##VIDEO ID:zrxId8naa4g## all right good evening everybody we're a couple minutes behind but we'll get started uh welcome to the regularly scheduled August meeting of the Frankl Township dist preservation advisory commission this meeting has been uh properly noticed in coordinance with the open public meeting act 1975 uh this meeting will be recorded for rebroadcast on the Township's YouTube channel uh and with that I call the meeting order uh I will start with uh attendance uh around the table we'll start with Bob Lort here uh Nancy honstein here myself Andrew buan Dominic stanion here Anthony ganam here and Patrick Shala here so we do have a full Quorum uh with our staff person Vince Dominic uh we have a few things to get through tonight so let's get right to it um 62 Laurel a fence replacement come on I do sit down we're 4 million to a historic meeting before my first so tell us a little bit about your house and your project so the fence that was there when we bought the house last year is falling down so the neighbors want us to replace it apparently it was cut up by somebody in that house before us but it's a 7ft tall fence so your fence recommended a 6ft tall fence so it's exactly the same except for one foot shorter and it's just a replacement and it's going in the same exact spot it looks exactly the same I think it's going exactly on the property line and in the same exact spot and it looks exactly the same only new so uh I'm sorry I should have started with this what what is your name just for the record thank you so so in the um photos you submitted this is the existing fence I'm assuming yes yeah and then two two uh sides there's two sides of that back and the front and that's a 7t fence and then this is what you want to replace it with this stock here so it's the same exact sty that's just the one side it's the I think it's the side in the back but I could be on the survey chain fence on one side and wood fence on the other side and the back has half a p so like this is wood fence here and that is what s that's yes exactly what is there and then the chain link is okay this PR anybody have any questions no um any any conversation on this before we open to the public uh seeing no additional uh questions or comments from the commission is anybody from the public want to make any comment on this application nobody's coming forward so does anybody want to make a motion I'll make a motion to Res that so court is the motion is to accept that submitted second and second is sh all in favor I any opposed that was easy thank you so now what do I do next the have you have you submitted for your zoning permit yeah I did that this for this and and I will tell them tomorrow so you're approve you can install it whenever you want oh and thank you for being very easy that was super easy great okay thank you byebye great thank you next application for this evening is four1 Street anybody hear from 41 Street the my long lost Mr it's been a while sir how you doing for the record Peter lford appearing on behalf of Mr rossac who is the property owner uh very briefly uh we have a pending application before the planning board tomorrow night subdivide uh the property in question there's an existing house on the property we're going to be proposing to build the new house uh Mr rossback lives there with his wife and three kids he's going to build a new house for himself and then either sell or rent the existing house uh the house itself is located 725 ft from can now uh it is not visible the proposed house is not visible from East Avenue let alone the canal uh there are two houses uh on First Street prior to reaching this property uh if you look up Maxwell Street which is across the way uh again is it is not visible from Maxwell Street so uh we can describe the house and everything but as far as an impact on the canal this is the documents where missing right yeah yeah all right you don't have a copy with you do you what what do you need everything Vince lost it uh here is here is a set of subdivision plan um which and I got I have another one so I can pass I think I have another one so is this subdivision um is it subject to any variances or any other requirements or straightforward uh well there there are two variances the the lot is 16 the New Lots are 16,000 Square ft each which is the prevalent lot size in that area uh and the property has a pipeline uh going through it so the house will be uh less than 100 ft from the pipeline so that requires a variance uh surve that's just the pl plan is there a is there a location plan p in this package that shows in relationship to the now or it's just a general plan if you look at the first page um we have EA Avenue between this let me walk over there yeah this is basically East Avenue this is the property there's houses right in here uh and so um I'm going to say something bold but I want to look it up in Google Maps first okay where's the uh pipeliner CL the pipeline as you see runs right through the property on this side and the proposed subdivision um oh I see okay yeah the existing house the new house so we're here right that's pretty much where it is yeah this is E Avenue Y and then this is Rucker prep over here yes and there's some houses over here uh Ruckers prep yeah down here right well Ruckers prep owns these houses over right they own these houses yeah um and this is a little bit up on the bluff right Y and there's absolutely zero visual impact from the canal or you have the corridor yeah right so we're up right there you can't see so um I'm going to say something that I've never said before but I don't think we need to look at it no it it it falls within the district but east