like I can take my agenda items that are on this agenda and move them into a workshop or a special meeting to cover them that way in July because one of them I I'm specifically am wanting to cover it in July it has to do with budgeting is the reason if we do if we moved it I don't think it should be at the end of the agenda either I'd like to tackle it early and fresh um but it's not as much about we should have caught that front of this agenda that and I mean the truth is is all the items to to your point council member Jackson are important this one I don't think anyone's disagreeing is is arguably the most our City attorney is uh suggesting if we talk with our city manager um I think that would be good Mr city manager what if you I mean the evaluation discussion and and in August or I would even be open to find if there's another meeting if we want to put it on at a sooner date to get evaluations end of the deadline we've got one more evaluation and then valuation was never turned in that's why it's been put off and I don't think it's fair to Todd to keep putting this off and I you know I think we need to go forward I would like a reason why you did not meet the deadline and why you have not turn an evaluation I think it's rude to us and to the human resources and to the rest of the staff so I I deserve an answer and I want to know why you didn't turn it in okay thank you um I know it now well I'm sure you do that's fine I excuse me I don't go question for you our City attorney just recommended that we ask Todd I was following that procedure and our mayor protim said that and you interjected and said what you said I'm here to talk with with our city manager because all this is and if he feels the way you do he can tell us too okay so him I would like an answer that thank you for sharing with me what you would like and I'm happy to share with every Absolutely I'll give an answer but we got some order here I'm trying to get there as fast as I can without you're avoiding the question I would like that question answered or I will ask the city manager to that's not how this Council Works sorry the majority of this Council decides this Council you have been so demanding on this staff and given criticism to this staff for not getting stuff turned into you on a proper appropriate time I'm talking Filmore and Jackson but yet you don't show the same courtesy to them I want to know why y well I'm just trying to be respectful make sure she's heard I think I've heard enough You' made your point very clear and I'm not uh I don't think it's a good use of our time at 1012 right now to debate that city manager I think we would appreciate the time if July is important that's the deadline July 31st that's the real contractual deadline and it was was stated if you feel strongly that we need to do that in July I'm willing to today is the uh 16th so we're halfway if you want to meet before July to honor that I'm all about that I'm willing to do that in a standalone meeting in the middle of the day doesn't have to be if you want to meet at noon I don't think this needs to be think we need my thoughts I always support the majority will of my Council if the council wants to reschedule this to next month we can reschedule to next month thank you got a no I think we have a do we have a motion I make a motion that I second the motion got a motion by mayor per Tim Kellum a second by council member Jackson to postpone to August and make it the first item on the agenda yes please if reasonable and legal I mean if there's like a public hearing item or something obviously would that be okay with you I mean again whatever the council likes I I like it being where it's less crowded in the room to have the discussion but it's the council's call okay well we might okay we've gone later than 10:14 we've gone to 11 something tonight there's so it's not those were some pretty messy conversations too we had a motion in a second y we're discussing any other discussion on this item city clerk council member Davis against council member Jackson for mayor protim Kellum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis against passes three to two so I can answer we've business in front of us I will happily provide you an answer when we don't have four items on the agenda that we need to deal with at 10:15 at night and the day I demand answers out of you is the day you should tell me don't do that so I I I want to treat you the same so thank you I've communicated with our city manager as of yesterday and leading up to it and thank you all for your patience on the matter um um council member Jackson okay so we're at item number 10 we have 10 11 and 12 left number 10 is a discussion amending the city's public electric vehicle charging station fee and this is actually a Zach item y he yeah the depth perception is a little tricky yes and your feet seem far away I understand but I can't see they look very nice yeah thank you we've all come to a consensus the new glasses look nice thank you I'm glad that's reflected in the record so we got a discussion item here oh uh this is item number 10 amending the public EV charging station fee schedule to allow for overnight charging at the city hall and provide direction to staff regarding updating city code as appropriate to allow for overnight EV charging do we want to take that up tonight can we do something quick with that sure I could give you a brief synopsis it's up to you guys if you want to push it spend a couple minutes on it at least five minutes let's go I could do it in one minute okay that's even better the basis of it council is that right now I myself I know a few other council members have received inquiries from residents with electric vehicles asking the city to make them 24/7 in at least some locations because charging an EV usually happens overnight uh just kind of makes sense with the work schedule that someone has or their lives you come home that's where you charge it now do you has access to overnight charging for whatever reason um is currently not allowed in city parks to park overnight but that that is not applicable to City Hall it's where half of the charging stations are located anyways and it's actually where we see the most usage gotten uh nearly uh about 350 plugins individual plugins at City Hall so far uh which is pretty great so we wanted to see if it would be possible if you guys would be amable to upda in the fee schedule to out for overnight charging at City Hall it' be very easy to do that we've conferred with bcso and they're okay with doing it makes sense too in proximity to where they are located for security reasons um we did when we did the market study for the other uh cities that do it pretty much everybody does offer 247 charging um so we're kind of uh not being up to Snuff with compet being competitive with other markets um yeah yeah and it just be another way to capitalize the most on our investment and make some more Revenue that's all I got that Council really two things it sounds like yes the second schedule the second part would be if you're also amable would be to direct staff to update the city's code to allow for overnight charging at specific city parks um certain conditions to do it okay council member Jackson or anyone I would um when I started this we wanted to keep an eye on um how our charging program was going and I think we've got it it's winged right now so its wings are clipped so to speak because we haven't had the travel numbers in here and the numbers are really low so I think we need to encourage anything we can to bring up these revenues and Zach I'm not I'm going to go ahead and say what some of these are because it's in the report