e e e e e [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] I good morning hi this is Frank mesina and this is the April 16 2024 meeting of the chatam historical commission uh just some messages to read before we start this meeting is being recorded will be available shortly Hereafter for scheduled and On Demand viewing on any smartphone or tablet device if anyone else is recording the meeting please notify the chairman seeing none pursuant to Governor Healey's March 29 2023 signing of the acts of 2023 extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law General law 3820 until March 31st 2025 this meeting of the chatam historical commission is being conducted in person and via remote participation every effort will be made to ensure the public can adequately address the proceedings as provided for in the order a reminder that persons who would like to listen to the meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 1508 945 4410 conference ID 43961 355 hashtag or join the meeting online via Microsoft teams through the link posted on the agenda while this is a live broadcast and simcast on chadam chadam TV despite our best efforts we may not be able to provide for Real Time access we'll post the record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as possible okay uh I hear that the legislature is considering extending the you know not just for Co but just making it that meetings can can be conducted in live and as well as uh online so it's kind of interesting okay First Act is a roll call see who's here Mr leer pres bring game here Mr Aman is absent Stephanie Hamilton here Sandy Porter Sand's absent Janet Tennyson here Robert stevensson here Nancy bar is absent and the chair is here we have a quorum so Bob you will act as a voting member okay okay uh uh as uh Don and Sandy regular members are absent the way the law works the alternate can participate and vote when a regular member is not present all right it's good to be back First Act we have is the minutes you have the minutes of uh April 2nd 2024 another record long meeting any I have a question ma' Stephen were you in charge of that meeting I was going to say that this yeah this is not listed as present I'm not listed as absent uh oh yeah Mr I have it was Bob leer was remote and Steven Berling game was not here yeah Bob was remote Nancy was remote and Mr Burling game was uh AB chair you got that any I haven't you last Mee incorrect I I was absent at the last meeting okay so I just need toiz oh I'm sorry okay so it's a correct as is except that he was okay great I was confusing all right we got it any other comments or questions motion to move to accept the meeting the meetings of uh April 9th I'll second okay second please C great okay all right we'll do a quick roll call uh Bob yes Steve I was not here and not here uh Stephanie yes uh Janet yes Robert yes and the chair vote Yes okay all right that was short sweet okay we don't have a a long agenda not too many business items to discuss but we have two applications and effectively three hearings uh why don't we get right to it the first one is uh application 2410 uh 255 Old hobber Road u a friend of ours 255 been here a number of times and uh looks like they're finally uh getting to a point of completing it is is that is that what happening Mr litfield good morning Bill Lichfield here on behalf of the Cook family which owns the property with which you are familiar and as part of their ongoing restoration of the what is called the Elisha bur house they would like to make some further progress in that regard I don't know that historic preservation is ever completed by its nature I think it I think it continues indefinitely but those of you who were stay fast enough to attend the site visit on Friday morning which was a little damp um got a sense of what's involved uh the property's been in front of you in the past you several years ago approved some replacement windows the Cook family would now like to connect the south and east side uh porches uh in beyond that install period Rail and B B ballister system on the side port PCH with 4x4 posts install Square posts uh from the deck to the underside of the PCH ceiling and so forth uh put on new decking install 16 new uh Windows which will match those approved by you in 2020 and very positively remove the remaining aluminum siding from the east and south sides of the house replaced with cedar clabbers and all also remove the vinyl sighting so I think you've already found the structure to be historic we expect you might ratify that decision but in light of what is proposed we would ask that you not impose a demolition delay okay why don't we just quickly address the issue and reaffirm reaffirm the historical significance Bob I moved at the chat historical commission reaffirms its prior determinations that the house is historically significant second second okay no other discussion on historical significance we'll do a quick roll call Bob yes Steve yes Stephanie yes Janet yes Robert yes and the chair vote Yes okay uh I'll just open up to the members does anybody have any other comments or questions or I just just have a brief question I guess it's regarding the plans um the first is that you need a large microscope to read read the date down at the bottom but I do believe it's February 22nd 2022 which leads me to think that this is basically the same thing that we approved before with that little piece drawn in at the corner of the porch well I don't know what you were what you approved before but I assume that yes the I know the corner porch is additional okay