e e e e e e e e e e ready all right so morning everyone uh thank you for coming to town of Fort Meers Beech uh Miss Lura Jackson from the fdp tricl program um volunteered to come down and uh help our residents and contractors out with any uh triple CL Pro uh permit uh application questions or general questions about um triple CL individual and general permits so I will let her take it away thank you thank you Chad and and and thank you so much to uh everybody here at the Fort Meers Beach office everybody has been so gracious and accommodating and I just thank you all for having me here um this is not really a formal presentation per se it's really an opportunity for me just to come and try to provide some guidance and some clarity um because we're getting a lot of applications I mean obviously we know the storm happened when the storm happened but now we're seeing a lot more applications come in and a lot of people are just not understanding the nuances between the two uh different applications and actually there's three but I'll get into that in a little bit but so uh I just figured the best thing to do uh is come down and do a presentation uh generally speaking the the [Music] D will go to areas that are impacted after a storm and do presentations uh do Outreach um it just took a while here because there was so much damage and uh there's there's it takes a lot of time for people to first of all I think get over the shock of what has happened uh to to the area and let me say I do really understand uh people's flight and um know that there is a need to get back to some sense of normaly and we here at the control line program want that to happen um but we still have rules and regulations so um you know I'm just here to try to give some clarity and to help people navigate through the various programs and processes uh as to what's required where um so I believe I've met some of you is by show of hand how many people are actually agents or act as agents what about um Property Owners interested persons okay that's good because again that way I can tailor my my uh language cuz when it's agents you know you can say certain things and they they understand I may say certain things in you and you're like uh I don't know what that means so uh and I I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence but I do want to make sure that uh you're understanding uh what the vernacular is cuz and I and if I go too fast tell me slow down because I will go because I've been doing this so so much and so often that I can just run right through it um but I want to make sure that this is this is beneficial on both ends my side and yours so so um with that being said um unless anybody has any immediate questions right off the bat yes sir um you said you're part of the D program the cccl program is that a county program or a state no so I am my name okay and you're right maybe I thought Chad said my name is solora Jackson I'm the environmental administrator for the Coastal Construction Control line program out of Tallahasse St yes sir and um we Fort Myers Beach as well as the D have our regulations as far as it relates to building within the beach area so that's why I've come down here is because even though you may go through the the fort Meers Beach process to to get permits you also have to go through a control line process um because the area is up I guess you see the the images all around the room um that's Fort Meers Beach and I have a set of Aerials that our GIS team printed out for me it goes from our Monument 178 to our Monument 210 I know that means nothing to most people but that's how we live our life by D monuments and bu addresses so one thing that most of you and uh there's a couple people here and I don't want to name anybody but there are a couple people here that I've spoken to um they know one of the first things I ask if you call where's your property address excuse me where's your property address because I can go to this this uh website that you see and put in your property address and these are the things that I want to kind of show you because again it's it's really a basic just let me show you how you get to where you need to get your own answers and then if you need more guidance my phone number and the ability to contact me I'm always available to do so but it's just so you understand some of the tools that are out there are available and you can go to them and navigate through them without having any great permissions or needing great permissions um but the our monuments and the property address help us to identify where you are and that red line is the Coastal Construction Control line the blue line is the general permit line so the difference in those two lines is the difference in the application process yes sir the 78 or the 91 one 91 in my permitting issues it has to do with the 78 is that not part of it so the sorry to charm so the 1978 triple CL is no longer referenced in State Statute but the town still uses as a zoning line for the environmentally critical zone so um that's a zero setback line so whenever you're uh constructing minor or major structure that's where it's more of a town permitting rather than the state the state statute only references the 1991 and that's where M laur's jurisdiction starts and not to say that it's not relevant or we no longer like like Chad just chimed in yes it's more of a local concern than it is a de concern but however understand from the control line to the mean high water is our concern doesn't doesn't matter what line is out there that's what our program is designed for we're supposed to be uh a program that regulates structures and we try to make sure that the structures that we are regulating uh don't cause some significant adverse impacts to the beach and dune system to the vegetation and to the Marine Turtles that's the whole essence of our program so as a cccl program that's what we're charged to do um the reason we have the various lines is because that gives us opportunities to have different ways to get permits issued processed because like I just said and you know I'll probably say things multiple times but it's just because it just has to be said multiple times our our our responsibility is from the control line to the mean high water so if we are looking at that in totality um there are ways to review things to see what are the impacts um what's interesting to me is the way the control line was established here cuz I had nothing to do with the establishment of the control line so let me say that in my defense I I didn't have anything to do with that that was that was established long before I got here but the control line as you can see in in that area right there is landward of a sterile Boulevard so that means that even those houses that are partially captured if they were going to rebuild in that location would need our authorization and to me why you're not anywhere close to impacting the beach and dun system which is what again our charge is making sure that we get the best benefit of a structure that's going to be in the in the area close to the to to the beach and dun system and we say that together but they're literally independent you've got the beach and then you've got the Doom now granted we know because of Ian there is no Doom so all of that is Beach and all of that is is a concern uh as far as sighting and things of that concerned um but the reason for the lines again is because it gives you different ways to get authorizations um control line GP line we even have field permits we even have the emergency process um because um one of the other things that I wanted to basically show you so Chad if you can go back to like our homepage um on the website and if I can navigate that myself just let me know okay oh yeah there it is okay so here and I will tell you this is a very good tool because this is the web page that that takes you to our homepage and it is Florida spelled out d p.gov back SL CC and of course everything is acronym driven but it's Coastal Construction Control line program so anytime you hear me say that cccl that's what we're talking about the Coastal Construction Control which is who we are and who I represent this homepage has everything from getting to the map direct uh one of the things that I think is even more uh beneficial is like here where it says apply for see apply for and receive assistance I don't know if I clicked that right y so here it even gives you description of the various cccl permitting forms so you can click on these things it even takes you to the link it even has detailed instructions on how to apply for a cccl perment now I granted I do understand that uh for Lay Lay members to even click on these things it still may be like you're reading Greek but nevertheless we have tried to do our dueil I will say that when I Was preparing I started going to the website because I wouldn't like to tell you things that I have not even experienced myself and there's some work I need to do as an administrator when I get back because there's some some languages on here that need to be corrected there's some links on here um because we discovered this in early May that there's a link on here because it talks about how to submit documents electronically and it's a great tool because it it tells you that you can email and you get the benefit in the control line process when you're when you're applying through the control line process to submit things electronically because it's it's a 10% discount but if your file sizes can tend to be a little bit larger that's what the instructions are to how to load things to the FTP side right well unbeknownst to us because again uh no no offense to Jacob who's doing a great job back there at it but it people have a tendency to move stuff and they don't tell you they've moved it and so they moved the FTP site and we didn't even know it so here we got instruction telling people how to load things to the FTP site not realizing that you were loading stuff and nobody knew you were loading it because the instructions do tell you that when you load things you have to uh send an email to the CC mailbox so that way our administrative staff can assign those um various documents to a file number and if it's not sent there and the email because there's so many um D sites that use the FTP site for loading if you don't send that email we have no way of knowing which records go with which file how they're supposed to be created it would take a person probably well over half a day to go through all of the items in there to even figure out what belongs to a specific person is everybody with me so far so this is a good tool because like I said it does give you a little bit of instruction about how uh to do things what the various forms are for uh like I says you can kind of gave you the same brief description of what I said about our control line program um so that's a good tool on our website um if equally on our website as I was saying about the uh Maps so that is a link right here it says map direct and I won't click on it because they already have it shown but that is how you get to that map by clicking on that map direct and that's how you to me is the first way to identify where your property is relative to the control line once you identify that then you can say okay am I land with of the GP line but C of the control line okay well then that's probably the process I need to follow or if I'm SE of the GP line even though I may be SE of G the GP line would I still even qualify for a permit um yeah so I was trying to go into L I figure i' finish that train of thought so even with with the map direct it's good to at least understand where you are geographically because that may help you understand where you can get the information that you'd like to receive in terms of knowing okay this is what where I think I might be you can always flip back to that ask and see okay well this gives me a description of what I need to do maybe this might be my best shot um forms cuz that's where I wanted to wanted to hang out a little bit because this shows the various applications what's confusing to most people is because cccl permit application related and it says here individual and areawide permits and then it comes down here and says general permits most