excuse me we're gonna start this is a regular meeting of the zoning Board of adjustment adequate notice this meeting has been given pursuant to the provisions of the open public meetings act at the time of the board's reorganization in January this year the board adopted its regular meeting scheduled for the year notice the schedule was sent to and published in the Asbury Park Press on January 26 2024 and the two River on February 1st 2024 that notice was also posted on the bulletin board in burough Hall and has remain continuously posted there as required by the statute copy of the notice has been and is available to the public and is on file with the office of the B copy of the notice has also been sent to such members of the public as have requested such information in accordance with the statute adequate notice having been given the board secretary is directed to include the statement in the minutes of the meeting for proceeding with a formal meeting tonight I'd like to say a few words the against their experts in the audience about the role and Authority about the fairen Zoning Board of adjustment this board is uh the board is a separate and independent Municipal legal entity and its limited Authority is specifically set forth in Bur ordinances and the New Jersey municipal anus law this CLA ey judicial in nature and the members of the board are unpaid volunteers appointed by the mayor and councel the zoning board does not enact the bur land use laws and regulations the bur Council does that the zoning board does not enforce the land use laws of the bur of Fair Haven this is the responsibility of the burough code enforcement officer this board deals with appeals for relief from the requirements of the bur's land use laws or denials by the zoning officer an applicant is never entitled to a variance also known as an exception to the zoning regulations but must meet specific criteria required by the New Jersey municipal land use law and the Fair Haven ordinances by satisfying certain required standards of proof board has no authority to wave these requirements the burden of proof is always on the applicant to show that here or she is entitled to the specific leave requested the applicant must prove that a deviation from the regulations will advance the purposes of the ordinance and that the deviation would substantially outweigh any detriment of the Zone plan variances relate to the future use of the land and are not intended or authorized to remedy temporary or unique personal situations roll call please here here here here please R me to the flag United States Amer the I can't remember a more packed house so to the extent that the agenda has not been circulated we have an application for the diant matter which we're going to hear first we're going to move to sticks and rout second and if we can get to it we have the Goodwin matter which we have third before we start with the diacont matter we're going to start with the Poo matter I understand we have a special guest see that was being Mr Irene how are you for the record Mike IR special Bo council with regard to the pay person matter thank you so much what do we got we've got the resolution that I drafted and circulated to the board for review post whispering wood hearing on the pale matter so it's just a matter of the board reviewing it let me know if you have any questions or problems and if not we take a motion to adopt it I'll be out of your what Mr your category I was not present so oh I also was not present both mrzi and I recuse ourselves so I I've reviewed the minutes and uh I approve the minutes as written uh there's a motion by me and second seconded by Mr Forte to accept the application as submitted moving the pool to the new location as indicated on exhibit A2 I don't think we need to go back and and review those exhibits I think that if everyone has read through this and approves the uh and is in approval of the uh of the minutes I think we can vote on the minutes and we should be fine and and may I ask for a formal Mo motion also to move the resolution that Mr Irene mentioned that proves and is infected in the minutes uh is the memorialization of the actually the board Tak I have a motion to move that resolution yes motion second second who was the second second did you get both of those okay Mr yes yes yes yes no Mr so he's not participating okay we're good resolutions approved thank you so much have a good night no we got move [Music] yeah okay the rec Mr Forte is recusing himself from Dion application Dion application do we have Juris on this matter no okay bring whoever's testify think they going to testify might testify come on now same instructions when you were last year before you start testifying state your name spell your name spell your last name for the record so that we tie speaking on the record uh Mr sardo this application is continuation of something that we heard I believe in January correct correct okay so um when we put this matter onto the agenda it was my understanding that we were coming forward to review perhaps additional discussion on plans or what have you and I I I know that your client came in without Council and didn't have a plan at the first time uh you've seen the room we have a uh site plan application which is um next on the agenda we have time but what I'm understanding us to be doing is continuing from where we started in January we should pull the board and make sure that we have all the voting members here and that we've got a clear continuation but I just want to identify that I I did not allocate two hours to this matter if you think you're going to need that kind of time then we can adjust the agenda and move things around and we could put you behind but we've got a lot of people here to see something different so I just I don't usually do that but it was my understanding that we had a a a a window of things that we need to SP through so I don't know what you think I think that's accurate in the direct presentation certainly will not take that long although can't gauge how long the discussion might that might ensue will be but I don't think we'll take two hours okay [Music] thanks as as it's already been stated on the record this is a continuation of the January hearing my understanding is that you made a couple of additional submissions and as of right now with regard to documents I have marked uh A9 as the letter from Mr Bruno dated March 28th uh 2024 Rising there now Council we also marked A10 the Revis plan that was made uh from uh with design and development dated March 16th um we are so if there are any additional exhibits we're up to A1 with regard to the zoning board exhibits we have an additional um writing Mr Rizo from CME dated April April 3rd 2024 updating his materials so there's additional exhibit from the board it's going to be ZB five I think we had one objector objector one that was the Lewis the vedetta uh objection imp pack materials um I have reviewed the record I just want to make sure I'm acting on this that back in January we had a full compliment everybody that here has heard the first portion of this okay it's very good so I think it is just one question for you the the objector ob1 is that a new submission or something that was no that was something that was presented last time that was uh I can show you I have it pack if you'd like was photographed from a I believe that folks are here this evening there photographs of the house to the rear uh showing I believe as the based upon the sun's decanation and the new roof line how it was going to impact light air into their oh that's okay and again I I understand you had an opportunity to review the record I think their comments effec Mr Char if you could give me a please and just set the stage with regard to the variances that are triggered by the application and if you could give the board just a high level understanding of what's changed from when we were here last month we regard to the proposed Point sure um the property is in the R5 Zone the residents um is exceeds the maximum square footage that's permitted in the zone what's proposed is 3370 square feet whereas in the zone 2200 is the max allowed um it's relevant to this conversation also the r75 Zone which we'll get into more that maximum in that zone is 3,20 square ft um additionally um there is sidey really what I'll call the minimum side yard setbacks that are existing that are slightly exacerbated so there's a sidey setback of .1 foot variance that's exacerbated by this application due to the height in that that one foot1 foot set1 foot off of the requirement not off the prop correct thank you yes correct that's why I refer to this uh and the same thing with the rear yard is three off the requirement um again it's an exacerbation of of the existance conditional footprint um so that is the Rel that the three variances square footage side yard re H correct and what's changed is the applicant uh there's been some plan changes but as far as variance relief goes previously they were over on impervious coverage theyve reduced that to comply with the R5 standards if we were to apply the r75 standards though uh it's R5 is at 50% coverage R 7.5 is 45% coverage so we need to discuss that at a potential uh whether there's a Lea or we're going to bring that into compliance before applying r75 thank um good to go yeah this is I believe Al was previously sworn Mr Shaz been accepted as expert noten by so it's alaiz again last name spelled sh sh SS I as um given Mr leaders comments I'll probably keep this fairly brief and just quick high level overview the goal of the project right now is the second floor has a master suite uh a legitimate kids bedroom and a bathroom and there's a room that for whatever reason you built over time treating it to this owner above the existing two attach garage low ceilings uh doesn't appear to be insulated or not adequately so the goal is with the owners having two kids and one on the way uh to have three reasonable kids beds and end up with a four bed free bath second floor uh some of the square foot issue comes from the fact that it's it's kind of an imbalanced floor plan meaning that the first floor has a lot of extra square footage and that doesn't necessarily help go bedrooms and things like that uh as far as changes most of it was just metrics previously uh I had been measuring the existing second floor to Le walls above the bonus room uh above the garage that would be demoed anyway and that basically was I was understating the existing square footage before I had the second floor at 11:43 uh when it's measured to not the knee walls but to where the rafters are 30 in above the floor as per Fair Haven zoning definition the actual second floor existing goes to 1294 so it's about 153 ft extra the total square footage existing goes from 3031 previously presented to 3182 the proposed Square footages all stay the same um so the proposed increase in square footage actually decreased from 339 to 188 um there was an issue with the ridge line relatively minor on the front and rear elevations was shown as equal with the existing rdge which was a leftover from an original design option that was brought down to coordinate with the actual proposed Bridge so it brought down about 18 in and then there was an issue with the uh existing left side elevation there was a Windows missing so those got updated the uh significant design change was made based on discussion about the lot coverage as Mr sardo indicated that we were above lot the existing lot coverage was over at 56.7 50% permitted so we're proposing to remove a significant portion of the walkways uh we're leaving a little bit where we need for functional use and there's also a portion of the driveway up front it's like a brick extension that the homeowners can uh live without so we're proposing to remove those to bring it down to 50% um that pretty much covers the the ter of square foot that's 5,00 29 uh yes 529 it's 5704 existing we're proposed to bring it down Mr are you reconstructing the the roof in the area above the garage or are you building entirely within the existing end no there's not enough head room to make use of it so the the idea would be we'd scrape down to the floor joist probably have to reinforce or add new floor was above the garage but we would demo down to the the ceiling of the garage and build back up so currently you have a roof line that meets at the uh at the exterior wall and you're going to be coming up and what will be the new wall on top of that se plate the new height would be um it is I think I had it at about seven at the front just to bring the scale down a little bit uh on the sides it goes all the way to the peak and then there's Gable dormers on the front and the back so I think the new Wall height at the front and the back at the low points where this uh roof dips down about seven feet okay so the walls that you're adding on the second floor are coming up seven feet from where you currently have the roof line meeting the sil plate direct yes and the ridge line is coming up from what to what rid line I I don't have the existing measurement on me where the uh you're talking about from the GR trying I'm trying to to to come to understand exactly what the new box is going to look like on top of the existing structure I want to know the Delta between what's there now and what you're proposing to put there seven foot walls I want to know now how much taller it is so right now from grade it's approximately 19 ft to the Ridge and I would say even though those walls are about 7 ft the existing Raptors probably sit about eight eight or so inches below just the way the conru works so I would say it's like we're shoting up maybe 8T so 8T on the ridge 8T on the Ridge 8 feet to the well so effectively it's an 8 foot uh addition that that's your additional Mass yeah it's like you extrude it up and so you're putting that across the the the two garage Bays as we look at it what are the other modifications to the house is that fortun new are there any other changes to the balance Val in the left uh there was some things we had to go through the historic commission there was some detailing that well we agreed to on front that's far as Windows some things with the uh EES and the returns those are more Minor Details and then in order to help scale down the portion above the garage to make it look as less like a twostory you know construction as possible we're proposing a trellis across the top of the uh garage doors and that just helps scale the space between the new window sill above and the garage doors below black will be yeah we talked about that last time yeah yeah they have better okay thanks any other any other questions for architect none um I'll call Professional planner Andre Jan speak planning good evening sir my name is Andrew Janu 315 Highway 34 CS Neck New Jersey licensed professional planner state of New Jersey I've testified before this board currently serving as the planner for the burough of Freehold and B parter uh been accepted as an expert in land use Planning by the Superior Court in the state of New Jersey and 2022 was uh appointed to the State Board of Professional planners by governor Mr Janu was approved by this board as an expert in plan a few months ago okay with it yes thank you um and just for background that you you weren't here for the last meeting I was not and but in the in the interum you've uh become familiar with the site the application and commissions spoken extensively to the architect regarding the nature of the comments from the first application reviewed the documentation review letters both respect to this I've also reviewed your ordinance your master plan and the correspondence relative to the new submission and would you mind gu share your opinion and your analysis the board certainly uh so what I'd like to do is to circulate an aerial photograph with the property delineated approximately wi that was uh so this is uh downloaded from Google it's a 2024 copyrighted image uh it's it's fairly representative of the existing conditions today um and this was downloaded and prepared earlier um little in terms of a little bit of the unique nature of this slot um this is within the Burrow's R5 Zone the R5 Zone has a minimum lot area of 5,000 square ft uh this lot is oversized for the district containing 10,058 Square fet roughly twice uh what requirement is uh one of the peculiar qualities of this lot is that it is a sort of an l-shape as you can see in the photograph maintains approxim 46 ft of Frontage along with Normandy um and then when you go back about 80 ft on the lot it opens up to almost 86 ft the house is situated behind the essentially stem of the property um meaning that the the facing this house the left side of the house is largely screened from view from the street because of the improvements on the lot in front of that there are trees there there's a home there's a garage um so you from the street you really don't read the footprint of the house the way way it sits um the house is currently I believe 3,000 3,182 square ft and we are proposing 188 foot addition making the house 3, 370 ft the uh addition will be over the existing footprint there'll be no extensions of the home that will be directly up about the garage uh unique feature to to where this is is uh selected is that we do have a minor setback uh deviation along that garage corner um the garage towards the front is set back 7.1 ft from the side like it's compliant to the rear is set back at 6.9 so there's a 0.1 foot deviation in the sidey yard setback the height of the addition will be within the uh massing that's permitted within the R5 District meaning will be under 30 ft um so with respect to the sidey yard the neighbors will have an envelope that's consistent with the expectations within the R5 District similarly the rear yard setback to the addition is 29.1 where 30 is required so less than a foot deviation of what should be there again that's the Minimus I would argue at such a scale it wouldn't be noticeable to to a neighbor and again we are consistent with what the height standards would be within the R5 District so again the neighbors uh both to the rear and to the side are generally getting something that's within expectations for light air and open space within the r five district in terms of where massing would be situated and at what scale the massing would be situated and that's independent of the home overall I'm looking that you know where where we're doing the addition and where we're impacting the neighbors uh the variance we are seeking this evening is for an increase in the Minal habitable floor area uh 2200 square ft is the limit um however when we look at all the other measurements with respect to uh massing on a property we are compliant with the R5 uh requirements for block coverage for building coverage and for f we fall within the uh r five requirements for f when uh we look at this with respect to the r 7.5 uh we are compliant with respect to F the maximum square foot requirement uh maximum habitable square footage would be 3,20 we are at 3,370 uh 45% is permitted in terms of lot coverage we are coming down to 50% which is compliant with the R5 however the r75 has a 45% loot coverage we would have a deviation there uh we're consistent with the building coverage requirements for the r75 district as well as the height requirements and the r75 has the same expectations with expect to rear and side yard setbacks as the R5 so again those are minor deviations um that gives you a little bit of a benchmark in terms of how larger lots are treated because this is something that's uh somewhat out of character for the R5 although the home directly plus is treated similarly sized um and also in with a house that exceeds 3,000 s ft um in going through the requirements for the variance relief we look to your master plan in terms of what your uh what your expectations are in the master plan uh and subsequent examinations all encourage burrow action for the appropriate use of land and to scale uh existing neighborhoods properly with lots and the like it seeks to maintain character of neighborhoods doesn't seek to do anything disrupted and it's particularly concerned with infill construction and new construction tear downs and looking to maintain the character uh the house on this property dates back to uh 1952 pursuing to your tax records uh it did go through your historical Mission there were some comments to Al's plan with respect to the the sing points he just discussed on the elevation so we think in terms of the neighborhood character it would be maintained by this application again the house sits back somewhat screened from the street uh what we're proposing I don't believe will have any negative impact on on the neighborhood character of the streetcape because it is so distant and is not something that's readily uh apparent as you walk down the street uh with respect to public purposes again an an application isn't just for the benefit of the applicant there have to be some public benefits to this U I believe there are three these are reiterated within the municipal land use law uh they're they're done by lettering so the three that I believe would apply to this application are e the promotion and establishment of appropriate population densities and concentrations that will contribute to the well-being of persons neighborhoods communities and regions and the preservation of the environment and this is a single family home it'll continue to be a single family home um Alex plained the uh kind of issues with respect to how the allocation of square footage in this home is it has a large first floor with a lot of space that's but frankly wasted and not readily conducive to bedrooms with for a family living what we're trying to do and the goal of this application is to create a home that is is familyfriendly where young children and parents can be on the same level with respect to bedrooms and bathrooms and and those kind of things and unfortunately we have a footprint that we have to live with in order to do that and what we're proposing is a modest 188 square foot alteration in order to accomplish that uh G provides sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of agricultural residential recreational commercial and Industrial uses in open space both public and private according to their respective environmental requirements to meet the needs of the New Jersey citizens again it's a single family home and a single family neighborhood uh in terms of the overbuilt limitations on the lot while we exceed the square footage requirement uh we are consistent with your f with your lot coverage and with your building coverage I don't believe this is essentially when we look at of the limitations and the capabilities of the lot that we're overbuilding on it we are so muchat scaled to the size of the lot and it is oversized for the area we do have a home that starts out larger than what your footprint with and and massing would allow u in terms of the habitable square footage but again I think with the modest addition here we we accomplish something that'll maintain this home as as a livable uh property without significant tear down risk or any any major alterations and finally m is to encourage the coordination of the various public and private procedures and activ shaping Land Development with a view of lessening the cost of such development into the more efficient use of land I think this speaks to the uh the position here that we're going with an alteration to an existing home as opposed to more disruptive tear down looking at it in terms of reconstruction of the property um it's it's a simple addition over a garage we're working within the existing footprint we're not doing any modifications Foundation we can work with that uh what we're essentially doing is raising the roof h over an existing envelope in order to accommodate two additional bedrooms and bathrooms uh for family living so I think when we look at the purposes of missal Landy slow We are on point with those uh in addition I would offer that we are as a as a measure of this application reducing the coverage up a lot to something that is compliant with the R5 District uh it's currently non-compliant but one of the benefits of this application is bringing that into Conformity with the zoning requirements and that brings us to uh the use VAR I'm sorry the bulk variance relief that's required and as this boort knows there are two types of bulk or C variances there's the C1 which is driven by existing conditions or structures on the lot that's essentially the hardship aspect or the C2 or the balance test where the benefits