okay this is a regular meeting of the Fair Haven zoning Board of adjustment adequate notice of this meeting has been given pursuant to the pro provisions of the open public meetings act at the time of the board reorganization in January this year the board adopted its regular meeting schedule for the year notice the schedule was sent to and published in the Asbury Pro our Ledger January 20 2023 that notice is also posted on the bulletin board in B Hall and has remained continuously posted there as required by the statute the copy of the notice is and has been available to the public and is on file with the office of the Roo clerk copy of the notice has also been sent to such members of the public as of requested such information in accordance with the statute adequate notice having been given the board secretary is directed to include this statement in the minutes of the meeting before proceeding with the formal meeting tonight I'd like to say a few words to the applicants their experts in the audience about the role and authority of the Fair Haven Zoning Board of adjustment the board is a separate independent Municipal legal entity and it's limited Authority is specifically set forth in the burough ordinances and the New Jersey municipal Landings law it is quasi judicial in nature and the members of the board are unpaid volunteers appointed by the mayor and councel the zoning board does not enact the bur land use laws and regulations the burough Council does that the zoning board does not enforce the land use laws of the bur of Fair Haven this is the responsibility of the burough code enforcement officer this deals with appeals for Relief and the requirements of the B land use laws or denials by the zoning off an applicant is never entitled to a variant it's also known as an exception to the zoning regulations but must meet specific criteria required by the New Jersey municipal Landings law andan ordinances by satisfying certain required standards approved the board has no authority to wave these requirements the burden of proof is always on the applicant to show that he or she is entitled be specifically requested the applicant must prove that adiation from the regulations will advance the purposes the ordinance and that the deviation would substantially outweigh any detriment to the Zone plan variances related to the land are not intended or authorized to Rend temporary or unique personal situations roll call please Shield MREs here thisel Mr here ran here here Dr here Mr here Mr leader here please draw me sleep Al stands indivisible okay we have two matters on the agenda tonight they're both ke variances may take a little time first matter we're going to hear tonight is the Ryan applications R have everyone step up that might testify and Jordan swear evening any witness that's going to be testifying might testify might have a comment please SAR or affir evening ask you to sit down go back ask you to follow simp instruction before you start T pleas state your name for the record we have on record name follow the directions of your Council call you follow we Mark some exhibits this evening and then make a preliminary statement Mr before we go through the exhibits Mr Ridgeway is going to be recusing himself find his way to the back of the room as he lives first if you may I ask that you can confirm that we have jurisdiction over this matter yes um the exhibits Mr BOS have A1 your cover letter initially submitted and received submitted on 16th and received on the same day application Mark 82 consisting of uh part three list of variances statement of legal basis for the granting of variances list of experts and taxes paid A3 office of denial letter A4 gr use checklist A5 notice materials not dated but uh provided two two pages A6 survey prepared by atomic s dated updated to July 18 2023 signed and sealed architectural PL uh updated to August 25 [Music] 2023 we also have Mark A7 A8 also package of eight images incl of two aerial photos we also going to Mark zb1 the April 21 2023 c letter over Mr wi signature as well as CB2 August 2123 teview letter again over Mr signature and cb3 September 5th 2023 C review before we proceed this matter was listed on the zoning board agenda zoning board's agenda on October 2023 on that date applicat Council appeared was prepared to go forward we could not move the matter at that bank in time um but we did in order to proceed deem the matter complete by granting what he's taking action to tell the applicants that they do not need to submit applications to the m County planning board uh Freehold Soil Conservation District or the M County buard of Health I don't think we took any other actions other than those ministerial matters just want to point out the survey I had is St September 20th 2023 have September 20 keep the marking is A6 September thank you thank you thank you m good evening M chair members board regard on behalf of the applicants Den Dennis and Stella Ryan the application before you this evening uh pertains to the property that's located at 997 River Road single family residential structure uh which is in your R20 Zone um it's on the water it's waterfront property um the Ryan's uh intention is to uh um renovate um and uh do a SL do a moded expansion of 700 some Square ft to the existing structure um the uh you'll hear from you'll hear from the architect as we go through uh more detail with respect to the proposal but it's essentially an addition that is predominantly in the rear of the home and some in the side uh you'll see as we go through the application um the uh the integrity and and look at the front of the home remains intact um and that was that was an intentional deliberate process um by Mr candoris the the architect um the uh obviously as as the board members see there are a number of variances associated with the application many of which are existing conditions you know we're looking at a significantly undersiz lot 5,000 in some OD square foot lot in the R20 Z um so so bit of a challenge uh bit of a challenge for the Ryan and for and for mror um uh decided as part of this proposal they're not going to um need any tear down or demolition of the the existing home but rather make it a renovation to facilitate uh to facilitate their needs to get them a functional three three bedroom three bedroom home uh and so you'll you'll hear all the detail about that um and I think uh what I'd like to do unless the board has any questions um get Mr canduras and he's the architect um and then we will have our planner Andrew Janu who will testify uh before the board with respect to the variances of course the Mr Ryan here as well um if uh the board has any questions and we'll see how it goes for there so Mr brka the first thing is and you don't have to do it if you want Mr janer to do it um uh or Mr Kor to do it that's fine but I'd like to start with a list of what the variances are that are triggered by the application so that we can just sort of frame the discussion around those variances and before we do that I'd like to have a discussion about the lot itself um because this is one of those lots that I think extends into the river and and so we have had problems in the past regard to calculation of square footage if you're saying the lot is 500 square fet plus or 5,000 rather it sounds as though we've used a high water line with regard to the calculation of uh the square footage of a lot so I just want to get some clarification and just be sure that um that our engineer signs off on what we're starting actually use just Vol use the measurements in Vol so very conservative calculation okay so your high water line is the river side of the vad correct so size of your Lots been calculated to where you have an existing um bulkhead and so you're you're in agreement correct you the survey there's I guess four iterations on it so we went back and forth in detail to get the survey to a point where everyone feels comfortable with the lot area the the the true lot area between the lot lines is 6,606 square feet but it's been reduced down to 5,132 Ft for purposes all calculations um and that's because it's being taken to bhead um the survey provided dated September 20th um does show Thailand's Parcels to the north um I said the lines between the Thailand's uh Thailand parcels and actual property are pretty close to each other and it's hard to get an exact measurement of where they fall in line with each other so using the the ordinance definition for this um the applicant took the conservative approach to to go to bulkhead um and everything in lens of that was calculated to going to a lottery so that's where you get the 5100 that's where the 6600 comes up because that includes area in front of the bulkhead where we may have a debate as title related to tits and whatnot exactly correct do all the board members understand what we just went through okay uh just be sure please early on let's just list out the variances be sure that we I'll go through them for you if fa we have existing we have existing non-conformities with regard to lot area lot Frontage lot width lot depth um existing condition based on the on the size of the lot um there's an existing front setback non-conformity 50 feet is required in the zone the home sits today at 14.1 fet off the River Road and that that will remain unchanged I'm sorry Mr gry I believe you're actually updating the overhang front so porch the porch so I did call that a variance yeah right we're following the the it's the exact same location but it's it's actually Chang it's exacerbated because now you're going to have an encroachment that comes por only I think it's the same it's exact same measurement but it's just it's different same measurement of 14 14 same measurement but it's being exacerbated so while it doesn't create a smaller setback it it it creates a new variance yes that's corre just with respect to that overhang okay um with regard to um new variances um we've got uh we've had some other existing condition variances with regard to um the side setback for the air conditioning units uh with respect to lot coverage actually there's an existing non-conformity it's it's actually improved a bit um going from 78.5 to 70.7 with the removal some patios that that exist so a lot coverage actually is is is is is is decreased F variance we have we comply with maximum floor area we just but we do not comply with f there's an existing non-conformity not surprising based on the size of a lot at at um 0.519 with our proposal with that little bump out on the side the F goes the proposed F goes to 665 we comply with the maximum uh building coverage um lot coverage I said was reduced building coverage um in the R20 Zone 25% is permitted uh what exists today is 26.3% and the proposal is 27.5% okay so we have new variances for f and building coverage also number of stories based on the definitions in your ordinance where we are we are required to count the basement the existing basement as a half story we are doing that and the attic although it is uninhabitable by virtue of your definition te and the ordinance counts as a story so as a result we're proposing three stories where two and a half is pered Mr could you the building coverage what number do you have for the proposed I have I the proposed is [Music] 27.5% I there there's an error on the plan will be corrected it's correct in Jordan's plan counts the deck right whereas my for is just the true building coverage so it's 27.4 right 27.5 and I just want to confirm we've got a basement the first floor second floor and then an act four four level corre the habitable F can you confirm that one more time deploy area ratio um is 0.519 exists 665 is proposed that's different than M as well no 5152 up at 052 sorry 6 I the 0 519 insists 665 is proposed yeah so if we round off 519 oh yeah okay all I got it thank you okay thanks I the list um two more existing conditions uh the side yard step back is requ car be 14 feet it is 5.6 feet on the east side um all required parking is is isor all parking is required to be located behind the front yard set back line there are two parking spaces uh right in front of the house there's there's two driveways so you can actually Park uh you know right off the road in addition to the driveway that goes down to the bottom to the garage uh for the variances now I'm also adding side yard setback again but it's for the addition it's 9.6 feet where 14 is required and then uh the combined side yard setback uh needs to be 21 ft and it's 35 ft to both property lines U as youve heard there's a basement so the basement under the new definitions means that there's more than 30 Ines from the finished floor elevation uh to average something great anytime we have a basement or that condition it's going to be a variance now so then itself uh is a variance it's 4.75 ft and that's created by the slope the cor the existing the ex slope of the property um the minimum set vacuum of river should be the greater 50 F feet or the average of the existing setback of structur buting the river um here we're 7 feet from the bulkhead to the the second stair on the deck and then the last one is it has to do with a 300t repairing Zone there's disturbance within uh the 300 foot setback the got one of everything with regard to the sidey setbacks with Mr kandor just at the beginning if you could just kind of show us where the the changes are to the side so we can appreciate what the issues are there yes yeah SM Anthony huras c n d r well and we've accepted mror for many times okay um Mr koris if you would if you could just walk the board through the property as it exists uh today first and then we'll go through what's proposed for the application sure so um existing right now uh on the survey you can see it says existing two and a half story dwelling that is uh that is remaining uh behind that currently there is a one story extension that goes to the to the rear to the north um and then to the side there is an existing area to the East and then there's a a best on the west side on this left side of the house here so that is that is the existing conditions um and Tony the existing conditions with respect to the record the specifics as to the lot size and depth and all of that just to put it into perspective right just you can walk through walk the board through the lot area sure and the lot Frontage and the lot yes so as U Mr Rizzo was speaking before we took a conservative approach to the lot area uh we're saying that is 5,132 square F feet uh and we use the bulked for that to take that measurement so even though the lot that says 10796 feet um we're actually about 20 feet short of that uh because we're only going to the buend um we have 6114 ft of Frontage uh we do have a shared driveway that straddles this property and the property to the West pretty much right down the middle and that driveway goes down the hill into into the garage which is on the basement level right can I can I just ask about the how much land in front of the bulkhead is questionable um is there an amount of land there that um perhaps couldn't agree with Mr Rizzo as to whether cly was in or out um does raran arguably go all the way to the bulit I think it goes beyond the bulit I don't think it goes beyond it it's um understand I don't think I understand the question so where does where does the U uh 300 so your lot so so your lot extends into the water the the pro the problem with those lots is that you've got tiand planes and you've got high water lines to observe in terms of understanding exactly where you actually own and it's just this odity about some of these locks on the nav right my question is you've conservatively taken the bulkhead of your line if you were more aggressive how much could you argue that you own subject to the state's rights I mean is is there 10 feet there or was it just a foot and you just decided it was easy I'm just curious as to whether or not you left what you left off the P well the mean High waterline is and if I understand your question uh at the very back of the property here um I don't have a square footage of the balance of what what's left over what's the distance from me ey waterline to the bulkhead uh let me get because it's kind of it's kind of angled but that's not going to be consistent with the tyes maps because you've got a cretion on this side of a river so you probably let's not go down to travel I'm G I'm going to withraw the first okay thank you for trying okay so where were we yeah so we were talking that you went through the L lot area you talked about the lot width did you that yeah lot width is 61.4 Ft in the front it kind of fans out a little bit toward the back right and the lot depth to the bulkhead I know it's it meanders or or or is it's not it's not straight so on the closest point let me get you well he's doing that the the single level um um protrusions if you will into the side yard and the rear yard and on the other side are they off of the first floor or they off of the basement level they are off of the the main floor of the house it' be the first floor yeah uh so in the middle of the lot we have about uh again to the bulkhead we have about 80 feet um as you get to the the part where the slope gets more narrow we go to down to about 75 feet and then I'm talking from the front proper line to the bulkhead and then on the western most side we're about 90 ft okay 9 Z yes than okay and let's let's let's talk about the existing home and then what's proposed part of the yes so um maybe I'll give you a little history on on how this whole project transpired so uh the aant Mr Ryan he came to me a while back and had a a design of a house that he was hoping to do that he would work with somebody else on um it was it was the intention was to knock this house down and put this new house up um the new house was um quite modern looking um and uh I respectfully spoke to Mr Ryan and did my best to convince him that that really wasn't an appropriate design for the slot based on the context and I thought because I pass this I pass this row houses every day when I go to work and it's a very lows scale very Charming little strip of houses there so I felt like it was important to keep the the massing of this front section the same height and the same same bulk so he agreed um which was great and we proceeded to do this as a res as a renovation rather than knocking it down and trying to build a new house so you can see in this rendering that even though this is going to be renovated it is the same structure of the existing house so the bulk of the additions are happening at the rear above this uh existing one story section U to quickly touch on the side setbacks the current side setback is 5.6 at the closest point but that's one story section that's existing our new addition is being extended