e e have to refuse here [Music] [Music] testing know what you do tired now no I wish I have a Home Care Agency okay a franchise Synergy Home Care okay yeah so keeps me busy nice yeah everybody regular meeting of the C city planning board is now in session and in compliance with the open public meetings Act of 1975 adequate notice of this meeting has been provided should any member of this board have reason to believe this meeting is being held in violation of that act they shall so state that at this time hearing none we'll start with the Pledge of Allegiance United States of America for it stands na indivisible and okay roll call Karen yes Mr bazer here Mr Jones here miss mccorkel here Mr Crowley here Mr gorgone mayor mullik council member Jagger here Mrs Reed here Mr lenol here Mr pusis Mr kin here thank you okay um the first item is it's it's actually we have two two um subplots here we've got the master plan consistency review of the updates and procedures for the protection of trees in K May which which is under discussion but that rolls into the resolution which is also on the on the agenda tonight so we'll sort of roll those two together um I thought somebody from the Shad stre commission might be here I guess they're not so um any any any discussion on the master plan consistency review can I ask a question if you wouldn't mind we have some minutes to vote on do you want to do that after this pass that oh sorry yep sorry about that is that okay thank you okay the January 9th minutes we'll do that first any corrections to that motion to approve I'll move okay thank you yes second okay we have a motion by Mr Crowley seconded by Mrs Reed council member joerger yes Mrs Reed yes Mr Crowley yes Mr lenol yes M mccorkel yes Mr krippin yes Mr Jones abstain M okay thank you Mr bazer yes thank you okay then we'll move on to the shade Tre commission items any any comments on the master plan consistency good we don't need to vote on that we uh yes yes we have to vote pass the resolution well the resolution of voting but not okay so let's uh anybody have any questions or comments on the resolution hearing none a motion to approve the resolution a motion second okay we have a motion by Mr Jones seconded by Mr krippin councilman member jger yes Mrs Reed yes Mr Crowley yes Mr lenhome yes Miss mccor yes Mr krippin yes Mr Jones yes Mr bazer yes thank you okay we have one application tonight which is Madison Kate May R LLC 1025 1029 Beach Avenue block 1095 Lots 8 through 13 site plan preliminary and final accompanied by uh variance hardship variance relief applicant want to come forward make sure you turn your microphone on [Applause] Tony all right hey uh good evening Mr chairman members of the board Anthony monzo from monzo Kates dois representing the applicant Madison Beach Resort um Kate May LLC trading is Madison Beach Resort actually Madison Kate May real estate LLC uh this is for the uh improvements to the uh Montreal in and also there's a guest house um to the rear of that at the corner of Stockton and Madison uh this site's located um at a prominent spot in the city of K May right along Beach Avenue at the intersection of Madison currently it consists of a 70 unit hotel and a 277 seat restaurant bar with a small liquor store and pool facilities uh the guest house rear was previously approved uh by the board for employee housing it currently has five bedrooms and the applicant is uh seeking to utilize that guest house for uh four additional guest rooms associated with the hotel uh the history of this um of the applications related to this property go back to 2004 that we were able to uncover and provide with our application uh the last one again was in 2010 and that was for the um enlargement of three guest rooms with this application and and Mr huris kind of laid it out in his report as well um there are several things that the applicant is seeking to do the first one is to uh remove the existing decks stairs and landings uh at the 2 and a half story guest house and construct a small 60 foot Edition and converted from employee housing to a uh guest room to guest rooms associated with the hotel uh this was brought before the HPC uh last year around this time and we did have uh we do have conceptual approval and the report was submit it uh along with the other reports to the board um we're also looking to remove uh existing concrete walkways uh and replace them with new walkways uh uh big thing here is is is remove existing impervious areas and provide an additional 778 Square ft of land landcaping areas um as you can see in the application and on the plans this project already exceeds lot coverage so the applicant is making attempts to uh reduce um lock coverage and create more green space I also want to point out that um the original plan and application called for infilling the 330 square foot uh pool kids pool uh with Pao area Mr hurles made a suggestion in his report that maybe the applicant consider um a landscap escaped area instead of infilled with concrete which the applicant has agreed to do and and probably a grass area and there may be some plantings there as well but that's one change uh that will improve um lock coverage uh there's also uh on on the west side of the building um on the fourth floor uh there's a an exposed deck and the applicant is seeking to cover it basically following the the roof line of the main Hotel over that area and it from an aesthetic standpoint as you can see in some of the renderings that we'll present uh it's a it's a major Improvement and um you know there are variants associated with this that that Craig has identified and I'll have um I'll have Mr schaer go through them when he gets to his testimony um there's a signage and and uh variance uh but actually there's less signage proposed than exists currently um signs are being removed and and there is one new um Monument sign in the front that will actually hide the pool equipment uh the two signs that are currently on the corners are being removed so there's one Monument sign in the front center of the hotel and then there's going to be a sign in the A-frame uh part of the roof area um that will identify the the hotel um and there are parking um deficiencies that currently exist uh right now the parking deficiency um is is is I believe 1702 parking spaces required and 88 um provided um this project will actually Reduce by one the number of required parking spaces and we'll add by three the number of existing parking spaces bringing it to 91 uh those parking spaces um will be um we're we're asking that they be approved as stack parking spaces for employees only and they would be located on the Stockton side in that drive way that leads back to the parking lot and uh there are and again M Mr Schaefer will go through the variances by the way I have with me um Mars Clark from the as architects who will provide testimony of Andy Schaefer who will provide testimony from an engineering standpoint and I have Dan Alicia who's a principal owner of the property that is here mainly to answer any questions and make any decisions that are needed for this application so with that background I also want to point out um that U we are asking we didn't put it in the application I spoke to M Mr huris before the hearing tonight we're asking that this be phased and that the work unrelated to the um enclosure of the restaurant area in the front we're asking that that be done first first uh we just need to look at the other regulatory issues pertaining to the enclosure including you know any D permits that are needed for that so uh the applicant would like to have the guest house and other um work unrelated to any any um D permits started so if the board is going to approve this project we would ask that it be done as a phased project and the um applicant can submit a phasing plan um for Mr ear's review um if that's done the condition of approval uh so with that background we're seeking preliminary and final site plan approval with the nine variances that have been listed in the application so I'd like to start with uh with Mars Clark uh and and you can swear all the witnesses in if you want at one time and I'm also going to swear Mr hurles do each of you raise your right hand gentlemen do each of you swear or affirm that you will tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth sh you got yes I do yes and uh I'm not sure if Mr Clark has been here before if he hasn't I'll him put his credentials on the record uh hi Morris Clark I'm a uh partner director of operations at Das Architects I I am a licensed architect in several States including New Jersey uh I've been in front of several zoning boards over my 20 plus year uh career um including Wildwood Crest um and Ocean City I have been in front of uh some of you in past years uh reviewing some other projects here as well uh with with my partner David Schultz excuse me one moment I'd like to let everyone know we're live streaming so please speak into the microphone because Folks at home if they can't hear it they get upset please thank you yep okay is is um yes accepted okay acceptable yes so if you can um if you can just explain the project um and you may refer to yeah if it's all right I'm GNA jump up and stand I'll stand over there at the other mic okay take your mic turn that mic on if you're referring to anything other than what's already in your packet or if you've altered what's in your packet please let us know so we can mark it as an exhibit okay okay right so this is our uh this is our site plan um it's the same Z 010 that uh we provided I think it's black it might be black and white in our printouts um then we'll mark it we put some color so Mark is exhibit a a colored site plan okay uh so just walking you through the site uh our our on beach AV here this is the long main uh facade of the of of the structure of the main Hotel so here this light blue area this is the addition of the restaurant that's currently a uh a permanent tent structure that's there that's been previously approved and has uh quite a bit of seating in there at this time we're just asking to kind of take that same footprint and close it take away this tent structure and create something that you know really fits the hotel the neighborhood and and and the C May area um instead of having a a tent there uh kind of across from that there's an existing pool equipment building it's this low low um structure that has like metal roofing on it um we want to we're proposing to actually eliminate the large Montreal in sign that's further down the site and create a new Madison Cape May sign on top of that uh pool pool equipment structure that already exists trying to hide that again make improvements to to the to the project in the neighborhood by getting rid of an on- sightly pool equipment building and hide it with this nice sign that we're proposing that we can show you later like I said uh here near the uh the lobby is where that current Montreal uh sign that's a little over a a a story tall is residing we're going to take that one down so that that sign will come down um we are proposing some uh some elements on the facade which I'll get to in a in a moment some changes to roof lines but we're not changing any Heights um and we're proposing some signage on the building there as well and then back here at the uh what we're referring to as the guest house we are taking off some existing decks the existing stair that is kind of uh coming down kind of crazily um we're going to take that off we're going to rebuild it as a new usable deck space for the uh for the guests that are here in the in this guest house and a new safer uh egress stair that would be attached to the building uh held tight to it and and properly uh take and properly built and taken care of hold on one second Sir Mr Roush are you able to see and hear I can see okay try to speak a little Clos to your microphone so it can okay sorry uh I'll try to hold it then better sorry about that so uh here is uh the ground floor plan so you can see this area here shaded in the darker tone with the darker walls is the restaurant Edition so again that area currently uh is the is the tent the the permanent tent structure that we're looking to remove and uh build back with an extension of uh interior seating some nice Windows along the street facade this again is that pool equipment area we're not changing it we're not enlarging the size of it we're simply trying to build on top of it with the this signage um so that we can make it go away and it'll look like a monument sign we have and the rest of this first floor is is existing here is that z200 this is z200 yes thank you now you're saying the new sign would be going on top of that restaurant no on top on top of the pool equipment building it's a low it's a low a little low structure I think the equipment it's sunk in this is z201 this is the second floor plan which is showing the existing roof area uh with the extension of the restaurant we would also propose to extend the roof area and create more of a lounge space for the hotel so you'll see the seating on here is a lot of more comfy Lounge seating um not for restaurant use it's for the hotel uh people to be able to come down and gather give them a space to to come and enjoy uh so there's no no tables there mostly seating low Furniture to you know uh for people to sit on are you are you I just want are you serving at those seats or no you you will absolutely yeah and the bar that is there now is between those two areas so the the bar that exist is is is over here we're going to construct a new bar as part of uh this is a new bar layout uh slightly slightly larger is there going to be a roof over the entire second floor no no roof it's open yeah like it is today and we'll and you'll see that in the in the elevations and is stair access the same stair access is here yep yep so access here and there's connection back to get to the rear stair as [Music] well stop with you z202 has uh there's no changes here um so I'll skip that one can I ask you about that uh on the rooms on the well all the rooms the first second thir you they were reconfigured in 2010 uh yeah I I I'm I wasn't part of that project now those majority of those rooms appear on your plan to show that there's a bedroom with a door and a living room area which your your marketing documents indicate are also sleeping Arrangements where you would have a pull out sofa in those rooms mhm is that right yeah okay yeah so the the living room space is is a living room space but has a pull out couch and then there's a separate also a sleeping area yeah this is the 203 uh and the really the only change here that I want to point out is this is the existing Sund deck so that's the area that uh Anthony had suggested we want to create a uh a roof over this create a roofed area um so that people are undercover when they're using it it's not really used as a Sund deck quite as much but they do they do have people up there lounging so we want to create a roof that'll be the same roof line as the existing building that we question again on that the plans we received last week do they show a roof on that deck that's it's an existing deck yeah I'm talking about the roof the roof yeah it was yeah do show that mhm yeah it's in the elevations and the roof plan z204 is the uh ground FL is the first floor of the guest the guest house um so you'll see here this is the area that we're we're adjusting so we're taking off a deck and there's an existing stair that has a landing and it kind of comes down and and dumps out right next to the existing driveway uh where we want to take that off kind of bring this back make it more compact make it feel like it's part of the the house and and the look of the house and create this uh these decks for the uh guest rooms to be able to use we're uh also adjusting the uh the stairs for the two egress [Applause] points again uh z205 is the second and third floor again with the change being the uh the addition of the the stair Tower and the uh the balcony landing area required to be able to get to that egress there so that we can have a second ER stair from this building same with uh third floor here so the exterior elevations are really what I think are going to tell the story of what we're talking about here and and the changes so I want to start at ground level again and just talk about the the existing restaurant that is here with the the liquor store so that building is going to remain and then we're going to create this addition here which matches the design and the the architecture that was already there um to create an enclosure instead of that permanent tent structure uh we are changing out guard rails and things like that to make improvements to the building this here this is that sign that uh I was referencing this is the existing pool equipment for the Madison um it's an ability for us to to get rid of a a tall uh the tall Monument sign that exists at the other end with the old hotel's name hotel's name on it and create a new branding Point here for the Madison uh more centrally located we are proposing to adjust some of the roof uh Dormers and change their shape and create a new signage on the top here so creating more of a hip Dormer instead of a Gable and then having a small uh does that new roof add to the height of the building no we are not going above the the existing height we we'll use the same Ridge line that's there no height increase and then over here this is that roof that we are showing that we're adding over that uh roof deck currently so again kind of matching the design of the the facade and creating a new uh is is the access to that still from the inside it's the same access yeah from from the uh I call them terrorist walkways okay what what is the point of that Dennis I'm not sure everybody can hear you can you talk into the mic they can't hear you on the mic what's the point if you will of of having two signs essentially in the middle of the building one right over the other saying the same thing uh so the existing sign that we're taking down that is the Montreal sign is over a story tall it's kind of a big sign takes up a lot of space but it is you can see it um we felt that by creating something that was more on the parking and pedestrian level for people who were walking and and coming up to be able to identify and then we felt it was really important as this the Madison is a resort um that is the the the brand um and to be able to identify for people who are maybe on the beach on the prominade trying to find their way back or looking for the location they'll be able to um see the see the signage and The Branding to to uh to come to our our hotel our you're saying then that do you think it's necessary for those two signs to be there do you really think somebody's going to be walking along the beach and not see where the medison is I think they'll see the building I don't know that they would clearly be able to identify the sign I think that's why the existing Montreal sign is as high as it is um so we felt instead of you know having something that was kind of large and out at the public kind of in the parking lot in that height um lit that we could do something more subtle built into the roof um with the name here for people to be able to identify from f sign in front of the pool equipment Hut is is one of the ones you're asking for variance for is that is that correct yeah yeah we're asking for a variance uh so just some additional views of the building um we are like creating some additional re columns to kind of dress the building up uh we went through HPC with this uh we are changing our finish colors going to paint the building kind of um make it make it feel like the Madison the the resort feel that Dan our client was looking for our rear elevations here again just showing some of that um guard rail work and I call it gingerbread but some of the additional trim that we're going to be putting on the building to uh to help it read and look look better and then a side elevation here so you can see this again is that uh looking at the um outdoor second floor Lounge area above the restaurant bar you can see that there's no roof structure there I guess I guess you know there's another motel called the Madison in town yes yeah yeah prob name's changing as well well okay good please turn on your mic thank you yeah that there is but it's not Madison Resort okay didn't want to confuse the public that's why you need all the [Laughter] signs uh so this is z 601 uh here we're showing the guest house so again um updating some finishes we went through HPC here uh this is the front facade so you're seeing the porch the uh the new stairs um off of the front entrance here on the East Elevation on the North elevation again on an added set of stairs well not added but replaced set of stairs meat code the facade is staying the same we're changing the uh the materials and the coloration approximately how many square feet of stair and deck area are you eliminating forgot to tell everybody to put their phones on you remind you to tell come on that's me I'm calling you to tell you to turn all right sorry uh the stair and deck I don't have the exact square footage uh here I'd have to look I'd have to look for it um but we are taking away what is now like a two- tiered extended stair we're coming back with a Switchback so it'll be a smaller footprint right similar size it'll be uh current code compliant um the deck I think is is a little little bit larger I'd have to double check that to give you that number though I don't have it off top of my head but the decks you're removing is it a a wash with the deck you're adding above the restaurant area now no these these decks there's decks here that we're removing that are coming back and then the restaurant sep the restaurant is getting uh I think the restaurant addition is 923 Square ft that's currently the tented area we're constructing