of the application outweigh any detriment um the C1 criteria is appropriate by which to view the setbacks we have a footprint that has some minor VI violations with respect to rear yard and sidey yard setbacks uh we're not uh essentially expanding those in any direction uh we are going up but again the the add that's going up is compliant with the envelope and the height that's permitted within the district and the deviations in terms of setback are so minor that I don't believe they would impinge on light air in open space with the neighbors the other thing to consider here uh in terms of how those sidey yards uh measure up is this house is slid back about 80 feet along the lot we neighbor immediately to the right U where you would see side yard to side yard on typical lot is actually forward of that so you don't that uh visual of side yard to side yard they're they're somewhat offset because the set back of the of the home on this slot under the site C2 criteria which I believe we would justify all the variants Rel in particular the the extra square footage who have to show that this is a unique situation on a specific lot it is that the purposes of the municipal land use law would be Advanced by this deviation I believe there are at least three that would be Advanced by this and that the benefits of the deviation without any without any D so we look at the benefits of this again we're trying to make it own livable without them to a total Destruction of the property and a nuisance and destruction through the neighborhood um this is a an addition over an existing home it makes it more livable I think it makes the home sustainable for quite a period of time um and the benefits here are obviously that it becomes a family conducive home even though there's additional square footage beyond what would be typically anticipated within your then we go to the negative criteria whereas the variants could be granted without substantial detriment to the public good we look at substantial detriment I don't believe We rise to that level um the home is already oversized for the district and it's within the fabric of the neighborh it's been this way for a long time reading 188 Square ft over the garage it's within the massing envelope that's permitted within your district with respect to height um when I look at negative impacts upon the neighborhood I typically look at it are we creating additional noise are we cre shadowing any drainage issues any Trash uh traffic none this will continue to operate as a single family home it's in a single family neighborhood um so we're not creating any kind of substantial detriment to the to the neighbors and for the public good and then finally that the variant will not substantially impair the intent and purpose of the Zone plan or zoning ordinance Again by alls uh within your districts we we're compliant with lck we're compliant with building coverage we're compliant with f we are over on habitable floor area and part of that is driven by the existing footprint of the house and the fact that the lot is oversized had at some point accommodated this footprint and and the massing that's there today so your Zone plan uh has various metrics we meet a majority of those metrics uh the home will not have a significant impact on the visual aspects as your master plan is concerned about because it is tued away in and that's a unique feature of this slot with respect to the shape and how the house is positioned so when we look at this on balance I do believe the variant is can to be granted without substantial detriment to the public good without substantial detriment to your to your ordinance and plan and ultimately I think it's it's an efficient way to make this house more thank I Mr sard we talk about an increase in square footage at 188 sare ft what I remember from the hearing in January is not understanding how the house became as large as it is I remember a series of issues with regard to the rear yard and improvements in the rear yard um can you help the board understand with regard to what sits there today and uh where exactly the approvals came from with regard the permitting or variances that were granted to leave us with the house at 3,200 plus or minus if that's what it sits as today 31 change um I mean there's a series of approvals from the the '90s and resolutions um for the board I don't have all the pl admittedly uh for that but um what did the resolutions in the 90s um authorized to be built here in terms oftal square footage recognizing that there's a new way of calculating square footage which you're taking advantage of when you present it as it is what it is but what exactly was approved the the resolutions I've been provided with uh one of them being from March 194 uh is a resolution that provides for the construction of an elevated 10 wide by with the elevated deck at the rear of the dwelling um to my knowledge that is not there uh so I don't think right this no that's not there's not much details a two-page resolution uh the other resolution that I've been provided was November 19 1993 resolution that grants permission to construct a two-story addition and a one-story twocc car garage at premesis again uh this is a two-page resolution that does not go into the details of um bulk standards measurements square footage uh and I I don't have plans I don't I don't believe that should a copy of those PLS that correct uh no I think there's burial drawings in the reference but I don't think it has the same kind breakout that we see today so I I think we concluded in January that the deck may not exist as was approved in '94 but that there were improvements in the backyard um Mr SAS can you show us where the improvements are in the backyard and can you confirm with us that they're compliance the the existing improvements the deck the um yeah the deck you can see the property survey pretty much act with the first FL uh it appears the setback I would think would need to it's attached to the house I would think has to comply to the principal setback so therefore it wouldn't how much uh so most the deck I would say is about check here the bulk of the deck looks to be about 12T off the rear property whereas 30 ft is required there is a little bit of an offshoot like a little Landing that comes even closer maybe seven or eight feet so Mr sard what did the 2000 uh 1994 resolution approved with regard to setback for the deck that doesn't exist it is not delineated in this resolution okay with regard to the other resolution from 1993 I understood that resolution to authorize the construction of a two-car one-story two-car garage and I understand that that's currently being used as living space yeah that's my understanding as well ACC and do we believe that the space that's currently being used as space was approved by that resolution I I don't believe it was and I think that the applicant acknowledge is that it's not you know you don't see the insulation in that space that would indicate that it was originally constructed that way Mr J with regard to your testimony and the suggestion that what we're doing is we're increasing the size of an existing house by 188 Square F feet do you think that that's an accurate statement in light of the fact that it's not clear that we have any Authority granted to former owners with regard to the house that exists there today and how it's being used again I'm I'm strictly going by the calculations uh that the architect provided pursuant to your ordinance what there today um we agree we don't believe the the improvements over the garage are permitted or or constructed with per well you know anticipated uh in any construction periods and probably not constructed to code quite frankly can you tell the board what the deviation is from what would be what would exist today if it were being used as it was originally authorized from what you proposed if you were going to not count that area at all as we talking about just to be clear the presentation is that you're increasing the size of the existing house by 180 Square ft the testimony of the planner was that we have a minor deviation in to make this house liveable I'm suggesting to you that that may not be exactly representative of situation and I'd like to understand what the real situation is from what was previously approved to what you proposed to build I would say right now the area above the garage not finished but is calculated from the zoning ordinance is giving us about roughly 400 square F feet and then on top of that what you're asking is the8 yes so that would be 5 if you were going to Discount the area above the garage so Mr J Mr J I always struggle to get um how does that difference between 188 square feet and 500 and how many 5888 clearly using clearly using rough numbers yeah so how does that affect the testimony provided to aort well quite frankly whether that's space that's legitim or not in terms of square footage what we are seeking to do again is put a second story over the garage that is the deviation that's requested it's a question of how that square footage was calculated we're not counting the existing space that's there today whether that was there legitimately or not we are seeking a an area over the garage that's 588 square feet in order to accommodate the V uh that is a again a deviation from it the house is still still over even taking that away in terms of what the district permits however as I had testified that addition um and it won't change the appearance is still in a portion of the lot that's back it's within the height that's permitted it's that backs are generally consistent again small deviations less than one foot at the ACT uh deviation Point um and a majority of the house and concerned when we look at that in totality of the massing of the entire house a majority of the house to the left of property is not visible from the street because it's screen so in terms of impact to the neighborhood and impact to the streetscape I still believe it's the Minimus even though we're calculating that deviation as 588 versus 188 when you when you talk about it as 188 it's kind of deceptive because that 400 that exists is under the current roof correct so what you're doing is you're raising that 400 and an additional 188 8T above what exists now which is still within the permitted height envelope with addition um but you would 588 let's say you were coming to the 58 now which in a sense is what you wouldn't characterize that as no and I didn't characterize the 188 again what we're doing in terms of messing is putting it over the garage we're not hiding any of that the garage will be lifted 8 feet there will be that mass and that's that's the deviation and we're requesting over the existing footprint we're not going out we're not exceeding the height requirement uh we are working with an existing footprint and again the testimony is that there's a significant inefficiency to to the home as it sits today with the allocation of square footage on the first floor and not having any usable space for additional uh bedrooms or bedrooms that would be conducive to family life with small children um so we we do need that space in order to make this house more liable for a family particularly with three children third coming out the way with with the flag shaped of a lot do you feel like that full 10,000 square feet is what supports the size of this house where when when that that front portion of the flag is not really part of what you consider your building envelope no but it is well it is part of the building envelope because there is a portion of that that could be built upon the house that sits there today and that original footprint that goes back to 52 was set back but yeah I am relying on the shape of the lot because as I mentioned the unique feature of this is that because of the shape the house is pushed back and really screamed from view when when we're looking at the neighborhood and the continuity of the neighborhood If This Were up along the street Frontage it would be noticeable right but because of the shape because of the shape and the way scen 2/3 Square in the back of the lot that 2/3 Square actually exceeds what the minimum lot area would be for the R5 right but you way exceed the square footage already is what I'm saying we do exceed it but again by your other metrics in terms of measurement of a house on a lot you say the other metrics but the reason that the cap was added understand was because they believe that there should be more restraint than those other metrics so they added a cap and you're exceeding that cap and you're exceeding the cap already from the next Zone up the H the house today exceeds the R5 the house today is consistent with r75 is it no it's over no it's over r75 3020 is over 3020 and if we're saying we're adding 588 you're over 3020 existed wait the the the where we started was that you're already open if we're trying to figure out where you should be legally you are under that's right we're backtracking the 588 we're under and the other question I have you you talked about all the setbacks that you have only Domino uh yeah ex actually the front of thear the front of the garage is comp back of the garage is well by one where did you get the rear yard set back the rear yard I'm measuring it to the garage which is what's going to be impacted by the addition but that's not the rear yard set back of the house that's a portion of the rear yard set that's not the rear yard sent back of the house though but but this is how we analyze it for the purpose of the VAR right you can't put that on yeah okay what's the actual rear yard setback of the house oh varies it's as close as 7 ft it doesn't vary it is whatever is the closest point to the property closest point is the left side of the house uh which is I think 7 10 10.7 the true rear yard set back of the house not changing by virt I understand that I'm just clarification so the the rear yard setback with regard to what you're exacerbating with the proposed addition the rear yard setback is within a foot of compliance is that correct n and the side yard setback is within a foot ofine one1 of one foot okay on the side yard setback where you're exacerbating the balance of the structure complies with the setback it's all one foot short uh well actually the front of that garage is compliant the front of that garage is set back at Point uh at 7.1 so Seven's required look so so this is the problem I have with this application we had this problem in January when you look at the addition you can look at it one way but you have to start by looking at the house what I'm asking you is how far the sidey setback is with regard to the main structure of what there today it's within one foot of what's required correct that's correct and in the backyard you're exacerbating the pre-existing non-conforming condition with regard to the barage by approximately a flood but you have improvements that are as close as 7 feet to the property boundary elsewhere and you have other improvements which we don't know that there's ever been any approvals granted for their existence which exceed that that setback requirement as well correct meaning the dep the current house is more than 500 square feet over the minimum and that was approved in 1993 correct that's my understanding yes is are you testifying before this board that the incremental increases of the the size of the structure on this lot do not matter to zoning and that we should simply allow allow ourselves to understand this to be there and simply modified slightly in order to make it work or does the board need to consider all the deviations in total and try and get a handle on whether or not the total structure at 3,300 ft in an R5 Zone it's more than 1100 ft over what the Zone requires permits can we not take all that into account should we not because I'm having trouble getting through all those existing to get to the Minimus change that been presented to us that we should consider in order to make this house more useful in 2024 no you you you should consider that as you did in the application for the lot across the street which again was an 11,000 foot lot in the R5 Zone with a house that was a little over 3,000 ft approved and I believe that was new construction so there are factors such as the size of the lot and specific to this lot the shape of the lot which I think diminish the impact of these inconsistencies yes the house is larger than than is the minimum habitable floor but there are offsetting conditions that soften that meaning the size of the lot the uh the rear of the lot being set back and having a significant portion of the house screen not being something that's interruptive of the streetcape or the neighborhood uh character or pattern um and the fact that the addition that's being proposed over the garage still Falls within the envelope of height and has a Dom Minimus setback itself so in terms of intrusion and we look at this in terms of impact on the neighbors impact on the community the the intrusion is the Minimus and within the expectations I mentioned within light air and open space with this thing that zoning seeks to protect we are protective of that in the manner that we're doing this so it's it's my opinion that we have we have a foundation we have a footprint we have a house that's non-compliant we're trying to make it more livable there are limited uh ways to do that I think what we selected to do is very efficient in terms of it's simply adding 8T over a garage structure we're not expanding any foundations we're not demolishing anything we're not creating trash we're not creating Nuance to the neighborhood in terms of long-term construction excavation and the like so it's it's an efficient method of being able to make a house that's already problematic uh more livable and sustainable but at the same time you're leaving what even you described as wasted space on the left side of the the first floor of that house I said it was inefficient space in terms of being able to be used as a bedroom because it's it's removed from the second floor again a family with children parents especially with newborns and young children want to be proxim you don't want to be on a separate level where you can't hear the children or get to them quickly in terms of an issue trying to make this something that's consistent and conducive to family life Mr J if you were proposing to build this entire house brand new all of it it was a vacant lot you want to build it exactly as it sits today would your testimony be to say I I haven't looked at it from that perspective the problem I have is that there's no question in my mind that we wouldn't approve that house in I understand the argument that the incremental increase in the size of the square footage is to Minimus if you look at it a particular way but the end result is something that this board in my view would never approve as a total project and the problem is that you're not coming to us with a house that is there based on some previous board's approval or based on pulling permits and compliance with with the the requirements well my understand is the house footprint was permitted with the addition in the garage that that is my understanding and to the extent that the the rear deck that we've talked about is not permitted let's have a discussion about that because certainly that the application certainly doesn't rise and fall on U um a deck and I know the applicant feels that way so if that's something that changes how the the board feels happy to discuss that what are the setbacks on the piece of the house that sits to the South uh the the rear on story portion which we believe was the original house uh is about 8.8 on the side left side of yard setback and the rear setback is 10.6 and what are the requirements requirements on the rear yard setback are 30 uh and the side yard setback is seven and 16 total so I would say since seven almost Seven's provide on the right side I would think the the left side would have to be nine so I think the left side's pretty close because it's 8.9 8.8 so I think the combined side are setback it's I think combined three below the total yeah I think it deviates by three or four inches of the combined total requirement I think the issues the rear Road setback is not 30 it's 10.6 if everything else on that lot was compliant I think that the argument would be strong to increase the size of this house by 188 squ not only is it not compliant it's clearly not it it it seems to me that it it has never been approved or authorized and the idea of granting an approval is effectively granting um what what's the say don't ask for permission ask for forgiveness that's how it feels to me it feels like what the board would effectively be doing I'm happy to clarify the the footprint from what we understand has been approved I think the main thing architecturally the deck I'm not commenting on that is the area above the garage was finished apparently without permits I don't think it would have ever gotten approved for building code uh and then that we were counting by the ordinance that toward the square footage so the square footage instead of 188 increase really if you're going to Discount that which I think is a reasonable approach is 588 but the footprint in the bulk I believe was all approved that's our resolution so that rear attention I got it okay I got it in 93 this board I wasn't on that anybody else on there they granted permission to build the garage adjacent to an existing structure they permitted at that time house that was in excess of square footage permitted within in the zone I'm just guessing but 500 square feet in excess that issue was addressed in 1993 in 1994 this board was asked to Grant a deviation with regard to a debt today what we have is a deck that isn't there the existing deck that is not consistent with what the original approval was we have effectively moved through whatever the consideration was for allowing the house to be 500 ft larger than what was permitted and we now have in addition to that the use of the second floor in a way that is not identified in the resolution we've all agreed that it isn't compliant with with with safety codes or or any of the rest we have a situation which we're then being asked to view as a small deviation from what's there today to make it more usable and livable and that's your best argument I got it but we're skipping over all the hard stuff to get there and I can't understand how we would allow this house to be built if we were starting from the beginning and you don't have an existing approved project to say I'm going to deviate from what somebody else said was okay by adding 188 square feet to make it more livable in fact you're also taking advantage of the fact that we've changed the way we calculate square footage so even those numbers are actually more generous than they would been back in the day I I it was a problem that we had in January it's a problem that I still see here today I understand the argument I understand the the problems with the way the house is laid out but I don't understand how this board can solve that problem by allowing it to become 600 s feet bigger and to the extent that all we're really doing is adding 8 feet I'm not seeing an effort to contain this to use what you already have to reuse that to remove stuff you didn't come in and say Dex onone you you had you didn't talk about it until I raised it that the fact that you're only 7 feet off the rear yard matters the the impact of this house on the surrounding properties in all directions is evaluated by Me based on your compliance and frankly on three sides I see substantial deviations from what's permitted and and I don't see a a process that's followed to get you here based on other people saying we understand it we're going to Grant the variance instead I see Varian is granted in good faith by the board and I see a house it wasn't this owner I get it certainly I get it they came they got a CO they moved in we don't have SE they knew I got it I got it they like many others who live in the burrow find themselves surprised that what was fitted out is not compliant and I don't think most buyers go or or attorneys do openest and I'm not saying that's not an excuse for this application let let's take that what's the ceiling height above the garage when you walk into that space how tall is it s feet most probably more like six and a half Al under what circumstances would you walk into that space and assume that this is legitimate space that this is this has definitely been permitted um I don't I don't think that's that's Mr s's Point as much as not understanding that you