this at the back the agenda um so total since December is $2,567 charging revenue is $2,316 Idle fees are $251 and our total sessions are 818 and as uh Zach was saying City Hall has had a lot more activity than some of the other locations in the city I do know that some of the people that I've worked with and talked to unfortunately and this is something that happened after we got our chargers but unfortunately they're using the Tesla a fast charger down the road so we we need to do whatever we can to boost these up because we're not com we're not compe utilizing them the way that we would need to so um I support Zach's proposal to open up here at City Hall specifically because that's loow hanging fruit that we could do fairly quickly without having to um engage our parks our bcso to patrol the parks overnight but we've had good act some we've had more activity on these Chargers here at City Hall correct and we know that and we didn't know that before think about that we've got a lot of numbers now yeah we can play with it the reports are helpful because it'll help us to manage it exactly thank you Zach so the rates the the time of overnight specifically at City Hall seems like something you definitely want to do and then the as far as the rate the rates remain the same the thing that changes would be the idle fee I don't think it's fair to okay immediately start it overnight that would rack up some pretty serious cost by the time you woke up in the morning um that would might be a discouragement to use them so I suggest that we push the idle fee out or eliminate it entirely between the hours of 9:30 p.m. and 6:30 a.m. um just so that it's more you just get straight charged for the electricity instead of an idol fee and you can you can set it in that time period that's really cool that's correct yes and we did have early on when Zach and I started working on this one of our citizens that came to us then and said it's a hardship when I can't get back here because I've fallen asleep I'm getting up getting ready to work for work the next day by the time I've gone I've got idle fees that have racked up on her and she asked us literally in an email to modify that back then if you remember sa so that's something that could be helpful for boosting that up here since we've got bcso nearby and that could not having the idol fee could be offset by the longer charging period cuz you're you have no reason to use the vehicle you're sleeping so it'll stay there for a long time and get charged probably from a lower battery point too so they're getting more charged we get more Revenue but I think that we should push the discussion for whether we're going to open up the parks off to another month yes I agree just because that's going to take a lot more time to discuss but we're as long as my question was the safety and stuff but as long as you know okay that yeah and you could use this opportunity to see how City Hall does you know and then if the numbers are really good you know it's encouragement to open it up even further so could be almost seen as like a trial period Mr Mayor yes sir um well opening up Banana River Park and the C5 those are those are wide open areas Sheriff's Department already patrols through PDR we have we have residents who love to keep an eye on Banana River Park they're just looking for somebody to do something out there that they can see with their binoculars I you know but uh but um I think the those two parks would be fairly easy to to keep an eye on so I think it would be behoove us to open those two manate Park maybe not because it's pretty dark back there so MH it also has a gate yeah well don't know that it's closed very often yeah I'm not I'm unaware so City Hall I mean are we saying one two you're saying you you feel okay about manate opening up Banana River Park or Banana River I'm sorry and the C5 yes that's what I meant to say canaval city park or City Hall too yeah in City Hall yeah and you're I'm good with that adding those two to the City Hall absolutely I'm good with that council member Davis we need a motion or I think we got three locations after hours with eliminating the idle fee ultimately would require resolution change yeah this is written as it would be amended as a updated fee schedule resolution and we bring it back to you in August with the changes but the may require a a code change regarding overnight parking in the Parks that's correct so we would come back exclude EVS if you wanted it we would come back in August with a an ordinance to change the city code to allow for overnight parking at parks specifically Banana River and canabal city or for EV charging specifically for for EV charging where you have to be physically plugged in to not get ticketed be two readings yeah that would be two readings but there's some adjust ments that can be made I think to implement perhaps City Hall yeah that would immediately but not the parks because there's a overnight parking prohibition right in the Parks yeah so maybe we should separate city hall or whatever I think you have the will to do those maybe some push give the direction and then we have to just work on the paperwork and bring it back to you one question we overnight is there a there is is there a like how soon can someone actually Park and it's overnight like can you park at 5:00 p.m. and then leave it there until 7:00 in the morning or do you have to start at a certain point I would offer a suggestion there so the park rules are Dusk to Dawn um so any session started prior to dusk is okay as a regular daytime session but any session started at after Dusk and Before Dawn would have to comply with this yeah whatever the new regulation is and and that would also involve the idle fee so the idle fee is more strict for a daytime charging session starting before dawn dusk if we have a relax idle fee it would start for those sessions started after dusk yeah no no I'm we're um council member Willis talked about idle fees okay and we that's because we were considering having a relax Idol fee for overnight parking at parks so more time um a grace period a greater grace period to go get your car yes or eliminate it during that window either way I think my only concern would be is if we do an ordinance change two readings we want to maybe manate Park's the only one we can't get comfortable with but having as many of them as we can in one shot two readings get it done so if I could mayor I think there's consensus I'm trying be wary of the time too I think there's consensus to direct staff to go ahead and authorize immediately City Hall overnight parking um but we still have to consider that idle time fee the idle issue if there's going to be a relaxed idle that should apply in Parks as well as City Hall yeah I think they would replicate each other and that's part that would be a resolution for that so we could bring a resolution back um for City Hall and well we can we can do City Hall but we just don't want to do it until we have the resolution approved the idle fee technologically speaking it could be done right now but we didn't we want to adhere to the fee schedule so so I guess let me recap then we're looking at a resolution and an ordinance coming to council the resolution is for the idle fees M and the ordinance is for specified parking at uh city parks yep if that's consensus of council then I'm I'm all for proceed that way and can we add in what type of communication strategy to our residents we will have to get them aware of the fact that we've Z's already on that we'll have that in the item perfect thank you so this was a discussion item I think we have consensus at least for the resolution for the idol fee and