you're in Key West it being 6:30 we're going to start the meeting of the planning board um oh golly I'm not enjoying that at all neither are we um so this is the March 13th meeting of the planning board um we're going to conduct this meeting both live and Via Zoom um the zoom option is being afforded as a convenience to the public and to the um members of the board um however should the zoom go down we will continue the meeting um we're going to start first with public input which will be limited to statements relating to issues um which are not currently the subject of a pending public hearing um and otherwise not on the agenda um if there's anyone who would like to speak in the public input session please come forward say your name and your address um okay right here hi uh my name is Matt mol roone uh 344 Boston Road um uh the issue that I'm bringing forward is an issue with the special permit and construction going on at um the newly created address 348 Boston Road um I have a couple problems uh two of them are with the special permit that was issued um and then three um issues that the construction caused uh the problem that we're having right now is extraordinary runoff of water which was a problem that I mentioned in 2019 at a planning board meeting in that for the planning board meeting that was uh held to split the property at 350 Boston Road into 350 and 348 a driveway uh was to be created between my address 344 and 350 so that a house could be built behind 350 um the problems that I have with the special permit are that at the meeting I mentioned that we had been getting water runoff from next door and um and as a solution a burm was discussed at the meeting the burm uh was also coupled with a fence as a way to also uh stop noise ultimately the burm SL fence is what got entered into the minutes and the burm was completely left out of the special permit leaving no um leaving absolutely no uh nothing about the water runoff just noise um another problem from the special permit um was that the uh original owner of the property who's since sold both properties um is no longer there um the owner had a pipe that I didn't know about um which was the source of the runoff I thought it was just natural runoff um after he cleared the land we found this pipe uh you could see it from my property um and it comes directly from a koi pond this pipe the koi pond none of it is on uh any of the plans that were submitted for the special permit um and immediately like after getting approved uh he brought out another section of pipe and brought the water like even closer to our property probably another like 20 ft so that he could run the driveway up and over the pipe Matt can I interrupt you um is it the your property is 348 or 350 I'm at 344 344 it was originally 350 and then they created 348 and the pipe and the firm were to be between 350 and 348 um so at the meeting they discussed putting a Burman between 348 and 344 oh and 344 okay okay I'm sorry go on yep okay um further uh when uh plans were approved for the building of 348 so the thing is that it's been 5 years and through whatever extensions I don't know um eventually uh the property got sold to a builder and the Builder was issued um his his plans were approved by the town without any notice of the special permit because the special permit was accidentally attached to 350 Boston Road I was notified instead of 348 so um even though the original plans did have some protections themselves um mainly a twoot trench um running next to the driveway against runoff um that's not currently in the Builder's plans and I've been I've been informed by um Mr balansky that the Builder will be held accountable to what's currently in the special permit um with the trench but um again my my further concerns are that that pipe the existence of the pipe was not known it's a 6-in PVC pipe and it spouts a river out at our our properties um it's become worse since uh the Builder purchased the property and has been uh building uh the sorry um there the driveway has been flatten the wood has been all the wooded area has been removed and it just comes right out onto my property and then in front to the street and into my neighbor's property and he's getting a significant amount of water in his basement have you been able to take any photographs of the the runoff yes I have videos and everything else if you'd like to see them now or another time or if you could email them that sure um okay well I we we're not able to respond at this time sure um but thank you for bringing that to our attention and we'll have to determine how to proceed thank you very much I appreciate it Evan could we put that on the agenda for next meeting to discuss yeah I mean I'll I'll as Matt indicated we've been in communication um I can either provide you a verbal update now or I'll do a via email I'm not sure there's much for the planning board to actively um do at this point it's an active construction site there is a uh a special Department decision and a plan and the developer will be held to the decision and the plan has the building has the building inspector has the building inspector verified that the permit's being held to so the it's an actar that question can you repeat the question or speak into the microphone oh yeah my question to Evan was is has is has the building inspector confirmed that it's being conducted according to the permit so as Matt indicated um there was a there was a time where uh when the building permit was initially issued uh it for whatever reason wasn't Flack for conservation sign off and it didn't have the uh planning board special permit decision uh flagged the online permitting system has since been updated so the current developer who pulled the building permit has been put on notice that what is the the planning board plan of record that plan as Matt indicated does account for storm water using a 2T um gravel trench along the driveway uh Matt's also correct that it does not appear as though the planning board process um either identified or concerned itself with the uh pipe coming out of the koi pond I don't exactly know what the timing was of the extension of the pipe um and I'm not sure to what extent since it's not part of the planning board uh special permit or or um Associated plan to what extent that would be um uh you know an item for the planning board to revisit um I can tell you that DPW is aware conservation is on actively on the site building Department's actively on the site okay so I was surprised to hear Matt say that uh there's not appropriate erosion control measures on the site particularly if it's impacting the town right away um the area that's under Wetland jurisdiction clearly has erosion control for purposes of protecting the the resource areas um but as you likely know your special permit plans also include um minimum um soil erosion measures and DPW uh through the land disturbance permit has the authority to require more can you forward the dates of the planning board meetings associated with that property yeah absolutely that' be great okay so tomorrow I'll follow with an email special permit decision it was a it was a real lot special permit for a rear lot can you send that to us oh yeah yeah absolutely can we also get a status on what the building department is doing and what concom is doing and what the DPW is yes that'd be great way we can have an answer can I can I go yeah thank you so much um thanks for listening and thanks Matt for I'm Matt's neighbor my name is nithan furi this is my first time here so please bear with me I'm the owner of 342 Boston Road that's down 342 and that's Downstream from 348 now and I've lived in the property for about 13 years years uh I've never had water in my basement ever um just for some clarification there is a c that goes through the street the drain and the water goes through my property but the town has padded that with rocks and other things um it doesn't get cleaned often which which might be another issue but but the water goes through there usually but since the construction started of course Matt's uh Drive uh yard has been flooded uh that water also eroded the last storm that we have eroded the sidewalk and all the water came into my property and my basement was flooded with two Su pums working at the same time um so I did go talk to the Builder uh he I think he temporarily fixed it uh but I think what my concern is with like what Evan thinks were clarifying in future before we issue you know this site of done and the property is sold one worry is that I hope this doesn't continue um I also my background my back is the conservation land and it's full of wet lenss as well and that has also gone up quite a bit the water so which I'm like that water is starting to seep into my yard a lot more so I'm getting these issues and I want to just bring that up uh similar to Matt's issue water in the yard water in my basement um so right now it's stopped because I think they they had these huge machines and they put like some some big Bol some some things that the water is not coming on the street but what all that is doing is the drain is getting over flooded okay you know drain and the water isn't really our jurisdiction at all much I mean I I think that there's definitely some issues that we have got it brought to the FL and that we're going to investigate okay all right so I just want to bring that it's related to the construction all right thank you so much I don't know if this is a good time to up my name is D Das live on sunning Circle I have um kind of good news I don't know if you guys have ever heard of this grocery store called Aldi it's a discount grocery store they're planning on building a bunch of new stores I was wondering if maybe we could try to get a hold of the corporate office and offer one of our buildings on 129 to them it be a good idea I think that might be a great thing to discuss with the Lisa Malone morone who does that's her job okay all right yeah she's definitely the one to yeah yeah CU I we just you we just got worried that they're going to be building a bunch of new stores and I think it would be a great fit for chumford and it would help get something over here going is there anything else anything on Zoom for public input no okay uh it's quarter of seven and um next up we have administrative review for a minor modification for 66 um parkst road request for minor mod for previously approved minor site plan while all the applicants getting set up you may recall that this was in front of you not too long ago uh and this is a a modification to change what you previously approved slightly but many of the many of the elements of the project will be the same sure can I stand here to stand for the microphone you can stand there just speak up or maybe pull the fill the microphone forward okay um good evening uh Jim Cranston with bowler engineering um we were here before you back in January for a minor site plan approval um the design at that time was based on um some assumed grades over on that side of the property turns out after doing further survey um that the grades are more excessive than we anticipated so the ramp that was designed by the architectural team actually would not comply with code so in order to address that we there's no way to regrade that side of the property it's about a f % grade change along the entire side so what we've done is we've modified the location of the ramp system and the door exit for the associates to bring the pickup Goods to the customers um you may recall that the ramp used to be here now on the other corner of the building so um it still works operationally it's still within a paved area we changing the pavement area um it still is uh provides clear Access Fire Department okay with it watch your shirt oh Oh's that sound so there were no staff comments and it's a again just a minor change to the prior plan so the ramp is in the front from them sorry you said the ramp is in the front in that little it's still in the back the back of the build around the other Corner oh between that little yeah okay thank you it's really supposed to be just for fire vehicles you know where you walked to the building in that corner there were several letters that were issued they they're actually links to all the letters in the minute in the agenda um and nobody had any had any comments uh DPW we've since satisfied the DPW conditions since then so they're they're now satisfied um I had asked fire prevention specifically to look at this because that space in between the two buildings I I thought was a fire lane to some extent that's all it is but fire fire prevention I believe wrote a clean line yeah my only recommendation um there are ballards that stop around the corner and then near the fire hydrant my only suggestion would be to continue it all the way down so that cars can't either accidentally or intentionally go into that area and hit someone so along here yeah to the associates okay or at least to the fire hydrant okay let easy I think it would probably only be one or two three at the most got it we can do that okay um I'll take a [Music] motion well give you a motion if you would like or it's the administrative review we still have to vote um okay okay and I guess I'm moving to Grant the request for the minor mod to the minor site second with the stipulation that Chris made yes yes with the stipulation that Chris made I'll second um and can you articulate the stipulation that Chris made into the yeah add approximately three more ballards to continue down to protect the associate area to the fire hydrant perfect sorry um second second all in favor okay thank you very much thank you all right so we still are a little remarkably 10 minutes ahead of schedule I don't think we want to start hildr and everything else is continued until you want to do the those continuances Central where the yeah we should do the continuances and I think there's some comments yeah will get made okay so first is the um 270 270 yeah 270 was at your last meeting was already continued 27th but I I but I think U so we don't need to continue that we should probably mention at least that uh the D has gotten interested amazingly enough they woke up and are looking at this and have uh apparently are looking for uh additional sampling and uh certainly additional Wells uh so the best I think we could say is stay tuned interesting yeah very interesting indeed all right um next up uh yeah okay need a motion we don't need a motion for that right but we do for 93 but 93 Bri Hill Road we have a request for continuation um do we have a date for that to be continued till in their request or are we going I believe so give one to the 27th okay um does it fit on the 27th we'll potentially have to wrap up MBTA if need be and then also we have um the 270 but maybe that's going to be further continued if d p is going to be involved what else do we have on the 27 there's no new hearings that I'm aware of so it will fit to the extent that we close things out to or that you allow you know you allow time you manage how long each agenda item so it sounds like that could that could work for the 27th so let's do take a motion will their LSP be there I move to uh well the LSP can can can I can pass that uh request on um this is all going to be dependent upon I think how far their engagement gets with um the water district and Board of Health yeah who DPS no the the applicant for 93 oh that that also I I've sent emails out to you but that also the Board of Health process has also identified um some contamination uh the extent in um what it means remains remains a little cloudy at this point but I think also there's I think there's also a a very good chance that we may want to revisit the storm water with that knowledge yeah yeah but I think I think I think it's I think it's incumbent upon their team to further characterize so that it Mak some sense it's not clear that it makes sense to anybody right now so right now we're just we're just waiting to the 27th and then we'll wait correct all right so you just need a motion on that motion to continue uh 93 brick Hill until the next meeting is that what you're saying yeah the 27th 27th a second all in favor I okay um next we have 191 chumford Street the car wash um requesting a continuance also to the 27th yes I did receive a formal request uh so that is being requested to the 27th okay for the the board's reminder we are uh waiting on the traffic peer review to be submitted right so we've got 2703 and and the car 191 okay so I'll take move that we continue uh 191 chur until the 27th I'll second that okay all in favor I I all right um and it's still a little before 7even of do we want to talk about um any either Le and updates or annual goals and objectives yeah I can talk about the conservation meeting M um find My Notes so they had 191 Chelmsford Street present uh to them um Peter gave some um input on the omm um I also uh he sent that to me as well so I'm going to start looking through it for the next um meeting um there was a lot of discussion on hildr and I'll I can talk about some of those updates in our meeting as well did they did they have an updated plan did they present an updated plan to yes they did yeah but we have not received an updated plan it was a partial plan it was a partial plan okay not not complete okay in the car wash they were talking about test pits maybe well that was brought up that was brought up but to monitor for P I don't think yeah Peter suggested but I'm not sure it's going to happen he wasn't he wasn't aware of what the planning board was aware of yeah related to the applicant committing to that's fine but they can change their product he made a very good point and yeah well there can be special conditions and both decisions yeah that's why I but who's going to monitor it though that's the that's the issue I see so but it was also I think described that it's a closed system the car the car wash uh discharge is going to the sanitary so not to the storm water right and he did say by the time the car comes out it's dried and everything I think Peter he asked a question I think he got up yeah I think he had the same question we had when we asked it in our meeting y so okay yeah that's it all right anyone else and I I attended the Board of Health meeting and uh could you figure out what's going on eventually well it's that's kind of funny actually well it's kind of funny and kind of not 93 brick Hill was there to talk to the question of the hydro Geo study and they weren't used to the way the Board of Health runs their meeting and the meeting was over before they before they realized it and they were looking at me with these stun looks like well when do we get to talk I'm like I'm sorry the meeting's over but uh in any case uh so the residents of hildr uh voiced the number of concerns they had directly to the Board of Health and then uh also afterward I I asked Donna Greenwood if she would uh coordinate with Evan about getting us the results of the hydro Geo study uh and then other than that I think as you know Evan is expressing his emails I think developing a better coordination with them would be a good good thing to do and just exactly how we do that I don't know but until then I'll keep attending the meetings and so forth so and just on the hydro Geo study uh the Conservation Commission is looking for that as well so if you could there's some confusion as to whether one actually exists or was submitted they said last night it it absolutely exists I heard him say that okay and it shouldn't be too difficult to didn't you hear thatc track down they think it does I mean I don't get it okay I know it's been requested and that's not what but that's not what is forwarded huh okay okay uh just one from Madam CH just for housing Advisory board so at a previous meeting um a a um lip project a a smaller scale uh so-called friendly 40b project was discussed for 243 Riven Road um this will likely um just kind of a stay tuned this will likely um come up at a future select board meeting um this is the property just to orient everyone it's a house that has like yellow tape around it across from Forest Street um it the proposals for 23 units would be seven four bedroom single family homes then 16 two-bedroom tow houses so just kind of a stay tune that will likely be discussed at a future select board meeting and the next housing Advisory board meeting will be uh next week on March 19th I believe correct y That's the old Princeton property project correct people remember one that had the turtles turtles salamanders I was out flipping logs looking for salamanders so not A's on report but we we I think um the town manager's office emailed the chair yeah I just about the um April meeting initially if you recall planning board had uh cancelled your meeting of the April 24th to attend pre-own meeting right uh the met the email that came from the town manager's office was offering to schedule pre-own meeting to Thursday the 25th so they're looking for the planning board to uh indicate your preference as to whether you'd like to have your regular meeting on the 24th and then attend pre-own meeting or if you want to stick with um attending pre-own meeting as originally scheduled for the first of all for clarification I thought we decided we would have our meeting either whatever before or after and like we would have a shorter meeting but not I didn't remember that I think I recall some of that yeah I actually couldn't be there on Thursday but could be there on Wednesday um but I mean I like the idea of canceling the 20 the Wednesday and just and doing pre-own meeting personally but yeah we're going to be in front of the Town talking about yeah yeah I'm not a big fan of two nights in a row yeah I get it plus my Conservation Commission meeting the night before that yeah so I'll respond to him or do you want to respond to him that we'll keep it on Wednesday if that's okay with him do you guys do you guys have a preference as to whether it's pre-own meeting is Wednesday or Thursday Wednesday Wednesday Wednesday okay you prefer Wednesday okay so your message back to town manager's office is keep it for Wednesday and you'll cancel your meeting yes or do it around that I mean we might do it in a different we might do it in a different room if there is such a thing yeah if there's a need police station if there because he'll be doing us I mean we're doing we're going to be on the agenda for second night of town meeting so all the other stuff the budget stuff will all come before he gets to MB the way it's been explained to me is that um I think it's anticipated at the MBTA is really the focus of town meeting the second night it will be it will start the second night but for purpose of first agenda but for purpose of pre-own meeting that's likely the one of the few articles that will Garner or generate any significant conversation right yeah okay um um my only other thing is you weren't here last week or last time and I know you watched the meeting but um I had brought up about the adus about the planning board reaching out to other communities I just got something about that today I believe the manager's office sent an email to the chair of the planning board sorry inviting uh the chair to an upcoming select board meeting and I believe general meeting of stakeholders to discuss and I believe that same email went out to the chairs of the zba and housing Advisory Board it's not clear to me he was looking for representation and I think it's the 28th he sent it to all of us actually I board I figured I'd probably I made it to the meeting yesterday with the State Rep yeah good oh good we were very well represented Paul was there the 25th is that the day select people I don't know I'll tell you a minute yeah 25th six o'clock my request is more to make sure we inform other communities of this bill like more like not necessarily whether we're against it for or whatever I just think it's important that we inform the communities in the Commonwealth that this bill is out there um I think every Community from what I understand has their own ncog helping them with this is that right but this wasn't on neog's agenda like they didn't bring it up another represent brought it up I I think at Monday night select board's meeting the selectboard wanted to invite local local stakeholders in an effort to uh come to some sort of unified conceptual position but it also was stated that uh the select board may ask MMA which would speak to to your kind of Statewide yeah um notification yeah I I I want to just from notification perspective not necessarily a statement perspective that like other communities are notified because again I think it's one of those things that if you're not paying attention you don't know about it and I just don't want another MBTA this is actually a lot worse than the MBTA um coming up so maybe we attend the meeting on the 25th and then see what comes out of it maybe it can be a wider communication right than just the planning board to other planning boards maybe it could be town to town or select boards to select boards yeah I I do think it's really important yeah okay so I'm going to try and go to the meeting on the 25th as well um if a number of us go to it even though it's not a planning board meeting do we need to um um what's your thought on that if you're going to speak yes but but they be be speaking as individuals not as planning board members because the planning board wouldn't have discussed it prior to if there's a quorum of the board there and they're going to be particip will discussion I'll post it as a planning board meeting we just have one representative why can't we just have them why don't we just do like a do a tri board meeting and just that way we have it at the like administ can we ask the select board so I'm I'm good I don't need to go I'm willing to be there because I I my can we go back to the select board and ask them to do like a tribe board meeting so that way we can all participate and talk about it or do like even maybe a different day for this specific topic you