can't build additional I I don't think they necessarily bought the house thinking oh this is legit space as much as why can't most people just don't understand own so that you know I understand they don't realize four I believe the house was sold to us as a four bedroom home uh so the three that included as a bedroom in the listing of the house and M and that doesn't even have legal egress so I don't know how someone sold it to you as I understand how difficult the situation is the board is not allowed we're not we're not authorized to Grant an approval based on the personal situation that you find yourself in what our job is is to understand the neighborhood to understand the zoning to try and understand what the council is telling us should be okay and to Grant deviation when it's appropriate Mr Jano did a great job of explaining when we should be doing had we taken it from when it was originally built in 1952 and we worked our way all the way here to where all we need is 188 square feet to make it work this board does that every single month we absolutely do but you are putting us in an incredibly difficult position to suggest that it's only 188 Square ft and when I look at a project which we would never approve on its own and I get that that's not all your problem and I also understand that's not an entirely Fair way to look at but at the end of the day it has to be considered and it's just it's not close well I'm not GNA you know I hear what you're saying 100% but I I'd also I guess suggest that If This Were A knockdown home you complied with all the standards you meet the r75 uh square footage and then you end up looking at the overall volume of the house which we don't do we at the habitable square feet someone would objectively probably go and say that's a really big house that's bigger than the one that's there with you Mr sardo I don't think you Mr sardo the requirements of R5 are exactly what for this lot R5 are 2200 I'm sorry did I say R5 what if it were r75 3,20 you're only using the square footage what are the rest of the requirements for the lot in order for us by the way we allow you to up some you don't even need to come if you can comply with r75 you can do it what are the requirements to get to 3020 our other deviations currently that we would need for r75 will be on coverage 500 foot further reduction and then there's the small deviations in the side yard because the side yards for R5 and r75 are the same what about the your rear yard that's you don't have FR if you were building new that rear yard would have all the way you can do it all you can do it all you can say r75 but you got to need it all you can't selectively look to r75 and just talk about the book without recognizing that it's got to be the full package and to the extent that you aren't r75 and you got to acknowledge that that that bulk can't be looked at alone the the lot unique you can make that argument but but it's not an r75 blot it doesn't comply can I go back to one thing that you mentioned so the house was marketed to as a four bedroom there's three bedrooms upstairs so either the office of the den or the office or the den downstairs was yeah there's an office that has a closet in it so they have essentially so that's a bedroom yeah it counts as a bedroom um it's for our needs we have no I understand it's very far away but it's a Ved yeah we yeah but what my point it was sold to us as a four bedroom and if we're if we're debating the legitimacy of that room above the garage that is is one of the bedrooms that they one of the four that they told and there's been no consideration to remove square footage from the existing from the original one story portion on the left hand side um I I look I I mean I get it it's there it's good space but when you asking for an egregious amount over and above what's permitted that's got to some consideration well the other issue is where the addition is being constructed look there's nothing easy about this house we talked about that in January too but if you were putting the addition back where it couldn't be viewed I assume Mr Jano would have a completely different and stronger argument to say that you can't even see it from the street but it's actually front and center so instead we pivot to the argument that the access on the other side can't be seen I get it but it's still 50% over what's permitted Within in the zone and it's still 600 ft new Okay so we've done a lot of back and forth and I thank you for accommodating my questions do you have any more testimony uh I don't can I I guess just a moment to discuss that sure maybe take five minutes I'm gonna just know I'm going to open to the public either way would you like me to do that first that's fine okay are there any members of the public that aren't here for Siege and spratz and would like to step forward and ask any questions who com please step forward hello again you saw for the testimony you given before the board is the truth whole truth talk about the truth I do can I ask for your name state spelling your last name please uh Nathaniel Matthews mws thank you floor is yours uh I live next door at 32 to Normandy which is as mentioned last time the house to the right is that to the north so that's lot four corre L four it's the one next to the garage which would arguably the most impacted um s do this last time still do this this time um I understand where you were the bo is coming from is much bigger than what's around the what the zoning allows but um I think that I had probably four points or that I was thinking about back there yeah um one I think that what's this conversation feels like it's painting these guys into a corner where it suddenly becomes more economically and legally feasible viable to uh knock the house down um I don't want that you said last time you don't want that um but it just feels feels like there's no solution here where they get what they want I think that the suggestion that they knock the what's actually relig structure the the one story violating area on the north is kind of ridiculous because it's a good space um you even brought up the point last time that that space this house basement that space kind of functions as the finish basement um obviously you can't just subtract that but from a from a practical standpoint I think that's a fair consideration in the favor um yeah from my personal experience of the house it was 70° the other day their window unit was firing away in that space above the garage I think a properly insulated properly ventilated room would uh improve my quality of life whether whether it's 18 high so once again I I think there's a path forward here that this is actually better for the nebor and I hope that thank you anyone else have any questions or comments regard to the Dion application direct you want to take a minut yeah Mr go through your uh yeah let's uh yeah few administrative items uh March 5th special meeting I did not attend but Mr Dr L was can you make a motion for minutes from the March 5th I a roll call you're ready no I was I'm sorry I can't I'm gonna have to ask everybody to keep it down please you call my name no didn't excuse me oh Mr Forte can you step back Days please there's a motion to approve the special minutes from the March your vote uh yes yes yes approve W um person we did uh mad 550 Riv Road I make a motion to approve the resolution as submitted for the M 5 reiv Road appli second Mr yes yes yes y yes yes yes DWI application 23 h Road I make a motion to approve the resolution for DWI 23 H Ro second Mr yes yes Mr Ryan Yes Yes Walker Mr yes I don't think I approved this Mar 7th regular meeting minutes uh I have reviewed the minutes for March 7th I have no changes to make I will make a motion to approve the minutes for March 7the second yes yes yes yes yes yes sure can okay okay what Sheila are we U are we need a discussion about with regard to the just kind of wanted to keep you apprised of what we have coming up so the's aware on monthly schedule so together tonight mad on May in May we have three application schedu Thompson and fall in June we have two application schedu rine and nelon in July we have one doy and a request from Goods to um move to August the one for July is proposing to move to AUST that is that the only one that we had in July was good sport or is that yeah it would have been two in July but they've requested to okay so there's still one on the book in in July yeah okay and that's where we are there's one more incomplete too that could be complete soon um and of course that gives us a little buffer in June we want to add third there's carry considering good yeah we're going to have to we're going to have to carry good one and um that's going to put four back to May and so um I'm G to suggest we consider a special for Jun um because we're going to need it by then but you're back Mr St so let me just make sure I understand you you completed your testimony we open to the public there was one member of the public that spoke and you asked for a to speak on it board hasn't deliberated you didn't technically close we're back to you um but you know I spoke to the client I think there's a lot of comments here today that I didn't necessarily anticipate uh and I think we want to take an opportunity to react to so we ask for an adjournment to do that and come back for the board a later date um I will I will make that motion Mr shardo what yeah we we we would ask you to wave uh your the time that the board has um I want to just throw a practical observation okay the 8 feet up is creating full habitable space within the 600 F feet of B it's not the minimum to make this area living if you start from understanding what it's going to take to convert that space into something loable add a couple of Dormers and figure out a way to tighten it up and you come back and you take us through what that additional space is in total but you've shown us how you minimize what that is I I think that it would have a bigger impact you know that we don't negotiate as how this is done but we we talked about it in January usually when people go they they they take those thoughts and they modify plans what you came back with tonight was largely what we saw in genuine entirely what we saw in genuine so I feel like we've done it twice I don't want you to go back and not understand that I see that when I look at this in terms of a path forward I I I I'm still troubled by some of the pre-existing non-conforming non-permitted non-approved items with regard to the house but but at least I could understand you know right you following me no 100% that's good part of my discussions okay so you've asked us to carry um what you missed is um all of our discussions about um basically having no time through July and needing potentially to schedule a special to June so that we can catch up I I don't think in this moment that we can tell you where we would carry you to but if you communicate with with the board secretary with regards to where you're at and when you're ready we're going to do the best we can and if we about this special coming in in June it it may well be that we can pick you up there I just I just don't know um can we be listed for a date just for the purposes can we be carried without further notice or is this going to be on notice we don't have a date I think we can carry you without further notice and if you wanted a hearing it would be July we don't have a date for the special in June yet and we don't know what the you know what May's carry over is going to look like so practical purposes if we assume everybody here that wants to be heard on this application has been heard and you want to do that without additional notice we're announcing we'll do this in July yeah in July so yes then you don't have to notice but if it's something else you go into that re noce issue understood well if it's beyond July we could announce it in July if for some reason we get through some stuff and we can see you sooner then and you can notice then we could do it sooner great and I I'll put on the record that I grant the extension time to act through the July date and if you need that in writing happy to do that when I get back to my office sure we'll all forget as soon as you leave I'll make a motion to car to I second thank roll call please yes yes yes yes yes thank you so is there anyone here in the goodwi matter I did receive a call I'll put this on the R I did receive a I didn't speak with him had an opportunity to speak to council uh who advised if we did have an application this evening another another venue you might be running l um he would he said he would advise me I don't know if people about okay so just to be clear there's no one here on the goodwind matter okay so we're going to move the good one matter we're about to hear sticks and Sprouts so what do we need to do with goodwi since there's nobody here to talk about it keep it I can try to reach out to Mr aens but I i' brother I spoke to him earlier and he said he's he's GNA be coming late and that he understood that he's later on the agenda we'll talk we'll talk to him later then and we'll deal with it later sticks and Sprouts the applicant Sprout rers I'll swear all your Witnesses in if you want to bring them up I'm here for the good one matter I'm just trying to get my upstairs are you Mrs goodwi yeah so Mrs good what I was going to tell you was that we were hopeful that we would be able to hear you tonight but given the room full of people and the fact that it's now 8:30 and we haven't started six and Sprouts there's no chance we're going to reach you so I didn't want you to wait any longer hoping that we might be able to get to you later so what we're going to do is if you wanted to reach out to Mr Akin so he doesn't unnecessarily come here um you can let him know that we were we told you to be able to get to you um we can have a discussion outside of the meeting as to when we can get you back on but my my thought would be that we're going to bump you to the next meeting so we would bump you to uh May assuming that works we have three from May they're just going to have to get pushed back so we're going to speak to Mr Akens about doing that do we need to make an announcement with regard anybody that may be here on good one if we're going to move it that way I would make that announcement we only but I'd rather have Mr aens be here I don't know what his well no I I I certainly hear that um so is there a way to is there a way to make the announcements so that if Mr Akens can do it we can roll right into next we don't need to re notice sure you want to do that well I'm going to make that announcement so with regard to the goodwi matter we're not going to hear it tonight we're going to be moving it to the main meeting if Mr Akens can't make the main meeting then we may have to ask you to Ren notice because we want to make sure that anybody that wants to be here through application understands when that application is going to proceed we'll have that discussion with Mr Akens after tonight thank you so move yeah all in favor by bring all your Witnesses J em I I'm ask you you okay what I'm going to ask you to do the same instruction I usually get folks before you start testifying please state your name loudly clearly spelling your last name so make sure we have a record of that your commission coun marit if you have any additional after we Mark the initial ones but I have for you at this point in time I have your zoning app ipation dated August 22nd 23 as A1 I have legal reasons why your variances should be approved as A2 I have the zon officer's letter of March 30th 2023 as A3 the completed Land Development checklist consisting of 11 P this is A4 dropping down we have A5 or a packet of images four sheets four four Images each for 16 images it's A5 A6 is a survey dated June 15 2023 with a handdrawn addition on it it does not look like it is a scale that's A6 A7 uh look like an aerial image of the site in addition to that we have uh zb1 which is the engineering report Mr gizo of November 7th 2023 we have zb2 again Eng report of January 23 20 192 excuse me 2024 um zb3 is a packet of materials um involving Christ Church United methodists handwritten documents from the planning board secretary looks like October 6 1980 a letter of October 2nd 1980 uh from Robert Thomas AIA the uh Christ Church site plan um and an excerpt from the minutes is dat few pages contemporaneous to that dat are there any other exhibits that you want the board to consider in addition to that we are now at a82 housing I see two boards with images oh that's correct um there's two boards with photographs um of the site you'll hear you want to get testimony about Foundation of those photographs right now we could do that or you could just until I'm pretty going to tie it up so we have two boards how many total images are there 1 2 3 four 5 6 78 nine images on the photo board to your left which will become a eight and one two three four five six images on the board to your right which would become A9 any other documents you want Bo to not at this time okay you go next one is to be right so chair Mr um I just go through the checklist wa at this point in time for um the first three that they're requesting are MTH County planning board free soils and MTH County Health Department as uh commission many approval I would recommend that these outside agencies amongst any others that they identifi be obtained and submitted to the board so no exception to that those waivers at this time um the rest are more so geared towards site plans um first is will serve letters um which I'll there testimony is to if they need any utilities if they do need them you would not you would recommend to be part of conditions of the um but next four I recommend be provided um through subsequent submission um that would just be a title block on the plan sheet um name address pH number property owner and applicant an approval signature block and then um formally depicting all of the existing and proposed condition setbacks say that all the setbacks are not shown on the side they have a a survey um instuctors are are outside of are well inside the footprint so they've been approximated so you're looking for modification I plan to show distances cor so confirm we have jurisdiction yes thank you so you've got three which are outside agencies you've got four which are technical detailed the outside agencies you suggested we condition any approval on those being obtained with regard to the four items you just referenced you're recommending that we simply require that that be done in the future um and added to the plans and and S of work through that what's the next thing and then the remainder um I don't take any exception to waving um at this point in time it is size and location of all structures within 200 fet of the property outside of property lines and then a few plans it's a grading utility plan Landscaping plan soil erosion plan lighting plan details um again I'll I'll for their testimony if they speak to proposing any of those really like Ste plan but at this time does they proposing anything go through one more time please the um the a lighting plan lighting plan the soils erosion plan if there erosion plan which would relate to disturbance in relation to improvements this application um as I understand it doesn't propose any new Improvement cor cor third thing Landscaping and I don't okay rating utility and then construction details they're all three of those last ones would relate to things that they were building and I understand they're not proposing to build anything cor okay and and your suggestion is that we ra down conditions on the testimony and our ability to make those a condition as exactly anybody have any questions about that everybody in agreement with recommendation yeah very question sure the applicant is not the own de side that's correct and then the applicant has the own commission proing this applic yes that is correct no I did not recall seeing it was submitted okay very I missed it I ask you to identify the principles in sticks and Sprouts LLC to make sure that there are no contct we did not have the list of of the principles in the principal of sticks and Sprouts LLC the applican is uh Soul member Emily McHugh who seated to my left over Mr yours okay so we're here for sticks and sprats um the property is 300 Ridge Road um know it as the I get the name of the church wrong um Emily help me out the CH United Method CH United Methodist um on that site is the uh the church and a telecommunications Tower the area that sticks and Sprouts is proposing to use and has been using and you'll get the background of that momentarily is this squared off area on the Westerly side if you're looking at the survey and I'm sorry I don't have a poster board with it I don't so what's that a part of the application else see the large yeah so the area that we're talking about if you're looking at the survey Mr leader has it in front of him it's on the Westerly side of the property and it's a a square shaped denoting a wooden fence and that the area we're talking about um with in that area is boat and some toys and you'll hear more about that in a little while um like I said our Witnesses this evening will be Emily mugh who's the principal operator for the applicant and Mr jenss who's our professional planer um M McHugh was sworn in so um Mr just ask you a question so you pointed us to the wood fence right there's two sheds that are outside that fence your client has a lease to use the property I'm guessing yes can you can you tell us exactly what property they control pursuing for that lease is it simply all the area inside of the fence I can have m m talk about that okay yeah I so I I lease the inside of the fence and they have allowed me to use the sheds when I need them um I know the Boy Scouts own one of the sheds and the church owns the other one okay so your rights are to use this area to share use of both of the sheds is one of them yours no one is um a former councilman shed actually okay so there's two sheds which you have some use of but they're not their your exclusive sheds correct and do you have any other access to the parking area or the restroom facilities inside of the church uh I personally use the bathroom no no clients go inside the church ever um so that's not used for any of my clients and they are allowed to use the parking lot okay mrad you seen the Le I have not seen Le sure okay thanks okay so so Emily can can you just describe the origins of sticks and sprouts and um your motivation for starting the business so um Emily mchu MCC UL I'm a pediatric occupational therapist and I previously worked in several school districts in the area and Outpatient Therapy I saw a huge gap in Services providing outdoor education and developmentally appropriate uh learning opportunities for children so I started sticks and Sprouts to bridge that Gap and create a safe inclusive outdoor environment where children and families can come together uh to learn and grow and um can you talk about sticks Sprout's Mission a little bit more sure so our mission is to provide an inclusive Outdoor Learning environment to help our children grow develop and Thrive Fair Haven is very much a family oriented town with a lot of children and these parents want the best for their children and our mission aligns with that we want to provide a place for these kids to develop um the skills necessary for optimal growth so let's get into um the types and frequencies of classes that sticks and Sprouts offers so you can tell us a little bit about what goes on in the classes and and and a bit about the schedule sure so we run our classes in four to six week semesters um and the days of the week can change we never have a class that begins before 9:00 a.m. and every class ends before 6:30 p.m. um right now we're running classes on Wednesdays Thursdays and Fridays and occasionally we do run weekend programming as well was there a question on the board do you run all year round uh yes all year round anything above 20 degrees and and can people just drive up and join in or do they have to register how's that so you have to pre-register you sign waivers online um and then you're given all the details on class at parking things like that so you do have to register okay um and can you just go into a little bit more about what exactly occurs during the class so we run two main types of classes we run a class for younger children that's ages one and a half to five and that's a caregiver and me format so the caregivers must be with their child at all times and then we run a drop off program for ages 4 to eight um and for that