um with that I have no other questions no question questions yeah I again just I'm sorry Steve you had something nope you saw your light on that's why I asked okay uh yeah again uh I was looking at you know the the barn is still there and we approve I forget what we approv when we approved the bond was the demolition or what I forget I'm not I'm getting gu well today's application is as indicated for the things that I outlined uh uh well so far as I know we're not talking about the barn no we're not I just want any the barn the demolition of the barn was approved in 2005 2005 it did it did occur okay so all right uh I was I visited the property yesterday and I was walking around and I was just trying to recall you know what we had in the in the thing so hopefully is this going to wrap it up you think in terms of what they're planning to do and well as I indicated there's there's an ongoing restoration of the property mhm uh there may be some further changes alterations and if they are and they involve demolition we'll come back to you all right again it does it does it was always weird to me that way that the porch you know separated like that but I think it's I think it's very good and I I wholeheartedly approve and um hopefully we'll get this work done thank you very much okay Bob I think we have consensus uh chadam historical commissioner also finds that the proposed work to be done dated February 22nd 2022 will not Material will not materially diminish the historic significance of the structure therefore the commission does not impose a demolition delay any second okay any uh comments any member of the public wish to speak for or against the application seeing none okay we'll I guess we can proceed with a roll call Frank yes gentleman over here oh I'm sorry yes apologize could you could you come up to the uh Podium please introduce yourself Brad Cody 247 old Harbor Road uh owner of the house directly behind this um the original uh notice for today IND ated some partial or demolition of a barn um I've heard no discussion of that so I'd like to further better understand that um demolition of the what sir demolition of the barn there there was a the notice that I received in the mail um had indicated a potential or partial demolition of the barn um my understanding this conversation of the deck uh expansion was slated for the zba for next week week um so I I would like to just better understand um what if anything is happening to the barn can you clarify that at all Annie and or bill with the notice it's nothing in the application that I filed in regard to the barn well you you're referring to the notice sir yeah the notice I was sent to all the abots the a notification says that it is for partial um demolishment which is any any uh work that involves any demolishment of historic materials is considered a partial demolishment the barn had previously been heard in 2005 by this commission and they had approved the demolition at that time it's not part of the current application okay so I guess following up with your question when exactly is that going to take place if that was approved for in 2005 your your the question I may rephrase it your question is when is the demolition of the bond going to happen happen yeah if if you guys approved it 2005 it's 2024 and now they're on front of looking to do something like this yeah the B how long is this going to take place to my and Mr L I'm sure will correct me I'm sure the the permission to demol Dem demolish the bond has expired you know there's only so many years two years I guess before after we determined so the barn is not part of this application the barn is there they're not asking permission in this application to demolish the bond so the bond is there and if the applicant wants to you know your neighbor wants a demolish the bond they have to come back before us and ask permission okay okay you concur Mr L yeah yeah oh come on thank you all right all right thank you thank you very much all right I think we're at the point of a roll call then if there's no other further comments uh Bob yes Steve yes Seth yes Janet yes Robert yes and the chair vote yes thank you very much Mr thank you very much appreciate it okay yeah I was confused with the barn too I saw that on the I saw that on the on the on the drawings and I also when I visited I said Gee I thought we had voted to demolish it but then again just for your information as we indicated uh after an application is approved by the historical commission I think it's two years and if they don't act in two years they have to come back to us okay thank you for Theif thank you very much appreciate it it's nice to see members of the audience okay the next application we have is U 24 U 011 is Annie is that wrong it's it says 2401 and 23011 so that's our our agenda the application is it should be it should be 24011 yeah okay so it's 2401 it's a little typo there okay and this is 89 Water Street U to be heard in accordance with chapter 158 as well as the um potential Cape cart Commission regional policy review uh as this is part of the national registered District euph famously called The Old Village uh okay hold on here one second this is a beautiful home 1818 I believe it goes back to 1818 yeah and uh I know it's been before us in the past and so why don't you proceed introduce yourself and then let us know what's happening Paul malun here from SV design representing the Seymour family and and their property at 89 Water Street uh you're correct we have been before you in the past uh at least once under my guidance back in uh 2020 uh where