Avenue is a funny animal for us cuz we draw a very straight line all the way across that all encompassing from the canal but um this to me has no impact on any of the historic resources um but that's up to discussion that's just my I would agree I agree absolutely how about the house that's on the property anything or is just regular house it's a regular a regular Ranch 1958 60 I know there was a big one in there that area by definition so so since the the property subdivision is not they have the variances that that Mr lford described but there's nothing that's going to impact potentially saving the house so um if this was a normal application we would have to parse this out for a demolition request then a subdivision request and then a new construction request but my determination basing on where it's located is it's outside of our you know resources that I can start with Y I agree agree yeah 100% so the Apple gets to p PE some uh legal fees for tonight and you get to go home um so I I would say on this um recommendation yeah is this a recommendation of zoning yes uh so so the recommendation for planning would be that uh we take um no action on this application all everybody agree with that yep y anybody have any any public have any questions or comments on this application this one's like rapid fire it's good no all right um uh anybody want to make a motion as such I will since I'm going to see it tomorrow night actually I'm not sure that he should no he's he can he's wearing the different hat he'll tell you you wear sep for hats you can all right so we have a motion the court do I have a second second Pat you're on fire tonight and then um the note on this one is that uh hpac takes no action on this application I'm going to send an email to Mark so that as we're sitting so I can't change my mind so I don't forget tomorrow see what I came up with pretty nice awesome easy peasy thank you okay thank you are you staying for another one y wow all right um next application is uh 2414 milstone Valley pres milstone Valley Fire Department uh located at [Music] um 2365 Amo Road this one will not be as easy um how you doing Pete lred again appearing on behalf of the most fire district Department uh this is an application to construct a PO barn on the property to the right side of the property as you are facing it furthest away from the canal uh the pole barn is necessitated uh as a result of some recent uh I guess issues in the canal where now this fire company needs to store equipment uh basically to for life safety issues uh in case there are problems in the canal which they've had to under take rescues over the past few years uh Mitch has prepared the plans we have the architectural renderings uh this project is being solely funded by the fire company who has to take a mortgage to to build this building uh nich has already been to the Delaware Canal commission has reviewed this project and has recommended approval of it subject to Franklin countship and County approval which we do not yet have I can have Mitch now explaining Pro yeah Canal commission will come to us since we're certified local government so um their blessing is nice but doesn't mean anything say anything so it's the 2 acre property the existing uh Firehouse I have an aerial here as well is there a um yeah there was well there is one we submitted that that's not re gr logo underneath there thank you take two the and if you want to pass around this is the exhibit that we did uh even though you guys have your review obviously for the enr fal commission that shows a picture of the uh existing building um so basically it's a 2 acre lot and you're facing it on the uh the parking lot is on on the left side or the west side and it wraps around to the back and behind the building uh the driveway basically you access the doors for the emergency vehicles Straight Ahead off the road um there's County property around it to the north and east and the industrial and you can really see in the aerial that's big old Bel industrial property is between us and the canal so again visibility of the canal is cut off by that building surrounding you do have the older single family houses across the street and the C churches across the street and propos which should be on next yeah that's it so basically a pole born type building 2884 feet and for yeah on nights like tonight the it's for rescue boat and other equipment and um that's what proposed as I said we were at submitted to the planning board Canal commission looked at it from from their jurisdiction about 300 ft the canal okay uh the colors we we went back and forth two things with the canal commission a lot of drainage we worked that out with them the second where they had questions on the colors also again you know we we have some historic and Architects on this committee uh we have plenty of reps from the fire from the rescue company here fire department they can you know chime in also uh but these are the the choice at this time for the colors on the addition um versus what's on the existing did you uh in the site plan um process did you consider any other locations on a site for this building I understand the need for proximity directly to am road yeah but um I mean I'm going to be very blunt it's not an appropriate building um and I'm wondering if site plan could have hit it better um it's a pre-fabricated metal building it is what it is um but you know you have a kind of a classic firehouse and then you have you know a small Warehouse building next to it so I mean which did you look at other safe plan options Yeah so basically in the on the back side that's that's in the back corner there there is a when you pull