##VIDEO ID:mpnmXIZS-yk## e e evening everyone sorry s good evening ladies and gentlemen it's uh 7 o'cl on Tuesday August 13th it's time to call this meeting of the choun Conservation Commission to order um we will be following the published and posted agenda this meeting is both in person and in zoom on the zoom in case of the zoom not working properly we will continue the meeting uh here in person only uh this meeting is being broadcast and recorded by CHS Tel media and will be available on their website and on YouTube uh just a note that we are missing our amazing minutes taker Vivian tonight she is going to be taking uh the minutes from the video so please speak into the microphone please make sure your microphone's set up good um if you're sitting in the rows and you want to talk please come to the microphone and if one of us has to correct you don't take it offensive but we need the minutes so just make sure that we do that um couple other notes one is um ten hildr is on our agenda but there has been a request by the applicant to uh to continue it without any discussion so you that will be that will likely be the result so if you're here for the ten hildr uh uh hearing that is not going to happen tonight thank you and then um I also would like to take a motion on moving the right reservation discussion to the end of the regulatory hearing in yeah Mr chairman I I move that we move the right reservation hearing the RDA hearing until the end of the meeting the end of the hearing section end of the hearing regular okay motion from Chris second second from John uh all in favor I I okay thank you so we will do that at the end um citizen concerns so if there's anyone here that has some kind of a concern that they'd like to bring to the commission that is not on the agenda and something that's uh cut to your attention and you like to bring to our attention uh please come on up or on the zoom I don't think there's anyone on the zoom so some yeah you you can come up to the please your name and I'm John Ray at uh 20 uh 222 223 in Hill Road um I apologize Carl I just found out about an hour ago about this information so I couldn't get it to you ahead of time but I'm aware that the conservation committee commission is preparing a uh draft presentation draft restriction for coolest fun a conservation restriction that will be yeah we'll be doing that that that's going to take like a year but yes oh it's going to take a year I'm yep okay all of them it's aware I had asked Paul if I could be participate in that uh okay we'll give that some consideration y okay now I'm again I'm fairly new to this town I've only been here 17 years so I'm I'm a newbie um before we do a restriction aren't we supposed to do a uh Baseline study there's a lot of steps to be done yes there's a whole thank you very much yeah we yeah we have uh we've just gone through this with the Warren pole site and it's we're still not done after four years I don't think it will take us this long on the coolest I certainly hope but it it is many steps involved in the process of getting it to meet the requirements of the acquisition through the community preservation act that's the main again anything I can do to help yep not obstruction yep but anything I can do to help thanks John thanks appreciate it do we have another just on that comment just maybe we could get John's uh full name and address we did John Ray got his address too John Ray 223 Pine Hill 223 223 Pine Hill okay thank you John thanks Chris double checking so next up first on our um list of citizen of open session uh actually uh David do you want to start uh we have uh Mr Dutra Botello talking about 60 Hunt Road so um Commissioners may recall that Dutra was here back on June 25th um uh he he described what he wants to do he wants to uh do some regrading of his uh backyard to make it more uh conducive to use by his kids in particular um so sub subsequent to that meeting I went out and did a site visit where he he showed me um again exactly where he W to work um so you know it's it's a good 40 feet at least from the wetlands he doesn't want to cut any vegetation he's not doing any digging so in my opinion this qualifies as a minor activity that he doesn't have to file for um it's it's it's converting long to lawn um and he's you know he he uh understands the need to do erosion control um you know to put up some kind of an erosion control barrier um uh between the wetlands and where he's working um that's all he'd be required to do it was a filing anyway so I don't think he needs to file on this one so if I understand it right he's essentially got a lawn now and he's going to build up the lawn higher he's not disturbing by digging right right no no no digging no cutting education it's it's just he's he's working within Laine making it more Lev right yes any other comments or questions from anyone else on the commission you comfortable with the wetlands yes yeah hey sounds good to me too Peter you okay yes okay should we just should we take a vote or just uh let I don't I don't think you need to a vote since I think this qualifies as a minor activity but you know it's up to you yeah I'm I'm good with that so so get the or control installed do turn give me a call come over and take a quick look at it okay thank you guys thank you and thank you for coming in and asking I appreciate it thank you that's the right way to do it ask the question okay next up uh we have Attorney John Cox representing the owner of uh map 12 block 29 lot five uh requests for feedback on waivers under the chancelor wetlands bylaw for proposed new house construction this is if I remember right this is up in the Russell Road car path area up on the Freeman Lake uh CU we had a similar uh few few months ago we had a a hearing in that neighborhood so good evening good evening Mr chairman members of the board my name is Attorney John Cox 375 gorm Street law Massachusetts I represent Dylan Lee who current who lives and has lived for the last three years or so at 20 Russell Road uh um he also owns the property at for Russell Road with me today is Matt Hammer the engineer on the project uh we met about a month or so ago with Mr Coons and Mr balansky uh to kind of uh bring this idea to the town um and um after that meeting we felt it was a good idea to come uh before the board and I thank Mr Coons for his guidance in this to get us on the agenda here for an informal discussion with the board and hopefully get some um some feedback from the board I mean we're here basically to see if this is a plan that uh that this board would uh would support at some point and or maybe give us some guidance as to how to make it a better plan uh we think it's a unique situation we will be requesting a waiver from the uh from the chumford U Wetland bylaw we think it's a very unique situation Matt will go into it in a lot more detail uh but um the lot that uh we're talking about here uh at uh at for uh Russell Road uh Mr um Lee would like to build a modest uh 1300 ft home single family home there um uh as you'll note from the plan and Matt will get into the details I'm sure there is an ex existing there is an existing structure there it has been there for quite some time there is a uh a light uh a u utility uh post on the property there is water and sewer uh already existing to the property and clearly um between this property and Freeman Lake uh there's a road a developed Road um so we don't think that um we would be uh adversely affecting the wetlands which clearly is the is the goal of the of the Wetland protection act Wetland protection act not to adversely affect the Wetland um we think it's a it's a great uh proposal um get another more housing in the town although it be a single family home still something uh and it's a huge lot as uh as Matt will go over so without getting into uh all the details and I know Matt will and I guy know this is just a discussion and uh we're clearly not looking we're looking for feedback from the board and and and we're hoping that the board can give us some ideas again as to how to make uh this plan even better so we can come back at some point and and uh and ask for an order of conditions and go forward with whatever other boards we need to go through clearly zoning board planning board I'm sure here in the town so with that Matt te it off and uh take it through uh the engineering aspect of it is there a I think you're good there I can hold this up no I think you just leave it right there I think okay so that'll pick up my voice is this an okay place for the presentation board yeah I think so okay great so this is a unique situation uh where we have a a roadway infrastructure um which is Russell Road that is here and there's numerous homes on Russell Road some on on the the Freeman Lakes side of the road as well as these homes that are directly uh on the other side of the the road and they're all similar in the way they're the lot size and the area that they have to develop and they also have a wetland behind the homes I'm sure some of the commission members may recall some of the um filings that I've been involved with with just doing minor improvements to those homes which at the time was more specific to the Wetland that's directly behind um the home so this is the lot this is Russell Road and these are the existing homes there I'm going to show you a plan I'm going I have a couple plans I want to show you but this is this is a plan here which kind of gives you an overview of the parcel here uh the wetlands were delineated by Norse environmental out of um they used to be out of Tings Boro they're in drit now that Wetland line is represented here we've also surveyed the um the bank to the uh Lake this shows in Gray the roadway and there's a whole Myriad of um uh uh infrastructure that comes with Russell Road to service all the hom homes uh you have underground uh sewer you have a a water main you have um overhead utilities and you have the roadway and Russell Road is a a private road with the utilities uh maintained by the town uh there's also an easement that actually encroaches onto our lot because Russell Road itself as the roadway part is actually on our parcel that's this plan this is the existing building here this has all been maintained essentially as a a grass area and then there's uh brush vitation that's located here and I'll show you that in a um in a um in a better scale so attorney Cox asked me the color the plan because there's a lot of lines on the plan um and I know it looks confusing but I'm going to work through those lines here's the delineated Wetland here this in red is the existing structure this is a tree line here this is all grassed here here's Russell Road the pavement utilities are not colored but what else also is colored is the um the setbacks per the the chelsford bylaw in Orange is the um the no disturb Zone 25 ft um you have your 30 foot impervious which is this green line here and then you have your 50ft no building um which is represented in this uh chartreuse highlighted line here so if you were to take the setback from the the Wetland behind that's where those extend to and then what happened was is we we started the process by determining does the lot have utilities to service the lot and we we came to come find out that the the lot is serviced by sewer water and electricity met with the building department briefly and that would be a minimum to suffice to actually have a buildable lot as we know that the the town has a sewer moratorium so if you want to do a new LW you would need to have a septic system but in this case where this is a Redevelopment where we have existing utilities that service the lot it would be a Redevelopment of the parcel itself so that moratorium issue doesn't come into effect because the Sewer Service provides that as a grandfathered service for the parcel itself so then our next phase was to sit down with the town Municipal uh departments uh in this case it was uh Evan balansky with the planning department as well as Mr Coons with the Conservation Commission and we walked through the plan and what came up at that meeting was that we felt as though that that the proposed building in terms of where it was located out um um outside of the no disturb was further away from the existing structure to the Wetland in the back that we felt as though there was a mechanism for the Conservation Commission to approve that reduced um distance from the Wetland in the rear for a redeveloped building but what we didn't take into count is that if you take an offset from Freeman Lake that now comes 50 ft over into this area and that's a new setback above and beyond this setback here so that's when we realized that we might have a problem but we felt as though that the the commission may have run into this before and we felt as though coming before the commission to take a look at maybe some prior filings that might have had a similar circumstance that where this property with the infrastructure of the road the infrastructure of the utilities and then you have Freeman Lake on the other side that the Redevelopment of this property would in no way adversely affect Freeman Lake itself why because we we're not going to be taking down any trees we're going to be developing on a previously developed lot the lot service with utilities and we have the infrastructure separating us from the Wetland on the other side so we felt as though we should come in before the commission and get the commission's view generally as to how they feel about that circumstance and whether a waiver per the section 3.1 of your uh Wetlands bylaw would be applicable in this particular circumstance before we even go any further with this uh development if I may Mr chairman just I would like to add one thing Mr Lee um has talked to his neighbors on on Russell Road and um I think some of them are even here this evening uh and I according to Mr Lee no no one has would object to this as far as these direct Neighbors on on Russell Road and I'm going to add one more thing when we were looking at this property we were looking at um something similar to what you Trend now are are these tiny homes you've been hearing about so we're saying what is the minimum siiz home that we could put on the parcel and I had done this home in Newberry that had close proximity to the um to what they call the Basin in Newbery and this is a 26x 272 foot uh dwelling where in this particular case this is open underneath where you would park and this is a 26x 272 um foot home it's approximately uh uh 1,400 Square ft to 1500 square ft in size and it's a very uh small modest uh home that we would be proposing on this structure I mean on this proper and we're looking for feedback from the commission as the help they feel about this okay uh you're you're all set yes okay uh John comments yeah yeah I don't know where to start with this one okay that's all right we can come back to you yeah but I mean is this the the little white house as you drive in Russell Road uh I don't remember exactly but it's it's on the left when you on the left the yeah this is where the we had the big one built on the hill right right further up the road right up up the road few years ago yeah right so let's keep in mind this is not a hearing right so uh it's just a discussion and I don't want to spend too much time on this but uh so it's the it's the first one on the left it's this whole big blue thing yeah that's the whole lot that's a shed the that shed right all right okay yep so that is that the structure you're replacing is the shed correct there's no house there now there's no no house no no there's a structure it would be I described as a shed is there a foundation I don't know is there a foundation I I'm not sure about that I believe that there's some structural support underneath to hold the shed or or what I would say it's more of a a barn to some degree because the lot is service with sewer water