e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] good morning hi I'm Frank massina and this is the July 23rd 2024 meeting of the chatam historical commission before we start we have a couple of announcements uh please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly Hereafter for scheduled and ond demand viewing on a smartphone or tablet device if anyone else is recording the meeting please notify the chairman pursuant to Governor Hy's March 29 2023 signing of Acts of 2023 extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of Emer emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting Lord General Lord 30820 until March 31st 2025 this meeting of the chatam historical commission is being conducted in person and via remote par participation every effort will be made to ensure the public can adequately address the proceedings as provided for in the order a reminder that persons who would like to listen to the meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 508 945 conference ID 468 813 618 hashtag or join the meeting online via Microsoft teams through the link in the posted agenda while this is a live broadcast and simcast on Chanel TV despite our best efforts we may not be able to provide real for realtime access we will post the a record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as possible okay um the next uh action we need to do is take a roll call for those here or calling in remotely uh bober here Steve Burling game here Stephanie Hamilton Steph is abson Sandy Porter here Janet Tennyson here Robert Stevenson Robert Stevens Robert is gone and Nancy bar here okay we have a quorum uh Robert is on vacation I'm not sure where Stefan is I'm going to just pause a second uh Mr Dre is calling in uh maybe he's not connected is is Eric Dre connected hey Eric tried four times it's not letting me go through me I'll resend it to him right now okay um Christina will send you the link right now okay okay great boy it's a new world we have right okay glad I left my phone on you couldn't hear that ring right just rings in my head all right okay um just quickly we can proceed while Eric is trying to make a connection uh with the minutes we have minutes of July 18 2024 June 18 one more time Annie did a good job any comments questions additions deletions of the minutes of uh June 18th have a motion to adopt the minutes I move approval of the minutes okay we need the second second thank you very much okay Bob yes Steve yes Sandy yes Janet um I wasn't here but they look good to me oh you were absent okay stain all right Nancy yes and the chair votes yes by the way the chair voted yes for attendance so I am here in case there was any doubt okay all right so we eliminated the minutes no uh Eric Dre yet okay well we'll do a preamble uh a couple of things just quickly technically we're we're uh once the our our terms of office are over in the summer we're supposed to reorganize uh Nancy has not yet been official so she's here ex officio her term has expired but we don't have any hearings but she's here so what I wanted to do was wait until October October to August for our next meeting when hopefully Nancy will finally have her interview and Beyond and and Bob Stevens were here and then we'll reorganize at that time it's scheduled for Tom sorry sorry Janet was looking me like I thought you were appr I heard you approved at the meeting uh they need to interview me and it's been rescheduled three times it's currently tomorrow let's finger they had to do an in-depth CIA check on it before they anyway in fact it's be quite honestly I I kind of I want complain is the wrong word I just noted to the select board that this process is kind of ridiculous it takes too long and if they don't know us by now they're never going to know us you know so uh they're they're looking at it to see if they can streamline the current position what they do is they need three select people to be interviewed and guess what and it's difficult especially in the summertime so we we will do that and like there's no major objections we'll just reorganize in August uh any luck with Eric yet the reason I asked Eric to join us was that um the primary objective of today's meeting is the U update of the uh form BS and the reports which Eric has done for us over the years uh and I wanted to have a little bit of a Preamble uh okay Eric while that's working out let me jump to the couple of things I was going to talk about afterwards just quickly uh the first thing on Old business we're going to skip new business all right guys uh the uh the national register eligibility of the William and an Nickerson Homestead archaeological site I've had a couple of conversations with Holly herster of pal the archaeological lab and she's working diligently and she's on track hopefully to complete that that document and the preparation of the report by September October so hopefully in September October we could we'll meet review it and then formally uh formally send the application to mass storic Excuse me yes Eric me is working pleas have two different ways of getting on well uh we could do this U can everybody hear Eric yes I'm getting I'm getting a priority interrupt from the control room no sir no good what's the problem he can't he can't make a connection theer I'm sorry I just sent him the link um and I had Sarah Clark upstairs check the link she sent I don't know team sure well he's on the phone here can we use that callam all right Eric y stand by we're going to give you the number okay if if you could call in okay okay 508 945 4410 okay and that means you will be connected via your uh your phone okay try that give him that code Eric y uh then you have to put the conference ID in and the conference ID is 468 813 618 asht it's on it's on the agenda that we sent to you right okay sorry about thatz I remember when beepers were the latest technology we're dating ourselves okay uh so anyway so in in September October we should be able to submit that and that would be great if we could make that happen um can I interrupt here Mr uh Lear do we have any inputs from the uh your foundation relative to this process the foundation board met uh two weeks ago I guess and agreed to cooperate and collaborate whatever with the the historic commission and we want to have a look at the U memorandum of understanding with the Nickerson Family Association to see if we could massage that a bit to to cover that but we've been uh busy with some benefits so took some priority over this well I I appreciate that that was uh Gary Nickerson who's a member of the Nickerson Family Association who's we got another lawyer around here who wants it to be formalized so that I think that's good that we do that all right any luck Eric y I'm here all right excellent all right now now you got to hold on because we we jumped ahead so anyway that's who we are with the Nickerson Family Association and the national register eligibility issue and again once it once we get a favorable re uh answer from Mass historic then we as a commission and the town can proceed with the neckers and Family Association if we want to make a formal application that's going to cost a little more money and we need to work about work on that the second item under old business which we're jumping ahead to is the US Coast Guard boat houses we're all aware the the bond issue fail the town meeting the boat house is still sitting up there in Quincy waiting to come back home to chadam uh there is um some discussion uh to to modify the proposal to I guess dot the eyes and cross the teas on the funding request to try and finish I think they need a couple of million dollars to finish the effort there's significant amount of community preservation funds which were already committed to restoring the boat house as you know uh repurposing it as an upweller you know at 90 Bridge Street I I would mention to this to the members of the board of commission the historical commission who interested and supportive I think as I personally was the last 25 years uh the select board nothing happens right away in this town the select board is meeting I believe on August 6 and I believe it's going to be on the agenda so if you're interested and I hopefully you are and supportive if you could come or tune in to that August 6 select board meeting and encourage enourage the Selectmen to uh see if we can do something to bring bring the The Boat House home we can't bring the boat home that we gave away to orans we can bring the boat house home uh all right that was all the old business Eric yep good I'd like to recognize Eric Dre uh Eric is our preservation consultant to the historical commission and Eric over the years has been involved with the process Eric did you work on the original one the survey I did that means you're not surve original survey plan yeah that's 2014 that means you're not 39 anymore right okay well I get right here to prove it well again for new members