this meeting is call provisions of the open public meetings both adequate and meeting has been provided by way of publication and independent Democrats and C new newspapers on or about February 1st 2024 and January 30th 2024 in addition notice of this meeting posted CL Municipal Building located at 3 Park Avenue and any handic accessible en posted on the municipal website provided to the municipal Clark and distributed to all persons if any requesting copies of the same this meeting is being recorded with both audio and video and maybe broadcast this meeting is a Judicial procedure any questions or comments must be limited to the issues that are relevant to what the board May legally consider when reaching the decision and the C appropriate the additional hearing must be maintained at all times all right can we um take the RO pleas pleas mayor Carol here councilwoman fararo here Mr Campion here here Mr Hill here Mr Dashner here Mr C here miss whitesman hereo here miss swingle here de Mario and Mr E are excused Mr Jo sure Mr zi here Mr clo here M mcmanis here Mr here all right item one on our agenda is a perod for public comment for items not on this agenda does anybody have any comments they would like to make if you're on Zoom can use the raised hand qution seeing none we can move on item two mayor comments I just want thing to report um the chair of the hpc's direct preservation commission our Beth mcmanis uh hpc's uh architectural consultant John hatch um our construction official John tson and I are um working with um the redeveloper of the Union hotel to ensure that he is compliant with both the plan board resolution and the shipo permit U apparently nobody has done that in the last so we're going through and working with them and um already had one meeting with them we have another one coming up soon uh going to checklists and um talking to consults so that's a good thing buildings look like Flemington when they're done and that has a lot of discretion under the flighting more resolution I three the only Council comment I really have to just could you use here the only Council uh Council comment that I have is is to give awareness that we are working through the budget um for the year and we do get bills in the planning board and so I will be taking a close look at those going over the next few weeks and trying to go backwards to see what's been improved in the past to get my hands around what it costs to actually run a meeting and what it costs to support a meeting okay thank you um item four HPC comments Dennis we had a meeting on February 21st um 129 Main Street was a metal roof replacement and repainting outside that was approved 148 Main Street they requested to remove a chimney um we uh denied that request it's viewed as historic um there was no evidence documented that it need to be demolished and recommended repairing the chimney uh both of these ien sent to the board on February 23rd um third item John hatch and I are going to be working with Beth on the next steps related to the historic district uh Map update and just a reminder uh we're having our historic district house tour Saturday June 1st 11 to5 um definitely looking for volunteers to assist especially the day of so if anyone's interested just email HPC uh we're definitely looking for volunteers thanks the denial that you got um Dennis is that something that's going to come up to us now do we think I was wonder what we have to do about that well they right to right to just keeping everybody aware that that may come up okay um is that right they're going back they're going back to look at the structural issue they're also replacing the roof so we expected that that was going to have to come back to the HBC as well to just show us what they're going to replace it with thanks for um commission's diligence on that structure so let us know how that goes and if you need to if we may needing to get involved some point um all right professional reports before we go into this part should we should I notice to say can I have umot a motion and a second to change the um agenda slightly I want to bring item 11 the checklist item um into bring it up for um our engineer to do that as part of his professional report so I'll move to the agenda second a call on that mayor Carol yes Mr Hill yes Council Taro yes Mr Campion yes gin yes Mr dasna yes Mr cook yes M Whitman yes yes yes thank and before we go on to that actually for the people in in the audience item seven today um is are we that is being table to next meeting is that correct uh yes since we made that change why don't we go forward and we get we get to or even we'll be all right okay all right sorry just wanted to check before we move forward um okay so professional reports can I go through the other professional last um do you have anything for us all right B all you okay so um I was requested to to sort of summarize and U advise the board on on changing the uh format of our checklist expanding and changing the format of our checklist as you know our current checklist does not make any provide any guidance or applicants that are just before the board for a use bance uh application uh we have one of those on tonight uh and we've had several in the past makes it somewhat difficult to for an applicant to determine what it is they need to submit as part of that or and or for the consequently for the board to decide what it is they would want to see as part of that it's sort of a each point is a sort of not an oart menu you're you know repor directly um in each and every situation uh so I was suggesting we use a format that I developed a number of years ago I provided you a copy with the one the most latest version of it which is what I provided the P put a few years back um it's it's really a format change I mean the information you would put in this checklist would essentially be your current checklist requirements unless you want to expand upon them and by adding some other elements to it um but the the basics of this is gives an applicant even if they're working without the benefit of professionals to understand what's required for the submission it it breaks downage what's required in the way of documentation and what's required in the way of information would be incorporated on a plan that a companies the application or related documents that company the application um it's a relatively simple format what I have found over time it allows me to significantly reduce if nothing else the number of pages my complet reports might be because each right now I have to tell you I number one this is what your right says and this is what I'm saying about your right on here basically just be it being editable format I me basically just saying you know yes or no did they provide the information uh advise you whether or not they're asking for a waiver and and then recommendation over here I'm recommending again board makes the determination whether I recommend the W be granted either as a permanent waiver or temporary waiver uh or if the item be deemed incomplete so it it simplifies the whole process my letter my letters if company this would essentially just be of telling you what the application is what documentation you got as part of that application and then then refer to the checklist items on here where I'm recommending the denial might on on my letter might elaborate a little bit more as why I think you know denial is worthy uh or in the case of w I just think the wave is reasonable sometimes it just summarize in group them all together and then just at the end you know like I do currently um just summarize what what you're if you're agreement with what I'm saying just the action you take so it's more format um and it's um I think stream I think in the end of the day it streamlines things um and you know if you want to see specifically board members interested in any item that were're say Den not they go on the checklist and read exactly what it is uh and go on from there so um the checklist is part of your land use ordinance so if you're going to uh amend it you're you're going to come up with a format if you want I can edit this uh take your current check list and edit this to be consistent with what your current uh regulations are uh we could also screen line there some things we're doing now checklist says an app that submits X number of copies of a submission but we're really only requiring four or five copies so we can you know we could tailor this to what're not only what our current regulation say but in reality what we're actually doing um and um and once that document is before the board if you're satisfied with it I believe the process would be you would recommend it to the governing body because I think they have to actually introduce it first and then it's a land sword it actually comes back to you in case they make some edit to it uh and then it goes back you know it's accepted by the board recommendation go back from the board to the Gover body and they adopt it once it's adopted then it be published and part of your probably on your website applicat could just you know access if they're there uh and you know it might take a little people might get a little intimidated Maybe by you know the number of things but it also goes through each type of application it just indicates whether that information is required or not on the more simple applications as a lot of this is not required and of course on the more detailed applications the majority of this is required in one you know one way or another that's my reader side just thanks for that the reason to put it on the agenda today was that Bob explains what will need to happen for the whole thing to happen but at this point we're just in a situation where the board has a chance to quiz um and today we would decide whether we want B to go ahead and do that work to create that for us then it would come back to us for review and discussion in depth so at this point we're just discussing whether we want him to do this work or not it's something we feel we want to do you feel you want to do right is it clear that just keeping it to that level today we're not going to get into the weeds of what might be in it right now we're going to ask B and his expertise to create that for us for what he thinks we should have we can then all look at it review it against our ordinances ourselves and our and then sort of totally open to discussion um for that process it's two questions um so I'm sure I'm understanding correctly we're talking actually about two different things here one is to simplify with this rubric form sheet existing um requirements we already have to facilitate reviews being faster then the other piece of this is also creating from scratch a list of creating the checklist of items for what we've called you know a variance only or a bifurcated application right because because we would want to have the same mechanism in place for major minor Amendment right it would be one sheet but we're also we also need to create a checklist of what we would need to review a variance only with no site plan application no it's all in one every type of land use application is on here uh and there's a number of these items that for example if the item doesn't apply to that type of application it's not checked no I understand but like right now we have nothing in ordinance saying what is what is necessary for a use B Crea application right but we do have ordinance existing already talking about the stuff that's for major s plan right so we would need to have some obviously you'll make a recommendation some list of things right that would say okay this is what our professionals would need to review a b application you don't have that currently so yes you're right okay right so we be creating that part as well and so the checklist would be cover all of it but right now we don't have ordinances to cover some of what we're proposing right obviously all this is and and and all this requires an order stream to regardless so if we're doing it we might as well just do it perfect sense I'm I'm assuming the draft on this was for Frenchtown or Clinton 2018 so in the past six years has anything changed did they adopt this as working oh they all been yeah this actually I went back and tried to remember I think I first did this for West am or like maybe maybe it was close to 15 16 maybe 20 years I don't remember where I first started but just before and then we just used it in other other towns have picked up on it um even ones that I have haven't represented I never copyrighted it so but but it's been working I mean so just there's no think with the storm order laws changing it and now they've got this shade tree ordinance that the state is imposing um on all the municipalities would you include um language asking if they've done the answer is it's up to us so that would be yeah it's your checklist I you you think there's something I mean I would if you think there's something on what I give you this honorous and you don't think you need it you take it off or you want to modify the laws are so honorous and you know and I think and I and I really don't mean this in any perjorative way but in the last two years I have found that a lot of Professional Engineers especially in smaller firms are completely unaware what the state has been pushing down to the municipalities um m in fact we've heard it here at the planning board over the last two years that they weren't aware and didn't know and we've got a redeveloper Who currently is now at the DP had no idea you know I don't know how much money this guy spent on plans and being blown up Liberty Village was being blown up because of of storm water rule changes and and now the shade tree ordinance that shade tree law that they put in we have to do that too I think those kind of things and whether or not they you know somebody needs a do I don't know if hun counties on here if they need a County permit to get to a County Road but you know we do have a number of State highways in this town think if they've applied to the state for a Road opening permit or whatever I think that should be on here I certainly think I'm speaking for my Campion whether or not they put in the foret that would that that's a requirement of yours that would be on here um for is that form our Sewer Department a requirement submission of a storm water you know um analysis form it's not going to go into detail what the law requires it's just you're required to submit a form again you got to keep in mind to this is completeness this is not into the merits of any application so we just want to make sure on a major site plan application that that if we know storm what reports required sign here you have to submit it whether the report that ultimately gets submitted is a piece of garbage or not you won't know that until you actually review the report an applicant needs a de permit for whatever reason a storm water permit and this is the question I you should that be on here is a DP storm you know is DP permit required have you if yes or no if yes have you started the application process because that can go up an entire Cy we can wasted a year of Our Lives just to them to come back and say oh yeah I couldn't do that well I I'll some extent prer a car on this but this this can't you can't a checklist is generic it's supposed to apply to anything so you can't tailor it necessarily to cover any other any all possibilities and any normally any action that this board would take would always be subject to if there's permits required from an outside agency the ones that are on here that Conservation District is on your County planning board is on here but once you get past the county agencies if if an applicant needs a d permit you can put it and they can just tell you whether or not they need a permit but again I'll TR car I don't believe the board can hold off completeness because an applicant hasn't applied for the committee yet and and you certainly can't hold off uh approving an application okay they every application on the local perspective can be subject to receed of County State you know any other local hire uh approvals um you can certainly say that ask that question is a require um I have seen some checklists that do require proof of submission to a county proof of submission of a d application if necessary um I haven't really seen that challenged as far as whether how it's proceeding what the status is but I have seen that as a checklist requirement but I've also seen the applicants request favors because they're saying well we want to choose to go this route first before we spend the time and the money on a DP application and then it's up to the board really to determine whether that particular situation warrants it in most situations it would may we just have so much blood plane in this town you know understood understood but again like B said ultimately at the end of the day they can't proceed with any approval that you grant without obtaining all of those final supplementary approvals and at a certain point it's kind of up to the applicant to what kind of they want take and the whole only side of the whole fact that the whole process of determining completeness is once it's complete then the clock stuns under the land use law depending on the type of application how much time the Bo has to renew it so the whole idea here is to make sure you get everything a you're saying you want you granted whatever waav you're going to Grant uh and that everything is on the table before the clock starts what I was going to say before is I do a lot of applicants work in town Clinton and this particular checklist and in other towns too that that use it and does make it very clear makes it very suct makes it easy for easier for the professionals to review for the board to review to understand um it's it's is very I found it very that's certainly good to hear because I sorry um that was one of the drivers wanted to do this is to make things more um open very clear what we're looking for and then to save the applicant's time and money in terms of how much time it will take off to review it for instances thing and wasting time let's be clear on the outset what what we're looking for and some of the details that Bob's talked about is certainly then what we would do at the next stage everybody we would have lots of opportunity to ask Bob to add certain things in and then we have the opportunity to look at our audiences and decide what do we want on there and what do we not want on that that's that's what I was say based on the level of specificity of the questions being asked and you said you just wanted you didn't want to go into the weed you just want to say WR do we want to have Bob do this it sounds to me like based on the questions we do I don't know if V need do it right yeah that's that's basically like so there's plenty of time for us to add in any things we want and it's going to be after to be a discussion but by that point hopefully