and electricity um so it's beyond what I would consider just a tool shed okay where on that lot is the would that house be the new house the proposed house the proposed house here I show where the existing structure is right here in red and then we would be pulling it back to this location here I'd like to see show show maybe can show that I'm sorry yeah it's hard to see so the the new building would be going right here yes where the shed is where the just in front of it behind where it is yes in front of it in front of where the shed is between the shed and the and Russell Road okay and then we would take the shed obviously would be removed we would revegetate that area and restore that that area so there would be a net benefit to the Wetland behind an improvement now is there any drainage coming off gron road onto that yeah the most certainly is um it it and it basically goes into this are do you have catch from the catch basins or from just runoff from just runoff from gron road but it does not go over the lot and then over Russell Road and then into the lake you got a sidewalk and a curb Granite curb on the side of the of gron Road yes you do and then you got a steep hill that goes down to that lot that's right um but what I can say is if you if you utilize flow through Foundation which would be on peers mhm then you don't run into that potential issue of um of a a flooding issue if in if in fact that wetland in the back was to was to raise an elevation but what I can say I I'm sure the commission knows this is Freeman Lake area is all sand and essentially whatever the the elevation is in Freeman lake is the elevation of the Wetland in the back and that water is flow throughing uh by virtue of the sand substrate equally and we know that the water is essentially 2 ft below grade right yeah yeah so your other issue was set back from the lake you got Wetlands on one side and the lake on the other so you squished between the two right so what wavers are you looking for from both sides from the Freeman Lake Side from the Freeman Lake Side you want what wave are you it would be a waiver from the 50t um no bilding how close how close are we talking um we're going to be approximately 45 ft but you need it on the other side as well the other side we're going to need it as well but it's going to be less than what the existing one is and we're going to be um 30 ft from the uh Wetland to meet that impervious setback as well so it's really I would say it's really three waivers uh no build from two Wetlands plus the impervious the 30 foot impervious two from the backside and one on from the lake right yes yeah good u i I can't I can add this also is this driveway here that would be servicing the the building could be a porest driveway as well so that that could function as a um uh an improvement to the drainage by having the water just go right through there would you be adding to the elevation on no we will not add to the elevation it's going to stay the same stay at the same elevation now we there's some issues with uh neighbors around there with water oh yeah right yeah we've gone through that where is that what have we ever determined what the cause of I know what the cause of that is is those bu buildings did not take into account how high the groundwater was to the basements and the um in the uh garages which houses are the ones that are Ed by the by that just about all of them that were over you know 50 years constructed not the ones on Russell but behind it right the ones on Russell are just all the ones on Russell yeah they really needed how about the house behind the on grotten road I I don't know anything about the house on ground that ABS the back side if they're up gradient they're that much higher above but that Wetlands isn't pushing up towards their houses no it does it it's contained within the area behind these homes on this lot yeah okay I'm all call Mark uh behind the Wetland area looking for relief from what kind of wetland is that is that a how would you describe it as being an engineer it's a has it been determined at all what it is are you it's it's it's an isolated land subject to flooding I haven't done the Cel of the 1 qu in acre calculation on it uh but we would most certainly provide that calculation for the notice of intent filing but that's my understanding that it's going to potentially meet that requirement would would any of that structure change the function on that Wetland uh no no because we would be talking about um probably 10 Sonic um foundations for the columns and it would not well that's going to be a substructure is going to be on Sonic Loops that's correct okay I missed that sorry but the the the um the Watershed for the lake is massive so the no I I get that yeah so so putting some sauna tubes uh to support the uh the home would not it wouldn't even be a calable difference in the um in the groundwater I I guess uh my concern is that we prior plans we've we've refused them because of the wet lens and we don't really know what that wet lens is in the back of the structure uh let's put it this way it it would either be an isolated land subject to flooding or would be a non-jurisdictional isolated Wetland either way still would have the same setbacks you're talking about under the wetlands protection act it might correct certainly jurisdictional under the local bylaw right if it was not an isolated land subject to flooding it could be a non-jurisdictional wetland but still subject to the wetlands bylaw the characteristics that it's water all year round it's not a you know there used to be farming back here from my understanding you know in the summertime people would actually do some minor farming back there because it dri but you know like I said when the when the lake goes down and um you know that area dries up a bit but when the lake you know when you go from uh September to April May I'm just trying to in my own mind to find if it's a Vernal pool it's not a Vernal pool we we we've had nor environmental look at that to determine that it does not have a Vernal it's not a Vernal pool that's my understanding so we would also provide that information in the filing as well if it was a Vernal pool then that Vernal pool section would have to be identified and the actual Vernal pool would be protected but this is not Vernal here I get that's good for now Chris yeah I mean I guess you're looking for some feedback I mean I know this commission historically takes a hard look at requests for waivers uh we generally um we take a really close look at them and in general I mean I think we're uh occasionally we'll make some exceptions but we we really balanced the you know the the hardship to the applicant kind of versus the public good and and we look closely at you know the the resources that are involved and the uh the benefit of the resources and the quality of the resources and the impact they've got on the environment so um I mean I certainly couldn't make any commitment tonight at all because we would really something like this we'd want to go through the full process have our you know agent do a detailed review probably have maybe a peer review done as well so we really can understand what we're voting on but um you know that's kind of it I mean it's um you know we' have to take as one commissioner take a good look at it and try to make a judgment after we got all the the data in and kind of take it from there that's kind of all I could say for now that's that's very fair and that's clear clearly what we're hoping for and and uh feedback from the commission and continual um communication with the commission to try to maybe make this even better if possible but clearly we appreciate that Peter so here's an idea to make it better um Courtney I'm glad you're here we don't need to spend a lot of time on what I'm about to say um the town is spending uh what Courtney 50 Grand on doing a study of the water quality in the lake I'm just throwing this out there this may be a crazy idea and let's not spend any time on it um when I've talked to our DPW director she has said to me one of the one of the challenges of the lake the weeds and the pollution of the lake one of the challenges is runoff from the road Route 40 and our DPW director has mentioned to me casually I don't think there's any studies been done that it's difficult to find a physical location for any sort of roadway runoff infiltration to get it out of the lake which is a town objective so I just throw that out there I haven't thought about this at all and I don't know if there's anything you could do on this project but that would be a heck of a win-win if in fact somehow within this project design you could get a benefit for the lake to I don't want to say offset other negative benefits because I don't know if there are negative benefits you make a good case but I'll throw that out there I appreciate idea something we'll definitely look at yes yeah I mean we most certainly could uh meet with the Department of Public Works uh the town Engineers um and uh take a look at this area here which you know could be utilized as a benefit for some pre-treatment and see if there's a way to uh provide some improvements yeah and um that's very um reasonable because this essentially this land is not being used for anything and U if if it could help we would most certainly do that yeah and if it's helpful to save you and your client that cost um Courtney or I could simply ask our DPW director if this is even remotely worth a meeting because I I don't have any knowledge I don't know if this would be an opportunity or not I would be very interested in that information clearly you know thank again I don't know how my fellow Commissioners feel to me we're trying to talk about compromises yeah absolutely example yeah thank you so I think you've got feedback and I'm going to I'm going to just chime in I'm I'm right with Chris on this you know for us to to give a waiver I have to see a really good reason for a waiver I'm not sure I'm seeing it here um so that's just kind of you're looking for feedback that's kind of where I'm at at the moment anything else anybody want to add anything John you want to add more well now that I see this plan uh if if you can get that thing moved around you know on the land you're talking replacing taking a shed down and putting a house up I thought you were taking a house down mhm that's how it was sort of presented at first but you know you get it further away from the lake and everything else come in here with a real plan and then we'll have to look at it you know this is all yeah smoking marrow right now they're just looking for feedback though yeah exactly exactly we appreciate that yep I think it's obvious why it's wasn't developed all these years yeah yeah well it is it is pinched it's pinched in there there's no doubt you got a wetland in the back and you got a a body of water in the front so it's a huge lot obviously yeah and I and I felt as though this project was very unique in the way that the the town considered it a buildable lot in the way that they provided the sewer in the water if it didn't have sewer in the water in the in the electrical provided to the lot we wouldn't be here even having the discussion um so we were hoping maybe there's some precedent somewhere else in town um and it is a unique piece of property that's all so I yeah clearly we can't give you any commitment we'd have to see a lot more nor are we looking for one I think you got a sense of it I'd like to keep moving here soate appreciate itk for your time thank you very much appreciate the is like the neigh I think so yeah it's on the hearing okay uh so we're going to keep moving on here next one here is uh this one's another uh request from Bob mccrensky with Hancock building request for relief from Wetland delineation for proposed addition at 4 East Shepard Lane we have Mr kensky here I guess here I guess here oh okay but he understood come tonight okay and we'll keep moving here uh Chris lavali do we have a report from the planning board liaison good evening Chris L Valley planning board uh leison um so the last meeting we had at the planning board was quite a while ago um it was July 10th um the night after you guys had your last one um our main focus of that meeting was uh the hildr hearing that we had um we had seen the plans that you were presented the night before um and we had feedback to them about being a little bit disappointed in uh talking about waivers for the street uh in order to get the um the project out of Conservation Commission jurisdiction and um what we saw at that meeting was that it didn't quite um reach that goal uh so we gave them that feedback to potentially come back uh with different plans we did also look at the storm water uh plans at a high level uh with respect to the monitoring Wells and the past levels um that were found and the water flows um but that was prior to the peer review uh that was released uh fairly recently um so we didn't get into that detail yet our next meeting is on the 28th um which is the night after your next one in a couple weeks and we have hildr on the agenda um so we'll be discussing I'm assuming potentially revised plans Andor storm water and then also we'll be talking about proposal for um that the Board of Health is is coming forward with uh for a gap analysis for the um the uh uh aquafer protection regulations um so we'll be taking a look at that draft proposal as well okay that's it question thank you Chris uh the Gap analysis do you know do we know if our commission will be invited to participate I I don't think it's part of our Charter to be I mean we could ask I suppose do you know David um well I think the commission will be asked to submit comments you know um I don't know if it's going to be you know how general or specific they're going to be but that's my understanding commission will be giving an opport will be given an opportunity to provide some kind of input I can look into that and just to State the obvious three of the eight interests were supposed to protect prevent pollution um protect groundw and protect drinking water three of those eight of our interest are we kind of rely on this process y by other Town departments I would Advocate we at least have a chance to do something to help out and I believe if we are reviewing it it'll be attached to our agenda um at the very least thank you so thanks yep thanks Chris appreciate it next we are moving to the DPW 1 and three Hugo Lane 10 12 and 14 State Street we are being uh we have Miss hello Courtney Thompson from the town of Cher DPW a you notice sorry right legal can you read that Chris yes that uh pursuant to the provisions of the Massachusetts Wetlands protection act Mass general laws chapter 131 section 40 and the Json Wetlands bylaw chapter 187 the chns Conservation Commission will conduct a public Hearing in room 204 at 50 biller Road on Tuesday August 13th at 7:05 p.m. to consider the notice of intent filed by the town of chelon DBW puru to drainage easement rights held by the town of chood for proposed work within bordering vegetated Wetlands at 1 and three Hugo Lane 10 12 14 State Street further identify as the Cs map 114 block 424 Lots 10 and 7 map 114 block 424 Lots 12 16 18 respectively the project entails replacement of an existing undersized 10in pipe with 15in hdp pipe replacement of an existing CMP pipe section with HDPE and Rapid flow relining of an existing pipe Mr chairman back to you thank you Chris appreciate it hello Courtney hi how's it going good um yeah so um the project area um is basically the section of Hugo and State Street um there's an area here that a pipe was replaced and a 10 in undersized pipe was put in there it's caused some issues so so that's the blue that's the blue line um so we'd like to replace that with a 15inch pipe which would be the correct size pipe then up at the top that little orange section or yellow