people because of in in vernacular and semantics is everything for our program when you say General permits that to me most most people means well I'm just getting a permit so it must be a general permit but it's really not because the General permit is a totally different process which is 62b 34 versus your individual and areawide which is up here is 62b 33 and so while you can click here and it takes you to the actual application so that was the cccl and you click right there all of these are hyperlink you double click here and it actually takes takes you to the application so that's the application you can download it and then start filling it out because all of these items are what's required to be submitted under 62b 33.8 um let's see here I'm going back for a sec um uhoh [Music] okay um you want to head back to the there we are okay so here's the applications if you go back because if you notice in the description and maybe I'll do this too because then this this screen is a little bit closer for me to read but in in the cccl it tells you the form on the left side of that but then in the right section it gives you a description of what that application is for but even with that like the 62b 333 it says applications for individual administrative permits and areawide permits for construction and other activities SE of the cccl process pursuant to 62b 33 well that doesn't really give anybody any more idea about what do I do I use this process or do I use another process it just says that that's the process that you would need to use um conversely with the 62b 33 it does tell you that there is a permit fee worksheet for Coastal Construction Control line applications permit 73-100 and like I said you know having been there a while and starting to read some of this I think some of it is not not well written because you would know that just looking at this statement that the application well it does say there 73-100 but that kind of gets lost in the in in the context I think but then you come down here and it says areawide 73-100 application and you have a permit fee worksheet and oftentimes we get people that apply under the general permit which is the the next layer down 73101 and they'll include the permit fee worksheet which is tailored for 73-100 which is a totally different uh application process application fee process for the 62b 34 which is the general permit versus the cccl administrative per uh permitting process but these are the forms that you would get to um there's also down here the emergency application and people have gone to that because they think well okay we had an emergency and that's true but the the the really weird thing now that we're two years out is that emergency applications are usually applied for within 60 30 days after a storm because you're looking for some emergency relief to help prevent further destruction so it's kind of not really a you can't use it to rebuild houses you can't use it I mean and again as I and and as I said earlier we do recognize and and appreciate people trying to get back but at the end of the day the emergency process is not where and facilitates that ability for you to use that form for major things it's really supposed to be for minor uh and repairs and again like I said it's something that we would use right after a storm to help prevent further erosion or to put some uh some system in place so that you can come back later and do something else but it's a temporary measure so um that's the emergency like I said and and I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time talking about that because there's not really much that that that really can benefit from from that process um so have I thoroughly confused everybody so far good see it's called job security I'm just I'm just kidding cuz look I I tell everybody I don't need this kind of security really cuz you know we are what June uh June 24th so we're into a new hurricane season so with every hurricane we have increased workload so we have enough job security just because of nature um but anyway so um that's kind of the brief like wides scale the control line these are the processes these are the forms we use um I'll kind of quickly tell you that 62b 33 um as you'll see on the application I think I still have it open um the word look for the rule the PDF uh the application because I don't think I Clos it out I don't even see where the mouse is sorry okay I got it now nope okay there it is okay thank you um so the application this is the application and and I was scrolling through 62b just to show you that it is available right there on our website that that's why I had it pulled up so maybe I did jump too fast but the rule here is accessible through the main page right here in the quick links and the quick links just literally helps you get to things much faster the forms the rules the statutes map direct and like I said the form forms is probably the the the primary page but as you see here it's 62b 33 and it comes up in Word version let's there so you have it where you can either click here and get the entire document that you can save on your device or you can go to specific sections of the rule um because this section O8 deals with the permitting requirements and what you have to submit in your application so that it sometimes give you it gives you more information than just the little blur you'll get here on the application going back to the application so in this application everybody see that okay right so in the application you have these uh specific items and to go through them because um all of them have to be completed you have to have an owner with the information here and I do know that and recognize that as agents and some of you all as contractors there may not be uh information that the owner wants to share like their email address their phone number that's fine the agent can put their information there twice but we do have to have thank you we do have to have um owner information completed and you don't have to have an agent but if you are having somebody that's working on your behalf their information should should be provided here and I will say that I like to only have conversation with the people that are identified on the application why because I have learned over the years that when people start calling you contractors and whatever just people information gets mated I'll just say it that way so it is better to only have the conversations with the owner and the agent because then they're hearing it from you firsthand and it's not like well somebody told me you said well no I don't I've never even spoken with that person and so we just want to make sure that things it's not because we don't want to restrict the number of people but I do kind of because the more people I have to talk to the more calls I have to make the less work I'm able to get done um so at the end of the day uh it's just better to be able to communicate with the owner and with the agent but that has to be identified on the application and again an agent is not required but if you are going to have an agent that information should be here because when we send out documents the documents are going to be addressed to the names that are located on this document sections two and three require signatures very plain and simple if you're the owner or you're the agent those have to be signed come here to the description yes ma'am we're yes yes the person on yes particular that is correct that is correct because in a condominium clearly we don't want all the condominium owners it should be a Condominium Association so thank you for that that's a good question so the description of activities um usually like it to be as comprehensive as you can make it um well let me let me not say that cuz some people go from one extreme to the other they'll start itemizing everything but basically speaking we want like the things that you've captured on your permit fee worksheet um so you can say I'm building a single family residence um putting in a swimming pool I'm putting in some ancillary structures I'm doing landscaping I'm doing exterior lighting that's pretty you know you don't have to like drive way and walk way and you know just give us a com ensive because there is a box there that you can check if in fact you were going to provide an itemized sheet you can check that box and the only reason that I mean some people think we're being really anal sometimes but the reason why I like people to put what they're doing what they're requesting is because should these things go to hearing how many of you all have ever gone to hearing been in any kind of hearing challenged by anything they will pick at every little thing that you did not do that your rule says you're supposed to do so if our rule says you're supposed to fill out a work an application it should be filled out or there should be some you know pretty good explanation why you were not able to fill it out so uh there should be a pretty comprehensive description of what's being proposed and if not written here or you have really large handwriting or you want to use a large font and like I all said our eyesight but if you do that and you just can't fit it all in there just check the box and give us another sheet or another page that clearly explains what what's happening Excuse me yes sir but really how descriptive we're building a single family house it has to be whatever 16t 16 ft off the ground um how much description do you really need that's it a single family dwelling that's pretty simple it is okay all right do we have to say there's parking underneath or no okay no cuz generally speaking if you're parking underneath is underneath it's captured within the footprint of that dwelling right so um as far as the fees are concerned you would have to pay for like a driveway because the driveway is a separate structure because un under 33 you have to pay for all the structures which is what the fee worksheet identifies but you have to um um all structures are associated with a fee um and again not to jump ahead but we can jump ahead if if we want to go there but in the fee worksheet it does show you well yeah let me do that because that'll that'll help um I guess I'm getting pretty good at this here all right so thank you so here as you can see on the on the fee worksheet it says habitable structures and it identifies single family it identifies uh non-habitable major structures and it has a brief description on your your fee worksheet what those things are but really to get the comprehensive discussion of all of this that's why even in the application to go back here just for a quick second that's why you always see a reference when you get to this these items that references what's in the rule so if you needed more explanation or I wanted to go somewhere else to look that's why the reference for that item is included in that rule citation so you can go and see more information so back to the fee worksheet so you have single family residents and the only distinction with the single family residence is whether it has a foot roof footprint of greater than 2400 ft or less than 2400 Square ft and that's what dictates how much of a fee is assessed with each of those items non-habitable major structures and it has some things identified um and also too uh in 62b 33.2 that's our definitions those definitions also give support and context to what these things are in the rule major structures non-habitable major it's all defined um tells you then some examples of each of those categories but those things have fees associated with them as well then you come down to multiple family dwellings and that's where you get into whether it's a condominium um and even though it doesn't say Town town houses are considered multif family why because there's two people living in that structure so it's still considered a multif family dwelling even if it's a townhouse or a Triplex or a duplex um it still has to be captured under the fees of a multif family dwelling everybody good so far go back to my question um as you and I talked about it before we're we're in the general permit area right which doesn't apply to this fee structure that's right at all that's right but in the you said you got to go to the rules for 60 okay 60 something okay