we've got over this hump of all these applications we have and we have a meeting where we can really get into it and then discuss it and have a working session it needs um to get this clear and um usable for everybody help anybody else have any questions or ments for the discussion Hannah and Dennis and Melissa and Michael nothing you all good good great good excellent so then I guess we need to do we need to ask for a motion to ask Bob to continue his work preparing a sample checklist for flemingston specific to Fleming's um ordinances as discussed right now motion okay second mayor Carol yeah Mr Hill yes councilwoman fararo yes Mr campan yes yes Mr Das Mr yes Miss wman yes yes started on that probably get some some inut from right do we want to have a couple of board members of this kind of an ad hoc subcommittee to work on this or would you rather not I was wanting everybody to be able to have input on it so what I'd like to do I was thinking if anybody else has any talks about it but what I was thinking is if if Bob creates what he thinks we need we all look at it if that process then becomes we find that's unwieldy and it's not working for us then we can discuss reducing down to if we can't get it done I would like everybody to be involved because it's such a big change for us and a big thing right bringing everything in but if but if we can't get it done with all of us and it's too too many hooks you know then we'll have a committee is that fair enough to say no it was not oh my God um okay did we take a roll call on that we did thank you we did thank you B so yeah just keep us updated about when we'll think about when in our um meetings we can slot in that discussion based on how things are moving ahead keep updated on that yes um all right let's move on to item six approval of minutes from the February 13 2024 a meeting all um disseminated last week I believe I saw those um does anybody have any comments or amendments that need to be made on the minutes that they read not there was one one small Ty I think that should be the whole year that's it all right so can I get motion to approve the minute with that rision Mr councilwoman yes mayor Carol yes Mr yes yes Mr Hill yes jha yes M Whitman yes yes right I some seven car I'm going to need assistance on this one I believe Council has asked to CH leave this to the next meeting yes so um I think we had discussed briefly that what they were coming in for was a request to amend one of the conditions of the resolution um they were going to come here before the board tonight and ask um and go through our normal procedure which is to go step one which is does the board members that voted on the resolution feel that amending this condition in the manner requested would have changed their vote and if so they would have to notice for the change if not then they could do it without notice and I had some discussions with Council and I said you know out of an abundance of question why don't we just notice and come before the board and ask for your request so if that's what they're going to do they're going to notice for the next meeting um and come and nothing else will change they're still asking for the same thing they'll make your presentation um but they're just going to do it based on the same build that was required for the oraly and everybody's received a copy of their Red Line request of the change of I believe so that was part and parcel of their initial has it so you can think about it if you have queries we can't talk about it right now exactly if you have any queries on why this is a thing and why this is a whole issue and what's happening feel free to contact they can contact me but I am leave counil yet can ask question when when when they do that does that open up the resolution for other changes they can ask for any Chang um the board can certainly ask anything they want of an applic no um but uh yeah I mean they're re essentially reopening discussion okay and with that be limited to the um members that were eligible to correct vote on the resolution so yeah those of used that please R you and understand that as well we can before we get to that discussion next time yeah so I'm happy to answer any technical questions anyone might have I'll leave the arguments and yeah they're going to make that to it's just an unusual thing so I thought if it's not something we done before done before just for the people that have been here before I believe it was the billboard application there was a landscaping question that had come up so they came in and they asked it's more of a yes correct um it was more of a timing or a bonding question I don't remember specifically but that's the only other one that I can we did one we did one last year about interpreting what expanding the conditions of an approval with for Barber and Beauty to include other personal type did that as well did that more recently y cor y That's I'm only saying that because Mr in the audience that's right was the okay all right I just want to all right um item eight is a resolution for our annual report cool so that will be on just quickly that'll be on for March 12 now there will be notice but just for anybody that might be here for that that'll be on March 12 is filling up again there we go um okay item eight the resolution of our annual report that was issued by EA there was some last minute changes because I asked Mr cook as his role as chair of the SRC sign review committing to add that on I we have to so make sure we're doing this right so they kindly pull together the additional papers that you saw um so we if everyone wants to take a look at that and take a look at the attachments and we can discuss this or any comments anyone may have at the the meeting on the 12 the resolution of AD the standards basically carried over from here to year the attachments that are different um and I basically included everything um from the actual uh determination that I Le prepared to just the summary of basically everything that Bo did in 2023 and also the actions of the sign of the sign committee so what I've left blank in the event that the board does want to discuss and adopt the resolution tonight um what any recommendations may be we could put that after we utilize that one or if we want to hold it and have discussion at the next meeting we do that as well all right well the board want to discuss and then Rising from the report yes Jeff so the one thing that I would add we're already doing but I think it should go into the report which is to establish a checklist for variance only applications um I think we let's we signal the governing body that that we are going to be doing this anyway but that they should be aware that it's coming um that was something that we ran into several times last year and I think it'd be worth I mean just we agree we're going to be doing it I think it just uh to document it in the transmittal to the governing body I think just would be the logical thing to do okay and um do we need to identify separately this the items that Mr cook noticed that was a describ a whole there would be a recommendation to the governing body on signs because if you if you read our report um it's really twofold there were some signs installed throughout the bureau without the approval of the SRC I can only assume the result of our zoning officer transition because things just got lost in the shuffle however some of the signs that have been going up are what I would refer to today as a banner a vinyl banner which we had the sign Review Committee would never say you could put a banner up as your sign forever but our ordinance doesn't specifically say the use of vinyl paper nonpermanent magic marker I'm I'm not sure where to draw the line here because it's what's happening is if the sign Review Committee doesn't get the application which we have aesthetic rights that we can make recommendations for and in the past we have said things like well you can't use vinyl well where is that in the ordinance well as part of the Aesthetics now seeing that some signs have gone up and there are some vinyl signs which certainly won't stand the test of time um I think the ordinance should just flat out say you know nonpermanent mat material or something like that um that that there should be change new because when people read to the ordinance the fact is not there that you can't use a non-permanent material to make your s so do we want to make the recommendation specific as to material or do we want to say review the signage ordinance to clarify which signs must be referred to the SRC well both like I said I think it was just a miss so we we refer we review all signs other than Highway retail and and um it's just again there was a miss and when you look at the date of the misses it was during our transition so it's like nobody's fault you're trying to go through it to to the point on signs the one sign issue that to me was glaring last year was the one for plus Wellness that was be painted on the window and I remember you specifically Todd saying this was never envisioned when we did this ordinance and this is have times change so I think that needs to be looked at too if we want to address it pro or con not everything can be covered right in an ordinance we try to try but but again yes I think we should just like to Jeff's Point signal to the governing body we're going to make a a recommendation it will not be Earth shattering by any stretch of means but it'll be more a technicality as so the zoning officer can say oh to site mayor's example yeah didn't see that in there or look there is something in there that gives some discretion or however it's WR um so I think it could go in as a general we're going to look at this this year um because it does tie into um I'm going to bring it up later in the Committees but there's some work that might need to be done that will tie into that ordinance anyway so we might need to be looking at that ordinance all related to some other aspects do a general we might need to be looking at that sign review ordinance this year and for the board's edification you when you review the ordinance on signs even though we wrote it seems like yesterday but it was 2019 and um um for example there's a form out there that the burrow secretary is supposed to have the burrow cler I couldn't find it I I'm not sure they can't find it ey so I think we have to reissue a form and so we have to really go back to the ordinance say what's bu valid and what's not all right that's great so that's just capturing that really signal that that's going to be we'll have to add that into our list when we about commit on okay so got those two recommendations any others either generally or specifically yeah can you just speak to the new people about what the idea is behind this in terms of reviewing our variances and why we do that sure for them um at the end of the year the municipal land use Law requires uh the zoning board and in this case The Joint land use board activ planning board um to review the variances that have been granted um in town with the mindset of saying okay if you have consistently granted a variance from the front yard setback requirements in your residential zones then maybe you might want to look back and figure out whether or not that setback is still valid at this point and just kind of hear you towards giving an overview which you guys are doing anyway and you're pretty um you know up on that but this is to kind of guide me towards doing that and make a recommendation to the governing body as to what may need to be changed based on what you are granting because you're really not supposed to reone by variance you're supposed to do it by ordinance changes and this is what kind of helps you make that anybody have any from the report was issued um by elain does anybody have any items like that that they wanted flag out for us to add on to this resolution I don't personally but start checking with everybody everybody online Hannah and Dennis Melissa or Mike nothing crops up anybody here no I don't know care would this be no it's would this be the time to look at because I know Mike's had issues um regarding the for regarding you know I've brought up you know whether or not they app the sewer water so I don't know if we would if we would initiate a look at that ordinance I mean listen in the past we've made recommendations that don't necessarily fall squarely within those four corners and again just to kind of throw it out there I think we've talked about it in connection with the checklist what we can say is um you know Jeff recommended incorporating establishing a checklist for variance only applications we can also put in there and over all checklist revisions to incorporate whatever else is necessary something along those Lin just I me um we had we had a conference call today with uh Council coun municipality about um the um reservation of water in a in a multi project when the first phas isn't built at all and then they want more water and that is you know you know that is a real commodity in the burrow so you we're reviewing all of that right now um and I that's not a land use ordinance it's a water sewer ordinance but it should be looked at I mean I think it's I mean it's important that this or knows when that change is G happen whenever that happens yeah I think that is definitely more of a burrow issue because we don't really have any um involvement and allocation that sort of thing um but certainly the can bring that up at any time so other than that and we added those items in can we then the board everyone's comfortable I'll bring it to the next meeting good it down it down all right so can I have a motion to adopt the annual report and send it to the Govern yes so it would be a motion to adopt resolution 20245 with the recommendations that were placed on okay so second Mr Hill yes mayor Carol yes councilwoman faar yes Mr Campion yes yes Mr yes Mr cook yes Miss whitesman yes thank you I I'll make those changes to incorporate those along with the voting and thank you um okay so item n completeness car I have a change in this one last minute change today um well we do have Council here um I can say to the board that um the letter that was received earlier today from Council indicated that um they are going to address all of the items noted as incomplete in the report um see if you want to make any statements more yes on behalf of uh the applicant T barries we did receive Mr cleric those report this past weekend um we know that there's items in that report that we have to address um we're going to have some a plan revision to address things like this setbacks and things of that nature there might be additional waiver requests um that we're going to do but we understand that tonight you're going to deem the application incomplete we ask that we're going to jump all over this and get it out there because we need to open up Tes really soon so if we could be put on the agenda for March 12th for completeness purposes only assuming we're deemed complete on March 12th we'd like to notice for March 26 um and we would like to do that notice at our own risk in Dan and that's kind of why I put that in that letter just in case we're deemed complete on the 12th which I expect be okay we don't have the ability to notice on right I if I right that's why I'm giving the heads up that I am hoping to be able to notice in advance for the 26 at our own risk knowing that um you know we're hopefully can be on the on the 13th sorry and if we're not and if we're not then we'll yeah it's your It's Your Grace today do we do this incomplete or do we table it with no further notice require that the complet will be so there's no notice for the completeness uh that's just Bob would typically go through his report and then sometimes the applicant would say and make comments as to why the board should Grant waivers in certain circumstances or not um if I'm hearing correctly what you're saying is you agree with everything in this report or at least I don't necessarily agree with mr's report but we're we're going to I there are a number of things there that I wasn't even going to be able to argue the you about so I know that we're going to have to submit additional information there might be additional way request on the 12th but I have our engineer taking a look at it he just had so shoulder say shoulder surgery three so they weren't able to get something together well we certainly appreciate that we can have the full complet all at once and do it one in one meeting rather than arguments now and then giving it up later I it was easier just to ask it for it to be T but understanding you're going to deem it incomplete tonight so that your clock doesn't start running but when do you think it will be res hopefully next week will that be enough time they be piggy backing on something already wrote so should there there there's issues about where the RightWay lines are where the uh where the setbacks are for the walk-in cooler so I need my engineer to put that on a plan should they did it they didn't do it or they're asking for waiv w right we usually ask for 10 days for our professionals but you know Friday at 11:59 certainly this request the applicant is saying he would be doing it at his own risk uh in the past we have liked to have an application being complete before we go ahead and notice right um due to the circumstances due to the request due to the fact he putting it out there ahead of time I mean it's really a Bo um but it would have to be completely understood that if it wasn't being complete on 12 then obviously there's no yeah and if and if and if we don't have what we need in order to review correctly in time 12 that's on your risk too right Karen that's just um for the 26 um this is all pending uh submission of other um revised plans as well but there are two public um hearings that have been continued to the 26 which is fortsville and the chck we we also understand that I don't want to sit here for three hours hoping to get heard so if it's clear that we're not going to be able to be heard on the 26 but you know those plans have not been submitted so there's no guarantee that they will have those plans in so I just want to bring it up so that I appreciate that and if the board says they see you're not going to be able to be heard that those other two are in front of you then I would just ask at that time an announcement be made this just allows us to try and move it along were still canel on us and moved and many particular done that I don't feel compelled to be right kind when kindness but you know I mean uh you know I think this is a no quantity little business in and so faring right but I'm let's see when not come with that let's see were there were a couple items in the Box completeness report where you were asking for input uh from me and I thought it was on landscaping and lighting and I just thought since you're here and you might want to get the benefit