class we spend some time at the site and then we also um secure permits for your Park and Rex department and we use the trails paying 10% of registration fees back to the burough and we we started in 2021 actually at the Fair Haven natural Trail uh entrance and we needed more space so I met with the parks and rec for back in 2021 and they actually recommended that I go to the church and ask if I could use the sheds for storage I went to the church and they said actually you can lease this Garden which was an overgrown Garden so I took that over and that's how we ended up where we are I'm sorry so the description of what you did did not it didn't always happen within the fence no so we used to operate at the uh right next to the community garden at the nature trail entrance and I would secure permits through the park and re department and then we needed more storage so I met with them had a board meeting and they said we can't allow you to have public St uh storage on public property and they advised that I go to the church so that's you say board meeting you're talking about the board for the parks and W board okay yeah so how long have you been here in fense area two years almost two years exactly okay I I don't want to spoil a littleit moment okay so you you were talking about can you refresh for's memory about your um your educational background and Licensing sure so I'm a pediatric occupational therapist and I I work with children um in outpatient and school settings and I go into the homes um as I said earlier I have a master's degree in this and there is such a lack of play um and a really a lack of education so that how this all started how many how many children would be in each class so for our younger classes the ages one and a half to five anywhere from 18 to 22 children and for the drop off classes anywhere from 10 to 12 so is that 18 to 22 children plus one adult correct so the career so double that 40 40 plus how many instructors or just so for drop off classes we have three instructors but for those classes it's just and there's adequate parking in the church lot for for 18 to 22 so we've been there for two years and there's never been a lack of parking you said you sometimes operate on the weekends does that come in conflict with the church parking or uh no and I'll and I'll ask the church if they have like services that would um you know run into the same time and create a lack of parking but there's always been ample parking and and whether it's technically allowed or not is the traffic through there when there's sporting events on the weekends uh affect where you are where you park walking across to that Fen area no so I don't run CL like on those like heavy Fair Haven Sports weekends we've never run classes so it doesn't coincide and do your classes ever coincide with church services I'm not sure if that question was asked directly yeah do you have their schedule and do you um specifically seek out these times Well I talk to the pastor quite often so I run everything by him does the church have um like weekly meetings or anything classes or anything that they have they don't run Sunday school or anything like that so just masses on Sunday or anything else everywh uh that's all on the road Mr s i I did not understand maybe I didn't read carefully enough that this started as something different than what happening inside of the fence um I'm not at all familiar with licensing I'm not at all familiar with how um an operation like you originally ran miss m operates um but are there you said that you were getting permits from the from the town for the use of the park so if for the use of the trails yeah okay so you meeting on Park property so the use of the trails effectively is every time you had a class you would have some special permission from from the buau to be able to use the the public space that you're using correct so do do you I understand you have a background in education what what sort of what sort of licenses right what what what what sort of governmental oversight is there to this process and and I guess the real question is what's required and and and and what do you have so because we don't work with infants and because we don't have any drop off programs over two hours we don't need a childcare licensing the state so beyond the permits that you had from Fair Haven to be using the Park area there was nothing else that's legally required well yeah correct I'm fully insured and um but besides that there's no other legal requirements but the insurance isn't something required of you that's something you elected to do well in order to use the park property I do need to add you guys as the town requ you do that did you still use that for drop off classes so so three classes a week not for the bulk of my classes and I can Contin to get conferance I have one right now so so is it fair to make the connection that the original operation was legal being operated exactly as it should and that the movement of the classes inside of the fence area has triggered a land use process that that is why we're all here and I mean all all here um and that and that the operation of the educational facility inside of this fence did not trigger any other licenses any governmental oversight that's that's off the table right you're telling us you're entirely compliant with all of those things because there's nothing there's nothing okay I've called the state many times look I I find it I I I do find it remarkable um because I'm familiar with daycare centers I'm familiar with schools unfamiliar with I mean you can't put kids on a piece of land without being able to certify that Environmental clean but site plan issues are site plan issues that's what we're here for but what you're representing to the board is that all of that stuff is compliant with not to the best of her knowledge and she said she has checked and double checked and triple checked that's correct wasn't there something in one of the letters about the business not being registered with the burrow we weren't previously we are now I was totally underware I needed to do that and when I got the letter I register and how far back to the um the walking tours before you got into the Pence area that was 2021 right when we first started yeah 2021 correct that's when you started in the fence area 2022 April of 2022 is when we started in the fence area so 2021 was when you started with the the nature walks and the meetups and then about 12 months later you moved into the fence St cor okay can give this specific dimensions of the I see it g di mentions for so in the future we know talking about the same area 75 74 maybe it's almost a perfect square we can we can make sure that's noted on any compliance plans a addition of approval if the board would need [Music] to given that there's quite a few children involved has there been any thought of expanding the area have you been yet like a second location in terms of that or the no did you build the fence uh yeah I put up the the fence had there been a fence there had been a a previous fence that we took down I had permission from the church to put up was the previous Fence located in the same area was the previous fence permitted it was put up by the Boy Scout so and what was it used for I'm sorry what was it used for uh it used to be a community garden and then it was it was a pretty sad site when I got there there so we cleaned it all up and put up the new fence broken down deer fence what was the fence made up question the previous fence metal metal and what what recreational items do you have within the boundaries of the fence um so we have some benches when you first walk in and then on the um it's kind of split into two areas on the second side we we have a large mud kitchen we have wood chips we have ramps we have some toy trucks uh we have a Children's Garden so there's some garden boxes in there it's been some years since my daughter was a metal flower but if I recall across this across the the driveway there was a playground there is that still there correct do you do you make use of it no that's met flowers slides trampolines uh uh no no so all those things you just listed do they stay in the fenc area all day every day or do you put them in the sheds when you're done so the larger items like the mud kitchen stays and the ramps the smaller toys and things like that I'll get put away shs uh no actually I have a storage unit in T and Falls where most of the stuff goes so do you bring them with you each time or do they generally stay for a few weeks so they'll stay like right now uh Wednesday through Friday they'll stay but at the end of each series of classes at the end of Wednesday everything gets cleaned up tarped over things get put away taken out the next morning again I assume it's safe to to assume that you didn't get a permit when you built the fence that you replaced it with correct and you didn't put the sheds there they were already there yeah I think they've been there for like 20 years there and the structures on the inside of the fence I'm understanding play toys as you're describing it I don't know what a mud Garden is but are there are there fixed structures no I mean the the mud kitchen is can I can you um maybe take them through the photographs and we can talk about these this will be time to maybe answer that question by talking about these photographs and if you allow me a couple questions and we'll get right to the answer to your question Mr leader um are you know these photographs yes you know who took them me who took them you did uh around when were these photographs taken the past two years within the past two years so these are just a collection of photos um throughout your operations um and so A8 is the one to our left looking at them um can you just kind of describe what we see in those photographs sure so the boy with the flowers in the top left behind him you'll see a small wooden table um the girl below her is in the construction zone where we have some vests and shovels that you can't see pictured um the girl in the big mud pit we have a hole that often FS up with mud and the children love it so that's our mud hole the boy in the Dragon rain suit is at the mud kitchen the girl below is um sitting on a bench the girl to the right is in our construction zone with their goggles on and then that other boy is painting the PS and the photographs on a n um have six photographs um you want to just give just a quick rundown of what we see in there sure so the beginning of our younger classes you see the girl with the feathers behind her you might do a craft or some sort of activity together so you can see we were hanging feathers that day the boy below is enjoying the mud um the boy to the right is in the snow and then the one above actually lives on marter AB right next to our site and he is pumping water down one of our ramps now that ramp that I see there is that is that fixed into the ground with footings or is that just a piece of like I I carried it in okay um and does this accurately depict the nature of what is found within the fenced area is there anything more substantial inside than what we SE I say the heaviest thing is the mud kitchen but it's movable okay and that's not just you know footing it's putot into okay there's two fenced areas you run one class at a time right not not two classes yes we come in and We Gather at the first area around the benches do a warm up and then we head to the second side where uh almost all these pictures are on that second side is this play or is it is there an educational component so play actually is a huge part of education so it kind of goes together um they're described as outdoor play classes but for children play is education so that's the whole like Mission behind what we're doing so when you say play are are you trying to to to get kids to get along with each other I mean what are you trying to accomplish with with your play there sure so through grp play kids learn like we said how to get along how to follow directions they have they learn sensory integration F motor skills gross motor skills um emotional well-being so when you come to six and Sprouts your child is working on on all those things there ay question uh on this Photograph I don't know what the exhibit is uh there's signage there is that was that is that all within our guidelines for signage was it approved was it plan whether it's permitted or will be permitted so I didn't get a permit there was those posts were always there and the sign us used to say community garden and I had commission to put up the sign that now says Dion BR I I I want to I want to make a suggestion I'm going to stipulate that every kid on those pictures has a smiling face and that the mission that you have is a worthy Vision I want to understand what the site plan requirements are of this board with regard to the operation to the extent that there is state regulatory County regulatory Health Department regulatory I'm going to leave all that for them right I want to understand with regard to the site plan issues alone an operation that apparently can exist and is permitted to do walks through the woods moves inside of a fence area now we're looking at a site plan what exactly do Fair Haven's ordinances require of this exactly where do we need to deviate from Stand standards let's focus on the issues that are problematic that get us here I can get right into that if you'd like we can get back into whether or not there was a kid that was upset once but I don't think that we need to we're just laying a a groundwork for General Welfare things like that but I can get into the site specific we can come back to this I'm just I'm just suggesting to you that understanding that there's no licenses at issue and that this operation is entirely legal which by the way the qualifier that to the best of our knowledge any resolution of approval is going to be explicit with regard to what we're doing um and fences in town they get replaced with permits signs go up they go up with permits you contacted the town with regard to walking through the woods I give you credit for that but the the process the process is going to be in thetion but but where are we at variance with what's required I know that you need a general site plan approval but where are we deviating from standards I'm surprised that you have no access to bathroom I am also surprised that at times you have 20 parents here in a parking lot that has barely 20 spaces and we have a nursery school here my kids went to meal flower too we provide for you 40 spaces well do you though yeah you got three different users of this site that's that's true but how many of those 40 spaces are used by other users at the same time is there any coincidence with metal flowers classes in your Mr don't do it that way you know that with regard to the use of parking spaces we allocate them for a particular use true if you can show me a lease and we can talk about what she specifically limited to do but apparently you haven't seen the leaks which frankly I I I don't understand but nevertheless let's talk about what the fence means let's talk about what a site plan means in Far Haven and let's talk about where this board is being asked to deviate from the standards that you apply the only standard that we're deviating from is um and get first and foremost it's a new correct state that first and then moving into the site plan from there thing they looking at is is parking correct so the question about where we deviating from with respect to the site plan we're only deviating as it relates to parking the number of spaces so I can provide a little testimony from M mq to allow us to establish the number of parking spaces that would be required and then you'll your testimony about why we think uh a variance is Justified for the use now for the use variance and for Associated parking vs okay shall sure okay um so Emily at at some point were you asked to go inside the church and count the number of chairs yes and um and did you do that I did and what did you want 27 chairs 127 chairs and those are 127 chairs that were set up set up they are removable what kind of chair um kind like the one I'm sitting okay um and were there any other chairs that you observe no just 127 was there 14 more I'm sorry I I may have I may have told you that there were so I think 14 of the 127 were against the wall kind of like extra chairs 27 a total yes okay and you've testified that only one class goes on at at at a given time correct um Mr Rizo did you agree with my suggestion that this was um like a classroom uh use and I do so to your point um Mr chair and board members there's obviously no designated use in the parking ordinance for sticks and Sprouts so I worked with Mr Saudi here and we we combined a few sections um and the parking ordinance to to come up with a number um the first one is for church and synagogue that is either one parking space per three seats or 22 inches um Pew of Pew correct in this case we being told that there's seats in the church um 127 seats um I originally had 47 spaces Associated do you know what the the new map is it's uh one per three open so that's it's 43 spaces so the church itself is going to require 43 spaces the next use um is thck and Sprouts which there's a few uses that are similar there's community center community club meeting rooms assembly studio and then schools so we took what I think is probably a conservative approach with schools um and it's two spaces per classroom um but not less than one per teacher um and staff so I think you said three teachers originally sounds like it's one there's for our drop off classes we have three teachers but that's like the most we have but in addition to you including me including me so that's that's three honestly heing your testimony it sounds like that's a lot less than probably would need considering there's 20 pounds for the caregiver classes the the the caregivers stay and so each one of those caregivers drove you know you could imagine a car per caregiver that's 20 20 22 I can't remember 222 and there are 40 SPAC so by by that meth it's 43 for the church three for this use 46 um I think we probably need to reevaluate now that we know that there's potentially 20 Vehicles here here at a given time so we we talked about that what about the nursery school the nursery school is a drop off uh I mean that's not a caregiver situation so the nursery school has like eight classrooms and they also have teachers right so like Jen couldn't be here tonight who runs meow flower um but we we talk all the time and like I said there's never been a lack of parking for for the preschool or for us okay but do we know what their parking requirement the point I think the chair is making do we know what their parking need is because we're only talking about one parking spot well there's school then they need what a parking spot per teacher and a certain number per classroom and one procedure and just so the record is clear to Mr R where there is not a specific definition for some for parking within our the board has the ability as you've done to select what they believe is appropriate correct correct and this you also because I as I mentioned before I am over the fields SP Fields almost every day with my dog around the time your school starts uh you also overflow in public parking which is the entrance on the road with the gra Lots correct yeah so people will park there as well yes which I need to get there before drop off so I can par walk my my own issues said on on a that would be it's when you come in off the bridge and you have the um the nature area on one side and then you have the back and this end of the back like the soccer field let me make sure I understand what you just said because my kids went to metlow before sticks and Sprouts apparently you're telling me that in the morning that when you go to walk your dog if you go at the wrong time every single one of these spaces is full I would have to park further up towards Ridge but there is an overflow that comes in and I'm not saying it's directly that it also could be from the nursery school so it's when you come up from oh I know where you this side this side the point is is already an issue you're pointing out there's access to parking along the road that that's all you're saying there there's that's a lot the public lot on the East End of the Fair Haven Fields between the nature area there is a road and as you're driving in there is a gravel line so there's two different kinds of discussions Mr Assad there's the discussion about what the Practical requirements are of this operation as it is that gets us into things such as we have classes where up to 20 parents are here bringing 20 CS then there is the technical requirements of the site to the extent that we are trying to delve into what is technically required off-site parking on public property as Mr canel's referenced is irrelevant if we want to talk about that being generally around that's one thing I misunderstood whether not that access was actually necessary because this was fa but since we started can we finish the idea of what's technically required of the I'm calling it three uses so Jordan do you know I don't have the information on the nursery schools how many classrooms they have um so you expl the whole idea of people having to be sworn in before they can make comments or ask question people understand that clearly I I I will but I don't think everybody's we will when we open to the public they will come up I they don't seem to understand we're not open to public oh we're not open to public yet when you want to make comments we will call you up we will swear you in you will have your name put on the record right now this is a presentation from the applicant and the applicants professionals who have been sworn thank you there are four classrooms in met to the three uses we don't have that information well we just heard four classrooms in Mead FL eight and then six and then four I just made up eight because I've been in there I I I'm surprised it's only four but I don't know how many admin offices you're not in a position to tell us how many parking spaces are required for the other two users in the site is my understanding there's only one other user in the site who's that the nursery stool a church church yeah we just talked about the church okay same thing okay so so let's take the church how many spaces are in the parking room 40 and how many spaces are required for the church 4 okay so we're three short technically on the church and I understand that there's not a lot of people going to that church I get I live here too do you or do you not know how many parting spaces are required for the nursery school what's the standard on the nursery school it's two per classroom INE elementary school or what's a nursery school it's one for 20000 square feet one space per 200 square feet so I don't have a square foot calculation for the nursery school but it's one space per 200 square feet okay and with regard to the church analysis the only requirement for the building use as a church ties to the pews and the chairs you agree with that Mr Rizo yes so the rest of this building doesn't require any parking spaces right they have one Sanctuary they they what they have one Sanctuary that's we're assessing seats in a sanctuary okay okay and with regard to the to the nursery school we know what the standard is but we don't know what's required right another square foot we don't know those because we don't know the square foot and we also don't know the teachers we talked about how many be required for teachers it's school so I didn't know how we just flipped over to 200 square Fe so there there's Elementary intermediate and secondary schools um my original understanding of the project was that there would be three instructors so I thought basing on a number of instructors would be the closest representation but now hearing the testimony hearing that there's upwards of 20 parents that a given time for for this for the subject that's the met how how instructors I just want to clarify there are two distinct discussions there's the technical requirements which is why we're here we do technical then there are the arguments with regard to why the deviations are okay I don't want to have the arguments about why the deviations are okay overcome getting the basic backs on the record based on the sanctuary your three parking space is short based on what you have the nursery school requires calculations and data which we do not have correct correct okay correct so there's an additional parking load on this particular parking lot but