let us come to order Renee would you call the r please Denny here board member general core here board member Miller here Vice chairperson price here chairperson Russell here board member sharp here board member stoud here okay um board members thank you for being here and we appreciate your service we don't tell you that often enough uh but we do we appreciate you this is one of the better boards we've ever had um without further Ado then let's uh take the next order of business and look at approval of the minutes for uh Mar February 28th and I'll just ask you have those minutes are there any additions or Corrections Mr chairman I'd like to recommend that we approve the minutes as written is there a second there's a second thank you so we have a motion in a second and uh for approval Renee would you call the role please I'm sorry who second I did thank you board member Denny for board member J cor for the motion board member Miller for vice chairperson price for the motion chairperson Russell for board member sharp for the motion board member stra for the motion I'm getting the homework out of the way all already usually I forget to sign those things at the end of the meeting they're signed all right we've done the approval of the minutes and we're going to move into uh the item two on the agenda continuing in discussion on allowing exception to the current height requirements for certain rooftop uses and provide staff direction for a future code revision if necessary um it's going to be an interesting subject and I think we got some folks here here that want to give us information and opinions uh otherwise and we'll just work work it and see where we go we do not have to make a decision tonight we're uh continuing to investigate this and hear information and think about it um I I took the data pack that we have and read through all the good collection of data that we have about height regul regulations and additional impertinences on rooftops and uh different cities that have uh done this or want to do it and we have the information about their approach so I walked around and I thought about it and I thought about it and we got all this information about how to write a statute to regulate the uh rooftop use and what's allowed but I guess what I want to what what I came down to is how are we going to do this how will the hotels implement it how will we reach agreement and what'll be allowed and how high is it going to be and those are the things we're going to talk about um I hope the board members will be uh very aggressive Ive about asking your questions tonight we want to get a lot of information it looks like we have a good group of people here that want to address it but uh we'll uh turn it over to the staff and let them take us through the uh approach go ahead Kyle hey good evening everyone it's been too long um just to briefly recap the meeting that we had back in in February we talked about the rooftop uses and also the live Work Land use regulations um I think what ultimately came out of it was that we should have a night like tonight where people developers and members of the community people who will be impacted by this can come and speak and discuss and ask questions and you know we can have kind of a conversation about um the best way to do this how we want to do it um so that's the the purpose of tonight is to kind of discuss it and go after it sort of like we did the parking requirements um and come up with something that we can bring back to you guys so um my slides tonight are are a little repetitive from from last time but I think it's probably useful to kind of just go over it again then we can um depending on how you want to do it either discuss and then call people up or call people up after we can we can kind of decide as we go but um yeah I can go to the next slide please Renee have you got slids yes I do is it is it not on your screen okay well take us through what you have all right so we're looking at uh what are we looking at here so this is a just a cool picture of the city I think but in general this is um this is kind of a rehash of last time but but just to kind of go into it again um we've had a lot of interest in doing these rooftop uses um rooftop observation decks um restaurants and bars um rooftop gardens really a lot of different a variety of uses that have come from not only commercial but a few Residential Properties have asked to but mainly commercial um and so we've talked about it between staff and um this actually is addressed in the most recent International building code um they have a an article I don't know if it's their journal or or something but they have a whole article that discusses it and how it's being addressed in the international building code so um it's being addressed there it's being addressed by Canaveral fire rescue they have um you know guidelines and and they're comfortable with it so really where we hit the snag is current city code requires that uh you know let's just say 45 feet just to keep it simple 45 ft Allowed by right there are limit there are height exceptions um things like water tanks solar panels um elevator equipment um not intended for human occupancy and that's really the important part is not intended for human occupancy because that makes it very um not very hard but impossible to do you know an area of Refuge so an elevator goes up to this rooftop you know obviously when it opens you're not just going to open onto the open air so you need an area of Refuge I believe is what it's called and um that's intended for human occupancy so that is not included in the height exceptions um so that's kind of where we said well we can't really allow this um but we've had so much interest in Cape canaval really is one of the best places you could you could do it um we have such a a unique position where we can watch these rocket launches and I think the next slide actually has a picture from oh no it's not this one but pretty soon there's a really cool picture um so a couple of the approaches that we discussed last week um well first do you guys have anything to add at this point all right so a couple of um different options we discussed last week um adding the height of it so these these are a couple of ideas that we can kind of Bandy about but um adding the height of an elevator Lobby or other accessibility options as necessary for ADA compliance to serve as a rooftop use um adding language to permit additional height for a rooftop use specifically um and you know have it like with height above 45 feet in the uh overlay is permitted with approval from the community appearance board um you know we talk about doing something similar to that um or you guys uh leave the code AS is um and that obviously would mean we wouldd have to work within the current guidelines so say you know you have a six-story hotel you're going to have to do a step back and have the bar restaurant in that so you know obviously we have to have the option of of not doing it but um I think we want to kind of try to work with work with this um can you go to the next slide please oh I'm Sor that's Hotel Melby I believe yeah um additional considerations um we may want to limit the locations or land use classifications so limit it to either the overlay District or commercial zoning classifications um certain conditions some such as uh we talked about last time rooftop restaurants and bars open to the general public um requiring that or requesting that um and then kind of an obvious one but don't want it to be overlooked all structures on the rooftop such as shade canopies seating areas Etc need to be properly permitted to ensure wind speeds can be withstood in addition to other factors um it's kind of a a no-brainer but wanted to include it anyway can you go to the next slide please so this is this is the picture from the um the northern most Hotel currently under construction um so I mean it's probably about a little over 65 or 65 ft exactly um just to to give you an idea of the type of of view that one would have um it's a very nice picture and then I went on the the roof of can never remember which hotel it is those twin hotels that were built relatively recently and um I went on the roof for for a drone demonstration or they were doing you know taking pictures and it was it was really incredible so like I said we have a very unique opportunity here um obviously whatever we talk about we're going to have to really discuss and make sure that it's what we we want to do and it can be you know it's been done before or you know what you know legally defensible all that so um yeah I mean that that's really at this point all I have um if you guys want to discuss it a little bit and then call people up or call people up and then discuss I think what we'd like to do is talk it among ourselves here a little bit get some ideas rayon and then include the audience in have them come up and uh and and and interchange with us and and do it that way great and it doesn't look like we have an enormous crowd so we'll operate uh sort of easy not too formal we'll get as formal as we need to depending on how Rowdy everybody wants to get but what I came down to is you know you could go up to 65 ft with the proper permission or you could go use your existing 45 and use the existing rooftop with mods and Engineering but you got to have the elevator and the stairwell entrance and exit and the fencing around the rooftop and all that and then you then do you allow a restaurant or you just say hey you want to come up watch launches maybe have a beverage Service uh oo and all and talk a little bit and leave it doesn't have to be one of those places that is really full service that's one approach I'm not neither for or against that I'm just throwing it out give us something to talk about do you allow these uses in existing hotels they come in they get the opportunity to come in and modify the roof if you modify an existing roof to do that you got some work to do some engineering mods that that's could be pretty hefty it dep depends on do you really want to do it what's in it for you how much profit can I make I don't see a lot of profit in rooftop viewing but that's just me I don't know the business um willing to listen to any ideas so I thought I'd throw those out and uh ask you uh Nancy do you have any any thoughts or questions you want to throw on the table for us well I I would like to get some more information I had a a couple of things I guess I think it in my mind right now I think it should be in the overlay District um I think that that would be the right spot for these places to be and I do think it should be open to the public not something that you know if you're doing a um private hotel or a private something I think it should be open to the public and and more people people could use it that way and if it's open to the public then the hotel or right high-rise structure has to provide parking or bicycle space or walk-in space or Uber drop off I don't know how you do that yeah I know well we're back to with with the parking here we're in such a bind anyway that I'm convinced people just have to learn to use Uber and you if it is a restaurant they don't they don't need to provide any parkings and I also actually do want to clarify Lamar what you said reminded me many of the people here tonight are with hotels that are currently under construction um and they've provided engineering already in the case that this is approved um so that just gives some some context here so the the Hilton Garden in and the um which is on um Imperial Avenue and the Hyatt which is the northern most pretty much right when you're driving in sure everyone's seen it yeah we'll have some good questions for yeah how about you John you got anything well I just want to start out by saying that I'm really in favor of rooftop usage and I think it should be um you made mention of it being uh temporary usage uh in my mind I think it could be U full-time usage for restaurants bars hotels um uh in terms of the considerations for uh rooftop development you know there are things that other communities have dealt with in terms of elevator height parit walls those kinds of things and I think we can work with all that stuff uh certainly public parking is going to be a concern and an issue uh but that's not really our issue it's the developers issue should be um and so uh I'm really looking forward to see what you folks have to say because I think it's exciting I think we can make a lot out of this I've got this idea that if we if it's open to the public and it should be uh you they have to have a place to come or how how to get there you know we we dealt with the parking around the bars and pubs and we asked the pub owners and bar owners to come in and talk with us and they told us that they really didn't need parking regulations their customer can they can walk in they can use use Uber they can bicycle or they can drive their car and hope to find a place and if they don't then they go somewhere else I mean it just so they recommended really to let it solve itself so we agreed to recommend that to council and the council decided to uh go with it uh all the while broadcasting that this may be a print temporary we may drive this around temporarily to see how it works and but we rever reserve the right to come back and visit it and so far it seems to be working I've heard no uh or uh adverse feedback so let the uh the owner solved it brought us a solution the our neighbors worked with it so maybe that's a way to go do approach this let hotels uh have some sort of you customer you can come you're welcome but you can find your own place to park or don't park or ride in or bicycle in so anyway there are different ways to approach it throw that out for your uh thinking else John no you're good how about you sus well I also agree that uh it should be open to the public um I think that we should have uh if somebody wants to modify their existing hotel for our guidelines I think we should let people modify it and then um sorry Nancy I don't agree that it has to be only in the overlay District I think there's a lot of other properties around here I don't take it personally okay that I think it it would do good so I I think it's exciting and I think we can get through it all and uh I think we should go for it well we have a good group of people here that can and agree to to disagree so we're good at that uh okay anything else Su no I'm good how about you uh Steve um this is one of the hottest new types of uh enjoyment around the nation now especially through the southeast this is happening everywhere they're very successful in most places if implemented the right way um I think we are an obvious uh choice to have this type of element into our community uh um everyone keeps talking about the hotels but it's not only the hotels that can benefit from this it's not only restaurants and bars we're looking at a lot of properties here that have the mixed use that we're going to be dealing with soon and elements of this sort to top off the entertainment and social aspect of those types of projects is just Paramount for a developer to to have in his um Satchel of goods when he wants to make a successful project um there's obviously a few things that need to be worried about structural Integrity zoning permits that you have to work through to make sure that it's it's just done the right way height limitations height limitation access and ESS uh utilities and services uh design Aesthetics uh and for the developer cost uh and return on investment right most of this though is their problem not not ours I fail to see the return on the on investment uh a significant return on investment but but see I'm not a businessman that's why I'm not in business and if there is a a good drink should go for it yeah um that's their yeah problem as well they know that business um if they fail there's still a place for us to go up there and watch the launch right I you know let them win I'm I'm all for them winning um so those are that's kind of the general concept I have is we're just sitting waiting for this we just have to do it the right way um I keep going back to there's more than just this there's a lot of big stuff coming our way in these mixed use projects and if we figure this element out it's going to make all those other uh pieces and parts work out and we're gonna have more people coming to us saying yeah maybe I will give