e e e e e e e e e e e e [Music] [Music] good evening everyone welcome to the a special joint meeting of the chadam select board and Council of Aging board of directors uh for March 18th 2024 please note this meeting is being recorded and will be available shortly Hereafter for scheduled an on demand viewing on a on a smartphone or tablet device if anyone else is recording the meeting please notify the chair seeing none pursuant to Governor hey's March 29 2023 signing of the acts of 2023 extending certain covid-19 measures adopted during the state of emergency suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law General Law chapter 38 subsection 20 until March 31st 2025 this meeting of the chatam select board um is being conducted in person and via remote participation every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceeding as provided for in the order a reminder that persons who would like to listen to the meeting while in progress may do so by calling the phone number 1508 945 4410 conference ID 203 386 491 pound or join the meeting online via Microsoft teams through the link in the posted agenda while this is a live broadcast and s cast on channel on chadam TV which is now exin channel 8 and 107 2 despite our best efforts we may not be able to provide realtime access we will post a record of this meeting on the town's website as soon as possible uh first action of the evening is to established Quorum on our side selectboard member necastro present selectboard member Davis present selectboard member dikin present selectboard member shell present and select board member matter is present I will now turn it over to Patty Burke do a roll call of the of their board turn your mic microphon on I'm sorry pres thank you Betty Joell present Laura Everett present n Fields present on teams uh Stan Mansfield present oh thank you Stan and uh the chair is present Pat Burke thank you Cory for inviting us wonderful everyone's here thank you for wonderful audience here tonight at least in house we have some some um participation here which is very nice uh basically just want to just make a quick comment um we kind of this um the the um feasibility study on 193 um was was came before our desk a couple weeks ago and we uh we made the very conscious decision that this should be brought before the public uh just have an open discussion uh before we close the warrant um you know we're not expecting to take any formal vote tonight uh we'll have a presentation in a moment um but I just I also want to note that um just for the mechanics of this so on tomorrow night's select board agenda we also have an item on our agenda for this particular topic um my hopes is at the end of tonight's discussion and presentation uh I'll have a better sense of where we might be going with this project and if it's feasible to keep that agenda on tomorrow night or it may be worthwhile depending on the outcome of tonight to get a sense of the board maybe that we that needs to be postponed to a later date so that is a placeholder at the moment but I'm hoping at at the end of tonight I'll get a better sense of where the board wants to go as I as I mentioned there's no formal votes being expected tonight so with that I'm going to turn it over to Terry whan um to do some introductions please thank you uh my name is Terry whan principal projects and operations administrator and for tonight's topic um in your we did have a staff report and a meeting package with some of their slides um to go over the preliminary evaluation as the chair just referenced and I'm going to introduce uh Kurt raber I'm going to turn it over to Kurt pretty quickly here from Kurt's the principal at Catalyst Architects uh architecture and interiors and he's going to run through uh some scenarios we looked at for f we were following up on uh board action um from late last fall uh and he's U been on site and I think we have some interesting things to share about uh what he's learned and just for some context uh Kurt's fir firm um in in a previous Incarnation had actually done the work on the building of the study back in 2011 so um with that I'll turn it over to Kurt and like I said he's going to run through the slides and the budget and I don't know if if you wanted to run through each option individually or you want him to run through the full um full gamut but I think could do either one go go through the process if there's any questions we can interrupt um and of course once we get through the presentation I'm going to allow for public comment also so um we have plenty of time so so I think I might exemption run through great okay good evening everyone uh as Terry mentioned I'm Kurt rber and I'm an architect at Catalyst architecture and Interiors in yarmouthport and previously our firm was named Brown link was fucho and rabber but we got a couple more partners and we just couldn't keep adding names so we're renamed as Catalyst um we had good fortune to work for the town back in 2011 and we studied ways to improve the current Council on Aging building um and of course I'm very aware of the other uh efforts the town has put into uh design and and and potential uh building and and town meeting efforts and so forth with another uh site for the uh Council on Aging building a new Council on Aging building however um we picked up the phone a couple weeks ago and Terry said we want to go back and look at the old building talk about some of the things that you identified in your report in 2011 look at the site plan and other things that we identified as issues um not not so much problems but sort of building issues and and uh Building Maintenance deferred maintenance that needed to be addressed um so would you come back and sort of redo reexamine the study of the um uh Center for um active living and talk about what the building still needs um so with that we visited the site a couple times took some pictures we went through our old report noted that some of the things that we noted then were still issues still missing uh are still needed to be attended to uh some of those things are some structural improvements and the town's gone through a design and has a design ready to do some structural uh repairs to a foundation where there's some settlement and some cracking the town's also been working with uh Mass Save and Rise engineering to look at a complete renovation of the building's HVAC system uh which is it's time um the opportunity to Electrify the building go to heat pump technology bring in fresh air uh Erv systems is is really um you know new state-of-the-art technology plus the the um um Grant dollars and rebates um from the state in the Mass Save program tremendously advantageous to the town um so it's the perfect time to do that and so some of those things and even the parking shortage that still exists could be addressed immediately doesn't have to wait for a bigger renovation project so that's always an option and then when we get to talking a little bit about the building plans in the budgets for that we have General Building items and those are the things that just need to get done whether whether there's an addition or not or a renovation or not or um we have also sort of option one a which is working within the existing building stretching the the roof line a little bit option 1B considers a renovation an addition in front of the building um and a renovation of the office space option two considers an addition to the building for a senior day program which would be at first main floor first floor level so let's go through my plan diagrams this page um shows the existing conditions plan uh which is still valid we measured and redrew this building um very uh detailed manner back in 2011 and 12 so this plan is the lower level it's walkout basement at the rear of the building and that's at this door this this yellow portion here in the center is the existing stairwell that comes down from the main entrance Lobby um down into the lower level the color coding here I'll zoom in a little bit talk this kind of talks to what we could do to make the building more usable as a center for active uh living um couple days a week and also as a potential location