e e e e e e both were against which item number is that b or d b okay so only D would be the only one okay okay got it ready all right good morning everyone we're going to call this meeting to order today is Monday May 20th we are at the Town Hall complex at 2731 Oak Street it is 901 uh council members are all present with the excused absence of councelor Woodson Town manager Town attorney if you please rise for the invocation followed by councelor Safford leading Us in the Pledge of Allegiance [Music] close we meet today to focus on the very best that can happen for our lives show us what we need to do this day give us strength physically mentally and emotionally help us to successfully meet every aspect of Our Lives we ask to be inspired with creative and dynamic ideas and Trust we are guided so that we can meet our lives with joy and confidence amen amen okay I got this now I pledge aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with libery and justice for all appreciate your enthusiasm America America go next is the approval of the final agenda is there a motion to approve the final agenda mayor I'd like to pull a from the consent agenda just for further explanation okay there any other changes with that I'll move approval of final agenda I'll second that got a motion by councelor King seconded by councelor Safford any further discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed hearing none the motion carries unanimously public comment I have two first up is Steven ramuni and after Steven will be Cindy Johnson good morning excuse run on behalf of s pull that up for me step runi on behalf of wh Sand's properties if you recall I was here last meeting uh with regards to White Sand's request or motion for forgiveness of the code enforcement leans uh since then there's been a little bit of a uh a couple other items that I wanted to bring to council's attention um there was a zoning verification letter I believe that was dated in November of 2020 which showed the the property to be in compliance as of that date if you recall at the last meeting we had a little bit of a discussion with regards to the appropriate amount uh for the starting point of of the fines on the property and that number was given to be an excess of $1.2 million so if you look at the zoning verification letter in 2020 uh it can't be both ways if the property was brought into compliance in 2020 then the amount of the fine that was produced by staff is incorrect I went ahead and ran the numbers off the code enforcement orders that were originally issued and I ran them through October 31st of 2020 and the letter specifically is November 15 2020 the zoning letter verification that dates back to November 5th 2020 so when you actually look at the numbers um the amount comes to approximately 420 ,000 give or take a few days here or there so we were asking for reconsideration or clarification as it pertains to my client's motion to forgive the leans um looking at your ordinance I believe were administratively not quite in the right place because according to the ordinance the city or town manager is assigned to First investigate the the parameters of the motion for forgiveness in this particular case uh so that that's essentially what we're requesting or the clarification is is whether or not at last meeting if the Town Council voted to essentially and and that's that that's the final word then we need to know that administratively as well so so essentially we're requesting that the town manager investigate the various issues what's the true amount of the f obviously you don't necessarily need to take my word for it but there is a big discrepancy so if the property was in compliance because I think that was very uh the there was a finding that the property was not brought into compliance until hurricane Ian we believe that's incorrect so we're requesting for clarification or reconsideration in that regard thank you okay thank you Steve thank you Cindy Cindy good morning Cindy Johnson from Turtle time and a resident of Fort Meers Beach um a quick update we had two more Nest this morning so we're up to 14 so that's awesome and a few more false crawls which is expected with the way the beach is right now looking forward to a renourishment soon today I brought you all a copy of the technical reports it's a 2014 version but it has so much information in there it can definitely help you answer questions when people ask you questions and we have several visitors showing up on the beach already our summertime visitors and they're quite excited about the turtles and want to learn as much as they possibly can we have this posted this document's posted on at turtl time.org on our homepage and maybe we can post it on the town's web page too the do the link to it so if you ever have questions contact Eve or me and we're more than happy to help thank you okay Cindy don't run off if I may just proceed at over real quick I just wanted to bring something up to you since you were here thank you yeah um there was a a person that came to me yesterday and talked about the coloring Brook and they they feel there's a couple misinformation in there I can't remember what the second one was but the first one was about vanity zones or a no wake zone and that's not technically true and I don't remember what the other one is but it's in the coloring book so they asked if I would bring it up so I'm bringing it up that there is one other thing and I can't remember what it was off the top of my head but okay I asked them to reach out to you to con that to the chairman okay I'll give it message to my hus Steve's not here so I figured this was the closest way to do it okay I will relay that yeah I mean right lots of people went over that but I will I will look again and see what it was so they're talking about the speed zone the slow the no wake zone and the manity zones is technically not true and then I sorry I can't remember the other one off top of my head I wrote it down but I forgot it at home okay okay but I told them to reach out to to murf as well to let those would be the people I'm not responsible for them but I figur I figured you'd be able to get the message to the chairman I will I will have a good day everyone thank you you too is there anyone else that would like to speak in public comment seeing none we'll close public comment local achievements and recognitions concer Safford wow you just gave me the biggest softball ever I mean Friday was an awesome day I mean we Mike and Don Miller should be applauded uh the Town Town staff LPA Council everybody worked together to get to a yes and it was the right answer and it was a special day and I applaud those guys all right anything else nope vice mayor hope uh didan Scots I'd also like to thank the uh Folks at beach talk radio for the day before Mother's Day run uh it was a success I wanted to thank uh the sponsors I wanted to thank all the volunteers wanted to thank the town for partnering I wanted to thank all the runners and Walkers and I think they raised 6,500 Plus for the Women's Club great cause great event great to see the energy down there and Time Square with the farmers market going on just so much activity uh particularly in these shoulder months for the for season so a very nice event that's all I have thanks and the 93y old that completed the race impressive very impressive councelor King I just have one I'll just piggyback a little bit on what councelor Safford said U congratulations to Don and Mike Miller and uh also Greg van Crum um groundbreaking for the whale it was fantastic Smiles on everybody's faces and um it was nice to see Island residents bring it back in Island icon very good well all mine have been covered so I won't reiterate it yes sir mayor if I may um a couple things you notice that the town staff is sitting closer so they they get all of your energy and they understand and they they have a really good focus and I appreciate that it's good to see them up up close and personal um and Curtis if you wouldn't mind just stand up Curtis L was our new Harbor Master just wanted to introduce him and come on up to the mic introduce yourself just introduce yourself and say anything you want to say but we're we're excited to have him he's he's fitting right in and you know Frankie and staff did a great job TSA um who isn't here by the way telisa had a baby boy uhg Saturday night uh everybody's healthy I went and saw them yesterday they're all doing great so if you wouldn't mind sir sorry to say way back to you now you're good uh good morning everybody my name is uh Curtis lewig um as I stated I'm the new um I'm the new um I'm a Harbor Master here um I'm originally born and raised in Jacksonville Florida so I'm a Florida native um I've grown up in the maritime industry I did 10 years in the Coast Guard um I have uh an extensive Maritime background in the um commercial side of things um I ran a company in Jacksonville uh we docked the um tanker vessels that came into port and all that so um I'm excited I'm excited to be here um I thought that this was a great a great opportunity and fits what I like to do um uh to a te so um any questions you'll have please reach out to me and I'm I'm here to to uh make them make the morning field a better place and where it needs to be that's my that's my goal here so thank you just for FYI for folks who are watching the Anchorage advisory committee is meeting at 9:00 this Wednesday folks want to have further information or dialogue with Kurt we encourage you to stop by or watch online please do please do I'll be there all right thank you Curtis welcome thank you thank you very much appreciate you anything else Town manager no sir didn't mean to interrupt just no if he problem no good all right all right next is advisory committees items reports and appointments is there anyone no okay approval of the minutes from the draft strategy planning session minutes on April 30th the Draft Town Council minutes May 6th and the draft management and planning session minutes from a May 8th is there a motion to approve the minutes I'll move that mayor I'll second got a motion by councelor King second and by councelor Safford any further discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed hearing none that motion carries unanimously next is the consent agenda item item a has been pulled items B there's only Item B is there a motion to approve consent agenda so move got a motion by councelor Safford seconded by councelor King any further discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed hearing none that motion carries unanimously next we've got the item a resolution 24- 95 Florida Division of historical resources Grant pulled by councelor King yes sir was just seeking uh an understanding for the general public yeah this grant is going to help us rebuild the underground exhibit at the mount house uh was obviously damaged and flooded completely oh Jeff hogi sorry um town of Fort Mars Beach Park cultural parks and wreck director and Public Works um so the the match part of it is going to be our salaries over the ne not to exceed 2 years so $90,000 of the 180,000 that we're getting as the grant is going to be more an in kind match with our salaries that are already included so I'm not sure I understand so we it's the 180,000 is a match Grant okay it's a 50/50 Grand so we had to put in 990,000 of it and that's going to go that our the salaries of the staff that are working on it um that's our portion of it but okay yeah so we won't we don't have to put any you know monetary value to the to the match Grant it's going to be all all with our staffing and that'll go to to get the electrical and the AV system and the the underground exhibit so the grant really isn't 180,000 then the grant we will get is 180,000 oh is it yes even with the 90 yeah we have to put in well we put in half of the Staffing so the total Grant is 100 but so instead of a monetary value we're using our staff time so we'll get 990,000 of that to put into the underground but the grant is for 180,000 okay thank you Jeff since you have the microphone you'd be remiss if you didn't just give a thumbnail sketch of what the underground exhibit is and when when will it be ready to uh for for prime time yeah so we had a a a pretty good system in there to start uh the underground exhibit is uh it's at the mount house location it's where there used to be a pool at the at the the house that's there when they took the pool out they discovered there was shell that was lining it so you can see the different levels of how the shell Mound was built by the cloa so um we we saved it as an exhibit it's really cool it's probably our our most wanted to be attraction there and uh you can see what it kind of looked like you can see the levels of of how the cluso Stacked it up you can see burn marks from from uh fire you know fire pits and that kind of thing that are in there so it's really cool we had an AV system with a a couple with the TVs in there to kind of do the presentation um we had the different levels of the years that was in uh with rope lights we want to do it a little bit nicer this time with maybe some lasers what happen happened with the rope lights is when when the underground flooded uh we had a little bit of the shell come down and it actually hit the rope lights and we can't touch them so they're kind of permanently in the exhibit too because we can't go in and dig them out obviously um so we want to do kind of a laser so that doesn't happen again so we don't have the the lines running through the actual exhibit so we're looking to improve that as well thank you very nice anything else John Mayor I'll move resolution 24- 95 Florida Division of historical resources Grant okay I'll second got a motion by councelor King seconded by councelor Safford any further discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I opposed hearing none that motion carries unanimously next is our public hearings we have there are how many we got four five five five I only got four um okay the um the bid protest is also a Judicial so we're going to that's item a under administrative agenda correct okay so there'll be five okay yes so the the five so the next five items on our agenda are public hearings for review of various land use requests for the benefit of the public Please be aware that there are items these items are quas judicial in nature our attorney will further explain um thank you mayor uh zoning revision special exceptions variant es and bid protests are all quazi judicial in nature which requires our public hearings to comply with procedural requirements established in Florida law and in our Land Development code quazi judicial proceedings are less formal than proceedings before the circuit court but are more formal than the remainder of our meeting and follow basic standards of due process requiring certain notices application of the correct standards and decisions made on competent and substantial evidence present to the Town Council in written documents or oral testimony the Town Council will evaluate the testimony in information for each item and draw a conclusion regarding whether the criteria in the state law or Land Development code AS may be applicable has been satisfied pure speculation or mere opinion not based on competent facts cannot be legally considered by the Town Council in evaluating an agenda item testimony by professional who are qualified as experts in a particular area is considered competent evidence by Florida courts as well as testimony by neighbors and residents who have fact-based information such as minute surveys engineering reports Etc or testimony based on personal information if you intend to speak please keep this in mind when you come forward please state your name clearly for the record whether or not you've been sworn in and your qualifications or interest in the matter for purposes of efficiency before beginning any of the public hearings I need to dispose of a few matters um town clerk um if required were all agenda items properly advertised yes they were um at this time if any Town council member has a conflict of interest that would prohibit them from voting on any of these items please disclose this for the record at this time so that we can assure that we will have a quorum present for review of all the items con King none Vice mayle none I do not have any coun Stafford nor do I at this time if there is any if there is anyone present including the applicant property owner staff who intends to provide testimony in any of the five hearings please stand raise your right hand and be sworn in by the town Clark room all right do you swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth all right all parties have been sworn Sarah do you want to SAR okay we'll let Sarah get moved and then we'll read it [Music] he had to go we're tired of him yeah we're tired of Frankie thank you he's got work to do all right okay this is this item is the first reading in public hearing on proposed ordinance 24-14 entitled an ordinance of the town of Fort Myers Beach Florida approving approving with conditions or denying the commercial plan development CPD Zoning for the property located at 841 Estero Boulevard generally identified as strap numbers 24- 46- 23-4 W3 d5b do10 Fort Meers Beach providing for other clarifications as necessary providing for conflicts of law scrier errors severability and providing for an effective date we'll now open the first public hearing here