of the boards on lighting we didn't plan on doing anything other than what's there now um but on landscaping that's one of the issues that I'm going to be asking the engineer to throw some Landscaping on there to with respect to that uh walk-in shelter I talked to my client about that so we're going to have Landscaping shelter there it would be uh I was at the site tonight on my way here it would be helpful to at least identify where the light pools are on on the property so that we can determine if there's opportunity to add uh I don't I suspect we're not going to need to subract but whether or not there's opportunity to add LS I think that would be helpful okay where and I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty here but we're really just putting in a walk out freezer for the restaurant going into that building so the the the extent of the improvements here we're really trying to be limited and able to open up this business so um getting into a whole new lighting clam in the parking lot is something that we want to try to Mo away and to to be clear I'm not asking for you to add a lighting plan with the the lighting levels throughout the property I just am looking for the location of the PO on the okay so how car in motion to incomplete vote on that simple level we do that first and then we can talk about the second request um to be able to be placed on the March 12th agenda for the next completeness and to notice at the moment okay so can I got a motion to the application Mr cook yes Mr Hill yes mayor Carol yes councilwoman fararo yes Mr campan yes yes Mr Dashner yes Miss Whi yes yes thank you and then we need a separate resolution toil for them to notice for the public hearing on theion that the completeness goes ahead on 12 correct but what they're actually what they're asking for us to be able to notice prior to being deemed complete so at the um the only thing I would want to reserve for the board is if the application even in complete on the 12 which I don't necessarily suspect it would be but if so then they've reserved the right to have your Reen notice for whenever that next meeting that's your own Hill yes Carol yes councilwoman yes Mr Campion yes yes Mr Dashner yes Mr C yes Miss whitesman yes yes thank you very much so item 10 is public hearing for Golden Heart H LLC 2887 ail Avenue this is a um news variance application so this is for the um Bo of adjustment yes theate so so essentially what we're doing is we're replacing two the but for purposes of um discussion only yes we have the full members we do all right we reset here we go Bo of adjustment here we are ad um okay so this is item 10 new application do this an application I were putting appication numbers on some things are we continuing with that or lose I do that thank you it helps me I like to have unique identifiers for things we tend to different things thank you let me know in the minutes what that might be okay all right to you put my phone Drive in here with my exhibits and it's saying you have to format your disc that's a problem oh formatting my is a problem says you have to youone yeah we're just doing some um technical aspects right now I guess so um so is everything on there didn't you issue these today we have them so can they are posted onto the website yes you go to the website you should be able to share um well tell you what why don't I started and then when we hit the that point I'll pull up the website we should be able to catch them because you sent them on today exhibit so they exist system yes so Steve grenberg on behalf of the applicant Golden Heart Group Home LLC um they are the prospective tenant of property known as 47 Maple Avenue block 28 Lot 8 in the burrow of Clemington we're excited to present to you this application to provide a daytime Community inclusion program for uh developmentally disabled adult uh people it's essentially a daycare for developmentally disabled uh adults um providing educational and Vocational activities such as group therapies social skills training volunteer work and the like um it's technically not a permitted use in the TC Zone um your TC Zone was amended in September 2023 um but essentially what we're doing is moving into the old uh Trinity and fario office space which would legal offices and having this adult daycare facility there I have three Witnesses this evening and that's going to be the Principal um of Golden Heart who bar kisu Langan and then I have the real estate agent James Robinson to provide some more site specific information about this particular building and site and then we have our professional planner John tyina uh who will provide the planning testimony support of the application the only variance relief that we believe we need is the D1 use variance um and we uh are going to be presenting proofs that this is an inherently beneficial use an inherently beneficial use under the municipal land use law is one which is universally considered a value to the community because it is fundamentally serves the public good and promotes the general welfare and such a use includes but is not limited to a hospital School Child Care Center group home or a wind solar or photovoltaic energy faod or structure our um proposed use may not meet exactly that definition but boy it's close when you come to like a child care center or a group home those type of things that have been found to be inherently beneficial used as a matter of law we think that we called uh right in without loes God bless you and Mr Tao will give us all of the support for that when you have an inherently beneficial use it's not like the medich standard where you have a much higher standard of proof um there's a a lesser standard group called The seeka Standard and I'm not going to go into it now because your eyes will roll in the back of your head but we're going to tyena going into it it's it's a much less standard uh of proof to in order to show that um the use is uh suited for this type of um site even though it's not specifically permitted um so with that when we get R to the testimony and I'll have bar Langan come forward okay so before we get started um I you have copies of all the publication notice order yes okay and then we'll just Mark preliminarily as A1 the application and all uh documentation A2 will be those notices and proofs uh pb1 will Mark uh Miss mcm's report dated February 23rd 2024 BB2 will be Mr troutman's report the February 27 2024 and pb3 we have a letter here from the Flemington bur of fire safety dated December 18 2020 so his were completeness reports right lastation um You SP the testimony to this truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do okay take a seat next me you are part K Langan correct yes and just g spell it's v a r i k i s u this your first name yes please and your last name is l a n g y I am correct yes correct and bar why don't you tell the board what you plan on doing in this uh existing office space in terms of your go pay Care Center um gold heart is um an approv provider agency by the division of Developmental disability um we have been approved for different um things to one of them is is community inclusion Community inclusion is we they come out with it the state come out with it because um our development are disabled individuals most of the time they stay with their parents or their families in their home some of them are in the N the group homes and they don't have anywhere to actually go for activities so the state have come out with this community closing SL Day program that they go there doing the P from 9 like around 9 something to 2:30 to have activities like we teach them how to get into the community we um some of them are high functioning so they come into the day program we do like we teach them basic um ads which is activity of daily they can go into the um back with h up their food set it up eat go to the bathroom themselves so stuff like that and um I look around make a research and I think um P County Ron and somet we have a lot of group homes that they are looking for a program like this to attend but they don't have any so I decid to come so this this facility is regulated by the division of disability services correct yes that's correct and um your proposal is to have up to 28 clients that's correct and it's my understanding that you have essentially five clients and then then there's one counselor for each of the five clients cor yes that's correct and you also have an on-site behavioralist what does that person do so behavioralist is a professional it's more like ad doctor but he's more into the behavior issues because some of the these individuals have like autistic Disorder so then they have repetitive behaviors we have Behavior respons where they look at them if they have Behavior they go talk and they make a plan like a plan of care for to follow and then get them back into their routine so that's what we're going to have thisal response side and then you're going to have one onsite manager which is you cor which is me um the program does not provide overnight accommodation so um why don't you give the board an idea it's my understanding that these people can't drive to the parking lot corre they're actually picked up in a van yes and um the counselors themselves how do they get to the site so um we have BS we have many bands that pick up these individuals from homes and the group homes but the the drivers are those that work there they are the workers we call them dsps so in order for me to hire them they have to have private license because we don't want a whole lot of people so they go to the home they pick up the this individual the driver is a worker and then one person will be sitting in the B with them if we have three people in the B it will be the driver and another DSP to come the S bring them to the program and then we work and after we talk them okay so the counselors themselves are picked up um by the person driving the van and that van also picks up the clients as well so there aren't a whole bunch of cars coming to the site because they're all all the workers are come into the site by the van that's correct um what are the hours of operation that get expected so we we start around 9 9ish to 2:30 so by 3:00 everybody dropping off their various forms or groupes so you're only there during out that's correct and um there's an existing ramp to the building correct yes which accessible ground yes it's a wheelchair accessible so that that's not an issue to get into the yes um and what are the size of these Vans are they like mini vans mini vans yes and where do they Park do they Park on site or do they live so it will be like two three of them they pack on S okay yes and so you're expecting two or three minivans at most plus maybe two more Vehicles one for you and one for the behaviorist right that's up to five parking spots at you're actually yes um the parking on site is more than adequate for what you need for your limited purposes yes yes um and the only portion of the building that you're leasing is the TR andio part the inside part which is approximately 4728 sare ft um you have no need for dump starters and you have no control over the remainder of the site correct no you're only leasing that internal space yes and we're not proposing any exterior improvements to the building or the site because we really don't need any renovating the existing interior space correct that's cor it and your research has found that this is something that is would be benefit yes question okay um well the usual way we do it is we have our professionals then ask questions of the witness and then the members so professionals questions I just had one question the mini bads will they be parked on site after hours of operation or do they come home with people no they come home they don't come on site no no overnight part no overnight part questions um in terms of the you said the counselors are picked up so they w't have to park on site does that apply I guess ultimately I'm asking what what if somebody lives an hour away is is that simply a barrier to their employment or will they have to be will they indeed be picked up I'm just looking for a little more certainty about the number of cars that will be ped on the site I'm wondering about employees that may be quite far from well I ask a different way that might please in order for an employee to um work for you they have to be able to be able to ride in the van because the clientele needs that supervision correct yes that's correct so any of the employees counselors regardless of where they live they're going to be picked up in the van because part of their job responsibility is to ride in the van with f Bel yes we have the routes that we assigned to different drivers and with different BS which band is going to different routes so the if we're going to like hunam if we're going to certain area where they have like group homes it's one van and then the workers will pick up the people and bring them to the gr so you don't expect any other parking need other than the two or three vans and the one or two spaces for you and the behavior yes and there there won't you don't expect there to be the need for any parking spaces for the counselors because they're always going to be riding two and in yes thank you and then uh you said there's no need for a dumpster I'm is that mean that you'll be able to use the Dum that are on site already for inter internal garbage yeah I guess how will garbage pick up the handle because I understand you may not need a pull down C devoted to yourself but surely the site will generate garbage yes and the inside garage we have um garage GS inside where we have like garage bags we put like clean up put it in and then TI it but then I'm just to where we put it up to yeah we might have to ask Mr Robinson that actually I I think the important my question was we're not in industrial use that needs a big dumpster for anything it's normal office garbage use that's fine I just want to confirm that there's no need for so the existing ones can be used on site that and then the last question I had and maybe this will maybe this will be better covered by Mr but you indicated that uh that there's a need for this use in the area that area group hes in hun Somerset counties are looking for programs like this and perhaps for parents with their uh with their children as well and I wonder if you could add some some numbers to that in the sense of are there do you have a is there a certain number of group HS that you're citing or what information are you relying on to indicate the need for this use okay so um I'm not relying on just like one or two group homes they have couple of them and I also have like a friend that works in those group homes so um what happened is if there's a client two clients in one group home that needed a program the stat reach out to me that hey we see that you have this kind of program this person like last week I have a a request of a referral from here Anam there's a young lady that living with mom mom is tired they want her to go to a program like this but they don't have any so um but my reply was I'm working on opening one so that we can take on those kind of clients so things like that we're not taking care of just or working with just one group as it's a whole like HTO um R term so the states look at who is in need and then they reach out to me I have I I have the you know the capability of taking the person then yes I say yes to them and then we go through the process and they come on board one of the one of the things that the board will need to evaluate in its in you experience is going to be about identifying the the need for for the use it's it's part of the inherently beneficial test that and that's why I reference your planner that your planner will will testify to and I guess that's that's really the question that I'm trying to drill down I I understand that that the state's reaching out to you folks are reaching out about looking for placement of individuals but I was I guess I'm trying to quantify the need to the extent possible if there are 40 gr homes in the state with for daytime programs if are ex households in the state in need of daytime programs or if the state uh the State Licensing or approval process where they approved you as a provider if that's indicative of the demand in the area so that that it's sort of a big topic but that's that's what I'm curious about is is there a way to quantify the need to help the board evaluate that I don't know if there numbers that you can put on it but generally is there a need that you can express from the state um wanting these type of programs or um in the local community that you're more aware of that there's a particular demand for adult dayare centers is there an influx of them and then that this isn't something that's really needed or is there something that this is something that is a benefit to the community because a man well um this is that is beneficial to the community because just we don't have I don't have a number on it um but yes they there's a lot of reach out you know referrals that is coming in a lot for these kind of programs so um I think it's going to be beneficial to the community and also for the parents that does Mr Pina can provide additional testimony with respect to that because I hear Steve in the background I'm still trying to figure out how to get the doc question just wonder maybe we're going to hear this from another is is there they're there during the day is there any preparation of food or there I can't tell from new documents were submitted today if there's a kitchen here or what yes what kind of activities are occuring in various rooms but do you elaborate on the the dayto day what goes on inside the building what services are being provided so um we operate on day-to-day activities where we come out with um activities like something bingos we create then go inside there we do that and during the week we go to like excursions some of them like to go to maybe the farm and so like in a week two days in a week we take them out to what they would like to see and also in terms of the food what happens is they they all come from like homes and group homes so the group homes do give them breakfast which and their lunch they carry to the premises yeah okay that was it than for talking yes uh is this just a Monday through Friday operations no operations Saturday yes please and um does each of these Vans when it's running its route does each van have two counselors on it one driving and one riding or how yes is that right yes that's right okay and then if you if you need one counselor for five clients and you are to get a to 28 clients I guess you would possibly need uh six counselors that's cor 28 clients yes and then uh you would have two in each Vance and you'd have Rands with two counselors each in it but I'm not sure how you would carry 28 clients when you have two counselors in each van would you possibly