for the senior do daycare uh program two days a week so what we thought was number one there's a driveway and a parking lot on the left side of the building um it comes down a pretty steep slope but if there were going to be a new entrance to the lower level directly we'd like to add something here perhaps it's a covered porch doesn't have to be a fully enclosed heated vestibule uh but it's just a way to get people that come by car or come by the shuttle bus just disembark and get under cover right away get to this door come in the the Yellow Block is a new welcome Lobby the red block is a new office for the senior day program director uh this bright orange in uh here in the center number four is this that stair right now um it was compliant when it was built but when we start renovating this building this stair has to become enclosed at this lower level so this stair would be enclosed rid doorways into it so that it's a proper ESS up to the first floor and it means out um number five is these green areas larger portions of the building however they're encumbered by Steel loly columns um that break up those rooms and make them harder to use so this plan considers that a the X's the red xes are are columns that we'd like to remove in some cases we'd be pulling out a pie piece of Steel and putting a bigger better piece of Steel in in some cases we'd be pulling out a four ply of 2x10 wood beam and replacing it with a steel beam but this is sort of small surgical uh uh renovation projects that would make these rooms feel a lot bigger and be a lot more practical to use um same thing at this lower left corner be a multi-purpose room that could be used as an exercise room but there's a column right in the middle of it when we get upstairs we're going to talk about the same thing um so those are uh oh sorry in the two sixes here if this floor is going to be used for public activity space it really should have a men's and a women's restroom we put those right adjacent to the current furnace room which has the plumbing service and everything so we have to cut the floor and add a lift station because all the sewage leaves this building above the basement floor so we would have to put in a small lift station for these bathrooms finally seven would be a kitchenet or a buffet kind of station with coffee sink Refrigeration um where meals could be served or Refreshments could be served from so that's sort of how we expect we might renovate the lower level to make it um a lot more usable um either for the cfal um or for the senior day program going up one story this green block is the kind of the main multi-purpose room again it's encumbered by a column that's dead center of the room which makes it hard to lay out the tables it's hard for people in the rear of the room to see the TV monitor there's always somebody who got a um a column in their way like the old Boston Garden um and then there's another issue over here on the left side of the building there's a there's a ramp that goes up to the deck at the back of the building but it's super steep so um even the able-bodied volunteers that work for meals for Wheels Meals on Wheels um find that very difficult to uh go up and down especially in inclement weather so we'd like to rebuild that ramp at a much uh shallower pitch um and also per perhaps at the time extend this deck so in this is this the lower level and this uh slide here along with the third slide which is the second level level are all part of that option 1A um up here on the second level we were asked to look at making the multi-purpose room larger better right now when you go up there the it's light and it's bright but the right half of the room is encumbered by the steep slope of the the cape style roof um so when we walked through there we said well couldn't we put a shed Dormer on this side just like the other side similarly we were asked to look at the conference room which has a limited occupancy and limited Headroom um at the front wall so we decided that let's if we're going to do the Dormer at the conference room let's also do it at this Library office used to be a health screening room 10 years ago but now it's the library office so if we could do Dormers there or one big Dormer um a lot more usable space better daylight and increased occupancy um the other thing we'd like to do is to build a covered Port uh roof over this fire stair new building code requires that exterior egress stairs be covered uh to prevent the accumulation of ice and snow and which is certainly you know we want to remove any type of Hazard we can here so that's sort of an important element that we'd like to do in this uh option onea um at in the attic uh story there's actually two units up there but I just put this red uh rectangle here to indicate that all the HVAC for the second floor is up in the attic space so Terry's been working as I mentioned with Mass Save and Rise engineering and the cap light compact um there's going to be some specifications coming forward um to replace these units as well as the units in the basement um with all new heat pumps but while we're doing that we would probably go up and do some weatherization better insulation in the Attic maybe even insulate all the way up at the roof line so that the equipment that is in the attic and the duct work in the Attic is in a condition space so so these simple things are option one a turning to option 1B this is on the first floor now the purple area in order to make the multi-purpose room larger we thought couldn't we in this area now that's sort of kind of overgrown Garden an unused entrance could we stretch the multi-purpose room out another 10 feet remove this wall just like we did to remove the column and put a piece of Steel here we would be adding a good siiz piece of Steel on this line if we take that wall out but could we get this room instead of have just 30 people could we stretch it to be 40 or 45 people for dining or maybe 60 in a lecture seating scenario to make it the biggest room in the building uh while we're adding space in the front of the building we'd like to do a entry vestibule at the front door with a covered porch and there would be a small ramp area underneath that Portico so that the arrival is back at the front of the building currently um if everyone's been over there lately um you know that the handicap access was improved at the rear of the building through this vestibule and then from this old stair Landing there's now a uh sort of a new enclosed vestibule there and a steel ramp that goes down to the parking lot it was put there because it's adjacent to the handicap parking so it made the shortest accessible route to the building but it's not really a permanent solution in my mind um the other half of this slide is the the green area if we were able to make the front entrance at the front door again we would repurpose the the new the current entrance as a rear vestibule take away that old ramp um and this welcome Lobby would be the kind of front to back Center portion of the building and then in the pink area here we would take the current Outreach office and the other programs office move them into the suite of admin offices so that Leah and her four staff that are there you know dayto day would all be in sort of one Central space that could be partitioned off the other thing was that at the center of the plan would be this sort of new welcome desk or concierge style desk Hotel style desk where there sort of be a gatekeeper where the um one person could see anybody come in from either entrance and they I'm told that visitors are asked to sign in um and this way kind of we can see everything happening so this is sort of a a small addition and a big renovation as part of 1B uh on the second floor in that 1B scenario we thought about sort of shuffling up the layout upstairs and right now the library is a series of bookshelves and hallways that kind of M kind of meander through Furniture we'd like to centralize the library back into the center and there still could be some meeting tables in the library space but if we were to kind of move a couple of partitions up here we could create a hall that gets to the enlarged