could maybe that's a request at the 25th or I mean we've got a select board Le on here can we ask her to bring it back to the select board or is that the next meeting to the 25th is that their next meeting yeah come on here comes Virginia she was at the meeting yester I to she oh she was okay the n Hi V Virginia Timmons I'm on the select board the conversation that we had at our last meeting was whether we want to um communicate something going forward to our legislators um or to the MMA and um kind of raise awareness of what our concerns or our support might be for the town of chelsford we didn't really draw a conclusion my personal concern with delaying that conversation past the 25th is that the timeline is ticking uh where this is getting pushed through the legislative cycle right it's already been approved by the um joint committee on housing and they you know Jim rero has said outright I I understand that we may be putting amendments into it but they had they have to keep it moving so if we are on our own timeline scheduling Tri boards and things like that I think we don't want to delay at least this initial discussion if if a quorum of the planning board wants to come to the select board personally I don't see an issue with that Evan can post an agenda that just says a quorum might be there and you're covered okay so I don't think it has to be a special a different kind of posting yep okay and and the board the board's discussion was to invite the chairs at minimum um and I don't really feel I have any authority to override that discussion so yeah I would hold it till the 25th and take it from there and then just have Evan post an agenda for you guys if you think you'll have more than a quorum we might well I won't be able to make it so but if everyone else is okay let's proceed with the MBT if being now after 7:00 um [Music] so we're going to reopen the public hearing um the continued public hearing um for on the MBTA Community multif Family overly District Zoning for the purpose of receiving public input um to amend the code town code chapter 195 zoning bylaw by adopting a new District um two overly districts are proposed one is located in the um West area including I'm not going to read the parcels but it's basically um UMass and um windir and Meadow River Meadow um Meadow Wood sorry drawing a blank um and um also an area on 110 including properties I guess I will read them parcel ID map 92 block 320 Lots 1 2 3 4 5 and six purpose of the zoning overlay is to allow multif family housing as of right in accordance with Section 3A of the zoning act Massachusetts General La 48 um so we had posted on our agenda the actual warrant article that contains the actual um zoning um District um bylaw and ALS also um we had feedback from the um eohc the Equal Opportunity housing and living communities department is that right not important hlc for surec um and they have they gave us some feedback with some minor Corrections which we implemented there's um the edits are on the warrant article as posted to our agenda and then there was um also an follow-up email that they hadn't Kelly's here maybe maybe she could walk through yeah the um hlc perfect comments and how Nim Cog is uh suggesting uh uh to address them and then obviously uh Paul hary council is here uh several of the bullets from hlc um spoke directly to council's involved wait wa perfect thank I haven't seen Paul in a while so it's nice to see you he mentioned I know I haven't seen you in person and I don't think ever it's always been over Zoom uh so thank you for inviting me here tonight I just wanted to run through a few of the changes that were suggested by hlc which is the executive office of Housing and livable communities um most of the the comments were all minor I think that's the first thing to note and some of them were actually things that could be addressed in the compliance model and don't need to require changes in the language that was submitted for the warrant so I'll just run through them really quick the first one is regarding I think a simple text error regarding allowing multif family units and we just needed to clarify um in the in the draft zoning Amendment we had said that it would allow multif family units dwellings of greater than three units and we just clarified that it is three or more units so that is a change if you looked at if you look at page nine of the warrant um that is a change that can be fixed on under Section 195 169 allowed uses um by just changing um the text under multif family dwellings um so you can just strike greater than three dwelling units and then um development and then under Section Red Line strikes in the actual um warrant article that had to do with the same issue of three versus greater than or equal to three um is there any in I assume we're we're also going to implement those minor changes I me wasn't there a couple in the uh that might have been an earlier version Oh really that you were looking at okay cuz a clean version went to to the state for review yeah okay yeah I thought there was like a couple other places where that happened and you just struck some things out yes that's that's what we did in the um the text that was submitted as part of the that was the most current yeah iteration of the amendment so that's what we wanted to use um any other questions on that okay um the second one was regarding section 195 or was about about um recreation in open space and um some questions this was really about the compliance model so this second comment from hlc can be addressed by toggling a box in the compliance model um Mike aiola our senior housing and land use planner worked with the state just to confirm that that is okay um nothing has to change in the zoning baa it was just a matter of uh checking a box that we're just confirming that we are qualif ified to check that box based on the way that the bylaw is written which the state has confirmed that that is okay and that didn't impact anything with the modeling or it did not okay it did not um the the third comment was um reviewing site plan review and I did review this against the state model bylaw and that is actually what informed the draft language here I also ref referred to the language that is in um your existing zoning bylaw 19514 site plan review um I defer to Paul on this um I have my own thoughts but um I don't believe there is any conflict I I don't think there's a conflict either the only suggestion that I made is that we may want to make a specific reference to section out as of right and then contrast that again section 194 D 195 d104 C2 which is for S plan review for special permits and variances so that would not be applicable so I think if we make that clarification it should address this question those clarifications are within the zoning bylaw correct would that be able to be added within the four corners of the the current warrant article yes I believe that's actually in the Warren article right now um on page 13 of the one okay oh so you're you're suggesting that the bylaw the proposed bylaw not not not the um not the existing site plan bylaw but the correct the okay the MBTA zoning bylaw right just just reference okay okay and that's essentially belts and suspenders yep okay we're a big fan of that yes and in the process of drafting this we did really look through close clly at site plan review to make sure that it was clear that it is site plan review for bught uses um and that is already a section that exists in your zoning bylaw and so this is just making sure that that reference is very clear and then I believe the fourth change was regarding um exempting the district from special permit requirements um in particular article X or sorry article 10 sorry I'm really bad with Roman numerals um article 10 Earth removal they they don't teach those in school um article 14 aquafer Protection District and Article 15 flood plane District so those are changes that we just recommend clarifying very specifically um under the proposed section 195-65-15 F In Articles and then refer to those three sections M okay Paul you want to add to that one um I I think it addresses the question um we're specifically stating that those particular special permit Provisions are not required and just to add some flavor to that Chris and I had a conversation earlier if you recall when the board finalized the subd districts and was drafting the regulation there was there was some quick discussion about these provisions and why they could be Exempted specifically for MBTA zoning and just to refresh your memory the Earth removal bylaw would only come into play if there wasn't an Associated development permit so because NBA any NBTA zoning would trigger site plan approval anything under uh Earth removal would be covered under site plan review and approval aquafer protection uh windir is entirely within the aqua for protection district and a small portion of Meadowwood is within aquafer protection but if you uh recall uh the only provision that would likely be triggered would be the lot coverage and lot coverage is directly related to compliance with stor water site plan review covers storm water in the third one flood plane none of the proposed districts have any flood plane so I think just based upon the specific locations and the bylaw is drafted the planning board is not not forgoing their authority to review compliance with storm water I'm sorry I don't understand the aquafer protection distinction you're drawing can you say that again so the aquifer Protection District triggers a variety of special permits the one that's most likely to be triggered would be uh lot coverage over 15% which is which is common almost every development uh triggers that lock coverage special permit within the arer Protection District the arer protection bylaw specifically says that the review and approval criteria for lot coverage is the stor water regulations which are not being Exempted correct right because stor M regulations are already embedded within site plan review okay got it if the if if the district locations changed then this these exemptions would need to be re Revisited for example riverneck or UPS M okay I I for one don't particularly like that um and for the reason that the for protection district bylaw with the lot coverage was put into place for a reason and essentially what we're saying is well whatever the reason was that we put into place we don't think that we feel like that reason is worth upholding in this case so I mean I understand what you're saying and that's a fairly reasonable argument but nonetheless the fact that we would forego normally our rights to examine something under that for protection district bylaw to me seems like something I wouldn't want to do unless I absolutely had to uh that one I don't that one I don't care for what's the solute what's the legal solution yeah well and and so what eohc indicated is if they are applicable the unit capacity of any Parcels within the district may need to be adjusted so that's sort of the the conflict you're going to run into is you may need to include additional area and if you recall get adjusted as part of the board's discussion on dimensional standards we did not we did not determine the need to regulate um lot coverage correct we don't regulate lot coverage right um because you do have significant standards regarding Frontage setbacks Etc um we did look at this a little bit and one of the things that you would as an alternative that you could consider doing is increasing in that particular like create a subdistrict there increasing the height to four stories um and then Therefore your your unit capacity for the overall subdistrict would be would still be the same you have the challenge now where you've done all the noticing for a map change requirement um I'm not sure outside of changing some of the dimensional requirements in the Z in the draft zoning that you really really have any flexibility to add or subtract is there is there a way is there a way to write this where the lot coverage Provisions are able to be reviewed you just cannot apply the special permit provision or is the is the problem that the lot coverage is specific to 15% and that may be in conflict with these dimensional standards got a question to me I I mean you you can certainly cut draft some language that puts provision into your site plan review requirements that the lot coverage be addressed the issue is going to be that that can't be a discretionary permit it has to be an as of right permit so under the standard for site plan review the only only way that you can deny a s plan review is if there is a problem so intractable that no set of conditions can cure the problem it's a much looser standard than the discretionary standard under a special permit so I I don't know that you're necessarily going to be able to get there through changing your site plan review requirements if your intent really is to have that discretionary review um basically set up to not have us have that discretionary well as currently written we've talked about this with Council and hildr and other projects that's currently written while it triggers a special permit in the use table it also specifically says if it complies with storm order it's it's deemed um compliant satisfied satisfied so it's it's kind of a hybrid by right but not not really I mean so essenti yeah you can you can exceed 15% lot coverage I mean By definition most multifamilies exceed 15% just just by the nature of what what they are I believe the current development there probably also exceeds 15% lot coverage it's just that it would require additional discretionary review which is not allowed under Section 3A and and certainly you can have a provision that requires compliance with the storm water management which we do within s plan right so it gets you there anyways yeah yeah and I and I agree with that and I understand that it's just that I mean essentially what we're doing is we're saying yeah we're willing to forgo our usual um you know discretion that we have that uh that we put into play that this town put into place through a bylaw and was voted on by town meeting so here we're voting in a bylaw and so I understand that that we may make that compromise but I don't want to I don't want to do it because we feel like well it's all the same anyway I think it would be to acknowledge that yes we are giving up some of our discretion and we're willing to do it for this purpose but I don't want to get on the slippery slope of saying well because it's covered under site plan review we don't really need to apply the act for purchasing by bylaw because if we do then we'll start applying that in other places too and I do not want to do that that's a very valuable bylaw and I think we want to hang on to it as much as we can and if we're going to concede it we're going to acknowledge that we're conceding it and why I think Joel don't forget none of this um bylaw is something we want to be doing any no I understand I understand I also understand that it's it's been very likely not to happen but nonetheless I think what I'm more concerned about is to walk away with the sort of rationale of well we don't necessarily have to apply the bylaw because it's covered under something else and I I apologize if that's I totally agree with you if it wasn't for MBTA zoning I don't think this concept ever would have been introduced all right thank you trying to figure out a way to comply okay well it seems like we're on the same page about that um okay thank you Kelly yeah you're welcome thank you so do we want to go to the PowerPoint that's been revised sure uh I mean I maybe first we should should we agre should we discuss those changes if we want to further and and may maybe have a consider a motion um to adopt those changes I don't think we have a choice and and I honestly don't think that most of these are consequential enough I mean the big consequential piece of this is is is far broader than these little details right Nina anything no no nothing John no comments on the changes no comments you're just you're just just so the public is aware you're just referring to the um the CH the hlc yes recommended yeah right yeah those four changes right plus the one the belts and suspenders I would move that we adopt them I'll second that yeah okay all in favor I'll incorporate those in to the working final proposal okay okay and then if we could have the public if you're going to have a your own conversations if you could take them into a different space please that'd be great we're having a meeting so do you want to transition to the PowerPoint or well there there were no updates to the PowerPoint um but I would want to reiterate some of the points Point um from the the the PowerPoint um I did meet with the wind mayor board and a small group of the Meadowwood residents um to reiterate some of these points as well uh since the last meeting um but essentially to reiterate uh the topic of eminent domain has come up repeatedly um and as we pointed out in the last meeting it is an unlikely scenario um I can't imagine that the state would have gone through this entire process to then um take Land by eminent domain uh when they could have done it at the very beginning um also there are 177 communities uh in the state in this category uh so they would have to significantly have a lot of overhead um for the state to do that um they likely wouldn't zone right in us can we and just can we since we have Paul here about the eminent main isn't there maybe talk about eminent domain just so we have it about what the state can and can't take and sure so so there has to be a legitimate public purpose for the for a state or a municipality to take property via eminent domain the kilo decision um addressed this was issue in Connecticut where there was a town that was doing an economic Redevelopment project and they took private property via emminent domain to basically turn over to a developer to develop a project that the the town thought would be economically beneficial to the town that went all the way up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court upheld that as a legitimate use of the eminent domain power there was a lot of backlash to that decision a lot of municipalities changed their state laws to prohibit that sort of taking Massachusetts has not so that is still a legitimate action that could be taken by a municipality or a state um but again anytime that imminent domain is used they have to pay um the fair market value of the property is it for econom economic development not for housing right I thought there was a case study that actually said that they can't take it for housing but they can take it for like like an economic commer like something that's I mean I I think that there has it ever happened in intrinsically um combined okay development of housing is directly related to Economic Development I don't think that that's a distinction that a court would find but again they have to pay the the full fair market value and when you're talking about properties that are already developed already have an existing use that is a valid viable continuing use the likelihood of that ever happening is minuscule um it has it ever happened in Massachusetts that you know of no not that I'm aware of I mean so there have been situations where property has been taken by economic development companies um via eminent domain for economic development it has happened it does happen but you know they they required to make a determination that those properties are blighted I I don't think that we have anywhere in the the areas that are being designated as NBTA districts blighted properties um I I don't think that there's any realistic chance anytime in the near future of of the town or more likely the state devoting the type of of economic resources that would be necessary in order to to do that sort of a taking I don't think that you would be able to show you know that there was a for it um I I just don't think that there's a real legitimate concern that this is going to happen certainly not in chelsford there may be other towns where or cities in which MBT MBTA Community locations are identified that perhaps are actually blighted in that an eminent domain process may make sense and and maybe the state would get involved in that um but it would it would take I think some very very unique circumstances um where they would feel that the there was a value to taking the property paying the fair market value for it and moving forward with a development and I don't see any likelihood of that happening and that would be likely only if the town or municipality is not complying because if they're complying then there's no reason for the state to take it over I I I don't see any evidence that the state has any desire to to spend money to to create this this housing that's beinged by the statute I think it's it's at this point in time it's strictly a zoning question they want to require the rezonings to happen and there's there's no plan for them to spend money to actually make the housing get constructed let me let me ask another question I'm I'm a little confused as how MBTA and Emin domain are even related that is you completely without the NBTA statute or changes or anything if the state had the power to take a particular area for economic development it could do it whether or not MBTA existed correct so MBTA is a completely separate issue from from eminent domain they're utterly unrelated at least that's what I'm proposing I mean my presumption is that there is a fear that once certain areas are rezoned that there is going to be an attempt to exercise eminent domain to take those properties and develop them consistent with the rezoning right but if the state were crazy enough to do that they could do it without the MBTA zoning being in place or they could pass legislation or they could pass more legislation but it wouldn't it wouldn't be related in the least to the NBTA zoning itself yeah I just don't think the state has the extra funds to do they it's like if you look at what we're proposing they cost $170 million to do that at today's market value and that's that's just that's just one town one town yeah like I with the deficit that they have I don't think they have the the I just don't see them ever doing this they probably don't even have the political appetite no I'm sure don't this is all dollar sense again there there may be locations with with the support of a local municipality right and where it makes sense to do that there actually is a legitimate Economic Opportunity where there is value in doing that but it it wouldn't be in a town like chumford it's going to be someplace where there actually is a blighted area which may or may not be in an NBTA District separate question but yes there were a couple other things um that I wanted to highlight um the other concern that we heard last meeting was uh property values decreasing and there is a letter um from the board of assessors attached to our agenda this week um that does address that topic and that it is unlikely to decrease um property values um so that was another concern that came up um and I think those are really the highlights of of the meetings uh people did voice concerns I did try and and uh talk to the residents about the process that we went through again um and uh talked about a lot of the points that we brought up so so just to clarify you met with uh I met with the windamir board and a group of Meadowwood residents was there any engagement with anyone on Littleton wood CR um no okay in both cases they reached out to me okay I think cuz I know that one point I spoke to Judy Carvin who lives um on 110 she was going to um reach out to me but I haven't heard back from her okay there we want she said say some people did have some concerns um we also there was also I I think we got an email that someone had brought up um you know their you know their concern as to why there is a need for housing you know why aren't we looking at it why aren't we using this opportunity BTA to look at the other side the other side right and just so everybody's just to reiterate the reason why we're not using MBTA is because if we want to address that we want to control it as the town of chumford like the MBTA has very strict rules so we there's only so much we can do um if we want to address additional housing in chumford we want to be able to have that flexibility to do it in a manner that fits our town um with you know whether height number of units in a particular area so that's why we did not take this opportunity with the MBTA um to do that it did bring it to the Forefront that we started looking at every property in chelsford and along those lines we identified a several areas that we thought might be look worthwhile looking at to develop um or to consider development of and and most of them were areas that we wanted to do um retail or commercial on the ground flooor potentially and housing on the second and maybe third floor and um we have had a few um articles come before T meeting about the kind of the village areas and there was a member today I think of North chumford who asked that we look at North chumford as a village um area that would be amendable to uh maybe an overlay district with looking at kind of Village Redevelopment um with retail on the first floor and and I I think that's kind of an identified as a priority by this board as something that we want to look at the areas um that we could kind of tighten up the or relook at the overlay districts that we have and maybe think about for instance if vinyl square is not included you know what what areas that aren't included that we might want to include um and and yet have more um ability to regulate that without having to give over to a or like or instead of having like 15 units per um wait yeah have a lower density lower density or you know like like again we want to be like you know missing middle the missing middle right you know there's certainly opportunities and we will continue to look at all the areas for that but we just