the the Western l or the kitchen L uh was was renovated uh the barzilla Hardy house built in 1818 um it's a 4 Bay 3/4 cape in the main block and and included a rear L originally uh off the back the two Westerly facing wings are more modernly built um one again renovated substantially in in 2020 and the other was built in I think the 80s uh around uh 20 uh the early 2000s the house was raised up and a full concrete foundation with brick veneer was placed as well uh the material of the existing home uh it sits on very proudly on this generally raised portion of land it has a brick retaining wall in front and some some just quintessential Cape Cod picket fence in front uh the house itself sits on that brick veneer Foundation uh sidewall cedar shingles as you'd expect uh Cedar roof as you might expect in this in this general area uh White painted trim white painted uh window casings and generally a 9 over six window uh patterning um our our addition is to expand uh the roof height of the rear L renovate some windows uh through that back section and then place an addition off the easterly side uh the second floor of the existing has a ceiling height of 6'2 and uh with a growing family it it becomes problematic to use the space uh likewise the stairs going up to that section are a a rise of 10 in and a tread of six so they're they're straight up um our our addition is to help uh mitigate that uh challenge of getting up to the second floor so we're bumping out about eight feet on this western side and uh that'll house our new stair as well as start to create the architecture and and um and composition uh to to mimic the the existing structure um can we go to sheet uh h1.3 please thank you so here on the on the top part of the sheet we're looking at the East Elevation and uh again that that very stately front block uh with the Gable end two windows up with smaller Windows flanking and two windows low and then the backs side engaging a shed Dormer well we looked at this and said it's it's beautiful it's historic it's it's really what the house is all about so mimicking that in our new addition that 8ft bump out by 22t 7 A2 is taking those proportions and and that sort of uh architectural detailing aligning the eaves using a similar window pattern and adorning it with shed Dormers to connect the spaces from from front to back uh the the center section here the the middle L you can see we've raised that roof up so we've got uh we'll call it a normal head height window and and a code compliant ceiling height in that space uh the ridge height in that section goes up about 2 fo8 um if we can go to 1.2 please on the back side as you can see in the on the top existing we have the main block that has that shed Dormer off the back uh our new proposed down down bottom again is is mimicking that that architecture and pulling that that structure of of the main Gable and the shed backward now we're sitting over uh the existing L that was built in in the in the uh 70s or 80s um so we're we're taking some of that roof line away uh the rest of the architecture on that rear L uh stays where it is the the bay window stays the roof line as is is uh to remain and one more up please and from the sort of The Insider view this is where the the um the shape of the structure creates that outdoor living room between the kitchen and between this this first floor bedroom on the on the left hand side we have that vertical wall of the existing L and that shed dormant that stretches backward we can see the the translation of our new Gable end stretching through into that section and then the the uh mimicked shed Dormer and and new windowing happens just below that that Center section uh the Gable ends on those projections of the Wings remain uh we're adjusting some windows and are proposed on the left hand side the right hand side which was uh recently renovated stays where it is uh materials themselves are meant to match exactly you know uh they will be new windows but with white painted trim white painted uh trim details around the roof lines U wood roof shingles Uh Wood Wood sidewall shingles as well uh any new foundations will have a brick veneer uh to uh make sure that it is harmonious with the original intent we did discuss some Alternatives uh we looked at expanding the center section to connect the the rear wing to the front Wing more substantially uh the intent is really to mimic the existing architecture as much as we can and minimize the new footprint the new footprint being going easterly on the back side of the house away from the public view felt like it was the right solution here and minimizing the the um the change in in the first floor frame with that I'm happy to answer any question questions how how much uh how big a footprint are you 180 181 Square ft of new footprint do you have to go to zoning nope we are zoning compliant so that's about 8 foot deep and about that 22 and change wide I guess I maybe I I missed it do you you show a FL a flight a site plan there is a site plan in the package okay if you need an extra I have them is it a small 8 and half by 11 8 and half by 11 I just wanted to see one one question it's up on the screen it's in the back yeah probably the last one last page it's always the last page or next the last I guess I don't have it that's why thanks my my package seemed to be missing it or I just can't apologies yeah I got it okay uh all right before other members I have it yeah thank you any well first first issue we can just probably dispense of very quickly and that's the issue it's right in front of me of uh historically