conference room and then a second smaller meeting room there so we might have a conference room that seats 14 to 16 and another one that seats maybe 8 to 10 um there could still be a meeting base in the library for those days when you have so many things going on but small small Renovations and this is part of uh the 1B scenario that we'll examine in the budgets in a moment entering into what we called option two the team said well what what could we do could we look at an addition similar to the one your firm presented in 2011 and 12 um out to I believe that's the south side and I said sure we could look at it and so this addition scenario is a little bit different in configuration the spaces are a little bit smaller considering how many people um might attend uh or this building is designed for somewhere between um six to 10 participants in the senior day program and what we would do is where that steep slope parking lot on the left or South side of the building we'd excavate there put in a full basement and then on the upper level or main level we' have the senior day program but by because we have the benefit of the hill in this basement area we can break through the old Foundation we would have to relocate our HVAC equipment but that then we would have be able to build a couple of spaces that are dedicated storage spaces that Leah's staff is moving around the building to get when it's in their way they have to move it U and those are medical equipment storage and that's sort of a lending um storage where somebody might need a wheelchair or a walker or something like that um so those items would be stored right here we'd have a door right out to the lower level um and we'd still have room to kind of go around the building um we also created an ex exercise storage equipment because in the green block here this large basement room underneath the senior day program could be another big um active room um that could be used 5 days a week six days a week and if that was structured without columns this would be the perfect place to have those yoga or stretching or other activity uh programs and that could live on this level all the equipment could be stored here but it wouldn't encumber the other meeting spaces upstairs um sort of in the uh uh back of that basement if you will um there'd be accessible restrooms we do those in the addition rather than pulling apart the old building and trying to get the plumbing underneath the old building we do that all in the new edition and then a new HVAC room which will be dedicated to this level of the addition and the senior day program upstairs so this slide number seven was considering what would a senior day program look like as an addition to the first floor zooming in again an entrance vestule so we'd have we'd infill U or we bring in some fill into the left side of the property Elevate that so that there'd be a no step entrance to um sort of the back door of the current uh Center for active living and then a new sort of entrance into the day program and this Corridor with inv vestule with would sort of be the welcome area for uh both sides of the building um above the medical storage room where the deck and stair is today we propose an expansion of the kitchen with the senior day program here and larger meeting spaces in the building staff talked about having the ability to do meals for bigger groups of 40 45 people so the kitchen is a little tight for that um so we'd like to perhaps expand the kitchen into this space so we can have larger uh Refrigeration a little bit more counter space for prepping U meals for um you know 40 to 50 people at a time a new enclosed stairwell this would stretch from the basement all the way up to the second floor and then this blue area is dedicated to the senior day program this was envisioned to be a one-story Edition above the basement below and it would have the senior day program director's office a respit room quarter door accessible um restrooms that are dedicated to this space and some custodial space um this is the second uh floor of and again our addition would include enclosed stairwell Corridor on that level as well and a new office space would be sort of a bonus um above the kitchen space so these eight slides kind of talk about what could be be done um we've been working with some local contractors database of kind of current potential building costs that we've been studying going back and forth a couple times with Terry looking at some other projects in town and we this first page is the summary to about eight other pages of calculations but if I could just sort of zoom into the the uh there we go in this orange highlighted block is sort of the base cost that I mentioned these are the things that we think ought to be done to the building as soon as it's it's possible the structural repairs to the foundation HVAC upgrades throughout the building an updating of the elevator which is still working today but it will come to the end of its useful life um and you know somewhere in the next 5 to 10 years this elevator and its guts its Machinery uh will be due to be replaced um so we came up with a construction cost of 530,000 for that bunch of work again this doesn't stretch the building it doesn't uh sort of add anything um to this we've added a whole bunch of modifiers that's sort of uh a contingency for design and construction uh contract track modifiers are I should have started that our construction cost is sort of raw construction cost the the contract modifiers is the uh general contractor's overhead profit insurance and bond permit fees Etc all those those probably be waved um so then we looked at soft costs which might include design procurement um and then uh um the the during and post construction costs are sort of construction Administration fees perhaps there's if this is combined with a larger project it might have to have an OPM um then um there's our total of our soft costs um and soft cost total then we added uh another 10% contingency just because we're at the very very early stage conceptual level although we have have a construction contingency and a design contingency we wanted to make sure that this was you know a conservative estimate um and also these construction costs that we were examined are costs from the last two to three months and we know that um construction costs don't go down very often so this also provides some escalation If This Were to be procured you know six months or a year from now um moving down the page the screen block kind of considers the first three slides I showed you of targeted Renovations in the addition of some dormers on the second floor but not the addition of the senior day program um or the entrance Lobby um or the renovations of the office so the construction costs there were a milon 234 again we have the same scenario of project modifiers and contingencies so that added um um 2.16 million it's about $447 a foot and the square foot there is the square foot of the spaces that we're working in not the total building should have mentioned that the existing building is about 8,660 square feet you see that in the second to bottom row in the orange block uh moving down the page the Blue Block here this is 1 a plus 1B this this is look at the scenario of doing that 1A work plus the addition of the new front entrance and the renovation of the admin office area so this project jumps from 2.1 million to just over 3.3 million again we're looking at more square footage at 7594 the cost per square foot has come down this Yellow Block at the bottom of the page considers 1A 1B and two plus of course those Base building so this is sort of the all-in number um preliminary construction cost at just over 4 million construction contingency construction modifiers um take us to a little over 5.1 soft cost which is design engineering this should I should have mentioned before this includes the parking lot um on the right right side of the building and um re redesigning that regrading Paving uh we don't think we're going to have to move any electrical or gas services but we would add sight Lighting in that parking lot and some new sidewalks to get to the building so there's a fair