if any Town council member has any expart communication to disclose please let us know the subject discussed and the identity of the person group or entity with whom the communication took place any correspondence that you received or observations made of the site councelor King none that I recall Vice May none as well CC Stafford none as well I've just obviously been by the site many times but um Sarah is this you or is it it's me yeah Sarah pro has been qualified as an expert already by the Town Council and based on her education and experience has been accepted as an expert in the field of land use planning and development in the town of Fort Meers Beach are there any individuals who would like to be qualified as an expert witness on the behalf of the applicant at this time you have been before okay Becky they've been they've been qualified as experts before they don't have to do it again correct correct okay has a property owner applicant seen a copy of the agenda backup material from the staff they're nodding their head yes okay go ahead Sarah good morning Sarah propes with Community Development the neighborhood company on behalf of 7-Eleven Inc the property owner for 841 Estero Boulevard has applied for a commercial plan development rezoning to redevelop the property on the corner of Lagoon Street and Estero Boulevard with a convenience store the downtown zoning District uh was the site or this this downtown zoning District property was the site of a 7-Eleven prior to Hurricane Ian a convenience store is allowed by right in the downtown zoning District however the request requires several deviations from the Land Development code for the site design and therefore the applicant has proposed a CPD commercial plan development the proposed development requires several deviations uh the first deviation is from LDC section 3476 D which requires that when properties are fronting on a sterile Boulevard existing driveway and parking spaces shall be relocated from a sterile Boulevard to the secondary Street and new driveways shall connect only to the secondary Street except where these requirements would prohibit all reasonable access to the property the deviation would allow driveways connecting a ster to a sterile Boulevard and Lagoon Street uh deviation from section 10- 285 along Estero Boulevard and Lagoon Street the deviation would allow driveway separation along a stero Boulevard to be a minimum of approximately 80 ft and a minimum of approximately 60 ft along Lagoon Street a deviation from the vehicle access separation to allow parking to be located primarily fronting on a stero Boulevard um a deviation from 34- 2020 D2 i1 which requires a minimum of four spaces per 1,000 square ft of total floor area or 14 F parking spaces for this site which is 3500 Square ft to allow for a reduction of five parking spaces to allow eight parking spaces the proposed development requests should be evaluated according to 34-5 B and C and 34216 of the LDC the deviations must be approved modified or rejected per findings in section 34 2164 staff's application of these evaluative codes can be found in your staff report uh at the LPA the LPA at the LPA hearing the lp a recommended approval of this request unanimously staff is available for any questions and the applicant is also here okay questions for Sarah none no vice mayor none at this time counc King Noone I don't have any at this time either all right who's going to proceed with the come on up I drew the straw now good morning mayor uh councelors uh for the record I'm Ken Gander with the neighborhood company uh representing uh 7-Eleven Inc uh here for our third uh opportunity uh to bring back a 7-Eleven convenience store through this rezoning first off I appreciate staff I appreciate the staff report uh recommendation of approval with conditions uh and appreciate your time I do have a full presentation uh to provide uh to you but want uh just to put on the record that we are again agreement with the staff report the conditions uh reiterating that we have the LPA unanimous approval uh recommendation as well uh we have submittable documents on the record in the public record as well that have been uh revised and updated um and just we are consistent with the comprehensive plan plan development code the criteria laid out before us so I'd be happy to go through the full presentation or hit on some key points uh I'll leave that up to you as how you want to proceed cuz I know You' got a full agenda as usual um is there anyone I'm okay with an abbreviated version if if the rest of the council is I'm sure we all watch the LPA hearing um if John you're all right with that yeah I I saw the LPA hearing as well K and I I think uh in the interest of time the uh just just the highlights and also uh people I think would be interested in also the construction timeline and when you hope to be open gotcha on yeah just go through you know the design the site design and the pictures I think so people can get an understanding Jim's going to be your first customer very good I have one have one a little closer to me already so yeah might be me front yard okay oh well hopefully you're agreeable to this they're looking at me right agreeable and underes underestimating as qu desire for this what we have before for you is the uh updated and current Master concept plan uh recognizing we have a stero Boulevard and it's at the corner of a stero and Lagoon uh you can see the orientation it is very consistent with uh what was pre-existing again for somebody who's watching this this like right across the street from Lin Hall Park correct yes correct uh and U so uh the orientation of the building is a setb and the main criteria be of why we had to manipulate late and we try it every which way is due to the uh flood zone uh location so the V flood zone you can see the yellow line right there that is the delineation between the V Zone and the AE zone so if it was forward of that and meeting those code requirements it would be an elevated uh structure not as convenient and appropriate for that type of use so luckily through the uh an appropriate through the CPD process we can request that deviation for these location and flexibility requirements parking along the front uh we also wanted to ensure that we had the proper pedestrian connectivity because we know the location adjacent to the park this more residential neighborhood and Orient uh orientation and context just allows just for better pedestrian movement to uh this location and uh 7-Eleven is concentrating on and understanding that this type of 7-Eleven has those kind of uh patrons so they're focusing on those kind of uses or the uh supplies and the convenient uh elements for the pedestrians and the location to the park um we have the dumpster location off of Lagoon Street uh we have orientated that to be um away from used to be closer to the rideway we had to push it back so it was outside of the RightWay and we have the proper uh vehicular movement and Manu and management uh for the vehicles uh these are these are the elevations uh similar to the prior 7-Elevens that we've presented before you the classic dumpster and one of our dumpster uh deviations is to allow for that height uh which is what we've added and we had that discussion at the LPA that we thought that was appropriate to be consistent and that's just a an appropriate request here are the uh renderings and elevations of the 7-Eleven this is looking from Estero Boulevard this is at the corner of Estero and Lagoon Street looking towards uh the corner of the building with that that's uh that's my best ability to abbreviate this what's your timeline Ken for construction right so as as we have stated previously we're looking at from uh hopefully approval at the second uh reading for this approximately a 10 to 12 month process to get through the development order establishing uh those permits Etc and then from that approximately maybe a 6 to n month construction period so just just for educational purposes when did you say 9 to 12 months just to get the permitting correct that's what we're estimating well can you walk through that just from an educational standpoint I'm always curious to see what folks are up against yeah well it's not necessarily up against any of the what we're dealing with with the town it's on our side we have to establish the application work through the construction documents making sure those are all code compliant uh etc etc so there's a development order process that we have to prepare for and then submit and then we go through a review process with the town staff and then there's also um oh sure yes you can speak to the good morning Elizabeth fountain with J.R Evans engineering for the record we also have to go through uh the D cccl permitting process because of the Coastal Construction Control line is located on the property so that process in itself will take several months to go through wow sorry that's okay thank you sorry for the town manager it might be it was a little longer but you're going have to drive for your slurp so there's just the sequence of the proper permitting that we have to go through to reach that thank you yes sir any other questions for the applicant so if this gets Prov it's three down and one more to go we uh for us we are done with our the three so the one at the far end uh the southern end is open so I'm sure you've all recognized that and then uh there's also off Island the 7-Eleven just off island is now up and operational as well so uh we know know when there might be another opportunity for one coming into town but hopefully we can be a part of that and work with you to get that one open too so all right all right sir and and I'll apologize because I did leave off that last deviation um at the LPA there was a discussion regarding uh having another deviation for the dumpster enclosure being um 7 ft no higher than 7et 6 in and that would just be consistent with the other two that were already proved that's correct okay are there we'll Now open up the public comment unless anyone has any other questions for Sarah no are there any members of the public who would wish to comment on this matter if so please come forward to the podium and identify yourself provide your address and whether you were sworn in anyone here for public comment on this public hearing no seeing none we'll close public comment are there any additional comments rebuttal or closing statements from the applicant no no no I will now close the public hearing and request a discussion or a motion from Town Council to approve approve with conditions or deny with reasons or a continuance to a Time certain mayor goad I I'll move resolution 24- 99 DCI 2023 0197 841 in stero Boulevard with the conditions of approval from the LPA I'll second excuse me there was a typo on the um on the agenda this is first reading of an ordinance so it's it would be approval of the ordinance as presented and schedule a second reading and final adoption on May 17 2024 at 9:00 a.m. June yeah that's June 3rd okay June 3rd at 9:00 a.m. and you could just say so moved so moved thank you I'll res second that okay we got a motion by councelor King seconded by councelor Safford any further discussion help from attorney Vos yeah with the assist from Becky uh all right councelor King how do you vote I councelor Safford I Vice may adhal I and mayor allers I'm an i as well thank you very much see you on the third next is resolution uh oh next is a resolution of the Town Council of the town of Fort Meers Beach Florida approving approving with conditions or denying variance v202 40084 requesting a variance from LDC 34-11 74 subsection B to allow a pickle ball court closer to Street than the principal building in the RS zoning district for the property located at 6140 Court Street providing for clarifications as necessary providing in for conflicts of law scrier errors severability and providing for an effective date if there is any Town council member has had any expart communication to disclose please let us know the subject diso disclosed or discussed and identity of the person group or entity with whom the communication took place any correspondence that you received or observations made of the site uh councelor King just the two emails that were forwarded us this morning Vice May H uh same situation I am in the same situation councelor equally okay excuse me Jason SMY has been qualified as an expert already by This Town Council and based on his education and experience has been accepted as an expert in the field of land use planning and development in the town of Fort Meers Beach are there any other individuals with who would like to be qualified as an expert witness on behalf of the applicant at this time seeing none has the property owner applicant seen a copy of the agenda it agenda backup materials from staff yes they have okay go ahead Jason good morning counselor staff my name is Jason SMY I'm with your planning and zoning department as was mentioned uh previously by the mayor uh the request today before you uh is in regards to 6140 Court Street the applicant requires a variance simply because the structure itself is forward of the primary structure uh the proposed layout of the structure uh I.E the pickle ball court uh will meet side setback backs and Front Street setbacks so again the the request today is simply because it is forward of the home uh the applicants uh the C the applicant and their representative are here and as you mentioned earlier uh since the LPA meeting we have received two letters of concern regarding the project in general they were concerned with noise and other nuisances that might be um brought by approval of the project the LPA had recommended approval uh unanimous approval for this project and staff is here for any questions that you may have questions for Jason Vice May Jason I I don't expect you to know the answer to this because I'm struggling myself uh one of the letters of objection or emails of objection is from 60 Flamingo trying to get a s sense of the proximity of 60 Flamingo to the applicant's location maybe they'll have a comment on that I think the other uh email of objection does not have an address just trying to understand where folks are and where they live and how close they are to the neighborhood so so we can defer to the applicant on this but I didn't know if you had a chance to look at that I believe we looked at it earlier this morning uh we would characterize both applicant or both uh letters being within a couple blocks of the proposed law couple blocks um one is all across the street one house over um one is across the street meaning a stero no across Court Street uh one house so it's on the corner of Flamingo and Court Street um and then the other one is on the corner of Shelby in Flamingo thank you Jason before you run off just to kind of piggyback on the question of what is the buffer that they're going to have if you can just explain that if they're listening they can they can hear so the applicant has uh taken the initiative to to present a land landcaping plan uh that Landscaping plan is obviously going to be much more than as minimally required so there will be some buffer uh from a landscape material that will help to buffer any sounds coming off of that uh aside from that it's going to be just distance to the uh the neighbor's property that's going to dissipate any of that sound okay thanks Jason you're welcome with the applicant please come up and and while the applicant's coming up Sarah if you're I don't know if you're looking at these addresses is while while they're while they're presenting if you could give us a little bit more a better sense of the distance uh distance uh from corner to corner is 100 ft approximately um for one and the other one is approximately 200 feet Yes okay thank you car good morning Cara Stewart for the record I'm here representing the owners of 6140 Court Street Mr and Mrs kic they are here as well in the audience um it's a relatively simple request and unfortunately the design in the beginning um had had placed the structure forward uh closer to the gulf right right adjacent to the 78 line it's only recently that they've decided they'd like to add a a pickle Bow Court the property is redesigned currently with a very enhan of landscape plan around the entire court between the sidey yard the front of a stero and then again on the other adjacent side the comments from uh the neighbors we just were made aware of them right now as well um we had not known that anyone was of any concern and it just so happens that when I first looked at it as well I thought oh the noise um that's common comment that people have um in this instance it is no bearing on this application those um the use of a pickle ball court to further clarify is permitted by right and it's just that we're in front of our single family if we would had placed it behind it uh there is no issue the applicant is also in agreement to comply with the noise ordinance and will will uh adhere to the requirements of that so we're here if there's any questions or any comments anything we can help clarify car then you would be okay if staff added that as one of the conditions I believe there was something stated at LPA as far as the noise ordinance goes in there if that if we need that in there that's not a problem it it goes without saying everyone has to comply with it so and Jason said that the Landscaping is going to be more enhanced than what would