the uh Planning and Zoning Board City of Cape gav will come to order is February 28th 6 o'clock and it's time to call the rooll Renee would you call the rooll please miss Denny here miss Jor here Dr Miller here Mr Price present Mr Russell here Mr Sharp present Mr here okay this is the part of the uh agenda for public participation the only person I see out there is uh Mr Dicky and I don't believe he wants to speak yet so I'll move past that unless uh is there any participation from the deputy okay thank you I want to pass anybody at okay we have no old business under new business we need to approve the minutes of January the 24th Mr chairman I recommend that we accept uh or approve the minutes of January 24th uh 2024 minutes as written Mr chairman I second that motion thank you is uh okay uh Renee would you call a roll please miss Denny for the motion Miss J cor for the motion Dr Miller for the motion Mr price for the motion Mr Russell for the motion Mr Sharp for the motion Mr stal for the motion all right now we're uh into uh the business of discussing the uh allowance of a uh current height adjustment or or whatever is needed for certain rooftop uses and provide staff Direction on a future code revision so we're not doing a uh a code review although we do have some material for lots of good ideas in front of us and we'll depend on the staff to lead us through that material as they want to point out uh pertinent parts of it and so I'll turn it over to the staff and let them proceed and we'll have our own discussion good evening everyone um I am here bringing this back we we briefly spoke about this very briefly um at the September pnz meeting um this uh this topic is about finding some way or not finding some way depending on how we want to approach this of um looking at our current height requirements um in across the board all zoning districts um to allow for certain rooftop amenities or active rooftop uses is kind of how I refer to them and I you guys can't see my my slideshow but I kind of just give a few examples um active rooftop uses are things that would take advantage of the city's unique geography its unique position um observation decks um bars and restaurants rooftop gardens things like that um and so so typically we've heard this from um Hotel developers but not not entirely Hotel developers we've had some residents here who um are interested in utilizing their rooftops um and just the example I'm thinking of a gentleman wants to use his rooftop to view launches but his spouse is in a wheelchair so she would need an elevator to to get up to that top floor um and and by our code uh we would require um anything that that would be considered habitable by by humans let me let me find the exact not intended for human anything not intended for human occupancy cannot be considered an exception to the height so um this is kind of a challenge as far as providing these rooftop I ities because in a lot of cases these are hotels that have already received uh a permission and in some cases site plan approval to build up to six stories 65 fet and um are wanting to add observation decks and have have argued you know somewhat convincingly that an observation deck is not necessarily intended for human occupancy but um Ada code requires that there's an elev elator in an elevator Lobby and that is something required for human occupancy so um based on our city code section 110 471 uh we we just couldn't make it work um we feel that you know any anything area of Refuge uh elevator Lobby these are things that are intended for human occupancy um so it's a bit of a tricky situation we um are turning to you guys for some some guidance here it's a it's a pretty unique problem um I'm sure many of you are aware there's some rooftop bars around Bard County um Titusville has the space bar Hotel Melby has one but those specifically both those cases were part of a larger plan development that allowed for Heights I think in the case of Titusville it was maybe 85 feet don't quote me on that and then in melbour it was even taller so um these are took place in more urbanized areas that wanted you know more height um so staff has done some research um like I said it's a pretty unique problem that we're we're facing so we're going to have to get a little creative um we we do discuss a couple of possible uh Solutions or possible approaches um it could be as simple as amending section 110 471 to uh add the height of an elevator Lobby or other accessib options as necessary for ADA compliance to serve a rooftop use as permitted as a permitted height exception um and obviously these are just scratching the surface so these are just kind of kind of batting around some ideas um there's also the the potential of if we wanted to introduce more board approval getting certain um you know how how currently the cab can approve Heights above 45 feet up to 65 feet doing something like that for a rooftop amenity whether it's a cab pnz we could talk about that um and then obviously there's always leaving the code AS is um leaving it as maximum of 65 ft with cab approval and asking um you know Hotel years and and other commercial buildings to work within the codes that we already have whether that's um incorporating a a rooftop bar within a step back on the fifth floor um some of the developers we've we've spoken to about that idea have given us a little pause um with our our code requiring 150 units and the size of some of the parcels they they would argue that it's a little difficult to to fit the minimum number of units in and all the infrastructure necessary um while while also providing a carve out um I haven't actually done the you know looked at gone in and seen that but um it's certainly a possibility but so yeah we're really turning it to you guys asking for some you know thoughts anything that you guys may be able to offer um just a few considerations um we would would certainly want to include certain conditions um on any rooftop amenities so if there were a rooftop bar or a restaurant we we would certainly want that to be something open to the public you know conditions like that are the type of things that we would probably want to put on that but we can we can talk about that when when we get there um and then just things you know making sure that any shade canopies seating areas they all meet wind speeds and you know kind of obvious stuff that you know maybe isn't so obvious if you don't put it in code um I do have I spoke with John rower um he is from Kaizen Kaizen companies he is a hotel developer and he asked he couldn't be here tonight he was planning to be um but he really wanted to uh show his support so he has emailed me and it's not too bad of a it's only a couple paragraphs so um I would like to read it in the record and I I do have some some copies if you guys would like so um this is John roiter from Kaizen companies he is a hotel developer he says I would like to express our support of the proposed ordinance modification to exceed maximum height restrictions for the development of rooftop bars observation decks and restaurants in the City of Cape gaval this modification represents a tremendous opportunity for the city to enhance its economic Vitality cultural appeal and overall quality of life rooftop establishment offer a unique and immersive experience for residents and visitors alike they can provide stunning panoramic views of Cape canabal which is a beautiful city and has amazing coastlines creating memorable and enjoyable experiences for all who visit by allowing buildings to exceed maximum height restrictions for the development of rooftop bars observation decks and restaurants the city can attract new businesses increase tourism and stimulate economic growth in the community furthermore rooftop venues can serve as focal points focal points for Community Gatherings and events fostering a sense of community pride and unity they can also contribute to the revitalization of underutilized areas transforming them into vibrant and dynamic spaces that benefit the city as a whole so wanted to read his thoughts into the record like I said we've been speaking for quite a while so he wanted to be here and um wanted to make sure his thoughts were heard um but in the meantime I'd love to hear any thoughts you guys have questions you know if you want to talk it out and you know try try to try to reach some solutions okay um I don't know which question to ask first I've got so many but I think a lot if I'm smart enough to ask think of them the rest of the board is too so we they'll come out um you know you're talking about retrofitting existing existing rooftops to to build such an accommodation you thinking about new site plans that'll incorporate it to begin with but you still got to have the height height exception or if they're able to they can put a rooftop accommodation within their own allocation of stories uh anyway and then there's out elevators outside elevators all those things so I'm just going to ask the board and I'm going to want to make it sort of a free form instead of asking each one of you one by one let's just have a conversation about this and what are your IDE you've had a week to think about it or more than that you've had a time to think