if everybody lets me pause for a second I'll go because that's a whole another uh discussion but I'll go there cuz you ask finish finish this and then yeah because 62 b34 has its own rule associated with it so that's um it'll show you in that rule how the fee is calculated um because there is no fee worksheet it just spefic specifically says your rules identified in 34 under 040 are these and it just calls out what your fees are and that's again the whole benefit of having the general permit so moving further now you have your minor structures because if it's a single minor structure and minor structures Again by definition it it tells you what they are um just from a a cursory minor structures or those that are designed to be Expendable and so uh and are such a size and design Not to cause a measurable interference that's what the definition says a minor structure is so if you're putting in a driveway you're putting in stairs you're putting in a doom walkover now let me pause there usually anything you include on your plans has to be captured in a fee whether it's a single minor structure or it's multiple minor structures or if it's a non-habitable major like you've got a cabana or you've got a beach house or you've got all of that is spelled out how you would apply a fee um Dune walkovers do not cost you if you get a field permit I was hoping Kelly Kramer our field representative was going to be able to make it today because she can give you a field permit for a doom walkover she can give you a field permit for a lot of things that are minor so sometimes people will only apply for the the major structure their their residents because well why not because you can save money and get the other things uh authorized thrill field permit which cost you nothing it's just you would have to reach out to our field representative and and get them authorized that way and so um it it it it's it's it's a good and it's bad but if you put it on the plans you have to pay for it I mean that's just the just the way it goes you have to pay for whatever you submit in your application process to us but yes ma'am mhm in our case um we have a Condo building anyway he said pass the button I mean they just want to be able to hear you on because they can't hear you in our case did I just ask a question yeah yeah yes okay in our case um we're trying to rebuild our we're a cond bu yes and we're just trying to build our swimming we're just trying to build our swimming pool back the same way it was before the storm um but because it's toward the front of our complex the line goes through the swimming pool um we also had a pool house M and just rebuilding the pool house as well mhm so does this minor structure and activities would that be the pool house I'm just very conf yeah no no no you're fine I mean that's that's what this this forum is for um it's to to give some clarity so you guys can can uh I'm helping you help me is what I'm here for because I I figure if I do this then we'll get some applications coming in that I won't have to keep writing Reis which are requests for additional information people won't be submitting on the wrong form and they have to call you say hey look you you you submitted the wrong form you need to withdraw and resubmit because I hate I hate to do that right um but it is what it is but if you look there under number three for non-habitable major structures under the examples it actually calls out swimming pools um it doesn't really say pool houses but pool schol houses Cabanas and gazebos kind of all come up under the same classification okay now I will say this unless your pool house is actually like a residence but if it's really a pool house it's just little tiny then it would fall under the non-habitable so you would have two non-habitable major structures the swimming pool and the pool house each being $1,000 so that would be $2,000 and I'll just piggyback cuz you got the mic and you asked the question you said the line goes through your pool which line 197 okay so that's the setback line okay all right we're in exact same I don't think everybody probably be able to hear me at talk loud um well it's for the people on the yeah that's the reason why they really want you to be mind we're in the exact same situation where our pool is actually on the 1978 cccl line and our the company we hired to reconstruct our pool contacted the town to get their permit and the town told them that we needed a survey showing the 1978 cccl Line running through our pool now we found it interesting that we found documents online showing the 1978 cccl Line running through our pool right down the center of our pool which was um put together by the people who did the BM survey so there was already a document showing that but the town still requires us to go and pay the money to a third party surveyor to get that and of course that's weeks and and wastes a lot of time now I'm starting to think that when that's done the town's going to come back to us again and say oh now you got to contact D on top of that well and they will which why didn't they tell us that right at the very very beginning so we can do this on a simultaneous process it doesn't make sense to have six different steps all lined up when at the very beginning we can get told you you'll need to also do this and you'll need to also do this because um in talking to our pool company that's going to rebuild our pool uh they had indicated at the very beginning when the we established a pool committee and brought in several contractors and had them give us quotes on rebuilding our pool and they implied that we could put the the equipment we had the same thing like a little house right next to the pool which was the way it was done in the 70s and that little house was where the pool equipment was that's all it was you you couldn't even store anything in it because there was a pool pump in there a pool filter was in there and then this thing where the water goes up to the same level of the pool well that was damaged by Hurricane Ian to the point where the the pool contractor said we we can't rebuild that and that's not how things are done today they use what's called a vacpack system or some type of a system that they said you go over to Diamond Head you go to that's what they're doing they're that's what they put in and um I'm starting to get the impression that we can't put that anywhere else and our pool contractor didn't know that and I certainly didn't know that in addition to going to the town for a permit for rebuilding our pool we would need to go to you and pay these fees to rebuild our pool nor did our pool contractor know that which is kind of surprising to me because they did Diamond heads pool right so you think they'd know they're doing surf songs pool so you think they'd know um but so we're in this this thing and it's like you know very hard to understand what what really do we all need you know we understand now we need to survey right even though we don't understand why we really need a survey because Town's already got that it's on file you can bring it up and it shows the CC 78 CCL going right through our pool but we still have to go and hire a contract or a surveyor to do that and if we're going to find out after the fact once we get that done they say oh by the way now you have to apply to D for for just to rebuild an existing pool that was already there the exact same situation it it just seems odd to me that the process is not that process should be more clearly defined for us we're just trying to get our our our complex back it's been two years and and you know the whole thing has just been a nightmare right and it's because of not understanding but none of us have gone through I don't know who else has gone through a major hurricane like this before probably nobody I'm on the board and none of the other board members really understood any of this either right and the the the assistance that we're getting is not clear you know I would have liked when I first came in here and sat down and talked to the people at the Town them to tell me you've got to do this and then you're going to have to apply to D now you can speed up the process by doing that now too do both of them right away because ultimately you're going to need to do that pay the fees because then we have to have a board meeting and then we have to approve spending the money on it and it's like we already had a board meeting to approve spending the other money we could have done that at the same time right right so it it's right that's my input on it right and and and I will just say that I I I understand your frustration and that's why I'm here um because it's frustrating for me as somebody uh administering a program um when I recognize that a lot of the uh inadequacies is because people are totally ignorant of the process I mean most people didn't know like you just articulated don't even know there's a control Line running through their property or that see whatever control they never heard of it and the only reason they heard of it is because there was a storm and now I'm trying to do something and I just found out wait there's a cccl um and so you know for that I I'm I apologize that there's not enough information out there for people to know right off the bat which is why I'm showing you the tools that we have for people to become aware that still won't answer all your questions and it never will but at least it it gives you a starting point and hopefully a better starting point and not not only is it a better starting point all our information is on there um because I'm the administrator but I won't be the permit manager for long we we've hired two two new people I mean I had a new person start on Friday and had to abandon them to be here this week but we we are trying to get people up and running because I'm the administrator not the permit manager but right now I'm I'm actually because I have two vacancies uh and managing Seven Counties and being an administrator too so it's been a lot for me and so you know it's it's just one of those balancing acts that you have and that's why I'm quick to look at things when they first come in the door because if I can say this is one less or this is one that it helps to cut down on frustration because there's a 30-day review window which I haven't even gotten to but there's a 30-day review window and so you don't want people finding out later in the process because it just adds to the frustration now I will say that um just to not dwell here too long but the reason for surveys is because there are a lot of other nuances that go along with building swimming pools and just building in general but definitely building swimming pools that come into play uh about why you need a survey yes I understand we could look at an aeriel and the aeriel can clearly tell us where your pool was when you stand up it's like oh there's a pool but at the end of the day the reason for the survey is because we have to be able to say and and this is one of the things that that I wanted to get to just even going through the the application process is the survey has to be a recent survey why because we have to be able to measure those things that the rule says because we have all these other criteria that run in the background and one of them is the 30-year erosion projection and you need the mean High and the seasonal High uh Contours shown on your survey now if you have a survey especially if you rebuilding a pool in the footprint of the pool we try to give people a little bit a bit of a pass as to whether or not that survey but I don't know how long your condo has been in existence if you don't have a survey that's not within at least like the last two years or so we just say that's just way too old because if it's a survey that was conducted back in like 1980 well yeah that's that's not going to be very beneficial cuz it's not even going to represent what the area looks like now and we know that because it's been a storm but we try to give some waiver because there are some things we can wave and where we can wave things that we're not putting ourselves in a liability issue we we're doing so yes sir um the idea of running these uh applications concurrently sounds good in theory but isn't he going to need the uh approval for