of the commission we have one not not that new Nancy uh when you were on the commission we were still doing them by hand we were doing them I know we were doing them ourselves ourselves and well with some help for the architectural part but we did the other parts yeah yes and then I guess it was after that around 2010 I believe uh da was chairman when we said well you know what there's a lot of work and and it's getting more and more important and I think as I like to tell the tale when Nancy and I were on the commission back then if we had one application a month it was a lot I mean last year I think we had what 66 66 applications so things are moving too quickly and and it was a need that we need to formalize and professionalize if that's a word or not you know the whole process so in 2014 we did an extensive uh survey of town of the Town Eric did we do every residence over 50 was that was that the criteria at the time yeah okay so we completed that and we effectively did a survey what was done whether it should be done whether whether it was not so Eric made I would say a a preliminary assessment relative to the historical significance of the property is that a good way to put it Eric um yeah B based based on sort of windshield sort of observation and looking at uh assessor uh property cards so so not a deep dive but just sort of a cursory looking at each building and determining whether it looks like it's something that's worthy of a Form B okay so this this has really been the diary for Christine and Michelle and Sandy I guess before them or Patty Buck I guess was you know the people who were in fact the administrative people in the office to make a decision on on how to advise us how do we proceed you know is this something worthwhile fortunately or unfortunately the the current bylaw the way it's written the determination of historical significance rests with the commission itself so that you know we make the decision whether something historically significant uh what we did in intrum we created the so-called administrative review process which is helps eliminate and you know some of it but we're still in the situation of of needing to know what's going on in the community now Eric did an update in 2020 three which you all have or at least you have seen it we have a couple of cop extra cop here if you somebody wants to look at every every every page but in the in the uh your packet you receive from Eric a an abbreviated s you know an abbreviation of the survey plan and also his recommendations when we did this update in 2023 which I guess that was in the midst of Co the purpose was it to take a a hard look at Eric's recommendation and say well where do we go from here you know what do we do what we don't do and kind of relied on Eric to give me give us some recommendations of what we could or could not do uh to update the form B's uh just quickly if I may um lean upon you you know for the five members of the public who are watching well maybe six you know you know what does a Form B how did it come about and you know when is is Massachusetts alone in this concept of uh uh cultural resource information system or is it a Nationwide process um no the form BS or building forms are fall under the category of documentation and documentation is the first of three steps of preservation planning and preservation planning starts with documentation and then it's evaluation sort of determining how significant relatively speaking certain resources are and then the third step is protection what kind of preservation measures may you want to take to um protect properties that you have evaluated and that have been documented that are highly significant so every town uh in Massachusetts certainly and um other states have other ways of doing this the the their main task task number one is trying to get to a comprehensive uh documentation of their historic resources um and mass historical commission has developed forms to be used for buildings and for areas where it's a collection of buildings that have a common either architectural or or historical uh connection and then there are forms for cemeteries um structures and objects as well and and archaeology um and uh this work as as you may know you goes back to the 1970s is when when people started doing this forbs but back then they were not surprisingly extremely cursory in in what they included um and you know like most uh products that um that come out of you know the state or government uh the requirements to get it completed are are more much more extensive now the information being requested is more extensive but also importantly the ability to access good historical information is much more available now back in the day for example you would never have done title searches when you're doing you know documenting a hundred houses for example that would just just have been Way Beyond the scope um of that kind of consultancy but now we can do it online uh and also uh we have access to through ancestry.com to you know a whole Bevy of of uh uh Vital Statistics and Records so you can really piece together the story of the history of properties much much more than you were able to in the past well that's great uh I you know I just wanted to put it in perspective and you know from my point of view you know I agree everything you said obviously but when a decision is being made relative to is a property historically significant a lot well what does that mean you know what is what is in fact the uh architectural significance of a building and you know what's the difference between a queen and and what's you know you know we we all come from different backgrounds as a commission you know and uh it's good to have a professional uh help us guide us you know when we make the the the the decision well is this Worthy is this something which is uh worthy to be to saved or to be documented in some way so that's great uh I guess I'm kind of making the case for myself and to us and to the public and to the powers to be that well as much as we've done and we've done a lot okay I think we're probably pretty much up there in terms of the communities on the cape and terms of the the the number and the quality of our form bees Eric you agree yeah I think that y yeah I'm looking for a pat on the back okay so uh but now the the question from my point of view is uh and I think we have initiated the idea we need to take another look at it and why and I think Christino I both have noticed sometimes when a building or a structure comes before us and it's in an an area okay and what they did in the 80s and 90s they did area forms well guess what we're not the area is not coming before us a specific building is coming for us and we don't know anything about that building okay and that's one of the recommendations Eric if I correct on your your page six that we should take a look at and well actually actually that's um not to speak I mean that's actually not accurate um the the the the the the past um phases of survey work have I think pretty much covered all of those kinds of uh you know 19th century early 20th century properties have been documented um where we are now is well you want me to sort of summarize what the recommendations are Frank can you give me that again Eric yeah do you want me to just summarize what the recommendations are yes okay yeah why don't you do that yeah yeah because because it's not that buildings there are in areas and haven't been surveyed part of the problem is that um not the surprisingly some of the most significant um houses and oldest in shatam um were surveyed first and um but those survey forms are now frankly out of date um you know as they between 1978 and 91 so they're at least uh you know 33 years old and um the architectural description is is is inadequate and the photo documentation and other elements of it are inadequate as well well um and I think the reason why it's particularly important is that a lot of those resources also happen to fall within one of Chatham's National register districts or in the historic business districts which means you know that they're going to be reviewed potentially at some point and and I I I think it will benefit the town and show respect to the owners of these properties that they're not pulling out a 33-year-old form to say here that see we have documented your house and you know when it's really not sufficient and it's certainly not sufficient to do the kind of evaluation that you may be called upon to do if if if they come before you so I think it's really important that those get updated they don't need to be redone I think it can be cheaper than just doing new form BS because if if it were decided that the historical narratives on these were sufficient it it's just sort of bringing the rest of it up up to scratch and um and the first who did the vast majority of those Candace jenin she was a very good preservationist and so I think the historical narratives