vertically from that rear one story section and that's at 9.6 so that's where we're still need a variance for that even though we're not coming any closer than five 5 foot6 5.6 excuse me but you're not exacerbating at 5.6 you're exacerbating at nine something that's correct um and and the total square footage of the of the addition the addition total sare of the addition is 745 ft okay um and we we talked about um uh the front that that front overhang if you will we're talking about that front setback issue yes that's a a very that's an overhang that's actually going to follow the footprint of the existing porch so it's not coming further or any more to the sides in the existing porch okay okay so it's extending vertically and then from uh well let's let's talk about the floor plan so we can sure so we can sort of understand the the sort of motivation about that proposed bum out on that side on that west side right uh so if you look at the first floor plan here you'll see there's a this dash line indicates the existing building um we are proposing a twostory Edition on the leftest side of the house you can see this thin strip right here this bu up two stories it just gave us a little more room to be able to get a better FL plan on this side and this is on the side of the house where there's quite a bit of room on the side set of back and uh and can you just give us some details with respect to the basement and the add in terms of so existing condition and functionality right this is the basement the the footprint of the basement is going to remain the same uh you can see here there's a garage at the rear of the house which you can pull into from that share driveway you go down the hill um but other than that the foundation well the foundation footprint is not changing um the you have the garage and the rest of it is storage so there's no habitable space on that level and the proposal is not to change the usage of the basement correct correct so on the second floor uh you're coming in we have a an open Fan Room in the back with a rear deck obvious for obvious reasons that's where we want to be got the view so most of the SP is in the rear and again this is all existing foot pin put the midd part here we are there is a this building is kind of skewed it's out of it's out of square so uh we're going to we're going to clean that up and square it off so you do see a little bit of a corner here that's sticking out that's the old building that we're going to have to square up um so you know open plan in the rear these are the stairs going up to the second floor there there's no no access to the attic other than a pull down stair the attic will not beable and and the reason that the attic is considered a half story for the ordinance is not square footage wise right it has to do with I believe it's simply just because it's an and and that's not habitable not not most of it okay um with respect to utilities existing utilities are exting okay what about the existing grade of the property right that that impes another challenge as well right so we are complying with the uh not the number of stories but we are complying with the building height and the building height was taken from the four corners of the existing structure um using the grading plan I was able to interpolate and get get elevations for that four corners and so we will comply to the the okay and um any change to the grade being proposed as part of the application no change to the grade okay Mr brosy if the basement exists and you're not renovating and the attic exists you're not renovating it isn't there an argument that you've got a preaching nonconformity as three FL well I you know I think it was because there was a change in the uh or definition is that why so I I wasn't sure whether um it kicks in new variants relief but um well I don't know why it be any differ than I mean think it should be applied prospectively although now we're in for an application but but certainly no change proposed yeah there's at least an argument that it's pre-existing un conform I agree I agree um Tony now I see uh on the West Side you've got windows and even windows in the in the garage area right on that lower level with that athetic thing or uh well this this is the actual this is the garage door you can see here on the rendering we're coming out over the garage you'll be able to drive under this piece of the house here to get into the garage okay this is a stair Tower um which has been extended up and um this is the second floor that's the master B okay and parking is going through remain as it exist today parking remain as it exists today um there does happen to be as I mentioned there's actually two parking spaces in the front yard there's actually a curb F we certainly didn't want to get into a thing with the sidewalks in the county to remove those curve Cuts so those will just stay intact Mr Excuse me Mr Rizo you pulled out the parking but if the garage exists there's not another three bedrooms is two spaces right yeah so they don't need a VAR for the parking or awayer them right well I guess I'll ask cond do um there is going to be parking in front yards whether they need it or not they are going parking or it's intended to be parking okay I'm just saying the garage is there single car garage soon consist yeah and there's got to be another space behind the setback then in the driveway in the driveway driveway itself yes so the driveway is the neck of the driveway there so I don't think you're taking any credit for that um how many cars can you fit in the garage and then how many can you fit within your property outside well if you're using rsis we could only fit one in the garage okay um the thing is because of the zone that we're in we have a 50ft setback requirement so the front setback is is way back here okay so yeah that's true that's that's that's kind of oh yeah I think it's the front yard it's the front yard it's 14 ft of that but but let's get to the substance of it you're no longer going to park in the front is that did I read that somewhere no they are going to oh you're keeping all that okay keep keeping it intact for sure call out the 25% of the front yard for parking more than 25 yard some perious no it's just more than 25% it is more than it would be more than it is that existing condition yes no change to any of no [Music] change and what about um Tony from a design perspective um materials and what have you yeah so um you know we're still keeping the the massing and the appearance of a traditional house with the Gable roofs and uh you know we are going to bring some more updated elements into it but it will be a clapboard siding and and double hung windows with with gr and there a number of the homes along along that that sort of Street Gates have been renovated right they have over the years so this is kind of the hole in the donut yeah yes um and the overhang is going to look like like an architectural overhang with the with the cables yeah yes yeah yeah no living or having SP associated with that obviously and have you considered any storm water here or and if not how would the site function versus and how it does today the drain well we are we aren't making any changes to the grading so my my opinion was that we it should just function as it's functioning today but we could certainly submit a a grading BL needed but um I guess discharging that grade and then is it running off down to the river it must be some of it you do have a SL for for the curve that's going from 18 to 17 down to 16 some of it is going toward the street but once you get over the hill it starts working it way down for the r okay so it works today and you're going to maintain the same pattern correct and what's the Delta between what you have today and what you're going to have later are you just uh basically going to have same amount of roof um the building coverage I don't remember yeah you have more water to deal with you have the same amount or less more water more water and how much more really the only change in footprint is is really the uh there one little section here of that we went out so that's about uh six to 60 square feet building coverage increased so that's the first floor Edition that's the expansion of the living space in the first floor that's first and second floor that's that's the end of the house over here 59 square feet building coverage and then then we we reduce lot coverage by how much lot coverage got reduced from uh 78% down to 70.7 that's because there's a a pretty good size patio here that's being removed the net reductions so it's um just such a limited lot is there is there room anywhere if there was um if there was a desire to see this stay at least where it is now and put the water the new water underground in some sort of a drywall or something you have access to an area where that could even to to to install a drive accommodated yeah uh yeah there's there's quite a few spots here that are actually grass that could be excavated presently no plan not proposing to do it room to do it and we can leave it for now correct okay what's what's being done to prevent runoff into the net thing uh both during and uh and uh both now and during construction well now it's just the house is as is uh during construction we would install Sil fences and that's the that's the typical way to to control run offer that plan yes oh yeah yes Jord I I don't know if there was anything else in your report that we didn't hit um so just the board knows I went back and forth um gu three times three so um they did a lot to get the plans to this point Point um the one outstanding common I have is regarding uh blood Zone blood plane line which I think we both took a look at um we agree that it's it's you know lower than we the building it but if you can just formally show it on the plan yeah what elevation yeah the elevation is 1.6 feet and that's this line you see almost at the very back no I believe I believe it's it's like nine or 10 one plan line oh um going across the property here you right yeah it's elevation 10 is it label a dark okay I guess can you just you can just reflect it on your plan that you know then any Outside Agency approval said you started looking at what US required yes we did start but we that'll be subject to um once in the event that the board approves the project we'll we'll go appro what's your elevation of the bulage compared to the river side of the bu elevation of the bu compared to the river side of the bulkhead yeah if you stepped off the bulkhead how far would you fall uh it's not it's not it's five top of the bulad is at about five feet and then the next grade down is four and it just so it's pretty it's not it's not that steep not not that much of a difference you ever flood does it ever flood uh that I wouldn't know I could ask Mr you kind have to step forward he's been sworn he just has to identify himself spelling his last name don't be yes name Ryan R and Dennis any flooding issues at the property no um and it didn't flood during Sandy either you're on the right side of the river yeah is that you made a statement from the audience I think that's why we pulled you forward what was the statement that you made I just want to sure everybody heard it that was it that was it okay yeah good there's a photo in my letter it's on page 11 tomorrow take a look the rear yard really don't even see the bulkhead there so it must be vegetation or or just very small you say you're letter you're referring to zb3 53 that's correct I have a couple of questions so the um the houses immediately to the East and the West are actually pretty far from this house right you're not you're not snug up against your neighbors on either side right I I have these Dimensions they're plus or minus but the distance from this house to the structure on the west is plus or minus 42 ft and then to the structure to the east it's Plus orus okay and with regard to the basement there's there's this garage put right in front of the river but everything in the back is shown in storage is it heated is it cooled is it going to be finished or use in any way at all it will not be it isn't now and it won't be later it will not okay and did we calculate the garage as part of the square fo for the basement not the garage but everything else on the basement are clear on that to pull out yeah so um there's crawl spaces which were counted and the garage wasn't counted but everything else on that board was counted is an image on top right of the cover sheet page one page page one of architectural PL and that shows the area that was counted FL so the expansion on the first floor is a total of 59 feet which is New Foundation that's brand new exactly how right right on the West Side how deep is that and and how long is that I'm sorry the the rear Edition you were saying Edition on the way this addition here to the West 17 ft in this direction and 5T and from east west and that's the only expansion of the footprint of the house itself correct okay and on the second floor the addition is entirely over existing structure and that effectively doubles the size of the second floor correct uh effectively Plus or Min yes and there's no other that's it two additions two floors that's right well this stair Tower also carries up as well so that's if that's sitting on top of an existing the existing difference and that front little overhang and yes and and the decks in the rear there's the two decks so what sort of analysis was done about how this house would look if it were in a zone that were more appropriate given the size of the lot you're in R20 this lot has no business being in R20 that creates a lot of the pre-existing um conditions um but if you get down on R5 you're looking at 2200 sare feet pick the basement out of the equation but you know help us help us understand how this would look if it were in a different Zone relative to the standards uh well we we we felt that this lot was sort of between the R5 and R 7.5 okay Zone um your 7.5 gives you 30 3020 guess yeah 3 Z two 0 yeah right so and then the floor are area ratio in the R5 zone is4 so we we are not in conjunction with that we're we're at 66 so let's just deal with that square footage trying to see where you get where this it doesn't look like 3,400 ft of house toest well the basement well we have to count the basement the basement's in the basement's in the existing calculations as well so the Delta between what you have and where you're going is is right although I thought I saw some stuff that it showed older but maybe it's pH Clan's turn yes but I want to go back to the R7 F so if you were in R7 pod if we exclude the basement um what what are the what's the calculation square footage of floor one and floor two with the addition floor one and floor two would be us 16 sorry excuse me 2675 total yes so if you were in R5 you'd have a 2200 foot cap you'd be over by four and if you an R 75 you'd be a 3020 cap and you're about 400 under we' be under you put it right in between that's correct and what's the ratio on an R 75 four did you say four r no that's R5 r r 7.5 is35 yeah and you're at 66 we are 665 66 but that includes the basement once again if you pull that out do you know that off the top um I can I I don't have it but I can tell you real quick this also includes the conservative lot area too we got some extra dirt wet dirt well say and our size only goes you can only go one well that we haven't gotten into the setback that was my next question I don't they can't I'm getting five yeah5 fors are five on sh 15 and five isn't it well tell tell us how how would it sit on on an r75 lot relative to the setback limitations the front the setbacks in the R7 zone are 7 and N the required set so you'd be short on the one side the part that we're constructing is is that the addition yeah because you're not going over your one story to the east you're going inside of that so your additions would conform to the set back for our 75 that's correct and what the rid height well it vared because of the lot but it's 32 ft based on the four corners of the existing what a ridge height from the front do we 27 27 and that's staying the same Jordan you agree on averages it came out spot on 32 yeah 32 32 okay it's a lot of back a lot of work and we thank you for that a lot of back and forth what what did change in the plans during the development of them I know you got the ordinance changes I think came up in the middle of the design but were there other things that you wanted that you pulled back that you haven't asked for tonight do matter of getting the numbers right well in way back in the beginning was actually going to be a new house you never saw that but I don't I don't believe I think this there weren't too many changes to the planning since the one that you saw okay just again just adjust numb getting the numbers right yes and adding confirming what is included what wasn't yes and then adding quite a few Dimensions that Mr Rizo asked for which is great we really got everything on paper so and in terms of the change to the ordinance it affects your numbers because it affects your basement were there other impacts on the design or the result that you have here tonight that that are derived from the changes to the ordinance no there are not we we actually could have because now the ordinance allows addicts we probably could have done some kind of addict but uh again that would have been still been a variance for this number of stories but thetic the Attic free yeah well right now it is yeah no no no what I mean by that is the attic doesn't count against your Square doesn't count a square footage so it's it's it's out of that but but there's no proposal there no proposal for Mr Jan here he's here I was just any other questions for Mr kandur all right let's have Mr Jan area excuse me Mr chair Mr kondor has another hearing um elsewhere he's so popular he's a popular guy I didn't know if we would want to open up to the public for questioning mror so so what we can do Mr brosky is we can do that if for some reason after he leaves there's a question that comes up it can only be answered by him we'll be stuck but to Avid having that occur if you'd like to open for the purpose of any any um anyone in the audience has a question specific to Mr Kor it's not the application with that would be great okay so um what we're doing right now is we're going to invite anyone that has any questions specifically for Mr koras with regard to his testimony in this plan because Mr koras is turning into a pumpkin and won't be here uh when we get to the public section so if anybody has any questions uh from Mr kandor all right Anthony I hope it's rson you'll make it yeah okay sorry about that thank you my name is Andrew Janu J niw I'm the Planner on this matter okay I