we don't know what that number is not the exact number but we're hearing we're hearing one space per 200 fet we could probably estimate it with a pretty good degree of certainty what's that number well how many square feet is the church yes uh they they like building I think that has they have upper and a lower two platforms on each I think we're really really far field of getting anything that would be reliable I think that you should concede that you don't know the answer and we can move on to the next thing well I mean your engineer is trying to figure that out right now it's two stories right yeah I haven't been inside the nursery store it's two stor it's two stores so roughly 3500 sare F feet that would be 17 and 18 spaces so they have half the build in what's the other half the sanctuary and and the church offices and a big Hall so miss m I assume you've been in there many times uh the nursery or the church metaphor uh once I don't go in there often where are the bathrooms you don't get in the building for the bathroom I personally use the bathroom but there's a side door that goes right into the non-lower part of the church around the back yeah correct yeah by the fields I mean by the trees okay so you said there were four classrooms did okay minus three with regard to the sanctuary something that gets us to 18 so we're minus 21 let's get back to whether or not you have a number with regard to what's what should be considered with regard to what this use requires of that Park what what what did you what did you estimate going in tonight coming in tonight going in I estimated um a minimum of two per classroom but one per teacher with three teachers that would be three spaces for the inside defense area right right for the third user and based on what we talked about tonight so far with regard to the the the parent the parent class caregiver class what what what do you think that reasonable estimate is then I think um a better representation would probably be studio for art music dance gymnastics that's also 200 square feet per space um the fenced area is roughly over 5,000 square feet um so that's about 26 spaces in change um I think that's a lot more a better representation based on how many teachers and parents are going to do there if we're trying to figure it out some parents aren't going to be driving um that period is a limited amount of time but whether it's 26 or 20 or 18 I think we all can understand that at a certain time you're requiring spaces that are about that about that amount okay when you talked with regard to the parking what you explained to us is that effectively you are scheduling around activities you're scheduling around church activities you're scheduling around uh days that you know to be busy at the ball fields is there anything in particular that you do in order to identify what those busy days are at TH Fields uh so I very rarely run weekend um classes but like I know right baseball or Little League opening is this Saturday correct right so I wouldn't be running any classes do you do birthday parties or anything like that I do birthday parties on occasion for those on the week weekend or weekdays uh weekends have you had a situation where there is no parking available in parking have I had a say no because with the public parking the gravel locks a lot of our families will park there and then walk down and the church also has in front of the church you're allowed to park there's a big circle um I don't know the number of cars that can fit there but roughly 15 could fit around the front of the church in the circle as well with still room to pass it's considerable you could probably this area here from Ridge Road to the Circuit it could be it could be 15 probably at least 20 and then there's also other there oh this is that's part there's never but that's just okay so Mr in order for the board to approve the application report tonight we need to Grant a deviation from the parking requirements we've we've used the discussion to get to an analysis of what the parking requirements are the testimony has been that there is not a problem because of the both the timing and the coordination that's used by the applicate scheduling your classes and the Overflow parking that's available in various areas nearby right that's right okay what's next so we're move on to some different site related issues okay um is there any lighting being proposed no no is there any lighting along with fenc area now no do you ever conduct any activities after the sun goes down we had run classes when the sun was going down we had twinkle lights up and some movable spotlights um but all that's away know that daylight savings okay um are there any utilities being provided or currently provided or proposed to be provided to the fenced area no is there any garbage ever generated from the use since so how are you dealing with that so I bring it home or I put it into the church garbage cans and we probably generate one bag every 3 to four weeks it's very you provide a garbage can do I I have my own garbage can there and then the church also has two garbage cans but I mean it's one bag every three to four weeks and sometimes I just throw it in my truck and I assume you have kids that are in diapers I don't have kids kids we don't get that far oh yeah there's kids and diapers so where where do you where do you change a diapers uh they they'll well they'll do at their cars typically there's never been a diaper changing class that I can recall or they'll use the public um Park bathroom and that's maybe one person every two classes or so I'd say that walk over there but it's only a 45 minute class so what bathroom do your kids use uh they'll either go to their car and they have um squatty potties or they go to the park bathrooms so Mr you know from time to time when we're speaking to users of property we talk about how the property is being used specifically with details is the is the proposal tonight to create some sort of parameters not only around what's currently being done but around what the limits of what will be done in the future yeah that's one of the objectives tonight um you've heard testimony that six and Sprouts activities don't take place while church services are going on um partially for parking and you know and and other reasons um that these activities you do propose to do some night activities at certain times of year is that correct so we did that for the first time this year for four weeks but okay and when you do it it's what's tell tell me more about that sure so the sun probably went down the last 20 minutes of class or so so we had headlamps and the lights up at the site and the spotlights um and the kids play does the uh Church site itself have lighting there is one light in that Park okay is it adequate to safely get out once that night class is over I wouldn't say so we've never had any incident you can you can see yeah yeah you can see I'm struggling requ I'm struggling with the answer to the question if I I think the testimony was that you'd explain the the types and and numbers of classes that you're running now you've explained kind of some some times where you've done things at night I'm wondering what what proposal there is to understand what the impact of this use is both as it is represented here tonight and if it became five times the intensity is there is there a proposal to say this is what we want to do we're doing three classes no more a day we're doing only I think you testified Monday Wednesday Friday and an occasional weekend are you constraining it or are you asking effectively for the site to be approved for this use with without any constraints because all the facts are relevant to the way it's working today so you know I know it's kind of silly that the kids go to the bar and they do squatty potties and stuff but it it's it's not really the way I would imagine that this could be done a little bit here and there okay but like like as we're starting to add classes and as we're doing things it changes it and so I just want to understand I'm not putting that on you I'm asking you whether or not you're presenting it as some sort of a an okay to do it as it's being done sure so let me let me ask the question um in a way so that you answer it you know the way you want to answer it if you were to tell the board we're only going to be open three days a week and the board were to approve you if you try to open four days a week you're stuck with the three-day so I think what the question is getting at is um about the intensity of how you foresee your operation going in the future um will it go seven days a week will it go all day long seven days a week can you discuss those intentions with the board sure so each semester we change the days that classes run depending on demand from the clients um so we have run classes on Monday Tuesdays and Wednesdays right now we're Wednesday Thursday Fridays we always do occasional weekends um so I would love to keep that open but I I'm never going to run more than one class there's never going to be more than that Max of 22 children there at a time that make sense okay what is the space between classes in a day does one class end at one and the next class starts at one uh there's a half an hour between those classes with 18 to 22 students so there's a half an hour in between where everyone leaves and then the next and how day uh right now three and what time there I know one at nine so uh it depends so right now Wednesdays we have a 9:30 and a 10:45 Thursdays are 9 10:15 and 11:30 and then our two drop off classes in the afternoon on a Thursday so that's five but that's a different typ of class Fridays we have a 9:30 a.m. and a 10:45 there's a tremendous variability in your schedule how do you communicate how do I communicate with through email so when they when they register for for a semester as we call them it shows the dates and The Times They know exactly what they're signing up for and when they sign up are they they're not just signing up for a oneoff one day activity you call it a semester how exactly does that work the majority of people that come to class sign up for if we're running a six- week semester they'll sign up for all six weeks we do offer dropin as well so we have we will have people who can only make it to one class in those six wees majority of people come for the whole semester Mr s very clear to me that the applicant was sensitive to the intensity of the uses around him and that the testimony has clearly intended to help the board understand why it works I did not find the explanation of when the classes were to be clear to me and my concern is that an approval is either an approval and there's no constraints this because there's no regulations that I understand so I I don't know what would stop the applicant and and and I'm not interested in in putting some cap on her ability to be successful what I'm interested in is somehow trying to understand how those conflicts will continuously be avoided and I recognize informality is working for now but it's very difficult for a board that is as formal as we are because our resolutions all the way back to 1993 eventually come back to Future boards to interpret how is it that we make sure that the proposal reasonable avoiding conflict remains reasonable and avoids conflicts well we could agree to conditions that there would be a half an hour space between classes and by doing that you ensure the outgoing people have left before the incoming people have arrived okay and we could agree to a condition that um the classes would not take place during church Services what about the Metal Flow classes I mean you never have a conflict with a metal flower class drop off pick up it can be pretty chaotic correct and like a k will do Olympics or like a Halloween parade and I'll get an email about it and I make sure all my parents know so there's never been an issue with metal so obviously we would also probably condition that classes do place during the time when metal flower was head is that is that compatible with sorry so the question the question condition that that you don't act during church services I mean for me the church service is secondary it's really the metal FL is more intense use than than the churches uh given the days that you do you operate at the same time as the nursery school ever uh yes you do and and when so tell us about those days so metal flower also has varying start time so they have like an 8:30 drop off some days at 9 o'clock sometimes 11 o'clock pickup some kids stay until 12:30 so sometimes um during drop off my class might start start 15 minutes later and there's still a few of metal flower know parents in the parking lot um that parking lot gets pretty full Metal Flow and you're saying that you never have that that caregiver class while the Metal Flow drop off pickup is I do but there's never a lack of parking so if if that if there's a lot of metal you're taking up 20 spaces out of 40 there and there's no problem with the metal FL so there are a lot of metal flower parents dropping off my parents will park up in the public parking bravel lots so we've talked about the parking but we haven't talked about the way this site Works in reality and I assume everybody here is from Fair Haven and everybody knows that this is both a parking lot and a road anyone who's had their kids in metlow know that those kids come out of that building go into that striped area they walk into a very specific gate and they do not cross that parking L as I'm understanding your operation your kids are doing different things and going to different places the conflict of all that stuff happening is a serious concern coming into the to the meeting tonight a way to avoid a conflict is my times will not conflict with drop off or pick up at metap file which is a set time for a for a particular semester it won't conflict with I I don't know how to do it frankly because the way you're doing it now is informal and I get it but I I I'm I'm struggling with how to make sure that it isn't as much parking that I'm concerned about you don't even come close to meeting the parking requirements but but it's all those little kids have to move around in and as much as there's signs that say that this is not a drive-thru and it's not a road it's a road and well all of us have read that sign all of us use it as a road and so kids are little and and I'm just trying to understand where they are and how we're keeping them safe it's the number one issue so this is really important we have to come up with with something that we can keep it as it is and avoid those conflicts but in writing so there is a gravel path from the gravel lot so they can avoid the lot totally totally and so they can walk the gravel path that goes along the tennis courts and then there's an opening right next to sticks and sprats so they would they pop in right where my entrance 20 of the spots here are in the middle of that parking lot and and people are driving through as they do and as they will your kids and their parents have to cross that area that people are driving through whether they're allowed to or not I think that's the concern not a gravel path correct from your fence to that center of the of the parking lot the majority of parking is it's how almost every school operates right you have to park and then walk your child to the school entrance or in this case the sticks and Sprouts I've done it a lot yeah it's it's in the past but I used to park and I don't like that parking lot to get to Meadow flight to get to you is the same and we don't take the kids or we didn't take the kids directly to the play area the issue is the number of cars the number of kids and the ability to keep it managed and so that's the reason why it matters to me I don't know what everybody else thinks with regard to the intensity of the use of the parking lot while you're there with kids to her point I think You' run into that everywhere my son went to G and Sh sh Pi Falls and it was parking lot but it was C and cars would fly through there when I don't know the name of the other daycare center in town which is across the street from boero that parking lot in the morning driving through it yeah the few times that I stop to get a coffee or something in the park overo I run over to boero I mean that's just the nature of the Beast unless you have a private parking lot which I don't think anyone really does even picking my son up at bu cross which is a private par parking that's well well well hold on you're talking about a site that has no restroom facilities and you're talking about a site that actively moves beyond the fence to other areas that are public spaces you can be comfortable with the idea that it's going to work itself out that's fine but to the extent that the testimony is it's working because I'm not conflicting with this I'm not conf conflicting with that that doesn't go into a resolution it can't be it's not enforceable to the extent that you want the board to understand that that's what's going to happen I'm trying to understand parameters it sounds like Mr canella May well be okay to the extent that it's I I'm just saying it is a reality I think everywhere you go and even as I just said private parking lot fully cross I mean it it gets hairy and there sometimes and we we're fling out into the street the other thing I would like to ask is I've noticed how many you know what I'm not even going to bring it up because we're going to get somewhere else but hold that hold that I I have a question you know you seem like you have things pretty well organized who's your backup who steps in if you're not there I cancel class I think I've had one sick day in two years so um but it's just it's me I I notice on the site plan that there's a dwelling there is that part of the church is that a private house that's the pastor as it's part of the church property but but don't you want a situation where this thing can can survive you I mean if if you know God forbid you know you get sick or something like that and you're not there uh who covers you I don't know what would happen if I got I mean if I was injured I wouldn't run classes um the caregivers are all there so if I were to you know get hurt during a class all the parents are there with children and then during the drop off classes I have two other teachers with me so you're just asking longterm I think he's saying business continuity standpoint you look for someone to replace scale VAR variance is long it's one person she is you are you are the business but you know I'm just excuse me we can't we can't approve a variance to uh you know that that doesn't doesn't look little bit past you how is that different from any other so proprietor I mean really I'll tell you what let's just put a pin in that let's quick question the the the permitting from Fair Haven or R par the Parks and Rec Department Parks and Rec Department you still get those permits I have one right now so is it an ongoing permit or is it a daily permit every semester I submit a the it's the same paperwork every time but whatever the class time is I write it down I send it to the pro W department they approve it at the end of the semester I send in a check and then I send in new dates for my next semester so that's that's the kind of thing I'm looking for so when when they get it are they looking for conflicts are they avoiding you scheduling something when the Baseball opening day is for example so uh yeah so on my last permit I needed um I was adding a a Friday class and I contacted the park re department and they said we have someone else in the using the trails that day um how many kids will you have and I said six and they said go ahead so they are checking for conflicts okay I from rugby I know that they we have very specific weekends that we can use very specific weekends we can't use based on usage of the fields so parks and recs control certain things with regard to whether Peninsula is going to play there whether or not they're scheduled Rec games and and all that kind of stuff the church has a schedule that's that's you know but then the church allows the Boy Scouts to be there for the pinewood derby and then randomly out of nowhere you wind up with 30 cars in the park and lock that building those are the conflicts that that I'm interested in understanding but I'm going to put that to the side Mr Assad I want to point out that it is uh 9:40 um you know we have about an hour left um I don't like when people come out to a meeting and don't get a chance to speak and so I don't know exactly where we're going from here but I want to leave enough time I I suspect I know what what a lot of people want to convey and and but I want them to be able to do that concisely so I I don't want to run out of time for that it would also be great to be able to try and get done so where are we if well I mean unless I mean the board has asked a lot of very good questions and uh I'm finished with the questions that I was plann to ask this witness we have a professional planner here who tells me he has uh brief amount of testimony um probably with fewer questions uh but I don't know that um and obviously the people in the crowd um if we could maybe a lot about 10 to 15 minutes so that Mr Higgins can testify um lay down the professional planning testimony and perhaps there would be plenty of time left for all of the people who attended tonight okay so we have a sense of what we have for time so go where you want to go next okay Mr chairman can I ask a question yeah I assume they both want a question about the site plan with respect that the gring sure and I don't know have you been out to the site after a rainfall I have not now so M I know you said you cancel if there's uh below 20 degrees do you cancel for heavy rains yeah so we cancel for flooding so okay did you or like uh when when speeds are above a certain speed and that's conict to the parents email we got two the rain site and text just to make sure they all get it and did you do any grading work for the site when you took over the release I had the soil tested okay you know I've walked past a few times I know that they will FL pretty considerably after having rains I Know M is part of the business plan but just curious it works respect to the site okay next witness okay [Music] previous thank you okay Mr Higgins you were sworn in correct yes that's correct okay can you Enlighten the board as to your education experience first for the record my name is James Higgins hi GG i ns I'm licensed professional planner I've been licensed for approximately 45 years I have been recognized by this board in the past as an expert in the field of planning I've been recognized by Superior Courts in five counties in the state and by the state supreme court as an expert in the field of planning and I've been the township ocean planner for approximately the last 40 years like to offer Mr Higgins as an expert any questions about Mr P credentials no you are you a license planer I licensed and my license is currect do you have any other uh um licenses outside of planning no I don't I was licensed ascape architect but I let that lasts we accept thank you Mr hiin did you perform a study um in connection with this application as to whether or not the use variance being applied for is Justified yes I I looked at the application I looked at the ordinance I visited the site I visited the site during one of the more intensive uh class classes we've had the parents and and Guardians with the children that was today um there were approximately 20 there at the site 20 parents and children there at the site today when I visited it and I was also there during the period when the between two sessions noticed that the the parents did leave completely and that the parking was absolutely almost totally empty before the next class came in what time of day was it that was this morning that was this morning I was there at 9:30 when I think 9:45 is when the class let out and then the next class was going to start at at 10:15 um the site uh I'm sure the board members are all familiar with the site it's it's it's occupied by the church and also occupied by the daycare facility and there's a telecommunications on it um the portion portion to be occupied by this use is a small fenon portion of the site and to one side of it you have an active Municipal Park to the other side you have the daycare playground to the South you have the parking lot for the church and to the north you have the the pastor residents of the church um the overall the site is surrounded on three sides by public part Parkland and on the fourth side there's a small section