in accordance with the open public meeting act in 1975 this meeting has been Andrew you really want to I gotta be really honor you you want to be like that yes so it picks up all right we'll we'll try it again then and you're on live TV too so just so that you know no pressure all right we we we'll try it again all right good evening everybody and welcome to the regular schedule Franklin tat of historic preservation advisory commission meeting is that better Vince good thank you uh in accordance with the open public meeting act 1975 this meeting has been appropriately noticed and hereby call to order uh we will start with the uh role of who's in attendance um I'm all this combobulated so let's just go from uh this side to that side on the Das ready with Bill Willam remember to use D Andrew Buy chair Dominic stanion Bob Lort PCH MAA and we do have a quorum for this evening um we do have one review action which is for our application 2024-25 eastn Avenue block 385 lot 2.07 this is uh a proposal for a 200 unit apartment building uh in the location of the former Kmart um we do have the applicant here so why don't you introduce yourselves for record uh and I'll let you uh go on with your presentation good evening Mr chairman members of the board thank you for the opportunity to be here this evening my name is John wisneski of wisneski and Associates I represent the applicant 11 properties uh on this application for a certificate of appropriateness from the historic preservation advisory commission I have with me tonight who will testify two of our professionals uh on the architectural side we have Dave minow of minow Wasco and on the engineering side we have Mike DeLuca uh of menow engineering and uh before we begin I just Mr chairman for the members of the board uh to give you a bit of a background on this application as you know where it's at it's known as ruter Plaza um it stands about the front of the building stands about 1,00 94 ft from standing on the canal path uh it's about 970 ft from the edge of the canal property uh we have been working on this application since 2019 uh when we first came before Municipal Professionals in an informal capacity to discuss trying to do something with the defunct Kmart box and so what we have tonight is a result of that that initial meeting starting in 2019 uh we had filed for review by the Zoning Board of adjustment uh we had withdrawn that we had then presented informally to the planning board uh suggesting that uh if the zoning board was not interested in hearing it maybe a rezoning of the property would be appropriate we put on all of the presentations and what you see tonight this application and the and the design that you see is a result not only of that initial application but as you know when you submit an application you get review letters from the municipal professionals and so what has been submitted here now is an application that has taken into account many of those suggestions that were in those Municipal review letters back from 2020 and so without belaboring the point any further I'm going to turn it over to Dave minnow who will walk you through the site plan uh and the views from the canal uh answering Mr chairman some of the questions that were in the historic preservation review letter then I'll go to Mr Duca and then we'd certainly be happy to entertain questions good evening I'm I'm can you hear me my name is David minnow with minnow and Wasco Architects and planners uh we're an architectural firm that has specialized in multif family residential um for the past close to 30 years we have about a 100 people in two offices we have 70 people in Lambertville New Jersey and about 30 people in Newark New Jersey uh what I wanted to start with and I'm sure you're very familiar with the property but this is an aerial photograph that is on the screen of the existing conditions at Rucker's Plaza so uh the building that's on the lower left of the plan or to the I guess the South uh Western portion of the site is the uh uh old Kmart uh structure uh 11 properties is proposing to put 200 a 200 unit apartment building in that location we're also going to facelift the retail stores that are to the right of that building uh across the parking lot um from the uh supermarket and uh I'll show you the elevations of those buildings as well uh so let me escape from this drawing and bring up um some of the architectural plans so uh this is a rendered site plan of that portion of the site in that southwest corner so the the e-shaped building that you see in this lower leftand corner is the 200 unit apartment building it's four stories in height uh the height from the grade to the uh roof deck is 46 fet 46.75 ft to the roof deck uh it's a it's a very nice contemporary building uh it's got a drop off in the front to give it a sense of an address and a covered entryway at the main entry to the building uh the as someone enters the building in that yellow area in the in the center you're in a uh a beautiful Lobby space and the two purple areas are amenity spaces which lead out to two Courtyards the courtyards face South basically South to get sunlight into them we have a pool in the leftand courtyard and a more passive Courtyard on the right hand Courtyard uh it's a double loaded Corridor building again with shape uh in plan and the corridors serve units on both sides we also um I think one of the questions in the review memo was how is trash handled in this building because it's an elevator serve building we're using a more modern technique of instead of having outside dumpsters we have an internal trash shoot which brings trash down to a trash termination room in the back of the building in this lower right hand corner so I'm on the right hand portion of the e in that gray area and both recycling is brought down from a trash room on each floor by building management and trash comes down through the shooters and is compacted the trash truck simply pulls up to the back of the building on trash day trash comes out gets loaded into the truck and the and the truck is gone there's no trash standing on the street the sidewalk on the curb it's a managed process through building management so um and in terms of grade on the back of the property I'm calling the back of the property the western side there's a hill in this grassy area that rises up to the apartment project behind us so the back is sort of down in a dip back there and it's actually well screened even from Kennedy Boulevard which is uh sloping down toward eastn Avenue uh there's there's pretty good buffer planting but this back parking and the service area for the building um really is pretty hidden from the general public um let me move on uh this this these are just sheets that are more architecturally oriented that give uh statistics related to the building itself um the plan on the left here that you're looking at is our roof plan and and um we have a par small parit around the building which would screen the uh the uh condensing units that would be on the roof we generally Place those over the center of the corridor uh to reduce vibration uh to the units below and it also from any pedestrian or vehicle um traffic in the area it would be screened and not seen these are low residential air conditioning units condensing units that are about the size you might have in a single family home maybe about 3 ft tall and they're in the center of the roof so they're not visible so here's a perspective uh from the northeast corner we're looking across the to the main entry on the right hand side here it has a slung canopy this drop off area in the front of the building where people would be dropped off where packages would be delivered that type of thing and the building is a contemporary building we we have found in the marketplace that people are looking for a more contemporary design today and um you know much of what we see in in the market uh has this type of flavor the materials are basically a a Hardy Board Siding a concrete siding which is Factory finished it's a great material long lasting material uh we do have some Hardy panel which is some of the lighter color and some of the uh the gray