e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] [Music] everyone welcome to the March 19 meeting of the Chad finance committee good afternoon everyone take two welcome to the March 19 meeting of the chadam finance committee please note pursuant to Governor Healey's March 29 2023 signing of the acts of 23 extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law until March 31 2025 this meeting of the Chatum finance committee is being conducted in person and via remote participation every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings is provided for in the order a reminder that persons who would like to listen to this meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 508 945 4410 again 508 945 4410 enter conference ID 698 918 859 pound sign 698 918 859 pound sign or one may join the meeting online via Microsoft teams through the link in the posted agenda well this is a live broadcast and simal cast of chadam TV despite our best efforts we may not be able to provide realtime access we'll post a record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as possible so with that let's see who's here Joan sprag here thank you Bar Madison I know is not present Tracy Shields here Kristen Andres here Andy young here and papalardo here Tommy D here Eric Whitley here and the chair is here we have a quorum and not withstanding the agenda which previously rolled a couple of minutes ago across the screen I think we have U posted a newer agenda um it'll be fairly brief today we're going to have a discussion around the potential for a regional Municipal swimming pool facility and a um a vote to be held on that this spring and we're going to uh discuss F the report of the finance committee which is due at the end of the week and seems to be shaping up rather well Thursday we are going to be kind of mopping up on all the open there's not many but there's a small handful of articles that we need to um take our votes on and and um go on record for so that'll be Thursday uh but today we're going to begin with the N nonbinding annual town meeting article question should we have a municipal swimming pool and I think to discuss that here is Ros Coleman welcome back Ros thank you so nice to see you I'm delighted to be back um this is online just in case you haven't seen it oh you have this good well um I have an expert witness that I want to introduce he will be online and it will be superintendent Dr Scott Carpenter but I'm going to talk about this piece of paper first and then uh hopefully scottt is uh going to be online soon but he assures me that he will be here online because he can talk about uh the details better than I can um you notice that the question that was before us was to pull our resources and um that turn turned out to be uh difficult to do unless you used the Massachusetts schoolb building authority and the emphasis on the word Authority if any of you have ever worked in public schools you know that when it was time for the Massachusetts school building authority to come and check your premises you all had to be on your toes because uh everyone had to have their act together if you were in a u offering a program it better be in good facilities it better be doing what uh the school Authority wanted you to do so in order to pull our resources which would be in the matter of speaking it would be school systems because in Massachusetts you can't have a not for-profit or a for-profit company and I thought surely there must be some not for-profit companies that could work at public resources well it turns out that there isn't it is the Massachusetts school building authority with the emphasis again on the word Authority now I think that some of you were around when we uh got the opportunity to build a new Regional School because hartch was in deep trouble they didn't have a building that was uh approved by the school Authority and so therefore we have the regional ma um Mass well we have mono Regional uh schools so um that's the only game in town that would allow us to really pull our resources because we have resources we have the monoy regional uh school system as uh we have uh something similar that happened uh quite a while ago in West Hartford Connecticut uh they um 60 years ago set aside a large amount of land and that was so that they could have a community pool and so theirs is called Cornerstone Aquatic Center but they were approved by the town and it's thriving today because not only is the pool there and all of its acuts but uh the land is there and it's important to understand what land public schools have and I call my expert witness Dr Scott uh Carpenter to uh discuss why it might be an important thing for us to look to the schools good afternoon Scott stear Scott how about now there you go better thank you yes so um yes so I you know I I definitely uh you know sympathize with Raz when it comes to uh you know you know somebody who thinks that a community pool in our towns would be great um I you know I have reached out to uh the mass uh Association or the mass School building authority uh but haven't gotten a return reply from them in terms of whether or not uh a a a pool a community pool project is within their purview nor do I nor do I have from my own school committee uh a you know they haven't taken any sort of action as to whether or not they would support um uh you know the the you know sort of taking ownership of the feasibility study but uh but when it comes to just a community pool and what it could do for you know for you know for our you know for our students and our families you know not to mention you adults and retirees and school superintendents who are uh rehabilitating a injured leg like myself you know I I I think there's a lot of benefits I mean we're surrounded by water but really don't have that community pool that we can teach swimming lessons in and help students become lifeguards and we don't have that community pool where we could add a swimming team you here at the high school you for you for our students so I think there's a lot of there's a lot of upside to you know to what Raz is advocating for um I do think we you know we need to get some clarity as to as to uh whether it is uh something that uh that the msba is uh willing to uh to take on and whether they consider that to be part of their perview and uh and again we'd have to uh get some clarity from the school committee on whether or not you know if we were playing this all the way forward you is a is a pool something the schools should uh should take ownership of I you know I mean I I I if I'll speak for myself not for my committee I think it's probably uh you know beyond the the scope of our mission but I you but I don't want to underemphasize you know how strongly I feel you know for you know for a community pool and I know there are a number of different initiatives both you know both where RZ you know what Raz is talking about and some private ones to uh you to try to see you know see a a community pool built in this region and again I think it would just be uh great for our families and you our community thank you if you have any questions I think uh this is a good man to explore that about how that would um be done um but it's a first step to say that we'd really like to pull our resources and our resources are public schools and yes there would be steps that Dr Carpenter would be well aware of what the process would be it's not to say that it would be an overnight process it just means that it's a step forward thank you Scott thank you Ros um before we begin I just have one kind of clarifying question if I could please and I I guess I don't fully understand or appreciate the need or requirement