are are are good um I also um and then there's another wave of surveys that were done in late 90s 2000 um that could be a later phase that also would benefit from being updated um and then we didn't complete all the recommendations in the 2014 survey plan there's still I by my calculation about a 100 buildings that have yet to be documented and should be and the priority on those are early to mid 20th century properties that are um again located in the National register districts or the chadam historic business district um but also um I I I had identified good examples of colon Revival and post traditional houses you know for example like the windmill houses that you kind of see in different parts of town that really help contribute to you know to a moment in in in shadam you know development in in colonial revival AR Ure and and a couple of good examples of mid-century modern architecture so so so there's you know there's a fair amount that I think would the town would greatly benefit from from from doing to so bring it up to current standards and then there are um the area forms that I mentioned which again are forms when it's a collection of resources where individually the properties may not need um an individual form be but can be described as part of a collection of buildings have a shared history um and uh I don't know if you've ever seen Mash pit I know Frankie I'm sure you've seen it as there a very Charming 15 Cottage colony in South chadam that's very intact and you know presumably somewhat fragile to potential development pressures um and then you know we have those those really wonderful uh post World War II uh subdivisions you know those the Harding Shores and Harding Beach Hills on the way to Harding Beach and and and River Bay um you know all of which sort of really made a major sort of shift and contribution to uh Chatham's u sense of place and and build out all right well thank you uh I guess you know what we need to do because it's everything related to cost and let's have a discussion if we will you know you have effectively you have one two three four or five potential are is uh but if if you would if you would to flip a coin Eric I guess uh the ones in terms of the highest priority in my view uh would be the uh to update some you know not necessarily the update but some of the the uh the new form bees in the areas we don't have them versus the update what is your what's your sense of that um yeah I think maybe sort of complete being able to to have a complete documentation so yeah doing the the final 100 that would that would really you know finish the job I think would probably be smart especially in as much as they fall you that they may be coming before you at some point um so yeah I and but then next I would I would go back to those 1991 Forbes and update them um because I I also sort of really strong that you know once they're updated and you send them to the owners it sort of will imbue in them hopefully more of a sense of Pride and and a deeper understanding of how the town values these resources and also will be more useful to you when and if they come before you so you really feel that the the 78 91 245 updates is really when you view in terms of I really do because those are some yeah those are some of the most historic houses in town I got you right now I understand where you're coming from okay all right okay all right well any thoughts folks I I have a question for Eric if you mind Eric it's Bob leer um I am involved with another organization that found that in order to qualify for Grants they the town needed a current open space plan is there some comparable ability here that if we update our plans and get them up to standard that we might be eligible for Grants from the state or federal government um yeah well there is a program called certified local government CLG um where towns that have a comprehensive preservation program in place um and I think you already do but it's just gotten better and better um and it's it's a pretty honorous sort of application process through MHC but if you become a certified local government uh a percentage of the money that is sent from the park service from the Department of interior to each state preservation office um because Mass hisorical commission is both the state's preservation commission but also the representative of the federal program um that the federal money that comes to mass historical commission a percentage of that is directly funnel through grants to CLG communities um so it is it would be worth considering okay thank you sorry Bob I missed the first part you were talking about grants for this effort or for another Organization no for this organization the other organization can't do it because the town doesn't have a current open space plan okay well you know it's interesting you should you should say it I I think I have somewhere maybe I took it off uh items on hold uh no I don't on issues on hold in the agenda if you look at the second part of the agenda agenda development of preservation plan that you know you know that's that's there it's something I'd like to do but it's not a it's not an easy job it's a big deal but it sounded like um Eric said that we currently have in place what we would need to qualify is that correct well yeah um and you have money I think you have what you need to qualify to be a certified local government um if if and and I can send information to Frank about that um that would necessarily fund certain projects that you may be interested in I don't think it's a large amount of money and it's you know so I wouldn't necessarily rely on that to fund major initiatives um but um but if you know it can be a good thing well Eric when I when I looked into it you know development of the preservation plan and at various meetings we attended with the cape card commission uh yeah yes it does automatically allow you to receive certain amount of funds but it doesn't preclude you from other Mass historic uh plans and in fact if you look at our agenda under under new business the last paragraph I said is request funding and possible Grant applications you know we we could I mean it's a job and now that we have a new PL Christine if you're listening who we just met uh that's something I would like to pursue you know and the township pursue it you know between Christina and Christine you know it's a task so it's something we could look into and I think the first step quite honestly for us is to kind of give Eric some direction and and get some kind of a a general guidelines in terms of cost and with that number we and Community develop have some idea how much funding would be whether or not they want to go out for an RFP and whether or not we want to prepare a grant you know nothing is going to happen right away it takes time but we need to start the process yes um do we have any funding at all or is is this all of all of this would be new funding the duck just came down most people don't know what that means the duck came down because they're too young but um uh there is the historical commission per se does not have a line item budget of its own right uh we we rely upon the kindness of uh the Community Development Department and Katie Donovan who she's listening in has been very generous in helping us but it's like everything else money is always tight even though it's a what was it $75 million Town budget whatever it is but it's always tight so uh but that's why we'd like to at least give her notice so they can do some planning right you know we can't ask her in in you know in May that we need money it just needs planning and that's that's the whole purpose of this process to do some planning Advanced planning put a a uh effectively a timeline together of what the task are what's the priority and what's going to cost and then we can do some planning the planning would be both identify funding which exists in in current budgets and secondly when we got to just you know put pen to paper I think as a commission in my tenure we only applied for one Grant and we lost because I didn't ask for enough money I asked for 12 and there was a $115,000 limit in the grant but I didn't read that small print so so it was rejected anyway but that's funny but it's true okay uh any other comments or comments yes I'm sorry go yes uh sorry Steve I'm looked this way this way I have a couple one I guess is more specific to this and the other one is not but the initially I've been on the commission for a few years and I have yet to hear um anyone say that the Form B that we may be looking at is in any way inadequate that it's not appropriate it's not enough it's too much it's incorrect or whatever which seems to be some of the reasons that we even looking at this whole process um I guess if it's not broke by fix it um it would appear that the form bees that I've reviewed are have done been done by usually a couple of people and the almost always the two people that I have