like this just tied our hands too much to take this to use the MBTA to do that um and just felt that it would be too detrimental to the town and the and the citizens of this town at this point especially where that would be promoting development we're really not pro promoting development right now we're we're checking boxes for the state the way I look at it yeah yeah okay so I guess now we're at the point of um opening up to the public if there's nothing else that anyone else wants to say at the outset and so we'll open it up to um public comment on the MBTA and you know we I I wasn't here last week I was unfortunately or fortunately on a um um trip of a lifetime but um I did watch the meeting and I would just like to say that we're I'm going to request as there was quite an abundance of people who wanted to speak and I'd like to give everyone the opportunity who wants to speak but I'd I'd ask that you be concise and not repeating the same point that your previous speakers have made and also first of all identify Yourself by name and address hello I'm Christopher zeroski woodrest Condominiums um I'm not speaking on behalf of the association I'm just an owner um I'll try as you say not to repeat what was remarked upon before which was the meeting of the 28th um I have a slightly different concern your intention is to comply with the letter of the law without actually promoting real development in the case of ruling out what I might call legitimate developers that's probably a good theory but I think there could be unscrupulous developers that might capitalize on the situation somehow I've used my imagination as to how somebody who has a nefarious purpose might try to leverage things it's kind of convoluted admittedly but then unscrupulous people have their own motivations so that's why I don't really like this uh proposal it's not the eminent domain thing it's just unscrupulous developers trying to leverage themselves into the situation I think broadly speaking if you create a space that doesn't allow legitimate development by default you're creating out an an opening for illegitimate developers and I don't know if there are defense mechanisms to prevent that some sort of procedure to vet developers to make sure that they're legit and they're not trying to screw people out of their homes so that's it well we don't imagine anyone being screwed out of their homes Michael Fulton eat mfield way in the um windir complex I'm not speaking for the board but I am essentially in a butter two Meadow Wood and the UMass low property from either my kitchen window or the sink window whatever um so I had several concerns I have four now that I just listened to the discussion about you get into talked about the um the board has developed this strategy that they think is going to comply with the law yet uh we won't have to build anything uh I'm not so sure how the governor feels about that or all the rest of the people um I have a concern that if 177 communities take the same approach that the legislature will go back and change the law yeah and that they will tweak it to make it more of a uh a mandate to actually build this housing I was actually shocked to think that they actually drafted this law and there's actually no teeth in it that actually forces the housing to be built seems like an exercise in futility but uh that's one concern um the other uh that uh talked you talked about using the condominium complexes and you putting them in the overlay because you don't think it would ever happen there um I have learned that it's is legally possible under the condominium documents if you get a sufficient percentage of owners to agree to basically do the condo it can be done uh which means that I think about 20% of people are going to be forced to leave the other 80% could vote to sell out and move on um and the tonight listening to uh you discussed the manuche of what all these technical points about what would actually apply what would not apply makes me nervous because now you're thinking they're talking about all this stuff is it really possible or or likely maybe it's just your due diligence I don't know so um the last thing is that um I think myself my wife and Eddie mfield in windir in Meadowwood uh have already done their part in this whole exercise of building housing we have 394 units that are currently permitted that are under construction uh within earshot of of uh without opening the windows which is fine uh so I frankly would rather see somebody else take the risk rather than rather than us um with this proposal so thank you h blaz o 19 AUST away in the village at metwood and this time I'm only speaking for myself I as most of the board knows I was not in favor of this at the last meeting and so I did something that I'm not sure a lot of people did I did a lot of homework and I probably worked on this as much as you guys did but I did it in two weeks and I found out that what you have proposed to the town is the best thing possible for the town and I'm for this at a 100% I know I'm leaving or plan to leave but I still think that chelsford has been my home for 25 years I don't want it to change I also want to say that I hate two people I've reached out to a lot of people I've heard from people in Boston I've heard from talk to people in other towns I do have to say that I reached out to um Dedra and she was in Morocco and she very kindly answered me immediately which I thought was really good and I think that somebody like that needs to be reelected to the planning board and then the other person the other person is been Chris and he spent a lot of time with with mealwood he he went over everything and it I I then talked to um a lot of people in the town um Sam chase a few others uh Virginia some um we're all set going your way and I'm sorry that I did not do that before I went into this but my feeling is you you can disagree you anybody can disagree and I disagreed very loudly last time I'm telling telling you if this town doesn't get this I'm sorry but that's my feeling thank youen thank youen all Doug Chandler 47 Augusta away meow wood I have a question for Nim Cog and possibly Town Council uh does the exchange of emails and all the things that you just voted on tonight does that indicate a final approval by the state of our plan or you got more hurdles to go through and more reviews by somebody else want to take that Kelly sure I I don't believe that that is a final approval that still needs to be the the review of whatever changes are sent back to the state and then we would get their final approval then correct yeah I can go on the microphone too real quick um just so it's recorded So we submitted this to the state for a 90-day review so that we that the board would then have the confidence that whatever is put before town meeting if town meeting votes to approve it would be compliant with the law that is why we submitted it to the state for review the state has basically conditionally approved based on the changes that we've discussed so I the point in that is so that the board and town meeting could feel confident that if they vote in the affirmative on these amendments we the town would be in compliance with the law um we have talked with the state with um staff from hlc about the proposed changes that are up here right now um and those have all been confirmed to be compliant with the law so I think if there were substitute motions on the floor at town meeting or something else those could potentially put it out of compliance so I think what is being put forward here if the board votes to approve it um that would be in compliance with the law thank you Kelly uh that's that's uh satisfies me completely as a private citizen in Meadowwood I I'd like to uh say to the board that that I and a lot of the people that I talk to especially after your visit to clarify things for us uh I want to thank the board for doing the best they can making making the best that that we can out of a really bad situation it doesn't mean we're not mad but we're not mad at you thank you hi Joshua warhurst I live at 232 Princeton Street so not in the Meadowwood windir community um just outside I really appreciate it from a distance um so I'm actually probably the first person to speak in favor of the MBTA communities law I think that not necessarily the way it's gone about in the in the public hearings um but that the need for the state to build more Community uh to build more housing in areas that are Transit accessible I know personally living in north chelsford north chelsford is quite Transit accessible um you know I I bike to work in Andover there's MBT uh LRTA um bus lines that go through it's very walkable I walk to Market Basket to grab groceries um and restaurants nearby so it's a nice place if you build more housing not everybody's going to have to drive to wherever they need to go so I think it's a good area um and I'm actually Pro if you ever want to include just like a little blip out include my house into that zone um I understand that the reason that you're not doing that is because if that were to happen somebody could buy it my property at some point and just build a apartment building there right and that that wouldn't necessarily be the the direction the town wants to go but if you ever decide to you know want to carve out a little blip put my house 232 Princeton it's you know you can include it um I that's that's much I believe in the the value of this law uh so I'll let that sit thank you so much I do think that the goal of this boort if the goal is to not build new housing um you know because the fact is that area that's being built in uh the old umlo campus and windir and um that the the condo complex I understand that the desire for Builder to go and buy up all that useful land and redevelop it is silly right um technically um it's cost prohibitive cost prohibitive they like they lose so much money that like they they just wouldn't do it like I mean I hate to say the net gain on units they there's no there's no Net game they're losing for I mean even even like my house you know it's it's a relatively working house we have Heating and Cooling um you know so I doubt that somebody would necessarily go and buy it up but if if they want to and put a condo there you know um Power to them so that's all I have to say thank you so much for Designing it in the way that you think is beneficial for chelsford and um Good Luck thank you than hello Mike Moore 7 aable Road and the Precinct 5 town meeting rep uh just a few questions as I try to wrap my head around this prior to town meeting actually and the first involves the uh lawsuit against Milton um I would assume that at some point that's going to get decided is there any estimated timeline as to when that works its way through the court system so you're talking about the lawsuit that the Attorney General's office has filed it's you know within the last month since they filed it you're probably talking years before it actually okay goes through the full trial process and a decision is issued okay so so I guess that sort of negates my next question is why wouldn't we just delay anything until that's settled it's not an option or we be the next ones being sued um but let's if they if they lo you know wouldn't it depend on how so they've already I think they in negotiations is what's they've already pulled funding from and we have um we have Kelly here who can she was on a call with um I forget with the state um so they've already pulled their funding yep um and the state could actually come in and dictate to the town where they're going to build well that's what they've asked the court for correct right they don't have that power right now do they yeah they do do they really we let the courts decide but okay I mean I'll take you I'll take you your word that that's uh put well all well it's not stated directly in the statute but that's certainly part of the relief that the the state is looking for right so it it could be a result but but at that point we haven't actually said no we've just simply said why don't you win or lose and then go from there well there's timelines in which the town has to adopt zoning or they wind up in the exact same situation Milton is now that that Milton actually adopted the MBTA zoning um they have a representative town meeting okay representative town meeting voted in favor of the zoning there was an article put onto a general election to essentially resend the town meeting approval that passed yeah so that's when the state decided that they were going to file against the town so you answer question thank you just trying to understand the the timing and the the you know the logic behind going forward um the actual town meeting warrant that will be asked to vote on I'm is that so that we would are approve or disapprove the plan as presented not approve or disapprove doing MBT MBTA zoning period right there's two different questions we're answering the first one we're approving your plan as it as it stated okay is if if that goes in the no Direction what happens at that point back to the drawing board we have a fall meeting to we hav't yeah do it again do it again okay is is there already sort of a priority list of what the next ones are I mean I think the only thing we we we we believe that we need to follow the law so we believe that we need to bring to the town meeting a plan to comply so then we would have to come up with a different plan right and we've already decided that this is the best plan available to us so then we would have to bring to town meeting a less desirable plan and and I I get that I guess my question is is is there some um some more definition of to the less desirable plan that could be available to town meeting before they take that vote well well if you talking specific properties that we've discussed or or at least some sense of priority you know if you're voting no on this this is what's next that's sort of my board never got there there are a couple if this is voted down at town meeting the planning board is put into a difficult situation because there are potentially three reasons why someone might vote no at town meeting they don't like the zoning bylaw itself they don't like the areas that we've selected or they don't think that we should comply right if the planning board then has to come up with a new solution we are going to have a really difficult time coming up with a new solution that would address all three okay and and this is your only shot at this particular solution did I hear that correctly in the last no we could do it again we could do it again at town meeting but it's going to be very difficult because we won't know necessarily why it would fail we don't know if people just don't agree with the zones we don't know if they don't agree with the wording of the bylaw or if they're just voting no because they don't agree we should comply MH so to come back to a new town meeting right and present something that we then are able to pass it's going to be extremely difficult especially given the timeline okay okay that's uh those are the questions I had thank you good evening Rick Mahoney uh 8 door Rock Circle um also on the uh wind board of directors but I missed Chris's meeting on Saturday and other other arrang other deals going on had a couple of questions uh one I understand and Chris met with my fellow members of the board that we are windir is a residential zoned area at the present moment we're going to be going to a multifamily zoned area based upon this uh first question is how quickly does that take place in other words town meeting is the 24th this goes through which frankly I think is a done deal already but this goes through does that mean we're multif feeling the next day uh it's still got to be approved I believe still has to be approved by the Attorney General's office which is generally 90 days okay but essentially we' become we've gone from residential to multif family in the space of a couple of months well the underlying zoning is always always the same it doesn't you you just have an overlay this yeah I'll take this so the underlying zoning will remain single family residential the overlay that goes this is for which which which this is windir windir particular but windir Meadowwood all that area all that area there essentially no well no oh no all all properties actually windamir is RB RB single family metalwood underlying is industrial okay IA so if this overlay passes your underlying zoning Remains the Same and this overlay essentially gives um any overlay gives a developer the option of building and developing for the underlying zoning or the overlay right and this is I mean the whole idea of this is the O is for the overlay to meet the MBTA requirements as a town part of the MBTA requirements on their zoning is that there's no age restriction if we become multifamily because this overlay does our AG restriction go away no no no the property that's being stated somewhere that's going to be put in documentation somewhere the zoning itself we can't say this district is age restricted the over say that in the properties within all right cuz the town to chel owns 14 homes in windir 40 there are 1440 b homes in windir we're at 25% 10% we passed that a long time ago what's to stop the town of chord from putting multifam putting younger people young younger families into those 14 homes so a couple things the the zoning cannot be age restrictive but the properties and the owners of those properties and can have age restrictions on their properties so the conduit Association can still keep that that um age restriction that will not change with the zoning windir is a 40b we have 14 40b homes so you you have the option you the opportunity because we don't get to approve who goes into those homes no the other homes we get to look at who's coming in no one has any ability to change the 40b uh reg no I'm not trying to change the 40b town can't go in and change those those rules that's an age restricted 40b okay that's the documentation that's not that's not that's not ever going to change well I mean if we get bought out by some developer so the the MBTA overlay M has no interplay with the current 40b the the only way the MBTA zoning a no age restriction 15 units an acre comes into play is if the condo ass Association votes to dissolve right and then a new developer comes in with a MBTA project right presumably to demolish everything right and And to clarify a developer can come in and propose an over 55 development in an NBTA Community what the town can't do is require that a certain you know percentage of a project be0 um be age restricted okay um also there are again this is there are two part you've got two Parcels that you've set up you know one about three or four miles apart from each other what does to stop a developer from coming in and trying to and cherry-picking the particularly the west west campus Meadowwood windir area that meets the 50 contiguous Acres property it's 57.7 buildable ACR so it means 50 contiguous Acres could they just could a developer come in and just say I want to build in this area here and then you know obviously make offers to everybody and buy everybody out and all that stuff that could that happen and could they do it at 29.5 units per acre instead of 15 units because it's only 50 acre prop property so a developer could come in and if they had the money purchase if if the condo association dissolved and agreed to sell they could come in and again if they had the additional funding to demolish the units demolish the units and then if they had the additional funding on top of that build let me let me for inst and we would be able to not allow a a 5 10 story building because that's in these bylaws let me let me give you just for instance I mean there 50 50 acres 30 units per AC 20 and a half 30 units per AC that's 1500 units okay somebody that's if you had 1,500 units and you sold them half million dollars a piece you got $750 million to play with that's your kitty you could buy out all 128 current homes there at 2 million a piece that's $250 million M minuse all right you can buy west west campus has got nothing on there now except a bunch of dirt all right it's going to get I mean they're working seven days a week right now but there not there's nothing in there right now they could offer those guys double what they pay for the land they're under a contract with the town yeah there's there's a development agreement that limits what can be done on that property um so and that runs do mean new develop new develop buys he comes new development development the development agreement runs with the land so anybody that purchases it is still subject to it unless it's unless it's for the MBTA process no no they're still subject to the development agre agreement well they so they put 400 un and they put a whole bunch of units in windir and windir and metalwood they can then make up their numbers but they don't make like I don't know what you're going the 30 units per acre we're we're only all by the way a 50 acre continuous is I think it's it's 50 they can do up to 29 half 29.5 unit Zoning for 15 15 based on 100 acres not based on 50 our plan is 15 based on 100 acres and two separate properties exactly I'm just saying he goes on one property at 50 AC 15 units per acre The Zing the zoning bylaw will only allow 15 units per acre regardless not sure I agree with you on that one um but no no acre in there would have more than 15 right we did that on purpose so we did that specifically I think you might find that they may interpret it differently if it's a 50 acre property as opposed to 100 Acre property we've had so but then again it's all that's why we had legal coun look at it to make sure that that's what we I mean this is also a Cornerstone of Mari Healey's thing so the other and the two words I'm not worried about am domain the two words I'm worried about are tax credits that's what's going to get developers going hi I'm Jan Spence for dor KN Circle I chair the board at windir um I'm just I have a few questions all right and and Mr lavali was very nice he did come out and speak to us however there are a lot of issues going on I've heard a lot of people on this board even say I believe or we don't think or we you know or we do think or whatever about a certain part of this project you're asking us to take a leap of faith here there's two separate areas of town that you're saying we we're trusting that we have the right idea of what's going to happen here and I I also have a reservation this is going to town meeting as an article you don't have a guarantee yet that the state is accepting it I know they expect too that yes you've got an assumption that yes it's accepted you don't have a definite and that's a concern I mean I don't understand why this town would even put it on the um put the article on the agenda for town meeting unless you had a definitive answer from the state that this proposal was acceptable I think we got that we did get that you got a a definite answer pretty definite well pretty that's the thing by the time we so then we come back in the fall if they don't accept it this is a process it's a just a process that's all it is my feeling was I I thought it would be smarter and I've sat at town meeting for 30 years I thought it would be smarter to hold it off until the fall when you had a definite I don't understand why we have to vote on it first that you it's not definite until we vote on it I no no I'm talking about the state giving an acceptance of yes this proposal will work the thing I think we can get right as close to an approval as you're going to get before a town meeting approves it and submits it formally is that because of the time timing of town meeting no no it's because that's the that's the preapproval is the way the state set it up so no one no Town that's going through this will have their approval before they present it to their town meeting corre correct okay we'll get something very similar to what jumer got all right now does anyone on this board at this point know how many towns in the in the state have um decided to go against this proposal we all know about Milton but how many others I know there are 177 that are involved in MBTA zoning I think they're going through the process and I think some have been voted down and they're going again to to regroup come up with another plan so they're just set back right no but I know like Le Lex littleton's won littleton's Lexington did did accept it last year Lexington like did Lexington's ahead of us con's were ahead of us I think uh I mean I don't know what like but there's a lot of towns who have have I understand why you did what you did why you picked certain areas that you know the thought process I get however it just seems like you're asking us to really have a leap of faith in how this is really going to play out for us I'm not overly concerned I'm old enough I'm going to be gone before you know anything takes place here however it it I I'm concerned for the people who will come on to are into the association and you know not have known all about all of this that that's going on now and you know it is concerning and you know we went through accepting West Campus and everything and all of the houses the apartments being built there and whatever and that went through now you're back like it's almost like you're back for a second bite of the Apple you know and it's like why wasn't another area chosen we get that it does seem that way it does that's the thing I know you've got a hard job not picking on you not fighting with you or whatever and I do understand why you did what you did but you have to un understand our concern thank you so much can I just address one thing I do understand it is a leap of faith and one of the things I've learned um being on this board for the last year is that zoning itself is essential leap of faith all of these overlays all of the zoning bylaws that we um work through and and try to enact it is all about a leap of faith because we cannot with 100% certainty predict how these are