areas that are uh in between the modules of the building we have box bay windows we have uh what we call Romeo Juliet balconies these are just uh projecting about 18 in it's not really a sitting balcony it's a place where somebody can open a patio door and stand and and get some fresh air and have a view um and we tried to articulate the base of the building with a darker CER and the top of the building gets to be a little bit lighter uh as we get up toward the Sky uh this is the actual front entry of the building with a with a low slung canopy here with the identification of the building uh on top of that canopy and uh the cornice line of the building as you can see here breaks it's not a continuous single cornice but it breaks in height and it steps back so that there's good shadow on the building it's not a flat facade in either direction and then this is the view that you would see more from the Kennedy Avenue side or Kennedy Boulevard side uh with the front entry back over here on the left side and a secondary entrance uh toward Kennedy Boulevard this next plan is just diagrammatic it's showing um this the strip retail Center just adjacent to this building um the plan on the bottom shows the existing sort of divisions between the commercial tenants and then the new plan is on the top showing a different way we will be demising the building uh breaking up the spaces differently and again uh this is our facade treatments uh the drawing on the top gives you the entire facade of that building so the Residential Building would be to the right of this top drawing um and then the the commercial facade here again in a contemporary mode we see this more as a lifestyle type Center than your typical neighborhood strip center and I think Levan would like to you know change the character of this Center and really bring it up uh to uh today's standard so elevation a is really the left side of that whole long elevation it's just blown up in size and then elevation B at the bottom is the right hand portion of the long elevation um now these are some of the things that you may you don't have an elevation of the building with the existing retail do you showing the whole strip not not with the residential and that no so this drawing may be or this area photograph may be interesting to you this is it's it's called a reference map but it's showing you uh places where we've taken uh photography and then posed digital images of what you will see so the first image is going to be over here to the right side of Kennedy Boulevard um and the it's the Marone Plaza intersection so the direction of the photograph is the direction of that red arrow the second photograph uh is up here from uh the apartment project directly behind us and this is called The Park at Franklin so this is taken toward the rear of the building of the new residential building in this location the third photograph is taken from the uh toe path of the canal looking uh toward the project looking toward um Rec's Plaza so I'm going to this is just to orient you of the three photographs we're going to show you so this is the first photograph this is an actual photograph with our proposed building laid into to the photograph and this is done accurately with uh computer imagery so here you see the the Residential Building here the existing trees along uh Kennedy Boulevard uh block much of the view there this second photograph is taken from the parking lot of uh the park at Franklin apartments so you're at uh ey level someone standing in this parking lot lot looking toward our project and this is the residential building in the distance that you would see so approximately two stories of it are below the grade level of this apartment project so that's when I was describing how the back of our building sort of sits down in a Hole uh you're really only seeing two stories and it's really sort of matching the scale of the existing buildings that are uh in this older Apartment project here so the roof lines are sort of meeting the sky at about the same place and then I think one of the views that you're going to be most interested in is the view taken from the canal toe path and we took a very conservative view we took this as a winter photograph without leaves on the trees it's much different in the spring and summer and early fall um but let me run you through this bu the a uh building that you're seeing through the trees here is the existing Stop and Shop the B uh building that you're seeing right here is the uh Chase Bank the C uh element is the existing Monument sign uh at the entry to the uh project off of eastn Avenue and then uh D is the Wendy's which is actually uh uh on the far side on the on the close side of Easton Avenue from this Photograph um but that's an existing structure that you can see right there the existing Wendy's restaurant so you can see that the uh visual here it's we can't even really see the existing um uh building that was that exists there the uh the existing retail store in place of we're going to be where the Kmart was you can't really see that uh this is another drawing that you all have asked for it's a crosssection through the site so the red line if you Orient yourself I'm sorry the red the building that we're talking about the new residential building is the e-shaped building in the lower leftand corner and the red line is the cross-section line as if you took a and cut through the site and you were looking to the north I I am I'm going to do that that's a good comment so let me uh let me see if I can zoom in a little bit and that that's coming up the main Center Drive off of eastn Avenue that's correct it's coming right up that Center Drive and there's you well know at the entrance to Rucker Plaza there are existing retaining walls on on either side of that uh entry drive and they're fairly significant there's a great deal of grade change between eastn Avenue and even this restaurant pad site on either side the Chase Bank um there's a there's a great deal of grade change I our engineer can probably tell you exactly what it is but it's in the neighborhood of like 18 ft um but you can see the the section line is cutting through the canal and the toe path is on the Eastern side of the canal so um let me see if I can oh boy I'm going to try to blow up this section A little bit all right let me start um on the very far side of here here on the very far side this section of the cross-section is actually the raron river and then we come up to the embankment that comes up from the river and the toe path is in this location right here on the Eastern side of the canal the canal itself is located right here in this little lower dip and the red dotted line represents a line of sight from a pedestrian on the toe path looking toward our project uh so there are trees obviously on both sides sides of the canal in this location you saw the without leaves on them in the photograph and then the existing Wendy's which is on the Eastern side of eon Avenue is located here so your line of sight is sort of going over the roof of that Eon Avenue is in this section right here the roadway itself and then let me try to slide a little bit toward our project so remember the line of sight line is the red line here we have uh there's parking lot um basically in this section here between eastn Avenue and the and the new planting in front of our building then we have new Landscaping there and then we have our building which I mentioned was 46.75 ft uh to the top of the roof deck and if we keep going a little bit you sort of see the the dip in the back of the building and how the property Rises up toward the apartment project behind us so there's a fairly steep slope going up toward the uh residential apartment complex uh behind us so there is a dimension on this plan shown right here uh of 1,194 Ft from the center line of the toe path to the face of of the proposed residential building so we're over three football fields away from the toe path and we don't believe there's any significant uh impact to uh the DNR Canal or or the toe path views uh from the proposed project but I think it is helpful to see this in scale all the way