um statement of adequate notice pursuant to the Sunshine Law adequate notice in accordance with the open public meeting Act was provided on January 5th 2024 this meeting's date time place and the agenda was mailed to the news media posted on the township Bolton board mailed to those requesting personal notice and filed with the municipal clerk okay this is our first meeting of the year so it's a reorganization meeting we have to um elect the chairperson before we go forward Jackie do you want to see if there are any nominations n okay now take a now I have to take a vote I I accept the nomination now do the roll you have to do the roll call Kathy Easton yes Jessica irons yes Jackie Johnson yes Bonnie Larson yes Marilyn niss niss yes okay and now do roll call please and then we'll begin the meeting that was the vote and now you do all call now that there's an official chairperson and it's the first meeting of the Year Kathy Easton here Jessica irons here Jackie Johnson here Bonnie lson here Marilyn Miss Lee Marilyn Lee just Lee just Lee pleas is here just Lee is here okay um thank you has everyone had a chance and I'm going to move on to the approval of the minutes um has everyone had a chance to look at the minutes from the November meeting that's a yes would anyone like to make a nomination to um approve the minutes of the November 2 meeting and move to accept the minutes um all in favor all in favor I I so sorry Jackie you moved and Bonnie second I don't know what what's what happened to this person who was sitting there it's being recorded and I'll try and I will try to come reach um uh Summarize each item so that it it's clear so um all so me just for making a few notes here that's the minutes approval okay and now moving on um what that other one old business uh Community forestry management plan if you would like to report first your volunteer hours and if any of those volunte hours are CE hours it's early in the year so I don't although there was I think one webinar about the new community Force you imagine plan but I don't think there was credit for that that was my understanding the last webinar I think was we could get ours for the bark I mean the identifying trees oh the winter ID oh yeah the winter ID you went to that one with Kieran right great okay so your hours are how many Bonnie five five and one of those is right the bar CE the win bark is good so one CE out of the five volunteer um Jessica onece um Urban with seminar I'm not making a note of that but you guys keep track of that as you keep track of your hour saying so one in one one in I mean Jessica one and one your hour is C the hour that you have a seek excellent and which one was that again that it was an urban Woods semar oh how was that one it was it was interesting yeah good um later if any wants to share from either of those um uh Jackie I have a nine hours no CES okay and I'm sorry I'm sorry I looked at that wrong 12 hours 12 hours and no CE okay and Lee okay um so that takes care of that do not plant an exhibit the status we're going to remove this from the uh old business until Jackie and I have um gone through it all and updated and check the spelling and part of the reason is and I just want to bring this to up I do I did print out the oh no I didn't actually well there was the legislation that was in the state um was vetoed by the governor because the governor felt that it all should come from the EPA however the EPA doesn't make those things happen actually um and so they're going to put forward a new legislation that has language that that they hope will suit the governor um and this legislation is to block the sale not block the sale but prevent the sale of invasive species and there's several that are listed um we can go over that a little later because do not plant will become part of our ordinance somehow when we redo the ordinance by the way that's a good idea so yes and that's from Denise really um so so I'll mention that um slf management ADV so in other words none of the Nur would be able to sell those plants that is correct that's good they wouldn't they wouldn't um be prohibited immediately there'd be a phase out yeah time but that's good if we could see barbarry disappear from the nurseries that would be something um slf management um hopefully this was the last time um two things one uh they took out the savet Tre removed the rest of the atanus and treated any um cuts any uh treated what was left treated the stumps or it was a slashing treat with because there were a lot of saplings they also did the pruning um well that's actually in new business but anyway I think that's the last time a but speaking of slf management there's a Boy Scout I guess an eagle scout has a project but he hasn't consulted us yet but I did see some he's collecting materials to build Circle traps to put on trees I don't know the location of the trees the species of the trees but he will have to to put share to put what Circle traps to trap spotted Lantern fly this is a project but we haven't the utility Road um behind the firehouse that's where isn't it isn't it kind of like past the time well I guess we'll see how many are during the season we'll see how many he pulls off because there are atanas existing there and because it's a utility Road and but it Borders The Preserve we haven't looked at removal of those trees that's something we could revisit again this year because we have certainly have money um but uh so do you excuse me Barbara am I can I do you know how um this is the season he plans to put it out the Scout this year do you should I reach out to him or is someone in touch anyone in touch with this scout that he because we meet don't meet again till April and he wouldn't be putting the traps up before then right well the thing is right however there are trees and we have full authority over all all the trees especially if there's going to be something placed on the trees so um he said no I have nothing I've just been reading about it in you know it's in the mayor's newsletter then it was on Facebook recently to collect to collect um well my understanding from both EC and Denise C was instructed to consult the Sha Tre commission um which so if there's a quick way I mean he doesn't have to come to a meeting I think as long I think everyone would trust me to review the plans and give any appropriate advice for tree so doesn't I mean doesn't have to appear at a meeting but we need to see something to approve so that's all so that's happening and now we know where it's happening and there there isn't I'll tex yeah and I'm I'm assuming do you know if the target trees I mean I know what the target insect is are the is he putting them just on the Atlantis trees okay um I'm assuming yeah and I think does anyone know isn't it true that the female trees are better or more heavily occupied by the slf or am I making that up and nobody okay never mind I'm sorry yeah I don't I don't know anything about it except that he was collecting materials and yeah we we'll need to know how to fix what the material is how when will it be cleaned up you know what what the scope of the project is and what the timeline is so um I'm sure he's put something together if you went in front of the um Township committee great great thank you thank you very much um so that's that so that will control slf management at the other end of town where we've done none so that's sort of strikes a good balance there um and then treat inventory uh there's nothing new to report so actually that can come off of future agendas as well to inventory for now because there's nothing new to report um uh Jackie might have a few comments she has um gone to look at some trees and then compared to them to the report just to get a sense of um the rating system do you want to say something Jackie yeah um now that we have the tree inventory I feel like we need some um coordination with the uh Jerry Thorne because he uh has had a number of trees removed and we want to keep our inventory updated but we don't know what trees he's taken down other than walking around the whole inventory and seeing which trees are taken I can request um all invoices copies of all invoices which would be would that have the list of trees on I would it actually specify yes it specifies the trees sure that's my yeah the ones that I reviewed they'll specify where that tree is taken down I mean they yeah so I can request um invoice copies so we can and keep track of that and then we'll have to discuss um out of a meeting who would oh absolutely if you need help okay so um uh Memorial tree for Patrick man I'll be coordinating with the neighbors who want to plant this gift in Memorial Park we could just add an that can stay on the old business because um uh I'll know more have a species selection by the April meeting so I do just want to make a note here that it will be in Millstone Park and community outreach a couple of things maybe we could set a date for a triw walk like I did a few years ago at Heritage but also um I'm coordinating with we'll be coordinating with Jennifer dler at the cranberry school to do she walks on the school property or possibly in the Cranberry Brook preserve um you know but outdoor uh meet and greet with trees as part of their um and I don't know exactly what that would look like but it will be part of their climate change curriculum which I believe all grades have a climate change curriculum now so we will be able to um do something um with that but we and I'll see how that's going to work and I'm looking at Jessica and Jackie I know had interest in doing that uh being working so so there's that yeah and and uh I guess I could contact the principal to find out um if I could see the curriculum just to you know so so we know the audience we're speaking to yeah she'll she's going to get back to us and let us know how that works she'll see she'll seek um I guess the individual grades or take a look at that and then let us know how we can fit in depending on the grade but it occurs to me that we should probably be able to fit that in with almost any grade um trees and you know how they're associated with the ecology oh great that is Excellence that's right in line with that and and I I will copy you of course on that as well that's right Barbara is very helpful um Leone for us because she knows what's going on otherwise thank you um okay so oh and as far as a date I think we can wait till April to do that to make the date um and someone else might need to lead it I have well I'll tell you about that after but um okay so oh the work session actually the work session actually is supposed to oh I see we'll just we'll get we'll get to that it's um it's at the bottom of old new business so new business 2023 Tre City USA application is in progress have to make a few tweaks and that'll be done uh today tomorrow I'm thinking we submit that annual accomplishments report I will coordinate with Jackie B who is here I believe Tuesdays Wednesdays and Thursdays and Jackie J who would also like to see how that works um right now uh Jackie Johnson and I will schedule um I think I we can go to the library and put a flash drive that flash drive that I have in the computer at the library so we can at the the same time complete what we can complete and then kick it back to the township to finish it off to send it it has to be done within a week even though the deadline is the 15th I believe the township gave me a deadline of the 9th here to get that done so um we will talk so that so they will be done by um well February 15th which is when they're both due Tree City always goes in first and then there's some coordination between the two in the state with the state tree planting um there's a list of trees to replace trees that have been taken down and the neighbor the residents specifically requested trees and I've got a list of those as well as some places where trees do need to be replaced um because they went down or whatever um tree pruning will'll be looking at the Young trees on Main Street which I believe DPW had intended to limb up and do structural pruning on but I don't think they have and so we'll get the AR to do that which is more appropriate Jackie do you want to say something yeah um it is important for the young trees to be trimmed you know after three or five years but after being planted but we have the tree inventory too so when we get the arborist i' like you know we need to use this tree inventory uh in general we've only taken care of Main Street mostly you know and for people to back us up with this new ordinance we need to clean up some of the trees in the neighborhoods too because otherwise people just look at trees and say you know look at them their branches are fallen and that kind of thing so if they see us working on the trees in the neighborhoods most it's important to note that a lot of the neighborhoods any neighborhood that has an HOA we don't work on those trees in other words that c doesn't come out of that's not shade tree or Township those that's handled by the HOAs and that does apply to several neighborhoods actually the GRE even even if there's not they're not they're not shade trees that I'm that I don't I thought it was just if they had an HOA that's that was some owners right right the whole purpose of the tree inventory well yes the tree I don't think there are Street trees in Shadow Oaks I think all the trees are planted on the res so that's just the way they were planted there are no shade trees there and I don't think and but the green right and the walk cranberry walk has an HOA and cranberry green has an HOA but Shadow Oak but Shadow Oaks doesn't but the trees aren't on the street they plant they were planted which was which was really so much better for so many reasons look at those trees I mean um I mean so wind windw doesn't either Windwood doesn't have a does not have an HOA I know but we we the inventory involves the streets that do have Street trees it's true and that's oh yeah oh yes yes of course you mean the non- neighborhood ones mostly because just a few neighborhoods that are is all right no I'm just saying that that's that is this that is the most of them are right so if I can just ask is is it possible to use the tree inventory as we have it to drive like where we want to have like these questions of pruning planting Etc uh it was my understanding that the tree inventory was going to help us drive those priorities so that based on the hazards the hazards to begin with yes the Hazardous absolutely that's where we're going to start the ones that are are hazardous that are Street trees does the tree go into General health of the tree or yes yeah it has priority levels and um it has recommendations for the first year to um deal with the hazard trees but um some of the pruning also you know and they finish it up yeah and and they see a fiveyear plan there's crossover between in the budget and DPW does a lot of the street trees and we have mostly been paying for pruning of parks and connect ctor paths between neighborhoods that kind of thing um but but certainly and certainly what we need to keep in mind is Jackie said is the young trees they're all P five years um and then you know we want to have a consultant I can't remember as Bonnie you said you would take on that I know Jessica sorry that I'm jumping into action items but uh getting the names of some Consultants that we could work with far stewards whatever to see if someone can advise us regarding the wood cops in Village Park as well as um well gramy book preserve right not now the next thing would be the Hagerty trees they they'll need some care if we want that Forest to be healthy and mostly that's removal of invasives um volunteer raise your hand um I think that was an action item we'll get to that at the end I think that was an action item from the last from November um so tree pruning yes so tree pruning first it's the prim primarily any hazardous trees that are hazardous in any um yeah and and actually here's a question so so when we're when we're walking our dogs are driving and we see hazardous Tree in one of the