seen on here I recognize as being very um very aware of the town's history U very dedicated to the work that they were doing um and I guess that's the reason that I that I find the for current form bees to be generally adequate um somebody I don't know who submitted this Form B of the old Atkins house um and apparently they did it because it's got some handwriting on it um that handwriting doesn't bother me at all that that handwriting tells me that somebody uh reviewed it added some information um yeah they didn't type it with a new modern um typewriter or or whatever you use these days to type with um but it um I I don't think that that makes it inadequate inappropriate um or worthy of $30,000 of of U okay review thank you the other sorry the other comment I have um and Eric would be a good reference resource for this is that I reviewed the um the bylaws that some other towns have regarding what they review as historical buildings and they frequently are but I would consider real un um unsalable historic buildings um it might be like the brick block on Main Street um that is clearly historical I think we're getting to the point that we're declaring some things we're suggesting they're historical only because they're part I I think he use the term part of chadam structure or or being or something of that nature not necessarily being historical but being part of the the fabric of of what chadam is you talked about things like uh River Bay to me that those don't reach anywhere near my definition of historical I mean if we have a very very broad um definition of historical sure they are everything is my breakfast was was historical because it happened um actually it didn't but it U could have been um agenda you know I added an item on the agenda the next item I mean if you're going to pontificate on that issue with all due respect sir it's on the agenda the next item uh review for thresholds for exceptions well I think but I'd like to stay stay close to the Form B issue and we don't have to delay it you know discussion very well okay then um I'll save whatever I have to say about the definition of historical um for later on the agenda yeah we added that because you would been asking for it and we have talked about it a lot but we'll talk about it one more time hopefully put it away okay so if I if I could summarize what you're saying Steve is you don't feel we need to do anything as far as the form Vis are concerned I'm I'm not I'm not yet convinced I all right fine I got it you need more you need more evidence have you reviewed the uh the survey and Eric's recommendation I have not I I certainly have reviewed his recommendations um but I'm not yet convinced that we need to spend $30,000 on redoing the well $30,000 is a budgetary to do everything okay and we've already spent at least $50,000 or more over time what we've done so far so the purpose of today's discussion is to review the results of the surveys that we have completed and to determine how we want to proceed uh and this commission has in the past authorized that work and now it's a f of you know all right now we got to decide how how we want to proceed on it okay uh so anybody else Sandy you got any comments on the whole process or what you would like to prioritize if anything I actually um I do think we need the new form bees approximately the the approximate 100 form bees and um the redo because I'm sure Nancy remembers as I remember and you remember these were um not always the old ones were good but they weren't as complete as the new ones that Eric has given us so I'd say number one and number four are um my priorities okay number one being the uh the update the building forms the 24 245 and the second was what uh new form B's the approxim new form B's yeah okay Janet if any kind of comments or no I think um I think I go along with your recommendation okay go ahead all right Bob anything more uh I guess just a question I'm I'm I'm reading this as saying that the new form B's would be estimated at 30,000 and updating the old ones from 1999 would be another 25,000 which means we're talking more than is that correct Eric yeah I mean I hadn't I hadn't come up with the price yet for the updates of the 1991 forms but um but something around that probably would be about right okay all right any anything else um I think I um am tending towards both updating the very old forms and sort of what has already been said I I would say that when I was a member of the commission 20 plus years ago those forms already felt old at that time um although very valuable information was on there but the you know the architectural part and certainly the photo documentation part is way behind what would now be there especially the photo document you know especially the visual aspect um but I do believe that we need to invest in the ones we don't have because I do think that there are multiple systems in place to protect our oldest historic buildings the ones that are in the National register District are probably some of the oldest forms and they also have multiple checks and balances in place now for us to be able able to do our job with them so I don't feel like oh gosh they're hanging out there without any protections so you know if you had to choose I'd probably go with the new ones that are undocumented if you you know because it is a big chunk for each of those um because I think those forms are well done they are out of date um they should probably be updated but if I had to choose between that or the hundred new forms I would go for the hundred new forms okay well it's interesting I when you started to I think at least the 50 form BS that I did should be thrown out because I don't remember anything I did it was it was a it was a this this what am I doing that wasn't before 1991 yeah right [Laughter] exactly Frank one of the things that I think um on page six Eric's recommendations the mash pit the 15 ages those will change if we don't get some paper on those yeah I I that's really important yeah I think what we're saying here if I'm summarize because I'm going back and forth to you guys the there seems to be somewhat a consens is that the the old building forms um from 1978 to 1991 is is a priority did I get that right from people no no yes is it well no I actually would if I had to if we only had money if we had 25,000 for one or the other I'd go for the C part C part C which one C of the recommendation the new forms and the new areas and and then prioritize within that the new forms and the new areas houses within National registered districts well well it says there's 100 properties I would I would want us to spend a little more time to prioritize within that and actually look and see what they are because maybe I would say let's do the new areas vers some of the new areas I don't know if I would do River Bay but some of the new areas before some of the 100 forms but I would want that process to be prioritized um if we really feel like the 1998 to 2000 forms looking at sorry the second part of the B recommendation the redo um you know I guess I don't know if 1978 to 1991 they're old but as Frank saying if 1998 to 2000 were done really poorly then maybe those would be prioritized over the oldest ones I guess we would have to look but my feeling is between the two areas old forms versus undone forms if we had to choose I would choose undone forms and then I would have us do a little bit more reviewing and prioritizing to decide what what part of parts of that we tackled first okay on Eric's letter which I just got a copy of because I was using the wrong one it's item what Eric's letter no number one I'm sorry I'm looking at his plan i' got too many pieces of paper this one okay sorry okay on Eric's letter on Eric's letter I am talking about um three and four being prioritized over one and two all right now I got you all right and and us to look at three and four to decide what within that we'd prioritize and if one and two are going to be done I'd also look at that and decide what to prioritize whether the oldest forms are actually a priority or the ones between 988 98 and 2000 are so bad we should prioritize those I don't know all right so that that's my opinion Bob what's your feeling on that strategy um I I agree I I do think with Nancy that the new fors are the ones to capture what we've got and really bring it up to date and the other question is the the the other areas involve what does bringing it up to date mean and a deeper look at each one of those to see okay so item three and four Sandy oh absolutely I I say again absolutely I think I had okay good said before item four and item three all right Janet I agree with Bob and Nancy okay just a priorization Steve do I understand um when you talk about U this would be in um item four or say that the deed for Form B would only arise if and when they came before uh the commission for demo delay um is is that what I understand we would not be doing it