significant and there there's no question about it I don't think and I just we need just to affirm it um I know it's the first time the house was surveyed in 1976 so uh certainly he had a lot of history you know on I looking at the 1976 uh Form B somebody talk about a bode roof there's no bod roof any there's no bod roof okay tolds you about history okay uh Robert can you deal with the historical element yep I move the chadam historical commission finds that the building located at 89 Water Street is historically significant and reaffirms that finding and in addition it is listed in the National Reg register historic district as a contributing structure I'll second great any other discussion okay just just a comment um all of the previous work has been done very very nicely uh and I fully expect the addition to be be the same but I want to congratulate you and the Hors that the um the consideration of the of the existing old house being replicated in your addition and considered so much um is impressive to me um so many additions to old houses are just modern modern additions uh this of course being modern but how the way that it replicates the existing um I think is excellent I appreciate your work on it okay let's let's address the issue of historical significance yes uh no I thought we passed historic no we didn't we didn't vote on it yet any comments on historical no none we'll take a roll call uh Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Janet yes Robert yes chair votes yes okay now the issue any questions relative to the application I apologize I don't have a question I just wanted to say thank you having the existing as the same page as the proposal is so helpful yeah s SV usually gets a at least a B+ on their applications they learned the way to do it yes no I think it's great because the street scape really will not change uh what you're doing and um I'm sure the the amans across the street will appreciate that but um no I think it's a very nice plan thank you and Mr Burling game to to expound in your comments um the the same contractor that did the first one um Chris bck will do the second project and he is on top of game with regards to Historic uh sensitivity and and significance uh the house itself has been lovingly taken care of uh with the the Seymour ownership um they love the property they love the house this is really the second generation or maybe third generation now coming into the home and just wanting to maintain it and and get it up to a standard where where it can be used as much as possible that's great anybody else Bob oh Bobs Robert any other comments yeah I go ahead yeah I just want to thank you what a wonderful job that you've that you've done I hope you counsel other people that come before us um I do have a question this is not a negative yes I think you may have answered it on the site visit but I'm still a little confused on it on the west uh elevation uh you move the door yes and I'm just curious why you'd want the two doors next to each other I'm assuming that the steps coming down from from the Upper Floor would be to the to the left side for me we've pushed the stairs to to the Eastern side as much as possible so it's really more sitting in the the new addition than than the main part of the house though it is a straight run uh the current door location sits right behind the existing stair and it's awfully awkward it creates this small this small Nook uh relocating the door to its proposed location really helps the floor plan flow far much better uh it that Center space is a walkthrough it's not incredibly wide so it's really how do we get from the front half of the house to the back half of the house and still have some sort of furniture Arrangement that works well from the interior yeah and is it a a slider yes it is a slider similar to the ones that are in the kitchen uh section Bob any questions no I have a you know just just to address something Steve you said and that was my concern with this application I I think it did a good job when when historic properties exist okay and the way historic older homes grew they grew to they grew by need which means there wasn't a big addition they just needed a bedroom and put it in a bedroom and that's one of the charms of the Old Village is the fact that the homes are in by nature of the scale small and they were allowed to grow just by need uh uh and I understand you know the need but I'll be honest with you when I looked at the east of elevation and I saw the you know what you've done and and and you comment mimicking it's the worst thing you can do in historic preservation is mimic okay what you want to do is you want to separate the historical elements from the modern elements and and I I know the need I know we're talking to the neighbors and yeah all right it's good and you know I but I'll be honest with you I got I have problems with that because now the historic house is gone okay now we have a new home it's much larger it's it's wonderful you know and I I can agree but from a from a preservation point of view we've lost the old home but do we want somebody living in it or do we want to just look at it that you can live in it but not liveing it with this much space okay may and that's that's the issue especially when we're dealing with you know a very historic home I'm I'm going to support it but you know you was an architect I know where you're coming from and I know where the applicant's coming from but I'm coming from a different point you know in terms of in terms of the loss of a certain amount of historic charm when we deal with