going to play out um the business overlays that were put on in uh 129 the thinking was that it would attract business it may not have attracted as much business as as the board had hoped um but all of the work that we're doing is a leap of faith it's anticipating the future as best we can and making the right decisions that we can and and just to add and that's why it's really important I mean you know we're all volunteers we you know we've run I know I came on the board because I didn't like um how certain zoning you know was being enacted it's really important to vote people in that represent you that represent what you want in this community like if if you know I'm not doing something that doesn't work for you then you should vote me out right like I can't stress enough I think Chris made perfect Point zoning is all about a leap of faith and it's really important in local government to get out and vote for people who represent you hi Jan Das I Circle I just have a few things to say one why isn't the state suing the other they're only suing Milton they're not going after Holden they're not going after Middleboro they're not going after Littleton they're not going after Le the only people they're going after is Milton because they haven't missed their deadline yet exactly Holden said no a long time ago they missed their deadline a long time ago except for littleb has missed their deadline they said no don't tell me they haven't missed it they had to missed their deadline and they've said no and the state has not gone after those towns so Holden in middleb would have the same deadline that chelmford has they are not one of the those in communities that had to pass their MBTA zoning by law sooner right Milton was one of those communities they had a deadline they didn't meet that deadline the Attorney General's office has filed litigation against them and like you say it's going to take years for it to be settled certainly and any other additional municipality once they get to a point where they have not adopted the zoning pursuant to their deadline I am sure we will face the exact same consequences that Milton has okay but why not ban together with all these towns ban together with them fight the state fight the state do you really trust the state of Massachusetts I don't I don't trust them I mean yeah okay they're saying okay it's okay you you can say that you're just going to Zone it and we're not going to build we're not going to make you build I do not trust that I don't believe that if they want you to Zone it they want you to build it why would they want you to Zone it and and say okay it's okay you don't have to build that doesn't make any sense that doesn't make any sense at all if you Zone it they're going to build it I'm sorry they want you to Zone it because they want to build it okay they're not telling you to Zone it just to make it oh okay it looks pretty on paper no they want you to Zone it because they want you to build it it doesn't make any sense to Zone something and say okay we're not going to build dor thank you well I'm just saying I mean you know I mean and another thing I want to say too is okay if you want to in a city if you want all these big high rises go live in a city leave my town [Applause] alone good evening my name is Bill Livingston I live at S Donut Circle at chanceford I like to keep the area of windir residential that's what I bought the home that I'm living in now and I bought it because it was residential now all of a sudden we have a a state mandate telling my town my Representatives how they're going to Zone the property to me that's against my Principle as a US citizen that somebody outside my town telling me how I'm going to Zone an area I don't accept that I figure is you know we had the teapot that was taxation without representation the same thing to me is happening here they're coming from the outside coming in telling you people who represent us how we're going to address a situation which may fin financially be devastating to us and then the people of our town chesford are saddled with the problem right now you have like the state they couldn't afford to uh use the emergency money to uh take Lancaster and restore it instead we have 937 million being made for different other areas and uh I just feel as though that we have to leave the zoning to the people and representatives from chensford I don't want to see an overlay and then the overlay is passed and all of a sudden I find out that I'm now Zone multif family and that could be a detriment to me when I sell my home because people ask what kind of zone am I in and if they he multif family that could cause them to B so my question here and my answer is I don't like an outside agency coming from Boston telling the railroad system that was built during the Industrial Revolution What towns were going to be now impacted by this new law that they decided to pass with us without us really having a say in it I think that's contrary to way me as American and as a citizen that they should be acting and as they say I I know what you're doing and I understand what you're doing but the problem is they shouldn't be dictating to us we still have freedom we still ever say is the how our country or how our city or town is run and I don't think this is proper thank you very [Applause] much good evening um my name is Sheila pette I live at 26 shed Lane and First of all I'd like to thank you for your tireless work and your decisions because you have done an enormous job um and I I'm sure that I reflect many of the people here and the people in the town um second I have a question at town meeting I'm a town meeting rep Precinct 10 and we can either vote yes or no on this is that correct so we don't have any input as town meeting representatives to what is put into this law is that correct so why are we voting on it at all the law was passed the legislature so we we don't have can't change it amending can I clarify yeah please so so this is this is a a town meeting warrant article just like any town meeting warrant article there can be amendments proposed as long as that amendment is within the scope of the original warrant article that amendment is then voted upon by town meeting as to whether it's going to be adopted or rejected so there is an ability to to guide the the warrant article through this process it's not just a simple up and down yes or no we've already touched upon the fact that the state has already reviewed the article as drafted and we've got very strong indications that this is acceptable to the state if there are if there are amendments added during the the town meeting process it's a crapshoot as to whether or not those amendments would ultimately be acceptable or not um so that's something you know that the town meeting members should be cautious about when they're proposing a mend ments to this article but it is an allowed part of the process well I'm glad to hear that it's an allowed part of the process and I would encourage anybody in this town to talk to their Precinct representatives to either learn more about this before town meeting or to to ask your representative to vote a certain way um because it would only amendments would only be taken if they're allowed I agree with the gentleman before me these are definitely mandates from the state I don't like to live under mandates let the children guard what our sers have won we're not doing it and also the model of Massachusetts the motto is I've got it here it's it's on the flag but it's in Latin so by the sword we seek peace but peace only under Liberty now there's no way I can find this as Liberty Maybe maybe I'm defining it wrong but I don't think so and I don't like to live under State mandates where we don't have a clear say in our cities and towns so that we can individually have cities and towns and have their own personalities by their own zoning um by their elected representatives and I also think that the state is holding us hostage because if we don't do what they want they will take away from our people now as a town meeting representative I need to represent the people in our town and I need to give them the best that I can by legislation that I vote for in the town level this doesn't really allow me to do that I have to vote a certain way or the state is going to say we're going to take this away from you we're not going to let you do this and that is to the deterioration of the town so um I don't know where I'd finish with this although that I am very disappointed Ed in the state I am very pleased with you and I don't know how to fight against that I'm one person and I want to give the best for chelsford and that's my question thank you thank you Sheila Paul would you mind giving a little thumbnail um hi I'm just going to interrupt for a second if you don't mind um review of the way in which the state is empowered to affect zoning certainly so I I think it's it's something that's probably not very well appreciated but the state actually controls zoning at a local level in in numerous different ways the most obvious of course being chapter 40b which allows waivers of of local zoning requirements and other local requirements such as Wetlands um Board of Health um and o other Town adopted requirements they can be waved as part of a 40b process under chapter 40a which is it used to be called the zoning enabling act now it's just called the zoning act the state sets forth you know limitations and restrictions on what towns can do under zoning um chapter 48 Section 3 lists a number of different uh issues on which the town is not allowed to regulate and that includes the the do Amendment um so religious uses um dayc carees agricultural uses solar uses and and a number of other different uses under chapter 48 Section 3 the state says you can't regulate these issues under chapter 48 section 4 the the state requires uniformity in all zoning districts it specifically requires that each and every zoning district has at least one viable use allowed as of right without resort to any of the exempt uses under chapter 48 Section 3 chapter 48 Section 5 sets forth the process for uh adopting zoning amendments chapter 48 section 6 sets the minimum um non-conformity that has to be allowed by a town so that if you have a use that pre-existed a zoning change there's a minimum amount of um protection for pre-existing non-conforming uses that has to be a lot of by a municipality you can't do less than what the state says is the minimum chapter 48 section 9 sets forth limitations on the grants of special permits chapter 48 section 10 limits the grants of variance and sets very strict guidelines as to what can be done um chapter 48 section 15 sets limitations on public hearings in in the process for zoning relief chapter 4817 sets forth um appeal rights for for parties it's a very very comprehensive statutory scheme in which the state dictates to municipalities what is and what is not allowed I understand that this is really something that it goes beyond what the state has done before that it intrudes upon local zoning in a manner that is fundamentally different than what the municipalities are used to but it is consistent there is a a a long history of the state involving itself in local zoning and this is just part of a Continuum on this particular property also 40b was enacted on that right correct on the Wind miror yeah so it was a 40b project and I just want to add that I don't think any of us are happy with the state right now for doing this however now that it has passed it is a state law and we have to comply with state law the time to fight that is before it's passed and there's we were talking earlier about another example that is running through the state legislature right now where we can fight it and that will have a significant impact on the town as well so that is the time when we need to to band together and fight against the state passing these laws is before they're passed as they're coming through the legislature once they are passed we as a board have a duty to comply with the state law even though we may not like it because we can't pick and choose which state laws we have we can follow excuse we're we're you have to walk up and there's someone ahead of you you got to get in line okay okay thank you Paul thank you are you ready can I can I ask one more question of Paul before 4A or whatever its predecessor might have been what were the rights of a town to Zone did it towns have any rights to Zone at all or was that a power granted to the towns by the state it was it was a power granted to the town by the state that's why it was called zoning Ena exactly what I was thinking so so basically anything that you can do with zoning is something that's been given to the town by the state not something that's been taken away from the town by the state correct although there is still you know strong undercurrent of local rule associated with zoning and I understand you know the conflict that's present here because of that okay hi um Pamela Davies 29 Washington Street in North Chelmsford I really hate public speaking so I was really hoping someone else would say this first um but uh the housing shortage regionally is just a huge detriment to Economic Development and so I totally support the mbta's spirit of what they're going for and uh after being here tonight I really appreciate what you guys have done um coming into it I didn't understand the thought process and I think what you've done it it works um I also wanted to boost the message of um doing an overlay District in vinyl square I think that would be a great fit um I also appreciated Sam Chase's email um suggesting that uh Transit Orient development Transit oriented development um is actually a boost uh for the economy um I find that to be true uh I don't I wanted to say to everyone who's concerned about uh this lowering property values is that it often doesn't um also as a municipal grant writer um I really hope that this passes at town meeting I really uh encourage everyone here who's a town meeting rep or who is going to speak to their town meeting reps to encourage us to pass this so that we don't jeopardize any of our funding so that's all thank you thank Youk you thank you speaking um since I have questions uh I should speak about myself uh I live in 181 Lon Road um uh in the condo complex or the crest condo minum I'm representing um you can say myself and also some of my uh friends that who also lived in this uh area and like that's U around there is our condo um from our condo complex so I'm a immigrant so I I may not very familiar with the law um I did a little research on the zoning um even not as much as the representative um so I also heard about the mountain that they have a basically the tongue um against the state um even though I don't know too much of the the details of the about the law proceeding um but I feel like if the zoning um if this is something that we can't have a say or at least have opinion um we should uh not uh first we have two part like so the zoning if the this is related to MBTA zoning so I just feel like um this will risk our like um the place where we live we have to move or we have to if some of my friends they want to leave their uh properties to to their children so that will impact them they have to move and run to other places and also I'm actually a little doubtful how much the development will beneficial the people is already leaving here um I understand affordable housing is good for the people but uh why don't we uh you know also considered people already living here and uh you know developing some other areas that uh is more uh reasonable yeah thank you that's all okay as you all know I don't like doing this but I'm going to first I want to thank a lot of you board members that have taken time after meetings talking to me to help me understand I'm sitting here tonight going am I the only person that doesn't know what the hell is going on with all these numbers and words and stuff and so many people got up and said what I want to say so eloquently so I don't know what's going to come out of me but here it goes you know I have and I've been jotting down notes so I'm going to be all over the place but um I am so against this I don't understand if we're joining all of the Meadowwood windir and um and um what's going on at UMass now if we join all this and they can't build anymore up there why the hell are we doing this where are they going to build they want houses right yeah so you want us to supply something that would be developed is that what well no my my biggest Factor right here is I'm done with the building in in chel especially North chel I can't breathe anymore I've got this all around me I don't think there's anyone not to whine but truth be told I don't think there's anybody in Chet that has dealt and has been surrounded with so many units I don't want to live in this but I am living in this and it's fine if you want to I don't think anybody is surrounded as much as I am so if we're and I appreciate all the work you guys have done I I understand you're in a h spot but so are the people and you know everybody's worried about their home I'm worried about my home too because I mean that's your safe that's your safe haven when the world is crazy that's your safe haven and I don't want to lose my home that's right I've I've been there forever my my husband's grandmother that's where we started I don't want to lose my mark on north chfi um so I don't understand if we're including all this housing in and the state's looking for housing they want more housing to deal with all these people where are we going to put it my fear is I know you've told me that they can't the Builder can't do any more at you Mass but if it's passed by the MBTA um they're going to sneak more in I know that there's a development agreement have a development that can't be built more units first of all and second of all when we brought when we started on the on the that project we they the state had just passed and was clarifying the MB the MBTA zoning law and and so we actually sent the development plan plan to the state and said is this if we approve this development agreement will this be counted in will this be compliant with the MBTA zoning and they they assured us that yes it would be in my mind in my mind those are our units that are getting built for because it is being built now right yeah yeah even though we passed it we we passed it CU we already every Community is going to get hit differently so that's the reason why it was passed with four stories cuz I was shocked I thought there's no four stories in nor chood why would they do that four stories that was what was presented to us at T meeting when we voted on it this would count for end one less building going four stories or something like that if I remember correctly well I you know I mean I don't my dad died very young but he taught us two things well he taught us many but two things and I will always remember them he told me that we will destroy ourselves with money and we are with greed we have more Builders coming into this town building everywhere you don't knock down a house right by the Glen VI now they knock down a house and I thought oh two more are going in it's not two more it's two duplexes that are going in and I I'm I'm like I've had it you know there's more de you know the Glen viw was a sweet little place and how many did they put there I've had it it's like enough of is enough so I don't and the other thing so greed and the other thing my dad told me was if you can count on one hand people that you trust you're a lucky person well the state is not on my hand for sure and there's a lot of other you know I'm sorry um what else do I had to look put the glasses on and I just I don't like I want the building to stop all in enough CH in ch or two because we're going to lose funding I understand that but the schools are already overloaded my grandchildren in schools they're supposed to be like what 18 in the classroom they're running 22 right now when this MBTA uh um Mass L thing is finished there are going to be tons and tons of kids but I was told at meetings oh there won't be a lot of kids I don't know who's running this show but we have a good CH at school system and people are going to be coming out from low it's right on the line and I there'll be you know two people to a unit there'll be four people to a unit no one's going to watch the store of seen it um in the fire department we'll have to buy a new fire truck that's a million or whatever and then you'll have to hire three more men to serve that firet truck that's another million to lose a million in Grants doesn't make sense in the water in the water I mean I don't understand how and the traffic already I can't get out of my driveway and they're not even moved in yet I don't understand how it's like the traffic was was told to us that it wouldn't be a problem the water was told that it wouldn't be a problem I don't know how we can keep supplying like let's say just 400 more units up there and it's not going to affect us just my water show if my shower my water gets less I'm speaking of but um so I I don't know what we're doing to our town by putting all this in here and um so never NE you know I I live by Never Say Never and I'm tired of the builders getting rich in our developments uh building all these developments and uh what else did I want to say here I just believe that the state will do anything they have to to get what they want and if they have to do EMT domain they will I've had it happen to my my my husband's father's house was taken by em domain years ago and I had it happen in my family too two homes eminent domain it happens um I guess it is I made it out made it without passing out of you uh Stephanie maltz live I live at woodrest and nobody from woodrest has been talked to us I guess so um you know I understand what you're thinking I finally think I understand how you're thinking about taking these two communities they're so developed that it's probably most probably not going to ever happen I understand that however what if maybe this year maybe next year let's say you choose one of ours let's say it's woodrest and maybe not this year next year two years from now five years from now we get a letter from the state saying you you know we want to use your property to develop so that's a fear that's a fear that I think most of us will be living with if you choose one of us we will be the sacrificial lamb and it's going to be a really stressful situation I don't know about anybody else but for me it's going to be devastating so it's going to be a really bad situation to live in the area knowing fully well that the the ball could suddenly hit you and go guess what you have to go so you mentioned last time on the 28th that you had a developer approach the town wanting to build on brick clean Road and you chose not to do it you felt it was too not a good situation to do it at this time riverneck no that was brick K Road you mentioned that first one was brick Hill wasn't it rck was another it was Davis company asked us to uh include their parcel in the MBT okay so then we decided not to I understand because you felt there was a burden on the town because of schools would have been developed this year like it would get I understand that but that would have been a burden on the community the full town but why make one of us have that burden single us out to endure that burden now no burden you don't think it's going to be a burden you don't think it's possible that they will do it the state may not do it discuss it earlier I don't know if you were paying attention about are you talking eminent domain from the St not not talking eminent domain what if you get a developer who has the bandwidth and the wherewith all to do it all money he could buy a out lose money there's no way he would do like I ran the numbers right cuz I needed I'm a numbers person I'm a finance person please good I've ran the numbers over and over again and I and I had other people look at it to like vet it out they would lose like $60 million like no one in the right like they can't even break even if they need to buy your property tear it down then pay for new construction Market but are you talking about are you talking about the uh the West Mass area all it I did all of it does not make Financial sense and it's I'm sorry like no one does this to lose money so I mean again if the properties deter like you didn't take care of them they deteriorated and they were worth nothing and they were a blight then maybe they could pick it up and develop it but they would have to buy your prop they lose money and again I don't know what's going to happen in 100 years I'm not saying never say never but I've I like I I but still would be a possibility that's the only thing that's the fear possibility only if they gave you the value of it and everyone else in your complex agreed or whatever your complex agreement is like 60% or 50% or whatever and you de like I just don't see I just don't see about a new buyer that buys into it don't you think they're going to have a little fear about buying into it no we' had the assessor you know like as a realtor you have to notify you have to disclose in writing before they even view the property so would they want to look at it even Chapter 93 dis3 what do you have to disclose you have to disclose any anything that pertains to the property that could be a negative situation for the property I'm sure you have to go into a zoning analysis you don't have to say there's a possibility that the state come in and and say they have to you have to sell well there is always that possibility Universal for every piece of property in the state I personally I live on I b495 yeah when I bought my property she's going to get taken I'm going to be taken they were telling me they were going to take me 30 years ago I'm still here oh um I live with eminent domain because if the 495 is going to get expanded my property will be taken oh okay I mean that's because that's what they did I mean