where there's some residences U when I looked at this I do think there are special reasons for the graning of the varant uh first of all uh the real standard in this case is whether or not the general welfare is Advanced due to the particularly suitability of the site for the use and I think the general welfare itself is Advanced by the nature of the use which provides for a uh emotional educational and an outdoor experience that as the applicant has said affects the emotional wellbe beinging of the children that are involved it encourages outdoor activity and environmental stewardship among the youth so I think there's a definite benefit there in addition it's a recreational use and recreational uses are considered also to be beneficial and again not to confuse this I don't think this Rises to the level of being inherent is beneficial for definitely a beneficial use and then when you look at the fact that the site is particularly suited for the use and that first of all it's at a church and while this use is not technically a daycare use it has many of the attributes of daycare including a recre outdoor recreational use and daycare uses are typically associated with churches as as with this church we do have a nursery school at the church uh and there are many other churches that also have daycare type uses and many other many churches also have recreational uses associated with them that are not directly related to the church operation but do function as a accessory use and association with the church operation so I think having having this use on the site is beneficial you got surrounding uses and uses on the site that are compatible what with with the use of being proposed so I think the general welfare is Advanced due to the particular suitability of the site for the use in addition I think it's important to note that there are is no need for permanent structures associated with this use on the site you do have the the two sheds that are there that are used in part but they're not permanent structures and there's no need for any impervious surfaces to be constructed on the site for this use either everything is perious so when I look that I really think the site is particularly suited for the use when I look at the zoning of the site the zoning of the site is R40 and in fact the church site is the only site in the zone so an R 40 residential Zone the only use for this this AR 40 zone is the church itself uh so that I don't think by having this use which is essentially an accessory type use to the church while it's not not functional related to the church it's the type of use that would be considered accessory to the to the church so I think it's not a conflict with your zoning ordinance um it's a unique use that when the governing body was was developing the ordinance would not have considered I when I heard about this I I have never in my 45 years heard of a use such as this it is unique it does has some aspects of what would be daycare and Child Care Facility but is not a daycare or Child Care Facility it's very short term and it's strictly outdoor recreation and education um so I don't think there's any substantial impact on your Zone plan or your zoning ordinance I don't think there's any substantial impact on surrounding properties particular this portion of the site is completely isolated from surrounding uses it's it's within the within the site it's adjacent to an active Recreation use public recreational use so I don't have any substantial impact on the surrounding properties U when I look at all this I really think that this there's special reasons for the granting of the variance I think the general welfare is Advanced due to the particular suitability of the site and there is no substantial negative impact either your Zone plan or surrounding properties is Metal Flow in a different Zone what's that is Metal Flow in a different zone no metal flowers is on the church side what's the difference between between what this is accomplishing and what metlow is accomplishing and why is there a need for a use VAR what there's it's not so much a need well there is a need for for this use and if you have a question about the need for theuse I think you need to look behind me there all these people he's asking VAR there's the particular suitability of the site advances the general welfare I understand sir is your question why was a use variance required for this application exactly why is this different than metal CL we're not it's not that different it's it's not it isn't that different than metal flowers but it's a new use that's being added to the site and while it's I think it fits your definition accessory use in your ordinance the land way the land use law is uh is structured and I'm I'm sorry I apologize I misunderstood your initial question but the way the land use law is structured it doesn't say you need a d variance for a principal use and a principal structure it says if you if you provide propos a use a use that's not permitted that could be principle or accessory or a principal structure then you need a D1 variant so because this is an accessory use but it's not specifically permitted and it's a new use that's being added to the site you would need the D1 Vari you keep saying accessory but it's not actually accessory to the church it's totally you have to saying it's functioning like an accessory what I'm saying is when you read your definition of accessory use in the ordinance this is an accessory use did explain that to did metlow get a d variant I have no idea I don't I don't researched the entire zoning file and I didn't find anything on medic Dr laer I want to make sure that you have a clear answer to your question meflow is a nursery school and meflow has a playground the playground is used by the nursery school during certain times of the day they have a structure inside the building where they use the exterior of the building as part of it this is independent in terms of the entity the operation the business structure from metlow and the church and they are independent of all of those improvements they only exist within the fence area and then outside of the fen area with a permit from the burrow and and a further distinction is that Meadow flow is licensed therefore it falls under the category of being an inherit and beneficial use and this use is not licensed so it doesn't fall under that category that's right it's really a technical use S thank you for that clarification I what understand with the inherent inherent inherently beneficial use is the use it by its very nature advances the general welfare and it rises to the level of being that is it reason in and of itself you don't have to provide particular suitability so that establishes a portion of the criteria needed to be established in order to Grant a Vance that's correct right but we don't this is the the applicant use is not an inherent I just didn't otherwise criteria so I I know that you have probably some planning things to talk about perhaps while Mr Higgins is is is at the the table desk thing you can run through the things that you were uh thinking before you came in and maybe kind of what you're thinking now at this point in the [Music] testony uh Don Miller for the record um so I I agree with Mr Hagen's testimony um I I have been curious to understand better again now that I have the testimony of the applicant how does this use like what is this use how does it how is it distinguished from metal flowers how is it distinguished from what we would normally consider you know these other um types of community um uses that occur within Church facilities and so it it is distinctly different it is not as we've said an entity of of the Church theity of meow flowers um it's not actually a school at least as far as State Licensing concerns um I almost feel like you know in in the table of uses we we permit plal parks and playgrounds as principal uses in the r 40 and that presumes again this governmental activity and what sticks and Sprouts actually started out is a private um operation of events in in a public playground and park she was using the trail to do some of these activities in an organized fashion much in the same way you know scouts or or the other organizations would get an occasional event permit right to use a playground right so you know it's true we we don't really have a classification in ordinance that we can put this neatly into a box and say yeah it is this and it's parking requirement is X and we can quantify all of those negatives so um It's Tricky but uh you know and again hearing the concerns of the board um you know I agree there there are issues with this overlapping of the parking and making sure that there's some sort of way to control the negatives how do you know there's nothing in the ordinance that makes it possible for COD enforcement to really be able to say C cut I can see you this is not how it should happen we have to have a triggering event for somebody to come out and make a violation once things have gotten to proportions that are not acceptable is when we're going to find out and the board wants to avoid that naturally so um I you know I'm not sure what to recommend necessarily as far as mechanisms but I think there is a perhaps subis testimony and maybe through comments uh by the by the public we will hear more um of the sort of natural controls um the the assistance of parks and W providing controls as far as the scheduling and the issuing of permits but um I I do believe at least this part of the planning testimony we've satisfied the positive and negative criteria what about so let's start at the beginning right we're trying to find a good place for this the two concerns that are jump off the page is the through traffic number one and the proximity I mean you're talking feet from where the drive aisle is um and in addition to that no restroom facilities at all no no line phone no way to call for an emergency like from a planning perspective what are those issues to you and what should they mean to us so so again if if she weren't on the private property those aren't concerns right she was doing all these activities as permitted by the burrow yeah in the Park yeah class the classes are short so the idea the restroom facilities is is a little less intensively important I think it's different so so the one thing is when you're going to go to the burrow and you're going to say I'm going to use it on Friday and the bure's got a schedule and they know who else is there they're going to eliminate the conflict the minute you do it independent of them you lose the ability to do that entirely if she's getting permits to be offsite it's covered to an extent but it doesn't address the parkings but exactly because she's relying on she's got public facilities to accommodate conflict with her overlap schedule but if you're in the park the restroom facilities are at the park to the extent that we're only within the fen in area there is no restroom facility that's directly accessible and the distance that needs to be traveled requires somebody to go with a kid of this age that they would need to get over there I'm not look I'm not trying to find a reason to not find a way to be okay with this right so Herm mitigating factor is they're going to go to their own car and is squatting potties or they have diapers or and have changing facilities with their their cars and I think that that is a normal consideration for young young kids in the outdoor environment I mean that's what we're talking about too this is an outdoor facility it's not um you know it's not a classroom it's not a building it's not right but as you lay classes in it changes right if we're doing two a day and they're spread out and 45 minutes a piece it's one thing if if an approval from the board without restraints means you can do eight hours a day five hours a five five days a week or or six or whatever it it changes and again we don't have anything in the ordinance that says they need to provide rest facilities there's nothing even if she were doing it on the an apartment that she provide rest rest facilities I because it's not permitted use you don't design an entire exactly exactly so the mitigating factor is isn't enough that she you know parents use their cars or whatever um I as a plan consideration I you know even even like a conditional use when we do um you know the church itself is a conditional use right we don't have a condition that says you need to make sure there's sufficient rest facilities so well that's built in I I take it well you rely on the building code yeah for that can no corresponding code can I is sure is you have two types of classes you have the classes with the adults there the the caregivers so if a child has to go to the bathroom he can be he or she can be ACC company by the parent or the guardian y so that's there's not an issue there the other classes are the drop off where there are a very few number relatively few number of children and three instructors instructors so one of those children has to go to the bathroom again an instructor can take that child and you still have two instructors on the site supervising yeah but I think the concern is where are they taking them into the church I would think well they're not allowed in the church only she's allowed in the church only the operator is well what we know is we don't know what's in the lease it would certainly make sense that they had access but we've heard no testimony that and the public restrooms at Bar Haven fields are locked sometimes they're not always open work or those that are have character leers there for the four to eight to the extent that they need use as a non they don't have someone to go child say I have dogs that you know I'm only tangentially aware of other options for yeah okay okay Mr Rizzo um you've got some engineering analysis with regard to where we are where are the holes from your side that we need to cover while Mr Higgins is up things that remain um kind of touched on it but the the whole drop off and pick up operation how that takes place especially if someone's not parking a vehicle I guess frequency location safety of that um the sign we kind of touched on but I think we need to make sure that we actually formally get a sign permit actually um I did oh sorry Donna Miller I there is a section of the ordinance that says um schools churches hospitals or similar institutions clubs and lodges are permitted assign of 35 sare ft in total area we haven't been asked to approve a I'm just suggesting that there may be a provision in the ordinance that permits the sign and it appears to be similarly sized to what would be permitted we not being asked okay can we amend the we'd like to amend the application to include what's the data on sign how B is it no similarly for the fences the fences uh are exempt from the pering process That's 37.25 A what 3725a permits decorative fences used around Gardens Etc it's certainly designed to keep the kids in okay um and and frankly we haven't been asked to okay the fense I I mean I understood you to be asking for an approval with regard to the use and and my assumption at the beginning was that you're going to go to the burrow with regard to that defense isn't a big deal okay it's not a big deal because you're inside of the property you're not in front yard sidey yards but you got to work that out its own it only makes sense obviously with the vents I don't understand the purpose of the sign it's obviously nice to have a sign but there are standards for signs um and and we're not we haven't been asked to approve a sign F I do have uh something to add um the uh pastor of the church is actually here tonight and I had an opportunity to speak with him we can make a condition of any approval that I provide a copy of a lease oh that already is in read that will uh include the the right of the applicant to use the bathrooms for all of our students for students yeah so so I'm going to make a suggestion the the playground for Meadow flower has a pathway to the building that is distinct it is it is rigidly followed by the teachers the kids are holding hands they're all moving there should be an access walkway that people become aware of that is designed to take the kids to the church if that's where they're going to the bathroom I think it's an improvement but I think that comes with sort of a a a structure to it and obviously that would be better than not uh Mr Rizo you had a question with regard to drop off and and whatnot and Mr what can you offer Mr Rizzo by way of questions how is uh pick up and drop off work for the the older students will you have Emily come back in I guess where is the gate or gates to the defense um how long do cars sit there for do they the parents usually park in the parking lot wait for their St their child or do they leave them back for the drop off classes um some parents will wait uh the drop off class are all after school hours the parking lot is empty um and about half more than half parents will drop off and leave for drop off the they walk the child to the gate there's a teacher waiting at the gate to let them in and at dismissal they are called one by one when you see their carger do you see uh I guess a large number of cars all plucked at the same time along the the drive aisle next to the gate trying to drop off at the same time yeah because there's only 10 to 12 students in a drop off class and there's 40 parking spaces so there's always planing space do the parents always Park and bring kids to the gate or do they literally drop off their GS the they get out of the car car walk with their child to the gate a teacher greets them and then they them in so I think we can maybe recommend a condition um a sign along the lines of no uh no drop off in the drive aisle just for safety reasons um to ensure that everyone Parks their vehicle and you know gets out of the vehicle and Safeway and that's what currently do you have a sign there or there's not a sign but that's what the where would that sign go so you have um 15ot Dy I'd say just you know next to the speed BM reference where did the directional arrows come from that on the sine do they exist in the parking lot yes they're not observed the problem is there's not a single person that would drive up and around and then take the right onto the driveway to exit out to marter what I do and I assume most people do is if there's no cars they're driving straight through the parking spaces and if there are cars they're actually coming straight to you and then they're coming against that arrow and then they're taking a left we need to be thoughtful about what we're talking about because it can get out of control in terms of what you're trying to do you just need to think of through even the even the crosswalk that I'm talking about isn't easy as I look at it it it's got to be thought about and and while access to the bathroom I think is good I think it's good for everyone it if it's not practical then we're just just talking um and I don't think that's to anybody's benefit so there's always a adult with a child so it's you know like any other parking lot where you have to watch the child for you know you go to a Target parking lot or the acne parking lot is crazy right like you have to watch your child and you have to walk through cars cars are coming through to go to dunk Donuts or whatnot so it's like any other and Metal Flow is different because they empty out and they're doing 20 30 40 kids there's limited teachers and so as a result they're all connected and they're all in a very specific place and what you're identifying is a difference in the way that do it you're putting an instructor with a child and they're going to do it differently than a class F from as far as getting to the bathroom is concerned and with regard to a sign as to drop off it it doesn't matter there's a sign that says Don't drop through everybody ignores it they're parking SPAC is there so if they're filled it's it's a road effectively at times so you know we shouldn't just suggest a sign because it feels good to suggest a sign if there's if there's an issue with how it works we should be thinking about whether or not there's a way to make it better and safer um but I don't think a sign doesn't can it not be a condition that she can't have roll in drop off sign require I I I I think that to the extent that we're going to try and create some parameters around what we understand this debate and the the basis on which granting an approval I think we should I think there's a lot of stuff that we talked about and I think that we need to be mindful of putting constraints on this that are unnecessary I think I think I still didn't get an answer that I like but I think that controlling the negatives I think is what Donna said is is kind of the the the broad reaching thing that we're trying to do but what we're really doing is you're shooting the gaps right you're finding the times when it works and you're there at times when it doesn't disrupt and the question is how to regulate that look an approval runs with your business so everybody in town has come to know you through this process but you can sell right there can be other operators and whatever we do and whatever we write down needs to control not only you in this operation but any future user and their ability to do it um and that's and that's complicated when kids are involved and I I think all the discussion has been really good and you explaining to us how it works and I think the issue is trying to figure out how to craft a structure to this that we can make sure that that's what it always is and and I don't I don't have all the answers for myself to figure that out at this moment I know we need to hear from from all the from all the friends and residents better deer um but I I'm not quite sure how we do that tonight um unless maybe Mr you have some ideas well I can't design a site plan up here of course um but one thing that I've done with many boards in the past is uh during compliance review we could provide certain detail to the satisfaction of board's engineer and two Engineers work things out and I'm sure you've done that before as well um so if the board were inclined to take action favorable action this evening um surely that could be um a condition of approval that as to let's say drop off and as to a path between the uh Fon area and the existing well I'm looking at the existing pathway and maybe tying into that or coming up with some other solution to get from the fenon area to the to the church building um but these could be conditions of approval that we satisfy the board's engineer uh in those respects is there is there a reason it wasn't built closer to the church to begin with sticks and threats yeah I mean it would seem to me unless I know I can't see if there's anything on here right but if you were to move this to the short side of the parking lot and I'm not suggesting you do it but I'm that would alleviate a lot of problem where meal flowers playground is okay all right understood there is maybe one in 60 children who use the bathroom during like right if we're running three classes of 20 kids there's maybe one in 60 that goes to use the restroom it's only a 45 minute class I'm not sure given that it's one instructor taking a child to the bathroom that we really need a specific path I I say it's a parking lot you take your kid in the parking lot I mean if you I it might be simple as putting cones out you know and I think CO's blocking the first spot right the first two spots there's never any cars there anyway but I can so there's two spots than sh on here I can move the con that's which which spots are you referring to uh right at my front gate I I don't see where the front gate is it's the corner furthest from metal flower closest to the the parking lot so the so the triangle cross-hatched area you you you block off those two spots oh they're in so you see where the sheds are yeah um so there's not even I'm sorry there's not a spot there but you see how there's room in the parking lot there's like a tree that there's like branches so you can't even really park there but I put CES there just in case for what because that's the front gate so if there was a car there it would just like it would block the entrance it's just like an empty corner of the so it's not a striped parking space but it's a area that you might foresee someone trying to pause yes right to the best of my memory there's not a white line there and and you don't do any rolling drop off so there's no need to have a place where a car can stop a door can open and a kid can safely exit the vehicle and get to your fence that