the same square footage and that'll create um the on the second floor that lounge space for the main Hotel this is really amenities this deck is really amenities for this guest house I kind it would be you know rented with it um as part of that for you know if a family or a group was renting it for for the week or two weeks they'd have some private spaces so again this the new staircase here coming down with the new Landings that are created on each floor they come down to a tiered deck we have a higher deck here that then steps down to the lower deck um here again it's trying to bring this in make it more compact with the building match the look of the building but meet egress uh so we had to we had to make some of the heights work with uh with Landings to get that so we could get down the grade bring that down and not have too long of uh runs of stair and our side view again seeing the stair come down so you can see the switch back here that brings us down to this new new deck here which also connects back to the front deck Z 603 these are the sign details so you can see uh in drawing one two and three these are the sign details for for what we're proposing over the existing pool equipment so this is an existing structure that currently has metal roofing on it this is actually the wall in front that exists so that's this here so we're proposing to clad that with brick and some trim and then we'd create this Monument sign to look like a Pergola and trellis uh with the Madison Resort Cap May signage so uh lattice work um painted trim for the sign um and then we have some a section here so you can see this is the existing building so we're really putting this on the low roof and then having some face mount uh uh lighting so no no back letters all the lighting would be from small fixtures kind of grazing it from the front and then uh elevation number four this is the uh Barrel Vault Dormer here with the Madison sign in the in the in the roof in the barrel Vault uh that would be lighting the sign as well and then the signage just just so just so I'm clear that the top one is is a sign it's on top of the pool equipment this is the pool equipment one one on top of the the and this is the building yep yeah so this is on above the the top floor in the center and this is above the pool co could you show on the chart before you show free standing sign [Music] yeah fre standing the freestanding sign is right here so it's next to the stairs that come that are right in front of the uh the tent the restaurant tent structure now that would be the restaurant structure so that is the existing pool equipment the uh kid the the child's pool is right is right behind it currently of the pool equipment Che where's that the large sign theing the existing freestanding sign the one that we're taking down that is over here so you're not going to have any sign at this corner no or the other corner right nothing on a pole was sign in front Madison over here not going to be any sign at the corner not for the hotel no the existing the signs that exist on for the um liquor store and for Harry's the restaurant will remain they're on the building and we show that I'll show them in the elevation yeah I do have a couple 3D renderings I'll show too so this is uh a rendering from the beach so you can see the full oh sorry this is z700 this is additional it is not in the packet it is not in the packet so we'll mark the renderings exhibit B and that there is z700 701 702 and 703 that show the sign I'm going to call it a render color rendering and it's exhibit P so here you can see the existing uh Liquor Store and restaurant you can see our new addition here matching the facade kind of taking that that uh current architecture with the with the window design um the met the metal roof and then here is the uh the extension of that roof deck area that Lounge that we're that we're proposing uh so this is the existing rooftop restaurant area and that's the lounge out front the sign for the pool is right here so you can see that's uh that's where the pool equipment is kind of centered on the building again the children's pool that we're taking proposing to take out is directly behind that with the main pool to the left you can see the uh the roof line here again we're making some changes to make these uh hip roofs so bring them back but keep the same Ridge line and we're adding this Dormer the sign that is here is what's coming down as well as the one on the corner and this is that same roof that's coming out um from this roof to to cover that that existing deck what's that deck going to be used for uh same thing it's used for now they have uh they Lounge up there there's I think some furniture and different events it's it's our hotel guests that use it yeah mainly it's a great viewing space for fireworks and things like that on July 4th is it going to be food service up there there could be but it's normally could yeah but it's light it's for our sheating connected to that food Serv for the hotel guests yeah there could be would be so let's just get this out now because this is where we're a little confused um the seating put that yours have right up on that top left hand corner thing yeah put that aside for a second the the seating on the The Patio that you're extending that's sort of an extension of the restaurant really um that Lounge seating where you're going to be serving food is that are those seats included in the 277 seats they are no they're not they should the 27 the lounge seating are you referring to the lounge seating I'm I'm telling you any seating where you're serving food the lounge seating is not included in the 277 but the testimon is that they're serving food the the lounge seating is there's no tables there's no tables it's drinks and the lounge seating I think he may have been referring to the areas that where there are tables on the that currently exist on on the roof of the of the St right ex all right well I don't think he F that but I don't I don't know I mean let him testify I also want to remind you that seating with respect to is is a seat it's not a table it's a seat and so if you have a seat cocktails in the lounge it's still a seat the code code section 412 tic of the code chapter 412 excludes um from the parking requirement seats in areas such as waiting areas lobbies and seats without dining tables which are measured as tables that are 36 in high located on the Verandas and porches of any restaurant hotel motel in or tourist guest house I thought it says I thought K says this chapter provides for it sayso this is outdoor seating let's let's have let's let's have can I just read can I just read this it says SE but the thing you're talking about says this chapter provides for allocation of existing seeding not the creation of new or additional seeding and that's section K so if you're adding seats to the to that forch and serving food and drink at it it's it's the definition of a seat that chapter defines a seat to exclude Lounge areas I mean if you want to you look at every hotel that has Verandas and lounges the Rockers at Congress Hall the ader de at Congress Hall the chairs at the beach Shack chairs at the lanes chairs thought they existed for the outdoor seating ordinance right right this is going are these seats going to be licensed through that well the ordinance says if it's approved by site plan it doesn't have to be licensed under chapter 412 it's either or so if we weren't submitting for a if we weren't asking for site plan chapter 412 says you can you then come and you get it licensed under the under the outdoor seaing ordinance but if it's included as part of a site plan you don't have to get it approved again and how many seats you have licensed under the outo seat well there's there's two there's 277 seats that are on the meran FI license they're licensed period they're not licensed as out the receips there's 277 restaurant seats that are licensed and they've been licensed since prior to this group acquiring ownership of the hotel somewhere in this paper blizzard we got for the last week There's an approval of a outdoor seating Li uh with the site plan that you had to submit and you paid for that for the permit what does that say about outdoor seats how many seats were in that application I'm not sure are they on the top or are they on the first floor there's there's there's 277 licensed restaurant seats right and we have I have the Merill licenses here can introduce them as iits I think they were included in the package rich as well so I included in the package three past three years of merant licenses that have 277 restaurant seats yeah outdoor seating annual site plan under code 110 for 2023 do you have that is is that seating plan available and and how many seats does that show that's just for outdoor seating I'm not sure what you're referring to this you this is that the the merant license yeah 277 restaurant seats no to no no this says outdoor seating annual per seed fee seating plan required at that's code 110 code 27 is inside seating annual proceed fee seating plan required this is you you gave us this this year yeah okay I just it says 277 on the bottom but how are these seats broken out with respect to the codes it doesn't it doesn't break it out it just says seeding 277 well wouldn't that be Germaine at this point to know what we're talking about here in terms of outdoor seating because you're expanding the outdoor seating we are not expanding out the SE I think what you saying Tony is that fourth floor deck going to be W waitress service dining area or or you can bring your own food up there people can bring can go to the bar and get a drink I mean anywhere in the hotel right people can go to bar and get a drink I mean if I may I think there's a confusion here I apologize I'm just going to jump in on that because you said fourth floor and that's what he's talking so I'm confused if we're talking about the fourth floor or the second floor which is which we're talking about the extension and I think that's I just want to clarify that I think there's a conf confusion of are we talking about the second floor Harry's rooftop or are we talking about the fourth floor Sund deck covered my question was the covered deck on the fourth floor that's what I was asking and there's going to be food service there covered deck no as well covered deck that's all that's a hiking no but that's what he asked is that my apologies you don't order food from the restaurant and get served up there that does not happen we do have guests at the hotel that are seating up there and they eat so the question was is they're seated are we seated and is food served up there yes I have hotel rooms that come right out to that deck and they do use it and they have food up there but uh we do not serve food up there from Harry's restaurant there's no waitresses up there there's no waitresses up there on the deck that's going over the patio that you're calling a tent um that's additional seating now will there be rest will there be waitresses from the other side of that bar coming to that side to serve yes yes but only only drinks cuz there's no tables there there there's no tables for people there's fire pits there's low there's low areas for people to put drinks but there's no dining tables for people to be able to so can they can they order food in that area or not you do order food at that top de no no no I'm talking about the in the Newport the new the new enclosed area this area here they say it's going to be a l sofas it's sofas and low coffee tables for you to put your drinks on I imagine you're saying probably appetiz you know small Fair people aren't eating dinner here table for hotel guests to be able to come and again it's these are for the hotel guests to be able to have seating areas you're saying there are tables there for these Lou not dining tables no there's like coffee tables a set of drink on oh tables though they're not a dining table I believe the code Tony could you give us um the number of seats that were in your plan for code 27 and code 110 they are I don't know what those codes are all I know is the meranti licensees for Harry's Bar and Grill 277 seats and it's been like that since they've owned the property and prior to that so I I don't know what those codes mean they may be maybe par know they may be codes that are used by the licensing office or maybe they're they're UCC codes I have no idea well one code's the inside seating and the other code's the outside seating so can you tell us how many seats are currently inside and how many are outside there's we can count them there's I think there's a I think there's about 100 seats downstairs which are all inside and I think there's about 177 seats upstairs well I mean I I've gone I've tried to count them I think Craig maybe counted 290 but without tables maybe 290 but with with the seats with tables or bar seats which are also included in the calculation there are 277 seats approximately 100 of them are downstairs which are all inside seats and approximately 177 are second floor seats so the seats downstairs that you're saying are inside of that tent you're calling that inside yes all right so when you cover that and you make these uh improvements that you're doing are you changing the footprint of seating and are you changing the bar area to allow more nothing okay no that's staying the same and I think we're a little over 100 seats down there with when count the tent as indoor seating I believe C no bar downstairs under your plan there's an existing bar on the first floor the existing bar stays that's a bar there's a bar near there's there's an existing bar when the if I can just comment on this when the outdoor seaing ordinance was put in place you talk about that in a second I just want to understand can't tell where to at the second Flor sorry grab what floor plan Z2 no that's there seats there's no on z201 we have labeled all of the seats that are considered dining as number 39 that is the note 39 says these are dining seats bar bar uh seats which are all for food service and there is a note 38 pointing to all of the bankets lounge areas couches and cushioned areas that are considered just seating Lounge area okay so all of these things that are 38 you're not C7 correct so these things that have four seats around what appears to be a chable in the middle that's not a seat for this restaurant no it's not for the 277 it's a lounge where someone can come hang out put their feet up have a drink but the testimony and the reality is they're going to be served food just like they are at all the tables that's that's how I understand un but I'm just going back to the ordinance I'm just going back to the ordinance chapter 412 is clear hold hold on for a second I have I have a whole issue with how this is being served to the board the outdoor seating ordinance like there's no mention that you're taking advantage of the outdoor seating ordinance in this entire application at least I didn't see it is there any is there any reference to it if you want us to reference it we're referencing I mean no so so this it's part of the presentation so but but you're now saying you're asking so the outdoor seating ordinance seats can be approved in one of two ways site plan approval from the board right which you're asking the board to do and they're shown on the plan that's correct okay but at there's no mention of you asking for outdoor seating approval none so I didn't do an outdoor seating review um it requires other City officials to look at it Fire official I'm sure when the Fire official looked at this he had no idea that he was reviewing this under the under the outdoor seating ordinance it's on the plan there's no mention that you're asking Outdoors the fact it's outdoor doesn't make it outdoor seating I mean it's this this is why I ask why if there was a roof over this facility there's no roof over it's an outdoor seating location that's correct it's not on the plan on the plan it's we're showing loung seating on the plan C's Point Craig's Point needs to be addressed I I'm just telling you that I have not done any review whether it complies or does not comply with the outdoor seating ordinance there's no mention of it in the application I don't believe the Fire official reviewed it under the outdoor seating requirements I don't believe any code officials looked at it under their because there's several different layers of review that goes into this um you can't just throw it in front of us and tell us tonight that you're doing outdoor seating and taking advantage of section 412 when we submitted the application we we had a narrative of what we were doing and it was shown on the plan I mean this it couldn't be clear Craig I mean okay and so I identify the fact that you're asking there's a whole bunch more seats than what you're showing in your parking counts and therefore I'm I I flagged it as a discrepancy and said you need to resolve this um well that's what we're doing that's that's what what you're telling is it's you're asking for the outdoor seating review you mentioned in your review memo that they show 290 seats on the plan and there's that and we asked for 27 277 okay so we're explaining that it's actually 277 of restaurant seats okay so you're explain which trigger parking requirements and in your Nar tonight in your presentation you said we're we're using um section 412 which is the outdoor seating ordinance I am telling the board that I did not review and I don't think any City officials reviewed the outdoor seating under Section 412 I cannot tell you whether those seats comply or do not comply so I'm just telling the board that I guess I'm not as much mono I mean I def I know you know a lot about out cing and I respect your opinion on that I have a difference of opinion I want ask about a minute on that but where it says 39 calculate 38 are proposed Lounge Furniture to be subtracted out from parking calculations and that's like a 38 so if I look at the 38 it's in the old section uh it's a semicircle and two seats with a table in the middle of it and it's marked a 38 all right I mean right right here there the three semicircles they're like yeah they're like they're they're outdoor sofas all this all this that's in the old existing section where the tensed section exting section why is that not how do we 39 what makes that a 38 not a 39 I I'll tell you in a second I mean is it the height of the table or something it says an outdoor seat of this section shall mean an outo seat at a retail establishment where food or drinks will be consumed so that's the premise right then it says a a it says um seats used as general hotel and restaurant seating area such as waiting areas and lobbies and seats without dining tables right let me finish without dining tables are not considered seats dining table defined as any surface from which individuals from which individuals eat whether permanent or movable and with a minimum height of 30 in and a minimum surface diameter of 36 in so what are the dimensions of that thing on 38 we can provide testimony on that so these are all coffee height coffee table height which is under the 30 the 30 in requirement for a table Tony let me ask you a question when you look at your plan for the second floor of the bar uh there's a railing that runs down are those seats counted in your calculation yes all all bar seat those are all bar seats all bar seats are counted and all dining seats with dining tables are count and on the first floor of your I'm looking at Z on the first and you count those as 39 they're all seats they're all table SE that's that's correct that's that's not a bar that's a bar this is this is the existing bar yeah is that is that going to be a bar yeah yeah it doesn't show that yeah I I'm not sure I understand why it doesn't it's it's it's the same shape it's a it's the bar that's there it looked to me like it was going to be some sort of a service place where you could sit at this bar but is that a is that a liquor surface bar right there yes it's the it's the existing it says existing roof that all those seats there bar seats or seats with tables they were existing they are they have not changed so the existing roof deck has not changed the only thing changing is where it says roof deck addition and that's where they are there are the low seats some of them have low tables but not dining tables so the question can you sit down and eat dinner at those tables not probably I mean people can eat wherever they want people can eat sitting on a park bench if they want but the problem is the ordinance doesn't regulate that as long as those seats are not dining seats at a dining table they're not considered in chapter 4:12 says they're not to be included in your parking cat okay what's this big Square thing in the middle that's the bar that's the bar that's existing are you on the second are you on the second floor know that's okay go ahead I think that's seting big rectangle the middle ex rock on 701 or 201 I'm sorry it's the new bar loc this is the new bar location so there's an existing bar up there this is a new bar this is a new bar so the existing bar and the new bar will be no the this is just this is on the roof deck this is a new bar there is no existing bar the existing bar we were talking about is on was in the ground floor well there was a bar there's a bar up on the second floor there is and we're we're we're taking it it's going away and we're making a larger bars where these seats are located your CL 38 Yeahs Mr what do I do with Section K that says this chapter provides for allocation of existing seating not the creation of new or additional seating on definition of a seat rich I mean that that's why I pulled out the definitions because a this a seat we know what a seat is but a seat for purposes of chapter 412 does not include a a chair that is not with a dining table that's at least 30 in high and 36 in in