that's what they do when they but I've been waiting and they still haven't come and kind of waiting for them to come now because I could use a nice a bottleneck right there come on and you said you were coming um because it cost the money they have to pay me market value yeah and again like they're only going to do this if they absolutely need to do this okay right like they're not going to do this for the like there's a lot of other needs in the state including expanding highways yeah and there will be a lot of other properties I if it was ever a goal to spend State money to take property by eminent domain to develop it pursuant to the MBTA community's statute there's going to be a lot of other properties where the existing uses aren't as valuable that don't have 10 units per acre or whatever the the density is on these these properties and that's the Delta that you have to be looking at yeah thank thank you both you're all great best you can I'm gonna do a switch on you guys I I heard waiting for this no I don't think you were because I heard Linda say um that on the MB on the UMass property that's the way everybody here will know it on the unass property they've got plenty of land and they can build more houses and they can come come to you guys in my research cure thing there's nothing I haven't uncovered and I have talked to TRL Crow personally and I can tell you that they have given metalwood easements for perpetuity which means to us they cannot we cannot build on that property without anybody that owns the UMass property gives us permission to put even a sign because I tried to put a sign not working so they cannot turn around and they cannot come down and take the land that's in open and if you come in they cannot take that Hill down they own almost all of our land that we've been taken care of for 28 years we thought we owned it we don't then my question to them was big deal Mark what happens when you sell this property well he's probably going to kill me if he's listening I could be in trouble and he might never tell me another thing but trumel Crow invested their money in this property because they believed in it they did not go out like they did in Burlington and other places in Massachusetts and get funding and then sell it after five years they're planning to hold on to this for a long time so we're safe we are safe Meadowwood is safe you're safe because of the under because of the easements yes because of the agreements that are under play that have been filed with the courts we're safe and so and he I'm telling you he they have not backed out on anything that Meadowwood has asked for they even came for something new this week and I told them there was a problem and I said what can you do about it and he said let me think about it and he called me this morning and told me we're going to take care of it and they're taking care of it so anybody that thinks that that's going to be taken is is wrong I'm telling you I trust them I think that everything they have told us has been truthful and I think that they've done more for metwood than any developer in the world and we had started off talking with Handover before them and they were never going to do what traal Crow has done so we're safe as Meadowwood and I don't think that anybody wants to take windir I will tell you if we don't go through with this and and I did they we're we're IA so they can come in somebody that's a big company like they did in Watertown look what they did to russos those people got so much money that they gave it to their workers that can happen to us so I hope that when you're thinking and you're voting and all town meeting reps think about what they can do to the town by saying No thank you um we're we're going to close this part of the meeting you can speak and then we're going to close this meeting because we have other sh I'll be very quick I just wanted to make one clarification we are the one section in that particular parcel being considered for this that has a negative change in zoning we are now residential zoning we're going to go with the overlay to multif family the other area I believe they were they light industrial they're not going to be negatively rezoned we would be that's our concern and the difference between the two pieces of property plus we did not get any consideration in any direction from tremble grow thank you take care guys okay um so we're going to move to I believe the last thing on the agenda which is the are weing are we continuing this meeting to yeah we're continuing the 20 we're yeah can we uh can we just make a motion to pass us on with the Amendments suggested I I would be inclined to do that we don't need to have more public I think we I make a motion I'll take can you make a motion I was going let you wait till EV come back I know where he went how about we break for a second yeah it's take five minutes yeah five minute break you're going to want me back to your next meeting on the 27th oh the for the next I know you want me for the h yes are single people like myself half of them are people who left e e did you did you to the public that that was the board's inclination no no we should probably continue it to next meeting and let people know that there's likely going to be a vote I mean you can do that and we can we can we can get word out that the board intends to close and maybe you're going to limit limit the time that you're going to expend okay that's fine let's do that all that's probably Pol politically you have any um initial except suggested time limit for 30 minutes to start at 7 with a goal of ending at 7:30 the intent of closing and potentially voting your recommendation in that case I'll give can we make sure that's in the agenda public hearing I'll second till the next meeting I'll second all in favor I I okay I no vote next yes thank you next up we have um 41 Central Square Oddfellows project LLC no I think we got hild oh so sorry second to last nice try I was getting ready to go okay sorry about that so I think we're starting with the applicants um traffic study because has that been presented to the board I can't recall no I think it came in the night before two meetings ago do you want to start with the applicants or do you want to jump right to your the applicants already yeah we had it before the last two meetings ago it came I don't know if it was presented to the bo presented I don't think it was kind of presented in a brief summary is that right I think we did that was 191 I've lost track I think it was 191 cuz I remember you specifically saying it it came in late you you hadn't had a chance to review it but the board allowed them to proceed with the presentation I don't know if the applicants have you presented yeah you have okay all right so maybe it makes sense to start with the because we did the presentation and then reviewed it okay so Ken Ho from beta is uh with us tonight thank you thank you Evan uh just for the record um my name is Ken hell with beta group and I'm here uh in place of uh Dennis Flyn if you notice he's the one that signed and did the peer review which I work with him and so uh what I would like to do uh tonight is to um uh if if I may uh I could just briefly provide the board a summary of uh the key components as a peer reviewer this is what we look for in the traffic studies and um once I gone through that uh we actually have uh generated a little over 20 comments and I would like to perhap us summarize of findings instead of going through 20 comments tonight and I can certainly address any other detail questions related to uh findings or you know anything has to do with the uh study so uh so if that's acceptable to the board I I like to proceed with that great uh thank you so as the uh peer review for the town of chamford uh basically our review uh consists of the following key components when we look at a traffic study uh the adequacy of the study area is important uh we want to make sure that the proponent uh in Know cover the number of our intersections and within the study areas as it related to Traffic uh pedestrian activities uh data collection is also very important because we want to make sure that the time of the day the durations and what's being collected the way they collect it so those are all important uh component uh the third items that we look into is the trip generation and the distribution of the uh projected traffic volume so we want to look at the U methodology that they use to estimate the number of vehicle trips that's uh you know generated as part of the new development and of course the overall analysis with the data collected the uh uh you know CHP generation estimations uh the overall analysis uh the the way that's done it's it's important uh to us and finally is the analysis results this is the uh any potential impact associated with this uh development and and what kind of mitigation potentially that the proponent is proposing to to mitigate the the impact and and so in show those are the key components that we look for as we review a traffic study so with that um what I'm going to do is I'm just going to do a quick summary of all the 20 comments that we have uh you know offered as part of the review uh I'm going to go right into the important ones well they are all important but the one that's really uh we think you know that needs to be uh further discussed or address um this first one has to do with the intersection of hildr and uh b r what comment number oh uh my apology so this is the uh comment number three uh the first uh section on the existing uh conditions so comment number three has to do with uh the proponent took a look at that intersection uh this is Bill recur Road and uh hildr and uh they've ident identified the uh the crosswalk if it's anything else and so I think our comment is that um based on the data that's collected uh the crosswalk is very important because it's being used quite a bit uh I think a lot has to do with the school and so as part of this project because you know you are adding 12 units uh there's going to be definitely more pedestrian uh down the road and there are deficiencies uh at this intersection in the crosswalk uh the crosswalk doesn't really meet uh ada8 compliance for example the Rams and also what's more important is um if you're walking from hildr there's no sidewalk so one would assume that people will prop walk on the streets and then cross uh you know b r so we think that uh the proposed development will generate additional pedestrian traffic and to ensure our pedestrian safety especially that the uh pedestrian Rams should be improved and should definitely conform to uh Ada standards and in addition to that uh we think uh you know a sidewalk uh it's important because uh we don't want pedes to be walking on the street so that's really uh you know our uh uh last uh comment related to the intersection there are other components which I will not get into uh the next area that I like to summarize is under the future conditions review and and I'm just going to basically summarize comments one two and three all together because this is all related to the trip generation and the uh distribution so essentially what that is is the uh methodology that the uh proponent traffic consultant estimate at the number of vehicle trips and pedestrian uh down in the future as a result of this uh uh projects so the the estimated new trips during the peak hour commuting and so what that is is the proponent has did a fairly detail traffic count uh back in December 12 which is on an average Tuesday uh from you know 6:30 a.m. to uh 9:00 and then from 2 p.m. to uh 6:00 p.m. so that essentially captures your morning commuting Peak your school well which includes the school uh you know activities and 2:00 which is the school activities and also your evening a commute so so based on all the information the chip generation the estimating that there's going to be approximately 10 to 15 new trips added uh into the roadway systems and that's during the peak am which is uh that 1H hour Peak the highest volume it's between 8 to 9 and the peak evening which is between 5 to 6 so depending on the time of the day it's approximately 10 to 15 new trips added to the system so I think I think those are all important informations and and you know they views industry standard to estimate those of vehicle trip which we are concurred the next item that I wanted to touch on is under the proposed site driveway site distance evaluation and that's comment number five so we had some concern with uh um the site drive that's being proposed uh right at the front age of HR and the concern that we have has to do with the sight line uh we went out to the site and we uh stood at where the proposed site Drive is and we notice there's some sight distant uh concern that we have as part of the site drive and you know there were some proposed landscaping and whatnot so we proposed that the you know Landscaping be a remove and if there anything else we want to make sure that the site distance coming out of the new site Drive uh meets all the requirements and the proponent traffic consultant decided to uh in agree with us and they're going to remove some of the proposed Landscaping uh at the front age of the site drive to make sure that there proper site distance coming out of the project site uh the next comment that we have has to do with uh which is under the uh uh traffic operational analysis and again what I'm going to do is I'm going to try to summarize basically you know Common six through eight and uh the one item that I wanted to discuss which is comment number eight it has to do with uh visitors parking in the future what if someone's going to have a party you know where where where are cars going to park you know and so we have asked if the proposed driveway create a c stack at the end of the projects and we had asked if additional parking could be provided uh particularly at the cult SE just in case you know if there are a lot if there's a big party that guest know where where should they be parking uh so the proponent is looking into it and they're going to confirm that with the fire department and all that to make sure that uh you know additional parking could be provided on the site Drive particularly at the cult SEC area so so I think you know we there some concern that when you have a development such as a subdivision such as this you know if you have a uh a party you know we want to make sure that there's some kind of of accommodation for additional parking the last uh section which actually there's a few sections that I'd like to cover which I think is very important and and this has to do with um the uh recommendations that we have uh um highlight in our review uh comment and and I'm going to try to summarize instead of going through every single one of them uh a comment one through uh seven and and they're all kind of related and and this has to do with the traffic operation analysis specifically on uh uh you know hildr Street uh I think we all know it's a fact that if you go to hrid uh it's it's a very narrow uh two-way roadway and um it it's so narrow that it what traffic engineer use the term is it it could almost serve as traffic calming mainly because it's so narrow people just can't drive fast when you see someone coming you have to slow down and let them pass and so so when we went out to look at the site we we have observed a lot of uh you know there were certainly tire tracks that's outside of the pavement and and the roadway width is in general it's about 15 ft uh wide and and that's substandard uh in today's uh design and uh there are certain areas that's even narrower you the pin Point uh because of trees or vegetation you know less than 15 ft so I think uh as an Engineers you know if you go out to HRI you know it's basically your first observation is that um this roadway doesn't meet uh design standard uh because um a typical roadway with it range from 22 to 24 ft so that two cars can pass uh you know safely um so so I think uh if there's anything else uh there's also as I mentioned earlier there there are no sidewalks uh in addition to the narrow roadway uh pedestrian has to walk uh on the streets and and so so I think um you know is is there room to to to improve or make the road wider so we we did a little collaboration or essentially you know we have inquired uh with the the town uh engineering department and based on the prelimary information that they've given us uh they have uh noted that the uh Town RightWay on hildre uh a good portion of it you know range from you know easy 30 to 40 ft uh wide of roadway so you currently your payment to payment is in general about 15 with some pinch point but but the town actually right away showing is range from 30 to 40 depending on which section that you know you're looking at so so certainly there's room to to widen the road and bring it to a design standard and uh provide at a minimum uh a sidewalk on the uh easterly side which is a side where you walk if you to walk on the east side if there's a sidewalk that would take you to the crosswalk at b r and you would cross uh and and you know go to uh the school in in the report uh there there's also discussion about you know what if you don't widen the Broadway can you make it one way so uh there were a lot of uh uh pluses there were some pluses and there's also some minuses to making it oneway uh the oneway conversion uh basically it really eliminates a lot of the conflict points because it's just oneway the minute you make a two-way into a oneway you minimize reduce all the conflict points so so that's that's a plus and then there's also you know basically you have a 15 foot um oneway you could uh you know perhaps uh you know allow entry parking and and you know there there there are some pluses and there are some minuses that we need to be aware of uh so you're making it one way so the other traffic has to go somewhere right so potential there will be more traffic added to the adjacent streets and there's also the inconvenience you know you can't if you make it one way say for example uh you know coming in from Bill Waker so now if you're leaving you you got you know perhaps drive a little further out to grow and find a way out to a r and if it's anything else it's also a one-way Street sometimes uh has a tendency because it's wider it's oneway you could encourage a car driving faster through uh you know the residential roadway so there are definitely pluses and minuses that needs to be considered and look into and if there's anything else needs to be discussed uh among all the key stakeholders especially the uh the neighbors that lives there because they're the one that's directly impacted um so I think I think you know just in summary very quickly you know the uh proposed project you know will you know add you know 10 to 15 vehicles to the system and there's just definitely going to be more produ walking to school and I give the roadway that's substandard um you know I think uh you know the road um needs to be upgraded uh because you can't just add traffic or pedestrian to a 15t roadway and with pedestrian walking the street and uh you know just for safety for vehicle and and pedestrians and emergency vehicle which I I didn't get to mention earlier on um and and and a sidewalk I think that's that's important uh along a hre so I think I think that's just a quick summary of our findings and you know and I know there are a lot more uh information that we have uh looked into and identify and I can I'm open to discuss so if you have any questions does anyone have any questions I've got a bunch but I'll wait till the end I'll let others go first this time you have the floor welle others look like you're first and last yeah go ahead go ahead because I want all because I'll start done with this all right um so I've got some general comments and questions um so in general I was hoping to have this initial traffic study and the peer review um to be a lot more focused on safety as opposed to Pure volume increases and and um traffic pinch points um but I do appreciate some uh some attention to the safety um the seasonal changes seasonal adjustments that were applied were those in your peer review up were those found to be applied to the current um and the proposed conditions yes yes that's something we look into the the minute when we notice that the count was done in the month of December so the uh you know proponent uh made adjustment uh to you know in the state of Massachusetts there are guidelines that how you should adjust volume and pedestrian as well because you know you know there'll definitely be more pedestrian on a nice uh spring day you know kids walking to school and and all that okay the study was done on in a December day when the morning temperature was 20 and the afternoon temperature was 40 the study showed that I believe some of the morning pedestrian numbers were zero of course they're going to be zero it's a December 20° morning yeah um but the afternoons were a lot higher yes when you do a seasonal adjustment of I think it was 2.6 how do you adjust that with a zero number in the morning because 0 * 2.6 is still 2.0 so it's effectively not adjusting anything yeah so I think at the end of the day the proponent traffic um uh the the data that they have used for for analysis is I think there were about 20 29 uh production volume uh just crossing uh B rer I think I think there were both about 30 in the morning and in the uh evening and uh they did make the adjustment and it it just and you are correct it doesn't make sense to have zero when you at 20 degree uh you know uh a Fahrenheit in in the morning so so they did the proper adjustment and and we think that's reasonable uh for the 30 pedestrian that they have used in the in the analysis okay on in the tables um I don't know if you can bring up the traffic study in the tables for the analysis um it shows the see if I can remember the top piece of the table had the times and the data for 2 to 6 p.m but below that there was some analysis pieces that were ignoring the 2: 3 P.M period and starting at the 4 to six can you explain that methodology yes I I certainly could so so that's a industry standard and so when we uh do data collection uh we do from you know in this case it's 6:30 to uh to 9: uh typically it's from uh 7 7 to 9: and and that's a lot of research being done you know that that's the peak morning period and in the evening it's usually between 4: and 6:00 p.m. um and in this case the proponent had instead of starting at 4 they start at two so we asked them to to include the school day okay oh great great suggestion great suggestion so so typically what we would what we would do is um for analysis and this is again this is industry standard um we look at the highest peak hour within from 2: to 6 uh p.m. so it turns out that the highest volume basically you want to look at the worst case scenario that one p peak hour and that's industry standard uh that we pick that one peak hour and and in this case it's uh you know between the five and six so my concern with that though is that industry standard shows normal intersections not next to a school because this is next to a school we were hoping for the analysis to be done on the entire time frame that we were asking for because the traffic if this weren't next to a school absolutely the traffic would be the typical evening commute y but because this is next to the school that Peak period is essentially bigger than industry standard and it's a unique situation in this case which is why we're hoping to have the analysis expanded Beyond those those uh typical hours yeah so so let me try to explain this a little more then so the data that they collected between 2 and 6:00 p.m. so what they do is they they technically they review all the data between two and six uh while they just pick five and six because that's the highest volume for the analysis uh they also look at the volumes between two and six so they comb through each hour every 15 minutes and if they were to do an analysis of every hour between two and three three and four four and five and five and six if they were to which they could run it that's not a problem the analysis result essentially the worst case would be between five and six and if they were to compare with between two and three it wouldn't be as bad as between five and six so technically they have looked at all the hours between 2 and 6 okay um I would need to look at the tables again but I thought I saw some numbers in the earlier hours that were higher than the later hours yeah they provided all the backup and and I know the proponent traffic consultant is here um you know uh Scott I you know I'm pretty sure you look at all the volumes between two and six uh which we have provided and I I don't believe uh I I believe the highest is between five and six and that's why why you know that peak hour was okay was selected and and he can certainly run between two and three if if we want him to run it okay and but the result is not going to change what's in the report okay thanks um and then I have a bunch of questions and comments on the specific comments and responses um so for comment number two in the current conditions or the existing conditions I had a question about the stop sign and traffic control um a four-way stop that's not controlled by stop signs everything that I've seen in the state manuals and driving instructions show that you slow down at the intersection but you don't have to stop is that correct um are you referring to a four-way stop a four-way intersection yeah like we have in this neighborhood yes that's not controlled by stop lines or stop signs yeah it's my understanding that you're supposed to slow down look for oncoming traffic and proceed through if it's safe it's not required to stop in in the regulation which is the uh mutcd the menu for uniform traffic control which is the Bible of our Traffic Engineers uh at an intersections cars are required to stop if there's a stop sign and the Stop Bar whereas the approaches where there are on any stop sign they are not required