is if there is such a thing for the mass School building authority what why are they part of the conversation as opposed to the town of chadam and harwitch and Orleans well a private company has no jurisdiction I mean cannot work with a public entity uh let's and so they a private company what they would like to do is uh build a private uh on private property uh a resource and they say in our area it would be just fabulous to have uh such a resource but where are they going to build it uh finding they they have been talking to uh various well um the uh well anyway they have to find property and the only thing they can do is ask for us to give them the names and addresses or the email the information about people in our area who might want to join a a for-profit pool community Community uh pool there might be a way for municipalities to work together uh that was something that Mike um shell had uh mentioned and some of the larger cities have done that like uh for example Belmont did that but H for a smaller area like ours where we are if we had a a regional pool it could be the Brewster line and it would still be about six miles or seven miles for all of us to get there so we are a relatively small area uh and our resources lie really with within the public school uh effort now again this is step one who knows whether we could actually uh get every school Scott knows better about how you have to talk to the Massachusetts school building Authority and see if they're in interest if they're interested in this you would have you'd have to talk to hartch you would have to talk to uh Brewster and you'd have to talk to Orleans I mean that's those are the four schools that have uh an would have an interest in this and this is simply step one saying that we would like to explore uh pooling our resources so okay thank you Ros I think Joan was first on the button hi RZ nice to have you back with the here um I'm not uh clear yet whether we're talking about uh a community pool located somewhere not on the the school grounds are we talking about a community pool located within the mono Regional School property or are both well get actually nobody knows how much property we have I think Scott has a very good idea but we we've never done um a survey we have no idea how much property that we own in common say in just the monore region um and having a uh feasibility study would just be nice because we would then know uh Is it feasible for us to have a pool for just the mono region um it might not be we might not have enough land in common for example there is uh there are uh behind the Harwich Community Center there is Plumbing but we don't know to what extent we don't know uh how much it would would have to be done we don't know uh whether there's space to there are Pres presently uh Playing Fields behind that school and we don't know whether there are there's enough space say behind the um Middle School here in chadam to replace that we have we don't have the details about how much space we have so a feasibility study would just be nice uh to see if it's feasible for our district to have uh the monoy school district or you regionals pool um SC Scott is skeptical about whether we have enough space to reallocate the playing field but we don't know for sure so a feasibility study would just be nice uh and it might show us that no it's not feasible for monoy school district to act on its own and just have a Regional monoy School District pool in over behind the Harwich uh uh Community Center we don't know that uh so it would be fun to have a feasibility study but um so that would be what we're asking for you know to basically find out whether or not our particular region has enough space that we could reallocate we don't know or whether or not it might be a lot better to merge with Brewster say who has all of this wonderful conservation land there that they put aside that there there's a lot of possibility there if they wanted to become a regional uh school I mean uh have a regional pool we don't know um so this is basically step one to find out whether we would be interested in having a regional pool somewhere and this is step one and Scott what would you say to that I I've just shared with RZ you know when it comes you know when it comes to the uh the land that the schools uh least from the least from the towns there's you know at at neither Elementary School is there uh a footprint big enough to you know to add a pool and have sufficient parking for for the you know for a pool that you'd add at the Middle School uh if one were to add a pool then you're taking offline uh a softball field you that that you know that town and youth sports use or a soccer field or a baseball field you know so so you so I I and the same at the the high school the high school has you know has this big front yard that is just used uh you know throughout the warmer months by you know by youth soccer and youth lacrosse and you know football and our you know all of our athletic teams you know use that when the you know when the turfield is you is in use so you so I think I I don't think that there's space within the school district's least land for the pool that Raz describes but I definitely think that I I understand her want to have a broader conversation with the you know with the Greater Community or chattam and harwit talking you know talking with each other about where where might there be space that one could explore uh using as a a joint Community Venture for a for a pool so thank you follow two please y that from what I know there's certainly is a lot of interest in a pool whether it's Community or town or what um so I think from my point of view it's worth exploring but maybe the town manager could give us some idea of the cuff of what a a feasibility study would cost thank you Mr chair our feasibilities have been running anywhere between 30 and 50,000 just depending on if it's already a site that's been um vetted if there's multiple sites that have to be looked at it could be more expensive than that but it you generally arranges between 30 and 50,000 okay thank you thank you Mr chair you're welcome I note that Christen and Tracy had their hands up I just kind of a point of order i' like to clarify what we're discussing here which is As I understood it the question posted shall the town of chadam explore participating in a regional swimming pool facility that sounds like a yes or no vote at town meeting versus now we're talking about a feasibility study costing 30 to $50,000 what what's on the agenda let's to be clear can somebody clarify that Dean could you POS yep Dean Castro or Le is on has his hand up thank you Dean thank you Mr chairman uh well this is on the warrant as a select board article um sort of sounding like a petition article because Ros was the initiator of it and Ros came to me and asked um how she could get a question non-binding question before town meeting which is the question that's before you and the select board voted unanimously to put it on the warrant and unanimously to support it it has no fiscal note as I would Envision it uh if it's if there's an affirmative vote at town meeting um then I think it would be incumbent upon the select board after town meeting when we we review all the votes at town meeting to determine what if anything we as a board might want the town to do and we would get some guidance from the the town manager there has been a lot of interest in the swimming pool as Joan has said um a couple of years ago we did an exhaustive study um on a petition article um for a swimming pool um at um the location of the swimming pool that's now closed and it's going to become a coffee roasting business I believe