be required by Wright could you just kind of go into what that is it going to be full grown vegetation that goes in or is it something that's going to have to grow into size some of the plantings on the Landscaping plan are called for are higher than you know 6 in they're they're 18 in um I can probably ask the owner if they have a clearer definition on that but when we look at the plan there's staggered plantings and the plantings that get planted will be some of them are higher than others okay any other questions for Cara carara and Becky could you comment again on what you just said about having a pickle ball court by right versus needing a variance correct the the actual use of a pickle ball court on this property is allowed in general if our structure if our single family had been placed further towards uh Court Street and we had the room to locate it behind the principal structure we wouldn't be here today so the the the use of the pickle ball court is allowed by right no different than someone having a swimming pool an activity in their swimming pool somebody playing basketball on their BAS basketball court in their front yard it's it's no different Becky I not that I don't I just want additional comment on that car or uh Becky because you you you see uh National Publications like the Wall Street Journal you talking about this pickle ball noise debate all over the country is are you in concurrence with with Cara's assessment of of of of of that of the concept of having a pickle ball court by right assuming it's it's appropriately uh zoned um could Sarah address this I I think she probably would know better thank you uh yeah we would consider this a residential accessory structure unless they were allowing uh people to pay and utilize their Court as like a public facility so this is considered uh private residential accessory use Cara just to try to give some comfort to neighbors I just I'll just give an example uh where we've now moved back into Bay Beach Lane and and ebia that the old golf course has now has pickleball courts and they're pretty far away from everything but there are a number of folks in the condos who are concerned about the noise that that's currently going on right now uh and it's a little bit of a challenge even though the Pickle books distance-wise are pretty good far distance away I wonder if the applicant would be willing and it's I I watched them during the LPA hearing they seem like nice people and and they're care care about their neighbors could we put some hours on this pickle ball court so it's to give them some comfort that that these that this is going to be going on at in early in the morning or in the evening or what do we have the ability to do that is lighting proposed there's no lighting prop I know there's no lighting I remember that from the LPA hearing but I just from an hour standpoint you know sometimes the sun gets up pretty early in the morning and uh people want to I know there's roosters in Key West but to wake up to pickle ball in the morning at at 7:00 in the morning might be a lot for a neighbor just again in the interest of Comedy with their neighbors and I maybe the applicant would want to comment on it if they would be willing to kind of at least give give some peace to their neighbors by by putting some kind of a restriction on it because when this went through the LPA I thought well this is great and obviously all the neighbors are cool and if if the neighbors are good I'm good but if you got a couple neighbors who are worried I just trying to give them some peace try to find a middle ground here I won't speak for the owner I'll ask them to come up and response to that but what I will say is that you do have a noise ordinance already in place which really would accommodate and and keep you consistent with the rest of the other residential uses that people have on their properties so I'm I'm not sure if adding an additional hour restriction is something that they'll want to do but we'll ask them um but again it's no different than any other accessory use it's different in the sense that you're asking for special consideration here this morning right forward of the principal structure which which if we look at that um the other um what's the word I'm looking for consideration is that in that location for the immediate neighbors they're actually the N all the neighbors are much forward also there everybody's homes are being constructed along the 78 Line This pickle Bow Court is Way Forward of that which would you would think that would be the most most affected neighbors are those right adjacent to them and um the location of it in this place right now will actually enhance that separation as far as the neighbor around the corner we'll ask the owner um again I'm a little just personally a little hesitant to say that so okay um could I mention that I looked up our noise ordinance and the two classifications of time relating to noise are from 7:00 a.m. to 10: p.m. and then the the really low debal level is from 10: p.m. to 7:00 a.m. so I'll let the applicants speak maybe you have maybe you have a Kinder and gentler approach to this whole thing probably not but I'll try I'm Carrie kedik my wife Laura and I own the property um I'm not going to play before 700 in the morning I guarantee you it's purely recreational it's our family home it's our forever home we want to keep the the family together the kids coming down to see us we want to give them every excuse in the world to come spend time on FMB with us um I when we check our maps on these two contentions I'm not sure they're anywhere near our property one we're fairly certain is is a mile down in a stero Cove um some friends of ours know that person and if they're in that condo complex I I'm not sure they should have any input on this on this decision um might just be complainers maybe they do I don't know if uh we would do whatever we have to do to to get this court put in Legally so um you know if if we need to make it some kind of structured hours and that's the deal breaker we'll certainly do it we're not allow we're not a low group um we could have 10 guys out shooting baskets in the driveway at 8: in the morning and that would be fully legal so I don't I think people are maybe just casting stones and there's only two and they're not our immediate so um we we could have brought a lot of support from people if if we knew there was any contention but you didn't get it till this morning so we were blindsided by it but um we just we don't understand the issue it it's not allow sport so Vic man I don't I was just you you brought up a maybe a different time you seem like you're aable to a different time frame between the S and 10 do you have any recommend I I see what you're saying about trying to alleviate maybe I don't know if it's a morning thing or an afternoon thing that they would be concerned with with the noise but I'll let you yeah it's a tough one in the sense that you know when I I watch the lp hearing obviously you know you're going through the process fully transparent this came just this morning puts everybody in a tough spot but put put yourself in our shoes We're just trying to make sure everybody gets heard trying to find a middle ground here try to keep everybody happy it's always hard to do um I play pickle ball not very successfully the mayor much better than I do but but the uh play tennis very well either well that's that's a debate that we could have later uh just trying to figure out how to try to to demonstrate that we're taking the concerns of these neighbors seriously and and certainly what again again at the LPA there was no remonstrator and and uh but again word travels after the sometimes people watch the lp LPA hearing and then they'll hear of the the issue just see if you could help us help you um I don't have an answer I don't I'm libertarian by nature but you you are potentially infringing on someone else's rights as well so that's why I'm trying to find that see if there's a middle ground there um just thinking out loud what if I made a suggestion you said you're not going to be playing at seven what what to help alleviate some of it would like8 to eight beir I think I think I'm Laura Kik hi I think that sounds fair and I think it's also goes along with what the actual noise ordinance already is and um at the last meeting we did have supporters there that we didn't even know that were our neighbors that they came they introduced them to to us afterwards they like we came to support you guys just and they live in coina right behind us so like closer than these other people that are even commenting and we had never even met them before so we definitely would have support from closer people and people that don't even know us and our next door neighbor she was in full support of it she didn't we didn't ask her to come today or anything but so you'd be in support of the 8 to8 I only said that those numbers because it's it's dark usually at 8:00 you're not you're not getting lights so I mean if you're okay with it and that maybe gives a little bit more I don't know what word I want to use but U for the neighbors that did write in at the last minute this this morning is that something that 8 a.m. is perfectly fine I mean yeah I don't think it's it's pretty dark at 8:00 p.m. like Sunset right now was 8:10 so I think 9:00 p.m. would be perfect for us which is kind of like what the music ordinance was for like Pinchers or Outrigger so I think 8 to 900 p.m. you know just daylight hours and not before 8:00 a.m. is I think a more fair and part of it goes to you don't want to be playing at 300 P p.m. in the afternoon it's so hot out like no one wants to pay you go by any pickle ball court there is no one on the courts in the afternoon it's like a it's when the weather is more tolerable um so that's kind of our this is our daughter T who loves pickle ball she goes to University of Tampa and plays there you know with friends and everything and she's here visiting us so 8 to eight or 8 to n is we think that's fair yeah okay I 9 o' I mean that's I think that's fair too it's an hour I mean you're not going to have lights anyway so you're not play did not propose lights nope we appreciate your who knows maybe they glow in the dark pickle ball the dark and it was mentioned in the other meeting we're not renting our property we're not going to have like tournaments where people are coming to pay it's going to be like our family and just like our relatives that come visit us that's what our proposal is or it's not a rental property no whenever your guys are ready to take on the who your slicer in the Minnesota go you'll be sorry you threw that up yeah as soon as I started talking I was all right thank you guys thank you so much thank you is everyone in support of that condition of the nine I think it's ridiculous to have well quite honestly I I think I agree with you uh councelor S I mean they're already doing a landscaping they're already um one of the conditions of approval was to comply with the noise ordinance so how how are you going to enforce this this is that's just silly it' be the same you're a Libertarian I mean sunrise to sunset I mean come on you and I play tennis at 7 in the morning listen I I'm just I I know this is a debate that's that's raging around the country right now on the pickle ball front I want them to they seem like lovely people I want them to I just we had these came this morning we're just trying to find comedy uh peace in the valley if you will uh it's not easy but if you guys if if you don't if you object to that that's fine I I just I I think sunrise and sunset it's perfectly fine and that in essence will be the time since they're not going to have lights anyways why put 8:00 I mean they start playing at 7:45 and we're going to call code enforcement I mean come on we got bigger things to do here and just trying to find a middle ground but I I I if if if the council feels strongly about sticking with the way it is that's fine too I'm certainly not going to die in the vine over an hour or two I'm not either but to answer your question Conor Safford the code enforcement would be the same no matter what time of day it is whether it's at 78 nine or 10 they they still do the same thing so right how you're going to enforce it would be the same way you'd enforce it but again I'm not going to die in the vine over an hour either way but it you want to play in the dark with the bugs I I guess I guess God bless you guys but you guys they should be able to play during the daylight I mean that's my opinion any other questions for the applicant okay public comment are there any members of the public who wish to comment on this matter if so please come forward to the podium and identify yourself provide your address and whether you were sworn in anyone that would like to speak in public comment seeing them we'll close close it bring it back are there any additional comments rebuttal or closing statements from the applicant no okay I'll now close the public hearing and request a discussion or a motion from Town Council to approve approve with conditions deny with reasons or a continuance to a Time certain mayor I'll move resolution 24-96 v224 0084 6140 Court Street only with the conditions of approval from the LPA I'll second got a motion by councelor King seconded by councelor Safford uh any further discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I I I opposed oh Sor roll call I'm sorry okay councelor King I councelor Safford hi vice mayor Ed hi mayor Al is an i motion carries unanimously uh next is item C resolution it's a resolution of the Town Council of the town of Fort Meers Beach Florida approving approving with conditions denying special exception sez 2024 0069 to allow for the replacement slrep of a Sund deck pool patio retaining wall and a fence in the environmental critical easy zoning district for the property located at 8:30 Estero Boulevard providing for scrier errors severability and effective date if any Town council member has any expart communication to disclose please let us know the subject discussed and the identity of the person group or entity with whom the communication took place and any correspondence that you received or operation observations made made of the site councelor Safford I do not I do not either Vice none councelor King none that I recall okay Jason SMY has been qualified as an expert already by This Town Council and based on his education and experience has been accepted as an expert in field of land use planning and development in the town of Fort Meers Beach are there any individuals any other individuals who would like to be qualified as an expert witness on behalf of the applicant at this time seeing none go ahead Jason good morning counselor again my name is Jason SMY I'm with your planning and zoning department as was mentioned before uh the Edison Beach condominium uh is applying for a special exception uh they're located at 8:30 Estero Boulevard they're requesting a special exception to rebuild uh a few different aspects of their of their uh outside pool deck the cccl line the 1978 line is the reason that we're here today some of the uh some of the structures these are accessory in nature do extend seaward so towards the gulf from this 1978 line uh as best we can tell there's about 20 feet or excuse me about 10 ft uh between the line and and the edge of their pool deck uh what they're requesting here is to replace what was there before so we're talking about a Sund deck uh Pool Patio a retaining wall and a fence that would run along the back edge of the property so that's what they're that's what they're hoping to uh replace I just wanted to make the point that in the original iteration of the staff report uh it was mentioned that they were looking to replace uh some foot showers and shower structures uh through the LPA and through uh and through discussions with staff we believe that those are actually already landward of the 1978 line so what's being requested today is the deck pool patio retaining wall and the fence so it would not be inclusive of uh of excuse me foot or normal showers uh the staff is here for any question that you may have and I believe uh the applicant's representative is here as well okay questions for Jason no no Vice May concer King Noone I don't have any this time either thanks Jason would the applicant like to come up and good morning good morning hi everyone my name is Matthew Bert I'm the general manager of the Edison beach house at 8:30 of St at Boulevard um we're just trying to repair back to where we were after the hurricane um right now we're almost there we've got the building almost done uh we're just waiting to get the pool finished it's a repair on the pool cuz the pool shell did make it the pool is holding water um it's just we need to repipe it get the deck around it and all that in the sun deck and get of course get the fence around it to make it safe and secure so really that's all we're we're asking is just to kind of get back to where we were we don't want to add anything extra or nothing like that we just want to repair what was there okay any questions for Matthew John none Jim nothing thank you than no sir I do not have't either all right thank you thank you everyone for all you done thank you I'll now open it up for public comment are there any members of the public who would wish to comment on this matter if so please come forward to the podium and identify yourself