to stop so that's pretty clear okay because in the comment and response actually in the response it says despite the absence of a stop sign and a stop line these approaches operate under stop conditions seems to me that's incorrect uh yeah that's that's the observation I think they have uh evaluated so so what we have highlighted is that the inventory that they have collected at the intersection a lot of them uh which is incorrect because if there's no stop sign then cars are not allowed to stop they don't have to stop but there are intersection which I think some of you may have driven especially at local residential streets there are intersections where there's practically no traffic control signs so I think for example you could go to a very rural area with a te intersection mhm but there are no traffic control sign so what is what's the tra traffic supposed to do when for example if they arrive at A T intersection where there's no stop control sign so I think according to law technically you don't have to do anything because there's no traffic control device to tell you what you're supposed to do but Common Sense would tell you that gee there may not be a stop sign I should probably slow down and do a rolling stop not a complete stop but a rolling stop and see if there's any cars in approaching and then you enter the intersection so my point is is that current residents probably know how to approach those stop signs yes new residents coming in likely will not yes yes so so we would we would suggest that to um eliminate any confusion you know at an intersection uh where there are no uh um traffic control uh we we would look into it to make sure that it it is um safe for the in cars to approach the intersection okay comment number six um on the I believe it's the future conditions yes so the comment is that it's not wide enough for a large truck and a passenger vehicle to pass one another and the response talks about the probability of two large vehicles approaching each other essentially trucks being low it does not address a passenger vehicle and a Truck which is more likely in that neighborhood we we yeah we we would not get into the probability because no no one really knows and I think as I stated the roadway it's substandard and I think it it needs to be upgraded for safety yeah and we've seen videos in uh photos that it's actually impossible in some of those areas to put two cars together yeah we wouldn't yeah we wouldn't get into that okay um recommendation number six oh actually before we get there um the comment seven sure uh related to tire tracks on the northwest corner of hildr and Plum um the response is that it's not propos it's not due to the proposed development but would it be more likely to happen during construction of that development because of the r turning radius and the increased number of trucks during construction well we we think it's more than that uh and that's why I think in my comments uh you know the project is is pretty much you know the frontage is very close to this intersection and so I think we have uh mentioned in our comments that we want to make sure that you know the frontage of the uh proposed development of held rate should be you know improved and that's bringing up to standard and and and all that so so I think the tire tracks that we have mentioned at the in sections just indicate that you know that intersection it's a substandard you know because it's part of hildr you know the the roadway is very narrow okay um and then comment [Music] number oh you already covered that one with the speed um so one of the questions I was going to have for you is if you do Implement a one way um Direction then you would likely be increasing the speed which would have potential KnockOn safety implications for the neighborhood and pedestrians that that is correct okay all right I think that's all I've got for now okay anyone else I just have a question for um Paul going back to our responsibility and I think it was 80 General law about safety like what we're 81 right like 81m 81m yep right so I'm still I mean again like I have the 17t street and to me you know you can't change the past right and I know what it's like when you have to every time you pull up a stra you know get out of your driveway you wait to see if anybody's coming down and then you know when they pull into their driveway then you go I mean that's the game you play on these older streets knowing that the street is hildor is smaller than what I'm dealing with to me it's you know what's whatever's grandfathered in the neighborhood is grandfathered we can't do anything about it but I at this point can't like I'm a no on the subdivision and I'm a hard no and like to me it's about safety I know like you know he's saying that we have to upgrade hildr it's not standard size adding six duplexes to me to this is not an acceptable answer so based off of what what we can what we've heard and what the LW says can we can I say that can I be a no and even if I'm I can't say it I'm still saying it they can sue me I agree with Anita um I also have the same concerns and it's going to be very tough at this point to budge what I think so we have had this discussion previously and I mentioned that generaliz chapter 41 section 81m discusses roadways having sufficient width grade in construction um there is cas law that allows a planning board to consider the adequacy of off-site roadways pursuant to that standard under Section 81m but it does require that you have a provision in your rules and regulations that's reasonably definite that would put a developer on notice that they're going to be potentially be required to either upgrade um or that they would be denied because of an ability to upgrade so that there is not solely by the way not solely denied on that you know what I mean sure um but but the point is the question is whether or not there is a provision of your subdivision rules or regulations that is sufficiently uh defined so section 202-10 action by planning board um one of the the basis is for your decision is you need to make a determination that the development at this location does not entail unwarranted Hazard to safety health and convenience of future residents of the development or of others because of possible natural disasters traffic Hazard or other environmental degradation that was really the only provision in your rules and regulations that that I reviewed that I think is arguably sufficient and reasonably definite to put an applicant on notice um there is a a separate um provision under 202-10 that you have to make you know a determination whether it's consistent with the purposes of the subdivision control law um so the the main case on this is northlanders Corporation versus Falmouth planning board and in that case the Falmouth planning board had a local regulation that basically verbatim adopted the um reasonable with grade in in construction language from section 81m um as JC in reviewing that decision you know cited approvingly that that provision was was present it was U reasonably definite and put a developer on notice as to what standards they were going to be subjected to I'd be happier if your regulations had a similar statement if we're going to try to rely upon section 81m um but I think that there is at least a valid basis for relying upon the statement that is in your regulations as part of your explanation can you talk more about 2026 e ways in existence how does how does that well so that that has to do with um determinations as to whether or not a particular plan um shows a subdivision or whether it's approvable as uh an approval not required uh endorsement and yeah so subsection e subsection 3 is roadway constructed at least 18 ft wide with at least 8 in of gravel and with adequate Provisions for drainage um one thing I would note is I think that that does in a way set a a minimum standard so that if a board is looking at a development in making a determination that there is insufficient width grade and uh construction that if it can be brought up to this standard then that should be sufficient for the board because this would allow you to approve it as an anr um so I I don't think that you can require a off-site roadway to be improved beyond that standard so Paul then the question becomes how does the fact that that part of the street is accepted or not accepted factor into this so the northlander northlander case had to do with inadequacy of a public way so it it's not really a determinating determinative factor um even if it's a public way if it's not St it's not sufficient to serve the use and and I can go to the language in section 81m um the powers of a planning board and a board of appeal under the subdivision control law shall control law shall be exercised with due regard for the provision of adequate access to all of the Lots in a subdivision by ways that will be safe and convenient for travel for lessening congestion in such ways and in the adjacent public ways for reducing danger to life and limb in the operation of Motor Vehicles securing safety in the case of fire flood panic and other emergencies for ensuring compliance with the applicable zoning ordinance or bylaws securing adequate provision for water sewer drainage underground Utility Services fire police and other similar Municipal equipment and Street lighting and other requirements we are necessary in a subdivision and for coordinating the ways in a subdivision with each other and with the public ways in the city of town in which it is located in with the ways and neighboring subdivisions a very long sentence yes a thought on that one um it was a pretty long sentence and I'm not sure I remember the beginning of it anymore I don't even but uh is there it essentially it does provide ability to take into consideration the sufficiency of adjacent public does it also I mean I'm wondering how this would set up if a town decided that the easiest way to keep things from happening was to keep the roads inadequate at what point if any uh would uh there be an argument that look you know the town's just doing this is a back backd door way to avoid zoning why don't they just fix the road um has that kind of argument ever been made and are we at any risk of seeing that kind of argument how are they going to fix the road if it's only like they right away is 30 ft yeah but that would be detrimental to the neighborhood well yeah it would make a mess of the neighborhood I totally agree that's the rub that's the rub it's a it's a dead end in my mind in that particular case the town's got the rights under chapter 40b yeah there's probably instances where a town could be required to upgrade a road upgrade the roadway are this is not chapter 40b though okay but under what you just uh read it referred to it a public way yeah yes and I thought there was some um indication from DPW that a portion of hildr was not an accepted public way I think it's stuff at the end but it's it's simpler it's the full thing public what do you mean it's simpler in terms of whether or not that the board can require it to be upgraded if it's a private way the answer the answer is yes unilaterally the the planning board has that Authority well so the analysis would be the same in terms of whether it's public or private here because it's offsite right so it's it's an adjacent either public or private way in this case a little bit of both um I I I'm not sure whether the town would have the authority to require it to be upgraded if it's outside of the control of the applicant um if the applicant didn't have any rights yeah to upgrade the the way but where there is a right an easement right to pass and repass which certainly is being claimed as part of this application there's also a right to to upgrade and and to ensure that there both of our um traffic experts are in agreement that it is not a safe roadway as of right now at least it's not substandard substandard in your opinion and is the other guy here are you yeah for for the applicant yes yeah yeah yeah so you guys are in agreement of the the condition of the road right now I think that in um Scott can you just go go to the mic please Scott Thorton with Vanessa Associates uh I think that in you know the way that the road is used and the volume that's on on the road and what is projected to be added by this development the the the road the points of uh constriction that the road presents as Mr Ho mentioned it does have a traffic caling effect so I think that you know there's there are some points where traffic has to slow and can and that has an effect of of reducing speeds and that's that's applicable and that's that's adequate for access on your number was 11 yours was 33 or 35 11 trip trips per day added from the new development yeah so so you were at 11 you were at 33 if I remember correct so so the study the study is at 9 in the morning for 12 units 9 or sorry and 15 tripling the trips is what we're thinking it's the number of new trips added to the roadway system is between 9 and 15 depending on the time of the day in the morning it's 9 in the evening you in agreement on that though yes no no no it's it's that's report it's eight oh I mean well eight nine right but so it's so it's 8 and then it's 8 in the morning and and 15 total yes and then refering but it's not it's not nine okay so okay I just just because you're drawing the point so so as far but then some of that traffic goes on hildr some of it goes on to Plum I'm still on no yeah so just just so just so I'm I'm clear on this the even though it's a private way the statute allows the board uh to require it to be upgraded with the developer having certain legal rights um to upgrade it the town has no role in upgrading it the statute when read in conjunction with the planning board subdivision rules and regulations so at whose cost the town or the applicant the applicants okay 180,000 but legally the town the town would have no right um to go in and do the work on the private portion correct absolutely not correct and to what extent would the developer have to get any um permissions or approvals Beyond whatever the planning board was considering they would have to go through DPW for what purpose if they're going to expand the roadway within the public portion but if it's within the private portion what what other than the planning board I guess they need the approval of the definitive subdivision what about the the on the road or that would require a title search I I can't answer that question without a so can we talk about what the private portion is it's the entire length of Hildreth from from Bill RKA to Plum correct according to DPW this image reflects what they believe is the unaccepted portion did you but did you have information that you wanted to not not this one okay so that would be the entire it's stretch of road that would I think what I think what your peerreview consultant was suggesting as a at a minimum was that they should be required upgrade the portion along their Frontage at a minimum is that what you were saying yes it was so that that and again that's based upon industry standard methodology the board as council is indicating may have the ability or does have the ability to look beyond the frontage of the pro of the subject site and I think that's where the main problem is is beyond the frontage right so fixing only the frontage is kind of pointless MH it would have to be that entire stretchh because that's where the traffic is going to go in either direction we I think the developer I think in a common provided an estimate no that was just for a sidewalk I thought make the sidewalk you have to expand the road in here it says it's $180,000 this is what I'm reading I don't know um I I didn't know to what extent that what that included widening the road in a sidewalk but I think the question is if if it were to comply with the subdivision minimum standards so it's that that comment is sidewalk on the east side of hildr between the project and b r Road that's not the entire width of the road and it's not addressing the entire problem yeah if I if I could that's you're right that's adding a sidewalk on the edge of the road and because there are because it's a safe road right now there's there's numerous features that are there with with stone walls and trees and uh other impediments those would have to get rebalanced and removed as the case I'm sorry do you usually put a sidewalk on a road that can't handle normal traffic we're just responding to a request so is it done I don't know I'm just asking uh I I I haven't come across that you can't fit the vehicles to begin with on the road way you're going to fit a sidewalk there also well so the sidewalk would be on the edge on the on the outside edge of the road and keep the road the same way with the same Hazard sitting right next to someone trying to walk can can I just add one thing so if this estimate at 180,000 is for just the sidewalk on one side of the road not widening the road that means that if we require widening the entire Road from that entire stretch and adding the sidewalk that would be well over 180,000 and the applicant has already said that in that comment that the 180,000 is prohibited expensive for one project to Bear then I cannot see this happening if if it's too expensive to just do the sidewalk then it's obviously too expensive to do the entire stretch of road and disrupt the neighborhood to boot yeah well I'm I'm a bit confused here because I heard earlier tonight 30 foot right away then I hear private way which one is it has anybody title search this stuff do we is somebody GNA title do we know who owns what that doesn't make sense all we know is that that portion of Hilder has not been accepted it has not been accepted okay but it could still have a right of way on it provided the plan it it wouldn't be going to the town if it hasn't been accepted okay so that that would be a right of way which which which would Paul was suggesting they the properties on the side but would not burden the town correct okay which means that the only way to get anything built there would be to go get the individual owners well if there's already an easement and it's or operate M that you have way then there there's who does the eement run to Who who holds the easement we need to do the title research to figure that out we got to figure this out but that likely hasn't been done because the the applicant and others are waiting for the board to give some indication some direction if if the title search was done would that assist the board in furthering conversation if the title of search were done the applicant would still have to pay for the work and they've already said 180,000 for the sidewalk is too expensive right so I think that's probably why the title search hasn't been done in any any additional detail so if they're not willing to do the sidewalk they obviously aren't willing to do this whole the whole street in which case I wouldn't approve this because it's obviously not wide enough it's obvious when you walk down the road yeah so do we want to do a straw po Joe why waste any the applicant like us to do a straw pull well three of you have already announced your attentions the straw poll is kind of meaningless at this point okay may want to rethink what what you want to put there and come back with something no I think you should be rethinking making an opinion known before the hearing's been closed and all the information presented so I think we just heard that three of you have predetermined the outcome and that three of you we're stuck at one issue he needs to get up to the yeah get up can't speak from the eyes it's an issue we can't get by I think three of you have made your opinions known unequivocally I'm can you identify yourself please Doug howler for the applicant uh with offices at 10 North Road so I have significant concerns that three of you have already probably disqualified yourselves from voting so I want to thank you for doing that how is that because we're trying to save the client time you asked me a question I'd like to reply without being interrupted can we do that yeah we can thank you you're making a statement you're voting against the hearing hasn't even been concluded all the information isn't before you so thank you for disqualifying yourselves and now we have to decide whether or not we want to go forward or not under what circumstances that's for my client to have to sit down with his professionals to review there I I find it hard to believe that a road that's been in existence where the fire department has not made any concerns known about the safety in their report their concerns nor the police but three members of a board who have no particular training in fire safety or vehic vehicular traffic or patterns have come up with the conclusions and make an opinion that's up to you folks I know you're you're appoint you you get elected to this board that's great but you haven't heard all the evidence can I respond I I all I'm saying for myself I'm at an impass on the project I'm just trying to give you due notice to look around the board and come up with a different plan that's all I'm saying no it's not what you said I'll let the record speak for itself thank you and I would like to respond to that too I have actually not said how I'm going to vote I said if the applicant is not willing to pay for $180,000 sidewalk it's unlikely that the applicant would be willing to pay to redo the entire street it's also the traffic um beta reviewers opin that the street needs to be improved in order for this project to happen so I'm taking the traffic expert opinion I did not come up with that opinion and I'm using the comment that was provided in the traffic response that the $180,000 is prohibitively expensive for one project to bear so if the applicant is not willing to do 180,000 and if the applicant is unlikely to do more then I don't see how I could vote for this I never said I was wasn't going to vote for this there were a lot of ifs in that statement okay I'll let the record speak for itself that's fine that's fine we haven't got the environmental yet I watched concom last night okay you know what we this is not a fruitful conversation yes it's unfortunate I'd ra I'd rather hear everybody's exact position of what they need to get to a yes vote lay out their concerns one by one put them in writing and then we can address them or not I think there is a legal issue here about how the road has been used how far that acceptance does or does not go yeah true I've already found one case um and I have the sites with me and I'll sh share them with Paul later but it already says that we're a Street which is unimproved hasn't been approved by the town has not been accepted yet the road is used constantly by the people the amount of traffic that's being added by the proposed project is fairly minimal which this is according to that Court's standard and I'll go through you know the the amount of um it even got into the point of 18 wheel trucks coming and going at one time the the decision was pretty very very simp similar to what we're talking about here and the court said it's a hard argument to uh have a planning board say no to when it's being used like that all the time in fact one could argue that by the building out the new road element for this subdivision um no this the culdesac you're creating a way for other vehicles to come by more safely because a car can pull over and allow a car to come back there's also been testimony tonight by both not only that issue but also about you want to keep it going at a slow pace so therefore don't touch the road at all and let the client use the road just like every other person in chelsford uses the road reasonably safely and in consistent with the use that exists today that's supported by your fire department and your police department and If you deny it on that basis then we go to the appeal and that's what we do for a living okay okay thank you thankk you Doug all right comment um I think we might be done with the traffic for tonight yeah same enough and maybe we should um close the public hearing or continue the public hearing the applicant left that that they were going to reconvene with their client and report back to the board so maybe continuing it at this point makes sense nothing's nothing's resolved wait you want to open up to public comment anybody yeah sorry we got to take public comment public comment there's a lot of people here yeah but before then I just want to point out the board at the end of this process has to provide a detailed sure written decision with all of its reasons why it's denying or approving the project of course um and so my advice would be to continue hearing with the process get all of the information so that you can at the end of the process render that decision so what you're referring to is traffic is one one element of a review and right right would uh what would would we need to consider anything especially if what we were going to do in the end was not to deny but to approve but condition it for example the number of units to say has two three something like that I don't see what you would use as the basis for that rather than imposing a condition that would require them to widen the roadway to the minimum standards in your rules and regulations okay okay all right um so I guess we'll open up to public input we have gotten a number of emails and photos and um you want to focus on traffic tonight or yeah I I would like to keep it to traffic I'm definitely going to keep it to traffic um my name is Nate mon I live at um for Hilder Street I live at the top um there was a lot to digest so I got my notes here um in the traffic study it said did and when I say traffic study I don't really mean traffic study it should be safety study that should be it traffic there's really no traffic on our street it's safety and that's what's the number one thing on this how fast did you find them going was 15 18 how many how fast were they go when you rate out them this morning I walked three kids at 8:57 to Center School my daughter