section is um currently corrugated metal pipe while we're in there we'd like to replace that with the same size um hdp pipe and then that large line is actually not going to be uh disturbing any any land at all we're just going to uh fit that section of pipe with we're going to relign it so it'll be about a half inch smaller but we'll actually allow more flow because of the properties of plastic over the corrugated metal uh water flow better so that won't we won't be digging anything up there um in addition uh to that we will after our site visit there with with David yesterday uh we will be putting in approximately a 10t wide sell around that Center catch Basin um kind of where the Blue Line meets the red line um and kind of up the Blue Line a bit just to to go with the natural grade and encourage water towards that catch Basin um we also all excavated soil for the project will be kept on site and used as back fill and we will replant the Wetland once work has been completed and we we plan to do the work dur during dry weather okay so I think that's more or less the gist of it that's great David do you want to provide opening comments uh sure um so um I I I don't see really major uh issues with this um it's just it's a temporary uh disturbance to the Wetland So the plan will be uh just to uh a dig out the area where the current pipe is um and uh then store store the soil on site and then put the plant in then back fill the soil um or back fill the trench with the soil that was taken out of it uh followed by planting of a of a wetland a seed mix um just to to restore it vegetatively it's it's temporary uh disturbance no Wetland replication is required um in in speaking with a number of the abuts um to the site um they have said that ever ever since the the work was done you know two years ago or whatever it was to put in the wrongly sized pipe um that the area has flooded uh more than it it used to and so that's why I I suggested to DPW um to uh put put in put in a sale um this is not the right version of the plan I apologize Courtney thought I had pulled that up but but yeah the latest version of the pl you show me does show the proposed Swale uh up in this area to um to try and bring it it bring it back as as close as possible to uh the pre-existing conditions I I gather one of the abuts Paul Paul RoR if he's here hi hi Paul so so I so I gather you you um maybe I misunderstood this you actually found a plan the original plan showing the the location of the sale or do I have that wrong getic survey charts so if you could email that to me I I think that would help um it's it might take a little bit of experimentation you know might be it might be you know putting something in see how that works and maybe having to fine-tune it you know adjust it a little bit you know at the same time the wetlands have to be preserved but I think I think it's a reasonable thing to try to do um you know to to bring it back to the way it originally was okay Peter uh Courtney question I heard you say replication David I heard you say no replication well there's no Wetland replication it's it's it it's really just if you call it anything it's restoration got it after the temporary disturbance got it uh my only question Carl thank you okay Chris my my comment is just I I hope this really makes a difference and we see things improve out there so that's that's my own comment you know we want things to be a lot better yeah Mark do you expect any dewatering um no right now it's really dry out there so hopefully that will continue to be the case I we don't have a plan for dewatering right now we we definitely intend to do it during dry weather so this a sh ready if you get to go ahead um yeah I think so I'm not sure what the schedule L would be exactly but I think that we plan to do it you know um we expect to be back here at the next hearing after we get uh the state's comments and if everything goes well I think we plan to to be out there the first week in September yeah you don't have a d number yet no no have you submitted it to the state um no it needs to be submitted to the state so um you need to do that ASAP I mean we we should have a number then by the next meeting um you you you do have the pipe in yeah right you have the pipe so sorry Mark we interrupted you uh no uh that's all I have Bill no questions well I'm good with it uh so you do this during uh during dry yeah dry season um no D number okay um any other commission questions before we open it to the public like to hear what the public I would just like to hear what the public has to say yeah so Courtney if you could step back and we'll see if anybody in the public has some comments and great input appreciate it hello can you please state your name and address good evening Mr chairman and members of the board my name is Lynn Havener I live at seven noble drive you can see it's the lower right lower left um I'm here on behalf of my husband Michael who is out of state right now as well as all of the residents who live on Noble drive with odd number addresses who will be impacted by this project first let me state that both my husband and I support our State Street and Hugo Lane Neighbors in their Endeavors to correct any water problems they may have on their properties I'm here to discuss the impact that it will occur that will occur to Noble driver people bear with me on a little background here we purchased seven noble Drive in the fall of 1989 and our plot plan indicated that our backyard property was in the middle of what used to be noted as a drainage easement in late fall of 1989 in an effort to keep the easement flowing and clear the DPW widened the area from three Noble drive to its end at Lord Road using a small back ho at least along the properties 5 7 9 and 11 Noble Drive they cleared the noble dri side embankment and put all of the dirt onto the Freeman roadside two additional DPW clearings over the years have done the same thing taking Land from the noble Drive side and adding it to the Freeman Road properties who are us from behind probably because this side had less brush buildup and was easier to clear additionally with buildings of SE several years ago of a large apartment complex in North Bela right behind Bishop Street in chelsford the drainage easement in our backyard has significantly changed what used to run dry in the summer is now always full of water what is most worrisome is the amount of water that is Flowing at a high rate after any minor storm this used to only be seen during something as dramatic as a tropical storm this combination of the dpws moving Our Land and the water erosion that has caused us to lose at least 10 ft of usable land along our back property border this is visible when you look at the drainage pipes that come from the roads the pipe from the Freeman Road is now almost buried and the one coming from Noble Drive sticks out several feet whereas it used to be buried decades ago when we moved in my neighbor at five Noble Drive had a land survey done two years ago and it's now noted that his property is on the other side of the easement by several feet I myself have two permitted structures on my property a shed in the back corner has seen the land behind it reduced by over 10 ft the fence around my inground pool has been fixed this past summer as it was starting to fall backwards due to erosion behind it the area behind my pool has been spared from some of the erosion thanks to suggestion by this Committee in 2012 when we came before you for a permit we added at our own expense rip wrap and it has slowed but not completely stopped the erosion problem and now the DPW has a proposal to change a drain from 10 in to 15 in it may not seem like a lot and bear with me I work at McCarthy and math um but it changing the pipe opening cross-sectional area changes it from 78.5 Square in to 176.50 square in so the pipe will be more than twice the size in carrying capacity for water that additional water of course can cause even more erosion in our backyards Noble Drive neighbors have already been discussing this erosion issue for the past few months and trying to decide how best to approach the DPW so this meeting is a timely way for us to voice Our concern concern over our land loss I am asking that should the project move forward its scope needs to be broadened to include clude the restoration or at least the preservation of noble Drive residents land this has been done with some limited success using rip wrap on my own property at my own expense and I implore the DPW to address the erosion issue farther down the Project's line by providing and implementing an adequate solution to this erosion problem thank you very much thank you anyone else hello how you doing Greg Anderson 14 State Street Courtney can you confirm that no digging will happen on the red line and also can you scroll down and tell us what the Orange Line means um yeah yes no digging will be done on the red line that red line will simply be a a slightly smaller pipe will be slid in there um to prevent that current pipe from deterior iting um which Orange Line are you this is this red or is this orange that's the red line that's where they'll be know there will be no digging along this line thank you I just have another I'm sorry I'll wait till public next good evening Mr chairman and board members my name is alen hway I live at One Hugo Lane uh 50-year resident of chelon and I'm part of the water pooling problem one of the things one of my biggest concern was I never received this notice and I had the biggest water problem along with Paul at 3 I picked it up this afternoon for David C and my wife had heard from a neighbor that the mailman got him and was set to just distribute him somehow I didn't receive a certified letter and I don't know why this happened because I'm one of the ab butas and I I think the communication could have been better on this you you might still get it you know it might be the post office's fault but that's one reason why hearing open is just in case there are others like you who have not okay so one of my concerns and uh probably Paul's are the same this has been going on for two years because the previous administration of the storm waterer division thought they could handle a small breakage in a pipeline on Paul RoR property that was creating a sinkhole by creating attaching a new pipeline to the existing when they couldn't and they dug everything up they said it was like swiss cheese all the pipes so one of the things I could never understand two years later cuz Paul had reiterated the were drawings on file how did no one know that 15inch pipe should have been in there to begin with when there's 15inch pipes that were put on on the other side in 1980 uh my wife took that c i because we used to have water flow to the storm water would recede in the back come in the backyard recede into the storm drain and go away then they had to put in these larger pipes bigger storm drain and everything was fine so when they part of the whole problem was from the beginning the storm Water Division thought that they could handle this on their own and it turned out they could and then we found out that engineering and conservation nobody knew that this was going on I'm talking about not this administration of sto the previous one people have retired since this all happened and so they replaced the pipes they put in a pile of top soils to and they created a mount and it drained in my back leard flooded his backyard this has been two years and then people have come and say what's going on in your backyard why isn't it flooding why isn't it draining so it's come up and you you talk about the wetlands but it's actually come up on my property and some of the wetlands vegetation is grown when we use the mow so I hope when they fix this which I think you had alluded to this yesterday David that they remark the wetlands because where it's marked now part of that is really my property that I've lost that we used to be able to mow so I know this is a big project but I would hope like when you build a structure on your house that would be sight in inspection to different stages so that people know the right side pipes were in and everything else and not just fill in the soil and hope everything is right hoping that engineering conservation storm water everybody's there at the same time because maybe somebody would have noticed this because now it's costing you more town and expense the neighbors are all in UPR because there's always trucks coming in and out and I've been here 50 years and never called you people for anything so I hope this is done right and it's worked as a team effort and if somebody one part of the team doesn't know what to do that they consult with other people and not just go ahead and hope that it works because it's been a real mess and it looks ugly and if I was to try to sell my house when it rained all this time in the spring you could have swam in it so that's all I have to say I just hope going forward that it's the last time they have to come in and that people really all the parties involved take a hard look at this and at each stage make sure it's right and not just covered up with soil and hope it's it's going to work and that it's tested right because I know you have robotic cameras and other type things and I know everybody's making a considered effort but as a homeowner it bothers me because I try to take care of my property and paid what thousands of dollars in taxes I've been here 50 years and I won't be here another 50 so I hope it's done before that so I thank you for your time and trouble thank you message received thanks anyone else okay um so uh David do you know if if anything on the noble Road Noble Drive side has been included in any of this discussion uh I don't believe so but um what I wanted to ask Courtney Courtney M could you just just sort of point out where where the inlet and discharge points are for for the work uh that's being proposed right now uh the catch Basin are the inlet are the inlets right I I believe the Outlet is down Bishop Street but I would have to check that so and worrying um one of the concerns I know is about increasing the um pipe capacity about two years ago whenever the project was done incorrectly that is when the pipe size changed from 15 to 10 so previous to that previous to a lot of this issues the pipe size has off was 15 and should like but there's no discharge on the State Street noal Drive I don't believe so i' I'd have to to double check our GPS I speak to that so the flow actually goes from uh Sand's place which is in shown through the State Street Properties behind Noble drive and Freeman is on the other side of that down to Lord and eventually fills out at um Russell Mill the pond down there okay go that way so so I think we're at a point where we we know we're going to have to continue this there's more to be done here we get any of that was just thank you could you come up and just repeat uh as I said earlier for the record our our wonderful minutes taker is going to be listening to so tell us again how the hi ly Haven our seven noble Drive um if I can point out on the map would that work better sure I think so well you know if you just talk to it okay if you just talk to so we live on Noble Drive the water is Flowing from the lowest place in the neighborhood is s's place which I don't know it's shown on that map and it flows behind State Street and that's State Street in Hugo are the people having the problems and then it flows across underneath State Street behind Noble Drive underneath Lord Road and works its way to mil Pond but but that's you're saying that's surface runoff because that's not going through the pipe that surface and that's the problem that we're having is we don't have any kind of reinforcement all we have is dirt got and the DPW and I don't fault the DPW for trying to keep an easement open but they keep taking