provide your address and whether you were sworn in is there any public comment seeing none are there any additional comments rebuttal CL or closing statements from the applicant no okay I will now close the public hearing and request a discussion or a motion from the Town Council to approve approve with conditions or deny with reasons or a continuance to a Time certain mayor I'll move resolution 24- 97 sc202 40069 830 Estero Boulevard I'll second had a motion by councelor King seconded by councelor Safford any further discussion councelor King hi counc Safford hi vice mayor edle and I am an i as well congratulations looking forward to seeing you get that open the next item is D do um Becky do I have to read the whole thing even though we haven't received any objections yes I I would read the whole thing and then ask if somebody is in the audience got it next is a res is resolution 29 2498 v v variance 202 40088 614 is Boulevard a resolution of the Town Council of the town of Fort Meers Beach Florida approving approving with conditions or denying variance 202 40088 a request for two variances from the LDC table 34-3 to decrease required Street setback by 17t 6 in from the required 25 ft and to reduce the rear setback by 12T 1 in from the required 20 ft in the RM zoning district for the property located at 614 EST stero Boulevard and providing for an effective date uh as to date we have not received any objections since the LPA hearing is there anyone here that would like to speak in public comment seeing none where do we go from here man okay um you could just put the written information that's in the agenda in the record okay and then you could have a motion to approve and go forward from there okay is there a motion to approve mayor I'll move that we put the information that was in the agenda into the official record and then move approval of resolution 24- 98 okay we got a motion by vice mayor edal I'll second it any further discussion Vice may edal I mayor allers and I counc Safford hi ccor King hi motion carries unanimously next is our administrative agenda it is there's nothing really to read in is there um just announce this is the time for the bid protest and ask the protester to make a presentation okay this is the time for the bid this for the bid protest hearing it B-24 03- the sterile Island beach nourishment and hurricane recovery project would the protester like to come up and okay great thank you uh good morning everybody U my name is John Sullivan with Ken Marine from galson Texas so pass this out real quick thank you I like that thanks sir very fancy the bar thank you sir I don't okay all right great well good morning thank you all for um uh listening to my presentation so as a mention I'm with Callum Marine um I'm president of Callen Marine in the in one of the owners uh we are a dredger uh mainly on the Gulf Coast but we do dredge on the East Coast as well uh we were the number two bidder on this project and um you know there's we we're number two bids quite often on projects so you know it's not crying over spilled built by any by by any means but if you'll look in your package uh that we have there I kind of put in the presentation you can click through and I click through here as well if you'd like but what we really wanted to highlight here and we we spoke with Miss Voss and and Miss Baker the other day um about kind of our view of this project versus maybe what the low bidder was which was atna so first of all I want to establish we we have a lot of respect for atna and kavach that's yeah atna kavach dredging we know them well they actually one of our sister companies is partners with Oto on a couple projects so no bad feelings at all with them they're they're very qualified for what they do we view this as an offshore dredging project and the reason why we say that is the borrow area is 1.5 miles off of the the beach um if you look at the biders on the project there was only one Inland dredger that really bid the project everybody else that bid the projects were were all offshore dredgers C Mar Weeks Marine uh Great Lakes and there was one more that I think did not have a qualified bid uh and I think actually great likes might have been for whatever reason uh uh was not qualified either or not qualified they didn't have a full package so the numbers are quite different um otna at 22 million uh we are at 30 just over 37 million uh Weeks Marine which is is who is the largest treaser in the country um was at 38 million what makes us all different really is we are an Oceano we have uh basically three Oceano dredges that can dredge offshore they can sit in high winds high seas uh we're fully crude all the time um it is a you know like I said an ABS class vessel um technically atna with their dredge can and I say this technically they can legally they can sit in that spot one and a half miles offshore there's a technical side and there's really should you or should you not um as you all know by the way I'm from galon Texas so I know exactly what you're going through with hurricane inan um you need your beaches open I mean this is four Myers Beach uh just like we are galson Island and the lifeblood of our community is actually getting the beaches back up and going quickly um so we understand what you're going through and we understand it's it's expensive and and it takes a lot of money but the our argument here is is that not that otna is not a qualified dredger we don't think they're qualified we don't think they have the equipment to safely both for their people and environmentally do that project secondly and that's and I kind of go through that a little bit here um the first slide just shows uh the gentle McArthur which is a dredge that we have put on this project um she is actually the largest uh cutterhead suction dredge in the country um she's a 32in dredge and has 24,000 horsepower um so there's a little depiction there that kind of shows the General MacArthur compared to otna dretch uh that's right in front of the General MacArthur um as you can see and it's not we're not trying to to belittle ota's dredge we have little dredges too um it's just not an offshore dredge we are an offshore dredge um if you go to the next page this describes um uh the Katy John which is otna Dredge we have one actually we have um three that are very similar uh to the Katie John uh this one is actually an Elicott dredge um uh which is a manufacturer uh we have uh some that are similar there called DSC dredges but those are all Inland what we call Brown waterer dredges they sit inside uh uh the coastal zone um those dredges usually have a foot and a half to twoot of freeboard um so they can handle chop but whenever you start getting any swells or if you get some big waves with winds uh you can easily overcome that dredge and and and swamp it um and as you all know being Coastal folks um the weather can turn very very fast very very quickly and as a dredger you want to keep dredging as long as you can and then all of a sudden when when it's pass the time to safely leave you've already lost it and so that that's our big concern with h dredge um I also and I'm not going to read y'all the presentation because y'all can could you just just for educational purposes so when how long does it take to for for the smaller dredging uh uh device here that's your both that you're we looking at how long does it take to get out of Harm's Way uh if if they see bad weather coming sure so um they are most dredges and I and I actually saw their response um they have what's called a ball and Bell which is a basically a quick connect on the back of the dredge we have those as well those are pretty easy to come off you can when the when the weather starts getting bad you can basically unhook from your pipeline get your dredge tenders and and pull your anchors pull your spuds and you can move in pretty darn quick if the weather hasn't turned too too quick but mostly little dredge tenders that are with Dred with with um uh and we we have the little dredge tenders that we have we probably have 14 or 15 of them that are the size that that otna has they only have a foot to a foot and a half a freeboard too so when they start to get swamped they get swamped um and you can lose them and sink them very very quickly so by the time that it's time to get the dredge out of the way in many cases The Dredge tenders the little tugboats that are with them it's too late to get them out of the way too is the is the inference you're making that they they wouldn't be able to to escape in time for a hurricane type storm or or just regular choppy Waters they'd be vulnerable as well uh I would say both both yes sir okay for sure you know with the hurricane usually we can see him coming um uh but you know uh a really good strong afternoon Squall um can really get pretty hairy and you know we would we would never as as our company we wouldn't put our men or women but but we wouldn't put our our guys on a smaller vessel where this borrow areas we just wouldn't it would it' be uh it's not safe in our opinion are there are there state and federal Regulators who determine whether a job is safe for the appropriate equipment or is that just your own professional opinion is there is there some sort of a regulatory entity that that makes an official uh uh either inspection or or or or approval that says you can do a job like this based upon the equipment you have or is this is it just sort of professional best practices within the within the industry it's really it's professional um best practices if you actually look at the rules they can be out there I mean they from a coast guard standpoint you can actually bring bring a vessel that's not ABS certified uh coastwise and this would be in the coastwise wise zone so so they absolutely can be there and they can work there is it the right thing to do so your your your contention is that they're not violating any particular regulatory statute or code it's just best they VI potentially violating best practices is that that's exactly right yes yeah I do not think that they are breaking any rules okay at all so um we we did throw in a couple of the codes that that we all try to to follow as as dredgers or Mariners uh about you know best practices on seaworthy vessels for the job and so that's where we kind of think this is a little bit gray U because we don't believe that that vessel is seaworthy for that job it's seaworthy no doubt but is it sew worthy for that job and that's where we say that it's not in our opinion um so I have a couple slides there the next thing I just want to point out um here is the this job was bid twice one in January 24 uh Ken bid it uh we're 36 6.2 weeks bid at 30 they were the low bidder uh at 36.0 32 um Great Lakes and ATA did not bid that time it was over budget and the timing was a little tough too because the expect the the uh to get a dredge there it was almost a really quick trigger uh it was rebid again in March 2024 um and these are the results here Ken came in at 37.1 Weeks 38.7 um Great Lakes was at 50 million but I think they actually got their bid pulled because maybe something wasn't complete and then of course the low bidder was hot at 21.7 the reason we throw this out there to to show you is if you look at the different vessels that were planning to come to this whether it be Weeks Marine great lakes or Kalen compared to OTA you can see there's something very very different we really are looking the the big dredgers so there's um I would say Kalen Great Lake and weeks are the biggest competitors on the G Coast um clearly in in Great Lakes and weeks are the largest treasers in the country Count's one of the top five if you look all the big guys clearly looked at it one way um one of the small tregers didn't and so when you look and say you know which one doesn't look like the other it's it's OTA and it's because you know they bid with an inland Inland dredge and an offshore environment so I just want to point that out there just a quick question the the the concept of of using an inland dredge offshore which is what you're alleging is happening under the the the successful bidder um has it happened have have there been other instances in Southwest Florida where an inland dredge has worked offshore successfully oh yes many times and and and actually in fact uh this project was done by a company by the name of uh Florida drend do or maybe uh I think it was Florida dring dog is is it your contention that they were just lucky yes okay it is my contention yes yes sir sure do um and I will tell you I mean we just finished dredging an inlet with one of our bigger Inland dredges and it was I can tell you I will never do that again and this was a couple months ago absolutely legal to do it but even getting into the jetty area we really came close to to putting the dredge on the rocks and that was a much bigger dredge than even what otna is bidding that's one of our uh that's called The General Marshall so the next thing I want to uh point out this job had and this is kind of the responsiveness to the bid the bid called this project to be done in 180 days uh it gave a little bit of a grace period to 195 days if you look at all the big dredgers we brought dredges that could complete this project within that time frame as example Le um uh calend we can complete it in 90 days um so we just brought a big a big dredge for what the the bid requirements asked for um otna gave a list um of some of their past projects and their production they also listed their production um if you see here this is a table that they they produced on average they did 2,300 cubic yards an hour or I'm sorry 2300 cubic yards a day on these projects every Project's different totally get that but on their own production on this bid they said that they could do I believe it was 350 cubic yards a day an hour I'm sorry and so on their best case with their production their best case um they would complete this job in 292 days so that is uh 180 days 195 days is what the bid requirements called for there are liquidated damages of $33,750 a day um so they would be subject to that on a $22 million job does that really affected that big of a de big you know that much impact not really it' be you know maybe $400,000 in LDS um they may they may have quoted that in there but the bid requirement said 195 days we responded to the bid requirements um in nna's own documents they did not so they they clearly said that it'll be done much later after the bid is Du so we don't believe it's even a responsive bid so there's responsible meaning do you have the right vessel there's responsive did you did you respond to the bid requirements uh and we don't believe they did so now using their averages you look at the next sheet um worst case and this is without major weather impacts they may be done in 45 days so over a year so I brought up you know we all know the lifeblood of of a Beach Community is their Beach well you need a beach you don't need a pipeline running down the beach with booster pumps and all those things screaming at night you know we just talked about pickle ball um uh OT is going to have booster pumps sitting on the beach to to get this material down the beach so that's going to be loud there's going to be trucks running up and down um you know for what Ken and weeks and Great Lakes what we would have done we have no booster pumps on our equipment the dredges have the capabilities to get it all the way to the beach on their own with no boosters so we'll have Shore equipment you know spreading the sand out but we'll be marching down the beach pretty darn quick so I wanted to go ahead and give yall uh on on this sheet again best case atna 292 days they're done by April worst case July Ken we uh General MacArthur is over in Grand a Louisiana right now she has a million yards to put on the beach there um we have changed our schedule around a little bit that we would be ready to move from there directly to here um we would most likely be started pumping by 91 and we would be done by the end of November so there's a talk and there's I know that that that um if there's an emergency you know that's that's why you're saying that that you can go with or that's that's why U um you know the the the emergency is to get it done by Hurricane Season what to get it done by Hurricane Season you don't want to use ATA you want to use it us um and so we would be done by the end of November and again no booster pumps are pipeline would be up and down the beach in 90 days we'd be we'd be wrapping it up pretty quickly so that hopefully would not impact your tourism um and uh U Turtles and things like that we would we would be in and out of here again also remember Anna has to have several booster pumps we don't have to have any um and so uh we'll get it to the beach in one shot John you you'd made a comment about there was a daily fee if you go past the 180 days and You' made reference that now that there's no way that they could make that 180 days but that same fee would apply to you so is it fair to say that it's you you could tell us 90 days but you could easily go 250 days and and you would still be subject to the same thing so you're you're just basically saying that you know there's no way they can make the 180 days therefore that fee is going to be imposed on them but you're claiming that you will have it done in 90 days and come nowhere near the 180 days yes sir that's right I mean we could have major breakdown we could have