think about it what do you what do you what what ideas do you have and what problems do you foresee just open it up and you got uh anything to you want to start us off with no I went through this package it was very good thank you but um it seems like such an attractive thing to do and something we should do but I think it's not going to be easy as it looks at first I thought well we can just change the heights I think there's going to be a lot more to it um and uh I'm I'm I know it could be done and we can get through it but it's not going to be an easy one not as easy as I thought it would be initially anyway yeah yeah how do you take a an existing hotel and retrofit the roof to and keep the rooms required you know that's what I was thinking well if they they just cut some of that out we wouldn't have to go up and then they would lose their what was it 150 rooms rooms yeah and the rooms are 150 rooms are for those of you that don't know there might be somebody new on the board but the 150 room requirement is to make sure that we don't have lots of little mom and pop hotels around town that like we used to which turned in to less lesser than uh lesser areas of living in so anyway uh 150 so there's that requirement uh if I if I could just clarify one thing that you said M gentore um I suppose it's probably possible to retrofit an existing hotel but it's to have a rooftop but yeah it would be very expensive and all the conversations we've had so far have been hotels that have not been constructed yet I you know I I I know that I think I you can see it but we have so many new ones that have just gone up and just opened that they're going to be in competition with it right yeah they're all looking for a way to get a leg up so yeah so the ones that are under construction would still have a chance to incorporate the uh rooftop amenities into their already established plan there there are there's one that has a letter that was approved by our building official um they included a hypothetical design for a rooftop observation deck um with the acknowledgment that this isn't currently possible and that you know should something happen in the future you know an ordinance changing the language of the code then it could be explored but as it stands they're not planning on doing that design but if we change the code to accommodate it with with an ordinance which we don't have yet but with an ordinance to come they'd still have a chance to incorporate into design yeah assuming they met everything in the ordinance yeah John what do you think you know I I agree with Nancy I spend a little bit of time on this and what occurred to me was I need more education yeah it uh you know I thought what I was thinking was boy it' be nice to have some kind of little workshop at some point to talk about you know what needs to be done the the things that really need to be I mean I'm I would be excited about a rooftop venue of something um but I have no idea about how to go about right and it's I mean it involves not just me but you know our building official fire everyone so maybe a workshop wouldn't be a bad idea or just some I I think that would be a great idea you mentioned something today I was totally unfamiliar with because that's just not my background yeah right and it's like well what is that you know multifaceted yeah it's very goes very deep so yeah I think that's a good comment so that's all I have well Daniel what do you think um let me see if I can make some sense out of this usually when looking at something like this um especially when you have so many people that probably have wanted this for a while and you come in and you do something different that allows the last few to have that ability someone's getting real frustrated so you've got two situations you you can change the code you can allow ow for this extra room for someone to come in and then you're going to have to worry about all the people that are come back in and say well you know you let that happen why don't you just you know fudge this a little bit here and then I can come in retrofit and get this done so you end up in that situation or either you um I mean the existing ones to retrofit you know like you spoken about is an economic burden they going to say you know sure you're you're letting me do this now as a retrofit that's all great and and dandy but you know this next guy is not going to have that burden right so there's there's typically you have to come up with some sort of compromise rather than completely opening the doors to the new opportunity um you have to give the guy that's already been in there and there's enough hotels around here that probably would like to have some sort of resolution it's going to be somewhat expensive but there's rather than completely taken out a floor to accommodate uh a restaurant economic situation above you might be able to do something where there's a partial usage of that fifth floor where you can allow them to have some sort of means to access an Ingress or egress to the roof that does not encroach upon the space as much right that way it's less of a burden for them and they could possibly do it a lot of times that ends up being a an exterior structural situation where you have to get everybody on board to say okay well we can we can pop out over here we can retrofit the structure we can allow for this ramp to go around and get upamp and we can do this in a in a in a semic covered environment to allow this to happen that's in a retrofit situation um for the new uh new guys um we're looking at mixed use those are the guys because I don't know how many hotel sites we have left that are strictly I mean Obvious hotel sites what I'm seeing since I've been in here is there the next opportunities are the the larger 7 acre plus mixed use situations where you've got a different animal coming in which if they get the ability to do this in the new way there's less frustration because they're kind of a new animal so the hotel guys that are here can't say well you know you let him do it because it's it's not just him it they've have they have to take on extra burden of economies by allowing some residential some office they've got more infrastructure they've got to deal with so that it might be easier to get in a situation where we partially do one and partially another maybe maybe we do change the height restriction and allow that in these new zoning areas which gives everybody the opportunity to take and maximize those projects which is going to make them more desirable for developers to come in and and do a mixed use if they have that ability to go on top the Retro guys if we can come in and say well you know we'll give you a shot at this we're willing to pull and tug on the code a little bit on maybe the room amounts or the space allocated and and the construction ability to make this work right okay so I I don't know if all that made sense but it's it's it's kind of you got to split them up right you got to give new guy the new guy stuff uh without hurting the guy that's still sitting in there wanting to make this work yeah and then we're all going to benefit from it yeah I mean it's it's it's going to create a bigger desire for our community for the places that are already desert designated to be this type of thing yeah it's just making it a better this type of thing well change happens it is so yeah if you're if you're an already already existing hotel and and a new animal comes along that has a roof off amenity and you don't have one uh change happens yeah and that's the least part of this but it's you kind of want to try to be fair and you're ring a and a bell rang an alarm Bell if you if you're willing to give on room requirements you're starting to chew on the main pillar of Hotel requirements in town that keeps little bitty hotels coming in and and turning into condos and then turning into undesirable rental flop houses which we've had happen before and we we it took us a lot of years to get that out of here and I I really don't want to see creeping back in no I would see that as maybe four or five rooms at the most no that upper none of them none of them you think it don't give don't give an inch if you give an inch then you're setting yourself up to give a mile later yeah that's true I mean that's just my position and I worked hard to get us there over a lot of years and I just hate to see the ero any erosion sit in and that's that's just my opinion I will speak loudly and long about it there's other ways getting around it I think yeah yeah other ways well didn't mean to jump in there no I think that's all kind of stuff we have to hat out but it's stuff we're going to have to address got you well I agree with everything everybody has said here um I don't know if there's a way to for the existing buildings to come through an exception process based on only for rooftop restaurants or bars or observation things that they can come back into the board for it and we you know we would have that have to be open to the public and all of these other kinds of things and maybe do that on a on an exception basis only for that reason um and we just came up with the mixed use you know we still have the they got to come if they to us if they want to go six stories