fair amount of uh in this option two that adds to the project um and the complexity of the design and of course you would have um the op M and other kind of soft costs as well again we added a 10% contingency to this and this pushed the all in number to just over 6.5 million and again this is 13,380 square feet at this point we'd be touching just about everything in the building now we've be doing that in a phased manner we understand that the Council on Aging has to be here and kind of be open and active while this is uh going on um so what we we we were thinking is that 1 a 1B um those things are things that could be phased they don't all have to be done at once uh in fact the 1A work we could build the Dormer in the large meeting room on the left side of the building six months later we could tear into the right side of the building and add the Dormer in the community room and then now this this the second smaller uh meeting room so that work doesn't have to happen simultaneously it also um the building can be open on the first floor below that uh there might be some days when the nail banging and the noise is a little too much but we can also schedule the construction activities to sort of perhaps be off hours um and not disruptive to activities that are planned in the building um just a moment going to touch on the site plan um um so this is the site plan of the existing building here in the center in the sort of gray highlighted this is the area right now which is this new parking area that we showed is area is now lawn it's used for parking anyway um but it considers kind of improving the drive to the uh Condominium Association at the rear of the property and then building some new dedicated parking you know on Town property dedicated to the um CFL a um this green block was the shape of a slightly larger addition that my firm designed you know over a decade ago um we don't think that the building has to go sort of this far um to the South what we'd like to do is sort of build it a little bit more rectangular shape um so that it's sort of in that area and of course it enclos the stair as well so it's a little bit tighter it's not quite as large and why because we think it's the right size um and just the price per square foot of construction now is is just tremendous um so anyway the uh um that's the site we can come back to that if you have questions about the site plan uh and then finally oops this is a rendering that somebody in my office did just to kind of show you what those this is a new Dormer and this is new Dormer space here but modest construction projects but would make a tremendous difference in the way the building's used um and uh just a small quick computer rendering of what it looks look like over an existing photograph but with that I'll stop talking and take any questions all right first of all thank you very much for that presentation very much appreciated um I'm going to open up to questions or comments from the board um start to my left with our board um Dean your the Le is on so thank you Mr chairman um thank you Kurt um I'm not going to be very long because I did have the opportunity to U uh witness um a preliminary president presentation of this uh last week um I just wanted to say up front I'm pleased with um the report I'm pleased with the selection of the firm that did it and I'm pleased with the presentation tonight uh I'll just say very briefly um this goes beyond what I originally had in mind when I uh offered the motion to um have an engineering study I was sort of thinking we were going to get um report that um consisted of repairing and replacing things and U you've essentially re-engineered the interior of the building to make it more serviceable and more useful and I think that's a very intriguing concept so I'm going to leave it at that I'm very anxious to hear what my colleagues on both boards have to say and what the public has to say Thank you Mr chairman thank you um sh thank you for the presentation it's very interesting um I have some questions you had mentioned um that there was a you know a way to build project as a phased approach but wouldn't wouldn't that be a cost increase to the to the whole project if it's over time based on the idea that construction costs are are always increasing yeah and that's one of the reasons we added that other 10% contingency we just didn't know how long this might stretch out certainly the best construction number would be if you vacated the building and you kind of went after it and did it as fast as you could if we were to um do sort of the onea in small steps and came we the building could still be occupi when you came around a year or two years later and did one b um and you may say hey we can do that and then the building would be really more serviceable and we could defer to um you may say hey we need the parking now could we take the parking from option two put it in with 1A so we can we can re-engineer the budgets and kind of stack things together as um the town may decide is important um but to answer your question every time you sort of bid a project again and you rebond it again and you most importantly well you know the project like this would require full-time superintendent onsite supervision of the work um that's costly it's just just the personnel and the longer the contract is the the more it will cost so the uh thank you the other question I had or couple is um uh again in the in in the idea of phased approach or not phased approach we don't have any um like it wasn't up to you to do this but I mean I don't see any reflection of what the displacement costs would be to uh you know move the move the program someplace else for a period of time and um I think that that should be reflected somewhere um the off hours could you describe to me you mentioned also off hours as an approach to building wouldn't that be a labor cost that would be higher or yeah I think if if but I was kind of thinking if we could concentrate the activities into two or three days a week and give the contractors maybe Thursday Friday Saturday um to really do the large heavy noisy work um especially if it were um sort of in the building uh if we were doing that work where we're removing columns adding new beams we would have to limit occupancy above that right so that would be something where the building could be open but certain rooms might be closed because there's temporary Shoring holding up the floor above um so that we'd like to do it'd be great if we could do that on a Friday Saturday Sunday Monday on a holiday weekend um so that's what of just trying to strategically decide when is the best time to do that work and also work with um staff to sort of perhaps relocate some programs or stagger them every two weeks or something so that we have a little bit more opportunity for the contractor to get a lot of work done thank you for now thank you Corey Kurt nice to see you again um thank you for the presentation uh I I like the fact of the options of course I I kind of lean towards the full monty um right right right out of the gate if we were to do this I am concerned about phasing as has been noted by uh both my predecessor uh select board members I am um I'm going to ask you a question and I guess I am going to put you on the spot a little bit but um you know as an investor are we throwing good money after bad number one and are the bones of this building do the bones of this building warrant its Improvement I think so um we just had a meeting the other day unrelated project with a contractor and we said to him should we take the building down and just build a bigger building and for the first time in a long time he said no he said I think you've got a lot of you know money saved in the building that you have in the bones um this building although it's got lots of columns um in the way and we want to sort of take those away um it's it's still you know a sturdy building say for the one corner that's got some settlement but we've got a plan for that um I think there's a there's a fire sprinkler system there's a sewer connection it already has a 400 amp um electric service it already has a generator so there's a lot of