and my twins behind me three cars two leaving one coming no sidewalk where do I go I huddle around I approached the side I approached the crosswalk there's cars everywhere how is that going to be uh measured and like he said the crosswalk is important and when you said hypothetically it wasn't hypothetically just this morning three of us walking there's no lights on Hildreth it doesn't take into the count we just went to Blingo night 6:30 at night in February five of us we walked to the top there's no lights what happens when my kids go down the street and have to play they're just going to walk in the dark and why is it only acceptable to have a sidewalk that ends at the development what happens when they want to go down it's just a free-for-all and when the gentleman says that the road's not going to change you're adding cars you're adding cars how is that not changing the road and the 30 the 30 to 40 right away um this past summer Chels DPW cut down two trees in front of 95 bker Road they cut them down they measured it I was there there's a Stak in the ground across my street we took a tape it's 24 ft from where he measured it it's 24 ft goes 4T in my y the road is 13.9 in and it's about 4 to 5 ft behind the tree so 30 to 40 ft that's basically taking my house and putting it out sideways and sticking out on hrth and saying that's the the road the uh Town's um right of way and when the sidewalk is going to be implemented and the Street's not touch touched I live in number four we get groceries my wife parks on the driveway you know why not to mess up my grass but to let other people pass and I don't get a mirror that's clipped and then we move it if there's a if there's a sidewalk there how do they enter do we just go right over the sidewalk how do we do that have you been down 95 Bel Road with that dips in fence how are they going to build a sidewalk are they going to fill it in where his this much of his fence is showing that doesn't make a lot of sense I mean I texted the other own I said you might want to check into this um couple um leaving approaching my yard approaching my driveway I'm at an in pass what do they do they pull over in front of number six in front of the McMasters they pull all the way over and I stand there I got to put my blinker on to go left you know that that's what we deal with as residents there if you want to see a true measure of the cars that are on the road stop by on Sunday my daughter's turning 6 we're going to have a birthday party there's going to be cars on the road imagine this cars on the road plus a Development coming and going it's on a Sunday everyone's home there's no traffic study on on the Sunday coming and going it's going to be nice out people walking I agree I with you guys I definitely see your struggle but think about the neighbors I know you have a legal issue um and I would respect that you guys think carefully before proving this and Deandra I watched you on the online and I believe you quoted something about negatively uh adversely affecting the neighborhood this is it in a nutshell thank you Kevin chalii 11 hildr um I was actually home the day the gentleman came and was doing the uh review of the roads and he basically just drove up and down the road got out of this car a couple times and and looked that that's what he did he couldn't uh then I watched him leave he couldn't exit hildre street because someone was entering hild Street he had to back his car down I mean that doesn't show up in the report they don't talk about that because that would be negative but I physically watched it I was walking my dogs and you know that's what I saw uh you know I'm constantly losing more and more furniture of my property you know they talk about the ruts but that's where people go when they need to move over so I'm losing a lot lot more of my property the front you know I'm debating whether to put big Stones there but I don't want to do that because someone's going to get a flat tire I'm right at that corner where they talked where they had the sight line problems people run over that all the time I have four big boulders there uh two weeks ago a uh truck came by right over the boulders put the boulder in the middle of the road I had to call the CHC of police department because I couldn't move the boulder back I figured they call DPW uh but the officer was kind enough to help me we rolled it back into its spot um it's uh you know if this development does get approved it's going to definitely devastate our neighborhood but thank you good evening uh Bob G here at 22 Hilder Street um I don't know if you can pull up that map that showed just top top half of Hilder Street with the gray yep one more time I think it's this one that's one above that one above it there we go thank you apparently you can tell we've been going over this thing quite a bit yeah all right I'm going to talk about something else but one of the things if you look at that map look that area they say we should widen the road to how close is that to some of those houses going walk down your front step on of the road take care of all the trees that are there now take care of the walls that are there now Nate would need an elevator get in out of his driveway cuz his driveway slopes off the road right now that's one issue but think about that my questions is my comment is about one of the rec recommendations make it a one Race Street because that way you won't have the congestion okay let's see at Hil Street there is one one firey in Hilter street by the way that's all the way down the End of the Street in front of my house I like it there but it's all the way down the End of the Street there is one fire on hild Street there are no overhead lights or street lights on Hill Street from beginning to end I've been there for 12 years go up and down the street almost every night I haven't found one yet okay now the street current consist of 15 addresses of those 15 addresses seven are south of Plum Street and we're talking about and the current proposal is adding 12 units to the 15 only 11 inition of the 15 because one would be removed removed if you make it a oneway street going out going from south to North I have no problem I can leave my house but I can't get back how do I get back what it's going on per down a plum NOP it's one way going back out again I can do that all day I can't get home it's one way coming from the rle road South down the end of the street I can go to my house I can't leave how about emergency vehicles this supposed to fall traffic rules I'm have an ambulance come to my house and pick me up and bring me to the hospital have i m okay more than once they can either come to my house and get me or have to walk up the street apparently or come get me and I'll leave there is a paper road coming from Winter Street over to hild Street I got a four-wheel drive truck I can drive over the street over the over the P the uh surface there's a brook there that's a paper Bridge that's a problem I can't forge a paper Bridge now that's seven out of the 15 residents I'm I'm not talking like one person the outlier seven out of 15 and look at your Maps look at your addresses and that's what's there right now now when I move here 12 years old I'd like the street nice and narrow like the trees over the street make it s like a nice Country Road but it has its limitations ice parking is one of them but the other problem is make well Mak it a oneway street what are you doing with it the other P make it a wider street from P up to bka what do these people do what happens to their property not some a value I don't want to be a nimi but you love that that gray block that gray rectangle look at how close they are to some of the houses what happened their Frontage they have no answer for that or if they do I'd like to hear it thank you for your time good even good evening Paul wood uh 16 Hiller Street just want to thank you for being very patient um I know you got my video it was a neighborhood video not going to play it tonight or anything like that I just want to make sure I want it's more question that video was that on the permanent record with the town yeah absolutely okay and all those pictures I sent you and my emails I just want to make sure they were in the package and the only other thing they've been forwarded to the board okay and I just want to make sure they're in there for if they ever need it legally or something um and the only other frustrating point is neither of the peer studies I think got out and measured the road of 13 ft 9 in and it's and you I had those talking points at s the 700 ft 2third of it you cannot pass two cars um it just it's impassible regardless of trucks or whatever they call them so just it's just thought thank you for your time thank you okay um oh just sorry real quick one comment that Bob didn't make about oneway roads if you make it one exiting onto Bill r road at going up hildr you're dumping into the schoolhouse if you make it one way the other way you're dumping into the fire station in town hall neither of which can handle more traffic than they already have thank you thank you okay I will take a motion to continue the public hearing move to continue to the next meeting the 27th that when we're going anywhere else to send it it's a busy agenda but well the way the app has left it is they're going to convene with their client and report back so that shouldn't I mean that in of itself shouldn't take too long if it takes a continuance it takes a continu we're going to have to manage 30 the 27th have to manage the time limits on each agenda item I'll second that in favor I okay last but not least you need me for anything else no hope not thank you you really want to stay I'd like to go home and each dinner you'll be back for next week next meeting new public hearing for 41 Cent I put the 27th on my account yeah good idea Oddfellows project LLC requesting a special permit for reduction parking to a previously approve oh you know what I'm going to recuse cuz I'm in a butter sorry oh okay so who wants to take this I guess I got it Mike it's all you okay all right let me figure out where we're at find my space in the uh agenda looking at the right ah okay sorry about that I can read the letters if you want uh just read the uh the legal ad off the um off the agenda yeah okay very good okay new public hearing for 41 Central Square Oddfellows project LLC request for a special permit for a reduction in parking to the previously approved special permit this project requires a special permit for Section 19518 off street parking and loading for an additional reduction of 12 parking spaces to accommodate an additional 30 seats within a restaurant the site is located in the center Village district and is shown as partial 1D map 8 4 block 334 lot 11 and consists of approximately 30,40 ft and you are um hum bayani from um Aros project LLC okay um if I may ask the board I noticed that in the last hearing that you had you had some comments and questions about the project and it's going and I'd like to read a statement and that would partially answer that and partially answer the well more than appropriate go ahead I hope it's not too too long um I no I won't be as long as the previous ones uh thank you so um we started the journey to acquire and rebuild the art fellows Hall in August of 2019 on July of 2021 um the board granted us the approval for the project and immediately after the closing of the on the property uh we started Demolition and the interior and exterior of the building uh um soon after the because of the co pandemic uh we faced many challenges with have ability of the subcontractors supply of materials and S prices and uh everything from Lumber to appliances our project uh basically was completed uh in December of 2022 um but due to a 9 months delay on a th000 amp electric switch gear we could not move forward everything came came to complete Hal we finally got our equipment delivered in August of 2023 soon after we were able to get our coo uh on early September of 2023 see about two weeks time um and four months before we had offered the Fishbones employees uh at a discounted rate uh to rent these apartments and unfortunately they were not interested uh nor the timing was uh right for them and um once that didn't go through uh we offered it to um you know uh public market and we're able to rent all the units ranging from $1,900 to $2,400 a month and the last unit was rented on January of 2024 and part of securing the financing for the restaurant project is the lenders look for a rent roll generated by income property that the income property that based on those margins they can determine the financing for the restaurant phase of our project so we needed those units to be rented in order to show Revenue to move forward to the second phase and at that point we had enjoyed working with the um Architects that we have because they specialize in historic remodels um unfortunately it came time for Designing the restaurant um um we both both parties decided that we should explore other options and they were not the right uh firm to do the design for the restaurant so at that point we started interviewing three well-known architects in the area and um finally chose to work with Souza design Architects and they've done many upscale restaurants in Massachusetts and all over the country they have multiple Awards they've been on um g TV Boston Globe homeand property Boston magazine so on and so forth and we hired that company Unfortunately they couldn't start working on our project until February which they already have and we submitted the plan of their first uh design that they've done for us and uh we are now before you asking for additional relief on parking requirements because we realized that based on the plans that we got from them that we have a capacity of adding 30 seats to the restaurant and um part of that uh is the parking relief and the other part is uh paying for the sewer capacity that we're going to be using for the restaurant and we've already been talking to DPW and you know adding the seeds is extremely crucial to the success of our restaurant as much as so we are willing to pay $4,000 extra for the switch capacity uh fee that they require and uh based on a three-year forecast that we've done for our lender uh these seats represent 14% increase in our Revenue uh and that would really help us with the financing for the restaurant project yeah so we are now on track um you know with the design and plans and working um with various subcontractors to get them involved with the project as we make progress with the um Architects designs and engineer and uh that's where we are at this point so uh thank you for taking the time uh consider our application and one last request is um please feel free to contact us directly going forward when there are rumors and uh uh any other talk in the town about the um you know where B of the project and the restaurant um we heard also the rumors of us bankrupt a year ago we don't intend to do the restaurant and so on and so forth but there was a sort of a no way for us to contact the board directly um and everybody hears different rumors so we just want to make sure if you have questions going forward please contact us directly we'll be happy to answer any questions that you may have okay thank you thank you okay now so I I understand you're asking for 12 addition additional relief yeah oh your uh spaces of relief yes additional to the 11 that we the special permit had already correct correct okay so this is yeah I'm sorry the original one was based on 100 seats yeah so the 30 extra seats would require additional relief okay so no increase in spaces no increase in spaces it's a it's a number changing on a a change from 31% % relief to 42% It's pretty high on the other hand we can go up to 50 I believe yeah I think we I think we have the range to do it right Evan you do via special permit okay and that's what what we're looking at yeah just just a question on that M Mr chairman um so do we does anyone either the presenter or maybe Evan have numbers like um how this would impact like um the how this would lower the amount of spaces ailable for public parking because one of my concerns is if about a couple years ago we spent the town purchased a parking lot there for 575,000 so I just want to make sure that if this relief is granted there's still plenty of parking for the public I presume I presume this isn't going to change what the town now owns is that correct correct nothing on the ground changes nothing under the ground changes bot lines don't change but the available parking in town will yeah that CU I assume because those 30 people or 15 couples will park in the public lot that's a lot so answer your question John there's no there's been no parking utilization study since the town's acquired the parking lot the reason I asked is just having visited this property um to go to another business in the center recently I think over the years when that property's been kind of underutilized everyone sort of got used to parking just about anywhere now when you go in as you would expect you see signs saying up front um you know certain spaces a reserve for residents certain spots are reserved for Santander certain spots are reserved for the FIS house and I understand that but I just want to make sure that you know we're not going down a road that we'll regret well okay and what about valet are you have you ever thought about offering a valet service um originally when we were part of the much larger project as you recall uh there 32 units were going to go in with you know the parcel that the town purchased and all that um we really didn't have the number of parking spaces at that point because they're going to be subdivided in a different manner at that point so we did explore with the um Church nearby and other establishments that had parking um we did not get a positive response from from them uh in terms of you know working together uh in any way we can would you be willing if there is an issue with parking to revisit the valet work something out well we if in real time we see there's an issue with the parking yeah I mean we could definitely explore any options uh that might be out there um however we do have um for security purposes we have ring cameras all over the parking lot um and we monitor it all the time okay um there's never been a time that all the parking spaces that the town owns in the back has been occupied yeah that's been my observation yeah because there isn't a restaurant there isn't 13 restaurant what I'm saying is in real time if this becomes like a problem yes is that something you're willing to revisit uh I would uh I am not the restaurant operator but my partner will be you probably won't see me until if there's another project in town but uh let him Alie answers that hi my name is Ali Z um hotells project um I think absolutely that's a good option to have especially for the customers um I think uh how many spaces do we have now I don't 47 a lot of people would probably use that service if they could pull right up and then and not worry about their car you know what I mean absolutely but we also have 47 spaces available so like special event whatever whatever you know in real time if we saw correct a problem I I wasn't part of the original project and and approval so I've got a few questions in general about the the project yes do you mind go ahead okay um the on this specific uh proposal you mentioned in the narrative that it's going to be the $40,000 fee for the increase in SE almost 40,000 yeah um but the DPW letter that was dated after that proposal says that the sewer discussions are still in progress and needs to be reviewed yeah the reasoning being that we've been asking the DPW regarding the number of seats that we've been requesting part of that would be outdoor seating and other setings only applicable if you have wonderful summer maybe 2 and a half months um we were wondering if that would still be considered as part of the overall seating and they finally got back to us and Evan had to step into to clarify everything that they would no matter how long the seats are in question so that was the only question that was going back and forth and we were in clear on so we would still need a clean letter from DPW on this on the on the on the sewer sewer if you'd like yeah the because their letter that's recent is saying that there's still outstanding questions and it still needs to be that's that's fine um I think it's been resolved but I think what's what's likely partner into the planning board's discussion is it it appears as though the applicant is proposing the 30 additional seats only to be used seasonally yeah the town's response to the applicant was for purposes of Board of Health uh uh uh Board of Selectmen permitting parking calculations and sore calculations we don't care right okay if if if your AR if their architect can can can meet um inside Fire and Building Code safety requirements they can put all all 130 inside or they could move you know 50 50 outside and they can manage their seating however they want okay maybe it's relevant to the planning board as part of this special permit reduction that they what they are truly proposing is 30 seasonal seats okay all right and the other another question I have is you talked about the timeline why I would have assumed that the design of the restaurant would have been done when you were proposing it initially was the design not done then and it was only done in phase two it was done in a very plinary manner it was basically something for the board to see that this restaurant the kitchen will be in a hypothetical situation position and all um we didn't even have a 100% clear concept when we applied for the building permit uh we just knew it was going to be a restaurant and the number of seats was based on number of parkings available to us originally um are again our architect that we enjoyed working with for the historic side of the project great I will use them again anytime but they really did not know how to design a restaurant and uh the soua um Architects and design they specialize in restaurants I can name at least 15 or 20 high-end restaurants they've done in Seaport Boston and all over the place and um they specialize in doing restaurants and we just did not want to put you know plywood on the wall and put some seeds and call it a restaurant so the intention of course unfortunately for my pocketbook is that he wants a very high-end restaurant so um so he wants to design the best yes he can as he's done at Fishbones to do it at the new place okay to be a destination place so we did not work on that originally because we didn't have the right team the planning board decision um it was presented and approved as a phased yes phase construction project residential first restaurant phase two okay yeah thank you Evan I yeah part of the fact that we couldn't move to this second part of the phase two was because we didn't have the city of occupancy for phase one until September and then we had to finish renting all the units and have some rent roll coming in in order to move forward with the rest of the project okay I've got some questions on the spaces um it looks like and it was tough to see on this I guess it was a subdivision plan there are two handicap spaces now right yes we built two handicap spaces where you pointed at yeah and with the increased capacity I think I saw that it would be a third required I saw a letter from I think the police department that said that um we have no problem if that's what's required we will have our um Architects speak to the appropriate people in town and figure that out and if third one is required we'll just add the third one to it okay can I make a com sure um I believe um office support what he wrote was I think it was under impression that we were asking for 12 extra sitting and that would bring us to over 50 parking spaces 50 parking spaces so over 50 we're going to require three but under 50 we require only two but as hman said if he Town wants a third handicap space that's not a problem with us okay okay and that kind of brings up another question I had the I counted the seating in the plan that you have and it doesn't seem to match 130 it seems to be less there's eight out side okay I don't think those were all shown were they yeah it should be a breakdown on the top they were okay yeah can you keep this up um so my next question is related to the handicap access for the restaurant if I may yeah okay so um basically these are the closest um Ada parking spaces and there is a um uh vegetation with the Transformer there so uh as the town finished the sidewalk they brought the ramp around they did that over the summer we are going to connect that and break right here as you see coming into a patio you be level the entrance and that would be the handicap accessible okay so you'd have to break through the wall that's there now no no um oh it will be right above so it would level off a stone wall right there yeah at the end is about 7 in and it gets deeper and deeper as you go towards the back of the rock but towards the parking spaces is about 7 or 8 in of the stone wall so it be right above that be flush with that cuz the patio comes all the way up to the bottom of these doors Which is higher than wall right but the ramp wouldn't go over the wall would it yes it would it would die into the that's the expand of the ramp that section would cover the wall going over to the patio I meet the Pao okay yeah are there any design drawings on that I'm sorry are there any design drawings on that on on what on what they're proposing for the handicapped access so what what what he's describing and what's partially shown on this plan um is different than the original approval uh which shouldn't come as a total surprise there may be a need for an additional modification to resolve that level of um change from the original approval to the final design so we're being asked to modify the parking um relief and then we're going to be asked again to make