versus the well not us the other board right um but just kind of some ground rules for whatever a rooftop thing that we would want and again I I agree with you you you know build it into so the new people coming in it's a possibility and then let the old old guys come in with an exception if we have Well yeah if the existing uh people structures businesses want to retrofit and uh see a way to do it and we can give them a way to do it yeah we can do that yeah I do like the workshop idea with the fire department and everybody else there because it's certainly not my bailey Wick I don't understand it all I mean I understand some of it but the intricacies good ideas how about you yeah it just came to my mind I saw this one time where Hotel situation uh You' got all this parking out there um because of codes they had have that parking and their building could only do so much but they created I can't even remember where I saw this they created cupboard parking structure into a corner of their their lot and that became the rooftop for an exteror uh economically viable space and it can be and it can be ACC accessed with a much less expensive um elevator situation and exterior staircases for we would just have to allow them that ability to build out into their parking lot but not really if you do it right you're not going to lose to bases and you're actually going to get a couple covered spaces just a thought yeah into my mind yeah an idea another alternative how about you Dr M you got anything to throw on the fire I like the idea of doing this I've been in some of these venues in other cities and thoroughly enjoy them we have some beautiful views in this city and I think that it would track a lot of businesses in a lot of people I know a lot of people here that go all the way to Melbourne to Melby because enjoy going up there on the roof um if we do it I think it's you've got to come up a way with the existing buildings um Can renovate um I agree with you not giving up any of the rooms because I agree with the concept of keeping the mama pop things uh out of the city um I've always had a good time when I went on one of these Vineyards and I think it would attract so many more people to our city okay stve there are some real logistical nightmares of uh trying to take a building up another floor first place you got to start generally these buildings are designed to have just enough to make them run is your fire pump you got to get water up to that next level on that floor that fire pump's going to be connected to a stand pipe system stand pipe system is going to be part of the stairwell and stairwells are going to have to be brought up to the level of where you want to do that on the roof I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on many a roof doing flow top flow testing of fire pumps and proofing stand pipes and stuff this is going to be one of the requirements you put a a structure up there you've got to get a fire spor system into that structure so it's a lot of logistical nightmares if you've not pled land or have the capacity in your pump system odds are you're not going to be able to push that water up another floor uh to where it meets any type of design criteria um another situation you're going to run through obviously is your elevator equipment you're going to have to get your elevator equipment up to that level and and the elevators they're building now are probably capable of doing that because they're not building the big um dog houses on top of the roofs for the elevator equipment very to keep it now in the shaft and stuff so that Technology's changed but from the get-go if you've not planned this if you've not put that size that equipment and had your designers look at that that's going to be a real nightmare trying to take care of that another problem you're going to run into is your Area Refuge uh I work on a lot of plans every day and one of the things I'm seeing in all of the plans is the requirement for communication equipment for the area of Refuge what that essentially is is um it's a designated spot where somebody that is uh not capable of moving themselves they go to and there's a box on the wall and they hit a button and if somebody doesn't answer it downstairs within a few seconds it dials out and and calls a monitoring station so that they can identify where that person's at so that's another thing that you have to be thinking about when you're talking about retrofit again if you're in the middle of construction of building one of these and you haven't taken these things into account the biggest one biggest start starting point is going to be that fire pump the ability to get that water up to another level and those are some of the logistics that I see when you're talking about doing this especially for your retrofits but again if you're under construction and you're putting in your your you've already ordered your equipment you may not be able to do this at this point this is something that you really have to see way down the road and and started from the get-go on the design okay very good so we put all these ideas on the table and there are more to come I'm sure uh and I'm reminded that one of the uh Pub owners came to us and gave us a solution one time we were struggling with Pub parking and restaurant parking and Meg walked in and gave us the solution and we got that solution from the uh business owners and it occurs to me we before we do a lot more work on this we ought to hear from the uh the hotel owners or the large structure Builders either as another meeting or added testimony or or just a workshop and had them invite them to it yeah I mean so I've heard I've heard multiple people now have mentioned more education and hearing from more experts it seems like something that we should follow up whether it's another meeting or or a workshop or just something to make sure that everyone's a little more educated on the topic is that right picking that up correctly yeah I think we ought to have a workshop with the theme of the workshop being further education about rooftop amenities and then more education about uh fire protection and the shelter and all that stuff just so we get all the ideas out and all of us thinking with it a lot of time sorry yeah go ahead please a lot of times um person to pull on is the guy that wants it most yeah if you got somebody coming in here wants to do that come tell me how you think you can get it done and then you know you explain it to us we get our people in construction fire code and look at that let them solve their own problem yeah and they will they'll uh they're very good at it want about oh yeah I mean these people want it so I think I think if we can set set up a date I think they would be willing to I think it would be nice if or helpful if we could have people with new somebody that wants new construction but also someone that's indicated they'd like to make this change in an existing facility so they could say how they might think it would work we're hearing stuff that's you know going to be pretty rough to change Mr dicki that the that Kyle into into the record from John the developer who's uh under construction at Imperial and ason right now they're doing put City passesin time under construction he still has time to so he would be a good one to hear from he's kind of in the he's kind of stradling we also have another hotel we with that is at the um end of Challenger it's just north of the uh carpet the old carpet place going north out of town they are uh getting ready to start putting their plans together so that would be a hotel project that is just getting underway and they want this the they've they've talked to us about wanting these these amenities so that would be a perfect example of somebody who is now getting under construction and we have talked to some folks who already have hotels up that want to look at retrofitting so I think if the board is interested I think we can Pony up some uh some real walking talking uh developers who can can address these uh some of these questions how about Tom harmson he's Tom harmonson I should say Heron he's a hotel your Bob Boger Bob Boger those guys have helped us in the past to solve some thorny issues so two more names sounds like it needs to happen fast though was that sounds like it needs to happen fast though this Workshop situation well I know that they're chomping at the bit to get to get going uh so I know I'm sure I'll hear tomorrow how to go last night so I'll be in touch with these people very shortly don't let yourself getting get Steve Road we don't get we don't need to get steamrolled into a big effort that we didn't used to have before tonight yeah we work it as we need to work it and I don't think we need to work it at the imperative of somebody's I got to do it now agreed yeah I I think though what we're hearing is there is consensus on the board to to put together a workshop um so we can do that we can see if we can do something like that maybe in April um that would give everybody some time to get it on their calendar to include potential speakers so we'll we'll we'll shoot for sometime next month um Renee will work with the board maybe we can even do it do we have anything planned for the TP