evening everyone this is the March 19 2024 meeting of the a haror City municipal land use board and in compliance with the open public meetings act adequate notice of this meeting was provided by posting on the city hall bulletin board and by n notification to our newspapers record and I asked Don to please make this announcement part of the public record uh we have this is our reorganization meeting we have not met in 2024 yet so applicants I would appreciate your Indulgence to allow us to get through our reorganization and we'll we'll get to the business at hand uh as soon as we can get this off of our place so uh we're going to go into the oath of members we'll grab John on the on the back end when he gets here and we'll just have to do him separately but uh we have uh Gladis Torres myself Mike Mckenna George Frick Stefan Keener and should we swear the council people in Kim hessie and Carl Timbers yeah we need the following people to stand at this time Mr G is not here yet miss hessie Carl Timbers Stephanie auner uh Gladis Torres George Frick Michael McKenna and Jack camera can pick you up so people watching for a moment can see you um I'll Brak this down in the easy bites and after I say I you're going to state your name and then when I get to um the part where I say the duties of the office of right now you're all just members no one's been elected to any position it so you'll just say member all right so Raise Your Right hands Mr Peterson you're going to put your hand on the Bible representing everyone else I you solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of the United States that I will support the constition of the United States and the constition of the state of New Jersey and the constition of the state of New Jersey that I will bear true faith and allegiance that I will bear true faith and Al to the same to the same and the governments established and the government established in the united states in the United States and in this state and in this state under the authority of the people under auth of the people and that I will Faithfully I will faithfully impartially and justly perform perform all of the duties all of the DU of the office of member of the office of M of the planning board of eggor city planning board of egg City according to the best of my ability to the best of my and you may add if you choose to so help me God congratulations that's actually a very good comment comment on that leader but thank you for bringing that [Music] up congratulations everyone thank you thank you uh Donna if we put a roll call please mayor Petty Here Mr Peterson here Mr Timbers here Mr Walker here Mike mck here M Torres here Mr Keener here Mr frck here engineer Ryan mcgow here Attorney Carol Olaf here and secretary here we should have enough voting members then to appoint professionals legal council L sport appointment is there a motion to appoint second motion second roll call Donna please may CH Pat yes Mr Peterson yes Mr Timbers yes Mr Walker yes Mike Mckenna yes Mrs Torres yes Mr keer yes Mr fck yes thank you very much I'm just going to take one brief second um I'm Carol goloff for who anybody who hasn't met me before um we started the meeting my daughter Rachel is also an attorney um and Mr timers asked a very very good question um that I'd like to point out just so we're all speaking the same language going forward um Mr timers asked about the differentiation during the oath of planning board and Zoning Board and it is a very commonly misunderstood lingo in towns that don't have a joint board we have a planning board and a zoning Board of adjustment when you have a joint board I don't like it but the law calls it a planning board and depending upon the application only certain members are allowed to vote on certain decisions and if you're on the planning board only and we we'll talk about in depth about that when it comes up in problematic if you're not allowed to vote on a zoning board issue because of your class I'm going to be asking you to step down stay mute pretend you're not here and but even though it's really is no new board function we still call ourselves a planning board but you really are two different boards but we don't say that anymore so thank you for bringing that a very important distinction we get a bu one get one yes and despite the fact that she appears very young uh Rachel has been coming to planning board meetings with me since fourth grade we represent a number of boards um and she's she knows what she's about glad to have you welcome board thank you very much uh planner and engineer make a motion second second motion second the roll call Donna please mayor Jim Patty yes Mr Peterson yes Mr Timbers yes Mr Walker yes Mike McKennon yes Mrs Torres yes Mr Keener yes Mr brick yes and secretary she she needs no appointment uh but she does it all and we appreciate it very much but I make a motion to uh return Donna second as a secretary everybody called and I hope she's not Pastor any about the meetings but she's anxious to make sure everybody's going to come election of board officers uh is there nomination for chair like to make a motion for Jack Peterson chair second any other nominations all in favor anyone oppose motion carried thank you ladies and gentlemen I appreciate your confidence in me very much co-chair your Walker I'll second it second any other nomination all those in favor anyone oppos motion is carried congratulations thank you meeting dates as distributed uh a motion on these meeting dates any questions not a motion to approve meeting dates is listed so move favor please say I I anyone oppos carried thank you newspaper ads Press of Atlantic City and The hamton Gazette there a motion motion second all in favor please say I I oppos thank you CH may I might I ask a question about um advertisement a lot of boards are now thinking about um adding I don't know if the city has a Facebook page um adding um that also so if there's a snowstorm or something and there's no time to get anything in the paper or there's a cancellation of application unexpectedly posting it on the Facebook I don't know if Donna actually has access to that so the chairman so chooses she can certainly do that I would add that can we amend the motion then absolutely okay so we'll amend the motion and who moved it and Che second all in favor please say I I anyone oppos motion is carried thank you thank you Carol okay uh minutes of December 19 meeting so move second second all in favor anyone opposed one exstension resolution so then we will move into the business for this evening application 20241 L use board a barber City Partners LLC 10 Philadelphia Avenue good evening Mr chairman mayor members of the board name is Mike lario from The Firm of M Davis and gold um I apologize or principal of the applicant going operation testimony has some vehicular issues this evening he is on his way he's not going to get here probably for another 20 minutes I know there's another matter on the agenda for tonight I don't want to waste any of the board's time so Mr chairman if it's all right with you we happy to wait out take a secondary that' be fine thank you thank [Music] you introducing myself again you're just gonna have to gu I figured it out John I John do solemnly swear do solemnly swear that I will support the Constitution of Constitution of the United States the Constitution of the state of New Jersey constitution of the state of New Jersey and that I will bear truth faith and allegiance to S I will bear truth faith and allegiance to the same and the government's established and the government's established in the United States and the state of New Jersey in the United States and state New Jersey under the authority of the people under the authority of the people and that I will Faithfully I will faithfully and partially and partially and justly perform and justly perform all of the duties of the office all the duties of the office of member of member of the planning board of a Harbor City planning board of a Harbor City according to the best of my ability according to the best of my ability and you may add so help so help me God thank you congratulations uh we'll move to application 20242 land use board spread the gospel uh 235 and 243 St Lis Avenue Mr chairman welcome [Music] board located in the zone we here simply looking for labor of the site plan [Music] requir authorized approvals for variance and also temporarily W the site plan approval pending and application and approval from the pine lands Commission it's pointed out in Mr M's reports after captured what the situation was there um that there was a uh during the design process was determin that the paving in the Park area be technically inas also refers to the soil conditions can Support Compliance Stone water management system on the site without at a minimum significant complications and expense so so today our application is simply to uh leave the site plan requirements because there's been no change on property over the past five years since they acquired ownership folks who was the provider of the corporation and she's prepared to get testimony site plan has at least existing conditions plan has been submitted by from you have that in your package copy it to but do not have an engineer here to testify be certified report would you raise your right hand please you swear that all the testimony you offer this evening will be the truth yes you can put your hand down and would you please um slowly State your first name and say and spell your last common spell yes l a i n e fox h a w KES and I think Mr fredman said you're the proprietor what is your legal title of in the is it a corporation or an LLC it's LLC and what is your role CEO CEO okay thank you um what uh when was the spr goel 2009 and what does do uh spr is a nonprofit radio station and organization the com time in 2017 that you required property in a Part City yes deting question yes and uh was your purpose working that property um to frienders spread the gospel by way of giving um we have events at the hall as well as um Community you know offering it to the community and when we're not using it for our personal use we also made it available for the public to use it for we have our you know we have different different events there I understand that you also have a radio station we do spre the gospel uh does this says gospel 88.7 u w 20 2009 when we start radio station and then 2017 and what part of the radio station do you perform we don't any business of the radio station um and you mentioned that we do church activities at the hall yes we we do our own events we have um on our community end we have um community events there we also offered I serve on the Workforce Development board we've had meetings there uh We've offered it to the fellowship of churches we've offered it to different churches pastors um as well as our community events and activities that we have we have a at the did they participate those people participate at the yes um now after acquiring the property in 2017 to building either inside or outside only outside we did the parking uh R handicap yes we did a two slabs for the handicap paint it Stu like that okay that was one of the conditions that the board had had to do the condition was uh the handicap ramp and the handicap parking St those two improvements to the outside of the building any other improvements done um we pay it that been recent within the last year so okay um you discussed the parking situation about the potential of parking at least the concept that you may want to do that in the future have those plans now been abandoned they have so the the type of parking there is a gravel parking lot yes is that the circumstances uh when you bought the building yes it was a gra parking lot yes um board I I just open up for board they have any questions of this witness um essentially our presentation speaks for itself in the documents that we've submitted that there's been no change to the plan to the site no other improvements done and that's the basis [Music] you would Ryan do you want to weigh in at this time before any questions or ask questions first any questions from the board at this time how many of these out of these eight requirements have been met to date four of them were sort of event I'll call them um numbers 5 six seven and 8 um 57 and 8 we're satisfied six is what they're here requesting wa for um the other conditions were all sort of on app the 8 a.m. to 11: p.m was probably ever follow with events that were posted there so I I don't know that they've been a very good Steward to the community the events have taken place P these hours with the noise there's no control of the clientele that come in there as far as where they Park how they Park and everything else I don't I don't know I I would like to hear how they're going to prevent the problems they've had in the past as they as they're located in a residential neighborhood so why don't I go through um the application as it sits the requirements that we have and we'll sort of go back to the applicant with have them address you know directly address those questions um so the application that was submitted was for the waiver of the submission of the site plan um and the paving of parking lots required that they submit an application of P lands um and then come back to the board with a site plan that would include the paving the process to go through the design was a lot more drawn out I think we envisioned it would be um but ultimately their engineer after doing some soil testing and some design work on the site um kind of determined that locating storm water management facilities on that site are just is just not viable um there's like a five foot thick clay layer from 5 feet down to 10 feet down um so getting any kind of infiltration facility to work oncap which is what would be required to meet the current store management rules is um if not impossible very close to Impossible um so that's that's sort of why they're here is to come back to request you know to just wave the requirement the parking lot and submit that site plan because they have those technal visibility issues as I told as you sort of got to on the second page of the report we did list all of the conditions of the prior approval eight um the first four had nothing to do with this like I said the other three um were satisfied um you know obviously we have some information that that leads us to believe that the other requirements weren't met but I I think we want to ask those questions directly to the applicant um but I'll highlight that this application is is very limited in scope it is only for relief from that one condition um I spoke to the applicat attorney earlier today um about the fact that I'd be highlighting that there were other conditions and that we would ask the applicant to reaffirm that they still exist and that they would be adhered to um but they're they're sort of beyond the scope of The Limited request that they they're making so I think you should have that discussion and ask those questions and highlight um not only the conditions but um some of the things from the finding the fact that are not enumerated in my letter because they weren't specific with conditions um but from item four in the findings of facts of the approval resolution from October 2017 yeah October 17 2017 um it said that the use would be by invite only liquor would not be served in the site if the oper wishes to serve on the site whether through an onsite purchase own how we need to apply for andain liquid license um we discussed that at the hearing from what our call we didn't include that because that's just the law that's something that they're required to do if there's alcohol served on site so we didn't specifically include that as a condition another was the op Testify the some from the organization will be present at all events and the op will act as their own security and maintenance it is ensuring that surrounding neighborhood is not negatively impacted anyway so I think it's certainly within the board's PR to ask um questions about you know whether the all of that is being adhered to um but I I don't want to to Cloud um know the experience that has been had and the anecdotal information that we have uh about what has happened to the site with what is specifically included in this application does that make sense sure what was the dat get folling to pance um the original submission of pance commission sure um I think the original application submission actually did meet the six-month deadline but there wasn't sufficient information to actually um you know there's no way it would been approved there wasn't sufficient information the original application to get an approval from the commission um so they went back and forth with their engineer over the the span of several years um doing some site layout out going back doing some borings several iterations several submissions to the commission um so it like I said it was a much more protracted process than was sort of outlined in the resolution when was a complete filing pil subm uh the the I think the original application was submitted within the six-month deadline again there wasn't sufficient I don't know I don't know that the PS ever deemed the obligation fully complete um so I'm not pring to all the the P correspondence question did um you say there's a 5 foot layer of clay there yes um we've had a lot of experience with clay in AC corver City and the two high the high school the Middle School uh when I was working at hers we dealt with it there I had it in my backyard drilling a well and there is nowhere that I know of is 5 feet did you have a chance to review the soil samples that came up so I I the S logs I spoke to their engineer um and their um the way they described it was like dense massive white clay and it's there's clay there but I 5 feet is I think a little exagger exaggeration I mean I I trust me we we typically defer to the soil logs because it's you know professionals like ourselves who are putting them together so I wasn't there to witness the test bit um but I assume is that information we can get um I mean we request additional information on the test rate c um but I I'll look back I don't remember who did them off the top of my head but so somebody Engineers or sub consultant they Joe Joe if I could let's back up to the application so as I remember and correct me if I'm wrong Miss Hawks uh we only uh followed through with the completion of the parking lot because when you guys made the application you wanted to PVE the parking lot because you wanted the property to look nice and at that time not having any idea that none of us did that it would it would be virtually impossible to try to pay that parking lot because of the requirements of the D drainage there's just not enough room and it can't be stored underground so uh we I don't think we impos the parking lot on you but because you offered to do it and it became part of the application it just became necessary for us to follow through the you know the Motions to you know approve it or disapprove it so in a roundabout way that's that's why we're here tonight I mean at least that's the way I that I understand it is that accurate no requirement imposed to pay the parking but rather it was something that was your husband that testify that was your intention that sometime in the future we would like to do that and in fact you made the effort Lo on the hold after the effort was made to determine if it's just not feasible from a from a engineering standpoint nor from a financial standpoint right so I don't there's no there's no Pine or any requirement to pave yeah there was no ordinance requirement there was no technical requirement that we need to satisfy um I mean I I personally was not at the hearing but from what I recall leading up to it that was and coming out of it well I wasn't here when that was done but everything that I've heard since it was done was that was what was the big problem that that you had agreed to PVE it and then that wasn't happening and that's that was the big contention so it was it was holding up uh certificate of occupancy is that right yeah that was a condition need sa satisfied before the final cation so that's that's what became the Ops it was incorporated in a resolution not to meet any technical requirement just because that's what was offered and that's what we you know Incorporated in the approval resolution and then without weaving that requirement it needed to be satisfied or they had to continue to have TCO so that's kind of how we got even though TCO was pulled or removed uh that's that's my understanding yeah because it it was continually remove or continually um was refreshed or updated every six months or three months whatever the requirement was um finally I think it was just too much time at Pastor he said you're not making enough progress it was supposed to be six months we sorted Vision back in this process in year and a half it's been six years seven years was right I question uh this is uh uh I guess goes to the history of the of the site itself um before they took ownership of the site before they ever came to the board uh I'm assuming the site was used by someone prior Nights of Columbus assum they had events and they used a lot yes unpaid in its current condition corre I think the board have had a level of comfort that they could move forward and utilize the facility in its current condition without a paid parking lot we understood that it would be months or a year to get an approv from the finance commission and be able actually able to parot so I think the board's intention at the time was really say okay you can start to use it now but you just got to keep moving forward on this path to get your parking lot paid we don't want to take a year away from you waiting to get the parking lot paid but we want to see the pay it so get started now and then you know start my second point is that when we issued a TCO I assume that was because they were substantially compliant with what the board wanted and what orces there was a requirement um a specific addition approval that required the optim completed required Ada handicap parking space improvements prior to the board issuing a recommendation to St Car City to the issuance of a temporary so there was something that we wanted to see before we would allow atcr and that was ADA Compliant parking stalls and comp yeah they pulled a building permit for those in December of 2017 they got their approval memorialized in October so within two months they got their building permit built that ADA parking pad and buil ramp satisfy their requirement so is it fair to say that at some point at least time they receive TCO this that was that was present at the time that they were going to work on and um made some assurances to the board they going to work on however for the majority of everything else were sub yeah and they remain substan yeah they operated under TCO for sixish years so how long can oh question how long can someone operate under a TCO I don't know that there's actual BS on is there any limit as far as renewals I don't believe so in fact I think the community school operated under TCL for like 15 years as long as a city would Grant an extension yeah agree with the synopsis that's been given here it was really an accommodation of the board accommodating the applicant that