the ordinance for the the parks over and overnight and we need anything else happy to take up a vote uh I don't know what what do what do we need direct I think you guys got it i' I've got the consensus thank you mayor anything else Council just to be sure council member Willis Idol fee you're okay with that okay all right so we are at uh the the 10 uh 29 uh we extended to 10:30 we just finished item number 10 uh guys we're going to have to extend or move to the next meeting or just don't take action and and I think they would be old business um if we're not going to extend I'm happy to extend I want to make a motion to extend just to wrap up I've got one I need action on the rest I can move but that way we can make a plan to move it to the next which one and how much time do you think you need um number 11 11 okay and this as what's the time um we're at 10:30 now so we need to extend for the oh I would yeah if we extend to 11 we've got it covered but hopefully it won't take that long to discuss this okay we got to do that by motion and I make a motion to extend to 11 um I'll guess I'll second got a motion by council member Jackson uh second by mayor protim to extend any further discussion to 11: p.m clarify seeing none city clerk council member Davis against council member Jackson for mayor PR Tim Kellum for mayor Morrison for council member Willis against okay agenda item 11 I'm going to go ahead and just jump in because everyone wants to get out of here understandably so um Tim would you come up please agenda item 11 in our last meeting we talked about looking at things that we could do immediately to eliminate storm water in the the presidential streets that are flooding and since then I met with Tim we made no action out of that last meeting although we discussed the possibility of many different Alternatives and since then I've met with Tim and Tim started uh uh providing me with some information as far as some things we could do in that area to get flood waters off the street such as um pervious carbs so carbs that drain things of this nature and so this item which is at the end and we have things that we added to this to show you but I know no one wants to go through it at 10:30 at night so I just need an action item for us to be able to look at this because if it's something that we can do that will give us um median impact on the flooding in the presidential streets I need an action item to take a look at it because we're at budget season and I need to include that in there so um I'm looking at needing council's boat for Tim to be able to provide us with some pricing and some different alternatives on things that could work on flooding Now versus when some of the presidential streets get finished or Civic Center because those are longer projects got it so this discussion is about city manager requesting the city manager to look into may excuse me point point of order and I don't and I might have missed this but I um extending the meeting past 10 10 p.m. required a super majority and I don't think you had a super we did not we just had a three2 you only had a three to two let's um sorry about that but I just picked up advise how we what we do well the meeting is technically adjourned under your rules because you didn't have a super majority for extension okay now I don't know if you want to reconsider that um or what but that that was that's your rule under uh 269 I mean the city get out of here City May extend the meeting by super majority of the city council present at the time of adjournment required by this section so uh I I can't even speak to your item at this point to honor that what our City attorney said so if there's no reconsideration I assume there's no reconsideration c meeting adjourned apparently yeah that we want to do it right okay motion to adjourn yep motion to adjourn thank you very much --------- and today is July 16th 2024 we are at 100 PK Avenue in Cape canaval Florida at the city hall council chambers for the City of Cape Canaveral City Council budget Workshop we have an agenda before us call this meeting to order council member Willis would you please lead us in the pledge alance to the flag of the United States of America to the for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all thank you very much and thank you all Council for being here City staff and everyone who's joining us here in the chambers and online city clerk would you please call the role council member Davis here counc member Jackson here mayor Pro Tim Kellum here mayor Morrison here council member Willis here okay everyone's here go into the public participation portion of the meeting I do not have any cards if anyone intends to speak please raise your hand make sure we didn't lose your card seeing No Hands raised for those of you who are listening online we ask that you please virtually raise your hand I will uh go ahead and unmute you and make make sure you're heard I do see one hand raised uh Mr Pat Campbell if you intend to speak I see your hand raised I'm going to go ahead and unmute you uh just one second here there you go can you hear me yes sir hear you loud and clear okay thank you uh and thank you all for what you do I had um brought this topic up before a couple of years ago and I want to bring it up again it's actually two different things one is I would like a discussion or start a conversation at some point about participatory budgeting um there's a lot of resources out there that can explain all of it and show examples of where it works for other municip ities and in the same discussion I would like uh some conversation about uh spending caps at some level um of forecasted expenditures I think it either ought be brought to the citizens for a vote or or at the very least some sort of a different approval process that gets uh citizens the ability to weigh in on a large expenditure um and under participatory budgeting be able ble to actually uh make some decisions about you know what the priorities and where the money goes thank you thank you Mr Campbell mute back I don't see any other hands raised Mr Campbell if you don't mind please lower your hand thank you very much uh to make sure we are all closed out here and with that we'll go ahead and close public participation bring it back to the council Council we got a workshop tonight discussion item I don't think we're taking any action in this particular meeting obviously we have a 6:00 p.m. council meeting so do my best to keep track of the time to give ourselves a little bit of a cushion so we don't roll right into the meeting um and with that we can go ahead and kick this off if there's no initial questions from the council like to give the floor to our city manager and maybe Finance director if you choose and we'll be ready to get started Council good with that city manager thank you mayor and uh thank you Council welcome to the beginning of our official beginning of our budget season the the goal we want to get out of tonight is to uh arrive at a tentative proposed millage rate because that's one of the items of the next agenda that we're going to have to put out there and of course the T tenative proposed millit rate um you can always go lower than that in the future but you can't go higher so that's one consideration in setting that uh just as a brief overview for the audience um the council has already begun working on the preliminary part of the budget here um by a couple CIP Workshops the capital Improvement plan that basically says well in addition to just running the city what do we want to get done what are the projects we want to get done so the council has met and they have agreed on those uh cips um some things