believe Mr J you you you've testified before this board before have you not I have and you've been accepted as a an expert in planning I have any other skill sets you'd like to tell uh no I am professional planner and uh I've appeared before this board and I'm currently representing several municipalities including bur Carter C Livingston and burough fre anyone have a question or problem accepting Mr Jano as a thank you thank you all right um Mr Jan if you would you you visited the site correct yes I have okay and you reviewed the plans and all correspondence and everything that was submitted as part of the application correct I have you you reviewed the Burrow's ordinances and the master plan and um all of that and and the history of the property as well correct so let's go through the a little bit let's go through the zoning of the property and then uh the area from a planner's perspective so the the property is in the R20 Zone this requires a 20,000 foot minimum lot permit single homes uh Community residences family dayc carees Municipal facilities and like U this is a permitted use within the district although the lot is severely under sized for the district um and you can see from the aerial me yes my apologies we need to um mark this exhibit as A9 should we go ahead and mark them all that sure A9 is the area is there a date on that uh this is uh there is not about today it's a 2022 Mammoth County near map area prepar 410 2023 that's the day we prepared it that's the day was download but it's a 2022 image okay 2022 thank you and any you have another I have a photo board two sided uh there four photographs on SL a a10a existing home and neighboring home the back of the board has two RS of the neighborhood as well as a tax map highlighting the property and a 1957 aerial depicting that the configuration of the properties uh adjacent there today I ask you for the date of the tax map again please uh this tax map is apologize cut off on the copy uh sorry June June 24th 1960 current no this is the historic tax that the lot 1960 1960 correct thank you okay sorry for interrupting Mr no my uh I was referring to the aerial because it depicts the configuration and context of the lot you'll see it's it's actually at a pretty unique location within the community where it's on the south side of an Oxo of the north of the navyn river it also has a point where road kind of takes a bend in and it creates essentially a barrow very narrow strip of improvements which if you take a look at the the historic haxm that kind of accentuates river comes in the road bends there results in exceptional narrowness uh lack of depth of those lot can you speak to the to the lot itself curious about the yellow line the bulkhead the the tidelands thing we discussed can you help the board understand how you understand uh you know why why the lot goes that far out certainly so so the the outline of the lot is to the mean high water line um and I essentially following what was uh along the tax map um the bulkhead line you can kind of follow with the neighbors cuts through this portion and there is a drop off here uh kind of slopes down and then levels off as you hit the water line mean high water line would be located just around this area here inside of the Y Line inside the yellow line or just about at that yellow line so is there an argument that the lot is larger than the applicant has um has argued tonight at 5100 Square F feet or do you agree that everything on the other side of the retaining wall is not owned by the Ryan uh actually I do believe it is owned by the Ryan there is some utility to that lot again we were taking a conservative approach not wanting to have to argue that point before the board um we said us the more conservative calculation of a lot area in terms of How It's configured today and how it's used today okay okay and Andy you're gonna go through uh existing zoning and and go through the uh yeah the area in general right so just uh the home itself dates back to or to your tax records to 1922 when it was constructed and it was exist substantially similar as to that time and there is a an aerial image from 1957 which depicts the footprint of the home you can kind of see where the back uh kind of flattens out that's the area where we're putting that addition so that footprint is substantially similar to what it was in 1957 and appears to date back to when the building was originally constructed Foundation all seems to be original um the home does have a basement does have an attic so technically uh to your point earlier it is a three story home a pre-existing non-conforming condition uh we are essentially standing out on the second floor which the facto increases the Attic by what by whatever roof area goes over that area but the footprint of the building itself stays the same uh the first floor Edition is actually going to be an overhang over the garage it does not have a foundation to it so while it intrudes into the side yard it doesn't doesn't do so at the ground level it's that intrusion is at the first floor level and that's over in the upper right hand corner this is the existing garage so this is where that overhang will occur and this this stair this will be the stair tower that goes up and this will be filled in on that l and then the addition Will Go On Top of where this roof line is and this is the front elevation of the home see there is a little bit of a peak overhang over it that's largely going to stay intact with the exception of that little porch covering that Anthony spoke about ear and just a complete assessment here this is the home that's located immediately to our West it is the home that we share the driveway with and this is the home that's immediately to our East I believe Anthony gave you the dimensions of the separation looking at the area you can see and the separations are somewhat substantial they're not in any way shape or form close together and that's also depicted in the top two photographs here this is the home to the West looking towards this is our structure here and then to the east this is the Home East of us that is our roof line and you'll see the roof lines were also very much consistent in terms of height and configuration so what what's being proposed is really maintaining the character of the front of the home um all the improvements are essentially to the side and to the rear within that envelope that the front will protect um and that was intentional and you heard Anthony's rationale behind wanting to renovate versus build new it maintains the character of the neighbor that maintains the character of all those faades because it is some very pleas SE when you drive by and look at it it's it's it's not new it's older construction and and it looks has a lot of character and I think Anthony did a great job maintaining that as well as tucking away the Improvement so that doesn't substantially increase any massing that would be visible as you by the home do you have any sense of the size of the houses to the East and the West relative to looking at the tax records and and it varied in in terms of liable area they very similar I would think a few hundred square feet what what is the existing mature vegetation and um what what are we going to lose um during this project so we're uh we are decreasing some of the patio area which will actually create an opportunity but uh the I think it's really going to be kep to a minimum because we're not creating any New Foundation area we're actually removing some impervious coverage um Anthony we see any reason to remove any of the vegetation on the front of the property not not at this point no no trees are coming up the first yeah again it's all OV existing so you know other than equipment um needing to come around we have a driveway on one side and examp on the other side we have to work something out in order to access that across the back of the property but that's existing patio that'll be ited upon anyway and those the houses on either side Andy those are those are on underside laws as well right yes yes that those are they're slightly larger than we are but not much they're certainly UND siiz for the district okay so let's talk about the variances okay so let's start with the F and again we're using the conservative uh 5132 square foot calculation so uh the R20 District permits .18 we are currently at0 519 uh we are increasing that to 665 and that is because we are adding a total of 745 square feet there're 59 square feet that are be added being added to the first floor family room that'll be the area that is protruding out over the garage and the second floor master bedroom suite which goes over that first floor element will be roughly 686 chairs the increase is 745 sare ft all to the rear and Portion to the side um we are uh undersized for the lot area we uh have 61.4 ft of Frontage where 100 ft is required our lot width measur slightly back is 62.9 where 100 is required our lot depth again to the bulkhead is 14.5 or 150 is required uh minimum front set back 50 ft spe is required 14.1 to exist to the porch and that 14.1 will be maintained by the porch and the overhang that is being added to that area along the porch minimum side setback of 14 is required where we have 5.6 to the east side and then 9.6 uh is on the east side addition so that addition will follow the footprint straight up it's being expanded upward but not outward you have 96 after the addition right yeah that's correct uh combined sidey yards 35 is required 21.3 exists today 21 uh is proposed uh parking location parking is prohibited in the front yard and is limited to 25% we have two existing parking spaces on the front that are proposed to remain there are areal parking here and here on either side of the home um minimum side yard set back for an accessory 10 ft required the existing uh air conditioning units are at 7.5 ft and that is along the Eastern property line and that is the property line that has the greatest distance to the neighbor so you're looking at separation of the homes that's that's the the greatest distance between homes it's an existing condition are you adding a new condenser no that's I believe there is no there's at least in the survey it looks like there is one today and two proposed so oh yeah on the east side we yeah okay I'm sorry we are adding for that so they will both be at 7 there's one there's one one today we have a second one proposing but but the lot line on the side isn't straight um it it veers off so the second one is set back further right it be the existing does or doesn't conform does not second one will also not conform but we be Improvement it'll be set further back but not that between it'll be between 75 and 7.5 feet and 10 feet that's required so and Jordan is siding of the second one appropriate I mean are there any other better places no they're next other maximum lot coverage 35% is required as a Max in District we are at 78.5 today 70.7 is proposed at the 7.8% reduction again that's calculated based on the 5132 square foot so so what do we know about that because I I know I can see the house has been there an awful long time but boy you certainly have a lot of lck coverage and I know you're improving it uh how did we get to this point do we have a history of permits and other variances those appear to have probably predated there is there are some papers that are in the front that again looking at historic photographs and ARS appear to have always been there uh the patio to the back I cannot date and I could not find any permits related to those any history of of any subdivisions that created these smaller lot again this was created prior to 1922 we couldn't find anything 19960 was the onlyest tax map I could locate those lots are configured as they are today the real question how that in R20 it's just because it's on the river yeah and and it is one of the pinch points in the R20 Zone you do have substantial setbacks from the river on either side of this but as I mentioned the unique situation of the road converging in River out sping in um it did create that hch point that we leave off oh building coverage uh 25% perm minute 26.3 exists will be at 27.5 and that increases the 59 square fet uh along the Westerly side and again that's not footprint that's actually the overhang over the garage door U maximum principal building height two and a half stories permitted three U exist and will continue to remain so that's an existing condition that we are expanding to the rear uh finished floor elevation shall not exceed 30 in above the average existing grade whereas our finished floor elevation exceeds the grade at 4.75 ft on average you're not changing the grade we're not changing the grade that's an existing condition minimum setback from the river shall be greater than 50 feet or the average of the existing setback of structures on the abing River Property however in no events the required setback be more than 7even 75 ft so the proposed dwelling is set back 7 feet from the face of the bulkhead along the river so we do need relief that's again existing conditions and how the home is created in relationship to not only the river but to the bulit uh there's also 30-1 13B new disturbances for projects or activities in the reparan zone established by this SE may be allowed for the zoning Board of adjustment review and approval of variant provided the servant proposed to be located on a pre-existing lot prior to August 2010 and there's sufficient room outside the reparan zone for the proposed use otherwise permitted by the underlying Zone there's no other reasonable prudent alternative again I see an existing condition that uh we we are located within 300 ft of the repairing Zone and but frankly that 300 ft was as well on the other side of River Road uh and I think that is the list of bar that I have right and you mentioned uh uh I don't know if you mentioned Andy about um we The Proposal does comply with the maximum floor area maximum floor area correct the maximum floor right maximum floor area would be 4,140 whereas we're at 3411 including the basement I believe Tony mentioned without the basement 2,675 that's right that's right um and you reviewed the master plan as well I did I did the master plan really um not only the master plan but the 2005 2016 reexaminations um talk about not only guiding appropriate development but maintaining the character of the community and I think that's what Tony uh testified to very adamantly that when he was approached about potentially doing a new new project here and new construction uh I believe appropriately guided our client to consider renovation and expansion of this home uh in such a way that it wouldn't be intrusive on the neighborhood that it would seally wouldn't create any visual impact on the neighborhood would maintain the character of the neighborhood I think we accomplished that I think that's very much consistent with your standards um all be we are in violation of the F standards that's in relationship to size of the lot as we went through the exercise earlier in terms of how it relates to the R5 and r75 I think we are right in the middle and I think when we look at scaling the home without and not counting the basement area we we are appropriately scaled for the size of the lot all be it were in a zone that we're significantly undersized for uh we also for the purposes of this board have to show that we are consistent with the objectives of Municipal land use law that means that no variant can be granted just for the benefit of the app there has to be some public reason some public purpose for the variance for some benefit to the public and I believe that there two that we uh promote with this application uh the first is to provide sufficient space and appropriate location ations for a variety of agricultural residential recreational commercial industrial uses and open space both public and private according to their respective environmental requirements to meet the needs of all citizens what we're doing here I think is is a tasteful renovation and expansion of home what we're proposing is it's a three-bedroom home it's by no means MC Mansion which is what f is intended to control it's they're reasonably size bedrooms the two front bedrooms will not be altered a master suite will be created for the back it brings it up to to more modern standards in terms of livability and expectations for closet space number of bathrooms in a home and I think this type of addition will preserve the character of the home and prolong its shelf life as opposed to it being a tear down and a rebuild uh we also promote m in the ml which is to encourage coordination of various public and private procedures and activities shaping Land Development with a view of lessening such cost and such development for a more efficient use of land again I think we're point with that we are renovating a house it's certainly more cost effective than a tear down but it's also something uh that is a more efficient use of the land creates less trash first of all when we talk about the green aspects of it but uh again when we're looking to preserve the character of the neighborhood and we're looking to keep the context of the neighborhood because this is an unusual portion of the R20 Zone uh I think we're on point with that and I think it is an efficient use of of the property given all the restrictions it has um and when we look about um all the configurations and what we're doing to light air in open space really not doing anything that's significantly more intrusive than what's already there the house is existing um the improvements are going straight up into the back we're honoring the setbacks uh but for a small deviation and it's all it's again it's all to the rear and and the house will continue to read um as that kind of cozy the historic house that it is that brings us to variance relief so with respect to the de4 that is an F variance and unlike a D1 use variance the standard is what's known as the Coventry St Square maybe we have to discuss the impact of the deviations on the lot and on the neighborhood as opposed to whether the site's particularly suited so in this case the variance uh is for floor area ratio um and we are including with that the basement area uh that floor area ratio is calculated against a significantly larger lot area than we have to deal with um which is why I thought it was a good exercise to balance that with some of the smaller lot uh zones within the community to see how this house would fit in and I think uh the conclusion was correct it's kind of right in the middle of the R5 r75 in terms of what the expectations is it's certainly not a is significantly imposing house for the lot it's consistent with the setbacks in the neighborhood in terms of the front setbacks we are