um you know will give you the TCO and the TCO was obviously after an inspection to show that there's no health safety or welfare the health safety issues to occup of the building and they operated during that 5year period and we talked about the not only the complications and the application itself but there also happened to be a pandemic in between and state was not as responsive and just engineering wasn't as responsive and they do my C to D some of that responsibility as to why it is took so long but the condition of the board was uh do it take care of the handicap aspect we'll isue a temporary SE V and when you get your approvals come back before us and get the final approvals so we've abandoned that effort now uh and now we're looking to finalize those approvals the and I also add that the map at least the plan that was presented to you concerning existing conditions for all intents and purposes is a site plan I'm not sure what else person would really do or engineer reflect on those plans other than what is there okay and I may add that the plans might reflect a uh a storage building that has since been removed there was a temporary storage building that and that is no longer on the property as well so we're looking to have waiver the site plan approvals so we go and apply for a permanent CEO and get back in operation because the city has shut us down for the last any no I I would like to point out though just just for your um just so you know that the city has also amended well is attempting to amend the noise ordinance so the times on this may be a little bit different just for your awareness it hasn't been passed yet but it's been introduced it's uh ordinance number 2 for 2024 amending chapter 189 of the noise phot of Harbor City so just as an informational purpose to maybe amend this what we have in Ryan's report is um restricted hours during the weekdays and this has nothing to do with your place at all um just just information so you know it's going to be changed shall be amended to 10 p.m. to 800 a.m. any day except Friday and Saturday that's 189 D1 and then restricted hours during weekends that would be Friday and Saturday 12 a.m to 800 a. so I don't see where it says Sunday here well Sunday would be during they they I think wanted to consider that during the week because Monday is the I can give you this if you want the copy of it like I said it hasn't passed yet it was just introduced I don't see that much difference but maybe I think Sunday would probably be the most different I'm [Music] guessing anyone else from the board um yeah I have a couple questions um as far as some of these other concerns that we that Ryan went over um the application or applicant testified somebody from their organization will be present at all events and act as their own security um I think that needs to happen with the history of the the um different events that's happened there there's been multiple um there was a murder there was a shooting there was I did an openpr request on this last year um there was one Mur since 1 128 to 62723 um the police responded there for one murder homicide one shooting four suspicious activity 19 noise complaints three mvas seven crime prevention activities one un wanted individual and 59 property checks I think something needs to be done along those lines to keep that neighborhood safe first and foremost and then be a good neighbor to the rest of the neighbors area I know some of the police reports if you if you read them they did start noting I guess originally they may not have known that that was in their that that they had to have somebody there from the building um after I think the shooting then the police department did start noting that their police reports um that there was nobody present I know that the uh my Cent to testify as to her son is a neighbor of the building of the Liz right next door and you want to hear from him as to how what kind of property checks he does well no it just says that and someone from their organization will be present at all events and that the app applicant will act as their own security I mean I I think living next door is not the same as being in the building while something's going on um if if there's 59 noise complaints somebody from the the building should be responsible to know that hey we have to turn this whatever the noise is whether it's people yelling it's music we don't agree that those things need to be but they weren't well the the the interesting thing about it is that nobody from whether it's the city or the police department or a code enforcement officer has ever brought these things to my client's attention or or cited or for any violation um we're not here to disc your client has no idea that there was a shooting I me the very next day they were they were back go ahead okay number one and I think everybody already knows this but it's so crucial that we don't speak over each other because we're making a recording minutes are going to have to be drafted and we all need to hear each other and while I've got the floor I'm going to try to put a fine point on what we're here for if you don't mind and I certainly don't want to step on anyone's toes and everybody here knows that this is my first night here I'm not intimately uh acquainted with all the facts I only know everything that I've read and Rachel's read and we've talked about and said how are we going to handle this I have to admit that I'm quite pleased that it hadn't started getting a little heated before now so good job everybody so far but let me explain what our job here is tonight so we can do it both for the city's benefit and the applicant's benefit because you need to serve both you need to serve the community and you need to provide a certain level of customer service to do the applicant we know back in 2017 there was a resolution approving certain things with certain conditions if a question of noise for example let me keep it easy was a question that the whole city was in an uproar about and the city is already changing their laws so part of our motion tonight whether it's to approve or deny let's say approval um the the condition one of the conditions number four that says the operations are limited to Friday and Saturday until 2: am we're going to put in the resolution that there's an awareness of the applicant that their new noise ordinance now is going to curtail noise to um Friday and Saturday was 12:00 a.m. to 8 a.m. so we'll we'll note that in The Resolution For Better or Worse if the applicant breaks those rules that's code enforcement that's not planning board what is planning board's um Authority tonight the applicant is coming back as you knew the applicant would but the applicant is coming back asking for something different than you thought it would what is reasonably related to the relief being requested and I'm so sorry my backs to you guys I don't want to um so if we look at Ryan's report let's go to page two Ryan has got a really good job of going through that the prior approval from 27 was based on Ryan's already told us that 78 and8 have been complied with so that's done we're talking about six so now we've got to look at one through five based on what the applicant is requesting which is relief from having to pave that parking lot that's all they're ask is that reasonable Mr timers asked a very good question what was the prior use and are they and is the current applicant in substantial compliance the use that's been going on since 2017 is about what the board in 2017 expected that to decide whether or not not Paving that parking lot is now reasonable or not if we find out that back in the day when night the Columbus were in five gentlemen a month came to the building sat around playing Canasta and left okay a gravel parking lot was sufficient and this applicant I wasn't here we don't know what the applicant I don't know what the applicant said in 2017 but for whatever reason they offered to pave the park parking lot is the use are they now having 1,500 men comeing night to play Canasta the gravel parking lot wouldn't handle that type of traffic so you as a board a planning board would have the right to talk to the applicant and talk to your engineer about what engineering problems would not Paving the parking lot HS if the applicant in uh can ition number um three um if somehow not having live broadcasts at the station if now you know they are and the traffic generated by that impacts the condition of the parking lot and the standards that you need to uphold yeah we need to talk about that the unfortunate events that have occurred on the site unless they're reasonably related to Paving a parking lot that's code enforcement not not planning board the planning board has a very limited jurisdiction so your questions have to be related to planning so the questions are good ones but they need to be related to what conditions you might be changing enhancing deleting so that's what we need to focus on and I know I went on a little longer than I probably should have but if you have questions about that legal standard happy to review them um I hope I haven't confused the sit I do have a question I'm confused so I'm not allowed to ask that question oh you absolutely are allowed to ask any question okay um any question about anything absolutely to do with that building absolutely okay because we can explore what impact past events have had on the use of the property because your job is to make sure that the use of the property complies with a harbor cities and New Jersey's planning and zoning laws but we have to remember the scope of the application the scope of the application tonight is this young lady is asking to no longer have to pave a parking lot that she offered to pay in 2017 point out that there was an offer to pay it was an intention it was not a condition that was imposed by the school okay thanks Mark okay so so Ryan read paragraph and you said that the building and its occupants cannot impede the rest of the neighborhood how did you write how did you read that ran so was it from the finding the fact of thei someone from the organization we president that portion where you reading from that's the prior resolution in 2017 read it again the applicant testified that someone from their organization will be present at all events and that applicant will act as their own security and maintenance in ensuring that the surrounding neighborhood is not negatively impacted any negatively okay so I I think to Carol's point and and the way that I tried to frame the review letter is that we can have a conversation with the applicant about these issues and ask them to reaffirm their commitment to the the commitments that they made right originally were Incorporated in the resolution that those don't have direct bearing on whether they need to pay the par I think that's carage point is they're they're two separate things while they're here we can definitely while they're and remind them that there are other conditions that need to be adhered to right but it's not our job to enforce their no no I'm just asking a [Music] question someone else just just I wasn't I wasn't done just what I was trying to get at is you had said that your son lives right next door yes sir okay your son lives right next door the police department was called and you're supposed to supply your own security you not informed I asked you if you were informed about the shooting and and your lawyer said that you were not informed about that so with you saying that I have to wonder in my mind if her son is right next door her there mustn't have been any Security in the building when the shooting happened or outside of the building when the shooting happened that's what I was getting at so the issue is the security is what I'm getting my client is here first of all as I understand what had occurred there is that the person who was not part of the event that was ongoing had come from out of state with Criminal Intent and and did this act this criminal act nobody could be faulted for you know somehow being predict believe speaking sir I believe speaking the fact of the event okay so the situation being that there's a condition of the board which requires that security be on site at all times my appli to standing here before you tonight and prepar to affirm and acknowledge that's the case uh and and we're not here disputing what the conditions that were imposed by the board we're here tonight simply to to say that there has been no change uh in the site plan uh that was the only remaining issue as far as this is concerned if this board wants to refer something to its code enforcement officer to bring a notice of violation against my client then due process will work its for and my client will defend or or or you know take her position as it pertains to that and the chips will fall where they may right I understand that but this is the only time that we have time and an opportunity to ask those questions so that's why I'm asking this question no objection ask question just uh one point that I want to make is uh you you mentioned that um the intent was to pave the parking lot right it was not you said it wasn't a condition of approval however Mr M all's report here it does say the applicant reminded that there are numerous specific conditions of approval and that is listed under that paragraph so that's part of it you know so there is a condition from the board even though they volunteered to do it it was a condition that the board had posed at the time that they were here the last sure that's why back to have that we just a point and you know you're still asking for we I did not report but obviously it's the resolution itself which dictates what the conditions are and if you were to look at that my interpretation of what the 2017 resolution there's nowhere in it set that it says this is a condition of your approval you must pay the prop it said you must apply for it because they they would like to have had it they' like to have been able [Music] to I think to this point the the wording of the resolution is the only specific condition is that they apply to the finance commission 30 days elsewhere in the findings of fact section it discusses the requirement to make the F so it's not as quite as clean seems a little misleading here yeah think it's clear that the in well let me let me make sure the records really clear though we're not going to debate what happened in the past there was a there was a plan submitted the applicant suggested there was going to be a paved parking lot that's not a good or bad thing nobody needs to argue about that it is it it happened that's that was the status of the application now the application now the applicant for legitimate reasons is asking permission to withdraw that part of the proposed plan in 2017 we're getting off track here we don't need to fight about who El for what what the application included an offer to pay think about a house being built somebody comes in and says I want to build X and then they want to change it they're allowed to change it but we're not gonna fight about what the first application was there's get a little apperal for no reason sure car Ryan there there's no D reason or any Pine Land to say that that that it has to be paved is there no there's nothing that would require okay so I mean they can continue to use it and it'll function like it has for the lay 50 years I have a question the the reason it's not getting paved is because of in order to PVE a lot you would need to construct stor management infrastructure in order to construct compliant stor management infrastructure you need to have an infiltration component um I pulled up the soil logs it describes it as white massive clay from 56 Ines to 115 inch which is approximately 5 feet thick um on one boring and from 64 in to 120 in on the other same description white massive clay um one Dix is the the um geologist who did the soil boring uh I have reviewed her work many many times she's been doing this for 30 plus years so if that's what she says I I believe so it's not possible um yeah so essentially it's it's not technically feasible I mean could you create like a groundwater injection well I mean you can solve any problem of money but you might be you know $250,000 to construct a stor management Basin that's a little bigger than this table to make it work properly so for all intense purposes that's what we as Engineers consider to be technically in is not viable any other questions from board members I question um I'm not sure but um my be a conflict of interest but I believe Mr miss you purchased the property through um my my firm Cent 21 freck reals back in 2017 did you you stand voting from my office as your realtor filters anybody so I didn't know if that was a conflict of interest being that they purchased it and we handled the sale back in 2017 before I vote right so the question basically boils down to the fact that an employee of you earned your firm a commission does that cause uh a conflict I thought I was sure but I just wanted toing yeah it's a good question um this is not zoning it's planning and we got plenty of votes so why not throw caution but thank you for bringing that wasn't sure did okay if we didn't have enough members I would have aired on 2017 commission it's not like it's an ongoing business but we have plenty of people I did have a question though can I ask a question being that we we couldn't problem I the question first then any other questions from board members yeah I have a couple questions so I know they're looking for a waiver on this but does it not open up the door for other I'm sorry terms that we can could add absolutely so we've opened up Pandora's Box here both ways well just like I told Mr Freeman he didn't need to be so ad theal say we don't need to say it that way um but yes it's not Pandora's Box because no then that says that you can willy-nilly we could we could now address some of these concerns that we didn't address in good faith 2017 with some other terms as part of this application as long as they're reasonably related to the first application and the application tonight and our current use of the bill so prior to when kns Columbus had it for probably many years it was rarely used in very small crowds parking lot was normally sufficient since 2017 everything has overflowed into the street I mean most the residents came with Park a far if they leave they if they leave to go to w to get milk they got a park two blocks up the road I don't know what think it's clear what the building capacity is I think that should clearly be posted on the outside of the building I think the Ord hours of operation needs to be clearly posted on the outside of the building and I think I know there's a Citywide ordinance for noise but I think I would like to ask for a change to that as it applies to this property so why don't we break that down first I think you need to ask your engineer about what the parking for back in 2017 what the parking maximums were and what number whether whether a parking um lot is paved or not there's only a certain number of spots so why don't we deal with parking first okay sure so the parking stalls to my knowledge have never been delineated there's not like parking bumpers that indicate X number of cars um so we don't really have a good history of how many cars could is that because that was anticipated to be addressed when the when they came back to address the parking lot just just speaking to the historical side of it it operates Nights of Columbus with we don't know how many spaces um because they're not it's just essentially many cars people can fit as they P it um so we don't know you know really what the prior number was and presumably it's operating the same condition so it's called um I would imagine that if they paid the parking lot the Practical number of parking spaces would probably decrease because some of that parking area would have to be dedicated to St management and then once it's paved it has to be striped and your stalls have to be certain wids and certain drive a I'm going to interrupt um I think what Mr bar was asking um what the board anticipated in 2017 if I'm not mistaken and please interrupt if I get anything wrong back in 2017 it was anticipated that the applicant within six months would go to Pineland yes get whatever approvals were needed and then come back with a site plan showing a paved parting lot right correct okay good can we request the site plan without a pave Park lot that shows parking that shows parking bumpers that that this way we know how many cars can fit in the park L you could could reasonably request that the parking be delineated on the site um you in a matter of of just it being drawn on the plan I what we have an existing dig plan is a site plan where there are no changes because it shows everything that's there um but if we wanted the number of stalls delineated in the locations where they were I think that's an unreasonable request and I think the second part of Mr G's question was based on the square footage of the building how much parking is required so I don't know what the occupancy limit is on the interior of the building um that's that comes from the the building code official I don't know what the posted number is presumably they have a number posted of the inside of the building I think they would have to um because of the use class that is um presumably you know if you have one car per person certainly the number of occupants for that building is going to grossly exceed the amount of parking in that parking space or part it's just without knowing that the actual count inside it's hard to know if I have much and again just so I can make sure whatever resolution we draft makes sense if you build if you propose a supermarket I know that the there's exactly is there any rule in aor city that would govern the number of parking spaces a building of this square footage yeah that would be required as buil constructed and how many spaces do we know how many spaces have to go back because these are the type of questions that would be asked if yeah they g to p right [Music] exactly okay well there you go so yeah Tim Tim has parking delated as and they had applied as a church one space for every five seats in the church auditorial so I don't think that the way that the parking was evaluated originally is really reflective of how the facility is being used it would be um C hall or something like that which has a slightly different obviously it's not for number seats because you're not anticipa set yeah I don't we go back and figure it out but I don't have so how do we answer this if we don't have the answers to the question well after the board's done asking questions of the applicant then we're going to have to open up the meeting to the public when all the questions and statements have been offered and answered and repeated a couple times um somebody will make a motion and sorry in the P application when that say the occup okay I'm sorry then let me finish what I was saying someone will make a motion to approve or deny and if there's a motion to approve it will be with conditions I can help you guys frame that and perhaps one of the conditions would be and even though it's a gravel parking lot there will be bumpers there's $50 bumpers that delineate spaces and um the parking cannot exceed X you know whatever the the ordinance says Okay