e again welcome to the Chad and Township committee meeting of May 7th this is our Workshop meeting uh can everybody rise for our Flex to the flag of the United States of America and to the rep for stands indivisible andice for thank you okay so um Mr Ley confirmed that adquate notice was given um that was before we were before we were into executive session and so we are moving to the hearing of citizens Mr L can you share the guidance for the hearing of citizens members of the public are now welcomed to come up to the microphone to address the ten committee this is an opportunity for any m the public to be heard about issues which are not topic scheduled for public hearings tonight those present May step up to the microphone to be heard if you're watching via Zoom you may speak during any of the public comment sessions by following the zoom instructions to raise your hand whether in person or online when you're recognized to speak please mind the following procedures please say your name spell your last name and give the name of your street you do not need to give your street number all public comments will be lied to 3 minutes rather than use any of your time answering questions the township committee will wait until you finish speaking before responding there are two public comment sessions on tonight's agenda each member of the public will be limited to one comment of up to three minutes during each public comment period written comments submitted to the Township Clerk before 3 p.m. today will be read during the public comment sessions written comments are subject to the same guidelines as oral comments duplicative written comments may be summarized rather than read in full according to guidelines issued by the New Jersey Division of Go Local Government Services thank you we we do not have any written comments okay thank you uh do we have anybody on Zoom uh yes we do hello uh can we hear me yes hi good evening my name is Stuart Carr c a RR from three Crestwood Drive in chadam Township New Jersey wanted to speak for a moment again on the Oprah reform item uh some of you may be aware all of you an apologies for redundancy that is coming up again on Thursday the uh 9th of May to my understanding with a vote schedule for Monday the 12th of May so the last six weeks and we're talking about let's get on this case here we are it's coming right up and it's coming right down jamming down our throats again so I guess a couple of comments I'd like to make are number one is there anything we can do to actually get the attorney here to spend a little bit of time and give a more balanced view of what's going on specifically with respect to the fee shifting issues and some of these other issues that have come up in my emails and otherwise instead of again basically giving the infomercial for the league of municipalities and Conference of uh Mayors etc etc I think again the in defense of the C the committee you people have huge amounts on your table and it is incumbent upon the administrator and the attorney to give an executive summary to people like Mr Troy who didn't have time to really get dig into it because it's got a lot of other things on the table and I do again fault the committee a little bit for not pushing the administrator and the council to actually give you guys an executive summary of what's going on so hopefully we could do that tonight if not then again so be it and shame on all of us but one thing a couple specifics real quickly number one with Mr shahadi in the comment I think back in April or so about the um non- elimary uh ambulance Chasers etc etc the other side of that of course is those people for the most part those attorneys are again at the behest of people who want to get open public records and in fact the things are going after are by definition open public records if there was more stuff online or available easily then they wouldn't have to be doing half of that and just like the administrator and attorneys work for a living in are professionals the these people are professionals as well so there may well be some kinds of uh uh breaches in the system or abuses of the system but for the most part that's a cost of doing business and I'm not sure we've really spoken to that the attorney has given the committee a good overview of what this fee shifting will do when it goes from statuto if a u plaintiff wins a case then the then the uh Council pays or the town pays to this judicial um difference scenario and I guess one thing with that basically is if in fact for Mr Shah's case that the attorney's uh charging all this money and the township has to pay all this money for all these fees for all these lawsuits maybe the answer of course is fire the attorney and fire the clerk and fire the administrator because they're not giving out the public information that should have been available in the first place so it kind of cuts both ways but the net net of all that is I don't think the committee has gotten a good enough summary of what is actually going on and why they should be actively opposed to this type of thing as opposed to being neutral we have a Democrat majority therefore silence effectively is um again agreeing with Trenton off the hook there's Al real quick not to let Mr Lois off the hook there's also some Republicans who are your is up therefore they should be there as well thank you up thank you Mr Carr um I'm not going to shift into Oprah now but um the um the part that he mentions was part of the original legislation so I might want to ask you that during the administrative section when we when we go into the administration reports but I don't want to put you on the spot with anything else that's new unless you feel comfortable talking about it but um let's hold off on that for now um any other anybody else good evening um Nicole hagner ha N River Road um mayor e will just procedurally we're here because I know uh during the engineers report we'll be talking about the greenway connector the Green Village connector so is now the opportunity for us to ask our questions or would we have the opportunity after we hear the presentation to ask questions you know I was thinking about that before you came up um I I think we should you know we'll end the public session and then we'll we'll do another one um unless there's any objection from the committee but I think that's perfectly fine so Mr Rush will give us a presentation and then we'll reopen the public session because I don't want you guys waiting till the bidder end in order to have any you know well and we'd like to hear the presentation because maybe that will questions as well okay thank you very much I appreciate it hi Jessica Rome Pine Street I just wanted to say I know the native plant ordinance is on a discussion item I'm here if you want to ask any questions that was put forth by the environmental commission and written by us so if there's any questions I'm happy to answer them thank you just deting I don't want to keep you here all night does anybody have any questions now from or do you want to wait also the same do you want us do that the same okay yeah we can do that then that way when we talk about it thank you um okay anybody else on Zoom uh no hands okay thank you all right we're going to close out that public session and um why don't we move to the presentation on the Green Village connector Trail okay so um ministrator said cap cap sweet and so I'm not going to go into a lot of detail but uh essentially this was a project that um was was identified um several years ago um as as uh as a project that the committee wanted to pursue uh initially with a u a grant with uh Morris County um the the grant the path itself is actually in the master plan and uh I I think that was one of the reasons why um you know I wasn't involved in the initial we were looking at the Morris County grant opportunities and looking at various different projects and I know the master plan was looked at and this this project was pulled out as as something to uh to uh look at um it was presented to Morris County and the Morris County was was very in favor of it um the V the the overall goal of the project is to inter interconnect the the sidewalk that's on Southern Boulevard so you can essentially walk the sidewalk on Southern Boulevard Connect into uh this Trail which will bring you over to the uh Morris Cary Park system the Lano reservation so that that was the intent of of making this connector is that we're connecting you know the the um Southern Boulevard with with that um County Park system um and the county uh even from the beginning recognized that the Township's portion of this connector Trail was was phase one um it was that the township would take the first initiative to install this Trail on their property and then the county uh was going to uh continue the trail once we cross once we intersect with Green Village we go um from that point they were going to take the lead and connect it into their their park system and their trail system so um there was uh from the very beginning uh uh not they weren't sure exactly what what path they were going to take um there was some discussions with a property owner of possibly acquiring their property and so they from the very beginning the planning stages the county wasn't sure exactly how they were going to connect it but that was their goal their goal was to fund our project have the uh Township Contin uh you know construct its portion being phase one and then they would continue with phase two to complete the connector uh into the system um the this the trail is is basically an eight foot wide um okay a portion of it is porous pavement which is basically just asphal and then the other portion is actually an elevated Boardwalk it's it's very similar construction to what you would see uh if you go to the Great Swamp Bhed the uh the the the um the Refuge and and they have them throughout and that's generally what the construction it's following the same um US Department of of forestries Standards regarding the construction of that Boardwalk um so the the the project has been basically designed with the alignment shown the alignment um was was tweaked to a degree when we went to the uh D and uh got obtained a Wetlands permit and also a flood Hazard permit um they they were looking at the alignment they they they tweaked the alignment a little bit they actually had us extend um the uh the boardwalk a bit just to breach some or just go over some more sensitive areas that they wanted us to and so um the general alignment on our site was was coordinated with the D and take into considerations the location of the flood Hazard area and the location of the wetlands um where we're into connecting um with the um the uh Green Village um initially we we were trying to have the path go you know straight through the center of of that finger of the township property which township lots are are right here this is the township border and this is the initially we were proposing to put it right through the center uh trying to keep separation from the two properties and just giving some buffer between the two um but we did meet with the Morris County engineering department and basically they dictated where they would uh like to see the path come out and cross Green Village um they they they regulate um the location of the crosswalk and and uh constru all the improvements that we're doing um on Green Village so they we are uh proposing to do Flash and beacons um at at the crosswalk so residents can can do that um there are going to be um striping and and and signage all along the uh approach to the crosswalk um you'll see uh a crosswalk ahead painted on on the road going over in multiple locations and so um so we're following the County's um guidance and and their what their not guidance but frankly their requirements of what they they want to see um with the crosswalk so um where we are with um permitting we have obtained all the permits that are necessary the the D permits in the Morris County sore Conservation District um right now the the project the design was was U funded through a grant um through Morris County um the township did have a 20% match on on that Grant um the construction we did Ain a grant from um the uh New Jersey Department of Transportation it's a transportation enhancement Grant um and that will will'll pay 100% of of the construction cost um that uh we we the initial construction cost was just over a million dollars um with that Federal program even though it does take a while before you actually get through their program and bid the project and construction so it may be a year or two before we actually do that so if there's escalations of cost they they they will pick that up they they um they've done that in many projects even with our similar program is a safe routes to school program so you know even then that case the cost estimate that that was done years ago they they just basically you know update the cost estimate and that's what they agree to fund so they will fund 100% of of that um from a design perspective the only remaining portion of the design um that is left is actually doing soil borings just the the verif the foundation for the the boardwalk itself um that was uh was not done um right away because frankly we wanted to uh confirm the alignment with the D and get them to agree with the alignment uh in the proximity of the wetlands and then um so since we've H got that we've um we have hired a um a contractor to actually clear a pad so the driller can get into the locations to drill it um it's it's going to be approximately a 12 by um 15 foot um clearing that the contractor is going to do he already cleared over by um Nash field he hasn't started on the Green Village side because it's it's just been too wet and so he's been waiting to get in there so um but that that's what he's going to clear that so we can get the drill rig in um that is going to be the extent of of the clearing associated with the site it was the intent is to minimize the the clearing to the maximum extent possible so we're only clearing a maximum 15 ft you know through this whole Corridor so so that's that's the extent of all the clearing that's going to be done so um and then I I would anticipate that the drilling is not going to be is not going to happen until the summer only because during the drier months the ground is is a little more firm we didn't want to pay the add added expense of having it come in with swamp mats and and make this into a major project versus going in with a small drill mounted rig and they can they can come in and just install the boring so um that's the only part of the design that's left to complete that um we are with the federal um agency is that they have a a process that they have to follow um under the because it is funded it's it's funded through the the New Jersey DOT but New Jersey is using federal funds to uh uh to to um fund the project so we have to follow federal guidelines and there's a u an initial process that's done it's a category exclusion uh determination and it's a process that the do does internally and and uh it's it's basically they're going through the federal regulations and making sure that we comply with all the federal requirements and and the environmental requirements and such um it should not be a problem but it just takes forever to get through all the individual apartments that they go through they'll go through um the the shipo department of and they'll go through D they'll go through all the different various agencies and they go through so they're in the process of doing that that that process it can take three months it could take a a year um it really is dict it's really based on um the resources that the do applies for it um I would I would hope that with this particular project um usually the initial is is you go through the CED process before you have the the design Advanced as far as we did and they usually don't even have the permit so we have permits we have an advanced design so um we're expecting that uh that process will uh go through so um you know once we get the the get through the um CED process then the do is going to review um they'll go through their engineering review and process and and make sure that all our everything that we're doing complying with the federal requirements and then ultimately they they give us authorization to go out the bid and so that that's that's our goal ultimately is to get that authorization to go out the bid now that there is no firm date of when that is because of the of the CED determination and and even the um the doots you know their review process is just extremely slow so it's you know I can't even estimate at this point when you know you can look look at our safe route to school examples of how long they take to to get so this goes through a similar program where we're we're years ahead of that of the safe route to school program um but we we're still in that in that pipeline of of how the work is done and and I just have to be frank that um once we go out the bid it's a challenge even to to award a contract because of the Federal requirements and forms that need to be filled out you know we've rebid um you know one of the safe routes of school project three times because the contractors keep filling out the forms wrong so you know so when we say when is this Trail going to be constructed um you know we we just have to get that contract awarded and then we can make a reasonable determination of when it would be done so this this project could take a year it could take three years to to to actually see a shovel on the ground I I just you know it's hard to follow with it can't can't guarantee with the you know it's nothing with it's it's completely out of our hands it's in the hands of the dot following their Federal program and and giving us the um the authorization to bid and then the followup is is making trying to get a you know go out the bid and then actually have a responsive bid that we can award a contract so um you that's uh a general overview thank you I'm I'll turn it to the committee for questions first I have a general question first um John you have uh you know it's a dark path um can you take your cursor and show where the heart surface is versus the boardwalk yeah it's it's you're right it's hard to see but the the it starts okay it starts this is the hard path here right and then this is all Boardwalk all the way through here and then it starts up here so it's quite a bit of l l yep all those low-lying area this this is an area that that's extremely wet um we actually had to have the boardwalk elevated in this area because this is in fact a stream that flows through this area there's a stream on this here and there's a stream on this side so when we did the Hydraulics we had to model both