got pushed back some things got pulled forward but we we have that at our disposal as for Council to consider and then after that work is done the the property appraiser comes to us and they say well here's your taxable value um in the City of Cape Canaveral for the first time we passed $2 billion in taxable total assessed taxable valuation that's that's remarkable um so we take um different scenarios and we figure well with that much in taxable value if we applied this tax rate to it we could get all of these things done that we said we needed to in our cips um so that's how we start doing the budget and that that is a starts with a proposed rate of 35790 for the general fund millage and that's what's being proposed if if we want to get all those things done um one of the things we've learned working with Council I've learned over the last couple years is um they like to have options so we we proposed three options and they're on attachment to to the agenda item there Mia if you would slide forward to that and there there are three General items I can go ahead and talk about them one of them is um it's it's not going to be in the ACT document it's going to be in the agenda packet the first one is always we want to discuss well what is rollback what would rollback look like um and roll back what that means is it generally means you want to get the same amount of revenue from taxes you got last year um so that's a different rate applied to that taxable valuation and it it says well if you do roll back this is the amount of money you've got and you can get everything done that you want to get done except you're going to be short here short there well roll back rate in this case would be 3.32 47 Ms are you able to go to attachment to three point there you go so the top one is the is the F the first option is roll back so 3.32 47 Ms that gets us the same amount of Revenue as we got last year in other words it's not a tax increase um but there there are some cuts that would have to be made there would be a shortfall of $500,000 so we'd have to decide what what to cut out to cut out $500,000 the CRA would be reduced uh by $258,000 and we'd have to um do some actions one example would be if we didn't do oaklane that's $550,000 could be pushed out to the next year that's just an example of something we could do the second option we look at is what we call the middle of the road um we've learned the council likes to see a middle of the road option between roll back and the proposed rate so right smack in the middle of those two is 3.45 one9 Ms um same thing we have to look at we got to cut out $250,000 worth of things C would be reduced only by $19,000 and you'd have to have some required actions to achieve and anytime you look at these these options of things you got to cut there's tough choices to be made um for example the tennis court resurfacing you know that that's a concern we might have if we don't resurface it we might perhaps have to um do something else there to as emergency measure to close it off so it doesn't become dangerous with that depression that's there also manity Park upgrades could perhaps be pushed out a year contingency would be reduced from 300,000 to 250,000 and renewal and replacement uh from 2 8 to 238,000 so that that's the scenario for middle of the road and of course the the third option there at the bottom that's if we'd accept the proposal um at 35790 that gets everything done we say we said we wanted to do uh in the CIP workshops uh gives us a $300,000 contingency RNR stays at 288,000 we get the new staff it position we get the new IM position uh we get the new code enforcement position and uh development services p uh director position obviously there's been some some updates recently to that position and we should talk about that in the organizational chart and if we want to fund that mayor uh moving forward because that could make u a difference too and then there of course John thank you for putting the arpa summary in there um for $300,000 for for thur Boulevard improvements so that's kind of an overview of where we are and this is the kind of time where we start talking about the hard choices about what we want to cut if we want to go to roll back or middle of the road or anything less in the proposed rate and that's kind of my overview there but mayor before I turn it back over to the council John would like to say just a couple words if that's okay John Mayor councel um we've had two meetings and through those meetings we've removed uh capital projects right to get to where we're at now and the city manager has just read the implications of whether you go with rollback uh middle of the road or if we stay where we're at I just want to and and I'll probably be sending a just a memo to council here and maybe in a few days or whatever but um and it's just to remind you of what the future holds and and I don't like to call them consequences but in the future it could be a consequence and and what has to do is you know I I'm I'm concerned okay and of course I don't make the final determination you all do but I am concerned that we need to be I think Council needs to be careful if they're constantly reducing uh taxes especially to roll back because every time we do that and for the last three years we keep pushing out capital projects and um my concern there is that um not only that but we also reduce our contingency and our renewal rep placement uh funds but if we keep this is all I I like the message I want to get to council if we keep deferring capital projects well when will we ever get them done we may not be able to afford them in the future and if we are it might require us taking out more loans because the prices went up so so dramatically so just just to keep that in your foresight because in the end if we kept a trend if we kept going to roll back eventually taxes will have to be risen risen because we because we're we may want to get some of the capital projects done that we keep deleting and keep moving forward and and ultimately in the end so I think there needs to be a you know a certain approach there to be aware and have the foresight of that because otherwise there'll come a time when you'll have to raise taxes dramatically to make up for the shortfall depending on if you want to get these capital projects stun that we've been pushing out so I I just wanted to bring that to your uh to your attention that um you know maybe taxes could be reduced but we do have to keep you know in sight the projects that we keep pushing out and and um so I just wanted to make Council aware of that uh a few other things and if Council would go to their Council would go to their um budget books and and look at page 57 on uh the CRA everybody when everybody's there um I just want to I I received information from Jill Hayes the uh bravard budget officer and you know when we do the budget we don't we don't always have all the information we need obviously because everybody else is getting ready the same way we are here's all I want to bring to your attention is uh this is from the um budget officer at the county the proposed general fund millage rate based on our chapter cap is 2.92 7 so that's where they're at now remember that the county when we when they give money to the CRA let's say our our rate's 3.5 or 3.3 they still just give us 3.29 now when Joey and I did the budget we were looking at last year and the intervals there so our our estimation of the um the Cy's what the we we're trying to guess what the County's millages uh proposed millage it was below ours okay but and we set it just below by a couple by $100,000 whatever but but what I'm conveying here is that this 2.9 