so we also talked about you would mentioned you have to consider what it was when they purchased it what the use and the impact on the community when they purchased it it's pretty small as you said there not many people showing up to play whatever game you mentioned can ask my grandmother played it never heard it so here now we can take that in consideration is that true statement based on based on its known use for the last five years yes but keeping in mind with the parking lot construction it's a very narrow engineering issue does the city have an ordinance requiring that it be paved I think I've heard no does pine lands or any other government agency require that parking lot to be paved the answer is no so unless there's some indication that and I I think my number was 1,500 men a night coming to play Canasta which means they're Tak taking that gravel parking lot and there's so much traffic they're making divots and it's sinking in places and there's really bad flooding during storms conditions with regard to or considerations I should say with regard to whether or not you're going to Grant the requested waiver from what they said they were going to do you got to be careful about that you can't say you got PVE it because you think that that might not you but anyone thinks that that might deter the problems that the city may have we need to address the actual other problems and not the parking well Paving and parking are two different things I think bring up a very legitimate point about parking but the paving might be a different issue for the reasons engineering reasons that and to your point the the number the in inadequacy of the parking lot as to the number of stalls isn't impacted by whether it's paved or not so I think that while that's relevant to the application and how the facility functions I don't know that it's relevant to Paving lot only so many cars are going to fit in that lot whether it's paved or not and um you know excessive traffic in it um is going to be governed by how many cars fit once it's full P people stop ping into it so there is a separate problem of overflow parking to the street but whether the lot is paved or not I don't think impacts that specific problem that makes sense so I think Mike's idea requesting um that the Stalls be delated on the assist diss plan to reflect the number of stalls that we anticipate having um and then having that discussion with the applicant as to whether Park number of parking spaces is adequate for the events that they're hosting I think that's a separate conversation that's so is the is your point still intending on running this out to the public for weddings and parties and everything else or is it going to be used strictly for church purposes what is the future inent there there's a there's a comingling in in that concept as far as whether it has a church related party or gathering so uh that that's one part of the answer the other part of the answer is yes I think that they intend upon continuing to have weddings there uh have uh meetings there uh and obviously they're going to have different amounts of people attending them um and we are not really you know I guess prepared with our engineer to start to address changes that this board might be considering um based upon the history of this on making site making modifications to your conditions uh when granting the prior approvals so let me ask you something Mark um because I think a legitimate issue or question has been asked with regard to if the board envisioned that when you came back with plans for the pay parking lot and um keeping in mind what the 2017 application was and the representations made and I'm I'm making up a crazy example for illustration purposes you would agree that if the proposal was to put an acne on the spot we know how many people come in and out of an acne you got to have a certain size parking lot are you comfortable going forward knowing that an issue with regard to the amount of um people that might be coming to the site on any given night and the Overflow parking do you do you want to do you want to talk to your engineer about how many parking spaces are needed for that size building and how many you can fit in this new gravel proposed lot my client's been my client's been put uh deprived of revenue from that property for the last five months so uh I'm only making sure you have an opportunity to put everything on the record you want well I I haven't heard any it would require quite Frank from our point of view that if you want to make modifications to the conditions of the approvals that were granted five years ago based upon the experience that you've had over the last five years then that you should be eliciting some factual testimony uh and proofs brought before this as to where is there a problem or there's not a problem I I do Mark I'm not going to argue with you about whose obligation it is to provide proofs I was just offering because I think the question was a legitim one about how much parking do you have to provide I asked our engineer he he said what he said you said what you said but okay no the answer is no the answer is I think we have sufficient parking but that's our point of VI okay I have a question you just mentioned that they have been deprived of five months of Revenue why did it take five years to come up with the idea that it was too expensive to PVE the parking lot because the uh I know you said response from from Pinelands was rendered in the PO of 2023 so it took Pine lands five years to respond back the facts on the the facts on the record already are earlier that Ryan already testified or testified offered that the after the 17 approval an application was provided to Pion lands within the six-month period of time but it was deficient it was not it was not complete and was never deemed complete by Pilot yeah so they didn't do their paperwork so it's not piland's fault then they just deemed it incomplete so I mean that's like me filling out a job application and forgetting to put my name on I it's my own fault this is a nonprofit organization that does not that has a limitation on how much funds that it's capable of spending on building a parking lot that they hope to be able to construct lo and behold as piland says we need more studies done we need more soil analysis done they go back to their engineer their engineer says I require x amount of dollars to do those studies uh those things start to total up and eventually they got let drive of of the ability to uh raise the money to pay for the application plus the practicalities that they're coming to realize their Engineers telling them that it's impractical to put it on that property so they've abandoned that effort you want to say that that's their fault and therefore make some sort of uh appropriate action against them I guess you can try to do that I think that would be extremely unfair unwise we came here with an application pursuing to your statute that talks about 17027 B the land use board on acting on an application site plan approval has the power to Grant waivers when under this chapter it's impractical unnecessary or will exact an undue hardship upon the developer because of particular conditions pertaining to the land in question as your engineers Testify the land in question will not uh contain a par a paveed parking lot and all the storm water management infrastructure that has to go with it so yes there's a there's a uh undue hardship being exacted on my client for them to fulfill their dream of basically being able to put a parking a paved parking lot there I don't think the issue really at this juncture is a parking I don't think that's what he's saying Mark you got paragraph 8 of the 2017 resolution I'm going to read it into the record because I I really am trying to focus this so we can move on to the next question the public offer testimony following comments if any kenat Covington who lives across the street from the site along St Louis Avenue spoke in favor of the proposed use specifically she stated that she has attended a number of events on the site over the years and she'd much rather see the building in use than vacant with for sale signs further she was initially concerned about routinesskin but after hearing who is purchasing the building being applicant she feels everything will be kept under control finally she added the guests of the site should be instructed to park in the parking lot Manny Ortiz echoed M Covington's remarks regarding parking so let's move away from the paving issue let's move away from that the if there's if there's overflow parking that's going on the street that's interrupting the neighbors then the city has resources to either B parking or to restrict this restrict this client this restrict this property owner from having uh more than x amount of people attending with vehicles I will respectfully disagree and go back to my Acme example you can't come in as an applicant and say we're going to have 10 people a night and therefore a parking lot holds 30 is more than adequate and then the board members are just asking based on the experience from 20 the your client usage of the building from 2017 through now if there is a parking issue do we not have an obligation just to revisit it it's not about the paving so I think we' beat that that that's your prog to do so I'm just saying tonight would not be the approach time to do it because because Mark going to disagreed we we need to move on to another question the board has a right to ask questions about the property's usage I mean they do understand that but to make changes without providing my client an opportunity to be able to offer contrary testimony to what's been heard this gentleman is not testifying no one's testified yet except your client right they're asking about the adequacy of parking lot even if it's not going to be paid leave for the okay great and so that's that's that's what's on the record so let why don't John John are you done well at some point I'd like to make some recommendations to some use changes but I don't know what the proper time is for that let Mr Keener ask his question and then we should open it up to the public my question is to M haw um if I went to rent the building if I wanted to rent it for function uh is there a requirement that you would give me to how many people could go into the building yes um as for the at Harbor City Fire Marshal there's a tag on the door so in the main hall 200 people okay in the bar area 50 so those are the guidelines that we follow when we go go through with people to tell them this is how many people you allow can't go now how do you monitor that when I come in with my 300 me is there a way that you monitor that and control it if 300 people come instead of seting for the 200 I don't have I don't have enough tables and chairs to fit 300 people I have enough for up to 200 and most the time when people set up we're there for the beginning part of the setups let them know here are the tables here are the chairs um things but there are people there that watch what's going on to their point before not necessarily watch but when you know when we first turn the building over we're usually there to let them know this is where this is this is where that is you know let them know how everything work how to turn on the lights this is the back door the parking lot use the ramp if you have someone who needs to use the handicap so we're there in the beginning part just U walking through how this is how you close at the end of the day things that my question is based on parking because if you have 200 people the parking lot and some spots on the street might be adequate but if they over and supersede the requirement of how many people can be in the building then that's probably what's causing the neighborhood problems you know just a statement I'm sorry what is the capacity of the building said 250 25050 yeah is it 200 plus 50 in the bar or 200 total I no it's 200 in the call area and then it is 50 but like most parties when when I'm going to host a party on my application it asks how many people are attended so usually I know what it's what the entire party is going to consist of so two 250 250 250 yeah so I'm I I did my math with um 200 and that means that we would need at least 40 parking spots there at five people per car I drive a Corvette so I can only fit two so that would mean that you know you don't have a lot of I would need my own parking space for two rather than five do we have the space there for 40 cars no I actually just ran the numbers your ballpark capacity is about 30 so you have about 8.3 people per approximate Park that's without using correct just within the par yes that's just based on the the full length dimension of the lot the lot's 150 feet deep a standard parking space is 9et wide so that works out to 16.3 you obviously can't park the right on the sidewalk curve right very back on the Alley sometimes they do well I'm sure because only fit 30 there um but and it's not the L it so right but that's that's said a proximately and to your point before if it was paid it would be less than yeah because you would lose some of the site to stor management so make the how about the other side of the building on the the side between the house and the building yeah it's a an empty lot could could that be used for [Music] paring not the grassy area that different aspect so I wouldn't want to commit it to but if people want to use it I I don't tell them you know well I'm not talking from an engineering point of view that's Ryan but from a legal point of view now we're talking about site plan you know the applicant didn't come here asking to amend his site plan exactly they're asking that this board based on the old approval Grant a waver of site plan so if this board thinks that the parking situation is adequate and working well you'll take that into consideration if not you'll take that into consideration question if somebody was to put on the application that they're going to have 300 people attending the party that's not I don't [Music] have well that's the only standard that we have to go by right now isqu is the occupancy of the building any other board members I just have one more question so I understand very well that we are dealing with the aring and I understand very well that cannot be done according to all of the um discussions that we've had tonight so if they are granted a um the variance that they want or the the motion that they are asking for does that mean that they will get a CO and then business as usual that's my question yes or no the code officer will only know that the planning board said they don't have to pave the parking right so if if we if that is granted then they can continue with business as usual that's up to the code officer I know nothing about any other issues that might be in that office if the if the conditions the existing conditions are violated the code enforcement orer can site can site them for violating violating your conditions that's that's within their power to do the code enforcement officer can certainly do their job they enforce the provisions and the conditions passed by your land of course and the property maintenance code course well that's great GL answer for question that's it before I go to the public is there anyone else from the board at this time so ladies and gentlemen I'd like you to open this application up for public comment is there anyone from the public that would wish to speak on this application yes sir sir you could speak from your sheet if you wanted to just that's up to you no please not okay we we need close the microphones and well I don't want I don't want to be redone no you have no sorry you have to come up I'm sorry you'll need to be swor come in you have to gets sworn in and you need to state your name so raise your right hand do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth yes okay you can put your hand down and what is your name my name is William Hawks and where do you reside 16 Tower Avenue at hover Township New Jersey great thank you okay all right um I don't want to be redundant because my wife basically offered the testimony and answer the question answer um I just uh reiterate the fact that uh we're only talking about this parking lot because when we moved into the area and assumed the property we sincerely with everything that we've always done down through the years in terms of our community uh involvement uh our church may be a deacon in church and all that stuff like that we just wanted to provide an extension uh to the the the work that we already do that we've already been doing for many years so we were able to acquire this home in that Spirit when we came out here I just wanted to say okay we want to be good neighbors we want to have a nice place uh as you see in the few years that we've owned it we didn't have to paint it but we put a nice paint job on on the building um you know it's been a place where people have been able to come and and you know and feel comfortable um and I said you know to further that we we would like to do a parking lot the same as if I moov next door to one of you and and I said okay I want to plant roses one day and I want to do this and I want to make it nice that was the spirit if you any few of you were here that's the spirit I'm offer this park I in I did not know again again I'm trying not but I can't help it I did not know that even on the application they saidwell how much do you think that it would cost to do the parking lot I've been around a block a Deon at my church I you know business and all of that so I said you know maybe $15,000 something like that I didn't you know we spent the money to to enlist uh um theand engineering they did what they were supposed to do they came out there and did what they were supposed to do you know and it end up being this great big thing but we did our due diligence I want I do want you to know that because we would like to see this moved out even know it's been a gravel parking lot been built since 1955 I believe somewhere around there and you know so nobody ever asked us when they when the only thing again it came up was had to do before we could even open the door was to put a handicap ramp there which we did immediately that was you know cost intensive if you will you know this is our first Endeavor in something like this but we did it because it was a requirement the parking lot pads for the handicap we did it again uh to make it even more nicer I like to see the park paved that was the spirit of all of this and so now that you see that it's not cause effective and it it came up a couple years it took me five years yes took five years we had a coic in there every time my my wife went to do the uh the the the new temporary TC or every three months Days Every 90 days she offered a documentation of everything that the engineer told her or pilins told her so the fact that it dragged on because anything that goes on a long time you want to know why we didn't just one day say okay this has been five years she would take it to Donna I believe and it would actually say what the status was at that particular juncture in there we don't have this we don't have that but it wasn't because we didn't do our due diligence you know we spent money that we didn't have for this engineer and all of that you know I don't want to speak derogatory of the engineer or anything I don't want to go down that road but we did our due diligence so I want that kind of be understood as opposed to because I've heard it a couple of times well why did it take five years because it took five years it took five years but that wasn't as a result of us dragging our feet or anything like that we we Enlisted the engineer again we Enlisted the pilots again we had a coic but we offered the documentation and everything every three months five years and just coming you called us out it's been five years shut your doors wasn't nothing like that so I guess that's all I got to say Thank you Mr Hawk but uh we we continue to renew the tcos because yes we thought that we were going to make progress but as as a board and you know to put this application to rest and the and the co and all that it it has to come to a head sooner or later so app that that's that's so that's why we're here now to try and you know how long could we possibly continue to keep issuing TC no no I I I told so you know we tore the scab off and and now and now here we are and and we're going to get I'm glad I'm glad we're here at this point because like I said this couldn't go up forever but you know I just kind of want you to have some insight because you're residence as well and you kind of want to know what's going on in your city you know what I mean but we came to to to as earlier testimony had suggested U that she went back in in 2017 we came to help enhance the city you know what I mean so after all of this we still want to continue to be that good neighbor that we already started out to be I heard some testimonies saying that they had all these complaints and this and that the other and all of that we haven't heard about them we wasn't served with anything I got two calls you know and I not talking too much but I got two calls in five years saying something about noise and they told me this and I'm I'm know expert on any of this but they told me they said well you get three or something like that three or four within six months or something like that then you could be issued a citation something like that you never issue three three uh uh complaints never so Mr Hawks let me let me ask you a question so we we appreciate that that we're trying to improve the property and you know I I recognize that that the bill is in much better shapee than it than it was you you you you folks have done a lot to it so you know it's a small town and everybody knows one another and as board members now we have limited powers here okay other than to sitting here applications and and try to make both sides happy uh so but we hear a lot of feedback from residents and now I can't offer this as testimonial because it's hear sh or whatever but uh the the the the the big thing that's on people's mind is because of of events that have occurred there that not the fault of your organization at all or the people having the event uh they're they're concerned now you know the parking is one thing people come you know you can park on a public Street there's there's no reason that you can't do that and it it does in the neighborhood but parties have been going on at this place for for many many years but when there's when there's firearm discharges and stuff like that going on people are really concerned now we're limited it we really can't talk about all this stuff right here but these are the these are the things that that our neighbors or whatever that are bringing us now we haven't heard other members of the public speak now I'm I'm only telling you our perspective as board members that we have we have to weigh all this so uh you know we wanted to be a safe neighborhood and and it it seems to be a pretty well-run organization but I I think we need a little more reassurance on on your part that uh you will make an effort to have someone on site while these events are taking place I don't think they need to make an effort I think it's in here I understand that and and I know that it can be enforced by the code