neighborhoods that does have an HOA is there a way to not warn them but to um inform them or ask them to would that be like a letter from the township to say it's come to our attention that this tree is hazardous usually go to you you will if it comes from the if it if it comes from the resident they all come they do it does come to me but if it was just an observation by one of us I'm just curious like that hasn't come up before it's usually [Music] on well no not no not the backyard we don't go on to we well we'll see what happens to the tree protection ordinance and we'll get to that in a second because um no we don't do that a tree that is it's a street tree but they own it like in your neighborhood let's say there was one that was literally about to fall is wonder if there's a a um a way to I think I think it comes from the resident okay so then that's the way it works so never mind about that that was that was a tangent we don't need to re um make note of any of that um tree [Music] inquiry almost you know like want to have the puppet trees trimmed up and and then people a is that what you trying to say yeah um yes okay that's what I was instead of just concentrating on Main Street trees we did other with the inventory involves all those side streets and I you know checked out a couple of them and I was horrified to see some really dead and dying trees huge trees that are Street trees you know uh and they're on the inventory and they're on the inventory and are they are the is the rating for each Isa and then the other rating both like hazardous or I have it right here let me see and another words you chose to look at them you notice them because they were dead or you chose them because they were listed as high risk or uh because they looked like uh they were obviously you know like at least a third or a fourth or a half of the bark was off of the tree and there there large trees wa and some of them were on the inventory and some weren't I didn't weren't an exact uh you know it's it's a huge thing I just didn't did so instead of like focusing on one area well the inventory has them rated so you know the fact that jury that the township took some trees down uh you know I saw the evidence of One Tree that was recently cut down that was on the inventory but you know I didn't spend a lot of time I just did a quick thing we only just got the inventory so I haven't had a lot of time but I I want to get this coordinated with the the town with the DPW if they're taking trees down you know I don't know how frequently they get a list and decide okay we're gonna hire um so I get she get some residential inquiries and all those are I coordinate with DPW right but I don't know with DPW what usually prompts action is a residential inquiry that I don't know that didn't Chri wasn't aware of or observation I believe from the public works guys or um when something big falls on the road they have to do something right away right and that's great that's great but now that we have the tree inventory we need to get this information yeah that's what I that's why I'm going to get the copies of the invoices because any work that they have done is all recorded on the invoices but I don't see them I need to ask for them and because there's no Public Works secretary I mean it used to work much smoother when we had a public work secretary I just want to say that um because there was someone to coordinate with you know um DPW is mostly out in the field all the time um so but I can certainly do that uh maybe I will be given permission to um get the invoices through Finance instead of having to go through someone um who is not a clerk or you know um a finance person maybe I could do that I can talk to the to our Le's all different but I did just want to say there's one here's situation sort of so here's a Acer rub it's in critical condition and when it says critical under condition under the res residual risk it just says na which I guess means well it's critical so there is no it's beyond the risk um measurement and it should be removed and it's on Silver's drive so that was just an example of like oh here I have this information anyway we can we can talk more about that right um and you know we because we have this Excel sheet pages and pages of um this you know it would be easy for me or someone else on the um if we got the list of these trees we could update the uh Excel sheet which is the whole purpose right and so here's a question for Township committee where where does the Excel sheet live on my PC do I do I manage the dock I mean who's going to manage it is there a way to manage it here so that we are responsible for bringing the changes in but the doc stays here the commission might change we don't want to lose track of this information I I never think that Township you know yes I mean they have a copy but who where should the master current you know as as we deliver updates to ITR send we we update it and then send them a new one and say this is the current one okay uh is it Poss POs to make it public um sure I don't see why not I mean so it could live on the website the township website well then we don't want people yeah and I don't think we want people manipulating it on the township website because then the public could manipulate it any way they want it it's not you know it's an open document it's it's fluid so in other words not so many people should be messing around with the cell sheet is what I'm saying like we can't leave it to the home owners to say oh I got that I was thinking like you could post it as a PDF that would be or or something like that that would be public information um I assume it is public well well the thing is the thing is what's interesting because at Cha tree I mean at cranberry day um the past two years I've been telling people because I as you know I was very excited about the tree inventory no one was very interested if they have a problem with the tree they're going to let us know and um you know and then we have this as a reference but really it'll be more for our reference if there's if there if there seems to be some curiosity about it we can certainly do that when we do a tree walk or tree information like we can certainly sh you know show the kids and you know the public what what was been what's been developed and that we're maintaining it what would I I just it's it's what we're working on it's a I mean it's public information anybody has a right to request it oh yeah I think I I'm pretty sure some other townships have posted theirs I could look at that just yeah I think it's just I mean but it would be a way of having like this is the inventory of record and you know that it's the inventory of record because it's what's on the website yeah it's posted in Princeton and that's because Princeton is a full-time arborist yeah and he's responsible for it and you know we don't we don't have a designated paid person um I mean in terms of space I mean there's it would take no space I mean for in the world of you know what a website would are you talking about like yeah I I don't know but we can but I can um I I think it's POS it's just it's a matter it's not whether or not it's possible and then update it every time load a new one every time we update it I you or however often you decided that you wanted to yeah fluid document even though it's a huge document the parts of it that are fluid yeah um also I just wanted to Jackie's Point get back to DPW in coordination gpw has a copy of this and they have been checking out some of the trees wherever they are you know from this list is my understanding and I did get some feedback that a couple of them that were listed as um not great condition were in somewhat better condition um that you know it's it's subjective to some extent although there was a lot of measurable things in that that's what that's what the arbor did who gave us the tree inventory because they're all measurable and that's what they did so but they do have the document so um you know if there was well unfortunately oh it does have page numbers you know we can refer them to that when we see something and say by the way it's listed on page eight of 40 you know here's the address so yeah it could definitely coordination they have a copy of it as well yeah I'm just looking for the flow from them to us we send them information we haven't been receiving well no I did I did get the last I did get the last copy of an invoice um this year yes for trees that were being taken down but it was before we had the inventory so there's so I have to now I have to compare them the inventory was in progress and I got that list and I know it was it was happening concurrently it was happening concurrently that they were taking the trees down that the that Matt was finishing up the inventory so I don't we have to check to see what's what's there or not but also want to say in terms of modeling tree care that's what we've been doing in the parks for years trying to clean you know so at least the trees look good and and also because they're used so well it's important to have the trees there too right I agree we've been you know you've been you know before I was even involved you've been taken care of the high uh traffic areas the parks and Main Street with the where the cars are parked and stuff uh but these a couple of these older I call them neighborhoods but but you don't consider the streets the the streets that have houses that are all different uh I would be afraid to park my car next to some of these trees that's all Maplewood Street Maplewood Avenue is a good example of that I mean that is a neighborhood I mean this is considered the village so that's like this is the way the township has always looked at it one you know this is the village and then there are the developments but yeah we want all the trees to be healthy and we have worked on trees at Shadow Oaks when they were the trees in the island we took care we did uh uh DPW did some work there um and nobody here lives in the green I'm wondering who is in charge of the tree of multing the trees on the island on Old Trenton Road because it is that's that's an ho because it has to stop but well that's maybe someone can reach out to someone in the green and find out who does that because that has to stop um and that looks does not look good for all the people who drive through cranberry and see those trees they are the worst model of any kind of you know here's our neighborhood yeah I'll reach out to Jerry yeah absolutely well we need the invoices for other reasons as well that's for the annual report which is why I'm about to reach out for some invoices that um I know I don't have for last year because I need to have the numbers for the annual report so there's a lot of reasons to see that to know the trees and it used to come well you know I've been here a while so it used to come from the secretary of the public works department because um all that was organized and counted and and and they were aware of our annual reporting which used to be way casual in um and it was like a paragraph and a few pages of info but now it's been standardized and it's going to be updated again well that's going to be fary management plan um so that was about tree pruning any other questions or comments about about tree pruning tree inquiries I think forgive me I can only remember one because it was s recent and that was a tree that was in it's in it's not a street tree but it's very close to the street but it was on Township property by the parking lot on West Drive that's they call it now right West Drive to the CR preserve um and the situation it's covered with Ivy was covered with Ivy and the situation was the homeowner was told they their um homeowners insurance would be canceled if the tree didn't go away so there was quick coordination and action between Jackie and I who happened to be meeting on other stuff that day and DPW and the ground was still snow and ice covered at the time but the weather um changed and they were able to get the tree down uh within days and well before her cancellation date that she shared with us so that we so that DPW would know so that was sort of an emergency situation unusual that's the first time came up and that's the only inquiry I can think of insurance companies are coming out looking at your property no idea what their situation was but that they they were going to have it cancelled if they didn't remove the tree which was a liability it was very close to their building but not on but the their property line their property line their building is on the property line so anything on the other side of that was Township and and they also produced the survey and everything I mean it was all very cut it was all um it was done really well and quickly and that was a good way to start the year I thought so let's see member reports um you want to go first anything that we haven't covered yet um oh well you want yeah Jackie and I went to the parks meeting this month and one of the things they were talking about was putting a sculpture in that Center Island by the New Path and we suggested um maybe they would like to consider a tree some kind of nice big specimen tree because they've been asking for trees I can't remember how many trees along the path but we said our priority as Jackie said is replacing Street trees as well as taking care of Street trees before we plant trees in the park and there is um at the budget meeting uh well they so they were going to put money in their budget for the trees but it was sort of at Cross purposes so we we'll revisit it again in the future planting trees along the park P along the new Walking path at Village Park is that sound right right and and you um talked to them about the oh yeah okay um and so that's so that and and Jackie and I met um just to sort of take a look at the agenda um and where things were with pruning and planting and um and the works the work session today which we hopefully will begin soon as we uh finish member reports does anybody else have a report to share anything from the township committee Bonnie um anything from the township committee Barbara have they had a chance to consider whether we will include fees or not with in the new ordinance because we are having a work session today and we're not sure what direction to go in okay yeah well it just came up in November I only put it I just put it to them in November and speak I'm sorry go ahead there only been two meetings this year they've been very very short at a half hour each and nothing came up at either okay I'm Barbara can follow up with that and speaking of that um oh my gosh so you want me to out do do does the Township support charging a a permit fee to have trees removed one to however many Andor a fine for removing trees without getting a permit is that how it goes yeah do they support that plus how much and the replace yes so and then also okay okay okay well we will put that together actually at the meeting because we're having a work session um because if I say a certain I understand yeah I understand we yes we'll put that together we'll put that together as part of our work session following um I did want to report that I did attend that I oh excuse me oh when you done want to go when you're done okay um whatever I attended I want to say it was a November 27th meeting uh Township committee meeting and gave a report I think I sent everybody a copy of the report is that true does anyone remember getting it a copy of the annual report you listened no and that report really help with the bud and support and thank you I want to say that the township committee was very supportive at the meeting on November 27th um this is I happy to copy this um I won't go over the the points that I made but it was you know all about trees trees and more trees and there was an adjustment um let's see I'm kind of jumping around there was an adjustment to the budget because we were not able to encumber the pruning funds which we had done the year before and Denise doesn't want us to make a habit of that and I hardly agree so but she did say I