diameter I mean I sat on that committee for months to develop that outdoor seating ordinance I know what it says and I know what the intent was it was not to penalize hotels and motels and ends from having chairs where people can sit and possibly get a drink as long as there's no dining table with it it's not considered a seat and does not factor into the parking calculations that was the whole reason for that committee that was put together to develop this ordinance and that's the outdoor seating ordinance yes and why is the section on the first floor uh some of those seats up there are 39 well the 39 is a is a is a is a code it says dining seat layout to be counted towards parking calculation that's in but that's in the 277 yeah and if you and if you look at that's not the roof deck addition that's part of what's already there so and when when I go back to cig comy say we didn't tell us I mean all you got to do is read the sheet notes and it's clear in here what was being proposed these are Lounge seating on top of the rooftop this is the only change see did shaded area where it says roof deck Edition that's the only thing being added here and they Lounge seats but you're you're expanding the amount of seats at the bar no this new bar has just as few seats as the old bar oh I'm sorry Mr alicias correct we're reducing the number of tables that are physical dining tables that are on that rooftop to add it to the bar where if you if you go up there today there's a lot of dining tables that are physically on the roof those are being removed creating a larger bar that's actually so the making is increased seating from the old bar that was my question but I'm reducing the dining tables that are on the roof upop to create that number we're not increasing that number above the 277 correct the 277 we've dis we've displaced that 277 differently throughout the plan it's the same 277 for dining we spread we we created a larger bar we took away dining seats we actually have more circulation between our seats so that there's more circulation it's safer everybody's not on top of one another that was the point of the plan spread people out at the tables and allow the the bar to have the more congested area we can take where it says roof deck Edition we can take all the seats off and come back under 412 and get it licensed through the the clerk's office and we we meet all the requirements and it doesn't have to be shown in the site plane if if that that's what you'd rather us do we can do that we were trying to do it easy make it in one step to show it on the site plan either or we can we clearly fall into the permitted areas of of chapter 412 these are not restaurant seats these are outdoor seats the whole ordinance was created to allow just this for hotels motels and restaurants and I just if you want us to do it that way we can do it that way there will be no waitress service serving food on that expansion that you're talking about that you could go and get that roof deck Edition no I mean let Mr Alicia answer the question I'm not um that would I I would never testify that a guest that's staying in our hotel that's sitting up in the lounge seating of the addition is not going to order an appetizer in fact it's a a liquor license e that would not be a good thing so we're not going to I would never say that but they're not served a massive dinner you can't on sandwiches and it's Quick Service stuff it's not in every hotel in Kate May I mean it's not this is no different than anything else I mean correct I mean it's throughout was there an application fee paid for the outdoor seating not a separate Fe well it's required so I mean there I said we we can make this easy I mean I definitely paid all of our fees I can tell you no I mean it's it's something that was not reviewed and there's a whole layer of review the zoning officer supposed to be involved the planning board engineer and City intern attorney shall seek input from the subcode officials Fire Department police department and other such departments as necessary to ensure full compliance with the terms and conditions of this chapter I can tell you none of that was done okay we were not aware I'm just I'm just saying there was we were not aware that there was an application for outdoor seating being pursued in this Anthony would I mean the the the Fire Marshall would would look for the same code compliant uh the same code applies for outdoor seating for egress as it does for restaurant seating so we we they reviewed it to make sure we had proper egress size and egress amounts which I think um would be the same review I would think that would be be happening it me they they reviewed it for the code of the of of egress which is what they're what they're reviewing we we can we can do it you know one or two ways I I thought site plan I'm just letting the board know where we are at at this point they can just determine whether they're going to you know how they want to proceed I mean one suggestion is I mean if you're concerned that the fire U Department did not look at it from that perspective it can be conditioned on you know if it's an approval could be a condition of approval we did we did get a letter from the fire company yeah they they said no problem the Poli said no problem Department we have some comments from the environmental commission and the shading commission which are not a problem and we have a you know the HPC ctual approval so again I I didn't know we needed to say we're also seeking outo seating because it says here that if either get it go through the licensing section or you can show it on if it's not on a site plan and it should be it should be made crystal clear that that's what we're reviewing St I just want to make sure which which which path would you rather take continue on well if if the board has concerns about approving the extra seats on top of that addition my preference if you're okay with this Dan just just remove it from the site plan and then go through chapter 412 and Licensing and get an approval there because it's going to be a little while before that that building is built anyway so I had no problem but I I don't want to hold up the application because of that I can only speak for myself I think it's better to do it as part of the site plan process that way you see the whole project okay and I also think you're asking for a fairly large parking variance I know it's existing I get it okay I know you're saying but you are I mean it does intensify the use of the property okay so by adding 50 uh Lounge seats in an area that is deficient by 100 spaces in parking that that does intensify the use that is relevant in a variance analysis so I think it's better have it as part of the site plan the part that I am not clear on and I am not paying FSE homage here I really am asking you is I thought that the concept of the outdoor seating was for existing properties that had a whole bunch of seats on their patios and everything already and people who wanted to take some of their indoor seats and put them outside so that it's still a 120 seat restaurant but they want to put third of them outside that they can move them outside and then there'll be regulations on where to put them I didn't understand the ordinance to be that you could build what is essentially a brand new addition to a restaurant add 200 seats put the tables at 30 in instead of 48 in and say that's okay under the under the outdoor seating ordinance because I thought section K is I don't think anything to do with the definitions it says outdoor seating as permitted under this chapter should not increase the required parking spaces for any retail food establishment that makes sense only if the next sentence is true this chapter provides for allocation of existing seating not the creation of new or additional seeding so I took this to mean that you don't need new parking because you're simply moving seats around from indoors to Outdoors can you read the definition of outdoor seat I did I did read and it's saying that these that these things you're talking about qualify for outdoor seating no no but it says it says doesn't say they don't they're not seats no it does say that it says for purposes of this section an outdoor seat at a retail food establishment where drinks where food or drinks will be consumed which shall not include shall not include two seats that are limited primarily to Hotel guests seats used as general hotel or restaurant seating areas such as waiting areas and lobbies and and seats without dining tables located on the Verandas and porches of any restaurant hotel motel and tourist guest list they are excluded from the def definition of an outdoor seet so what you're talking about is moving restaurant tables from inside to outside with the same number of dining seats and dining tables without doesn't include lounge chairs it doesn't include low seating and seats that don't have dining tables okay which is I just then what does this mean this chapter provides for allocation of resisting seaing not the creation of new additional seeding why is that sentence there because it's not because it applies to outdoor seating you have to fit into the definition of outdoor seating for it to apply I know you we all think outdoor seating is any seat that's outside but it's specifically defined in the code to exclude loue seating that's clear that definition is okay so that's my argument I mean it's it's what the ordinance says but I think it's just a matter of interpretation of the ordinance and if you need some time to look at that I'm fine with that as well but that's that's that's I you know you I mean honestly you know more about this ordinance than I do you P you probably wrote it okay but I don't understand that sentence and if you wrote it You' be able to tell me what that sentence means I don't know what that sentence means this chapter provides for allocation of assistance not creation of new additional seing I don't know what that means I'm you know Larry hirs was on the committee too and and the concern he had and others is I don't want to I don't want my rocking chairs or my ader deck chairs or my low beach chairs or my benches or my porch seating to be included in that definition because it would I would never be able to meet the parking requirements and that this whole ordinance was developed to try to strike a balance between having some seating outside where people want to be without ex an exacerbation of parking and and the it's not a perfect ordinance because nothing's perfect when you try to regulate these problems but the balance was let's not just increase the restaurants by allowing restaurants to continue to put restaurant seats and tables outside if they want to do that they have to reduce the inside restaurant seats but as far as people waiting for a table or just sitting at a hotel or just passing by sitting at a chair maybe somebody gets a drink maybe somebody doesn't maybe somebody walks up to a bar or maybe they just sit there and it's unfair to try to include all of that seating into the definition of an outdoor seat which exacerbates or triggers additional parking relief Tony that's uh chapter 412 you're talking about chapter 412 yes help me understand this uh under the definition of an outdoor seat it says a seat without dining tables located on the Verandas and porches of any restaurant hotel motel or guest house I are you saying that that new deck you're putting up there is a porch or Veranda same thing is it it's the top of a building it's a porch it's it's a second floor porch Su deck porch the deck porch I mean do you think that's a porch or Veranda what they're saying is if you made all the tables all the 39s all the 38s had 30in tables you'd have no seating on the second on the top Flo de no because it would all be outdoor seat with the exception of the bar seats the exception of the bar seats if you just lowered all your tables 11 in they would all be they wouldn't count towards parking and I just the ordinance seemed to me to be kind of picking up scrap areas like around a pool on a veranda on a porch not and I'm just when you start expanding it next as part of a rooftop restaurant it starts to not make as much sense that's all I'm saying I mean I'm not you know I mean it just seems like they could just you could have a a 8,000 foot restaurant with 30 inch tables and how many how many you know but Dan you have you have entertainment up here too so this is also where Hotel guests can sit and enjoy the entertainment that they if they're not eating that's a whole another issue we get to that it's almost like it's almost like hotel lobbies you don't no it's just you're you're claiming you're claiming that those 38 those uh item 38 seats don't count because of this because they're on a porch or a veranda so you're saying that that thing is a porch or a veranda okay I mean listen I get it concern about the ordinance I mean it's not for the planning board to address that I mean you can question it obviously and and make sure you get the right interpretation well you can go exite plan review with with our attorney is suggesting we do or you can go to 412 but even 412 is suspect so either way you're going to have to deal with the the 38 the quote unquote hash 38 seats it's going to be a parking impact sooner or later either in a site plan or if somebody doesn't agree with your interpretation of what porch or Veranda means the the new areas open to the public or just hotel guest no it's it's open to the public can I go back to just change the subject for a minute uh the uh section on top of the fourth floor with the that's going to have the roof on it now is that going to be used as a venue in any way for receptions or uh exhibits or parties sorry sorry in other words let's say a for example a u 4th of July fireworks viewing party for our hotel guest absolutely and that's going to be catered you're going to be waitress service be food you could have you could have uh cocktails up there I mean it's it's a license premise in the uh for our liquor license but it's not uh it's not open to the general public it's only for our hotel guests got well that's a material it's going to be used for some sort of a food and drink there's a maximum occupancy up there but it could be yeah is a maximum you have there's an occupancy that that is up there absolutely okay but he still saying there's no no there have to well if you do it for a private event for your hotel guest yeah I mean you could have somebody up there I think it's prudent to have somebody up there to monitor alcohol service the hotel guests already baked into the parking because you're the parking is associated with hotel rooms right so that would would that count as an accessory use yes it is an accessory use well it's me that's a I think it's a legal question I can answer that it's yes under the code it's clear well then yeah okay then let's go to uh let's go to number S3 because I don't believe you show that as an accessory use listen we have an accessory use analysis um I know it's on it's on the S3 so now let's get his question in fact I'm I'm on S3 and I'm looking at the accessory use uh existing Hotel versus accessory use proposed uh port for deck is that it it says no accessory use you just said it was an accessory use the fourth floor deck is not an accessory use he just said it was whatever it is it is there's an accessory use analysis in in Craig's report as well as on the plan we have a calculation of all the accessories right you know she that's yeah the one if if I may the fourth floor is not changing use we're not doing anything different than what been done has been done at that property since that fourth floor was put on the property let's be very clear there's zero change it's always been used that way in fact 15 years ago my wife and I came there stayed at the hotel we went up there so there is no change we don't anticipate a change to have people sorry I putting a roof over it putting a roof just putting a roof over it you know what it's it's just to be clear it's probably one of the most beautiful areas to watch the you know the sunset and it's it's unbelievable it is for hotel guests which it's been in use forever so zero change there have been people that have been up there cleaning it up servicing it no change it's the hotel I'm not opening it to the general public I'm just looking at the accessory use chart on the that section there that it says it's not an accessory use Craig is that an accessory use what's that the fourth floor deck it with a roof on it to be used for inhouse on the fourth floor what sheet is it on it's on the she3 the site plan I don't my opinion not more accessory use than the lobby of a hotel is it's just part of or pool it's for guest only right yeah there is no public access to this out unless you're staying in the hotel it's not changing all I'm trying to do is put a roof over it that's all I'm doing here I don't think that's an accessory use I think just part of the hotel it's just like any other lobby area with a bunch of windows but it's open use well okay then then it should go over on this side existing principal use it's not it's not anywhere on the my recollection they were within the 25% anyway yeah they were yes well within well within I don't think it's a excess use now all right every we got to get I mean IES by the way a lot questions I think this is the analysis you need to do and how you decide is up to do I'm not being critical in any way they're expanding this dining area over the new addition the new Ro the new roof it says roof condition okay the new whatever that is the part that they're closing it right they're taking a tent they're putting a roof on it and then they're putting stuff above it and it looks like it's an extension of the restriant a lot of those seats that are in there meet the definition of an outdoor seat it's the applicant's position that even though it is new seating and in addition it still qualifies as outdoor seating it doesn't count towards the parking my instruction I was just I'm sorry Richard I was just the opposite of that our position is is not it is not outdoor seating under the ordinance I thought you said that the ones that are 30 in or less are outoor seating and therefore they don't count towards the parking requirements not dining no not dining they're not dining seats I mean not dining seats outdoor seating okay which doesn't count towards the parking I'm saying exactly what the ordinance says that you wrote I'm quoting you well no no outdor seating was find not to include those chairs those seats it ex outdoor seating says specifically does not include those seats on a veranda seats on a porch of Veranda where there are no dining tables and the whole reason for excluding it from the definition of outdoor seating is because if it's once you call it outdoor seating then you comply then you have to comply with the swap you talked about where you can swap indoor indoor seating for outdoor seating which are restaurant tables and chairs and then if you exceed what's existing it triggers a parking right analysis which we're by keeping it outside of the definition of outdoor seating none of that gets triggered it's still covered under chapter 412 but it's excluded from the parking requirements and it doesn't have to be a swap of indoor for outdoor seats I I got to do some thinking the first all right hold on one second I mean you you can talk I'm going to the first floor enclosed area is restaurant seating correct that's indoor seating that's not outdoor seating first level the first floor is ding seating okay so that's there's no issue with that no it's just what's on top ofing seating now and it's going to when we and that's included in the 277 that's included in the 277 and you're not changing the footprint there you're just doing a different kind of all we're doing is trying to eliminate a uh plastic tent and create it more aesthetically pleasing to create a 12month operation so that we can have the restaurant open 12 months a year which we were almost open 12 months a year this year and next year we will be so all we're trying to do is create a 12-month operation of of Harry okay here here's where you confused me just back okay if these aren't outdoor seats by definition all right then I don't understand why you'd apply for an outdoor seating license these are basically non-existent then right okay so this talk of applying for an outdoor seating license is for when you have seats that qualify as an outdoor seat so then when you're saying we're going to go apply for outdoor seating license as I understand it the way you're reading this you can have an unlimited number of unlicensed seats that are 30 inches or have a table that's 30 inches or less and you call them a lounge and you have an unnumbered limited that they're unregulated because you don't apply for an outdoor seating license because they're not outdoor seats so there's unlimited unlimited number of them you don't even need to show them on your plan and I wouldn't say it's unlimited I still think we need to show them on a site plan and I still think it needs a fire department review which it has gotten right I mean we just can't line up seats in a small area and not expect to have a concern I I understand I'm just pointing out that a half hour ago the plan was I'll just take the other plan and we'll get an outdoor seating license but this doesn't require an outdoor seating license as you're describing these seats they're less than 36 inches in diameter less than 30 inches high the tables and the seats are Lounge seats so that they don't even need to get a license under the outdoor seating license and that may be that that excludes them from the outdoor seating license but does it exclude them from the parking count in the general zoning code that's what that's what I'm saying this I don't think it does no it does the outdoor seating is for things