deviating from that and it is by your our20 standard a significant deviation but when you look at it in context of the neighbors we're very much in line with what the neighborhood setbacks are um the homes to either side of us have ample room to the sides uh they have their own rear yards for enjoyment the front yard setbacks are fairly consistent so when look at the impact of the deviation because we're going straight up because we're tucking that into the back the impact on the neighborhood the impact on the community is really diminished through the design considerations that that Anthony put forth so when we look at this I think uh we certainly have tempered the deviation and we look to the negative prongs are we consistent with your master plan are we doing anything to significantly impair your zoning ordinance or M or any Comm Community impacts and I don't believe we are uh the massive plan seeks to maintain the standards of the community to maintain the character of the neighborhood we do that u in terms of impact we're not increasing the intensity of the land use it'll continue to be a single family home we be with three bedrooms instead of two uh we're not creating any additional traffic we're not creating any additional noise um we indicated that if need be we can put a drywall to the rear there is ample space to do that if uh if any issues happened but we are reducing the overall impervious so we think it'll continue to operate at the very least the way it is today um so in terms of the D variance really I think we're very much on point uh with meeting the criteria under the Coventry standard can we can we explore that training Mr certain Mr so Mr BR I'm I'm a little troubled by the lock coverage um and if you had a whole bunch of permits and everything was permitted I think I'd be less troubled by it because I don't think it's uh something to raise but I'm wondering I'm hearing the dry well is possible Mr Gondor said the same um if the the ports off fit to Grant the application to Grant the variances is there an opportunity to get all the leaders into a dryw and actually improve this situation um recognizing that we are AB budding the river and that's um a big concern and I think soils would be conducive for sale have so only still Mr Ryan is that something you would be aable to uh yes yes put in dry putting in dry Wells if necessary in order to pick up the sure cap the Run agreed about a plan showing the location and then detail showing what you're you're constructing along with sure that actually works yeah additional question of the D so that brings us to the the bulk variances um and as this board is more than well aware bulk variances can be adjudicated under one of two SC to C1 the hardship standards and existing condition that can cannot be mod modified or burdens modify and the flexible C2 with the balance test um the C1 criteria is appropriate by which to review thing that we have no control over things like lot area lot Frontage lot width lot depth front setback number of stories um and again we would like to maintain the location of vehicles those are existing conditions and it's how that lot is parked appropriate to meet the recess standard um those are conditions that we proposing that are existing conditions uh that we think would create greater challenges if we had to alter and I'm specifically speaking with with respect to the parking than otherwise uh with respect to the other uh variances that we went through I would argue the C2 criteria the balance test and under the balance test we'd have to indicate that the each of those uh relates to a specific piece of property and it does it's that the advances the purposes of the municipal land use law and I believe I put two on the record that the benefits of the deviation would outweigh any detriment so so the benefits of those deviations that includes the air conditioning components and the the additions to the back and the intrusions into the additional the height to the back on the side yards um th those all are there to maintain the Integrity of the house and the neighborhood and to still make it something that's livable in the future the benefits of all those deviations cumulatively uh will will preserve essentially the footprint of the house uh improving the impervious which I think is is an overall benefit to this area given that the lots are sdes to begin with um but when we look at it in context that that will be preserved and frankly once the construction's done um there'll be very I believe there'll be very little uh indication to the P the Casual passer by that any has changed to a lot because all thater to the back and I think that's substantial benefit uh of this application as opposed to creating issues with building new having to come in for substantial relief for a new structure because of all the variances that would be required and to not only noise but construction debris and intend prolonged disturbances that new construction would create so I do believe that there's a positive to that with respect to the negative criteria we have to talk about whether there's a substantial detriment to the public good and again in this case we're maintaining this as a single family house will be owner occupied by Mr Ryan he's seing to use this as a retirement home uh he is seeking to make it livable with that master bedroom suite to the back and it's appropriately located not only in terms of being able to hide that essentially or to blend that addition away from the street but also to take advantage of the unique location and the views of the river so you know it ually it has substantial uh benefits to it uh but also without creating any kind of detriment because it is minimizing any impact upon the neighborhood and again I talked about things noise runoff trash traffic none of that would be expanded or intensified by this it will continue to operate as a single family home uh and then finally that the variants will not substantially impair the intent and purpose of the Zone plan and zoning ordinance again we are we are undersizing we are trying to work with the the intent of the ordinance and not only looking at the R20 but looking at the other residential districts in terms of what expectations would be we do believe we maintain U the Integrity of scaling this appropriately for the size of the lot even though it is under size and more importantly scaling it appropriately in terms of neighborhood context I do believe we advance those purposes within your master plan and within your Zone plan so when you look at this on balance I do believe the the bulk es that be put into the record can be granted without substantial detriment to either any of the neighbors to the community or to your master plan questions for Mr J doesn't look like it thank you what else you have Mr pres chair that's what that's all I have for this evening be Witnesses any board members have any questions of um the applicant or or or professional before we open to the PO okay gosh everybody's here for a reason I don't know if you're here for this uh anybody that has any comments or questions regard to the Ryan application now be the time I'll here for something else okay let the record reflect uh we have no public comments anything in closing Mr Bros in closing very brief um we heard the testimony from from from Mr pendor and Mr jenu Chu I think the board will agree it's been a thought it's a thoughtful process it's it's it's a lot that's based many challenges based on its existing position its existing size um I think um kudos to to to the Ryan for going the renovation route as opposed to um uh raised and rebuild probably will end up uh being more expensive to do this way but but more importantly as Mr as Mr Kor and Mr Jan you testify um uh makes it easier and better to keep the house keeping the house more uh in line both physically but also aesthetically and and architecturally with the other homes in the area um so that that street street gape is maintained that process has gone through a number of iterations and I think what has been presented to the board is something that you know I think the Ryan and Mr Pandoras are proud of and hopefully the board is as well thank you discussion um not sure that the applicants their professionals were aware that they lock themselves into the more restrictive version of the reparan buffer ordinance when we took jurisdiction prior the old one yeah but um I mean since obviously the intent of the governing body is to fix that you know I don't really have much to say about that except um not much to say about that um beyond that um there were comments about the the parking situation and the impervious surface and and that they believe those were pre-existing non-conformities I'm not sure they PR um coordinates um I don't think that the shared driveway would be there if those two brick parking pads had been there I'm sure that those date back past 2008 um but I don't believe that they date back to 1960 or whatever it was um I don't know why these small locks by the river tend to accumulate so much in perious surface and lck coverage if you look at this property and the one next to it they they're sort of paav front to back with um parking and decks and patios and pools and things I'm very happy to hear that they're willing to put in a um a dry well in the appropriate place to recapture as much of the uh storm order as possible because I I feel like the the front and side parking situation there contributes a lot to to run off that just going so I really appreciate that um I I realize it's an undersized lot it's it's just because it's really poorly Mis zoned by the municipality I that's just a function of the fact that it's on the river um and they stretch that along um I I think there were comparisons to the houses on either side which from the tax records appear to only be about 2,000 square feet and 24 to 2500 square feet um that's probably a function of the basement uh maybe yeah that's that's a big difference but um they said it's it's it's masked away from where it's going to be seen by the P public primarily um the public does see the back of these as well um you know when they're using the river and you know they'll they'll see some of that but it's uh it's already they're going to see the back of the front twostory section ready so it's just moving back towards the river a little bit and on that scale it doesn't difference um so this is um this involves a d just so everybody remembers we've got seven votes and we need five affirmatives in order for this application to proceed um or in order for this application who else um I mean obviously we know the lot's Miss Zone if we look at the seven and a half and I originally looked at a five but with the modest measurement of the lot I think we can pretty much call this more like a seven and a half and I think the numbers work well aside from now we're still over the max for 7 and a half at 3411 uh but that being said the basement really does count a lot into this calculation so you have to you know I know it's there but I I kind of tend to discount it um I appreciate that they use the more modest lock lock uh measurement because we' run into that in the past and I think the numbers just work a lot better on the S and a half the impact is all to the readers Al said um I think there's sufficient space East and West that the the neighbors are not going to be affected I think it's a minimal effect affectation to both sides East and the west and I think it's a good plan maintaining the character of the house is an excellent idea um we always want to see renovation rather than tear I like I think it's good I think it's a nice plan I think it's a good presentation as well congratulations on that one and um and the bonus of of putting in the uh dryw kind of uh does us a big favor we know that the state and the town is looking at storm water management fact that it is on the river small narrow lot we really would appreciate the Dy doing and and I'm support um I would agree with Peter mesnik um challenging a lot and keeping it within the character of uh River Road which is kind of important thorough Fair through town I drive up and down that road constantly uh that is a very Charming stretch of uh Road in Fair Haven and to keep the character uh renovating as opposed to tear down and building new I think is what we want uh I think the plan is uh as good as it's going to get for that lot uh everything is towards the back um with the addition of the dryw which I would put as a condition uh to this approval uh I also would like to we mentioned removing some of the impervious uh coverage in the Back Horn um I would like that removed as well because as you can see from that overview uh silting is a huge problem with that Cove and it's just something that gets worse year by year by year uh so anything we can do to alleviate that would be very helpful uh I would also suggest um I don't know what is planted along with the bulkhead but since that property is on a slope there is a lot of water that just runs down that Hill if we could if if the owner Mr Ryan if you could put some uh grasses and stuff along the bulkhead I think it would alleviate some of the off that's going to happen that way too so anything that you can do uh would be appreciated but those two things defin our condition I want to ask you about the removal of the impervious because I think the the applicant had proposed to remove some of the impervious and that's effectively what the proposal is are you talking about removing something in no no no that was it somebody acknowledging and appreciating that it's beinged okay yeah no but I want that to be like well it's already in the record so sorry the photo on the back of the engineers letter shows the condition the Landscaping along that wall there looks like it's pretty standard yeah native not grasses native stuff the the more we can do because that I'm very familiar with that code and it's the 10 or 12 years that I've been down here it has gotten remarkably worse and when you go down the end of Browns Lane just you know just blowing down uh silk run off everything uh you're not proposing to add a condition you're just simply making a statement that you think the grasses would be nice right exactly suggestion even even with the drywall I wonder about leeching of uh material or run off into the into the river and uh I I don't know how you answer that question I think the overall presentation has been excellent uh I think that I can understand why there's so many houses there in proximity because everybody wants a piece of the river and uh as they as they should I mean it's a it's a very attractive location and it's a very a very nice view looking at it I do think it's a difficult lot uh I don't uh I don't have a problem with h the fact that most of the the bulk has been placed into the rear of the property and uh I think everything considered everything that's been done has been done very Tastefully and U I'm fine with it nothing that has already been said I I think the presentation was good uh appreciate the drywall we've been working on that I do think that the bulk is not so much to the back of the house as it appears or I took a lot of time to kind of slowly drive it to the sh of people holding the horn behind but there really nowh to bark without getting clicked so um miles an hour now so yeah that's probably so um but I think it's outweigh by the fact that you're going to keep the you know you're going to keep home it is an incredibly Charming stretch when you come down it it's like very welcoming right you see the you know fairy been sort of uh light post and you come around the stretch get a little Vista of the water so it will be nice that that's uh being kept and generally I'm supportive of it conditioned on the Dy all the other things but I do think once it's built it is going to be bul here than we all think because especially when you come around that curve it's not it's not the back of the house you you see the whole side of the home and when you come down from this way you won't see it but you do as you're coming up towards rson you see the whole side profile of the house it's not like you just you know grab a a piece of like that P go right kind of what it feels like I know this wasn't intenal but kind of what it feels like is hey we have this little entrance so let's use this as an excuse to go up and then let's just Square Off the house and say hey well it's not that bad because you know we're not add so I think that's outweighed by the other stuff generally supportive of it I do think it'll be bulkier than we think [Music] so anything more nothing really to add hasn't already been said I I think uh Paul said it pretty well the applications probably that's the best you're going to get on the slot and I appreciate the consideration dry while of course and i would support the application so I would I would comment that um this is the reason that you can't take numbers and just look at numbers right this is the reason for the board this application is the reason that I took the time to be here tonight and participate um the application is as good as it gets Mr Ryan I want to thank you for what you designed this is one of the reasons why all of this room wants to be iner um I think that on balance you're struggling with a whole bunch of things and I think that you've done an excellent job putting it together in a way that's going to bring you a new house in a way that um that isn't going to substantially change the character in this area I want to address the issue of the front had the applicant had an entirely grass front yard and requested a variant um for additional loot coverage in order to put parking there given the street uh I think you could make a compelling argument and I think a lot of of the other homes have either put it in on their own or come before board an argued that as a matter of safety to get those cars off the street and to find a place to tuck a car is super important and is not the only thing that's important but I think it's it's a significant factor um I think that the dryw that we discussed and I'm going to make a motion and I'm going to include uh the requirement that there be a drywell that's suitable for all of the runoffs of the as completed structure I I think that that does as much as the applicant could do to negate that uh tonight I'm struggling a little bit with the basement not because of the math but because I I'm struggling with the 3,400 feet going to the tax accessor um it is not the intent it was not the intent of changing the ordinances for Mr Ryan to pay for 800 feet of storage habitable space and there's one main reason that I feel comfortable that Mr Ryan isn't going to be fing that basement because the garage is in