through and I'm glad you asked for a drawing like this I think it was a a good request that that really is my testimony I'm happy to answer any additional questions you might have on the architecture so we had we' asked for a few of these sections in various locations this is the only one you have with you this is the only one I have yeah this I think tells the the the biggest story of of the resource of the uh canal and the toe path it does but it it lies just a little bit in that the section happens to be cut through the only portion of the site that has we'll say dense trees directly in front of the building um where if you were to cut it anywhere else you wouldn't have a collection of trees that close to the building in the elev in the uh section but we could get to that I'm just wanted to point that out um and then one of the other sections that we had requested would have been going uh north south on this page which would be East West and that would really have shown the gr difference between JFK and the building site so uh I think one of the photo renderings you produced showed that a little bit um so we could use that as a reference yeah it does um this this particular drawing right here there there is a significant grade change towards the back of the property to the front elevation of this building yeah you really at the back of the property here from the intersection of Marone Plaza you really only see two stories of the building of the new residential building whereas in this location on the far left you do see the full four stories uh in this location do you know what the the Delta is the the difference in height between the height of this building and the height of the existing facade of the Kmart building I don't uh our engineer might know the height of the existing building um ours is 46.75 Ft um do me a favor if if you're going to speak yeah take the mic because it it won't be picked up thank you uh yes I don't believe that the survey had picked up the height of the existing building so I do not have that information um is is there anything else here presentation but we can fire away questions yeah I mean the engineer may have some information do you want to you want to do him first and then the engineer them both no let let's hear the whole presentation including the engineering um and then we'll we'll Circle back with any questions I think that makes the most sense thank you Mr chairman good evening uh my name is Mike DCA uh I'm the project engineer on this particular project uh I've worked for menow engineering for the past 30 years uh for this particular design uh we were limited to the area in front of uh on the exhibit there in front of the former Kmart building uh under construction as you may know right now is the McDonald's UPF front um and the scope of our work was was limited to that back portion but what we did was we realigned the drive aisle coming in so once you uh once you get past that four-way intersection right where that cursor is we realigned that drive to line it up more so with the drive aisle in front of the Strip Center so it produces another four-way intersection at that area and realigns the entire site uh in a more functional manner um we also provided a decrease in impervious coverage so we provided more grass to the tune of approximately 1 and2 Acres so about 63,000 Square ft of a additional grass and Landscape areas from uh the existing site uh in addition to that we provided uh a number of various types of species of trees uh sugar Maples uh honey locust gum Oaks Elms uh in that area where the existing or where the proposed building is in different locations uh parking Islands around the perimeter along the residential sides where there is existing uh trees as of now we also supplemented with with additional plantings in those areas Evergreens and uh ornamental trees uh in front of the building we provided again more ornamental trees Evergreens uh and our our totals for uh Landscaping we providing approximately 137 deciduous and evergreen trees 44 flowering trees and 830 shrubs in addition to what already exists on the site um for the uh lighting design we adhered to current standards and provided uh dark sky compliant fixtures uh we are not allowing any spillage of uh foot can Les over the uh property lines to the uh residential property to the South and along JFK Boulevard what is lit is the uh intersection at eastn Avenue uh for safety purposes but there is no additional spillage other than what already exists along Eastern Avenue and you have the photo metrics to show that yes our plans include the photo metrics for that yeah the uh we provided a green space in front of the building there's a large uh Island area correct uh which is a uh Gathering area there is some seating areas gazebo that type of uh amenities for the for that area so it gives a kind of a gathering area for some uh outdoor areas and uh along the front of the building also we provided um a circular Drive area to provide uh drop off areas and also some additional Landscaping yes we did we we widened the uh walkway in front of the existing strip mall uh for potential outdoor seating areas and again it's another area for uh Gathering uh could be for benches and outdoor seating and and amenities like that is there a structured walkway to the food store as well yes there is a path a continuous path from the front of the building uh along that narrow Island correct right there that leads to the Stop and Shop okay no uh that's it if there's any questions I'm more than happy to answer uh yeah you mentioned that you had some Evergreens that you were pushing into the border around the perimeter I don't see those on the plan all I see is deciduous there are yeah there are deciduous trees I'm I'm sorry about that there are evergreens located within the building area we're supplementally planting with deciduous trees along the back um in front of what already exists there's a a tree line at the property line along the back and along johnf Kennedy Boulevard there's no Evergreens that you're installing in the perimeter to help block more of the view of the building no design does not show that right now got hit the button Anthony oh there we go now that we're talking about trees uh it showed that you have Holly trees there and I looked on the print and I couldn't find out where the Evergreen Holly trees are now you have a lot of trees planted but when the leaves fall everything is exposed and it only shows 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 n trees along the building side and then there's a gap between the building and trees on the corner and there's nothing alongside of I'm talking about JFK side and there's no trees you have circles there but I don't think they're trees to block the parking lot from JFK and I think instead of having trees I think you should have more evergreen trees and they should be planted at a zigzag at least 20 ft zigzag all along JFK to the end right we and not 4 foot tall at least 10 or 12 foot tall understood uh and I've seen this around many buildings Amazon buildings and on 27 and different areas do me a favor get closer to the mic or it won't pick up I'm sorry and I've seen this around other buildings uh warehouses and whatnot and they block them off with uh tall evergreen trees which is a blockade all year round not part-time right understood yeah we can uh definitely re review that in our office uh I can I can uh consult with my landscape expert and we can provide supplemental plantings uh as needed I think more evergreen trees and a longer row of them from the from the beginning to the back to block it off from JFK right so and correct me if I'm wrong uh the bottom leftand corner I believe is what you were referring to yeah yeah I think we're talking about that whole left side of JFK I think beefed up a little bit right there's a well there was a tree line there the reason there is no planting shown there is because there was a tree line there that the survey picked up so there are existing plantings within that whole area otherwise there's native trees there yeah this this shows proposed plantings and any place where there