out all the blood Hazard lines and the D now setback lines that's kind of that that back section and and and these guys can talk for appropriate as for they need to get rescue they need to get out you know that's that's a priority on this site we even looked at one point about putting it behind the other and put pulling it through right and it's just functionality wise there's a great change there it doesn't look like it but when you look at the slopes there a couple feet drop off here um is it is it a significant cost difference doing this prefabricated building versus doing some kind of addition that's more sympathetic to six seven times more money you're into it what about just doing the facade of this differently so that it bu them better with there we the rest the building we looked in doing theat it is possible it is a great cost change to us and being a volunteer organization we do get some money from the town but we are saving our own money and raising money to build building for the town to Life Safety out of our own Pockets yeah but believe me we're very sympathetic to that um that's what makes these kind of applications challenging because it's a Sho string budget but such a a benefit for the community it's it's in arguable um and you know we know what you're doing we know you what you want to do um which is tough if we change the colors to meet more of a barn color to match the area I know there's a Red Barn up the road we turn to red and white to make it more visually as you pass look like a barn next to the Firehouse than a metal building would that be more suitable in your eyes to make it a little more EAS the barn up the street would be the metler barn the horse for this looks like you go and get your oil changed yeah well I mean yeah it but it is it's a vehicle B I mean that's what it is right match the firee oh I know kind of Ricky reddish varnish I mean and the other problem is it if if you did do it let's just argument sake you make it another uh very large Gable fronted brick on the bottom building right next to it then they're like kind of at a scale to each other then they're competing in a different way yeah I almost like to see it like a board bat and kind of a facade I mean it basically is it's where different color would be and they have help that was an attempt we we did talk about several of those let me see I mean there are you're looking at thisas so I I just different doors I do want to go back to one of the leading things that you said as part of your presentation that it's not visible from the canal it's not all about the canal it's also about East milstone and protecting the character of East Millstone as I understand yeah we do and that's why I did mention there houses across the street the Cal Church the main piece of that right there right have to peel her up the ceiling as far as colors this is the the company um I don't have a a board but the the red is is pretty bright red um there is yeah there is the Everlasting that one which isn't quite as red what color is this is is this that blue or that is SL gray and charcoal we chose those colors Because the actual surrounding of the building besides the bre H in the front is gray final side again gray painted uh concrete block down the one side so we tried to make it blend in with that so it wouldn't be such an eye sort as you saw going down the road these kind of buildings actually when you make them darker they stand out even more almost them could be white just they them go away right you can see this from your bedroom window what do you think um yeah I kind of echo what you guys say it's a little I I'm actually even curious Mitch did you guys even look at sliding this back in relationship because because you're holding this croud line to the front of the existing Firehouse if you pulled it back so it felt more like an accessory building and spin it around so the doors are I that's actually not a bad idea I me even if you did the the doors this way yeah there's no turning room to get access coming out even if you brought that that prop side back you bring it back 15 so I'm just looking where the drop off is there but it's not cuz you're I guess you're doing underground storm water detection yeah and you got one Outlet over here correct it would be back where the slope is more on the parking lot this would just be in the lawn area pulling back the lawn still what what if it was what if it was the the storm water system was in the front um and then this was pushed back you could do those under pavement we believe me we looked at that storm water 12 different ways and worked with the canal commission it's just with the bad soils here and their restrictions on here could it go back I mean we can we can look at that there's some slope um the issue was is is the approach on and off of the pad if we flipped it around one out the back we would not be able to make the swing with the apparatus off the front gives us the ability to back in and off the pad without changing the entrance onto EML road which is a major ont this keeps this keeps the original pad of what's existing there and just adding on a side bump out which then doesn't uh disturb traffic or anything on the roadway for the county and you're putting you're putting your boat the boats in here boat the AR are are side by sides our drones our uh support Vehicles there's a lot of things that have that we need to get into that building cuz right now our Firehouse is overloaded and there's Alleyways to walk around things and this has been an ongoing thing and um like Mitch was saying deing with the canal commission we went back and forth with the train systems multiple times and at