his D consistency letter before he even applies to D but my understanding and Chad you can chime in but my understanding is that to yes one of the application requirements and since you said it I'll go back here is right here number seven written evidence provided by the local appropriate government that has jurisdiction over that activity so that means but it says the thing is that does not contravene local setback and Zoning requirements so that's different than a building permit it's just a uh site plan review process that's usually handled by the planning department yeah correct so that's two separate um applications the building permit will be separate from an application for this letter of concurrence with our zoning policies does that make sense and that's a zoning but to get zoning to sign off on this consistency letter you're going to have to have a pretty good set of plans for the current survey so it it sounds good in theory that you can do this concurrently but at the end of the day if you don't have this approval from Fort Meers Beach your dtp perm isn't going to go so you could end up with a d conditional approval but then never get the city of for buers consistency so in our situation and obviously probably going be their situation as well um our pool contractor has written up a plan our pool contractor has written up a plan which he submitted to the town the town rejected the permit request and the permit was because we didn't have a survey that showed the 1978 cccl and they wanted better clarification on the location of the shower the foot washes where the um the new uh filtration system was going to be and if he does that what you're saying is that the D will say unless that comes from the town then and is or as we show it's been approved by the town they'll just sit on it because it says right there written evidence but from the town that we need that so if correct me if I'm wrong we can't even proceed forward with this process until we finish the other process first and then how long does this process actually take that's a question for you well it it it literally depends on how complete the application is and again you're right now you're going to say well we're in a cash 22 absolutely because if you don't have that local approval letter these items that are on this on this fee worksheet I mean not fee worksheet but the application uh form those items have to be either addressed by saying they're attached in included or waiver requested but you have to have and as you notice those first uh one two three three items there there is no waiver you can't get a waiver for the local approval you can't get a waiver for the fee you can't get a waiver for uh evidence of ownership so those things at a minimum have to be provided in order to say that you have a complete application otherwise the rest of those things we will write you a request for additional information letter and in it we note these are the things that you have provided or these are the things you have provided but they're yet lacking uh uh information that's spelled out in 62 b33 the rule if we don't have to write you a letter uh because statutorily which we're driven by chapter 161 that's our Florida statute which is the law we have 30 days to review a new application to see if that application is satisfactory if not we write a request for addition information letter if it's okay then guess what your application is deemed complete upon arrival not when somebody looks at it but upon arrival when we have a completed application we have 90 days to issue a permit so theoretically if you had a complete application walking in the door you get your permit in 90 days it could be before then because I we do have a contractor that's coming in and trying to help with all this because not only is it the the the Lee County and the uptake of of applications that are starting to come in but Valia County got hit really bad too because they got hit hit by Ian not clearly as worse as you all did but and then they lost a lot of their Coastal armoring structures their bulkheads or their seaw walls but then Nicole came six weeks later and did like knock down half the ones that were even damaged after Ian and so as a result that area fushia County and Flagler County our our uh last I heard cuz I kind of got out of that is 800 applications for just that one area so we've hired a contractor because that's a lot of that's a lot of uh uh applications to review and unfortunately with every storm gee Here's a thought tell legislator every time you have a a major hurricane it should equate to additional positions in the control line program because we don't have the staff to manage those kind of things but that's why they do allow us to hire contractors so we have a contractor that comes in and he tries to get things done rather quickly in terms of Permitting so it may not take the 90 days but I only said that to say it's a 90-day process once we have a completed application if there is this like you all were just talking about the the survey and not having the local uh written authorization if you don't have that and we have to wait for that to come in well you don't have a completed application until we get that so how long that time span is I can't say I don't know how long that would take but it is something that is to be considered in terms of your timing and once we get a completed application we're trying to do our our our darnest to get it done as as as soon as we possibly can in that 90-day and not later in that 90day window yes um you know you mentioned about the survey and we we had a survey done eight months ago thinking things would move move along you know and in within two months or so of the survey it we'd be in a process you know to get our approvals well it's been eight months now and by your regulation your rule it says if it's 6 months longer than six if it's older than six months then you have to get a whole new survey and you just mentioned a while ago well if it's 2 years out we might accept it so which way is it well I mean yes it is required by rule I mean it says it right there in in in item number uh 10 that if you're providing a or I'm sorry eight that you provide a survey that survey has to be uh conducted from a field date not more than 6 months from when you submit the application and but we understand that resources are limited we're just trying to work with what we have but yet do it in a way that we don't put the department in some liable issue because we can document why we didn't accept something or why we did say it was acceptable even if it did this um I think as we were talking if you're landward as far landward past the stero Boulevard I mean I'm not going to make somebody spend money to go get a survey just for the sake of there but I can justify that I can have some documentation that if we were ever called on question had to be audited I mean because all these things things go on who cares if you're trying to get back to life right but we have to do these things because as a regulatory entity we have to be aware that audits are conducted people May challenge so we have to do things according to what the rule says and so yes we can document and show that this is the reason why this was accepted or this was not accepted in that case if we're doing something that out that exceeds that but yes now I will say this what I'm seeing a lot of the surveys is not so much whether it's a six-month issue or not it's the surveys because to me if they conducted the survey right after the storm so at least I see how because the the the the sandy beach has not changed much I mean there's not been that much accretion there's no formation of Dunes that quickly so if you did a survey early in two 2023 so that was after the storm I will accept that but the problem I having is that people don't get the information on the survey that they're required to get on the survey so I have to write an REI saying well you don't have all the information on the survey and particularly the seasonal High the mean High the erosion control line those are non-negotiables if I have a survey and it does and the cccl believe it or not I've had people submit surveys and they don't even have the cccl on there well how do I really know you're within my jurisdiction I could be making this up well question to that for example I got a survey we're back one lot off of the we're we're landward of the Blue Line General permit line okay but and so we have nothing to do with Dunes but there's a a property in front of us right okay but when we had the survey done they they don't generally put the the cccl line or the general you know permit line or how far from the mean water you are that's usually not on a survey they're just surveying here's your boundaries and that's the difference so that means you got to go to a surveyor and have them redraw something that totally encompasses the area around you they got to survey all of that which to me is because it shows just like this gentleman said it shows on the map you even sent me which I really appreciate and I appreciate you being here I mean I wish this was done a year and a half ago right it would have helped a lot of people with a lot of time right but you know just like he said I can look at that print and it shows exactly my property it shows exactly where the water low water high water whatever you call it it shows the the the VAR ious C triple CL lines right on that map and then my property survey says here's the property that's designated and and here's their survey gives an elevation you know and it it gives the boundaries but it fits within that whole bigger you know map that it's been done after as well as my survey has been done after long after after the storm so it it's it's like I I don't understand the duplication why that wouldn't be waved or or I guess what you're telling me is I got to go get a survey and he's got to survey the entire area well again it's not the entire area but again we have the provisions of what is required for a suitable survey it's in rule you know that's why I'm here to try to give some education I mean you surveyors anybody here who's a surveyor okay so we're missing the people that really could benefit from this conversation because they're the ones that need to know that there are requirements for surveying um but at the end of the day it's the property owner's responsibility because we don't go after the surveyor we go to the property owner why because it's your property not the survey and I mean I'm not saying that they're not to be held liable because when somebody puts their sign and seal and you're paying them for a service you expect them to provide you the level of service that you're you that you've paid for but at the end of the day we're an organization that has to be able to uphold our rules and regulations and so if again I will not accept a survey that doesn't show the control line I can't it has to show the coal Construction Control line as well as your property boundaries relative to that control line okay so basically what you're saying is this isn't really a survey when you buy a house you have to have a survey okay they survey your property yeah it's a property boundary survey they don't but that's what it generally a survey is so you're saying there has to be almost call it something different a coastal survey that includes your property and three or four other factors that are not normally you know based on on a survey when you tell somebody I need a survey they come out and they survey your property they don't survey the rest of the neighborhood to show where all the coastal lines are yeah so what I want to show you Jacob can you expand this a little bit for me um I understand the role which is you're like telling everybody nobody's going to be accepted there's nobody when you say a survey I can send a survey I had done yesterday okay but then I have to do something separate I have to tell the surveyor this isn't a normal survey of my property I need these three or four other components in this survey and and now we're getting into nobody has that survey question kind of related to that I have our survey pulled up um it's tiny on my phone but I found those four things that you mentioned um but the problem is it