um and that did cost about 50,000 it was an incredibly exhaustive um report and concluded that it would have cost the town of chadam about $5 million to put that pool in good shape and so we obviously decided not to go forward with that um so if there is to be an affirmative vote then I think um what I could see happening is that the town would explore with um adjacent communities towns of harch Orleans and Brewster as RZ said and Orleans and Brewster of course participate in the um are members of the NSD school district and I think that school district has a swim team and there's a swimming pool somewhere in the district that they utilize so I don't know what level of Interest those towns might have but the Regional School District our Regional School District is an obvious candidate to look to for for possible participation and um Scott has indicated that he's checked with the the school building authority I just hearing this for the first time um whether there's any role it would be nice if the if the state would pick up the cost of any kind of feasibility study but you'd have to determine you know where it might go what are the possible locations is there really interest in the other towns does this is the school committee interested in doing this but right now there's no fiscal note and I think if if there were an undertaking following a voted meeting in the affirmative to do this it would be incumbent upon the select board and the town manager to determine how to go about it and what it might cost and where the money might might come from but the selectboard has committed no no funds to this at the present time nor has the town manager so that's how I understand it it's an exploratory thing um it's a simple question yes or no and that's that's how I see this as as being before you okay that's that's most helpful so for the avoidance of doubt there's there's no feasibility study contemplated personally it's strictly expression of Interest no no if you if you vote an affirmative recommendation all all I see it is you're voting to say yes we should explore this yep and the select board can say that's fine but we're not going to do it because it's non-binding okay terrific thank you for that Dean uh chrisen please I think most of my questions were answered with that I was wondering what if there was a fiscal implication here um I'm still confused whether we're talking about a school pool versus a community community pool when I think I think there's a difference there a community pool means people of all ages using it at any time um and so I'm wondering how that looks like in a school system uh where the where students are using the facility um you know I grew up in a place where we had our own pool at our high school and you know in the YMCA or the you know had there was another community pool that somewhere else um so I I guess this raises a lot of questions and I wouldn't know how to vote for it um I know it's non-binding but I guess I'm just not clear on what we're um what we're being asked to and maybe it doesn't really matter because it's non-binding but I'm still confused all right thank you Christen Tracy please yes some of that what I was going to ask was just covered by Kristen I guess the linking with the school district is a is a confusing measure but the there's nothing about the school or school property that is linked with this question is that correct it's just that in in discussion of this question one of the options is to look at properties owned by the school district which would seem to me to be rather problematic for the towns to use for their own purpose but that is obviously something outside of my remit um but in terms of what we're voting on if it is a yes votee wouldn't that be the green light for the select board to then go out and do a feasibility study or would the select board need to get approval for a feasibility study let's see if we can get Dean back up for a view on that question please thank you Dean I'm going to answer two questions because one I have some historical information that I'll provide um if if because it's non-binding if it's passed if it passes in the affirmative the select board first could make the determination whether to do it or not because selectboard has the authority to say too bad we don't think it's a great idea we're not going to do it but if we should decide to do it we would have to consult with the town manager to see uh what's the best approach um um and it might initially not involve any expenditure might involve a telephone call sever series of telephone calls to the various uh other towns and the school district to see if you might be interested in participating um and who knows perhaps there could be a I'm just I'm blue skying here it could be a committee appointed in intermunicipal committee appointed to look into this they could come back to the towns and say you know we uh we think we should do a feasibility study it's going to cost X chadam should contribute y do then we would look to Jill to tell us if we have that money and uh if we don't we'd have to go to town meeting to get an appropriation for it so um I don't know if that answers your question Tracy I I have a one of the things when we started doing this we just said Olympic pool that was really not a good thing to say because you can do a lot if we built an Olympic pool it would be it wouldn't it would cost a lot more money it wouldn't it wouldn't really meet our needs all we need is a facility uh that includes and as we talked about it in other places it would it specialize in creating a swimming pool to meet the diverse needs of several t such as competitive Sports pool that's different than an Olympic pool a therapy pool um a water aerobics pool which would be you wouldn't in an Olympics siid pool you certainly couldn't do water aerobics uh a wheelchair accessible pool and swim lessons for all ages and that means for the entire region so we in thinking about this we discovered no we don't need we're not asking for an Olympic style pool we're asking for a facility that incorporates a lot of needs for the whole community and yes it would be a Town Sports pool but it would also be a water aerobics pool for people like me uh and uh a therapy pool for kids who might have been injured in playing football or something uh or whatever so it Encompass so our understanding of what we need changed from an Olympic style pool to a facility and that's and you could build the whole facility cheaper than you could one Olympic pool so we learned a little bit just in asking the question the the question is framed in a in a very general open-ended way so that it allows for flexibility to examine whatever options might be available it's conceivable to me that if the town uh if the various towns got together and said we're going to build a pool U next to the Harwich Community Center uh that it's conceivable that the Regional School District which is across the street the high schools across would want to use that for their swim team but it could be used for others when I refer to an historical in uh situation I'm from quinsey and originally and I think long before the school building authority was set up um the city of quinsey knocked down two elementary schools one called the Lincoln School and one called the Hancock school and they built a brand new school and they called it the Lincoln Hancock school but people in the neighborhood wanted a swimming pool so they put a they put a pool in the building and they call it I think it's still called the Lincoln Hancock community school and I think it's available not just for the students at the school um but for the at large I think they probably have you know