need another van or a bigger van like a mini van to mect no we don't need a bigger van so um the three vans is those are the ones that go to the route and pick up the the clients to thees but the workers if there's a worker that don't go like they don't come with the van we have additional van that can just pick them up drop them off and leave because I have I also have uh programs where we pick up people like the same um individual disabled people to work and um take them back home so when they come with the workers drop them off they have to go to other places and do other work and then when we close they come back and get the client all the workers and they take them to their bu fors I hope you understand what I'm saying try I think I do okay and then um when the when a van a full van arrives at the site it would just take a regular parking space and it would be like me if I had a huge family we'd all unload and walk in the building yes out of a parking space yes okay thank you you're welcome okay I'm gonna go I'm going to go to the boards that are online so um Hannah any questions for this with us no um Mike I'm good thank you you Dennis good thanks Melissa sorry my voice is going so I apologize if you can't hear me that well I just have um two questions I think I think some of them are already answered I did take a look at the interior pictures that were provided are there any additional entrance and exits like an emergency exit or anything because I wasn't able to tell from the actual pictures or is it just that main entrance and exit I said that might be question for Mr Robins okay Melissa hear that the next witness might be able to answer that question better all right then I think that was all I had I think the other ones have been answered during the testimony okay thanks uh thanks so you testified that there would not be a need um to park the van on premises overnight I believe you said never um could there be an opportunity or or a scenario where you may have to park a van it breaks down uh somebody sick unforeseen instead of putting on on the record that there would never be a van there overnight could there be in a rare instance a van park there overnight oh yes um yeah that's a good question U that's the circumstances when that happened um let's say the one of the van breaks down um we might have to leave it or I will toow it to um nearby benefits thank you thank as well as might there be an opportunity or or a scenario where a worker I'm just trying to make sure that we don't use absolutes like never Park far there um I miss the van I drive there myself and I say I'm going to catch the next uh you know where I have to pick up my own kid but I'm going to work half a day or I'm sick and I have to get a ride home just want to make sure that there's testimony that says there may be an opportunity for a car or a van thank you okay just want just just really quick um so part of I think some of the questions that Beth was asking and I know your planner is probably going to provide other testimony I just just to make sure that I have a good understanding you're licensed by DDS right division of disability purposes you you want you're running for this facility you've got other fac you have other uh programs and Facilities that you run I I don't have a facility but I have adult programs like we like I said we go to the home store to um take care of this individual and then we also have transportation um the approvement for transportation whereby like the individuals that iate they go to work I really have somebody right now that would become like they need reach accessible Transportation so I do those things so you're already providing services to correct to to folks who would be clients to the daycare facility either in their group homes you're also doing transport to shelter work environments and stuff like that so you so this is what I'm getting at is yes you you've got a relation you've got a group of of potential clients for this day facility that you've already been working with that is correct and Facilities that you've already been working with yes please and they are generally in the Flemington area no it's all I have uh one in Freehold and um Long Branch so so um in your experience working providing services to development disabled adults um you you've made a decision to open this facility because you feel that there is a need to provide this service that is correct okay that's I just that's what I'm getting okay thank you that helps my question kind of follows off on this please tell me if I'm going over I'm not supposed to ask about these typ things but it ties into this so B basically the the scenario is what you've been running through of how the transportation will work that's your plan right now you've not done that in actuality so far is that I correct in thinking that you haven't this is this would be your first of your own facility where you providing it offsite from grou that's correct right right just trying to understand if we understand how the you know what I'm saying the transportation part seems to be confusing as bit whether it will work correctly that way then um guess my other question is right now you're applying for this space to um be able to service 28 clients you're saying and that's is that based on the square footage of the space square foot yes right on what you're allowed to do would you if um you know if you have a business and it becomes successful would you then be looking to expand this location in the future in the same location or would you look somewhere else um I know that's a there are the square fot we're going to once we started expanding more I would like to get another place here or also expand it to different areas or town yeah all right okay thank you so the amount of square footage and the number of clients are permitted to sell that's dictated by the state corre yes okay so you can't just take a 29th person without violating the state licensure corre that's okay no I understand there be restrictions I'm just thinking Blue Sky if it's very popular would in the same would we be seeing something in the future of an application I'm just trying to I know we will have that we'll see that um okay that's everything from me anybody else got anything to sness oh Hannah has something else sorry uh no worries I just had um a quick question maybe about kind of the the operations of it so is the intention of this facility is it um I guess like what's what is there a turnaround rate for clients or or for those that are in it like is there a graduation is it a year-long thing or or is it I I understand it's probably by each person or in in their individual situation um but is there like what would be like the turnaround because you always have trying to have 28 like is someone going to graduate and then you'd be able to get someone new coming in um just curious about that yes um it's all parted into it um this individual some of them go to school and they do graduate so once they really have nothing to do at home so yes on this gradation comes on there will be more referrals that is up to um me to take it take them if the space I have enough space is once they're in your program is there a time period that they're only allowed to be in your program and then they no longer allowed to be in the program they move on or they successfully complete the program in a way or can they just maintain in the in the program for as long as their services are available yes they can they can stay in the program as long as the service is available AG yes okay thank you yeah all right so that's everybody's questions open oh thank you Tom sorry like to open it to the public any qu questions not comments for those witness please yes I'll give it last time we had to table Yeah need it said that St 32 eming really close to your m can you hear me now okay um the traffic you said three vans and two other vehicles so there would be five additional vehicles coming in in the morning and five additional Vehicles going out at 2:30 is that correct and um we do not anticipate any other traffic other than an emergency vehicle something it would be needed but on a normal day it would be five additional vehicles in the morning and five in the afternoon okay thank you um now I was wondering you said that you're open from 9:30 till 2 I mean 9 till 2:30 um what happens when you go you said about going to the park when do you go to the park and well they then will the vehicles be coming and going at those times as well yes go to the par like two times in theek and in going out we in the morning and by back so there would be additional traffic two days a week when those same vehicles that come at 9: in the morning go to the park and then come back one out and they don't but they don't all go to the park I mean if you have no they volunte so we ask this going to to the zoo I can't hear the applicant have to share so um what happen is uh we go around and act the uh clients okay today is Zoo day who want to go and then whoever volunteered to go we take them so it's not like everybody lives at the same time but there the tra the traffic pattern will be um somewhat um not set it won't be the same every day then because if you have more people than will fit in one van you'd have two Vans going and two Vans coming back so there would be more traffic that day then no be more so we come in with B Vans um when there's a time to go like a day to go out one van with the workers will take the clients out so you will be left with four vans on premises so you would only take regardless how many people you you restrict the the number of people who go to the number that will fit in one van no we don't restrict we do ask whoever want to go and if there's more than the one van needed we take two so once we take two it will be three left on premises fair to say that there there may be instances during the week where of up to three vans might leave the site to go to an offsite thing and then come back before they leave for the day correct that's while the address of this property is 47 Maple Avenue it seems that all the traffic that goes to this site goes off of Emory will that be the case with your Vans and your cars that you will go into the site from Emory Avenue rather than Maple Avenue is it fair to say that the Vans will come from either Emory or Maple that they're it's up to where they're coming from yes some you you think some would come from up the Maple Avenue address yes would be that would be very good but very unusual is that a question got follow the rules especially for me Mr cook for everybody no I've dealt with you for a number of years okay the application I'm wondering um you said you're never you're never open at night so there'll be no change in the lighting okay um how many spaces parking spaces are required if that whole building were occupied do we know that this witness wouldn't know the answer that question she's only to talk about this space I'm wondering who do I ask the question about signs are there going to be any signs if you propose a sign it's going to conform with the ordinance correct that is cor but the property that fronts on Emory Avenue is a residential lot so I would want to know how you would put a commercial sign on a residential lot for a business that's in that building any signage would have to conformed with the origin that's all I can tell you at this point we don't have plans for a sign right now she just wants to occupy the space but if she does plan on having a sign it would have to conform with the ordinance um I also was wondering if you have an expansion and you're the number of people that are coming to your program above 28 would would this business have to return to the board to get permission to be in an additional part of this building or by branding this usage variance that would permit the whole building to become this program if we expand this use beyond the tenant space we would have to return to the board for an expansion of the use now will be am I correct in understanding that there will be no outside activities for the clients on this property no outdoor attractive thank you very much anybody else from the public want to make a com any questions for this witness anybody online see thank you very much Mr Robinson Mr Robinson your last name spelled r o b i n s o n yes it is and can you give the board um benefit of who you are and why you're here yeah I'm a licensed commercial real estate professional based in Flemington commercial Banker in Flemington um I've been licensed since 2016 um I have a little bit of a background in planning in L use I a planning board chairman 15 years New Jersey planning officials for few terms and and served as the real estate chair of the Flemington Community Partnership one of the last projects I worked on back in 2018 and 2019 was signs so I enjoyed the discussion very much this evening and you're familiar with this site and what's your affiliation with this site I am the listing agent uh for the site we supplied the board with some information information by exhibits that um we're going to raise up here the first will be floor plans um and let me raise that up I got to share I'm sorry was asking Al do I need to give them different permission to be able to share got the shot you should you should be able to hit the Z says host disabled participants multiple under the up the green chair Buton your host yes okay it should allow multiple panelist awesome should love thank you when I was a chairman everybody had paper C well Jim you didn't bring them with you share so people at home can see as well this is everything we have on our digital packet correct so I want Mar separ one two five six yes now we'll just identify sheet don't to get my face over there but I think that's okay right why don't you explain um why don't you describe uh what's the third sheet the floor plan there floor plan that is outlined in blue is what was the floor plan when that was the Trinity law commercial facilities like this all the walls down so the the first seet we just go through each on yes sheet three that's the floor plan of the subject area corre and the the floor plan that we're proposing is yeah it's actually the entire building and the subject area is outlined in blue I hope okay so I what we did with Mark the whole thing the whole submission A3 speak 1 through six and then as they talk about each sheet we'll identify what that is so this is sheet three that's the floor plan of the building showing the subject area in and can you describe yes it is a about a 4700 square foot area the entire building is about 43,000 sare ft um there are currently nine offices a conference room two large restrooms a large entry and Inception area and as you can see by looking at it there's a a large hallway between the uh offices on either side of that hallway and is formally occup by by the Trinity Law Office what what are the other abuses in the uh the building um there is a railing shop there is a landscaper in the back of the building there is a Fine Art not going to call it Studio but things are stored there um nobody comes goes um and I think the proprietor is not even local um to that and there is a railing shop there did I mention a a shop that assembles golf clubs that was okay and the baseball academy and the baseball academy I'm sorry that and that's the largest tenant there that's about 8,000 Fe no when the trainy firm was there it was a law office used correct correct and multiple attorneys and staff were there yes I think he might have even suct to another attorney and um the site was capable of handling the the extent of those employees and the cars coming in and out for that use yes and what we're proposing is that actually less Vehicles than would be I think it is a less intense use than than the law in terms of vehicles in terms of uh the traffic vehicular and pedestrian let's show the board some photos of the interior of the space um that is Pho number I'm sorry they're not in order on the website that's why when I'm pulling them up it's going to be out of order here that one yeah we yeah I got that off the website it was it's on the website and it was it was part of the email that was later that was all right so they call that A4 right and you just describe what's in that A4 yes if you look all the way on the right um there's a portion of the building that is not the subject of this application where the building makes a turn to the left and forms an L you can see there is I hope you can see there's one door in the corner that is not the door to this spot um the next door which is a double door which has a Ada ramp attached to it that is the entrance to this um subject property and if you continue left past one two three Windows you'll see another exit door um and that is about where it is prop this space ends there's a large garage door that is uh um part of uh another use easy to say that if you uh unit number two is one side of doors the other door will be the end side I'm sorry unit number two is shown in your building has a set of doors on it is that first set of doors the double doors yes wider doors there is is your cursor if you see where the cursor is yes that's the entrance those are the doors that have the Ada ramp and they are set of double doors and then if you proceed to the left there are three Windows right and then that door where the cursor is now um is an exit door okay and immediately left to that is another space so with the garage door with door here to the left far left of the building is a different space that is a different space and the door um to the left of the three Windows is in an emergency exit door yes it is and but the main entrance is the double doors yes that's correct picture the the hallway this have to be A5 yeah A5 sorry about that right I just want to make sure get and and what's A5 DET three offices and a large hallway a wide hallway and that one we have that is one that was a private office that was Mr Trinity's office yes so that's sheet five of A3 I only did the pretty this one we have yeah that's little this will be a describe that is uh that was used as an employee allowance with a little kitchen up it's a shower next to it and this one we did provide is the six yes that would be she is a restroom I'm not sure one of the resturant one of the resturants and the other is I almost identical with that is she four this one you can see the double doors that I spoke of earlier a reception and lobby area and the door that you see open leads to the three offices that in the hallway that we saw the r that's I they're the rest are offices the only things I the only one I think they didn't actually place on the record was two of A3 that's the survey okay yeah that was that was submitted with our packet that wasn't yes now is the intent to renovate these into anything more than what we see on the pictures when they do occupy it is there more space there than no this space layout