that a shot because I do have this element I've got five of the nine things I need to have um so let's give them a shot see what they can do we agree to dig around the fern and see what we can cultivate yeah how about you Michael well I agree with what everybody else has said too I'm excited about this because I I agree with you that with our mixed juice coming into play here this is just going to add to that and and we're very unique um place I think it should be open to the public and I think it should the existing building should be able to benefit from this also I want to hear from the uh existing hotels how they would do it with an existing Hotel I mean what how how they would go about it that's going to be a piece of work take a existing roof and add what You' got to have to have a foot traffic and elevators and and I agree that we got to do it the right way right we want to do it the right way how about you uh Steve hey I'm all for the idea I think it's a great idea um anything new that's coming to town has the ability to be able to do this in their early engineering phases I'm in support of any adjustments we might uh consider to make to uh get the right height so that uh these things can be done but my concern is is I think this is a bridge too far for existing hotels uh just the laundry list of things that have to be uh studied uh starting off with engineering reviews can the structure uh support what it needs to what we need to be able to put that up on the roof uh we've got to have stairwells we've got to have restrooms uh at the top the elevator has to run that far uh these existing hotels have a lot of equipment that's already up there that uh doesn't provide for the space to be able to do this uh I would love for somebody in this room to come to us and say hey I've got this idea and I think this is what we can do to make this work but uh there's a lot of stuff to be considered uh your San you know fire I'm in the fire protection industry I've been on a lot of roofs I've done a lot of flow testing that's the easiest part getting the fire protection up there uh to set something up like this but man I think about the sanitary the electrical that you're going to need up there there's just a whole host of uh engineering challenges to be able to do that somebody that's building right now that's already got some plans got some engineering he I think this is a fantastic idea and I'll support it I'm interested to hear whether the hotels will take uh you know you got to have the uh the 150 units so and everybody says well it takes my takes all the stories I've got I don't have that spare story to uh to allocate to Rooftop so then I'd have to use a fifth uh half five stories in a six story to be rooftop yeah or you're going to have to give me a gimme a real gimme to go higher so yeah we're going to talk about all that it's not going to be simple but we'll uh figure out how this area has a lot of good Engineers one one other thing I wanted to to bring up was uh was we talked about the public access to it uh I've been on properties and I know a lot of people have been to where you have access control systems that are part of the elevator and that's what allows you to get to the roof as a hotelier I would believe that you want some kind of control even though uh we're saying public be allowed to be able to go to these amenities on the rooftop uh I believe the hotelier still needs a level of control so he knows who's going up there and has everybody gotten off that roof at the end of the evening and such so uh there are ways to work with that that's right there simple there's Simple Solutions to they can designate launch today stewards and to direct traffic and and give access and and uh directions and and and yeah temporary access cards just you know a check in check out just but it is it is a solvable situation yeah well okay uh I'll go back and forth here one more time see if anybody wants to add anything before we invite their our visitors our public in to uh educate us can I say something here as we move forward on this do we need to have the board agree that we all would like this to happen if we can work our way through all these challenges well okay can we do something as simple as that say we want this to happen I have heard that we want it to happen uh that we're all in accordance but if you'd like to have it in the form of a uh a motion on record that's easy I don't see anything wrong with that that that's that that's that's a baseline we've started we've got this we want it now let's work through it okay we'll craft a motion for us and uh and we'll uh put it on record I'd like to make a motion that we approve the addition Andor new construction of a rooftop amenity with various approved uses in our community okay do we uh and you can do a better job than that than I can that's a complicated look let me put it this way if you're going to have a a complicated motion with a lot of details first write it down write your write your own version on the spot there yeah no I I agree and and I I'm not used to doing this if someone can come up with a simpler way that this is usually done let let's go for it or um I'll do my best uh you're you're looking like you've got an idea Steve no okay a simple that we definitely want to pursue this and we'll look into it and the border is in favor of further investigation I could word it a little bit of okay well let's have a motion that says we recommend that the board pursue Ways and Means for rooftop observation and that's it that just says we're willing to investigate it doesn't say We'll approve it or disapprove it we want to investigate it I I'm I'm a little confused aren't we here because that's already a direction well I was asked for a motion well it I just wanted to make sure that we're all on that I know we're here for that to study the the height extension really not necessarily the uses I I was under the impression so um I guess I can be say that again you were under the impression what well we're here to talk about uh extending the height uh and the uses of this so I didn't know whether we need to um just make a definitive Baseline statement of that we would we are all uh going to move forward with uh uh the attitude that we want to make this happen so however that is stated or if it doesn't need to be stated if everyone believes that we're already there that's fine with me I want to give the public some confidence in moving forward well I'm hearing like to do I'm hearing and they've heard that we all are uh in agreement to pursue the investigation this is an investigation not a decision making we're investigating Ways and Means to do this right and if we can't find it we won't do it I mean that's the way we've always operated mhm okay uh David I've got some Su I've got a quick suggestion um I I think we hear consensus from the board that this is something we want to pursue and we're very excited about it that's awesome that's that's that's the big First Step um I think in order for to help staff generate what we were proposing is that we get direction from the board we go off to our Corner work with Anthony prepare an ordinance bring an ordinance back to the board draft ordinance the board gets a chance to look at it and chew on it and and do whatever it is you want to do with the ordinance hopefully approve it at some point before before we start crafting ordinances though we need to craft approaches what are we going to allow AG what do we lack in the first place to totally agree and I think that the the really the direction that we need from the board in order for us to do our part of this is to focus on this slide right here that you have in front of you and it kind of gives some options and some direction that we need as a staff on on helping us craft some language it's really more of a a policy philosophical question on what does the board how does the board want to approach this is it is it a permitted use um with specific conditions that they have to meet is it going to be something that is approved uh by the pnz board or the community appearance board at a public hearing um is it um you know there's a few options spelled out so I think we just need I think that's really what we need it's just some some policy direction from the board on on how um how the this this will be approved and um what will be approved and then we can we can take it from there and we can put together a lot of the a lot of the nuts and bolts and details um but that's that's some direction we need give that direction we want to hear more yes definitely all right I'm going to go to the public now you know we had I have a card here for that's listed as public participation for non-conforming prop properties uh we didn't I didn't cover that correctly in the uh we can address that between between items if you want to do that between items well let's address it when we get down to the last part reports an open open discussion I just don't want to make him wait too long I mean if he are you okay never mind yeah we can do it that way all right let's call that individual forward now and uh and address it and uh and we'll have done with it reports and discussion no we can do reports and discussion works if that's what you're suggesting we can we can wait until then okay yeah then it goes to reports and open discussion uh all right let's open with John Ro roer yes sir did I say it right yes sir come forward and tell us who you are who you're associated with and uh go from there absolutely I'm John roer I'm with Kaizen companies we are the uh developer of the Hyatt Place which is at 9119 Astronaut Boulevard right in front of country in there uh we're also a part of Oliver companies which is the company that owns and operates the hotel behind it as well which is the country and in Suites there um and we are a developer of hotels and we operate hotels and multif family buildings throughout the country um Kent Oliver is kind of the one who started the Oliver family Endeavors and uh he's been in the Titusville area since the 80s and he built uh that country and sweets in 2005 2006 is and we've owned and operated that one ever since they've always had the property out in front and they've finally wanted to move forward and build something else so I do want to thank everyone for having this discussion and inviting me to be here and being a part of this discussion and uh and kind of figuring out how we move forward with this if you decide to move forward with it so uh we did start looking at the hayatt place uh right before covid and started Divi uh designing a building there on that parcel and then got put on hold for a couple of years and during that development we looked at the rooftop options as the ownership group has liked that idea we have a couple of others in other places in the country they're not on top of the building they are lower so we don't have the exact uh means that we've gone through in this process trying to get to the answers we need and especially with you folks um in the past so we're working through this as well um we did do our engineering for this building to include a rooftop observation deck that's what we were looking at and we've been talking with Kyle and David and uh the city for quite some time and that is where we did run into the roadblock I think as Kyle did mentioned the area of Refuge because when we designed it we were not intending to completely build a restaurant up there build a bar up there it was It was kind of to take advantage of watching the Rockets launch and things of that nature as it's such a unique opportunity and fol point that we have here in this area so um that was our intent um and then also with that maybe some shade structures and whatnot so we've kind of designed our building to be able to incorporate that and hoping we can work forward with the city on on such a thing that you approve an ordinance modification to allow for that over height for those area of refuge and and whatnot that may protrude above for sun shade or things of that nature um and I would like to comment on one thing that I have heard a lot of you folks mention um is open to the public and I and I will say that our operation team is all for that as well we definitely are I think one of the challenges with dealing with Hotel franchises for quite some time will be a whole another bunch of hurdles we have to go through to get that approval from the franchise to open it um so that may delay getting that open um however once again we do want to get it open to the public I'm not saying we do not want to do that it would probably be another process we would have to work through we do have um all of those things as uh the board has brought up as far as key cards things for our elevators so that we can control who can get off on what floors their key cards in the stairwells things of that nature so we've Incorporated all those things I think we've been trying to incorporate what we believed was going to be necessary from franchise from the board from the city um and we've been trying to work through those processes uh and I'm not quite sure what questions you'd have for me but I'd be glad to answer any of them or discuss anything further that we've been talking about oh are you thinking about a structure that uh fits within the high limitations already and you can still meet your uh obligation to provide the required number of of rooms to be a hotel and stuff like that yes sir so we we that was the challenge we had we had to modify our building from what they call prototypical high place to ad rooms on the the first floor to keep the 150 required rooms um but to do the observation deck we are on the roof so we would be with that area of Refuge extending past our required height or the required height requirements in that area for the overlay District so we would need this modification to go through allowing for the additional height for the area of refuge and any sun shade or any other coverings we want to put up there yes sir so I'm just curious uh what would you have in terms of ideas or recommendations of ways to go about um facilitating this as far as how to compose an ordinance modification no no okay well yeah I I guess I'm I'm thinking more structurally um you know how what I I don't even know how to ask the question I let it percolate a while and yeah okay yeah and Steve you got a question yeah I just wanted to get this out to the folks in the city and and and the board about an area of Refuge this is something I'm confronted with on a daily uh a daily situation with plans and Area Refuge is a place that's been identified by the engineer and agreed by The Authority having jurisdiction it's actually pretty dog gone simple it's usually a point on a a given point on a floor and there's usually a dialer of of type for lack of a better description that allows them to hit a button and say hey I'm up here I need somebody to come get me and that's what the Area Refuge basically boils down to in the event that somebody doesn't respond to it at the front desk uh it times out and it calls uh a monitoring service and it identifies where they're at and the kind of help that they're going to need up there so the area of Refuge is a pretty easy thing to solve the biggest thing is is to get your uh the ahj uh authority to you know identify that spot and and agree with it typically it can be at a stairwell or could actually even be at an elevator Lobby uh which is which is what I'm seeing a lot of on plans and stuff so um one other thing uh that I that I would be concerned of is the uh hurricane ratings uh and anything that you put up at that roof uh uh if you're currently under construction so you have the ability to do some things that other folks don't uh that have existing structures out there so that that is of a concern being able to bolt stuff down so it doesn't blow off so yes sir anyway that's all I had not ready yet okay nothing wrong with that how about you Nancy you your questions we may come back to you um have a seat and we question oh another question um when you're talking about the usage and it just being an observation you guys see it as strictly an observation or are there any minimal services or what what was the intent there it is our intent to have a beverage service up there yes we were incorporating basically a very small bar area that could serve uh alcoholic beverages and or just water sodas and whatnot since you guys