207 look at the contingency line that says 297-7785 77,000 so that line that you look at and I will have a memo coming to you you know a few days seven days after this meeting on all the changes and part of that in that memo will say the county contacted the City of Cape canaval and said you're only you know you're only getting this much based on the 2.9 so Joey and I comp computed that and it's $277,000 less so I just wanted to you to make you aware of that fact um the other cities are coming in with their um proposed millages and we'll be updating the book accordingly Joey just got um a list from Titusville who had accumulated most of the cities in the county so we have their proposed um interestingly enough there's a number of cities that have significantly raised their millage rates um so it's just a sign of the you know sign of the times and maybe they're trying to get some of their deferred projects completed hard to say every city has a different situation and the only other thing I want to bring up is if Council would please go to page 24 and if you look at as you know in December uh council's uh pay will be will go up and that's going to be based on that CPI when we receive that and um so those numbers will change I just want to let you know that on page 24 where it says the mayor's pay will be adjusting that that'll be an adjustment because um we're estimating what what those adjustments will be but the mayor's pay wasn't adjusted there so in my memo it'll also say that the mayor's pay is going to be an estimated this and then of course when December comes around or early January Council will get its pay raise accordingly um as uh voted on um you know whenever that was voted on a year ago or what have you so was it two years ago time flies um so anyway I just wanted to make youall aware of that and uh uh thank you mayor protm mayor protm uh talked to me and had caught that and uh thank you and that's what we need and tonight when we look through things if there's something off we'll make all the adjustments and we'll get you a um a memo that shows what all the adjustments are also one last thing and um I know four of you are aware of it and I know um council member Jackson is new on on the counil but when we get the estimated um gross taxable value it's it's one number in this in this case in the budget you'll see 2 b69 well actually uh it's kind of nice that obviously after we get the budget done the county the provar property appraiser comes and says okay now here's the new number right and in this case it wasn't much higher it was 2 billion 72 which only affected our taxes by like 9800 so that was a good thing because then it doesn't skew what you're looking at tonight by much okay $9,800 so that's all I have uh thank you I want to give you those updates though and then we can get off to a start here thank you city manager thank you our finance director and the entire team everyone who's worked to get this far um Council back to us council member Jackson yes and I had a question on the that value that the county gave us that the county gave us uhuh do we have any of the new properties that have received a tax apatment from the county no but I think I know where you're going with that because um I'm wondering why the county is coming in so low and of course that article was in the paper that uh said how they wanted to you know Abey taxes for new businesses and whatever to attract you know attract business in and then uh you know you track you could you don't need as many taxes if you could generate more Revenue by having thousands of new employees right so um in answer to your question I you know the 2.9 when I saw that I immediately thought about what you just said and and um I saw that in the paper uh actually in the earlier this week so I don't know where they're going to go with it she's saying 2.9 I don't know if it's going to go higher than that but I mean they didn't they haven't passed theirs either so we just have to wait and see okay thank yeah member Jackson anything from you anything else at this time CC this is a time for us to ask any questions ccil member Willis Davis mayor protim no particular order I have question yes please mayor Pro Tim Kell okay um I went through some questions with John and got some answers but then I found a few other ones uh Just for information sake um if we go to page 57 Professional Services went from 152,000 to 400,000 oh I'm sorry okay what was the page P 57 page 57 okay so the increase in Professional Services I was just wondering what that's for the 400k yeah yeah and today uh what we've done today is is uh Joey this this is going to be really helpful going forward with these workshops is Joey has his um computer here that we could look at the workbooks so I should be able to look at that workbook and tell you why that went up to 400k and then you know I don't have to memorize uh 1500 lines in the budget so that was my joke Mickey for the day so I just yeah so mayor per Tim Kellum your question is about the professional service fees what is that what what makes that amount up is that right so what makes that up is the presidential streets master plan the survey is estim is estimated to be um 300, 000 the planning design fees for Homewood Force main extension is $100,000 so it's those two entities that's what makes up that number wouldn't the Force main extension be part of storm water waste waterer why would it if it's in if it's in the CRA and um I'm sure there were discussions on that to where that put it um of course he's not here to talk about Mr Mr Dicky had worked on these items so uh the Force main uh that's where it was being where the where the where the money was coming out of as the CRA so um that was determined you know months ago I'll say a few months ago when we did the when we did the budget yeah I don't know if Todd do you have any input on that Force m is that a CIP item in the CR yeah it's CR it's cr3 um if Council wants to look at cr3 we get the page number5 uh the no wait the the Force main isn't the Force main is not a a CR item but the presidential streets but the presidential streetsign is cr3 yeah the design is cr3 okay so which is on uh which is on uh page 125 if you look at page 125 and this is this is the work that um was done by staff and Mr Dicky the construction you know the 1.3 million was the estimate based on um their estimates and then the 300K for the survey SL engineering design Outreach p page 125 okay on page 125 it shows the 300,000 if you look in this year's budget book 2324 it says 300,000 budgeted for survey engineering design and Outreach is this another 300,000 you're looking at this year's this current Year's budget that we approved last year I mean yeah this one yes I don't believe that that had taken that had taken place um I don't have last year yes I do have last year's budget here um Joey bring up the operating in right now right now are you saying it's in this year next year are you saying it's in both year budgets yes well then that means that it wouldn't be in both year budgets that means it that had to be that obviously did not get done and is being carried over or being done in the next fiscal year okay Todd I don't know of any presidential Street redesign for 300K that was done this year we've got a a bid coming back to council very soon hopefully it's going to be within that range right but that that um the only thing I would know of would be the hund the kimley Horn uh 50 ,000 that that they may be doing um for that Tim is that a pre is Tim back there Tim is that a presidential streak could you come up I think what we're trying to distinguish here based on the mayor prm's question is