these streams and and it was um quite an extensive perming exercise to get through and get the with the D when it goes to Nash where can go a blow up on this is this is Nash so here's here's the uh the parking lot here's the parking lot and it goes and there's a building that's here so it's right behind the building and then and it follows the tree line so it's basically following the tree line um right in this location this is this is where the skate park I mean this the skating ring is so we're right on the edge of that and then this is that is a basin in the back so we're right on the edge of that and that's where we're converting uh to the the the boardwalk at this location so it's for Nash it's really just on the on the edge of the of the park and then here just going right into the woods thank you and was it six feet or8 feet eight feet okay eight feet it's just for walking you can't bike ride or well we'll we'll set the rules but certainly we would want to people can ride a bike you know walk it across and that so you know ideally we would want it wider um but it was a challenge the do in fact would prefer to have it wider and even pay for it being wider but the DP you know restricted it you know the D in fact you know preferred to have it six foot um but we convinced them that 8 foot was more appropriate so in terms of the timeline it sound like there there's clearing going on now construction is a little bit less known um and the part that fell off for me was the pilings or the borings borings are um drilling right or removal of dirt so that you can put a footing down or some yeah we're just we're going to do we're going to do a a soil boring ident identify um the soil craphy oh okay you're not you're not setting footings oh no no no we're just doing split spons 2 inch diameter split spons taking soil so that we know exactly what the soils are they'll do blow counts to identify the resistance of the soils and determine the engineering properties of soils you know we have we have a feeling good good understanding of this area from the USDA soil survey um you know where we're going to hit uh you know more competent material you know so we based a design B currently on the uh the the soil survey which is somewhat reliable but we want to you know make sure that what we have out there so the 15 ft that Max that's clearing is on the Nash side through the whole the the both it's on both sides we're doing soil borings along along the alignment of the of the boardwalk so it's on both sides and a lot of the clearing is only um especially on the side on the Green Village side a lot of the clearing is just cutting trees out that fell that need to be moved so a driller can get the drilling through so it's it's not even clean not even cutting trees there's no large trees that to be cut um we worked it so we tried to of you know Le at least for the drilling operations uh there's no tree large trees going down it just the clearing is really being done so that the drover can get in it's just make it accessible it's not it's not it's not the final clearing for construction there's still some work to be done when they build the path but it's just it's just enough to get the drill R in okay in the document that we had you answer some questions and one of them was about sight lines um as the path exits onto Green Village Road and the it said that there was going to be clearing done there in order to enhance the sight lines correct when when is that determination going to be made or how can you talk about that process please well the deter determination has already been made that this is the location that the county prefers to have the location of the crosswalk yeah but in terms of the clearing of of whatever whatever is might be sight line obstruction or vegetation yeah we're we're clearing along the entire um area of um in front of the Town property we're clearing this this general area there's a lot of trees that just overgrowth you know there's trimming to be done and and so it's it's all along our side there there's there's clear clearing you know on the opposite side there is um you know for the most part it is open um there is there is a a tree located down here in the RightWay um a smaller tree that is proposed to be removed to to you get full sight distance on this area you can see but there is one some one tree that that is going to be removed within the RightWay so so are you going to clear the whole is that plan to clear the whole right away or 25 foot setbacks like like a house or what's the it's just within the RightWay itself it's just you know we're not clearing more than 10 ft off of off of the edge of curb you know that's that's that's you know just just enough some of it is because it's where where the Ada ramp is going to be um You probably don't need to do it all but we wanted to get as part of this project at least do the majority of it to pull those limbs back so that you know we we'll we'll probably have to do maintenance you know in a few years when this starts to overgrow again but we just want to get it cleared so for the initial project so the the path is six foot wide and what is the buffer between the path and the joining properties you know well here's here's the here's the property line right here is is going back so the right on this corner is probably the least buffer that we have it does open up here and then it comes back so in initially you know this was dictated by the D where they wanted to have it come out on this side um and initially we had the path coming out actually had it coming out over here in the center of the property and and the county with their meeting with them where they would prefer to have the crosswalk we ended up shifting it over so we are closer to the property line here 30 it's probably around 30 feet from this these two points and then then it opens up substantially on the far side okay so it's it's greater than normal set 30 yeah 30 ft for a side yeah okay any other questions from the committee one more about on the Nash side the uh the boardwalk's elevated and it looks as if that the severe there's a severe grade change from the upper ice rank to the lower ice Rank and uh that's exactly where the forw walk transition happens yeah so yeah so okay you can actually see yeah you can actually see the grades here but yeah so there will be okay yeah because this is this is where the Basin starts so you can actually see with a great is any transition so so what's the average height of the boardwalk then I mean I can imagine there it's going to be substantial um no it it well we're dictating it to be uh above where where the bottom of the um the court is one foot above the flood Hazard area so when you have a a flood Hazard area is is is 20% above the uh 100-year um flood plane so uh we have a free board but just uh you know over here the board gets very narrow or very shallow it's just with the transition be very close but but specifically there at Nash Ian if it goes down the hill you can't have a boardwalk going at a severe grade like that obviously yeah it's I think we have it at a 5% grade is the maximum grade that we have just that transition so so at that transition you might have a 4 foot elevation or something oh yeah yeah that's at that one location yeah we we have in some areas when it goes across the actual um there there's this area okay so the center this this where it's Crossing this area here this is where it's the highest um because the grade actually does come up in this area for for the flood Hazard but this this is areas where this is the most low-lying area that we have in the pad so there it may be three or four feet above the uh ground surface in that location okay there's no more questions from the committee we'll reopen the public hearing and the same rules apply that were shared earlier call hagner ha N River Road um thanks John for going through that um exactly um just I guess uh just to help me a little bit more understand John on the I appreciate that the road's a County Road and you have discussed it with the county right the crosswalk area yes um so the first question is that chadam Township according to your responses right is responsible for putting the markings down on the road which obviously isn't terribly costly but the county saying that they'll eventually link it up right into some sort of County Park system but I mean to be quite honest and unless you guys at least I guess my question sorted to the committee unless we know we have commitment it seems a little bit concerning to me at least that we would have a park uh you know a trail that would go across a crosswalk to Nowhere if they really don't ever come through and put their sidewalk in or even do something on the Miller's property that apparently they've acquired right so I would expect maybe some guarantee there because why would we spend the money or do this to have a crosswalk go to Nowhere very good question I don't want to do it back and forth so I'll ask you ask all questions okay so that's one question just trying to understand what kind of commitment we have from the county on that um specific to um I I know you didn't do all the numbers but it would be a little bit um could you help me understand what is considered adequate site distance in this area for a mid block you say it reaches dot standards but what what's adequate I mean is it the minimum standard you're following what is that number yeah you have to have a sight distance of of just based on this the um the speed limit and so you have to have a 305 ft sight distance so when you're standing on the um ada8 ramp before you step into the roadway you have to be able to see 305 ft okay I mean I guess I would argue I don't think you can see 305 ft after being on that road looking down um that it's doesn't meet that standard well I can I can just say that the counties you know will verify everything we have you know we have a survey map that we did to show that it is um but you know the cross being the the safety associated with the crosswalk is is an ultimate concern and you know we're not we're not you know being treating that I'm sorry go through the questions Sor let go through the question yeah yeah okay sorry we weren't to back for okay so I so I guess really understanding what that standard is and what it's meeting I mean there's no um I know the drawings were provided but there's really markings or numbers to really understand what that is um a little bit surprising that um the township uh tra traffic safety officer wasn't even included in this because I do appreciate it's a county road but I would have expected that at least our Township you know traffic safety officer would have been included in the assessment um we know our local roads and we would I would think that we would at least have the ability to also review that um from that perspective um the 15 foot clearing I have another question on that when you're saying 15 ft is it 15 ft beyond the 8 ft so or is that inclusive of the 8 foots so like how much are we really clearing because I guess to Stacy's comment on the one side you are clearing quite a bit of buffer and um at least for the residents thereafter what kind of privacy or reassurances that they have that it'll be brought back to sort of the normal natural um privacy that they have today um the clearing I know um uh Mr Lloyd had commented on also some clearing on the road um I think again just as much as we could have that visit at the site to really understand that clearing because um in some cases that would be clearing potentially property owners landscaping that they've already installed there in that 10- foot right away do you understand what I'm saying Stacy I'm saying it sounds like the clearing that they're doing to make the site distance is probably clearing Landscaping on people property potentially okay I thought we had a 30 foot buffer but okay well I but I know I mean I appreciate residents don't always understand what the easement rights are so we do do plantings it's the same thing when we try to put in sidewalks right sometimes it's on there just to understand um at least for the residents out there what would actually be cleared I know I know sorry thank thank you wait for all the questions and then address them no it's okay you could that was a lot if you want to go ahead and address those we'll have the next person up okay fair enough we'll see how that goes I might change my mind yeah is there clearing on the RightWay of neighbors there I did identify there's one tree that that is recommended that's in the RightWay and it's just close to the edge of Road and and so that is something that's uh is is recommended to be removed um the first comment was regarding the uh commitment from the county um I'm not aware of of that um they've actually given a commitment on what actually went when their time frame is um I know when they um certainly they're supportive of the project because they actually gave us the design Grant um I think they recognized even when we had the design grant that a million dollar project was never going to happen with local funding it would only happen with um uh you know Federal funding happening they make this Trail constructed and I know that the the counties had um you know more and more interest regarding what they were doing on on their property once we secured that um that Federal grant um I know that they um they they've actually represented to the administrator and I that that they were going to step up um to secure an easement on for their portion of the property I think they were approach they approached um The Millers and then they also approached the property owner the property owner adjacent to the Millers so you know they have shown that they are moving forward with their portion it's didn't seem like the communication's there um and I believe they're in negotiations right now I believe they even purchase the Miller property so that that's all part of their process and their commitment to to take it to the next step so um you know I'm sure that the committee can certainly reach out to the C County and get a a more affirmative date or something from them I think they' be more than willing to to offer that um the sidewalk standards it's um they're dictated by um the dot standards and then also Morris County standards they have specific design standards that that have to be met um they are um you know the the approval is is you know they have their engineering department that's going to review it and and and ultimately uh issue a Road opening permit they have um typically don't obtain a Road opening permit now because you actually have it has to be taken out by the contractor that does the work um so that's why we don't have a a Road opening permit from them but with every project that we do on the uh on a County Road even with the ada8 project that we're just doing we we we work with them from the very beginning of of a project concept to to the final design and and they give their um approval you know at least from the engineering department giving us assurance that they're going to issue a permit to the contractor once we secure the contractor so we work hand inand with the county through through the entire process and and also there's going to be even a third party reviewing the site distance and and uh the do is going to uh certainly review it as part of their process and they're going to be looking at the survey that was done site distance that's being representative so there are two agencies that are going to be in fact reviewing that this this the sidewalk construction and making sure that it meets appropriate standards um the 15 foot clearing is total that that includes the pth so so we're clearing just a minimal amount um you know the intent of the path is to keep it as natural as possible we we we did not want to have massive clearing we're trying to preserve the land as much as possible so and in fact some of the uh locations that we the alignment we were even looking at um you know moving the alignment even you can see on on this end we were trying to move it with a little jog here was probably saving some trees to eliminate that um the boardwalk um you there are any substantial trees in this general area and and we didn't necessar Boardwalk is more difficult to to have a jog in it so we wanted that generally have the boardwalk with with straight runs and so um you know we did do an alignment because we had such a narrow path we were able to shift it in order to try to minimize the amount of larger trees you know not not only to preserve the trees but it's a cost associated with removing a tree it's not cheap so um but the it is a 15ot clearance that that uh we are doing and and um for the most part if you if you look on the opposite side of Green Village you can see when the develop part parts of all the properties here you know they have a nice front yard it's open um when you look at the Town property has had any maintenance to it whatsoever so we we've just you know the the woods have eventally encroached or almost right into the RightWay so the intent is is to to clean up that RightWay and right and within the RightWay at 10 foot off the curve line and just clean that area up so that uh when you step out um you're just you're not you're not stepping out from the woods automatically there's going to be an area where people actually see you even before you get to um the the the U the ada8 ramp that that uh is the is the point where you start crossing the road and so there is a a tree that's located I believe in this vendra vicinity that that is is proposed to be removed the rest of this is all low-lying vegetation you can see through it so we do have the site distance going over but there's a tree in this location that was identified the county identified as the need to be removed I think I those site distes are established by survey yeah survey yeah they're established by survey yeah you the whole Road was survey okay um any other questions and I think I will you know now ask for all the questions and and then we'll have John Answer it'll just make things move a little faster come on up Robert orphin ort man 365 and 355 Green Village Road so uh if I might yeah yeah I live here with my family and I have this house that I rent here MH and I think I think the meurs might be off a little because I saw where you guys put the plastic Flags through the woods and it's coming kind of close on 355 on the back corner as you mentioned um and and uh I don't know how safe sorry I don't know how safe as in a personal opinion um these sight lines are because I almost die every time I come out of my driveway and I look at these sight lines both left and right um so I would love some more I mean you've been wonderful on giving us detail now which I'm kind