enforcement official but it's not the same thing uh because we don't have control over the code enforcement officer and that's not Mr Hawk's fault uh but these are the things that are that are on people's mind absolutely and uh you know they all had they were all noticed you know to come if they had anything to say and Absolut and they're not going to differentiate between what they're feeling and what the purpose is for the board to be here tonight as far as the parking lot and the paving of the parking lot uh but this is what's on people's minds and and people are uncomfortable in their neighbor neighborhood when events are going on not because of the noise and all that I mean in all fairness I I I read the the the police activity and there was calls for noise and all that and there wasn't one time when whoever they spoke to didn't comply and turn the noise off right so that that that happened the unfortunate events that happened if there's somebody from the building there that could get stopped before the the neighborhood's disrup well as we evolved into this thing Mike I get that what the law enforcement nor code enforcement knew that that was part of the resolution that was part of the agreement that to do that so uh that they that now now they know uh and listen we don't want to write citations and do all that kind of stuff there it it's it's a good it's a good use for the building as long as it's managed right but the the the public and the neighbors need that assurance that you know we're going to we're going to manage it better well only thing I can say again and you're absolutely right but we we if you will we we live there too so we have a a commonality we have an interest understood and and that's why we made it our business to do improvements that we we didn't have to do and all that other stuff to your point to your point when when that unfortunate incident happened and I don't want to minimize it it happened one time and of course one time is too many of course it happened in our Park lot it was at a repass so again to earlier testimony that I heard um it wasn't a wedding it wasn't a party it wasn't it was a rep somebody was burying their loved one somebody came from out of town so of course that's like the least likely place that you would think anything like that would happen and of course not to not to try to not to try to split hairs or anything like that but if if it was a shooting maybe a month ago right down the street and then I think a couple of maybe a year ago something was shooting around the Wawa so things happen things happen and again I'm as concerned about these things to the public as you are because I live there too I have an establishment there we've have we have an investment in that so so again I I'm not trying to to to to be like oblivious to the concerns of anybody here or anybody from the public or this that the other but I do kind of just want to offer a little bit of insight of our thinking as well because we live here too when when that happened that unfortunately Happ the first thing did is I reached out to you and I won't you know I don't have to like name names or anything like that but I reached out I said what can we do what can we do what can we do do you need us to do this do you need this and of course because you know legalities and all of that I was you know said you know we can't we can't speak on it because blah blah blah blah blah so what I'm saying is we've always wanted to be in compliance we've always wanted to uh hear feedback but we always wanted to be fair we want as fair and as and and as um we want you to be as that give us the same considerations as well Mr I'm just gonna offer this and I'm sorry um this all wonderful testimony but really part of the application and support we need to we need to and I don't know how much you guys stay in line with time limitations but other members of the public who aren't part of the application do understood but I would like Mr to be able to finish his yeah thank you I'm sorry if you want you can stand too no say unless you have any more comments thanks okay and anyone else from the public wish to speak on this app Mr chairman good evening Ernest Cory Atlantic City New Jersey hold on you know the rules Mr Cory Carol goloff at your disposal raise your right hand just did I know but I didn't swear you in you got it do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth yes now put your name and address on the record for the record Ernest D Cory senior Atlantic City New Jersey nice to see you sir so a pleasure L and gentlemen man good evening to everyone uh listen I come tonight in support of the appet listen I get it um in the business in ATL City we understand how neighbors complain stuff happens in the communities um when we have a business family business who trying to make trying to make stuff happen in the communities as Mr Hawks has indicated um they've been around with the radio station stuff they do in the communities I thought it was very important for me to come tonight and support them why is because I've had the to use the hall as well again for weddings for Reps for parties Etc and so we found a place to be very clean very nice uh right hospitable yes we can talk about the parking lot the lot is what the lot is right the building is what the building is and at the end of the day it's always run from provings right it's always opportunity to make changes do things see day differently but at the end of the day listen I believe they're good neighbors and I am sure that no matter what happens at the end of the day safety is number one priority to them to you to the city and certainly to your residents right and so I get it I'm down in Atlantic City yall know everything happens what happens in Atlantic City happens everywhere right good bad or IND different the fact of the matter is is that people are trying to do stuff in the community to help people right people's not always fortunately to go to big Halls to have whatever events they have a sweet 16 again whether it's your repass whether it's your birthday um it's probably and I can't speak for their pocket I don't speak for nobody's Pocket mine is the fact of the matter is is that listen you provide a service you put it out there when you close five six months that's that's that's the impact on your pocket right and so whether it's the security issue and I'm sure being Miss HW Mr Hawks will take another look at that and whatever decision they need to make with this city to make sure it's safe because if they're safe you're safe if you're safe they safe the community it's all about being the partner in the community and so what happens is you got to be good neighbors we going to agree to disagree on some issues and at the end of the day guess what how do we make it better and I come tonight today tonight ladies and gentlemen ask you for your support listen there's some rules and regulations going to have to buy by that probably wasn't not in effect when they brought the building good you make changes you move forward and you live by the rules and the regulations um and there's a whole other ways that you can handle it uh but I wasn't going to say actually nothing it's past my bedtime but I could not leave here tonight without speaking on their behalf because I came with the intent to support them I didn't know it was going to be this long the fact of the matter is it's been a lot of discussion a lot of good questions has been asked on both sides of Y and so at the end of the day we the you know Minds come together and say how do we make it work for everybody um and so tonight Ladi and gentl I come again in support of this act hoping and praying that you can see the same same thing again if changes need to be made you make the changes and um again I don't think they're going anywhere they made an investment in the city of a haror um you know and at the end of the day it's a familyowned business um and they've been known throughout the community so again I come tonight and supported this applicant and hope you would consider that application thank you so very much thank you Mr por for your comment okay ma'am raise your right hand do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth yes you put your hand down what's your name Laur Laura spell last name uht and your address 240 Chicago thank you um go ahead yeah I live on the opposite side of the alleyway behind Beacon Hall um in terms of what was Theon night which is the parking pad situation I really I have any problem with that I don't really care like it's not not an issue for me if they have you know they park on the grass Park in gravel or anything my main issue is that like less than 20 feet from where I live there was a very very very tragic event and um I don't think it was appropriately handled in a way that was would uh keep everybody in the community safe my my kids play in the backyard and you know we this is 41 I'm buying a house pretty late in my life this is my first house um and I to didn't expect to have you know um people parking within hearing distance of my house because they've been drinking too much in the parking lot um you know just the the back door getting open the entire town with the music and stuff like that and I don't think that they're being bad neighbors I think that um with proper um I don't I can't think of word right now my brain is is like completely not sorry um with proper precautions and proper security that it can be a safe place for them to continue having their events um I have been in contact with Miss fo before through text and I have like text or hey it's a little bit too noisy or the base is too deep so um and it's it's been turned down I can test to them complying with that it's just I feel like I've seen definitely more than 200 people there on occasion um and you know sometimes that's something that they can't personally control because you know people just you can come with me and stuff like that and HP in um but like I said the parking doesn't matter to me I'm just concerned about the safety of my house my children my property and as long as it's as long as they're doing stuff to like secure the property to keep it safe to keep um their their clientele safe it comes in there and has their events there I'm I'm cool I'm very cool very non-computational I just don't want it to become a place where you once the co is signed off that it becomes you know I can't think my brain is completely sorry um like partytown USA back there at 2 o'clock in the morning and for the record I don't think it's been ever that late but it has been definitely passed well the four where the noise has been kind of excessive the base really affects me I have s of hearings I'll have to put on like headphones at night but it's just if there's proper precautions being taken I'm cool if there's security and safety there I'm good um but when there's a murder like 20 fet from my house I'm not happy I don't think anybody would be I don't think any anybody in this room would want that happening behind our house um and I do apologize for how this is rambling and stuff because again it's late at night I would like to do a bit but that's all thank you thank you for your comments okay yeah yeah hold on do you swear that everything you offered tonight will be the truth yes and now what was your name Kena okay I mentioned you earlier you put your hand down thanks all right um I just want to share um some insight from back then everything and what what town are you from City I live on St Louis great and I'm sorry about that it's just for the record we need to put that stuff on um the parking situation like the parking lot being paid you know that's should be should be deter to have coer um I'm just coming up here about the parking um just think more so that people don't really realize that the parking lot is there the people will just come up to the street and just park before they go around the corner of the park so our Park be full but the parking lot still kind you know but it's always been a parking issue for years even when it was Columbus and even when hers would come and have a party once a year we know have all the trucks there so that has nothing changed that's still same thing so um they may because maybe try to direct the people to say uh um down the street is parking on the side streets then there less houses on the side streets um other than that parking is okay I'm hearing noise uh it don't affect me I'm across the street don't affect me I really hear it from my so only every now and then here here and there nothing like major but I don't live directly in front of them it's more so if somebody open the front door come out you kind of hear a little more and then it's it's not like con and with the shooting I think that was uh it was a funeral so nobody would expect that to happen and it would happen on the street of St Louis where I a person came out of town and the person came to the car and he shot him from the car and and drove off so but the the person kind of made his way to the parking lot so um I don't think we could avoided that and um yeah we all want some far as shooting scar everybody but um day I was right there so I was little nervous I did call and he was right on the scene um so I think he was he handle that got on the scene right away so um um just a few months ago or month ago it was shooting on cop outop at my door looking at for our security for something that happened on so shooting is here in this city so that's the whole city need to get taken care of so it's not just that one little part a lot of stuff has been happening in in car city period I think time and um inflation is going up everything's high so uh it's hard to everything's high now so if we going to be closed for a lot of months that's going to be hard a hard and then we'll have another abandon building sitting here nothing so um hopefully they get back on to business and they could take from what they hear from today and maybe try to improve a little bit of the security or a little of the no Ence or whatever and I think everything should be worked out work out that's all I say thank you man' thank you I come on up and get B do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth and what is your name my name is Tanaya that's actually my mother very spell Tanaya t a n i a and your last name Lam l a n h a m is and what town do you live in I live in har cross the street thank you um I would say as long as they've been operating there I've never had an issue I would like to say I honestly have more of an issue with the college kids on the corner of St Lou yeah they're parking um glass bottles like just looking at their property is just they've been more of my issue and I just wanted to say I hope we're focusing more on that then just like the parking situation they have with their building and things like that um I have called in with them and I haven't really seen much of a change um and like I said I live there I don't really hear them across the street when they have their parties certain parties in different cultures you know they do tend to get a little louder you can't really control that it's like how can you control 200 people sometimes but I really don't think there should be that should be the reason why they should stop their business and stop you know supporting their family but I definitely just wanted to make sure I made mention of the college kids on the end of the corner their property is like trashed um It's actually an ey sore um but I really think that should be a bigger focus in terms of what we have going on want to enforce parking for that building you know we should definitely focus on them too and make a mention of that may I speak to that uh chairman pet and attorney may I speak to that we have been on them quite severely they have the um Association that their fraternity fraternity they are not permitted now to have any more parties because of the complaints that were leveled against them and there have been many I've sent many pictures to code enforcement about it because I live right around there too and I pass it every day so they have been made to clean up and the the that's a I had my two-year-old grandson all day that's nothing um but they have been made to clean up it doesn't look like it should there's a broken window there's something boarded up there's trash laying all over but until the code enforcement you know they knock on their door at least once a week so it probably will and it has gone to court also so once those fines and penalties are leveled it goes to the court which I just found out today that the court will decide what happens and what the penalties are but as far as we are concerned I'm on that like like a big bir because it's terrible come home we'll come visit her and there'll be like broken glass and I'm stepping on my Oney old and I know it's coming from them and I'm like that's not even an issue across the street it's more so right there since they've been there yeah no we're we're definitely working on that and there was a gigantic party which I'm sure you're aware of that was broken up by the police and that was the last straw there had to be at least 300 would say 500 kids there and it was it was horrible and I would never want to live next to that and that's why I'm so focused on that because it's a disaster and um so that's being taken care of hopefully you know we'll keep on it and keep sending the code will go over there when they're supposed to but yes that is being worked on thank you that's all I wanted to just adjust because I notic no one mentioned it and I it's a real big problem on that but thank you thank you yes sure hi raise your right hand do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth yes you put your hand down what's your name Christopher Haw Christopher Hawks and what town do you live inity great thank you so much um as everybody know tonight I'm not hold up too much at y time they talk about that um some things that I just wanted to speak on um as far as the parking goes um I can't say I'm the son that lives next door 231 St Louis um me personally I've given all of our neighbors all my neighbors across the street right next to the hall I've given everyone um Co and I actually tell them one the nights like listen it's going to be a party T night put your comes out early or would you like me to put your cones out so I do try to take some type of initiative when it comes down to the parking because like I said I live right next door and there's been times where I had to park down the street you get what I'm saying um so I do try to take some type of initiative but at the end of the day you know you can only control it as much as you can control it and we do do absolutely the best job that we possibly can to control the parking to control the area and all that stuff um when it comes down to security I'm not just in the house I'm literally I'm walking around the building there's sometimes inside the building because nine times out of 10 whoever is having the event at the hall some type of way either I know them they know my parents and they always say some type of way hey know come get play you know just come say hello you know things of that nature so I am in the vicinity like a lot I'm in there before I'm in there after I'm in there during um I do have children that live with me um besides me being a coach out here I coach uh the Ed Carver City Crusaders I coach the Ed Carver City um basketball team as well my kids they do live with me so of course I want nothing but safety so you know we're going to do everything in our absolute power to keep the community safe to keep our neighbors safe just to happy NE I just wanted to thank you Mr is there anyone else from the public yeah sure do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth yes I do thanks and what's your name Joseph G and Hopper gei g i s n h o f f e r thank you I know that's been discussed that probably has nothing to do with this application for waiver or whatever um I served as a member on the planning board when I was on city council I served many years on the planning board and the OWN owning board so I know a lot of the complaints they have and I have a lot of complaints about the property come under the purview of code enforcement and not what's presented here tonight there a lot of complaints noise trash people smoking pot leaving themselves in a lot drinking trash left afterwards blowing into people's Yards parking across people's driveways mine so that we can't even get out of our own driveway that's all Cod I understand that that has nothing to do with this tonight um but what I would say is that the parking is what it is uh M of the kns of Comm this for I don't know 30 years 35 years we several times had the parking lot regraded fill brought in which I think you did also couple years ago or whatever the parking lot is what the parking lot is um it's pretty much impervious the water runs off if it's pav it's only going to run off more uh at least maybe a little bit of it so it's into the ground but not much I know from having lived across the alley for 66 years there's clay Hots and Poots of clay and no but all other complaints aside the parking lot is what it is I think we beat the dead horse here the W anyone else from the public second call I'm sorry sh if you want to speak do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth yes thanks and what's your name Kenneth Kenneth you said Ken k n e p p u r n e l l thanks and you're a vity too yes thank thank you so much about a half a block from um these are two of the best people you can find we've been raised in church we've been in church all raised our kids up in church went through a harv city schools when he first got the building we all came in that building we had pray we prayed in that building we prayed that we can be a blessing to the community that some of the chid the kids that was in the community will come out and and we we have an Outreach in a har City that we're working on now we're doing things to help this community the Hawks is opening up that Hall been a blessing we go there I have my 6th birthday party there we um most of the events are Church events repass there's once in a while a negative thing go along in there but that's a to see somebody just spoke was three killings or three shootings in the last couple months I think it was so it's been shooting shooting happen nobody wants it but it does happen we um we we're we're trying to be a blessing to this community and with that Hall there I heard a lot of negative things about it but I only know good things about it and I'm only a block away from it so I do ride by every once in a while to check on it for them there there's negative things there's good things but the whole thing is the whole thing of this matter is is just do right just do right by each other this is all it's about do all right judge him as you would judge your own brother let's just do right by each other God Is Watching thank you sir is there pardon me is there anyone else from the public wish to speak on this application if there being none other no other public uh comment board members any other questions comments is there I'd like to add to this I mean obviously the parking lot's the parking lot but H spoke about their Spirit of the building was and their Spirit but the reality in the spirit what your intent