are they two different are they two different things okay and let me look at this thing here look at see so we got this okay and then there's this yeah I see I see this as the same thing I see this I see it as a rollover I see it as a r roll over to in other words this was put in the next year's budget because we didn't foresee this happening from what I could see based on how this was put in by um the staff that did this is that's not happening by September 30th so it was accounted for a next year would you say that's accurate Todd yeah that's reasonable yeah yeah we're not going to buy the same product twice yeah so Mickey I don't see this happening by 30 September and therefore those costs will hit in the 24 25 so the one that we did for 150 for through the CRA for the Civic the Civic Cub is that's not that's not this okay no thank you m and we may see that a few times in this budget to where something didn't get done or isn't going to get done this year which happens every year and then happens in October and November the following year and then it has to be it's put in the budget because it's forecasted that it was not going to happen Okay um my next question is on page 101 the uh thurm Boulevard improvements we have um impact fees and um the general fund um when I look back in the budget books and cuz I just like to compare and look back on things and see what where we are in the 2019 2020 adopted budget there was 280,000 I mean , 870,000 for Central Boulevard and thurm Boulevard and I know we went we did cost it went way above budget there you talking about West Central yeah what the when went above cost 600,000 because of all the work they did to remove the mck and transfer the all those items that occurred yes because of the soil and yeah and that's where we we took a hit in the CRA that year too yeah and my question is are we going to have the same problem on thurm Boulevard that this is the estimated amount but when we get dig in is it going to be over budget again because of the soil and that that is a very good question and Tim I don't know uh if that's so what I'll do with this road that was different from what we did with Central uh is I'll have uh geotechnical data in many different areas before we start what's that before we it gets started yes yes I definitely want to know what's underground and I think the problem that we ran across on Central was we only poth hold in certain areas and it could have been four areas could have been six I don't remember off the top of my head Jeff was the one that managed that project um but what we do know on that side of of Cape Canaveral is that they used a lot of the uh dredging materials to to get to dredge the Port out to build up on that land so it's very nonp yeah so when we I definitely want to know what's under the ground before we start that project and that project will actually increase um I had budgeted for uh one $1,480 th000 but I did put a special note in there um if I'm not mistaken that the the project most likely uh we don't know how much the project will be on the off the top of our heads I can get an estimated cost um but we'll know more once we get into the project okay and then you is it possible to use um you know instead of the 280,000 out of the general fund can we use storm water money there because we are changing the storm water well as it depicts here to 280 that's coming that's coming out of I am in the general fund so Tim I would have to say that's because those things th those are I am related you know what's ever going to take place on that that street I'm not so sure that you could um use all those funds for that and let me let me just add in this too ther is o on storm water yeah on storm water on S sw7 on page 157 uh in answer to your question mayor protim $600,000 is being charged to storm water for this project in addition to the 200 in addition to the 280 yeah because there is a element of uh infrastructure maintenance and then there's the the storm water and then you have the um 1.2 million is the U impact fees that we have okay and that was my other question impact fees have to be used for I mean can we use impact fees somewhere else or does it have to be used uh you want to answer that ter the impact fees that we're talking about are currently held by Bard County they're paid to Bard County for transportation impact fees for hotel development in order to get them we have to enter into an agreement with them for a specified expenditure we can't just change that um see one second um okay we figured out the 510,000 yeah we figured out okay um the community I know at the last meeting we discussed that the $51,000 for the maintenance on the splash bad was coming out of the CRA where is that reflected in this budget is it's not in the operating costs for Parks and Recreation or uh look in PRCA and look in their workbook under professional fees or Contract Services because I believe that we had to um that was that was questioned and um it was determined where that had to be moved and we did move it so let's take a look at that go to go to um soon as we know a page number yeah I'm gonna take your time yes thank you uh no it's going to be yeah okay so go to 11 and right there right there okay and that will be in yeah so the splash pad right we did have that discussion and the splash pad was moved to Contract Services in uh Department 11 PRCA and that's where that resides okay and what page is that in that is Page 41 and look under contract Services there's a line item there for 187,000 but that's probably that's that's multiple but the 51,000 is in Contract Services okay and then my last question is and we talked about this the street signs went from 6,000 to 42,000 and we were going to ask June what what kind of signs we're getting for 42,000 June do you want to tell us all the beautiful signs we're getting what page is that on May Pam 37 37 I'm Miss June good evening hi um I went through this with Jessica uh it was cut one year and I think that was in 200 2122 to a mine signs was 48 and then next year 2223 was cut down to 3,000 which isus 94 so we were just trying to bring it up because we our stocks are gone if we have a hurricane we hardly have any signs so we just wanted to get the signs back up soon as we get it back up we'll drop it back down okay all right thank you you're welcome oh that's all I have right now Mickey that's Mickey that's just a sign of the times okay right okay thank you that'll grow on me that was that deserved a laugh I'm sorry yeah that was good yeah um mayor protim I think you're good for now oh Council may approach him asked some of my questions so I'm I'm good for now great thank you council member will okay thank you council member Davis council member Jackson how are you a list of them which won't we won't even have enough time to go through but um I'm curious on the president residential streets once a project and I know it'd be projected but once a project is started how long will it take to complete you want to give a best guess there oh gosh on a project like that depending on how deep we go what we deal with uh if we're going to deal with utilities um if we're just going to do a simple top of the surface project I I think start with like West Central that was a very deep project and then some how long did West Central take it took about a about a year and a quarter I think so a year and three months so it'd be safe to to bet that we would have at least a year and a quarter for one presidential how long it took I think so cuz I think it was I'm going to say 10 months okay you know because I think you always win when you're under so I'm GNA say 10 months but um yes I I I would I