homes which are very old and and and they're allowed to to expand and so anyway it's an interesting perspective and I and I appreciate it's an interesting perspective and and I appreciate the commentary you know from the architectural standpoint um having a harmonious addition having something that I know they teach I know they teach you that in architect school when you're doing historic preservation if it's truly a national register how property okay you have to separate the addition when you look at a a truly historic home okay you want to know what the historic home was what the original home is and the addition now addition doesn't have to be super modern okay but there's a distinction this this commission spends a great deal of time with certain applications insisting that they separate the the new from the old and we've lost it here it's gone so you know that's it from my perspective any member of the public wish to speak for or against the application nope yes excellent excellent hi I'm Bill har I live in in the Old Village in a contributing structure and um and um I uh wanted to congratulate the applicant uh our friend uh uh baby um Seymour and uh the uh architect here Mr moldun for an absolutely super job I think this is one of the best uh applications I've ever seen uh and well well Illustrated you can tell what you changed and what uh what was left um uh the uh all the work uh the new work is in the in the back so it doesn't really affect the street scape at all you can barely see that see that area uh going down water street so that's uh that's fine and uh I've always felt that one of the important things that this committee this commission needs to look care about is the situations where there's an alteration in the setting which which affects the historic character which clearly this does not now I sort of believe with the chair here it's sort of nice to separate the old part and keep it exactly like it was and have something new and we actually in our we came before this committee um back in 2005 and um the historic portion of our house was a what the only thing which was on the property in 20 when we bought it in 1994 was a 420 square foot a half Cape house which would been it was historic because it was made out of a barn which was built in 1825 now and when I decided that um I wanted to retire to chatam 420 ft wasn't really enough to to um retire into uh so we needed more space so I wanted to build another separate standalone uh modest Cottage and of course that wasn't allowed because we only allowed one drilling on one property which is a big problem sometimes um uh oh but we got the idea that we could build basically a standalone one-bedroom uh uh Cottage we had connected it to the 420 squ foot old Cottage By A Breezeway so the old Cottage was absolutely unchanged except T touch touching a Breezeway uh and um we got a little bit more space and can can live there and a lot we like in the this commission uh I'm not sure there were any members from that era but uh here now but uh they you approved all that um because uh there are cases where you can't really add to something old and and keep the old part and but I think you did did very well with what what what you did um and uh this this barzilla Harding house is of course one of about 200 contributing structures in the Old Village I'm um member of the of the board of directors of the Old Village Association and we had a meeting um last week and and some of the other members had read this uh seen this application and and most everybody seemed to be very pleased with it so so uh I think it's a textbook example of an application maybe it could be given to Future uh applicants of people who have really historic houses and use that as a as a model so anyway I wanted to congratulate uh all right well thank you very much you okay at this point no other comments we do we have a number of motions which we need to execute Bob um let's finish up the chapter 158 because we did the historical significance um and under that part of it um historical commission also finds the proposed work to be done dated March 15 2024 will not materially diminish the historic significance of the building and therefore the commission does not impose a demolition delay second please second second thank you very much any other comments okay we're going to do a roll call Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Janet yes Robert yes and the shair vote Yes okay under the Cape Cod Commission act um I move this chatam historical commission confirms that the dwelling located at 89 Water Street is a contributing structure in the National Historic register District a second thank you very much uh any other comments all right roll call Bob yes Steve yes Steph Yes Janet yes Robert yes and the chair vot J one more move the chatam historical commission also finds the materials presented this date showed showed that the proposed alterations and additions and Renovations do not constitute a substantial alteration to the contributing structure located in an nrd and therefore referral to the cape cot commission for review is not necessary second second thank you very much Janet's on the ball today okay we're g take a quick roll call if there no other comments Bob yes Steve yes Stephanie yes Janet yes Robert yes chair vote yes thank you is this your property Miss okay I okay swe okay I just wanted thank you for your time really appreciate thank you very much cheers appreciate it okay uh we just quickly uh uh under uh there's no new business old business uh just a reminder when the preservation Awards