something that goes wrong and and we would be subject to LDS as well the difference is we brought a piece of equipment that can complete it in the 195 days they're bringing in a a piece of equipment that they're already telling you they will not complete in 195 days so that's why we're saying it's not even a responsive bid so but absolutely we are subject to the same LDS um by the way uh in in in the engineer um we have all do respect for these folks we work with them everywhere the engineer that that did the plans also gave their opinion letter and I'm sure he'll speak to you to you here shortly um on the The Dredge production um his estimate is that ot's dredge can do double Whata is even is even claiming and I'm here to tell you that somebody that owns eight drudges that that um we dredge up and down uh the Gulf Coast this dredge cannot do what the engineer is claiming they cannot do it it just it physically it the the math is not going to work once you put that through all these pipelines and through all the boosters it's just not going to with with this grain size of of sand it will not be able to do what what the engineer is claiming John have you gotten to this page here yet no sir but I'm that's next that's next can I ask you a question on that page sure so a couple things this is this isa's map here or is this your map this map is so if you look there's pipeline route one so there's a there's a basically a a northern part um of of the beachville and then there's a a southern Point uh part so pipeline route one is an improved uh pipeline route that we will all use and we'll send the pipeline in then at that point we'll run north finish off the north section of the beach and then we'll run south pipeline route two is what would utilize to get to the southern tip of for Myers Beach so just for us L folks out here there's two pipes that will be utilized for north and south end of the island and then is it these boosters that you're talking about that gets it to the mid island or do we truck that or how what happens so there is an option to truck although that's not what otna bid um uh they bid to pump everything just like we did what we did on on this map this is showing what we expect if we were to run the production on OT dredge which again we have dredges like that so I think we're we're pretty qualified to do that um what this is showing is at their best case how far they will make it down the beach in that kind of a rough duration so now so this is not us us we'd be in and out of here 90 days we'd have it all done um but this is what we estimate on you p a picture for somebody who might live along the beach what what what they would experience under your proposal versus uh the the Victorious proposal in in the sense that you reference these boosters and the noise and and and and you would need to spread the same just kind of walk us through as lay people what it's going to look like on the beach for folks as as as as it gets renourish sure yes that's good very good question actually so we will as our pipeline comes up so we have a 32inch pipe so it's big um and it's about that big uh big steel pipe then we will also have plas big HB um plastic pipe it will come up go to the beach uh we'll have a submerged line that'll go all the way to the beach that way boats can go over they will all be marked um once it gets to the beach we'll go left or right depending on the the uh the direction at the end of the pipe we will have bulldozers that are working 24 hours a day a day just like atna we'll probably have three or four dozers working because we'll be pumping 20 to 30,000 cubic yards a day and so as we there's a a template on the beach that you're doing and I can't recall exactly what it was whether it be 100 cubic yards per linear foot or 200 yards per per linear foot as we fill the beach template as per the design we will basically add pipe and keep going down and we'll have bulldozers that'll spread it out and then grade it all out pipe separate from the pipeline Route One in other words it'll go the it go along the pipe will go along the beach that's correct and so what we'll do is we'll build little uh ramps over our pipe um so that way pedestrians can get back and forth um we'll have to have vehicular ramps in case uh you know of emergencies and things like that otna will do the same thing the difference is ota's pipe will be about that big our pipe will be about that big but we're going to be moving down the beach very quickly and we'll have bulldozers and loaders it's going to be inconvenient and just so I understand the physics of this from pipeline Route One to Mid Island you're literally going to be P piping in these other small pipes or will you eventually have to move pipeline one closer to the mid Island no sir we we will just end up adding pipe as we go down the beach and you can force that sand through not only through pipeline one to the island but then all along the beach you just you can force that sand all the way through right we will we will do it without a booster pump explain to us the so a booster pump is basically um uh it's a it's a pump halfway through so you have the the sand is being pushed the sand and water is being pushed with the dredge itself once it slows down the velocity slows down the sand starts to settle down at the bottom of the pipe and you basically need to boost it up again and get it moving do it because you have a larger pipe and more power or you you don't need the booster right yes we're we're we have on pump horsepower on our dredge we have 16,000 pump horsepower on our dredge and the downside to the Boost is just the noise you say the noise right right so they'll have land boosters and we do it all the time we just finished a job with one of our smaller dredges with 45,000 ft of pipe and we had three boosters along on the way so it's done I mean it's it's it's a common occurrence uh but they're loud and you know uh uh they're they're on the beach just again we've got a lot of folks watching you kind of give us an idea of what to expect just in your experience given the size of this project uh will people see a dramatic difference in the beach when this is done uh meaning the beach condition yes oh absolutely yeah this is a describe what the difference would be from your perspective you know I think that the beach template I don't have the point I do have the points I think the beach a massive project I just don't I don't know if folks fully appreciate it's a massive project how radical how how will the beach look different from your perspective as a professional the beach will probably be about 100 feet wider I believe uh and we'll ask engineer and I've got the plans I can pull it out right now and give you that answer but um it's putting another million yards on the beach so that's quite a bit of s and the sand Barrow site where the site where the sand is coming from you you you're you're you're of the opinion I don't want to put words in your mouth but that's high quality standand it is um the engineer that's that's your engineer that designed the project did viore analysis of the sand and sand grabs it's a really high quality sand very thank you and that's uh this this map shows where the borrow source is it's a permitted borrow Source it has to be taken from that area we have a minimum debt that we have to bring it down to and uh based on it was surveyed November of 21 so we imagine it's probably changed a little bit uh but November 21 there's about 1.3 million cubic yards in that bar Source we're taking about a million yards out of there so we're going to basically clean it out and then you know the good Lord will bring it back that's that's a concept um and then finally the last page here um taking our opinion aside which I think we have uh uh uh we're pretty strong on um experience Ken but um Kyle Johnson who was uh with great lake stret and do who again is the largest uh public dredger in the country uh he was there for 30 or 40 years Kyle now has his own consulting firm he looked at our numbers independently um he verified that that uh he agrees with our production rates again he is a he's an engineer he's a dredge engineer so he did this all of his life uh he looked he he did small dredges he did Big dredges um he went and looked at our numbers the way we ran it he ran them independently and uh he also believes that from a production standpoint that we're right secondly he also um uh confirmed that he also would not put his people out there on a smaller vessel so um that's that's kind of a third party opinion that again we hired that third party opinion but they they do not work for Ken so John my my last question for you is is that we have a consultant that's been helping us with our renourishment Pro uh project for some time now Mike Poff who's got Decades of experience in this area it's my understanding and I'll I'll let the process proceed this morning but my understanding he's comfortable with the bidder that we've accepted with his experience and and a Litany of projects in Southwest Florida you just think he's got it wrong or what how do you how do you how do you wrestle with the fact that he's comfortable with where we're headed well respectfully I do believe he has it wrong yes sir I think that the production that he put is is double what even atna says they can do it's double what we've ever seen a dredge of that size do um and I just think that in practice with guys on a vessel getting back and forth with equipment breaking down with this grain size of sand I believe he has it wrong um and and I I say that with all due respect because I can't do what he does but we are dredgers we know this and I would love to make that production we'd make a lot more money but uh uh I've never seen a dredge or in any of our people at Kalen or Kyle Johnson has never seen a dredge do that and I don't think he'll see it on this job um uh not not at all so I I kind of wanted to end with one last comment I thought about this a lot you know if you had um to kind of put it a little bit into um a l person if you had you know you needed a sent or you needed to bypass surgery you know there's a lot of people go to medical school and they're doctors and we call them doctors but you're not going to go to your your family practice general practitioner to operate on your heart you're going to go to a heart surgeon and because he's the most qualified it doesn't matter what the cost is right um he's qualified he knows a heart maybe he can't tell you what what a broken bone looks like but um you want to go to the best qualified firm to do what's most important for you I would say for your Beach it's almost the same thing and so you need your Beach filled you need your tourism back why not go to the best qualified firms that can do this safely and uh uh and within the the bid response um finally we do a lot of FEMA funded projects most of this work um so 10% is coming from Fort Meers Beach 58% is coming from the D 26 almost 27% is coming from Lee County and then 5.9% is coming from FEMA um I believe that and we'd be happy to work and there's also another 5.8 million that is coming up in the next budget uh for more Beach nourishment for for Myers Beach so even though you have a budget of 24 million to do this project that doesn't mean you do it with a general practitioner right you want a heart surgeon to do your heart I would say um you need to go back to FEMA need to go back to the the PA firm that's that's working for Lee County and Fort Meers Beach and request additional money because you want to do it right you can't do it wrong and you can't kill people and and I'm telling you we've lost people and it's not good and we've never lost somebody like this because we stay safe but you can lose people like this and I would tell you that even though they fit in the budget that doesn't mean you should do it so I would say that at a minimum if you um I would ask that you at least give it two weeks to maybe go back to DP maybe go to Lee County maybe go to the the public assistance uh consultant working for the county and for the for the city and see if there's a way to petition FEMA for more money or for d for for more money to do the project right and to do it safely I think the budget was wrong in the first place clearly it's been bid twice in all offshore dredgers are 35 million plus the only Inland dredger is the one that came in in budget and I would just tell you that I think the budget was wrong in the first place and that you really needed 35 Plus million to do this job so John before before you go I just wanted since you talked about the money and in the percentage that you put out there even in the best case scenario if we could get FEMA and we could get the county we can get everybody to to decide to increase the amount of money we all know how fast FEMA moves and could that potential delay even if they were to say yes if we were to delay giving this contract to atna and moving forward with you is it fair to say that because of the way FEMA operates that the delay and what getting that funding could be added to your 90 days that you'd say you you'd be able to com I mean is it going to push the project out to 250 days anyway so the end result would be the same even if we were to pay more money and the second part of that question is even at that 10% that would be an additional $1.6 million to the taxpayers of Fort Meers Beach uh so I'm just a little concerned if if the delay in trying to get if they even agreed to do it to pay more money and we could get all these entities to step up and do it we would then have to get our taxpayers to be able to fund the other 1.6 million of that and if the end result is the same the job gets done I understand you're concern with safety we certainly we certainly appreciate that but if the end result is going to be the same the beach gets done I think you you have said that they can do the job it's not probably the safest way and you know I'm not running their business so I can't decide if it's safe or not for them but I just want to make sure that if however we we decide we're going to go with this that the end result result isn't going to be the same but cost our taxpayers $1.6 million more and the Finish duration time would be the same and that's simply because that's out of your control that would be FEMA and the county if we could get them to obligate more money to this project I just concerned that the end result would be the same sure and and to to speak to that I I would um I can't make money out of out of you know thin air um but I would say that at a minimum maybe give it like let's try really hard for two weeks go to DP go to fish and wildlife um you know we talked about turtles earlier everybody in Florida loves Turtles right um and you know they need an environment to lay their eggs and and she actually spoke to hey we're looking forward to nourishment so that we can have a beach back so I think that you can reach to DP you can reach to FEMA you can reach to to fish and wildlife um certainly to Lee County uh because as we know that a lot of people from Lee County for Meers comes to the beach um and so maybe they have additional funds um I would ask that at a minimum it's not going to cost you that much time let's let's work for two weeks to see and we'll make our calls that we can make we'll do it with you and see if we can get you more money I'm just saying that I think that the money that you had allocated before was too little um and that's because I think the estimate was wrong so um I would look for more sources and uses of the of the money maybe that's in Dallas um you know maybe it's with Region 4 uh maybe it's with uh um you know ni withth the the the Fisheries um so now to get that money in two weeks probably not but if you got the process going we're not going to be done until the end of November anyways um and so by then there's a new budget that would come in and uh potentially it'd be more money now we can't sign we can't Ken uh or anybody really can't sign a contingent contract meaning we'll pay you if we get the money it's not that's not um uh an approved mechanism for for governments but um you know if it was ay calend will'll be done in November but we can't pay you your final amount till February you know would you be open to that sure we would um but um um you can't say if we get paid it's it's legally you can say hey we're going to pay in in February when we get the funds uh as long as it was approved okay any other questions for John I don't know that I have a question but I have I guess I'm trying to imagine in my mind how we go back to these folks and say uh we don't have the right numbers to begin with because the number two bidder said we don't um it's it's I just don't see us doing it that way how would you approach people to say the numbers were off for more money um you know I I think what I would do is is exactly that way just we believe that we got the estimate wrong in the first place that um you know this is really a $ 35 Plus million project not a $22 million project or 25 was a budget 24 I believe um that it was just wrong I mean it happens all the time uh you know where where you get bids in and I'm sure yall approve it all the time where you get a a bid to put in water lines and put in you know build a new city hall and it may come in over budget well what do you do you can't cut your way to to being in budget you can sometimes in this case you really can't um and so you just