was aren't lining up everywhere and I'd like to add that the Restriction be 10 a.m. 10 p.m. on the noise here as a requirement of this I think that the dors who aren't here to speak but we have spoken to all of us over the last five years I think it's this board's responsibility to work on the behalf of everybody in the community not just the applicant I'd like to add that to part of the requirement chairman I could just make a brief statement closing statement I think the neighbors and the promis you heard from the neighbors are are heartfelt I think they express really the sentiment of people who live close by to it we hear some positives and negatives and the negatives are some negatives that you can almost attribute to any business that's ongoing whe it's trash on the street too much noise or but my clients have acknowledged that there are conditions affirm that those conditions are imposed upon them and they to adhere to it um I could say that you know you live and learn you know they they didn't expect any of these problems or complaints when they opened up they opened up in good spirit that they were going to have a a good business and now that these things are over time coming out then they got to step up their game and and do some things that are going to elay the concerns of this board and this Township and they're all legitimate conditions we're not not aru aring that they weren't I've suggested to the Hawks that you know as far as the security to be on site you know it's maybe it's not enough in the eyes of the board or uh or the public that you should just have your son nearby to poke his head you know if you're going to have to book a group that's going to be paying for the use of the room you build in the cost of a security guard and the security guard then is on site from the beginning end of the event and I don't think they have a problem with doing that they have to adjust and they know that and I think that they're willing to do that it would be they're an asset to the community it would be an asset to keep them as a member of your community and that's why we're asking the Dre Grant these thank you can I say one thing I'm in full agreement with the parking lot I don't know why it was ever in there to begin with to be honest with you the paving but can I just ask an honest question about the alcohol issue because it is an issue and in October uh 17 it wasn't supposed to be alcohol and I know it's been an ongoing thing but what is your position now on the Alcohol just just to throw it out there just so we know and we're all clear we all understand because there has been a lot of concern she about alcohol being sered on property who sering the alcohol how is that being addressed have license that commission to serve alcohol do either of you have the answer when we when we um purchased a property and there was a a bar a liquor license Li license that we could have purchased but we told them I'm sorry from the N Columbus that we could have applied purchase we told them because most of our events for instance or spread the gospel events that we don't need a lior license we went on to tell them though we went on after the fact of to ask if we have an event where they want to serve alcohol and that's kind of where it came in we were advised um that a person could apply for a one day event certificate um to be able to serve alcohol that would protect basically our interest and their interests as well in the advance of something happen so we've been doing that we've been uh we've been sending them to a a site every time we book a party if it's going to serve alcohol we make the people apply for this one day event certificate I think it's like $125 or something like that and they app bu for it and it has uh different things on there how many people will be at that party for instance will they be alcohol Ser will you be serving the alcohol or will they be bringing their own all this is on the certificates and that has from what we understood has sufficed for the past five years so had we not known that wasn't suffice because again our events which are many personal uh events um and community events or something we don't serve alcohol so again right when am I answer your question yeah and and I also just to add to that that if there is a catered event the people that are catering the event should hold a license if they are in fact serving it correct I mean I'm sure you were told that also doesn't that license have to be through the city um they just have to have as far as me told me they have to have a liquor license I'm assing well the only reason I'm asking is because if we go back to the ordinance on uh 2 in 2017 is should this should be stricken from anything new if this is the case and that's why I'm bringing that up it says um applicant would apply and obtain a liquor license which we just discussed until then no liquor would be served the site so I just want to establish served on the site without a license license so I just want to establish that you know we are serving liquor well hold on there's a I want to make sure we're speaking the same language there's a difference between a liquor license and a liquor permit right so does this site currently have a liquor license no exactly so the question is does everybody understand that before any liquor is served at the site whoever is running the event has to get an ABC permit right Ian be nice to clarify that because that's the Assumption they're operating and that's what I'm sorry what if the person the group applies for and obtains the one- day license to serve alcohol at the wedding or whatever it is is that sufficient but what I'm saying is it's just not Jing with what the the original thing was and it should not be in anything new it should the wording or whatever should be changed because you are not seeking your own liquor license so the guests obtain the liquor license and liquor will be served on the property so you understand that that's an obligation that your client always has they okay they do I guess I'm cling the question but the city find that objectionable if if that's the procedures would would the city find what objectionable can a person who attains the one- day permit to serve alcohol and that alcohol then be consumed at the yeah I I don't think it's our perview to decide that I just wanted to say it was in the original it was in the original 2017 agreement but the way it's worded it says whether on-site purchase or via bring your own policy applicant will need to apply and obtain a valid liquor license it doesn't say valid liquor permit so we just want to make sure that's clear what's I think there's a fine distinction because it says prior to that says should applicant wish to serve liquor on site I think the distinction is the applicant is not serving liquor their tenants are serving and tenants are a one day permit for that when they do that or they're supposed to be Oren by by extension they're the no if if they ran out the facility they're not serving alcohol in the facility they're just renting the facility and then so they're it'd be different if they were running a bar and they rented out a hall with bar service then they'd be serving liquor and they would need liquor license for the facility okay if they're running out the hall and the tenants in the hall are bringing liquor and serving it to their guests that is the tenant who needs their own one day liquor license in order to do that so they're tenant for each event would be required to have the ABC permit that's that's what they're saying they provide that information it's like 125 clarify that in this I mean resolution as well the prior sentences use will be by invite only and liquor will not be served on site period it doesn't say by who I know it just says it's not served that that section the word is confusing but then after that it says when the applicant wishes to serves I mean if you read that to me there shouldn't be any on site period well see that's what we have to CL well I don't know if we can clarify that because I think that's just is what it is State it's just yeah it's just that it should not to fix that it should not be in this like that we didn't put it in there the applicant did I believe correct there's first of all there's way too much cross talking [Music] my first meeting I'm trying not to be too mean um I was going to wait until the public section was done and Mr fredman was done with his closing comments and then when we had a discussion about what the motion should be I was going to make these comments so before I delve into them is there anything else you wanted to say Mark in closing no there is okay [Music] all right I don't know why this is I think he gave me a bum Outlet City's Outlet there's one over here that's all right you one why we always had two two computers going yeah here okay this is this is a complicated animal that we're dealing with um this applicant let me say this way it's a complicated animal when it comes to the conditions if you're going to approve the application and let me say first I always like motions to be in the positive that because it's very confusing when it comes to voting if you say I make a motion to deny the application and the person who says yes or no they don't know whether they're approving or not approving the application so I always like motions to be in the positive I move to approve the application in this instance it would be to wave site plan Grant the application to Grant uh to wave site plan approval and therefore um not having to PVE the parking lot then that way you know whether or not you're if you're voting yes you're agreeing with the request and if you vote no you're voting against the request what's tricky really really tricky and this could be a law school exam I'm not kidding question it could be a law school exam question this application is really a continuation of a zoning board application I'm not even sure I had my head wrapped around that real clear before we started and we really got into the nitty-gritty the applicant came to the board seeking zoning board approval for a use variance and we all know that site plan would you generally come before the planning board unless there's a use variance involved then it's got to go before the zoning board so what has struck me tonight which I think the Board needs to take into consideration when deliberating and having your motion discussion the applicant had to come to the board for a use variant because it wasn't deemed a permitted use because it's not a house of worship and it wasn't deemed a permitted continuation of what the Knights of Columbus were doing so they had to ask the board can we do this new thing on site what was that new thing having staff meetings related to a radio station and I don't have to read the whole resolution to you but that was the thrust and part of what they wanted to do was rent the hall out to people who wanted to rent it for whatever purpose funerals repasses meetings weddings just neighborhood [Music] Gatherings what the board has to decide tonight is whether or not the language in the resolution that says and this really struck me as I was hearing everybody going back and forth and I hear the struggle you know I get it it's a hard question but there's language in the original resolution that says in the specific conditions number six applicant will not May will apply to the board for full site plan review within 30 days after receiving approval from the pin lands commission what that means is the board that sat back in 2017 knew the applicant was coming back to say this is what the site will look like to support what we're doing here and what we say we're doing here and we've heard lots of great things about the applicant of what they're doing and what they want to do but we've also heard things that causes the board concern and I don't need to reiterate that you've all heard it and you've heard some not a lot but you've heard some concerns from neighbors saying these things are a concern to us and if we can throw in what the college kids on the corner have to do that would be great to get that in there too um so we need a motion that says that the application to wave site plan approval or review rather and from the obligation to pave the parking lot conditioned upon and then we need to come up with a list of conditions that the board wants to see then we need a second and then we need discussion and because it's our first night here guiding you the discussion is really important because we can't make up the conditions for you and we cannot come up with the reasons why you want the conditions and Grant or deny the application I'm happy to answer any questions about what I just said but it's a really important distinction about waiting site plan knowing that it had been a condition of the last application in light of what you've heard tonight both pro and con so you got a job ahead of you because whichever way you go we're going to need to explain on the record why so if if if the board just clares myself if the board is fine with waving Paving the parking lot and waving the site plan because they obviously never got Finance approval so that's a default then we can also list any other conditions we may want to impose yes and if you go astray too far astray of what is reasonably related to to this application I'll let you know that so I'll let you know the two things and you can come up with the verbage go ahead what if the board doesn't wave the full sight plan what's the next step for them well then application tonight is denied yep but the the board's going to have to explain why they would deny that based on the evidence before it tonight number six but yeah but yeah go yeah but then if you go back like you're saying it's a zoning issue they're not meeting it's not just the PID that and that's something you want to address to Ryan other than pay the parking lot what other checklist items would there be to a site plan review that you had anticipated not you personally because you weren't here sure back in the day what does a haror city require for safe plan so typically for existing sites um we either entertain a waiver of site plan or um just require a fairly basic plan depicting the improvements that are being requested and are required um I mean would that include delineating the number of parking spots based on occupancy we've done that for numerous prior applicants required that they delate parking spaces even if they're not improving a lot um you know for existing pay parking lots we required that they restrike but you know all those are typical requirements in the schol so other than that what is the board not saying that they would see if there had been a sight submitted I think there was any other Chang yeah I don't I don't think that the board had requested any other information on the site plan it was just to address how the I mean it would have been the storm water management and the paving of the lot and how it was laid out um you know we want to see and if you don't do the lot you don't have to go to Pinel correct if you don't pave the lot you don't have to go to pins that was the only trigger to go there EXA they were able to do the Ada spaces and the Ada ramp without going to the Pinelands because it was less than a th square feet of new impious less than 5,000 ft of disturbance um those are the only site conditions that I can recall with the Ada spaces and the ramp which were required before they could open and then the paving of the parking lot which was required I think due to change of use we also waved not having to do Cur and sidewalk on the back or all the shrubs and bushes and beautification yeah I think we so we gred quite a few waivers as well yeah I think we we typically do not have people supplement Landscaping with the existing site unless they're doing pretty extensive Renovations um we never require a carbon subwalk on the Terrace on the front side um I think they have existing curent sidewalk and I think they replaced some sidewalk if I recall correctly um as it just close to their entrance um any anyone even for a residential house if they have noncompliance I will to replace that so um I'm sure that was required as for this as never got CC wouldn't that solve that if U if we're willing to wave the parking lot and it from what you read there it sounded like they would have to submit a site plan within 30 days once they um developed what the parking lot was going to look like to come back to us to to present it so doesn't that make it simpler if if that's part of the waiver that they don't have to do the parking lot obviously then they don't need the full site plan and that's why I asked Ryan to clarify what else would be missing if there was a checklist of 12 things that the board wouldn't be seeing that you had anticipated seeing that is a lot different than what Ryan has clarifying that if you agree that the parking lot doesn't didn't have to be paved they shouldn't have and probably now regret offering to pave it um they wouldn't have had to they wouldn't have had to go to Pinel lands so the fact that whether for whatever reason it took so long it doesn't matter at this point point right what are you really missing nothing the two important things with regard to the handicap and Ada access were done before they got their first TCO okay so are we ready to uh offer a uh a motion and then have discussion yes okay um I think so I think I think from what I've discerned from the board um that the motion should sound like this that the application seeking to be relieved of full sight plan review and as a because they are asking to be relieved of their obligation to pave the parking lot for the reasons already set forth on the record I'll put in the resolution is granted that doesn't mean that you're granting it that does not mean I'm telling you to vote Yes I'm just saying if you vote Yes you agree with what I just said if you vote no you're voting against it it's for clarity say oh conditioned upon one the applicant complying with the new or with the anticipated noise ordinance I made a change to that the new the new ordinance says 11 pm and I ask for 10 p.m. due to the history so but that's part of the terms of that's what I propos as part of being fine with the other conditions so you would like this to be your motion yes okay so the motion is to and I I'm not saying you have to vote that way but approving the relieving the applicant from submitting a full sight plan for review no longer having to pave the parking lot for the reason stated on a record complying with the anticipated new nory's violation except uh backing the time off from either midnight or 11 down to 10: on all nights yes on all nights excuse me for one second but wouldn't that be a council issue if it's an ordinance that because they're able to just asking no in the event that anyone thinks that the motion that Mr G is putting forward is not appropriate they shouldn't second it and then I'll continue to massage the language I just think that that that may be and I I'm not a lawyer and I I'm on board with what everybody's talking about here but I just think that that might be overreaching it is I gave you the the ordinance and it was 148 Das what was I don't have it only an hour I gave you the paper what is the ordinance number I suspect I suspect that whether it's in the motion or it's not in the motion if you pass an ordinance they have to comply with right but it doesn't that ordinance does not say I don't have it in front of me is what I'm saying I gave it to you it doesn't say 10 o'clock there I can't recall exactly 10 p.m. Sunday through Thursday 12 a.m. Friday and Saturday however if we have urance for curb sidewalks and other conditions this board can also wave those based on the Orit so I this is the opportunity where if the client is willing to accept those terms and we accept Mutual I'm I'm sorry to interrupt this is not a time for them to accept or not this is a time where we're making a motion that you're hoping that everyone will agree with you understand that if no one seconds your motion I'm going to reward it okay so that and to have the liquor license displayed for each event permit displayed on so that way when people show up whether it's police Cod Force anybody else they know that those Curr and conditions are being met not why don't we do it this way we seem to be at at ler head let me let me formulate the motion if somebody would like to say that's my motion then we'll go that way and I'm not but this is this is not working for me and I'm old I have a question can this board change a city ordinance because a city ordinance has to be read twice and voted on by city council so Mr G was not suggesting that we change an ordinance he was simply suggesting that the applicant agree to more stringent terms that's permitted but we're past the time of discussing things with the applicant which you should never do anyway but every board I Ever represent does it so we're we're going to go back the way Carol does things and then you guys can go from there just to be clear 12: to 8 it's uh Friday and Saturday are the hours they cannot um operate and then the rest of the week include Sunday to Thursday I guess would be 10 p.m. to 8 they're the hours that they cannot operate only the only two days we're in discrepancy here are well Friday and Saturday they're still 12:00 the way I'm seeing it so that is this is an ordinance that was read at city council and the second reading will be well we've already gained two hours John because in the original it was I I I get that just just like we you're trying to do with the front house and else trying to make it work for everybody to include the residents and to um spread the gospel now I think it's a it's a fair compromise for everyone in that in that neighborhood well in in all fairness and I don't it doesn't matter to me one way or the other but we had public testimony and I don't recall anybody Jack I sat up here for five years listening to this in public testimony so I disagree with that statement well this is the place that that the business has transacted John not on the street well that's not true I'm I'm here to represent the community regardless of whether I hear on the street we can only have test we can only vote on testimony that's before us not on your side all I'm going to suggest right now is that we are supposed to comply with Robert's Rules of Order this is discussion that should happen after a motion's made okay [Music] so the motion that someone should make is that the application to wave the prior requirement of full site plan review and to pave the parking lot after obtaining Pine land's approval is granted and the on the condition that number one obviously all the other conditions in the prior resolution are met acknowledging that prior conditions 78 have been met that the applicant acknowledges and will comply with the anticipated new noise ordinance and I'm going to end it there because everything else I've heard the board talk about tonight about having to be included in the resolution are already in the old resolution and I'll reiterate them we've heard conflicting testimony about what security is required versus what they're providing one applicant related individual said one thing another applicant related individual said another which complies and we'll just reiterate those old conditions