going to change for them once they occupy that are they going to change the layout within the interior walls are they going to use it as it is I don't know the answer to that they may I mean these are temporary walls um my understanding is as is they're not going to make change I I know that when I show Barry the space she liked it as is um that's fine I have nothing else for to Pro okay thank you um professionals my report I raed some issues about the site condition um are you the rightness for that I'm sorry the site conditions the things about the site conditions I spoke to the landlord today about some of the things in uh the planner's report and was that your and um and some of these things I had previously brought to uh their attention and they told me by the end of the week those would be the things such as the barrels for instance I I too was concerned about those and went took a look those barrels are empty barrels they're used as barriers rather than as barrels um but they should be removed and I think the planner report said that uh you want to put a fence there or gate there put a fence or gate but they'll use barrels and there's some other um cleanup items that uh yes thank you so in general I see the the use of the barrels it it seems like there was some debris on the site and so I would I I appreciate that this is tency for a small part of the building but this is an opportunity for the board for the burrow to live the dou site so I would if their board is inclined to ISS an approval I think that that should be a condition of approval just to rectify those issues um I had also noticed that there are some trailers on the property and I wonder there are two trailers and I asked about those trailers and they belong not to any of the tenants but they belong to the owners of the property I do not know it's in those trailers I do not know if they are permitted and if they receive permits so I don't know that I think that's largely an enforcement zoning officer issue admittedly but uh but I think since since the the site is before the board it's you know it's appro simply question the conditions if there are non-conforming uh improvements on the property yeah we we're happy to work with you and the boards for other board professionals on on those issues um in terms of clean up and if there are any um anything on site that isn't permitted in terms of the trailers or anything else to to to resolve those issues and my last question is uh just a followup from the previous testimony I asked about the ability to uh how the site would handle the the trash from the dealer tenant and will they just simply be existing onsite dumpsters I did make a note of of that comment earlier I don't know if you made it me but I did make a note um I they find out I know that the tenants there are now responsible for their own trash I mean I think they have cleaning services and they where those cleaning services put the trash I don't know but I will I think that uh there VAR for me personally not speaking for the board but for me personally I think there are a handful of answers to that question that are going to be acceptable the one thing that I I want to confirm is just simply that uh that this is not going to trigger the need for an additional dumpster if it does uh there may have to be another application before this board and if that's not the case then it sounds like this is one more tenant to given that there are existing trash uh dumpster located on yeah our on behalf of the tenant we would be either using the existing dumpster on site or dealing with it in the way with a cleaning service or hauling it out ourselves and but we're not going to add another dumpster uh just for this use it would record thank you very much my questions um so the photographs you're showing us uh this is the space as it was left by the attorney when he left the facility yes including the shower including the sh um I didn't see the engineers report so no I didn't write a report because it was no site file okay um we're just carrying information tonight and looking at exhibits were submitt this afternoon um so that's based on what I heard whatever and limited documents in file question just maybe for the board's record the board does have on file a site plan from 1983 for this facility um this is a general observation aside from the parking layout striping which was different on the plan where apparently sh in the photograph crl photograph um and they did they did submit a a survey of the current site uh from from 2021 so but that that's limited documentation you have to work yeah I think that survey was prepared when they B the understand the current the current when they the yes yeah and you know one of the things I wanted to jump up and and say were talking earlier but it wasn't my spot because when you're looking at your ordinance there are circumstances that I present presented before this board like we're here tonight where you have an existing space and you're not proposing any exterior changes and you're essentially there's an office space and you're going to be using that office space but for developmentally disabled people um it doesn't really trigger site plan issues because we're not doing anything that would trigger site plan issues so if you want to tidy up your checklist you might want to consider tidying up the ability to have a site a formal site plan waiver application in the burrow kind of like what they have in Ran Township where the planning board can actually say under certain circumstances we can wave site plan um just throwing my little sense in there okay thank you um D do you have anything I don't have any questions okay thank you um so we'll go to the board members again I'll use the one on line first from Cheno Dennis any questions fre up nothing here could he stop sharing just so we could see we're still seeing the picture sorry about that but I have no questions thanks thank you Hannah no the head Mike ham none thank you Melissa good thank you okay just real quick just make sure that we don't have make sure it's on the record the fact that there is a shower that you put that was shown in a photograph that you have just presented there is no intention to use the shower for the use that we're that that is in front of us correct that's correct okay the the the break room kitchenet that was shown is doesn't have is is I'm assuming is if you could just answer like typical office kitchenet so you're talking like a sink in a microwave and a refrigerator kind of set up not cooking foring pretty much right so there's no there's no capacity for for this use to start cooking substantial amount of food it's more of like a reheat and refrigerate kind of situ correct just making sure and I'm sure the shower was there because you know if you know any the professionals that were there they're probably very athletic i i i l my impression from the testimony for the previous for the from the previous witness was that none of those things were going to be happening here but showed a picture that had a shower I just wanted to make sure okay thank you we could certainly put in as a condition of an approval the board May Grant no res just making sure I'm okay thank you very much thank you thank you here anybody um from the public have any questions for this with this please I'll shout well Lois Stewart 32 emry there was talk about cleanup of the site is that something that this board can require they talking about the attorney's talking about no sight thing I like what our planner said that this is an opportunity for this burrow to improve this site I'm wondering what the legal possibilities are for that to happen yeah we we agreed as a condition of approval to uh clean up the site that set forth in his MC menace's report in terms of the debris and the the right and the trailers to the extent that they're not permitted we deal with those you know any Zone violations out exterior we have to do the other question I have relates to Landscaping has anybody looked at the landscaping and if the site plan was done in 1983 I'm sure there have been changes in requirements for landscaping of commercial sites and I would like to know if there's any possibility of an upgrade of landscaping for this site as well yeah this tenant in this proposed is not in the position to do landscaping on this site and we're not we're not proposing any additional Landscaping we're willing to um as make sure that the landlord cleans up the debris in order for us to be able to move in and direct any zoning violations but in terms of um land additional Landscaping we don't have a landscape plan and she doesn't have the means or the ability to prepare a landscape plan when all she is dealing with is this interior space okay however okay cool because I'm representing the landlord I will communicate to to them tomorrow that there was a concern expressed by Lois okay thank you I just think that it's no comments questions taking the question he agreed to um consider it and take it back to the Lama that's what I understand corre thank you um right can I make a suggestion Mr grimberg we' you've been here before it's nine o'clock we usually try and take a break I think this seems like a natural place to take a quick break before we start the next witness present right happy so five minute breaks it's currently 9:00 minutes do we have to take the yes we do take the roll call make sure everyone came back from break um with the exception of Mayor Caro um Mr Campion here here Mr Hill here Mr dasna here Mr C here Whitman here M swing here vinsky here Mr here mcis here Mr here all right so I would like to call Mr tatina T a i k i n n thank you can you please give the board the benefit of your qualifications hi uh I attended Ru University when I finished my studies there in 1992 I was licensed as a planner and I had pleasure of keeping my license for the last 31 years most of the time I do this I appeared with for planning Bo boards from State Unity providing testimony on behalf of Africans and uh this so I've never been in Flemington before it's delightful to be here and you are my 150th board that I'm sorry I offer Mr Ty as an expert planner anybody have any objections to okay thank you John why don't we give the board the benefit of your analysis with respect to this site and the Golden Heart uh use and particularly being in certainly so um I will I'm actually going to preface it with with um with a brief bit of personal information um our family is blessed with uh with my nephew Daniel my nephew Daniel was 28 he is an extraordinarily high functioning autistic adult um so uh for that reason I have 28 years of experience uh working through the New Jersey developmental disability system and how it works um with my sister and her husband and and their their other kids um so some of what I will tell you comes from that information um just personally more about how uh the servic are are are used and needed and about the concept of Aging out and what that means um so right now um let me I'm sorry let me let me do so got my personal thing out of the way let me do a little bit of mask um we're here about 47 Maple Avenue block 28 Lot 8 uh it's a 4 and a half acre site on the edge of town on the uh kind of the pil edge of your um transitional commercial loone District um the site as Mr Robinson said is about 40 is four and a half acres as I said 43,000 plus or minus square foot buildings um consisting of multiple spaces uh that right now um think I saw J County was for as well I came up at 65 roughly stri parking spaces on the site and they're roughly divided between the east side of the site and the west side of the site um we are we will be on what is called the west side of the site um closer to the Maple Avenue entrance and interestingly that is how I've been to the site three times and all three times I came in through Mel Avenue so um that's how I got that's how ways that's how ways get you there I guess um but uh and the Eastern side of the site is really dominated by the baseball academy um so for example I believe is as missis's report referenced um kind of the west side of the site's kind of very very very very quiet on the east side of the site has activity that really picks up in the afternoon and uh for example like today um there were I believe 20 three cars there and basically there were three different high school teams that were working out the baseball academy um you know in their various cars and stuff so um that's kind of the activity and and it's really why our use kind of dovetailed very nicely in there um as Miss Lian said uh we're there you know 9ish till 2:30 um again after am peak hour to 4 pm peak hour very low traffic generator you have a very low parking reform when it was a law office 47,000 square feet 4700 square feet excuse me um would have required 16 parking spaces so this Lang said you know we think we need you know two or three vans and um and then the two uh employees and um the board actually did a nice job I thought of kind of thinking about the what ifs you know what if you you know Etc so I'll kind of add my what if in there and Jane was doing the math what if you get to a full 28 you might need five Vans you know so I could see it being up to up to five Vans uh plus the two so you know I don't think we need to keep ourselves in a you know in a straight jacket it's entirely reasonable that there could be you know seven points instead of five um you know I think that's reason again particularly when you look at it uh versus the um 16 that would would be there as a as a law office um so that's really the operational aspects that um that I I think are appropriate the last operational thing and um Miss Lang didn't quite understand the site completely and again this kind of comes from my experience with working with different programs um she didn't know she had a lawn um and if you look at the at the aial um you see just to the north um just to the north of the site which is to the left you see the big lawn um that's nice and green in front of the property um that is on the property and it's actually an irrigated manicured lawn um I suspect it probably has something to do with baseball academy when I compare the color of the green of this grass with the color of the green at the baseball fields behind us um but uh it is a green manic law so I could totally see a nice June day where everybody decides you know what bring your pet and jelly sandwich outside and we have a if the you know and what I would how I would characterize that is they would be normal activities that you would see with any office shoes you know we all like the nice days that come in the spring when we can let ourselves out of our offices and go sit outside for a few minutes um so I could totally see that occurring you know on an occasional basis um you know Miss Lang did a very nice job of telling you kind of the way things are and and then the board Mr cook and very ni sha pointing out the always and Nevers and and we really don't want to be in an old to never straight Jack I think it's entirely appropriate that the lawn might be us used you know occasionally that there might occasionally be a um uh you know up to up to five or seven vehicles um you know those types of things I can I can give you 25 scenario when I left my car at at my office um that might have had to do to my person time back way back then but um in any event so the always Endeavors I really appreciate Mr the cook kind talking us off of some of things um so uh we are here to let me do what I'm here to talk about um we are here to talk about um uh this inherently beneficial use um Miss mcm's uh letter did A bous J of outlining exactly what the what the parameters are um talking about the SE balancing test which I will take you through um as you know the definition from 44 and 55 t-4 so inherently a beneficial use is a use that's universally considered of value to the community because it functionally serves public good and promotes the general welfare such a use includes but is not limited to very important a hospital School Child Care Center group home or wind solar photo voltaic energy facility so we fully believe that this is uh very akin to a child care center and very akin to a school um it uh it is it is providing a very valuable adult daycare um role in the developmental disabilities system for those individuals that do age out so when an individuals under the age of 21 they have the ability that they're required to attend school if they are able at all up until the time they're 18 they're allowed to attend school up until the time there of 21 at which point they age out of the education system but then they have the other 50 years of their life of what are they going to do every day and um that is a good challenge and it's a true challenge for caregivers and uh first and foremost really first and foremost and then it's a true challenge for those individuals what do they do every day for the restra Cs and this program provides some of that whether it is one just being a place to go two providing valuable life skills just such as operating the microwave you know being able to put your lunch out being able to arrange certain things file Etc I'm kind of blessed my my nephew we laugh he's actually the only one he's actually the only one in the family that that actually has honest work um he has two um part-time jobs that total 45 hours a week um working for Wegman's and for a local Law Firm um he is the best filer on the face of the Earth and uh and he keeps the frozen food section at wman in Ocean Township uh sparkling um and uh and both of those companies are to be really praised for what they do wagons could not be better and they um they also understand that and also from my experience working with Somerset arm where I also work and volunteer at a facility in in um Hillsboro that I found through a client fortunately there are tenant of theirs and um but what you find out with the development of disable Community is and the wag din is fabulous my sister came and said well you know we do certain things on you know we've traveled a little bit in the summer and she stopped there and said I know that your son will be my best employee that I have because my other 12 devel developmentally disabled employees are here every single day and most of them had never missed a day of work in their entire time work here so it is uh really a tremendous thing when we can bring them skills and bring them um bring them the ability to be out in the community and that's exactly what Miss L was talking about it's bringing community inclusion how do we bring incl on a daily basis so to give you a sense of the numbers and the need um for the New Jersey developmentally disabled office uh as of December 15 23 there were 26,8 73 individuals receiving services from the agency uh at its bare minimum their minimum service would be that they they receive literally a disability check so that is literally