is existing vegetation it's shown as a tree line no I know what it looks like I've been there times the mic well I aren't the existing Dre trees depicted on your drawing as the empty circles the non diagrammatic ones not in every case in cases where it's a thicker foliage got we show it as a tree line yeah I can see the tree line written shown on here where it is I think that back corner is probably pretty hefty yeah uh you could see it more so in this picture right there so that back corner is fairly heavily there's there really isn't a lot of room to plant yeah I think I think where you can if you can if you can supplement some Evergreens into there that would be helpful but I also think as you get closer towards E Avenue it opens up more and even in that one area that one uh facade FL you had um from Marcone I believe you can see a lot more of the building from that view and that's a very important view I think for us in terms of um um screening the building you know with the height and everything absolutely and I think the applicant would be perfectly willing to you know beef that up work with the board in terms of what additional plannings what type of species where they want them well you had mentioned roughly an acre and a half given back to green a uh area correct and that's going to be planted grass is that just that Island section that's no that's currently at the corner overall in the entire Development Area that we're working in yeah so the the total number of uh the the total calculation of additional pervious coverage is about 63,000 Square F feet one of the things that um if you were to travel down East Avenue and look at some of the other similar developments uh whether they're um uh the Bristol which is an assisted living there's even a a cube smart Self Storage on the corner of Marone uh that came to us a year ago um and there's the um the the Grove one of the things that all of us have in in common is that they all have a pretty hefty wooded buffer directly in front of that building so um you know one of my questions is was there any thought given to extending that Island not even the same thickness but just a line of green across the front of the building um to to give a softer Edge to the front facade to all that surface parking Mr the chairman you're talking about in front of the Residential Building only correct even extending from the the new island and the drop off Circle so extend that across um so that there's a you know a softer Edge there um planted with Native species to help kind of break up um you know any impact of the view corridor from not just the canal um you know we're also looking at um the the remnant of the Marone site that um was where Marone Park is and across the street so I mean I I know most people drive down East Avenue and like why the hell is this historic but there's actually quite a bit of fabric there um that's more than the canal that we we're looking at yeah and I think that the applicant would be content to do that work with the board uh with the Professionals in the township and find you know what the right mix of trees and where you want them and and is there an overall reduction given the acre and a half is there an there's obviously an overall reduction in paved area um it's not really our purview but I want to ask the question on storm water management because of that are you thinking of rain Gardens or anything along those lines in any of these green spaces that could capture that what we did provide in the storm water design in two areas um and Dave if you could you could go to sheet nine uh what we provided in the uh let upper left corner of the building the north corner of the building and the South corner of the building we did provide uh two water quality devices um and this was a requirement from the drcc in order to meet their uh TSS removal rates so we did a calculation uh based on new pervious so uh 100% credit for new grass areas and a 50% credit for any place where there was new pavement or reconstructed pavement um and those areas were will be treated with a water quality device in two locations so with the with the additional um with the additional less it's like a double negative impervious um is any of that I no you you said a gazebo for example is any of that going to be slated for active or passive Recreation um you know with 200 units here there's going to be a demand for outdoor space H how do you foresee that being managed as part of this plan because it's it's not perfect not really clear what the intent is just in but you're just showing Green Space right most of the uh recreational areas are probably going to be limited to the Courtyard areas there's the pool and then there's the uh the corridor to the right would be uh Green Space sitting areas uh fire pits right so those areas are definitely slated for passive and active Recreation areas for the residents right for the residents but the space in front of the building as I recall from our informal planning board it was more of a kind of a community space right that's right so that the community it could be available for a concert uh you know uh whatever kind of the community event the municipality and or the management wanted to uh welcome there yeah and that's kind of where I'm leading with my questioning and I'm not trying to suppose that you're providing any additional public amenity but you are seeking at the end of the day a use variant so there should be some kind of contribution back to the public good on obtaining that variant so my curiosity is really you know how how can we activate that additional Green Space um and and at an acre and a half could we find more green space um and I know surface parking is your limiting factor because you're not doing a four a four over here right all the parking is outside the building um so just one of the considerations that that that I think we're thinking about to to beneficially screen the building as well as provide more of that green space I understand so just just in that LE is perfectly happy to work with the township and making that a publicly available space through your recreation department or whatever methodology the town would find appropriate yeah and that's not in our purview our my main concern is screening and right and and safeguarding and that's a different conversation yeah but just to your question in terms of making it available to the community it's there um and we would be happy to work with the community on how that best gets used okay great so I have have uh a comment about two things actually number Mike oh sorry it's not closer it's not closer because it's it's it's there um I had wanted to bring up two items number one being the parking okay and I was quite concerned you're going to have 200 people you have around 300 something 325 spaces or something like that and you know auto theft has gone up 25% in New Jersey okay uh those are the statistics uh from uh 2022 and having a lot of cars outside all night and probably nice cars sitting there is attracting I believe will attract crime and theft and I don't think uh the police of Somerset we it's not like we have an overabundance of police in Somerset and you wouldn't want to bring that into your neighborhood so that's something I feel really strong ly about having lived in an urban area in an exact situation because Eastern Avenue is a major thorough Fair going highs Carla I don't want to interrupt you but that that's really not the the perview of the historic commission yes it is architecturally I'm going to say I would like them to consider having in underground indoor parking and not 300 cars out in a parking lot to to address that situation cuz you really don't want to attract crime to that area excuse me for interrupting but just to close on that we will building management will have camera systems throughout the parking lot and people will know that it's going to be well surveilled throughout the evening hours and we need to do that to make you know women and children feel safe coming in and out of the building at later hours especially well we're more concerned about the appearance right in the historic district