the best spot to use that lower level and so most people would have that lower level with Windows and you would look out and it would be great and um my inclination is to identify that as a basement and to identify the house um with with regard to the approval as technically a 3400 but acknowledging that that basement is a basement um I think we could put some language in there with regard to the testimony to make sure that it's conditioned on the plans being exactly as they are there was testimony that it's not he Rec cooled and it isn't finished and for so long as that's the case at least to the extent that this board has an impact on what the assess does I think that we should qualify that as a basement um the only other thing that I that I have is that there is some substantial vegetation over there I recognize that the um developed area is not directly going to impact that vegetation but what really tends to happen even when that doesn't happen is that the trucks are everywhere we're destroying the roots and we lose things a few years later and so I would simply like to um add into the resolution um the board's desire for the applicant to take Extra Care uh to make sure that everything is preserved particularly the larger mature stuff um and then you know hopefully it all works out um we've also heard the comment with regard to the vegetation at the bottom by the bulkhead and I think that that was a good comment although I don't think we're adding that as a condition so short anybody telling me that to think about of my mind i' would like to make a motion to approve the application just one other condition that you will make sure that your numbers on your exhibits that we had when you said numb some of those numbers subm resubmit those exhibits to the accurate numbers okay so um the uh promotion will be to approve the application based on the accuracy of the record and the material that were submitted I do not have a little C the um the the three uh the three conditions if you will to identify inside of that is first of all the dine um I know that Jordan wants to see a look uh take a look at the at the specs uh I think the focus is to make sure that it has the capacity to manage the drainage uh from the Improvement the entirety of the house um so that we can improve that condition and make it better um and so that would be number one um number two would be that there' be um that there be special care or care or something make sure that that vegetation is preserved um I don't want it to go crazy I just I just want it written down um and the last thing is that um I want there to be a statement in the resolution that while the ordinances technically defined this is 34 whatever it is that the I propose that the board recognize that we have a basement here based on the following facts and then I'd like that to recite the existing layout the test that it's not heated and cooled it is not finished it is not used at habitable Spa as habitable space there is a garage that is a component it's located right there at the side of the river and as a result of all of that that the board concludes that it is not typical living space and that the board doesn't consider it to be anything more um than a basement and that it shouldn't be counted and want our number the number without that in the resolution and my think cross the the assessor uh appreciates that as well uh that's my motion roll call yes Angel yes Mr ran yes Mr Forte yes Mr Walker yes Mr canel yes Mr I don't think you get to me have seven no yeah that's it how you got you me yep thank you m so really really good thank you that's a lot yeah we're gonna we're gonna take a five minute recess while they get you here here yes Mr ran here yes here here here here like to confirm that have jurisdiction anybody going to testify this application everybody stand up you think you're going to say something you might say something you want to say something I ask youir testimony you give before this truth the whole truth nothing about the truth same instruction 74 you all sit down relax now answer yes um before you start testifying just state your name for the record spell your last name for the record so that we have actually an idea of who's speaking if we have to make a transcrip to this record put down ministerial by B exhibit follow director of your Council once you call here's what I have for exhibits sir cover letter from the applic attorney August 24 two pages A1 list of variances two pages dated September 6 2023 the development application consisting of 10 pages A3 one copy of eight pictures of the property not dated but depicting various views or providing various images about the property Mark A4 A5 the 200 this from the tax assessor dat of July 20th 23 A6 the topograph boundary and topographic survey by Insight survey July 1st 2023 A7 copies of the H variance and minor site plan prepared by Insight engineering revised to excuse me November 10 23 uh land use development regulations checklist consisting of 11 pages inclusive of the list of variances and waivers A8 uh architectural plans titled renovation to 550 river lock River Road lock 10 33 fa Haven revised to November 2nd 2023 um again another cover letter from the applicant Council the aans dated November 17 2023 response letter from Insight basically responsing to the engineer comments dated November 15 2023 and then we have the CNA review Mark that zb1 October 10 2023 over the signature of Gordon Rizzo uh zb2 that's again a CM review letter of December 5th 2023 and a signature of Jordan Rizo I don't know if you any additional we mark them as we go Council sure can just remind we at A1 now a that's where yes sir there were a few items list that they receiving L St okay why you help us run through want help us run through yeah I think that's that all enthus on the list of waivers and variances that we Mark was or you see something different I'm referring to CV2 which is the first two are draft notices to the uh property owners and newspaper which I did no exception to because I'm sure at this point it's been reviewed and confirm jurisdiction do we use um the next three are n county n county plan board application PR FD application and Mammoth County Health Department application um I'm sure the applicant will agree to derive final approvals should they be applicable for this project Jordan I'm gonna stop you right there I believe Mr Ro I announce I'm refusing myself very good did advise I'm sorry I stepped on your stepping down sorry no problem and then the next four in my opinion are not applicable for this application given scope it's a Wetlands Loi storm water design profiles of roads and utilities and of soil erosion any questions about the proposed labors you got to do a formal vote we okay any any of the W separated out no all a quick roll call I'm G to make a motion to accept the proposed waers as listed by Jordan I'll second yesel yes Mr R yes Mr yes yes Mr yes Mr ler yes thank you chairman good evening board members mark aens on beh of the applicant m550 with Road LLC um ladies and gentlemen today's significance is not lost on student of History some 82 years ago the United States was deliberately and uh without notice attacked and I bring this point up not to share a history lesson but to say that u in reviewing a little bit of history today myself I noticed that the um campaign that led to the attack on the Hawaiian islands and the Naval Base at Pearl Harbor actually originated many years before when the Japanese uh Imperial Army decided that their Northern strategy in China was not succeeding and so they then changed tactics and moved towards a southern strategy to secure the uh oil fields and the other natural resources in the in the Southwest Pacific uh that change obviously changed world history and on a smaller level uh we're here today because in December of 1968 this Zoning Board of adjustment first approved this site as a proposed bank so um that was a few years back as well and um just as a little bit of History so the ripples from 1968 are ripples that continue today in 2023 and that's what brings us all together this evening well done Mr thank you very much I do appreciate that chairman thank you for the IND actually a question I had as to when this became event in in a residential G thank aesome thank you um again we date to the board's resolution of December 17 1968 construction circuit 1971 where's where's the resolution I haven't seen it I'll would you like to see it I sure would brother talk was not on on the board that day take it away M thank you very much so as we know this is um a a proposed uh uh Redevelopment and an Adaptive reuse of the former PNC Bank building on River Road at 550 River Road um again uh the proposal is to use the first of the building uh to permit um personal exercise studio um and the second floor to permit a related personal service use these uses require D variances because this is a resid residentially zone property this is in the R5 Zone believe it or not here we are some 50 years later still in the R5 Zone um with me this evening will be um uh several principles of the OWN owner and I had noted to um to Mr kobat that uh originally some months back when we submitted the application and we made the disclosure of the uh owners of the LLC there was just one owner Andrew Anderson today he's brought on two partners his sister-in-law Melissa manuso who's here this evening but will not be giving testimony and Mike Duffy who again is going to be the Principal tenant um and who is also an equal member and who will be giving testimony so just to note that for our record um as well in addition there are not surprisingly given the use the former use of the property there are a number of existing non-conforming conditions um there um there will be testimony from in addition to the principles uh from James Anderson licensed architect and to my right Jason Fisher professional engineer and licensed professional planner and again Mr Duffy as well as Mr Anderson so uh with that I know they've been sworn um May I place Mr Fisher's credentials on the record please we we can stipulate Jason how many times we've done this 150,000 anybody have an objection to accepting thank you very much thank you uh Mr pitcher good evening um I'm wondering if you can give the board a little orientation as to where this property is located in relation to Road and the R5 Zone just to start as off oh sure yeah we're um we're on the south side of River Road um on the western end of what I'll call the what your master plan refers to as the business district Main Street kind of fi um it appears to be a portion of the B1 Zone that it's adjacent to um right there on the corner of River Road and Smith Street terrific is there a handout that we could Mark or so I have two exib iits they're both up on the board I also have handouts if you guys would like should we distribute yeah let's do that please okay so we're going to Mark um what's identified as 550 River Road neighborhood exhibit is that or site layout exhibit s layout exhibit will be a12 yeah yeah 812 date dat date is oh sorry 7 2023 I also have another exhibit labeled the neighborhood exhibit also dated December 7 uh it's the same exhibit I believe a13 right so uh it's the same exhibit as a12 just zoomed out and we show an aerial of the neighborhood with uh the 200 foot radius around the subject property and we also show The Zone boundaries with the Zone labels uh and we also have conveniently tax block and loock shown just for so that's a yep okay all right so I'll walk you through the engineering site orientation portion of things and then I'll I'll step aside for a few this is Block 33 Lot 10 other known as 550 River Road we all know it as the bank property so everybody seems to refer to it as the lot itself is1 19,000 252 square feet we're in the R5 Zone uh the R5 Zone coincidentally requires Lots be at least 7,000 square ft we're directly adjacent to the G1 Zone to our East and the uses in the neighborhood are mixed residential and Commercial again the commercial uses are generally in line along River Road and then the residential uses surround that as was discussed the bank was approved in around 19 19 in actually in 1968 was constructed somewhere around 69 or 70 and I believe it started to operate around 70 or 71 and it's back then it was in essentially the same form that it's in today so the aping to seek an approval to repurpose the existing building as what they like to refer to as a wellness center and as far as the appin is concerned uh from their perspective when they first got into this project or are no site improvements that were required but when the professionals got involved we took a look considered the uses and your ordinance we recognize that some site improvements uh would be necessary or appropriate in response to your ordinance than just for General use of the property the building itself requires minor res um Renovations and that's in order to accommodate the proposed uses the main reason that we're here tonight is for use variance relief to to to continue as a non-residential use on this property and we're also requesting some minor uh incidental bulk variances so the existing Bank building is is known well to everyone it faces River Road uh there are two drive-thru Windows one on the east and one on the west side of the building the parking lot for the property is on the east side which is on the corner of River Road and Smith Street the circulation pattern is oneway ingress from Smith Street near the intersection of River Road that's the East end of the parking lot and then there's two oneway erress driveways along River Road one for each of the drive-through Windows one of those um exit driveways provides egress to River Road for both the uh one of the drive Windows as well as the parking it's like a double wide driveway Mr Rizzo calls it two however you look at it's a big wide driveway terms of utilities we anticipate that all the existing uh utility connections will continue to serve the building we don't see a need for connecting to new utilities obviously during construction utility company or the professionals at the time may say otherwise but from what we could tell right now there's going to be no need for additional utility connections for storm water we're only proposing about 243 square feet of soil disturbance for the project which in terms of storm water is virtually nothing we also happen to be reducing lot coverage which further supports an improvement on storm water management for the property by regulation there there's no storm water management facilities that are necessary and technically by the Numbers the proposed runoff from the property will be less than the existing because of the reduction in per surfaces we are proposing to maintain the same circulation pattern that was in place for the bank again Vehicles will enter from Smith Street and they'll exit to River Road we're using the former drive-throughs for parking both of them um and they both have immediate exits to River Road which is convenient your ordinance permits up to two driveways per Street Frontage and Visually again that's what we have uh but the driveway in the middle of our River Road Frontage is wide uh in Mr Rizzo's letter he ped out as two driveways and if that your interpretation then we would require a design waiver for that that would then make three driveways on River Road but in reality we're only proposing to maintain what the bank has been using for about 50 years Mr P the when the bank had it I'm pretty sure they used that second the driveway to the West as employee parking will that be maintained as employee parking or is that going to be used for clients yeah I'm I'm going to walk you through that but spoiler alert yes that's intended as an employee parking space you're talking about the place where we show one spot uh I'll walk yes yes yeah that's employee far from you got um also the proposed uses are going to generate less traffic than the bank did and when I walk you through a little bit about the operations you'll you'll understand what I mean about that so in terms of traffic we don't anticipate any issues so one of the most significant benefits of this application is Improvement to the parking situation so the bank required 43 parking spaces or requires uh by your ordinance today it required 43 um the proposed use requires only 19 so their parking demand is reduced by 24 spaces and to add to this benefit we're also able to increase the number of parking spaces from the eight that are there today to 16 that we show on the proposed plan so we calculated the required number of parking spaces from your ordinance which is one space per 200 square ft of training area um and we also have a note on there about Prof professional office we're not proposing professional office we would just like to keep the door open for professional office in case there's tenant issues it's it's permitted in the B1 I'll get into that more but in terms of parking the parking demand for professional office is less than these training their Fitness Studios so I I want to understand the proposed use um I understand that the lower level is proposed to be renovated for this Wellness Studio as I we're calling it and um how is the second floor proposed to be used for the same tenant or for a different tenant different different tenant which Mr Anderson will testify to Chairman okay yes and so the parking requirements I find it curious if the bank requirements are over 40 uh although I did see in the resolution that there was a testimony uh during the original approval that there would be offsite parking identified to accommodate the overage um what is the origin of did you say 18 is what what you require based on your proposed uses so 19 and I'm going to dig into that further for you but 19 is the number and 16 proposed correct okay Y when you say Wellness do you mean Physical Therapy we're going to we're going to have specific testimony by Mr Duffy with regard to his use and the proposed tenant in the second floor doctor with regard to Mr Anderson's testimony we'll get we'll get into that very specifically this is a general overview of the site ISS issues then I'm going to present the architect so that he can review the architecturals with you then I'm going to present Mr Duffy then I'm going to present Mr Anderson with regards to the specific uses if that is of assistance thank you thank you Mr Fisher the 19 spaces is just for the for the fitness though right it's the whole building oh that's the whole building that up included okay can I make one comment um about the existing parking um Banks require the same as the proposed use it's one for 200 but it also says that you need room room for 12 automobiles for driveing window Andor land