have to go and either find the money somewhere else or see if you can uh uh Tighten Up In some cases but you know we all know that inflation's gone crazy and that um um you know people blow budgets all the time I'm sure most of the people rebuilding their homes on Fort Meers Beach right now none of them are on budget um because it's all costing more so I would say that that's you would do it just like you building a new house uh yourself so you just go back and say look we got I think the difference would be though that you're sticking with that Builder uh you're not saying number two said we we blew it right um back to my analogy I think you decided to go with a heart surgeon for your heart surgery rather than a general practitioner for your heart surgery and I think that's what no doubt ad is a dredger they can pump material through a dredge is it the proper dredge for this job to finish within 195 days and to sit and borrow that material from the spot where we're supposed to borrow material from I would say safely it's not the right vessel and then secondly it's not a responsive bid because it can't be done in 180 days um I would tell you or 195 days is the the the the land Yap that they give um if you would have given us a bid duration of 360 days we still would have brought an offshore dredge to do this project we would not have brought an inland dredge to do this project so in two cases you know we just don't believe that atna had a responsible or a responsive bid uh to this project because it's not the right vessel legally they can do it but is it really the best practice no secondly we don't believe it's responsive because again it's 195 days to complete and they are already telling you they cannot do it in that that duration John just one other thing you done concer King yes I thanks is it is is it safe to say that both you and atna would have I mean you'd mentioned about potential change orders you know you go over budget atna could certainly do it I don't your your bid did not have any guarantees that you wouldn't go over a budget did it um I'm not well I think we're already over budget I believe the budget y'all had was 24 or 25 what you what the dollar month that you you you propos a 37191 million is there anything in your bid guaranteeing that there would be no change orders above that amount I think it would be our our bid would unless there was some unforeseen condition like a a shipwreck in the borrow area or or um you know protesters on the beach um you know stopping a pipeline which does happen um but you know for any un unforeseen no so there'd be no change orders unless there's some major unforeseen and I don't think there'd be change orders for otna either by the way uh I think there' be liquidated damages forna for finishing on time but I think they would be subject to the same thing you know anything unforeseen okay uh it was surveyed back in November 21 um so there could be something that washed out over there but uh you know I doubt there's much out there in the Bor area okay probably be pretty safe any other questions from John yeah can you sharpen your pencil get below 37 well so one guy's at 21 you guys are at 37 well we are um I there's always a chance for a best and final offer right but we'll we will never get close I'm asking you get close I'm just asking if you can be willing to sharpen your pencil I mean we would we would probably uh be able to do a little bit yes sir okay uh if we you know in the best in final offer um I will tell you what's different is I mean you know the vessels that we were bringing the offshore dredges these are 60 70 80 90 million dollar vessels the The Dredge that uton is bringing is a$2 and a half million dollar vessel it's just they're just different they're just completely different um and that's why ours is so much more expensive it's not that we're making that much more money we have 34 people that live live on the dredge um uh otna will have probably seven guys during the day crew and Five Guys a night um so you know it's just really apples and oranges so okay thank you John thank you Mike we hear from Mike right yes and also I want to bring something up that has not been brought up um we have a um our consultant has said that atet can do the work and they can do it within the time frame involved I don't know how I'm going to defend the lawsuit by atna against the town and there would be I think believe dramatic damages so just another you mean if we choose to go a different route that's right that's right and that would come out of that we would not get funding for that that would come out of the uh the town's coffers because that's not covered by insurance so how so run that by us again yeah who spoke to whom I'm sorry so atna told told you no atna did not say anything but they'd be crazy not to so that that's this is your opinion yes okay thank you yes okay let me a lawyer let's set let's set the premise here as a non- lawyer uh we would in essence be reversing our decision based upon the second bidder perception of best practices in other words the the the successful bidder is not an any violation of any federal or state or local or County ordinances or regulations or guidelines because I I believe this the second bidder admitted that there it's just based upon his professional opinion not based on any violation of any regulatory ordinances or statutes so I don't know how we would defend switching uh in court either if we got I have no earthly idea how I would defend on that I'm with you on that Becky I I agree with you 100% see as much as I respect this gentleman's professional opinion legally I think I don't know how we would ever reverse course I I agree with you I don't know either y but I will tell you this is not this is a contractual issue which is not covered by insurance so we're talking about bottom line general fund money money and what what's our exposure then potentially great I think she already said it significant significant very significant Mike you want to come up for just a couple minutes or Chad who M we were gonna ask okay sure sure sorry I didn't know you were back there oh that's all right R gamon's VP from on Marine Construction pleasure to see you guys all today thank you for giving me your time um John thanks for your presentation we appreciate that too um kind of like a David and Goliath story is what we've put out here right it's the hammer the sledgehammer versus the hammer they both do the job which one does the job better which one's fit for the right job can John's dredge and um calamarine dredge do the job sure is there potential that maybe they can't get into uh the Nearshore borrow area with the draft of their dredge I don't know it's that's for them that's their bid I know what we bid we bid um the appropriate dredge for the appropriate job we have a secondary dredge that's a backup in case there's any major breakdowns we can plug another dredge in and keep on going so we can limit our downtime um we've successfully done some projects in the Nearshore um borrow areas which is similar to what we're doing here I know we've referred to it several times throughout this meeting as offshore there's two borrow areas for this project there's one that is offshore 21 nautical miles offshore and then there is the Nearshore which is 1.5 nautical miles um we're protected you know we're we're still kind of inside the range there you know you've got your um Barrier Islands to the north that are protecting you we've got a quick disconnect as John mentioned we've got a tug that's not just a little small tug we actually have the appropriate size tug so we can pull and and get in if we need to for severe weather or just normal everyday bad storm that we see coming we watch the radar all the all the time and I believe we have the uh the right job the right tool for the right job um we did successfully complete a project uh through through humus andore and city of Marco Tiger Tail where we were offshore about the same 8,500 ft offshore in the Gulf of Mexico for the Tigertail Lagoon project uh we successfully did that you know we pulled in in times of bad weather we went back out and dredged in times of good weather um I think that the longer we prolong this obviously we're we're dealing with hurricane Seas we want to get this thing get in and knock it out as quickly as we can can Karine probably do it faster with the big equipment sure um can we do it just fine ample amount of time under budget absolutely okay any questions for Wes thanks I just I just can't let this go Wes because I'm sure you want a minute to to to opine on this an inference has been made that that that your folks would be at risk if they took this job uh is that something that you're you're comfortable with that statement I would ever put my folks at risk I I did I didn't think so do you have any additional comment on that though um we have a great EMR rating you can check at our EMR rating we don't have accidents we um obviously accidents can happen and things can happen we would put our folks in a situation where we would limit accidents to a bare minimum thank you and just because the dollars are out there what do you how why do you feel that there was such a discrepancy between your bid and what they bid I mean he mentioned it he's got a he's got a big beast he's got a big beast to feed just the cost of yep okay thanks Wes yep gentlemen think we're good for now all right thank you thanks good morning for the record Michael PF Coastal Engineering Consultants as your consultant it is our one of our tasks and responsibilities to review the bids that come in and so we receed the bids from Amy through purchasing we do our due diligence we contact the refer es we look at their plant equipment schedules we evaluate their production rates independently and we use a program designed by Dr Randall Texas A&M he's the dredging Guru so we are basing our analysis on Theory but it's based on pump curves and dredging data that has been used by the industry for a very long time based on our independent assessment We Believe atna does have the equipment to achieve the production rate necessary for the project in the time frame the contract time excuse me could we get um U Mr PF to be um he's he's not an interested party as far as a bidder is concerned but he should be qualified as an expert for that reason I think he's I think you've already been qualified by the council in the past um I don't think so not Quai judicial hearing so what would you like us to do Mo just just run through your qualifications and they will deem that you're an expert we need need that for the Quai judicial aspect of this sure so I have a undergraduate degree in civil engineering from University Delaware and a master's degree in Coastal Engineering from University of Delaware I have been working in the Coastal Engineering profession for over 30 years in Florida I have designed and permitted and oversaw the construction of over 70 million cic yards of settlement placed in the Gulf of Mexico on bar Islands from Louisiana to Florida I have worked with both of these dredging companies I have worked with the other companies that have been referenced here today I'm very familiar with small drudging projects two large drudging projects the largest project that I designed was a 200 million doll project in Louisiana the smallest one is probably a a small man-made Canal drudging project so I uh have done the designs myself I have run the computer models I have done the permitting dealt with the agencies I have represented you technically for funding applications I work for you I work for the city of Marco work for Lee County West Coast Inland navigation District Charlotte County Sarasota County manate County and the state of Louisiana on all of their bar Island and Coastal restoration projects I would Mr Mayor I would move approval of of Mike PF as an expert witness I'll second any further discussion all do roll call you want a roll call vote sure okay vice mayor I I'm an i con stord hi Council King hi motion carries unanimously thanks for that Becky go ahead okay sure there's been discussion about safety you've heard Ken's position and you've heard an's position there're also written documents that were provided in your agenda package to our knowledge based on working with thus since 2013 formerly kavachi the acquired kavachi they had a clear safety record on all the projects that we personally were the engineer for I have spoken with the references that were non-federal and I say that because the references that are federal I spoke to the reference person and those persons said they weren't allowed to share information and we had to get it through their contractor rating performance system we had to go through the Freedom of Information request act so I did not have time to do that so I'm basing this on the references that are in their bid document that are related to local government projects not Army Corps of Engineers projects I also spoke in depth with Muhammad deis he is the engineer of record from humad and Moore for the tiger taale project they worked in that Offshore bar area I'll say offshore to be consistent with kalons we do call it the Nearshore but for for distance-wise about 8,500 ft offshore with one booster they were pumping 6,000 yards per day so some of the averages and things that you've seen uh I understand how Ken derived those averages but they don't have the in-depth knowledge of the project like I do I was also a consultant for the city of Marco Island we provided surveys on the project so I know that OTA can perform at a much higher production rate than what was presented by C in their table for an average over the course of the project so they successfully dredged that particular bar area very similar environment atna has dredged the navigation Channel at matanzas pass for the Army Corps of Engineers they're very familiar with our area because they have worked here for the past 11 years on multiple projects so it's my professional opinion that ATA can successfully complete this project in the time frame go ahead VI May Mike would you just take a minute and comment on from a public safety standpoint the sense of urgency about getting this beach renourished as quickly as possible and the public uh safety benefits that that the town would derive from that the island would derive from that sure so the beach has been severely eroded and damaged by hurcan the vertical elevation has been diminished we have had erosion and we have been able to do limited truck Halls to place some of that sand back but this project will place about 85% C or so of the volume necessary to fully recover from the background erosion since the original project and the effects of hurricane Ian the sooner we get that sand on the beach the more protection we all have for our Upland property for our evacuation route uh and also for environmental and recreational benefits thank you I will add that the dredge that dredged the project in 2011 it was a Lee County project I was not the engineer of record I do recall speaking with the engineer for the county who has gone into private business he's no longer with the county uh it was a smaller dredge it was a 14-in cutterhead dredge it was Florida Dron dock I believe Don Fletcher probably rolled over in his grave when um John Sullivan said they got lucky I don't think Florida dren do and Don Fletcher ran their business on the basis of luck they took their dredge out there now they did not have to pump as far south if you recall that was just the north segment but they successfully completed 400,000 cubic yards for the county either the town of benefited from that and I think it was deemed a very successful project so in terms of the scale of the dredges uh just want to give you an idea of it was a 14-in cutter head an proposed an 18-inch cutter head K's proposed a 32-in cutter head dredge as far as additional funding goes the FEMA project component is only on the North segment the engineered Beach that was completed previously it's only for 56,000 yards they will pay 90% of the cost for those 56,000 yards so whatever bid you choose FEMA will adjust their their am of money that reimburse you for to match that but FEMA is not going to go qualify the Central and South segments and give you additional funding because that's not part of the FEMA program FEMA has given you everything that they're going to give you except for the 56,000 yards and they'll pay 90% of that with Lee County or de have additional funding it's certainly possible but it's based on public access it's based on percentages it's based on going through the approval processes and I don't believe we can get that done in the next 3 months um to get that kind of funding to go to the next level of biders so and there would still be the component of the 10% the town would have to cover in the difference of that actually for those grants it's 15% oh so yes okay and I do believe a is prepared to begin in June so Wes is that correct so that is prepared to begin the project in June so all the permits are in place I know we have to make some preconstruction submittal have a but yes we have all the permits there are a few steps we have to go through to get the What's called the notice to proceed from the agencies but okay we are ready to go I think you covered a lot the questions I had just in your any other questions for Mike no thank you sir thank you okay Becky where do we go from here um the case law in