they have to comply with them and I just say this the board just keep in mind that whatever the applicant doesn't do people who know about the violations need to reach out to either police or code enforcement that's not the board's job so that's the motion if anybody wants to make that motion you can make that motion if nobody does then we can entertain another motion I ask for two things are we the only next step is and I don't mean to cut you off sir the only next step is either somebody makes that motion I'll make the motion okay with adding that the alcohol license or permit be present on site so if someone is called and the police show up there's not one there they can put it in a police report so that would the zoning officer has some teeth to do his job I think that's important that's not really following Robert's Rules of Order but for tonight's purposes just so everybody can either we can either move on to another application or end it I'll let it go this time we don't really strict on Robert but I understand it sure the only reason I bring it up because it can get way out of control and and I I asked for the 10pf change not the ORD that's that's my motion they don't want to vote for it they don't have to that's second for c for the ordinance that Carol read that thetion and I mean for the motion I don't well I don't think I think the 10 o'clock would be deal breaker on Saturday that's what I'm saying I'd keep that out of it and get the business make my motion or not yeah either either agree with John and second the motion or don't agree with John and don't SEC and nobody seconds no we're not the no we're not to that spot yet and believe me this transcript is going to become very important potentially I suggested a motion somebody needs to make it or not and the 10 o'clock is not in is not part of the motion that I've no somebody needs to make it I can't make a mo he didn't he didn't make my motion he made a motion during discussion that's my motion I don't understand you're confusing it I'm sorry read the motion again read the motion again if I take your verbage and I add those two is my motion I think what she's saying is you would introduce that somebody would motion for it and then second it and then you during discussion would recommend those changes and those changes could either be incorporated or not is that a fair explanation care yes okay I assume the motion was we're accepting it not that there was an opportunity to add to it I'm just going to simplify it for you I make that motion without any addition to it read the motion again Carol please no that's no I just want to make sure I can do the app the motion is to that somebody needs to make is to approve the application to wave full site plan review and as a result the conditioned to pave the parking lot all the prior conditions are in full force and effect the applicant had the applicant has already agreed to to post the alcohol licensing permitting that uh is obtained so there's no harm in that so I make that motion is there a second I'll second HTS now there's a discussion now is when we could talk about modifying it I'd like to make the modification that we change the new ordinance aspect because of where it's located in the city and past history to 10 p.m on Friday and Saturday I think that's fair and reasonable is is this is this the time when I ask you uh so you're saying that just this business has to go until 10 o'clock that's what he suggested and understand it's not even I want to make sure I understand what Mr G is suggesting a noise ordinance is about sound that doesn't mean that the party can't continue until 4 a.m. as long as it's not loud well their hours of operation are listed in here anyway so it's 8 to 11: exactly 8 to 11 Sunday through Thursday and 8: to 2 a.m. Friday and Saturday that's hours of operation so people can be in the building until 2: a.m. under the anticipated ordinance they're going to be able to play music or whatever until 11: read that Mr Garf is suggesting that if anybody's disturbed by The Noise by 10 o' they can contact the police and ask them to turn the music off but even if it's not in the resolution that could still happen right up and at starting at 11 but I mean if it's abuse that's right and the one problem that I have with the 10 o'clock John is that there's other businesses on St Louis Avenue uh there there's a new one that's supposed to open soon and they would have a different time than I don't even know if what Mr Garth is suggesting with all respect is constitutional I get to that after if I heard anybody else getting on board with this you can't single out one but there's other businesses you can't do that's what I was trying to say concern it's akin to like spot zoning exactly now now my my issue with this I I think it's cleaner if we simply say that they have to comply with with all local ordinances and as far as alcohol with with State a at least they're on notice that they have to [Music] comp or you know there was some question so if there's going to be a permanent issue like they say they're not doing alcohol for their own personal stuff but if someone comes in and they're having a party and and they want to have alcohol that at least they take the steps to make sure that they are compant but that's not what their original I I know what that I know what you're saying I'm saying moving forward so then you're changing this I'm saying moving forward if we say Hey you be aware because that's something we could always say we can always say you got to be compliant with local ordinances and state law we can always say that but glad Us's motion keeps it the way you're saying I think I'm suggesting that same way he suggested that we add the language about compliance that would be in all my resolutions we have a motion in a second use will be by invite only and liquor will not be served it's still in this then is that what we're saying let me make sure I'm reading the same page you are what page are you on page three of 11 number four of the original applicant indicated or well let's read it because this is Under The Heading findings of fact and conclusions applicant indicated that the standard hour of operation proposed use would be blah blah blah blah blah use will be by invite only and liquor will not be served on site should applicant wish to serve liquor on site whether through on-site purchase or via bring your own applicant will need to apply for and obtain a valid liquor license but hold on there was other [Music] discussion okay so again first night was not here back in 2017 that is clearly limiting the applicant I don't know that and I could do some research if you want but I don't know that you can take a site any site and prohibit someone from applying to the ABC for a one one day permit and I'm sorry who was I talking to M me I'm sorry um so this says that the applicant came to you in 2017 and said we're not a liquor based place we're not a bar we're not going to do this every Sunday thing but it I don't see that limiting anybody who wants to rent out there okay yeah that that's not the way I read it if you guys people have get L um I think that's being handled right now further discussion so I just went priority for this and in any future so the board can take an ordinance and we can downgrade the ordinance requirement and that's not as you said constitutional but I can't make it ordinance more strict or set a term that's more strict than the current ordinance no the actually the opposite is true you can take a law and make it more stringent if you're a governing body you're not a governing body okay let's say the the federal government said that on a road like the White Horse plate you can do 70 a city can say no in a city you're only going to go if if it was not a federal route um they can make the speed limit lower okay they can't say screw the federal government you can blow through at 90 what you're suggesting is in a town and specifically in a neighborhood where the city is about to tell people they've got to turn their music down at 11 you want to tell one business in the neighborhood that they've got AC quiet down by 10 okay that's not I guess I guess it's I guess it's an ordinance but there's many ordinances that we give waivers to all the time so what you're suggesting is that a waiver of an ordinance and I I don't know what a waiver of an ordinance is somebody wants to build a trash Rel requirements variances okay I'm sorry um they might just get a new class after this because it's I'm confused with what we're supposed to do and what we're not supposed to do that and I take the complete blame for that my number one job is to make sure you don't get sued and what we've heard tonight is there are other businesses in the area and if you tell one business that they've got a pipe down by 10 and everybody else can be whooping it up until 11: you're going to be sued that's the easiest way I can say it okay let the phone calls I'm sorry let the phone calls happen then because it just I'm trying to make sure that everybody's here the client us the residents that there's a happy medium but if we can't we can't I don't think they've been good stewards to this community for the 5 years they've been operating um I take offense to the time that they were working in the spirit of being good stewards to the communities so whatever the board wants to do I guess is what we're going to be Stu with so we're having discussion is there any further discussion so there's a motion and second no further discussion we'll have a roll call vote May Jim Patty yes Mr Peterson yes Mr timers yes Mr Walker yes Mike Mckenna I'm gonna vote now Mr cor yes no Mr Mrs Torres you I have a yes already Mr Keener yes Mr brick he can't vot right he cut himself out about an hour and ago he's wondering why he still here show the the waiver of the parking lot and what they've asked for was accomplished stud new comp and posting of the liquor permits that may be obtained for any particular eventy folks I know that it's late but I think the Board needs to stretch their legs for five minutes and we'll come back I'm sorry to hold you guys up I know it's been a long [Music] night I don't know about [Music] you [Music] trash person [Music] looking for alter sleep list last [Music] were [Music] [Music] all right we're on Monday night every everything goes back every every problem [Music] goes [Music] [Music] still [Music] Contin to be as that's just St it so I did not issue and I was not really yeah because my my dad passed away a August 15 [Music] just for to come back and one down road too this is a Redevelopment plan ran will explain that to you no no never I'm sorry everybody long night okay uh application 20241 Lake Harver City Partners evening [Music] again on bef the applicant Egg Harbor City Partners LLC this is an application for primary and final major approval use approval and both variant connection with the establishment of 3500 approximately 3500 Square classi canvas dispensary at the subject site the property itself is located at 10 Philadelphia Avenue it's lot 319 5.01 just to orient the bo a little bit it's immediately behind the Wawa medion store recently been built on the White P the application as I stated it is for glimmer and final site plan approval along with conditional use approval these classified retail dispensaries are conditional permitted uses within the Zone the applicant's position as articulated by your planner we are in conformance with those three conditions and our planner can speak a little bit more to that during our present can I stop you Mr lario I just want to make sure procedurally we're all on the same page I just want to State for the record it's 4 before 10 we know who's here tonight I don't know the depth of your application or how many witnesses you have the room still has a number of people it looks as though there's going to be a lot of members from the public are you sure that you want to proceed knowing that it's probably going to spill into another meeting so we would like to proceed and and the reason why I feel that again this is a permitted use there's minimal variances necessary we believe that that it can be presented obviously given the late hour now presented in its entirety obviously if we hit some type of Log Jam that's a different story but we think on the whole this is somewhat of a straightforward application so we would like to proce so do you um do you guys have a a stop time that you hold to I don't we've never had a stop time we're going to finish the business until we're done okay um so again not to Bel the point um with me tonight I have a representative of the op provide operation testimony Mr Jim angelone I have the project engineer Chan I have the project planner Mr Steve haulk and we also have our traffic engineer on standby just in case any questions arise from the traffic perspective that's Mr Andrew viia I'd like to start and this chman I apologize I don't have the preferences to swear all the Professionals in together or as they appear as they appear okay Mr angelon you raise your right hand do you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth I do and what is your name James angelone Mr Angel first can you explain your relationship to the African edar Partners LLC I'm the managing member of of the LLC okay and you're familiar with the proposed operations of this class five retail dispenser yes I am now class five retail dispens that is a license that's issued by the state New Jersey cannabis Regulatory Commission correct okay and that that would be required in order to operate this classi dispense gr at the site yes now that application has been submitted but we don't have that license yet correct not at this time okay now that would obviously be a condition of any approval that we would obtain that class five license in order to operate this site yes okay additionally there is a municipal license that is required for this classi correct correct City the government body issues that license we don't have that license yet but as a condition of any approval we would obtain that license prior we don't have a choice we would have to obain that license prior to Opera okay so let's turn to the specific on-site operations of this facility um if you could start briefly with day-to-day operations the days of the week that it's open the hours of operation number of employees those typical questions so the hours Monday through Saturdays will be 7 a.m. to 11: p.m. Sundays 9 to 9 employees we run they'll run two shifts U eight employees each shift two you know what sir we're all doing minutes by hand just slow down just a te Just a Touch let's start from the beginning no no no we where to pick up 20 employees two ships eight 10 eight employees two security guards each ship U and just to confirm here we're talking a class five dispensary it's really retail in nature here there's there's no on-site consumption proposed here there's there's no odor there's no noise I mean it operates as a traditional retail facility correct correct okay um obviously security is an important component of these proposed uses the security plan for this proposed use it all has to be sent to correct so they'll review the security plan as part of that license application and there's strict rules on the cameras the lighting 360° ceras um two security bars at all times so let's talk about the cameras first there will be cameras outside 365 EXC 360 Degrees correct cameras inside cameras inside and those will be monitored with a separate room for security inside the building thator and feeds also feed to the state as well they have access to those feeds as well to monitor you also said security Personnel two members on site at all times and again that'll be monitoring both what going on in sales FL and also monitoring the camera as okay and again all of this will be compliant with the state regulations cor and not only at the time of our applications State we will have to maintain that security plan going forward in order to keep our license correct okay um getting the Cannabis product to the site we speak a little bit as to how deliveries work usually between one to four deliveries a day the van or a box truck unmarked this this site will come in pull up on the side of the building security guards or meet the delivery truck bring the the product into what they call a the B area you it's on the private access private access SEC into the B area inside the building okay and how long on average do those deliver 15 minutes 15es okay and there's tracking in this product as well the state actually tracks all of these shipments they know where all of these deliveries are at any given time correct okay now we don't have a set schedule for delivery obviously for security purposes it fluctuates somewhat but usually during normal business okay now we also anticipate there to be deliveries that any normal retail facility would have Amazon ups and mail they the regular deliveries as and any business has and they will come through the front door anticipating any type of e wheelers any tractor trailers anything like that small box type delivery okay um trash and recycles and I think it's really two part question so I'd like to focus first on the disposal of cannabis prod that's also regulated by the state correct can you speak a little bit as to that that is also a deliver system so anything that's being disposed is we have a box drugs or delivery to come take the product away again that's all regul by the state and and how that gets disposed so on site it just be natural noral trash and recyclables so for the Cannabis product is actually somewhere within the building that that cannabis waste is stored until it's time for it to leave the site and then it's removed from the site through regulated process it doesn't end up in Gage but there is we are proposing a trash and closure with typical normal trash removal correct okay and that that'll be once twice a week as needed as needed yes okay landscaping and maintenance here I know obviously the site itself of opposing a number of trees and shrubs the Landscaping will be maintained as part of this proposal correct yeah private contractors private contract landscape companies snow they'll plow out the uh parking lot and maintain the area maintain correct Mr those are all the questions I have Mr Bo members any questions what kind of Canabis trash would you have disposal what kind of cannabis U disposal would you have that it's just from expire stuff if stuff is not moving falls on the floor falls on the floor that that you can't you have to dispose of it but you can't again you can't just throw it you okay address for this class is only Avenue so we actually our engineer can come it's 10 Philadelphia so um Ryan our ordinance is is still 10e 50 1030 you guys aware of that yes are okay yeah address that in my rep so the the trash enclosure will be built to the engineer standards of fireproof uh correct yes enclosure maintainable yes any other questions next is our project engineer [Music] I'm sorry do you swear that everything you will offer tonight will be the truth I do and what is your name my name is Aaron Chan that's spell C thank you very much if you could before we begin can you provide your qualifications to this of course I am the project engineer with st field engineering business as res 15 Spring Street in princ New Jersey I graduated with a bachelor in civil engineering from the College of New Jersey practicing the Feld for the last 10 years I'm a licensed professional engineer in the state of New Jersey I'm also a certified Municipal engineer by njsm I've been accepted into over 25 land Sports acoss the state and provide expert engineering testimony each of these I worked on over 20 uh retail store projects all similar toze scope is before you here tonight also had to added benefit of working while mrman I also Mr CH is an expert in professional we recognize his thank you I'd like to start first with just orienting the board I think generally we know where we're talking about but if you could did you show existing conditions what's out there right now sure so this is um an area exhibit that's prepared on March 18 2024 by engineering all you're seeing is they propos the existing I'm sorry the existing condition of the site um I think the important thing to know here is the frontage along Atlantic Avenue Philadelphia Avenue there's currently no access no perut on any of these areas um part of the during the W project six terrorist wood vated and all the utilities under that was placed under public utility that's the W project as well there's a set of drainage basin for the WWA development um to the sub portion as well as the the corner of the site that's also took place in the drainage eement um beyond that it's a vacon vacon pad it's pad ready you know for future development and part of the W project you know at the time it was always contemplated that this portion of the site will be would be developed a future development typically retail or some kind of similar or or you know complimentary use um but and so that's kind of why we here just to confirm the site itself is in the highway commercial enre that's correct for the record can we Mark that A1 please and identified in the packet is this it does anybody know what page in here it is or do you just W to so this is actually here you go you have an extra copy You're Gonna Leave With Us wonderful and what's the date on that this is March 18 2024 just describe it's just it's an a exhibit conditions thank you I'd like to turn now to so I'm trying to find a balance between talking quickly understanding the hour and also not going too fast but slow you down just for the record the description is wonderful it was the numbers from Mr James the numbers were hard to catch that fast you're doing fine okay and this is going to be A2 this is A2 and what A2 is A2 is prepared on March 18th 2024 A2 is title site plan rendering site rendering exhibit rather pred by engineering and what we're seeing is the proposed site with the added benefit of to and also the proposed Landscaping give the board some clarity and context as to site so that was also prepared yesterday corre so the first two exhibits that we have just so we're clear are not in the packets that we're correct okay and to be to be 100% clear this is you know the proposed site along with the proposed Landscaping both of those items were a part of the site PL and it's just kind of interlaced and colorized to make it a digestible visual all right so let's start first the building itself you talk a little bit as the proposed building sure the proposed building is approximately 3500 foot you know the general dimensions are 58 by 60 um generally a rectangular box is centrally located along the site you know understanding that the there are two EAS vents that we kind of need to um avoid encroachment on so it's generally placed 50 ft from the Philadelphia Avenue property line and then I believe it was 50 58. ft 58 feet on the um Atlantic Avenue side fully complying with the front yard uh and actually all of the bulk regulations under the AC Zone except for the rear yard opposite of Atlantic Avenue where 30 ft is required we at 25 ft is proposed and that is that share property line existing W parking lot correct that share parking lot is along the road of parking adjacent to the the W development um you