infrastructure already there um that makes sense to sort of build around um I think the addition space is better space than the existing basement or could be right um because it's below grid um we have small windows we could add bigger windows to the basement that's not considered here but it's not a a deal breaker um but the ceiling is only 7 fo 8 or 7 fo n the beams come down to 7 feet we can't go lower than that so if we take out a steel beam at 7 feet we still got to get a bigger better beam that's still the same depth um to make that work um so I think building new spaces in the end might be perceived as better space than the renovation of the basement but I hope that answers your question it does and you've addressed at least uh out of the gate for me the columns in the basement are just a deal breaker I can't stand them I think they're totally dysfunctional they get in the way of any kind of physical Andor sight lines that you want to do there any kind of physical exercise you want to do there or entertaining you want to do there dining Etc and then the the conference room in the library on the second floor library and quotation marks big time um it's a rabbit warrant of confusion when I when I go up there and doing the Dormers makes sense and at least you can be fully functional in that conference room where where the board meets Etc and where they have meeting space then the library needs to be you know rationalized um again library and quotation marks I'm not disparaging it it's just you know if they're going to have a library you know kind of listen have one or a computer room if you will let's have usable usable space current libraries are more than just books and periodical right there's there yeah um terminals with computers and sort of other collaborative space yeah I I mean I I want to hear from everybody I want to hear from the board and the public as well but those are my initial reactions I think you've address some of the real real dysfunctions that have been in that building for a long time and continue to exist just a question of our proclivity to invest uh in this facility going forward so thanks and I was somewhat heartened by your square foot cost anyway thanks Mike yeah um let let me address that point right out of the gate I I think the question with respect to square foot costs even if you buy the number that your that your uh numerator is the the denominator is sort of you know are we adding 5,000 square fet or are we building a whole new building building of 13,000 Square ft I I I think I I would not suggest that we get carried away with the square foot cost but and you can comment on that if you like um I I first thanks for the presentation uh I think you've done a really good job of taking a building that um you know I would I would have said and and probably might still say it has seen its day and you've created a lot of good space um you've improved the space considerably and I I like that um my concern is first of all I I with all due respect I think the numbers one has to be a little bit of a doubting Thomas with respect to the numbers not because I have any concern about what you're saying right but it's just the nature of the Beast um that and particularly uh when I mean I guess one question I would ask you is assuming we did option two what's what do you think the useful life of this building is how long does this building realistically last considering that in a in a perfect world it's going to get increased use increased um um you know punishment etc etc well I I guess the this the square foot cost we're we've seen new projects ground up you know ra land um be anywhere from 600 we just priced one the other day came in at 800 um but it was a very complex commercial building with a lot of plumbing and and um mechanical issues um I think the the per square foot numbers we put in there because everybody always asks don't get CAU we just wanted to kind of it's a gauge for us to kind of understand sort of what we're what we're drawing what we're designing and then just kind of gauge it against other projects um the building with the addition and some Renovations because you can't I I wouldn't say you want to just do the addition and not touch the old building we've already got 530,000 of work we know we want to do should be done um in the building um the bones are good um the spaces aren't Grand but um with the new heating system which is part of that initial Base building improvements the elevator Improvement could make this building last another 30 years okay um what is the number or I take it the base cost at the top yeah of your chart we need to do that no matter what if we're going to continue to use the building is that a fair conclusion here yeah cuz that's got those uh structural improvements the HVAC improvements the elevator improvements um and then just Ada improvements because the town did commission a study a couple of years ago right um that identifies and is there a duplication with respect to the HVAC the the stuff that Terry's working on with the state is if we come back and do option two does that is that um option two includes new HVAC work in the addition only the rest of the Base building includes the HVAC work for the replacement of the um five existing air furnaces so assuming we're going to touch this building how much of this um what you have up there do we have to spend in order for this or how far down the chart do we have to get in order for this building to be completely current code compliant well the the base costs are going to sort of update your elevator and it also includes 70,000 in sort of uh miscellaneous hardware and other accessibility issues um the renovation of scheme 1A included uh restrooms at the lower level um and option two included sort of new walkways and ramps and and and parking so it's a little bit if we did 1A yeah it you can still get in the building is still compliant um well no but that the way I'm asking the question in other words we have do we have to spend what I I would add base and onea yeah to $3 million so we need to spend $3 million for this thing to be code compliant I think there's things in that 3 million are which are not issues they're they're just improvements um if that makes sense they're they're nice to have but they're not required there's a lot of things in there that are nice so they're under the heading of while I'm at it yeah okay all right I I'll stop there I have a bunch of questions but I I I'll stop there and pass it on right well first of all thank you for the various options I think that is helpful as far as a um healthy discussion this has been a long topic I we we've we've discussed this for you know some some time um but to the point I think everyone's making there's a so lot of early phases because with this allak Kart type you know option which is wonderful I think um there's a lot of you know numbers that may increase right they're not they're like unlikely going to decrease but they're going to increase um we got to factor in where where our priority is um if we wanted to take something from column A and column B to kind of combine it together um and what is our uh vision of this particular facility um phasing it um the pros and cons you could use the building to some level um with minimal interruptions more on certain days but as mentioned earlier um if we close the building down for a lengthier period of time you got the extra cost of displacing it relocating all those elements that we've discussed in Prior projects so um there's still some numbers floating out there that we don't have a hard you know core on yet which we will get to um you know this is kind of a step back type of view on the numbers uh it gives us options it gives us options on a site that I know probably one of our one of my colleagues said we should have done this you know ex am money years ago um you know we we don't know we don't know we don't have a crystal ball uh we've had a long um discussion multiple sites M multiple Concepts multiple feelings multiple votes uh and this gives us something that we can L you know frankly I think we can honestly take a good solid look at and think of is this