would agree there that probably a year and a quarter and this is the first presidential street that we're going to do so we are definitely on strange unchartered territories so I think one and a quarter years might be a good place to start you know and there's so much more to talk about there but and then knowing that we don't have anything really planned as far as what we would want the area to look like but we have an idea and some proposals for the Civic Cub how long do we think it would take to complete those projects that project if we had an had a design once we have a design that project's in different phases yeah there's a storm water phase and then there's above ground phase right and I think we were only talking about the storm water phase is that correct yeah yeah I mean there's demolition involved there um there's impact to facilities there's um say a little bit less than a year I'd say about 12 months 11 months yeah and those I mean a presidential Street and that project could be going on concurrently possibly too depending on what council approves right okay so how many I'm sorry how many months again city manager 12 months I think is what we're comfortable with for the storm water just the storm water component okay and um all right now that would include the demolition the removal of everything uh which I believe was possibly rack not racket ball I'm sorry uh shovel B courts uh wherever we decide you guys decide that y'all want the uh underground Chambers the proping and all that stuff and yall know I'm going to I'm worried about storm water I don't have to tell you that um because we've got a lot of our money tied up from CRA in this um and what does our CRA look like as far as funds John for projects how are we working with currently if we look at this you know this it's all it's all predicated on how how soon you think we would get to the initial phases of I guess design of the presidential streets and what's involved um because right now you look in the CRA we got $1.3 million and will we spend $1.3 million in this upcoming year Well possibly but I can't tell you the phases on how the Project's going to run but it would seem that $1.3 million and uh Todd um I guess you you probably agree that that that's probably a good number that gets us off and going um I don't know where it goes from there we haven't there's you know there's been no study or anything about about that but it's in terms of your your question is what kind of funds do we have I think she's also asking what's the projected revenue for the C for next year the projected Revenue Joey what what is the um the number now that we're 2.9 it's 277 lower okay so and I'm going to just do this here uh would be about $4 million so yeah we're looking at about 29 about $4 million and then there's pledged revenues out of that um well in terms of the debt The Debt Service is $858,000 so that plays into it now what's going to affect that number what was The Debt Service sorry the debt well The Debt Service it's on page 57 it's $858,000 that's the that's the loans we're we paying on page one on page 57 now because of what the county set there uh proposed rate at a 2.9 so we'll be around4 million for revenue and then of course when Council votes on where they want to set the millage then that's going to have the effect that the city manager had um read before where if you go middle of the road then take $129,000 off that 4 million and if you go roll back take $258,000 off that 4 million okay so you got about $4 million to play with if you ke if if if you win in with this right now uh and that's what the deduction of why when the Count's sitting there thing too low I wanted to know on that on how that was impacted um okay and then I have some individual what some comments on individual items mayor do you want me to go for it okay all right um uh on the art installations at intersections I know that's not very much money however I'm curious did we look at accident rates um for these kind of things because right now we're having problems with um ebikes and golf carts and bicycles that don't necessarily watch where they're going when they're in town visiting and I'm worried about distracted drivers I'm seeing more and more of that and increases of that since we've had increased traffic visitors to our area since the pandemic so I'm curious about that I'm curious about what kind of uh cost we're looking at going forward but because we're also increasing the number of e vehicles that we have in the area and the tire traffic the tires have more Road pollution on those so I was wondering have we looked at any of those things as we look at doing this um I'm worried about art being in the middle of intersections and it's because of what I'm seeing in our city so that's one thing I was curious about if and I don't know Molly might be able to answer those things is more this is cr4 this is more of a Lexi Lexi's a project manager on that particular item so she probably could speak best for that so uh this is cr4 do we know the page P 126 thank you it's not much money but as we look at what we're doing in this budget this is one thing that just um you have a concern yes I think if you have I don't know how many of these you have but we can at least flag these okay flag this one as a just questions or concerns about it yes um flag this one also um flag the cape Center battery storage project which is im10 im1 and if we can get yes can I make a suggestion yes please based on council member Jackson's list if you would want to for the sake of time send me that list on the ones you want to flag and I will get the project officers associated with that and we'll get your questions answered and then we'll we'll go ahead and uh reply to the whole Council on what transpired with those perfect because I have several of them with yeah several of the items that we have from the CIP and you know if we're looking at the budget they impact the budget and so I want to know how we have determined that because we didn't get to pull it out during the last C two CIP workshops and really talk about it um so and and I do have a list right here here and I've topped out my concern so it'll be easy to get to you um just because even if it's loow hanging fruit we want to make sure I want to make sure as a council person that we're spending our money in the places that I think we need and I'm concerned about storm water and Council M Jackson you'll then by doing it this way you'll get firsthand the justification as to why we ended up there and like I said we'll get the project officers involved mayor is that okay with you yes if okay with you I think we got the first two just so the council can become familiar with the names of them if if you don't have page numbers that's okay but if you don't mind before we wrap up just saying a few of them that you choose so we can be mindful of them and okay um one was the art installations the other was the um Cap Center Page 126 yeah the cape Center battery storage project um CED one which I think is really necessary that's the um reevaluation of that that plan but I'm wondering if we should instead of spending a huge amount if we should take a look at doing a survey ourselves first simply to get a a feel for what our citizens want mhm um then that was C ced1 yes okay um ced3 how much protection we we get on the shoreline on that one ER rca1 I wanted to find out what type of golf cart as far as are we looking at this for passenger utility I can get that to everyone um on the list and then the other one was a PRCA 12 because that one um we literally have that one with multiple things going on at this one with that one it's such a great