have done is that what you typically find that when you have rooftop situation like that that it really is more of a service there there's not a restaurant up there it's it's a it's a bar that that gives out drinks and it's there's not much more mechanically involved in that uh for our intents and purposes of our operations team we we don't really we're not restauran teers so that isn't our our expertise um we do have hotels that do have small you know diners in them whatnot but usually we leas those areas out when we have restaurants in our hotels uh so for us we thought that that would be a good option for beverages being it's hot out you're going to be hanging out up on that roof deck you're waiting to watch a shuttle launch or just enjoying the view from up there of the port or the Banana River um we thought we'd try to incorporate something now will that bar be operated all the time probably not I I think it will be certain times certain events key word key word here I want to plug in event oriented it' be an event oriented type environment yes sir but while you were doing the analysis and the performa for this being that it's not a a large service you still found that it was beneficial to do the uptick and and cost of structure and all these other elements to make that worthwhile I I can't say that I'm the one that crunch trenched all the numbers but our team did and they're the ones that thought so it it I wouldn't say that it was strictly just the uptick from selling Beverages and uh consumables it's the actual ability to attract more people to your hotel with the ability to go on to that rough so that so the extra cost was worth it correct whether it's a sunning everyone goes up there to Sun or to watch a launch or just have a drink it's worth it okay yes sir okay now we'll let you uh take a seat and we may come back to you thank you uh thank you let's see next I have a card from u mckibbin j B McKibbon come forward uh tell us who you are who you represent and share your ideas with us evening uh council members so JB McKibben with McKibbon Hospitality were're a 100-year-old family business that develops owns and operates hotels throughout the southeast so very excited to uh finally get to plan a flag in Cape Canaveral um since I joined the family company six years ago I've wanted to be in this market um huge demand driver you know is the port but uh for me SpaceX and what's happening Kennedy is my generation's Apollo program so it's incredibly exciting to be a part of it um a part of the activity so we're developing the Hilton Garden end and uh really our program is a rooftop viewing platform there's a small Landing to to uh keep our elevators dry weathertight and then really a corrugated steel platform on the roof with all the appropriate life safety provisions and egress means but it's really pretty Bare Bones and we've done quite a few rooftops um that are very elevated but based on the city's zoning we did not want to put forward anything that was robust that looked like a seventh floor of density uh but something that's really pure amenity and to allow Our Guest to take you know participation in the really amazing things that are happening in Cape Canaveral while they're on their visit with us so our ideas for operation is really it's a ticketed event that doesn't mean it's for charge but basically we would have someone that stewards Folks up for Access Control methodology rocket launch is not a incredibly long ordeal depending unless they scrub the launch or they delay delay delay but we'll likely have TVs on the lower floors so people know when we're getting into that launch window Y and it's really to get up there you see the launch and we put our robust FMB programming on our ground floor and outdoor space and the idea is that that's where people will want to spend most of their time but this gives them the opportunity to go up and get that great sideline view uh for the short moments that that are the launch uh for financial aspects uh there really is no Roi in our proforma um it is a pure amenity if we had to take it out it wouldn't kill our project uh fortunately in my position I get to do things that aren't totally profit driven uh we'll make enough money on the hotel and uh we have enough room in our budget to do something I think is really interesting and that our guests uh will be inspired by and appreciate the fact that we had that thoughtful touch and you know that will be their thought of cap paveral and hopefully we'll have him back out for whatever may bring him to Market uh to our property so that's that's it in a in a nutshell happy to answer any questions I have a question I don't I'm not I just want to be sure I'm understanding will this just be for launch events in other words it's not going to be something that people go up can go up and watch the sunrise or the sunset um it's just going to be closed until there's a launch event or some other special event that's that's correct so really event driven really launch driven we've got a lot of equipment up on that rooftop we really don't want people wandering around that unsupervised our regular guest and our elevator Access Control you know uh and stairwell controls you're not going to be able to get up on that rooftop unless we've unlocked access and in my mind we have an employee that's up there when we're bringing people up and when we're taking people down and then we're re closing off access to that space so it is very event driven because we don't want people wandering up there and doing who knows what just like we wouldn't let people on our roof in a typical Hotel operation so okay seeing nobody itching to ask an another question we'll ask you have a seat and we may come back to you and let's see my next part is for live work units that's another genda item okay okay does anybody else want to talk about rooftop observation uh have a hand back there please come forward we'll have you fill out a speaker card when you're done all you can do it afterward go ahead and yeah I'll fill it out for you it's done all right I know this guy uh go ahead Art thank you I'm uh Arthur burer local guy been here 40 years and my vision is a little different from the gentleman here we're have been uh building in this city for 40 years we last two years did 31 jobs with SpaceX we built the ajt building with a curve roof the one with the blue roof and the white columns we did that renovation for Bill ma the end of Imperial we built those two buildings out there and I'm just here representing myself right now we're in the process of the where the Tai Thai restaurant is renovating that building I sat here for a year and you guys did approve the mixed use we are submitting plans within the next two weeks to put 10 apartment buildings on the second floor the first floor we renovated and got approval the ti Thai restaurant we built the kitchen in such a way that we can handle a upstairs observation restaurant obser bar the whole bit we have an office building we got permits uh Dave called me two weeks ago and ured that the permits we're in the process of doing now is for a local kind of grocery store coffee shop you can come you put the balcony in the front ride your bik walk your dog whatever and that's in the Mist right now our l longterm plan is a five-year plan because we're not a big Corporation and don't have endless funds is we are working on putting another Plaza behind the building where we have the storage facility which is the lay down yard then we are planning and have already done some soil samples on a twostory parking garage over the entire complex making all the fire codes and separations and everything we're been working on that one then over top of that we're putting two stories of Condominiums are applying for it now that you've got the mixed juice those are going to be pretty nice Condominiums the 10 apartment buildings tie TI's already asked for two for the work and live uh we redid the old Straw Hat we're uh is now the ask uh center training center for the port authority we're doing some more work we'll presenting there but on that one the executives there or one of the managers it goes back and forth from norways ask can I get a unit can I move in tomorrow so it is doing what you were intending to work we're also hoping the same thing on the last two floors we are planting 38 Condominiums they all have nice balconies swimming pool on the top deck and also on the top deck on the south end we'd like to do a really nice restaurant kind of uh we want to tie it into tie and ey we're working with them and exterior elevators around the perimeter on the parking lot so we have plenty of parking the fourth floor will probably be parking a lot for the owners that own the two condo sets we also know that FAA just approved in Washington the battery helicopters so we would like a little Landing Pad because they're going to be the future the Jetson kind of saw that that's coming I mean like it or not 20 years away it's coming and people will be able able to do that the trains coming here and we would like to have a really nice thing totally open to the park public for entertainment question is the height ceiling one of the major issues you gentlemen are going to have to deal with and ladies you need some real height we don't need uh the whole thing to go up to another 16 ft you need a high ceiling 12 14 ft like your lobbies and stuff your AC ducks we've talked to fpnl thanks Zach over there and we've been looking at trying to get some panels for the ceiling top that are also enclosed so you have kind of a see-through type effect and that's the plan that we have and it's uh honestly it's going to take me five years I figure and maybe seven but that's what we en visualize in the city nothing wrong with that you can work as as long as you want to as long as as long as you're within the code there you go well we'd also like to put a garden up there with nice trees and just have a really nice top area the pool though would strictly be for the people that own the condo I'm curious about the ask building yes uh is there any uh notion in that organization to have a rooftop observation they're Associated closely with the port that might add in to what things they do that's one of the hardest jobs I had to do that was the old Straw Hat Will Nelson played and all kinds of stuff there was so much smoke in that building you had to gut it back down to the walls we had to put Scapes suits on pressure clean do what we do yes to your answer those people have vision and we'd love for Charlie pinak to sell us a lot beside but they would like to do things and uh they are working on a piece of equipment that we just started on the engine engering because of the ship height which is roughly the new ship coming in uh the MCS I think it's 248 ft and you can't get the lifeboats for the captains and everybody so they're putting the Escape shoots and ask as got to do the training and we've got a piece of equipment that we're designing right now so they can go up and do those kind of drops and they're also uh when a helicopter falls in the water I guess the wings propelling it twist over we're looking at building that for them and they want another building on the other side of the pool and they definitely want an observation and they want it for their people it's that would be a private one well if we're clever we'll craft an ordinance that allows the uh rooftop utilizers to build it and manage it as they see fit we've heard one uh presenter that wanted to have a very simple uh Arrangement just go up watch the launch come back down and keep the uh rooftop equipment undisturbed that's great approach good approach the other one is has have a full restaurant okay we're we're going to hear that so it looks to me like we'll uh work with David and the staff to craft ordinance that accommodates these things and then you manage the way you want to manage it manage your franchise requirements your uh management requirements your per own personal requirements business requirements so we're on our way the thing that we would like or I would like I guess to say it is to have the upstairs to be able to be capsulate it you know not the entire upstairs but to be able to sit down in a restaurant the weather's nice open the doors when it's bad and stormy still go go out there have a drink have a nice dinner see the port the ship's coming in and out and the launches I mean it it's phenomenal you've got we've got the best area and we've watched it grow even U the river and seeing things you'll have all those views and just be able to go up there and have a drink or just go up there and have a nice dinner okay well some people want to watch sunsets and some people as we heard some managers watch the launch clear the decks get out and others want to have an amenity to use your round so we we're going to keep talking and as far as it making money I don't really know it it looks to me like an amenity that is desirable whether it makes money or not is just what happens what else art anything all right anybody have any questions for art he's a great Encyclopedia of knowledge about building around here and uh and new ideas so keep him in mind I had the pleasure of serving with Lamar for eight years in the board and got educated okay enough of that uh who else anybody else all right now I'm going to hold these for the next topic anybody else want to talk about the rooftop anybody have any questions about further questions from these wonderfully informed people okay I just think it's obvious that this type of thing coming in is is in demand and these are just the few that have been lingering for a while there's a lot more I think that would will come along that will be equally as good as these or are even better and more versatile I'm glad to see this sort thing generated okay now let's have a chitchat among ourselves uh open to the public of course about what kind of uh direction to give the staff and the approach we'd like them to uh take I like this chart here that had adding the height of an elevator Lobby all that stuff you need as a permitted height exception uh adding language to prent additional height specifically for rooftop use with approval from whoever and then leave the code AS is requiring developers to work within the existing Land Development regulations that may be a way to go or at least we we can go down that road and see if it works for us but leave the code as is and then we would Implement uh changes to accommodate the uh rooftop activities uh I can see your gear is turning David or Kyle uh what do you think of that approach the the last one so leave it as it is leave the code AS is um well let's try it this way start out with the code AS is as your as your sheet of paper you're going to color on and see how that works and then see what changes you got to add to it or make yeah yeah I'll I'll make a comment on that I mean we've we've had five or six years of these guys trying to make the code work as is and we don't today we don't have any rooftop uses up there right so I think that that is going to be a code change right I think that informs us that the code is currently written is not can they do it yeah but they're going to have to give up some some of their a half or a portion of their sixth floor to to to to Rooms or so they're going to be losing rooms and we have a minimum requirement of 150 so you know something has to give um so my own that's my only Point current code doesn't seem to want to facilitate rooftop uses I guess you've been educating the people that come in and talk to you about our uh hard knows approach about the 150 rooms yeah that that question usually comes up um um why 150 and um well it comes very simply for five acres required and 30 units per acre permitted M 5 times 30 is 150 and that says if you're going to be a hotel you got to mean it you got to be a big boy and you got to come in and have the pocket Deep Pockets enough to build one and run it because we don't want a whole bunch of small hotels coming in and turning into little uh living living arrangements later we've already lived that life we went through that 20 30 years ago we're done with it so that's where we are now you got to be a big boy and you got to operate a nice facility uh enough said so so you're going to um I've said I think I've summarized the approach that you want to start with I'm going to ask the board if they want to add anything