that are under the outdoor seating license but these aren't that they have to be out they're outside seats though it can exclude them either one or the other it's got to be one or the other let me just focus on on if you want to include every chair where somebody sits in the parking calculation you'd have to change everything in Kate May every restaurant and every hotel has outdoor seats pools have Chase lounges they're not out the receipts because it excludes them so you can put a thousand Chase lounges on the lawn at a hotel and say wow they're not outdoor seats therefore but but you have to get a parking space for every Chase lounge or every four Chase lounges it makes no sense I mean you have hotel lobbies that have couches that have chairs that have waiting areas restaurants have waiting areas benches I mean people sit all over the place as their waiting to eat as they're waiting to to to get maybe get a seat at the bar or if they're just sitting on a rocking chair and enjoying the view that doesn't trigger a parking analysis it never has right so I I'm coming to understand this clearly now it doesn't make sense to me but this is what it says so you could put full-size tables there if you got a outdoor seating license correct an unlimited number of them with without regard to parking but whatever this thing says per square fo full full size tables if you put we'd be limited to the 277 so if we wanted to put tables and chairs restaurant tables and chairs in that new new seating area we' have to take them from somewhere else or it would trigger an additional parking requirement which means we have to get another variance for parking we don't want to increase the parking requirements now you can argue that whether that's a small chair at a at a little table or whether it's a big chair at a dining table there's still people it's still parking I understand that but it's not a perfect ordinance but it wasn't meant to be perfect it was meant to try to strike a balance between the way hotels operate and the concerns of the city with with parking so okay so that's kind of where it where this ends up then and the instruction I give the board SE who pass this issue is that the testimony and the plans demonstrate that these uh the ones Mark 38 are not they're neither seating for the restaurant nor outdoor seating they they don't count at all towards parking I do think that when someone's seeking a parking variance um it is fair to consider an intensification of the use such that a property that has no um I'll call it Lounge seating that's the word I'm going to use for things that that below these threshold that has 400 Lounge seats versus something that has no Lounge seats and each of those have 30 parking spots short I think you consider them differently in your balancing and and all that um but I I think that Mr monzo his analysis is correct under this I think fidly flawed ordinance that would allow a full 5,000 foot deck of unlimited seating with 30inch um tables and not be a restaurant but um the under the ordinance he's correct that these do not these 38s do not trigger additional parking requirements so I agree with that and that's fair so when you're doing your your analysis of the variant I think it's a factor to consider but your ordinance is telling you that you shouldn't count those towards parking and In fairness to the applicant if the ordinance says it shouldn't count towards parking it really shouldn't be a huge factor in your balancing because someone made a determination that outdoor seats don't affect parking that much and it's worth it to have outdoor seats so you know you got to consider that as well is that everybody understand it now yeah I want to push back on that why would anybody think that uh having outdoor seats doesn't impact parking in a place that's already 100% over its required number of parking spaces I I don't see that at all well I mean I think part of it is whether an application where there is a I've been saying all along that what's going to happen Som days people are going to create whole restaurants of things that don't qualify as seeding under these definitions and then where are you going to be right so it's this is sort of almost there um but it does make some sense as Mr monzo articulated at the time they're doing it I mean if you look at Congress whole and all the cool places we go you grab a drink you sit in the lounge chair right should that be should they need a parking spot for that and if they do you're talking to hundreds of parking spots parking spots for seats around around pools and on Verandas and then they won't have any outdoor seating people to sit out cuz it'll count against the parking so then you won't have rocking chairs so the idea was to strike a balance okay it may be an imperfect ordinance because if everybody just starts adding 5,000 feet to their outdoor restaurants and putting Lounge seating there then you're going to have huge restaurants that require no parking and that's going to be a problem so you know it's something to consider as you revisit well there would never be restaurants because if they were restaurants there'd be tables to eat the food at you're talking about you're talking about like Festival spaces uh I'm talking like for example what bars did during but if you go to the beach Shack there's hundreds of people sitting on in in the beach area there eating at 30inch tables although I thought we counted that towards their number of seats but what do I know didn't we they handled it a little different for the beack was it in The Barking calculation it was in the parking was in the parking yeah yeah that's why the inside of the place is empty can I ask a question the stairs going up to that top deck The Waitresses have to carry the food up and down there's no other access for food to get up there there is there is sorry I got to remember to turn the mic on uh there is they can they can access it through the the rear of the building as well but they don't they use those steps but you do have M you have two access points there I I my concern and I see the fire signed off on it you're the amount of people going up there is going to be huge and uh with waitresses bringing more food because of that extension of deck um those stairs present a problem for me I talking about the front you're talking Front Restaurant excuse me you're talking about the front restaurant upstairs the stairs to go up to that top deck if you've ever been there those stairs are wicked and now you're going to have more waitresses with more food going up because the space has been expanded that I don't know if that's what he said I mean I you're talking about the fourth floor deck no all right I'm looking at this building the it's 900 sare ft it's 923 Square ft right it's probably what half this building half this floor so half this building so on the second floor of this is going to have seating I'm you know I'm sure at head Pack's parking a little bit but I don't know I mean the first floor first floor seating in is included in the 277 but half this building with with just L seating upstairs I'm not so sure how much that impacts anything okay I mean it's could be people walking off the street could be anybody I mean I'm just looking that's that's what it is that's how much area we're talking about we're not talking about a big expanse of you know hundreds and hundreds of square feet it's 900 square ft it's not even a size of a Rancher I don't know that's just my thought may I ask a question so if I didn't have Lounge seating and I just put 100 rocking chairs up there and it met the fire code and I just put 100 rocking chairs or out of RCT chairs it would be okay you probably have to get a uh an outdoor seating license every year I I'm just confused I'm very confused what you're not perhaps not appreciating as much as you should is that you're already egregiously under the parking requirement so everything you do that intensifies the use of that property affects the balancing for V parking so it's not that you have compliant parking and you're adding some Lounge seats and it's whether that's a problem it's that every time something new happens on the property it pushes the envelope against the deficiency in parking doesn't mean you should lose I'm just pointing out to you that yeah if you were to put a 100 lounge chairs there in a property that's has 100 short on parking that can be a problem whereas in another property where they have compliant parking and they put under lounge chairs that might not be as big a problem so when you're already deficient you need to approach your project with with the humility appropriate for being 100 parking spaces short that's what they're trying to say that's all I and I totally understand and just to be I just want to make sure that I'm very clear this entire project was all about really respecting and loving what is K back right so if you look at and and that was actually what the HPC had said to us was Thanking us for really respecting what Kate May where Kate May needs to be instead of quote an oversight oversiz Howard Johnson so we're trying to respect that and and we do that question about we okay put no no but I was I was bringing it up just I was actually backing up what was said earlier was if we took away lounge chairs and put rocking chairs like are throughout the entire city of you know the entire city of Kate May that would be okay so I'm just trying to understand what you you want to see and what you don't want to see just to be really clear I got to say this again I'm so sorry but we're like really great Community Partners so I'm not here to fight and go back and forth about what is at all I mean we we we do a lot in this community just to be clear including 1400 service hours to the city of Kate May last year alone from our one property so we give back a lot each and every single day um we're not here trying to cause waves we think we have a and I think we're getting caught up on this rooftop I I but you know we have a house that's behind us that we really want to beautify that's really a part of it so there's a whole purpose here of trying to make this property gorgeous but I mean I I just wanted to ask that question we're we're not I'm I'm not here looking for the back and back and forth can I comment there sure um we're we're restricted to in a lot of ways by looking at what the statute the ordinances say we have to do um part of the reason Kate May has the massive parking problem it has is because over time not you not you guys not anybody in particular but over time there has routine ly bin variances granted that absolves a property from any responsibility for the off street parking that that's required to have under the code it's a fact it's h it's K May history it's the reason why K May's number one problem is a parking problem uh we don't have the luxury of ignoring that we we have the luxury of granting variances if if it's a reasonably stated position but when you have a property that's already 100% over its required off street parking assessment it's difficult to understand why we should be adding more cars to the streets of CA of Kate May that's the situation we're in and we agree with you I agree with you that that you guys have done a marvelous job as community members but the fact is that that too often and on too often and on a regular basis variances have been granted to folks who don't who then don't follow the ordinances and the Cape May deals with that problem not the own not the not the applicant not the business it's Kate May that deals with that problem and the problem's insolvable there's no there's no way to solve it now because our ordinances are defective to a point of identifying causes and and solutions we're stuck with a couple of ordinances that are uh in some cases 50 years old so that's the situation we find ourselves in it's not because we're trying to break break anybody's Stones about anything the the problem that and we haven't gotten into par parking yet at all this in this property but the problem that you that you see is that when an application is already 100% over it's required parking spaces what more is going to happen to that property and what's going to be the impact of Kate May especially if you're looking at people who are going to be attracted and I go here all the time attracted to a fabulous operation up on top of that roof but it's going to be it's going to be a draw and it's going to bring people from all over the the Cape May area Cape May County area and that's it's going to be a parking problem it's going to be a parking problem worse than the one we have now well we're not we're not we're not the only Shore Community that has parking problems you go up you go up and down every town will tell you I agree with you completely but the only the only zoning ordinance that we're responsible for is Kate May oh okay well we're not I'm just saying we're not alone the other thing is was talked about years ago before you were on the board and we never ever did anything was when you have a motel with it accessory uses we never put anything in the ordinance that allowed for an overlap that people staying there would be using the restaurant or miniature golf course or whatever it was we we counted each individual use and said that's how many space you have to have so we never we never allow the ability back off back off which which makes sense but we don't do that so to say it's 100% over is a little bit of an overstatement because it's it's a fair it's a it's a fair statement using the ordinances as we have them now but it's not to where it's actually physically being us I totally agree with you Bill but my my my next statement probably is something that the committee ought to think about doing and is to reexamining these ordinances to bring them up to 21st century right requirements and that's one of the things we looked at in a master plan it's it's actually in the master plan that we would examine these ordinances with with respect to parking we should be doing that we should be making a a recommendation to fill in these holes where these problems occur all the time instead of and this is nobody's fault but instead of just giving a variance and and letting it drift down the line and I mean that our job as a planning board is to plan well let's we've where we are right now is is rich is advising us that we have to treat this as if it does not trigger additional parking is that is that your it does not trigger additional parking requirements but it is an intensification of a property that already is deficient in parking and you consider that as part of your analysis but you have to consider the things that the other members are saying that it's a relatively small area also it is a valid point Mr bazer talked about that when we have two uses the way we do is add them together but a lot of the guests also use the bar so that they're not really parking there um it's also along the prominade which is a popular walking area so not everyone drives so you got to factor all that into your analysis of how much intensification really is this um and balance that against the other improvements that you've heard from the applicant and that's your job is to is to do that and and you know so it's a even though I have some concerns about that the way that Ordinance Works that shouldn't affect the fact that your your ordinance is telling you that parking that doesn't trigger seating that doesn't trigger parking in your weighing shouldn't be that big a deal when it comes to parking because your ordinance is already telling you that it's not that big a deal so you have to give that fair consideration I mean it's some things are bigger deals about parking than that and and the ordinance says that you shouldn't get too hung up on seating that isn't dining seating so I think what we should be doing is moving forward there there's other variances other things to discuss we can beat this all all night long but I I kind of think everybody knows where I just want to ask a question about the parking the parking that you have in that parking lot that goes out by the house you'd like to renovate are you reconfiguring that you're adding three parking spaces I believe you said I don't have the is that being torn up and you're putting in a new machanum or anything what what's happening there ask Morris to answer that question I apologize I just don't know how that it's laid out uh yeah so I'm going Andy I'll just use your plan cuz it's here so right now there is a a drive lane that comes through and connects to this back parking lot um so it's it's currently used as as an I believe an in or an out um but it connects to this parking lot it comes all the way through here if you look you can see the existing lines we are going to take that section out so that there's not drive-thru traffic there because this is more of a residential street we wanted to take that away we want to use two of the space we want to use use part of it to create two stacked spaces that would be employee parking and then we pick up one new parking spot right here at the end where this was the drive lane we didn't want to add any more um we wanted to create that buffer that additional Green Space uh part of some of the things we are doing is creating more green areas where we can where we're taking away the sign and things so that we can add additional vegetation on that drive through anymore drive-through goes away so stacked employee parking employee parking someone who's going to be here for long duration um probably management you know someone in the lobby um that that's there for for a long time and no electric vehicle parking spaces are being put in there's ex they're already in there we have an existing um EV station already I usually ride my bike there so I don't know oh okay yeah we do have one at we are we actually are planning we're actually planning to add more very good thank you I see I want see clarification of Rich could you uh clarify uh the stack parking by our ordinance it's only it's only permitted in Victorian hotels is is that correct it's not permitted for a commercials I mean it's it's only permitted by code if it's a Victorian Hotel single single families it's pered dup Victorian hotels it's permitted it's not permitted for Commercial Hotel restaurant type use okay you want to move on to the variances yes why don't we do that I want to have Andy uh schaer handle that part of it I'm assuming has heard from Mr sha previously and accepts him as an expert yep we good yes sir so why don't you start Mr Schaefer just by giving an just a real brief summary the I do I want to give a generalization first so we are asking for a lot of variances however most of them are can be characterized as a reduction in the amount of the non-conformity associated with that variance parking for instance uh the use in the guest house reduces the need for parking by one space that's only one space and we're adding three so the net benefit in favor of the town in terms of non-conformity and parking is four spaces total and one other thing about the parking too that we don't get credit for and it was mentioned um is the use of the restaurant seating by Hotel guests I don't know what that percentage is but it's not in significant either where we're at a 2:1 ratio being short on parking counting it the way the ordinance requires but count it but in reality there's going to be a a fairly significant percentage of the guests in the dining room that are Hotel guests also which reduces the requirement in parking how much it probably varies that's Bill's point it it does but it does happen and so so the the parking is one of the big things we're not exacerbating any setbacks the benefit uh and I'm going to jump ahead to the end of the story here first the benefit to this is an aesthetically much more pleasing building a re Rehabilitation of the guest house it's at Stockton Avenue and and just a better flow of use inside also so it's going to be an inside outside major development of improvement and I I'm also going to at the end of this demonstrate I believe through testimony that there is will be no detriment and none at all to the impact of what we're doing so so why don't you uh just start off with the setback experiences and these are M these are on Stockton and at the guest house yes Stockton and so the minimum building setback required to stock in 20 ft the the application is proposing you the renovation of the of the guest house that exists with a zero setback we're not exacerbating that we're not improving that one either then Additionally the applicant is proposing to reconstruct the trash enclosure again a beautification with a setback of 16 ft with 20 as proposed and the stairs on the guest house with a setback of 2.5 ft next variance the maximum lot coverage is 75% We Exist with all the proposed improvements which some are Landscaping we currently have a coverage of 93.5% we're proposing 93.5 excuse me I need better glasses where 94.3% uh exists or is proposed it's the other way around way4 I'm sorry yeah I did read it backward so we're proposing 93.5 94.3 exists and if we follow Craig's idea a of filling in the U um Kitty pool with Landscaping rather than concrete that'll bring us down to 92.9 I think I finally got that straight what was that number 92.9% all right so the third one um parking based on the plan submitted a total of 10272 parking spaces are required and I believe Craig and I agree with on that which is actually one less than was required before the conversion or the proposed conversion of the guest house current off street parking is 88 and we're proposing to bring that to 91 through reorienting the existing paved area around the guest house and also eliminating the impact to Stockton and in U what I want to call it residential area that right now has through traffic able to flow in and out of that parking lot onto