it from our side so that's one way that we're losing the other way is the increase in water flow that we've seen over the years not just because of that but because of some other issues our land is being eroded okay my backyard is going away my neighbor's backyards are going away and that was not addressed and nobody on Noble Drive received any notice ification about this either and I'm not sure that we were even mentioned as an impact okay which is why I bring it to your attention thank you um certified mail did go out to the butters on Noble drive as well so I'm not sure what happened with that I have the certified mail receipts but um this should not increase I mean we could look at into it further but this should not in increased surface water flow to Noble drive if anything it should slow that down because we're trying to keep the water in this wetland in this drainage area more efficiently than than it uh continuing and running out over that street and I I have to look into the drainage line further it's not completely shown on this map but I believe it collects water then goes down stand's place and continues uh North on Bishop Street that's what it looks like initially there that I think you're right that that makes sense but I would have to look into that further I don't know off the top of my head exactly will this new plan delete the elements of swes would they having run off in um no no this is not going to adjust any SS this is not going to get rid of ss that were there the only sale that where the only sale that is being affected at all is an area where right now if you walk you can see hard erosion ripping through to that yeah right where you are to that catch Basin so this sale will just work with natural grade just a small 10 foot wide is approximate sale would work with the natural gray to try and help that water get there without disturbing that Wetland without causing erosion So So the plan would be to put it into this catch Basin yeah right here and then it'll go flow down here it's not going to go in any other direction right yeah it would not impact uh if anything would decrease the surface water flow that continued to Noble yeah okay okay Sans is uphill in that direction this is piped it's um a piped outfall so it's not going to be surface water it's the way the pipe is pitched underground so um it would it it would be slightly graded and then uh the Swale to encourage water going into that catch Basin instead of continuing along the surface down and and when the new pipe is installed you're going to carefully monitor that that's at the correct grade yeah right yes Peter do you have another question um yes Courtney so is it correct to say the project we're reviewing today which is this project I mean it's connected to the rest of the water in town but we're looking at this one project is it safe to say that dpw's best judgment is this project would actually reduce the water causing these other problems yes yes that the neighbors are so we concerned we haven't I don't know how much we've looked into Noble drive but it is our it is our belief that this would reduce surface water from continuing on past this designated Wetland area this is supposed this aims to manage the water that's entering the area and encourage it to stay in the wetlands and towards our pipe drainage system just one other quick question David this might be for you do does our commission have jurisdiction over these drainage soils or just the Wetland we're looking at on the map well when you say jurisdiction yeah I mean any any work in the drainage shil if it's in a wetland resource area right but it sounds like some of these drainage selles are away from or they all considered we that that could be um a drainage swell in and of itself is not necessarily a jurisdictional area yeah I'm just trying to separate this out of my mind it almost seems like there's two separate issues one is the wetlands that's our commission's concern and you you've addressed and then the second issue is the drainage but is the drainage something this commission takes up or is that a separate issue well I I mean the part of part of ensuring the wetlands are protected is ensuring that the hydrology Remains the Same and and that's very often equivalent to drainage I understand your question yeah no right all right that's enough thank you okay so what are we looking for I know we don't have a d number we um we know that there were some issues with the abutter uh notices so I think we need to continue this in any event um um what else um I I don't think I don't think there was any other information that I requested from DPW I don't so I don't think we need any other additional information oh oh actually there was one thing and and and and maybe you maybe you misunderstood Courtney when I asked for it that I wanted the Wetland Flags shown on this plan I can I can add that to the plan okay so that I not not this whole Wetland was not flagged um but but the portion of it that was flagged the individual flag should be shown in the plane okay yep okay so we we hear the neighbors and their issues and I think there's some more maybe beyond the scope SC of this hearing some discussion maybe with DPW with storm water that should happen um but I do think we should continue this hearing um until we uh because of the the ab butter notice and also because we don't have a DP number yet okay and and do we have a recommendation for the residents that are having a problem simply work with DPW right yes yeah we'll have to look into that um I was unaware of the issues on Drive yeah sounds sounds serious doesn't it yeah I I would suggest you contact the storm Water [Music] Division and the director and the director end of the day yeah at the end of the day we want to have a a plan that's that's good for the neighborhood but good for you know the common good so we don't want to have one neighborhood like suddenly improve a lot and then have another something happened to it another neighborhood that's really to their detriment we want we want this to be something that's good for everybody as much as we can okay take a motion I move Mr chairman that we continue this hearing until our next meeting of August 27th second motion by Chris second by Bill all in favor I okay thank you very much appreciate it thank you to the uh resident's uh input appreciate it moving right along here notice of intent Brian and Sarah Sanford at 163 old Westford Road uh we have um probably she's online Susan MacArthur from MacArthur for environmental representing the applicant well then legal notice oh yeah and we have a legal notice Mr chairman the legal notice pursuant to the provisions of the Massachusetts Wetlands protection act Mass jiz chapter 131 section 40 and the CH Wetlands bylaw chapter 187 the chood Conservation Commission will conduct a public hearing at the town offices on Tuesday August 13th 2024 to consider the notice of attent filed by Property Owners Brian and Sarah Sanford for proposed work within 100t buffer zone to bordering vegetated Wetlands at 163 old westr road further identified as assessors Map 37 block 130 lot67 the project entails construction of an addition to an existing single family home thank you Chris thank you and we have an I think you're there Susan yes I am yeah hello Susan can you tell us about the project yes uh my name is Susan MacArthur from MacArthur environmental Consulting um I believe uh Brian sford is in the audience uh toward the front you have a hand waved yeah yeah and um John crup who is the Builder is um virtual um so the5 acre parcel consists of a two-story woodframe single family home um it's got uh pave driveway detached garage uh wooden fence and Landscape yard with many um planted fruit trees and Stonewall separated well oh actually um can I share my screen yes you should be all set to do that Susan okay let me know when you can see that yep okay all right so um okay so this is the property line coming down like this and there is a stone wall along the property line um which separates the two properties uh the town of chelsford is over on this side um and so just beyond the stone wall is an intermittent stream and um flows from under Old westf Road um and it does have bordering vegetative Wetlands associated with it so these were delineated um in July of this year this summer um and uh some dominant vegetation in the Wetland consists of uh red maple white ash um um American elm with an understory of blackberry um sensitive FS stump cabage whatnot and you'll see the 100 a buffer extends um onto the the prop the subject property like right through the existing house and uh we also have the the locally regulated buffer zones on here um so uh I guess um the Builder originally went to um went to the town asked if they could do tus pits and um brought that by David and David approved um but they ended up digging a little bit uh a little bit more than um they actually excavated out the whole for the addition because it is a full full Foundation um so that is exposed uh there is um there are a roing controls uh roing control barrier um around it to protect from any sediment um getting down to the Wetland uh there is a little bit of a stockpile over here um yes it's within the uh no disturb Zone and um no improv so but um that will be cleaned up as soon they didn't want to touch it um just until we got the permit from the town but um it it is contained behind a barrier and David kind of test out this we met out on the site but um anyway the proposed addition is um just going to be a one story uh it's um going to be approximately 2 180 Square fet it's off that Southwest side of the existing house um it is um temporarily uh there are temporary supports I should say um supporting the side of the house because when it was excavated out it kind of exposed that side so um as soon as they can pour that Foundation would be a good thing there are just tarps right now over um originally we had proposed to put um gutters and down spouts um going to rain barrels but um David had expressed that the commission would want to see a drywell uh so we've since added a dryw off uh from each side of the gutters to um you know collect the um collect and Infiltrate The Clean rooftop run off um Brian as I said has a lot of fruit trees and he was going to use the rain bar you know to collect water to water the plants but um so if the commission does want a dryw he's open to that as well um and I think that's it thank you Susan David uh you want something else David do you want to give your comments um I I think Susan described it very well um I actually can't think of uh any anything else to add um I I think it's you know a standard order of conditions really oh and I just want to add that um access to the um proposed Edition will be from the the driveway which is over here so they'll just come across the dve the front lawn and you know just to access it which is how they did it before okay John no I'm if Dave's good with it I'm good with it okay you know as far as the uh the rain barrels that's good if he's got the fruit trees I mean it's well that's the question we're asking for drywall so yeah so well put the dryw in okay Bill I'm good with it Mark this is kind of like a after the fact application yeah I didn't I didn't realize the uh I mean the addition wasn't built right but but the the um the foundation or the area where the foundation's going to go was excavated I didn't quite realize that was going to be the scope and I'm not sure the contractor did either when he first started it okay is is there any rosion control around a stock pile yes there is okay that must does it doesn't show it on his plan this dark line here well it's he's talking about a down down yeah it's that dark line here so so Susan I don't think you got me that revised plan I didn't because I wasn't sure about the drywell if the commission wanted it or not I'll send it to you though okay thank you and I have some calculations for sizing as well for the drive great thank you thank you Chris do we have a DP number yet oh hold on yes hold on I thought Mark was back to Mark no uh you're going to put ctech Chambers in is that what you said no uh it doesn't have to be um I they might just do generic you know is there a location you decided to go with them right right off the um you know within 10 ft of the proposed addition but um some of the fruit trees are just beyond this so we just don't want to dig up the roots near not well this this is well it's not really a complete plan I wish they all the stuff was on here um well you're correct uh mark on this plan but I think the plan that Susan is referring to is the complete plan she just didn't send it to all right okay and it's and and this plan it's going to be signed in stand sted right Susan the the revised one okay toppo was flat I if I remember correctly no no no it's it's pretty well sloped down toward the uh the stream um right Topo is not shown on this plan okay that's all I got uh so I heard we have a d number then we do any uh D comments no I I didn't see okay yeah and then just echoing Mark I mean obviously we would need to get you know the final set of plans and you know the engineering stamp and all that before we could you know go forward but other than that I'm good Peter two quick things I thought we were going to have complete plans in front of us before having a hearing so we don't need to discuss that I can go with the flow but it makes it a lot harder for all Town boards John you're you're right on in noting that I just wanted to note that note discussion and I'm kind of curious how the addition how the whole was dug like what brought the owner to concom as opposed to just moving ahead and building on top of it well because they they applied for a building permit and I you know for any kind of um work like this I I have to sign off on it so so I saw that it was in so it was in the buffer zone um I mentioned to the contractor that that a filing with the commission would be necessary and then uh a couple days after that he he said well we um we need to do some test borings um to determine the condition of the existing Foundation um against which the new addition is going to go and you know that's that's allowed in the regulations um you know those those kinds of there for planning purposes right I I I I don't think he understood I certainly didn't didn't understand that that I guess that amounted to basically digging the hole where the addition is going to go um maybe John are you there can you speak to that uh yeah hi um yeah I think what ended up happening was there was a miscommunication between me and our site work contractor um for the addition and uh as we did kind of get uh in communic are in uh contact with David kind of towards the end of the permitting process and um he was kind of expecting to go ahead with everything and I told him we we kind of needed to wait until this got approved and but that we could do some tests uh to see kind of the existing Foundation conditions um because the architect wanted to uh maybe adjust the plans accordingly we weren't sure what we're going to find uh in terms of of an existing footing or how the stone wall was going to slope away from the house um and yeah it again it was a miscommunication between me and the site work contractor um he kind of went ahead with things uh and clear you know it was him not trying to lose money or what on the job but um yeah it ended up being a little more uh taken away than was originally expected um yeah okay yeah yeah thank thank you I yeah that that that certainly answered my question thank you y anything else Peter no thank you so um I think I'm hearing would like to see a final set of drawings um and and get a d uh well there was a d number you said okay so I think we want to see a final set of drawings so if we can do a continuation until we see that which I presume two weeks should work um it's