one point they said we couldn't do it and they work together and I guess said 12 times give better angle right if you also look at the drawing there is a giant Christmas tree in front that's going to block that building and Mitch and I were just talking I think the other thing there is a little room in front that we can put additional Landscaping they put small awning windows across the top and maybe paint the batons another color would that look too busy it I think it would I I think you want this thing to disappear I don't think you want to call attention to it seen one of these barns on South Middle Bush Road that was red and that's where that uh church is going up or that Temple where that that old house burnt down on South Middle Road right by SN used to be yeah there used to be a Red Barn there and it was a metal Barn no it was a Dutch Barn it was a wood bar there was two barns there it was a wood barn in the back and then there was a metal barn and they sold both of them they dismantled them so maybe if they have Windows in there uh and do painted some type of a red or rust color they said it looks like a warehouse it's it's just too engag a big huge driveway now 51 and another 51 like a landing this is not this right this is this is just a sample so would be what yeah yeah is there flexibility to match ERS yeah are are those doors are identical to what we have now oh you got the double windows that that's yeah we can do the double window yes and what about color on the doors are you doing white doors are you doing gray doors white doors it's going to match exactly what the do this drawing is from the um P company when the doors are going to match exactly what's there okay if you did dou double windows you have on here yeah they do have windows together too and this building that we are um trying to build is actually the same height as this there's no difference it's not going Tock over it it's not going to be lower it's look identical in the front um this is B days this do9 like that this would be shorter than the propos is actually [Music] 23 um what I was just saying over there is if the building could be pushed back and disengages the front elevation yeah and and hear me out on this I I know it's money and and I'm sorry to say it but what if you can write a check what if we what if we took this this in itself I heard that I'm not a lawyer though um this this is a very utilitarian box building to begin with and it's got RI on one face what if they did the same kind of veneer to the same point just to the bottom side of the game yeah yeah push it back do the brick veneer on the on one face do the rest of it as you know white or offwhite metal I think it would be somewhat okay I I know that's adding pause but can I ask a question on this now you're saying offwhite or white the front of the firehouse top is gray that's slate gray yeah match that so we put okay back and see what the cost is I don't know it adds a lot I know that that's why we went with what we it's not a lot of square footage though I I understand it add cost but when I mean when you take the fact that you got your openings right you got your two B openings we're just saying to surround around the doors to that line just like this is if you're saying that you're the same height the same as that you're probably looking I'm sorry yeah something one those like this right just talking about that's it it could even be a synthetic brick at that point um whatever is more affordable this can all be Bri here what happens if they have the same say say the upper fa two to match to match one is vertical one is horizontal yeah with that same little uh vent up on the top that'll blend it right in of the little round yeah window or whatever it is I don't even know if it needs that but you're right it blend it in it'll help for the appearance in the uh I we're notri we're trying to be sympathetic to the cost we just got to make it yeah so I guess we're trying to balance speak for you guys so there's a cost shoving it back and there's a cost with the brick and all I get what's the cost of shoving it back with the grade change and deal with the drainage the drainage was just very difficult it back like 30 ft even with that we have a we we threaded the needle on this um like our drainage friends at dear can now but some of these small sites there there's just almost no way to do it we're just in a fox actually going to count the poorest papers as impervious it count it counts as impervious but we get credit for the Dr I've had that fight with them before yeah most don't care so what is everybody else thinking hey counsilman sorry I was coming off from I think you'll be veneer like you said and the Gable in match the uh Firehouse we the entrance to East Millstone we do and this is totally ugly um so um I guess where do you want to go with this do you to vote on it or do you want to make revisions we we don't know well I I think you should vote on it and the reason I say that is we don't know whether what you're asking us to do is financially viable and you know I hate to say because we always try to work with with you but if it gets to the point where it doesn't make economic sense for us we're just going to go to the planning board ask for the approval not withstanding the fact that you made recommendations that we can't live with and we'll explain it to the planning board uh if if on the other hand will this go to planning yeah is what we're doing a recommendation on the other hand if they go back and think they can achieve some of the things you requested we'll do it but well I I think you're saying um well what I'm hearing from you is well vote on it cuz if