Stockton Building mounted sign signage not to 20qu ft as permitted the applicant indicates two new sign proposed for a total of four signs with 52 ft sign each proposed existing conditions there are presently two signs totaling 15 square foot we were reducing the number of free standing signs to uh from 5 to two and the square footage from 72 to 30 square fet so the signage decrease is fairly significant compared to what's existing there now one free St another variance one freestanding sign is permitted and the sign may not exceed 20 square feet which we already covered and the applicant has proposed two new signs with a total area of 30 square feet and a variance has been requested for that and as I just mentioned there are currently five signs totaling 72 square F feet next a buffer planning strip of 5 ft minimum is required for the parking areas the three new proposed parking spaces near Stockton Avenue at the guest house are not being provided with a required buffer now I will stop for a second because uh the two parking spaces were proposing here that are stacked uh we didn't offer anything but a grass strip between that and the neighboring house and I think that that was a mistake it should have a fence in landscaping probably the fence on our side and Landscaping on the resident's side don't you don't they own they that building as well yes it'll be all one project which you talking about the guest house well they you two buildings in don't you just one of the Corner no we don't own this one okay okay that covers the buffer strip um next item parking is also required to be located behind all required building lines um the applicant has proposed two parking spaces within the front setback along Stockton Avenue and three parking spaces within the sidey yard setbacks um a lot of this is already existing too some of our parking actually fronts on Madison and Beach which is not the best condition to have but it's existed this way for a very long time um I'm just curious once that driveway is uh not a driveway anymore next to the guest house yes won't that create another parking spot on Street uh no because the driveway already exists they have to access that yeah the driveway still exists okay I thought you were doing stock parking there yeah let let me uh demonstrate right you said that's employee only parking I think this is on the Stacked parking the Stacked parking is employee only it access is from Stockton the area that used to extend into the parking area is going to be removed and landscaped okay I thought you I thought you said you were closing off the access from stock well we we're closing off the access of that driveway to the existing parking area I see okay so and the people who live in the house are parking where I assum in their driveway that that that people in this in the guest house in the guest house where's the parking in the main parking lot in the main parking lot yes I I I really am not in a position to answer that one as to how that driveway is being used now but right now it is a through driveway yeah it's it's an it's an access it's it's an access it's not a parking area all right the last variant swimming pools shall be set back from the front property line by a distance greater than the actual front yard setback of the principal structure they applicant is seeking to modify the pool equipment shed with a proposed sign above the located um structure so again the pool equipment currently exists right yeah right here Green Block that's where the current location is they're building the sign structure over that pool equipment to one hide it so it's visually becomes invisible and also it'll reduce some of the noise that it creates so let's go through the proofs needed for the variances take certain start with the setback yeah now one thing about the proofs the proofs we're going to get for the setbacks are pretty applicable to all the variances we're going to be covering okay okay setbacks so the existing building is a lawfully built existing structure and it contributes to the historic district we're restoring it HPC approval so far in a in a form that's going to be appropriate for the neighborhood so it is it's kind of an exceptional situation and unique to this specific site because it's been an older structure that's been existed this way with even zero setback in one condition one peculiar uh circumstance and it creates difficulties that can't be overcome there it's truly a hardship and this this will apply to the other variants too which I will quickly rather than going through the whole process every time and as far as a C2 balance um the sections of of land use that are Advanced it's item a to encourage Municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which will promote the public health safety morals General W welfare this is clearly been a restaurant bar uh hotel and it's going to continue to be only a much higher quality one to provide adequate air light air and open space and I think we've proven that since we're reducing the impervious coverage and replacing with Landscaping that that speaks to that and we're also not making the building any higher than it currently is item G to provide sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of Agriculture residential recreational commercial and Industrial uses and again we're providing these uses in an area of high um visitor location for their advantage as somebody already said here tonight this will become a bigger destination than it already is item I to promote a desirable visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design I think that's clear from the architectural plans that have been submitted and then verified by the fact that it's gone through the HPC item J to promote the conservation of historic sites districts open space energy resources in so forth and so on obviously this is is creating or a preservation of a historic structure and actually making it look more fitting to the neighborhood any negative uh substantial negative impacts detriment as I said at the beginning of my testimony I can't find any detriments to the Zone plan in this or the public good in this case so under the balancing tested uh the the benefits outweigh that yes there is no detriment to public good and the impairment of the intent and purpos of the municipal zoning plan and ordinance and it's there is no impact that I can find this is only a positive in every way some of the bulk requirements are made a little less non-conforming and I think we've identified some of the uses here that might go on in future planning uh in terms of ordinance development let's move on to the loot coverage again for the same reasons the the property is is totally developed or actually reduced in the coverage with you know around a th000 square feet several percentage points but it is a reduction which is an environmental and storm water management uh issue in a positive and I believe it's an exceptional hardship uh that we can't overcome because it's already here so this improves the existing conditions I it it improves the existing conditions it Advance purposes of zoning yes for the same reasons already stated and negative criteria apply same I I can't find any negative impact to the site let's look on I mean we talked we spent a lot of time on the number of parking spaces we might have so I want you to just just to focus on variance and just I mean looking at not not only what was discussed but you know your your other U opinions as with respect to to parking in this situation certainly so this structure has landed here as a legal structure on the site and it is and uniquely it impacts the area because that has been able to grow the way it is and any major development that you create should at least try to improve the situation and I believe this does by a factor of four parking spaces but the one factor we don't uh which is more significant than that is we don't employ the use of we we consider all the uses separate as opposed to overlapping as was mentioned before between hotel guest and Hotel restaurant guests being the same people and using the same parking space so just on the parking for just a couple questions and U and you've done a lot of work in Kate May in terms of these types of issues parking it seems to always be an issue yes you know the board obviously has seen a lot of it as well but in your opinion does do you view the patrons and Kate May more more and more walking to destinations as opposed to driving especially those that live in I do and I can use myself as one of those examples because we come down here fairly often ourselves it's it's it's an hour ride for us to be here but we don't even bother trying to park downtown we we're still kind of young so we park out in the on the residential areas that don't have cars jammed up on the streets and we'll walk eight or 10 blocks you know it's part of our it's part of our stick to come down here in the first place is to get a nice Walkin and sometimes the bicycles but we still don't park down town it's just we figure at this age a younger person they ought to be in our neighborhood out out of town so the the people that are actually staying in town would have a much easier time walking to a destination well I don't know if they're much easier but they have at least one car to their benefit so the purposes of zoning on on the parking variants can you elaborate on that as mentioned before again it's an improvement to an already difficult situation but it's heading in the right direction so you talking about excuse me are you talking about the parking with respect to the the old house or the whole project what's the combination of the whole project all right maybe I should ask you to clarify then uh on your site I'm on sheet number three you add a space um you add a space on that property side mhm side and then you're you're saying the two stack parking would be the three correct right on one sheet you have 10 spots along this way and on sheet two you have nine spots along this way right on the street side on this side yeah this sheet here sheet sheet two has nine spots along that way and Sheet three has 10 spots along this yeah I'm not we have you do so this is the the better one to look at yeah actually yes sheet is existing oh you know what sheet is the ex PL a survey that is what's there right now nine and there's 10 there yeah I'm sorry there was nine there now okay all right and then in the back side there you have three of the spots which are currently occupied by a storage container and I don't know what it's in there I didn't look but yes there dumpster there and then you have four spots out front by the office which are labeled as 15 minutes only correct I okay then you have these spots along Madison which are all labeled compact cars only yes is that is that the way it works yes okay and you also have one two three four five six spaces in front of the uh liquor store which are actually 15 ft is that that's correct so they're not they're not code either right code supposed to be 18 right that wased didn't you are correct some of the SP spaces existing and proposed are undersized okay uh along Madison and these ones in front of the liquor store yes correct and then there's also no sidewalk between the parking space is in the curb there's no curb that's a driveway that's correct right now let me ask you this question and go back to testimony of a a while ago that said in 2010 the rooms were all upgraded I'm not going to ra just three three rooms I think it's we're going to I'm sure we're going to three three guest rooms if if you look at your if you look at the plan and you look at your marketing plan uh those I think the testimony of of this gentleman here was that there's a there's actually two sleeping rooms a bedroom separated with a door and then a pullout sofa in Suites as you call them right it looks to me I might be wrong here but of the 70 rooms you have here 50 of them are sweet arrangements with the front side has the pullout sofa you you might be accurate I mean count according to the code and I'll ask for some expert opinion on this Craig Maybe according to the code which requires a parking space for every sleeping area shouldn't those shouldn't those 50 actually require two parking spaces because there's two sleeping areas it's it's a not a bad R it's a it's a hotel room with a sleep sofa that has a a yeah somebody it says guest sleeping room yeah in the ordinance yes and and if you put and if you put a pull out sofa I'm not trying to make a problem here but if you put a pull out sofa in a room and you tell me it'll sleep six then somebody's not going to somebody's going to be sleeping in that room which is a sleeping room I don't I don't know what the I don't know what else to tell you you can ignore it if you want to but it sounds to me like if I if I may um what you refer to our marketing plan they' have been sleeping sofas when the property was redone I didn't change anything I replaced just to be clear so I'm not saying anything against you because you're new to the scene I get that but the point is I know somewhere along the line when the rooms were recast as suites with a sleeping area in the front and a sleeping area in the back uh maybe the city fell down on the job and said well that's two sleeping areas that's two parking spaces that's not that's not what's happened and I can tell you for instance summer station the same thing there's one spot per unit there they've got two they've got a living area plus plus a bedroom there's there's other motels that have the sweet Arrangement well and it's I get it I get it because they are traditionally traditionally dentist we've we've counted motels as one parking space for each guest sleeping room whether it has another living area that you know the kids can sleep there at night or whatever but it's it's got a living room got a kitchenette in there or whatever it is it's it's it's it's a multipurpose room but our ordinance says for each guest sleeping room yeah so situation you've rented the room you have your two kids you say to your friend hey we have a sleeping couch here come on down there's another car and two more people with with this situation I I don't know what you're suggesting bill should we say that's really not a concern of the planning board that there's a there's now a 21st century Arrangement where where up to six people can sleep in a I'm saying is it's existed for 50 years and and that and that's what's been allowed so to question it now is I mean the horse is out of the barn if you want to put it that way but it's it's not something we can go back to and say well wait a minute now now now now now you got to come into 22nd century where the hell we're in now 22nd century um it's it's it's existing it's it's been existing and and Dennis yeah in town that don't have driveways there's they don't have driveways do we have to tell them P of the house driveway I understand what you're saying but if every one of these situations comes up to a planning board and it's the same response every time then why not why do we have that code why don't we change it why don't we look at because they're not adding anything they are they are not adding adding extra sleeping spes if a hotel says they they now can sleep six people in a what once was a hotel room then they are adding something I guess can't I guess I can't bring my kids then what's that I guess I can't bring my kids then sure you can but Mike that's not that's not the point I'm trying to raise they've been this this is this most of these motels all operate the exact same way throughout the whole they all operate under a a code that's Antiquated and has these kinds of we can't penalize this guy for that that's not fair to him we can't penalize this guy for that arbitrary and capricious to change that now for this application it might be it might be it could be all right but but the point is we have a situation in real time that if we don't do something about changing the code to make it more conducive to the way we analyze development in this town then we're going to have variance after variance and if if every application is a set of variances then there's no point in having a code that's that that that's also an unfair statement because so much of the development Kate made predates zoning and it's and it's a mish mash all over the place so it's unfair to say you can't they can't follow the code to a T why even let them come in this is slightly off the off the topic but take a look at our parking code no it's not it's not really that off the topic take a look at our parking code if you want to look at an Antiquated ordinance it's not fair to have this conversation in front of an applicant it's not it's not here's what I'm looking at they're adding they're adding they're adding four rooms someone's applying for something that somebody could use against them I I get that but if somebody lays a set of plans and shows that 50 of the 70 rooms are are actually two-bedroom Suites then then do we ignore that or do we say what's that all they're not they're not two they're not two bedrooms there's not two bedroom suites and and many of these rooms just have a just have a king bed and and a pull out s aull keep a record we got to keep an accurate record so please they're not just to be clear pull out s I'm literally saying one person speak at a time so please one person speak at a time into the mic with your mic well I guess it's academic because even if you did do this you're still 100% over your parking requirements so uh according to the code according to the code they are you're right yeah according make the calculations they're not guaranteed a parking space they absolutely are they're they receive they receive a parking pass we regulate it by a parking pass that they have to to show um we do not have I we have somebody that monitors our lot uh to make sure that nobody's parking in the back lot now you know but we don't there's one one car per room that's that's that's the and they're not sleeping rooms I I I must say the Suites are defined because there's a separation there's a door but there's a couch which is a sofa which yes you can sleep your children uh in it but it's not not allowed to come anymore but it's not a um but you live around the corner Mike you don't need to go to a hotel I don't have rooms in this hotel that have six beds in it I mean that's that's not what we have I'd also like to clarify that uh we are we're reducing from in the house we are reducing from five rooms to four so we're actually reducing over there I think the real argument here is if I came to you and said hey I want to have a 150 room hotel please and I don't have any more parking I think that's a bigger that's that would be the issue not what I currently have had and what's been in existence since the 60s well the parking number at 70 Craig needs to at least reflect the fact that some of these rooms have two bedrooms in them and I don't think the plan shows that it's not they do not have two bedrooms two they don't have two bedro the parking requirement based on guest sleeping rooms um I didn't see separate rooms for the pull out couches or you got one door going into a suep yeah there's one hotel room in the entire property that there's one hotel room that is rent out it's called the Madison Suite is a two-bedroom that used to be the owner's quarters that always had two bedrooms always that I didn't change anything in that space it was always two bedrooms um all I'm saying is the number seven doesn't catch that that's all it who doesn't catch it the number 70 doesn't include those two bedrooms in the Madison Suite It could only includes one that that's not once again that unfortunately it's that's not true it's actually not true okay so i' be happy to have anybody come and walk and count every single room that I have on the property but we we actually don't we uh are license says we have 70 rooms I've only sold 69 rooms since I did that room so that's a that's an inaccurate statement my apologies but it is it's I think I think what he saying is that's a two bedroom unit as opposed to the others are but I'm permitted to to sell 70 rooms right 70 to the to the general public I sell 69 well be CLE my in my mind what we what we're really looking at here is they are reducing the house from five bedrooms to four and they're picking up three parking spaces all the other stuff is white white noise it's that that that's the gist of what we're doing tonight right I don't know how else to sort of try to simplify well is there four more parking spaces or there are there are nine Vari the testimony was four there's three more parking spaces but the need for one less than before which puts us to the positive a net of four parking spaces okay you so this guest house may I ask you're going down to four uh bedrooms the it exists now as like five little apartments is it was for uh workers as I that is correct so now in changing it to the four bedrooms is it becoming a whole house rental or are you still doing just four Apartments I'm I'm not clear on that it it varies but predominantly it would be a whole house I'm sorry predominantly it would be a whole house but it could be rented out as four separate guest rooms correct correct actually the the concept or the model that we were looking at was the bed and breakfast is that have gone away this was kind of the thought process of this house was bringing back a bed and breakfast um style to that house but it could be rented out as a whole house or individual for with you know breakfast service in the morning it is there a kitchen is there is there is is the uh employee housing being relocated elsewhere yes we have an agreement uh out in uh Wild Crest okay GRE you want to go with your comments are they done their presentation we just we have a just we still have some more Varian sorry I thought we why not yeah why not the