and with 350 cars approximately 350 cars out there and 150 cars on the average may be out there all the time this is what permanently parked this is what we're concerned about besides of the theft and uh and other things that may go on we would like to see the parking right under the building or as much as possible of the parking under the building to reduce the amount of cars out front or you definitely should put more Evergreens tall Evergreens around that block the cars so so that's that's the double-edged sword isn't it if you do more plantings and screenings you make it more secluded and more susceptible um that's right you're right but and your your your point about it being a visual impact is taken I mean you don't want this to look like a used car lot exact for example exactly so Mr chairman I just point out for the board's edification the reduction in the number of parking spots is 157 so from where it stands today to this proposal there's 157 fewer parking spots that there is one caveat to that which is by ordinance there's no overnight parking now right and once this is a residence you will have 150 to 200 cars in the parking lot overnight so I I your point is well taken and I understand that but there is that caveat that now there's an overnight element where there currently is not as a matter of fact in our area there as you know there's a tremendous amount of construction of apartment buildings um and all of the parking is you know inside or underground you do you do not see cars parked all over the place on these lots and there's a tremendous amount of construction going on now apartment buildings everywhere in New Jersey so you will not see you know hundreds of cars around it they're in they're inside or underground so I I really would love you to think seriously about transforming that and our police would be very thankful I'm sure also oh yes there was one other thing okay I I I I while the the the visual impact has to do with the board uh the the police has nothing at all to do and how much theft and in fact there's a bigger issue when they're in garages because those cars we've had we had issues on Hamilton Street with garages when they were first built because they're easily gotten into because to get into them there's typically a gate so be careful if you're talking about two different things if you're talking about visual impact yes but if you're talking about if you think they're going to be safer inside a garage that's just not true they're actually less safe when they're in a garage does it depend on the geography it it's because they're easily accessed and people can get in even with the the cameras stop some people but police typically will drive through the parking lot they don't drive because they don't have access unless they put their their sirens on and and people are more likely to leave their fob in a car in a garage and and that's really not for this board to discuss I I just wanted to to point that out that you probably don't want that there yeah I I think for us it's more about screening or um or hiding the visual impact than than the security nature that's really for for the TRC and and zoning and um and planning to deal with there is one other thing I wanted to bring up aesthetically and that is we want to create this new area to to attract people right for the Mixed use development and one one thing I would really love to see is that they have the whole Plaza paved I mean I have Sienna in my mind okay but anyway a plaza paved that would unite the residential areas the commercial areas um the McDonald's um and maybe we'd even have a cafe that would come to the area to BR you know for the for the new people who will now be in that area but unifying it visually to make it an attractive place for people to live work and play commissioner I think the scale of this would not make that possible really work the way you have in your your mind cuz you know we're talking about a really large swap the land it's it's more set up as a strip center it's it's it's walkable at the storefront but I I'm you know and some of the green area that they're they're providing may give that that feel but but not going to have um like a Piaza connecting the McDonald's to the Stop and Shop but Mr chairman I think one of the one of the things that may have gotten overlooked is is part of the plan here is to somewhat address what the commissioner is talking about in redoing the facade to make it a whole right so the re revision of the facade is going to coincide with the new building the sidewalk space in front of that retail area is going to be widened and as you saw there's a plan to uh reconfigure how those spaces are demised giving the possibility that there could be a cafe there could be a cafe with outdoor seating that and as was said the the goal here is to convert this more into a lifestyle type of Center because you're going to have 200 residents that are going to want to look for a place instead of cooking at home maybe they can grab a quick bite after dinner uh a place where Maybe they can go uh for a massage or maybe see uh a doctor or something like that so that this Center is going to be re reconfigured right to address some of those concerns not not entirely but you get the idea it's a somewhat dubious claim and we don't have to go down that road but when you're have you know store to adjacent surface parking it kind of eliminates that that that feeling you know you're you know you're conveying the idea of uh the like a mall right you know uh Division Street in Somerville or um you know Main Street in Kate May where you know this walking thoroughfare you're never really going to truly have that and I think that's what you're leaning towards and I think the scale of a site doesn't let itself to that but we're we're going to try to get into that direction obviously we can't yeah make something brand new out of it I understand and I think I think you're your your part way there with the Gazebo area in that green space kind of in the center there where you're kind of Bridging the Gap there I think that's a that's a good start to to kind of getting that that Vibe you're looking for but I think the site itself has constraints in terms of creating what you're talking about fully well I mean part part of the other thing is is that you know we have to be mindful of our existing tenants we have a Stop and Shop they have a parking requirement we're not at Liberty to just say hey we're changing your parking requirements so there are certain things that are baked in uh I mean one of the one of the goals in doing this is to continue the Vitality of the center because a company like any of the tenants there stop and shop or anybody else they want to be in a vibrant Center and so this preserves the economic Vitality of the center by redoing it by bringing in 200 customers for the store and for all of the other shops that are there one other thing one last you keep on saying 200 customers it's 200 units am I correct you're right okay times two at least okay correct lot of people yeah what one last thing I I wanted to bring up was um thinking about climate change for example um the kind of vegetation that you're putting in place you do you really have to start we we all have to start thinking of we don't want a lot of Lawns we prefer to have nice rock decorations instead of endless Lawns because of climate change and everything so is that something you you would be thinking about in terms of the decor you know around the buildings and everything else our design definitely has incorporated um a lot of supplemental plantings especially around the building there is not a lot of open lawn space around the building right it's mostly ornamental trees shade trees uh shrubs the only area we kind of left a little open would be that Gathering area and that's for the purpose of gathering right so we are not leaving a lot of lawn maintenance areas let's say yeah so our our design definitely incorporates that exactly what you're talking about right so this is kind of fallen in place with how I was thinking we were going to organize this meeting we've been talking a lot about