for queuing purposes so I think the the 40 was 43 43 I think that speaks more to uh queuing where you wouldn't have queuing on the post application that's correct and that's the benefit of this application is to reduce the demand to store vehicles on the property exactly want clarify that yep and S TRS y absolutely all right so um as far as our parking calculation goes I just want to clarify we we come up with the number 19 based on square footage of the building and that includes what is actually an unusable portion of the second floor there's a portion up there you'll hear from Mr Anderson there's a portion up there that's that's cluttered with duct work and utilities and all that kind of stuff the second floor architectural plans actually divides that off because it can't be used um it's about 450 Square ft which if we D deduct that from the parking requirement your your ordinance would then calculate out to needing 16 which is what we had but just to be clear we're calling it 19 not 16 we're counting that 450 in our parking population I'm just giving you context that it includes an area we cannot use so that's a conservative determination on your part Mr picture that's correct um now in reality the applicant doesn't even need 19 spaces and the reason for this is that these tenants and I'm going to give you an overview you'll hear more detail they operate by appointments and small groups this is not a a typical gym where people come and go as they please and sometimes they come in slugs and leave in slugs this is really training by appointment or scheduled times as individuals or small groups with a with a cap uh so the 16 parking spaces that we're proposing are going to be more than adequate for what these tenants are looking to do four of the excuse me four of the parking spaces we provide are parallel parking parking spaces and your ordinance does not address parallel parking spaces so we called Upon Our experience uh and used parallel parking spaces 7 feet wide by 22 feet long which is not uncommon um and I want to pause there for a second because Mr Rizzo and I had a conversation earlier today um and Jordan don't let me speak for you but I'll give an overview and cut me to but um he would prefer to see the parallel spaces eight feet wide um we're okay with that with one exception the the parallel parking space that's closest to Smith Street if we were to make it 8T wide we would not have the adequate drive a width for the parking spaces that are head-on to River Road so uh there are two things that we could do there in that space uh one is we can actually shorten it from 22t to 18 ft because it's actually not a parallel parking space even though that's what it'll look like you can pull straight in there's no parking behind it so an 18t depth would be good I wasn't able to check yet if we make that space 18 feet um uh 18 ft deep and 8 feet wide if we' still have the 18 ft uh Drive AIS WID but if we don't that one space could potentially be left at s feet wide um 18 ft deep the other spaces could be made 8 ft wide uh 22t long as shown in any case obviously what we're trying to do is provide parking within the uh existing development that's on the property how I do you hit it um okay yeah so I guess that's really discussion for the board if everybody understands um there's four parallel parking spaces um on the south of property the eastern most parallel space you wouldn't need the full 22 length 22 ft length to drive past it and and reverse back into it you can actually just enter it straight on so I I wouldn't take exception to that being shrunk to down down to 18 ft so that way when we have the the angle spaces which are skewed you actually get more Drive aisle width by shrinking it shrinking the length down B what we're really talking about is how far the stripes go right correct and so at the end of the day what's really going to be determined of how much room there is to move around is how close people Park to curve not necessarily where that stripe in well that's always the case with parallel parking that's true okay okay all right so um I also want to clarify the parking space uh behind the bank not the one we talked about earlier the one that's actually behind the bank it has the label number one with the circle around it if you're looking at the plan Our intention with that space is simply to provide a standard 9 by8 parking space we pushed it Forward which is is plan left or west uh in order to leave enough room for the vehicle accessing the first parallel parking space that's how we determine the placement of that 9 by8 parking space I have a question on going back to your parallel spaces sure how much is there is there a there's a fence there now isn't there there is is that the bank property fence or the resident fence that the budet yeah so it's on the bank's property I didn't see the the neighbor side of it I didn't want to go over there but curious when you park cuz obviously you're coming in and your car door is going to be on the fence side and how much room is there between that fence and it's very close I have a photo of it if you want to reference it's pretty tight to the curve isn't it page 12 [Music] and fit Li zb2 so that fence is referenced in the resolution it is um and so it would appear that that fence was probably constructed in accordance with since it's been replaced in accordance with the original yes but the underlying question ties back to whether or not if we marked it at eight or marked it at seven or four whether or not it really matters at the end of the day people are going to pull as close to the curve as they can but they they're going to have to leave room to get out what's the reality of that situation G the location of the P think there's two parts to it um I think Fe brings up a good point is the fence is right behind the curve line so you don't have much room for your door there but the way I was looking at it is with a 7 foot wide parking space a larger sized truck might protrude out beyond that if you were to park right up on the curve you might have a car that's even if you were right and the reality is that everybody's not going to pull off as close to the cve as we might want to design for no um so even though we would have the parking space Stripes going s feet wide in reality Vehicles would probably extend out beyond that into so let's go to the next level right so what's the impact of that is there is there anything about the way the balance of the site is laid out that is that would change if we accepted that it's more likely to be 9 feet by the time so as you go from left I'm sorry right to the left which is east to west the drive aisle expands it gets wider um so by striping it wider as you go further left it doesn't have much of an issue because you have plenty of Drive AE um the issue that Mr Fitcher brings up is his pinch point is where the 18 is labeled um and to have a compliant Drive aisle with he has to in that 18t so the proposed solution would be it to widen it is to shrink that space so as you move it a little bit to the left he may get more drive out by doing that was it contemplated to remove some of the uh impervious sidewalk I'm sure it was um in front of the parking spaces um to create greater depth so those those cars could pull pull four feet further in well the the desire was to actually keep the That Sidewalk so that when you park you have a route to the building rather than walking through the parking lot there's a sidewalk there that's what that's so okay I agree I think this isn't a traditional parking lot where you have 90° spaces on each side there's the angled spaces there parallel spaces so giving the drivers a a clear route to get out and I think that's a Sac condition side needs to work um I'll be interested to observe whether or not people wind up using that sidewalk in the end and whether or not a better use of it would be but you contemplated it we talked about it a little bit let's keep going okay uh there was a comment in Mr Rizzo's review letter about uh Drive f with and and I just wanted to clarify that we were just talking um that same 9 by8 space with the number one label in it behind that space you see a dimension of 10.9 feet that's not really intended to be a drive up that is the parking space so the idea is you would pull into that single 9 by8 parking space the 10.9 shows that you have 9 fet to make that move um and you also have the ability to back out and exit which is the intention that space and that first parallel space has plenty of room to operate to get in and out um we also show a parking space near the Western drive-thru it also has a number one label in it which is really just a count we're not labeling the parking spaces we're just showing you how many are there that space is intended as an employee space and it's labeled that way that space is going to see very little turnover um very little activity and uh there was a comment Mr R and I talked about earlier we can put signage up on that driveway to make it clear that driving through there is for staff only again working within the confines of the existing development we thought there would be a benefit to provide parking within the pavement that exists today rather than the start if that's a if that's a parking spot uh on the western side of the building doesn't that person have to back out onto River Road oh no so I'm sorry so the the entrance so the two driveways on River Road they have show on [Music] the the two driveway on River Road today have do not enter signs on both sides of the driveway so that four do not enter sign two here and two here we would continue that in order to get to this parking space here you would enter from Smith drive through and park and you would then have a clear exit right out to River Road but isn't there an additional parking spot behind the building ni so the the employee space is the one that's on the western end um there's going to be so the it's presume that the employee is going to get there first right by the way there's 16 spaces on here as you hear more testimony about the use and how this thing operates I think what you're going to find is 16 spaces aren't going to get used so it might not even be an issue right um but no the idea is that a staff would pull in there they would not need to pull in pull out they're in the place for their class they get their first they leave last that's the idea so we don't anticipate there' be a conflict the the uh the handicap space you have in the existing drive-thru um are you leaving the structure there the drivethru structure or is that okay yep that kind of nice the employee only space on the West Side that's not going to be strikes right oh it wasn't intended to be but we could okay um I guess I'll leave that to the board but my concern with that is how would the employee know how far to pull forward are they going to pull all the way to the driveway or they gonna so yeah stay back and then if they stay back too far does that leave the ability for someone to pull in River Road incorrectly and maybe get stuck there well there there are the do not enter signs on either side of that driveway you're ALS Al going to hear the architect talk about the fact that there it's a covered drive-thru you have the the building to your right and then you have a small Port what used to be the the teller window I guess we call it on the left um you're going to hear the architect talk about repurposing that area so a car car a car would not park in front of that space it would prevent somebody from getting in there so but we could sign it if that may Park here some what's the what's the sight triangle if you're employee and you're coming out of here you're going to make a left what does that look like on that corner there you know we didn't we didn't analyze it but I do believe it's pretty open and it's a straight stretch of road with with no dramatic elevation change so I I think the uh the sites are there and that was probably not by mistake you the bank used it in the same fashion I was employee parking for the bank so yeah so I just want to take an opportunity and and a in a brief pause point out that it's 9:30 um I would like to go not later than 10:30 um and so I just want Mr Rens for you to think about how you want to manage your time um board does have a planner here tonight as well um and the planner has not submitted anything in writing um but I'd like to hear um from our planner um in terms of some testimony orally with the bter thought I'm not saying that needs to happen tonight um and you know maybe maybe everyone's got only five minutes worth of stuff to talk about but I just wanted to identify that for you so we don't get attention thank you y I mean since we're talking about the parking circulation all that any consideration made to closing the double wide um entrance onto River Road that you know in the interest of maybe pedestrian safety and expanding your parking across the front of the property there or Andor reversing the circulation so that the parallel parking spots would work against The Back Fence and entering from River Road entering from River Road on the west side of the bank circulating around the back well the building circulating around the back providing a lefthanded exit from your car on the parallel parking Against The Back Fence and if you close that double wide going back onto River Road increasing pedestrian safety across that sidewalk and having people exit onto the slower speed Smith Street there in addition when you reverse the circulation cars that come off of River Road on the Smith Street are not going to get hung up there if there's a car stopped looking for a parking space in the entrance to the parking lot they're going to be able to that they're not going to be able to go in there so these are just my thoughts on the circulation issue on the property there um were any of those things considered you just going to go with what's there well largely you know again the project started out with the applican saying this is turn keave you know how do I get in there and you know we talked about some things that need to be done understand just you know if it's not broke don't fix it but this is an opportunity yeah so fix absolutely so recall ladies and gentlemen that of course this is County Route 10 and the county has exclusive jurisdiction over the curve cuts and the traffic the County's master plan provides that and its development regulations provide that Ingress and egress primarily from secondary streets is preferred you reversed I'm just telling you what the county policy is right right so so so in this instance to the extent that there's only egress on River Road I'm going to guess that the county Engineers office would not encourage that to be reversed but certainly we have an application into the County planning board we'll we could certainly raise the issue with them but I'm anticipating you know knowing based on some experience that uh that's not the county development policy I just want I just want to clarify Al So you you're proposing that you're theorizing as to accessing the site um with an inin from from River Road at the Westerly most entrance I'm just asking if if it's been considered he's looking at this yeah I just want to make sure I clar and then you were proposed to close off the two uh double wide exit on the River Road all together right yeah so my initial reaction was wow that's interesting but what I remember about this site is that when you pull in there you're actually going through the building yeah it's a roofed area and it's actually really narrow um and then you have to navigate what is a really narrow driveway to get all the way around the back I think throwing all the cars in that direction would create different problems I do think it would provide a whole different set of opportunities with how you laid out the parking lot but I think it becomes really complicated as as you go next level in alternative circulation and keeping the two curb Cuts but certainly any consideration of narrowing the double wide curb cut there um well so if it were if it were circulating the other Direction so two things I I agree with what you said um my concern about passing through the building and narrow Drive same concerns but also again you didn't hear from the architect about repurposing that that teller window so now you have the cars going through where people are going to be walking in and out of the office so that that's a conflict that would make me uncomfortable um doing what we can to narrow down the double driveway there there might be something that we can do there to narrow it down if if we maintain the exit drive from the parking lot and we maintain the Ada space where it is but tighten up that double wi that's something we might be able to make a real difference with yeah I'm just asking if if if these ideas had been considered or not in in the planning yes they they were and the objective was to to keep as little usage of that driveway as possible hence the employee obviously a bank with two drive-thru Windows having you know one and a half or or I mean two or two and a half curb Cuts along River Road makes sense to get all of that traffic out of there for an alternate use it's much less intense I don't know that there's not some trade-off we could get for people that are you know traveling along there to you a little more predictability by not having that curb cut being so wide at very least I don't see the benefit to that though if you have the if you have the the Ada space there considering that there might be a car in it where you going to where you going to make it now from the in front of the Ada space or you could angle if you ran a line parallel to the uh handicap space and you you could you could you could reduce the distance of the curve cut overall I I think that it is it is far easier to discuss in this room right now than it is to address this issue um at M County um we have an application that was um before M County on the on the road with regard to the snowco site they went back and forth with the county overall we had all sorts of great ideas County's view of stuff can be very different can be yeah anyway but but so primarily I was just asking considerations so go ahead let me say this as well Mr shat chairman board members that I think to the extent that we're not able to conclude by 10:30 this evening which I which I think seems very likely at this point um we should have comments from the county um you know by by then so uh we can get some clear indication from the county again they as we all know they have the exclusive jurisdiction over that so we're going to have to abide by what they say but I have no issue asking Mr Fitcher to review that with his peers in the County engineering and