could we could put the printing money from 23 into 24 and we did and so our current budget is now $65,000 65 um 9 65950 that is 50,000 for tring tree pring pruning and maintenance 20 of which the work has just occurred so it's another 30 to do what we need to do as to Jackie's point take care of these Street trees um and then 10,000 for us to plant uh and all these things need to um get going early uh so maybe we could have some subcommittee or something um so that's so the budget and then Jackie and I went to the budget meeting on Saturday where we explained what we were doing and again received a lot of support um you know to move forward expeditiously this year um and I think that's pardon yes and there is also for consulting which I talk to Bonnie more about because I guess there's um $5,000 for Consulting Arbor Forest Steward to 5,000 um for restoration that's not for the work that's for the Consulting the work will be maybe um for restoration preservation of the tree cops the bike trail area in Village Park the young Forest at Pin Oaks and cranber Brook preserve just to get some idea of what kind of plans would be happening there and that's what that's what we're looking for a consultant for um and anybody else have any other member reports coin EnV oh absolutely yes who's the chair now is it um John reinfelder yeah once I have something like concrete to say about it that then I yeah one of absolutely Ely yeah yeah there has to be a plan and I just want to say this you know really I mean one huge step would be to have a deer fence as as we but it occurs to me can we have a deer fence that close to to Cranberry Brook is are there all kinds of implications because we're fencing and like how would that like this is let me to think about how would that work yeah but so we could talk about that with the EC yes I know I remember yeah so that's something we could I would coordinate with Barbara and EC and somebody else from this committee on yeah because you want to preserve not to harp on The Preserve but what we're preserving now is not worth preserving and we and there but there still many valuable things in there that we can save add to and protect and we don't want to see well it's a whole different situation but we certainly don't want to see the pin the hagy forest or pin oaks whatever they call it um get into any kind of situation like that although it is very different um providences of the trees but anyway um summary of action items uh does anybody else want to summarize let's see um I'm going to give Bonnie some information so that she can uh shop around for consultants and I'll help Annie with that um once I coordinate with get get some kind of coordination going I would like maybe Jessica and Jackie can spearhead the school um program you know whatever we're going to do with the climate change and then any of us can volunteer even if there were three of us I think that would be fine it wouldn't be a meeting if there were three of us that wanted to go along as tree mentors or whatever [Music] um a well um I'll there's I'll just do all the things I'm doing yes if you could pleas yes but isn't it Chris isn't it Chris sensey that's doing it or Stephen sensey a different Sensei I thought yes so this is a brother I believe and it's Steve or Chris I'm sorry um I I'm so I'm sorry well you know who it is so [Music] um po um anybody else want to speak about an action item that they're doing working on I I will um you're what I need yes yep the or the um fee fees question yep I'm gonna that we're going to do that today at our work session right okay great so then you can okay perfect and and I should um keep the uh Tre inventory Excel sheet updated okay and I'm also going to contact Dr secretary doing the climate change thing whatever yeah and maybe they can um and when we have arbit day we'll be able to say something about that too to the to the public when we I'm just thinking we have arbit we mention the the tree Ed part whatever whatever it is that we end up doing with the school that's I great [Music] um and I told you about the 2024 budget meeting sorry that I I really that I didn't didn't realize that was in that place okay any does anybody have anything else today before we go into the work session I guess I just I needed to report on a couple of my action items just reports from like not new ones but the ongoing old old on Ono nice just just with regard to the process for high school Princeton High School service hours is that um high school students can get uh they can get credit for Serv hours they just have to ask for them in advance they need to be with a I believe they need to be with a nonprofit or or government organization regardless um we would certainly qualify they would just need to ask for that in advance and there are some ongoing rolling programs that that have been communicated and established with the high school um that just takes somebody to coordinate and present it and what are you suggesting the high school how would they help us the high school no that that was just like an open query that if we if we had something that they could be helpful with what would be involved with actually using students for that and so it just the question was really about the process not about a I don't know anything about as I understood my job was actually just to report back on the process uh there's no I don't believe we were at the point of no and we we were suggesting that we stay in town with our coordination with students and work you know and insert ourselves into the climate change program being part of that with the school I'm just talking about the high school students so the the cranberry students go to Princeton High School so right with their service if they were to get service hours it would have to be coordinated with with with Princeton High School and it's what I'm saying is it's easy to do that if there were something that we had we they would just need to know in advance and then they let there's like a system there like they they they let the coordinator know in advance I'm going to be going and doing this project and then they get and then they can get credit for it and would it be like um when we do invasive control with volunteers that kind of thing absolutely kind we haven't established that yet so so that kind of work is already happening in Princeton with Princeton High School students so they have they already have service hours doing outso outdoor that kind of thing so what are you suggesting they would they they What Would we that if we had a need I'm trying to maybe we we had a need I'm saying that we we have a pool of high school like we have high school AG students who are annually going to be need in in in of service hours so does anyone have any ideas of something that they can do to help us Jackie pins again that's Trail maintenance well so Environ for the new store Water Management permitting so we have students from from high school that are going to come and help us now that's great so like if you like if we find out what needs to be done in know they help like not cut yeah it would be cutting the invas away and raking them into piles for uh disposal that kind of thing is like the only thing I can think of at the moment and I don't know about tools you know cutting tools and that kind of thing as well as all the things you can be allergic to like I don't know if that's the best way to engage they're already out there doing that service hours they're they're out there doing invasives and cutting stuff down and are they bringing their own tools or do we need would we would we need to supply tools and is there like wa or something the um I'm not aware of them having to sign anything what the my kids just go they I I tell them to wear you know they have to wear their Muk boots and inappropriate gloves which they're not allowed to reuse or bring into the house and uh but the tools are are supplied by the uh coordinator for them so we would have to add that to our budget because we don't have any tools unless you wanted to tell people to bring their own tools I mean you could do I mean all I'm saying is that the the question was about the process and it wasn't I didn't have a specific project in mind it's just saying if we had things that we wanted to do it would be lovely it would be really nice to engage the high school age students here in their Hometown absolutely because I because we have kids doing it in which is great I'm glad that they're that they're doing things in the greater cranberry Regional area is working with the EC on that kind of thing already well we could use a map let's talk about that so I would just say like if the yeah if something comes up I just you know U but that was something on my list to report back on in terms of the process like maybe mapping trees in the park or something I don't know I don't know if that's a viable thing but we can talk about we can talk about that um because that you know those ches aren't on the inventory any of the parks that's that was a future phase so that's something need to think about and then I was just going to say that the seminar that I attended was um with it was sponsored by the Society of American Foresters and it was with the urban it was presenting the urban wood Network which is kind of a pretty cool group Urban wood it's called the urban wood Network and what they do is they what they're trying to do is kind of um it's Consortium of different like commercial arborists and nonprofits are trying to um establish kind of a a standard for taking down and utilizing and recycling Urban trees that can be used not just turned into mulch or end up in a landfill but repurposed for as Building Material Furniture other items and but really developing a standard for how that's used and and some kind of registration um certification process for that it's a it's a just it's an interesting group in terms of recycling and and many some towns have have some have some kind of H system where when the trees go down they're either they're they're put to use if they can be put to use as you said repurposed um I don't know how that would work here but you could look into that um yeah I don't know if there's anything act with it it's a new group and they're working on they're working on putting together materials that can be used by commercial arborus as well as communities so I I think this one is more like just sort of like wait and watch see what they come out with I wonder if they have to have a minimum number of trees that are going to be processed to make that program work you know because you get the transport the material to another place to be processed um because I certainly it's probably would be more expensive than the mulching and as we we have trees Mulch and we don't even keep the mulch like it'd be nice to put the trees back to put that back to you somehow in the community I'm not sure how that would work but it may be a matter of just summoning information and letting people know that they've got other options oh for the residents that why don't you that would oh I of course I'm thinking of just like the trees that DPW but in terms of identifying I think they're trying to create and there is a network where they're trying to expand their network of arborists who have this in their toolkit is one of the options of what they can do is to steer trees for being that are it not all trees are worth that but like that could be repurposed in some way so because there's sort of a commercial angle to that and someone's going to be making money from getting this wood we can't recommend Arbus like I don't know how that would work for us we can't say if you use these Arbus you can then give your wood repur whatever shry can't do that so yeah I think it's more a matter of just letting people know that there is this that that is an option and that there are ways to do that and so what they're working on I think is more of a like of a certification so that we wouldn't say go work with this group but there is like look for somebody who has this and I don't know if this is what they're going to call it but like the urban wood Network certification if you're interested in repurposing and so the certification goes to the homeowner is that what you're saying no I think the certification is with the uh with a contractor that's what they're certified to to process the wood yeah just sort of like we tell people use a certified arous but if you're like if you're interested in this you know in in your trees is being repurposed in some way look for this C look for this certification or whatever it is look for this particular thing as long as we're not trying all voluntary upale upsale or anything that's okay as long as there's no you know commercial value plac that that would and this is a nonprofit Network trying to that's working this is in process it's under development so so are there any resources right now that are available for there might be I haven't their website because that's something we could certainly have at the cranberry day table I could get back because then it would be a takeaway they could or maybe it's a website but you know if you want to you know if you're not using the wood chips for you know something like that if they wanted to um because there's certainly a sustainable element here I believe is what they're that's absolutely so and they're looking at both um you know trees that are coming down as well as repurposing Lumber that you know like if you're taking buildings being taken down and things like that but I mean the numbers are actually pretty remarkable in terms of what could be if we actually collectively were reusing our Urban Tree resources just including trees that have come down are aged out as well as you know or come down in storms as well as building materials this is in New Jersey nationally nationally um it's it would make a huge impact to reuse versus having to harvest new materials so right yeah it's this is a new this is kind of a new thing I just thought it was interesting can you tell the say the full name it's Urban wood yeah it's called the urban wood Network they are yeah um and and who what seminar was this I'm sorry through the new NJ UCF and it was like and then I think sponsored by the so Society of American Foresters oh interesting but the presentation was from the urban W right right yeah there's a lot of Woodworkers that would love some of these trees my husband mentioned that if a black walnut tree well do they have Sawmills CU without the Sawmill can't and actually there for a while there was this is this goes back but there was some coordination with people taking down trees and someone who had a sawmill in town and some trees were used that way but it was very you know it was all done privately but the there was you know someone knew that this guy has a sawmill and so that's if someone's getting a nice tree taken down it could be repurposed that's where it went went and they got the wood back and did whatever they did with it whether they sold it or or you know built something with it so and that was very informal but um it doesn't that doesn't exist anymore but that's very similar kind of thing yeah yeah so I think that they're just I think the uh I think the industry is just trying to organize around this so hopefully more to come more of the same yeah yes they used to be saved in town and nobody was really interested except me and normous whale me and we would end and probably Lee took mulch but it didn't move and it got you it was they couldn't maintain it well of course so they weren't shredded really they were they were mulched and so a lot of them were Barky and it was a heavier mulch but um you know also diseased trees aren't supposed to be in that mulch I don't know how much that affects the mulch but anyway all I believe all of our chipping now goes to Barton Nursery our chipping and I believe it's right uh well we'll find out that's all of our Township chipping I assume pardon that's that the township chipping goes to Barton or which is in the township which is where we'll be looking