for we would do them on an as needed basis if they can't before the commission for demo delay or demo application Eric no they would just they would they would be done to have them ready if when and if they're needed and they would be done to provide the owners of those houses additional information about why they should care about them you would do it in advance you wouldn't just do that yet okay so the wording yes so what I'm what I'm hearing then is you would do a a Form B on for instance all all the homes in River Bay no that's an area form no there's 100 homes that we haven't talked about that have not been done but have been listed as priority from my understanding and that does not include River got got not in River Bay yet okay okay all right so that's good for the you know what I'm trying to do is sit down with Eric put a real proposal together you know other than these back of the envelope Erics I don't mean to be derogatory but you know there something more specific you know and more delineated so we could go and the purpose and then is to see it we can apply for grant money okay you know to do to do some of these things and I do agree with the comments which have been been been uh said here relative to taxic Trail in South chadam and uh you know Harding showes and all that you know especially the uh the cottage communities and Eric you know personally I would like to prioritize them at in some level because you know the way land is being developed in chadam I just found out there were four Ras in South chadam I didn't know existed which all of a sudden there going to be three or four houses and you know so there's a lot of there's a lot of pressure uh to to build and then with all our good good offices the select board finding ways to put Apartments all over the place so you know all that land is going to be subject and you know I I go past the ones on Main Street and you know by the white White Pond and I said my goodness you know what's going to happen with those things and we need to do something at least to document it you know it doesn't mean we're going to preserve it it doesn't mean it's going to become a national register area but at least document what we have and that's that's the point well I think this has been extremely helpful hopefully to you folks and to myself and we will you know stay tuned there's more work to be done and um Eric I really appreciate your uh your help but if you could if you could hang on there Eric for a little bit um I'm going to leave this now okay and we'll we'll work on something and I'll get back to the commission on this so I've got to good a test and but but just one final note on that just just to make sure they all know part of the survey plan um included um a street index of all the properties that were looked at um and the recommendations and that was updated in 2023 as well so so there is a spreadsheet uh that has every address that we're talking about here so that when we start to look at the next level down to sort of really refine what we want to do it's all there for you to look out no I mean we don't have extra copies of this but they exist in the office don't they and don't I think I've seen it digitally it's available digit like as a PDF so if you really want to look at what Eric is recommending what should be reded what should be surveyed what should which is already done and and don't worry about it so we we do have a rather definitive document which with his recommendation so um a little light reading thank you um okay just quickly now not quickly but we'll move on sorry and I can't find it the next item we wanted to to look at and discuss was the issue of the review of uh the current 158 bylaw relative to the the issue of the 75e threshold for acceptance um our administrator what's your proper title department coordinator Department coordinator our department coordinator Christina uh put together some information for us which you have uh and she looked at the various towns in Massachusetts and you know uh members of the public basically what what we found is that the the the issue with the question is is our 75-year threshold correct should we be doing less or should we doing more uh for the for the town of chadam so what we did Christina did mostly is we looked at the towns in chadam uh in in Cape Cod and as well as in Massachusetts and to see where they were uh as we know a 50-year threshold is the threshold that mass historic Commission uses as a trigger for review of a home of whether or not it's historically significant or it's historic and this practice is is followed you know by most of the towns as a minimum uh there are towns that have the 75e threshold like chadam and uh Dennis and Toro and there a there are other communities that have even more of of that threshold okay but if you look at where we are 75 years seems to be the the the threshold that everybody's using you know for for the uh review of I'm sorry were you going to say something Eric no okay so 75 years seems to be the threshold that the majority of towns if not all of the towns are using did we find any with 100 no so we found none with 100 and we really found none with less so um that's where we are now the question is or the issue that Steve has brought up more than once is the issue of well we really shouldn't be looking at 75 we should look at at older so uh I don't I don't see that as a case but Steve you you really the the prime over here so why don't you go ahead and give us your uh your discussion um I'm I'm swayed by the uh the uh what some other towns are doing I don't think we ought to be uh necessarily we don't have a um a real issue at this point over the 75 years and so I would think that at least until we speak to Eric Moore and get better um better help from him regarding uh places like riverbay which I think really stand out to all of us as being very close to 75 years of age and is it really something we really want to dig into but I I'm convinced that we should probably wait on that particularly waiting on Eric to give us some some help regarding um like Hardings Beach Shores and in in riverbay um so if it was up to me I would I would put this on hold for a time until it became a problem or became closer to being a problem or until we get some guidance some Eric in terms of I guess we're getting into a discussion of or at some point a definition of historic the fact that they're part of the fiber of chatam is one thing whether they're historic I think is something else um I I think if we're going to review the um every single house in River Bay um I think we're going to be get mired down and we're going to have instead of focusing on truly historic buildings I think just think we ought to keep that in mind um but in the meantime I would recommend that um we postpone the discussion um for the time being all right well thank you but you know just to put it in a different perspective a little bit um Steve I don't completely disagree with you especially as it relates to River Bay but I have to in my mind I have to put riverbay in the same category as uh The Cottages White Pond and woset Village you know it's it's it's an area it's an area with architectural and historical you know significance now yeah I'm not talking today I'm talking 75 years from now okay and and as Eric said in the beginning with his his uh introduction to for be's you know the purpose of historic preservation one of the first step is identify and document agre and that's that's what we're talking about so and I don't I don't disagree with you we're not going to we're not going to do a Form B in every house in riverbay but you could start by doing a form a you could look at it as as an area form and say what's there and what is e easy worthwhile you know uh I would like to see that yeah I agree and I and I just hope he doesn't use the terminology I've heard about riverbay as God's waiting room but uh I know that that was a joke members of the public all right so having said that I think we're in we're in we're in agreement on how we proceed but the one thing I would just a little bit further uh in some of the documentation that Christina provided to me was looking at the um the town of Salam Sal Salem rather Salem Massachusetts which has an ordinance and their demolition delay bylaw which is quite interesting the way we work is we an application it's more than 75 years they come to to Christina they got an application it's more than 75 years you have to come before the historical commission if Christina makes a determination hey Frank this is a minor modification maintenance related and all that we have introduced the cold concept of an administrative review works very well and I think we Senor agrees the public is happy they don't have to come before a big hearing we take care of it I have been biting it the bit well how do we determine something is historically significant currently it's the bylaw that says we have to do