regular meeting date the fourth Wednesday in April do we have anything on the agenda already for that if not we can it would about March are we doing I'm sorry I said I'm skipping a month thank you thank you s we've got a workshop U conflict situation that Rene is working right now all together on the next uh we'll work we we'll get an invite out to the board maybe it doesn't we're typically supposed to meet on the second or fourth Wednesday of every month so can pick one we could potentially do it as early as the second Wednesday of March the talk is going to go out now as a result of this confence tonight people want going want to know about it what did you talk about what what are you going to do about it what are the next coming actions and this will at least give a uh message for the public that yeah we we heard it we review it favorably and we're going to Workshop it yeah and this will be a public meeting the workshop is a public meeting it'll be a public hearing it'll primarily be staff speakers board board will be the main participants um but uh the chairman can certainly open it up for comments from the public um and uh can the board can receive comments from the public um you know there'll be another there'll be additional opportunities to when the when an actual ordinance is brought to the board um there'll be a opportunity for the public to respond then as well as When It ultimately goes to the council if something does progress that far so there's there'll be plenty of opportunities for public input yeah these names that we talked about harmonson Boger and the others Kyle mentioned we can ask them if once we settle on date if they can make it or at least send rep yeah let's I mean if if if we can kind of get a count right now what what is the second Wednesday in March the 13th that's pretty that's pretty do that's aggressive yeah that's in two weeks oh it is two weeks okay yeah that probably wouldn't work so if we can't we'll um I'll put it at least four weeks out yeah well just know I'm out of town on the fourth okay Wednesday of that month okay it may be the second Wednesday in April is there a conflict if we did say the first Wednesday I don't think so I mean that would be I don't what was would week matter though at that point right yeah I mean I I know we've met in the past on other than the second and fourth Wednesdays of the month I don't think it's a charter requirement but um but we can potentially look at maybe the first Wednesday in April well does any do anybody have any like blocks of time in April that that you will not be available John you're a world traveler you're going to be gone in in April nothing major plan okay we'll we'll uh we'll we'll see about lining up our speakers and then we'll uh we'll get some dates out to the board to see what works for yall Renee what are you hearing about the council Workshop that we're talking about earlier I um we discussed this earlier so I will follow up with the city manager's assistant she's still working with councel on a date okay have to work it okay we got uh we got a plenty up get that the knowledgeable people together and workshop it we don't know when yet but it'll be at a set date and that'll give us something to tell the public interested parties out there that'll that they'll want to know okay anything else before we go to the next uh topic all right hearing none let's move on to our next agenda item to uh discuss Liv in Work Land Development RS and provide oh before we move on I want to ask about all this uh make paper that Kyle so kindly provided us with all this information it's a Kirkland it's a mixture of Kirkland requirements for their upcoming uh consider ation of rooftop amenities as well as I guess some of his own a work interspersed with it and so I got to looking at it and I said to myself uh what do we got here and then I said back off it's it's a list of ideas and it's probably too much information at this point but I included the whole memo just I thought it was about right it was a lot of information and it was more than I wanted it to T to sit out with and then I made myself do it and then I said okay uh Crank that in and and then I listen to more yeah I like that you can see the thought process when they write the memo of why they're doing this you know using the rooftop as an amenity which is similar to you know what what we're wanting to do they're trying to get ahead of the situation too they got some great views out there I've been in that area yeah it's gorgeous I have traveled extensively around Seattle and Renton and and places like that because we had a lot of shuttle contractors in that area so I was out there a lot beautiful area all right any other thoughts hearing nine I'll move on to the uh live Work Land Development R discussion and we'll turn that back to the staff and let you lead us through the summary and the ideas sure so I hope you guys liked open discussion because this one is similarly kind of broad at this point um as you're all aware and you played part in this the mixed use ordinance uh number 10-22 3 was passed recently we got word back from Florida commerce that uh they had no comment so uh we are officially have adopted this mixed use language um and with that um one of the policies stated that city council May adopt land devel velopment regulations to allow quote live work units or quote live work space in commercial and Industrial zoning districts which allows a building or spaces within a building to be used jointly for commercial and residential purposes where the residential use use of the pace is complimentary to the primary use as a place of work so um yeah so we really just wanted to kind of lay a a foundation for what for what you guys think of as as live work um really just kind of defining what exactly that means because I know it I included different definitions from different municipalities it can mean different things to different people um and then you know if if we want to get into some more depth um what would the approval process for a live work unit look like uh how many live work units are permitted on a property Gets In The Weeds a little bit but just kind of kind of starting to feel out what what our live Work Land Development regulations are going to look like because um we have a lot of people that are pretty excited about it and um we we actually have a lot of uh places that are ripe for it I mean they've got the perfect setup for it so um we we just want to get the ball rolling but like I said it's pretty broad at this point and any ideas you guys have please we'd love to hear them well this this is an important that we do here because it's getting uh such that the uh the service staffs and the working people uh can't get to work traffic's too thick and too far so it's time it's it's time for that to happen it's it's already happened in well Europe's a good example in Germany in particular they have uh places inside the hotels where the staff can live and be there and don't have trouble getting to work and traveling in from outside but it's still they still have problems so anyway anything we can do to help the uh the working guy I live closer to work is is the right direction I believe uh we're just let's uh I have one question if I was a hotel and I wanted to have my staff come in and live service staff come in and live in an allocation of rooms if I had them and the business is not so good that I can't spare the rooms you know that's that's an idea I might want to just put the the St but then again they don't each room I don't know what amenities each room has to have and stuff like that I don't I don't know I just threw that out there that's mud against the wall we'll see if it sticks uh guess we could just open it up again and see how we feel about that and what ideas are there Nancy start us off you got anything or shall I go over here to Daniel he's he's got a lot of ideas so we'll use him I would just be kind of paring some of the stuff these last two pages were really helpful um and and that's really what I was using and looking at because you know everybody has to agree it's a great idea um and I come from a large urban area where we actually had a lot of that going on too as New York City and they had to you you have to make room for people um so I can't add too much of it other than this was really helpful I'm for it I think we just need to take a look at it but I don't I don't think it's going to be a terrible effort to do perhaps I'm naive no and Anthony uh came in couple weeks couple three four weeks ago and told us about the uh latest legislative requirement which uh is putting pressure on affordable affordable housing so it's a it's a uh it's building into a tidal wave and we've got a chance to get in front of it I like this little uh chart that you put together had the uh definitions of the live work units in the different towns around us that was that was good information uh Daniel start us off what do you think you you what do we how do we need to weed into this this kind of animal can take on a lot of different shapes um to begin what what kind of you say you've had interest what types of properties have been interested in in this uh existing buildings that they want to