at trees so it all sort of comes back around um so that is I mean that's a good see that is I see that is sustainable that it comes from town it stays in town yeah we keep and we keep all of our chipping on our property and a lot of people do do that but a lot of people don't most people um not everyone has the option the space yeah I mean not everyone has the space or even you know the place to to use it because it does need to break down to some extent okay um does anybody have anything else before we move into work session about the ordinance um I make a motion to adjourn as the time is um well the bell's ringing so I'm just going to say it's 11 that it's 11:00 a.m. I'll second second who seconded Jackie is that you Jackie yes so Jackie moved seconded and you guys um so I'm going to call the work session to order at 1101 it's 11:01 11:01 and there's the Bell again although I thought that was the outside Bell I heard a few minutes ago the 11 okay 11: Bells around twice now um and this is the first meeting okay so I'm just making notes here um I'll just take attendance real quick Kathy Easton here uh Jessica is here Jackie Bonnie and Lee everyone's still here we won't be voting on anything during the work session and the nature of the work session is the tree replacement removal replacement ordinance um does everybody have a copy or does anyone need a copy of the final model ordinance okay well we can copy that just give us a second to get organized okay nope this is the final one okay so it doesn't have page numbers and I'm going to put page numbers on it before I copy it because I think it'll be easier oops so to uh to refer to so do everyone need a copy okay there are eight pages there are eight pages I'm going to go to The copier and copy them and is anybody else want oh oh three oh thank you so much okay um so while Debbie is kindly making those copies uh where we were was um uh the 27th of November I asked the township committee for to think about what kind of fee structure they might want to have if any at all um Dr Rogers will follow up on that at the township committee meeting this coming Monday and so uh I'd like to sort of move things along to the point where we not Monday well whenever the next meeting is that's oh forgive me that is a week from Monday yeah I'm I'm jumping ahead I know it's only the first sorry today okay well the the 12th right okay so she'll be so [Music] um we have this model ordinance we also oh you know what else we need a copy of probably did any does anyone still have the copy of Denise's recommendations as well as the township attorney's um notes yeah these were all passed out at previous meetings what do you mean you don't get anything you don't receive the township emails in your Township emaila yeah this would have been a while ago this would have been probably two meetings ago well this would have been a while ago so I have it the you have it yeah the um yeah this is the one the letter from I mean the email from thank you so much yeah to be you want to get copy um or this is what so you I have let me see if attorney yeah it's what Tom Decker yeah so it's this page and then this P you have the same thing right yeah yeah yeah yeah do you want to go cop make those sure that's great do you mind use the copy ma don't know where it is oh well I can I can do it all right um why don't you pass these out oh okay the three copies and um I'll do this I should sent this time but oober so let's [Music] [Music] see so do you have like a let me I do it um yeah that's what I to they said and then that sinks with this okay this is the correspondence between me and Denise and she consulted the attorney about the new ordinance this is yours okay and um okay so I I thought we had this the one time me started yeah we did because I passed I've definitely distributed this before or I had scalp to it at some point so this CD I don't have the staple here but here's one copy there's a copy and sorry goes like this I know it's confused now I have it okay so here's the copy of the correspond from the notes from the attorney where he includes um and I got another one oh you had it because you both okay okay so I did not have a chance to compare this final model with version two did you have any time to do that Jackie the final um yes I did model against version two because we this is the third and final version that we've been working with from um okay so do you want to start what the one I just distributed is the final model ordinance from the state that's their final this is due May 1st it needs to be passed and um and in addition what I just handed out now are Denise's notes um and those from the township attorney regarding well goe go ahead Jackie the mitigation of storm water run offer issues um such as soil erosion they added pollution reduction infiltration quality reduction and thermal effects and then it says this ordinance is intended to ensure the permittees are considering these undervalued Assets in their storm water management efforts so that was added you know to make it clear and um the next paragraph also if you want to just read that to yourself uh in the second paragraph in the second paragraph it is the case that the township is the permit T in this case is that correct okay yes yeah at a at a minimum to adopt and of course this ordinance uh all right so then um then let's see on that page that's old that was new uh on the next on page two then uh you have a b and then C for the diameter at the breast pipe um they added at the very the last sentence there for species of trees where the main trunk divides below the 4 and a half foot height and the dbh shall be measured at the highest point before any division that was added that last sentence for C and also the last sentence in D municipalities may choose to require license tree ex expert to make the um all Hazard tree termination and then uh where it has one two three four five on page two on number five um the original one just had LTE but they filled it they also wrote it fully licensed treat expert parentheses LTE so you know what their abbreviation is and that's what um our like Captain you explained to me that's what when Jerry get someone to take care of our trees they're licensed Tree Experts all trees any you work DPW Rangers for they do the same thing that we do which is they meet with a licensed Arbus and they consult on the tree to go down is that helpful to have this if you're talking yes okay okay uh then on page three okay for G um the first sentence residence means an individual who resides as the on the residential property and they added or contractor hired by the individual who resides on the residential property these are good improvements so far actually all are very good clarifying thank you for doing the comparison are we still on page three no now I'm turning to page four okay um under B they have one and two and then they have a whole paragraph in Darker of print and at the last sentence um it says the list shall up shall also contain approved planning Time seasons and proper planning standard procedures and they added or a reference to available literature containing this information I believe that's what we would do yes definitely yeah forhead so I thought that was you know they're just they've tweaked it a lot so nothing on page five and the only thing I noticed on page six they have a section five and two sections three but this um after the violation that's I'm sorry say that again on page six they have the um Roman numerals and they missed they messed up um servility one that should be V that should be seven they have eight and eight for effective date oh I see thank you yes that correction that's a seven that's a good one so that's section seven not corre that VI going back to page two there is a typo there oh other typ yeah in the middle of the page under D expert expert expect expect expert yeah that would not be in there we would have to put name no that is the name L Tre expert I mean that's the that's the the the genetic generic description um yeah that's not that's not a specific person right because we can't have any specific right is that it yeah that's it so why don't we now compare the attorney's comments to the appropriate sections to see where we get with that so um on I didn't number these Pages I'm sorry but on the first page that says copy two at the top of it up on the top um that these are Tom Decker's notes he's the town oh oh I'm sorry no no this is the um the attorneys the attorneys the attorneys yeah I saw okay so this this link takes us toel prepare needs to be individualized okay right um model owners must be adopted by every okay that's these are just the terms so that's correct correct there's one actually is comments we're not there yet in terms of Street trees here's the conflicts the model ordinance conflicts with and needs to be reconciled with the existing shade tree ordinance in repeat that I'm sorry in terms of Street trees the model ordinance conflicts with and needs to be recycled with the existing shade tree ordinance in three areas fines for violations in the process of levying fines and that's a question we have for the township so that's one where it conflicts the second is the requirements for replacement trees right because that hasn't we need to establish that and then the third is the definition of DBA measured from Grand level versus measured from the downhill side uh I guess we need to look at oh and he does enclose the piece their ordinance where the conflict occurs so let's see where is that so 4110 um let's look for the cbh May okay in the bottom of page two he put it in bold and underline diameter at breast height shall mean the diameter of the tree taken at a point 4.5 fet above ground level and I and the definition in the ordinance is is um measured from the downhill side and that's something we were talking about at the shry Federation because we we thought that was good to note that to qualify it like that from the uphill side on on the ordinance it says on page two of the ordinance letter C definition C for diameter at rest height huh for species of sorry so why did he put then why did the lawyer put the downhill side we say stay downhill side I mean our current ordinance does I think it was the original ordinance said that oh I'm sorry that's correct I'm sorry because see I'm sorry all the I I should have given you caveat all of these attorneys comments are on the original ordinance and yes they may not apply because the ordinances have been improved in the final copy so where so that's where in the final ordinance page two page two the definition page 2 C and it did say because that's something I think weal that's one of the things we talked about at the sh tree conference it did say they had it up they had it downhill oh jeez I'm sorry now I'm getting mixed up they originally had it on the downhill side and now they've changed it to the uphill side uphill side but they also say if the well Tre on a slope only if it's on a slope there aren't that many trees even that would this would apply to at least for us and then they qualify it for species of trees where the main trunk divides you know codominant leaders below the four and a half foot height the DBS shall be measured at the highest point before any Division and that's really interesting yes because the division Could Happen three feet above ground or whatever but anyway it's important to note um so we would want so the change here would be the definition of um DBA we would include we would have to change our ordinance to say the uphill side well okay so if we adopt the model ordinance right it's if the definition is in there so we would couldn't we just modify right if we adopt the model ordinance that has a definition of dbh um we can sync our existing our existing legislation just either by removing the definition of dbh that's in there or the lawyer that well I don't see I don't understand how it actually works with adopting ordinance because it'll be folded into I believe it'll be folded we'll let the attorney do that I'm not sure how how if this is now a separate ordinance then the free remov replacement but it does have to um align with our ordinance and it would have to be changed you can't say one thing in the new ordinance and something in the old ordinance because dbh the dbh where we take the dbh has to be established so right so we either have to amend the old ordinance or just say that the new ordinance super supersedes right the yeah but the new ordinance only applies to tree replacement and removal not the rest of our sh Tre ordinance no but it would but for example like uh so statute 40 so 4110 penalty jurisdiction of Courts Etc we either update it or replace it with something new I I don't disagree that this is a lawyer question by the way I but it just seems to me that those are the kind of the choices either like the new ordinance we could adopt an ordinance that Updates this and then just say the new ordinance supersedes we're adopting this new or ordinance and and we're also getting rid of yeah well the question is the question is yeah how do we adopt it so that it fits with the current ordinance um right right here there's all the there is the uh you know prescribed fine for violation of ordinances and it's you know so that nothing when we talk about the fees won't go above 1500 I don't you know that um but so I think it has to get incorporated into this I think we can do it either way I mean I I don't I honestly don't know I think we need to go through what we're doing and make note of what we what's different between just the lawyers notes just what we want to include in this ordinance from from this example that we have so right now the only so so far the only conflict we' found is the dbh measuring from the uphill side um but but we will have to change to do that because we want to adopt this because this what we're being told to do so it appears under c um near the bottom for purpos of the SE diameter breast height and this section is about removal of trees so all right so the next point and then um and that's it uh actually hold on let me see CD that's all that was brought to light am I I'm not missing anything right that's the only thing that was that one little change um well no we have to do the um requirements for replacement of trees and also the right that would be the that would be the second thing right so the three things that are in Conflict are are one um the fines for violations the fines two the requirements for replacement trees right and three changing the definition of DBA right and so we know well we can we know what the new definition is because it's presented in the ordinance right in terms of requirements for replacement trees um we need to pull that out of the new ordinance right or do we just um and we can't go forward with any fees or until the township I mean what we do know is there's a limit of $1,500 to any fees and I don't know if that includes fines or is that that's penalty fees actually isn't it that's not yes so for violation not permits but for violations and the other question is where does that money go let's read in other townships it goes back into the pool for um for planting for yes and that is the other question I put to the township if there are fines and permit fees T sh Tre would like the funds to go into the pool for Fe for trees which is what you just said what you said Jessica yeah so but again it's up to the township we don't know right we can make recommendations but while we're looking at 4110 why don't we just read through each of these so we're clear what exists since this is right here so um but we have to look at 4167 what we have now cost of trees and improvements change charge where are you lean on properties exception Sor the existing ordinance are you talking about but what page you want so we're looking at part part of the existing ordinance I I have a copy of the whole ordinance does anybody else have a cop yeah it's the Comm oh yeah I'm sorry so I'm looking at the old ordinance so [Music] um are we the only two that have