also know the trash enclosure here so and then the pylon sign with the gas prices okay so let's talk about the parking on site um first we talk about access and then the propos par so access to the site will be provided via full movement driveway along lantic Avenue it's generally in the same approximate location as the formerly six six ter um so and that'll provide access to an interior parking field that's it's going to consist of 19 parking spaces where your ordinance requires a total 13 parking spaces all of these stalls as well as the drrive B will be industry standard you know Dimensions you knowly with city ordinances okay and and the traffic engineer I know he's here he's reviewed this he finds that it will allow for safe and efficient circulation on S that's correct okay and then the the next is the uh actually the loading space that's uh um placed in between the building and the Atlantic Avenue side approximate dimensions are 14 ft wide by 45 ft which meets City or on the single unit truck loading dimensions and at the end of that the trash enclosure it's a fully ened trash enclosure that for the regular trash so let's talk about that loading area a little bit obviously the trash enclosure there dumpsters will go there to remove the typical trash that's also where the deliveries that we spoke about of cannabis product and removal that's where those trucks are going to park the stuff correct that's correct so the intended uh maneuver for the loading and unloading operations well scat remove operation a truck single unit box will come on the site and then we'll back into this particular space from there the security guards will meet them and handle that secure delivery through the back via the sidewalk that's provided to the back of the house and uh there's a bol space that occupies probably about quar of the overall floor area where the product and that's the restricted area that we talked about that re that's correct so no product is traveling through any public space here it's really through that back side walk right into a a private restricted area that's correct exed by the security okay um Li you talk a little bit as proposed site lighting yeah the proposed lighting for this site will be serviced by Two Poles um there's generally located outside the the two eement areas I I described you know the parking lot it's not it's not massive CL lighting will feature um you know modern L technology with back Shields and uh cut offs so there's a layer and such is is being reduced overall the height of the PO themselves are at 25 ft Comin again with the city requirements and U there's a set of building mounted lights U that's generally goose neck goose neck style and intended more for ACC liing and athetic purpos than next I we talk a little bit as to the proposed Landscaping um you speak a little bit as to what we are proposing on site yeah throughout the site there's a mix of trees some of it's being relocated you know there are Street trees that was generally in the location of the suppos driveway we're proposing to shift that around um but generally on all sides of the of the project we're proposing mix of trees shrubs and the um storm water basin we're proposing to to plant with a seed mix as well um and all of these species apparently they they're native they're not exotic or anything like that that can be found at commonly found at local nurseries and U you know the same landscape architect that provide provided the plan for Wawa is the one that prepared this one so it's going to blend pretty well between the two two and obviously they'll take that vacant site now and I think we're proposing somewhere in exess of 50 55 plants trees shrubs plantings Etc corre that's correct over over 50 shrubs we pled on this site and given the size of it it's pretty substantial okay and then as we said that'll obviously be maintained as part of the Landscaping responsibility of of the owner and the operator that's okay um let's jump now to the architectural design of build you can briefly describe to the board aritex what's going on yeah of course so this was I believe this was submitted to the board U but I'll read it into into the record is verb design studio um this is the exterior elevations and also a floor plan um this was dated December 1st 2023 sorry December what 1 123 cor you want to mark that one as 83 okay so the the exter of the building um generally you're seeing the southern procad which is the side facing the parking lot that's going to be where the main entrances across the entirety of the building you're going to have a brick facade um that's full height all the way up up to essentially the roof line and parit line that's going to feature sort of a warm tone and then along the um corner vestule where the entrances there's ample glazing to service and provide some light into the waiting area in the front entrance and then that particular material will be a Hardy plank you know fiber cement board Hardy plank that's going to be of a wood wood color um and then additionally and that'll serve to sort of bre break up the U the rectangular box view of the retail store and then to further break that up there's a um a architectural BMP out along the Eastern facade this is facade facing the WWA side similar Hardy plank material brown color um that has a little bit of projection to it without break put break those lines additionally those Boose neck lights I spoke about during the lighting the lighting portion that's proposed on most of the frontages espe by the all of the frontages at the doors as well it's going to provide some acent lighting and Architectural there'll be functioning lights correct correct there are functioning lights um but all add athetic to the building and then lastly there is some small canop on these further break up some of those lines and then also just quickly speaking to the uh the roof line generally it's you know around 13 and 1 12 ft tall and then there's a full parit that's around you know entirety of the building that's at a minimum of 4 feet tall So speaking with the project architect you know placing any rooftop units for mechanical equipments generally in the center of the particular of this building you know with the parit in in mind you won't be able to see the mechanical just to confirm looking at the score plan you mentioned here's here would be the entrance from the parking lot that's where C would enter they would go into the sales for after leaving the waiting area and then they would exit along I guess the western side of the building correct correct so the parking lot was generally in this facility the front entrance there's a waiting area this uh this yellowish color is the sales sales floor the retail area the red area of the of the of the building is the restricted area where the bolt is where the employees the storage areas are um and then the exiting side from the retail component is uh going to be on the side and then there's a sidewalk going either South back into the parking lot into their cars or North onto the um Philadelphia and that on the northern part is where that restricted access is for product that's correct yeah I'm generally pointing to the building that's located about 23 from the corner the top okay let's talk about signage I know that that was one area that I believe that we required some variances for based upon some of the conversations we had with the board professionals mrwan we've slightly tweaked the signage proposed can you speak a little bit to that yeah let me touch on the um the wall mount design is to start so generally there are 52 square feet um currently they're proposed on all of the elevations except for the north elevation which is one front in Philadelphia in discussion with Mr M and having reviewed his letter you know decided to take the take sign that was fronting the the Wawa side and place that on the North elevation which is now fting the public Street um and then generally we'll require a variant from the from the number of signs where two signs are permitted one for each fronting the street um where there's three proposed we'll need a variance for the size um know they're 2 52 sare fet each so I believe the total aggregate was 50 square feet or so and then lastly on the the height of them they are 4 and a half ft tall whereas two two is per and our planner will speak a little more as the justification for those sign variances we're also proposing a free standing identification sign as well yeah that's correct I'm panning back over to exhibit 82 which is the site plan rendering the uh fre standing sign is proposed along the sidewalk back to Philadelphia Avenue with visibility from Atlantic Avenue and also on Philadelphia Avenue as your approach you know given that it's place at sort of at the corner and our access is long Philadelphia Avenue f it's good for wayf finding um the the size the setback um as well as the height is all fully comply with City or okay and just briefly I know you mentioned in passing some of the storm water improvements we are proposing a number of storm water improvements speak to those yeah of course so as I already indicated there's already two Basin for handling the WWA runoff that's on site you know we're proposing two additional small water basins one along the to the east of the building it's a small bio retention Basin that's going to be seated with a seed mix that's going to be pil approved um generally lowline grasses and bunch grasses and whatnot that provides a lot of stor water quality improvement and then that's connected in series to the the Basin along Philadelphia Avenue that's infiltration Basin that's going to handle you know ground water recharge and also our qu quantity reductions and these will all be compliant with the new D regulations correct these will be fully compliant with the latest be best management practices as well as also P you mentioned pands I require a certificate of filing we obtain that it's been provided to the court if we are able to receive approvals we will then go back to Pine LS for no call PL correct that's correct we're also on a county road we have applied to Atlanta County correct that's correct okay so we have County approval as well um I'm sorry I I missed County approval for What specifically yes April 26 okay just let's talk about the board professionals with you now yeah you had a chance to review that prior to tonight's meeting I did I did um and in review this is Remington Vernick um by Mr mcgan March 8th 2024 I have reviewed all the contents in the letter and we can agree to comply with the with the comment within the within the letter now in your professional opinion as a professional engineer you believe that this proposed plan of devel development satisfies the requirements for prary and final major site plan approval I do okay further questions from Mr questions from the board you know there's clay there you got to break to it drink building once you finish that we have another job this we were forunate you know we did tests here you know all of these four areas that were tested they all receive over 20 hour so you know understanding there is play people at the said the same thing and it overflowed for five years so they fixed I apologize that packet was given us two months ago I think and I failed to bring that tonight not do you put your the one that's on the ground that up yeah that off which build is that the second one down this is the north elevision facing Philadelphia Avenue so it's actually you know kind of looks like the backup house um over here what we're proposed to do inie is actually take the facad sign that was fronting Wawa and place that you know I was in the middle of the building facing a and and what's behind the building is it a sidewalk I mean what's what's this area so that that part of the building that facing Philadelphia Avenue what from the building to the grass how much distance is that there's a sidewalk here and then this building is set back 50 ft from the RightWay line and then there's a Bas in here I'm just curious the only reason I'm asking is typically the back end of the building is where all the junk goes and that's what's facing Phil offia Avenue so that's our entrance way to the city it just seems odd to me that we would place the back of a building facing the street instead of the nicer side yeah understood understood and that was something we looked at extensively so recall I had the various easements going on you know utility eement associated with six terorist the storm water drainage easements associated with wahah the way we had to orient the site the way we had to get the access to work was actually better to get the parking lot on the inter interior internal side and then how that how that you know kind of forced the floor plan layout without now the main entrance needs to be south facing so then actually you know given the Flor plan you see Mass area that's actually restricted to um to from private or from public use this whole entirety of the area is down the back you know so it's just not very pleasing to the eye on that yeah main part I don't there something we could do to make that prettier to John's point I mean I think the the back of the building naturally is what's facing towards wa the site your your driveway comes off Atlantic the site is kind of facing that direction while the entrance is from the side um you know I think probably better switching the fourth elevation at the bottom the second one so that you have your sign and more decorative materials facing the which Tak the bast traffic and then you can that another tree between those two trees and screen the backside that faces wa um you know I think that it's it's sort of a goofy orientation but Point that's what you have to work so this site is somewhat challenging in that it does have frontages on a lot of different roads um I would say that given the importance of Philadelphia Avenue I think that motiv that will motivate the I think the view from Wawa and the view from Philadelphia Avenue is probably the most important yeah so I've talked to the applicant we're happy to and really what it would be would almost be a switch here so the as Mr McAn just said the portion that we're now that we originally proposed to face the W parking lot would now face Philadelphia and I think that that adds a little more architectural flare on that that road yeah one of one of the things they changed before they even got here was they didn't have any public access from Philadelphia Avenue and a year ago still working this I said you have to have a sidewalk in Phil that's like the mean thorough there so they they do have a public connection um coming from that side you know to your point of like somewhere has to kind of be the back of the building I think that's really the Frontage that faces waa because they can screen that they'll have Landscaping they'll have all that and then the rest of it either faces the street or faces their Pary because you look at the W building and really no back of that building either no exactly but they they trash enclosures on this side and they're parking on this side and that's really the best you can do and where is a trash enclosure again yeah the trash enclosure is to the West immedately so be on the railroad side so yeah you I don't think you specifically referen when we went through it but they'll actually need relief for a trash enclosure in the front yard because of the way that the building is oriented that's te well I mean it it would be the fully fireproof enclosure it's just where that's the key other questions is the building sprinkled is that to be sprinkled I don't think so the building up this side for retail for retail us apparently is not that square footage where it need but ultimately it's a uniform construction code issue and obviously will comply with what the requirements are construct and if this goes up in smoke you really want to put that I'd like to now go to our professional planner hello I think I'm the last person you swear that everything you offer tonight will be the truth I do thank you and what is your name Stephen with a pH Hawk Hawk we follow each other around from town to town yes we do and what else do you need for me Mr you could just briefly could you provide your crti I've been practicing planning since 1988 I've been licensed in the state of New Jersey for 30 years I've been Institute of American certified Institute of American planner since uh 1995 uh I've worked for the city of Island for 28 years reviewed almost 4,000 development applications during my time there believe it or not it was quite active um been in private practice for seven years I've been um probably before about 50 boards over 100 applications during that time we accept his qualifications thank you mrman Mr hwk you heard us talk a little bit as to the proposed use and the bulk Varian that are needed I guess my first question would be do you feel that those bulk variances are Justified and if so why definitely um they both fall under the criteria of the C2 variance I'm sure you've heard in your training and you've heard uh other planners and and your solicitor talk about C1 and C2 type variances C1 are the is the older type variance and it's the only one that existed all the way up until the early 90s the C1 variance is a hardship variance so one that's based on shallowness or narrowness of the lot the C2 variants came into play in um in the early 90s and it's basically do the benefits the zoning benefits of those variances outweigh the detriments that's the test the legislature thought that there were so many minor type variants that it was good to have that um in the statute and have that justifiable through that process um there was a a court case known as Poland p l Len versus uh South planfield that said that the benefits uh that can be used for that test can can uh come from the overall benefits of the site plan development not just the benefits from the variance and I think that's the case here where you have over all benefits uh of this site plan um uh development what I see is definitely purpose a which is under the purposes of zoning the general welfare is Advanced I see EDG Harper city kind of on a roll right in this area given uh you have several modern sites now you have Dunkin Donuts which is been you know more of a modern site it has grass it doesn't have all pavement to the property edges it has trees it has bushes now the Wawa site is continuing and has continued with that and now with this site you have that modern development subject to new storm water RS subject to having grass bushes and and trees so um the general welfare is Advanced by the fact that there's energy here there's investment and I think that's one of the the nice purposes of that you can even carry further to that small um Park that was built by egg Rubber City at the corner by The Firehouse Tavern it's now coming through and and it's in contrast to the older sites of the 50s and 60s and70s that didn't have any Cy plane design that had pavement to the property line pavement to the curve so you're really seeing um a really nice development in this stretch um no further degradation to the environment is another purpose that's purpose j under the purposes of zoning and you're going to have 55 new plants here and uh that's a nice feature you're G to have a bio retention sale so that's that's also a benefit of this site and then there's a more efficient use of the land you definitely want this land used this is smart growth this is where you want your development Highway commercial the utilities are there the roads are there and it's County Route so uh I think those are the general overall benefits of of the uh the site that lend themselves to graning both the rear yard and the the wall sign variances the rear yard is kind of minor it's 25 ft versus 30t required but when you're looking at a rear yard or any kind of yard you're looking at what's next to it and what's nice about this is that the ordinance contemplates 30 feet on our side for a setback of a building and then on the Wawa side if it's deemed to be a rear yard or a sard it's it's going to be contemplating another 30 ft so the buildings need to be 60 ft away based on your ordinance the w is 90 ft away from the property line so with r25 you're going to achieve a whole 115 uh building separation and that helps it's not like there's another building right up against it and it gives it the space in the area as far as the negative criteria on before you get to the negative crer real quick would you also agree that safe and efficient flow traffic is also Advanced here particularly we're talking about these side oh yeah definitely I agree um so with um the negative criteria on the um uh the rear yard setback it's basically is it is what we're proposing 25 ft versus 30 feet is it out of character is it something where there's no other uh building that's close to a property line we're actually setting a new prevailing setback uh along this stretch across the street on Philadelphia it's the old style the uh the teamsters building the houses they have no setback they're right up against the sidewalk they have zero Wawa in this development is setting a nice new setback it's meeting the 50 Foot uh criteria uh there's some buildings I think over on C Cincinnati Lane and and six Terrace that are close together so having buildings close together that old style development is the character of the neighborhood I think we're breaking that and the Wawa has broken that and I think we're in um we don't have any substantial impairment of the Zone plan and Zoning or because we meet every standard except for rear yard uh as far as the wall signs go uh they do provide a benefit in that they are good for wayf finding they're good to provide uh traffic an indication of how to get to this site especially with the driveway being on Atlantic and not on Philadelphia having proper signage and proper wall signs is important now your ordinance talks about having I believe it's 40 square fet m maximum for a wall sign and we're going to have 52 square feet but the 40 square feet is something that is based on as a maximum but your ordinance actually allows for you to have a sign I think it's one square foot for every lineal feet of the building most buildings are 10 to 12 feet high in our case we're much higher than that we're up in the 17 to 18 foot high if you count the power pit or Power Pit so that leaves us with a facade that's bigger and more than what's normally contemplated and normally found so our percentage of our 52 foot sign is well less than the normal percentage that you see allowed I often see ordinances where you're allowed 10% of the facade in our case we're going to be at 4 and a half% roughly so I think the variances in the wall signs are small in relation to the facades that are proposed so that's why I think they're also um very do you believe there's any substantial detriment to the Zone plan or zoning ordinance for the proposed definely not even though they exceed the square footage maximum it's the size of the facade and it's the benefit that that they propose with way finding that leaves them with no substantial impairment chairman I have no further questions from Mr any questions for I have a question for the Professionals of the board uh I'm under the impression that you okay and Council okay one on 50 and one on 30 so what's are