pretty straightforward I think Susan right yeah I mean I can send them right now if you does it have the drywall because I think you like Mark was looking for the dry Wells on there uh there's one dryw it's right here um I don't know if you can see we're not we're not seeing your screen anymore oh oh oh you're not now we are now we are now we are sorry about that um it is right next to the addition I don't know can you see my yeah yeah okay how about the calculations for the size and capacity I have that as well um I mean if you want I can go through it but um I don't I don't I don't think so long as you've done it so then then I guess if if the drawing is there and you can email it to David are we okay saying we we're seeing the drywall there uh yeah I want the uh uh the spoilers from the whole moved I don't want them there anymore they're too close to the uh Orleans yeah definitely there that's the first thing they intend to do is get those out in there yeah so would that be a condition yeah yeah okay okay I'm trying to understand are we we uh we approve it with the yeah with those condition conditions yeah then I'm okay with that yeah not not doing a continuation okay so I'll take a motion uh move that we um close a public hearing uh we should have uh public uh we didn't ask for Public public input any any public input Joe no okay no public input uh no neighbors uh complaining so that's a good thing I move then that we close the public hearing motion from Chris second second from Bill all in favor I I okay the hearing is closed Mr chairman I move that we issue a order of conditions but we have special condition as Mark had said that the spoils be uh you know removed as quickly as possible and I want a designate sure you can hear the designated area where they're going to go to in a design area where they can go to number one and then also number two we need to have these um these updated plans in in calculations to uh our agent right away um so there's there's a couple ways I think you could handle that you could you could tell to get the uh the spoils out of the buffer zone right now um and make issuance of a building permit contingent upon that um now I don't I don't know if any of the soil will be needed to be saved like to backfill do any back filling or not um uh that is that that was the original plan um I'm not sure why it got put there in the first place but uh that would be the first place we'd take back fill from uh if it needs to be moved before that point um we could definitely do that I think I think it should be yeah so I mean you could tell them to you know get it out of the buffer zone right now um or or you know guess at least get it out of the 50 Foot uh buffer zone I think the 50 Foot is is good all right so we have a condition that it' be removed immediately from the 50ft buffer zone and and make issuance of a building permit contingent upon that having already the building issuance of the building permit would be conditional upon that requirement okay anything else I think that's it no we got the new location of the stockpiling correct that's already been outside the 50 Foot okay so so I think you're saying Mark you want that shown on the pl yeah that should be on the plan okay I want I want to see Filter Fabric or something around it too straw wle or something yep okay okay if all of that's on the drawing then you know then the we're approving this with those conditions uh contingent on all those conditions so motion from Chris uh go ahead go ahead Susan I just I didn't hear the last part about the stock P oh I want I want to see uh 9 in 12 in wadle around it shown on the map okay once it's moved yeah once it's after it's Mo okay y okay okay motion from Chris second second from Bill any further discussion all in favor I I motion passes um the uh everything will go to David will Susan will get the documents to David in the next day or so that material will get moved very Pronto very short time and um Good Luck Good project thank you so much good night thanks very much okay we are now moving into the uh the church part of our of our program here is it Sunday going I step back from this one Mr chair oh that's right I'll be back so we have um a continued hearing on the notice of intent from St John the Evangelist Church at 115 middlex Street Mr Hamill is here uh representing the applicant um and I think David you got new plans yes thank good evening good evening uh for the record uh my name is Bert Hamill I'm representing the uh St John's Church this evening at 115 middlex Street in North Chon um the commission at our last meeting charged me with several things uh one of which was to meet with the town engineer which we did uh I believe David was present at that meeting and we met for approximately an hour to hammer out a few things the second item that um the uh commission asked me to do was do a second deole that was witnessed by the U DPW we also did that um and it's shown on the plans in front of you um I will say this that the uh test toll that we dug the second time around was uh a bit different uh than the the first test Hole uh we hit um what I would classify as Bentonite uh it looked like it was a bluish gray material uh did not look like typical soils that we find in this area um not good leeching material no no not not our usual stuff no but uh there it was we have photos in the package for you if you care to look at it um but it uh gave us pause because Ben night is a clayish material uh type things we didn't find any diamonds unfortunately you know Kimberly mine is not in Shel um but anyway um so we took the advice of the Town engineer who wanted us to um consider that the uh materials were not as good as we originally thought we had use soil Maps as well as the test hole we had originally done we backed it off from 8 minutes an inch to 2.4 minutes an inch of um infiltration rate uh we did a two different sets of calculations based on comments by the uh Town engineer as well we did one just for the site itself which was about 4.62 Acres uh the church site itself and I was very uncomfortable with that you know just personally professionally so we did a second set of calculations and you do have both in your package uh for including the upper slopes behind the church parking lot and apparently it did not make a lot of difference in terms of rate of flow but it effectively doubled the volume of flow to the parking lot area or the wetlands parking lot area um so we looked at both situations it actually lifted the uh elevation of the water puddling or ponding by about a half a foot so we looked at both situations did the calculations for both situations provided the calculations uh to the commission through David and and um we provided the calculations to the uh Town engineer Mr Ruchi and with a letter comment letter he sent a comment letter back to you indicating that our responses were generally satisfactory and we have pretty much uh the same plan in front of you the only thing we have added to the plan other than the information we gathered in the meantime was we put a uh 5- foot clear Zone around the system that we were proposing um to add some sand to it that's optional we we didn't include it in our calculations because we weren't sure you were going to prove it but we would love to put it in there if we're tearing up pavement and so forth and adding a little bit of sand it wouldn't hurt uh given the perk rates of the soils or the apparent perk rates of the soils I'm open to any questions you might have okay thank you uh Peter you want to start actually uh let me ask David if you have any additional uh no no I don't um DPW as as Bert mentioned uh DPW has reviewed the revised calculations uh they're they're good uh with everything um so I I I don't have any issues with it i' been trying to think I don't really even see any particular um special conditions uh involved but I might come up with a couple if I can think about all right Peter uh I'm just curious so the upshot of finding the clay one way to look at it is the maximum water depth in the parking lot is just a little higher than your original actually it was actually lower but um the original test holes we did were in the winter where we had um flows from the wetlands coming into that uh the testing we did was this past July uh water table is down uh instead of being 5 ft down we found it at 6 F feet okay I I have no real questions thank you Mark yeah let me understand that the uh the test pits all this work could doing really doesn't have anything to do with us it's the wetlands behind it correct I got nothing okay I'm fine I'm good I just hope it works yeah I know we we know this is not an optimal uh everything is very constrained here and uh but I think I think it's uh it's as good as we're going to get that's what I think we're looking at if I'm not mistaken any uh uh so any uh any public comment anybody from the public want to go ahead is that the Joe you have something to say I think this is the okay my name is Joseph Haider Chamberlain 29 Chamberlain Road I'm here on behalf of St John's Church hopefully thank you Bert I appreciate your time again sorry to drag this out um I did discuss with Bert that we we were I was requested some years ago to put signs up for the church I put the Wetland signs up and I looked and I said oh it's not wet all the time I mean I've been you I don't know a lot of you don't know my history I've been doing this for about 50 years um I've stood in a Shen river built walls walls and stuff in tuxbury done all kinds of work in in to as far as retention areas infiltrated beds stuff like that and some of the condominium associations lowed entire roadways and this is a very to me this is a very small project but it's still very important um I've been in a lot of wetland areas um numerous for for years I mean John used to use my Mo my machines um but what my what I had recommended to Bert is rather than trying to squeeze this little wafer the way I'm looking at it under the pavement what if we did go in and lower the retention area now I know everybody's saying it's a Wetlands I'll if you want I can talk to um like Leo Gano and LOL he's Gano knows every puddle around this area of a since God was a child I've worked with him on numerous occasions um my thought is because that wafer is only going to accept BS a mathematician with all the gallons and calculations I don't do that I just look and go it's not going to work you know um I was thinking if we moved off the Hut toop and went into that area that's been filled by previous landscapers over the years dumping grass and whatever into that what if we clean that back out and brought it back down below the pavement back to its original um more or less its original elevation which would be a couple feet below the pavement we could save which I've done in tuxbury at the um Condominiums we dredged fire pawns which were oh I think it was like an acre and a half when we did over there there was five of them we went in with my excavators and actually walked down in and we dredged everything but what we did do is we saved the top material because that's where all the Wetland vegetation was in I moved that to the side we dredged out the bottom and put that material back in and let it take back over um we had to do that for a couple of reasons one because there were fire ponds for all those units which was what about 600 units in the area um the ponds would dry out and they were like mud so um I think you worked on that project one of the many projects in that area um we did a sewer line through there and all that but we had to create a an emergency situation for water to be there for fire backup because they didn't have adequate fire protection with the hydrant and the PIP PES and like what you're going through on some of these other pipes are too small so my my recommendation to ber getting back on track is if we would to lower behind the hot top that's there now open some of that back up we may have to take a few of the trees that have grown up in the meantime I mean it's probably hasn't been touched in 45 50 years um my feeling is it would be more of a long-term cure that would give the church and that whole CU you got houses down that whole side of the road they tend to how do I say this nicely deposit leaves over the fence and stuff which is creating a problem for the drainage area and by doing that they're raising the water that's being trapped on top um they don't realize they're creating their own problem we've been there we've done this uh if we would have clean that back out dredge that back off pull off we can leave whatever you want on site we can pull it offside it doesn't matter um but I'm thinking if we lower that area down and create an area for that water to go off the hot top instead of saying I'll just use fictitious numbers if you don't mind instead of saying we're going to put a th000 gallons on the ground we could probably put four or 5,000 gallons into this retained area and set it back up to let the natural habitat go back to the way it used to be that that's my thought I mean maybe I'm all wet you have a reaction uh yes um that that idea actually occurred to me as well that this is this um Wetland um could very well have been created um by all the drainage in the area it really is basically the low Point correct so it's it C certainly one of its main functions and values is flood storage capacity um so it just it on that basis it's probably just conceptually better suited to uh you know AC accomplishing the the go the goal here um and and and and going going back and doing a little bit of research it it it uh um is an isolated Wetland that's only jurisdictional under the local bylaw um so that makes the permitting um easier for what Joe is describing I think the only thing you would have to verify though is that it doesn't have any significant um wildlife habitat functions and values in particular that it's not a Vernal pool and and and and I've offered to do that I've I've offered to go out and check next spring sure um to verify that either it is or it isn't uh I think there are a lot of reasons for believing that it's not because of all the surrounding development no up there's no Upland Hab and the water T down um You' ALS you'd you also have to verify that you know that there there are no particularly vulnerable you know turtles or or birds or whatever um so um again I'm I'm I'm willing to you know U assist um significantly in that but so so if that's not the case if it doesn't have any important Wild Life habitat functions and values I I think it makes a lot of sense to to to make it into um a drainage basin that's that's going to be larger fun function um better and frankly you look better you get rid of the mosquitoes and stuff because right now you know as we well know when you have the leaves and stuff creating a mat the water can't get through you will have frogs and stuff in there but the mosquitoes are going to drive you out of the area so I think if using the soil that's there as you well saw the test holes is layers and layers and layers that and I I mean that clay I said the bear could have been dumped in there for all we know we don't we didn't open a big area like the room we just did a slic trench as a far from the river but yeah yeah so I I think in a long my my opinion maybe I'm again maybe I'm wrong my opinion is if we could create an area that would oh sorry if we could create an area that would retain the water and let it naturally absorb into the soil if we're hitting a water table at four to 5 ft and we go down 2 2 and A2 we're still filtering that water which is our intent um and giving it a volume place which in turn makes it safer for the parishioners that are going to the church not to be falling on and everything else it may back up end that's the that's the issue that's a whole that's my whole goal is safety but I I need to protect the