of surprised that we're talking in such detail about this now when we're so far into this plan it seems um but I really really would love to have the committee and whoever else the chief whoever any anybody come and and actually walk walk from here all the way through because we're going to need a boat we're going to need a traffic officer um and we might see some Wildlife that probably shouldn't be disturbed really quite honestly um so I'm just I'm just I'm just kind of surprised that that we're I understand when you get a grant you either use it or lose it right I'm really surprised that we're not using this money on phont Avenue or all these roads that are terrible in town but we're making a quarter mile Boardwalk path that could disturb Wildlife that could possibly not even get done maybe 10% 5% because it's too wet we're going to bore sample of course um but to a a land of nowhere where we get from the T of the county there's a potential for a park a parking lot and a communal bathroom so making it personal again it's between my two properties which is just going to tear through and there's my safety privacy and everything which that's personal but then I might be living across the street from a parking lot and a bathroom which the township says it's the county the county says it's the township and here we are trying to get clarity today um I mean I have a million more questions but probably not going to get it all out in three minutes um those are the most important things sight lines pedestrian safety Traffic Safety household safety um wildlife and can't we just go through does it make more sense to go from Nashville do a bathroom there maybe use those walkways that come through the apartments and come up to Mel Melrose and cross the street there and then go out into the woods where there's already a path it's already there I know I mentioned that last time I was here but it just doesn't make sense all this for that much when there's so many other things to do and yes it is slightly personal I get it but it it just really it doesn't make sense to me the whole thing and I think there's more to it not saying that we haven't turned over every leaf or rock or stone but I just think there's there's more more things to it than than this thank you again thank you guys for your time and feel free if you didn't get through your questions to send them in you know thank you very much thank you hi I'm Doug I live in green h l John I'm wondering I don't know if you guys have really Tak into account how wet this is that here yes that is it doesn't dry up in summer I up there 55 years AE here it doesn't dry out how you going get a machine there that's going to be a major disturbance so B's got a lot of valid points there so that's really all I have right now thank you curring 365 Ring vage Road to um add to Roberts let me just took a couple notes um number one will we have access to these plants oh sorry okay um B my tongue um if so would request that we receive them um what type of fencing will be installed if this project does move forward um when closed what deters people from walking on the path is there going to be a lock is there going to be something for our safety obviously we have a family there it's obviously affecting us um so that's a big concern of mine and Al people seeing simply through our house yard our privacy we've Liv there we've enjoyed the reason I moved to Green Village with my child is because of the privacy and now we're losing that so that's a big concern of ours um so that's pretty much it thank you thank you did we have any other questions anything on Zoom yes take the rest of the questions and then we'll ask Stuart hi my name is Stuart Carr c from three Crestwood Drive in chadam Township I do not live anywhere near Green Village Road Crestwood Drive is a mile and a half away two miles away uh I agree frankly with the uh last three or four folks from Green Village Road area I don't think that there's a need notwithstanding that we have have it in the master plan to cut through a substantial wetlands area and disturb wildlife and all kinds of other things when we could simply go around through the apartments and get back on Green Village Road that way it's very nice it's kind of like the tail wagon the dog we had this grant like the gentleman said so let's spend the money I think again even though we can't repurpose it for something else it's better I think to just give the money back and at the worst case have a dirt Trail as opposed to maadam for the two ends of it and do that so it's something like the Great Swamp outdoor education center type of convention versus the lean reservation where everything is just Madam because at some point you have Madam you may end up with bikes and all kinds of other stuff through there even though you have the uh you know the walkway so on the one hand I like the idea Trails but uh to Mr H's point with all the wetlands and everything they're in there I think the downside of disturbing that Wetlands disturbing that area greatly outweighs the convenience and ab absolutely the Back To Nature upside of being able to walk through there we got the Great Swamp outdoor education center we have you know miles and miles on lanica reservation for this small portion let's walk around Southern Boulevard around Hickory uh tree or hickory Place whatever it is and get back on Green Village and if we need to deal with safety on Green Village let's do a sidewalks program or something on Green Village or a safety program on Green Village Road to connect with lean reservation that way as opposed to cutting through a substantial wetland right here because again it is a terrific resource if we cut it up a little bit it's Death By A Thousand Cuts so again I think if we can reconsider this not withstand do a Rick Scott in Florida send the money back to the feds and say look thanks but no thanks or again at the extreme just do it where we have a dirt path only so um and the final question or comment on that is U Mr rush if you can indicate roughly what the total amount is I think you said somewhere around a quarter of a mile about how many feet is the path and how the um uh wood and approximately how many feet at each end will be the maadam thank you and thanks again for your time and consideration on this thank you any other questions online okay okay I'm going to close the public hearing for the uh Green Village connector Trail and John I'll ask you to finish to answer those questions okay um the first question was related to the number of flags that are out there and um you know I have to say the um there's a lot of flags out there because we flagged all the wetlands we flagged the alignment we flagged the limit of the clearing that we were directing to the contractor so um I I think I'd have to defer to um anyone can to defer to the plan regarding you know um you know what what the uh true alignment is going to be I don't think you can get really a true representation of unless you know know exactly what that flag is you can't get a real true representation of what it what is going so I S Suggest to just review the plans um the plans um are posted on the we on the website it's under engineering um however I think the link isn't working today but yeah there's a notice just for the benefit of the public the website has been migrating over to new provider so uh any files that are not available there if the link is there you can just email us and we will send them to you until they're uploaded so they are they are they are online um the site distance um again I I I believe I I've already responded to that regarding the the site distance um the funding the funding is through a a federal program um it's a very competitive program and the the the the program that we went through um it it does not um apply the sidewalk so this and even if we wanted to it just completely out of the program to uh support a sidewalk project so that would that would have to be a different funding program to go through that um there really isn't uh when when you're applying for this uh the grant it's a very competitive program it's it's a national program and the do does not entertain taking the funds and applying it to somewhere else because it's just unfair to someone else who had another project that that was considered you know the project was evaluated on on spec you know the grant was given specifically for a a project project which Justified getting the funds so um they would not allow that to uh to change over um Melrose Melrose is a private road so we did not uh look at um encroaching onto um the that private property we we were the proposal was to keep it within Township property um the soils are extremely wet that's why we have a boardwalk um that's that's um being uh constructed and and uh it's very similar to the conditions that uh if you go to the Great Swamp Watershed the the uh The Refuge their their park you can walk out on this on the similar um boardwalks that are there and in fact I even consulted with the US fish and wildlife uh you know talking to them regarding construction methods who their contractors that bid on their projects and and just got some insight regarding you know the the uh means and methods that were used for the construction on those those Trails um Wildlife the um this project was reviewed extensively through US Vision wildlife and New Jersey fish and wildlife and and we have a whole host of of restrictions on on timing and such of what we can and can't do with the construction of of of the of the U of the project so it it is highly regulated and there's a lot of sensitivity regarding uh you know wildlife in the area um one of the um interest of of the um of this you know pathway was you know agree or disagree but it was actually trying to get you know more in access to a very prestine area that that you know allows the public to really appreciate you know the the the wetlands and the wildlife that's there so that's the kind of one of the one of the goals of the project was the fact to get that interaction um I addressed access to the pl um fencing there is no fencing proposed uh on the township property um the county has indicated um when they were proposing an easement either on The Millers or the adjoining property they were going to install fencing I don't know if if they are are going to continue offer fencing or what they do I don't know their proposed plans but we can certainly express interest um the county has been very open to suggestions on the Improvement so if that cly reach out to them um uh locking and closing the trail I it's something that um has not been um you know finalized regarding if in fact um it's going to be closed at night or if it's just going to be regulated the same way with um with any you know Park property that the township owns it's uh you know so that's something you just work out with uh administratively how we regulate that I think if if there it does become an issue or a problem you know the at least we'll pull in and see how we we mitigate any any concerns or issues that that come out with the with the park um and the asphalt surface um that was actually a requirement of of the county um they wanted that as part of of the uh you know Bas of the design when they offered the grant um initially we were proposing a gravel surface similar to what the US fish and wildlife does and that that's something that uh we certainly go back and talk to the county again if if the committee has an interest of you know initially that's what we wanted to have it similar very similar to fishing Wildlife what they had um we can we can revisit that and see if that's something that we want to entertain um I think the do wouldn't have a problem with that and I don't even think we have to go back to the D with any permitting so the asphalt surface we can certainly revisit that with the county but that was something that they were adamant on um when we went for the design assistance grant that that they wanted to have that as being asphalt surface um and the length and details I I don't have that off hand um again the plans are located um on will be located eventually online that we can the link isn't working but it will be um andent essentially we have the you'll see that there's a stationing associated with it and the stationing is every 100 feet so you can you can see exactly the uh the dimensions and the layout and and everything is online that you can see so I think I addressed all the questions from everything I have it's approximately a mile right yeah y That's a mile okay um okay unfortunately we have a pack schedule so we have to move on um I am I am fine with doing a site visit at some point maybe we'll plan when that's appropriate um depending on you know how far along we are but I'm yeah I'm F okay thank [Music] you okay I'm debating we go to finance thank you there are a couple other things under engineering oh okay I'll try I'll try to be quick okay yeah the first one um before we get to the report so we the trail there is uh to the road repaving uh we started talking about that at the last Workshop meeting you know that there were some folks that went out and did a visit of the location as well and um yeah just wanted to finalize that so yeah yeah there was at the last uh meeting we've identified uh four additional roads basically a neighborhood to include included Gates Mitchell garden and and Conger um those Paving those milling and Paving those roads would add an additional $132,000 um the original estimate and recommended budget for Paving this year was 398,000 um this would bring it up to 530,000 and we budgeted 500,000 right in the capital plan correct we did have 500 uh initially we haven't adopted the capital budget but that was is tentative what we were expecting I mean uh the next meeting we are going to be talking about an intersection upgrade safety upgrade over at uh River and uh where is it uh the chief will be speaking about which is a county intersection so that's going to cost us about 100 to 150,000 so that's where you know we put in a little bit more into the roads budget for these kinds of things things that come up that are not necess directly road paving but Road related so curving uh sidewalk repairs things like that so you I i' recommend that we stay on The Prudent side of things and and keep to the lower end and uh but that's your decision sorry you lost me I thought you were going in a different I thought you were trying to say there was room in the other 150,000 you had to set aside no there's a cushion so you know the 500's there there's a cushion because you never know what ends up happening with the prices when we actually go out plus there's other things that come up throughout the year related to the road so the 500 is not just the road paving but roads and other related matters so the next meeting the police chief is going to be speaking here he's going to uh be talking about an intersection that needs upgrade the traffic signal over there needs upgrade and that's a county agreement that they would enter into so we'd need about1 to $150,000 for that as well so that would come from this 500 if it was available so we're saying 500 you're saying 132,000 over or we hit 532,000 just on road ping but we budgeted 500,000 includes that's what we anticipated we didn't budget it yet so in the capital presentation the capital plan but when you were thinking about interests yes you know it was 500 it was based on 500 correct okay correct so this would be over that um and not really allow for a cushion for other things okay and Gates was the one that was was like number two in terms of needing to get done Mitchell was a much better better shape but still lower it would have creeped up I I think um you know if if this is not paav this year certainly I could see that being you know next year next year but um but yeah but the only two roads that are in better shape is garden and Conger and um you know I I would think that um we're going to regret not doing those if we do the whole neighborhood and not do those roads they're relatively minor roads and um and certainly on Garden there is an issue over there regarding um the road is extremely flat and we could try to improve some of the flat area that floods um get the water the move by Milling the road a little differently and so it's something that uh hear a lot of negative feedback on that we don't do too okay um I'm just wondering if we want to go through the capital plan and we can decide but either way this is Workshop so we're figuring out yeah I mean it'll inform Capital the um you know the question is do we stick to the original draft or the you know updated draft okay have a question on road pavement for 2024 and John when do you need an answer on that you know always the sooner the better so we can line the paving up rich yeah we want to award the contract yeah because it's it's it's not just award in the contract DPW needs to you know and I've already told them the roads that we're doing but they do prep work you know this is not something that we just get a contract day they work on the basins they do repairs throughout the road and they prep the road and get it ready that we have Mill and pave and and uh you know the um the later we go we we it's harder and harder to get it you know we we like to do it in July and August when you know summer's out um but it's hard that's when every town wants to do it so it's it's it's you know the sooner we can get on the contractor schedule the better okay um and was the J anything else you Morris County Trail construction Grant uh the county did send the letter to everybody I think made sure to try and include that in this agenda packet get some ideas from you normally you know as you heard from the Greenville connector trailer we look to the master plan we look to other documents that guide where we want to go um but you I know that everybody wants to have uh some input into things like this so we wanted to open the conversation to the government body to see if you had some ideas if I if I can just give just one you know suggestion is that um the Morris County Trails Grant has has turned into a very complicated process I can I can I can spend a couple hundred dollars and get a million dollars from the dot and now it takes thousands of dollars to get something from the uh from Morris County on these Trails it's a very extensive process of meeting in the field and multiple meetings and and and just the paperwork that they required is very extensive and um they they've made it clear last year they they've had well over $2 million to give out and they denied multiple applications um because they weren't 100% bid ready and uh all the permits obtained and so I I I just I would discourage submitting an application for construction um without