different um sessions for swimming opportunities so you could do something like that I would think um in conjunction with um the other towns in the school districts so I I hope that answers at least it gives you perspective of what I think a community school a community pool could be but the the fundamental point is that the town of chattam I don't think can afford to build a swimming pool on its own if we were I know the Recreation committee commission has been interested in a pool I think the chair of that we haven't talked with you haven't talked with m to the fry have you I don't think so she I think she wants a community a swimming pool somewhere um so there is some interest when we um did the previous study we had a petition article that was a petition that was submitted to us signed by at least 100 people in town so we um proceeded with that but we went to town meeting to get the money anyway so is this more specifically to to ask the town if they it for permission to discuss with other towns because I from my perspective it seems you I certainly don't need to be convinced about the the merits of having a community pool and I think the town in general has sort of shown that interest but this is so that we can ask the people about talking with regional Partners yeah but I don't think we need the permission to go a town meeting to do it but I think the sentiment on the select board after Ros presented this to us was let's see if the town really wants us to do it let's get a sense of the voters at town meeting I mean we could have put it on the ballot I mean that was somewhat more extreme I think but we wanted to take the temperature of of the voters at town meeting to see if they really wanted us to do something like this John please yeah thanks I've SE no reason not to support the non-binding get a sense of the town meeting floor on whether this is something we shouldn't spend time exploring um I mean I'll support it and coincidentally I actually grew up in West Harford and this is where I learned to swim in Cornerstone and it is it's a fantastic facility um for all the all the uses you described um and I remember when we were converting the Main Street School into the community Center the swimming pool was a big big part of that conversation and consideration ultimately we didn't do it and I still hear from people all the time that we should have so um let's see what the town meeting has to say and um hopefully if it's in not only in the affirmative but strongly in the affirmative the select board will respond and chart a course for exploration thank you Eric um couple things so in the ask here you know we there's a mention of harwitch and Orleans and Brewster's been thrown out is anyone else involved in this conversation right now is anyone else having this conversation because if so even the part about the harch community center um potential so it's this is the only place where this is being discussed right now well I only know what reses presented to us and I I think you have spoken with someone at harch but I but I'm not aware of any interest or exploration going on in any other town or even the school district I don't think that that there has been a lot of support for the from hartch on the proposal of course it was an Olympic siiz pool and it wasn't uh talked about as pooling our resources so uh I don't think harwitch is uh going to is enthusiastic about voting uh for the thing on their non-binding that's what I've heard from some of the hartian who are trying to get this brought forward so probably harwit is not going to vote Yes okay thank you and um so I know it's a nonbinding um ask here I'm I'm not going to support this um from from our from my position here um I think sounds like it's really probably not the question isn't quite ready for Prime Time what's being brought to us and being brought to being brought to the town meeting to to even ask um I have I know there's a lot between now and when we'd be at the point of really being to able to analyze this but I have significant concerns about the ongoing costs of a of a this kind of a facility for for the town town or the school district which ultimately is the towns um you know from a from a cost of operation Staffing ongoing maintenance replacement Cycles um these are very expensive facilities I don't you know there it be very nice to have but that doesn't mean that financially the town would ever be able to get to the point where it would make sense for us to do it so I know that's not the ask here and and and maybe maybe not where where people people are are looking at for this question but I think creeping the door open to say yes you know it's okay to have these discussions or or whatever the actual ask is is you know could cost us 30 or 50 or $100,000 more we we threw $50,000 away at at the chadam health club study um really for no reason and I think you know unless town were all the other towns were were all on board and there was some kind of true Regional approach which it sounds like it may not even be possible to have a regional approach or something like this without going through the school district then you're not going to be able to bring Orleans and Brewster in without some other some other convoluted connection for that so I know it's a simple ask you know do you want to talk about it more but I think it creeps the door open for us to spend money that potentially would be wasted Joanne please thank you Mr chair well I for one don't mind stirring up the present just a little bit in order to take a good look into the future and I think a pool whether it's Community Town whatever is uh uh it might be in the future of chadam and so I think it bears looking at so I'm in favor of at least giving it a chance for discussion at Town Meeting thank you Christian please um I share Eric's concerns this immediately speaks dollar you know expenditures and all the things that you said Staffing um so a huge um expense in the future if it were to come to fruition and um I know it's not binding we keep saying it's non-binding but I would hope that our elected officials would respect whatever the town meeting vote was um regardless of what the subject was U for a non a non-binding vote on whatever the issue might be um so I would sort of expect that our select board would follow through if it were positive and and there are going to be dollar signs um no matter what um you know while we can do a lot of our own homework um that's really um anyway th those are my concerns and I agree with Eric and I don't mean to be a killjoy um because I can certainly see the benefits but there there's a huge F fiscal implication um with this project thank you Tracy please I guess I just wanted a a clarification is it is it a question is there a n non-binding resolution on hares Town warrant it sounded like that's what you were saying this year for for this exact question no it's a different question Rous if you could take the microphone please thank you harwit is looking at building an olympic size pool that was what's on the that's what's on their uh ballot is it a but is it a regional question or it's har deciding if they want to Hart build an olympic size pool um it would be Regional but um it's not clear U that it would have anything to do with the schools or that would it would be a facility which is what we were talking about that would not that we've learned a little bit since that one went on the ballot I mean um I have talked to uh uh Mr oton who's put that on the ballot and he basically said Olympic because I had said Olympic and I got more information and no we don't want an Olympic pool and so it was already on the ballot as an Olympic pool and uh