another change potentially potentially the Maj the major change is that this area right here in the original permit was open so that the the The Pedestrian path from the Brier parking lot went up these side uh stairs through the patio and straight out to the to the uh sidewalk so this was open right here okay as they're as they're developing their outdoor patio and trying to further refine Ada accessibility to the restaurant it appears as though some of the design details related to um pedestrians walking from the rear parking lot through the patio and getting out to the Bera Road sidewalk made may change based upon what was originally approved and what ultimately their final design would be I don't know if that rises to the extent where the planning board would want to do a formal modification and it's not clear to me and I think we're hearing tonight that they haven't fully designed that to that level of detail yet so I'm all for Lessons Learned and the fact that we approved a project as a planning board in phases without it completely designed we're now in this situation it was completely designed but things change it wasn't really designed internally no right right the internal space wasn't which isn't which isn't uncomon baileywick which isn't uncommon but it is if it impacts parking and no the parking is our concern what's inside those walls is not yeah the tonight's tonight I think they're they're clearly looking for uh relief relief from parking to add 30 more seats yeah everything else is kind of an inter an interior you know building they could submit a building permit right now if they wanted to right but everything else is impacting the accessibility of these parking spaces what be cuz we're going to improve parking and from what I saw when walking around there there's no way for Ada accessibility so the original plan that the board approved was Ada compant let's assume it wasn't the Building Commissioner who's also the the town's um Ada coordinator is legally obligated under the building code as part of issuing an occupany building an occy permit to cover that so I think it's safe for the board to assume that your original approval reviewed that and approved an ADA Compliant plan but I'm not sure I want to approve parking if the parking is going to end up changing because if if they can't if they find something new in the design that's going to prevent them from putting those handicap spaces there and they're going to have to move them somewhere else may I add um we already met with the DPW regarding the ramp regarding the handicap accessibility and um Katrina Schmid already uh called me yesterday walking the site she was very happy with the results of what we're doing okay and we have communication with them as well um the parking spaces for the Ada are not going to be moved there's no place else to move them it was always part of the design of that door that I pointed out to always be the adxs um from the patio or maybe a deck at the beginning we weren't sure but they ended up being a patio that's always going to be the the only that changed was um where uh Evan mentioned there was going to be a ramp going onto the sidewalk but um once we decided that it would really enhance the look of the building from the street instead of having a ramp going onto the sidewalk there's another ramp coming up on the side it's just sort of a defeats the purpose of having two if you're looking for a clean letter from DPW that means we're continuing unless it's a conditional approval yeah we could approve with condition the other the other option is it sounds like you're looking for um uh clarification on whether um the additional seating capacity is going to trigger an additional handicap spot is that is that well but they've already said that they will add one yeah they said they going to do three you looking for that potentially but if other board members are okay and comfortable with this then I'm fine I just have some no I get what you're saying we're not seeing a plan that's been updated to show what they're talking about right and that's what happened last time and we're here now this adding more relief and if if this were the outside I would I would agree with you but this is inside and it really isn't our but it is because they change the inside and it's the out we're just concerned with all I'm saying I get it but I'm comfortable with moving along yeah and I want to prevent the impact from impacting us again for a second time I don't think we should design their projects for them if we do Grant the parking space relief and we find there's a problem is that something the board can take a look at later or is this or is that is it granted forever while this business exists I mean the problem is how do you how do you uh what's your methodology to determining a problem yeah I mean to to pick up on what Paul was suggesting about the valet I mean what about a thought of having off-site employee parking I'm assuming on a Friday Saturday night you may have at least 15 employees if you can get them if you can maybe it's easier for you to enter into a uh a lease arrangement for employees and not focus on valet there's an empty lot right down the road I know it's on Street the old CVS is just sitting there empty yeah so uh we do um utilize some of the CVS um parking spaces in the back we spoken to the managers there they they've changed managers they weren't really responsive and uh acceptable before but they are now some park there and some Park in the um Municipal parking now in the back but usually we have the employees Park offside anyways because like you said 15 parking SPAC is going to really affect our business I see them walking through the center so I know they're parking somewhere what I'm suggesting is that not only would your employees not park on your 47 spaces on your property but ideally they wouldn't be parking in the municipal lot either correct absolutely yeah we can uh arrange that and just see who um we've we've been working with the church as well and they've been utilizing our spaces on Sunday mornings you think you think you think within the next two to four weeks you may be to get something in writing I probably could work on that that would worth waiting for I think okay um if I may just address the one more time um between the DPW and the Building Commissioner they're going to have the complete say on the handicap ramp and they're going to have to approve it according to ADA rules yeah so that's really I'm not trying to say like it's not pvy for this board it's just like I don't want to like be alarmed that we're going to do something that's not going to be to C cuz they have to be approved by those two parties and which um DPW has already approved our um preliminary print and then everything has to be submitted in hard copy by the architect for that uh whole new design so they will have yeah my concern was not that it wouldn't be to code my concern was that there would be even more changes down the road that might impact another request coming to us for Chang to see us at 10:30 at night every couple of weeks um no we hopefully don't have to come back for any additional changes but never say never but regarding this issue we don't anticipate change in the parking spaces or moving the uh Ada parking spaces and um as Evan said um The Building Commissioner and DPW will have a final say on the design of that ramp anyways to make sure that it's completely all right to code okay uh anybody else have comments otherwise we we've got two ways we can oh yeah uh public yeah public hearing there we go okay thank you uh Joanne stanway I'm at six Lantern Lane but I'm also the chair of the chumford commission on disabilities and um I did hear from Katrina and she let me know that she spoke with you and yes Jose Negron is the Ada coordinator but um and I'm going to try to not repeat that you've already noted but I've been here since 6:30 so I'm going to say something right um so I appreciate that there'll be three spots I want to ensure that at least one of them is Van compliant um that will be critical and also the current pathway that you just said would be adjusted to accommodate that corner that goes up to street level um how do you get in at street level because there's two steps going into the building um the residential part of the building is not accessible and it wasn't approved as accessible uh the side entrance is the one that's going to be accessible for the commercial use at the restaurant and so that um accounts for the um entering the restaurant through the new area that you're proposing the outside area there that's flat and and brings you directly into the restaurant so there's no stairs or anything else that's going to be actual main entrance to the restaurant the front door is more of the look of the building that it is doesn't even count as emergency exit for us because we added additional doors to accommodate the extra seating so that would be mostly for emergency exit the front door at the steps but the two side doors there's going to be additional side door that's going to accommodate the exit this one this one we add in just the third one here as well so there be three doors that would be on a flat surface for Ada exit okay and so do not to belabor the point just from the position of the commission on disabilities I would really like to see a final plan uh before there's any decision by the planning board just so that we're not doing anything over once it's done any questions for me that would be a final plan concerning the uh particularly the Ada issue accessibility parking um including van accessible parking van and the ability to get in and utilize the restaurant I did have actually one other point with the additional seating um you know love Fishbones but it's a little crowded inside uh will are you taking note of U making it easy for wheelchair users to be able to get to the tables um this plan design shows all the seating and we've gone beyond the state code which does not require 88 seting at the bar we going with the national code that does so we even put 88 seats at the bar in addition to other accesses and the pathways and everything is been calculated so that all Ada access is okay so again my position is just I'd appreciate a a firm Plan before any decisions made thanks thank you thanks JRA dear J Conley um I'm speaking as an abutter tonight I really want this restaurant to go in and I want this project to be developed and completed but I do have a couple issues um one is the at the be at the original project which I was recused from because I was also then in a butter um there was a few things um mentioned by the way there was outdoor seating I believe in the original plan so they're not just adding 30 outdoor seats they're adding some indoor some outdoor cuz there was previously outdoor seats um there was also meant to be um a flat Island um at the entrance um into the parking lot beside the restaurant um also there was um you know going to be a ramp and the apartments were going to be affordable um they didn't they weren't asked for any contribution to the pyo nor was were they nor did they build any affordable units in their 8 unit apartment place because they were going to be providing affordable housing to their employees um gr granted we've been told their employees weren't interested in affordable housing opportunities that seems shocking but um I I feel like there's been a lot of um things granted that necessarily haven't followed through the plan if you look at it it's I think it's still the on the window of the building if you stand there and look at the plan and then step over a few steps um and look at what's there it it doesn't you know there wasn't that big Elric whatever it is compressor there in the plan that was where the ramp was going to be and at the current moment there's no way to get from the parking lot to the street without really taking your um life in your hands stepping into oncoming traffic there's certainly no way for a handicapp person to get from the parking lot to the street without putting themselves in danger um and also currently people are using that as a as a cut through to avoid the light and um you know motoring through there so I would like to request that um there be a firm plan and design plan for at least the the egress from the parking The Pedestrian egress from the parking lot to the street from the parking lot to the restaurant from the handicap spots to the street um part of that I I thought part of that handicap parking was Town parking not all restaurant parking so there should be a way to get from the handicapped to the sidewalk um I also think there should be speed bumps traffic calming measures in the parking lot and um um I also would like to have someone look at a firm count so originally they were granted 47 spots I believe which was a I don't know what percent reduction and that was based on needing 14 I believe spaces for the residents and 15 for the employees I don't believe either of those two numbers is eligible for a parking reduction so that's a fixed 29 that they need unless I'm wrong about the employee and I also would have the question if they increased their seating capacity by 30 would they H they they're supposed to be having parking for their employees at Peak time so I don't know if that number would go up from 15 so if that parking amount that they would be requiring for their employees would go up so at this point I'm at either 29 or maybe more if the employee number is not fixed and then they had 40 spots allotted for the that they needed um for the restaurant with the reduction it was actually a reduction I think of 11 um so now they're asking for an additional um they need an additional um I think it's 12 but they don't have anymore so they're asking for an additional reduction by 12 so they've already gotten 11 reduction now they're getting a 12 reduction if they build a van accessible parking spot they're going to lose another spot if they build anything like the like the um pocket park that's been still in limbo land that will pull back some of the parking spaces because it's going to be built at the edge where there's currently parking um so I guess I would like to request that there be current Renditions that there be a really good well-laid out count of the number of parking spots available and the number of parking spots that they're looking to be allocated to their business as to John's point the town bought this lot for the centered businesses to be developed and now we have multiple businesses which is a great thing and I want this business to be there that will also be a great thing but I don't want there to be an inadequacy of spaces for all the other businesses so I would like to request that we have good plans that we have a good count and a of what they need and B of what there is available when you take into account the Ada van accessible spot and the potential pocket park um I think they should have a gentleman's agreement with the Santander that they use their spots after five after banking hours I think they should have a plan kind of laid out in place that they would be willing to have valet on Thursday Friday Saturday um and kind of a a plan for that not just we'll agree to that I find that we don't always execute those smaller details um and and I I don't know I thought there was one more thing but um so speed bumps a good rendition a good parking count oh I think that the the notification went to the abuts I certainly got one but the businesses didn't get the notification the owners of the properties got the notification so I would like to request that we invite the businesses or at least seek input from the businesses in the center who have many of their customers have become accustomed to using those town-owned spots and see if they have thoughts on whether this is going to adversely impact them and you know maybe 30 is too many I don't know I'm not going to propose to make such a recommend Commendation but I don't think all the all the details are ironed out in this yet thank you can I ask sure quick question I swear um Josh warhurst 232 Princeton Street um the lot in front of the library right where there's the CVS and all the other buildings there is that lot uh considered when we consider parking in this area I know personally when I go to Fishbones I'll park in that lot yeah a lot of people do but it's private it's okay so is it just for the parking like for those businesses technically yes becomes a problem few Mar spots until it becomes a problem is the right answer yeah okay I it's it's one of those places where there's always a lot of empty spots so I just okay but should I not use it in the Future No it's it's it's between you and whoever owns the parking lot they're not complaining yeah we're not complaining thank you yeah just couple of quick responses to uh M Conley's comments um uh we did get a waiver for affordable housing when we applied for this project and we were granted that um we came to the hearings and meetings and we mentioned that we will offer at the affordable rate to our employees at Fishbones you cannot put a gun to someone's head to rent a unit from you so they did not um then we had no choice but to go to market and we got Market bre and if people in town prefer to see the dilapidated building that was sitting there empty for 16 years or $3.4 million later we still haven't open up a restaurant that's for the town to debate but as far as our obligation to the commitment we made to the town I think we followed through everything that we said we have and continuing to do so the handicap spaces that are currently there are part of our property we buil them we put them there and if we required to put more than two uh we accommodate them as well the um sidewalk curb cut that was completing the survey for years after us requesting from DPW for over a year and a half they finally came out and they they addressed that part but as soon as it came inside the parking lot they left it alone for us to finish since the residential phase of the project is not accessible there is no one who lives at the building that can access the residential and needs the Ada ramp at this point and that will be completed as we said with the part of phase two of the project at the restaurant which will require Ada access and I don't know if I missed any other points I'm not sure about the 2930 spaces that was mentioned we near merely asking for the reduction of 11 or 12 I'm not quite clear at this point but that's what we're looking for okay thank you all right uh anybody else have comments and then we need to think about what what we want for a Next Step here um it sounds to me as if there's a lot of thought that uh we could use a a uh definitive layout of the parking and access piece of this I think that's even I don't think we should concern ourselves with what's inside the walls but we certainly can look at the the access um anything else I would like to see that exterior final design plan I think that's what Mike was referring to that's what we were talking about just this is a the one that we have in front of us today is a preliminary subdivision plan yeah no it's from 19 21 yeah so I would like to make sure that the the seating plan is appears to be where they're heading with the modifications to the um pedestrian access yeah if could you please go back to the side plan one second please if I could just site plan yes please the original s y if I may just point out this ramp is going to be placed here versus here this is going to be close so that's the only difference everything else stays the same except of going around and coming in we're just going to bring the customers in this way and this will be closed off that's the only change that's going to happen in this everything else remains exactly the same I want to see an official site plan I I understand sure is that something you guys can get for us we definitely going to put a call into the architect tomorrow and have them draw that pencil and uh with the three handicap spes they need to they need to verify whether they're required yes three or two they also need to verify whether they need a van and that determination will be made solely by The Building Commissioner right if if they're not if they're not legally required to put in a van but they volunteer to put in a van space that's their business so the number in the type will be determined by The Building Commissioner yeah so in addition to getting the the modified pedestrian access the board also wants clarification and a final plan on the Ada parking yeah and I would like to see also as as dear mentioned the proposed plans that they would have for alternative parking so whether that's valet or parking at CVS or sander some type of proposal that the other businesses have agreed to not that is still up in the air but something more definitive to reduce the parking issues yeah unfortunately the center of town is one big parking issue but we do with it the best we can and then Evan dudra mentioned something about and I'm still getting up to speed on these but the reduction can be applied to the customers but not the employees no I think what djer is saying is uh the parking required includes employee plus um customers there's a meth there's a ratio there and I think What DJ was saying is Well if you're increasing seating capacity are you also increasing employee employee numbers to serve that increased capacity if that's the case then the requested um 12 parking spaces it's not clear whether they were entirely for customers or if it included an increase for employees as well I think that's what yeah so who would provide those clarified numbers I think the applicant needs to clarify okay right I mean if the applicant comes back to the board and says well 30 additional seats we not having any additional employees I think that's the clarity that the board's looking for the police department asked for three handicap yeah that that final determination is made by uh the Building Commissioner yeah who is the Ada coordinator so I will speak with him but I wanted to add that in Massachusetts one in six handic cap spots needs to be van accessible with a minimum of one so there has to be one no matter what right that if that's the law then that's what's required and I I think on the approved plan I think one of the original spaces indeed was was yeah I just didn't want that to go away no I can't I mean it it won't get approved unless Jose approves anyway okay any other items that we need uh to ask for I want to make sure that that you guys know what you want what you need to bring next time and uh I would suggest April 10th thank you is it can you do April 10th yes um just I want to put it out there that we already delayed over a year yeah um and any delay over with the ramp would be and I'm not minimizing the issue but um it's it's just going to push the project that much further back yeah every time we come back and we go back for a new material uh to satisfy um you know all the request uh it's going to it's not going to happen overnight if I call the architect tomorrow it's going to get back to me 3 weeks from tomorrow yeah well that's kind of why we were thinking April 10th might be more appropriate than that mean the prev the earlier one is March 27th and that sounds like that's iffy so I don't think that gives them enough time to get doesn't give them enough time to get this stuff together yeah I I mean if I as I understand the priorities are really the board wants to see letters or a proposal for Val something something employee parking and the other items are was up to me I would just go with the 100 seats and thank you all for your time tonight but uh but we're all really looking forward to this open we're all dying to come so but I hope you'll be more understanding in our situation though I mean it's been over 3 years uh frustration is building a lot more on our side because it's costing us more it's not costing you money um 2 and A2 years of sitting there empty was costing us money and now moving forward is costing us money every time that we delay for a week or month so that's a frustration on our part well to that point can I ask why construction stopped during Co yeah because everything finished building was completely finished we even put um staging furniture in one unit but we had no electricity because the one part that we were waiting for was 9 months delay we ordered it 21 month ahead because they says might take about 14 months and we did not get it for 21 months so that was electricity to both the residential and the power was coming in as a temporary power but it would not go to a a distribution box so we couldn't get full power to the building if you have no full power you can't get C occupany you can your equipment checked you can't have electricity check nothing nothing was wor so we s in the N9 months basically collecting dust um we had a gas furnace installed in the basement just to keep the building warm during that n months so and you couldn't have done design work or the outside work everything everything was done for the building but we couldn't start on the phase two as I said the original architect we found out was not the right design team for the restaurant everything in the building as we promised would be done was done ahead of time um prior to our deadline um but it took miracle for us even to get it when we got it yeah the National Grid's not always easiest to work with it was actually a private company that private company huh yeah private company we're going to do a vote to continue to April 10 just for the record Joel is a voting member as of now on this one do we have a motion to continue you're in the game kid how you feeling second we have motion we have a second all in favor thank you for your time thank you we'll see you see you in a month yes sir um okay uh it's perilously close to 11 o'clock actually one might argue it's even a minute past do we have any more we need to do motion to adjourn second second i i d you can vote from the audience m e for