County Planning departments great one more thing to consider with regard to bringing all the traffic in through the Western most driveway is that there's a residences to the rear so um there there's buffers that you'll hear about I'm sure um bringing every vehicle that enters the site along that property line um might be more of a nuisance to the neighbors and I'm sure that was probably one of the considerations to wiv and you know net net our thought was that the proposed uses and again you'll hear those specific demands shortly hopefully shortly um you know would be a reduction to the neighbors that are most or that have been most directly affected for the last 50 years of Bank operations without involving anybody else right or or impacting anybody else not insignificantly tying in planning considerations into engineering design when we put this together we have a site that's been functioning for 50 or so years and somebody said if it ain't broke they fix it that was kind of the philosophy when we put it together so we followed what was I'm going to Pivot real quick to the issue of drainage and I don't mean to open the entire box event but I want to ask you whether or not you've evaluated um the grade on site today um the the resolution as I read it um uh commented that as this site was going to be developed everything was going to drain to River Road um has there been any confirmation that that's in fact where everything drains and that we're not pitching back well we're we're not changing anything and there is a curb on the backside of the site which would prevent the water from going that way so the intention was to leave it especially given the uh problems that we've been having with Colonial Court area which is directly behind you they were having those problems in 1968 I just read ever said every time back upth street that Colonial Court that you know the whole neighborhood is a bow in Colonial Court that's that's a pickle yep all right shall I keep going okay all right refu um we're proposing a a new refu area in a more discrete location it's close to where the bank had it uh we have a small concrete pad in the rear of the building it's it's less visible than where it is today which is closer to the Eastern drive-thru refu is going to be stored in cans uh this the the uh the wellness tenants if you will um they're not big garbage producers there's not going to be a lot so we have room for cans back there um we had discussion about whether this will be public or private pickup and we didn't come to conclusion on that but I assure you someone will come pick it up and there will not be refu backing up on this property so refu will be handled terms of lighting this was a big discussion as we looked looked at the property and how to bring it up to speed for the proposed uses there are no lights on the site today so we're proposing three and our objective with these three lights was to make the parking lot safer we have one pole light by the driveway of Smith Street which is a standard design convention light up the intersections that's where vehicular conflicts occur so we did that we have a second pole light at the midpoint of the parking lot which covers most of the parking lot and then we have a building mounted light near the driveway to River Road it's it the light faces um East if you will faces towards Smith Street and that lights up the driveway at River Ro can you I I can't see it on the plan yeah please do and can you please explain what kind of fixtures you'll be introducing and which direction the light would be headed so they the the lights are LEDs they're at varying Heights I think between 14 and 18 they with your ordinance um they shoot down you find detail for that in the site PL there is a light so dark sky variety where it's so one light is at the uh the driveway you can look here sir all right light so we have a light pole at the driveway from Smith Street we have a pole about in the middle of the parking lot here and then we have a light mounted on the uh I guess I'll call it the Eastern drive through if you well the light faces this direction kind of towards River Road Street angular and the intention is to light up that dway so what we've done and it's shown on our lighting plan is we lit the driveway here we lit the driveway here we lit the parking lot in the middle and that's it backyards of those houses we're not going to we can't get give other testimony we'll have an opportunity to ask Mr Fisk question when that point so there are utility po public utility poles one is directly out from the front of the building on River and one is about the midpoint of the parking lot on River Road they both have coverheads if I'm not mistaken the um northern eastern utility pole by the parking lot that coverhead actually comes back toward the property and then the coverhead in front of the building goes out the street the one that's by closer to Smith Street it just add light which is nice the one that's by the building actually lights up in front of the building so that's the pedestrians getting on your on lighting the Landscaping lighting detail c608 I see the lighting po there on the back St fix [Music] yes so that so you have the it's the same light it's it's the mounting that's the difference I see yeah so and then on the lighting plan so it's the D series size one right no matter what you're do that's right the um steeve 600 is the lighting plan you don't need to look at it but I I'll walk through it what we show is this is the photometric plan right so we show the intensity of lighting you have a requirement that um we cannot create more than a half a book candle of spillage on the neighboring property the lights that are on I'm sorry the lines that are on our plan we we depict the half book handle limit and it goes right up to but not over our Southern property line and that says shown on sheet c600 c600 so the bottom bottom graphic right that's correct yeah the bottom just tell me when I'm looking at oh I see okay I'm gonna show you on the on the here sheets so you guys have this sheet what you're going to notice is these cir here not follow this um line is labeled if you look right there it says 0.5 FC that's half a foot C that that is um that is your ordinance limit so that shows us inside the parking lot is brighter than a half a book handle once you cross that line it's dimmer than a half a book handle so that line follows our parking lot the edge of our parking lot goes out into Smith Street so it goes right up that propit own is not go over so it's in conformance with your ordinance first question why are there no lights there now that's a great question right second question do you need to put in lights that's a loaded question I advocated for it I didn't mean it that third question could lights be on a timer oh yeah no the lights they're not gonna be on all no I didn't have that question yeah so so you're proposing lights because you think that it would create a safer condition given this used right you're not just putting it on the plan because you're required to put it on the plan and upgrade it you actually want the dev well I you do require it I understand but I also advocated for it okay so and how did you determine where you were going to place the poles because my immediate reaction to placing the poles to the river road side and coming back is that regardless of what the plan show the spillage in the direction of the houses is more likely than if you were to put the poles on the inside and blow them towards River Road well we we have all right so first of all how did I determine where to put them we always start with the driveways light the driveways okay that left a gap in the parking lot so we placed a hole in the middle to make up for the Gap so that's how we pick the location if we put them on the Southside adjacent to the neighbors you'll get spillage onto the neighboring properties you also I don't think have room to put the poles there tight to the so I wanted to get these poles further away and have the light angled down there shields in these lights to you know that's why we have this photometric plan to show that half foot Li so they're 360 degrees I'm sure they have them in a directional fashion as well right so if you would if you were able to find room on the other side would it not be possible to then direct them with a confirm no spillage backwards the I'm not aware of any lights that have literally zero cut off at the pole it will go backwards a little bit and with the tight space we have there I imagine we'll have more than a foot candle more than a half foot candle going on to the neighboring properties okay I think we should spend time understanding it and I'm sure we can hear from everyone with regard to it but the the sensitivity to this issue for me in particular is that we're in a residential Zone yeah and so the other commercial that we that we've dealt with at the planning board level my experience that the lighting is very very significant so I just I just want to flag it as significant but we can certainly move to something else for now yeah so this is this is only three lights one of them is pointing closer to to River Road uh the one if if the the one light that's in the middle of the parking lot if that was the only light there you would hardly get any light at the property line so you know it's it's really just the safety thing we need just want we need three lights given the fact that there are no lights there now on is it because the business operates after dusk well let me ask you this would you guys prefer this business operate with no lights well I I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to conclude anything yet but the truth is that it's dark at five o'clock this time yeah I don't know that it's necessarily nighttime use it's just late afternoon use in the right weather and at the right season you know I'm just thinking because you do two and not three that's if you do two it it would be better than nothing and you know I I'd be okay with that you'll have a Dark Spot somewhere not completely dark but you know darker than you would normally provide you said there's two street lights right out front on river right yes and what kind of light is that is is their footprint of their light shown on your plant they are not modeled and if it was would it does it light up the water at all where would it yes I think it does it does not adequately but yes go home that way and take a look um yeah okay fair enough yeah Mr F on the west side do you know if there going be any recess Lights Under the drive-thru because you alluded to that there might be uh employees walking in door there good point I do not there is no sight lights there if there's architectural you know like residen something small underneath probably yes there's a door there you're going to hear so I'm sure there'll be a light by the door yeah also since it's covered and it's a pass through it's probably a security thing as well you want a little bit of light right so okay um all right so I got through Refuge keep going okay yeah got through lighting all right Landscaping so um this is another one Landscaping wasn't originally considered when we started looking at this property but after going through some design iterations um thein decided that they would like to aesthetically enhance the property with new lights um to start there is a large do landscap yeah okay so to start on the western end of the uh River Road Frontage there's an existing evergreen tree there uh it's not in the best shape um it doesn't look that great it's also rather large close to the building close to the neighbor's house um so what we're looking to do is replace that tree take it out and replace it with a more appropriate species there which in this case we're showing the great mytle and would you show the site triangle to make sure that that complies with yes n standards yeah yeah that's Li on the plan that's the LI correct Drive got all right okay so all right the next thing is your ordinance uh requires Street streams to be space between 30 and 50 feet along the frontage uh on this plan we actually conform with that except for uh the driveways obviously and in front of the building and and the concept there is and I always advocate for this that visibility of the business from the street I feel is very important so we don't want to block this the uh building there's not a lot of space to begin with um you know probably by Dimension it would be one tree I don't know but yeah in front of the building we didn't want to put a tree but otherwise on the west western side and the Eastern side of the building we comply and then we provided Landscaping in front of parking everywhere we could which is a requirement in your ordinance uh the only two parking spaces that we couldn't do that for are the Ada space and the employee parking space because both of those spaces are driveways so so we couldn't put anything in front of those um we are adjacent to Residential Properties to our South and our West uh the existing curve in the parking lot's close to the property line we have that existing six foot fence that is there and that uh helps provide that visual separation our neighbors to the South all have pretty considerable vegetation and there's a there's also an accessory structure I think a batch garage up there um and that's all along our common property line so that helps enhance the buffer between the uses in that area uh the Western half of the property allows for some Landscaping uh there is substantial existing vegetation by the southeast corner of the property and we're proposing that that should remain and then we're proposing some additional screaming along the western property line right adjacent to that former uh teller window so that's all going to provide functional and visual separation between the afcan property and our residential neighbor not to mention the neighborhood is custom to a commercial use on this property again because it started operating in the bank somewhere between 1970 in 1971 now signs uh we're propos there is an existing sign out front we're proposing to uh replace it almost in kind uh with a sign that follows your B1 standards and obpl so for reference your B1 Zone permits fre standing sign up to 25 Square ft the existing sign is 21.4 square ft it's 8 ft wide and it's about 32 inches tall the propose sign we're just proposing to make it a little bit taller actually lower because we're going to hold that top elevation but um it'll be about 37 and a half inches high so that gives us the 25 square feet and enables us to put the two tenants on that sign so the bottom of the sign would be reduced by 5 1 12 in correct enlarged if you will correct can you can you identify the location of the sign on on the the existing sign it's actually should be shown on the plan but it's right in front of the center of the building and what's going to be the height from ground level to the bottom of the sign once the sign you'd like to install is is is back install so um your ordinance requirement to the top is 12 feet so that's what we have there 12 that's what exist that's the limit 12 feet yeah I'm going to work backwards so your your limit is 12 feet so what we would like to do obviously is you know since we're making the sign a little thicker go up but we can't because the ordinance says 12 feet so we're going to go down so 37 12 feet minus 37 and a half inches give you your bottom clearance just to clarify real quick um again we're in a residential so this is specific to if it wasn't a a business I'm gonna give you more detail on that yes so so there's a variance right off the bat for having the sign as it exceeds 4 feet in height and it's two two square feet yeah that's the variance and then their design is not only about existing addition but show that it would comply it wasn't a business exactly right I want to make sure we get to the to the point of my questions so it sounds to me as if you're going to have at least 8 ft clear underneath the sign that you propos from the ground to the bottom of the sign yes my issue with sight lines to the grow yes um and so this was a huge issue at acne with regard to having that sign in a location where the cars pulling onto River Road could see who is on the sidewalk pedestrians and bicycles and so it seems to me that at that height that you're clear all those Sidelines are clear you're right um the issue as you pointed out Mr Rizo is the conflict of the entire application in that it's here today if we evaluate it based on the the fact that everything's a variance it looks it looks one way and I think that the assessment of the Delta between what's there and what's proposed it just creates a different view of that um just at a macro level difference between what's there you're going to come down another five and a half inches Hold the top line so we have a chairman Bo MERS we have a sample of what the sign would look like um so we could we mark this Kat has a A14 now is it backlit is it neon is spotl which is the requirement your what is it externally lit externally lit so you're you're shining lights do it from both directions yeah that hasn't been determined where those lights are mounted but that's exactly right it will be externally are those the existing lights I think that there's like there today are they on the ground yeah yeah I don't know if they'll stay get replaced I don't know how that's going to work with this sign you don't allow internally L I guess not no well there's a typo on on 700 so the one you're holding in your right hand that's our sign a a144 uh what about the proposal for a second tener upstairs no signage that's that's bottom of the sign chairman that's a separate tenant yes that's the so the Duffy um branding there on the sign the bulk of it that's the downstairs tenant and then the other one stay well I think it says that's upstairs so the the black ink is the birth FL tenant and the gold ink is the second just keep on your black first floor Golding second floor the sign is going to be in the same location that it is today we're going to hold that same front yard setback we're gonna like I said we're going to hold that same pipe to the top each tenant will have space we talked about that it's going to be externally lit um and we do have to request variances for the sign area and height because again we're in residential Zone but functionally I'll talk more about this in planning testimony functionally we're really a part of the B Zone uh we're also requesting varant relief to place a sign on the main entry door which faces North it does not Face River Road um the reason for that sign that's actually shown on the plans too that's on c700 uh it says window sign door all it is is a sign mounted on the door