behind and it was supposed to be be uh behind the uh hartch Community Center so people aren't excited about putting an Olympic S Pool behind the harage community center um he so that's the reason U that I think it hasn't gone forward there's but that doesn't mean that if we were exploring a regional one the whole point of having a regional system is so that it costs less money I mean if you had four towns supporting it then you would have something that was doable but no you know that's why we don't have a pool because one town it would be way more expensive than chadam could afford to have one just our town having a pool I just wanted to clarify if which's Vote or question is about a regional pool sounds like no it's no it's an Olympic pool behind their their uh Community Center and um we don't need an Olympic pool at all so I can see why they aren't that they haven't they haven't thought of the concept of looking at it as a pulling our resources that's the point to pull our resources because no one town can afford the price tag of running a pool it's expensive but if we pulled our resources which is what this is asking us to think about then it would be reasonable to have a regional pool it's not reasonable for each little town to have a a pool because it would be way too expensive we need to pull our resources if I could just say one more thing that to me it would make sense to initiate conversations with harwitch and these other towns and if there is some interest from the other towns then approach our town to me this sort of like teases something out when there's no reason to believe that that it's something that everybody wants to me it would make more sense to start with those conversations with the other towns thank you this this strikes me and I I've got Andy up next and then John but it it's kind of like strikes me as asking my kids if they'd like to go to the Caribbean for 10 days it's like who's going to say no right but there are cost to that and implications of that I thought I heard this the superintendent say that there's no land available at any anywhere in the school system um I thought Bas based on what I know that Brewster and their acquisition of C camps got a pool um so I'm not sure why Brewster would have any interest in sharing a pool now suddenly with Chad Moran and I would think if you have four towns sharing a pool you probably need two Olympic siiz pools but what do I know Andy please thank you I I I'm I'm just going to go back to the simple question apparently the select board would like to measure our voters interest in them trying to figure out a way to do a regional sing pool i' I'd say fine go ahead I mean that's I'd argue there's no reason why our select board couldn't explore it without any of this but nevertheless if you'd like to find out what the voters think fine ask that question I'd be happy to support that right but I I wouldn't be too confident what the answer is going to be John please yeah I a lot of good comments have been made I have a lot of the same questions and concerns and my my decision to support this moving forward today has nothing to do with how I may vote for it on town meeting floor or after if we do get a feasibility study how it treat it after that but perhaps given the past 10 years of project development in the town and the criticisms that have been levied on the process Perhaps it is a good idea to start with a conversation or a hands up hands down on the concept of exploring something with town meeting no cost you think it's a good idea or not pretty sure a lot of the questions and concerns that have been levied today at the table are going to come up or be in the mind of people on town meeting floor knowing the town meeting citizenry but that's the way I see it thank you John Joanne please yes thanks Mr chairman there we're all expressing so many questions and about the unknown and doubts and that's the reason you have a chance to speak on it and let the public speak on it uh otherwise we don't know but what it might be something really great for this town but why should we pass up a chance uh to express ourselves and get information when at this point it isn't costing us anything and the selectman will decide whether to go forward to it or not and then have to then we'll have the conversation about the cost of a feasibility study all over again thank you Eric so I'm I'm the new kid here so you know I may I I I may have a different concept or understanding of our role as a finance committee in when question like this or any question comes before us and then and then it's going to town meeting it is going this question is going to be asked at town meeting the selectman have put it on the warrant I see our role it as us weighing in on the benefit of that and if it's the as Andy says the pure question of you know do you is anyone going to support it or not you know maybe there's a there's a there's a thought that it's okay just to say yes I think I'm looking at as the next step that if I'm looking at the warrant and I'm thinking about where I'm getting my information from I Look to how the finance committee has weighed in on ABCD or any anything and I think it's I think it's part of my role or our role here to look ahead at where that is and where it's going to go so maybe I'm looking too far ahead and I don't understand exactly what our particular role is but part of the reason I'm going to vote no is I think coming from the finance committee we are making a recommendation to the people that are coming in that already have the opportunity to say yes or no we're not denying them that chance we're giving them our opinion from our from this position you know what we think and I think it's not not a not something that I would support now or in the future and that's that's why I would vote against it all right unless there's anything further I'm going to ask for a motion uh to support the proposed question shall the town of chadam explore participating in a regional swimming pool facility is there a so moved is there a second second Joann sprag yes Tracy Shields no Kristen Andres no Andy young yes John papalardo yes Tommy Don no Eric Whitley no cheer votes no okay thank you everybody thank you RZ thank you Dean what was the vote on that M was one two three in favor five against thank you all right next item on the agenda is the draft of the report of the finance committee on the annual 2024 town meeting warrant uh I have received a number of emails with conceptual Thoughts with edits with you forgot a parag a period there or a w over here or all of which I'm grateful for um I'm just going to throw out a jump ball what uh where are we how do people kind of feel about the latest draft um here's our chance Tracy please I think I think it reads really really well um the only thing that I noticed it sort of not having is is a and maybe it was because we decided it wasn't the appropriate place to put in a bit of a nudge about that question of what we were talking about like building to budget okay thank you others how do how do we can certainly do that what uh and we've raised that topic you know I think you know many members of the committee have raed that over the past several years how do people feel about throwing something into the report about that I think it's it's a good thing to put in to ask try to explore that more I mean I haven't yet heard a substantive answer to the question whether we even can do that right we was sort of presume that we could but I don't really know perhaps we could ask the town manager her view on whether is a practical matter something like that's feasible we again we spoken about this previously as a committee is it is that