the um doesn't doesn't can you move on to the signs and sure okay but so this is a fairly large property that faces two main streets in Cate May and with this will enable people wanting to visit quickly spot the location from either a pedestrian or or vehicle wise the building mounted roof sign I'll call it and the freestanding sign which is down at street level and by the way the top of that sign is uh at at roof level of the additional restaurant being added it's not a super tall sign so it really is trying to Target two different viewpoints viewing angles uh for the site and as a whole it is a reduction in the number of signs as well as the reduction and the total area of the signs but we believe they're more strategically placed the way we have them on the plan now than they currently exist so from a purposes of zoning analysis it would cover would for the same reasons and and in particular to encourage Municipal action to guide the appropriate use or development of all lands in the state in a manner which will promote the public health safety Mortals General Welfare meaning it's going to be easier to find the site by name with the signs proposed as compared to what is there today and just changing the name on the sign and just for the again to clarify that the other freestanding signs that were on each Corner yes they're no longer they're removed they're being removed the uh so negative criteria can again I see only positive uh here and no negative impact so from a balancing standpoint to satisfy C2 criteria yes in C2 in my opinion the benefits far outweigh the detriments uh I want to take the three other variances that deal with parking buffer set back and stacked and this is mainly the um Guest House correct address them correct and and again um I think we can address the one while it still would require a variance of put screening on the um by adding screening between the existing house and the existing driveway that will now become parking as well as the buffer to Stockton is being that that that's not on the plans right now no it's not it is not but after reading Craig's letter I realized it was really an a mission on our part and for before he has a chance to ask for it we're going to offer that it it deserves to be there for the homeowner next door good he's going to put between me but even without that it the impact to the home on our next door is less because cars will be parking there rather than driving in and out which is less noise and less impact and purposes of zoning are pretty much the same again they're the same and so the the the purposes of zoning outweigh the that yes the benefits far out way the detriments which I don't believe there are any detriments and the last one is the pool equipment the pool equipment I think this is largely um an improvement first of all it's an existing non-conformity in that the pool equipment is where it is but we're building a structure over the top of it to surround it uh on all five sides to well the four sides plus the top top okay trying I'm trying to move along here okay uh and so it's going to reduce the sound impact and it's also going to reduce the uh visual impact so I believe again it is a benefit that far outweighs any potential detriment uh that covers the the U testimonial variances I know Craig has a lot of items in his report so we can move on to that the board has any further questions just a quick question on that last sheet you you you showed light coverage is that the existing lighting no there's very little existing lighting there there are many many many light fixtures but very little light in either the front or a rear parking lot so that's another thing you're doing now is that is that consistent with uh the recently passed ordinance on uh light uh what do they call it light intrusion or something like that right right so the lights are noted that if sh Shields may be required to prevent spillage onto adjoining residential lots you almost want spillage into the street because the streets are dark too so we had this in mind when we designed the lighting is to and lighting the parking areas that front on Madison excuse me yeah on Madison and uh Beach we not necessarily easy to to do without making them obtrusive in nature so I I believe we succeeded in doing something that fits the architectural style but doesn't scream that I'm a light post here come see me on on the onone beach you have the building to put your s your light on that's correct the ones on beach are they going to be elevated on poles yes but short poles all right except for the ones that you can attached to the building correct and they'll shine on the parking spaces on Beach and Madison that's correct and these these big ones shine in the backside yes and they'll be shielded so that the spillage will not go into the residen all area okay okay no other questions Craig I'll turn to you all right good evening everyone um late in the evening um my latest review memorandum for this application is dated January 5th 2024 uh this is a application for preliminary and final site plan as well as the variances that have been described by the applicant um it is no we're not voting yet we'll open it to the public after Craig gives his report okay yep so um so there's variances associated with the preliminary and final site plan this is a project located in the C3 hotel motel business district um you've heard testimony uh uh page two of my report uh rehashes what they're proposing to do um I did flag the fact that I counted 290 seats um the parking calculations for 277 we discussed that at length um so I'll move on uh with regards to completeness items uh the completeness checklist for uh C and D variances they ask for uh a waiver from providing the stormw drainage calculations um they're not applicable so we did support that waiver request um the details required for preliminary site plan approval under subsection three letters o uh from showing utility lines and structures there's no proposed additional utilities uh necessary to service the site so we supported the waiver request for that um they requested a waiver from um item v which is an environmental impact statement and that's all site plans have to have that um in this case the the site is substantially developed uh we supported a waiver from that issue uh item number W traffic impact report uh we did support the waiver from that item um the roads that this site abuts are significantly wide and can accommodate the traffic from that that's not a parking analysis it's totally separate and apart from that um so we did support the waiver from the traffic impact report um item y the storm waterer management report uh once again um they're not considered major development therefore they're not triggering those storm water requirements um we did support that waiver request and then finally um double letters double A which is the requirement to provide the site plan in digital format uh we recommend that that be provided a condition of approval and we agree to that we did support deeming the application complete now this is an application for both preliminary and final site plan application um before you guys vote you should determine if you're okay with granting both tonight um and handling any conditions of approval as a compliance issue or whether you want the only Grant preliminary and have them come back with the compliance stuff done on the plans and separate the two um but that's ultimately up to the board what's your recommendation on that correct because that really depends on how detailed are you con it depends on how the voting and discussion I haven't heard like discussion with regards to that issue um I don't have an issue with the doing the compliance review for both preliminary and final um so long as the conditions are you know hashed out and it also depends on if the board if the applicant is agreeable to recommendations that the board has as well as me okay so we'll leave that open zoning requirements so this is a site is located in this C3 District hotels and motels are permitted use in the zone um and the ordinance also allows uses which are clearly incidental and accessory to those uses by right and conditional uses including dining and other service facilities conference and meeting facilities and exhibit space in conjunction with hotels and motels provided such uses may not occupy the equivalent of more than 25% of the total floor area of the principal use so therefore the liquor store the restaurant the bar areas um they have to be less than 25% of the total floor area of the hotel now there was some discussion with regards to the conversion of the guest house so the last time this was approved that guest house was serving as Workforce housing so the employees were living there I think that was treated as an accessory use to the hotel that's going away and I was hoping that the testimony would be a little bit more yeah those rooms are serving they're going to be treated just like hotel rooms um and I heard it I heard bed and breakfast metion so I'm a little scared there we have to make sure it's a permitted use so I think it needs to be treated like a hotel and rented out through the normal Hotel Provisions so i' agree is that okay it actually is yeah it okay I was talking conceptually of the the feel of when you stayed there but it's absolutely rented through the hotel from a youed standpoint it's going to function like a hotel room if you're if you're going to the site you're going to go to the lob you're going to check in they're going to give you a key and you go to that that specific room in that house absolutely yes yeah Craig just a clarification one of the uses by right under that code is a guest house a tourist or guest house but it's permitted but then you have multiple uses on the site and that's not permitted so we have to roll it under oh has to be encompassed under the one use or the accessory uses of 25% otherwise you need a variance so that's that's why I had to ask that question and that's why in my table on page four of9 I just left information required and I was hoping that be taken care of through testimony so Craig there's not 70 units now there's 74 units there's going they yeah so my my report indicates they're taking the hotel count from 70 units to 74 okay um let's see the variances uh so the applicant provideed test Tony with regards to the building setback line so on Madison Avenue uh the stairs for that guest house that we're calling um have a setback of 2.5 ft uh and the trash enclosure that's being reconstructed along Madison Avenue has a setback of 16 ft so there's variances necessary from those two items along the Stockton Avenue side the 20ft setback requirement is not being met the setback is existing at zero and the proposed improvements are at zero so that's a non-conformity that has to be a variance granted for that the building height um I think they talked about that they said they're not exceeding the building height so that information's been provided lot coverage the maximum permitted in the district is 75% they start out at 94.3% as it exists now my report indicates 93.5% but that's before they um listen to my recommendation and are going to instead of concreting over the kitty pool area they're going to provide Landscaping there and Mr um Mr Schaefer has indicated it's going to be 92.9% is that correct that's correct okay so that has been reduced slightly but it's still a variance okay parking we talk Lots about uh um my parking count that's indicated in this table is based on the applicants parking count that they provided um I'm not going to get into the the spaces that count or don't count um or taking advantage of of the outdoor parking ordinance definitions but at the end of the day there's 172 spaces required existing is 88 the proposing 91 spaces which include the Stacked employee spaces um and that's a non-conformity so you've heard testimony with regards to parking variants the the new the three new parking spaces that are proposed all fall within the parking setbacks which is not uncommon because most of the parking spaces that that exist there are within the setbacks so um along Stockton Avenue there's a 20 foot setback along the front yard um so there's zero foot proposed to those two stack back parking spaces um the sidey yard setback uh of 10 ft uh is not being met because that that driveway that's being converted into those two stacks parking spaces has a setback of 2.7 feet so those are the parking setback variances um it should be mentioned that um I support the elimination of that driveway onto Stockton Avenue because Stockton Avenue is essentially the border between the C3 District and the residential districts that that front behind that so eliminating of trips and headlights that shine onto those homes is a good thing so that that hasn't been mentioned so I'll mention that okay we talked about the variances that uh deal with the signage freestanding signage so there's one allowed uh the area the maximum area permitted is 20 square ft they're eliminating the existing three non-conforming signs that have a total area of 72 squ ft and they're proposing two freestanding signs at 30 square ft so not it's not conforming but they're bettering a non-conforming situation the building attached signage um they're allowed one or more in number and the area has to be 20 square feet or less so there's existing two that total 15 Square ft they're proposing four that total 52t fet so they're increasing the number and they're increasing the the square footage um so that's they're uh increasing the non-conformity but if you look at the total overall signage area from both the freestanding and building attached they're actually lessening the square footage of the signage package so we also talked about the pool equipment in the front yard and and parking of the Stacked parking spaces they're not permitted for commercial uses um I would ask if we're going to approve that variance they be signed to say employee only um so that should be a condition and the pool equipment in the front yard was more of a technicality they're essentially building a structure around it to you know that to support the sign that's going over top of it um I I believe it was aesthetic and I believe it also hides that pool equipment I don't think you're going to know that pool equipment's in the front yard after that's been built so I didn't see that as a problem either okay um moving on to page six of nine I have a couple of things just highlighted um item number two I asked the paved area uh being eliminated the kids pool should be vegetated to mitigate the lot coverage um we also didn't want to see out you know seating start pushing out that way so that's a way of eliminating that and and also mitigating the overage on coverage that exists and they've agreed to do that um under three which details the parking variance um we ask him to quantify um the seats so this this comment Still Remains valid I think we have to hash out the seats that are proposed versus the ones that don't count there should be some type of table that that clearly illustrates that um we also um just just want to mention this is one of those properties um rare in the city of K May that actually has on that had on-site Workforce housing which is um you know stated goal in the master plan in the last reexamination that we did um so that Guest House is now being used for guests which effectively increased the required parking for employees so the last time I think we granted a parking variance for this site um the the testimony was our employees are housed on site we're counting them into the parking calculation but they're really on site so we really don't need parking for them in this case you were displacing them and you said you had a site for them are they being is there a vehicle being provided or a shuttle or there would be yes I mean this sorry this this project wasn't planning on starting this year okay but next year yes okay so so there's uh vehicle being provided so it's your testimony that that's not going to increase the parking for those displaced employees that is correct okay all right um so that that was my comments with regards to the variances uh I'm going to move right into my general review comments um there was just some discrepancy with some of the previous applications indicated 69 sleeping units um I think you you mentioned I thought I heard you mentioned that there is a owner there was an owner's quarters yeah previously there was an there was an owner's quarters above the yes above the lobby sorry I'm just trying to orate myself uh yes above the lobby and that's where the previous owner State okay was that counted as a unit are you aware it is it's room 2011 okay yep so that that takes the 69 to 70 which is consistent with the rest of the correspondents okay room 2011 has two sleeping units in it yes right okay so item number two in my general review comments I just asked for the seating chart for 277 seats so we need to to verify that um item number three we just talk we asked for the buffer planning along that parking areas and I you've given us that so that has been addressed uh we asked under item number four they're rebuilding the trash enclosure within the required setback so we ask for construction details be provided for review um those are and I I just want to with regards to all of the streetscape improvements they need to be shown on the plan and approved by the HPC too because they this HBC does have a role in approving those so make sure that those are on the plans and approved by the HPC um item number five uh there is a proposed walkway indicated adjacent to the proposed Guest House stairs at Madison Avenue and I ask that that be eliminated because I think it's promoting midblock pedestrian Crossings as well as an unloading vehicle unloading at the curb is there any issue with that so sorry can uh where is that at somebody could you point to that where that is at the guest house top guest house to the right to right right there yep yeah so I would ask that the plans be revised to eliminate that I think all the every all the unloading and loading should happen within your site not affecting the bike Lanes or anything else that parking that that's along there um we didn't do that sorry was no I don't think I think that's fine okay so should be more more green space or sure so that would also it's actually that sidewalk is actually in the right away it's in the RightWay yeah so okay uh six is our standard condition that they have to comply with chapter 258 the flood damage protection code for the new improvements um seven is to revise the zoning table consistent with our report and the the approvals at the board grants eight construction details of all improvements must be provided for review nine landscaping and vegetation plan must be provided Landscaping areas have been depicted but no specifics on species size or numbers of plantings so we would ask you to incorporate that there was also recommendations from uh the Environmental commission and those should be wrapped into that recommendation um we ask for an additional Landscaping to be provided to address section 529 52559 I which M uh Mr Schaefer indicated that he would do that that's the additional buffering around the parking areas um and to provide uh buffering along the residential lots that abut the property um 11 is uh provide evidence of Consulting with the city's environmental commission and I'll get into their recommendations um at the end of this report um 12 is our standard condition that says uh that you're required to provide a grading and drainage plan uh to the board engineer if you change the storm water runoff characteristics during construction 13 is our storm water review it this project is not considered major development however they still have to conform with chapter 525 which is the minimum storm water management and gradient requirements is that what we um received a wait or you recommended a waiver from so you're you're not required to do on-site storm water but there are grading and drainage requirements that are required in that chapter 525 um most of those are triggered if you have after construction and you have a negative impact someone can come back site that issue and then you can be required to do so now I understand okay okay uh 14 is the requirement to provide the Landscaping vegetation plan and it has to be approved by the construction zoning official 15 all freestanding and building mounted signage details must be provided for review now you've done that but you didn't give us the lighting types and the control information that's required so there are specific lighting requirements there can't be any internally lit signs those signs also have to be approved by the HPC 16 is our standard condition after constructions done we evaluate all the sidewalk that abuts the property and make sure there's nothing broken and then and then we recommend that any broken stuff gets replaced to the satisfaction of the board engineer 17 is a standard requirement to provide the performance guarantee and inspection escros and 18 ties those inspection escros um and your certificate of occupancy to the acceptance of those improvements um 19 is a requirement to comply with the recommendations of the fire department Police Department Public Works Department environmental commission and Cha Tre commission and I'm going to go through that after I get done um any required approval under number 20 is condition on all other state county and local approvals you did mention that New Jersey D cafra approval may be required for this and you're going to provide a phasing plan so I would ask that that be a condition of approval is is provide a phasing plan um and provide evidence of cfer approval before phase two kicks in uh 21 the project is located within within the historic district so evidence of final HPC approval is