a copy of this today all right this I printed it out off line okay so I'm sorry just how page you are in many far on page 48 okay so 48 416 we have to look at uh I'm sorry what page you on Bonnie 48 48 okay and you're looking 4110 okay um 416 cost of trees and improvements charge and lean on property exception don't we read it out loud then since because not everybody has a copy so might up online okay so acceptance here and after provided the initial cost of all trees planted by the commission the cost of planting the same the cost of posts and boxes or guards used for the protection thereof and the cost of the removal of any tree or part thereof dangerous to Public Safety shall if the commission shall so determine in accordance with uniform rules and regulations promulgated for this purpose be a charge upon the real estate in front of which such tree or trees shall be planted or removed as an improvement thereof such cost if it is so determined that it is to be paid by the owner shall unless paid directly to the commission be certified by it the commission by certified by it I guess by the commission to The Collector of taxes of the township cranberry shall thereupon become and be a lean upon said Real Estate shall be included in the next tax bill rendered to the owner or owners thereof and be collected in the same manner as other leans against that property so I'm sorry I'm not clear on on in my first the first house Ken and I bought um there was a lean on the sidewalk you know they the homeowners have to take care of the sidewalks and so there were you know they were trying the the previous homeowner was trying to pass that lean onto us so that's a common thing to do uh way to do it but the um ordinance deals with it totally different the uh recommended you know how to deal with the costs and everything else and we've never uh as far as I know cranberry has [Music] never uh put imposed it yeah on anyone a lot of this is just that's why I think uh we're better off looking at the recommended ordinance that we have version three yes and let the attorney decide how to reward right so for instance whether to make it an just an amendment or uh is it clear to anyone if the state is requiring that we have a separate ordinance ordinance for Tre remove replacement or just that this be included in our ordinance or or they want a separate tree removal replacement ordinance that's is that what's being required if we don't I mean I think we sort of have some for instance we do have here's in terms of where would the um where would the disposition of the penalty money go all money is 4111 on page 49 all money is collected either as fines or penalties and see again none of this is permit money I'm not sure um for any violation of a rule of regulation of a shade tree commission enacted by ordinance or as a change excuse me or as a charge against Real Estate under any provision of this chapter shall be forth withth paid over to the custodian of the municipal funds right yes so that doesn't sound like it goes into the Shad refunds or just go to the custodian it it just doesn't it's basically say goes back to the treasure it's just not specific and that's what the current ordinance is um the current ordinance that's what I just read is the current ordinance yeah it just goes It goes to the cust in other Municipal funds meaning then they place it where so if we wanted to direct that money tree planting modified yeah yeah so there's all these things or it could be done possibly it could just be done through the annual budget in terms of allocating in as an allocation annually but that would have to be approved on a regular basis so it seems to me the next step is you either meet with the lawyer or there's some back and forth because I'm not sure how to proceed to be honest I don't know um and I can't I'm not able really to provide Direction uphill or downhill on in our ordinance it just says four feet above right and that's why we what then we we want to change it to uphill I don't think it's unusual to change ordinances you know especially one that's been you know that's so old uh and it's a matter of do we change it um to to match what we want to do now or or just amend amend the one we have yeah maybe we tell the lawyer what we want to have happen and and I think we need just tell the attorney what we want to have happen and let him decide how to go about doing it we can meet with him you know you knowbly I don't know that first send right we we need to First decide what we want and then show it to the um share it with the township committee and then they can decide um you know they'll have to talk to us too we have to get everyone on board with this uh same with the you mean like a subcommittee no no I mean we we're going to talk about what we want from this um ordinance the suggested ordinance version three can we go back to this C it says it talks about are you in the charging she's ininal 27 $27 per square inch so it talks about I guess a penalty when you say see uh where are you page 49 of the current coordinates okay section 4 110 subsection C okay so Jack are you saying that we take go through this current ordinance right and then tell them how we want to change it no hours no I don't think we I I I think first we want to go through um I thought we should go through the um suggested replacement ordinance version three not the one we have the one that's um present it to us but we'll have to tell the lawyer where it needs to change within our ordinance so in other words we have to well don't we first want to decide what we want out of this and then well as we compare it to our current ordinance yeah and then say well we really would want um the dbh to say at on the uphills what is it Anyway the uphill side is that the final thing the uphill side um and that and and that is addressed like that we'd have to refer to that change where it is in our ordinance you I'm saying right yeah but if we don't compare them we won't know whether we need to change it or not so um what will change of course is all of this like this is a whole new this is a new purpose which is why yeah see I just don't understand because it conflicts with our current ordinance I I'm not clear I mean I don't think you can say this ordinance sounds super proes the other other ordinance has to be the right way or the wrong way so that's and I'm not clear how we do that you you can have that but you can also add and and modify specific sections yeah we can add we can add um okay so your concern is like do we have something that is called the TR tree removal replacement ordinance no but we do have sections we have sections regarding tree removal replacement right but we don't have anything that is as you said a tree removal because this is requiring that there be a replacement every time there's a removal and then there's the conditions for that you know um this suggest although I think it was is it not suggesting here you know with if you remove so many you have to replace it with so many that's in here right so we have to compare that to see what we say now because there because we don't have a tree replacement ordinance we do have some things regarding removal um this is and replacement but it is very confusing I feel like we could you know when I've seen things like this before like and in terms of how the you could have an ordinance um as part of that ordinance you repeal or amend specific sections or languages of existing legislation so like the ordinance itself is saying you know um the ordinance you can you can replace an old a complete statute or you can the ordinance can specify which parts of the statute are added to or amended removed so like I think you could call This And how that langu how that actually works in the vehicle for that is a lawyer question um what's important I think is for us to know what it is that we want to have happen um but it is complicated because there is so much that it's already in existence I don't think he looked at our whole ordinance because six 10 yeah 11 has to all be changed in our current ordinance 6 101 you got to give me page numbers I I feel like we haven't even implemented you know we don't really we don't have a way of implementing half of this so the whole purpose of this new ordinance or I I keep calling it The suggested new ordinance is a model for us how to implement protecting the trees okay so we'll go through the new ordinance the model and choose to or not to uh fold them into or create a new ordinance but it it is important to know where the conflicts are right and Bonnie is suggesting that the attorney didn't read through all of our ordinance compared to the model but remember he had an earlier model too so he didn't look at the model we're looking at which is the final he was just looking at penalty and I think he needs to also look at do you see other well let's go through the model ordinance and and then we'll then we can see where it can Flex or can because we'll have to be clear about that so we've already read um sort of the mission of the ordinance Jackie read that as well as [Music] um and this is just an explanation really the next thing and then purpose one so let we'll just see if we agree with everything in here and then go from there uh and then in terms of the fees you know some kind of a fee schedule Penny schedule whether permit fees we'll have to visit that lastly make the suggestion and the township agrees or doesn't agree is that what you're saying kind of sort of yeah I think we do maybe do can we just go through the model ordinance then that's I'd like to do think right yeah so on page one section one the purpose uh Jackie pointed out how they had updated that I think that's the one the um infil so that's great um um let's see next thing is in Brackets okay so this says you can continue to follow our established farsy program requirements provided that our creditor program addresses tree removal and replacement so I believe it does right doesn't do we need to do on page one municipalities with an existing tree ordinance may contact the department of storm water manager to determine if their ordinance requires modification we know it requires modification I'm sorry you're saying it our ordinance doesn't our current ordinance requires modification this whole uh this whole um storm water uh thing is is this is a new requirement to involve the um right and so it's it's do we want to do we're trying to protect our trees and we what we have in our regular ordinance we don't have a way set to to um enforce it so I think the whole we should take whatever we can out of this to uh figure out how we can enforce it and like this the first step like is just to get a permit you know I I've looked into other towns and talk you know on webinars too and heard what other towns are doing and some towns do a lot and some towns haven't done anything but most towns in our area that are doing something um for a permit they charge $35 or $40 for a permit and I think that's a starting point for us but you know just to get a permits who's going to take care of it all of that that's right you know we have a lot to to figure out and and it's not just on us we need the township to buy into this and any other um Commissioners especially like the environmental commission so we need to like make a a not only a wish list but a you know a list of what we feel a town like cranberry for our individual Town not comparing it to you know we can see what other towns are doing but um what would help us in our goal to keep um you know to help our trees right so again I'm not sure exactly how this works in terms of putting together the language that has to be acted on by the township committee but this does make I I'm reading this paragraph again the details of a municipality's forestry program shall be incorpor at by reference or contained within the municipality's adopted ordinance it does sound to me like they really need us to have this ordinance yeah yeah we but like it cannot be just well we've already we already have something in place that meets that checks off the boxes right well what we have doesn't check off the boxes that's why we have to do this but even if we did I it almost sounds like they need something a little bit more but but that's where like the language like we can have language or lawyer can add language as needed that sort of puts existing statute underneath the umbrella of this ordinance either includes it or amends it accordingly I think that's what it's it's yeah our accredited program which is what we work on and you know it's accredited because of this and because we fill all the requirements um needs to include needs to address tree removal and replacement and currently it does not all right so at least we accomplished that much that we agree that because I was beginning to wonder if if we all felt that way yeah I was kind of wondering do you have to do something do you really have to do something do you have to take action as Township if you've like already got all of this covered and I'm getting the sense no if you have it all covered if you already have a um a removal and replacement clause or you know section in your um ordinance you don't have if you already um andin but but if you don't have it like very and we don't yeah then yeah we need to do we need to do something and May 1 is the deadline and backing that up because it is an ordinance related there has to be more than one reading of it before um I think we backed it up we only have like not even a month to get something um but you know I well we let's go through this and see what we agree or don't disagree with but we do have to have attorney input to move things along because I don't know if it just gets gets inserted get or it's or if it's a inserted by reference mean and and if if there's contradictions how do we change how do we fix the contradictions do we amend the law needs to tell us how to do that do we amend uh we just change the language on the original ordinance I don't there's I don't know how that works so um okay so uh details what you just read contact to obtain further regarding yes and we we we are accredited and we would like to stay accredited and we're looking at the associated requirements to do that um um now it's true um there was a place to reach out to storm waterer manager at D to determine if ordinance requires modification but I think we have determined that it does require modification and also that there was only one person doing that and they they were overwhelmed which we were told a few times um that you could reach out but you may not be able to get help um which is why we're doing this so section two definitions I think we go from there so we definitely need the critical root radius and the diameter and um Hazard tree you know it's it's simplified but clarified the wording for us and I think do you agree so we're at so so now I'm sorry so now you're reviewing a through D is that correct why don't we just start with a I mean let's just do yeah I mean I just finished the introductory paragraph and um you know we did do this with the with one of the other models we went through but let's just go again to to agree because there have been changes instead of going back to so with a uh does everyone agree B yes sure everybody yes I don't want to um C we do have there's the I've underlined so there's a change required here well if I could say I would say we don't need to change the model ordinance we should direct the lawyer to make sure that oh no we're not changing the model or we're going to change our existing okay right because that's the one that's in con conflict and we agree that it it um that 4 and a half ft above the ground level on the uphill side makes sense right right everyone agrees with that they changed the model from downhill to uphill right and there is no downhill in our ordinance it just says no that's but okay so it's about it's it's it's all very um the whole purpose is in case that the a tree wasn't on level ground you have to um establish a standard a standard and so fine yeah it's easier to