something that that we can actually do if we were to put A little nudge in as Tracy said and and to be clear I think for anybody who's watching it's it's the question is sort of stipulating a budget for a project of X and have it built to X even if the bids come in at something point something times x u is there way of really sticking to a budget so because there's so many steps to a process for a new project a new structure and so forth um we have have to take many steps to get from concept to feasibility to cost estimates to budget to tell meting approval once it's approved there's there's everything we can do to keep it within the budget and you know contrary to public believe our fish Pier project was done uh within budget so um I don't know how you take away the Public's involvement from each process to set a budget when it's not that we can it's a year before we'd be able to come back to town meaning it's it's I think with the transfer station project this year with the ballot question we we had it estimated we had it phased but the bids came in $2 million higher than we expected so we awarded the first phase of the project and we're coming back to complete the project voters certainly can can vote against completing the project but if you gave us you know for for a pool if you gave us you know $2 million to do it I don't know how we could even start until we had the actual funds authorized and that's per Mass General law so it's it's a it's a interesting question it's just a very challenging implementation with the process Jo yes Mr chair uh I as I told you I'm honored to have my name on this it's a terrific report there is one question I have and I it's one that I've is not new before we move on let's stick with it if we could please with Tracy's oh I'm sorry thought we were done with it I mean again it's it's sort of asked and answered but what do we what do we think I still think it might like uh some verbage that might even highlight that you know the fish Pier was built to budget which I don't think people are really aware of um but it seems to me that projects once they're getting worked on and then other committees you know put their put and I gather I I understand the value of it being a multi-purpose facility but like 90 Bridge Street for example like more and more kind of things have grown on to it than the original you know when the original um Bond was was issued and there was a a line placeholder amount in there and then it sort of feels when you when we go back to town to ask for more money to finish a project it kind of feels like we're held hostage to finishing the project and having to spend more money in order to do so uh the one thing I will observe is that that um Ted Keon last week in our meeting and a week previously in a meeting that I'd had him with with him and a number of Town officials made it I thought very clear at least made it clear to me in in the in the smaller meeting that the scope of that project had not changed over time and again maybe Town manager can speak to that um so I just want to be clear on that one kind of point of fact yeah definitely so the plans um that were at I think 90% design have not changed since 2021 it just took at least three years for us to get to that project because we were working on the fish Pier observation deck the Trap dock so all along we had a couple of committees working on different aspects of review but by the time it got to the design and got it estimated it really hadn't changed and I I think that was really Illuminating to me participating in that meeting as well in 2018 they had we called it the cray sketch and it did have that same bulkhead and so forth so it's again each level of design has more detail more detail provides a better opportunity for costing it out Kristen please yeah I would just reiterate and um um having been involved on the south Coastal Harbor plan committee at the time and having those joint meetings with all the Committees there were multiple interests by each group um but that was at the time when we bought that property we uh we thought that was everybody thought that was great to have this multi-purpose and um you know everybody would get their piece um or their their right of of use of the property in some way so um and I guess um along the lines of talking about the um how projects are financed I think that um the Waterfront bond has been a great um tool for for the town U again just to reiterate the fact that having that money set aside for projects and then being able to seek the grants and the permits I I do want to make a point that all of these Waterfront projects are the permitting is like crazy like years of Permitting there's so many working pieces and obviously you're not just building with a contractor that you can get anywhere you're working with specific Marine um type contractors and so it's um anyway I think that the Waterfront Bond um mechanism has worked worked really well for the town I think we just kind of ran into this horrible timing between pandemic and um supply chain and you know the constraints of M Municipality of paying paying um prevailing wage and you know this is not like putting an addition on your house it's a totally different type project um so I just wanted to make those points I don't know if they're going to make their way into the report but I wanted to reiterate those because I think um it's important aspect is we're kind of uh dealing everybody's dealing with SH with with sticker shock um but there are reasons for it thank you Tommy please thank you Mr chairman I think that you know the scope of the projects don't change but the materials keep going up and up and just like Kristen said I mean it was almost two years from the time we voted for it till the time we started to build and buy and how do we take all that into consideration well and I think that's part of where I was kind of trying to go in in I think the eye opener section was at some level perhaps it's a communication issue um because it doesn't sound just listening to this conversation and I think other conversations we've had on this topic that there's necessarily an easy fix of saying build it for 5 million bucks because you'll end up with a you know a swimming pool the size of this room for example um in some instances perhaps um so if the issue is one of sticker shock and for example using 90 Bridge Street as we have highlighted in our report this thing went from $4 million which the select board even initially said let's try to make it less expensive uh back in what 17 18 um to $1.4 million now how do we keep the citizen aware of that and keep them on side right if there truly are kind of no Alternatives other than building a half a transfer station or a small swimming pool or is the fixed communication so that's why I kind of postulated that as a potential solution uh in keeping everybody informed so we don't have that sticker shock so there's a more sense of kind of incrementally walking people up the ladder rather than seeing it go from four to 11.4 um that suitably address the issue John yeah I did I you know the eyeopener section of the letter was excellent in fact I think this letter that um the draft in front of the committee is the best letter of the past six years that I've seen it just keeps getting better and better and I think that's a reflection of us working together well um and having a good working relationship with the town staff um and the back and forth so I think we're making progress if I I think I remarked to you on the phone the other day I went back and looked at some of the previous letters and I can see the progress of the um the process that um has evolved over time bringing