to that I'm I'm not sure that they can work with with it without it making extending or putting something in that we can go higher I think I think we need that uh I don't see how it's if they if they do your way then or the way we're talking about then they're going to lose rooms and if they lose rooms then we're not going to let them do it so it's a you know I think the whole point of this really for me was do we allow that exception they're going to have to comply with everything that we can think of but I think we should we should do that modifying that code I I agree with that I didn't mean to exclude I didn't mean to be exclusionary I I I'm say existing code as a starting point right but I I see what we got to change to get there okay I think I I guess in my mind and I'm not saying I'm right but in my mind my the premise is we're going to have to do it so let's start working from the beginning with it but there's people here that maybe would have a better idea than I well I I mean I'm looking at this picture and I have a question and maybe somebody out here can help me what I see there is a a parit wall that is dressed up a little bit and there's furniture out there and that kind of thing my question is is that parit wall common I mean does that fit into your common design does that fit in to the height requirements and all that kind of thing and so what do we have to do what has to be done to take that configuration and make it so that it can be used as um a gathering place I'm going to I'll I'll jump in first on this I mean you're not seeing the entire roof obviously you're just I understand that and I don't know anything about that kind of stuff seeing a portion of it so what you're not seeing is probably the elevator yep um the elevator uh equipment and and room and all of that other stuff I'm sure that there's some type of an enclosure around the the the uh the um elevator there may or may not be a um a bar it may be enclosed it may be enclosed partially all of those spaces that I'm just describing are currently not allowed in our so I maybe you've been there I've been to the Sky Bar up in Titusville yes on one mhm and and you're right I mean there's an elevator that goes up to that floor and it's it's enclosed and shielded and all that kind of stuff um but basically and there's a bar sitting back and all that kind of thing um but basically the seating area is much like what we see right here yes and I understand that you know mechanical stuff is going to have to be considered and hidden and all that kind of stuff but it's there anyway I mean the elevator has to come up above the top floor so the elevator car itself can get to the top floor right so I mean the shaft has to go up above the top floor so that's already a consideration right right so what what do we need to do to make all that pre-existing stuff fit can we go back to that code section code have a we have a draft in our package tonight that addresses what John just brought up the the apperences and protrusions above the height that would be allowable so those that list has got to be worked through yeah I mean right now you can see the bottom of that page you can see what how our code currently reads and it says it's limited if it's intended for human occupancy it can't can't be there currently under our current code and we're looking at changing that and that would be the language that would be the policy issue we would have to deal with is that human occupancy um um item and the associated changes that go with it yeah and an we'd have to work closely with Anthony in the in the U Building Department dep and the fire department cuz they all have their uh respective hooks into this issue requirements yes requirements that's probably a better word um and they have their own codes that they have to deal with and satisfy so um um yeah they they would all be very involved in coming up with this new language that we would bring back to the board um at the end of the day but uh but this is uh this is where we trip up this language right here in front of you on the um on on yeah you'll have to draft some changed MH language yeah and isolating that from you know sectioning things off or something I don't know but yeah and we'll we'll have to we'll we would I'm I would imagine we would restrict the type of uses that would be going on up there if it's the board's interest to allow for um I'll call them gathering places or bars or restaurants or observation decks I mean the we can we can limit what what is allowed and is not allowed on the uh on in these areas um well we started out the main driver was a launch observation from a high elevation and you just operate from that principle you don't have to be go crazy about allowing everything in Under the Sun up there some things maybe you going to look at and recommend we don't go there that is that is within the board's perview yes now my next question is um you know you've already got a lot on your plate with this uh live work uh that we're going to address next and and and of course refering the overlay District requirements that can continue to come mhm have we added is this a big have we added a big load do you think this is a large heavy load or to to unravel this and turn it into code I I really don't think that this is going to take a lot of of code revisions I think it will be very straightforward um you can create a draft and and work with Anthony and and get it get it yeah to reviewable form and bring it to us and we can chew on it and send it back okay we can swap it back and forth do we get it right sure I I think my my main question left unanswered is what what is the the vehicle to get this approved is it a um do are we going to is the board would you be comfortable with just having it as a permitted use and um if if it was a permitted use we would attach or we could possibly attach conditions that they would have to be that would have to be met so all that would be required is to come in and get a permit and they go out and build it they don't have to go to any hearings and all of that kind of stuff that's one option the other option would be okay anything above 65 ft um is going to have to come to this board and this board has has to review it what's being proposed uh there would be a public hearing and um you know I'd have to we'd have to work with Anthony if that would ultimately have to go to the council I you know I'm not sure but uh but would there I guess the the the choice is permitted by right or permitted through public hearings and and approvals of a board Andor councel that that's a that's a policy question I would like to get some direction on from the board because that'll really help us as we're drafting this language well you've described pretty much the way we do business we we recommend code changes MH we can make code changes we can recommend them get them approved and then they become by right vehicles I mean anything out of the ordinary of course has to go to the council for special exception so M I think what I heard you say Lamar is that at least the initial draft you'd like to see it permitted by right and add some conditions is that I is that anything out of the ordinary would have something out of the ordinary would have to go to a board a public hearing type of an approval process well we want to leave our elves uh and that is the way we we want to be able to uh take advantage of uh good ideas that are brought forward by our smart people it may be something we haden't thought of they haven't thought of yet they get to working with it they see something that they want to try so yeah let's leave ourselves a leeway to take things up to the council for special exception do we have a pretty good idea of Hotel guys if if you're having to build the 150 room Hotel per our demands and you were to put an extra floor of whatever uses but most likely observation bar restaurant what extra height are we talking do you have an idea of what that would be because that's really what we're talking about is what is that extra little bit above and beyond what we do normally that's a good question and what we would want to do is permit them the ability to do that I guess by right so it's a simple procedure stand by um okay [Music] uh you can take the floors you got and not have to put an extra floor on there to use the rooftop you just add the engineering to change it for utilizing the rooftop that's kind of the point I'm getting at is we're not you allow the elevation shaft we already have a list of stuff that can go above the uh well I think I'm just trying to make that point is we're not talking about a whole lot extra here yeah to get this done yeah which would make sense for it to be just a permitted use based on here's what I think we're doing that's the simplest way to go I'm not 100% sure I got that that's the way we like to wind up but if we have to as in the past we'll take any good idea forward as a special exception yeah I mean if somebody's really want to do something as I said earlier if if if the board's decision is to allow this by right what we would do is we would add we'd come up with a list of proposed conditions or development restrictions or regulations whatever you want to call them yeah working with the community to get them acceptable to all of us so we can all live with it right right and that would be one of them definitely would be hey okay 65 you can go another 15t can't can't go above 15 ft or whatever that number is for whatever you have to do to be able to make that meet our codes if if you have to then that may be where oh you need to go to a board maybe I I don't know yeah but something like that okay we drive it around M and see what you get and bring it to us and we'll have another good discussion and then invite our smart people to talk with us was correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the the the height restriction primarily at least initially set up for the sake of the beach yes not so much for the A1A overlay District right but for the sake of the beach am I correct I have according to LaMar's book that is the history we we have the zoning planning zoning board has always protected the beach line and the River Line Rivers Shore great for the public for for the uh domicile livers right 45 ft so that everybody could have a fair shot at the shoreline the beach amenities Shoreline the river amenities without having to fight through highrises and people have asked us for years how did you keep that in place well we just did it we zoned it 45 ft along the shorelines and then we have the 65 ft in the whatever it is in the overlay made Provisions for it yeah that's that's the history for it okay so I mean that that may not be as major a consideration in like the A1A overlay District right because it's not we're not talking about Beach no front or anything like that no now it could be that somebody with 45 ft of Beach property a Beach property of 45 ft height might wants to come in and see if they can get a rooftop amenity on the 45 ft they have uhhuh and that's where the uh well I mean there's already restrictions there in terms of zoning you're right and and you can have well let's do it this way let's have them look at it yeah tell us what the considerations be yeah we've we've allowed as a staff we've allowed in certain situations I call them widows Peaks or whatever you want to call them Widow walks widows yeah um that depending on what they want to enclose their roof with um often times we we the ones I can recall right off the top of my head we've only allowed a real thin piece of cabling several strands of it to kind of um create a a you know an area of well if they want to have a parapet roof they could use a parit is the enclosure it it's my my point is it's been you know it's kind of been on a case-by Case basis what the building department has been comfortable with because we do have we have some language in there that what is allowed above the the max height so um I'd like to ask Anthony if um he's heard enough tonight to work with staff to come up with some language for the board to to consider at a at at a next their next meeting or the subsequent meeting is there anything that any gray areas that you'd like to flesh out a little bit or are you are you okay enough information enely clear on is enclosed spaces because what you presented is rooftop amenities and the the information in your package talks about roof roof limitations on rooftop common rooms Y and you know I think it's relatively straightforward to allow an amenity you know as long as they have to put the obviously a 4 foot probably a 4 foot barrier around the rooftop and then your amenity kind of much higher than that mm so there amenities now when you talk about the elevator that's probably a separate category but the rooftop enclosure looks more like another floor yeah yeah that's another floor and and fleshing that out a little bit for get a little bit of direction I'm not saying I guess I'm not there I don't see providing that this amenity and then putting a roof over it you've added another story you gamed us and I don't like that it it's got to be open air that's the sentiment of the board going back and looking at it from the perspective of amenity rather than enclosing the entire roof or substantial portion of the entire roof that's I think talking two different uh ball games well I think uh what we've given the D board direction is take the code AS existed add the amenity and the restrictions and bring it to us I don't see adding rooms or enclosed rooftops I'm not there yet maybe we'll get there I'm not there yet the only enclosed area correct me if you guys are viewing this differently is the elevator Lobby and that's the I guess what we need to has to be can we talk just a little bit about what enclosed means I mean is the what is the board sentiment towards a a a an a unenclosed roof structure like a Pergola or um something to that effect I mean is it are is the board saying we don't want any structure just open air is that I'm getting some no shaking head so I I don't think that's going to solve it all for us if we don't allow some sort of structure it may not have to be like a fully typical extra floor structure but if there are construction methods that are say there there's I mean there's movable walls there's see-through walls there's there's different types of construction that would allow for the elements I mean we Florida there's a lot of times that and I think it was mentioned tonight there's there's they want to have a little bit of a enclosure for a restaurant portion so if a lot of people are sitting up there eating and a rain comes along they can stay there I don't think that that's pushing us too far if we allow possibly a certain percentage of this roof amenity area to have an enclosed usable space I I I know when developers come in in these big mixed use projects and they look at this they're not going to say I don't want a son thanks for the little Sun deck up there but no thank you they're going to want to see things and I think our community wants to see these things these are things that are really going to expand the use for us locally to stay here to to use things that are in our community and not have to go to other places the better we make them the more we get our community to stay here and do the things that we want them to do enjoy economically all these other things then we've gained another story we've gained a partial story possibly I don't see any problem with that I mean it's not visually blocking anyone we're not going to huge Heights we've already allowed a certain structure which is probably the most dominant structure on a roof the elevator shafts to be there if we allow some other light construction but hurricane resistant structure to be up there to make it a better experience I don't see that as a bad thing I think we need to work through it but and it may be a certain percentage we don't want to sure you don't want a whole other covered roof floor I wouldn't want that hell most the the best experience is to be out in the air and I think that's what people want but you know not everyone my mother at 88 years old with the wind blowing and stuff and wants to go up there and and see a a rocket launch would probably like to be inside a little enclosure yeah I if for what it's worth my opinion is that I I think you wouldn't you You' you'd get a lot more use of it I think it