uh activity if you could get your uh RSVP in for the invitation which you have we appreciate it uh I've already had a couple of people ask me for homes for next year but we probably you know we we've gotten in a road of skipping a year so I think you know um I know it's not you know we don't have five or 10 applications but uh we do appreciate the fact and I think the the applicants do appreciate the fact of the recognition so we we'll proceed on that May 18th event we we will just quickly the uh Nickerson Family Association and the uh potential eligibility for National register uh staff in fact is proceeding with the necessary contractual relationship for pal so we can proceed to uh to submit that request for an a determination of Eligibility uh of the Nickerson Family Association site uh there is uh the Coast Guard boat house uh is moving along they they just actually uh I think issued a contract for the uh uh work on the bulkhead now that the dredging is done which is all preparation for The Boat House coming back so it's a big deal actually the Selectmen tonight are going to be having some discussion on that because there's some concern relative to the cost of the project which is welcome to the club and you know you wait long enough price goes up so uh that still continues and and I hope that I know myself and other members of the commission will continue to support uh the bringing back of that that historic structure back to Stage Harbor um I don't think we have anything new on the current status of the demolition delays Annie nothing's changed signific we have no correspondence Steph relative of your comment you know if we just take a second because relatively short meeting uh monoy theater property it's the the trial I think is beginning soon good uh which will hopefully determine whether or not the applicant gets permission to build those uh the houses he wants and right now if he does get permission to build the houses he is committed to uh to continue the restoration and return to theater there's a lot of discussion about that those two properties that the other than the the you know the the theater and the Washington tailor home are both in the um historic business district so there's no way those properties are going to be demolished okay he's going to have to restore them and he's pretty he's fully committed to restoring them the question is what do he restore them as the current plan that that he spoke to was to restore the Washington tailor home to to a residence of some kind you know or if he if a theater situation exists he would be part of the the theater situation and then if he did was able to to get the homes approved then he would proceed with some kind of a plan to have some kind of a theater there if not then that the the old uh theater would turn into some kind of a commercial property which he literally you know that's that's what the zoning is that's what he could do so you know it's a difficult situation we're kind of both sides of the the street on that one uh you know we we talked about uh the 75e threshold uh review which uh Mr uh Burling game brought up we talked about the issue of uh you know if you look at I don't want to read them all off but given the issues on hold are there any that you as members would like to pursue I mean other than our perennial uh demolition by neglect you know which I keep getting assured by staff once they get a planner back on board they will continue to work on that so that to me personally is the next priority that I think we should work and I think it needs to be done uh but I'm just wanting you know it's not my choice it's our choice if there are other applications that we have discussed in the past and on hold that you would like to bring forward for for discussion other than the demolition Frank did you send us the article about um the town that was doing fining that was wonderful yeah yeah a lot of communities are very aggressive in in terms of dealing with it in the new yor and I I become you know you drive around town and you see houses you say oh you know you know there's a number of homes in chadam you know which are which which are going you know just by the fact that there's no maintenance and some of them are extremely historic and or at least they're worthy of a consideration so uh I guess not hearing I'm going to to move the uh demolition by neglect up if you will to then then I'll talk to Katie about it so when they can hire some staff then we'll we'll thank you we'll we'll bring begin to to look into that I mean the the way we left it with Ryan christenberry the former uh the former uh planner principal planner was that she felt the best way to approach this was for us to make a change to the chapter 158 to somehow incorporate some some motion as it relates to demolition by neglect so you know the jury still allow we still have a lot of work to do it's not going to happen you know it's like when we did the other bylaw you know about the historic preservation with the zoning you know it took about three years so nothing happens fast so but I think we want to just not forget get about it and that's why I keep issuing IT issues on hold there're good ideas that we've had but we just don't have the the Personnel of the staff to to look into it all right there's nothing else okay motion to adjourn I make a motion that we adjourn this meeting on April uh 16 2024 thank you second second all right no comment Bob yes Steve yes Steph yes Janet yes Robert yes chair vot yes thank you very much and thank you very much for coming good job and uh [Music] [Music] e