something that we could kind of move forward um you know in a relatively within within this year within this year could we have an a really good solid idea of where we're heading with this so um people keep asking you know after last town meeting like where do you go this gives us a legitimate option to consider this is where we may want to go as a community and to giving us the options I appreciate um and I understand what you're saying also too that there's certain things that are code required but there's kind of the extra bonuses as Mike was said while we're at it we're getting in here we got the crew we got the walls opened up or whatever you might as well do it now but if you go back and do it later it's going to cost more in the long run so it's kind of forward thinking of how you tackle these projects so I do appreciate that so um I think this is a path that we we I don't know exactly where we're going to end up Landing on this but I think it's definitely worth uh very strong consideration some further discussions um and I would appreciate um you know the the the Cil agent board directors to weigh in on it and I'm also going to appreciate any comments the public may want to add on this so um at the moment now pass over to Pat Pat we'll let you take over your board thank you Corey and thank you Kurt um I as well had heard the presentation before and um was very surprised we could get such a nice uh redesign I have a couple of design questions just because I was thinking of them while you were doing it in the um new big multi-purpose rooms where one the one I'm on 1B in the dining area what happens is uh we move a lot of tables around and chairs and I don't see any storage for those like where are we going to put them when if we just need chairs and we don't need tables and I know from visiting other um couns on Aging storage is a huge issue and you know Anna is pushing them around and flipping them all over the place and it would be nice if we could say okay we're going to spend some money we but we need a place to put those right it would be that would be a really nice thing to have sort of on this main level as a storage room so you don't have to take things down the stairs or in the elevator understood thank you and um my other question had to do with um you know I I read all this late this afternoon and so I have a question on the total is the total of sans the base cost 1 a 1B and two about 6 and a half million would that be correct so the 6 and a half is sort of all in it's the base cost and then what would would the total of 1 a and 1B be 3.3 million or is it is that right well yeah so this is sort of cumulative yeah so each time you go down you sort of we've left the blocks above so it's got the base building the second block is the 1A um and then the 1B is 1 a 1B and the base okay so improvements and then then the bottom includes support of adult a but in the original plan were we to go with 1 a and 1B we would be able to do support of a Del a health within the lower level the way you had um designed it um okay and we and we we assumed that that lower space would be I think two days a week for supportive day yeah and then the other 3 days a week or four days a week it could be used for any type of program right yeah and it would give us a lot of space it really would um and just one comment for Jeff people use that Library every day so I just wanted to let you know that because uh we have a librarian uh from the friends who goes in there and gets books for us and gets discounts and does all these wonderful things and all the books are all um you know bestsellers so I don't want people to think uh you know the books are from 1922 I certainly didn't mean to insinuate that I just I just I just know that it feels like you're in a little rabbit War when you're up it does and we have some um furniture that we could uh you know I don't think we could get rid of if we wanted to um thank you I may have more but I'm going to pass to Laura well I'm excited to see that we're able able to um have some feasibility with the building um I'm new to all this and the long history here so this feels great that there's something we can move forward with and maybe still you know kind of have some compromise with um people you know who don't really want to spend a lot of money into the building so thank you basically that's what I have to say Joe I thank you very much I I think we've got to start doing something every day it cost us more money and we've got to decide on something and I think this would certainly appeal to the town this has to go before town meeting right oh yes it would okay um still got to have two-third a vote on that too yes okay anyway I think when we can combine these but using the building is that going to be a a higher cost because they're working on Saturday I mean do they get overtime or whatever so the cost of using the building but still building uh improving the building is that going to up the cost because it's not being done on a say 9 to5 or whatever basis yeah it it certainly could um and we've done um sort of live Renovations we've done them in in in uh Banks where the bank is open for business the drive-thru is open the lobb's open but we're kind of in like one3 oneir and then literally over that holiday weekend you pull out all the furniture and you bring in the new um so it's it's a lot of logistics of could we compress the programming into three days Monday through Wednesday and give the contractor Thursday Friday Saturday to really tear into the building and make noise and do power disconnections and other things so it would be a Cooperative effort rather than moving out and I think it costs a little bit more but perhaps it it saves the relocation Fe costs okay thank you be I think my has been answered already okay um I know Nancy Fields had her hand up uh Kathy yes Nancy has her hand up hi Nancy hi Pat hi everyone um I add my thanks for the presentation I think it's excellent unfortunately I did not get a copy of the costs so I have not been able to look at that so I might have more questions on that later but my specific question for now I have a lot of questions comments and input on the specific plans but I don't think this is the um space to do that to to raise those issues but one I did want to raise is on option two uh page six the the plan on page six where you don't show removing the columns in the basement that you did show on the earlier options so I'm just wondering if you would contemplate removing the columns in option two or if option two is really additive to the other two options so the fact that it was already addressed in one of the earlier options is means by default it's addressed here it's it that's that's correct we we decided that if we built the new restrooms and the new exercise room in this addition Wing we might not do that structural work in the basement so our our option two our option two did kind of avoid some of the dirty work in the basement okay I I would urge that we rethink that because those those spaces are nearly unusable as they are configured today so having that those two significant spaces added to our um uh programming options would be would would be huge so I I feel like that's even if nothing else were done in the whole building I think that it least should be done to in increase our our usable space great see Stan Stan mansfi is also online Stan do you have any questions or comments totally agree yes I do um a key item that we've always lacked and of course all of us have been other other senior Senators is a um is a multipurpose room which is exactly what it says it's not an exercise room alone it's not a dining room alone it's it's an all allpurpose room I was just wondering you have three potential um potential multi-purpose rumors that you that you've shown and I'm just wondering what the dimensions of those are so why don't I go back to that that's that's very important yeah so um these two rooms are almost identical in size in in the lower level um and inside the foundation they're about 24t by 24t each or 450 Square F feet okay um up on the main level it's the ident identical sized room um again well this like 