Florida is very clear um y'all are bound by the bid documents and by your um you know what your experts say and I think anything that you might do beyond that is at the town's risk so I recommend um denying the protest okay is there a motion Mr Mayor I would make a motion that we deny bid protest itb2 24-3 second got a motion by Vice May adalt seconded by councelor King any further discussion roll call vote as well as yes pleas Vice may I correct we're voting i i to the motion to reject yes got to reject it clear allc Safford may I motion carries unanimously okay and we will prepare a written order and get it signed I believe mayor you're going to be gone so the vice mayor will will sign the written order okay next is resolution 24- 99 this is not quas judicial correct no it's not resolution 2499 it- 24-3 Beach nourishment atna you want me to read the whole resolution yes please a resolution of the Town Council of the town of Fort Meers Beach Florida approving an agreement between the town of Fort Meers Beach and atad Marine and Construction LLC to complete the Estero Island beach nourishment and hurricane recovery project authorizing the town manager to execute an agreement and expend budgeted funds on behalf of the Town providing for scriven reserves severability and an effective date is there any discussion any you need to ask for public comment on this public comment is there anyone that would like to speak in public comment for this resolution 2499 yes sir come on up Mr solivan John Sullivan um Callum Marine so just miss F uh just to to make a few comments so um she said that you are bound by the bid documents and by uh what your experts uh suggest I would claim that by your own bid documents that otna was not responsive the job has to be done in 195 days they are already telling you in their own submission that they will not be done in 195 days so they've already said that they will they do not comply so I don't believe that you would be subject to um uh what Miss Voss said that um um that you have to follow what your your you know what your experts say because I I would tell you that even otna is saying that they can't be done in time so that's that's one thing um but I also want to go and tell you so I think that's wrong but I also want to tell you that if you vote to approve atna we're gone we're we're we're not going to we're not going to claim we're not going to sue you we're going to go to work somewhere else and and this if if there's one thing that I want to accomplish today and I really mean this and I mean this to us if this is a heightened heightened uh sense of security and safety that if y'all approve adna and and he says that oh my gosh K just scared the heck out of us that it could be risky if it saves one of their guys' lives it was worth a plane flight and I mean that I really do we're not going to sue this the the the the beach we're not going to come after anybody it's none of that we're gone but and we would love to come work for you again um I do believe that you'd be making a mistake um but I'm also going to tell you that we we're gone uh you're not going to hear from us again so um um meaning on this on this bit if you if you award and like I said the the the main goal um if not approved at least Wes and not to say that Wes would ever put his men in in danger but at least he's had to defend it and maybe think about it a little bit more and maybe that saves life so uh with that you know I feel like we've accomplished our goal if you approve it now if you don't approve and come to us and at least give it two weeks and go try to find some more money I think you'll have a beach done uh by the end of the year um I think there is more money out there um and and we'd be very helpful or very happy to be helpful in trying to find that uh I don't see what two weeks hurts to go give it a a hard shot but just think about that appreciate your comments John thank you is there anyone else who would like to speak in public comment see you then we'll close public comment bring it back to council for further discussion or a motion any further discussion Mr Mayor I I first of all I I appreciate the comments of the remonstrator today uh appreciate the professionalism of the presentation uh uh obviously the council respectfully disagrees but appreciate your tone and appreciate your willingness to let this go uh and I appreciate your input and appreciate you being here today with that Mr Mayor I'll move resolution 24- 99 it B-24 03n seconding a motion by vice mayor adalt seconded by councelor King any further discussion Vice UL I councelor King I Stafford hi mayor alers and I motion carries unanimously next is final public comment is there anyone here for final public comment all right seeing none we'll close final public comment Town manager items thank you mayor uh interest of time I've got a couple of things um we continue to um respond to FEMA with nfip uh We've have our last grouping of of documents they want of our 106 less the five or seven that don't either are not either in town or don't exist um we will meet with them again this week um staff continues to do that so we continue to stay in communication with the county and with uh FEMA and and uh we'll even be visiting with FEMA in a couple of days in in Washington DC and kind of followed up with them there just to stay on the map but we continue to do what we uh we have been asked to do by FEMA uh also um budget calendar is out we we will continue to talk about that as we move into June uh we'll have a um a preliminary budget presented to you at the next council meeting and so we to set the the worst case scenario military rate if I'm correct Joe on that so as we move forward with that and we'll continue to have some meetings with you individually uh going forward and in my absence Mr uh hoi will be uh running the town okay quiet Town attorneys items uh nothing nothing no pressure Council Manor items and Report sapper wow so we had parallelogram Lots we had postage stamp lots and now we have Beach Bar Lots so um I it's my understanding that the beach bar is trying trying to build back and they're going to have to go through C CPD process because their far calculations only 1.0 is that correct so all those lots on that street they're we're going to have difficulty building back so I I don't know how what the process will be but I I think we need to address those lots and you know s maybe you can help me out how we can do this well the downtown zoning District um so that's pedestrian commercial the maximum pedestrian commercial fa R is 2.5 however the downtown zoning district has limitations from I believe 1.8 to1 um so there's a range uh depending on where they're located in regard to the downtown um you know like the the Time Square and old San Carlos has a higher F and then the areas that were predominantly um residential with some commercial uses had a lower f um you you could choose to increase the F in those areas um pulling up the map now I apologize I yeah I'm sorry I didn't no yeah so basically the way you calculate your your f is your square footage but because of the Coastal Construction line right there they can only calculate up to the Coastal Construction line so they're really it's really tough to get to build a building there so I don't know what the best way to proceed maybe we do MMP our next MMP meeting we talk about it or what what the best course of action would be yeah um I I think that that would be a good MMP discussion um because increasing f is a big topic um and we need to look at what the other zoning districts allow um so that you know you're not getting just additional um yeah I want give the store away but I I I you know believeing in property rights they they need some they're going to need some help just like the parallelogram Lots just like the poster stamp Lots I mean I I think that keep in mind that people were building on those lots prior to the storm and we didn't have this problem so and and we were implementing these regulations this is not a new regulation or a new requirement so um all the other previous ones did have to meet those F if it's if it's R RS or RC zoned um it's 40% building coverage um but that doesn't look at floor area ratio that's just building coverage and then if you're in the downtown it's it's that range um so I apologize it takes me while to actually get to sections no you're fine may we talk about it at MMP yeah if you can maybe bring it to an MMP for a discussion I I support that um and if you could also when we do have that you just mentioned something that this was something that was being done well before the storm if you could maybe bring some examples that have had to deal with the same issues that I think Scott's talking about just for reference uh I think that would be helpful for the discussion okay um you may recall um in this in the commercial in the downtown zoning District we did talk about um actually right after the storm we made some changes to the downtown zoning District along those secondary streets to allow uh red setbacks um or actually to give them the range of setbacks so that even though they're residential use they could take advantage of those downtown uh setbacks so we have made some changes to that in the not too distant past when is the M&P June would that be yeah makes sense the third yeah if we talk about MP maybe have LPA take a look at it that'd be fantastic okay that's all I have thank you okay pleas M uh couple things since we just mentioned MP just another thought for an M&P uh item particularly as we approach hurricane season Mr Town manager you and I talked about this informally I think the other week um wondered if we could have a public conversation about all the uh good work that you're doing in terms of planning just to convey to the public that we what our plan is for re entry after a hurricane uh what What's our communication plan um what uh what's what what the hurricane passes will do what they won't do this is the sort of those were the sort of some key issues uh as we wrestled last time and I think just to have some uh it sounds like the town's doing a lot which is great but I think if an opportunity to convey what we're doing to the public would be of comfort to people and and kind of wrestle with some of the challenges that we we wrestled with previously um second of all I think Jeff is still here I haven't had a chance to talk to Jeff directly but I'm I think you'll be in involved in this somehow I talked we we had the ad hoc uh committee uh to preserve the beach School uh we had one of our meetings that we have were're formally to meet at least twice a year according to the interlocal agreement we met last Tuesday I had a good conversation um the uh the the the schools making good progress uh they're they're working under challenging uh uh budgetary situation teachers and principal and staff are are are working under again a challenging budget situation the school district did offer to build a cafe kitchen over the upcoming year which would be a great benefit to the school um obviously we're still trying to meet our numbers from an enrollment standpoint there's a lot of interesting ideas floating around one of the things that we talked about after the meeting uh is potentially starting a VPK program and and potentially finding a private vendor to run it and maybe then allowing them to use Town facilities like B Oaks to create in essence not only a benefit to our residents particularly the residents who have kids in the school and may have younger children children as well instead of I mean some of these parents are literally driving to drop their kids off at at at at Bay Oaks and then they drive off Island for their their child care they could all kind of be in the samec ation that would be great plus it also creates a pipeline of kids to come in people who work may work on the island if they could get involved in that boks program through a VPK program uh then there then then you sort of build this pipeline to the Future uh which you think we think would help our enrollment numbers and be a benefit to the residents and again it would be privately run but again we would we would sign some kind of a contract with this firm where they could allow to use Town facilities and significantly reduce cost to help make it uh make them competitive so I just wanted to posit that out there and maybe maybe that's an mnp conversation I believe one of the parents well one of our members John C I think he's reached out to Danielle already and discussed it at length have you you you've actually heard about that so so we're working on how we would do it and uh what what what what what sort of next steps might be so I don't know if that's something that my colleagues would are comfortable with wrestling with we M on that I just want to task the town manager was seeing if that's possible and and work it out with Jeff and some of these parents from the from the PTO and from the ad hoc committee how would you like to handle that Mr Town manager I wish you to come to me instead of Danielle first um think higher level think just knew he did mention to me the other day that he wanted to talk about this the school system doesn't run bpk programs across the county I I as I understand it this would be a a a public private partnership uh to to to make it work now there may be there may be options for the for the school district to handle that it's a great question I I don't know I'm just curious but yeah willing to talk about it and go over it and and and try to explore some options I don't know about how we would go about finding an investor to to do that you know being the government I don't know how how we would separate and and solicit that kind of stuff I'd have to get with the attorneys for the legalities of that kind of thing Becky you're making an interesting face put your thinking camp on uh again it would be we would they would assume I we have to figure out a way where they would assume liability but maybe then sign a a lease with the town for to use our facilities you know significantly reduced rate uh to induce them to do this uh and and to make them competitive um but this is this is just we've got to start thinking out of the box to help our enrollment number grow help our enrollment numbers grow for the school and I think it would be imagine these parents on we we want to maintain a a diverse uh socioeconomic background in this island and if we want to have parents and workers quite frankly particularly those who have young children or multiple kids if they I mean they're literally having to drive to the school especially during season during traffic and then drive off file into to their child care provider it's a challenge uh and logistic challenge that that almost is insurmountable so if we could s sort of help them think through that again the town wouldn't be this would be this would be done by a private provider people would still pay their whatever they're paying for their for their daycare costs uh but if they had that facility that with a proximity to the school and boks could be something that could help the school in the long run so I guess if everybody just put their thinking I can work with Andy on that all right I just Googled bpk um with Lee County schools and there's a program the school district of Lee County's VPK school year program provides Early Child education to four-year-olds whose families meet free lunch guidelines who will be entering kindergarten the next fall the 540 hour school system yeah I think this was this is something different yeah I think it's a little different because I don't think this was based on income and and the and the parents are willing to pay uh and uh pay a provider uh and so it would be just a a kind of a public private partnership for where we could utilize our facilities at a discounted rate uh in order to help help the cause of the school um again lots lots of research needs to be done but I just thought i' I'd pait the question thanc that's all I have Mr Mayor thank you yeah counc King I've got a couple items U residents have been bringing a couple things to me one um Chad I I'm going to have to reach out to you on this U concerns about beach access is being blocked on the south end I assume that's roping off by FWC I just don't know what you're aware of that and what you share uh Chad shoots town of Fort Myers Beach environmental staff uh so we're speaking of uh Carlos Point Beach in particular with they just told me um South End Beach accesses period so uh I have heard some complaints coming from some of the condos there and there's some been some concern with regards to the FWC um creating uh buffer zones for the nesting Birds down there um that's something that's been typically resolved and negotiated between FWC and the uh properties themselves um it's been an odd couple of years um between the hurricane and uh lack of traffic on the beach um so uh I can follow up with the condos and with FWC and see with the complaints are and see what we can facilitate can I be a part of that too please yes sir thank you pardon me that's a good idea um also the second part uh I had a resident come to me last week uh with concerns for the restaurants uh for this summer on island and uh wondered if the town could U help by waving parking and and the first thought that came to my mind was uh possibly a good way to do that would be to have folks um present a stamp receipt because a lot of these