it okay I don't want to change the bylaw yet but how do we approach and I was looking at at Salem and I think you've got copies of it within 21 days re receiver request the chish shall make a determination of the historical or architectural significant of the of the property if the structure is deemed significant the application shall be forwarded to the full commission so they have a two-step process and quite honestly you know the difference here is who's who's the the bylaw ordinance doesn't say who does it but somebody is doing that to inter intervene in the process to make a determination I've had this discussions with other towns and commissions and Eric I think help me here I believe you do that for some communities where you help make the determination of historical significance before it comes to the full commission not for demo delay now I only do that as part of uh Consulting with cpcs okay about yeah well I don't want to solve this problem now but it's something you know it's on the radar and we have we have to think about it all right we're we're not going to break any records here in terms of a short meeting all right I I think we've we've we've done that let me get back to my agenda uh the last one is admin uh amendments to the demotion delay bylaw and review we all met the new planner Christine Christino Grady is on board and we hope that we will be able to work with her to uh pick up with some of the work that was done prior by ran Christen Mary say again prior to R Ryan christenberry Ryan Christenbury so hopefully we'll we'll we'll we'll get some action on that which seems to be one of the priorities that we wanted to do something about okay uh last but not least uh you have an an a piece of Correspondence in your on your your your table here and it's a piece of correspondence from Carolyn Whittle I think I'm saying that way Carolyn asked if she could say a couple of words before the commission and U welcome what C why don't you come up to the U to the microphone and formally introduce yourself uh how am I involved in this well I we are involved in it as the historical commission Carolyn called me a couple of weeks ago about a situation on her property adjacent to her property which is contiguous with the Christian uh the Nickerson Family Cemetery and so we got into a discussion about some potential development that's occurring on a property adjacent to her and she did some research and she asked me to help and provide some limited guidance of who we should talk to but Carolyn why don't you just give us a couple of minutes quickly of what it is and what your concerns are and how we could potentially help you yep so I'm Carolyn Whittle I own and live at 1013 Orleans Road my parents bought the property in 1971 so I have lived on and off at 1015 and 1013 Orleans Road for over 50 years so I'm a directed butter to the Nickerson Family Cemetery and clearly in what I think is already established is a pretty historic part of chattam Port um it started because I got a letter from Conservation Commission that um a point4 approximate acre lot and a 6 that is part of a field also that I have but um is up for development and those properties owned by the same family a a piece of property that I know is part of an archaeological dig done in the past so my concerns with the historical commission was how do we save this field um and on a piece of property that is now part of their ownership my parents owned part of that and on that is a cement pad from a monument so I started trying to track the history of this monument and what maybe historical significance that had and I've come up with a lot of loose ends and a lot of interesting information but nothing about what that Monument was I do believe that it is part of the original Cemetery um and there are old tracks that go up the hill that we used to use as part of our driveway and so I'm concerned that we're putting houses on white what might be um some Native American burial sites or part of the Nickerson family um burial sites there so that's how I got involved in that and so it's really interesting to hear your conversations about what do we call historical and um the update of the form ease for the cemeteries was very informative to me so that's why I'm here I'm just wondering what we can do to um focus not just on houses but on areas that we could better exhibit how important chatam is um and I believe that that field is part of that so that's why I'm here I don't know if I have a suggestion or a direct request um well let me let me kind of you know when you called me I said to myself well we just invested about3 $40,000 of town money over the last few years is updating our archaeological survey of the town and then secondly hiring Holly harpster pal archaeologist and also Dan zodo an archaeologist to update the form Ease on the cemeteries and when she called me I said son of a gun I guess it was good that we did that in the sense that you know I was able to to provide her information about what we've done you know we're not making any judgment we're just providing information but there was professional archaeological research done of the whole town including those cemeteries and uh what what Authority we have this is private property okay we don't have any Authority on it uh you know but the purpose of this and again the archaeological surveys we did do is to provide information and notice to the public and specifically the owner and let me say it this way you know going to to the end it's going before the Conservation Commission planning Z know they have they're the ones with authority we don't have authority what we do what we can do is provide information to say hey guess what you know there was an archaeological dig in 1980 Something by Fred Dunford on that property so there has been actually physical not just people walking around finding any heads but somebody actually digging on the property so it's just information then that information is available to the owners to the to the abutters and more importantly to the owner in the sense that they can ignore all of this you know the owner has has property rights but once they start digging okay and if they find something they can be in an in a very difficult situation especially if they find a grave site where somebody can say you have to stop and the worst thing contractors want to do is stop okay okay but if you do a little due diligence ahead of time and if we have some firm information of what could be there that's a lot easier and that that's hly that's what the historical commission can do so I think what we have done through Me Myself and and and I so to speak is we have provided you you know links to the archaeological survey contacts to the archaeologist who did the work and then help you as best we can to provide that information and and that's what we're about you know we we have a limited Authority Rel to demolition delay but we also have an obligation in my mind you know to provide information to the public and to the town bodies you know to say hey guys there could be Indian Graves there let's take a look let's not just do it willy-nilly so anyway that was an inarticulate expection go Frank I have a question I can't remember who it was but somebody came from the state to describe the the situation as as to that archaeological survey and the results and only the redacted portion had been published which was frankly useless to determine where anything was that's correct and then at least I have and you have I believe had access to the unredacted Virgin but was pretty close to useless toin whatever it was and when the person came in here they said well if you ask specifically at the state level will tell you what area we're talking about right exactly so that's the next yeah step and whether a a butter can do that or whether we have to do it as in an official capacity I don't know in my mind and if Eric so could probably help us in in my mind a professional archaeologist can do it okay uh we as a commission probably could also you know ask that question if somebody asked specifically about a location yes I'm sorry Nancy no no I was just going to say um it seems like as an official board um that does have part as part of its remit to advocate for historical preservation and archaeology being part of the historical resources of the town that it's it's probably a little bit more onus on us not to just give somebody inquiring you know links information but if we feel if we have some indication that there's an area that may be sensitive that is about to be developed that we I think maybe we should be more proactive about providing the town boards that do have discretion or you know regulatory authority over it with the information which is what you're saying like our job is to document at this point and that we provide the documentation so that maybe for us to then say that yes this information is not available there's a good reason