site um there's other elements of this potential application so I'd like to get through site questions and then move on to the other elements which is the architecture of the proposed and and the other piece we're missing and I don't think this is a big deal is the demolition request of the existing structure so um does anybody else have site related questions or comments no I think we I think we hit that one pretty good um let's talk about the demolition of the existing since it is within a historic district uh it does have to go through the the requirements of uh demolition I say that kind of tongue and- cheek but we do have to talk about it for sake of consistency um does anybody have any questions or concerns about reserving this wonderful Kmart Box Store um or are we okay with granting the a partial demolition at the strip mall let us discuss I I didn't think anybody was to have a problem with it I I I mean it's more than 50 years old it's the new historic but um I I think in terms of demolition I don't think that there's much to talk about but uh for sake of sticking to uh you know being consistent how we deal with applications we have to bring it up um you know with that uh you we should we should turn towards the uh the architecture of the building um if you don't mind can you put up uh one of the photo renderings or or elevations so we can yeah that's perfect so we can start to talk about that a little bit um and and and I'll lead the the conversation um I I understand what you said about um you know Market liking this style I don't personally like this style as an architect I'm not a fan um I will point out and and I'm not leading a comment here I'm just pointing out that other developments of this style along E Avenue do not take this kind of post-modernistic form there's Gables there's mansard there's uh in in one case at the Bristol there's a rather large turret um kind of uh thing um and I just want to to lead the conversation with whether uh um everybody here feels that this is architecturally appropriate given what's existing or is it architecturally appropriate given that it's attached to the shopping center so that that's my leadin question um and uh I know that this is really at this point it's a recommendation to zoning right Vince so um as as as we get further into this and I'm sure you're going to have to come back for things we already talked about on site we'll get more into materiality I think you're hoping to leave here um with us saying in principle this is okay and we'll work out details later um but I think we should you know also think about the materiality of this um and and how that relates so those are just my opening uh opening thoughts on it anybody have any comments or questions please feel free uh yeah I have one here I have many but uh the building it's a nice building but I don't think it conforms with the area it's not historical there's no historic appearance to the facade or the area we're a historic commission here we're trying to protect the historic byway and other places around the area and uh I personally I don't think this building with the appearance that it has is going to fit in the historic district I have a lot of ideas about it how to revise the building I mean uh I've been around a lot of buildings myself over the past 55 years I'm a builder in heavy construction so my opinion to this is that I think you ought to go back to the drawing board even though I'm brunt about it I think you ought to go back to the drawing board and make it look more historic for instance Styles and rails in the windows little bigger brick molding panels underneath the windows maybe with the panels under the windows you have a brick veneer there or stone veneer the color I think the color it just don't fit with the area uh I could go on and on and on and you know you you know what I'm talking about out and you got my point do so so so Anthony the the the counter question I have to that is um creating the faux sense of history and this isn't really the right place to create a faux sense of History um that's not to say elements that you're suggesting could not be incorporated in some way but it it may be that mold windows are not appropriate but I guess the point is that the the character of this in your opinion is is more modern than what the surrounding is contemporary very contemporary I'd like to suggest actually before you go back to your drawing boards that you do a little sightseeing in the area and so for example and I actually did myself to take a look and you know I live in the area and and um there's an off of Eastern Avenue in deont Lane there's a development called The Grove for example and um I the architecture and I believe they came actually and they have a lot of architectural elements that it's it's modern but yet it's very earthy they use a lot of stone wood it's it's it Blends in with nature um so it's not this bow house list like I know it's not bow B house post postmodern artificial look it's it's more natural I wrote Carla a very long missive on what bow house is so this is not it truth and materials I learned about that right but um and then there's um when you go to boundbrook when you go to through South Bound Brook and you make a right on the way to middlex right on the corner there it's called the Meridia and they've been building a lot actually in New Jersey you could even look it all up and you know very classy buildings you know modern very modern but the use of design and material is very striking it's it's architecturally it's very very very interesting and very very nice so it would kind of be midway from this to let's say the Grove so it would be worth your while just you know look it up and take a look let's see it has a lot of nice elements to it I'm not I'm I'm I'm guess I'm I'm kind of missing the point here because this is a shopping center it's an existing shopping Center and whether and whether let me let me finish whether it's this design or another design you're you're not meant to recreate history and to have a brick building or something like what you're looking at is does it have a negative impact on the viewshed so you're not looking whether you like this particular style of architecture I I think the secretary interior doesn't talk about that it talks about the visual impact that it's going to have whether it's made out of this material or another material we're we're not here to tell them how to design their building if if this was in the middle of griggstown or South Middle Bush that would be a difference this is on a a a County Highway where uh across the across the street there's a McDonald's and it's located in the back of so telling them that this design does they should change to something I I I don't think that's that's supported by by anything that the secretary interior the visual impact yes if you think that you know they had a maned roof and it should be a flat roof or something else because you can see that from the thing but we're really not here to tell them their architectural style I think I think that's I think it's actually inappropriate to do that well I I actually disagree just a little Vince um I I agree with you that the the site is not necessarily of a historic nature and we're not trying to create a faux sense of history but I think the comments are relative in that the consistency we've had with other applicants and just for example the you want to get that Bob roll TV here um for sake of consistency even the cube smart Self Storage that's right around the corner um you know it's a self storage building but you know you know 10 years ago we asked them to put you know variations in the roof the in the Spanish tile and then the whole nine yards and and I'm not not necessarily saying it's 100% what this applicant should do I'm just saying that the comments do have um a precedent in how we've seen previous applications so I don't think we're telling them how to design I think that the comment is is that there's elements in other similar facilities that have been built that maybe they could consider um and I think at the end of the day we're leaving here possibly with a recommendation