businesses have their stamps now with these the passport the pub passport things and maybe we could then refund the money back to those folks but I understand U after meeting with Frankie and Tom uh that we're charged for processing refunds so I think that went out uh of my mind but uh another thought that entered was uh just a possibility of uh maybe a couple hours of free parking for lunch from like 11: to 1 and then maybe maybe 3 hours for dinner for 4 to 7 for June July and August and I'm not trying to give away the whole store and I just think any help that folks could get from us would be would be a big uh big something to get them over the hump of the uh off season I would fully support that of course not counting holidays I mean right right I if I could uh councelor King I I I think I was approached by the same resident uh I think uh what I'm curious about uh uh Mr Town manager or Frankie whoever is tracking this if we've had a chance to look if you look downtown after five not a lot of people parking in those spots now and and the concept of marketing free parking for during dinner or with lunch or whatever John was talking about I I think that almost might outweigh the fiscal impact which may be minimal I if if there is minimal fiscal impact just the the messaging for us to be able to save free parking during offseason uh in those down could be could be great and for these restaurants so I I guess it' be helpful to have some kind of an idea what the fiscal impact would be and if it's minimal boy the the marketing uh plus not just for the restaurants but for the merchants and the shop other shops down there could be great because it's it's going to be a long hot summer for these for these businesses good uh morning uh Frankie kic operations and compliance director for the town of Fort Myers Beach um we have looked at this a lot and I'm I'm totally on board with all that uh you tell us how you want it messaged we'll get it out there I think it's great for the town uh we are seeing a lot of influx of day Trippers uh people that are here in the Fort Myers greater Fort Myers area that just want to come down and know that the beach isn't the beach at the moment but still know that there's plenty of places to go and have a drink or something to eat um this would totally help a lot of these uh companies and and restaurants whatever you want to call them businesses uh to get back on their feet and help them through the kind of the long summer months here um so you tell how you want to proceed and we'll uh we'll definitely get that going look John are you looking I guess I'm a little confused are you looking for like all day every day free parking or just certain specific times uh yeah I think um yeah you're right I don't want to give away the whole store so I think uh boosting it for lunch say from 11:00 to 1 for free parking during that time I don't know how we how we manage that or also for dinner from uh from say 400 to 7: so you're looking at five hours a day and that is I as I understood it John that would not include the beach access spots just the spots downtown right downtown yes y non holiday if we were talking about just Old St Carlos area and then around the curve like covering around uh just say from Crescent to the barrier of Lind Hall uh where the old uh what was it the Sand Castle Hotel was those are spots that go out that way if you would just have that designated District we could get that message out it's just in these locations for this amount of time on these given dates um that could easily be put out and and communicated to the public we could also come up with some temporary signing or signage rather in those areas to also facilitate that as well okay I think we're I think we're thinking and I don't want to for John but I think like through October 1st I was just thinking 90 days for the summer but if you want to extend it I'm okay with that to sing singer song riter is October 1st sound good because September's pretty Grim here yeah the time frame for me it doesn't I mean I'm open to the time frame and I like the idea I'm just a little worried about the logistics without Tom being here to understand how his staff would be able to manage from 11: to1 and then someone comes at 12:59 and we we have all new signage coming through passport anyway so we're doing away with the QR code we're just going to go to a text time anyway uh we were going to come up with temporary signs to let people know that we're going to a brand new sign and how to use that sign this would be the ideal time if you were wishing to do this to incorporate that as well um onto our our temporary signage for this area this downtown area um and it would be easily to uh easily adapt it to their routine in other words if you're talking 11:1 you you just don't you you still have your patrols you're just not actively doing that anything after 1:00 I mean what's anything we're not talking 101 but uh 115 120 you're well within that that time frame where you could start looking we don't actively go out and do those we don't actively go out and try to pursue we're looking at probably a 30 minute grace and I hate using the word Grace but U an active time to start enforcement uh so realistically you're you're you're not sending people down there at 1:00 because it ends at 1:00 you're you're you're doing it within reason uh Tom and his staff graciously go back and try to get people that are just a few minutes over uh people that didn't understand the system they're always reaching out to them and and and and pulling them back in and refunding that anyway uh but until people get trained and understand that it's 11 to1 for lunch crowd and from 4: to whenever you'd come up uh seven uh for the nighttime crowd I I think that's more than reachable um and and and able to get out into the public yeah I I guess the 11 to the one is what I'm struggling with I I don't have a problem with 4:00 on or something so you get people down here for dinner but I just to me it seems like it's going to be a logistical logistical nightmare to try to quarantine off two hours I think the businesses would be fine after four okay yeah I mean I I think it would make it easier for everybody just a brainstorm no no I I I I support the idea I just and we're just talking about old San Carlos proper correct I mean if we would give per we're not talking about underneath the bridges we're not talking about hidden down a side street uh some accesses that we have uh so we're just talking about mainstream paring just make it simple too like June 1st through October 1st makes and just you could just head nod Joe you don't need to necessarily come up here is this would that change have a huge financial impact in your what you're preparing for the budget okay yeah I mean I've got totals for townwide from May 1st through the end of September um but I mean or through September yeah the end of September but that's townwide that's not just giving up that just one Street location is it I mean is it is there a way to get data from say four o'cl on the revenue that's been generated or the revenue that we would poten I don't believe you can do that through now our parking person right now the company that we use cannot break it down per Street there's just no way of of really knowing that but um I I just don't want to make a decision that's going to put Joe in a hard spot that you know now he's got to redo a bunch of calculations that he's already been working on if you're talking four hours of time leeway uh it it's not going to be as great a revenue impact as you think um so is everyone okay with supporting Frankie to go at least get the numbers communicate with Joe and then bring it back to us individually in our meetings to to give him the okay or do we have to physically bring it back here in vote on it you have to physically bring it back and vote on it and our next meeting is June 3rd so do that we can get that going I'll get him to contact passport and come up with some figures so we all when we we sit and chat we'll we'll at least have the figures in front of us we can make an educated decision at that point at least to understand where the town is coming from and then we can also get with Joe and make sure that that's we can we can count the the spaces and worst case scenario four to S what it would cost to lose that Revenue that's that's just a no we don't have to ask anybody we just do a calculation correct correct yeah and if you want to start at June 1st you can authorize it now and then I don't think a couple days going to make a huge difference June 1st to June 3rd is not going to make a huge difference yeah we we we can eily get that information to to you all okay do everybody support that direction for June 3r SS good okay thanks Frankie John that's it for me okay um I just have one thing briefly I've talked to Jason Green about it I went back and watched the very lengthy comp plan discussion that we had there was a lot of information in that meeting to try to unpack so I felt it was necessary to go back and watch it and one thing that was concerning was the changing of of the calculations to F uh change to calculate density through F versus the way that it's being done now and the reason it was concerning to me is you know we've all voted unanimously several times that we don't want to just give away intensity or density by right and and Jason it took a little while but I think talking with Jason he understood where I was coming from on how that could potentially be the outcome by making that change and he was going to look into uh ways to have back stops to not allow that to happen not that I don't support doing that but you know the question was someone could come and accumulate four or five very large properties in a certain Zone and we would have no control other than F to control how many density units were inside that building and that that's kind of where my concern came from could it happen we don't know but it would open up the possibility for someone to be able to do that which they couldn't do now and and that's where my concern came in so he was going to look into it to to hopefully bring it back when we have these discussions to see what the ramifications could be from that if someone was to do it and if there's a way to put verbiage in there to prevent that from being something that could happen if that make sense I haven't had a chance to talk to you about this yet but I did have a conversation with Jason yes that does make sense um we've already transmitted to the state MH um I mean that doesn't mean we can't make changes after we get back comments from the state um we could put in uh room size limitations but keep in mind that the F that you currently have is not particularly high so um if someone applies the F and and you don't make any changes to the under you know right right now there's been a lot of discussion about getting rid of the F underneath the building um if you chose not to do that that that's a pretty good limit um in addition to height and setbacks um so with those limitations in place I don't know that you risk overbuilding too much even if somebody was making really small rooms but if if you wanted to include something about room sizes well I'm glad I'm glad you said what you because I I forgot to mention that because there is some misunderstanding out there that F currently is not being calculated for below base flood elevation or for parking but it we haven't made that change correct that's correct that still is in the code that is something that we have discussed but um that's in the Land Development code right so I I just wanted people to understand that that has not changed so you still have to calculate F at base below base flight elevation currently yes we do have several applications that have submitted for uh and include deviations to requests to not include that as part of their F right Sarah did did this not come up I I believe it came up during the myerside uh discussion at the LPA didn't someone ask about this issue and this change of potentially uh giving giving entities something by right that they didn't otherwise have did you do you remember that colloquy yes um so it isn't that we're giving something away it's that so so in the past whenever people would ask for they would ask for an increase in their multiplier so often times people would come and you right now would have a multiplier of 1.5 to 2.5 I think that's the range um so that's the density times that 1.5 or that 2.5 and in most instances that's not enough to do a hotel with at all um we've had several come in to try to do to use the multiplier and it's it's never really worked out um so as there they've been this one they asked for uh Myer side they asked for an increase in the multiplier to 5.6 from 2.5 to 5.6 um I believe Margarita vild did something very similar to that asked for an increase in the multiplier and so that's how this that works um so it's not an increase because rooms hotel rooms are not truly density they're in general in the world of planning they're considered intensity because that's a commercial use not a residential use um so I believe this was in just to make sure we're talking about the same thing and this is in response to a a missive that came from councelor V yes that's what you're referencing yes okay and explaining okay yeah yeah I I just wanted to get it out there that I I just saw an opportunity there that I think would be an un would be a consequence of something by making a change if if we were to move forward with getting rid of the calculations below base flood elevation that could be a huge increase in intensity if you're using it in the commercial sense to someone that could I mean that's a huge increase that would be granted to them by right with the changes that we've proposed through the comp plan and that's what caught my attention so like I said I if you want to talk to Jason and kind of get with it and and bring some kind of verbiage back I just want and and I guess I don't know if anybody's understanding what I'm really trying to say is is it could be someone could come and acquire five six seven pieces of property and then try to rezone it to the highest most intense use and by making this change and potentially eliminating the base flood elevation that could that could be a lot of rooms I mean you're you're talking a lot a lot of rooms which impacts the traffic the infrastructure all the other things and I just want to have some sort of safeguard that that can't happen without I mean you can still come in and ask I don't want to take away anybody's right to ask for something but to just inherently potentially give that away is the way I'm seeing it and and I don't know that's the direction I feel comfortable going with so I don't know where we go from there as far bring back I have to say having received the the the the email from councelor V I've actually heard from a couple other people on the island that had this concern and then I I listen to the discussion at the LPA and uh I'm I'm I welcome more discussion because I'm I'm a little bit confused myself to be honest with well I think it's it's it's easy for with visuals like you did a great great job with the visuals on buildings and what F looks like and I think people understood that so I don't know if it's possible to do a scenario that you know if you were to do this get rid of the calculations for Below based flood elevation and you were to make this F change for density for commercial properties what that could potentially look like on on a decent Siz lot okay or on you know maybe even I think you know where I'm going with that I might pull up some of the visuals that I put together before and maybe add to um just so it it they're sort of some some ability to see what that would look like but I think it's important if you're going to do that to not just have the box because we all understand the box but if I can by right have this box but I can now because of these changes have 500 hotel rooms where I could only have 200 that that's that's what I think an un unseen consequence that could come from making these changes so if there's a way to make the changes if that's the way we want to go but also have a back stop through the LDC or however we have to do it to not allow someone to go from and I'm just using this rough numbers but to go from 200 Hotel units to 500 Hotel units and not have to really the town has no seat at the table so to speak I think that's a consequence that at least we've all spoken in public and voted on it that that's not a consequence where we want to take or or put in place actually and I think I think that your your floor area ratio in the zoning districts takes care of that pretty well um because it's still relatively low somebody cannot get to the 2.5 without coming before you guys sure so that's that's one really good back stop is that nobody can get over the 1 point I think 1.8 is the max that they can get yeah in the downtown zoning district and they can't get higher than 1.8 without coming before you guys so that's one helpful way but I'll talk with Chase and see what else we can put in there okay that's all I had is there anything else for those of you about to pull a Peter Paul and Mary Leaving on a Jet Plane good trip and with that I'll move to a journ I'll second Mo by ccor seconded by councelor Safford any further discussion all those in favor signify by saying I I we are oppos we are adjourned at 11:35