environment that's y so if you could do that would you do away with the other uh we could we could definitely do the math so the next step would be to have David take a look at what's out there before you spend the money on that Band-Aid exactly you would you want do okay with you guys better fix or or do both if your calculation said you needed to yep right you you could do you could do maybe do both but you know whatever works best when you look at it how big would you make this thing too make I mean Max it out if you can yeah Max it right out to whatever yep it's it's just like building a new parking lot and building a new retention area maybe it's part of that and build it to the parking lot exactly David if you're out there take a look up on the side parallel to Tobin Avenue that TR that uh soil is all maybe it's part of this new idea maybe you clean that out and that feeds it too right you know yeah the more poorest ground we have obviously the better it's going to infiltrate and filter but if it's trapped on the leaves it's just creating mosquito heaven and it's not it's not helping and eventually the houses that are along that side are going to have calls complaints issues well and this this is in the flood plane and so it's it's enhancing the flood plane yeah you I don't want to point fingers you know I'm not like that I'm just saying if there's a problem can we fix it so let's um are we at a point where we say we close the hearing yeah and then I'm trying to we don't have our our Ace uh motion maker here so we have to construct a new motion based on this approach before you do can I ask a quick question yeah can we okay this in the event that that this next one doesn't work I think that's the intent here is that we are essentially approving both approaches well well I know I think I think I think you you'd approve this and then they and then if if what Joe is suggesting Works they come back with a request for an amended order of conditions with the new plan show the new plan yes that makes sh a new retention are but it is not do this excuse me John but it is contingent on you taking a look y to verify okay you're thinking that it's not really habitat value right that maybe in January so we put that aside right focus on what we heard what the original plan was we make that approval yes and then uh and then we look at you you look at the Vernal pool and look at the site yeah okay thank youber c i don't kick them out what's that does it need to be refiled if depend it it would be uh an an amended notice of intent and amended order of conditions I don't I don't think a new a whole new um file number would would be needed I we're not approving that second one we're approving the original what be under the Lo yeah correct okay so I'll take a motion uh we we had no public no public comment so I'll take a motion to close the hearing so moved moved by Peter second by John all in favor I meeting the hearing is closed okay so now we want a motion that essentially uh to approve it with the conditions uh were the conditions that we talked about um I mean again I think it's I think it's pretty standard yeah okay actually yeah because we're approving the the the engineering design the the right infiltration design yeah right so it's as as designed as presented this plan so nothing uh no special conditions okay is that all right so I'll take a motion for that approval motion to approve motion from Bill second from John all in favor I I I okay very good thank you very much and if you guys have any question might see you again yeah keep showing up right that's okay but yeah if you have any questions as we go I mean yep yeah just keep David keep David at breast and uh um yeah very good I had a thought on one of those other drainage issues they had where the town wants to change a pipe the two gentlemen sitting beside me land owners and it keeps washing and washing I said why don't you request a put a pipe in there and back fill it it it gives you back your whole yard I mean may be easier for them it might help you guys do you give them the C your card no not yet we don't design let him go to the get it off your desk we don't design that's drain exactly we review and approve well it may help get it off your desk you know thank you Chris thank you very much let's keep moving on here guys um let's keep pushing on that was hard without our motion guy yeah our Ace we missed you thank you so I will take a uh motion to continue the 10 hildr Street um do we think it's to the next meeting yes okay to the meeting so I'll take a motion for the 10 hildr uh I move to we continue 10 hildr until our next meeting which is on the August 27th motion from Chris second second from Bill all in favor hi I okay motion passes thank you very much we will see the 10 hildr folks on August 27th here you go thank you okay next we are now at the uh we are now at the one that I'm going to recuse so Chris you're going to do the hearing here for the right reservation and Steve and I are going to do the presentation okay so why don't you step out there and we'll do the uh legal notice here um I'll just read this one into the record the U legal notice pursuant to the provisions of the massachusett wetlands protection act Mass General Law chapter 131 section 40 and the Chon Wetlands bylaw chapter 187 the chord Conservation Commission will conduct a public hearing here at the town offices on Tuesday August 13 2024 to consider the request for determination of applicability filed by Mr Carl Bishop on behalf of property owner town of cheler for proposed work within bordering vegetated Wetlands at 120 Parker Road uh which is the G the George VB wri conservation reservation further identified as aesus map 102 block 410 lot 3 the project entails extension of an existing raised walkway by approximately 170 ft the proposed extension consists of 8T by 12T long sections of pressure treated wooden decking and joist resting on 40in wide lengths of HD PE corrugated conduit slotted to accept the joist and now we'll hear from the um the proponent of this um application Mr Bishoff good evening so this is the right reservation which um if you remember we did a site walk at this site about a year and a half ago and we did this specific area this is uh the mud the mud part of the trail it's about 170 ft long there is already existing about a 100 foot long uh walkway just beyond that so this is essentially continuing that air that uh that that walkway uh for 170 feet um the uh the site is a wonderful conservation site but it doesn't get as much usage and I contend that a lot of it is because this is a really really really muddy spot it gets very wet in the winter and the spring and even now when you go out there a couple days ago David and I were out there it's really muddy and even though it's been relatively dry in places it's still really muddy if you had white sneakers and you tried to walk it you'd be you'd be in trouble so the idea here is um that we're trying to put a an extension of the walkway um there's a new design concept that uh we got from Leverage from the town of Bedford uh Mr Mr Sperry found it on Facebook and um as as described and I'm going to let Steve talk through the the the idea of how this will work and how we'll put it together but um in addition to this site to this this particular um 170t length the whole site has a number of walkways and bridges that are in some pretty good shape and some not so good shape so we're going to be doing this same the plan is to do some of the same types of uh uh this this uh design concept on other parts of the site this is really in a wetland most of the others are are in you know they're just kind of walkways over a brook or something like that but all of the the same approach the approach is the same for for the whole site and that would take probably even a year or two to to do all the whole site but this one we think we can get it done this fall this summer fall so Steve you want to describe the sure uh so I'm Steven mayot 70 Dunstable Road for the record um David do we have the the uh here there's right there it is right there so uh you can kind of see in this little picture um I call it the lightweight walkway and the reason is that it actually is light some of the other walkways that have been bu and specifically the one that's already there that's about 96 ft long was built out of 4X sixes and and 2in thick decking it's it's beautiful but it's really heavy um and getting all of that material in there is the challenge so uh we Dave as we said Dave sper found this on Facebook actually had some pictures and we reached out to the the trails committee and uh they forwarded over this uh nice little engineering drawing which is like okay great and so we built one do we have a picture of that David um yes hold on uh I thought we did maybe not I hope we have a picture but anyway the idea was is that I was concerned that because it is so lightweight that it it might feel like kind of jiggly under your feet and it would be bouncy um and we built it and it's like no it's beautiful uh and the the way that uh the Bedford folks built their walkways is that they took all these little pieces and brought them out into the field and assembled the whole deal um you know in in in on a site um that's just not going to work for here what I found is that uh people working in mud that are hot that are getting eaten Li by insects often make bad decisions and so uh the way to do this instead is to build sections ahead of time uh and we can use the worn pole pole barn for that purpose because it's an open Bay um and good for this sort of thing and so the idea would be to build 23 of these sections uh offsite and then each one of them weighs about 100 pounds so it's not exactly no weight uh but it is lightweight and the key to the whole deal really is uh you can kind of see it but it's that it's more the HD high density poly ethylene piping um for this site for this job we're using 8 in stick uh and we route slots into it to hold the 2x4s but each one of those little pieces of pipe they're actually 4 ft long they only weigh six lb uh versus like a 6x6 which would be like 50 60 PBS maybe more depending on how wet it was um so and because the polyethylene is completely inert in on the site so it's like really nice so the idea would be four people would carry this thing in add a couple boards to the end connect them together and off we go right on Down the Line do we have any other pictures David um did you send me I did send you an email with okay hold on let me uh here we go email search along of the sections the uh what's really interesting about this concept is uh and that the Bedford people mentioned it to us is that you can sort of make it any way you want uh the sections we're going to start with are8 feet um and Carl and I were actually out in the out in the site uh I guess it was last week and you know put a string Center Line down to figure out how you know where the pieces would have to go and stuff like that and so 8ot pieces are just about 100 lb and so actually two people could carry them but it turns out with the with they're totally awkward four people 25 pounds a piece it's a piece of cake the other thing that's really nice about these things is that you just drop them into position you might have to put a little bit of uh you know uh 3/4 inch pack or maybe some 3/4 inch Stone something like that to level them up because the the walkway wants to be level left to right it doesn't have to be level up and down but it does have to be level left or right otherwise it'll just feel funny Under Foot but the whole idea this thing is it it's really minimally invasive you just carry the sections in connect them together and move on and you going to carry the old ones out oh well no nothing there the what we're talking about is nothing but mud no the old walkway the old walk well the old walkway that this is going to connect to is staying it's actually still in pretty good shape oh okay there are other sections so the site actually has four Bridges and seven places that could have walkway five of them currently do have walkway in various conditions some of them not too bad some of them pretty pretty far gone and so you could imagine down the line using uh here we go okay is that is that what you're looking for yeah that's what I was looking for so that's uh that's in my driveway that's the one that's the one you built yeah that's that's the Prototype and uh so just 23 23 of those and we're done the other thing that's it's uh also too because we uh so the the piping we we got donated from the DPW so helps a lot um and then um so what's left then it really just 2x4s which are the stringers and then 5/4 X six decking and then some nice screws and voila you're there it's uh we made a jig uh that uses a router and a very long bit to to slice up the tubings and it's like all we need is the assembly line to make them you make it sound easy it might it might be for Steve I was out there some years ago go with the Boy Scout Troop yeah and that was like two weekends with like 20 25 kids and adults out there lugging stuff you know through the mud and dealing with the mosquitoes and uh yeah it's everything I said right it was all yeah all the above wasn't a pleasant task right um and and right I've LED projects like this before and it's like as much as you can do on dry land that's where you want to be in a controlled environment so the other thing to add is that from a wetlands perspective we're just placing stuff on top there's no disturbance I I there's no digging uh other than we may put some uh some gravel or some kind of a stone dust mention to level leveling it other than that you know from a Wetlands disturbance that's it it's it's just uh and and there's really my understanding is there's really never any standing water that would come close to the top of this I don't think so the worst case if it ever got that Bo it would be pretty high to get over for that yeah what's interesting is because it's made out of pipe if there's any water left to right it just goes through the pipes cuz it's up off anyway the whole deck is raised up high so um yeah it's pretty minimal impact which which I really like and also the fact that we're carrying in essentially assemble sections there's not a lot of like foot traffic building the thing in sight it's just drop it off not taking any heavy machinery into the weaps that was my first thought that's what I wanted two footed people yes bill yeah you get the pipe from the DPW y what's the funding for the uh wood so so that yeah that's so the the first thing is to get the wetlands approval from from you guys the RDA approval um the second thing is to just general approval of the project and the third thing is approval to get funding from the right reservation trust fund because that money is there there's plenty of money this is exactly what it should be used for which makes this site much more usable we're talking um I think we said $2,500 uh actually I think I want to ask for 3,000 because you never know what comes up if the DPW we need a few more pipes if they don't come through for us we're going to have to pay for them but that's that's where the money would come from that seems pretty actually kind of low for all that the TU buys and everything you sure make sure you get enough triple check the spreadsheet it's pretty disturbing when you start multiplying all out because of it's like almost 400 cross pieces you know and it's like 69 2x4s and all that but it yeah it's actually it's about 100 bucks a section something like that it's um not not too bad yeah I I just make sure you get enough for contingencies and yeah whatever you need yeah we get you know you need to screws and stuff adds up that's why we built one to see yeah no I like the idea I think it's a good idea now who's going to do the work you guys yeah it's any of you guys want to join us