242 by 24 and2 because the walls are a little thinner um and then on the upper level again that would be the same size um so they're all about 24 or 25 fet um in both dimensions um in our 1B we considered stretching the first floor sort of dining room uh by 10 ft so that would be you know 35 by 25 okay but uh but the total would be in any case the total will be close to how much um all the all the rooms together no no the total of each potential multi-purpose room would so there would there would be uh three at 24 uh by 24t and then this the option 1B Edition the main first floor multi-purpose room would stretch and become 35 by 25 okay because um you you were talking about an exercise room available sorry in sort of the multi-purpose room downstairs now the problem is that that and I've never seen a senior center where the meals are served on a different floor than the kitchen so that that would in other words that could be an exercise room but it wouldn't serve as a multi-purpose room is that is that my understanding correct okay well if you total up the size the maximum size it just isn't anywhere near big enough for a quote multi-purpose room um having looked at maybe five or six different senior centers that would be uh just be totally inadequate and since that's that's probably the key item we're looking at here that we've always lacked um I just wonder if there's any way to to uh make it larger it's it's like about a third of the size of the smallest one we've seen I I I understand what you're asking and there certainly is a way to take that first floor room and and make it larger um it's a it's a what wasn't considered in this conceptual design or these preliminary budgets but it could be we could look at um a bigger we could look at a bigger room on the first floor and perhaps that means uh going out to the south of the left and that would sort of further displace the the addition um but very very feasible okay okay the other question is about parking um it sounds like you you're going to be able to expand the parking space what what would be the maximum number of vehicles that it could hold other words you were using Town property as well as the current current space so we that's also a key issue is very important issue right so um I do you know exactly how many spaces you have now I think it's n well again it's not what formal versus nonformal but I think they met on that was 34 yeah spaces 3 our our plan from you know a decade ago considered a plan with 35 spaces dedicated um right in that table um to to the um COA it's a little bit of a hybrid because some of the spaces in that parking lot actually are de to the association next door but um we could definitely get 35 and I think there's less than 20 now 19 today 35 tomorrow okay again just you speaking to everybody that that that that's a key issue and um we were told that even at 1610 with room for I don't know how many it was was it 65 that that 5 57 could be inadequate under certain circumstances it's just another issue that if we were going to spend all this money we'd certainly like to um accommodate a good number of vehicles that that were that were that were absolutely needed it doesn't sound like it's really possible it would be hard here hold on je I had a follow question in a sec I think for the I think for the parking I think we are limited I think that it's a very safe position to take that we we have some limitation on parking sure okay okay thank very much Jee you had a followup question I just wanted to reaffirm Nancy Field's comment about the The Columns in the basement on on plan you know option two they really got they really got to come down the beam's got to go in there and make that space usable is functional space it's just it's just not wasted space but it's just dysfunctional space at present so I would suggest that those that those Lolly colums are got to come down and the steel beam's got to go in thanks um Pat um one question Kurt when you're talking about parking spaces you're talking about all the parking spaces to the if I'm looking at the front of the building to the right would we lose the parking spaces that we have on the left that not many people park there but we have some the addition would displace those but if we didn't have the addition um well in in this design that we came up with we totally reconfigured the driveway and we put some new spaces in the front yard facing back towards the street so that there was a drop off Loop okay that's still feasible and there's sort of four on the property line and six or seven along the street MH okay thank you follow Mike yeah I I I just I want to say a couple of things uh F first of all um I I appreciate the the um let's say the optimistic uh view that we we can stage this with people you know workers working three days a week and and people um taking advantage of the center four days a week or whatever plan uh my own view here and it's purely my own personal view is is that um when when you actually try to put that into in into into place you've got people totally dissatisfied with their space when they're using it and I'm talking about construction workers when they're constructing and Senior Center uh constituents when they're programming and um what's worse I mean that contemplates not only only a cleanup every day but a sort of put it back in usable condition every night uh to me the the the cost and inefficiency of that just makes it a a frankly again in my humble opinion a pipe dream to do it that way I I think if you're going to think about this um and you can have whatever opinion you want to have about it but if you're going to think about this you ought to think about it in terms of doing the whole project as quickly as you can get your bids get your contracts um and and and do the job uh and be done with it and and I don't want to imply a point of view on that at this point because my second point is um I mean somebody said I I think Pat said she read the numbers this afternoon um the board at least I didn't see the numbers until this afternoon the idea that we are in a position that we can make a decision about what to do here um even as a board uh seems to me to be you know a little bit premature all right before I go to the public I didn't want to make a just a followup question or comment um on that basically the time there's no debate that the longer we wait costs can go up higher we understand that but I think at least from the conversations we've had so far there's an understanding that there's some general support for moving this discussion forward still a lot of details to work out um exactly what direction we want to go in and Etc so um the reality of it is we're closing the warrant uh theoretically tomorrow and that's why I have a placeholder on our agenda tomorrow uh if this was something that we wanted to kind of queue up for um the May town meeting of this year which I think is a little bit very aggressive and I think it's very premature um I could be my in minority there but that's this my general thought so I think this is something that if there's enough support for it whichever version 1 a1b option two whatever um it we take some more time to spend some time hashing out all these details we want to do and you know whether it be a special town meeting in the fall next year's town meeting I don't know I don't want to get too far ahead of myself but I don't think it's ready for May of 2024 that is my thoughts so uh I would appreciate any comments from the public who would like to just ask one more question yes please um just some clarification on the um the uh HVAC system um it would be totally renovated in the base costs right yes but you said if in option two would only be a portion of it so we op we calculated a a separate construction budget for each like one a one b and two um and two only considered HVAC in the new square footage not in the anything in the old bilding that was considered in the base cost oh so it was was inclusive yeah it was it was sort of two different numbers right um but not duplicated okay I got it thank you Pat just two things Kurt were if we were to do the whole project at once what would the