we don't let the answer screw you we're going to go it's not SC and what I'm saying is do you want to take an opportunity to look at what the revision costs are if there are any and come back I I could do that and if if if the costs are prohibitive I I'm not going to come back I'll just tell you you're prohibitive and you're going to vote do what you need to do again I I we respect your your position uh but we have a hearing we don't have a hearing yet the application has beened so so then then then that's good because then you can spend the month figuring it out that's the best thing to do spend the next couple weeks figuring out what you do and tell us whether you're going to come back or you want us to vote at the next meeting make theend I don't know how long it will take them however long it takes it doesn't matter we meet we got a little bit of time but again we going to be that much more just a little veneer here here here I mean I'm really talking and honestly after you put the veneer on you might not even have to slide the building well that that was the question I had is you know you're you're asking us to slide the building back which is an expense plus put the veneer on which is an expense uh I've also been talking to Mitch while you guys were talking I think there's an opportunity to landscape the front of the property uh in front of that building that that will that will also help block the building off uh so we don't like to fully I appreciate that but we don't like to rely on Landscaping as our solution to things cuz deer eat it it dies nobody maintains it I'm not saying that that's going to be the case but that constantly happens let let us look at it and then we can either report back through Vince and say we could do the facade we can't move the building back or we could do everything uh but and I just wanted to say like you were here before and it was an East Avenue um perview because th000 ft of the canal East Millstone it doesn't matter how it's East Millstone that we're represen we're not representing the canal I I understand that and and we understand that and and again if if this was a commercial developer with Deep Pockets we we wouldn't be having this discussion uh but unfortunately these gentlemen work hard to raise the money to to to build this building they have to mortgage the property they don't have funds we're very sympathetic understand we also have to we have other people to answer to them well I I agree with you and uh so let let us talk a little bit uh why don't you carry it till next month and if we're not ready next month I'll tell eventually carry you haven't made the application to the board yet it's the time frame is is cu you're not going to get to the board for several months so take as much time actually going to go in perfect okay thank so just to clarify something this is the fire district right but you individually own the property the fire district leases the building from the fire department mstone Valley Fire Department owns the property maintains the property and keep the property up so the C does not own or maintain the building no it's all within your the the district rents the building for the apparatus we raise money we been raising money for years to put this addition on so the apparatus I'm just curious the apparatus belong to the township but you yes got it oh man you brought us a hard man yeah and and and again we understand your concerns uh we don't take them lightly uh and it's a balancing act so we're going to go back and look at it even even look at the possibility of synthetic Bri or some kind of veneer that mimics that it doesn't have to be true masonry I know there's I know there's affordable options and I'm saying affordable but it still adds cost and I understand that thanks Pete okay thank you we we do appreciate your input you know we're not being seral all right thank you so we're going to table this till the next meeting when the applicant comes back probably exhibit no we will money to reproduce absolutely all right thanks thank care now have a have a good night guys you got 2418 Kingston Presbyterian Church are you here yes we are awesome are you going to start with being a nonprofit organization it's a true statement I know good evening and and who are you gentlemen so I'm Brad Clifton I'm the treasurer at the Kingston Presbyterian church member there probably over 35 years almost 40 years and I'm Thomas Lee I'm an architect from belme New Jersey all right so tell a little bit about your project okay um the members came to me and they had some issues with the back entrance of the church and what's happened with a lot of of these older churches well the people used to walk down the street and they went in the front door well now that's not what happens there's a very large parking lot in the back and um that's where the people come in a lot of them are driven up to the back entrance they're let out and then they can go in there were some unusual things that took place when this rear Edition was done that was in 1955 and when I looked at the original drawings the building the actual addition was up and when they built it they put it down so the floors would align oh in the basement so they did an entrance on the outside where you step down two steps that's great for water infiltration well and there's there's a lot of problems with that right at the moment there's a lot of moisture in that entrance the other thing is this there's a nice little standing seam roof on the back of that but it only covers about half the door there of the entrance where you step down the doors swing out you really it's it's not a good situation so what we were after