measure it from the upside than the downside well there's that maybe that's why they decided to do that I can't I know there was some discussion so I would just say for for for um section c that we we just tell the lawyer like as as he's already noticed that we want the model ordinance we want to adopt the model ordinance language and that that should supersede or well in this whatever we need to do but we have to make right well that's what we're going through now to make sure we agree with all the model ordinance definitions and then we that's what we would say we want to agree I would say for this if the if the state has developed a standard I would strongly urge just using that absolutely that's and that's a change or a conflict with our current ordinance that's on that that the dbh is addressed and defined but it doesn't agree with that definition and I was just going to say if we want to be specific is specifically in conflict with Section 4110 subsection c yeah and he already pointed it out so he didn't give the specifics of where it is that's the only place I found where where did you find it it's in our existing ordinance he did he did give the specific he he bolded it and he underlined it he gave the ver of where the conflict was oh just in the down below great so yeah that just needs to be either removed or so he so he indicated should be able to figure that out yeah well yes because we don't know can you just change that and then how do you make no yeah yeah okay so it needs to be updated however however that's done legally um I'm on D now and then you'll have to read 1 through five are we all in agreement yes it looks like there is a decision to be made municipalities may choose to require licensed tree expert to make all Hazard tree determinations do we want to do that they're not automatically adding that language um well because it was in pen and we always do use an LTE um and I mean sometimes it's just dead and that's you know it's I think it's more foregone conclusion that the Tre go ahead I I think it's more there to uh protect a tree that isn't hazardous but uh some homeowner will say it's hazardous and wants it down I think that it sounds like there so they didn't make it part of the model ordinance but my guess is other towns have something in as a just to yeah protect people from trying protect from from home homeowners or land owners trying to get around right but then it calls into question does this ordinance reach into the homeowner's property and the township has not we don't have their input are we because we may just be talking about Street trees that are you know in front of people's homes but the big question here is are we talking what how far does the ordinance reach for removal replacement and we don't know so so if it reached into to private land then we would have to do that because we would need to um we would need them we would need to require that they get an LTE saying it's a a hazardous tree and and that's who takes down the trees that that so far we um the the DPW hires in a license tree expert well this would go down at their if it's a homeowner it would go down at their expense but we would still require that they don't take it down that's been determined by an LTE that it is actually a hazard so but it's so whether we put this in or not really is determined by whether we're dealing with all trees in the municipality which we have control over anyway or if we're reaching or if we're um wanting to help homeowners be more responsible about protecting the canopy by not taking down a tree that isn't a hazard tree and I had an examp and this is the criteria which we agree with one through five right I had an example yeah I had an example in my community where someone declared the tree on their property as hazardous and they agreed that it was their property and we don't deal with trees the HOA and unless just say property owner there's a lot of prop I mean there are a lot of properties that have businesses or not all residents but um or the land owner so that so I think that has to be Revisited depending on whether we're where we're requiring the replacement trees it it's just I'm wondering if it's the question is is whether or not we so the qu like this whole thing may or may not apply to non shade trees like homeowner homeowner properties that aren't Street trees right right so to me the question seems like for for those trees that we are applying this to do we want the determin of Hazard Hazard tree to be made by a oh it always is it always is unless it's um I mean yes it we always have an arborous come out then I think that what this is suggesting the language from the state it's suggesting that we might want to make that explicit if that's our intention so for example at the end of the first line in D we might say as determined by an a license tree expert well or we could ask the lawyer if that would make sense well I think only need to be in there if we're going to if it's going to include homeowners because right now the way it works with DPW and Shad Tre is sometimes the determination is made by the DPW directly or occasionally by shry be because it has a you know one whole liter is dead or something it's clearly hazardous you know it's what's what's what I'm trying to say it's um self-evident that the tree is a hazard and so we don't we won't always pay to have a license Arbor certain conditions if there are questions about the health tree and whether it is hazardous that's when we do it but when it's very when it's self evident that's that it's Hazard DPW or Endor shade tree will call to have it removed or you know remedied mitigated so that's why I hesitate putting it in there um because we already do some of that work ourselves but for residents we want them to require because they're not they don't um so for work not being done directly by the township correct that might we might want that's when we would want but we don't know if we're even going that far that's right but I feel like the township when they you know if if like we suggest they take down or you know the DPW suggests they take down a tree wouldn't this licensed tree expert that the township has hired before they take the tree down say well actually it's not well if we had one yes if we have a consultant available yes is it would go to them but Public Works is not used right now yeah okay is sort to explain so a resident calls they say they they don't they think the tree is a hazard um it doesn't come down and there's not action unless an arborus has looked at the tree because quotes are always needed prior to removal and work and so the arborist is inspecting the tree I don't know how to explain it better than that so we are actually requiring well no there's another there's no language that says it's required it's just done but it is done I mean if it's done so I would be in favor of adding this language um even if it because especially if it's not already if it's just being if it's done but it's just being done by practice why not make it a requirement I mean well this is you may be comfortable in the practice right now but it it does give guidance to Future operators I don't see what the harm is if we're already doing it why not make it a requirement see to have someone come out just it would I G explain this maybe do you know what I'm trying to say well you know I just read it again and the second sentence trees that do not meet any of the below criteria are proposed to be and are proposed to be removed solely for development purposes are not hazardous trees um so they're talking about trees that um aren't hazardous under these things and we had a tree recently that uh within our own community that uh someone needed to take down it was a healthy tree I talked about it and um they wanted to replace it with a number of evergreen trees to block their view of common the new you know interesting thing and so we decided since he was going to replace that tree with evergreen trees we made an exception that allowed him to take and he paid for it to take this huge tree down down that wasn't blocking uh but an arborus never deemed the tree hazardous is that what you're saying no it was obvious it wasn't hazardous so again but that's I'm just saying these situations come yeah no I understand yeah they do they do come up all kinds of tree situations come up but my point is that if we put this in here and we're for us um meaning shat Tre so many I mean there's a lot of tree inquiries I can't call an arborist every time to come out because we don't have an agreement with any arborist I can have arborist like tbw to come out to look at the tree before the work is done and at that point um because you because I I'm not taking down the trees myself and dpws and they're always Contracting an arborist but I don't have an arborist at will to come and look at every tree with me or DPW when there's a complaint so some things are self-evident so I hesitate to put it in there when it's DPW and shade Tre um uh who as I say sometimes it is dead or dying that's self-evident we don't need to um have an arbor come out to do that um and so I think I I think it's really in here if the ordinance also applies to um private property that's my opinion I think if we're and it's not necessary if we're not going to be requiring anything of the homeowners and we may going to do anything with private property toally the ordinance right it's almost irrelevant that's exactly right because we already are very careful the trees in the public right away because that's our that's our job we're not going to charge a fee to ourselves to plant a tree I mean the whole thing IR relevant right well and and fortunately we don't have input from the township committee at this point so that's question the question is do we send an email to Barbara that says we cannot proceed unless we know whether these things whether the township um supports these changes or not one change being the ordinance will apply to home um what do I want to say Property Owners if if we do if it does apply to Property Owners then do we want to add language that that license okay absolutely so why don't could we just flag it and and with that note that if it if it does yeah depending on which way it goes absolutely if it if it if we're going to have fees or permit fees or fines then they then the um property will have to have an LTE make an Hazard determination before removal and they'll also have to submit a permit like all of that is tied up together the other thing is that if we're only talking about Street trees to have someone say they have to get a permit only if they want to put in a tree I mean we're not getting permits ourselves for putting in trees no because we have jurisdiction over all the RO W trees so it's right this is I see your point yeah this is more for really a lot of this is to protect the trees that are on the individual property it's to protect exactly us from losing our canopy by people willingly taking down trees because they because they're dirty yeah right so are you saying we should we need to find pause and get some input before we go through this this whole ordinance right well I think I think we can keep going I would say but this but I would the note would be like that if we yeah versus if we we would want to have a licensed tree expert absolutely if if if we are actually going to include private property and and included in that would be um you know if they're going to required to do that then they will also have to have um you know apply for a permit right for the removal of that tree or actually I'm sorry and other towns are doing that other towns are doing this yeah all towns yeah but it's not up to us I think other towns we have to decide I think for other towns it means all the trees on their property not necessarily the little Street trees that we're talking about right and that yeah okay so should we just continue to go through this and certainly it's one way if it's right of way only and it's another way we'll need more yeah um a a more specific ordinance if it applies to residences because we already follow all these practices like the like years ago the um um Bobby and Frank took down street trees and they put in the they put in a couple trees now to charge them would not be fair I mean we could have put the trees in and not you know I mean if they would be charged yeah and yeah permit and then paying for the tree and putting it in yeah and so we can go through all those different scenarios and and there's a lot of them regarding they want the tree down because it's in bad health and they will replace the tree and they also know they need to coordinate with J Tre regarding size and species but yeah so I'm I I would expect actually that the township will not want this to reach into will not cover residents but just the public right away but again just we don't know but let's just go through because we do have five or eight more pages um and we don't I don't want to keep you guys here all day just to go through and there will be it'll be one way or the other but I think we can get through it quickly once we if we get it just we keep getting hung up because there's so many unknowns and we feel like we can't move forward but we will have to but but before we close the meeting this work session we will um prepare what I want to uh ask Barbara to do at the next meeting and maybe one of us has to be there there if we can get on the agenda to say we can't this is the time it's February now we have to know and then they could maybe two weeks later get back to us and they'll have to work it out which would put us at February let's see 12 26 that would put us on the 26th if they could get back to us by then and then we have a quick time very short time to get it together so it can start to be you know then to deal with the lawyer because we can't see the lawyer until we know what township wants exactly does that make sense to everybody yeah yeah okay so we're on E is that correct Jessica yeah okay okay so I I agree with that I'm okay with F everybody if you planting strip y so we're on page three now n g are they making the contractor respons also yes either the resident who resides or the contract are hired by that Resident to if if the trees are regulated by this or and there's the question are those trees reg by this or or not we don't know so it depends yeah but some people will hire a contractor to take down the our State Street trees without permission in the past but in in that case this ordinance covers them that's the right way and we have jurisdiction jurisdic so it's important just to point out that the dbh is not the same thing as caler by the way so make that I love K because um improper grading but soil compaction within the CR critical root radius that's going on you know people are putting they don't like mulch so they put down rocks instead of mulch around the tree yeah like Judy I've told her and other people I've told her are we at section three no oh K on page three oh yes that was a good K is good all right so yeah they're talking about Street trees here are you talking about Section 3 a 3 a yeah okay I'm just getting there now to 3A so we let's get through a which just continued on to the next we'll get through A and B so we're good we're good all the way through Section K I believe that is correct and now we're reading um the regulated activities section A which is continued on page four so a makes it depend on what we're doing because it says or any Nonet tree again so so a we have to alter a depending on what the T so we'll continue to read through and presume and just as if it was both and then we'll just have to eliminate non Street trees um when we when it's determined okay can I just go so section one so a A1 where um uh it says okay any Street tree with dbh of 2.5 inches or more or any non Street tree with dbh of 6 in or more this is where we're getting into PR that's where we're getting into whether the regul ations go that far got it the same thing with b and and currently excuse me I'm still on one for the large larger scale clearing