for that but we are you know like maybe we're going to provide a letter we're going to do an assessment or a documentation and provide that more formally than I was just going to say I think my inclination is that we do we do something a little bit more organized um Christina's kind of shaking her head would generally what happens is when there is a formal application resoning they'll ask for comments okay and it's at that time that I as the commission will say well this is what we know right okay and for instance you know we got a copy of the mass historic done for dig you know so there is formal documentation and stff but again it's up to the other boards and commissions to make a determination on how they want to how to affect their decision yeah is that something we do together or that's more of an inform okay okay okay any right because I suspect my property is one of those redacted areas paragraphs say that again ma'am I I believe that even my property is part of that redacted area yes that's EX in so I I I agree I'd like to see maybe some formal vehicle that notifies um property owners and other my situation is definitely zoning and conservation layered on top of the historical piece of it so it would be nice if that communication was shared um so that people are on alert that Well what we'll do just as I was when Christina gets I'll ask Christina to notify the other boards and her office is you know kind of the nucleus or the Apex or where it comes through that we do have some issues and concerns and when it is the appropriate time the historical commission would like to provide that information formally you know we we have to be careful here every now and then I've been come to some of these boards and told we didn't ask you to come here so it's it's it's a it's a process trust me it's a process yes ma'am do we depend on uh the people say this one forward um when they're digging do we depend on them to be honest about this and let us know they've you know what I'm saying you know we we did if you look at the archaeological survey that we completed the redacted and the unredacted there were a list of recommendations and one of the recommendations is that we should generate a a bylaw which man Ates it yes I don't see any hands being raised who want to take that task on you know yeah I agree but we could do something maybe shy of a bylaw whether it was adding a whatever there could be some process that we recommended happen even if it wasn't a mandated process well okay we'll put it on the agenda or something we should think about the process for notifying the okay I'm I'm I'm happy you guys are looking for things to do okay okay well everyone here has great respect for the past but I don't think that every visitor and resident of chadam knows or understands the wealth of information and history that's in shatam and that they may indeed be living on historical information or stories that we should share like they just don't know well you know when we did the surveys we we had it was in the public it was advertised we had meetings you know we they made presentations and you know we got probably 1 half of one quarter of 1% of the people showed up and it's it's it's there but you know it's not necessarily people's priority especially when it's 75 degrees on a Sunday day in July you know so it's it's a PR it's a problem well in our my case I can say that we were always under the impression that that family was going to donate that that property to conservation so we didn't think I never thought I had to worry about the disruption or disturbance of Indian burial ground or artifacts or any damage done to anything there either well well I appreciate you coming forward I appreciate you contacting me anything we can we will do and I think what what I'm asking what I'm hearing from the board is formalize that process a little bit more and I guarantee you and and I've been you know I have been in contact with carollyn you know and I you got to let me know when it is you know when it's happening but it shouldn't fall all on me you know the commission chair I'd be happy and it should fall more on the on the process of review of land ruse review well that's a tough one I mean right now the select board has got their stuff the self busy with other things but the other thing just to keep in mind for this particular one is going forward with you know the national register with the nerson family and because that's an archaeological thing this is very connected to that so I I think it sort of in the prview of our what we're talking about and and I'd be very happy to help Frank yeah well that's great do you know have any archaeologists in the family a brother you know anyway well and if I can help in any way if you want me to sit in on another meeting if you want to ask questions from my point of view I'm glad to help because I think it's the right thing to do and I I want to thank all of you because without your thoughtful decision making you know Chatham's Beauty and the preservation of the the history would um start to be eroded so I really appreciate that everyone enjoys those benefits well thank you very much car I have one last comment a question you're a resident of chadam yes I live here year round we have I graduated from chadam high school when there was a chadam high school okay well good because there's one position open for an Al I'll let you twist my arm in private okay well you know think about it okay thank you very much thank you all ladies and gentlemen I think we killed it oh yes I'm sorry one question um you the redaction the unred action Bob commented that the redacted copy is worthless um which it really is why why you bother to read it um who makes the determination as who can see the unredacted copy the unredacted the the I get always get redacted unredacted uh the unredacted report is on file with the town okay and it can be accessed by professional archaeologists only well I don't say only it has to be it could it can't be you know Charlie looking to look for RI uh looking for arrowheads you know it has to be a legitimate concern and that concern it actually historic commission the uh I can't thinket the name of the the office uh it's the office of a yeah Ma uh Massachusetts archaeological Society there words it's an actual part of mass historic you know commission who makes that determination so effectively what would happen uh is probably the administrative office would contact Mass historic and there would be what is this person doing why are they doing you have to make a case on why you need it yeah her because you're interested so it's not available to members of the commission no or any member of the commission you have you have not seen the under I haven't seen it no I haven't seen it well let me I've seen it generalized what let me clarify I I asked to see it and as as the vice chair of the commission and Miss Donovan was had to do a lot of checking but I was allowed to see it yeah along with one of our interns in the foundation who was specializing in Native American Affairs so you need to come up as as Frank said you need to have a a good reason for it so they made a case I you're sworn to secrecy I I understand that um as would the members of the commission be sworn to secrecy but I think that having more people in Authority or appropriate people have some awareness of it I mean if I I understand we don't want to tell the only Arrowhead only thing you don't want to the only thing the difference between the redacted and the unredacted and the information which is mass historic which is even more specific okay is the actual location everybody knows chadam was settled 15,000 years ago everybody knows that there are Indian burial grounds all over this town and they lived here for thousands of years yeah and it's here yes now how do you respect that you know and and the issue I guess that um uh Nancy's brought up is maybe we need to formalize it when people start digging and let me give you for instance when there is state or federal money involved because we've done this archaeological survey every time the town of chadam wants to put a a shovel to the ground and this state of federal money guess what they have to use the report they have to hire an a ologist to validate yes from what we know that could be a sensitive area in other words there are areas which are considered sensitive you know extremely sensitive or less sensitive and they're notified so for instance when all the all of the efforts are being done to dig the streets up for the sewer I get notified that they're going to dig on that street and the and I get a report from the archaeologist I said it's okay it's all you know they can dig there but if they are in an area where they're going to dig where it's extremely sensitive the archaeologist has to be not me the archaeologist has to come down and make sure they're digging in the proper place and the issue is you can dig