was 3 years old this month is there someplace so I'm concerned about the age of ours is there some place where we could you know email and say is this going to be accepted or do we have to get another one the town has said it's okay for what we have to do here for the zoning and that kind of stuff but I don't want to get to some point and then say okay now it's not good enough now you have to wait on the new survey right so is there someplace we could contact we could send it to and have them look at it and review it and say yes or no we'll take that or not well because this is a for that includes everybody I'll take a look at it when we get finished if you able to be around or that's what I plan to do for Tuesday and Wednesday is be here to talk to people oneon-one about their specific project or specific questions that they may have but I can take a look at it just to see um but at the end of the day uh it's it's it's the survey requirements and the survey requirements as I was getting ready to show here 0.0081 and it's a topographic surgery and I and I get that it's it's a little different than the boundary survey that uh typical uh house um has but you live in an an untypical area so unfortunately when you live there you have to give us what we have to have in terms of being able to um make sure that we have done our due diligence to uphold the rule and statute that we have before us and that's why the topographic surve survey is required like I said that kind of is not really a moood point but it is a point because at the end of the day we know there's no vegetation we know there's no Doom features it's just all sandy beach but still at the end of the day we have to make sure that even what you're doing is not somehow violating our criteria which I hadn't even gotten into but the criteria for permitting 05 that's the things that we have to be able to check the list to say you either get a permit or you don't get a permit um I think part of the frustration you're having is that a typical boundary survey that you would get for $700 is not going to come near providing the information that you need to fill out the plans that need to go to D it's a much yeah it's considerably different um it's the difference between a $700 survey in a $1,500 or $2,000 survey I can't I think I can you go down you go word I can't see from here am I on it to the left to the left oh okay didn't even think about that sir thank you so the thing about when you click on these things and you go just to a specific section it tells you when the last times these sections were revised so it tells you over here what it is the description the date it was last revised um but otherwise you just click here and it opens up that particular um criteria associated with what You' selected there we go yeah there we go so these are the survey requirements and again as I've indicated we do try to under the circumstances wave some of these items as we can but at the end of the day we have to have something that we can defend so we have to make sure that for the most part I mean and like I said to me it's a non-negotiable because how can I stand in court and defend something and say oh yes see what to the control line and I don't know that I mean and it's just it's it's our governmental system but then again I'm trying to use a practical approach in at the same time but I still have to make sure that the things that we have to say we have we have so that there's no way to defend why did you get a survey and it didn't have the control line yes sir thanks for your time Miss Jackson absolutely this is a very complicated topic and I've been dealing with it for the last couple of years trying to figure it out I understand the rationale for all the information that you're looking for on that survey but in some cases we're having problems locating like the 1978 cccl line um even though that's not under your jurisdiction that's a town of Fort mys Beach issue that's still the back so we can't go any further back than that line and you're requiring that we show that on the survey no no no maybe locally they do but we don't yeah correct so again Miss's jurisdiction at the 1991 triple CL the 1978 for the town's requirements is just a it's just a local zoning line we can't go beyond that line for the setback so maybe you're the wrong person to ask but we've got to find that line and I'm currently dealing with one right now where I have two different survey companies and they're coming up with two different answers and we're trying to we're trying to you know find out where that is get get with you on that okay all right but we understand the reason why you want all this different information and it is very daunting all the things that you want on that survey but I know when it comes to the 91 line you want us to know exactly where we are location of that line because that's your jurisdiction and then once the foundation goes in we actually need to verify that we're on that point that we gave you that we haven't exceeded that so we understand it's very complicated but I thank you so again um to the survey point and maybe we can move on um I I I try to as much as I possibly can like I said give a practical context to what's required I mean first of all I understand that we're not going to send somebody out to spend money just for one or two items but if it's something that I have to have to to be able to justify and there are just some things like I said the the seasonal High the mean High the control line I have to have those why because I have to make sure that the 30-year erosion projection is accounted for because that's a statute right that's a law so I have to be able to make sure that I have I mean nobody likes to I mean I just drove down yesterday from from Tallahasse and I mean I I don't want to get a ticket right so you got to do what the law says if it says drive 70 75 whatever you want to do that so same with us with our application I have certain things that I have to make sure is there is a non-negotiable because it's a law and the law says that there are certain things that can't be built SE of of the 30-year erosion projection and literally that's the main reason why the mean High and the seasonal seasonal High have to be provided so that we can then make sure that we can check that and say that statutorily we meet that and this permit will be issued in good uh intention of of supporting that statute okay uh any more questions about this survey and I mean we'll stay here as long as we need to uh well not here long as we need to but on this point but I just want to make sure that everybody has what they need to kind of couldn't kind of move forward um because again some of the other things and again the reason why I I wanted to kind of go through this kind of like like as a as a peac mill but showing it in Great details because these are the things that I'm seeing that are are almost like stop Unstoppable points in terms of the the Rea getting Reis request for addition informations or just rejecting some things um and then the site plan is another one um so the site plan requirements are the same it has specifics in the site plan um so again if you go back to the application uh let's [Music] see so all right what's the fee worksheet so here the application so we've we've talked about the survey and great Lanes the next item would be the lighting plans um so if you're doing exterior lighting there needs to be some some designation about your lighting then the item after that the dimension site plan signed and sealed by a registered professional and again these citations that are included in the application are because that doesn't give you a whole lot of context on this application but you can turn to that citation in the rule and if you turn to that citation in the rule it gives you great detail about what we mean by having to provide a dimension site plan signed and seal so some of the things that are not being provided on the site plan which and and and and to your point sir about why we ask for the cccl or why we think the cccl should be shown because most people who get plans prepared they use the survey as the base layer to put everything else on because the survey shows what's existing and I understand in most of the cases there's nothing existing and that's fine but the survey should show what's existing the site plan should show what's proposed so the first key word is dimension I don't know people don't seem or they just get right across that but one of the first items if you go to the rule um here okay all right so here um can we can we expand that a little bit yeah just the uh sheet on the right if we can thank you so here it says here a dimension site plan the drawing shall be signed in by a registered professional the shite site plan shall include the location and exterior dimensions of all proposed structures and then skip through the and it says with the distances shown from the cccl so that's the reason why if you have a survey that has a cccl it makes it fairly simple for you to put together a site plan because the site plan already has it cuz you just lay on that survey what you're planning to do it makes it easier for me and it's a requirement by rule if you put everything on the site plan and one thing I've noticed is that there are multiple sets of plans that I've seen one person will have uh an architect's plan then they'll have the person who's the agent with their plans and sometimes the the the information is conflicting so that brings about inconsistencies because then I'm like okay well whose plans should I believe what information should I take from what plan and then that requires sometimes a request for additional information letter because I have to go back and say well why do I have this why why why do we have conflicting information and which one is really what I'm supposed to be using to write up the permit so exterior Dimensions that are required on the site plan makes it easier for me that I don't have to flip between this plan that plan this sheet this sheet it's especially when it's a requirement so Dimensions again overall length overall width of all the proposed structures so if You' got a house you've got a pool show the dimensions it just makes it a lot simple we can get it processed faster there are other items here that are required on the site plan but the biggest of those for me is the dimensions you know the the vegetation the location of the outlines of adjacent properties I mean clearly most adjacent properties are vacant so there's no real issue to have that shown on your site plan um again the mean high and seasonal High they're called out why because again we have to be able to verify that these proposed structures don't have a statutory impact called the 30-year erosion projection and that's the reason why those things are provided because sure we can have it on the survey but again if there's nothing on your site how do I verify because sometimes the the the the plans are not measurable um but we do everything we can to try to make things work because again we're not trying to um make this process any more cumbersome than it is but at the end of the day um if it's not giving me the information for me to even try to extract the information that's what makes it a challenge that's what makes it a challenge so those are the question yes yeah so um so let's say because everybody in this room needs to have a survey topographical survey so let's say we get the survey yes and looking at all the requirements for the drawings and has to be measured and whatnot um can we just use that survey say we like zoom in on it we print it we write in where our lights are where are you know the things that we're wanting to do that would not necessarily be on the survey would that suffice for you or do we need to have our electrician put a separate plan together that's layered on top of this and like how many different are you saying you want like the survey and then you want multiple Pages underneath that yes layering from electro so lighting cuz we did obviously need pool lighting but then of course we're on the beach so it has to be Turtle lighting yes and yes so can you explain that process and practically what we need to do yes for that yes and and that is true because