projects I believe this is done now for the planning board that um a Tre some kind of a Tre survey usually comes in with the plans they indicate which trees they will be removing um and so I think we'll get back to that it's a it's okay okay so I'm sorry when I say how in terms of the regulations where they extend do they will they extend beyond rw2 a residents B commercial properties that's that that's all part of it so because commercial property is separate from residents actually right see um and so because because it may because one thing that was discussed at the November 27th meeting is maybe it doesn't regulate private property but it does regulate commercial property commercial property and that's something that the township needs to consider because maybe they would go with that yeah def so and then the true replacement requirements just is all is so just to be clear the the way this is written doesn't make the distinction between resident that's correct um commercial or well well it does it does make a distinction between right of way and commercial or non non right of non-public [Music] um but a person is just is as as a as a resident a company a person is um individual resident right Corporation utility company partnership F Association right okay and actually most people you know don't deal with their trees unless they're a danger you know unless the majority of people on their own property you know if they have a tree they just leave it alone or they might trim it or prune it have it pruned but um they don't take it down because it cost so much money right unless you know the majority of them you right y I have comments on uh what follows to when we're all there before we get to replacement tree shell you guys ready for me to comment on this section below B yes so appendix a it would be our list of recommended trees and this is suggesting that included with the um would be the um approved planting Time seasons and proper planning stand I think we wouldn't actually lay that all out in our Excel sheet but we would have we would Point them to a resource to use whether that's orb Day Foundation or something that's very specific or Penn State so that that that they can look it up there about approved planting Time seasons and proper planting you know um because some of that does exist already as resource stuff on our web page so we would go with the option of referencing available I think so yes with for those details yes I don't think we need to do that's a lot of work to put that um yeah and a lot to maintain exactly and the reference will be up you know will always be updated so the meeting in the webinars do they give any examples of what a good reference would be I guess there's something just out there like like you could reference yeah yeah um well it would be the ARB Day Foundation most likely and or um you know one of the uh embedded sites um Penn State which has you know something like that that has recommendations for one to plant trees you'd have to look into that we that would be something we would have to work on is making sure we um which Jessica has worked on extensively updating the website actually a few years ago so sort of go back to that place where okay what are the best references here that will included in this appendix and and we used them when we bought when we the township paid for a lot of trees to replace the um ones in Four Seasons what were they the I can't think of the ash trees in Four Season we we referred so now I'm reading uh the the requirements for a replacement tree and we would have to I guess um that number one you know um we can't do that we you know we want them to put in a small tree you know you can't well we we develop our own tree replacement requirements table but certainly if they take out a tree with the dbh of 30 we're not going to require that I mean we would want it to reach immaturity reach that kind of dbh but we're not going to plan a dbh so this is that this this doesn't really make that much sense to me but what are your one under replacement tree shell saying that it should have an equal or greater dbh than the tree removed or okay and this is where it's important our tree replacement criteria which we would have to develop and there is a sample here I I'm sorry which I AP I'm on page four oh okay okay and we're under on tree replacement requirements table and the various requirements right and then they would allow you to substitute like four trees for one larger one I would in that I think there there's a isn't there a computation for dbh yeah it's like depending on the dbh and then right and then determined and then determine appr the yeah so we can look at that I haven't look gotten to the table yet I'm just reading these two things because they're requiring um that it be planted within 12 months of removal um but also there's flexibility or or an alternative date specified by the municipality it needs to be monitored by the applicant for a period of two years to ensure survival that is important and are replaced as needed within 12 months and shall not be planted in temporary containers or pots as they do not count toward your replacement requirements that's all key yeah I think just for number one we should just cross out the beginning of that first sentence and just say tree replacement criteria meet the yeah have to so that's what I'm looking at now is the tree replacement requirements table well if you that makes so yeah I see what you're saying want to so the criteria don't give you the option like if you have 13 in oh I see I'm sorry this explains better have a 5 in dbh you could replace it with a tree with a 5 in dbh that's going to be a lot harder to yeah but but actually but like you could do but our ordinance well okay so the ordinance for planting again this is Street trees okay um is you wouldn't yeah see it's complicated because someone might be redoing their big property and they're going to get a five uh a um a 5-inch caliber tree or something right and you know but wouldn't recommend we wouldn't plant those because we only go up to two and a half basically because they don't take very well the bigger trees but um let's just look at the table if someone for removal a minimum caliper it doesn't say you can't put a bigger one in that's true but we recommend yes yes but sorry so if if someone takes out a dbh of and remember we're looking at dbh and we're looking at calber dbh in the First Column and caliper in the second column so the dbh and I don't have a caliper but I guess I should buy one um so if a dbh is two and a half or six for non Street then do do we agree with the replanting would be one tree with a minimum calber of one and a half inches for each tree removed does that make sense to everyone maybe should go through this one at a time I don't have any knowledge that to bring to bear to override what they've La out here well I think the minimum caliber of one and a half works you certainly wouldn't want to go I would worry about planting trying to to bit too big yeah well so um I guess we'll get back to that like the question is do we have a maximum I don't know that because look they requiring to keep it alive for 12 months well it would be I meaner the treat them more expensive oh yeah and I don't think I don't think we going to come it's going to come into play too often unless someone was doing you know a really um expensive um tree planting because you know that that's usually done at corporations where they plant or or um right so we just have to decide so we have to look at one two three and four and see if all those replants make sense and then in terms of um the fees well we don't know yet so that's the question but it seems reasonable to me one two three or four trees to replace the trees being taken out that makes sense and then replacement Alternatives below C also if you if you look forward you know this doesn't um include hazardous trees well what does what do you say hazardous trees may be removed with no Fe or replacement requirement right here it says that the fee the replacement Alternatives of fee will be placed in a fund dedicated to tree planting and continued maintenance of tre main yeah and I I I I we should have yes I think that it's important for us to convey to the township that any permits fees fines that all of that shall be placed in a fund dedicated to tree planting and continued mainten right otherwise it makes no sense to charge the fees and fines to me um which means that 41 in our current ordinance has to be changed 41 disposition of penalties okay what page just let me okay well you're making make a note of that please Bonnie um dispensation oh yeah yep well that's yeah section section and we and we and that yes that would have to be changed y so that's import that's important to note y yeah okay um so are we up to on page five section four exemptions someone ask someone's going to have to keep track of this God that's the purpose of having a charge for the permit well the fact is that there is no one to enforce this because it has to be Municipal official not a volunteer and because I I just what I've seen happening with staff is there is no one to reforce it and so the question would be if we have a part-time consultant Arbor does that person enforce it like that I'm just no I don't someone's not going to it says the number of trees removed is a rolling count across a fiveyear period so someone has to keep a Sprint sheeet that's right based on the um uh presumably that would be based on permits correct this is where permits come into play it's an honor System and uh we need to educ you know we'll have to educate the public about it too but you know nothing's perfect but this is moving in the correct direction direction and again I can personally have an experience where I sold a property and they took all of the trees down well that's the kind of thing that so if if if if the community was educated even if those people did that there might be a tattletail in the neighborhood and I don't believe in being a tattletail but you know we're trying to protect the trees trees here we got to be yeah so I don't I mean I think that this is like so we're not saying that you can't remove a tree on your property we're saying that you can't remove more than like so many basically an average of an roughly an average of one per year or anything greater than 33 inches we're not saying you can't remove a tree right we're just saying you can't remove multiples you know you can't remove too many at once or too many within a 5year period and you can't remove anything over 30 3 in in diameter so that would be it I mean that's seems reasonable yeah it does seem reasonable and if you have a larger property then you have more of an exemption because it's per acre right and Hazard fees may be removed with no fee or replacement requirement which is the most important thing and people do that now obviously because you have to remove azard um is is everyone up I'm at section five enforcement which we'll skip because we have no idea again violations and penalties this is all dependent upon so I don't and as well as severability so I don't know um I can't see the police I well that is all in question now the other thing is this um be okay so one thing that was suggested is um oh actually we're kind of through which is good this is where we are um one thing that was suggested I just lost my train of thought oh um the ordinance has to be passed by May 1 but it does not have to be in full force and effect at its adoption oh yes it does I'm sorry that's I'm saying the exact wrong thing I'm thinking of a different yes I'm sorry it does need to be infected right after its adoption I was thinking of it something else and I'm not sure what a different ordinance thing um so we could change it though no I don't think can and say um you know we we're adopting it and and and it takes effect in so many months after we get to educate it uh you educate the community about it I think they that there are other ordinances that need to be they're presented it I guess they are presented people have to come okay the first the first reading com second reading you can public comment comment public comment right but but you can't put down you know oh we'll give the six months for people to find out about it because there are other ordinances yeah that go into effect regularly that go into effect and but they don't give grace period you're right but okay well I I guess I think what Jackie is talking about is I think I remember at the shade tree conference they were saying that you have to pass it but it doesn't have to go into effect right away but I don't think cranberry ever doeses that is that what you're saying right yeah so it doesn't really make sense and in terms of yes educating the public well that'll be up to us and part of the public getting educated is to you know sign up for new the Township news the um the news and announcements and things and certainly it would be in there um just like that announcement regarding property taxes if you have a tenant on the property and you live with that kind of thing like um there I don't know I mean it will it will be publicized and it as required by law yeah so um the big thing is do they want to charge fees and the other thing is if it's not going to be enforced what's the sense of doing putting in so the questions are we have to enfor how far do regulations extend are there are there will it be [Music] fees uh permit fees and fines and who will who will Who will enforce when so we have a property maintenance ordinance that's been in effect now for maybe 10 years and there's no one to enforce it you mean the sidewalks cleaning that kind of thing no Property Maintenance Property Maintenance overall um you know the siding you know if you you have holes in your roof or whatever um but there's no one to enforce it but there is for electrical work or pling work this is how it's enforced if you see something and you write to Public Works and say in writing that this property needs to be then they'll enforce it other than that it won't be enforced so there is enforcement if there's a complaint from a resident regarding a property um but that's not that's not a good way to do it because then you have the tattling business and it's only if someone sees it or notices that they okay well I think primary enforcement would be through the permit process then there's a question of if someone doesn't does something without a permit that's more what you're getting at like what do we do but when a house goes on the market uh now you have to have proof of um certain things that you do on your house that you have to have the permits uh you know if you added um that's just Construction Construction right but but that's done now well what I'd like to get to because it's almost 12:30 is I'd like to get to the next step which is we need feedback from the township because I don't see the point sorry didn't have this on I then I'd like to talk about the next step which which is um approaching the township so um I will send an email to Barbara saying we can't move ahead until we have the Township's input on um extent of regulations U extent that's well it's a better word than that um how far the regulations go what what um what property it affects as well and then will there be um application fees and fines for not following the permanent application and will that be enforced otherwise we can't give it pass it on to the lawyer right and it does it include the whole property or just Street trees well right now it applies to all I mean it applies to all Street trees I mean our ordinance and and this one but but with street but but it's also important to have the replacement thing because residents do take Street trees down and don't replace them that happens to or they replace them with a non um with an unapproved with an unapproved excuse me unapproved dentist issue well anyway like um so uh so anyway so I will coordinate with Barbara and I um I guess I I don't know if one of us needs to be at the next yeah meeting I'll be there