that doesn't exist that doesn't exist okay they're coming into a parking space they're parking in a parking space coming out of walking so Mr Rizzo with regard to the drop off stuff does that does that satisfy your concerns about drop offs it doesn't because my concern is more so safety and um you can probably only F two cars uh through that drive aisle um pretty tight and um if there's one dropping off in One Direction one in the other now the whole thing's blocked off there's you know need for any emergency vehicles to go by that creates an issue no everyone no one drops off like that everyone Pars in a parking spot yeah that's what I want to understand if everybody's parking in a parking spot and a parent is taking the child to the fence that doesn't you to drop off concern that that does so long as that's that's followed okay so to the extent that that's the way it works to the extent that that's not an interruption to the way that you're functioning then we can simply condition that specifically in the resolution as to the way the kids get from a car to your fence what what would you want to do with regard to the bathroom so we we've we've thrown it around a little bit getting access is spr would you want to try to create a crosswalk and something else or do you think that having a a an instructor with a child is is adequate to get them from A to B so for the past two years it's been adequate and and very safe if to get past I need a crosswalk I'll do it but I don't I I care about the children immensely he one of my number one things too and I don't see it concerning I think the broader issue is whether or not you're there at a time when other people are there for other reasons to the extent that you're shooting the Gap and you're there when no one else is there I can see it working and and to me that's what I'm much more concerned about is making sure that when you're there and operating that you're not conflicting with other users and what I'm specifically focused on is drop off for Metal Flow pick up for metlow they have special events at metlow they run a parade through here on occasion and I know you wouldn't but in order to put into a resolution that you can with regard to other sporting events and things at the field Church events to me if we're only in these limited Windows where there's a limited use of a parking you're your your your inadequate parking becomes less of an issue and your ability to get a kid from A to B becomes less of an issue but I'm still not understanding how we're going to tie that on yeah you know and metal flower isn't here right now to tell us what their schedule is going to be and I believe that varies a little bit um so you want to say something can you condition it on her monthly meeting with the other users of the parking lot and and ensuring that there's no the church or church ass the lease is held by or the leases with the church or with the school with the church so why don't we do this okay why don't we if you'd like to present testimony from the the pastor did you say um and then why don't we hear from the public um and then and then why don't you take a little time to listen and and maybe and and then we'll Contin s sh I do have a few more things but I or if you want no no no let's do them now please um talked about lighting a little bit I kind of got the impression that classes would only be during the day hours so I can get rid of that class say recommend study of existing more lights but night class no night class so are we going to specify operating hours mam like at least the beginning and end some down just like the par there's going to be a lot piece together okay and so I I I agree that removing any idea of having kids here at dusk or dark creates a greater sense of comfort that kids moving from ad to be won't become a danger what else H quick one is being that your testimony is at the dwelling here is the pastor's house you don't see any need to buffer that residential use from your operation is there any buffer there now you think they need it um the pastor is here I don't think we bother them but maybe you can that there are trees between there's trees they have a large backyard a decent amount back of the house do you have any Ada parking uh there are one or two spots in that do you agree to bring it into compliance you need two spaces for 40 total I have to ask jerk but I mean it's it's the church needs the overall site needs to meet as a national requirement yeah this this this site has been reviewed at least three times in its so um if it I'm sure that same question was asked in the previous editions of this and how would you be sure councel well yeah well hold on Mr Rizo are you suggesting that the Bo doesn't have discretion to say that the use of the parking lot as it's currently striped and configured with regard to handicap spaces it is not within our purview are you saying it's required from on high to us well this is a s plan application and um you know it's an ADA requirement to provide handicap spaces so this is the opportunity to make sure that possible non-compliance site is brought into compliance with that standard that's is that compliant for this use or for any use on for the property one propert it's based on a number of parking spaces not by the use then wouldn't it fall under the church and not sticks and Sprouts to make that accommodation well they are using the site they using the parking spaces how many handicap spaces are required in a 20 there's I think there's two can I ask well not if I don't have a person under if we want to bring the person you want to bring that person forward let's get through any more questions for first um you'll agree to all the performance standards the ordinance as far as noise yeah riew those I mean most of it doesn't really apply here but yes and then are there any outside agencies or you strictly just come with this approval other than those that you discussed in the earlier part you know if you needd no the testimony was that nothing else nothing else thank you you had said that you tested the soil kind of in another discussion you tested the soil because you wanted to test the soil and you know that for daycare facilities that's done you didn't do that because any of any outside obligation correct as test for contaminants it's clean and that be added to the record no but the test I mean the results of the test I mean we're we're asking for other things that are it's not a licing not be that that we don't have in hand today do I'm just asking do do you have that paper still uh it's probably my email yeah okay um okay you're good not okay so um Mr I'd like to open to the public just one question our engineer go ahe was the reason you were asking for the buffer was because there's a residence corre and this is this is a commercialy to the is there any concern that to the extent that that hasn't been done with the nursery or any of is or is it just one we just into compliance because there's I just want to ensure that this use for you for the board tonight um provides adequate buffer to any use around it that would need resal use in this case it was residential use on the plan I'm sure we'll about to hear testimony that you know no additional buffer um is needed or or that it is needed and you make that a condition okay I just wanted to understand why you asking thank that dwelling is church property as well I don't know [Music] Mr did you want to put the pastor on I think it would only be brief if uh we could do that now would you please I'm callid the whole I do thank you very much St your name spell your please David shoeer s c h u m a c h e r Mr shoeer how are you associated with this property I'm the pastor for Christ Church okay and uh as the pastor for the church are you also authorized and Duty bound to manage the facility as it relates to tenants and other matters yes I am okay and do are you familiar with this dwelling that is that I'm pointing to on survey and it's labeled dwelling over here near mcarter Avenue yeah that's my home that's your home and uh that's where you reside yes and are you familiar with the the sticks and Sprouts operation yes and how has that affected you in in your residential activities dwelling in any way no no in fact it's actually made it more enjoyable to look out the back window and what is in between is there any plants or other buffering in between the dwelling and and sticks and Sprouts area here yeah there's some natural growth in between us um and a couple of treats um do you feel that it is necessary to increase the amount of buffering that's already there no okay um and I'll I'll just ask a quick question about the church bathroom um in earlier in this hearing I I came up and represented to the board that I spoke with you and that um you confirmed that the lease could be modified so that sticks and Sprouts would have the right to bring a child into uh the church to use the bathroom at me Rose yeah certainly do that okay um I don't have any other questions for Mr Sher um what about are you aware of how many handicapped parking spaces there are in your parking lot it's my best recollection I think there's one so obviously we'll take the recommendation to make sure that they're more loed out um just keep in mind that um within Ada space you need an access aisle next to it so we want to make sure that we don't eliminate another space to provide a strike ACC as yeah so we're really open to the can of worms there I I think that we need to discuss it I think that we can accept the representation that to the extent necessary that the spaces be accomodated did I did I misse no I don't think you so let us the lease that we've discussed yes what's the lease term uh it's actually it's an annual lease okay annually renew what does the lease involve in terms of this applicant's use of the property at present I know you I know you said in the future no problem using laboratory facilities but what do they have the operational use of people to your recollection if you do it's not expensive they have access to that portion of the property uh of the Cur property um and to the use of that's already defined by this school you know by the program itself okay does at least include the use of the shed yes it does okay does and the use of the parment yeah yes okay yeah and we haven't talked about it but I would assume that what we're talking about is this particular user this particular location for so long as they have the right to use this property pursuing to a lease agreement such that to the extent that this lease agreement would expire that there would be a cation of this use so much a comment for you but more that I'm trying to put some guardrails around what we're talking about so as to not accidentally create an opening for something different okay thank you okay thanks all right so at this time I'm going to invite um anyone that has any comments or questions with regard to the sticks and Sprouts application to step forward um we've got a share for you there we're going to ask you to speak your name give your address and um Mr Kat is going to SAR you in so you can either move up one by one there you go it's not going to be many of us Consolidated okay to save your time may I ask you to you saw testimony whole spell your last name for a n TT o n n thank you um 92 bat um I am a lifelong fa resident happily and I a mother of a three-year-old and a one-year-old semiha happily sometimes um I'm here to speak tonight on behalf of Emily and sticks and Sprouts the wonderful business she has created here in FA Haven sticks and spots as you've learned tonight provides a unique exploratory outdoor play environment for all kids rain shine snow Emily has designed the area to cater to the imagination of every child that attends she builds engages she plays she reads she sings she dances she does it all she pours 100% of her attention and heart into her job every single class by the time class is over your child has likely offered you a bowl of mud soup from the state-of-the-art outdoor kitchen which you always politely decline they have spent one full hour safely creating and playing outside in the fresh air insulated away from main roads interacting with kids of all ages thanks to Emily we are all attending tonight because it is incumbent upon residents to Rally behind our small businesses to create a supportive environment that Fosters their growth and resilience especially one that benefits our children by granting this resoning request we're not just opening the door to economic expansion right here in our town we're investing in our future and preserving the magic that makes Fair Haven truly special and that magic is that we are an outdoor oriented Community our kids independently walk in life to school from a very young age safely 50 years ago we protected 77 Acres of coveted Green Space within our 1.7 square mile of town we're surrounded by walking paths baseball diamonds a bird sanctuary waterways it is within the DNA of Fair Haven to be outside to play outside and to utilize the spaces that were so thoughtfully protected for us and that is what she does she brings kids into these forests she takes out of their comfort zones and she lets them play in the mud there is no better fitting partnership than the one that can be between Fair Haven and sticks and Sprouts Emily belongs here so I ask you to support the resoning of sticks and sprouts and enable Emily to stay and thrive in Fair Haven thank you my name is Al Zager you saw s test get for the board dist yes I do welcome I live at 55 M Carter Avenue from two houses away from sticks and Sprouts I've lived at b dress for over 40 years my sons grew up here went to schools here and one of them lives in Fair Haven in the other side of town um I seen that property for those 40 years I've seen the effort to Hope have a garden here that didn't work because the ground is so wet that stuff would be broke it was unsightly and that site um just was not used in any way that's beneficial when sticks and Sprouts started um and I I should mention that I'm one of those people like U Mr letter that drives through there very frequently virtually every day I drive through there and I see the school the sticks and Sprouts operation from the very beginning I've been amazed at what I see there U not only do the kids play in mud we play in that mud every single season of the year summer fall winter spring the kids are playing Outdoors something that's very needed in our society when Emily um told me that uh she was uh in need of coming here to the board uh frankly I was extremely disappointed if not shocked because I don't see peruse as anything but beneficial not only to Fair Haven but to my particular neighborhood and you know as board members that normally Neighbors come to object to applications and say that it will be detrimental if you prove what's being asked for I'm telling here today to tell you that it would not only be not detrimental it it be extremely beneficial uh this property is next to the town park that Park is very well used by Walkers by soccer players cross players I think U baseball of course with the playground um that public use is wonderful and when sometimes people complain on my street that people useing to park park on our street and block the traffic a little bit I say that's why I live in Fair Haven because it's such a wonderful place with these outdoor recreational opportunities sticks and Sprouts is extremely um comparable to the public par it's right in store and to the U metlow playground that's just on the other side of the d uh as I said I go through there virtually every day there's never a parking problem never and um I understand the board's concern about these technical issues I practiced law for 40 years zoning law I've been before your board many other boards in MTH County I tell you there is not a parking problem the fact that sticks and spr leases that section of the property from the church the church as the landlord has control over the use if the church was lucky enough to have overwhelming use of the church as a church my guess would be that maybe the church would have to say sticks and Sprouts we can't renew the lease because we need departing for the church that's not the case and it's probably not going to be the case in our foreseeable lifetime the church will operate mostly on Sundays sticks and Sprouts operates at other times of the week so it just there isn't a conflict and I've seen that there isn't a conflict I would be extremely disappointed if you don't approve this application thank you Mr from Zager PS would you like to cross-examine Mr Zager good question but I'll rest anyone else no one else come on all intimidating guys okay no we're not you the board of be the truth to hold nothing but the truth yes sir can you spell your last name for us please Nash and is in Nancy a first name Christina and I live at 11 Linden Drive thank you very much um first of all thank you so much for all of your time and giving us the opportunity to speak and support a business that we believe in um as many of us were I was taking notes and and um trying to follow everything that was being said and and asked of our local business owner while I was sitting back there but um a lot of it has been covered but I just I just wanted to make sure that I pointed out as a local parent a Meadow flower parent and a sticks and Sprouts parent and my husband is the um Scouts leader for the the local Scouts group um that it I I mean no disrespect but you you have to realize that um the the team of people here not including the parents have done so so much work and preparation and um to say they've had all their ducks in a row in preparation for these meetings is is um minimizing what they've done but I I feel like many of you up here are not really that familiar with what the business is to begin with and how it is different from other businesses or schools in town um so I just wanted to point out as they mentioned and and touched on the natural play Space um my son first went to a child's place in linro which is roughly 60 to 70% higher in tuition than Meadow flower and their entire business model is based around their natural play period um it's one of the biggest curriculum used in the United States trying to mimic the Scandinavian countries um and I can point specifically to the Scandinavian School Bas in Jersey City that has gotten national attention for their natural play that means outside every day no matter the weather um not lots of Blinky colorful plastic toys it's playing in nature and using mud and that's what Emily's business model does and it's incredibly beneficial one would just need to to Google that to read more I I'm not qualified to speak on on curriculum um but I did just want to point out that that the benefits of natural play and what she is doing is completely different than anything else offered in town and and until a new director at a child's place that was what parents in town were going there to seek out um also as a mediflow parent parking has never ever been a problem because one thing that hasn't been touched on is there is a lot of overlap I am a metlow parent and also a s and Sprouts parent also I I do walk there most of the time as do a lot of people but I have been a metlow parent for three years and a sticks and Sprouts parent for two years and I I have never once had an issue with either parking situations I I didn't quite realize that that was the main topic um that would be addressed tonight but um I I've I felt like I wanted to point out um as you guys were referencing the parking at Meadow flower many years ago um it's just it's not how it was many years ago in fact I don't know that any of you realize that they have had a professional come in and repaint all the Lines within the last 12 months so the parking lot is not what it was when your kids may have gone there um and so I just feel like with all the preparation that the sticks and Sprouts team has done it's clear that that you guys haven't seen the classes in action or gone through the parking lot you would only have to do it once to see like oh this this actually works and it's fine and I don't know if the USA sports groups or the music classes or the other groups that meet in faing fields have to to get the same approvals but I was kind of surprised that the main thing we were discussing was parking spots and bathrooms again my kid goes there and loves it she's 5 years old um she can hold it she's there for an hour it's not it's not a big deal I mean I haven't work at the bathroom yet since I've been here and that's not even talking about marter Park um across the street from CLE school um obviously the kids go there from CLE school for recess but I think we can all agree that there's dozens of children there after school hours when the school is locked to the public and there's no bathroom there but I mean again I tell the kids to hold it like I you know it's fine or go home it's not it's it's not a big deal um but it's I I think you know I I didn't want to get into the emotional um you know my kid is so happy here and and I I started to hear some of that from you guys and and asking her about her business model for it to succeed her after she's long gone that's not what we're here to discuss tonight as as far as I know so I just want to make sure that I includ year um as a parent that's now quite invested in this are are we here just specifically to to um figure out the details around parking in bathrooms or is there something else and just what can we do to make it right but I I would just very politely point out that there's been a lot of preparation done to prepare for all of your questions and your push back but it doesn't seem like many of you have gone through Meadow flower recently um I I have confirmed quite quickly with teachers there that it is four classrooms and one office there's usually about six cars for Meadow flower staff there unfortunately the director of that school couldn't be here to speak on Emily's behalf which she would have and I'm not claiming to speak for her um but some of the questions that you guys had seem to be things that you probably could have found out ahead of this meeting and I would just like to point out that professionalism of the sticks and Sprouts team is very well prepared for all of our questions so thank you very anyone else okay the N Mr quter 11 what you want do well we have no further Witnesses um there's no public com no more public comment and we have agreed on a number of conditions so I think Bo deliberation would come next so we're going to um we'll close but before we close and allow the board to deliberate alone without further involvement interjection tell me what those conditions are that you understand to be on the table and you understand to be acceptable to them conditions you all drop off must be originated from a parking space no night classes [Music] night meaning some After Dawn dwn DUS D eventually gets After Dawn after with me couple of hours uh we provide a copy of belce with the church which does provide bathroom access the site will be rendered 8 a compliant parking space compant parking space parking compant parking app want to do the whole meaning one more handicap parking space would be added um I don't know where we landed with the pathway um we were agreeable to it but I don't know that the board is going to actually require it it was discuss considered um so we would submit uh the idea of not requiring a further crosswalk you heard testimony concerning um trips to the bathroom are very sparing and when they do occur it's supervised with an adult and very very safe um so we would uh submit without um a pathway um from the fenon area to the church no classes would take place while church services are going on now as far as you heard some testimony from um members of the public who uh live this every day and it doesn't sound like um there is a any kind of dangerous situation that occurs uh between Metal Flow and sticks and sprouts and and when uh I guess at some points in some mornings drop offs might be taking place at the same time but it sounds like that is okay um so I wouldn't want to restrict when she can have her classes because that would really really negatively impact that portion as to what your client's going to agree to conditions there may still be more from board I understand um but I'm just addressing something that was discussed but we're not submitting proposing we're not proposing okay and I'm giving you a reason why um I believe that's all the conditions that you agree to provide dimensions for the specific area dimensions for the specific