having the plans 100% um and and the county um it basically says you're done you're ready to submit the grant you know we have um we did receive it design assistance grant um for the phase 2 Hillside um we submitted that last year and the county didn't um provide uh didn't we didn't get a grant um and in fact um I I've submitted grants the prior years to Morris County which the design wasn't even further further along and we've gotten Construction Grants and so you know they really made it clear that they want these these construction plans would be 100% if you're asking for construction and so um we we have have the hillside um set of drawings they um we the county um provided comments on those I've I've made all those revisions and I've been waiting for months to hear back from them regarding um you know the the final revisions on that so um so unless we have a um you know clear approval from the county on the hillside plans I would say we may want to Target that to be a 2025 project versus 2024 maybe you know we can pull us that together at the at the very end but um that that that's what I'm I'm projecting is that it's going to be more of a 20125 project so so really they offer design Assistance or they provide um construction and for construction it has to be 100% 100% permitted everything if you're going to go for a construction Grant so really we may want to wait and see if Hillside can be Advanced that they approve it before we apply um because I don't want to waste the money I don't want to go through this process again only for them to deny it because they they they haven't uh you know approved the plans um or we consider another alternative uh Trail and go for another design assistance for design assistance we can assistance thank you so you're recommending that we don't submit anything because we don't have anything that's really construction ready from a construction from a construction Grant you know I I I wouldn't I don't want to go through the I wouldn't recommend going through that whole process again just to get denied because you know the county has not you know is not approved the plan yet okay and we and we just recently were pushing them and then actually they apologize for not getting back to us and they were actually going to have the supervisor look at the plans to try and get back to us but you know I just until they get back to us and tell us that the plans are are ready you know that's I just don't want to misrepresent I don't want to apply the grant we don't get it again and say what's going on what's going doing wrong you know I'm just tell you up front that uh I just the writing's on the wall that they want the plans to be 100% when is the grand convention due I think July is the initial intent it might have been sooner maybe June is the initial intent that you have to identify a project and then the actual see is you have to just ident make an intent make a letter of intent and then you actually have the full application goes and it follows it and then there's a whole another process after that and so it's just a lot application du July 31st letter in 10 June 28th no so if they surprised you and turned it around because the supervisor now we're still not ready still not ready so you know so if we can get this done by June 30th and 11 and 10th then this may be the project we want to submit but um unless we have the dot uh the the Morris County blessing the plan saying yeah you're ready and and uh you know then we then we should submit okay uh from a design perspective were there any suggestions you had or does anybody else have anything of interest from the design perspective TR I don't have nothing at the moment you maybe something that we want to reach out the open space maybe their group may want to consider something or proposing I I I would strongly suggest that we contact open space something them have something to do with it and Historical Society too because this Trail basically comes from their parking lot right and it follows the old Snake Hill does and it must Meander the way the old Snake Hill yeah this this this this phase two um connects the phase one Trail in two different locations one at the at the schoolhouse and then the other one at the intersection of of River Road and Hillside right there that you can go in so ultimately it does connect with um chadam Glenn that whole chat sidewalk network is connected to the uh the Toll Brother Project and now it's connected to here so it's we're getting cognitivity with with it but it would be nice if the Historical Society could you know think about maybe some sort of a a a placard or something descriptive you know I mean I just put our people to you know to use I mean there as a absolutely get get them involved in it agree and then hopefully we can avoid you know like what we had tonight with Green Village connector the more people we involve the more we can reflect on well just so I'm clear that you the question was about design submission trail design submission so we could definitely get them involved but the historical society is with respect to phase two which is already designed and we have to we're waiting to see before it's done before the design is ready can touch Bas with them make sure they think they're aware yeah that's what oh they get people coming by some traffic so let's get proponents as opposed to opponents um yeah at this point I don't have a a recommendation that might defer to the open space or other other you know departments to or groups to look at open space is set to meet the end of the month this one okay thank you yeah and it's only for Trails it it does not the grant will not cover any sidewalks right it's just Trails okay so you'll bring that back to open space sure thank you wonderful okay any other questions on my report or anything I'm in front of I just out I one question on the report just regarding Colony pool it's in the report it says Colony Pool Engineering work has begun for the wall but we um I I don't know what stage that puts us at but we just we wanted a chance to have an input I think this committee decided want to have the chance to have an input of Just The Colony pool to meet and that's scheduled for tomorrow just to have um some input onto okay I think the general design based on the feedback that the committee from the last meeting the the um the thought was to change the slope walls to Vertical walls and and make them deeper at the point where so that if you ever wanted to accommodate um you putting a concrete floor in or or other changes in that location we can accommodate it so that's the basic um design change or concept that we're doing if so if you could just get their feedback on that that's I will the only other thing I like just about that is like we have six Lanes now but also kind of a half Lane because of the slope wall so that would put us to seven lanes and then there's elimination of stairs and then ladder so I don't know yeah those details it's detailed stuff but people that use the club all the time might have some thought about that yeah I I think we we're definitely will have a preliminary set of drawings you know going in and those type of details are good just to get it before it finalized but that but that's the major change is going from a vertical wall and that would just open that up to allow it to accommodate and make it safer some of those the soils you know going down that slope is kind of can be challenging at times absolutely it's particularly dangerous for visitors because we have a whole visiting team and then they're climbing the wall because they don't they're not familiar with yeah so we can have we can have multiple ladders and things like that no diving off you know what you typically see at a poll so very good thank you okay okay Finance be a chunk of time yeah um thank you John you all right let's do uh Finance so we can get through you want to start with the resolution or the capital presentation first oh let's get through the rest first and then we'll do the capital presentation okay um the first item uh under Finance it's listed there is a uh ordinance not much Det on it but I'll I'll explain it's pretty easy we have uh in section 269 a uh an ordinance on the Cooperative pricing agreement uh with Cranford it's just part of my review of ordinances and cleanup with Greg and other department heads so this one we're just looking to repeal this ordinance it's a simple one um we don't need to have ordinances that detail these that's not really typical practice and also it's out of date and every time we join a co-op we do it by resolution uh and so this whole section 269 could be eliminated so that's what we're proposing for the next meeting okay um next one is uh cancellation of our bond authorization um this is Bond authorization we're referring to is the one for the fensky property um as I mentioned originally when we introduced it that it was there as uh as sort of a backup to make sure we had that that tool available to us if we need it um we didn't review the with the finance committee if I then say so and um after review with Debbie and I um and looking at our cash flow for the open space fund and you know future projections uh we don't need that Bond authorization we have the cash on hand to make that payment uh so we are proposing that we adopt a resolution to cancel that Bond authorization and we would pay that all out of the open space fond okay any questions the next one is a resolution art purchasing policy and procedures manual uh last time this was updated I believe it was in 2014 so we uh we Debbie and Ed did a great job on uh updating refreshing that two things uh with it one it reflects practices that we've instituted that are best practices that are reflective of some of the changes that we've made both with the purchase orders requisitions our use of admins and also updating it to reflect uh changes in the public contracts law in the um uh you know the procurement card uh process uh the budget cycle all these things uh and Debbie and Ed captured all that in writing I would say you know the 2014 manual could just kind of be ignored and this was a fresh fresh start on on everything um it's got some quick reference guides both for employees and for for you this is a great document for you to have um so that it has the force of the governing body and this is what you do you adopt the policy we're recommending this manual to you uh it has been reviewed by the finance committee um and Debbie is there anything else you want to add to it no there was a new change to one of the um for the public purchasing the claimant certification we can eliminate that on a purchase order um and that is something another resolution that we're going to adopt so that we can incorporate that into the policy it'll make the process of payment faster there are a couple exclusions um that the state requires well providers we still need a claim in certification and any individual employee for reimbursements um so and then anything else we determine that we would want a signature we can still declare that we get the signature from the claim so that that changes in this draft um so we'd like to incorporate it in this manual by way of adoption of the manual and then by state law we have to do resolution to make that change on the claim signature portion so uh improves efficiency and the office cuts down on a lot of paperwork of department heads and the finance department have can track down vendors for the signature um and uh you know cuts down on that and also just uh makes it a faster process to get the bill play to the vendor because there's been times where you know two three months go and we're waiting on a vendor to get us that signature we don't really need it uh but we need it because that's how our current policy is and we haven't done a resolution to wave that okay any questions okay uh and then finally on sorry banking services um Debbie's been great in in helping with this we've met with uh three Banks uh our incumbent was one of them we reviewed a uh I'm sorry finance committee did you have anything on the claim signature of person imposs manual yeah okay sorry um banking Serv so we met with three Banks over the last couple months um really negotiated quite quite uh vigorously with them and we've gone from what's our current average interest rate uh we were below 4% when we started this project um and now currently we are at 4.6 which uh is also being locked in uh until the second rate drop by the FED as well and uh we're getting some uh additional bonuses one thing that's been a point for me is to get us Courier Service um so armored car service which we'll be getting three times a week out of the bank now at no cost to us as well which helps you in terms of security because right now an employee is going making the deposit leaving town so not only is it a safety issue a security issue and also um uh saves that employee from have you know from having to leave their desk for however long they have to do to take care of that so all around I think it's a win and uh we're getting U check capture devices as well so that way checks can be remotely scanned and deposited immediately as well which also helps uh with accuracy and efficiency too so um it's been something that since I got here I mentioned to Debbie day one of what we haven't done a banking RFP so we we started the negotiations to see if we'd get something good we did we presented the options to the finance committee and uh correct you're endorsing our our switch so we would be staying with TD Bank and uh misson is preparing a resolution and uh agreement with them to memorialize these terms okay any questions okay um got a report yeah if anybody has any questions on the finance committee report for April and if not we'll move to the capital presentation doesn't work that come over here all right um mayor committee thank you um this is the I think the first type of uh Capital presentation that the governing body has probably gotten on something like this um and I want to thank the finance committee as well for uh a little closer there we go all right uh I want to thank the finance committee which is Deputy Mayor Micha Choy committee War J Roland and uh our CFO Debbie King Debbie as always is a wealth of knowledge and does a great job uh responding to any requests for information and preparing reports that are needed uh and she was a big help in in putting this plan together this is going to go over the seven-year Capital plan which was outlined in our operating in our budget that you adopted last month but goes into a little bit more detail on that and gives you uh first a snapshot because I think it's important to understand our current debt situation we have about $18 million in debt currently outstanding uh that is made up of a 2013 Bond a 2022 Bond and a 2023 note that last uh document that note is uh the affordable housing almost 1.5 million or so that's what makes up that last note so we just rolled that over actually fairly recently um but that's uh counted in this outstanding debt we have Bond principle in the amount of approximately $800,000 bond interest in the amount of 527,000 and ban interest in 115 now 115 is from that note that uh I just spoke about so uh that is how we you know it changes year to year based on the Deb schedule that that tracks but that is what makes up our uh approximate annual payments for a Debt Service in the operating budget every year and this is just talking about General capital and uh affordable housing obligations this is not talking about the open space fund or WPC um in both cases we do well WPC that's a self-liquidating utility uh we don't really have any issues there in terms of uh you know affecting taxes or changing the rate and then same thing with our open space fund it's set at 2% unless the governing body takes action to to decrease it and um we to the extent possible as long as it's 2% we we fulfill our obligations from an operating perspective but then also try to pay down whatever debt we have or eliminate the options of debt if we don't need them Mr sh it's two cents right two cents two cents correct yeah y just for the public because it sound like 2% sense sense correct um so Capital financing um as part of that process both during the uh budget review and then as we put this together um we look at what our existing capital accounts currently have in them and as of uh just today we've got about $1 million do in existing capital accounts now uh it's important to note that these existing capital accounts is not just it's money sitting there with nothing to do um in many cases it's part of ongoing or incompleted projects things like Road Paving projects uh take for example the municipal roof um work over at the tennis courts all these kinds of things that are uh still not closed out uh or they're maybe in the design phase they're in the contract award phase or John's building the design specs for them so the money is is there for that use and in order for us to award contracts that funding has to be available so that way Debbie uh can issue a certificate of available funds and you can authoriz that resolution to make that award so we do have about a million dollars there anything that uh was earmarked and let's say uh that project is completed that's where we tap into first before looking to authorize more debt or appropriate more money in the capital Improvement fund for project we look at what do we have in existing capital accounts we do that annually and we also uh if there are accounts that are very old we will cancel those out or reallocate them uh the capital reserve has just about $30,000 in it and that is dedicated already uh the capital fund balance uh started out with about 425,000 and it's down to about 22,000 this year based off of our budget that is um $100,000 going to revenue for the current budget and 303,000 went into that made up that money from that cancelled debt for affordable housing uh believe it was last year that was what made the you know 1 .9 million we needed down to about 1.5 so that's coming out of the capital fund balance and then our Capital Improvement fund this year as part of the budget that you adopted that uh appropriated $900,000 there and then finally you know we would issue debt in cases where through those things above there isn't enough money to meet the capital plan um so Capital planning uh I say this is a new formal process that we started last year getting everybody used to this getting them involved in this uh in this process um it applies to both our general budget our open space and our WPC uh the Water Pollution Control that's our sewer utility so depending on what that use is it's allocated to those under General and those are the the items I listed below uh we categorize them under