most surveyors are not going to want to sign and seal somebody's electrical lighting plan I mean that's just why they they're a surveyor they they don't they have no understanding of that so yes you do need to have and and and to your point if I think I remember hearing you correctly at at the initiation you have a condominium so un fortunately with Condominiums lighting is not reviewed by us in terms of the cccl program uh um staff members we send those out and coordinate with Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission and it's because when it's Condominiums as what was said to me years ago and and I've been saying hey we need to revisit this because is this really happening because if it's not really happening we just need to stop it you know but my understanding is is that Condominiums generally have to apply for um District authorizations because of them being Condominiums and having certain size and capacities on their property so there was a Alliance of formed years ago such that FWC Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation so you know but FWC was supposed to review those application contents so that there was not duplicative review somebody wasn't submitting to the district the district was utilizing the Florida Fish and Wildlife staff in Tallahassee and then we'd send them something so there would be two reviews for the same activity I don't know if that's still the case but until somebody says that that's not what we're supposed to do when you have a condominium your lighting plans get submitted to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation for their review and comments they're not a regulatory agency they're a commenting agency so everything that happens to them is through us so you submit it to us now we won't say you can't ever reach out to them and try to get a response ahead of time because we're in the process of looking at our Rule and might that might be something that we change our rule to say is that you got to have a prior approved lighting plan with FWC just so that way it gets out of the way and that's not a stickler to keeping people from moving forward in our process in terms of getting per is okay so for practical purposes we get the survey we we send you the lighting and then you send that portion of our application to Wild light well we send the whole thing but yes well they have to look at believe it or not they will look at everything in terms of how they have questions as it relates to Turtles but they look at the contents of all of the records but their primary responsib is to look at the lighting and see how that lighting may or may not impact Marine Turtles in their nesting habitat so in your experience in your experience how long does that take a long time how what what's a long time they it's it's and of course this broadcast so I'm trying to be very uh very um guarded but at the end of the day it does take a while um 6 months a year how long I have no idea I really don't because sometimes they they ask for information and and I'll say this because I'll go on record in saying this because I say it all the time um I tell people s submit the the lighting requirements because you you have to if it gets to a point where your lighting contractor can't come to terms with FWC then withdraw the lighting and you get a permit but you won't be able to install the lights until you can come back and get things worked out but at least that gets you started with building the structure that's my practical approach because I think it's it it sometimes gets to the point where uh at one point FWC was had a high turnover and with their High turnover you'd have one person that would start out reviewing it they'd be gone somebody else picks up you got a whole another set of asks that were different than the original asks that you had and so it it can be a bit frustrating it's frustrating on my end because I'm just trying to get people moving in getting their structures back up but on the other vein one of our rule requirements is to make sure that we're not doing something that's going to have a significant adverse impact on Marine Turtles in their nesting habitat so it's kind of like I'm I'm in a catch 22 because I have to that's why I said we're going to revisit whether or not that becomes something that we really need to do that we need to continue to do because right now that is what we do so the the 90 days to issue the permit includes the wildlife submission so let's say we submitted our application to you July 1st 90 days from there we that's a completed application okay let's just assume best case scenario we have everything we submit it July 1st 90 days from there we can expect a an issued permit from you that includes approval of the lighting plan no I cannot say that because I cannot speak to whether they will give you approval that quickly I cannot because I mean just being 100% candidate I have never seen an lighting plan come in that the day it comes in they don't ask for more information and it's just that's where we are with the Florida Fish and Wildlife and I'm not I'm not trying to say that I don't like turtles I mean that's I think everybody loves a turtle right absolutely adorable but at the end of the day we have to rely on them to provide us their recommendations when it comes to these swimming pools and things like that I'm like I said I'm the administrator I'm going to talk to um the program administrator and see if we can just try to cut the chase for some of these things because you're taking people through the mill when they're just trying to rebuild a pool that they had previously yeah exactly but right now that's just the way right it's already there right it's just filled with we'll talk we'll talk are you going to have appointments for the next few days I don't know if it's appointments Chad is it or just walk-ins yeah so uh Miss Jackson will be here for Tuesday and Wednesday just kind of a walk-in first come first serve rather than trying to deal with appointments and scheduling yes sir we we have a project in Sun bille yes and we had some issues with the lighting yes um so did I hear you correct when you said that we could drop that in order to get the permit then we come can come back after we in the on the construction and work that out yes okay IO yes I I I hate that it has to come to that sometimes but I just tell people rather than continue to get requests for additional information on their staff and more information or we call you complete because as you'll see here in our rule requirements it literally says for structures with proposed permanent exterior lighting a dimension marine turtle lighting plan that includes all exterior lightings drawn to an appropriate scale you submit that really from the de's perspective you you should be cons consider Complete because it didn't say well what if somebody doesn't like what you've got it doesn't say that it says it shall include these now if you give us a table that matches us that and it has all that technically that's a completed item yeah but Flor white oh I know trust me you you're you're preaching to the choir and and and I and I and I definitely understand yes ma'am it's that the same uh with Landscaping yes require with Landscaping you're requiring both the scientific name and the common name and uh is is that a thing that you could let lapse and go back and if it's just Landscaping only or are you talking about Landscaping with lighting probably individually makes more sense huh so when it's landscaped with lighting that's when you get into the whole and and and and again I preference all of that and say all of that is is just a multif family dwelling or a commercial structure is when FWC has to get involved but if it's for private residents and I think you sir said it was a condomini it's a pool house so that it's a pool house that no one lives in would get you into the same category of FWC having to be the person that does the review yeah yeah unfortunately unfortunately but you don't have to do it if it's a single resident no we we still have lighting reviews because again that is part of our responsibility is to make sure that the lighting is is compliant but it's only the way that we have managed things for the 25 years that I've been there that if it's a multif family or commercial structure it goes to the Florida Fish Wildlife Conservation conservation for their recommendations so for a single family dwelling I don't have to show if I'm not going to have any you know splashy lights showing up in trees and all over I'm not going to have any I don't have to show anything well it it does say that for structures with propos permanent exterior lighting so that doesn't say whether it's multif family you know and again our attorneys will be the first to probably chime in and say well you're getting yourself in trouble because it doesn't even say what kind of structures it just says for structures with proposed permanent exterior lighting so that means whatever structure you you have if you're proposing exterior lights you have to provide lighting accordance with what the rule says so if I have no exterior light then you just come back here to the application where am I now it's okay you making me making me have to change too fast so you go back here to the application and on the application page where uh here it is here that's the Fe worksheet so it's here nope there so here under number nine up at the top says attached St included or says waver requested so you could click here for structures check the box for uh waiver requested come down here and say number nine no exterior lighting proposed that's it okay that's it so again that site plan because that's where we started all this number 10 number 11 grading plan the grading plan is something that uh shows your excavation what are you cutting and filling and then supported by that is number 12 which is the crosssection so the crosssection shows you from the control line to the mean High and it gives you like sometimes people will do it in a very central location across the site but it really doesn't give me the benefit of the information that we're looking for which is if you're putting a pool that cross-section should go through the pool because it gives me a a perspective of from the control line to the mean High what does that site look like what the structures are and and if there is a pool it shows like a slice through the pool so you could see top and bottom and it actually says that it should be referenced because again that's just the application but to actually see what's described in there you would come here to the rule in nope uh yeah down here so yeah oh right here so where it says grading plan a dimension grading plan existing and proposed elevations proposed excavation and fill and then of course it talks about for multifamilies if you're doing significant excavation there's a lot more information that's required for for multi families because again when I was the uh permit manager I processed applications in County I know this is Lee and things are different over here on the West side of the state but the reason why we had to break things out is because when you've got multifamilies down there multifamilies down there means multifamilies I mean I was permitting 50 story 271 unit Condominiums all the time and most of those structures had upwards of 35 50,000 cubic yards of excavation because they would have to put in these gigantic well first of all it's because they're trying to maximize their profit for the amount of space that they have I mean that's that's where we live in America right so they're putting in these massive structures and when they're putting in these massive structures they're having to dig so deep because you know they are parking uh requirements for the number of units that you have so they put in these below grade uh um I mean I'm sure all of us have gone Daytona Beach whatever it's the same setup you drive underground that's where your parking garage is and so they had to remove a lot of material in order to build those understructure parking garage and in so doing because you're SE of the control line and that's one of the rule requirements is that any material that you excavate SE of the control line has to be maintained