to the zoning board that this is an okay um again this is this is a a an okay request for a change of use but there's details to be ironed out and I think that's where they're leading yeah I I I was really worried about saying go back to the drawing board there's a little bit difference about maybe taking a look at some elements and everything else AG tell to go back to the drawing board is that's not a right and I think I think facade elements and treatments are different than wholesale design change and I think not to put words into Anthony's mouth but I think that's what he was alluding to was uh facade treatment and Design Elements yeah Mr chairman I think the one point that I would like to make is and we certainly appreciate and we'll take into consideration uh how we can address the suggestions that have been made but while we are taking down the Kmart and proposing a new building and redoing the facade on the retail strip uh there's also a Stop and Shop that's not going to change there's a McDonald's that's not going to change there's a bank building that's not going to change and so the challenge in uh what what Dave put together is melding this new building with the existing strip with the other pieces that aren't going to change and trying to find kind of a middle ground where it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb that's right and so that's that's what you see here but obviously there are suggestions that our architect will take back and will discuss and uh look at what can be done yeah and and I think um I think the Bristol assisted living is another good example I mean it sits right behind a quick check but there were elements introduced in that facade treatment that that I guess soften the impact of the building visually I and I think that's where is that where you're leading Anthony I'm not trying to put words in M I'm interpreting I think blending in we understand that and we we promise to take that back and see how we can modify this okay any other questions or comments on on quick uh question um you just touched on something there that uh I wasn't sure of but you're redoing the strip mall part but the Stop and Shop and the bank or they're all that's that whole property is 11 property right yes and you're not going to kind of uh dress them up or kind of mediate them so they match the other buildings at all so there's different agreements that apply to the Stop and Shop to the bank and and obviously McDonald's just got their approval and so that's a brand new building and so those things will be treated differently so we're going to the ones that we have the most direct control over is the Kmart and that strip that goes along side that came that way the whole Plaza kind of Blends together the other thing it doesn't have anything to do with this board uh probably Planning and Zoning but uh something I see here so you're taking a commercial space and we're switching it over to a residential space um you got 200 Apartments 400 people husband and wife children I don't see any areas for activities play playing open space uh all these kids um in that area so just something to consider maybe a some sort of a play area well I think you know there's there it's always a double-edged sword right uh this is this is not designed this is designed to be an active adult uh you know people moving into the area looking for their first place to live people in the area looking to downsize uh maybe people transient working at a company for a while need a place to live this is not designed to you know let's make it a a kid-friendly uh let's create a playground and a Tot Lot and all so it's not there uh it's got a pool it's got passive Recreation it's got grills and and that's the kind of recreation that is proposed for this so that it really potentially is 400 adults living there maybe there'll be some small cohort uh of young children in it but we believe it's going to be very minor you're going to have 20 recers kids in each of these rooms in these in these types of projects especially the elevator serve buildings you get very few children people may a young couple may move in here and get pregnant and have a baby but they won't stay very long uh in in an apartment like this elevator served as the kid becomes a toddler and Beyond it's just it's it's been proven we've looked at projects that are walk up versus elevator buildings and it's a totally different ball game yeah if you if you look at the the the rer study and you look at other apartment complexes in the town the when they design them like this and at the level that they're going to charge the amount of kids is is the Minimus it really is and and it's really a double-edged so when we've had other ones come to the border the the Border always asked are you going to have any areas for children it's always well no because we don't expect I we don't want to encourage it either so well it's not like you said it's really not the board's purview but it's a good question because it's you're talking about an outside amenity so it's really not the question is whether it should be something appropriate for the outside so you g given market trends and housing costs people will stay here a little bit longer I'm sure any other uh questions or or comments on the overall facade so we've covered site plan we've covered just just make it a little softer somehow I I uh and and David I know your firm pumps these things out this is what you're known for is doing these multi family so you know exactly what we're talking about um okay um uh I I think that that's uh we k all the high points unless anybody else has any other comments or questions uh we'll open it up to to public discussion um before we make a a motion on a recommendation um which which I've been slowly drafting in the background so I'll read it out when we're done uh and we can make a motion on it um with that um I think we're good so uh with that does anybody want to make a motion make a motion open to the public thank you Bob we have a motion to open I'll second uh I'm going to second with the caveat that any public comments uh should be aware that the this board is really only focusing on proposed uh not focused on the change of use of the property we're not focused on traffic or impact we're not focused on utilities or storm water management purely uh visual um and and impacts to Historic districts with that does anybody from the public want to come forward for questions or comments for the applicant nobody's coming forward that's a good thing okay I'll make a motion to close we got a motion to close I'll second the motion to close so um I've been drafting in the the background as we've been talking um in general terms what the recommendation to the uh zoning board will be uh Vince their meeting is tomorrow night Thursday Thursday tomorrow is onx Thursday okay I there's lot going on um that's planning tomorrow planning tomorrow zoning okay uh so so generally um from the conversation I've I've heard tonight um and anybody can amend this motion as they see fit um I'm seeing that the uh for General criteria um we're identifying that we're not um making any action or comment on Prop proposed change of use traffic impact utilities uh or storm water anything that does not have a visual impact to the canal uh in terms of demolition the a hpac will not take any um uh any exception to that we don't care if it gets demolished um in terms of site considerations um and and these are um the way I wrote them is is more or less uh not prescriptive but things for the applicant to think about and for the zoning to hear about um uh and these are just comments that I've written down from tonight uh additional parking uh may be uh provided in a in a garage or underneath to reduce surface parking uh Green Space to be planted with Native species including deciduous and Conifer varieties um the decorative plantings uh and foundation planting seem to be uh generally appropriate right um the uh Green Space could be active or passive record ation um the um and the applicant should review um the idea of a wooded buffer in front of the building uh like the no for example the