timeline on that P you know I'm not saying let's start tomorrow but you know 18 months 12 months months with the addition the phase the option two addition as well yeah let's we did I think if the if the building was vacated I think you could do it in um 10 seems a little short but definitely 12 months okay and um I would have to agree with Corey um that I believe that um bringing this to town meeting would be a bit premature at this point I think we need to have more discussion about it and um really listen to what people have to say Sor I'm done Mr chair just it's still uh Nancy Fields has her hand up Nancy go ahead thank you um I would like to Second what Mike said about getting the construction done um moving everyone out and getting it done as fast as possible I'm thinking logistically from particularly Anna's perspective where you're when you you don't plan these programs at the last minute you need more than a couple of weeks to uh you know contract with speakers and figure out where space is going to be and all of that kind of stuff so I think to expect that on a daytoday even a week to week even a month-to-month basis that Anna would be able to shift programs around uh is just putting more of a burden on staff then I I think it's fair to ask of them I I I totally agree with Mike that if we're going to do this let's move everyone out find some uh other space and let them do their jobs while this is going on thank you thank you Nancy all right now I'm going to go to the public I'll start with the in-house audience is there anyone in the house tonight would like to make a comment question somebody come on M David M hi Dave Mt I'm from chadam first of all thank you Catalyst um uh I think it was about 12 months ago I stood in this room and said what we really need to do to solve this problem is to or solve this issue uh it would be to look at it with some fresh eyes and some creativity and I think that's exactly what you've done and I applaud you for that um I agree with some of the speakers that have said if you're going to do this you know just go after it get it done um I've been through a progress Construction in my corporate life where we've moved from floor to floor and moved things around while construction was being done it is more of a hassle than one might imagine and your inclination to say that it probably ends up being more expensive is probably true so if you're going to do it I think you at this juncture we shouldn't get mired in the details of what's going to get moved where and how but it's is this a concept that that we can live with is this an idea that that can get pushed forward um as as you know I I was a bit of a vocal opponent uh for the last uh the last go around but I could see myself supporting this in in great detail because I think it does make use of assets that we already have reusing those assets and adding to them and I I I applaud the effort thank you any other comments from the audience in house tonight questions Leia sh with you go ahead um thank you Mr chair good evening Lea lacrosse director of community services I just want to say thank you to cartt uh first of all because we spent some time together going through this and he really captured um everything that we said we needed in order to make the space more usable um in fact like Mr M said the creativity he showed um he really captured everything that we said that we needed and speaking for my uh staff I would say that we are you know if it saves the town money we are willing to either move or stay put in due phases with whatever is works out best what's important to us is that we finally have a building that will really fit our needs and I think um in these plans that we really do so um you know speaking for the the people who use the space every single day I could tell you that this plan with everything he put in there really captures everything that we needed and um and I would appreciate consideration thank you thank you and once again anyone in house with a question or comment all right anyone online have a question or comment uh no hands yet all right well I'll Circle back to the board Dean thank you Mr chairman um I appreciate everybody's um input tonight um I look upon this entire project as trying to achieve what is politically possible we know what's not politically Ally possible we've seen that in several Town meetings and I think it's incumbent upon the board the select board to move a project forward we're not ready to advance this project it needs more examination and it should not as you suggest Mr chairman go to this upcoming annual town meeting I think what should happen is after meeting as we begin the new fiscal year for the select board to take this up again for the council and aging to take it up again independently and perhaps in the meantime depending upon what funds are available in the town manager's Consulting budget um Kurt could um make some redesign changes based on the comments this evening and concerns that have been expressed but I do think that this concept merits serious consideration by the town uh we have an obligation to provide a pro a facility that is hospitable and usable by the seniors of chadam um we've talked about I and I fully agree that trying to accommodate construction work while programming is taking taking place is probably um an impossible practicality uh I remember when the idea of knocking this building down and putting up a new one several years ago at the cost of $6 million or so was suggested by this select this selectman that's what I was called back then um many folks said well you're going to display these programs the Council on Aging programs will die in the interim well that was proven Wrong by covid when the Council on Aging building was effectively shut down for two years and we still ran a Council on Aging so it is possible I think to find venues for some of the programs albe it on a limited basis while a construction takes place as far as the parking is concerned that's a problem and it's a problem that's not solvable on this premises we just have to accept that um what's the solution for that shuttle parking at the DPW lot or on other Town lots and shuttling people for those larger events is this perfect is it ideal no is it politically practical I think it makes a lot more practical sense than trying to Envision a much larger building a considerably larger cost on some as yet undefined unfound location in town so my hope is that we will not do anything tomorrow night that that agenda item will be removed and that we will revisit this as a town as a community as more people in town have the opportunity to weigh in on it over the coming months and take a look at it seriously after town meeting and maybe we decide not to do anything maybe we decide that options 1 a and 1B are are what make sense at the present time and not option b option two um but I I think we should take a serious look at it and I think we've had a I think a lot of good questions were asked tonight and a lot of cons good concerns were expressed this evening so I'm I'm pleased with the result um and um I think the town manager and her staff for making this possible thank you Mr chairman thank you other questions or comments from panel here all right I think this was a very healthy discussion I very much appreciate the the the presentation um it is a healthy set of eyes that was placed on it I think you've added a new layer to the conversation um that was um kind of I think people are looking for and I and I do appreciate all the effort you've put into this so far so stick with us please thank you um um I want to thank the audience that was signed on or at least were were signed on and everyone who showed up tonight so uh with all that being said I'll turn it over to Pat to adjourn her committee motion to adjourn second I move and I second it thank you uh Betty yes Joe yes Laura yes uh Nancy yes uh and the chair says yes Stan yes oh Stan I forgot you I'm sorry and a motion to Second all right all those in favor select member NE Castro hi member Davis Hi member dykens i s member shell I and slipper member met says I so good night everyone thank you very [Music] much [Music]