on the site SE the control line that's why we have a requirement for grading plan and a cross-section so we can make sure that we're me meeting that provision of the rule that we know how much material you're cutting out where you're putting that material on a plan View and the the cross-sectional conceptual top and bottom and uh you've given us a table that shows those proposed volumes estimated volumes because I've even had projects over the years where a person did not get accurate information from their designers and get the project almost 100% completed and they got a pile of 2,000 cubic yards of sand cuz somebody underestimated I don't like that that that's a pretty uncomfortable situation because now the project is pretty much done and now we're scrambling trying to figure out where is all this material going to go and we do have a compliance and enforcement section which deals with these kind of issues where if a person then doesn't have and you can get fined you know so we're trying to help you in the in the in the beginning not to get to that phase while sometimes it may seem like it's Overkill or it's overburdening but it's because again we don't want to have things so that we get to the end of the the line and now we've got all this material that we don't know what to do with so that's what the criteria talks about with grading and making sure that we understand what those volumes are now to these two people that have asked about existing pools that mean it should it should not be an issue because you already have a pool that's existing so it shouldn't be because I would imagine you're just going to take the shell out and put it back you're not going to move it anywhere else on the site so it really should be a fairly simplistic issue which I can you know talk to both of you all at some point but at the end of the day I'll see you tomorrow so at the end of the day those those those are different situations you know uh when things are existing and also from the standpoint of that's considered Redevelopment versus something that is totally gone and you have no way to reconcile what was there versus um what wasn't there and again I try to take a practical approach yes sir so when a project requires import bill um is there any I mean I know that one of the rules talks about beach sand yes that's not for fill underneath the buildings is it that's just for for Beach re nourishment or rment it it's it's it's for it's for all facets of the site if you're bringing in imported fill it has to be Beach quality because look at what we just had happened if you were to put stuff under a house and it's some kind of uh Georgia Clay well all of that gets drug out to the beach when there's a storm right so the whole point is you have to make sure that it's Beach compatible material anywhere see what of the control line that you're placing it on the site whether that's Beach Ian we have about structural fill for building driveways well if it's SE of the control line it has to be Beach compatible sand yeah what you say no basement yeah no no because again the the whole point is um like I said that that sand becomes mixed in with the system and then you're talking about all these other people that have concerns in species and all that other kind of stuff so it's just better to just uh make sure that we got Beach Quality Sand across the whole site across the whole site all right and um I think cross-section uh the rest of the the application requirements most people because it's funny cuz I did um the the last um um permit manager responsibility I had before I became the environmental administrator was Coastal armoring which that says rigid Coastal structures and that I had to review that for the whole state so not the whole state because people I still get calls from people that are likeing Orange County hey you're your says you're the coastal no no no I'm not I'm not for real it's the control line Statewide but they see the word Statewide and they literally think that means Statewide but rigid Coastal structures um is the coastal hardening you know be it uh rock revetments or be it vertical walls and I have not seen many of those over here in Lee County I don't know if it's just Fort Meers Beach and there are other areas where there really are um I'm I'm I'm anxious to go because we're supposed to go out this afternoon so hopefully the the rain because I looked at the forecast this morning hes off so I can see because I I don't see many of those in Fort Myers Beach and I think that's because uh Fort Myers Beach has the benefit of a beach project so that makes a difference with hardening those rigid Coastal structures but that's what that means if you were doing that that's what would be required and uh for the most part you know you just click on the application that you're not that's not even part of your uh part of your your review all right so I think that's pretty much the the 33 I wanted to just quickly touch on 34 um because the requirements for 3 34 are just a little bit different not in that we are not still needing information to assess the project it's really how we review that material and also to go to the um the aial here so again as we talked earlier this blue line is the general permit line what's a no-brainer is if you have a general permit line and your L your structure is Lang of the general permanent line and of course obviously you're still SE of the cccl then you can build pretty much that's that's something that doesn't require a lot of of a lot of extra input it's when you start I want to be SE of the GP line that it becomes a problem because because if your structure that you're replacing and and also it's the context of not just the property itself it's what you're doing so if the structure is going to be seal of that General permit line that's generally considered the first line of construction and that's not something that you could probably do Under The General permit process but clearly people that are landward I'm trying to work with them okay your landw let's just have a conversation about what you need to submit because there is no request for addition information process it has to be completed because it's a 30-day turnaround um but again the surveys are the requirements are still the same you got to have a topographic survey it's got to show all this stuff it's got to show the GP lines mean High season High all of that is Cap captured in 62b 34 I know so many things but not too many people people are um well they're they're submitting the general permit but they're submitting it when they really mean to be submitting the individual because like I said that's the nomenclature I think that's on the website that I'm going to do something about because to say General permit and people think that that means that's just the regular permit that I'm supposed to go through is a little confusing so um let's see here all right so here okay so here's the application for the general permit thank you again it looks almost conceptually the same except it says application for a general permit the owner the agent again all of this is required signatures a description address and as you can see there's not as much information here and it also has two headings applicants with projects landward of a general permit line are required to submit the following items 5 6 7 89 see sounds pretty but it's really not straightforward then it says in addition to the above application items applicants with projects that are not lward of a general permit line are required to submit the following items and again because this goes into the whole do you really meet some of the other criteria um because the general permits are supposed to be designed to if you've got something that's pretty simple um well and probably all of you are going away saying nothing is simple from what I take away today none of it simple but at the end of the day uh the statute which is again the law said that we had this ability to to utilize this platform and it's under 161 I believe it's like 18 number 18 and it said that we can issue these things because what it says is that the person is noticing you that within 30 days they're going to begin construction but we didn't want people just running them muck and just going out there oh I'm going to do this and then we had stuff that was improperly cited or improperly constructed um so we came up with this supporting rule because the statute is usually very Loosely written if you will and in broad sweeping terms because it has to apply to every place around the state whereas when you get into the rule it gives you the specifics that have to be met and the things that have to be submitted to support your request so in this case um it says application fee and this is what I said I noed some of the stuff is is not been updated because it says 030 but it's actually 040 um so there's some things that I that I realized here well it does say 03 for that and in 04 zero so that that is right but the uh application fee is spelled out there not on the fee worksheet because some people will go and get the fee worksheet which is associated with the project we just the the process we just talked about in 62b 33 versus what's here in 34 and the fees for 34 see if I can get to the uh um trying to get to the rule okay here we go no that's permit there we go so rules in the Microsoft Ion at the bottom okay okay there we go another yeah that was the survey requirements can I go back yeah okay good uh oh went too far back forward all right so how do you get to 34 you would you have to just type in 34 yeah oh wait wait wait I can get to our page because if I go to the um show navate uh oh what that now now you can show them how to navigate your page well yeah there you go so here's the general permit application and we'll go back and we get to the general permit okay rules so there you go that's where you find all the rules 62b 33 and 62b 34 and you click there and then here we get to the full rule that down yeah my problem is seeing yeah right so oh4 which is that's the actual application procedures under 030 and here's the application fees under 040 yes sir uh I think I missed the relationship between 33 and 34 I understand there are different sections of the administrative code right but are you saying that for structures SE word of the cccl we need permits under both sections or no sir no no no no sir it you you can apply for either or what I was trying to do and maybe I didn't do that very well obviously not if you had the question um was to show you that in some context where you have a general permit line so that's the blue line that's shown on the aial there that's this blue line is reped by everything I'm talking about now in 62 b34 uh let me close that so I don't keep opening it and close that so 34 is specifically right it's specifically it can be some things se but not much you know you're not going to get the benefit of of much being SE to the the general permit line and being able to say you qualify because there's a whole list of criteria once again criteria um so if we are landward of the general permit line but cord of the cccl we are under 34 and we don't have to worry about 33 that is correct I would strongly encourage that if you have that scenario like if the first thing you do is you go to the map direct you see your property and it shows both a general permit line well General permit line and Coastal Construction Control line and your property is within that I would strongly encourage someone to use that platform why it's a 30-day window and the fees are the most you can pay is $500 it's even less than that depending on what you're doing which is what I was saying here where it talks about the fee and the fee is called out specifically here if I can find it looking the uh actual rule I opened I know I open it there it is okay so right here it says 040 application fees and there it tells you what your fees are minor structure $100 Dune restoration $100 non-habitable major structures $300 uh swimming pools $300 single family dwellings $500 minor reconstruction of armoring I don't know if that says three or five and then it says in that next sentence that if you're proposing one or more activities your fee is $500 it's the it's it's can never be more