the neighboring Grove Street um The Grove at Somerset development that we talked about a couple times so that's what I have for the site uh in terms of the the building um uh the hpac has recommended that the applicant uh um take a look at uh existing case studies such as the Grove at Somerset we don't mentioned the Bristol uh the meridian and Bound Brook and the cubes SM just as examples that soften the architecture to the historic uh District um and the way that they break down um the the scale of their buildings and then in terms of architectural Techni techniques we discussed and again these are not prescriptive these are just conversation points from tonight that that we talked about um you know sloped roof mansards Gable ends uh Dormers were brought up make variations in Building height introduce variations in the facade uh and and there was just one little comment on on color palet maybe um maybe more neutral but that that um could be related to whatever you guys are doing the tie into the other buildings so I I I think that's the general comments from um this board um I think as you progress and put a finer tip on the design elements we'll be seeing you again uh but I think in general that's going to be our recommendation of zoning um does that jive with everybody is there any additions changes the only thing that you might have been missing was the um beefing up the Landscaping along JFK okay more specifically thank you uh beefing up the is that a technical term beefing up yeah it is beefing um we'll add that uh to the P scre up it's in there now Hey where's the beef there you go Wendy's is across the street uh so beef up uh the screening uh and and that was inclusive of uh both deciduous and Conifer right yeah I think a mix is is appropriate cuz I think I think the point is is that you really only have leaves on trees four to five months out of a year right everybody shows beautiful trees but mostly we see dead dormant trees uh I I think that that's the general uh tenure of tonight's meeting um so with that I'm going to move to uh make that emotion as as I kind of spewed that out I don't like to make motions uh as the chair but I think since I wrote it out I'll do that tonight um if anybody wants to make any amendments or a second uh please let me know I'll second it we got a motion and we have a second um from Dominic stanion um with that uh all in favor I I any opposed no oppos so that will be the recommendation the zoning um I would appreciate Andrew if you could get that to me tomorrow so I can get it to the the applicant I'm going to send that to you Thursday evening at 5:45 just so that you know we get the the verbiage and everything correct so if there's any he takes great notes I know he does but we we want to make sure we I don't want to have an issue with the zoning board where we're disagreeing on on on a word no I got it pretty well written out here so so thank you for your patience we had to get through that we we try to be as consistent with every application as we can be um that's why I brought out demolition even though I knew it wasn't going to be a problem um so good luck and we look for forward to seeing the next round Mr chairman members of the board thank you very much great thank you uh moving on with our agenda for this evening uh you guys are welcome to stay or you could leave um we kept tonight's agenda pretty light considering um we knew that we were going to have a big review action uh is there any um public discuss oh this is out of order on the agenda so but uh I'll call it any any public disc discussion from the group outside of this application on anything uh Franklin no nobody coming forward uh and incoming correspondents uh we did get a section 106 review come in today uh I have not yet fully reviewed it because I Was preparing for this uh I will forward the section 106 to everybody for their review uh tomorrow it's basically um it's for uh Sam or or cell towers right Vince yes it's for cell towers I think along Cotton Tail uh but I'll send that out um reports any new bu uh anything from open space Bob open space did not have a meeting last month can you uh provide any update uh from open space on the done hearing that's coming up that is tomorrow I believe here and there really is just nothing it's going to be open to the public for discussion okay good um any um so uh in terms of old business there's a couple things that are still uh ruing in the background for us I want everybody to continue to think about changes to the bylaws and ordinance um uh we're basically tabling all of that conversation till the next meeting um so the next meeting we we we'll put a pin in that and hopefully uh start putting together the final draft of what we want to do on that um I don't have any new business the new business is the next agenda Point anybody else have anything new they want to bring forward no no new business um our next meeting is scheduled for May 7th um there's a couple matters that we have pushed off um so we'll we'll be seeing them then um there's only one other thing that I would like to to do is which is the uh minor application subcommittee we formed in the last meeting uh I'd like to extend that minor application subcommittee appointment until the next meeting so everybody gets an extra month since uh we had this uh I guess we have to make a motion on that right to extend the subcommittee you can just do it all right then I'm waving the magic arm and saying we going to extend you have the ability to to appoint people you took volunteers the one thing I'll mention is that I got a phone call from everybody knows Mike sasman remember he's been before this board a couple times uh he called me this afternoon to say he purchased the house uh and that there is the roof is leaking and I called him back to I don't even know where it is cuz he didn't leave that as soon as I find out Andrew I will contact you so that we can you can go out and see if it is an emergency I don't know it was just a message hey Vince call me back without an address so if I had known the address I would have actually driven out to look at it and taken some pictures so as soon as I know hopefully tomorrow I'll let you know and then you do what you do with the the minor all right yeah and and I have one question um in June are we did we change the date on June because of the primary on the sixth the 5th on that Tuesday I don't remember we have a different date in June I'm I don't think so no okay I don't remember well we could look at that and then report back at the next meeting if we have to move it we we have time yeah we but good to know June yeah that's the next T that's the the the uh primary will be that Tuesday I think June 5th so we have our main meeting and then if we have to move it we'll move June um I I do want to give just a very brief uh report since I brought up the minor applications uh subcommittee uh a group of us did meet at the old two room Schoolhouse in uh East Millstone uh including myself Carla uh Bill no you weren't there who was there Bill Glenn was there I was there um and we uh oh and Jess Jess was there uh and we did look at um their request for uh a new roof on that building um they've let that building go significantly from the last time we saw it um but uh basically we we did not approve a temporary roof at that time we told them that they had to get more materials together uh mostly because they let the building go so long that we could actually see that there's a cedar roof um a historic Cedar roof on the building that was underneath the layers of asphalt so um they have to pull together some material and let us know what they're going to do I I actually have that some stuff I don't he dropped it off and I do have to give that to you after the meeting so that's going to happen um so that that's the short report so we did not take action on it other than to give uh ask them for additional um that that's all I have uh I think I've said it four times next meeting May 7th uh and with that I have nothing else and I'm ready to adjourn motion to adjourn and uh no no second needed but I'll second it okay there you go we're done thank you