would be a lot more except CED if if you had some degree of covering up there cuz I've been in this Florida sun and it gets pretty hot and so if you could have some some some type or some degree of covering I think it would I think it would make it much more of an amenity um than than just a straight up opened air thing but and Dave you got the experts here I I that's that's just my that's my opinion as nice as that rooftop looked I would not want to sit out there in the sun in July and August yeah minutes give it three minutes I I I think we have to consider some type of a structure to get under rain Sun um and I agree with you maybe a percentage um but we're going to have to some in closure if you're going to allow them to put a a restant i I'm open I'm open I've changed my mind I'm I'm open to that we we've changed my mind with discussion uh okay I see those ideas and let's let's explore them okay thank you I think we have a long way to go but I think we're off to a good start yeah I think there are a lot of new construction techniques out there these days yeah we got a sceleton a lot of new movable wall sort of things that they work with that I know are really popular these days there's a real good example already down in Coco Beach of what they've done um I think they called it area 142 or something like that and they have built a bar on top of that and uh it's not a fully enclosed structure but what they were able to do was they were able to bring their elevator up to that height which uh allowed them to be able to do that now they're Clos huh thought they closed it's reopened yeah somebody somebody else has got it but my point is is the city of Coco coko Beach allowed this to take place and they do have a uh type of structure over it's not fully enclosed but it you like you said gets the sun off of you and it only meets the height of what's there already as far as the permanent structure service okay let's try it out see what you come up with the other clarification that I would bring up is I me keep throwing around the word amenity I mean is this and we've heard some speakers tonight talk about um these amenities kind of being a common area accessory use to um a hotel or an accessory use of the principle use are we discussing or does the board want to see this come back as an accessory use type um you know enhancement to to an existing building or are we talking about about the possibility of a separate independent business operation occupying the roof I think this is going to have any legs to it for new structures and the mixed use it's got to be a permitted use something that says this is a restaurant not just an amenity uh maybe that can be identified in and what you guys are going to be bringing back to us that there are you know um and I mean a rooftop viewing area what's the difference in the use of that or an amenity calling in an amenity May that viewing area I mean we heard one speaker talk about a rooftop viewing area for their hotel now that doesn't necessarily mean that other members of the public could not use that amenity but we so it wouldn't yeah I mean so and accessory uses are permitted they're just related to the you know the primary function yeah the main the main use on the property so just what are your thought what's the board's thoughts about that clearly as an accessory amenity use to you know a residential project to a hotel you know the rooftop gardens the bar the lounges Up on the Rooftop they're all generally related to the principal use now when you talk about you know a restaurant sure the restaurant could be associated with a hotel or are we talking about you know an independent restaurant operating on a on a rooftop you know the the odds of that happening are probably not likely if you're going to limit the amount of enclosed space um to have like an independent operating restaurant on the top of a roof um on the other hand if you're not placing limitations on the enclosure you could potentially have an independent restaurant there'd be enough space I think um my opinion if a lot of these things like that are going to we're going to run into those and are mixed use uh where a developer comes in here with a lot of different components to his project and if he's going to be within our codes within our height and he wants Joe um seafood restaurant guy to come in as one of his tenants and he wants a rooftop and uh he wants it enclosed they stay within our within our rules and that becomes something that's identified as a a permitted use within our codes and our limitations if if someone comes in and wants to use uh do the amenity package which is a small percentage like we've been mainly talking tonight then I guess that has to be identified separately as a certain and I think you are right there's there's the the distinction needs to be made between a single users amenities and and U accoutrements to their program versus a multi- tenant use building so I guess we got to dig into that but we what we whatever we're doing needs to go past just existing hotels and hotels it's going to have to carry itself if we want people to get interested pretty soon in these mixed use projects so I don't think I answered anything good discuss good discussion add some additional thoughts to it nothing under the code prohibits I mean if if you have a mixed juice project and you want to the sixf floor restaurant you just do you do it just do it yeah it's part of you know Falls within the height limitation what we're talking about is is just that extra extra one extra on top of the roof is going to be permitted above the maximum height I'm thinking like the maximum height is going to be all in closed space right and then what's the extra on the top that's a good simple way to approach it my initial thought would be it would be an accessory use and we would just you know how we treat other accessory uses if it's associated with the primary use or the but I guess it doesn't have to be well I don't know interesting but you I mean we I think we have enough to put something down on paper but I think you're going to have to further explore this because I'm seeing what's in the package most of what's being said by the speakers with maybe one exception and the discussion of the board I'm I'm viewing this as what extra gets to go on the top of the maximum height allowed for a building what is that extra I mean clearly they under the under the code you got to have the elevator right so you're going to have about 15 feet right because the elevator's got to be above the roof and and you know it's going to be at least the height of the elevator and Beyond right right you're going to need a wall you're not going to want for safety purposes not so you're need some extra height four five six feet I don't know what it is but something has to be there to protect the people on the roof all the seating stuff is that's just Furniture right equipment have if you're going to have a bar I mean I've seen you're going to have the height of the bar you're going to have something behind it probably right adding some panach liquor bottles up on the walls and stuff I mean those all seem additional items above the height limitation right Planters the the there on us one skyar oh yeah skyar yeah that's kind of what I pict yeah and I mean have to be food service doesn't have to be a restaurant up there could I mean you could have food service up there without having a restaurant you could have food brought up from the existing restaurant yeah yeah uhhuh enough to kind of go back and put something on pap I think that's a good idea at least we'll have something to to pick on you know and and work with that's a great idea yeah I like that that's it with well with your folks where are we uh are we there for for a draft get a good draft and look at it improve it seems like the staff is uh satisfied with the directions given uh okay I think we're ready to move to the next the agenda item so uh bring us a good Draft when you're ready we'll do it and let us now move to item three on the agenda a continued discussion for liveware development regulations and provide staff Direction so F over to you yes sir um Renee can you go a couple slides in and thank you for coming uh gentlemen and we hope to see you again and we welcome you and your ideas all right for people to file out all right so if that wasn't complicated enough for you guys now it's time to uh discuss the live Work Land Development regulations that we started talking about in February um so just as a refresher uh this stems from the mixed use uh future land use category that was established um policy l8b states that the city May adopt ldrs to allow live work units or live work space in commercial and Industrial zoning districts which allows a buildings or spaces within a building to be used jointly for commercial and residential purposes where the residential use of the place that's not pa place is complimentary to the primary use as a place of work um so we we started this discussion and I believe we have some some people here tonight um to speak to this and and really I think we want to focus on in my research I found that there's been you know for 10 different cities there's 10 different ways that they Define what a live work unit is so I think we really need to Define what it is to Cape Canaveral um and then kind of build off build off of that with you know different regulations um permitted use uh you know that this is it's going to be a little more complicated so we I think we should start by kind of defining what live work means to us at least that's how I think if you guys have any other approach that's obviously um fine but yeah this is my only slide so yeah I mean I really don't have too much outside of what's here but um if you guys want to discuss how you think of live work units live work space speak to some some of the audience um whatever you see fit okay uh yeah we've got a lot of mulling over to do with this one I see uh I'm looking down here where we need to Define live work units geographically limited Beyond zoning classification uh I don't understand that need to hear some more words about that I which part my feeling is that if you have live work like that uh slide you got businesses on the ground floor and uh living quarters above and uh what what are we talking about geographically limited um I think I may be on a different slide but so so I mean I think that's similar to the um rooftop usage is it something that we want to is that which slide is that okay well no I'm looking at the uh it's roof slide with the red building red brick building in it okay and then I'm looking at the uh summary that was provided by the staff okay I'm and down at the bottom of it where it have definitions or Define live work and I was just going through there moiling out loud to stimulate a conversation uh Define the approval process for live work unit uh okay I see I'm I'm F thought of that I didn't realize we needed a an approval process for it well you may not that's you build you build a building yeah I think that business in the bottom and living quarters on the so okay it makes code like simple yeah I mean if it's if it's just adding it as a permitted use that can be that could be how we approach it that's the way I've always thought of it I I'm willing to hear new ideas but I I didn't realize it was that now if we can keep it simple let's let's keep it simple let's keep it exle so number of live work units allowed on the property well okay that's a yeah so for example I think Coco Beach looks at it as one unit above one storefront so you know that's one approach so as I'm looking at this picture right here that red brick building what I see on the ground floor is retail space the second floor would be um business space and then the third and floor fourth floor could be residential is that yeah I think they are it says kind of to the right deck access to Flats above so it's must be British if I if I understand correctly the mixed use uh thing that's way for um A1A in central yes yeah that's pretty much this isn't it yes yeah this is a pretty typical I mean this is um comes up quite a bit this almost this exact type of of setup so and so the the live areas would be above the business areas right but directly associated with those businesses whether their retail space or you know office space right yeah okay I I mean seems pretty simple to me I I don't know yeah I think the idea of live workpace has evolved quite a bit in the new animal that's out there um this is is something that used to happen in urban situations where you owned the store below and you had your Department above right that's your classic there's tons of examples of of places that are successful these days especially in areas where you want to create Arts districts things like that within a special or an overlaid District or within the confines of a larger mixed use project and those buildings these days are typically in the fashion of Loft space where you have an un undefined business area and living space to where you have an artist or you have a designer that comes in and within that one space you have both uses yeah now what you run into there is is by code they have to follow and comply with commercial and residential codes and those seem to be the more versatile spaces um if they want to transition later there's the ability to to separate them by structure and go to the classic way but in these newer mixed use projects I believe what's going to come along is Loft space um mixed with business and and you're going to have that new animal that's going to want to be there so we may need to Define where we want these to happen and whether it's an old use that we have examples of around where there's a bar restaurant Below in a in a living space above can they be separate owners or does it have to be an associated residential to the owner of the business um things like that on smaller spaces do we want that to be the the classic version because there's already existing businesses below but they were been they've been asking to have a residential component so we may need to kind of break it down into what animals are there going to be out there and in what areas are they going to to be I don't want to complicate it but I think that's you know if as a community we want to really service the existing components the existing owners but have great ideas to help expand our community with an art or a market below and and things like that we want to we want to help them but we don't want to hinder ourselves by saying well you have to you have to own this business and it's down below and then do you walk you walk outside and you go to your house or do you walk within the space to go up to your place and you're the only one that can go there I got which which complicates your social life right things like that but we do want to have the the ability to have as many of these as possible to reduce commuter time to stay within our community to to use the other amenities that you've brought to the area all those ideas I think we need to really take our time and and figure out where where those are what they are but actually what you're talking about is not a whole lot different than this it's a structure yeah it's a modified structure to this the concept is the same how how you how you use it is I'm an owner I have a I have a way that I want to live close to my business in fact want to live in my business now I don't you know I've got this building over here that's maybe three four stories that's going to be part of a new mixed use maybe that is economically feasible to gut and create lofts for this type of thing rather than it be divided but that helps us bring a developer in and reduces cost on creating that element to this new project these sort of things that could could we could benefit from y good ideas M Mr chairman go Steve no I'm sorry Steve uh I've worked on a set of plans just recently uh put in an estimate together and it's similar to this structure that we're looking at on the little cartoon drawing and what they did was is first off you don't have a common Cor in a structure like this so there's no way to move between the units so the one I worked on had a staircase in each one of the commercial units downstairs that was accessible by a door that led up to their residents that would be on top and actually their residents occupied two more floors just like we're seeing