than $500 but that's what some people Miss they'll send in the fee worksheet for the administrative process and have single family $4,000 swimming pool 1,000 it's like yeah no no that's wrong fee you don't even need the worksheet but they don't see that it says here on the rule the actual copy of the rule here that let's see here yeah here we go so here it says that the fee is in conjunction with 04 but people just go straight to what they see on the website where it says fee worksheet but that is your fee for a 62 b34 so the fees are much reduced the time is much reduced but we don't get a chance to ask for information so you have to pretty much know that if you're submitting this you meet all these requirements I mean again you have to have sufficient evidence of ownership again the local approval uh the signed and S survey and all of our surveys say six months because that's what everybody feels like when they created this rule was the maximum amount of time that things don't change enough that we could allow people 6 months um again that's always something that can be looked at a little differently unfortunately with the GP you just don't get that by you have to have everything such that it meets this because you don't have the long time frame to look at things and review things and send comments back it has to pretty much be you got it right up front when you submit it and then the dimension site and gr grading plan which meets the same criteria as uh 34 but um you need to submit a site plan a dimension site plan and a a dimension Grady plan this becomes an option like I said if you fall within that zone where you're landward I would say try to use that platform because it's a quick turnaround um you do have to mail in the check though for and and I'm working on our it guys too uh that well the programmers because you can pay the fee for 33 online but you can't pay the fee for a general permit you have to still mail that in I was like well wait that's kind of backwards that would be the the process that needs it the most because they got 30 days to to get things processed processed so I asked them if they could go back and and change the language so that we can have that happen but right now the way the rule is written you do have to mail in your check um for the 62b 34 process and um I think that was it because I know this gentleman had a question about the fee for 34 I don't know if anybody else has any other questions about 34 kind of went through that quick because not a lot really falls under that that provision I mean there are some properties that I'm seeing that are coming in where they're on the seet side and because it's a it's a single family dwelling or and I'll say this because one of the criteria for the GP the general department is that you cannot have a pool that's greater than 2 feet below grade so if you got a pool and it's not elevated and you're trying to put in a five or six foot deep pool then that kicks you out of the G process so that's some of the things that I've seen or I've seen where they have excavated material but then they were saying oh we we don't have a place so we need to put this on another site well you can't do that under the GP process either so there are just some limiting things that people don't recognize about the general process that I just don't try to like go right on in but just say the safest thing is if you're in that region yes maybe take a look at that or give me a call cuz look I'm here to answer any questions uh even when I get somebody hired and put in this in the county responsibility I'm still going to be there to provide oversight but at the end of the day it's just because I understand and and know that people are trying to get up and running as soon as they can and and I'm strongly trying to encourage that but here again there's just limitations on the areas where that becomes applicable so a quick question you mentioned some things that are uh off author isable with the field permit yes can you um just give a summarize which those activities okay so generally speaking and I wish Kelly had been here she could really uh articulate that for for herself um but minor structures um the whole process of the field permit and again that's something that you would just contact our field uh rep who is Kelly Kramer and her information is on our website um but you contact her and uh let her know you're interested in getting a a fill permit and it's literally a form she fills out you sign it and that's the end end of the story um those processes are supposed to be minor and without controversy um one of the things that we have found over the years is that when we had Dune walkovers which by all accounts they're minor except because there's always an exception with the control line program if you're building Ada Dune walkovers or you're building walkovers that have major ramps which typically translates into adaa as well or they're like using 10-inch post those are not considered minor so those would not qualify under a field permit process the other thing about Dune walkovers is if you're building them in an easement or some kind of RightWay because that tends to be something that and I'm sure you guys can appreciate these that are representing your Condominiums some people in the condom just don't want to go along with what you got going on imagine that right so we don't like to do things when we have those kind of situations where it could potentially backfire and somebody challenge it and it's under a field permit process because we've had litigation before about doing walkovers and easements so the guidance was given to the field inspectors not to uh manage those on their level but to kick them up to to administrative level inh housee when T has they want to say inhouse but the things that they do is Dune walkovers when they're four 4 in post um six in some cases if it's a condominium um four to six feet wide uh like I said no ramps uh no encased in concrete um minor decks and again if they're on grade or power supported you're not taking out a lot of vegetation to do these things so it's just like basic things that just don't really increase the level of what could potentially be impacts to the beach and dun system or to marine turtle habitats nothing with lighting can be done under a field permit process absolutely cannot because again it's light and that always either has to be reviewed by somebody in tasse or it has to be something that FWC does sand uh they can issue permits for sand uh whether it's a an erosive event erosive event or if is uh storm related um they do have uh maximum amount of of material that they can issue in those uh field permits a lot of times in conjunction and you know Kelly I really appreciate her uh and she's been around for uh a few years and so she really understands the job and a lot of times she'll call me and say hey I got this what do you think and I'll just say hey put it on the field permit you did this based on conversation with me why because again I'm looking at yes protecting the department protecting myself in what we do but also let's get things done I mean let's just don't hold people up for the sake of holding people up so um you know Dunes sand for Dunes Sands for loss of material vegetation planting uh you don't need a permit to do demolition except again if you're not luring taking down the existing grade more than a foot so you can do demolition but it doesn't mean you can go down and and cut out a basement if there's a basement there and do that under uh no permitting required so if you're taking out pilings well depends on how they're taking them out if they're just going to they're just going to if they're just going to pull them out no but if they actually going to do an open cut to remove them yes because you're Excavating you're having to do some kind of and it doesn't mean that it couldn't be done it's just that um we want to make sure again one of our major criteria for issuing any kind of permit is do we have a good understanding of where the excavated material is going especially if it's sealed to the control line so that's the reason why we shy away from those kind of requests being handled under a field permit process um yes sir in the back um say hurricane and brush up a bunch of sand from a Dun system and put it right in people's houses they need a permit for that to remove the sand or they can just do that on their own okay and that and that and that's something I didn't really go through a lot and only because like I said two years out I mean we even actually still have the emergency order active and the reason for that was because more driven by the valua county situation where um there was a grant in place to allow people to capture some of the cost for what they were doing with their Coastal armoring uh but at the end of the day um the um um if allows certain it delegates so efo emergency final order and those are the final orders that are issued by the governor and then translates into our secretary issuing a supplemental um uh emergency document that describes specifically Which counties are captured in that emergency process what things are allowed under that emergency process and under any emergency final order that I've ever seen drafted in the years that I've been here it always delegates some some activities locally um not a lot of uh municipalities want to encumber oh it's my responsibility issue permits or say what but it does putting sand back no issue because we want people to be able to push things back to where they just got pushed up from okay so they can move it back into the doing system but they can't just remove it and then take it off site yeah no you can't do that got it okay right and that's in any case whether it's emcy or not what about impacts done to a dune system that are in a easement or a common element of an HOA or something like that if impacts were caused by Hurricane Ian is that on the HOA to kind of restore that Dune system or is that something that you kind of coordinate with the D maybe the county or the city where does that line kind of fall it it kind of depends on what where that project Falls before the hurricane like is it under an already current uh Dune restoration location okay so is there already uh an ecl out there there's already a dune project out there uh because typically speaking most of the areas that have doing projects they come back and Place sand okay not immediately most times but they try to get to it as fast as they can to try to help because again like the D would saying or the city or right because when when there is a Dun project in place it's usually a project that is well first of all it's every time issued to a municipality a single uh resident or condominium cannot get a doom project because there are like easements Public Access uh uh issues and criteria that has to be demonstrated to say you're even eligible for a doom project okay so all of that if there's a doom project generally speaking they try to utilize because with all of these things there's federal dollars to get those areas back up because again as much as it seems like it's been convoluted in the discussions today we do want to try to get people back up and running as fast as we possibly can right we really do okay so if they if the HOA per example they own a parcel that's kind of over a vegetated dune system and it's not regulated by the city or county their responsibility kind of maintain that yes okay got it if it well is there a control line yeah this is all see where to the control line yeah so then it would be the hoa's responsibility fantastic thank you uh let's see I'm trying to make sure I I went over the major things um anybody have anything that I just thoroughly confused it and you need me to go back or you got enough to at least manage today and then you'll come see me I'd like to come see you okay absolutely I'm going to be here through Wednesday and then Thursday in Santa Bell okay I think if everybody else thank thank you all so much this great great opportunity here thank you so um you want to take a quick break and then come back for uh yeah we can do that you need like a a 10- minute breather yeah because we're going to um just kind of like answer some questions now right okay so um that's okay