this addition is not visible from anywhere except coming in from the back at the parking lot you can't see it from either side um basically what I tried to do is make this thing disappear the Mion for the windows and the roof overhang the fascia board that would be white to match what's on the original building now the glass would be very clear because I I literally want this thing to be people to be able to look through see the actual building behind it I don't want to change that material on the inside and the way it's done there's a very I tried to keep this thing as thin as possible a flat roof over this it overhangs on either side where the doors are the way you enter around the church One Way Comes in the other goes out so when somebody pulls up and they drop somebody off it's right there on one side and when they pick them up and they leave it's on the other side if I could just cut you off a second this is that is not it that is not that's correct that's it that's the original elevation got yes you got the wrong the wrong photograph yeah that's I was trying to match it up and I'm like that's not what I'm seeing okay so this is what so what we were trying to do is get the overhangs out far enough from the glass enclosure so people could get out of the cars be covered and also the Slate that we're doing in the floor on the inside and outside that would be heated so in the winter time if there's snow or there rain nobody has has to go out there and take care of it okay it's melted before it ever hit when it hits the ground so there's a lot of different issues to get this thing to work with the floor being level with the outside you only have literally a few inches that you have to work with Okay and then I can get the steps inside nice handrails and it works it works works well um and when people pull up they can actually see the people standing inside when they know they're there and ready to be picked up or when they're being dropped off that's what we were trying to do so is this like a corer storefront system exactly so your what is it the inch and 3/4 M yeah I'm trying to keep that as thin as possible like I said if I could get it to disappear I would it's kind of hard to put a roof on something and make it disappear sure all right so on this plan here it says Kingston Presbyterian Church in Township of buing Mercer County New Jersey no that's the um that's New York that's a mistake that the engineer made yeah okay that's what I was located newey address the engineer yeah but yeah it just says in Township of viewing yeah I thought I was sorry about that yeah I didn't have blame Trenton Engineers okay and it really well you don't have a lot of room to work with on the back side because you have those entrance and ex it and then there's a little masonary uh CMU block building on the one side that they use for storage okay and there's enough room for a car or a truck to go through but not much more and I think it's only like 6' 6 off the back of the building so if you're trying to make the uh the the Mion system disappear you're doing a dark bronze or something like that is that no white white because everything else the stucco on the back is kind of a cream color but all the windows the fascia boards The Rake boards they're all white okay and then the um the doors the that you're moving to the side is going to be standard cornerer store front doors they open out their glass and you're ending it with it is that what you're that those windows are there okay they're existing yeah so oh they're behind the bushes here they're going to cut the bushes down I see and then they're going to bring the roof across the top acoss it's kind of nice into that how you handling the the rainwater off the top of this thing there's a pitch like a/4 in per foot okay and then the way I laid it out in some details right now is there is a built-in gutter okay on that flat roof I don't have a lot of depth to do that no well that's if you look at what I've done with the structural steel okay it's trying to make it as thin as possible and then get it out past that main steel beam that carries the overhangs on either side and then you have a 3-in tube Square tube that comes down in the corners of the building so it's going to be interior to the building no or it's it's on the outside but it matches the corner of the glass you're going to want to put a pretty good head wall flash here yeah that's going to come up more than you're showing probably yeah typically what I do with that is I'll have then cut the stucco bring it up on the outside then slide it back up okay underneath the stucco and that's how I try to keep it as do gra clean what again what I'd like to try to do is take out that stucco it's typically about 3/4 of an inch put a piece of plywood wman IED Plywood And then you're flashing comes flat and then back in what you don't want to see is above this flat roof a piece of flashing this time you get counter flashing on no matter what you do though right no I'm I'm very aware of that the the details all the way through this I mean every little quarter of an inch has to be detailed out so it's a little Jewel these are the fun projects yeah one architect to the other all right um I see what they're doing here it kind of makes sense to me uh with at least with what they're trying to do like you mentioned you know years ago you go in the front door nowadays people are lazy and they go in the easiest and quickest erress they you know they can get in do you even open the front doors we do open the front doors it's open on 27 road there's not much parking so you might get three or four people that Park on 27 and they come in the front