the applicants from 30 still trying to get there so I have that in my review letter and I debated whether to just open with that or let them do the presentation and circle back to it because I'm sure that there is more than one of you who were wondering why here is um so I I had this J with the city solicitor that there are three conditions for this conditional use one is that the subject property is in the zone where retail cus is permitted which this is second is that the number of uses permitted by the ordinance has not been exceeded which it has which it's it's met currently and the third is that the applicant has a conditional cannabis license from the state New Jersey which they testified they did so we talked about the second condition um being the number of uses has not been exceeded and the situation where we are current we had two applications simultaneously for the single license that existed um we were going to hear this one in the same um manner I suppose that we heard those two that no one had secured their City license yet that license was issued like two weeks ago so we were already prepared to hear this and I talked through it with the solicitor and we kind of arrived at we kind of have to continue to hear these because as a license becomes available the only person who is going to be eligible to get that license um in a sort of competitive environment is someone who has their site plan approval already so if we don't continue to hear applications for these um it it sets up a situation where no one will be ready to essentially get any license that becomes available whether the city adds it another one to its ordinance or um it's done via the development plan or any or the the person forfeits their license or loses their license um so we kind of realized that we have to continue to let applicants come in and um you know treat it as a conditional use with the understanding that they will not be able to move forward without securing a City license at some point so that's okay so the race is still on is what you're saying well no no the the City License was just issued like I said within the last two weeks to Atlantic flower the one on the 300 bike um uh I I don't know whe they're open or not but okay I don't think so no the one in that's been open for a bit there's another one white bike there was Atlantic flow and there's the one in the liquor store used to be W so Atlantic flower is at Waddell's the other one is the one that's across from where all used to be yeah that those were the two applications we heard at the same time the one at the former wadell site at the 300 block that's the one that just got the City License um so we ended up at a point where we had two people approved for their site approvals for this conditional use one of them secured the actual license if we don't hear any more of these applications there's only one other person like say the city were to open two licenses three weeks from now there's only one person who can even compete for that license right now because there's only one person with site approval to do so so in in talking over the city solicitor we kind of have to allow people to continue to come in for site plan approval for this as a permitted use and then if and when a license becomes available they have the site approval to move forward does that make sense so in other words the city has okay two one in the retail commercial and one in the highway commercial correct so now the city can open up and and and get another one going if they prefer to do that they have to change the ordinance correct the city the city by state law they are allowed to loosen the restrictions and and add to the number they are not allowed to reduce so right now we have one in one um it might be that way for the next 10 years the city could you know add another one three weeks from now or you know at the next meeting um but they would have to do that via ordinance they would have to advertise have to get the two readings all that stuff um but again there would be no applicant's position to get that license if this board does not continue to hear these site plan applications okay so now I'm confused because the discussion that you and I have had yes is that this is a Redevelopment plan so they they already that's the premise that we've been going under and what I've been telling the other applicants call me all the time they are also in a Redevelopment Zone we have a history going back many years Tim has always considered that if an applicant comes in utilizing what he referred to as the underlying zoning the zoning that's there before we do this redevelop do Redevelopment plan that was really the intent of the master plan was to accomplish that goal we only did a Redevelopment plan because no one was coming in with that so if someone comes in with something that complies with the original ordinance that's great that's what we wanted in the first place so we reviewed this application as a permitted use in the highway commercial Zone because that would be the faster path forward for them not having to wait for the city to go through an amend a Redevelopment plan and either consider adding another license or not so this uh and again up until two weeks ago we there was the city license had not been issued so we were just going to hear this one the same as we had heard the first two um once the City License was issued that's when we had an additional discussion with Angela of well we we kind of do have to continue to hear these they won't be eligible to get a license because it doesn't exist but if and when it were to become available they would be eligible to get it under the high commercial Zone separately the city has the opportunity to create another cannabis retail cannabis license in a Redevelopment zone so if the city decides to do that for this property or any other property with a Redevelopment Zone um that revision to the Redevelopment plan could contain the requirement that they comply with the conditions of the highway commercial Zone instead of the original Redevelopment plan requirements so if that's the case and the city decides to grant them a license via Redevelopment plan they'll already have site plan approval which is consistent with the highway commercial Zone and then they would have an opportunity to retail commercial license via the Redevelopment so that's how so to be clear that's the direction that we had discussed that we were going to go yes but from a review standpoint um we that would had to put this applicant off multiple months for them to fully modify the Redevelopment plan first and then come back under the guise of the Redevelopment plan instead they could utilize the underlying zoning and come in um as a conditionally permitted use and then continue forward but again separately from the Redevelopment plan in discussion with Angela for any for both the retail commercial and for the highway commercial it I think it behooves the city um and the board to just like I said to continue to hear these applications because let's say the guy on Philadelphia Avenue shuts down and forfeits his license tomorrow if we don't hear any additional applications there's no one position to to take that license does that make sense it makes sense but then you look at it the other way where if Council decides to Grant this going now you have three retail places in corporate city correct but if sorry not so I just I think it's a fair question and certainly something that the applicant's eyes are open to going forward into this that there is one license that has been issued but I think the phrase that keeps being used is competitive and to compete we'd like to try to compete for that now that's not guaranteed obviously it's a question for the governing body as to whether or not they're going to issu any licenses right now they've only issued one um we understand that I think we're okay with proceeding with that obviously what you don't want is a situation where a license is issued and they sit on or it's for sended for some reason or you can come up with a lot of different reasons what may happen to that license but I think what this allows for is competition for more licens in the future potentially or keep it a single license that's later orend ultimately they're governing body questions that the governing body is going to have to determine in connection with this proposed use but we understand that right now a condition of this board is going to be you can't open up shop without the license from the city and we understand and currently there's a li a license from the city correct right but you guys are still applying for a license from the state right now you're going to be and you're going to be using that address and you're using they require that you have consent from the municipality so you're going to say you have you're going to say you have a location and after if they award you how are you not going to come back and say and claim detrimental Reliance that we spent so much money based upon this even though what you're saying right here at that point how are you not going to come back and say um we went through all your steps spent all this money and now you guys aren't going to create a license or allow us to do a Redevelopment plan or or amend the current Redevelopment plan so that we can get get started so what I'm saying is we're going forward with our eyes fully open exactly what we're talking about and obviously there's a record of this me saying that on be yeah so yeah so we're aware of that to to your concern we're fully aware of that I have a question for I guess Ryan yes so the board we already created zoning ORS for where they can be located you're saying we don't need to get involved again it's up the council now if they want to add additionals numbers to those two areas so any timeway and yeah any anytime the city amends a land use ordinance it has to come back here for review and recommendation so if they wanted to make that change it would still come here for review and recommendation okay but ultimately it's it's a city policy on setting the number of licenses right now there is only one so as they've stated they they're fully aware of that that license is taken but again in discussion with a solicitor we sort of arrived at you need to be able to have other people who are qualified to assume that license if it's given up if that place doesn't open if they go bankrupt if they forfeit the license you need to have other people who are prepared to and and qualified to get that license with the caveat that the applicant has to understand that he may or may not get the corre we understand that the city could exercise the Redevelopment option right yes I think that's what least that's what I'm saying that's what I thought we were here for and that's you know I wasn't priv on this discussion with our attorney the the site plan review it's just whether you're going to review it under the Redevelopment plan requirements which do not not explicitly permit retail uh cannabis or under Highway commercial which does permit retail cannabis as a conditional use so we the the fastest path forward to get them through the board was to look at it as a permitted use in a highway commercial Zone which it is and bring them to the board for a license which was still available agreed unfortunately the the meeting got delayed a couple of meetings and had we heard this at the last month that license would still be available having any of this discussion um but again once that license was issued um we had the discussion of the way the ordinance was written and the fact that we need to have um at least offer the potential for other sites to be eligible to receive a license if and when it becomes a so if if if if something happens and wadell doesn't doesn't go through with theirs yeah they for their license is it does the liquor store first shot at it or can this site there's only one on philadalphia Avenue it's already open yeah so this site is in the highway commercial Zone not the retail commercial zone so even though it's on Philadelphia Avenue technically it's in the highway commercial zone so it's not competing for the retail commercial license for the store that's already open they're competing for the the highway commercial license for a store that just received the license but has not yet opened well uh but the other liquor store is Highway commercial also that's correct they they had already submitted a city um license application which was returned to them once the other license was so they're out of the picture now unless and until that license is forfeited or another license is introduced correct if W's place never opens then there'll be two of them back for the same correct then then you would have the same environment where you have two people submitting for a city application well only one because only one's on Route 30 he's wide open to council changing everything and can the highway commercial right well that's a different zone so well no no no we're talking about the the Atlantic flower one yeah the Route 30 one that's and the 300 block um the one that just got their City license but isn't open yet they're in the same Zone as this property the highway commercial two different zones correct so my question is need to have a license before they begin build constructing yeah because they they have not met the conditions of the use to move forward they would have a site plan approval but they would not be able to move forward without well they can build building they be condition of the approval though yes we have the license I would say that if we don't we'd have to come back if we want to do something else with the building it's a whole different use I mean it changes everything all right before before we move on you [Music] guys these are live see right behind you you're being recorded FYI just push the button right you know we're 14 minutes away from Spring hang in there 80 11:06 all right so this applic this applicant heard earlier in the evening I'm sure this is our first meeting here and as the mayor just indicated there's been a lot of discussions between boards and different officials and if I'm the one who at the end of this road has to come up with a motion my head is now spinning are we all clear and if I'm not saying something correctly somebody need I'm going to ask you to jump in we're not approaching this under some Redevelopment scheme correct we're here for preliminary and final site plan approval with variances and waivers requested and the one we're talking about now is the conditional use commercial huh in Highway commercial in the highway commercial Zone under which the applicant must satisfy three conditions or ask for a use variance right we're we're all on the same page so far okay yes okay so that means we're before the zoning board right now going back to what we talked about at 7 o'clock tonight right no we're because we're seeking conditional use approval so our position is we satisfy all three of those conditions and I know what gets a little tricky here is two of those condition conditions are you will have a municipal license and you will have a license from the state of New Jersey now when you read the conditional use standards under the ml it says you will comply what we are saying is we will comply with those conditions or we're not going to be able to build this project we're not asking for relief from any of those conditions either we're going to comply with them or we don't have a project so condition number one the subject property is in a Zone where retail cannabis is permitted High commercial right now we're good with that number two the number of uses permitted has not been exceeded that is not true right now there's one and one's gone so and you're hoping so we're not seeking relief from that condition we're not there yet I'm not even sure of the sentence I just said let alone jumping to the next sentence yeah the number of uses permitted by ordinance has not been exceeded right the status of that changed about two weeks ago okay so right now how many licenses are there there's one license in the highway commercial Zone and does somebody have it one City License was issued approximately two weeks ago what one that that singular license was issued about two weeks ago got it so there one was created and somebody's got it cor so the applicant is hoping that there's another one issued and you get it or that that one is forfeited or that that one is forfeited right okay and number number three the applicant has a conditional cannabis license that's in the works okay proceed oh I don't know if I don't know ran yeah you guys after public com I didn't know I don't know if Ryan I'll go through I mean I think the applicate did a good job of summarizing prop so um I'll just sort of highlight I mean we just went through at length um my section on zoning in completeness um technical review they are as I noted providing 19 spaces where 13 are required umly loading space was addressed trash recycling not something I highlighted but they will need relief from 170 114m for um the trash enclosure to be in what is technically a front yard in between the building and Atlantic Avenue um though the trash and closy is compliant as requested um they went through the signage requirements um both free sending sign is I believe now permitted in the zone the way that it was written in the ordinance is horribly confusing um so I believe they do comply with the freeing uh freestanding sign requirements before don't move on from signage yet though yes they referenced uh the total square footage and the height as well relief for those two things height where two feet is permitted and they have 4 and A2 and then a total square footage of 156 ft were 100 per um and there variances or waivers uh I believe that those would be designers they're notated in the um the zone chart okay um Landscaping Pierce comply lighting pierc comply architectural diet Des standards appear to comply but I'm glad that we switched that one printage um based on discussion with John um there's some storm water infrastructure stuff that they have to clean up but I don't think it'll impact the overall layout of the site um so I think we can handle that administratively afterwards if the board is comfortable with that that I have questions questions yeah again I apologize I can't see real well there's no pass through between your parking lot and Wawa is there no okay good it just people would speed through it so walk around philadelph yeah no pedestrian or vehicular faster they're gonna make it pass you for the sidewalk in I mean being serious because the landscape looks horrible without a a sidewalk yeah we I actually brought that to their attention earlier there's there's no good place to make a connection since it's parking stalls along the entire Frontage that's not where Bas it is um so I mean ultimately I think will probably cut through here you're not going to stop that but there was no good way to to make it a Formal Connection other questions board members we thinking about we want to make a motion in that discussion I think we need to ask the public I'm sorry is there any it's late is there anyone from the public wish to speak on this application no one thank you close the public portion you want a motion now yes okay as I indicated before I prefer positive motions because they're easier to this motion would be a motion to approve preliminary and site plan approval as presented this evening with the variance is it and I'm going to try to make this simple for you as opposed to the last one with the variances and waivers enumerated in Ryan's report but I'm going to ask that he specifically put on the record or have Mr lario put on the record what the sign I think their variances I don't think it's a desire waiver but we can discuss that um I need the sizes because I'm not seeing I'm not saying consistency in a bad way but I'm not clear about what signs don't comply what's what's required and what's being requested so I can make sure the the resolution is right they have three of the same sign the maximum height is two feet they are proposing four and a half they are allowed to signs because they have two frontages on the face the street they have they're requesting three signs they have a total sign area of 156 square feet is that correct yes where 100 square feet is permitted ask they be referred to as variances just I know the testimony that was provided supported the VAR I agree I think the Varian um but didn't I hear hold on a second what did I hear was it Hawks did you say something about 40 versus 52 feet huh 40 max per side yeah versus you 152 does it apply does it apply I'm just lost somebody's got to help me I don't think it does you might as well list that just you from that so we can see in advance of caution here it's not needed that's fine but I I think and what signs do that have to do with the three of the same size or the two fronted ones the three building I get that from 17071 A2 so if I'm dealing with a maximum height of two feet versus the four and a half feet that you've requested what's 40 versus the 52 square foot square footage yes so I think it's very will for the individual telling you blonde and 61 you guys you're in trouble this year with me okay I got it I just there were too many numbers and it's 1101 okay okay what's the sign gonna say I'm sorry what's the sign gonna read so it will be block letters yeah depending on what flag we run we'll come in with the actual the name of that the block correct nothing flashing it's not gonna say [Music] angelone you could open the restaurant here so we clear on that the motion is for preliminary and final site plan approval with a conditional I'm call a conditional conditional use if they get all three things they don't need the conditional use um they understand and we'll make it clear in the resolution they understand that they're here they apparel doubling down on what was said down here um and with the site all the other uh variances there's one variance in um the waivers referenced in Ryan's report but we're going to make it clear that the signage uh releas relief is also a variance and then it would be the rear yard and trashing closure as well they in the report c yeah I mean I could spend 20 minutes going through Ryan's report again but I don't think want to do that I make that motion second I'll second and a roll call and is this as a joning board or a planning board planning because I was corrected that conditional conditional use based on the discussion that the mayor and Ryan were having because it if all three conditions were already met it's it's not it's not a zoning is so we now can have a discussion on that motion right we just make sure we put it in writing what uh Ryan had I don't know how you word it on flipping the building as long as it's part of that that motion East elisions as necessary Swit East with West elevations East with North sorry further [Music] discussion mayor paty yes Mr Peterson yes Mr timers yes Mr Walker yes Mr McKenna yes yes M TZ yes Mr keer yes yes now we're gonna have a 40 minute report from the mayor on two minutes to spr if there's no other comments from from the board or public anyone from the public motion to adjourn this doesn't happen very often iure you I was a long night apprciate show George [Music] never usually we don't have