little area that's on the memorial in between canaval Sands and roal mansions we have golf carts all over there right now but the main thing that is new development is that it's now on Google Maps and map quest as a memorial so we need to make sure that we are addressing that before we move it forward as far as what we need to do so those are some of the ones that I was looking at and that's the way I looked at it because I wasn't as aware of the budget last year to compare like you all would have done Mr Mayor great question yes council member Willis I want to be sure that uh Finance lets us know on the uh grants that are applied to any of these so that because that will help because for instance the the one on the uh battery storage that was a 75% Grant out of that so you know that that will color everything right so council member Jackson so if you send me an email with your list I will get the uh and I want to directors and the project whoever the project officer is for that and they can answer your questions firsthand and that allows me and Joey then to update anything that might change and uh they'll be orderly that way and my and just on just so you know on the battery storage project the the concern I have is that we are we just bought a $50,000 tiger dam for that building and we're building it out like it's going to be the building for an emergency response type of Center but we're having to protect it and so is that really practical in a disaster having one that's I think they said 1,800 ft from the mean High tid line be our emergency backup if we were in a disaster so that's one reason that I have pulled it out to question it's not necessarily the money it's the location I'm questioning just so you know and so the team knows thank you it sounds like a good plan and the other thing one one last question I had and that is have we had I would like to get a list of any grants that we counted on last year in our budget that we did not receive any type of money that we thought we were getting that we didn't just to make sure that we have a handle on any any that may not have gone through okay I'll get with staff and we'll get the answer to that question thank you that's all I have thank you all right we're at 5:52 p.m. let's talk about just the schedule briefly um as we're nearing the end our next meeting so we got our Workshop we'll we'll have a public hearing first reading on the millage rate tonight um and and obviously we'll have another reading there but as far as the next time we're going to get together on this budget when will that be I think that would be the best thing for us to focus on now is determining that um so that schedule was I think provided I saw it um page uh page 17 mayor in the budget thank you very much page 17 in the budget book August 6th yep that would be the date that's the one that we reserved yes and city clerk is telling us is that the tenative one that we need to make a final decision on no you're you're wanting another budget Workshop correct well I'm I don't I think because I speak for myself on the schedule if needed it would be August 20th at 5 and then the first budget hearing um is September 3rd okay I'm going to have to do that Warr time so the August 20th budget Workshop is at 5 and that one's scheduled and approved there's no action we need to do on that one it says if needed because in the past some councils have decided we don't need a second budget Workshop we can go straight to the first budget hearing so you need to I think just get a consensus that you're going to go ahead and have the the workshop I think you're holding up the official one that we approved I think John's referencing the one in the budget book I pull up I don't see if needed on this one but I I think I got it yeah I don't that's the proposed budget book if they don't have their dates correct um well I spoke with the city manager on this Todd do you want to talk to the mayor about August 6th or do you want me to yeah the August 6th is would be the ideal date for us um if it's later that month I know you're going to be out of the country for a while um so limited on staff but also if it gets too late in the month when you get back it's probably not on the official schedule but it was put in the budget if yeah it comes too late in the month when you get back upon your return there's not enough time to do any changes to the budget then want me to pass this down while we're figuring this out is there a desire to have another Workshop I would like to um thank you very much so I know they're tiny and we obviously need you there and so if your schedule if we need to move it we can to fit could that be voted on in this meeting for August 6th if that works because yeah I I would I will ask Council if they can do that because I will be out of the country and on August 20th and um you know I have Joey here and I I prefer that you know Joey's Joy's new at this and uh his first swing at it so I'd like him to be here with him and when Council makes these changes then before I get on the plane Joey canav all the changes up to that date and then we have the first hearing September 3rd and then we'll be ready for councel and we'll have a nice New uh book for them to look at uh because we might just print out a whole new book for you if there's substantial changes okay thank you so August 6th is the requested best date for everyone to be here city clerk good are you all good okay Council any issues with that date I will be unavailable okay um I may be able to call in but I can't guarantee that at this point um that's important um is there one more option it sounds like we could do that but we wouldn't have council member Willis I'm a I'm available through August 12th I'm available through August 12th I think it's wise for us to definitely take the sixth but do our best to make sure we can have everybody here well and I'm totally I won't be here for the six is absolutely yeah I won't be here but I will make every effort to call in if that's okay with you I think it would well I I understand and the importance of John's schedule and I I'll make every effort okay and council member Willis you could call me from wherever you're at or even before that and I could answer all your questions to give you copies of whatever you need yeah and I I know I know council member Davis how do that date work for you council member Jackson Mayor per Tim August 6th yes that's fine it's August there's August 13th too I don't know if that's uh be better for I'm not here oh you're not here okay when are you leaving August 13th the night of August 13th okay so the August so August 6th it's going to have to be then so do we we need to confirm the sixth this says the seventh are you referring to where the arrow is I don't see August 6th anywhere on this it's not going to be very in the in the light blue in between just above August 20 oh there it is yeah so the August 6 7 that's to let you know that it's reserved already got it so what lock that in what time St what time for :1 is earlier but I mean we could go earlier I think that might be not too early for 4:30 4:30 works you you would be able to make it well if we need to move it further out to fit that's fine but myedu be okay let's shoot for 4:30 4:30 for now okay and lock that in and then if we need to adjust it for whatever reason okay at least we take advantage of this so do we we need to take that as a vote uh that consens consens fine consensus any oppose 4:30 p.m. August 6th budget workshop with that we are out of time for this one before we head into our council meeting looking for a motion to adjourn second meeting adjourned thank you I think we just need the one