Administration engineering Public Works parks and wreck police and fire um and I I put these buckets you know the C the item or the um the requests under these categories but this is just really an internal mechanism there's no guidelines on this but you know Administration you'll see in our budget you know put things like affordable housing is where you know where else would to go all these sort of Catal items would fall under Administration uh anything like special requests uh you know maybe the library again we'd stick that under Administration um so here's a seven-year Outlook this was the Top Line um where it says Capital requests year by year that was what was in the operating in the budget that you adopted uh the numbers have adjusted slightly in this document from that budget um every year again because that's just a planning tool it's not set in stone it's not firm you adopt it you're just coming up with estimates this is uh a more current review after the department heads gave it I think what a third look right a third third look third attempt at fine-tuning it so you'll see from 24 to 23 what the capital requests are CIF and DP that's our Capital Improvement fund and down payment so there this is there's an asterisk there because that's an assumption that we're making obviously we don't know what future budgets look like but the assumption is that there's $800,000 appropriated in each year in that budget uh which would account for into the capital Improvement fund which would account for either all the projects if you could do them which is what we did in 2023 everything uh fit under Capital Improvement fund or it would be used for a down payment as well if we were expecting that we were going to issue debt so whatever you would be paying out of cash would be reduced by the amount of the down payment that would be required for any uh issuance of debt so you'll see that math subtracting the 800 across the board and that's what we're talking about here in that new debt row uh of what we're expecting that new debt would be issued that's minus the um minus the down payment and whatever is available and the capit Improvement fund the debt payments row is um based on a great calculation Debbie put together a very comprehensive spreadsheet form me that put together sort of hypothetical of if you were issuing bands uh based off of these numbers what the uh the current what we under our current obligations for outstanding debt plus new debt that will be issued what those debt payments would look like year after year so that final line shows you what that Delta is in terms of just the debt payments year to year that debt payment is what goes into the capital budget I'm sorry into the operating budget which is also what impacts taxes and our Appropriations so you'll see you know 2024 for example there's a assuming that the capital plan we're talking about is uh implemented an increase of $120,000 uh in debt payments over the previous year and you'll see that carry on and in some areas that increase is less because what we've requested in the capital or what's being requested by the different department heads is a smaller amount um and I'll go into those in just a second I do want to mention also that um in this the capital request the department has to do the best they can uh to come up with cost estimates but between now and 2028 2029 market conditions change costs can go up so this does not account for what those potentials might be the cost of a vehicle going up the cost of any piece of equipment uh and this also assumes ban issuance so in ban ban Bond anticipation notes that is uh payments are only being made on interest um anything so far Debbie that do you want to add uh interest only for the first three years following that you have to then uh make a payment on principal and it's a calculation that's formulated um two times the useful life minus one into your debt um and so that would be piece that would become part of our debt service for those years so every year um that new debt has three years then the following year that debt has three years so each one has its own calculation it's not the full debt it's each of the ordinances separately so there there's a number of assumptions here that obviously based on you know she said life and all these different that you can't really you know come up with an exact figure but we tried our best to to put a projection together here so uh going through 2024 right broke down that portion of it to the left that's the slice of the part the the chart before um this is what makes up and these are rounded but this is what makes up uh that Capital request what you'll see here are some of the the larger items which is why this is that kind of sharp Peak uh in that seven-year plan uh we've got $300,000 in additional affordable housing obligations that we have to meet for developers agreement uh that's the uh group homes on River Road uh we've got got two apparatus uh vehicle two apparatus for the fire departments totally about three and a quarter now we did apply for grants for those uh but there's no certainty we're going to get them and uh we also want to plan for those in in the event that we don't get those but in order for the Departments to go ahead and make that selection and for us to make the award of a contract we have to have that appropriation made so Debbie can do a certificate available funding with all of this stuff here just because the appropriation has been made it doesn't mean we're actually going out to borrow it right then and there that's simply the authorization so we don't have to borrow that full amount all right away um we could you know depending on what the the structure of that contract is in some cases you're just making a down payment maybe initial deposit and the timing of when that is it may not you know you're not going to issue all of that all at once and that's where Debbie with our financial advisors and bond Council come in to make those decisions and to to uh time it as best as they can uh aside from the apparatus the fire departments also are requesting uh some significant equipment there in the amount of $530,000 that's radios turnout gear uh scva uh uh tanks which uh turnout gear and the tanks they have on a rotation basis so that way they're not doing everything all at once um and the same thing goes for the PD vehicles uh Chief here has two vehicles and you'll see these recurring each year uh about two vehicles uh that every year he's trying to replace so that way they're not all the fleet's not all being replaced at once which is a very smart move um and then DPW also some Vehicles things like salt spreaders and uh plows and trucks that need to be updated and upgraded so um and every year you will see that road resurfacing amount also $500,000 uh 2025 slightly less uh actually significantly less but the categories pretty much the same uh instead of those big ticket apparatus we have one apparatus for Green Village in the amount of about half a million and uh some more fire department equipment and they have their facilities which need some assistance uh that is some radios as well plus issue with one of the Bays so they've requested 441,000 uh PD vehicles and Equipment a quarter of a million and same thing with DPW vehicles and Equipment if you'd like me to go into those uh in more detail certainly can I can pull those up but uh I will say the department heads are very judicious with what they're requesting and definitely uh rich and DPW is very frugal and he tries to squeeze out every last mile he can out of a vehicle U but they do put a lot of miles on these vehicles especially you know if they're doing salting and plowing these vehicles take quite a beating so um you know definitely want to support them in that regards and if not for these sort of one time these big expenses like these the apparatus or radios we as we did last year we probably could fit all these within our Capital Improvement fund of $800,000 um but we've got these big ticket items and and that's what's going to result in us having to issue some debt yes Green Village apparatus okay you have another one here then yes the second yep so uh 2026 um uh the big thing here to note because everything else is pretty pretty similar uh is the Greenville jarus they're expecting another one of theirs coming uh due for 2026 for 1.2 million uh which is what's going to bring this this figure back up but you'll see also their other equipment dropped by about $400,000 uh so uh and dpw's equipment in vehicles here went down and 2027 another apparatus for uh chadam Township Fire Department and your standard terms of Road resurfacing PD and DPW vehicles and Equipment nothing out of the ordinary there uh the chief you'll notice did start to account for that projection of costs might increase on vehicles so you'll see for example here in 2028 again those numbers went up there's no apparatus uh that is going to be needed or at least planned for in 2028 and then 20129 we do have another apparatus coming due uh for the Chad Township Fire Department and the amount of .5 so we will see that Spike coming up uh that year and then 2030 starts to level back out again um and as you get further out uh some of the Departments are expecting that some things might hit end of life whether they last the year not so PD and DPW airing on the site of caution did include a few things that they thought might be uh nearing end of life uh some assigned unassigned projects requests uh affordable hous obligations that's a big unknown um we've been talking and the states just passed legislation on affordable housing legis obligations for the municipalities uh I can't even begin to give you an estimate right now um but you know if you look at the past couple years we have spent several million dollars whether it's in property acquisition whether it's in developer subsidies um I'd probably say in the last five years it's been somewhere close to almost $10 million uh in terms of affordable housing obligations so that is something that we have to be mindful of as we consider other big ticket items uh one other item and they kind of play off each other uh the next two items the police headquarters municipal office construction I know that's something that's been talked about for quite a while I think we need to pull the trigger on something so estimating uh5 to7 million for that but the alternative is Municipal Building Maintenance now in either case and that that what I'm referring to with this is if we don't you know come up with a complex that houses both the police and the municipal building uh and the municipal building were to remain as its intended use there is work that needs to be done here uh there's the costs of a lot of the things here are still from the original construction of the building carpeting Windows walls wallpapers falling down windows are not the most efficient and have issues um and even if we were not going to stay or if we were going to stay and have another tenant in this building there's work that would still need to be done here as well from whether it's entrance and exits whether it's uh fire safety whether it's uh partitioning off walls uh there's about a million dollars that we've already estimated in upgrades and repairs that need to be made to this building um one idea that's been on my mind uh since last year is looking at uh our assets for solar energy uh generation uh the thought there is that it would reduce our operating expenses in some cases we have an abundance of space that would probably generate us Revenue above and beyond what we're already using um you know we've got everything you look at the WPC the pump stations you look at the recycling center uh the municipal building our parking lots so if we wanted to embark on a solar energy project for each of these even if it's phased in uh there are also federal grants for that which would help subsidize uh because the federal government is pushing that so that is something that I stuck here as my request and then the library uh as commit Hugh knows very well um we were just on a call today with the library but um conservative estimate is if we were to do one or even multiple phases that's going to be U almost three to four million dollar uh expense for each municipality and depending on the timing that could quickly go up um and just to give you an idea what that would mean is and in addition to what I was talking about the debt service going up year after year year um you know in terms of our payments for the current budget that would add an about average over 7 years $142,000 each year in additional Debt Service to our operating budget so just so we're clear The Debt Service that the not The Debt Service the capital plan you laid out initially where you have it mapped out by year that is kind of keep the lights on Capital plan correct there's really not much in here here that is uh sorry there was not a lot of wbel room we questioned every line there's not a lot of room at all um so before we discuss are there any other items that anybody is wondering why they're not on the T I mean I I'm wondering why Parks so the pars would fall under uh open space on the open space fund and we do have an all there every year that would you know between The Debt Service and maintenance and upgrades so whether it's the pool whether it's um you know looking at uh reing fields we do have all of those um we certainly um review those but they don't have a direct impact on the the operating budget and the taxes so uh okay that one in WPC I felt that you know we review them another time or uh as they come up it's not you it's goal is part of this I think general fund budget okay um because I know at some point we had wanted to get kind of a mapping of when that you know each field is going to expire that we've got to anticipate replacing and I guess uh and things are Colony those types of things so when you're comfortable that the open space uh fund that that will cover those expenses over time I am I think as long as so go ahead I know we had disced um we have a budget set aside for the feny property um that was part of this year's budget and it's still left 33 something thousand and when Z and I were reviewing we put 500 and we don't think that the FY the total cost would be that High um because it's the purchase price with any of the soft cost so we probably have about 60,000 left from that and we also have a 50,000 that's still in capital for um there colony that's another 110 on top of the 330 that is the balance and if the project is done this year it may not need payment until next it started this year the finished product may not be done until next year which then you have another uh Levy for 25 that could become part of the funding process as well you just said 50,000 but our understanding was was 500,000 500 is in the budget for fence Fe there's already to budget it in capital that was from prior year ordinances that has not been spent so it's available to put towards col correct but the the wall project in col is 500 what no 300 it was estimated at 300 so that balance that was talking about three something we have enough there uh and in Old funds okay I have I okay the report I had said 500,000 so that's good the estimate for the original estimate from uh John was I believe $300,000 that's what we had all along was estimating $300,000 now with the straight wall that change we don't know does that go up does it go down uh in either case we're confident that we've got the funds there again between the old and and the new and as that we said you know you're not going to you're going to make an initial payment now and then by the time it finished because they it is going to carry into next year it's not going to be done all this year so you make the the payments you know as as they send in their bills so we will have the 2025 Levy to also supplement that is there anything uh anything else that uh anybody on the committee was wondering why we don't have it in the capital plan you now we're going forward when you look when you put together the uh police and munique buildings are you considering that to be a combined effort or individuals um that is what I had envisioned was a combined effort I I envisioned a combined effort but it's not a decision it's just again coming up with the best guess what makes sense I think that's what makes the most sense but we would have to at least uh incorporate or at least engage uh an architect and or engineer to get started and that's going to have soft costs associated with it to get started on that so I do think we need to make a mination whether it's this year or early next year to say okay here's what we want to do and what does that process look like you know does it look like public engagement first kind of brainstorming does it look like getting professionals to give us Concepts first with some estimates to present to the public you know that that all has to be discussed and decided upon I mean I guess what I have to add about this is like what strikes me about Public Finance which is that to me it's less important how much it is but rather who pays okay that's that's something that I've seen over a long period of time where whether it be Grant funds or otherwise so I think um this is a better view forward than we've had in the three years I've been on the committee here so this is good I think where this could get better is that there is a certain amount of debt authorization that we're going to do and there's going to be a certain amount of debt execution and if we had a projection for what is actually going to be executed this year and what is just authorized because we need to do that for public purposes those are those are there's a vast difference there and um it it could be the case that we're authorizing because of Grants or other things adjustments that we make we're authorizing debt that we never use which would be a great thing for the public um so I think that's one thing that could help Vision forward the other thing that I would just add about this is specifically about like turning are resources the the great assets of this town into resources for thing when you talk about things like improving the municipal building if this was a private property we would look at this and say well there's going to be U we'll make improvements but they're going to be tenant improvements and so you're kind of happy to figure out creatively how to pay for that because you know there's a tenant behind it right so I think if we use a little bit of that thinking towards not only this property but our other resources too like in other communities they have um scheduling applications that allow people to schedule time in a gym at an hourly rate you know and I I think there are resources in this town that we could