in um uh what was it the mass the the Consultant Group out west and western Mass to sort of educate the community on how to manage debt and the municipal budgeting and everything like we've we've gotten educated and gotten better at at what we're doing um I wanted to go back to the question that was before us on putting a a cap allocating an amount of money towards a project and yeah please I guess you know how how the heck would how the heck would we or or the select board decide what the appropriate amount of money is for the project and you know I don't know what the basis would be without going through the process of getting the bids you know you put your spec sheet together but then the people that do the work are going to have to tell you what it would cost labor materials and everything but but then I'm thinking well we kind of handle that or approach that with with on the waterfront side with the bond um authorization how are those numbers put in where where's the basis for those numbers are those guesses as well um 11.4 to do these five projects over five years you know we've have some experience given um 90 Bridge Street and a couple other Pro projects that our guesses aren't necessarily on the mark anymore so is that how we're sort of addressing this fluctuation in cost of materials and labor by going to a bond structure and should we think that this 11.4 is actually going to get 60 or 70% of the projects listed done for that amount of money so when we first were looking at the bond back in 2017 we worked with the engineers uh for all of the projects and I think even before that because it was primarily about the fish Pier project there was a detailed I think it was even more than a feasibility study on on on a on the look of the or looking at the fish Pier of everything that it needed based on community input of to to keep it as a municipal fish Pier but as a working fish Pier for the the Waterfront so I know and that was well before my time so that's that's before 2011 so again it's time that it takes to go through the review and process we essentially have a cap the cap is that we have to when we put forward a ballot question and in the town meeting article before that you've seen in other projects I mean look at the first project I was involved in was the fire station I think I got here was already the third time or so we were able to look at um the estimates and changing opms and engineers and so forth so that we had a really good I don't want to say guess but a a cost estimate that had various contingencies and you've seen it in all the projects it's worked I it's so infrequent that even in my career I've had to go back to town meeting for an additional Bond authorization I think it's just a really unique time of of the pandemic and of um supplies and then actually having the construction companies available when they're all doing so much of the work um even on Cape that could be used like for those who are working on the sewer projects throughout the cape you know they may be able to do a component of say 90 brident I'm not sure that's the case so there's there's so many things working against us including the time but the process is really important and the public process I understand that there's a frustration with the finance committee you know hearing the numbers but there's been committees that have been working on it and there's also been transition um with staff too so that we have we're picking up on on some things after working for the last you know six years on the fish pier and the trap do projects and those were all encompassing for us so um I I'm not sure what you called your section of the report um but there's a there's a lot of components and certainly you know my commitment and staff's commitment of of keeping fincom up to date and having the reports to the select board and have it on a project page that's easy to find I mean we absolutely do that it's again this it's really unheard of to have to come back for an additional Bond authorization John please well I appreciate that you know I've been thinking a lot this this cycle about you know H how to turn that frustration that I've expressed at several meetings into something positive and I I'm struggling to come up with a better process than you know we've discussed here um and I don't know if it if it's a question a process or not or if as you as you state um you know it's a Confluence of uh bad timing and external forces at play um but I you know at the end of the day I guess I'm comforted by um the open dialogue we all have and the town meeting approach and the ultimate decision- making and town meeting floor and you know you know keeping ultimately keeping an eye on the balance of debt the town is carrying and servicing as sort of the ultimate lever um to to control all of this thank you Andy did you have we Joan I know you still have your other question but I think we're still working working this issue Andy um yeah I found it I'm not sure about the rest of you but I found it really Illuminating the last presentation we we had on 90 bridge and the bond because you know as much as we all try to keep up with things in town read the paper Etc you know that detailed rundown the history of what happened was really interesting because it became evident that the scope hadn't really changed that there was a lot of public process in the sense of public meetings of public bodies but it just didn't get out there it didn't get out there in a way that I think most of us were able to to keep track of to consume I don't know how to fix that um but it's a you know it it relieved my mind significantly about 90 bridge I frankly don't know how you can go about and say you know build this for this price and that's it other than to say gee we're we're not going a word of contract because if you get in too significantly into changing specifications or design next thing you know all the other BS are going to be arguing that this was you know did not comply with the state bidding law right because you you've gone and messed with really the whole bid package um why don't they get another chance to bid it and then we go into the you know if it takes another year or two to get it out there then we're again you know suffering cost increase Rees that seem to come along anyway I think that the you our chair is idea of more publicity more information better exchange of information about how these multi-year brands are going you know I I'm not sure what else we could do frankly um other than to not do multi-year bonds just take project by project individual you know Finance it you know if it is a bond but just by project and then we run into the whole you issue of permit you know which which permits going to take longer shorter it it turns into quite a mess I think well funding availability for Grant applications and support of Grant applications to christen's point correct well particularly for the Waterfront stuff exactly I mean the state and pass through federal funds on that depend on the town committing to a certain amount of work a certain amount of money upfront so maybe a solution for consideration by the committee and perhaps the town Administration is to avoid I I don't think we can control for sticker shock in the community right you can watch the meetings you can read the paper you can talk to committee members we you can only kind of do so much but in so far as this committee is concerned we I think have I'd like to think we have the ability to perhaps do a little more you know maybe get we get a semiannual up formal update on open projects um you know when I was on running audit committees and large not for-profits we'd get excuse me semiannual