yeah I mean so there's a team of um probably half a dozen yeah it's about half a dozen maybe eight people that um have been involved in um clearing trees uh within the conservation properties over the past few years uh so they're all good with a chainsaw which is actually of no value in this particular job but they're all hard workers right um and uh and glutton for punishment and so uh we can imagine setting up work parties um you know to manufacture it in Mass all the cross piece all the long pieces all the routing all that sort of stuff and uh and yeah I think Warren Pole's perfect for that yeah that that was actually one of the enablers was having the Warren pole the pole barn opened up cleaned up it's all open it's a perfect place to do this work and Stage it it's a place that has cover it has electricity I I mean it's it's out of the sun if it's really hot it's just yeah it's ideal and it's not full of hay anymore no it isn't oh no that's the barn but no the pole barn was talking about using the the sort of garage the open the open area oh that one I'm sorry a perfect work area cement floor it's really nice yeah it's where it's where the tubing is sitting right now yeah I remember so you've talked to the people in Bedford who have done this and they're happy with it there's no issues both Dave and Steve have been down there and said it's pretty cool it's a good it's a good set they were only doing shorter you know like two sections yeah yeah I mean this is not I mean it's 180 ft it's like 60% of a football field it's pretty far right um and so that's where it's like all right we're going to automate this so we're done not doing it and that's that's where we're at yeah I like it I think it's good anybody El question I think it's something we need too those like you say that hasn't been used much down this because it is wet well the other it's the number one complaint for that site right besides tick I'd say TI is number one yeah and mud but the other thing is that this is such a variable concept um so for example let's say you want to span a brook well maybe you don't want to use 8 inch pipe and you could use 12in pipe or 15inch pipe and raise the walkway up I mean just or you make could put in more stringers if you're trying to build a bridge it's really an interesting not exactly like Legos but it's like that idea right it can different applications it can still right this site was never Ada approved so this is not going to affect anything no that this site is okay there's one section out by the uh by the um kiosk by the parking lot that's the other end of the site there is a straightish trail there that in theory that that could be considered for Ada it's straighten level lot of roots on it but not here not in this area okay good uh anybody else questions comments from the commissioners before we get public input all right any public uh out there in the uh out there somewhere only one choice well it could be somebody out there in outer space anyone on zoom zoom good all right so we've uh had our presentation we've had our Q&A could I have a motion then to close this hearing I make a motion to close the hearing all right Mark and the motion close Peter on the second all those in favor all I all right unanimous let the record show that our chair our chairman did not vote because he's the president so that that um that took us um so that's the hearing's closed now and then this is an RDA request so we're looking David what do you think negative -2 is negative2 yes negative2 that's what I thought so if we can have a motion then to approve the project with A2 determination please so move so move by Bill seconded by John any discussion all those in favor I um unanimous all right so continue with the meeting I've got to go and get the signature page you need more for the getting the money out of right yeah yeah yeah we got to talk I'm going to sit there he's going to come back and lead the money discussion we can talk no you can continue yep okay y we we um all right Peter where you going yeah Peter's leaving oh well okay so the yeah so the the the money thing we you know we worked the spreadsheet on this um a bunch of times get quotes from Lowe's or Home Depot one of the both it's exactly the same yeah yeah so it's pretty straightforward did all the counts on everything honestly this is great I mean the size of this project and you guys are doing it for that budget I well we were kind of surprised too but it's a lot of it is this piping is you know you get a 20ft stick and so you can can get F uh five pieces out of it so that's two and a half uh two and a half segments yeah do we know how much how much if you had to buy the 100 bucks pipe the uh 220 220 that's right 220 for a 20 foot section yeah if I go this there a place Ina wi yeah yeah so they're yeah they're not cheap and um so we got six from DPW um about a month ago and but that was before Ste and I realized that we want this Trail to be this walkway to be 36 in whereas the Bedford one I think is 30 in 32 32 and we realized no the existing walkway that which is a great walkway that walkway that fill in the crew built N I think 15 years ago 20 years ago that thing's a rock it's it's really good um but that's 36 in and it's like no we don't want to make it smaller we want it to be the same once we realized that was like oh then we want our base piece the plastic piece to be wider which meant we need more plastic tube so I'm waiting to hear from Christine if we can get some more they got some 10in they're going to dig up good point tell them to be easy with it that's all yeah right right yeah so so um so the so we need to get some more 8 in and I think she'll be able to get it for us but if she's not then then we'll just use it out of the right reservation which is why that was why let me me see my um oh I thought I had it open open it it's it's amazing what's the process for getting that money so so yeah I think what I want to ask for is 3,000 but if we don't use the 3,000 I'm totally happy with that it'll be more like somewhere between 2100 and 2500 I think is probably the number right now we think it's 2100 but if DPW doesn't get us the piping we're going to have to buy more and that's not cheap so the process is and I've done this once before a year and a half ago um is I meet with the I get your approval to take money from the trust fund and then I go to the um Town Council and the um town finance manager and the three of us have a trustee meeting we're the trustees for the fund and we have a meeting I say this is what we want it's it's a 10-minute meeting this is what we want to do this is what we want to use the money for how much money is in there now oh gosh a lot of money it's still in the 30 to 40 to boy I forget I I have it somewhere it's 40 50,000 something like that yeah it's in that range but that's you know I to me that's exactly what this that's a perfect use for for this uh is to make this site more use we never touched that money till not too long ago right the money was sitting there for forever and it's it's great to use it because that was the intent was to benefit the property although I have to say that money 50 years ago when it was put into the fund if it had been invested in a even conservatively would be a lot bigger than I know the same number it's just in now no it's just in a town account should have put it on Apple why you just bring it up the Enterprise and get yeah one of them 6% yeah that's not that's not how it's done so that's I would like to make a motion that we so number one I'd like to make a motion get somebody to make a motion that we approve the project which you you kind of did the wetlands part but just in general so Carl I make a motion then that the commission approves the project and the expenditure of up to $3,000 for the project from the trust from the right trust trust account motion from Chris second second from Bill all in favor I I okay so we got that so Vivian I hope we captured all that when you're taking the minutes um so I think we're good so um David is off getting his uh getting his sign in sheet sign sheet for that so thank you Steve appreciate it and Dave thanks for finding question yeah just when you put those in do you dig out at all for the for the cross pieces the hdp pipe so the intent is not to dig at all right because the area that's there that we working in is nothing but Roots okay and mud so it's going to sit on top it's going to sit on top yeah um we're okay with can you come up to the mic you you can even just talk right to that mic yeah M standing is us so the intent is not to dig it all because the area that we're working in is nothing but Roots right uh and some ways the walkways goes right past big Tre so we don't want to disturb that um so we're okay with the walkway sort of potentially following the Contours of the ground as you dve as you walk along but we want it level left and right so if we've got to put a shovel full of something to get it level that's what we'll do okay so pretty minimal yeah yeah and the other thing is these um plastic things can slide a little bit you know just just if it's oh there's a big root right here if we move it 6 in it's the other thing which Bedford mentioned is that you know like if there's really an obstacle that you can't really get around I mean you can cut you can cut a hunk off of the pipe if you really want I mean you know yeah it it's yeah it's good nice it's pretty um fible yeah it's pretty versatile it's a clever I think we will be seeing it on some other sites no you could see it you could see this like the temporary walkway that we built at Crooked spring this would be a more permanent version of that um and again for pretty reasonable money um and especially that we have a a Fab site that's pretty good you know like for crooked spring where we've got uh where where that walkway floods when it really rains you could imagine instead of using 8 in pipe use maybe 12in pipe or something and and 2x6 or something or something and get it up higher um it's um yeah it's really an interesting concept and it's how long as BF been using them I think it's been a little while because they I forget the email traffic we had but it sounded like they'd done it a while but I don't I don't know and I don't know where they got it yeah I'm not sure it's it's you'd think if when you if you step on those pipes that they would deflect but they don't they're really sturdy it's it's it's almost hard to believe and then like I said each one of those pieces that you see in the photos there it weighs six pounds so you you can imagine putting one under each arm and walking down the trail whatever it's really it's just um you know again versus like a 6x6 or something which should be a few people to carry so it's um really remarkable nice thanks perfect so um next on our agenda is the coolest land discussion um with David but he's not here but I will tell you this is specifically the only I'm talking about here is that the um you know there was this discussion about that the uh site that the task force committee had requested um possibly using the site for a res wildlife rescue operation which is the um the new house uh one and and so we asked our new con our new um Town Council who um it's a pretty deep group um they have a number of people with expertise in the community preservation act so if you remember that we bought this property uh for Parcels of land um through the community preservation act and uh Mr ikan uh is the attorney that was given this um interp you know he gave us his opinion and he I'm just telling you his his opinion which aligned with a couple other opinions I got from other people um and I'll mention them in a few minutes but U Mr Ian's um opinion essentially said that um because the land was acquired for the purpose of open space including Agriculture and because article 97 which is the Public Public Lands preservation act which is lands and easements taken or acquired for such purposes shall not be used for other purposes or otherwise disposed of except by laws enacted by a two-thirds vote of each branch of the general court so that's a big big big lift um and then on top of that leasing a portion of the land for a wildlife rescue operation and construction of a building to house the operation would be both a use of the land for purposes other than that for which it was acquired and a disposition of that land and that the rescue operation as described which is you know a building with parking and uh some maybe some out buildings is not use and retention of land as open space in his opinion I tend to agree with that it just doesn't fit the description of open space further regardless of how the use is characterized having a lease as an interest in land and is is an interest in land and thus would constitute a disposition of the protected land as such the proposed lease and use is prohibited by both article 97 and the town meeting vote authorizing its acquisition unless the necessary releases from those limitations on use can be obtained so then he follows up with um if if it was really going to be proposed like to to try to really make this happen the steps that would have to happen so he's saying I don't think it would go then he's saying but if you really tried to you'd need a 23s vote of town meeting to change the use of the land authorize the select board to seek legis islative approval under article 97 for the new use and the proposed lease and authorize the select board to lease the land upon such terms and conditions as it deemed fit if if we were going that far the select Board of course would would be already on board if we were going that far um but you'd still have to submit an application to the executive office of energy and environmental Affairs the EA to remove the land from article 97 and it must include an analys an Alternatives analysis demonstrating that all other options to avoid or minimize said disposition or change in use have been explored and no feasible substantially equivalent alternative exists I don't think we could do that identify replacement land of equal or greater resource value we'd have to find other land um uh acquire that replacement land um we'd have to work with our Town's legislator Representatives you know our Senators and whatever to obtain legislative approval to change the use in the land um if the money was fund to buy the land was obtained from the CPA which it was then town meeting must appropriate funds to repay the CPA for the purchase of the land being leased we'd have to do that um we'd have to do a a CR um we wouldn't have to do this cuz we we haven't really started this CR yet because which I want to get this like closed off to me we were getting a a a comment saying well you got to do your CR first and then you can decide I'm like no no you you decide what you want to do with the land and then you do your CR and they were kind of telling us it need to be legal yeah yeah so yeah so um and then of course in theory I mean this is sort of theoretical but if the value of the lease was greater than $35,000 which of course it would be because it would be many years um it would still have to satisfy the requirements of the uniform procurement act uh to lease the land which means that um you'd have to get multiple proposals so it wouldn't even be a guarantee that it would end being new house so all of that I'm mean I'm like I I think we're done like so on top of that I asked the director of conservation Services who reviews CR the CRS and he said he came back to me with this you know with the same question and he said they don't provide technical assistance relative to the CPA but he said I'll tell you as a former CPA chair for 12 years the proposed use would not be consistent with the CPA with the community preservation act so and he he was from the town of Stow for 12 years but he's the guy that ourc is going to go to for Warren pole