almost every adult member individual in Jersey um 1,051 of them are in the care of the state at any of the five inpatient facilities including one in hun County up in CL so there is an in inpatient facility inpatient in huning County um so that means that the other 25,000 are either at home or in group homes and in desperate need of the services that we're talking about in Hunting County alone there are 397 individuals that are receiving Services as adult developmentally disabled individuals I am unaware of another outpatient adult daycare facility in Hing count I know of two in Somerset County one in Hillsboro on 206 one in Summer Set on Davidson a they both accommodate about 40 individuals each okay um in Somerset County there are 1300 individuals with adults with developmental so as I know about 80 that are being cared for I don't know of any in hun so um in Mercer County it's 1,295 in Morris County it's 1835 um so just in our immediately surrounding counties there and hun itself um that there's a good percentage of individuals that are in need of these services and there just are not facilities in existence right now in huning County certainly not in FL but I don't even know of any in huning County at all which given the income demographics shop that's a differ um and and the disability payment is required to be taken by the individual so even um it's not something that's means tested so even if your family is fortunate and you're means um your child still gets a ear adult 28y old adult still gets a disability check from the state regardless of the fact that he works too almost two full time we if we um meet the the board finds if we meet definition of an inherently beneficial use um we have a revised positive and negative criteria corre for use corre thank you I appreciate that um so yes so uh as an inherently beneficial use we would um by matter of law meet the positive criteria so the medich criteria satisfied we don't need to worry about why coun Zone it this way um we don't need to talk about special reasons because we inherently promote the general welfare um and we don't need to talk about um uh the that's it sorry those two things so in terms of the balancing test that goes to the negative crer so M mcmanis great job of laying out what those uh criteria are the first one is what's the public interest at State um so we believe the proposed use for adult Dev to disabled is uh is quite compelling as a public use as a public need we think serves the public benefit without question uh and it will be an asset in Flemington and to the community as a whole um secondly uh you need to identify any detrimental impacts or effects that will ensue from the grants we don't believe there are any in this since we we have plenty of parking uh the use itself is a midday use traveling after am Peak and before PM Peak so it's really all midday travel really no traffic concerns at all and frankly um it will largely be unnoticed um again the Vans are going to come in and drop people off then they're going to come pick them up at the end of the day or leave at the end of the day and take them home much like a shorten school day um thirdly we need to determine whether there's any legitimate detrimental effects that can be reduced by imposing on reasonable conditions on the use we don't believe there are any detrimental effects to be considered but we' be open to reasonable conditions uh one of the reasonable conditions that Miss kazinski discussed was certainly no resident TRS I didn't I have a shower in my office so I actually didn't find the shower that'll be usual um but uh I do so I understand why it's there but I do understand the board's concerned that there will not be any uh any residential use and then finally balance positive and negative criteria determine whether on balance the variance can be granted without substantial de on good and without substantial impairments the in purpose of the Zone plans and under so we believe on whole The Proposal Advance the intent purpose of the Zone plan and the master plan by strengthening the residential and community that residential and Commercial sector by providing a needed service for the development of disabl community in a way that will benefit the entire Community um Miss MCB has talked about in your 22 comprehensive master plan uh that your TC wants to provide areas for more intensive commercial uses that are not appropriate for or require different uses than the downtown I think because we have a different uh somewhat of a different parking requirement um I think it's appropriate that we are located in a TC type Zone it could be a downtown use but again only on uh a downtown facility that had uh that had parking available on site for the uh for the bands that again our clients are not going to travel well from an offsite parking facility um and then in terms of your goals of your master plan to protect it and Integrity existing residential districts certainly we don't impair there to employ strategies to encourage Community Economic Development certainly providing this service in the community I believe to be a benefit um strength and enhanced commercial sector again I think if we can have individuals in development in disabled community that become available to the workforce they could be valuable members of the of the commercial sector in town uh and to integrate residential and commercial segments of the sington B to benefit the entire Community again I think this is a service for going to benefit the residents and secondarily benefit the the businesses if we have individuals that are able to uh provide those Services um to uh to the commercial um community so um the specific site is one of the larger TC uses it has a a wide variety of uses and Mr Robinson test IFI um the proposed adult daycare use is not going to interfere any of those existing uses at all literally taking the place of a uh law office and doing so in a much uh reduced uh impact uh situation um we do not expect any site issues again um we're just reoccupying the existing space I would expect as Mr Robins testified that even things as simple as garbage we contract with a cleaning service that the garbage with them and figure out um we certainly would not need any s elements to deal with our um to deal with the limited office type garbage that we will um that we will have and Mr Robinson provided um the information about what go in would be doing in conformance with Mr F's letter so for these reasons I think the board is the ability to make the findings that we have beneficial use and we meet the SE test for the negative price I'm Avil questions um the transition commercial District allows a number of uses that are pretty similar to what we're proposing here already including Child Care Higher Education and Training and Community buildings as well as offices and medical offices is this such a departure from those principal permitted uses no and in fact the ordinance allows any combination of one or more permitted conditional or accessory uses so the that there's multiple permitted uses on one site is not an issue here either correct not all I gives the a lot of credit you'd be amazed at how many towns do not allow property um if if the board didn't find that this was an inher beneficial use to fa to say that we would still meet the standard for use varience by Under the Mi test by showing the special reasons and you identif to purposes that would be Advanced yes certainly so um we we could if need be followed first of all would be purpose a to encourage Municipal actions to guide appropriate use and development of all lands in a manner that promotes the public health safety and general welfare and then uh G to provide sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of uses both public and private according to their respective drival requirements in order to meet the needs of Jersey St and under that test we would would be fair to say that for the same reasons we testified before we'd be able to show by and enhanced quality of proov that there's no substantial impairment to the Zone plan and zoning ordinance and the substantial detriment of public good correct I think that it would be reasonable to surmise that the governing body had for the need for Adult Day Care for development the S it is a relatively small slice of the population in New Jersey certainly it's SL to the population County but it is a very needed service I actually do believe that it will in the next round of Municipal anus law revisions join Child Care um facilities as one of those uses that is pered District have questions for Mr ta okay thank you call our usual professionals first questions you some questions I actually I did have a number of questions lined up but Mr address okay let's go online first Hanah any questions for thisness I do and it and I'm sorry if it um if it's I had just a question that kind of popped up as we were talking and and it's something that a previous witness could answer I'm sorry I just was curious about um if there's any um existing video surveillance there currently or if there's any proposed if there any if you see any desire or need for it if there isn't any at least for the exterior like security yeah yeah yes yeah sorry video security just for everyone's SE for just to curious there so Mr Robinson we do and I saw on my on my site visits there are existing Camas on the buildings we don't know how much they function the okay yeah that was just well was there something else did I come away from okay um yeah two questions one is there a backup generator available for this building no I'm sorry what was that no okay uh also if there is inclement weather during the hours of operation and it carries over past uh we'll call it closing time there what happens to the residents that are there will they stay the night no no we we will endeavor to get them home it would function very similar to how our schools function um you know in Clement weather they will typically close uh for operation uh and then you know with any in Clement weather during the day you function just like your schools do you you get the children hold it in this case the all home as safely as possible but they will not say that okay uh one other question is uh do you follow state holidays yes all right thank you right Melissa have any questions witness I do have one and I apologize because this just kind of like Hannah sort of popped into my head um in regards I know we had spoke a little earlier about licensing and it's done through the state at what point does the state come in if they even do to look at the facility and kind of give the facility they okay this does it have to be reviewed by the state have to be approved by the state if they have to go through I I believe it's uh under DHS because it's Human Services I think the department of disabilities is under the applicants just talk so yes the state has the ability to come in any time and then and do an inspection after the facility is open I think so yeah for now okay thank you Mr no thank you okay okay I'm okay I'm never good um no I I and thank you for the testimony you answer most of my questions um but again just to make to put a fine point on the benefit to the burrow and I understand you may not have the answer to this testified that there were 397 individuals receiving services from a state inun in County uh uh 1300 or in Somerset similar numbers in other adjacent counties are the data available at the municipal level do you know and there might be privacy if you want this you don't but is is there a sense as to how many uh folks are in FL burrow I have not seen that information in my investigation preparing for tonight I've only seen it broken down by count by year Fair uh given given your experience professionally and personally is it reasonable to assume that there are at least some of that 397 who live in the burrow that they are generally distributed equally in municipalities like I'm trying to just put a finer point on there is a benefit directly to the burrow residents here yes okay thank you I know I'm sorry I'm just I no I get it not to get into discussion but I want to make if we're trying to establish the benefit I just want to make sure we have as much information as possible so MH okay okay um yeah I think my things are more for the discussion so I think I'm now might more appropriate between so um I'm GNA open it up to questions for this witness from the public um I don't see anybody online if you could raise your use the raiseed hand feature if you do wish to make a comment or ask a question I give those people time but in the meantime in the room any members of the public have a question to this witness okay see we don't have anything I'm not not seeing any no there's no no other attendance we have nobody from the public okay so thank you um comments or concerns now it would be right comment comment comments then else to so this is a time for public comments rather than question you can make comments um please limit them to our usual of three minute idea given them the time and we want to get through things if you have any um you comment from limited to three minutes we appreciate it um any member of the public wish to make a comment on this application okay we need to get you no no I can shout okay Lois Stewart 32 em my only comment would be that this is not a particularly attractive site in the burrow of clington and certainly there not a particular attractive site for the residential neighborhood that's there so I do not know if there is any way that the board could encourage the owner to upgrade the site a little bit as a condition of the approval that's my thank you um I don't see any online again so I guess that's all our comments from the public CL well he's gonna Su up first sorry I like to up up first I'm gonna talk in detail about the SE standards and go over it one by one you don't the mic people online sorry really yeah I'm Not Gon to go over the secret standards um thank you this um is a really good use not just for the burrow of Flemington um but it really fits in with the transition commercial Zone um it it when you read the transition commercial Zone you would actually think it would be one of those things that is a permitted use in the zone but it's just not specifically set forth in there um Bari is trying to do something good in this community um and she's a tenant she doesn't own the building she's just trying to at least one space um and needs to get in there as soon as possible in order to get this thing moving for her business um so what I've argued before on this board is that we provided the survey we provided the photographs we provided Aerials and we're not doing anything and particular on this application we're not touching the outside other than agreeing to to comply with M mcmanus' report in terms of making sure there's no loaning violations outdoors and cleaning up the debris and those um barrels that are there uh and dealing with those issues so we would ask that you grant the use variance approval and consistent with what we've done in the past on applications such as this um wave the formal requirements of submitting the checklist requirements for a minor site plan and Grant the minor site plan based upon the information that we've given to you and that would allow us to move forward and actually getting this uh really attractive use for the buau up and running that's all I have if you have any questions or concerns or problems with the application and that you need us to address I would encourage you to ask me now before you deliberate consistent with what we've done in the past um so that I don't find myself in a situation having to whoa whoa whoa whoa who I'll ask any of the board members if they want to take Avail themselves of that offer anybody have anything they want to ask Mr grumberg specifically no okay then I have nothing else okay well thank you very much so now I will make a motion to close the public hearing thank you second Mr yes Mr Hill yes Mr yes yes Mr cook yes M Whitman yes yes all right so General board discussion I want to talk about about what we just heard um if I may start I any questions I thought my personal view reading your report and I was like what this is really a lot of discussion about these Tech finity points I'm surprised we haven't had anything I don't know anybody wants to chime in now but I'm not sure whether I can you run through the the the negative aspects for our plan again on whether i' like the board's opinion or what how they feel about that to hasn't yeah you mean the negative criteria yes I'd be happy to you know one of the in just overall I wanted to say one there are a couple things that I thought that talk that I would want to talk about this even that after hearing the testimony uh I feel more comfortable with or at least that my questions were answered so for example I had anticipated needing to have a much uh more detailed discussion about uh parking on the site and perhaps uh Lighting on the property but after hearing about their office not office hours that their hours of operation from 9: to 2:30 I no longer have any concerns about evening lighting and also they their hours uh combined with the testimony about the vehicles on the property also give me an increased level of comfort about being parking on the site one of the points of testimony I think Mr Chena provided was about the comparison of the previous Law Firm that occupied the space that required 16 parking spaces not mistaken and this proposed which we heard five to seven uh vehicles uh and so it seems based on that testimony that the likely outcome is that there's actually going to be a reduction in the parking demand generated by the property and so um I know that's not quite the answer to question but that's um and I'll get there but I thought that those are two important considerations two big questions I had in my have when we walked into the heing this evening um but in terms of the negative criteria so uh one of the things that the Board needs to decide upon is whether or not you find that this is an inherently beneficial is if the answer is yes it dictates one one set of criteria for consideration both positive and negative um and if not it's it's a it's pretty different set of uh criteria that the Board needs to consider but the the typical negative criteria so whether it's the negative criteria for a non- inherently beneficial use whether there's substantial detriment to the Zone plan and whether there's substantial detriment to the public good or whether it's an inherently beneficial use and you're talking about uh what detriments may occur as a result of the the variance being granted I think that that's also relevant to uh any detriment to the public good as well as uh detriment to the Zone plan so it's it's a similar consideration say um but in terms of the public good uh so I think relevant to that is the discussion or some of the uh things I