right here so each one of those had their storefront uh customers come in separate set of doors they had one door off to the side that opened up to their private staircase that went up to their to their Loft up there went up to their suite and stuff so just kind of wanted to add that in you know obviously there were other considerations to be made with h fire and stuff like that but uh that was the type of project I looked at I thought it was very very uh very much represent what we think we might want to do here in our city so in that case did the visitors have to go through the business to get upstairs uh that would be a separate door there was actually they actually had a third door uh and so you had a front entrance you had a rear entrance and then you had another door over on the side that led directly to the residence that you didn't have to interface with the business but also that stairwell had a door that led into the business so they could come down not have to go out on the street and come into the front they just come down the stairs and open that locked door and go into their their commercial business there but yeah it's a good question yeah they had that one additional door so they don't even have to go to their business to get their residence there's a lot of ways to skin this cat that's what Architects are for and I think our job would be to say we allow this concept of live work space whether you want to live within the space and work within the space bring me a nice plan that meets code and I like it I'll let I'll let you do it if it works in a in a in a way that fits what we want to see if if it's separated fine that's your project you can live there you can work there you you have defined it that way you meet whatever codes I think we we've got the other element of defining the the way we're going to deal with existing structure and existing non-complying uh projects like this those may be on a as they come basis or one by one basis I don't know how we're going to deal with that but I think uh it's going to have to evolve yeah yeah it's it's those are going to be the touchy that's why this is a is a hard one to crack because everyone has different demands and you get a bunch of artists coming in here they're going to come up with all kinds of ideas of how they want to do this but we do I think we as a community want that vibrancy we want them coming in with these new ideas we want them to stay in our community I want to walk down the street and get to that guy's place and oh good ideas yeah and you know decide how you want to operate run your business live all that stuff and we act as the referee to make sure you meet code yeah yeah come up and blow us away with something cool in Town go ahead uh Steve so just wanted to put this out there so businesses succeed and businesses fail and businesses move on so this type of setup would be uh strictly rental uh in other words a person builds this building and then leases this out to this person not only their residents and their work area I don't perceive that as to being an individual owner for each one of these because again businesses start businesses close so I see this as a as a someone coming in a developer building it and setting it up and then it all goes to like a rental type basis you know well the the Sticky Wicket on this is is when you do divide it like this because then you've got to somehow watch out for the guy that built the business down below but the rental has nothing to do with it it's just another rental space to offset as cost so that's that's where this becomes a difficult um type of project to manage because we we don't want the mindset of I'm a developer I'm going to do retail below and I'm going to fool these guys and I'm going to get six rental spaces a residential above it by saying I've got tenants or I've got workers that are going to be there when we have no way of regulating that we're not property managers so that they there there are ways through the structure that help us regulate that by it being common space and it being multi-use space with the residential uh commercial without it being divided those are things to think about how do how do we how do we Define that why are we I'm just trying to be Devil's out yeah no that's what we need on this because it's why are we limiting it to the owner of the commercial property that needs to live upstairs that's one of the that's one of the questions yeah I I don't I don't believe we need to do that because I mean even if you've got your workers you know if somebody leaves okay now they've got this empty space to rent out and if The Neighbor Next Door or down the street can rent it out why do we want to so Li so does that mean at this point it's we're we're really misusing the the term of live work it's it's it's a project it's a mixed use project yeah and then it falls underneath that so why are we worried about it I think the mixed use to me is very separate the live work if I remember right and there's a couple of places back here remember Daddy's Bar it's ell may now they lived above that forever they still live above nobody lives above there now he died they might well yeah since a fire now yeah um but uh and there's another lady that uh operates and she's I think she's gone now and this what this is what started it uh where the BFW is that strip mall in there she she campaigned to be able to live where she was working because what we're talking about here is mixed juice and to me that's mixed juice um well I don't know what the diff how you how you separate them but this was more or less Geared for those local business folks in Cape canabal that had build buildings and had businesses and they could accommodate Living Spaces within it and that's how this started otherwise it's mixed to me to it's mixed use yeah otherwise it's all within one one volume and then it truly live work so so we Define it between those two I'm sorry go ahead are we talking about live work because of the zoning restrictions as opposed to mixed use so yeah we we call it called it live work in our comprehensive Plan update and I think Nancy is correct it's it's distinct from mixed use in the that was the theory when it would came up now I'm not saying it should be you know but sure and that's kind of why it's yeah we we got to kind of nail down what we're what we're looking for but yeah I think it's that smaller I guess you could call it Mom and Pop yes sort of yeah I don't know if you call it mixed use but that smaller you know residential commercial mix and again I think the residential use is is secondary to the commercial is a big part of it even in our previous discussion we were talking about say some of the restaurants being able to accommodate their staff who are very lowly paid and then we you know maybe having some places there and then that opened up a whole other area because do you do dormor I mean that's just you know but this was basically I thought just for those folks that have a small business in our area that could accommodate a living space and it would be a big help to them financially and travel and everything else and some of them are doing it anyway so are we saying we have one component of this is an existing potentially non-conforming but there are fall within the new mixed use idea and then there's the newer component that is the the element that may be uh constructed in a a viable lot along wherever that it's allowed and then the bigger projects it's it's the true live work space in those yeah and even you know is it what we heard earlier when when art was talking or is it um I know like you said there's there's some pre-existing ones like um I think it was rocket gym at one point or even sassy spoon um where where it is that you know you walk out of your apartment you can walk right into the right into the place of business so that's kind of what we need to start with and then art seemed to be talking about all of them yeah that is true we may just have to see what he's coming up with there and it's going to address all the different issues so I guess we'll see yeah I I failed to see why we differentiate between mixed juice and live work it's all mixed use art I'm sorry I'm sorry Anthony Mr chairman just to refresh everyone's memory um the two concepts are different you have the mixed juuse concept the larger projects we ad the commission Council adopted the new mixed juice future land use designation right under a mixed use project you can have that combination of residential uses and commercial in addition when the comp plan policy was adopted we created this live work concept to apply in the commercial and industrial areas prior to that residential was not allowed in commercial and Industrial we introduced the live work concept so there could be this this building or space that can be used jointly for commercial and residential if the board's not careful what you're going to see and undoubtedly would be my prediction is that um developers are going to come and say wow now we have live work I'm going to do a residential project in a commercial and Industrial Area and it's going to eat the this rule of maintaining the commercial industrial but introducing a joint residential and and commercial use so your board needs to be careful when when when they consider because if somebody wants to do a true residential project then apply for rezoning don't use the commercial and Industrial zoning district for a residential project um now of course we got the whole um other issue with the legislature preempting you know the the City Zoning powers on live local that's a different issue but this is intended to be a a combination where somebody can can can engage in commercial activity and residential together so the so the more we Define the space that they're allowed to build the better we can regulate or curtail their attempt to make it a residential project primarily right which which is probably why around the nation when people go into these Industrial and Commercial areas and do these live work they're primarily Loft spaces because they're adapting the existing uh building which has greater space like that and it's less uh expensive to divide it up into floors and they create these Lofts now if we if we Define this um to where it has to be something like that in these commercial industrial areas to comply with our live work we're we're really we're tying them up by code I guess how do I don't know how we do that but we we tell them what the business has to be within the confines of the residential unit as well well now we have defined we have defined commercial area we have defined industrial area and I in my mind we were allowing mixed use and live work in the overlay area only only in the overlay I think that this live work was to help address the uh the the places that are not in the overlay that want to do it or are doing that and the special exceptions with with whatever exceptions that the C's got part because those locational requirements don't apply to these projects and also the area requirements a big one because mixed use full mixed use projects are on Parcels Seven Acres or more so um but yeah if we want to hear from art I know there's a couple people here who um have have buildings that would be would be impacted by this so do we think ort had some ideas that we need I'm not sure come up to the uh microphone again art I may in the city you have an ordinance that in a residence certain businesses you can run like my license in my business because of coic and everything else I did a home office and it turned can do it an accountant can do it so in residential you're basically allowing commercial but in the small areas not in the overlay district and I think you've got mixed juice overlay as well as a 10 acre piece if you have a 10 acres you can talk mixed juice and get approval special but what you don't have is you don't have a live work area for small businesses to be able to live and Associate it with their business in commercial and one thing that again thanks to Lamar your A1A the first block back in the whole city is Zone commercial it has that option that's why you have the rental places that's why you have the city hall that's why you have a lot of the police stations everything else that is commercial so someone that wanted a business there a small business and wanted to live there which is basically like you were saying with the studio types you have nothing that I know of in the codes and I believe that's what you were trying to introduce is right to let are you going to make an ordinance or as uh Anthony's saying or is it going to get crammed down your throat by the legislation that's my understanding simply but I think berer has the point about a live work if there there's a res residential structure in right non-conforming residential structure just off of A1A that's in a commercial zoning District if the live work is about providing that opportunity for someone to operate their business and live at the same location in a commercial zoning area in Cape canaval then th this live work will provide that opportunity but it's not for purposes of converting a commercial area a commercially zoned piece of property into an apartment complex right with first with with one little component of commercial I I thought I might be wrong but I thought this was really help not the new construction no it could be some it could be a new construction it could be a commercial that but I thought that as long as it meets the the the the intent in the language you know the the building or space to be used jointly for commercial and residential where the residential use of the space is complimentary to the primary use of the place of work is because we wanted to emphasize we don't want to go back to the past where the city's commercial zoned property through special exception were turned into resident itial wanted to emphasize that the commercial District the commercial use of that property um stays to the Forefront doesn't go away it has to be complimentary the residential and the and the commercial have to be complimentary and a live work opportunity that make it makes sense I mean I think and I think that's what Mr Burger here is saying too on are those opportunities on that on those commercially zoned property just off of a the frontage of A1A could become live workspaces partially zoned okay where do we go from here it sounds like sounds to me like Anthony has at least a good start on the definition what live work is right um and if we have if we have a we have a defined if we have a definition of what live work means then we're better prepared to go ahead and talk about how to approve them uh you know is there a magic number of Living Spaces that you can have associated with you know that kind of thing but seems to me like the most important thing at this point is to come up with a card definition of what a live work space is yeah but now isn't that what we already have on the screen here we could c yeah I think that's a great uh foundation and then looking at some of the examples on the second attachment they they are pretty I mean they're very similar so just as an example in Titusville buildings or spaces within buildings that are jointly used for commercial and residential purposes where the residential use is secondary or access accessory to the primary use as a place of work so I mean that's that's pretty much what our comp plan language says um and then yeah it's where where we go from there so to use the Titus Titus will as an example they keep they do keep it simple they have uh they Define live work units and then they have them permitted in certain zoning districts by by right in some cases or by special exception in some cases and that's really it they don't have a bunch of a huge list of you know standards they do discuss you know number and and square footage but but you're right Lamar it doesn't it doesn't have to be complicated it can be you know pretty simple but I mean once we have that definition we can we can build off of that and I think we have our definition for the most part it needs to probably be a little bit more you know yeah FL it out a little bit if you look at if you look at like you provided the attachment number two if you look at West Melbourne in Orlando yeah definitions where you know West Melbourne refers to um the the portion of the structure that is used jointly for commercial and