they can't say you can't dig but if you find something then the process gets you have to maintain it if it's a grave an Indian gravite the wampo tribe is called in there's a big ceremony their position is put it back in the ground and you know put the highway right over it Frank can I ask so anyway that's a process can I just ask I I think um my question is is when somebody brings something to our attention like I think this is a sensitive area who do we contact to find out like we've you know can somebody tell us from this hidden information is this an area that is sensitive you know what I mean how do we how do we access that well in and what I did okay when I found out about it I called our archaeologists and I said hey could you take a look at that now she's not on paying no I know so there's no formal mechanism for like it's just like you have a private it's private I would imagine you probably can call Mass historic and say we're the historical commission somebody's brought this up we have a okay so so there is a way there is some way for us to access or at least for someone to say yes or no this is an area that you should be concerned about that's I guess what I'm trying to figure out we don't do that we encourage the owner to do that yes I'm sorry Carol no so your question Carolyn I'm sorry you have to go to the microphone we're on TV kid I thought this was going to be short meeting to your question so a lot of my research just says Acres I don't know where the acre begins and ends so Sarah Nickerson coell gave two acres to the town for a cemetery down to 40x 50 ft but where were those two acres were they down the hill were they're going to build and then uh reading up on the archaeological dig that was done next to these two small Lots it refers to acres so I don't know where the Acres begin and end and the likelihood of hitting something is pretty strong based on what I'm reading okay so somebody may know but we but so someone may know but because a lot of it's redacted and I'm not a professional I I don't even want to take a stab at assessing that okay and the nickerson's yeah you know you would the Nickerson wouldn't oh I'm sorry sorry go good I'm sorry would the Nickerson have um wouldn't they the Nickerson have a survey of that well she's in contact with them yeah yeah so right now we are at a standstill of trying to figure out where those original 2 Acres of burial ground because there's you know rumors and folklore that William and an are there and some friends and relatives but where yeah yeah yes I'm sorry Steve go ahead yeah I think it as Nancy indicated that it really opens up a I think a really worthwhile Bara of discussion if we we currently if if a house is 75 years and one day old we we're all over it um the fact that it may be sitting on a very sensitive area we don't discuss it at all that's correct we don't it it it just begs the question of what is our role what do we protecting what are we not protecting can I ask you do me a favor can you get a copy of the archaeological survey and the update and read the conclusion and recommendations because there are specific recommendations in that report of what some towns do they have an archaeological commission have an historical commission and an archaological commission and I think watch this now with your education and your interest I think you know if if the town of chadam feels strongly that we would like to have it more formalized I I got a feeling you get a couple people could be right behind you you know and when I when I read those recommendations in in the survey I said okay you know I brought it to the town and they said okay you know it's just a matter of starting the the ball roning to generate hey we need to not formalize this process right now it is not formalized it's very informal relies upon the homeowner you know to to or the owner of the property not homeowner to to be interested for instance this study which I don't know if we gave a cop everybody of this report which was done in the 80s by by Fred Dunford where they did an archaeological dig it was the owner of the property who requested it he went to he went to mass historic and said I think I think my property is sensitive I'd like to know what's here and then whoops volunteers came and Arch archaeologist was hard and they did a dig but again it that's the process unfortunately that's what it is well I think we're beginning to get into a little bit I think we add it to an agenda as like things like you you know we've got kind of these these things that we put on about you know potential issues on hold or new business and I I I haven't brought it up because I didn't know what you had discussed when the actual report was done because I started just at the time that um the public was kind of given the update so is that something where we could say like we'd like at a future meeting to discuss those recommendations and see if we want to do anything with them I will add it to the gender and we know we have issues on hold absolutely yeah kind of thing and hey that's how we got into this thing we've been thinking about this for three years and finally I said we got to talk about this it's like we're talking about riverbay say again we're talking about riverbay and if I were a Native American um looking for a place to hang out or develop or live or hunt or fish I I think I might look at that and I would think that maybe um maybe they in fact did and acted on apparent the thoughts and that may be a very sensitive area and here we are saying let's spend a bunch of money on assessing these houses in riverbay I think it's just as important that we assess was that a a substantial Native American village which I think is even more important than whether this house is a royal Barry wheels or whether it's a something from the se's robot catalog you know it also was very quiet I think it was the last time an Indian grave was was about a year and a half ago but it's very quiet you don't hear about it you know somebody was diing a foundation the contractor found something he stopped he called the police the police came in Mass stor came in they determined it was an Indian ground they wo was here they put it back in the ground and they moved on because I think it's important to know if you know if it's happens to be that some some individual Native American died somewhere and that's where they where he died and they've covered him up or whether it's a part of a actual Cemetery or burying ground of Native Americans which I think is a different kettle of fish but I think knowing some of that is something that we because we don't have a historical commission I think it kind of falls on us and I think we got to pick up that wall and carry it where we can carry it Frank I hope the new chairman really would like to dig into this yes I'm sorry better chairman Frank um so you remember when you had the cemetery person come and talk to us yes would it be helpful to have uh remember the lecture that Holly herbs gave at the library a little while ago Dan did one too yeah but remember Hol was on the um on the archaological yes would it be helpful for us to have that lecture here or not we could do that we could do that I don't know I was at the library one but didn't she I I was under the impression that she had delivered something to you as a board yes beforehand so I yeah so I think it was similar maybe you know this this meeting is killing me here and I I was at the library so I think there is a report that's being generated and it's being printed we have it copy we don't have it yet so maybe when that comes out that's a little Peg for us to do it on our definitely that' be great and Holly is very good I'm sure if I call her she either come down or she'll do it again one more time yeah know it it would be fun it's probably taped and we could probably just get a copy of the tape well no what I'm saying what I think I'm hearing here we did an updated the survey and there was new information that Holly had with it and my started this whole meeting telling you about she's updating the uh information for the Nickerson dig that's an integral part of this update okay she's doing that so when she's finished in September October she's going to give us that report I'll ask her to come and I'm sure she'll be happy to do it and then at that time we can Grill her about about what other towns are doing no I I mean kid around but it's a it's a big deal you know it's a lot of work and U great I'm glad we we got interest in it but remember this still is an open seat thank okay ladies and and gentlemen unfortunately I told the the staff we would be quick but it turned out not better all right I'm we going to ask for an a motion possibly to adjourn I move to adjourn second all right a roll call Bob yes Steve yes Sandy yes Janet yes Nancy yes and the chair votes thank you very much and thank you very much those of you who are listening in [Music] [Music]