well you will be there I mean thank you um which is by the way I mean it seems to me that maybe we have to go and we have to address the township committee and not send it to Barber but say we plan to be at the next meeting which would be the 20 I'm sorry the 12th the 12th um I would have to ask uh the Township Clerk if we can uh give a report or something if we can be on if we can get on the agenda we need to do that so do you want me to go ask her yeah um okay if we can get on the agenda and then we just plan and we we have to and I'll let Barber no to to let the committee people know that we're going to be there and we we need input because it's been since it's been from November and actually the township committee didn't change there are no new members that need to be brought up to speech the same committee that we talked to in November so that's helpful so um let me see and I'll be right back um I have a feeling she's going to say not till the end of the month no talking e e okay I just talked to the township administrator and we can be added to the agenda on the 26 and I'll send a uh email to Debbie so that would be 7 o'clock Monday February 26 um and actually if somebody else maybe could take the lead but I'll help you prep for that meeting to get the feedback because it is my husband's birthday um it seems like a meal excuse but uh maybe I'll just work something out um okay so I will um communicate with Debbie and Barbara regarding getting feedback because Barbara will be able to bring it up at the 12th and then they'll still they'll have a couple of weeks so they'll be prepared to give us some answers on the 26th and then we'll need to schedule a work session immediately after so we can get this to the attorney does that make sense to everybody um so do you want to schedule the work session now while we're all here and then I can also give that [Music] to Jackie B to um to notice and all of that and it will be a work session just just just this and I I it'll probably be in the gorgo because it doesn't need to be filmed just recorded so um so what about let's see um that tues the the following day or Thursday the 29th we do kind of stick to Thursday so there's not a conflict with other meetings Thursday February 29th leap year day or whatever that is okay well if you want to do that that you can tell us about that so that would be 10:00 yes we'll see them Monday and then we'll meet Thursday for a work session at 10: or we could do it the next day Tuesday if you if you prefer I'm trying to avoid conflicts with the other meetings so this is 10: a.m. on Thursday the 29th um I'll get that approved and we'd like to be in the GGO and um we'll follow up and we'll know more anything else from anybody on this any suggestions or caveats or um comments before I Jin the meeting just so we are looking at big question since we are like back in page model ordinance are we um page five is that so page three Street Tre um or any non Street tree with dbh of six Ines or more in their property so so really is a question of do we extend this to homeowners um who are seeking to remove trees between six you know of six inches or more in D and to do it at a rate greater than like roughly one per year right yeah and we wanted to whether we we have to decide whether and but we want to also um make a difference between resident or commercial property and ask the township but in terms of but in terms of definition person means all of those things in terms of adopting a model ordinance it seems to me the main thing is here is this yes language right here or any will we include non Street trees with a dbh of six inches or more yeah that would um be the basic question right that is it does it include non Street and if it doesn't then that's it we don't there's no fees there's no I mean we we still would develop as part of this ordinance um gu there still would be an ordinance to replace but there could be you could have everything in place it just wouldn't apply there wouldn't be any permitting if we if because we don't in other words everything's in the right of way we manage that already so there's no pering it would only so anything in the right of way I thought homeowners homeowners don't have anything don't do anything to their trees in matter way sometimes they do so oh I see what you're saying you're saying if requiring a permit yeah for you could still have a process it just wouldn't for for some for per for a person who wanted to who wanted to remove a street tree that that's that's where there would be a permit process or a fine process if they take it down without the permit fine but that's important so you can still establish the process you just wouldn't apply it to it would just be Street it would just be trees in the right of way same thing if someone was going to take a tree down in the park that would not allowed I mean it could be adjacent to a property owner but that's in the right of way they can't they're not they can't take that tree down not kind of thing so that would be because that did occur actually there were some trees taken down that were not actually on the private property but it was a long time ago and it's you know it was then um someone ex you know expanded their um reach um into Township doesn't pay to maintain trees in the public right away all throughout Town it doesn't like if a tree yeah it does I mean there's pruning that's done removal all of that is out of Township but not on all public trees on all public well not every tree has been no not every tree has had work done but a lot of them have in the public right of way but are isn't the township relying on private land owners to maintain public trees no because I've got trees in the right of way that nobody's ever and I wouldn't even know what to do with that do yeah do I don't unless unless my street is excluded because no it shouldn't I no I don't think it's excluded we I know we well I'll tell you what let's do that after the me we'll look about that specifically when we' done the work session but because I have got the tree inventory right here so we can look at that um yes so um it occurs to me that I should put something together for everybody to look at I'll be see see you on it as and I'll present to the township because I have to get them ahead of time these are these are the considerations for the township that we need feedback on at the 26 meeting and then I would definitely need you guys input I'll put something together I'm looking at Jessica she's really good at editing and putting things like like what you just what you just said about the non Street trees and like like that was exactly right um so I'll put something together or you and I could get together and do it together so that would be great and get it to them next week so they have it before the 12th and um and then they have plenty of time to consider and consult each other uh to let us know because you because then we have we only have two months then because it's it has to be adopted by May 1 on the agenda both April meetings or March meetings even if we can get it well once we get the feedback we're having the work session I don't and I guess I have to communicate with the township administrator and the attorney as well to see it depends on how much how many changes are happening well that's what that's where we are you think we still have time to meet the May 1 deadline and I don't know what the penalties are yeah I don't there's a question M I don't know let's not go there because we will get it done because we'll have the two months what the and so maybe we could present it at the 11th or the 25th meeting the the finished ordinance and then two readings two readings and then the third no just just the two first meeting is AD first reading okay and second reading ad to adopt it and that's when public comment is allowed and if there are any changes then they have to go back and start again and then you need two readings again I just wanted yeah just to say that um when uh when we're at the T Township meeting on February 26 we'll find out what their input is hopefully and then we'll know if we need to just uh uh quickly um do whatever if it's simple then they can just move it on to the attorney at that point instead of having a work session No need no we' need a work session because we I think I mean unless you want to have see we we can't have the work session and finalize it until we know what's included and maybe um you know maybe they have strong feelings about it already and we could even get some feedback on the 12th I I I don't know right right so the work session though has to after we work on whatever we still have to go back to the township then right no we just have to give it to the attorney give it to the attorney goes to the attorney once we yeah yeah okay makes up the ordinance he'll do the ordinance right right right definitely I do have a feeling that if we we do need to clarify with the township committee if they want this to extend to non Street trees definitely my gut say when we ask them that question they're gonna say it depends on the amount of the fun and it depends on the permit feed amount they're gonna say it depends they're not GNA give us yes or no they're gonna no I think they'll give us yes or no on that that's my experience based on because this had come up once before okay and I don't remember not this particular but something about shade tree um control over trees beyond the street trees into and and it and it was at that time it was a definite no I'm sorry I don't remember what it was um so if they did ask that we could that we would say we we're not at we like if you do if you are willing to consider that it would go that it would affect non- Street trees then we will get back to you with some kind of a schedule but we just want to know no I think we have to have a we have to have a schedule there on the 26 that if it extends Beyond this is the schedule we recommend so we guess we need another work session before then okay we do need so we need a work session prior to then so um anybody next Thursday the 8th well we have if if if we need them to answer is it just Street trees or the entire property is it commercial and residential or just residential how much are the fees I think we propose the fees and then they they approve or they don't I don't think we ask them to come up with the fees we do that and then they approve or they don't come up with some fees right now do we have to do we have to ask that's why if it's commercial or residential the ordinance that the model or because his person is defined as it's just Street trees or not Street trees it doesn't the ordinance is everything right is I think we need you I think we need well it came it came up on when we were discussing it at the meeting on the 27 I guess that would it could it extend maybe to Commercial and not residents so I think it has to be asked but you're right there's no language that it's either Street trees Street trees public domain or everything else which is everything else right yeah the model ordinance doesn't provide any guidance for me that distinction so then we don't it's one it's one or the other okay it had been brought up someone say suggest it or what if we just do commercial but it's one way or the other it's not commercial resal okay it's non Street trees or non right it's r or it's everything else okay okay so you're saying we come up with a I think we should come permit and fines um one of the other um model ordinances did have suggestions I think or maybe we looked at maybe we looked at another Township um but these well see there's different there's fines and there's fees right so the schedule that's here these are permit fees I believe per this one through for on page five those are permit fees but we also had there' have to be a fine structure but these right here this is is permit fees and what are you saying is $15 a tree what are you saying charge is [Music] $5 and I think for the first 40 that's pretty high so I'm sorry this is a permit fee for up to five trees so okay so I'll put this in the email okay so $35 up to five that's one to five up to five trees five for the first five trees okay and then it's $10 for additional trees what any tree wait so for the first five trees and then if they have 10 trees is at 70 that's something what does Monroe say what is the [Music] Monroe well it seems to me that Princeton charges $40 and the the permit has room for five three for five so same expensive but but I have to tell you pris took down a gigantic tree never got a permit they never anything and no one ever said anything all right so are we be $35 for the first five trees for a permit fee that was Monroe and and then in terms of fines I actually think I would ask Township Personnel who you know have education on this they would they would have to come up with a fine schedule I mean there are other fines in town for various things I I I don't want to I don't want to be working completely out of context someone who already works with fines and stuff could determine what those fines are uh hope hope will has a application fee $25 for each tax lot but they have inspection fee $50 for each tax lot for is that for a tree or no per the T per tax slot um you know this is just so you know we have examples of what PL Plainsboro only has an advisory so they don't even have well maybe we'll have an advisory regarding this I mean sha tree I mean they have a sha tree advisory not oh I'm sorry I they had a public like um on uh reported okay okay but this is huge this time so what else do you want to as I put as they sent this email out to all the Township community people $35 $35 for the first five treat and and fines would be fines would be determined by um the township they'd have to set that fee that's not for us to do maybe the or maybe the or maybe the lawyer would do it I don't know but I have no context within I extra copy if you want this we can provide Norms from other townships an example of yeah this is the yeah hold on to this because this is a example of the of the permit it's two-sided oh gosh I didn't even see yeah this is this is um it's it's just an example of what Princeton has I didn't even look at the other side I too yeah now now see that's yeah but here's the difference they have an arbit to sign off on it we don't right exactly I know well that's so that's why I mean Taylor's the oron is is prinson is the only I think the only Township in the entire state that is a full-time arborus by the way yeah so there's another I mean the if we do Institute so I would love to I want to protect Arch Tre cany I would love for this to extend to non- Street trees if I were on the township committee one of the first questions I would ask is who's going to be processing all these permits right well they'll have to tell us is $15 for permit for a significant tree that's the mature height of 50 ft and and and many of these towns may be actually amending what they're doing based on the model work true right this is any person found guil of removing trees or actions causing substantial harm are find $500 score three times the cost of replacement trees of the same species at 2.5 dbh whichever but see this is the township of Plainsboro they don't have a shade treat commission right but that's what they that's but that's a good I mean that's a good example of of something you're buying that's can you send that to me Bonnie or let me I'll make a copy of that or something before I go you can read it yeah I think I just looking at the neighboring what the Norms are you don't want to keep this in your notes okay um does anybody have any other uh please when I send you um and I um what I'm going to send to the township committee and then L on take a look at that and see if you think it represents what we're asking the township to uh tell us what we need to to in order to go forward um I'd like to uh make a motion that this meeting this this work session be adjourned second and by Lee and the time is 1253 1251 and um all in faor favor of adjourning the meeting I meeting adjourned