use in that manner would that would be very helpful and the the capital expense to get into it um is is offset of course by their by its by the revenue that we would then generate so and it would make uh quality life improvements so like for inance technology for field scheduling would allow us to rent the fields I mean I mean I'm just walking in this building tonight there is a probably I'm not sure but likely um private soccer group using our Mountain Side field here and I'm not sure that we're you know that we're aware of that or that's that's a strictly authorized use the same thing happens at our other fields um you see it regularly if you go down there you'll see private Clinic private coaching kind of kind of situation um where I I think there's a Miss for you know an opportunity for the community so I and I and of course the space in this moment if we can use that uh I don't think it it doesn't look bad I or rather it's more palatable to the public and to me certainly as a resident if we knew we had Revenue coming in okay um I guess I ask if we go back to this year's plan this one yeah so any questions in particular because this you need authorization do we have a sense to Comm Lois's point do we have a sense of how much we would have to we would actually incur in Deb this so with the trucks I know you were talking about there's some yeah so this is this is planning and again you know toan Lo's Point your point you know we have to do this by ordinance and at that point to we would get into much more specifics um and explain that that would be in the the ordinance as well um and as we've done some other ordinance you say here's the total authorization here's the down payment this amount of money is coming from this fund this is what's coming from that fund but based off of here right you know that that line where I have CIF and DP $800,000 that we know is $900,000 I just put $800,000 across the board so we have a baseline but we appropriate $900,000 in the Improvement fund this year um so of that 800 of that $900,000 right we would have to look at what would we really be issuing debt for um I would say the apparatus and you know I'll ask Debbie to weigh on her her ideas of this but definitely the the two apparatus would be something that we would Bond go out to bond for uh do a separate authorization on those um the road resurfacing the PD Vehicles DPW equipment to the extent that we can pay them out of the cap Improvement fund we would do that um but we would have to reduce that $900,000 but what by whatever the down payment is that we're going to need to issue debt for um the fire department equipment that $530,000 that includes some radios I'm still working with uh the county and the Departments to see if I could get that number down um see if we can get uh the county to lease us some radios that the the fire departments need so that way we don't have to buy them out right you're responsible for their maintenance when they're end of life what do we do with them uh because we are getting radios from the county right now but limited quantities so if we can do that that would be a big help um and so we're still looking at that the affordable housing the timing of that one we want to do the authorization but we're going to need that sooner rather than later because we want to make sure that well we don't need the financing right away we just need to have a commitment for the financing because the developer still has to finalize everything with hmfa so these are the things that we would you know work out they'd all be in the authorization but you know Debbie and I would work closely i' tell Debbie Hey listen that the affable housing number we don't need to finance that just yet we can wait on that the apparatuses same thing when the Departments they're pretty close on on their specs U but when they're ready to you know start presenting what it is that they want to buy they've buttoned everything up and they want to start talking them to us about the contract terms and uh you know we have to look at okay where is this coming from is it what contract or Co-op is this coming from what's the down payment needed that's going to dictate we actually we're going to finance those so um right now it's still premature I think probably in the next month or two uh we will have that you know have a better idea of those I mean for example I know the the fire trucks are the big chunk and those I thought I recall hearing like it's going to be a couple years before we even get it and it's like one third deposit yeah there's a build out on them if you the bigger the deposit sometimes they will drop money off the cost so if you make a bigger deposit up front you might be able to save you know shave off 5% 10% whatever it is um so we don't know those details yet we have to talk to the vendors and uh you know get a better idea of that okay it is a sorry it is a minimum of like a twoyear turn though after Co for these app yep I have a general kind of 40,000 foot view um and that is looking at the seven-year plan or even the initial year our year um it's bump and bump and bump right when when is it that a debt load uh becomes um impactful on ratings and all those kinds of things what where is it where we really got to get careful because we're looking about a lot of things that are going to build on things that are going to build on things that may even build on other things and so if uh you know whereas our position today um versus you know other communities similar communities uh and the debt load that we would even consider consider taking on or we're going to pay more for interest talking limited to a certain percentage like 3% of your uh equalized value so there is a whole calculation we're well under that for the standard um but the rating agencies will look at your debt ratio um we're not in any danger but it does impact your tax rate for next year sure um because obviously you're seeing $100,000 increase in over increment looking at you know a half% increase you know every year just in the debt accumulation because nothing is dropping off in that first seven years that you're looking at okay of all until the debt starts to drop off and if we're constantly accumulating yes you're just building a building before that big drop is going to come off and at a certain point we're going to have to bond it right right just because I believe of all the municipalities in Mars County there's only one that doesn't have carry that I believe it's oh yeah for you know municipalities to carry that that limit but there's a lot of guard rails no I understand but that's what I mean but we Fair a lot better than most M no no I understand that but but I want to continue that yeah exactly that's that's the that's what we want to hear de Debbie won't won't let it um our hisory brought us back to when we were hitting Co and we had portable housing we had our own little pandemic with the two of them colliding and we had a really tough budget year um two on top of each other that we had a we had a lot of professional cost everything associated with the affordable housing yes so that increased taxes so we increased those taxes so you have that big increase that carries forward to our current years so after that once those leveled out now back to a normal level we now have that equity in our tax rate to be utilized for our Capital Improvement so that tax increase then is carrying forward now yes before we never had this lot this allotment of money to put towards Capital Improvement now we do but it was back to that tax rate increase that is now carried forward and is helping us dissolve some of that Capital uh not to have to have go out to debt um so those small increases will accommodate that in the future especially because right now we're paying 1.5 million in debt service every year right if that was alleviated that could be going towards Capital Improvement of course so you're going to be paying it out at one point or another in the long term when you look at the cost associated with a project over time you're sometimes doubling the project yeah you push something out 20 30 years plus 2 million is now 4 million yeah thank you okay so the priority is 2024's capital plan and like we had talked about that's the keep the lights on plan and um Public Safety is the big thing in 2024 yeah we're not going to incur all of it that's kind of like the high end of what the authorization you're seeking you authorize and then we'll uh go out for a note uh for what's needed at the time we'll have an evaluation of what payments need to be made over the course of that say a year we are going to go out for a note in September because we have our current note which needs to be rolled in September so we'll do everything that we need at once to kind of defer some cost and not have to get two notes okay that they do it rolling into one you're we're going to save some money great so uh I guess what I wanted from the committee twofold thank you for the presentation was great because we haven't had it organized in this manner in the past um and it was something that bugged me for a long time so I appreciate you getting this done um thanks for your patience um so the uh there's two things there's giving you the authorization to move forward um with the 2024 the other piece the you know the things that we'd like to have that are unassigned at this point that I'd like to you know carry forward just because I want to continue the discussion so there's other you know things that come to mind or if we start talking about priorities when we talk about what's happening with this building you know if we move uh the uh staff over to a new police station type thing then we could start thinking about better utilization of this space so there's a lot of conversation that's take place so I guess I would say especially because it's been a long night so far um let's let's any objection to what's proposed for 2024 Capital plan well I mean my my only input there is that we had no discussion at all really of any substance about our priorities lists and I spent a lot of time preparing that and uh we were supposed to have an hour discussion on it and we you know that night ran long as well we didn't have any discussion on it so I'm I'm wondering even how the you know how I mean what was the point of that exercise or how did that feed into this Capital plan so two points on that is I sto to schedule a meeting with the administration committee because I think that's where we were referring it but uh to go over this Capital plan first um you know a lot of those things that I did look at the you know what are things in there for this budget that needed to be included um and I think we incorporated if I missed something for 2024 at least but because the other ones are future planning there's no commitment to any of those just yet so we can still adjust and and we will adjust um this is just a presentation of right now what the Departments and everybody's requested um and I tried to include I think affordable housing was of of them we talked about libraries being one of them uh so try to incorporate as much of that as possible but if I miss something for 2024 let me know not for 2024 the only other kind of wish list item that I recall seeing was the sidewalk on fair amount um that was the only one I could pick up from the priorities list well the priorities list I mean it went I guess beyond what the scope of this capital is because this Capital presentation is sort of subscribing to this idea of segregated funds which I like which is that you know we have open space funds and we haven't really talked about that right so this kind of it seems to me like Recreation is sort of lumped off of this right we're kind of leaving it in the open space fund I mean that's what it seems like to me in terms of capital I think so because a lot of the investment that's going on into it's either going to be open space or come out of our Parks and Rec trust fund Parks and Rec trust fund we've also been talking about that with the finance committee of establishing guidelines on what's going to be spent out of the trust fund and what's coming out of open space but nearly all of our rec facilities are our open space inventory so they should be allocated to the open space uh open space fund if they are acceptable uses right and then the WPC stuff um and John's working on that report you know because so again we've got a lot of moving pieces that's why I said this has been something I've been trying to get going since 2023 every year we've been making in incremental progress to perfecting this process um because there's a lot of things that are needed to inform this process that have not been completed and and done so we're getting there uh as I said thank you for your patience because you know this is still not the 100% this is probably the 60 to 75% and once we get more of those the review of the WPC and and capacity and what's needed over there uh and once we get a more thorough assessment of all of our parks and Fields we'll be able to you know look at okay this is end of life you know the lights hit end of life on this year uh so we're getting there sure so I guess the only like near-term thing I have that maybe it would be it would seem to me parks and Rex trust fund is actually part of the budget like so the so the main operating budget that's what it would seem to be would fall there a separate trust for okay so that's separate and that's the fees that are collected from the kids right so so then so that there's a lot of segregation okay um yeah I would I mean I would have to compare this against that priorities list to see um there's something missing but I think we can move forward with the 2024 and still I mean the other reason I wanted to have start having this discussion is because I'd like the public to get involved too so you know they we still have an opportunity to develop the rest of the you know list this is the you know right now we're looking for the 2024 keep the lights on Capital plan is there any objection to proceeding with that so that that's really what I'm looking for we could always add yeah well that's the thing about Capital right you could always there could be there could always be an ad at some point in we just want to get the ball rolling so that John can get once we get the ordinance done then you still have an a stoppable period of 20 days so we need to get the ball rolling so John can get the paving started because I can't award any contracts until after that 20 days okay after adoption and the two big things the for timeliness is right now the road resurfacing and housing so that way those aren't held up I me yes PD and DPW stuff is important so as the others to apparatus so that's coming a little bit down the line but yeah we do need to uh get drafting on the ordinance and and slate it for the next meeting okay the thing I'm sorry but just the thing about cars this year I mean the car Market's rolled hard right so we were facing the opposite which is we couldn't get cars and if you didn't buy them then you were definitely paying more and now it's the other way so that might not be a bad thing to kick until the fall if they if you know if without of course impacting public saity okay great I think you have your marching orders thank you thank you very much thank you I really I got to recognize Debbie not enough she does such a great job and puts in a lot of time so thank you do we need a five minute Bly function break bi uh let's just uh take a 5 minute break where are we 9:34 come back at 9:40 recording stopped pretending at your phone oh my gosh so much a lot s can't hurt you can't hurt your RW but I think we're confident I think we're confident not too much uh oh yeah I was in class all it to him he he's responding to have a good night thank you see you th you with this yes yeah thank you [Music] thanks I mean these things should be pretty quick things are going to take a while I hopefully I would say this one right here let me get my glasses on oh I think this one right here and I think this will make it if I had to guess I'm a bet man did you write them down my words I know I know what you you it out let's see so you midnight my baby's in bed I'm good now did you have a chance to look over that no I sent it to um um and he actually hold on let's see what he said to me he did respond to me hold on I'll tell you what he said in two seconds yes he sent me back in agreement so I don't understand what he's trying to with no like commentary so I can't tell if this is your agreement that you sent him or is he proposing a different one I'll have to compare them and let you know because he didn't really get yeah because um what I sent you today was um you know Z had put that together based on some prior agreements then I you know put in like I I heard like rather than have you know every vendor having a different contract template use for everyone that I put in you know like the firm name contact name resolution number youu yeah it looked fine to me but I it's not really that kind of goes my head a little bit so um it needs to be by okay like in addition to that being the basic contract for MCM Scot pretty much the same language for engineering okay all right so I'll talk responded with a contract and on my phone I can't I can't tell if he like is proposing revisions if it's a different contract he's giving me or the only the only change that I really other than tailoring to the particular vendor the only other change I made for this year was um Z's template as um the not to exceed language where yeah because we didn't do that in our resolutions this year got a minute yeah I took that up that in back in for next year okay are you are you familiar with the changes to the open legislation or not otherwise I'll just ask you to speak to that one thing that he brought up about the change in the pays the yes I can speak to that okay no is you're talking about recent changes I'm not familiar with anything it can't yeah dropped yeah no no I don't I don't have that okay they just dropped the yes or then okay yeah yeah I think it just came out Prett recently oh what the changes are Oprah just ask to speak do we even know what they are I I don't yet I can into it why we defer to um I'll make sure and do it for uh are they supposed to vote on it soon th yeah if you could uh maybe highlight yes I can do that okay are we is Alex are you good to to resume recording in progress are we good on you okay we're back um we should be because as she didn't pause it so it's good okay yeah I but okay thank you welcome back to the May 7th Township committee meeting we are going to continue uh why don't we move on to Administration okay um first one a resolution to authorize a purchase agreement with the county uh good