just talked about in regards to parking uh site activity um uh lack of uh Lighting on the property or needed lighting for this particular uh use rather very lighting oner um but other uh public good considerations the board should think about is the activity that's going to be generated by this one of the things that we heard is that I think there's there frankly limited activity it seems that there might be some some uh outdoor activities perhaps Ed blonde during lunch hour something like that but we're talking about light activity as opposed to an outdoor use on the site um we heard testimony that was or similar to some of the other permitted uses in the district um other aspects of uh public good the board might want to consider lack of improvements to the property so we're not talking about new signage uh we're not talking about additional construction activity or demolition activity it's just simply reoccupying an existing tenant space almost exactly as as the exist um from the perspective of substantial detriment or or any detriment to the Zone plan I think uh Mr tyina did hit on uh on those items that the Board needs to consider but just to reiterate I think the big issue in terms of the Zone plan is just simply that the board uh in the buau recently redid its master plan and recently updated the TC District so of course we did the master plan in 2022 where we made a variety of recommendations on how to how to really revamp the TC district and then that was accomplished in 2023 not too long ago and so in that respect I think that the Board needs to uh consider some of the testimony that we heard and about uh how this use might be similar to or not in the board's consideration how this use might be similar to some of the existing uh permitted uses in the district uh considering uh child care offices and things like that and uh consider that information as you weigh to what extent The Zone plan is going to be subject to a detriment if use variance is granted um and of course if this is a not not an inherently beneficial use you also have to add criteria which essentially asks uh why would this use not have been considered by the governing body by the council when the Zone plan or Zone District was updated you know uh what is given the fact that the use might be uh might meet positive criteria might particularly suit site why would it not have been included in the recent list of updated recently updated list of permitted uses um and I think the board will you'll certainly have to incorporate that I I do want to note that this is a pretty unique use um I don't I'm sure there are zoning ordinances out there but I off the top of my head I will tell you that I can't think of another one that specifically permits adult daycare I'm sure there are ordinances and Zoning off officers that have interpreted the use to be included in in something else that might be permitted in the district but it's I think it's the UN circumstance to have this particular use specifically listed in and we I don't use the word permited but the consideration of that negative criteria aspect of the detrimental plan given we just updated and those things do we consider that separately from The Beneficial use we can find it inherently beneficial we can also say it's it's detrimental to the master plan and if we and and if that's the case how do we then perceive forward so okay so what's I think it's I think it's more complicated question this is we Ben so let's start there so there are we heard there was four part test to the Sea and I'm going to review it quickly uh the first one identifying the public interest I think that's I think that's it's the the need for these types of services for adults with developmental disabilities combined with the lack of uh similar uh services available elsewhere the second step is to identify the detal impacts that will ensue from the braning of the par that is I think that's the answer to your question for the secret balancing test that's the first time that you want to start to consider what the detrimental impact might be to your Zone plan to your master plan so considering that this use is inconsistent with the TC district is it inconsistent with the with the the overall purpose of the TC District how despite that it might not be permitted how does it relate how similar is it or not to some of the other prited uses in the district the third step is to determine uh whether or not there are any detrimental impacts that can be mitigated through reasonable conditions so are there any conditions to board could apply to this application in order to mitigate to your point about the negative impacts of the Zone plan to mitigate the impact on the Zone plan what conditions might uh might not reduce the non-conformity but reduce the maybe it's the public perception of non-conformity from from the outside perspective might might move this move the use or the way it's occupying the building closer to the intent of the the the new TC and then the fourth step is trying to balance that need that you identifi in the first step against the the resulting detrimental impacts uh as a result of granting it and considering some of the conditions that would be put for so the question about the if the board is concerned about the the negative impact I think that what needs to be identified are what are the negative imp to the public good what might those be how can they be mitigated if they can be mitigated and then on balance what is the what is the results and then what are the negative impacts Zone plans how can they be mitigated if they can be mitigated and then on balance what is the result does it lead to a lack of substantial detriment as a as as a whole okay so that was a lot as was report but it's comp seems like it's a complicated complicated decision um so I want to um get the board's view on the items you said consider the negative right wouldn't you start with is it in currently beneficial yeah Absol I do think that that's first thing because it's going to dictate I just went through the SE balancing test if you if the board votes or finds that it's not inherently beneficial then basically those four that four part step test is but if you were to talk about parently beneficial as defined by the law meaning hospitals group homes schools houses work schools hous of worship um SC child care so I think this is just one of those things where when we were when you look at inherently beneficial in my opinion it's somewhat discriminatory to say well it's good to take care of your children but when they turn 18 it's no one so for me I'm all in in inherently beneficial we can decide the rest of the thing later but to say that it's inherently beneficial to take care of your children but it's not inherently beneficial to take care of them when they turn 18 I I I I I don't know it's almost like a oxy Mor like I can't even imagine how you could not find that correlation to your point the board might be interested to know that yes Child Care is inherently beneficial as is through case law assistant withing facilities are also uh there's I won't get into details but they're also found to be inher benefici so we have sort of two book ends of inherently beneficial for folks that are in need based on different stages of their life so do we need to agree on that and vote on that before we move forward to the other aspects is that what I'm hearing that the way we need to move forward I think that's the best you're doing just so the board has guidance on which of the standards that that went through you need to apply so before we vote on that I pretty much agree on the fact that the between assisted living and and the you know group care for people sitting with yes and I think that I'm right no I I mean yes I'm a m of the board um no no I I think that this is a gap in the law I think I think quite honestly the the again law is the law so there's no gaps in the law but but but the intent if the intent is to recognize those facilities that are providing for those who for whom assistance is needed Assistant Living facility childcare facility houses of worship Community facilities schools those kinds of things I think that um the law may not have caught up to the fact that adults daycare is is a is a necessary thing um that benefits a group of folks who need help um in the community and I think that that's for for me I think that it's just a it's a logical exension of it the definition I'm sorry I was just going to say it it's not in the L of it but it's in the spirit of it for me yes yes and I would even say it's in the letter of it because it says maybe not this particular one but it says includes is not limited to gives you the capability to use those as examples and extrapolate out to whatever you think is a that and I think also we not only assisting the person in the place where they want to be but that helps the family that have the person be able to has there been better in has there been case law on I know before he passed my father went to an adult program for seniors in his community other part of New Jersey um is there case law that has defined those adult senior sender type things um so not in development not development not even a memory hair thing just like my dad was a Bor and my mom needed him to go do something facility but but you know it was it was it wasn't like things at the senior center but it was like a it was more of an adult dayare program for seniors I know that they exist around the state oh Han has a hand up have a comment yeah I I kind of I'm picking backing with what CHF said and that I I do think that there's a gap you know I have a little experience with the opposite end with early intervention with you know my toddler who's not appropriate age for schooling yet so and it's widely popular now but you know that's that age again where it's kind of caught in between school and once this is before school so then what happens after school it's something that's you know necessary now you know and it it really is I'm so grateful for it so just thinking of like the opposite end of it and just having this small taste is just it's it's it's beneficial definitely so just as another thought and comment that way so so we would vot on this is whether it's beneficial we just do that as a separate vote so we so I would move I will make a motion that we deem that this at based on the testimony presented that this is a that we determin that this is inherently beneficial use Mr yes Mr Hill yes Mr campan no yes Mr cook yes m whitesman yes yes right so having done that we then have to consider the negative criter doing I would say now that you've done that I think you want to uh consider I would I mean yes you want to consider the negative criteria but I I would say want to consider the the SE of balancing test right so you sort of uh you you confirm that you're going to use the test so depending on how the board wants to deliberate the first step is to identify the public interest at State and if you recall we heard some testimony about the number of individuals need in the state in the county for this type of a use so you want to do that and then I think the next step is going to be identify any of the detrimental impacts as a result and I think that's negative criteria that you're referring to okay so Beth we can take the testimony of the subject matter expert the matter of law we don't have to re rehash um the um the public interest that's at stake we can take the testimony that has been given and say we either agree or disagree with with the public interest State I think so find that that you've heard adequate testimony to confirm that the need is and then insert your descriptor significant I mean whatever thank you I mean Jeff I'd see where you were going too with you know trying to understand the need to for the burrow right here for the burrow and but I don't think that data exists yeah it doesn't exist that's perfectly fine what what where I was going is is to make sure we had other applications before this board where that that that that question has been raised I just wanted to put it out on the record but what was compelling for me was the testimony that there are no facilities like this in County there's only two in somerson County between those two counties you're talking about you know something 16,700 people who there are 80 spots for for this kind of service so for me that I think that for me is very powerful uh indication we're not talking about um a situation where there is a facility like this on every other corner and that we're not talking about like that there's just that that what it appears to be is that there's a substantial unmet need um that for me speaks very strongly um on the positive side of of why this is needed and again if we can't if we don't dat about fls of B which I know I didn't think we would but certainly if you think about 100 counting and environments um I think that's for me that's that's that's perhaps the strongest bit of information and I do want to know when they talk about the public interest it's I mean the burrow is certainly not relevant but it's not required to be burrow need it's supposed to be you know public interest generally uh in this case it's been defined as a state in that this site can help respond the the only other piece for me and then a lot other people jump in just that the um I think that that because there's a need for this kind of facility in the Greater Community and I'm thinking about where in town this should go or could go I think that this particular site because it is underutilized because it is a little out of the way it is kind of tucked behind in the back a little bit although you know the other concerns we can talk about um because it is reducing the vehicular trips from a law office that not only has people working there but clients coming in and out at all times as opposed to this which can a lot less intense you know if we were to pick a spot for this to happen in town like this is one of the spots where actually makes sense for it to happen in town rather than and I don't think this makes sense on M tree I don't think this makes sense in on on stangle I don't think this makes sense I don't think this makes sense on Highway retail you know in the sense that where we want to have different kinds of of uses I think that this is a this particular site is particularly St I know we don't have to NE go there but like that's but for me I think that that's part of what the what what makes what what you know certainly you know leans heavily towards towards branding a and we do allow as um the testified to multiple uses on a property this is one piece of this property and when you look at the TC Zone in general this being part of it um you know the idea was this this vibrant downtown with concentric circles of things that were less vibrant around it so when we wrote the ordinance and and change the master plan um you know I was on that committee and I I'll be honest the vision for that site was something bigger broader um I want necessarily say better but it was it could be like industrial it could be indoor outdoor recreation it could be a community center could be a theater could be a college like this idea of something big because this is a big big property now to say that that's detrimental I mean when we heard from members of the public all about traffic and how and now any of the uses that we necessarily foresaw there on the master plan would there would be a lot more traffic if you were to put for example a college on on that space or if you were to put I'm just reading from our ordinance light industrial Community Center a medical office um Gathering spaces at theater indoor outdoor recreation so when you think of something like that while it is not not the intent of the TC's Zone in general this particular property is sort of a it's a touch workor of different rental pieces and it doesn't negate the fact that it's still in the TC Zone and the owner could decide to not lease and turn it into something else so you know it's really hard for me personally to say that um it's detrimental to the master plan because I don't foresee in the near future five years 10 years I know how long are that that property would be redeveloped into something like a college or an indoor outdoor recreation facility it's just it's seem like one of those things where this property is tucked away and this is about the least intense use surrounded by right in I'm a out of in on Emory out of Emory um and I could you say using some of the comments that we heard in support of the inherent of beneficial use one of it was that this was in kid of child care which is allowed your so any other yeah even if you take child care there I mean you'd have a row of cars every day coming in coming out picking up and buses and whatever else so so again I can't go as far as say that it's detrimental to the zoning because in our zoning we allow for other things it's just the vision for TC was something that was larger than we could have on Main Street larger from a from a um a parking perspective larger buildings um but I don't find this more or less detrimental to the other uses that are allowed in our TC Zone I just think that we missed it too with not saying child care but not saying adult care right but if I may on that point of the detriment to the master plant if I can be Devil's Advocate I don't think it was the type of use I think it was just the fact that we just changed it like previously when we've looked at ones on and and it's different to the master plan we've been able to say well when you think of that 10 years ago or when you think about that seven years ago this is literally five months or six months ago you know when you fin relations so I think that was part of it but then we've also heard testimony that um the fact that it's a detail the spirit of the law detail anyway that we can say that it was covered as that said we had no Envision anywhere in any of our Zone plans for adult daycare it's not it's not listed in any I don't think it's listed in any of our ordinances anywhere in any not let you struck out so so for me I'm okay with it because it's not like we said oh we have we have any we have a use of adult daycare facilities that we want in this own and this own and not the TC and now they're coming in with a TC when we had just updated it so I'm okay I'm okay with the fact that we've never talked about this use before um and it and it appears from what we heard from from from Beth like this is not really zoned all that often in other jurisdictions as well so it's not like we are missing something here right right um there's always going to be New Uses there's always going to be things that are that are not anticipated in our ordinances and I think that I I don't have I hear what you're saying to play Devil's Advocate it's a good point and you're right just we did the up we did the plan updates in 22 and the ordinances 23 um