required I know you provided uh conceptual I believe evidence of the conceptual so I know they've seen it at least once um but we need final evidence of the final approval then finally our standard condition that that you have to comply with any and all applicable affordable housing requirements time of approval issuance of per of construction permits um as applicable and I'll roll into the other reports the shade tree commission recommended approval with the following commission uh conditions plan as proposed cannot detrimentally affect trees on properties located Co terminous to project coterminous wow uh they're losing big words now uh to project at 1020 and 1022 Stockton Avenue so um just make sure that you're protecting those any vegetation that's located along that sideline the police department recommended approval with no conditions the Cape May public works department recommended approved with no conditions the fire department recommended approval with no conditions or comments uh we did receive the notice of conceptual approval from the HPC dated January 29th 2024 and the environmental commission recommended approval with the following conditions so they indicated the proposed landscape plan is inadequate in that it does not incorporate native non-invasive species we strongly recommend that the applicants select from the attached list of eco-friendly native low water plants species uh the list has already been approved by city as a reference she uh for residents and developers do you have any issue with that we are in complete agreement with okay so they have a if you haven't seen that they do have an attached list um they also recommend that you install electrical vehicle charging stations now I took a look at the ordinance I I reviewed it the first time and I didn't initially believe that you're required to provide any I don't believe we are I think we're required to provide three make ready so yeah so that that was my going to be my recommendation after rereading it it says at the time of granting preliminary site plan approval is based on the number of parking spaces and I took that as how many you were proposing but I think it says however many there are the the threshold for three Make Ready spaces is between 75 and 100 parking spaces on site okay so you don't have an issue with complying with that no okay so we're going to comply with the requirements of the environmental commission as as recommended in their uh recommendation dated February 2nd 2024 um hearing that I don't I have any other um I mentioned the employee only stack parking should be signed um and I just want to make note that I don't believe we're approving any outdoor seating plan as part of this site plan approval correct correct is that correct it's correct okay I just I think the record should reflect that so that if there's if they're ever doing that as I understand the ordinance there is no outdoor SE yeah so so I just want to make sure that point was clarified clear as M and that is a summary of my report and I'm happy to answer any questions the board has Craig I have a question if we're not going to approve outdoor seating uh what's in the 277 number cuz I I looked at these plans they sent us and I actually counted the 30 9 and the 38 yeah I don't I'm not going to get bogged down with doing that count tonight but as a condition of approval they're going to give me a plan that has 277 spaces that count towards their parking count and that's it okay cuz because when I did this the uh the 39 the 38s were a part of the 277 and it comes to 277 so 277 is what they're what we're approving tonight I think that I think it's the easiest way of clarifying it that's what you're that's what you're voting on all right it remains to be seen what exactly is in that seating being dining seats right yeah I I I don't know I mean the first question we asked was are all the seats on here in the 277 and the expert testimony was no but now it sounds like all the seats on there are the 277 which actually may be possible because now there's a humongous bar in the middle of the area where all the seats were before so you may have just moved them over and they may all be seats in this whole thing of trying to dodge the seating was totally unnecessary no those bar seats someone can count the seats cuz when I looked at it there's a huge bar big Square bar in the Middle where where I used to sit so I don't know that's that's counted okay that's 25 seats in there right but there used to be all tables in there well that there that's what I'm saying that's why I think it might still be 277 if you count all the little that are in there I count counted everything and I came up with 290 so there's a discrepancy of 13 seats and I think we can work that out as compliance well just for the purposes of everybody's count on the second floor along the railing that faces the ocean there's 30 seats the bar has 29 seats around it there are there are hash 39 which is the dining seats that's 28 of them and there's 38 uh the hasht 38 there's 47 of them on the second floor and seven on the first floor and there's a restaurant seats of 136 on the first floor that totals 277 okay okay that certainly we spent an hour on something we except for one thing except for one thing some of these are the outdoor saing event which are not to be counted for parking but all right so so basically basically the answer to the question is that you have 277 seats and that count the little 30in table seats it's all 277 so well I don't know you tell us I what I think what we're asking for is 277 restaurant restaurant seats and bar seats combined right right and if they're just sofas and Lounge seating they they can be scattered throughout as shown on the plan we don't believe they're in the number we we've gone through it we will I I agree with Craig we need to show a seating plan that meets the 277 restaurant and bar seats and check in that new area that's not I mean but you're seeking a variance if I were you look it's a much easier application if you're saying we have the same number of seats we had before if you can say that then say that and you're minutes you're in good shape can I take three minutes with the team yeah can I take three minutes please yeah thanks well why is that okay why don't we why don't we I was out why don't we open it up to the public maybe other things that come out that you might want to take five minutes for anybody within 200 feet Jules 225 200 feet are you within 200 ft of the property I'm right behind the proper okay so we'll take you first so you have to come up to the Pod uh thank you board members members of a Madison Resort I I I I think you guys done a great job everything's been very nice I got a down for a second can you please um raise your right hand do you swear affirm to tell the truth whole truth about the truth so be gu I do all can you state your name spelling it slowly sure my name is Tom thistle t h i s t l e what's your address sir I'm sorry what is your address my address is 3 bamp Drive Mulla Hill New Jersey oh I'm sorry say that again three try three bam B is boy a the address here that's where I live you want my address address yeah I need the yeah the address that's within 200 ft of the thank you 1020 Stockton Avenue K May 8204 thank you sir thank you all right first I'm going to have nightmares about what to chair and what's a seat and all that stuff that's going to drive me crazy tonight but anyway my only comments really have to do with the um with the with the guest house and they basically are the the variances that that being asked for um basically the setbacks along Stockton Madison Avenue for the 1024 Stockton it doesn't conform to the 20ft setback as it is now right now it's 2 feet and they're asking for zero feet we're just asking that they just stay at the two feet I mean if you see the homes along the side everything is back to 20 ft as required except for the guest house there and now they're asking to be pushed up even 2 feet further which doesn't sound like much but really why can't they stay where they are it's just being pushed up I mean why do we need to do that um I mean it just if anything we could ask that it be set back 20 ft like everyone else but we're not going to do that we just ask them to stay where they are uh the other question is about the um the new stairs and the 62 foot addition to the 1024 to the guest house it I assume this is whatever being done to is going to be approved by by the uh historic preserve committee correct all right cuz I know we have to do everything to go through those committees too and it's very difficult to get through us I don't want to make sure they have to go through the same stuff the same Agony we have to go through absolutely but um one of the issues there is that I guess the one thing I want to ask is is that going to be extra parking on Stockon Avenue now once that driveway is filled in there's no there going to no there's going to be no erass in and out through there right there is that's correct so there's going to be two parking spaces pulling in off Stockton that's going will be their access and this access into the parking lot is being eliminated so you don't get through traffic through that that so they don't come in through the side angle to get there they come in right through the same parking area they had before and they dead end okay all right and I guess one of the questions because you're filling that in uh they really don't need to I think for lack of a better reason to expand out those extra 2 feet they should be able to do what they need to do within the confines of the building they already have there the r during it if you don't mind Mr thisle I just want to explain that two feet it's a little bit misleading because of of the way it just stairs going out from what was previously considered the front entrance to the building and HPC actually encouraged that entrance these stairs so the building get to the rendering Andy I think it's in the back the rendering oh okay we can also reference the uh the letter so [Music] it's a z73 so the uh the setback that we're talking about going from uh two two 2.5 I think it is to to zero is to create this uh this stair this is currently a a porch um currently um but it is a there is a door there it is it would be used as again as as a uh a means of egress from this from this is this part of the application or is this a new exhibit this is part of the new exhibit that we uh referenced at the beginning the we never got to all those I don't think four rendering pages is that a rer I think it's three pages or something four it was uh Z 700 701 702 703 we're for rendering P which one is this three this is z73 thank you can you leave those exhibit here leave those with the yeah CL when you're done thank you yep and while you're on that exhibit there's a there's a sidewalk that you're removing now this this is that sidewalk area that we discussed removing I guess okay so the only parts beov from the 2 feet to the zero feet are are you saying are the steps are the stairs for where it nothing have to be moved out correct okay um and I guess the other issue is um is the I guess the this is more for 1022 but the 5ot buffer vegetation between the the uh I guess where the parking is and their and their property is I think I what are you going just going to put up a fence line there or you actually going to I really think you should do the 5-ft buffer have some type of vegetation separation there between that property and the next property on at which is 1022 which actually the house next to mine uh I think that's what was in the plan but now you're just going to put a fence there I wrote down fence and Landscape buffer when I wrote my notes before was that wrong what I asked for a buffer we're happy to do both so the area we're talking about is between the existing driveway in his yard and that's an existing 2 and 1/2 ft the 5-ft buffer I believe is you're refering into along Stockton and we can do a fence there too if you like a low a low fence but we were going to propose a fence and some Landscaping here but 2 and a half ft doesn't leave a whole lot of room for landscaping right so okay so that's 2 and A2 ft there not 5et the 5 foot is on Madison Avenue not in separating the guest house that's correct from 1022 okay I mean could you CU now what you're going to have instead of there's really there's some traffic going back and forth there but now you're going to have two cars parked there permanently so it really would be nice to have even more of a than a 2 and 1/2t buffer but you know I know there's not much space there but it's just something for the for the board to consider um and the other thing that we were concerned about is if if you start allow allowing cars to park there on that area that that driveway doesn't become like a um like a double wide driveway and have like construction coming through there we have to make sure that well I hope that isn't the what they plan to do in the future and that it's only going to be there for uh vehicles for passenger cars and not for construction trucks to come in and park there and do whatever they have to do that's one of our concerns two employ okay that's thought those were my concerns thank you for listening thank you thank you Jules um ask I understand I just want to ask a question this uh fence and buffer I just wanted to instead of making it a condition can we make it a condition to ask our neighbor we actually have a really good relationship she's an elderly woman who walks over we have our maintenance team right there they actually help her a lot so can we make that instead of put up a buffer I'm happy to do it but it's like along both of our property lines and she's just like there a really nice lady that we try to help out she walks instead of having to walk around she walks right over I I'm just asking for that gentleman do oh he doesn't know no I just from compliance standpoint from her inders that's the only issue I'm not trying to tie things up I just I just don't want to affect our neighbor this is affecting our neighbor that's all she used to walk just she just walks right across now she calls our maintenance guys they help her out all the time so that's all I said unless their neighor presents a sign W I'm okay with that you sure I just misunderstood I thought that gentleman lived next door so I was no he's not he's two doors down SAR him in yes Jules Rous 1010 New York Avenue on second can you just help me how to spell it r r a u c h address 1010 New York sir do you swear affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth sub you God I do just a couple of very small things uh I can remember uh when the uh the house on the corner was designated as as Workforce housing and no no cars I live right around the corner first house in on on New York Avenue and um we've seen a change already we're getting four five six cars uh in the season parking on New York Avenue um the biggest issue has however will be once this is changed from from Workforce housing to potentially rental housing we're going to see what has happened on uh house at the corner uh opposite New York Avenue on Madison it's four bedrooms 25 occupants they're on given days when we have uh weekends parties 8 to 4 cars pull in they're from everywhere and uh it's it's been an extremely successful rental we would ha hope that this doesn't happen to this particular house the uh the other issue I have is the fourth story uh on the western side of the main building uh that that area that that you're now proposing to add a roof to it is that going to be a an area for weddings and receptions and a bar and music and tables and sit down enter uh dining it could be if as long as it just maintains with the fire code which is 50 or less people up there which is pretty small um in comparison that that is the problem it it if it is CH if the use is changed from what I'll call just a a uh a passive use to a an organized use with tables and chairs bar and music it becomes frankly a nuisance and we've experienced that in the past um and some of those activities go on late at night so that I believe the answer is different than the testimony that was given yeah I thought it was a place we could watch to be clear though there are there are Hotel guests that are staying with us that would use the facility so I mean there's again this is not the general public the general public can cannot access this space so they would have to be Hotel guests in order to to be there so I'm not sure if it's a parking question or a noise question or they're also outdoor noise regulations I understand that that limit time his question was is it going to be like a bar and have events there and this and then the answer was yes so but I don't think the answer meant to be yes are you going to have a bar there there's no bar being built there there could be a table where you have champagne or sorry champagne sure why not for a private reception for a private reception of our for our guests of our hotel that's exactly what the experience has been where it been large groups of people occupying that upper level having a grand time with tables and chairs and bars and food um CH I don't think it's appropriate um I don't know how the board's going to address the difference the two answers not the use is not changing it is what it it would what it's always been and the only thing changing is they're extending the roof line to go over it there's no additional use or changing they putting a putting a roof on my understanding was it was going to be a passive use am I wrong we don't we don't regulate use to some degree I mean it's it's there it's physically there Jules they're putting a they're putting a roof on top of it and it's for hotel guests by putting a roof fun just support what you're saying it gives it a different uh look a different feel it makes people say hey this is a nice venue I'll have a wedding there and you're saying that would be possible well we do have guests that would love to get married here in Kate may obviously we do very small boutique weddings um anything and we're that space does not 50 occupant 50 occupants on that space Also incl includes our team members so you're talking a about a very very small intimate wedding uh we have you're not serving food up there you said well I mean it would be something past something small but that's that's for our hotel guests which by the way again has been done four years we have not changed that that's it's been like that since that space was built so if they're not a guest they can't go to the wedding they have to stay in our hotel absolutely I mean that's what that's what happen s we have guests that have been coming to this hotel for 40 years there's multiple Generations so that they come every single year they've been there forever and we have one young lady that's like I want to get married here I've been coming here since I was a baby can I ask a question with the HBC did they was that something they were looking for was the the roof line on top of that to the HBC by May the HBC loved it loved every piece of what we did to that building all right so what you're saying is this may be an area that's used as an accessory used to the hotel to hold to have a wedding space and that is permitted under our ordinance because that's counted within the 25% of the calculations right okay so it's no different than still well Bel Congress Hall using one of their areas to have a wedding that's your position as okay the concern frankly is parking uh when you add allow uh outside activities even though that the tenant there may majority of them may be staying in a hotel you you create a parking issue um my my other suggestion is that uh we we've seen a couple of of certificates of from the meraner license has anyone seen the actual original site plan for this property and what that called for or allowed the original site plan pardon me the original site yeah the original site plan going back into the 60s uh I I thought there was one prior to that uh in around uh 19 or 2010 2012 I said the 19 1960s that would be the original change I don't remember there being any change to that fourth floor for that 2010 approval or it would be interesting to research the records and see what what the the actual allowable improved site plane called for in the way of uh of seats thank you very much much and just for the record under the ordinances certificate of zoning compliance is required on a transfer of ownership that was received with all the existing conditions in place nothing changed and U so wanted to point that out are we officially closed to the public now yes nobody else wants to speak the public portion is closed did you want to take three minutes still we just want to clarify if if we can is that okay it's fine I know it's sorry okay so is this a five minute break okay five minute bre I get it that my f e yeah back in session Tony want have any closing comments yeah first I want to clarify the seating and and what we're asking so it's it's clear first I agree that um we need to provide just a very clear and detailed seating chart that shows where the seats are how many there are what's restaurant seats or with dining tables what are bar seats and what are what we call Lounge seats because we do have Lounge seats in this plan which is mainly over the um restaurant new the new closed in section of the restaurant the 900 and something square feet um so we are asking for the 277 seats that exist which are seats with dining tables and bar seats and then the lounge seating which we count to be somewhere around 50 or 56 depend but again that's going to that could change and that could be less when Craig reviews it and if it's reviewed by the Fire official or if it's reviewed and it doesn't meet code requirements whatever it is it is but the the applicant should be penalized for putting in seats for lounging