area of course that that's very important because um any expansion on that would theoretically require you to come backck we will we will provide that um and all the other um detail submission details that your engineer recommended on the record we will also comply with that you also agree to um have a 30 minute overlap or gap between between sticks and Sprouts classes well yeah there start right um yeah okay we're good and and Mr K Mr chair um the parking is a design W so that's why we've you know discussed it in length um I think we understand how many parking spaces are there and how that's going to function but the waiver is from how many spaces are required um which we haven't exactly figured out tonight I'm probably going to recommend that the board makers addition condition that we get specific Counts from Council that you have an opportunity to move you I AG so that we understand what's there now and what we're giving the for and then that'll be worked into the resolution resolution no I'm just yeah that's going be worked to that would be time that that would be counts that would be counts for this would be prior to option resolution each one of the uses each one of the uses the calculation so that we can then see what relief we granted because we're putting a lot in that parment so you need those counts and unlike per what people say that's your obligation to do that um so you probably recommend that specific counts each one of the uses there be given so that you know what you need for granting because even if in theory there's not a problem right now at least on paper you documented that this is the need granted so that in the future when someone as Stellar as perhaps this candidate or applicant is not going to be operating that but if that re gets renewed for another candidate that that's going to still be binding this this is somewhat tricky because this is a lease for this area that we're now going to be saying this area has been recognized and approved for this use in this area good question so unlike some other applicants who own the building because this is lease it's different but we would condition this for this specific person only like we have on another that's been for I'm going to have to do some research on that I mean at this point in time if if there because I haven't seen the leavs I don't know if you can when I said tenant or put somebody else out and I would be concerned about that which is why we're trying to put these parameters on there that if it is oper but I I will certainly put that in I certainly don't have a problem I don't want to render an opinion as to what happens down the I would certainly that and the numbers we've done similar things with regard to other applicants that for so long as this use by this applicant right and when they cease to use it then they the relief is is non vo as you know actually it's just one point I wanted to make we all know that the business is great business but we am I delting well we're trying to adjudicate the site and the site support it really is is well that's what you're doing with regard to the D variance remember again the dant that you understand this will help you through other conditions when you deliberate the D variants basically in our zon governing body and developing you know different zones have said it maybe because we didn't see these we didn't understand isues but ours is it's not specifically designated I don't know how you designate this anyway but if it's not specifically designated it's not permitted the reason this board exists for a non permitted use think think of it when everybody suddenly switched from you know pushing movies and suddenly had uh you know online or or some other form we didn't have those you know we didn't have those in our ordin this is something new for us can this site accommodate it if there are issues in accommodating it how can you address those so that that negative criteria will not negatively impact your ordinances will not negatively burden you know this other uses around what do we need to do to make sure that this is compatible on a go forward basis so if there are other things that you think should be conditions I would ask you to do address those by way of the deliberations I don't think there's anything else that we discussed from the applicant at this point okay that off and you good Mr right okay deliberate I'll start continue obviously it's it's it's really can the site support what's going on and um the the Overflow the combination the the meshing of the Metal Flow and the sticks and bl I mean yeah it's it's concerning only for those caregiver stay glasses when there's 20 kids there but is it really a problem it works now I don't know if we were site specific and this use and this use only I don't have a problem with as long as the conditions that Mr son has agreed to no thop I don't think you need a special pth for the bathroom I really young I think it's over k um it's one person with one kid going to the bathroom question parking lot a very small Park lot that um you know no night classes are given and uh the only problem I have is with the the SCH as long as and I think the scheduling thing kind of will it's kind of a natural thing anyway if there's a conflict there'll be a conflict between uh metal flower and six and Sprouts it's not really an external conflict and that'll sort itself out say hey we have classes now you can't have classes okay fine that's my take any plus there's a lot of extra parking in this area that is not shown as right as Mr canel she said Mr kin brought up the gravel area here is huge the driveway here is is used for parking I've seen it used many times in the past so there is additional parking if and when it becomes a problem um and I think the like support yeah and I'd like to follow up on that because um as I mentioned I'm in this area at least three days a week um I walk my dog Through the Fair Haven Fields uh I saw Miss McHugh years ago unloading her truck to go to the little area that she used to run this business out of um it is definitely been a benefit to the community um just seeing the kid there's Miss Nash said there are people walking uh you had past moms with babies and strollers and kids walking to uh this school there has never been an issue with parking um the only issue I've ever come across is I can't park in my preferred spot but there's always which some some days with not but um you know with all of the conditions that are on here and I agree with Mr mzn I don't necessarily think a dedicated Lane is necessary uh you seem very creative if you made a nice little sign that said Hots Crossing be careful or even you could probably go to the police station and give you a pedestrian crossing sign to put in that area um so you know with the beneficial nature of this um you know yes there were some concerns but it's been working um then you know I don't see a need a reason that we should stand in the way of this thing continuing if they you know to some of the requirements that we have so I I I support it obviously any as I said I'm Sor take my time back um any approval would be conditioned on uh you know the things that were stated here before as well as and now just those the damn it floor is yours you know this is such a unique situation and it's such a tremendous public service to the town of fair and for that reason you know you have to figure out a way to make this work I personally don't have a problem with the site plan with all the uh other modifications that have been made in my mind though this works because Miss mchu makes a book and I think the failsafe mechanism in my mind also is the fact that this is a yearly lease and the church is not about to have something going on on their property that they don't approve of and they don't and they don't agree with 100% And I think the fact that the pastor came here today and made some uh some modifications in allowing uh people to use the uh the restroom he's come forward and he said that that this is something that that works for him and works for the community and uh I applaud him for that and and if he's in favor of it and it's on his property I think that really says an off a lot and I think that that that that yearly lease is the fail safe mechanis I'm very in favor I know what I was going to say it would be definitely be limited to six and Sprouts only and we not getting would not be granting a concession for this parcel of land to have it would have to be limited to only this business so drer you suggesting that maybe there' be a restriction as to the length of the the lease like that for some reason the keyword sign a longer term lease would that give you some cause I we have the ability to do I think I think U Mr sh uh stated that this is a year relase I don't I think it's up to him to to modify that I would suggest that you wouldn't have the ability to enforce that I don't think you would right I think it would self-regulate though you know if he had a problem the church had a problem that they would lease yeah if they wanted to say we give you a 5year lease if you're you know willing them F but again it only pertains to his reduced business and and that's why I think this is a failsafe method and I think the church knows what it's doing and I know I think they know who's on their property and I think that they have to be in favor I I agree with you skip um I think it's been I think it's beneficial obviously I appreciate all the neighbors testifying in addition to the pastor um and the discussion about the parking and I forget is this these numbers that you are always looking for are they they're our ordinances aren't they a state requirement guideline so for residents for single family dwellings it's the state it's rsis which is what you're Bu from there heing this is your ordinance because it's it is our ordinance So when you say you know if it's a club or a that's stra out that's that's our orance okay so once we get those numbers specifically we'll know exactly what we are granting a variance for but that's all we just to get that specific number but we do know that there are other there's additional parking in the area that could that's certainly going to be covered on our thatb that's something that alates those issues that's that balances out if you will the fact that there's a lack that we've heard some testimony of the gravel areas that AR specific but available to people to use and fact they use right I also don't have an issue with um the bathroom and needeing the crosswalk and I and I would air on the side of the fewer signs the better I don't I prefer less signs around town so that's just that's where I mean nothing that's been not said already my daughter's gone to sticks and Sprouts not religiously but it's a great thing the community I don't think anyone here debates that it's really wholesome and I think it's you know probably shouldn't have had to get to this point to get here right it would have been better if there was less friction but I think overall it's a great thing and hopefully some of the other stuff can fit into place I would more be in favor of some sort of more structured schedule to avoid some of this but I also don't want to infringe upon her ability to make money and have a successful business and I think that becomes really difficult and then there's the subject enforcement um so I'd be for it you know subject to what we uh discussed said I think the schedule self-regulates between Metal Flow and then BEC a problem with metal plow we be discussion between the two of them yeah and the applicant has minute SK point of the onee lease is the yeah I think the way that that gets articulated is that the the use variance is specific to this particular leasehold interest for so long as this particular Le so interest continues whether that's a year or five year or what have you and also that it be specific to this particular user there's nothing that we heard tonight that isn't specific to the way that M few runs this particular operation and when that's the testimony that has to be tied to what you're doing there's two explicit things that I think are super important first thing is the resolution needs to be very very clear that there is no granting of any particular authority to operate this facility at a this location that's outside of our jurisdiction what we looked at tonight is a site plan and it it I still find it absolutely remarkable in in in a country with so many regulations and a state that has so many regulations and all the rest that there are no regulations but I I I'm I'm I'm taking the applicant and the applicant Council as they were regard to that the resolution in writing should be absolutely clear with to just hold on with regard to the burrow I think you need to go through what these improvements are because I think it's my understanding that there is not a permit fold for an improvement there is not a permit f with regard to the sign um there's no data with regard to the sign um I think that to be ENT that you're looking at a site plan you're looking at a loose site plan um I don't the fense needs to be there there needs to be a fence but at the same time I I don't know why there weren't permits and what they would do by way of an inspection but I would suggest to you that if a normal fence like this would be inspected than it should be with regard to the the sign to the extent that there's a right to have a sign here based on the ordinances I don't know that you all are thinking about this but I would suggest to you that you defer that to the ordin es into the zoning officer into the bur um well you can certainly you can certainly oblig them to confirm that what exists is in conance and if not make it f sign so I I'm I'm not in a position to vote in favor of this application although I'm strongly in favor of the use and the reason is because the reason this works is because we are shooting gaps and it's working because she's making it work the the variance that you grant is is is in ways not moderated unless you build it into the resolution and so to the extent that this becomes a 50-hour week operation or a 30h hour week operation and those things change I I I just I I I think you're taking it on faith and and and I support all of you supporting this but I cannot support not having some brackets around how this is working um and so that that troubles me I think it's entirely possible to get there but the applicant hasn't offered anything I don't think that you need my vote um this is this is a d you need five of seven I will V last um but along the lines of Mr Forte's comment you know that that is that is an issue for me I am okay with with not having a strict path to get to the bathroom but again that's because I'm relying on on shooting the gaps here um this part parking lot does get busy I I I I I know this parking lot and and I recognize that it's working and I'm okay with that I recognize that I'm balance you want it to work I'm okay with that but um there are conflicts between things and and I think that it it it's incumbent on me to to feel as though I can sleep at night knowing that those conflicts won't be created by creating those constraints and I'm okay with everybody else feeling comfortable without that tonight um but that's holding me back oh in the parking spaces just think about the parking spaces because if the new Ada it doesn't matter that it's been restriped they just painted over the old stuff if the parking requirements require 288 spaces with the aisles and the way they do it these days they're probably 10 feet there's probably stripe sections next to them you may wind up with four spaces being taken up with two handicap spaces um that as a practical matter aren't really needed so I'm okay with doing it but just be mindful of what actually may come with that but that's why I was asking about that so is it our ordinances that are going to require that the g to g goes back to that's not specific to our right but if we're she saying how do that integrate into what we're doing here they can't seek a variance or waiver not but we also don't know where could be by the church outside has be located on Theos the issue before was who had the responsibility to the extent that the owner in this instance has consented to his application they can be bound by the conditions that we present in this because in a sense they've said this applicant has my permission to go forward and I will agree to be bound by those conditions so that's how it works so to the extent that if the existing part [Music] have to find way well that was the question I had too is it on the is it on M M to provide to do this is it provide or is it the church's issue that they don't have two space it's it's it's going to be a compliance issue as to how they complying who who ends up funding it has to comply that's that may be that may be a the owner and it's not going our gotta it's not part it's not going in our rec it is going no it is saying the owner is going to be forced to compel based on what I don't know what's in their lease it hasn't been provided if for instance the lease said know you're going to have an obligation to bring these all permits up to anything that you then you know that's going to have to be worked out between the Le land are you an alternate yep you have comments yep um I think that when you consider this you have to take into account that this started as one person and a small group on public land and grew to you know three times a day three days a week three instructors up to 22 children and up to 22 adults and that you can't discount the possibility of that expanding to five days a week more classes a day doesn't make sense to limit yourself if you're a business person I don't think so you got to see that as the potential for this use going forward um concerns me like it does the fact that that's totally unregulated um just because it doesn't fall into a specific definition as a school or as a daycare or as ret retail whatever it is it's it's not you know there's no regulatory agency that has any perview over this just as a comment to add color to that in order to coach they do a background check on I actually had to go to a class right there three hours I mean there appears to be like that that's not on us so no I know but the one thing that I had said before she commented that she had soil testing done I'd love for the results of that to be part of problem this record that it that it met some standard that obviously she's chosen to continue to operate there based on the results I don't see by by put that in the resolution that would make it a condition we'd say well we would only allow because the soil's good but and I don't it was an inde there there's there's one and a half year olds there if it was a a preschool or a daycare there would be a standard that they'd be held to especially if they're playing in the mud does the preschool do do it are they required to do a soil test you can't go a school are they so out Stu I think does I I want to just add with regard to me it isn't a matter of her becoming successful and finding more kids that want to benefit from this program it isn't really a matter of how many classes it's a matter of when those classes come in conflict with the other uses of this parking lot the field right but a lot of this is we're saying that it works the way it works right now yeah I agree great approve the use based on that right or approve the parking based on that that's right that's not going to be St well it might be that's that's might be but but but but the but the understanding of where we are in this moment and you need five of seven affirmative votes in order to do this is that there isn't a proposal to try to restrict that any way um and that is fine as long as five people are okay with that it's fine I personally I think the use in that thing is going to Sate I say this again a sub regulate just due to the size of the property that we're talking about and it can only accommodate so many kids it's not like you can have 50 kids and we can only vote on what we have for that not can only it can only accommodate a certain number kids but part of why this works is because there's a gap between the the the classes and because the classes start after General I think she said nine or whatever and metaflow starts at 8:30 so you know it it starts after the um the daycare school or whatever starts yes you know so it works right now but if there's no consideration for when this starts when it ends I know we talked about the half hour gap between the classes um then then you can grow that 50 people becomes a block throughout the day and and that's what you're you're doing here is you you're just dodging this throughout the day and I and I I think you have to account for the fact that it may it has the potential to expand to the point where you just can't dodge it also and this is a Hy she also might decide she wants to move to California next year and and that's and that's fine and then CN she'll have a whole load of that's fine I'm just saying you have to consider the eventuality we talk about our our bulk variances and things like that uh they ride with the land not even the owner or the business that's there that's we're saying this rides with the business that's there but within that you have to account for the fact that that business that's there is not the same as the business that was there in 2021 when it was her and a couple of kids walking through the woods we don't have a crystal ball we no we don't but you have to you have to consider it that's that's what I'm saying how you condition I'm struggling one thing you have control there is the size and I know you're talking more so about frequency but the size is going be locked in by the dimensions exactly we're only like we said that's obviously a condition we have to get the exact size there's only so much mud in that area an engineering stands right is it we know what Sunset is right can we use Sunset instead of dust just to make it something quantifiable that's all yeah okay Mr R yeah I I would agree with everything the board members have deliberated on for the last four hours you know I I think we have and always do do our homework I think we always do and try to accommodate the applicate I never think we're about putting up roadblocks or trying to SW any business down I'm for the application I clearly see a room for the people that are very interested in the topic clearly we have a couple posters here of um people with smiling faces so there's clearly a benefit right a much to add I mean I understand you're you're point about um it' be nice to kind of brot this in a little more with the the timing of the classes and the scheduling but I think as Mr K said it becomes an Enforcement issue too I just don't know how we can do that I'm not quite sure um it's really going to make a big difference and I think as Mr Maz said it's going to probably self-regulate there was an easy way to do it that made sense I I would be open for it but I don't really know how to do it Mich who are who are our two Alternatives I was an alternative who's the second me Paul okay um just taking a straw pole in my head um excuse me any further discussion no soone got to make a motion I'll make a motion so I'm going to make a motion to approve this is I'm you well approve based upon the conditions approve based on the conditions that have agreed upon um and subject to uh confirmation of parking exact number of parking spaces that's going to be one of the conditions as well as the exact dimensions of the area we're talking about I was telling you you don't need to go through the m i don't need okay I I can if you would like to and no no no okay and um obviously limited only to this application yes only to this applicant and with no need for a dedicated halfway to the bathro you saying limited to this applicant yes uh yeah I'm good second second M way second call ready Mr yes yes Mr yes Mr yes Mr yes yes congratulations all did we did all the ad what I want you to know is We R folks we're still conducting a meeting so what's gonna happen is we're kicking before third one today to three and already to we're we're going to wind up needing a special do we have the opportunity to put anything [Music] keep your ears opening next it's going to be we got May 16 I think meeting on the second discuss coin don't wor question while we're still here anybody knowing Mr R is not be on the second does anybody else have a conflict on May the second the regular meeting in May 2 just want to get that's all try to be here okay Mo all in favor Susan did you want to comment on anything good