residential purposes where the resident owner or tenant is responsible for the commercial activity performed in Orlando similarly they use different language but I think the intent is the same um the live work unit must be occupied entirely by a single housekeeping unit and tying the commercial activity with the with the resident and vice versa is that what we're trying to direction we're trying to go U have a speaker over here are you Anthony no I'm Adam this isn't actually what I'm here to speak about to I thought you wanted to say something go ahead I do uh as far as definitions for liveed work versus multi uh use the diagram you have is multi-use it's not live work uh live work is exactly what Mr Sharp is talking about and that is is where you live and work in the same space there's no separation between your residence and the business itself mixed use is what this diagram shows a separation showing commercial units attached to residential units it's just that simple so live work is one space multi-use is divided spaces thank you so if we require them to build these live workspaces and whatever that space is it has to comply with both residential and Commercial codes wouldn't that typically guide the the developer or owner to to to make make this space kind of what we want it to be live work because they're he's kind of forced into that commercial area we're talking about commercial industrial areas that are are are going to be adapted with some residential component but if we make that residential component also comply with the commercial codes they're going to stay within our Zone that area that we want them to be does that make sense you're going to have to say some more words I I heard a lot of words yeah and I listen carefully but I didn't get there well I I I read something where like Sony uh while he's looking I kind of liked the Coco Beach 2-36 where it's it's a work live unit it's single dwelling unit in attached building and a multif family mixed use or commercial building where the predominant use of the unit is commercial because the predominant use of work live unit is commercial customary commercial impacts may take precedence over the quiet enjoyment expectation of residential neighbors I mean that kind of I know when you have to live with both residential and Commercial you might have a little bit of conflict so they they kind of split it in between the two different things which was is the most major I think we want the commercial part of it to be major CU it's in the commercial district and Industrial District right yeah we're closer to work live as Coco Beach defines it so yeah this is uh does anybody have any any other thoughts as far as what direction we want to take it Lamar have you read the um attachment to some of these definitions West West Melbourne was pointed out as at it's going to be it's hard going to be hard to tell just read that I can read it out out loud to you as well if you'd like so it's a structure or a portion of a structure that's used jointly for commercial and residential purposes where the resident owner or tenant is responsible for the commercial activity performed and then they go on and they have some requirements in the definition whether a commercial activity takes place subject to Aid business license and where the living area occupies no more than onethird of the total floor area of the unit that's the only definition I've seen that includes that floor area ratio okay I've got to go away and do some more thinking about this it's a little yeah I'm suffering from data overload now no I I I understand that too we we drunk from the fire hose tonight but that's okay that's what we do and uh we'll we'll we'll unravel it yeah so I'll try to make this research a little more robust maybe lay it out curiosity do you know what subdistricts live work units are permitted in Coco Beach because the thing which say only permitted in certain subd districts I know that they their downtown overlay permits them but I I'm not sure besides that off hand yeah so I I'll kind of come up maybe with some some definitions that we we could look at and then we can work from there so we don't have to struggle over that and then bring that to you guys next time Anthony gave us a very good set of good words to find difference between mixed use and live work and I heard them and I listen carefully but I got to go home now and sit down and let that settle so I got to do that and I might want to have conversation with Anthony to I learn better that way but anyway keep working and bring us a good definition work well I I'll expand this search because there's a it's a very popular thing like like Danny was saying we don't want to miss a good thing but like I was saying it's like you know 20 different cities 20 different definitions where I used to be when when we put in the uh overlay District we gave ourselves the opportunity to have commercial and residential together so the uh business owner could live with the business the danger to it is it could turn into a residential set of apartment right right like Anthony was saying yeah I still don't know how we reg regulate that yeah what I'm running into is is the way lot and also I believe someone he come in and talk to us sorry Anthony Graziano 7900 North Atlantic um could you possibly grandfather in what's been done over the years I know you know when you go back 50 60 years and someone puts an apartment above a restaurant or something to that effect you know it's done it's it's it's been done it's you I'm from Northern New Jersey and we never had it I never heard of a landwork unit was always a commercial residential mix that's all it was so you know I was saying if if you know new construction you can always control through the board but the old stuff all right so I have a unit Behind The Sassy Spoon restaurant I didn't put it there I bought it excuse me I wait it's vacant everyone knows it's vacant because they're trying to break into it like every day you know so I and I need also to um I'd like a designation from the city to designate the apartment you know it's being up to code or recognized as an apartment that way I can get insurance on it on a residential commercial mix because my insurance agent saying why is this thing vacant I don't want to rent it you know because I want to be a good you know a good L we have around town units where uh Proprietors live above the business yes sir uh there's a place up in at the corner of uh Central and North Atlantic warehouses many warehouses and the owner lives above them and we accommodated that we went through some some kind of maybe it's a special exception I forgot how we did it sure but we accommodated that and then the owner of another set of warehouses they live above those we accommodated those we found a way and that's all I know to tell you I don't remember the details I'm getting older and older and what our the new information pushes out the old I know me too so to answer your question though we have we have ways to accommodate uh stuff that's been grandfathered in or there's good Logic for it leaving it alone or or to make it so that we can all live with it so sure just State your case and we'll yeah please if you could help me because you know I've there's been people in there that tried to burn the place down you know it's it's blocks have been Chang and I know I like I said I didn't build it I know it's not you know it should it shouldn't have been built the way it was you know from the from the old owner or whatever because you know I would have went through this board first before I would have done anything um but also I'd like to pursue that Airbnb is a commercial transaction to me anyway I mean I'm in high-rise maintenance in Manhattan that's what I do for a living and um you know if you want to talk about commercial transactions we have more commercial transactions going on in R1 123s All Over America than we do in in the you know in commercial areas you know so I I that's here or there we could talk about that for 10 hours I I understand it's got nothing to do with my place or anything else but I really would like to get a designation for that apartment from the city so I can get insurance on it you know on you know and not get dropped from insurance because insurance in Florida here is hard enough to get for you know anything anymore and I'd like to you know my my tenants in the restaurant would rent that apartment from me or you know if you want to bring these apartments online too it would be nice to have a long-term contract even for someone who's not using one of these apartments you know to have someone in the city who's going to work in the city and say well we'll give you a six-month or over contract or a year you know long-term contractual agreement that way we can bring somebody's apartment online and and you can tell uh people that you know St canaville has more Apartments online instead of shortterm rentals that's all I like I said you know we could talk about this for hours and everything else but if you can help me out I would really appreciated about that apartment because like I said there's so many people trying to break in there that I wish somebody would live there okay does he need to talk to you so yeah I was going to say I'm not familiar offand with the properties Lamar was talking about but I can give you a call tomorrow yeah we've talk sure yeah yeah I'll do some research so much thank you thank you to the board to help me make the city better place thank you thank you Carl see if you can work with him and fix that yeah not to blor but I think he you own the B building I own the building not the resturant and the you have a tenant for the restaurant but also you know in the legal apartment too like you know if my my tenant W owns the restaurant was to rented PL to their you know someone who was working there you know you need a contract for all this stuff you know because you know how land tenant you know Lander has rights tenants have rights and I would like you know I would like to be more in control of that you know what I'm saying in other words I don't want you know to say to them well you know I'll R to this apartment I'll out a Le with them whoever lives in there I need to know names I need to know who's paying what you know I have to have all that because I've been through a lot of evictions up north as soon as you get into you know Court first thing in Jersey they want to see is a CO for the otherwise a judge will not even you know hear the case so I have to bring the co and now we have to start talking about how many people are living there who moved in you know and everything else it gets a little into this iffy area I would just like to have it as a commercial residential mix and say okay well this is an apartment okay does someone in the city want to live in that apartment do they want to live you know do my tenants want to live in that apartment do their want to live in there that's fine I'll I'll make out the contract I'll I'll deal with it you know that's where I would like to have okay thank you okay all right so to summarize then Kyle you're going to work more fully on that live worker unit definition we've got to be careful that we keep the commercial District a commercial District without it being gained into residential did I say that right uh yes okay and okay I know what I need to do now it's I'll do that offline I need to get more education is there anything else we need to do tonight there's I have two more slides but it's really just because I did everybody I don't think everybody made the March 27th um joint Workshop but we haven't met since then so I just did a very quick I did I did not make that looping back um so I won't I won't Bel labor it too much but the East Central Florida Regional planning Council came and spoke to to the public the Planning and Zoning Board and the city council just generally about green uh green storm water infrastructure and low impact development um and so here I just kind of touch on what they what they spoke about specifically Florida's development policy um and then a lot of stuff came up about Cape canaberal development and policies so um elevating new developments using structural elements versus Phil uh perious construction materials uh we briefly discussed the parking requirements that we worked on with bars and restaurants and how that can decrease the amount of Pavement in the city um existing projects like the Veterans Memorial Park graen Garden the uh difference between regulations versus incentives um and the need to most importantly move quickly on a lot of this because it's looming so Rene could you go to the I remember that I made that what where we decided that if there's anything we need to do we need to do it with regulation incentives that was their yeah I believe that was one point we parked that aside yeah so and then just a couple things that we're working on since then and have been working on before then is the of course the Veterans Memorial Park uh rain garden with that with that Grant the paril flood comprehensive plan um updates are required by the state of Florida and we are finally getting those together with the help of the uh Regional planning Council um a lot of it's about concentrating population away from high flood Hazard areas it's I would say you know kind of the gist of it just trying to reduce the risk of flood um and updating our comprehensive plan to reflect to reflect that and allow us to make you know Land Development regulations and other policies that kind of the stuff they were talking about about low impact development um and then Lexi Miller mostly has been working on some impervious surface area uh Land Development regulations currently we have a maximum lot coverage but lot coverage doesn't include you know driveways or you know it moves it it leaves out some very important impervious surface level stuff so we are working on getting that done and uh that's really it I just wanted to very briefly touch on that and let you guys know you'll be seeing uh some of this coming up pretty shortly this business about uh drainage in storm water we it's on another slide but on the first slide we we had a flood the other day in my neighborhood again yeah not a bad flood but it it flooded up and got in the driveways yeah it was bad caused concern I guess my uh concern and I got to work with this with another department is to make sure all the lift stations work and that they have a steady regular maintenance program and stuff like that uh what I did out of that is I sat down with our uh I have a smart neighbor who's a good tinkerer inventor Carpenter anything you wanted to be and we figured out how to seal our doors against the flood so I've come up with a plan that I'm going to seal all the doors in my house up to a foot and uh I have an air conditioner that sits on the bottom level ground level and the entrance in out of the house the Ducks are ground level so I'm figured out how to build a dke around that that can be installed quickly and disassembled quickly Dutch engineering so you can't I can't move you can't move Harbor Heights it's a flood area but I'm figuring out how to seal up all right I like to hear it it's the type of thing we need to do on a individual level anybody wants to talk to me I'll share my ideas all right thank you what else you got KY I believe that's all I've got I think um we have one last public participation about the non-conformities Mr Adam morera that card here and is is that if that's okay with you if the board is ready to hear say again is the board okay with with hearing that now yeah we had him wait the whole time yeah we we he said he didn't mind he said he found it interesting go go ahead you're Adam Mara Adam Mara yes okay so thank you I know we've been here for a while so I appreciate your time I'm going to try and make it as brief as possible uh I just want to speak to you guys uh about some of the issues facing non-conforming Property Owners right now uh I was actually here last year spoke to you guys last year about this uh I didn't have any real life examples to provide but tonight I do so I'd like to get into a little bit more detail and maybe give you guys a little Direction uh like I said my name is Adam marara I'm a resident of Cape Canaveral here for 21 years I'm the owner of Florida Home Inspection Bureau where the we are property inspection company uh for residential and