news there I have been negotiating the count to get a vehicle and a ride on mower so the vehicle would be used by our construction Department our inspectors and all that and the ride on mower would be us by DPW um and all for the the price of $1 so um Surplus equipment from them over there uh reduces again our our need to buy stuff like that price yep good price any questions there all right thank you um resolution cost of living adjustment that's the annual uh increase for employees uh the non-union employees so uh this was based on what was budgeted and in line with what was last year about 3% Which is less than what the unions are getting but then also less than the cost of inflation but uh it recognizes the non-un employees for their continued hard work and uh slating that for the next meeting okay uh next one is an ordinance on the use of Na vitation uh that our wonderful environmental commission has put together uh in consultation with DPW and uh I been reviewing it and I fully support it and endorse it I think it's something that we can do um and it only applies to Municipal properties uh and there are some exemptions in there for you know unforeseen or exent circumstances uh which they accommodated so um any questions on that anybody have questions or environmental committee chair hung in there all this time question someone asked her something she actually I do have a question I know that uh other other towns have created such an ordinance correct and has there been any feedback from any of those towns on its um acceptance applicability is it 100% is everybody happy not happy do we have any kind of feedback like I haven't consulted with the other towns to see what the feedback is different towns do different things not all towns do 100% native some do you know 70% I have mixed feelings on that I am by no means opposed to doing 70% native 30% non-native but I feel like it's harder then to follow for DPW to follow for the garden cl to because how do you different you know how do you break that up it's not that easy um but there are exceptions in there see and I talked about you know availability or cost prohibitive or stuff like that but I don't think you know we have this native plant every year we've been having it four years every year we sell more and more native plants I think there's a public appetite for this and acceptance for this I don't think there will be any issues we put in a native plant garden at shanike everybody there loves it um there a lot for kids SPS just get positive feedback thank you and there is uh kind of cost exception building right that if there's some I can't recall yeah we did pull that CL but yeah they did incorporate that um and I just add also it's an education component I mean people think you know because we're saying native plants like it's some big hurdle but it really isn't I they're available so many places uh it's just a matter of like not picking your sort of garden variety of what's available at Home Depot is just making a very conscious decision to say okay well instead of this grass I'm going to go with this grass or this shrub this shrub you have a lot of options people just don't know about it so since this is for municipal property you know what is the real reality of how many projects are we doing really that this is impacting anyways but when we do uh it keeps us on our toes and make sure that we're doing right by New Jersey and there are exceptions in there for memorials and flag po areas um and the environmental commission put in for Grants to buy signage where we do have made plans to say this is this is why it's here so that's the education component wonderful any questions my only comment on this is just that this is something where we're seeing what can be planted on Municipal property but we still have the issue of uh the tree ordinance that applies to what people have to do right to replace um trees on their property to get to a certain density but we don't follow that in the municipality so I think we we kind of have an balance of we're going to Native editation ordinance okay which I have no no issue with it and I think the way that it's grafted is pretty smart in the way that it's going to uh be implemented that's it's good but we're still we're still not even meeting what were the requirements we're putting on every other property owner in town when we do Municipal projects and I would like to see something with as many car outs and caveats and exceptions as this native vegetation ordinance has to for a tree ordinance that would sort of give direction and policy for what we're going to do to replace trees because we've seen trees get taken down and they're pretty important shade trees shading playgrounds shading important areas um and not replaced can I we have another Grant application and the project in the wars for shanai to do a reforestation there um and we've consulted with Morris County and a couple Foresters and so we put in our grants he reviewed it and he signed a letter of support to and it would be doing this it's I think there's a matter of finding the appropriate place to put trees I'm sure you know a colony they just took down a huge Oak that was dead so I have sent a letter saying you know we want another Oak planted in that area to make up for the tree that was taken down so I agree with you on that thank you there so I'm trying to think of what the expectation is so what committee Lois was saying that U you know there are certain cases if a tree is dead if a tree is diseased you take down the tree so likewise we would expect from our DPW that they're evaluating the trees and otherwise it would be an effort to replace if there's some things that have to be taken out so when the path is cleared between over by Shan Pike to the Overflow Lots if a tree came down that you know normally res would have to repace we would like to replace that I mean I don't think that's unreasonable no I think it's very reasonable I think the uh the issue has been in just the sort of planning in terms of putting money aside for tree planting you know in other places um where where we'd have a tree Bank you know certain people couldn't meet the requirements they're contributing to that tree bank that tree bank is where we always ta into for money to put trees on the the planting strip or you know so we can do that in our open space fund uh as well you know we just have to make a conscious effort to uh budget for that and and we will I'm not sure that's really an issue of budget but but with the tree ordinance that I think the tricky part would be density right so right now we have a required density on certain properties and then there's quadrant and it's kind of become probably maybe in my view it's too involved but we would have to craft something that would say okay that that would take into some subject some sort of density or some sort of you know objective way of looking at what really needs to be replaced because if obviously you you're a homeowner you could take down let's say four trees and you're still at the density you don't need to replace any of them right because your property is overgrown with trees maybe have too many something you have to meet a certain density so we have to have the same um ability and if you're looking at a huge field like Nash or Shan Pike or Mount View and you know it's like oh how many trees did I take down well there's still a lot more trees right so it it's going to have to be it's going to have to be something that has a wide birth to it it's going to have to be something that shows sentiment and intent and not necessarily um probably a hard calculation but I think it's much like this this ordinance for use of native vegetation it's very uh open and reasonable that's all okay thank you okay so Administration um we we had two more resolutions there yeah okay sorry that's why I was looking where we are shared service agreement with the health department uh yeah just um a not I mean there's not much there we've discussed this in executive session so just putting it on your radar that next meeting we like will have the resolution the Board of Health did um Greg was there you can speak to that if needed but they adopted their concurrence or you know recommendation that we proceed and T has been working with uh the uh provider agency to get that buttoned up so we'll just need a resolution tothor agreement right and then uh the new new V developers agreement Amendment uh which uh T also spoke about uh I believe executive which is the amendment to incorporate the uh increase in our contribution and clarifying UH responsibilities so both those on the next agenda any questions about either okay uh discussion action item uh there was a request um to talk about the uh issue of landscap noise um just kind of putting it out there not sure where we want to go with that there's different approaches but uh yeah this actually came up um a couple times and certainly um have experienced it myself as well as a lot of our neighbors and the degree to which um coming up with maybe alternates um for a limitation on either the deciel levels which has been people walking out with their Apple watch and they say hey you're 90 DB and the ordinance says 60 um and and yet uh it goes on and on and on and I know it's been a recurring theme for many years um is there something or or creative ideas perhaps we can come up with of uh some kind of limitation on this noise particularly the blowers but obviously the other landscape noise um the blowers tended to be big ones uh people have talked to me well you know maybe everybody go electric and then we're going to have you know land contractors who have to charge batteries every half an hour and they're certainly going to drive costs up and and a lot of positives but negatives to that as well so um the reason I asked for this to be put on here is to have more of a discussion you know are other towns doing some things effectively are they quadring you know towns for certain days where the noise can be made um you know and what's the appetite you know within the within the community and what do the residents think we'd really like to uh reach out and say hey what what do we all think about this and is it a uh a quality of life issue that should uh you know have more conversation where maybe we as a committee can give some guidance or make some make some suggestions on how to uh alleviate that so that's that's really why to be um put on the agenda I don't have the creative solution I wish I did and so I'm asking for people smarter than me to come and and make some uh make some suggestions that we can consider so I reach out to the town and and others to to do that so this comes up before the Board of Health periodically since that the noise ordinance is a Board of Health um governing document yes and part of part of the problem that the health department is often cited with enforcement is that in the time for from from if they get a call that landscaper making too much noise by the time they could get out there with the sound equipment the landscapers already moved on to another town and um yeah there's the issue of having to have base readings when it's quiet versus base ratings when the landscapers are there so um you know the Board of Health is aware of the issue but uh there are inherent um enforcement probability um uh problems with it and um when when when the Board of Health discussed leaf blowers in particular uh we had a local landscaper come on the meeting on the zoom call and uh something that he noted was that um towns where they have U banned leaf blowers landscapers don't do business there anymore so you that's that's a consideration no certainly there's practical implication uh but there's also you know maybe some kind of middle ground and and what suggestions were even made by the health department if any um and so um you know because and I did get that response actually pretty directly and pretty aggressively yeah I can just take my Apple watch and do it is there a you know could I just email what's on my Apple watch and that would be kind of a reporting structure or something I mean these are details but um I I don't think I'd like to just kind of drop it because it's so impractical um I would like to see if we might be able to discuss some kind of format um well I think one uh one suggestion I think we briefly spoke about maybe putting out a survey just to see you know what are people's sentiments um because I know it we just had spring cleanup so there's going to be definitely going to be more people in your yard for a concentrated period of time and then as the season goes on it's you know your regular one or two people so we just came out of the Season where it's spring cleanup so there's definitely going to be a lot more activity and noise um and I think we can put it maybe put out a survey to everyone and just see how they feel about it because even in the Board of Health we had a discussion about it and people seemed more concerned about the trucks parking and where they Park and that causes you know a safety issue versus the noise issue so I think maybe putting like a quick down and dirty 10 to 20 questions are you concerned on a scale of one to five of this how do you feel about this like the parking the noise the spring cleanup the you know the use of chemicals those kind of things we had a lot of con you know conversation around treatments and ticks and those kind of things so I think it it's it's noise but there's a whole gamut of things related to landscaping services in our community that maybe we just take the Pulse on because you know it's it's you know a lot to cover and maybe you know baby steps we start with the priorities and I don't know when it comes to noise if you're going to um be a little more Broad and and talk about you know whether it be you doing it on your own yard or whether you have a landscaper I mean I have a neighbor that seems to just be using a Lea lower like constant any has landscapers it's just constant so I mean I think that right not even level but the whatever you know noise is noise whether no matter who's making it so because I was going to raise that point that I remember when I was on the board of health the big problem was that you couldn't just say landscapers whatever you so if you banned gas blowers then you were Banning residents from using gas blowers if you said you can't blow your lawn on Saturday or Sunday or let's say just Sunday then you you know the residents can't do that either so that was so then it's how do you come up with the response that you know because residents don't want to be told they can't take care no more than one gas blower per property at you know there's different ways some landscapers come in and they're doing three or four they just want to be done so you have like a whole Fleet and they banging out a whole street so you can say something like no more than one per property or you know you could put restrictions on how many ccs of the engine I'm not saying suggesting you do these but there's different ways you can kind of pick these apart you can say okay you're only doing it between you're doing the noise you're only allowed to make this noise you know on these days of the week uh you know so there's and there is different Machinery because I know our own landscapers it's one thing with the guys with the backpack and the blowing thing it's another thing they've got some big machine that they do with spring and fall cleaning that is awfully like unbearably loud yeah it's huge they ride on it's unbearably there different carve it out and yes it will apply to landscapers more than it will so you're not saying we're targeting landscapers but you're you're affecting the the equipment that's most likely used by non-homeowners but with a reasonable basis because you're you know the things yeah it's louder those machines just happen be louder and they're probably things that you know homeowners aren't going to buy for themselves okay so I guess I'm trying to think of what next steps would be because it would be nice to have some kind of input on what other towns are doing so I was option last year I was working on a survey sort of General is 10 to 15 questions on General quality of life and assessment from residents on things uh did not get a chance to to finalize it but certainly can include almost like a page two of other issues I don't know maybe the environmental commission open space commission all these different groups if they want to submit three questions and we can have this like secondary page that you know gives them some feedback on on things so you know to the point of engaging these Community groups ask ask each of these groups to throw in three questions and you know add to the survey and what it my thought was I've done this else it would be a postcard with a QR code and a website link gets mailed to every home it's cheap we did a postcard I think it ends up being less than $2,000 printing postage they click they sign up and you know tie that into the fact that you know we've updated our website and we're going to have a mailing list system now finally so we can tie that all in together may I make a suggestion about this um I think that some of these quality of life issues the issue the problem with them is that you can have feedback skewed by a small number of people that are highly interested and I don't want to see that happen for our community I also don't want to go to the expense of doing something we have never done I think it's incumbent on the five of us that you know we've door knocked you talked to Residents to bring issues back but as far as doing a survey um could we keep the survey perhaps online only and say what are the most important questions and then raise all these questions Landscaping noise what whatever the questions are and then put them forth for um a a ballot uh a non-binding ballot referendum question that we have put on for the fall so that we get true feedback from a large group of people so that everybody's presented the question and the question would just be a non-binding and we could get back feedback from the whole Community then as opposed to getting feedback from you know hey uh I'm really interested in this I got 30 friends and I'm going to pump it to them and they're going to feedback our electronic po so this way it goes on the ballot um but but what we could get would be a sense of what are the most important questions and then let the let the public weigh in on that yeah I would say let's first get the input and then we can decide you know how we want to proceive that that would have to be like very early summer though because we we need to get it on the ballot we'd have to you know obviously printed okay like that IDE survey were you planning on having that