convert or they they have a little extra land on their property that they want to expand and maybe get some residential out of or do they want to have their staff I what what are you actually getting a feel for kind of all of the above I know of at least a few places that had uh correctly if I wrong but they had living quarters set up you know already in there which wasn't technically allowed but yeah like they're they're ready for that that's happened a few places or else um just people calling about it interested in the idea of it because you know people like Lamar is saying people need to be able to live close to where they work and it's very hard to do you know on on service wages and so you know that's that's becoming more appealing and it's becoming more common I think in other are areas I know KOCO Beach um their their Ray baldino photography I believe um has a live work unit situation um it's just seems to be uh more and more common as as people are expanding where residential can be built and kind of merging that commercial and residential in the same district things like that um defining that residential space is real important yeah and it's and you don't want it to fall over into the Flop House Zone exactly you know and you get everybody in his brother stuck into this room uh that doesn't that's not my idea of what we want for live work space right um and then the other extreme is okay well you have to C by code to build this portion of your of your project as a residential coded space um you just have to have the room for that and to run your business so that's I I think it's another one of those compromise situations where you um but you got to Define one one part of it first before anyone knows which direction to go and what while you're were talking I thought of a cority if some dude walks in and says I've got this extra land I'd like to develop for residential for my business should we have a requirement people living in those quarters work in the business that that was just what I was going to say because I can just see this drifting where people are going to be building it and saying that and then renting it out for $3,000 a month yeah that's where it grows is yeah homeowner says man I I've got space for two more rentals now U and and that's not the intent of this I don't believe I pict in the Arts communities and art uh uh districts that I've seen where this really works well you designated a certain area and live work artist communities uh boutiques things like that that really enhance a community um they're all you know they're in that mindset they want to live and for that and there are businesses around town that uh that already have live work spaces and they're working quite well I'm not sure how that works but up at the warehouses at at the corner of Central and North Atlantic there's a set of warehouses in there on the north east corner and I believe the proprietor lives on that property yes and we gave a special exception to do that and proprietor for the warehouses over by the post office across the street from the post office we was above that business and I think there's someone living over over the kelus business uh I don't know how or why what that means but I think somebody's living in there and maybe I'm mistaken but here's a story I had to go over there one day for a set of carc left said the car keys in the building I went over there one morning before they had opened I couldn't find anybody on the premises the back door was standing open to the parking lot so uh was fear and trepid trepidation I walked in and announced myself loudly hoping that I wasn't coming on the crime scene and it just looked like somebody was living upstairs it just looked like it but all I'm saying is it it's there it's already in town and different places and uh it can work seems to be working where where they doing it so yeah it it I think it's an idea that we need to encourage that way uh John you're you want to say anything about this well the question that I have is is the city aware of of where live work situations exist now and if so what are the requirements for those I mean our code only allows residential in commercial areas under very specific tightly controlled approvals and those are through a special exception and those are for um like I'll call it a Watchman or a a maintenance person on uh like manyi warehousing units yeah that's the idea with warehousing storage anything other than that to my knowledge is not allowed by code um currently and we we have we are aware of that occurring um I'm not going to name specific properties but it's occurring around the city and when it comes to our attention we we address it I mean we're not aggressively going out there looking for it um if it comes to our attention will deal with it um but that's that's really the reason one of the reasons we're here to talk about this and that's really the reason that the language got into that policy is because we know what's going on and from at least from a staff perspective we're not we're not saying it's a bad thing I think we're saying it in with certain conditions and certain situations it could potentially be a really good thing um but I think what I'm hearing and what our concern is is that we just need to to make sure that we um put some um bumpers on the on the outside lanes and so we don't get too far a field of what our real intention is here of what we want to accomplish and that was the purpose of posing some of the questions in the agenda cover is you know what what group of people do we want to help um um what don't we want to see happen and and that'll that a lot of that can be through simple definitions um adding definitions to the to the ordinance um is there any correlation or I suppose that's the right word um our last meeting we talked about affordable housing coming in now we're talking about live work elements is there a relationship there they're related but I don't know how they are they're just and they're uh what's the word I'm looking for it's obvious that they're related we we just don't know know yet yeah I mean I mean I I think the i' I've I've heard I've I've spoke to a number of commercial business owners mostly in food and beverage it was particularly acute during covid but they just could not get people they could not find people and the people they had they were fighting to keep and the people trying to come in from the mainland onto the beach were having a heck of a time cuz a lot of them frankly don't own Vehicles they have to rely on public transport and they just don't have a lot of money to pay for fairly expensive places to stay and so so yeah these are all these are all ways we as a city and I've always said and I'm sure this this board has heard me say that the city can influence thing what happens in one of two ways Regulatory and financial and this is this is a this is a a regulatory way that we can can hopefully ease the burden and ease the cost on on affordable Workforce housing um do we need to ask the uh business people again to come in here and give us guidance on this what do you need what are your needs how would you implement it how can you implement it what definitions do you need that to me would be a big question question how does that benefit the city what's what's that how does what benefit the city having providing Workforce housing yeah so for example what comes to my mind you go to a resort and you see all these service people at the resorts that have name tags on and they said have their name and where they're from none of them are ever from here right you know uh and and I'm not I'm not saying that's a bad thing or a good thing I'm just curious about how all that plays into how does that benefit us I mean how do how does the city bear from that well it benefits me if I walk into a restaurant and I don't have to wait an hour for help because they don't have enough service staff okay the key to a lot of this is what we don't want is guy an owner of a property taking advantage of this new animal because they want to build a little rental so I guess one way to do that is is somehow we tie it that owner whatever space you're renting to this artist or this restaurant if they want residential it has to be a part and parcel of that business you have to rent rent that to someone in that business who's working for who's working so so you know I can picture you know these warehouses down the road there's the owners living above now but they go well now I have the abild let me just go ahead and put a second floor on this all these I've got all these businesses down below but now I have work business I'll just rent out all these things above no you're going to rent that warehouse number 342 and uh residential 342 as well you don't get to split those up so somehow we have to tie the uses of the two together so that can't grow into a wild animal yeah and from a staff perspective that's important because it's I don't want to create a system where it's impossible to enforce you know we have to go out there and audit tenants and where you were I mean yeah it's I think it's important to accomplish what you're suggest sugesting but I we just need to kind of think our way through it before we yeah well