but I don't think anybody anticipated this kind of use because it's not we don't have it anywhere in town reg you know what I mean like it's that that's that's that is true it's not like we it's well TC is not really the area for this we didn't there we didn't even right we didn't even wasn't even a thought so right no I hear that we Ed that for other things though that haven't been so late but then there's a large weight on this other hand as well for the beneficial on this particular situation that and when when I was reading again just for the board ucation and and and members of public in the appli I was reading our we have multiple TC districts not just this one um they tend to be located near highways easy access and we even said things like easy access for cars and groups and buses and so the intensity we see in the master plan that these TC districts have a higher intensity use than they're used today but from a detrimental perspective you know you always want to right be nice neighbors and members of the public were concerned about part going in so this is I think this is the best option in in a neighborhood quasi neighborhood setting where you have to drive down um versus some of the things we have in our master plan that should the owner say Hey listen I wanted to converse you College um which is allowed by the way so um all right so what's what's our next step then are we do everybody on the board feel that they had a say in the discussion I want to say anything else um not seeing anything well the two last two pieces of relief that they need are the D1 Varian approval which we know now is to be governed by the SE standard because you found it to be inher beneficial and the ranting of the minor site plan based upon the documents presented because again we don't have a site plan waiver which if we did probably the applicant would be applying for it but we have to go through the process based upon the documentation provided the floor plan the photographs the um testimony with regard to what they are going to change or not going to change as the case may be here um that's what we would be facing about I did draft some conditions if you want to hear those too as we go through um the additional deliberation um I have to Todd's Point and please feel free we can discuss any of these and tweak them accordingly uh overnight parking is not anticipated but may occur on their occasion such as if a car breaks down or there's illness with driver um signage will be compliant with the ordinance um otherwise they'll have to come back for approval um if they expand over 28 clients must come back before the board for an expansion of the use um the applicant will work with the board professionals uh and the Landlord on clean up of barrels and drums and debris and trailers on the property to the extent they're not permitted no residential or overnight use um the applicants agent that testify will conve to the landlord that Landscaping is a request of the board to see if there's anything they could do like that um compliance with other conditions in best report and that's I had one others and I don't know if we can do this or not along with the Landscaping question Bob mentioned before that there was a 1983 plan okay so I don't know if we've got jurisdiction to put this in or not but um generally like if there are Landscaping elements this wouldn't be on the applicant because it's really the property owner's problem and this may be a code enforcement thing but if there are elements in the site plan prior approval regardless of the date that are not being currently done that's a code enforcement question but I don't know if we can put it as a condition here like if there were if there were trees that were on the original side plan that are no longer there they're out of compliance right but it's not sorry I was say like but I don't know if we can make that a condition of this approval it is they're coming here for a use variance and it is a they're a tenant and they're not the owner of the property and there's no ex like but and I don't know if this is something we just want to like put out there and make our code enforcement person deal with it but like like if there are things that are not compliant that that like that need need to be compliant and clearly we've got testimony from uh the landlord's representative let's just say the real estate person uh Mr Robinson that he's gonna talk to them and that but I'd like more than talk but I don't know if we can get more than talk we can't get more than talk um I think the applicant understands where it is that we're going um I don't know who the site plan was granted to um that obviously carries with the land and it's approval I don't know what we're talking about that may or may not exist now if we're talking about let's just say for instance a tree I think that's more difficult to deal with because we'd have to see was it ever put into the dive is there a condition that required maintenance you know as opposed to they're supposed to put another exit door on the west side of the building and that was never done that's a lot easier to deal with so I think we'd have to see what we're talking about um at the end of the day I think it does become more of an Enforcement issue than an obligation on the part of the applicant yeah I mean and I'm happy to not put it in there I just I was just thinking of a way I was thinking of a way in which we can communicate and I'm looking at Mr way that we can communicate to the property owner that in a stronger way a strong that it's like we we've heard from members of the public and the board certainly has concerns about the aesthetic issues that were raised in Mr bis's report I can tell you it's in my notes and when I talk I will be as forceful as as possible I I will wear my planning board Chairman's hat when I have this discussion but to that to Jeff's Point again I I think we're here for this applicant for this 4,000 roughly square feet of of what they want to do but I think as another takeway for another day maybe we should like it's sort of weird that we have a renter I want to reduce this out here to a renter coming for a land use change without the property owner so I don't know if that's the same in other towns because we've had it before so and you know I don't want to go through all the other properties have but but it Strang it's not required I mean they signed off on the application itself a lot of times you know they may or may not I guess only because some of the things that you want to do right we're all in agreement from the members of the public very rare does that happened there was an agreement that property has to be fixed up but we can't put it on the applicant that's renting a space do not going to touch the outside so that's that's my dilemma again for another day another discussion to say sorry no but I get your point but it's because you really can't lean on anybody to help the process I think I think we can indicate and I'm just I'm thinking just through I'm open to suggestions here um the board noted that there are certain conditions of the property them or they want to take care of something like that that may or may not be compliant with prior approvals like something something that maybe give a little more teeth to going back to the landlord but not make it a condition of resolution compliance that would be difficult to achieve could we call out specific elements you know what I'm say something along those lines specific elements of Beth's report that were findings aren't some of those items proper we have a property maintenance and that's kind of where I'm getting that's what I'm saying can we not I'm not saying put them on notice or anything we have property and we have a very now Vigilant zoning officer who may pay the site visit that's exactly where I was going I mean again I think we're like we all kind of agree we want to get to without getting into detail I'm on it okay I I have contact with the own so I'm hearing what you're saying and I'm motion I was to say we have from um car with are those the conditions that we are then ready to make a motion based on those conditions as listed or does anybody have anything else they want to add to that list no I'm okay okay then I think you about to say yeah I I make a motion that we approve the D1 variant based on this secet criteria is the right ter I'm using as well as accept their documentation as the minor site plan subject to the conditions subject to the condition and and and maybe to to that point sorry there's a motion on the table but I didn't finish talking yet so I'm just trying to think of the condition because when you were talking about the um zoning official and proper couldn't there be a condition that just said we like we like official okay okay then then my motion stands but no changes to I'll say okay then can you Mr cook yes Mr dashna yes Mr Campion no yes Mr Helm yes Miss whitesman yes yes thank you all very much very much appreciating app deliberations appreciate your board professionals review too thank you to your wit okay give you a few minutes to vacate all right chair item um there's two listed but I can just add one more um the Clinton theing Clinton open cover open cover than but open cinton nights ago and the wings was and the open cry was lost so B is doing collection link everybody we're just trying to finish up our meeting you would mine thank you I'm just mentioning the open covered food pantry that was lost and the B is taking up donations they have a link or they're looking for shot right that they can then give out to their clients while they work out organization there's a link on the website there's a link on the website it's all over other social media platforms I also know that both the um plon area F pantry is trying to meet the as is Fisherman's Mark so if you want to talk to uh uh your I'm sure she knows everything but yeah if anybody wants to give an help initiative that's moving forward um good know that's scary enough I saw the pictures on my um if I may I'm gonna put the next meeting just to close out um this is the ter to I kind committees that the board wants to use moving forward we might um I already talked about the uh the checklist and that we were all going to do that rather than the committee so but if we if the need arises then we can discuss that further in the year you I to like revisit this question ler that's my suggestion for that um the other committee that's been on my radar um I've been talking to Mr talk about this and the other people we got the sign Review Committee um Hannah has agreed to continue serving as a planning board member I've been in touch with the HPC Wendy or and FCP Robin Robin Lapidus would be there continued um person um which with the uh but then that means with the we lost from this SP Trent we have a space on that to was also obviously on on the committee um I've talked with Todd about this and he's in agreement still hopefully check um so we have we have two spaces we have a general PB member and the chair can go on it previously that was just it was Todd given Todd and then there was Trent I've spoken with Todd he's an agreement um he's GNA stay on there that planning board and I'm going to temporarily I'm going to say this it's going to be like temporary thing go on that commit on that um simply because in discussing the with the stakeholder about who they wanted to have some issues came up that might need like a an umbrella approach over our ordinances the sign Review Committee the zoning and um interlinks with the FCP as well so there like a whole Interlink of lots of stakeholders that are involved in this thing but TS agreed to effectively stay as the he would still do the role he's been doing in terms of appli the process that they've been doing in terms of appli we both be on it I and we were to move forward on that basis and then when we see what Stakes out of this discussion that happens with all stakeholders we'll see where that lands but because that's kind of might be an ordinance change in some level I just want to grab a hold of that so I just wanted to let everybody know that that those will be the members on that committee um I've asked Beth to give us an idea of some ordinance master plan things that we might want to work on we haven't finalized that yet so I'm putting on notice that I do want to have I think there might be a need still for the committee that kind of ran last year um but we don't quite know what the REM of that is yet and I'm also cognizant of our budget which was discussed last night we have a certain amount of money but it's definitely nowhere near what you had the years when you did the major change like you had like an extra 65,000 or something that year um for right sure but we don't have that and we only have a little bit to do so I want before we set that up I want to focus on what it's going to look at we also have to think about the HBC change and any Mone is that would be involved checklist that of that many so I want to spend it L and think about it but if that committee needs to form um the previous members of the mayor and Dennis have agreed to continue I would like to go on it and on it and I also asked if ran Mrs Mino was interested in being involved in that he would be so even when it forms that would probably be the M that Committee just putting everyone on but right now it doesn't have a scope and we don't have how much we're going to meet that's going to we just got to work out what we can do within the money and then we'll meet accordingly um but it is my general intention as it is with the checklist to try and have all board members involved in most of these decisions but anyway shap up form right but just use a committee when it's becomes un wielded to use the whole board with the board's permission that would be my intended Way Forward so I hope that clears that up um to's move away from that I don't know of any other committees that we need to form there's any body I am my name you you do have the ability to have a technical Review Committee that's standing we have never done that as a board but when I look at the ordinance you can say when there's a technical Review Committee but what's happened in the past is whether there's certain interests or an applicant comes up and says hey I need and usually folks come out of the woodwork and say I'd love to work on that project or they're only available in the morning so I just wanted to cite that to looking at all the committee that we may or may not have I came across that one that says you can name it today this is the technical Review Committee for whatever we've not done that Jeff didn't do it I didn't do it so I see the point as you say if you have different people for different things it depends what technical review comes in correct and we don't correct and the other thing that I think we've experienced is that because of the nature of this small town we live in you don't want to run into conflicts right we we had a larger Township and the the odds of a conflict were were much lower than you know than having a St TRC makes a little bit more sense I think yeah if we mapped ourselves out we' cover most 200 this yeah um so that would be that for now I think um the only other committee that we used to have there's been other things that have popped up so we had a committee uh we had a census committee years ago we we had the rule that obviously doesn't need to be place we had a committee um on um Once Upon a Time there's a website committee we have over the last several years we had committee dealing with rules of Citi and input and those kinds of things we just did that we don't need to do it you know I think that um the stuff that we've had in the last several years I don't think there's anything that's like I'm glad you felt the same way because I I can't think of anything we needs to do this year right now especially considering the budget constraints we may have this year because everything's a bit tight I was listening to the discussion last night council they're probably going to come to and see if I can cut that budget but we'll see um so next meeting and actually let's look ahead to the next two as well next Meek we definitely have bless Wellness back for a resolution right right then we have public hearing the Central Station cross your finger um and we all got there was a snapper with the manag to get hold of those information new information I was able to access that link and put everything on the website that um we also have um completeness for the completeness right right so we needit something right I think we'll see what we see the for the next meeting on the 12 I just want let folks know I may have to attend virtually but but I should be present that's Central so ex um that's all I have for chair items the 26 oh I did say we talk about the 26 what's on the 26 now we have continuation of Chick-fil-A and continue we announced forville as well they both need to submit some rised documents so that's dependent on submitting and we need 10 days before the 26 it's people I don't know if there's 10 days is even an you know minim just think I did rece a call from in process of changing plan forget what they told me PR can I ask a question on order on the 26th yeah um so I'm recusing from morville okay and then we've got Chick-fil-A which I participating on right and then T I have no issues um so uh which which is going to happen first in the meeting so I know if I'm coming or not when I'm coming can I consider your your mention of what your availability and then when we're write the agenda we'll keep that in mind I mean I'm I whatever you figure it out I'm just I'm just saying you want to be in person for the other thing I would like I would very much like the opportunity again to hear from the Chick-fil-A folks yes well it sounds like they are submitting their documents um yeah possibly there's also a um a escrow issue at um with forville I sent a um a letter a couple weeks ago and I haven't heard back and then there were some other invoices that came in uh this week that U exacerbates that um so I'll be sending out another one tomorrow so I the fact is we generally you you know older stuff goes first so wsv it's generally and you obviously can set the agenda so wsv would theoretically come before trick away because of well it also depends on submitted the revised plans so but then we also do have the that if T passes completeness if um if they were on the agenda yeah there possibilities um so just keep and I appreciate that do it as you see we'll see what shakes out let's see what happens on that day because today changed everything did all right so moving on from that then item 13 is the bills we have slow of bills the last minute today but there's a lot on there but can I get a motion to audit the bills Mr Mr yes Mr sorry yes Hill yesman yes yes okay um it 14 do we have session all right so can motion to in favor thank you