done soon I had the question we're talking about this November's ballot well I mean I had that question the survey uh drafted and U the postcards is just you know a matter of timing last year didn't get it I didn't want to do it before everybody went away on vacation and the post cards are sitting there the way it was done also is they're putting in there you know an address so you're validating you're not getting more than one based off of an address um you know and it's it's essentially non-binding so just to to give you a feel yeah yeah okay um well the reality is we don't have to answer it this year necessarily but if we start the process and at least I I like the idea of a quality of life you know survey so residents could give input on their priorities okay um so that was landscape or noise and then Colony pool membership and revenue report uh yeah apiz that was uh sent out a little late I was working on the capital presentation was a big priority but um that report did get emailed out uh this afternoon and I can uh pull up it's a very simple report though uh just identifies uh you know revenue and overall Revenue last year this year and then uh the membership registration based off of early bird and regular season for both wow you had a nice early bird I'm just looking at this now turn now this is April to April though 23 24 it's from through April 30th yeah so uh you know we ran the report essentially beginning of it's the beginning of January but registration doesn't open until this year we opened it a little bit earlier on in February but uh not too much uh but yeah oh I was reading so it is down that's not not it's down the regulars the regulars are up and the early birds are down but not too much uh we do have another mailing that's going out also and I think that'll scoop up some more uh numbers as well and uh yeah so it looks like it's going to be similar or down a touch okay great any questions yeah I just wanted to say that I think um um if we have another mailing coming up that we you got to check that the QR code um actually bounces to the right link because right now it's busted it's broken it it was all part of the migration of the website it's all working as of today okay um I had a report today that it wasn't I the the links on Facebook you know for like swim lessons broken um when we sent out the initial postcard went to a it there was no QR code it was a website the initial postcard right that announced ear bird resolve to a website we don't own so the the only contact information on the first early bird postcard has a website that uh you know doesn't resolve to the Colony page and doesn't resolve to any page it's just not something that is colony pool.or which I guess expired and we don't have it so I think there's a bunch of promotional issues with you know what what's I I think that's you know linked to this um it's just another example though where re Revenue we want Revenue to go higher but rates going higher doesn't mean revenue goes higher you're seeing it again here I've said it a lot so I'm not going to I have a question about the snack bar vendor um do we need a resolution to accept them again um I don't believe so I mean there I think last year we did the concession agreement it was multiyear with renewal options but I will confirm but they're ready to go okay if you could because I think it's open space and it's two years and I think there's there's some Green Acres issue right like a concession there's specific AC code on that it's like says like every two years last year was the first year in the new uh concession that that that would be great if that's yeah I remember Mr King looked into it and we did a new because the concession expired prior to last year's season so it was a new agreement I think we had a new agreement but I'll look into yeah I think we do this offline but it's just there's something there okay um and then I did want to go back to uh Mr Carr had asked about Oprah which is coming up um it turns out the deadlines are tighter than we realized it just came up again it was dropped yesterday for uh committee discussion on the 9th and I think looking for a committee vote on the 12 so um I know given it was just you wouldn't be in a position to speak to some of the detail but he did bring up the topic of the the shifting of the legal fees which would be the same as before yes that's yes that's correct that was um that was in the I guess I don't really want to call it the original um revision but yes and that was um a shift from the uh current policy which is if um there is a determination that the record should have been provided um there's no question then the municipality has to pay the attorney's fees um and to a um determining um by the court of the government records Council um whether to award attorne fees and it's based on whether the public agency is found to have knowingly and willfully violated Oprah as opposed to just a violation whether it was unintentional or are despite their best efforts now no matter what you pay the attorney's fees there's now this component of whether or not the public agency's failure to comply was knowing and willful and if they're knowing well if they find then they're required still to to to pay for the legal fees then the municipality could be found to be liable for legal fees but again you have to knowingly and and and knowingly and willfully violating it so you're intentionally inv violating you're intentionally not providing the fees so to be honest in that case it's reasonable that you'd have to pay traes as opposed to you know you've done your best efforts you've try to provide all the records and you missed three by accident and you know those should have been provided and or there was a legal argument to not provide it but the GRC just disagrees so I think those cases it's reasonable Municipal shouldn't have to pay legal legal fees so just so I'm clear so the requirement though to pay legal fees because I guess what I had heard was it shifted from the municipality if they were found right or if they didn't provide the the documents that they would have to pay the legal fees to shifting to that the judge decides whether or not right yeah right now right now it's automatic that if we deny a request and we lose in court then we have to pay their legal fees yes uh this would make it the judge's discretion whether or not the person would be awarded legal fees and as T explained you know if it's something where we deny in good faith if it's just a difference in legal opinion the judge might say that we don't have to pay the legal fees whereas in the rare case that I have to deny something if it's you know I'm Tuesday and I'm annoyed and I don't like the person shoes then I would deserve to get in trouble and you know have them get their legal fees but again it and another switch is it wouldn't be Greg that would be liable for the attorney's fees it's the municipality which which I would still get you know reprehend and something like that perhaps yes so sorry I'm still unclear so if if we're found to have knowingly and willfully avoided Oprah then we automatically or it's still in the judge's discretion I think it's up to the judge the judge is going to evaluate and I think the standard is if he finds or she finds that it was knowing and willful then you would you would be paying the fees okay but it's all going to be in the judge's descrip okay and then I had just asked if you can provide us yeah thank you appr well for the benefit of the public you'll be providing us some of the highlights of of uh yeah there changes because I think we had some good information from yep okay we'll do okay Mr lante you're up uh does anyone have questions on my monthly report okay in that case um I sent a uh memo and two draft ordinances for um one regarding pool license fees and another regarding fees for solicitor uh permits and pedler licenses uh in both cases recommending that those uh fees be raised um I'm not wited to the suggestions uh like the final dollar amounts of if the committee has any preferred amounts that they would want to potentially raise them to or leave them alone um I mainly wanted to bring this to your attention as a way to increase uh some Revenue without having to raise taxes I mean I know when I reviewed them the pedler and solicitor fees we were way lower than anywhere there's solicitor solicitor permits in particular were way low uh which um those are issued through the police department uh pedler licenses are issued through me and pool pool licenses are issued through me um and as far as defending raising them uh pool licenses in particular um those have a health department inspection so that um additional Revenue would help offset the cost of our annual uh contract costs for health department Services um for solicitor permits um as I mentioned those are issued through the police department and it never fails that when the police wind up do issuing a solicitor permit and someone's out in the neighborhood the police still get calls that someone's knocking on doors and they still have to go out so you know those extra fees would help um help offset the cost of police services and um with with pedler licenses most of our Peddlers that we issue licenses for are um ice cream vendors which still have health department inspections so again that would help um help offset the cost of Health Department Services okay um so does anybody have any comments or questions my only comment is is that it's really a question is I I imagine the supply po licensees applies to the condomini associations the country club yeah um it would be uh Fair Mountain Country Club Noy Pond Club Ros valy the condos off of River Road and the chatt Hill Apartments the only one that seems to me would be a little bit on the smaller side where this because it's a flat fee right and if you've got um whatever it is 340 units in brand new wine that's completely different than Rose Bell right it's much smaller so I'm just wondering if number of doors makes any if we're if we're adversely impacting any community that has let's say less than 50 doors um you know what I mean um yeah I I don't know or like Melrose they don't have Melrose doesn't have I just don't want to I just don't want to impact a small community uh you know I think 50 would be fine actually but like 16 18 we don't have something like that right yeah I think uh I thought our pool license fees were kind of comparable to other T right well because um ours is currently 150 and the Burrows is 175 um I recommended raising it to to 200 because I thought we going from 100 to 200 um it's 150 presently 150 I wasn't necessarily keen on that one first of all it's only it was nine total there weren't really many a colony pools our own pools so even though I licensed that we don't charge ourselves a fee but um it's um it's seven seven yeah I think seven seven okay yeah I wasn't so keen on the pool license fees a peddler and um although I didn't differentiate Peddler and solicitor fees but it looked like we were uh we were way lower than everybody else on with increasing those but if we are going to and there is a pool inspection involed it does make some sense you and if it the only thing is we're talking about 350 bucks I thought it was 100 to 200 I thought at least we were talking about $700 it's like okay you know as I mentioned in my memo the uh pool license fee that we currently charge that was set in 1972 And there's been just a little bit of inflation since then so um we're saying we have we have we have to Outsource that and it's how much is it costing us well it's the Whole Health yeah because our our health department contracts have gone up significantly since 1972 yeah so um you know that's that's why I thought it might be reasonable the Board of Health recently raised the um fees for uh retail food inspections because those were last set back back in the late '90s so it seems reasonable to me that um considering inflation that we uh if we don't want to raise taxes we can uh raise user fees I'll I'll I'll chime in on one aspect I think um Greg's point is well made the purpose of these fees whether it be application fees permit fees is to cover costs and um and you want to do that in such a way as to keep with inflation and also not have to do enormous jumps in increases so although we haven't made the Imp periodically review them periodic review of those fees and you know keeping them consistent with Market is a good idea so that you don't have sticker shot for people who do have to get those Fe the the permits and licenses and such and it is intended to cover the cost that's really the intent is to cover the costs of whatever department has to review and approve and inspect and process and and while this is admittedly a small fate it's all of those combin right it's all the different things that the board Health has to review and it's all those different fees and license and permit fees that contribute to covering the cost of the board Health yeah and you in in addition to the cost that I already mentioned there's also um the cost of my time issuing the license processing applications uh the police's time processing application so it's taking away from Oprah exactly all right so any objections to the few recommendations for pedler license and solicitor permit fees no objections any objections to the increase in pool license fees I don't love it but if there's no objections yeah I mean the only thing I would say is like if if we're talking about 350 bucks doesn't even cost do even cost effective to pass an and you know like I it's just it's just not it's just you know all right I I think we could go to 250 honestly I mean 150 to two if we're at 150 I the material I read I really thought it was 100 to 200 I thought well it's doubling at least there's that's my input on it I I I don't mind though and I don't think we're getting younger or better by talking about it more and if you want to raise it more if you want to raise it you know only a little bit more um again that's the committee's discretion I just wanted at least have a starting point for discussion because we established there's not one Community there's not one of these places that were impacting where it's like a it's 16 units right it's like $2 $2 per condo or you you know it's just not okay so I'm back to no objections to it sounds like there's no objections to the pool license fee increased to 200 okay you're good to go on that right uh and there were no questions for for your report right yeah because you started out there um construction building any questions on the construction or building report that we received okay engineering we covered everything there Finance we covered police any questions on the police report Public Works uh we have a sludge ordinance is this the annual Sledge no this is an easy one uh 268 uh Greg uh Clerk of the Year pulled it up already before we can even say it's uh it's another ordinance that's on the books that is uh very outdated and we're just trying to clean it up so it's a repeal of this ordinance um it's not relevant to us anymore wonderful uh any questions on the tax collector uh ordinance ordinance on the tax collector report okay tax accessor we have another uh resolution that's planned that's and we've talked about that one in exec previously they're just putting it on here bookmark for uh the next meeting unless there's any questions on it again but if you got Direction on how to proceed wonderful so I will open our second hearing of citizens got to wake them up now we do have one hand raised okay thank you okay Mr car uh good evening once again Stuart car from Three Crestwood Drive in chadam Township New Jersey uh comment on the Oprah uh item for the attorney's comment a minute ago again sorry to be direct I apologize but things like this issue on the uh fee shifting what they could be doing and what we should be recommending is that the losing party will pay like the municipality okay but if the request is found to be correct but actually a fishing Expedition or fress etc etc then in that exceptional Circumstance the attorneys for the plaintiff uh Victory party would not be getting their uh Revenue would not be getting their fees so the idea is again it would be the plaintiff wins unless they do something that's frivolous as opposed to the judge has pure discretion and the only way the plaintiff gets paid PL of attorney is if we see this uh egregious Mal feasance on the part of the municipality because again there is a cost I don't mind paying the cost let's buy another another clerk pay another 100 Grand to have the uh actual Oprah request met appropriately but the idea of losing the public information accountability with the excuse of we're spending more money as taxpayer dollars is not a worthwhile tradeoff I don't believe okay we're losing a lot more versus what we're gaining and the excuse is well we have to use a lot of time we have to use a lot of effort of people and effort and all that let's just pay for it and frankly a lot of that information as I said before if it was put on the website in the first place we wouldn't have to have the Oprah requests because this stuff is public information okay so let's just please keep that in mind and again um probably too late for that but what what can we do it's just again please have the attorney or somebody who explain this stuff in a little bit more clarity in terms of what the tradeoffs are we're a little bit better tonight thank you for that but again the taint has to be toward you being dearies and representing the people as opposed to administrators and clerks and County government and whomever else who does have unfortunately a selfish interest in just marginally less transparency and accountability you as local elected officials who are not career politicians have to be our Fue sheries and really be vigilant about opposing this unless you're completely comfortable I'm still not there yet but at least we had a little bit of progress tonight so I appreciate your time to listen to my belly aching over the last few weeks hopefully Thursday and Monday will come out somewhat favorably but again I would encourage you to please tell your uh legislators both on Democrat and Republican side that you really want to make sure we continue transparency and by doing the fee shifting uh item is really really going in the wrong direction hopefully I'm inside three minutes Mr lante so again thank you and thank you for your patience and have a good evening thank you thank you for hanging in there too okay anything else any other uh no that was the only HS okay then I will close the hearing of citizens and I will take a motion to adour so moved you have a second I will second that all in favor I thank you have a good night good night everybody never been