I don't see how you get out of that if you're going to regulate it you got to enforce it oh I agree yes so a live work unit should have a CEO when you co that that's your opportunity to make sure that you have all the things there for it to be a proper residential proper living and a proper business with a CO that would work for your live work I saw a lot of that you can tie these together through construction as well meaning that if you are going to have a work live space your Ingress egress has to go through this business this has to be tied together so if you're going to go upstairs and live because you say you're a work live space that owner whoever's down below you let that you're going to have to have whoever you're Ren to above or supposedly going to be you come through your business all the time at night so you kind of stop the not that you there still there's going to be some regulation like you say but you may be able to do it by the the construction uh yeah yeah this is not a New Concept I mean we're we're certainly going to reach out and educate ourselves as well as how it's done it's done all over and so who who pushed this how'd this get on our agenda this was something that we've been talking about for for a while so um we included it like Dave was saying in the mix use because it's been uh something that's happening and we want to legitimize it and and find these you know these other places like Orange County I'm looking at attachment 3 they kind of address some of these things that we're talking about um and I think it it does help Foster that you know small now you know tight-knit feeling and you know cuts down on commuting and um things like that so it's been a long time coming I think we're we're just kind of staff is kind of excited about it do you have any feel um say from your counterpart in coko Beach how many of these situations they have and the problems that they've met I don't know the number but but I do think judging from this that I need to do more research and come back some more information because I'd be curious to see if if it's just flowing carefully or or whether you know I can just oh I think of sometimes with these things and I love the idea of having something like this I really do but um we were recently for the first time in 40 years able to get something through our HOA and it was a 28 day residence for E airbnbs do you know how many friends and family we now have so so they're not they're not part of the rent everybody's related to everyone else course you're right there's always Loop them yeah so I I don't know how you regulate we don't have enough people to go out and look but I'd be curious how Coco Beach does it another idea about this is we started the economic overlay District you know one of the concepts that we looked at we were buildings with businesses on the street level and living exporters above them so where's that at right now I'm not aware of anybody that's come in and implemented such concept yet but we've got it on book yeah it's I'm not aware of it being legally done except there's there's a there's one or two around the city that have got special exceptions or that one of the things oh go ahead one of the things that comes to mind when we talk about this is that we're talking about staff living above the business I don't know how this could be done but there's got to be a way to to regulate the price that it costs those people because if you have servers living upstairs and they're paying an exorbitant amount of of rent they're not going to be able to afford it yeah or they'll end up some of my kids who live in very urban areas San Francisco there's four or five of them and they're together and they're all paying a portion of the rent that's how that's how it works um but yeah I mean that I mean that's a whole other can of worms we're talking about rent control um um and that's we can't do that Flor I don't know Anthony that's uh something you may want to respond to outlawed so in the industry there's usually a lot of turnover right and I think I'm hearing that everybody wants to restrict to be the owner or the employee you know know living up above I think that's what I've heard so now what do you do if an employee gets fired and it's living up above how does how do you handle that got to move out yeah I mean I I'm not I don't I don't mean this to it may sound I I don't mean it to sound like it may sound but I mean we've got there's there's City issues and there's ten tenant landlord issues um and you know I I think we need to definitely draw that line yeah and stay on our side now what what is tenant tenant um landlord issues is you know I think we're we're talking about some of these things tonight yeah um and so that's really those are policy decisions to a degree some legal legal issues but yeah we have we can we can we can kick kick anything around but I think that' just be my only comment is that we probably my my recommendation is we stay on our side of that line and the board gets to determine where that line is so if you're housing your staff you have a lot of Staff turned over then you got a lot of rent turned over it's a yeah I created problem I had I had two kids out at Mammoth Lakes big ski resort area up in uh um by Yos they were living in yo uh Mammoth Lakes housing because they were they were employees and when they stopped working there Mammoth basic I'm not they kicked him out that's kind of unceremonious but they that's essentially what happened they they were required to leave um so it's it's you know it's that's that's one one way one private Corporation handles it well usually when you're in that situation or it used to be you'd say okay as part of your employment you get housing but that's as part of your employment so if there's an agreement there once your employment ends your housing ends but you're back to then how how easy is that going to be well that's easy to enforce you just write it up in such a way that a portion of your housing is subsidized because you're working for us right and if you're not working for us anymore you lose that subsidy there's a lot of very good questions that we'll have to I think you're right though it falls back on the owners and yeah you know absolutely kind of like this whole parking thing we just went through if you're willing to take on that burden and you make it happen then that's your deal but we have ways of watching this a little bit and we don't want to yeah I mean honestly a lot of the ordinance not a lot but some of the codes that we have in place we really their enforcement is not something that's front and center when we have a specific complaint about something often times that's when we'll look to our ordinances do we have an ordinance dealing with this oh yeah okay this has been brought to our attention we have this ordinance we can enforce that um so yeah to your point yeah as I've said before zoning is an experiment zoning is an experiment start out with the concept and you drive it around and you live with it and if it works and the main idea being to help everybody live together so if on this live work situation my thought is if the can put in place allowances I don't know what they are all of them are yet but we can put in place as allowances or live work units but that becomes the owner's burden to manage you want to do this the city will look kindly on it it's your burden not ours I don't know how we can make that work but that's my thought even at that there' still be some code enforcement that we had to be about right well the other question is if you're going to have staff living on the premises is it going to be a comination for a family is it going to be a combination for a couple singles living together I don't know how those things work anymore I don't know the industry well we we have definitions of I mean we've got to be somewhat careful um we have definitions of a we actually Define the term family in our code and it's not I mean maybe 50 years ago it used to be mom dad and kids it's not that anymore I remember that exactly it it's it's can be I think our code says something like two or more I don't even think it has to be related anymore maybe two or more unrelated people living in a living in the same unit or something like that but it's we're trying to find ways for people to live together that's called zoning and some things are best left alone anyway uh yeah I I certainly don't want to tell people what a family is just leave that and be uh living quarters is make make them allowable and make the owner the these are just broad ideas make the owner responsible for managing it you want people to live on the property be be available then you manage it we'll we'll allow it but you manage it yeah I I think we really just need to determine what what our intent is here what what are we trying to accomplish and if it's and and that can really guide us as we're putting these allowances and I think as you use the term Lamar um well we're trying to create an atmosphere where owners and uh and service staff and be together on the property so that's a that's a a Workforce housing solution is is is what I think what I hear you saying and and is that is that what we want to limit this to or do we