it really acts as a wayfinding sign to draw people when they're in the parking lot to go through the proper door will you show the location on the yeah we can add that to the no problem and and you said it faces North not toward River it would face North right so the door the entry door is right there that's Facing East it's not North is River Northeast if you want to split a so I hav got many this fli oh is it facing River Road or is facing Smith Street it's facing Smith Street okay yeah better way to categorize face it kiss principal there we go um and that's it for site orientation engineering all that kind of stuff okay uh it's 10:00 and one of the things that bothers me about carrying applications is that we've got people that are engaged that are here tonight um that may well want to speak to or ask questions with regard to the testimony with this heard uh and as much as I recognize it break it for a little bit um I'm going to Audible and I would like to open to the public um to see whether or not we have any questions about the issu that we talked about just now um I don't want to get into the stuff you have put on yet I only want to ask if anyone has any specific questions about the issues that we touched on over the last half hour I I I I recognize your hand hold on one second so I'm going to ask everybody to step forward we're going to ask for your name for the record you've already been sworn in the questions have to relate to the testimony that Mr Fisker has just put on uh recognizing that we're not going to finish tonight so there's going to be other testimony and other opportunities to comment um but that's how I want to try and channel this discussion I like Sor Arthur arth it's spelled a r f o r d I live at 14 colog that's 33 12 one second can we hear them on microphones is he good where he is I've never had anybody tell me they can't hear me step up a couple Fe to the table mind thank you just to be sure thanks okay which block is it Mr second house in on Colonial correct right behind the B yes got us okay well a couple things I'd like toare out uh you say I was wondering how many employees you're going to have on the first floor and how many employees are going to have on second we haven't gotten there yet on the test oh I'm sorry so we only can talk about some things we discuss you're gonna hold it until next time okay uh just to that I don't always get the mail as fast as I might when's the next time going to be well we haven't talked about that yet but we have a reorganization meeting in January so this is likely going to get carried to February okay thank you thank you anyone else please step forward Emily Steiner St i n e r I cannot tell you what lot I am but I can say that I am directly behind that B that take a look at the picture there 20 Colonial Court third house fourth house on the right oh you're across the street no I'm on4 here's my house right here oh I'll here so you guys know thanks lot 14 she is 14 14 got it okay so with the in regards to the fence is that going to be replaced because it is like dilapitated we haven't we haven't heard anything about that yet okay but but I'll tell you this in the 68 resolution there's a requirement that the fence be constructed and maintained and I'm sure that the applicants aware of that but we may have to wait till next time to find it for sure okay but certainly it's on it's on the it's on the radar yeah that's all CU I a you know the whole thing about the lights you know it's hard to say um how much light is going to be coming into somebody's home but like I have a ranch style home and I have three glass sliding doors that go along the back of my house and when the bank was lit up when I first moved here in 2019 the light on the drivethru was so bright going into my back window that like I was just like losing it and had to put like so much stuff up can you help Mr Fisker see on his plan about where on that building that light was so you're weird where was still my room is right here and it was shining directly into my so the Western drive-thru is the one that had the light northwest corner of her house yeah we can make sure that that wasn't happen anything else no there's so much more but we didn't touch on it than you I'm sorry anyone else I got one in the back come on call please and your name ISU blaz 523 River Road um basically they have lights that eliminate the slide pole and the question I have is you said they were the lights were going to put on timers what are the hours of operation of the business because these lights on on flag pole were on all the time so we didn't we didn't get to that um Mr Akens asked the question about timers um alleviating concerns right um I think that hearing a second comment with regard to Li that we talked about I think maybe what we need to do is get an assessment of where existing lights are making sure that we know which ones we want to keep and then we can speak to it a little bit more specifically Reon I ask is because the spotlights flly pole is here and the spotlights are like this but they do not have a cover on them in other words it will shine across River Road it will actually light up my living room could you show us miss Blazer where where you are on on this exhibit to your right [Music] okay give us a lot number Jason Lot 27 Lot 27 block 25 okay and the light on the Fly pole here it just comes right across because it has no sh that's a that's a flag law thing but we can get better flags up all the if flags up 24 hours a day then what's supposed to be on as long as it's dark regardless of what your business hours are that's up to them whether they want to keep their flag up as far as the signs go the only the only wording on the sign PNC Bank with all these words on that sign it's going to look so much more commercial thank you there is Mr aens there is um requirements with regard to f sizings and things like that that's all been baked into your proposal in terms of what's there I I don't know this uh this was just produced today okay so I I haven't this is the first time I've seen it I haven't seen it before today so we're just giving gross Dimensions at this point okay all right uh anyone else please my name's Melissa m e l i SSA oi o o FSK k y um with regards to the driveway sorry oh 22 important can you uh one of these here so Block 33 lot 15 lot 15 got it in regards to the driveway I'm sure you're familiar with John Lorie salon so a lot of the employees and the patrons that go there also Park on Smith so Smith keeps extremely congested and also very dangerous for the neighborhood kids who walk across to go to acne and dunk in donuts and all the active parking lot businesses there so that also should be taken into consideration takeway being that there's not a lot of availability on Smith Street and there should be some sensitivity given to whether or not this property is going to be able to house the cars that it's going through a track yeah and that that was a heavy discussion between me and the applicant during the design thank you of the site and as I mentioned when I was talking about parking we feel that the parking we show in this plan will support their uses and and also I'll highlight this if you go strictly by your orink where respace is short it's pretty close if you go by the reality of the situation there's a chunk of the upstairs that cannot be occupied and if you use that math we can fly with the par that was the 450 square feet 450 is square feet correct but if we go back ordinance it's residential right it's not for parking parking you're right it's owned residential commercial but parking is par it goes by square foot of the commercial what is the square footage of the as renovated Second Story I'm gonna let the I know the total square footage because that's how I calculated parking but he can break it down for you what's the anticipated user of the Second Story who is this they're on the sign you're you're going to hear more about what they do okay look it's just the difficulty in trying to trying to space it out yeah what you're going to hear when you hear more about that use very I these yeah chairman board members just so it's not any great mystery here it's um it's Wellness coaching which would include bar sessions uh I I believe that's a combination of uh Pilates and U dancing I think it was originated in the United Kingdom in the late 1950s get history lessons um can't say I'm a student of it but um a breathing Ricky Ricky energy health and nutrition so that's the type of kind of Wellness that we're talking about it's again it's going to be you you'll hear testimony is the Second Story going to be separately partitioned from the first it will be is there a separate entrance it will have again I I apologize we just haven't you now haven't had the moment to get to Mr Anderson testimony I promise his plans will reflect all of that so oneon-one it it it it will be more likely oneon-one but there may be some small classes as well again all that testimony will come out but the user of the second floor is intended to use the second floor the open space on the first is not going to be accessible or used by corre two separate spaces so so I mean theoretically if I wanted to have my Northern office in the upstairs because again we haven't signed up this proposed tenant then I could have my office in the upstairs and it would have nothing to do with Mr Duffy's fitness personal fitness studio could be a number of different could be a number of professional uses that are otherwise would otherwise be analogous to permitted uses in the business Zone got it right okay um I know we're at that we're at that hour we're at that hour we need to decide how to use the the next 10 minutes wisely I can't start and finish Mr Anderson all yeah no I'm sorry does anybody else have any comment with regard to Mr Fisker testimony okay I'm going to suggest that we move over to CCH and see whether or not there's well go ahead I shouldn't I didn't get into planning yet I was okay so fair enough that that wouldn't we don't want to leave whether whether she's complimentary or a rebuttal we haven't presented that of course that part of the case yet yeah and again I I'm sorry that it's that it's going to be segmented but again because this is a use variance and because the proofs are so extensive we want to make sure we make as thorough record for you and for the applicant and for frankly the members of the neighborhood who are here one way or the other so they can hear everything that is to be said yes and I just want to clarify that since CCH wasn't able to generate a written report I thought that a summary overview but you're absolutely right it's out of sequence and not prop as opposed to a summary overview can we get if there are any points from C's point of view that are not covered in the materials that were presented with regard to what Mr Fisker just testified to no well sort of like our Engineers letter says I'd really like to see these things testified too you know what here's what we're gonna do because CCH is just about to get an extra couple of mons so it doesn't matter I don't think we need to try and squeeze it in I think we're going to have an opportunity more time to actually take a look at it I just I just mean for the applicant to be able to use their time between now and whenever they're carried to to address if there's anything I I agree with that IDE love for them to know what the issues are so they take but I I don't see how we can do it in a way that's gonna work yeah yeah our planner can always have access to the applicants okay planner and to share any additional concerns so that you're let make meaningful in feary without come back right and I would say chairman chetti to your to your comment so it's not unusual right for um a just like we received two reports from from CME that we would receive the report and just like we responded to that report we would respond to the planner report so so there there would appear to be in fairness to the comment which I think is appropriate more than time to respond to the the planers comments yeah um okay so so you're good with where you are right I'm with where we are right now okay Mr when when you come back do you have some clarity from the county in terms of the parment situation yeah so my expectation doctor would be that I don't know if we'll be on the County's agenda for this coming Monday but certainly at the beginning of January believe the January 8th meeting not not later then so if we're coming back in February I think it would be adequate time to get feedback from the county so thank you okay so with regards to Carrie and um there's sort of a loose tradition of not scheduling stuff um the reality is that there's not stuff to do then um Sheil what does what does our known agenda look like right now in terms of January February month are they all open for uh completed application that are either scheduled or waiting to be scheduled that what we were going to discuss this evening there's three applications that have come that are ready to be SCH M ra you good with February I'm good with February but of course if there were an opportunity in January we welcome it when is the reor date chairman Bo terrible I'm going to suggest we go to February and I'm going to suggest keep February clear except for you I understand and I think we're going to take the top to bottom tonight we're going to get through this and I just don't know otherwise what's going to happen in January and the last thing I want to do is stretch it out longer than we need to um so I think it'd be better to just realistically set you into February um at this point the the anticipated February date is what sh first first Thursday yeah I'm feeling it did that so do I have confirmation yeah okay February first chairman so so here's here's what we got to do we we've got to use that date that date doesn't become official until we reorg January there's no reason for that to change and I don't anticipate it for some reason it does then we're going to have to Reen notice we're problem we'll fix it uh I don't anticipate that um because we're first Thursday except for conflicts and the conflict we've already worked through in terms of projecting what our dates are going to be so it's 99% um and so I'll make a motion to carry the uh what are we calling this W any time requirements wave the time requirements Prov Miss olon with the necessary letter confir proposal is carry to February 1st uh what's that without without the no [Music] for no no no further notices will be sent the meeting that we're talking about is February 1st 2024 if that meeting is not on that night there will be notices sent because we will have the change thank you chairman thank you board members we didn't vote on it yet but I feel good about it um I made the motion I'm waiting for a second tooll call Mr yes Mrs D'Angelo yes Mr briway yes Mr Forte yes drer yes yeser yes thank you happy holidays thank you everybody thank you okay we do have all right so we're going to move on to our administrative items what do we have with regards to that minutes from the last meeting I was not attending that um somebody willing to make a motion to accept anybody have any comments that anybody review the minutes y motion approve I think I need yes yep yes later yes that is the only piece administrative I have except for comments well I want to discuss I wanted to discuss PS um because what's happened is over the last several months particularly with these D's um and with the introduction of Sheila into the process um there has been too much stress about who's going to be here and and whether we've got the correct people in fact this application was here in October and we did not have people no not this application the Ryan application was here they were here with all their professionals and we were unable to proceed um this costs a minute to these application to these applicants um historically the zoning board has had near perfect dependance uh historically board members that have had repeated problems making it to to to meetings um have have have withdrawn from the board when it's problem no no one has that kind of problem but number one we need improved Communications when people can't be I need people to identify a conflict in advance it needs to be in writing it needs to go to Sheila Peter and I can be copied or whoever chairman and vice chair are next year so that there's there there's a clear understanding when there's a there are situations where things come up at the last minute and in order for everybody to be able to have those family emergencies we need to be able to establish consistency with people being here all the time we have two extra members which seems like a lot but you get a recusal you get two recusals and then somebody's absent and you get a d and everything gets messed up um just take the comment for what it's worth um I want to do better in 2024 because we owe them the best we can do which by the way was exactly what we gave everyone tonight so please don't misunderstand me um that cover it yeah people read your emails please um emails have gone out and gone unanswered I'm a stickler for emails I live on it but uh please read your emails and respond any time in question I don't use the Fair Haven Zoning Board address and so I just use my work address and it it exposes me to Discovery requests and things like that but it's a practical matter my work address I see every few hours if not instantaneously if if that's what you need to do then do both emails addresses um and just stay in touch yeah those who weren't weren't here when we when we did the zoning board addresses the reason was so in case a legitimate or a legal issue came up that they asked to see your emails you wouldn't have to expose your personal emails if you don't want to use it don't use it but please look at the one that you're going to that you're going to use and respond to it that's it when we set the when we set the meeting scheduled in January it's in stone and to me it goes on my calendar and I schedule around it I can't do stuff with kids that night I can't take a meeting that night that's the commitment to the board um and if there's other things that interfere identify it in advance let's do the best we can but if there's if there's multiple absences um you know you should be asking yourself whether or not there there's enough time to to do this yep yep uh I still see some uh some stragglers out there so are there any comments or questions from the public we'll open to you [Music] groupies um great job this year just wanted to say you guys did a phenomenal some phenomenal work so thank you thank you thank you thanks TR okay anything further thanks a lot everybody uh uh motion close all in favor my best keeping