Commercial properties I owned the property at 212 Adams Avenue since 2014 uh that property was built in 1959 and is considered a non-conforming property like the majority homes here in Cape canaval what's the address 212 Adams Avenue uh I've spoken to City Council Members I've spoken to staff members uh with the city spoken to some of the members of this board here and I hear repeatedly several goals of Cape canaval uh those are to improve and beautification through low impact development methods uh to keep families in Cape canaval and to limit Airbnb short-term rentals uh unfortunately what I'm finding is your blanket of residential zoning is actually preventing or severely inhibiting those goals so using my property as an example it was built in 59 it's got a 50ft wide lot 6 foot setb to the East and a 5 and 1/2 foot set back to the West you you're at 212 Adams correct okay go ahead Uh current code requires a 60ft wide lot which which I can't make my lot any larger uh with 8ot setbacks I also can't add any setbacks uh and it severely limits what I can do with that property my family when I bought that property it was just me I wasn't married I didn't have kids now I have a wife and two daughters I've got one bathroom so I'm sure you guys can understand the predicament that that puts me in some mornings can I get you to stand by a second Anthony didn't we do something for the 50 foot a wide lot lot owners in the Avon area to make their lots sailable and conforming so they could get mortgages we did something yeah I'm not sure if it's what he's this gentleman's talking about but I don't recall he's talking about non-conforming and I think we I know he's talking about non-conforming I don't know what his point is yet yeah variant good comment yeah thank you sir for putting me back on the straight and narrow go ahead Adam I get you I got I got you before you made your point go ahead no worries uh so my family would like to improve the property by adding a second story uh that's a low impact method of development as opposed to adding an addition or knocking the home down uh we'd like to keep the home period correct we'd like to keep the aesthetic of the neighborhood that we love and that's what we would plan on doing by adding that Second Story with the city I've worked with the city now for 12 12 to 18 months uh going back and forth with Kyle uh Dave and taking their suggestions to alter my plans to try and come up with something that fits for the city code uh I've altered it each time and come back to another hurdle to to Cross or to jump over and finally finding out that the plan I mean let me rewind here so I finally find a plan that doesn't expand the current footprint at all and doesn't expand any of the non-conforming features of my property so my setbacks uh unfortunately this has been an exercise in futility all these changes the back and forth and everything because I've been informed now that due to the non-conforming stat St of my property and based on the current language of the city code that I'm not allowed any expansion whether it is the footprint or to raise the uh vertical height of the property uh and I'm also not allowed a variance uh for this situation is what I've been told so because the city code was written with apparently no foresight or consideration for these non-conforming properties the city's denying myself and other non-conforming property owners an Avenue of relief uh which really goes against our property rights as a Florida property owner the state has a property owner's Bill of Rights I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with it but right number seven is the right to relief of payment or compensation when a new law rule regul or ordinance of the state or political entity unfairly affects your property so where's the relief is it is this fair is it fair to impose modern requirements to a home and lot that was zoned in 1959 is it fair to govern the properties with Planning and Zoning that didn't take them into consideration at all so as an example after 2004 the current Florida building code uh requires all windows and doors and new buildings to be impact rated or to be covered by an impact rated system shutters impact rated glass Etc so was my 1959 home required to retrofit required to put in Impact rated Windows required to do shutters no no it's not the answer is no it's not uh because they don't make older homes retrofit to conform current standards it's just it's because it just wouldn't be fair so this board should make recommendations to the city council to provide relief in the form of either a rubber stamp variants for non-conforming property owners that are primary residents of this city or the most preferable option would just be to add language to our code similar to the city of Miami that allows for expansion of non-conforming properties as long as the non-conforming features are not expanded which would be the case for my expansion plans so without this relief the only option most of us will have is to sell those properties look to move out of the area take our families somewhere where we can have a home that can accommodate us sell them to that developer who's looking to knock down the homes add as many units to that lot into that property is possible that will eventually become short-term rentals airbnbs and push am out of Cape Canaveral uh ruining the aesthetic of those neighborhoods taking away those historic homes that's what it's going to come down to and that's what it's coming down to that's what I'm facing right now uh because I'm in a home that no longer works for my family so talk is cheap and I understand that uh so I put my application in to being on the adjustment board so I can help guide the City of Cape Canaveral to continued Improvement and what I challenge this board to do is to do the same thing take some action help us out please thank you Adam by the way are you can are you can to the uh maradas of Wayne New Jersey I don't believe just a story Anthony y I think I remember now this is a question not a statement didn't we do some sort of fix for the 50 50ft lot so that when those people sold their lot they weren't able to get mortgages because new guy couldn't get a mortgage because the lot was nonconforming didn't we fix that so that you could get a mortgage on nonconforming I don't know what we did I got it's a question maybe you need to go away and do some research I know um nonconforming lot of Records we we the city adopted a provision about allowing um single family dwellings and plexes to be rebuilt I believe to no it's about mortgages people couldn't The New Guy new owner if you tried to sell the property the new buyer couldn't get a mortgage because it was non-conforming property I thought we did a uh some sort of legislative act to what that's I I just can't recall I can't either tonight it's a question yeah can you do a little look at we can we can do a little digging little look back look back I'm not sure that's that's one question the other question and I just asked the board maybe maybe we ought to look at some sort of legislative act that would allow people to put a second story on their homes and larger living space we what what is needed if we do some sort of legislative act that allows the Lots with that are 50 non-conforming Lots can we do that can we allow them to build a second story is that enlarging the non-conform that's yeah the the city has that the traditional rule that many communities have that's rooted in zoning laws going back probably a century or more um non-conforming structures cannot be enlarged expanded altered right to ex to to expand the um non-conforming nature of the structure so what I gathered from his comments is that he has a non-conforming structure the law generally requires non-conforming structures to that's because it sits on a 50ft lot nonconforming lot right so structure itself is meets the SE back meets the existing setback I'm not sure I heard that or not all right so I mean it's a little bit of a can of worms so theoretically if you have a non-conforming structure that doesn't comply with the setbacks right it's too close close to to the boundary of the property so this gentleman would like to expand right by going higher so right so the question you know under the general principle in the in the code you can't enlarge a non-conforming structure now you could do a tear down and comply with all the setbacks and build two stories in this particular case you can't build on the non-conforming structure because it's encroaching into the setbacks so he's he's he's kind of stopped but I'm already en well now you're arguing now you're arguing I'm trying to get to policy I'm not debating I'm trying to get to like just generally the issue of dealing with non-conforming structures right you can't expand them can't expand them up you can't expand them wide you just can't expand them so the Hope was the relief would be to adopt some sort of legislation that would somehow Target allowing Property Owners to to expand non-conforming structures how you do that I have no earthly idea but I think that's his point as long as they stayed within the you do it with special legislation you have to do it by special legislation for that area that whole area down there is have all those 50ft lots The Hope was that they would be sold off and combined into larger Lots what happens is they get sold off and somebody buys two lots and gets enough uh property to build uh three tow houses you can put three town houses on a 100 foot lot wi and still me setbacks the president setback requirement so that's what's happening the density increases so we we really need to think about some sort of special legislation to fix that allow those people to larger homes well this might be one of those subdistrict or areas that need to be examined if they have those old 50 foot lots that may maybe there needs to be some subdistrict policy Council would entertain something like that as long as they're stand within the existing footprint of of what they've been grandfathered into as a non-conforming lot why would we care um them going up I don't see why we wouldn't allow something like that with a special exception a great question I need I need to speak to the council I just don't know where it would be on on this I mean they're open they're usually very open-minded to suggestions where people want to improve the community and that'd be a way to improve that area low impact okay well I I'll see if I can't get on council's calendar for a few seconds and get to think about that ran City one right on ad understand situation and other cities I work in Coco all the way down to Sebastian what they have done is if it's nonconforming that you cannot increase the nonconforming so as he's saying if you're six foot back and the it's the new code is eight you can stay six but you can't do anymore you can't increase the non-conforming but you can stay within the footprint of your non-conforming can you go up yes they allow you to go up and again the overhangs and everything else we have another one Ridgewood that I'm meeting the lady on the six that wants she's non-conforming right on the corner of Lincoln that one story house there she wants to do some work and we were with the city and went through the whole thing and we want to add in the back but we can't we got to go back to the new setups because of it and they won't let us go up and that other cities that said if it's non-conforming you cannot increase the non-conforming footprint but you can build up and then stay back and you can't expand out into uh into uh increase the nonconforming so like his case he can cut the walls build the footer put the second floor on you're not changing anything it's already non-conforming but our city ordinance will not allow that okay we we need to do some new thinking that's all we need to we what what what's really oh just so you know they had a meeting this week or today the uh K View school it's in trouble it it may close because of Airbnb the uh Airbnb concept keeps going toward rentals and not families no children no children no school so it's uh it's getting ready to think about closing because of because of Airbnb we were inundated with Airbnb and no kids only rental what's cool K view our our elementary school here at Cape canaval K View El and it's it's been here ever since we've been a city yeah they lost their TI away so anyway just so you know it has like 300 kids what 300 kids what about three other kids that's what a k you has is about 30 kids yeah that's all they have yeah we're running out thank you legislature I don't know anything else to add tonight uh I'll get on the counil you asked me to mention one thing I had a question yeah and it's kind of pertinent right now because it has to do with airbnbs if you remember two years ago we really worked that issue and back and we had lots of people here and everything one of the outcomes of that was the city was going to put in they hired some group that to establish a database they were going to be tracking it and I asked Dave maybe a year ago if he had any data from that and he he said they didn't have it yet but you know and I'm thinking especially like listening to this my kid went to cape view in the 90s my wife taught there for several years yeah and uh and you you know you I'm seeing we're seeing it all over Cape canaval is that database working or is there any data we could look at and would it mean anything on Airbnb registration yeah uh the city had hired a company and tracked Airbnb registrations vacation rental registrations that company abruptly closed their doors the city hired a a new company and I believe their data base has been pop populated now for a few months yeah it's called Deckard de I can so that information is a you know I mean we're me Kyle could get that information to just out of curiosity total registered uh airbnbs well my question adds to hers is that uh now that we've got the database do we have some who looks at it and who who does the enforcement do we have that solved does anybody in the city uh that would be code enforcement and and Nancy I was just told by by Renee that that number is also given in our weekly update what what did you say it was under if you receive weekly update report well I don't but I can go find it I'm sure it's on online um I believe you can also register to receive that but it's under our it goes by department and it's under our department under btrs so you can see the shortterm rental the longterm rentals what type of businesses so all those be interesting to look at and see if it's I can see back where I live every time something comes on the market we'll have investors come in low balling and trying to pick them up sometimes it works sometimes we have good citizens watching it change so it doesn't give you specific addresses it just tells you what type ofr it is and how many of that type ofr I think we're kind of looking at like the overall picture you know did this work good right um did it not I know I think the first company to me they were just going to Airbnb and VRBO and whatever you know I don't think it minded right we had to mine stuff yeah from my understanding this one's a lot a lot better right so they're looking at Craigslist they're looking at uh want you know classified yeah Brian Brian Palmer code enforcement uh manager is the main the main guy so I'll talk to him and see because yeah if we get some some data that'd be cool to see someone's looking at it they made me change my windows out to comply with fire code for egress and my my home because of that from Deckard I don't know who it was but that' be code enforcement but code enforcement yeah but weren't they informed by this this consultant that there was an Airbnb there I don't know that's the only way they would find out yeah so I assumed that the system was working much to my dismay but I did it well more likely one of your neighbors weren't happy about something and they made a phone call could be well this is the most informal meeting I have ever run in all my years of being here so but I think we accomplished a lot um I don't regret it but uh I usually try to keep it tighter and moving along we're almost 9:00 so we'll get out of here do better next time uh anything else all right uh hearing nothing I'm going to move that we adjourn I second the motion thank you all in favor say I I None opposed we are adjourned