want to expand it that's that's for this board to talk about and decide it's t it's not easy yeah that's why we made you guys talk about it yeah um you know I I I I I I I can I GNA guess that we probably don't want to create further op opportunities for vacation rentals yeah I I think I think we're safe in saying that but um yeah we've already got that yeah yeah but but my point is is that I think there's things we know we don't want and now we're trying to Define what we we're trying to accomplish here what we do want I don't know that we want it we need to figure out how to allow it again this is just a piece of philosophy I want to share with you that it's hard gained over the years you can go home at night dispirited after these discussions because you don't know how we're going to solve it I in the world are we going to deal with that and what I counsel you to do is take the attitude that we're talking about how to make people help people live together better and we just haven't solved that yet so therefore I'm not going to go home and lose sleepover it I'm still working at so that's where we're at we're floring where to go with this animal and we don't know where we're going yet that's okay that's part of problem solution you have the problem you have chaos you have all the ideas Bubble Up the best ideas stand out you grab them and go and then try them out and modify later anyway uh philosophy in a bucket so we want to allow people to live on the pr premises but we first thing we would have to do I guess is Define that was a good idea Define a live work unit and it's pretty well done already in that Matrix so that's a starting point I'd like to hear what the own what the business owners have to say about it the C the the people that need employees that have to travel to work every day and come into town every day and leave every day I'd like to hear from them okay what what are their needs what do we need to address we don't even know what we need to address I know I think we can Wrangle up a few okay so is that is this something we want to just continue to our next meeting do you want to have a separate workshop on this item as well I mean how how do you want to tackle this I don't think we dare combine the two have workshops we need to have separate probably not yeah well we don't need to be piling up workshops uh we could probably just have a come in and talk to us at a at a regular meeting okay Mr chairman I said one one additional thought I'm talking about the workforce housing how about a contract with the city contract or or basically an agreement with the city allowing you to do this and these are the circumstances that we've set forth for that yeah I think what you're I think what you're describing is like a development agreement I mean we do enter into development agreements with with with developers um on a semi-regular basis I don't know Anthony is that can you condition zoning approvals or or attach or apply development conditions to a like a in this case a live work unit authorizing a live work unit or units and and do so through a DA the intent following the attent intent of what was set forth so would that be different from like a special exception yeah Ian it sounds like a covenant would be just like they have deeds and Covenants on private HOAs and and we would do so be kind of like a it's a regulatory requirement that the city would impose okay and can enforce that would be like a recorded we could record that you record it against the land yeah like on the live local issue um some communities that are approving live local are requiring a covenant a written Covenant um hold the uh Builder fee to the fire regarding the affordable housing definition of maintaining what at least of the units for oh there may be something there something like that I've done accessory dwelling conditional uses that impose a covenant to make sure that the accessory dwelling is used just for the authorized purposes and nothing more nothing less yeah we might be able to do something with that think like we're getting into two different animals here and live workspace there's the classic and I keep going back to the art community where or or the boutique owner that they that's their business that's their building and they want to live there they don't want to have to go back and forth and travel now I don't know how many situations we're actually going to get in where you're talking about a bunch of staff that you're trying to house that that might not be that places right now that you could even put more than three staff in on your property unless you're coming in here saying okay now this is allowed let me go take that piece of property I own over there I'm going to do a bunch of boutiques or I'm going to do two restaurants and and this and I'll let those guys house their staff that's different so we've got two different things going on here one of them is true live workspace and one of them is are we allowing staff to live on my business's property that I don't even live on I may just own a business over here and I'm allow that guy I mean I own a building over here I'm allowing that restaurant tour to lease my space and now I'm G to allow him to have his staff up here that's not live work space that's just allowing living and working together I I think we need to kind of make sure that there's the distinction there good thinking and that's going to be thing we need to do is Define it Define it that's exactly what I was getting ready to say that's for this board to do exactly what you're talking about is to decide what the intent here what is the yeah what is the policy push where's the need who's who's where did this push come from was something we generated ourselves to be get in front of the uh tle wave there somebody actively pushing on if that person is pushing on it then maybe they know the solution yeah no it's it's not something that we came up with this is something that in the 10 years I've been here we've I've dealt with this a numerous times about property owners I can think of two perfect examples sassy spoon if you know where that building is right up here by Cumberland Farms there's a couple of residen units in the back um yes not supposed to be there they popped up but they're there so there's been people living in them uh another one is right by the VFW um um just north of Cumberland Farms that single just south of VFW between VFW and Cumberland Farms there's some rocket gy yeah the old rocket gym used to say the old rocket gy yeah there's some there was some opportunity for some residential in the back there some beautiful it's cool space i' I'd love to live in there but but and we were approached with with that concept and we just have to say no not allowed um so and there's others um so and it's it's it's hard I mean it's hard to with with a neat idea like that it's hard to say no turn somebody away and so um that's why we're here talking about it if it's just allows for diversification in the businesses that you have along the main road out here you can take some of those little strip centers and if you might entice an owner to come in and buy one of those and not put a smoke shop in but want to do a a boutique is sort of thing and then put their little residential piece to it which broadens the diversity of our community great the mean and smoke sh well I like I like that thinking that line of thinking is probably the way we ought to go in the beginning yeah I I don't think there's I agree with what um Daniel saying is that there's probably not going to be a lot of businesses in the city that are going hey I want my employees to live here on property there may be some I'm not saying there won't be but I my experience in the 10 years is there's going to be more of the hey I want to buy this building and I I want to run my attorney office out of it and I want to live upstairs or live in the back I I'm my experience is there's going to be more of that kind of a situation that's good stuff well honestly that was what I was thinking when we came up with this idea months ago that it would be the owners well okay have you uh heard enough is this enough to go on uh right idea I I think we heard the good idea was somebody that wants to start a business and maybe lived with it yeah and it it sounds like I'm I'm I want to say I want to kind of nail this down just this one thing so let give us a little direction is it sounds like the majority of the board the consensus is is that the focus of this live work concept should be the more of the what we just discussed about the the the the owner living there rather than yeah well I think you're talking a lot less regulations a lot less having to make sure that they're abiding by the rules it yeah the enforcement and the administration would be a lot easier but we'll do what board wants to do but it sounds to me like that's what I'm seeing nod heads nodding and that going in that direction it's it's the right way to start waiting into this I think just don't let them lease out any yeah you pretty much did it right there well I think I think you just said it it's a nice way to ease into this and get our feet wet with it and then maybe later on expand it to employees okay we'll learn new