his his his Department in the state and then finally Stuart sagor who is the executive director of the community preservation Coalition so this is similar to our Ma CC only it's for the community preservation act uh all the towns that have adopted that that pay dues into it and he said the terms uh I'm going to skip that power we're not experts in this area but I do think the state might may find it problematic to have a wildlife rescue building and a residence on open space conservation land as you'll see in the definition of open space in section two of CPA buildings are usually the opposite of open space so he gives the state definition of open space so I'm like I I think we're done here like I think we can say I know that there were three if I remember right the task force you had three things there was the new house there was the uh the event uh field and the um um uh Ada Trail so I I I'd like to be able to like say for this particular one I want to be done with that and say we're we're not pursuing that um my understanding is that um new house has already kind of come to that conclusion because the town has not come forward and and and my point is we love it you know we love new house I do I think they do a great job I'd love to see them stay in town I just this buying land the town buying CPA acquired land is not the right way to do it it it just way too many hurdles to make is if we had bought the land through appropriation which we wouldn't do but I you know in theory that would be a totally different for General Municipal purposes not open space right right then you know in theory that could H you know we could maybe consider that and maybe there's some other land on the town somewhere else that could happen but that hasn't come forward after six to 10 months of this being discussed but this property and same thing exactly the same thing with Warren pole because that's been brought up as well it's like if if it's bought through CPA money I don't see this you you don't put a building on there unless it's for the purpose of open space like a kiosk or or a or or like an agricultural barn or something yeah yeah so I'm sorry uh but that's just it's the reality it's just where we are so I don't I'm not looking for a vote so much as you know nods from everybody are we in agreement on this are we okay with yeah you're going to jump over so many hurdles it's doesn't seem just we're going to go back to town meeting and say we need to we need to take money out of the fund and repay the CP it's just ain't going to happen well I just heard a at least a threeyear process with I don't know a thousand labor hours or something and and she needs to move a lot faster well that's just it that's the issue yeah they they do a fantastic job it's a great operation they're doing some really good stuff i' love to see them stay in town right is is is there anything else this commission can do to support the operation since their their values align well a lot with ours you I've I've talked to her about um I don't know how this works in the state when you release Beaver that have been rehabbed because in theory they're supposed to be released to where they were first taken but sometimes that's not practical we have conservation land that I think beavers are a good thing to be on um Warren pole is a good example if we could get our bridge at Crooked spring up about 2 feet that would be a good example but um you know those are where you'd want want beavers you know and if they're they're spending time rehabing these beavers and they're trying to put them out somewhere I think that would be a good place and I I'd say that's same true for posum or you know any of the critters that they find that I I think um that's what that's what our job is is to create habitat yeah and and I would just I always think about the fact that one of our uh directives if you will from the master plan and whatnot is increased communication to the public on conservation issues and you know what better way to do it than an organization that has a big following yeah yeah and they they came to our open space and uh our open space uh yeah so open house open house and so I mean it's getting late but we probably don't want to go down this road but I was just wondering if there's something more or you know we can talk later but that idea of working together makes every sense yep yeah I don't have anything else I didn't know you could relocate wildlife um that that's the part I don't understand because if you think about a rehab operation sometimes they don't even know where it came from so they got to put it out when it gets rehabed they got to put it somewhere but when you trap a beaver yeah you can't what do you do with it you got to dispatch it kill it you can't you have to yeah why that's just the state law right now they don't want you to relocate right correct they're worried about diseases a whole lot of damage no I understand so so can't yeah you don't want to move your this problem to another place and create you know they do the same thing not not as you know what I mean yeah yeah so how is she releasing these I don't know how that works in the dead of the night no I I don't know I don't know how it's s so so so new house we need to just take it off our okay so as much as we'd like to totally support keep it in town and any way we can but this for this project this path is not it's just not at all too bad honestly it's the same thing for any conservational land that we own right right the same problem right yeah really it's whether it's a CR or CPA CPA acquired article 97 it's article 97 just open space it's it's the you know the liw is very clear y so what was the next I I for that I just wanted to be able to make that statement so part of it is that I get comments from people saying are you guys going to do something about that I'm like we can't I keep I say it to people we can't because I knew this all along I I was pretty sure but I've been waiting to get opinions that a l you know and we had two other opinions we did get a different opinion from previous Town Council but it's quite contrary to what the New Town Council did and I I will say the current Town Council opinion um is much more detailed and much more um thorough and I believe they have a lot more knowledge in the CPA uh it's just the area that this particular uh Mr um ikeman he's got a lot of experience with CPA whereas I don't I don't think our previous Town Council that wasn't their that wasn't their area so it was kind of a you know I did the best he could but I didn't think it was quite it didn't feel right to me when I saw it Dave SP approached me about there's a piece of land I know he's out there about uh there's a piece of land of Boy Scouts in the do drive it's unch it Chumps a water district then it goes to Boy Car property okay and I asked the Commissioners and and they have no interest in at all doing anything out there okay they are going to be running their lines in for the new uh uh PE fast plant so it's quite a few years away before we're going to be coming in that driveway it's not there's nothing they can do or apparently not want to do in the next two or 3 years okay okay I know I told you to get back to you on that I think a simple letter but I didn't explain it so new hous is off the table for cool thises property yep okay yep that's our official yep uh I don't have anything on Warren pole we were going to have a site visit tomorrow with a um a representative from the state looking at the um ecological restoration of the meadow um and she just emailed me late today and cancelled she's not feeling well so um that will be rescheduled this is someone I met at the Mac in uh March and they've done this kind of um like restoring I think they just done a project with a golf course in like new Hamp uh Northampton or something like that and they've taken it Back To Nature so um um she was interested in seeing our site but um so is she gonna reschedule with us or she said she would reschedule but I'm given that it took six months to get her from March to August to to come we'll see um but I will ping her again now that I I know she's interested so um I was very impressed talking to her back in March um I was disappointed I didn't get a lot of response I was honestly a little surprised a few weeks ago when she reached out I was kind of like wow cool okay good uh and that's it oh uh so David do you have anything on 35 brick kilan and car street so um new New Town Council sent sent the owners of uh 35 brick h Road a letter um saying that uh to uh say please contact the conservation agent about getting this issue resolved he gave them I think a 10day deadline or something like that so so uh lo and behold um the owner did come in uh and uh speak to me um I uh you know there the two main issues there are restoring the the wetlands and 25 foot no disturb set back from wetlands and filing the RDA which they should have done in the first place to do the work so um I I he said they really they they really don't have the money to do the restoration um I said well you really you really got to come and talk to the commission about that but but um you know go ahead and file the RDA uh anyway so I I I gave him the form you know helped him out a little bit you know direct directed him um and then uh then a few days later I got an email from his daughter asking well you know what are we supposed to do so she so I said well could you please call me I G I gave her a day and time to please call me and of course didn't hear from her so um looks like I'll have to continue chasing them uh I will I I I will I will try to call her and and tell her that um you know this needs to be resolved okay you know they got to file the RDA to begin with and they got to get it resolved I'm glad to hear we got a letter sent and I'm glad to hear there was a response that's much better than it was going for months right can we record that at the registry I'll record the uh I don't know um I think the enforcement order could be yeah and you got to have some recourse we have nothing going with us now right there I I agree completely we need to have some leverage so so um I I I I think you know maybe maybe give it another week or so but yeah and and probably be in recording a new enforcement order but yeah that I think the registry will do that um okay I got something call and and then on 5961 Street Town Council tells me he's he's he's tried to get in touch with Mr Harvey's attorney without success yet so um I'll uh you know com if if that continues to be the case I'll have to talk with him about next steps okay um and one more thing uh because I know Mark you were interested in this the um the the dredging work uh on um Pendleton or off of Pendleton you know up in that area um uh River Meadow Brook um you had asked the water district be notified when that was scheduled so that's scheduled for August 19th actually my other question is going to be how did you make out with uh th Lumber the engineer promised in Boston Road yes uh so um so we did we did arrive uh at a at a planting plan uh tree planting plan restoration plan so um and and there were there with with regard to the actual work you know the the the drainage um that um there's still some just some really minor things that need to be done like with that that that that all came out really well well they didn't want to cut right so so so the the only remaining issue is is that the order condition says they can they can only cut the wetlands and buffer zone once a year after October 1st so a few months ago just after that was issued um the engineer called me back and said well there seems to be some misunderstanding you know we want to we want to we don't want to be able to do it more than that and he said well we're going to be filing for an amended order of conditions and so I've been expecting that to get the request for the amended order of conditions in the meantime in the meantime they're continuing to mow um more than what's allowed in the order conditions so so I I got to get back to them and tell them you know they either got to file for well in either case they got to abide by the owner of conditions but if they want the schedule to be changed and there's no guarantee the commission will do it they have to file the request for the amended order of conditions yeah I was done it today it's why you happen notice it so so you notice that that the buffer zone is lawn yeah no the over conditions does not allow that well is there another enforcement order um this is dragged on for two years well that's you know that's certainly a possibility I I I I just would feel more comfortable just letting them know at this point you know reminding them that you know they got to buy by the order condition if they want to try and change they got out request the amended so thank you David I know these are difficult appreciate you staying on top of them bill you had uh I've been contacted about that land on Freeman Lake again yeah I know where we're at just to keep that on the list of things to look at and and I and I actually was up there um very recently like within the past 10 days or so I mean oh it looks nice yeah I mean there's a there's a little little bit of stuff right on property but not as much as it used to be looks good the the issue now is how far down we own yes because there's a dock and a boat right that one of the neighbors and it's saying private property yeah it would be nice private so we can't say anything to them until we know where we own to so it's a yep you know it's a Well I um I I think I think we're almost there in ter in terms of getting the title exam okay I I I just I I I didn't have a chance to say it under Warren poll but I I want to I want to send the CR the next step is to send the CR to attorney ikeman have him review that once that's done I think then we can okay I just want to make sure it stays no it's definitely still on the radar screen hasn't been forgotten just please tell Attorney I can only tell us if there's a real glaring issue otherwise the what the the CR the Warren pole CR yeah yeah okay all right uh meeting minutes anything else you you're all set uh meeting minutes so we have May 28th meeting minutes if you want to take a quick look at those um I already did my only thing was she kept saying like this was covered earlier or something like that which is kind of funny but I I didn't quite understand that but looked okay to me did I miss something I don't think so oh I know what I missed Dave reminded me uh open space um and wck plan so just the quick update is that the survey has been extended and it's um to the end of August and um so if you all your friends and family and neighbors make sure they do the survey the other thing is Dave and I have dug in with the um ncog on the open space parcel inventory and actually it's it's pretty good there's a lot of lot of information a lot of um mapping I think some of the maps we've talked about like it's pretty cool we're going to be able to do it's not there we got a ways to go but um it's it's looking pretty good so and lastly we do have a good understanding of why the 2017 report did not get finalized and pushed over the end zone line we understand that we know what has to be done to make that happen actually having ncog support us is a big difference yes yes so I'm feeling better that this time around we'll be able to get this one complete I'll take a motion on the minutes uh Mr chairman I move that we approve the minutes of May 28 2024 second motion from Chris second second from Bill any further discussion any changes no changes okay all in favor I motion passes the minutes are approved we still have a few more to get from our dear friend Vivien so hopefully we'll get a few more in the next few days and uh I'll take a motion to close the meeting move to Jord motion from Chris all in favor adour thank you Char for Tel media