litigation updates you know sort of what are what what are what are the cost exposures we are looking at periodically and and have a complete rundown of these things and you'd take an hour out of a meeting and just have a formal update which would presumably serve to mitigate let everybody answer the qu ask the questions would serve to mitigate sticker shock and concerns over you know overruns and you know scope creep etc etc so might might be something for the administration to think about yeah sure certainly open to that Tracy please I I really like that idea my bringing it up is more because I'm concerned that the bond is going to fail and I want it to pass um but I feel like people are going to say oh the the at how much the not to keep harping on 90 Bridge Street but look how much that has gone up from the other thing and then the other items that we want to that are in the bond are going to end up costing more and I I think that indicating that we're mindful just in some way that we're trying to be mindful of preventing the the explosion of cost of a project um in some way or that that the town is is you know maybe it's things that you are already doing like we were like you just said some of that but this is a document in which some people might feel reassured voting yes for the bond if they feel like there's some eye on keeping it within as close to within just even paying attention to budget I think that there's a misconception that that the town doesn't pay much attention to the budget of a project they just want to do the project and I would rather mitigate that so that we can get it pasted all right further conversations regarding the Waterfront Bond or should we move over to 2an point oh Andy uh just more specifically having to do with the Waterfront Bond I I think um the first call out the warrant based Capital spending um we never do get around to putting in there what our final vote on recommendation for that project is and I think it should show up there we talk about the reconsideration we talk about the initial vote but we don't talk about the final vote for that article and if I'm not mistaken I'll check when I get home but if I'm not mistaken following the prior conversation we had on that that topic broadly I did put in a sentence saying for the avoidance of doubt the committee voted X to Y to support the Waterfront Pond all right I just have that that that is in there if I'm not mistaken okay I only have yesterday I'll double check I only have yesterday's version correct all right Joanne thank you for your patience Mr chairman and don't forget we have voted uh in favor of this article even though some of us voted against the committee voted in favor of the bond issues which is what we're talking about and I'm as I said I'm very proud of this report and very proud to have my name attached to it there's one area that uh I would like to discuss and that's in your section on an eyeopener that's on page well these Pages aren't no but it's you have housing then you have an eye opener and you talk about the initiative has now turned into an 11.4 million so forth and so on while various open meetings among the Committees working on the project as well as with the select board have been held in then intervening 6 years plus we suspect there is very little public Awareness on how expensive this project has become my recommendation would be that right there in order to inform the public is to put in what the hand out from the administration to us on the bonding on the debt schedule for this article as well as for the transfer station that there was a a a prediction that for instance in FY 26 the average uh cost on on the average um taxpayer or the the the $1.2 million home would be $96 that gives us very good idea of what the project will cost and if I'm not mistaken that I just got us I I've had a couple of those where uh car has given us the the debt for years for as long as the the debt and each each year shows us what the effect on the average $1.1 million sometimes she uses 1.2 what's a mill half a million here and there but she tells us the projected uh amount on the tax rate for that average home for each year of the bonding on this issue I think that's important that's not just talking about it that's showing uh a prediction of what it's going to cost understood so what do people think about that should we should we highlight Tracy it's my understanding that the the chart that you're speaking of from Carrie was if all of the bond was borrowed in year one which we all said was very unlikely so I don't know how we make a chart which does seem like a valuable thing to see but have it when we don't know how much is going to go into each year I don't have it here but I think me Joanne you may but I think there were one at least one maybe two examples where Carrie broke out specific projects as opposed to the whole Waterfront bond issue yes and and I be and I know there a lot of hypotheticals around that because who knows when you begin to bond who knows what your interest rate is going to be so it's it's indicative it's not de it's demonstrative it's not determinative and I would let the uh the administration take a look at that and if we put something in this report to that effect fact uh referencing the the uh handouts that we got um maybe you could talk to the chairman or decide I don't know but to me it's important and you ask for what we would change if we could no 100% And if I could that's what I would put in there to give them some idea the voters what it will be 2 three years from now uh if if bonded and we voted to bond it the uh $1.4 million since the finance committee is making that recommendation what is the actual result of that any objections to throwing in some language like that and again noting that it's it's kind of hypothetical given what we just said around when we Bond how much we it cost to bond etc etc any object and whatever other grants or other monies might be received okay we're we're looking into a future that's quite cloudy we don't know what going to happen well I would guess the Administration has been pretty good at making that projection and as close as we can get to it I think would be honest with the taxpayers when they go to vote on this issue yeah I can talk to Carrie about that I know what she's done for each article she's had the tax rate impact um in addition to borrowing but I I just need to connect with her on that sure okay other comments or observations thank you Mr chair all right well so uh the window's still open we've got a couple more days I'll work in these comments that everybody's made uh into the latest draft I'll circulate that probably tonight uh and then we're going to meet again on Thursday uh to go through kind of the remaining open articles and it'll be our last swing at the ball with respect to the report um I would like to take a moment to give a shout out which we do in the report um but to highlight car's role uh as our new Finance director it's it can't be an easy transition um to you know learn a new system and you know new people and you know new finance committee members and she was thrown right in the deep end of a very deep pool and I think she did a terrific job and we are not easy yeah well I don't know if we're easy or not but um I just wanted to give her a shout out I think she did a terrific job in support of this committee this season so agreed um all right anything further if not I'll take a motion to adjourn so move thank you everybody Joan yes I'm sorry second anybody thank you John Joan out yes Tracy yes Kristen yes Andy y John yes Tommy yes Eric yes chair in favor 8 to nil thank you everybody appreciate [Music] it for