that are permitted under the code and do not go into the parking calculations so that's what we're asking for but when I look at this when I just look at this project as a whole and I just want to wrap it up by saying you know sometimes one um issue that we consider to be really not much of an issue or an issue at all really taints the entire project because this is a vast improvement over what's there it's an aesthetic Improvement to the building we're looking at all the benefits of this application and you get to impose what you want on an applicant that meets concerns that you have were it's a significant reduction in lock coverage the signage is so much better we're getting rid of those two Monument signs or freestanding signs on the corners that actually have two sides to them I'm replacing them with two really nice signs with one side one at street level one on up up above or below the roof line uh where renovating and restoring an historic building that the HPC um approved and it's a major Improvement to that building and when you look at at parking things keep changing in K May to the point where more more and more people are not driving to their destinations even those that are coming from out of town are taking Ubers and lift and other forms of transportation or golf carts or bicycles or if they're in town they're walking or taking bikes parking I think is still a problem but it's not as much of a problem as is as it has been in the past and I I'm in town all the time I see it especially at night you know along Beach Avenue a lot of those spaces that are occupied by beachgoers become occupied by people going to the restaurants and bars along Beach Avenue and the hotels and it's becoming an outdoor venue I mean that's why that seating outdoor seating ordinance was put in place to allow more outdoor Gatherings and dining so we have a benefit with signage we're eliminating that drive way that goes out to Stockton which was a which was a hazardous condition and a nuisance that's another benefit we're adding fre parking spaces I get the fact that well there were employees there and they were really you know and since they were employees in counter for parking therefore it's not really that much of a benefit but on the other hand the employees aren't always working the employees that are living there and parking cars there and not working it's the same thing as as people staying in a guest house so I think that's a benefit the Landscaping is a major benefit we're we're willing to comply with all of the requirements of the environmental commission with respect to that adding charging capable areas charging stations so all these additional features and and on top of all that it's a great Improvement to the building itself the renderings depict that and it's becoming more of a of of a of a yearr round Resort which I think this town has you know is trying to build itself as more of a yearr round Resort Town than just seasonal so this is also going to add to that so I look at all the positives on this and the only the only thing that seems to be um a negative from at least some of the comments we've heard is this 900 square F feet of additional space that is going to be used for lounge seating and that's a a a minor problem I think compared to all the benefits because of all the reasons I stated I do not think based on the testimony that there's this is going to create a major parking problem and from an ordinance standpoint again I I agree with Mr King you know it wasn't a Fly by Night happen stance that they passed this ordinance that ordinance went through a rigorous period of time with a committee that met for for probably over a year to come up with an ordinance that addresses outdoor seating and I know this is not technically outdoor seating but my point is they didn't view it as as outdoor seating and that's why they kept it out of the ordinance because they recognized that people that aren't sitting at dining tables or at bars maybe are just sitting there enjoying the view or enjoying the weather or just sitting and reading a book people sit in chairs for many reasons other than just dining and so I think for all those reasons we would ask that the board approve all the variances and also the uh preliminary and final site plan and I do appreciate all the comments and they were we're not being critical of the questions and the concerns because they're all legitimate concerns but we believe we had all the answers for them so thank you again no it's not that's not interesting it's not outdoor seating okay doesn't meet the it's not regulated by outdoor seating I don't know what it's by Craig might think it's regulated by the zoning ordinance in BR I don't know but there's there's 30 some seats that face the ocean here what are they the rail they're number along the rail is that the rail says they it yeah yeah they're they're bar seats they they're counted in the 277 they're counted as bar seats they're they're they're up there now they they've been there yes yeah okay they're marked as it's marked as a 30 which says install new section mahogany drink rail so it's a drink rail so you're saying that's the 30s or in the yeah it's the same as the as sitting at the bar a drink rail is the same type of seating as sitting at a at a bar we count those are counted in in the 277 there are sub Lounge seats over the existing second floor and then there are Lounge seats on the new edition that make up the 56 and we'll illustrate that and then the 277 between the first floor and the second floor dining I I forgot to ask you this question pardon me but um what happened to the stage upstairs because you have it as a 19 which is a painting frame and sashes of existing slider doors I think the the that's a copy note that's incorrect that is the stage are that's the area that's going to be Stage IT remains um does I want to give you a chance to comment on this but does the board have any feeling about granting prelim preliminary site plan approval only and require for the final a clear analysis of the seating on the second floor I would make that recommendation because right now I I can't I can't tell you I don't know how many seats or which kind of seats I can't tell from this chart I mean I don't know how many well can we just make that a condition of approval what's the condition that it actually that they come back with a seating plan that shows that it's only 27 277 of the restaurant seat preliminary and ask to come back the full board or you can grant preliminary final and do it as a of appr right right that's what I'm saying what you guys that's why you get that's why you get the big that's why you get the big bucks if you're going to do that I would just make sure that the 277 and and just set the number of what calling LNG seats as a set number so that I know what I'm I I I I'm we're approving a site plan with a number of seats and we don't know how many seats yeah you have to for otherwise they said 56 they we have 56 we have 56 on the plan7 plus 56 plus 56 that are on the the second the second level that's all those 56 going to meet the that says they're not outdoor seats correct again I'm just sitting here thinking how big is this building and literally it is that hallway back to the wall and there's could be 56 seats there that's the way I look at it I mean that's the second floor of that first floor building I mean am I being clear am I being I don't know well you have whole restaurants at at 56 okay we got you got the numbers it's 56 that's fine with you if I can draft the resolution that says 277 and 56 and they I don't care I just want to be able I have to write it down comp okay any other comments from any board members want to take this all the morning I do have one I have one comment that didn't even come up I'm surprised you didn't bring it up Dennis we're getting more room we're getting more room Revenue because now they're motel rooms and they're going to be paying more you're not getting any of that Revenue sure you do occupancy tax occupancy tax okay can I make a comment uh I I would like to recommend that the uh variance regarding the the two parking spaces next to the guest house uh be denied for this reason it's two locked in stacked parking spaces which are technically not available to this property it it doesn't change the overall parking shortage that much it doesn't change it at all and it would also give the applicant an opportunity to take that entire space and make it a lot more attractive to the neighbors next door with respect to Hedges and walkways and making it look like a house that isn't it doesn't have a two parking spaces within a 10- foot setback which which is uh I think it's going to be a a problem I don't think I don't think you're gaining anything by getting two parking spaces stuck in that spot because the first thing that people are going to ask you when you you rent them the house is can't why can't we use those two parking spaces so to me it's it's forcing variances which are really not that important I would I would recommend we don't do that if if I live in that neighborhood I'm not going to be happy that two cars have to now parked somewhere else we we could have accommodate them off site they're they're going to park somewhere else anyway there are 100 spaces 100% over their parking spaces it's just I mean you know we're we're rearranging the tech chairs in the Titanic here not there's not enough rooms there's not enough spaces for people who are actually renting rooms that's what I asked single so why are we worrying about jamming two spaces for two employee spots in a Zone which is not the ordin doesn't permit it and it's not going to cause that not going to impact much of your Dennis would you like to make a motion on that one variance I would like to make a motion anybody want anybody care to second that I'll second it okay can you the motion very yeah motion is that we deny the variances connected with parking setbacks and the two parking spaces which are well you can't you can't deny parking setbacks that's that's all that's a lot of the spaces you're you're saying just the just the two what are you talking about here uh Varian is five and six and seven because I mean first of all if you take that away they can still Park one car there that doesn't need a variance if you leave the driveway there and one car pulls in you you've got you've got a legal spot so the so so you're so you're what your what Your the varant you want to deny is a stack parking yeah well actually actually I would suggest to the applicant that you're getting even if we denied the stacking and one getting one space the the Optics of that whole section next to this guy's house which is it's not his H he's two he's do two doors down yeah the person next to it isn't here it's not here I'm talking about the guy who it's an old it's an older woman putting a fence in a and a and a planning buffer there but you're squeezing it into a space that's what 10 feet wide no it's two and a half feet wide two and a half fet wide there was a motion in a second I just need you to tell me what the motion is exactly and then we can vote on the motion is that deny the variances five six and seven is that correct Craig I want me to say that again did I did I MO five six and seven are the correct or incorrect notion right basically to deny stack stack parking you you well but one car could park there it doesn't take it doesn't get rid of the driveway death I mean there is an exist six is going to remain because you still have one space in if six and seven remain five's going to remain too to but you're just a limit so it's just seven I believe the right way to say this is eliminate those two stack parking spaces number seven that but I mean you're just you want to eliminate those from the site yeah so whatever whatever however that precipitates and affects the variances falls out that way that's correct okay and it would and it would require a bit of a redesign with the Landscaping of that section of the property which probably would look better than two parking spaces am I right or wrong so it's got to change change numerous I mean the parking number is going to be different the parking numers you're going to lose two spaces lose the two so 791 you're back to9 so you're already the two parking spaces and propos Landscaping in Li of that yeah is that your yeah right yeah that is because it doesn't get much value to to take 8 go from 88 to 91 88 0 actually this is a new angle for you yes it is well I'm just is there a second is there a second marn second Marilyn second good second but I I just wanted to say that if you right now you have a length of a driveway that you're going to put tandem car when you say stacked you're going to have one behind the other tand so now when you go down which is what uh Mr Crawley is suggesting you go down to one parking space space that gives you space in the front you're saying no driveway at all both of them oh that's what I'm not clear because I drove by the place today and I thought to myself uh this place would look a lot better in terms of a historical facility if we didn't have that driveway there at all you're only getting two lousy parking spaces out of it which which you're you're already at 88 and and the P two spaces in there and instead of instead of putting some Landscaping in it makes it look like a decent house 10t apart from the property line I think it's better what are you going to do with two space all right we have a motion we got a motion made in second the motion is made to deny variance as 567 to the extent that it would eliminate the two stacked parking spaces and the driveway thank you roll call okay so we have a motion by Mr Crowley second it by Mrs Reed council member Jagger no Mrs re Reed yes Mr Crowley yes Mr lenol no M mccorkel no Mr krippin no Mr Jones no Mr bazer no okay what was that count was that six to two yes just a reminder that we have eight people right a tie does not pass the up so we could use a motion to approve the site plan preliminary and final with the conditions that rich will give um with the with these attended variances I'll read through it 277 and the 56 I'll do my best ready the motion I recommend being made although how you vote is up to you and we always make it in the affirmative is a motion to Grant site plan preliminary and final along with the associated variances those variances are listed on page five of the engineers report 1-9 as described in his zoning chart with the change of block coverage from 93.5 to9 2.9 the guest house is also going to be used as part of the hotel use and not as a separate bed and breakfast or anything like that there'll be 277 seats for dining uh Ina in the TR traditional sense and then there'll be 56 seats that uh the way I wrote it was the seating chart shall show 277 seats with 56 seats that are limited in design to that which is not considered an outdoor seat under chapter 412 can I just but make sure we're clear on this that if there's if there's chairs in front of the motel rooms individual motel rooms that's not part of we're not okay right that also would fall this is for the um the new area yes yes there's also condition there's waivers um waivers on page three 3 oov w y and uh double A and then there are conditions one through 22 as shown on pages 78 and N following changes uh The Crossings and vehicle unloading at the curb okay uh the encouragement block number five says this would encourage the proposed Guest House stairs at Madison Avenue should be eliminated for safety reasons this would encourage mid-block pedestrian Crossings and vehicle unloading at the curve they must be eliminated we agreee to that right yes that's that's that sidewalk then with regardant number two um applicant must clearly identify the uh the seating chart uh the condition number 19 uh they'll comply with the shade tree letter dated 2124 and environmental commission letter dated 2224 number with order number 20 if there's to be a phase plan due to with was that cfra cfra cfra uh they must provide a two-stage phased plan number 23 there will be a fence and a twoot landscaping buffer between the house and the adjacent house unless the neighbor presents a signed waiver that's no longer condition no it is unless the neighbor presents a sign waiver yes right all right all right those are the um positions that I'm able to catch at this moment if something else was said on the record that was as a condition and was acknowledged by the applicant that'll be included too when I do the formal resolution but those are my notes at present I also have a note in my notes that the fourth floor area is for guests uh for events for guests only of no more than 50 people testimony and the request the applicant objector Express concern about that that was the representation so we're going to hold to that um and I think that that is what I have as conditions I had two more I think good sir no outdoor seating plan is being approved okay and the employee only stacked parking will be signed right will be what will be signed saying no employees only okay somebody care to make that motion with those conditions I'll make the motion I'll second it he we have a motion by council member Jagger seconded by Mr lundholm council member Jagger um first I want to make some comments I'd like to say that that place needs a visual Improvement and I think what you're proposing is absolutely great and I wish a lot more people in Cape May along Beach Avenue would do that um the second thing is the stock I call it the Stockton property the guest house what a made major Improvement that's going to be um I say all the seating issues that everybody's worried about take it all out and you can have 50 people standing up there you you know when the band's playing it's going to be the same thing so I'm not worried about the lounge seating and the parking requirements that go with it because um again people can stand who's going to stop them um and again I think many people from the hotel are using it you guys don't get credit for the fact that you have many Hotel people and uh that that does offset some of the parking deficit that you have um and for rooms Revenue just a you know Dennis's favorite uh we get a few more bucks there but again overall I think that there are more positives in this project than there are negatives by far so I'm a yes Mrs Reed I'm just going to press that I always like to see the people on that offer something to Residents and in your application there was nothing you're asking for n or six variances and there was nothing for this gentleman who spoke out or that gentleman who spoke out consing or um and I wish the board would talked about done certain ways but when are we going stop I call allowing these large venes to continue noise to continue based on what Mr said yes I agree your plans are lovely and I'm going to vote Yes I think my would be the only one and but I I feel bad that you could not res for instance I'm going to say with the cover porch that you're doing it's going to make a difference when you cover that the type of noise and part that you're going to have I just hope that you will be your vote is yes correct yes okay thank you Mr Crowley clarification is this a straight up or down vote on all of these yes clarify that the applicant requests that you consider the application as a whole in terms of benefits and detriments therefore we do a single vote um some of the non-conforming uses you consider the C1 uh St pre-existing non-conforming deviations from the ordinance you should consider to some extent under the C1 hardship variance and that is a existing building and there's limitations on what they can do for the other applicate for the other variant is you're doing on the C1 balancing which is set forth in the engineers report which I incorporate by reference and you should apply that standard to those variances but yes you should vote on the application as a whole because they've asked you to do so in terms of aesthetic historic preservation and all those things okay in that case I will preface my vote by saying that I am opposed to uh variances one three four five seven and the uh the sign one of the signs so I in that context I would have to vote no for the all Mr lome I like the improvements yes Miss mccor yes Mr krippen uh yeah I believe the uh application is uh overall positive impact for uh for the city as a whole and for that area um the aesthetic improvements 100% reduction of lock coverage which is nice to see is that as well they have a little tin a little bit more green space um and also your testimony that there uh not that it was part of the application per se but uh the employee housing uh isn't going to be lost for uh and that those folks coming in would be shuttled in and we won't have an additional parking uh problem with that um and I think that overrides the uh negative impact which is it will be a more intense use of that space no doubt about it uh but I I believe the positive is override to negative so I'm a yes Mr Jones also voting yes I from any of the positive comments that are made up previously by the board I vote Yes Mr berair and I'm also voting yes and I pretty much want to Echo what Mr Jer said comments he made okay thank you so okay thank you guys than you thank you thank you sorry sorry to keep you so all we have we have a we have to pay the bills Mo motion to pay the bills I'll make a motion to pay the bill fun so say Mr Leno motions and Mr Crowley seconds council member Jagger yes Mrs Reed yes Mr Crowley Mr lenhome yes M mccor I think you want to add the bills were any of these prior from you're you're good you're good for this I'm okay for these okay then yes okay thank you Mr krippin yes Mr Jones yes Mr bazer yes thank you okay one more motion motion to approve motion to all in favor thank you everyone good night we should have a rule that the meeting can't last longer than the CV