things Well what we'll do is we'll go back and do a do a little bit more homework on where what others communities are doing and maybe next time we get together we can maybe put a little bit more flesh on the bones um and and kind of just continue our conversation if you got any ideas for ordinances that are needed to help that bring them forward we'll do yeah appreciate you guys mulling it over those are good questions that kind of help us know where to go they're good MERS this is a good group let's see what else what other treble can we get into what else have we got on the agenda here anything nope I think that's it I have I have one comment Mr chairman okay tomorrow night I hope hope to see everybody at the board appreciation dinner um that's going to be up at the Rison I think it's starts at 6 o' 6 okay so it's it's something that the city used to do we got out of the habit for before I got here they stopped doing it but I think this is really a neat neat thing and I I I hope I hope you can all make it so and one more comment I have I just got the thumbs up from the city manager on this I've been thinking a lot about this lately now that we've got a good board very functioning very well I want to make sure we as staff are doing a good job in supporting you as a board I'm I've got a meeting later this week with a few staff to talk about a survey I'm calling it a board survey and I want to give you individually a survey that just kind of picks your brain on as a as a board member what you like about it what you don't like about it what how the presentation are there things in the presentation that you like don't like things you'd like to see that you're not seeing same with the staff reports so this is really just kind of a temperature taking of the board on things you like things you don't like ways we can improve um both from board on the board side of the Das when you give me a survey like that you're you're giving me a piece of homework that I got to do I got to sit down and think about it and I got to be nitpicky okay and I don't want to be you don't just give us I don't want to be we got we've got a good thing going here why I mess with it I I agree I I think we have a great thing going here totally agree with you Lamar I'm you know maybe we could take it from Great to phenomenal I don't know but if let's wait a little longer yeah you I and I we don't have to do it if if the board says now we're all good you're doing good okay we won't do it from my view anybody here this this we'll take that I I what I've seen is things get get what what the staff provides to the boards over ye over the years has progressively gotten better um there's much more information um there's much more interplay yeah there's we have a whole lot more that we can prep with you know and that it didn't used to be that way I'm not talking about anybody in particular it was PRI it was prior to you the city now at this point in time has the best management I've seen in all the years I've been here and it start and it starts with Todd he uh he's the coach and he set the tone and he uh he's coached hold staff to do the work we do and I I don't see any reason to tamper with okay but I commend you for wanting to get suggestions on how you can improve well say that again I said I commend him on trying to solicit ways that they can improve and things they're doing great on I I like that I don't want you to have a homework and have to worry about you know nitpicking or anything but uh I think it's great that that you're trying to solicit information from us for improvement and and from my viewpoint if you uh want to talk to the staff about any thing that you are concerned about just go do it make an appointment and then we got a process it used to be people could floater in floater in free float in out of the city hall and give orders and edicts and nobody knew so but we got a good system now it's control you go in you check in you ask for an appointment you go in the office and you deal with it so we got a good system if you got a bone under a bone of contention make a meeting with with Mr Dicky and go talk about it and then you can tell me later or or not I hope you didn't take that the wrong way I didn't mean it to what so one of the thing you know Lamar and I have been here Lamar's been here forever they built the City of Cape canaval around Lamar no they didn't and and I've been here I've been here Bob H Bob H okay and I've been here a while uh and I look in none of the other staff members have been here they don't have a lot of tenure so when I made that comment what I'm saying is over the years that I've seen been here I've seen a lot of changes I have I've seen a lot of changes and uh I have gone home sometimes upset oh I see and sometimes uh but lately not for the last I'd say the last four years I've been in this business about 30 years for the last four years it's it's been good and I I don't go home dissatisfied anymore I see a lot of people working well together and addressing issues and doing the best they can no the staff makes our job a whole lot easier I mean it's obvious that you put in a lot of time and effort to make sure that we're prepared for a meeting and we appreciate that I'm new to this type of thing it it seems to be a nice system from my background one of the things I look for in any process is efficiency guys seem to bring a lot to the table if there is any room for improvement but to in lie of the survey I would say um I hate things being pushed off to find out more if if there's something that you guys have got your teeth in you've been digging at it for a while and you have an idea that there's these people that are interested in that I don't know how it's done but a little more proactiveness in bringing that to the table the night of the discussion would save a lot of time I know that's probably difficult but you know there's examples of tonight if you had a couple that could just get up and say well we were thinking about this I know this is only discussion but if we could do that it might save some Workshop times it might get us further down the road more efficiently they have ever encouragement to bring forward anything that they want to talk want us to talk about yeah so it's just stepping into the public a little bit more in from your side because you're the ones that'll get exposure to all this you're the ones that they're coming to and saying hey we don't like this we'd like to do this I don't know how that works in a system like this over the years it it works like this when the public feels threatened or dissatisfied they'll be here yeah I understand that once the issue is brought up I'm talking about a city trying to be proactively growing and wants to do do certain things to help the city and as a homeowner I have an idea you know nobody's brought up any problem or anything but I've got an idea that I'd like to do this they they keep coming to you all of a sudden it becomes a point of agenda because it's been mulling around for a while those people are still there they're the ones that generated this when you talk because you've mentioned a couple three times tonight where did that start it started from people come coming to talking to them about that situation and if there's enough of them to create a Synergy then there's enough of them to come in immediately to fill us in a little bit more what are you thinking about that and our time can be more efficient getting that information right off the bat from the horse's mouth I I think in the past they've been pretty good about it yeah I they probably have and I just you know like I said I started with I'm new at this and I'm not sure you know tonight was an example of something that uh there's no Title Wave behind it we're just we're having a a good new discussion low pressure uh no pressure discussion and talking about it before it happens so I'll just respond briefly to that I don't want to keep everybody in you later but yeah I mean it really depends on the issue um I mean and I think Lamar really hit on it perfectly if if there's not a huge sense of urgency if there's not a Title Wave is Lamar put it I generally my past practice has been to let's just touch base with the board and get an initial reading from the board on what on if if what what direction they would like to go and I certainly got that tonight and I accomplished what I was hoping to accomplish tonight but so but if I so so it really depends on the issue if if there is um a lot of urgency to it we can certainly and we will we'll we'll keep that in mind as as we move forward if to make it more make our process more efficient I hear exactly what you're saying so thank you yeah tonight was a good discussion good night I'll go home feeling good I have gone home after having an armed Deputy in the in the in the room to keep order in past 20 years ago we had some real issues in this town we fought a war over density and and other things and it's in the book read about the density War it was vicious it was uh it was a bad time so we're not we're not there now we we're past it all right what else anything you have anything okay Anthony looking down the board and I'm not seeing any discontent so uh let us be adjourned