door one side door and there's a a lift on the other side we converted one of the staircases in the front to a lift and we have um handicap parking on side near the lift so they come in the front of the building but they don't come in the front door they come in the lift or the other side door usually are you going to do some kind of ESS light at each of the opening sides all the lights inside and out they're like a 3in LED downlight um I don't know I I don't want to add anything else to the building okay I want to keep it as possible so you don't you get that uh yes that'll disappear also I in I'm from mcgomery Township and we have a very strict Dark Skies policy in m so they we've never allow too many light fixtures on the outside of buildings so thank you for taking such great care with this I mean this is extremely well done and well thought out thank you and what was your name again Thomas Lee le e it's a lot of work for little rest it's a beautiful building over here I can find it cuz this this could have looked hideous yeah I mean it really and we've seen some hideous vestibules before I'm a little concerned about the white moons on but I think it'll be okayy ar every little detail right every little SC little detail um I mean we could eliminate them all to do buck blazing how do you feel about that I think it actually needs something to to Anchor it to Anchor it down and I was there the other day and that's the real color as opposed to this pinkish clay yeah okay nice all right um anybody had that was very thorough thank you for taking us through that anybody have any questions or comments I'm good no additional questions or comments any the public have any questions or comments on this application seeing as the public comes forward does anybody have a motion on this application that's not named Bob I'll make a motion to accept great job thank you second really perfect all in favor I any opposed all right thank you very much yeah very good thank you thank you I love seeing hand drawings I right I still do everything I am great job I got involved with the Kingston church was through Haiti and they have a member who or a past member who was a doctor in in Haiti and that's where I started meeting people at the church because I do her buildings down the so interesting Community there thank you take care thanks all right um uh 4513 Route 27 this is uh new siding window shutters restoration ofad come on [Music] down everything's out everything [Music] [Applause] un see 13 27 and your name for the record sir uh I'm Craig de I'm the architect for the owner here you you've been here before I [Music] have and I'm sorry the owner joanni Joan from okay so tell us about your project um so I for some history uh giovan and his wife was on this property for some time um they had some tenants in there over some time and and the tends have moved out they now want to restore this house uh for their own personal home um we are here before you this evening to talk about the restoration of the front facade and the sides of this uh building um and what we're planning to do in that regard um we did some research uh and found some older photos from the historical side of Princeton uh which we believe is the home that actually had it one point in addition on the side of it um so with that information and and I think we're pretty much on uh son's the uh chimney systems and so on we basically geared our drawings off of that what is on the home right now um is uh aluminum siding over a uh old clap board basically not PVC P PVC siding over the a vinyl basically over the old clapboard and the clapboard was originally held connected to uh full cut studs of the nature of the construction type that would happen so you're saying this portion of the house here over does no longer exist no correct you know that's probably the original part of the house yeah that's what I thought too and then that became the addition by the size and scale of the windows you can see you got the 99 usually they build this quickly yep build their Barn then they build the estate mhm yeah I was think cu the barn makes money okay so what we have left is is the main part that we have there the second half of the later part of it still built in the same structure that it was uh full cut Timbers um on the inside face the clapboard was originally put up right up on the structure that is there there's not you know 16 in on Center they didn't build that way back then you got 30 in 32 in it Le in uh structural supports going back and forth the um the board is basically at this case completely deteriorated it's been covered by uh a poly vinyl we want to take everything back down to the studs that are there reinforce any studs put up plywood to make sure the building structurally sound and then come back um and put up a cementitious siding in the same fashion uh size and scale of what was there before so the Hardy plank Hardy plank exactly smooth finish yes no Impressions no Impressions a smooth finish on it and then the windows we want to replace them in again four over fours as in the drawings that are there new shutters um shutters or decorative shut no they're going to be decorative um the dental moldings that are up there restore them as best we can fill them in in the ways that need to some of them are pretty rot out there isn't integrated gutter system that's part of that Roof System that's there we want to maintain that is it a Yankee gutter or it's a Yankee gutter mhm and the drawings represent that stuff what we also would like to do is in that front porch um rest store that front that front entrance and we'd like to do it um in a stone which would be a big blue stone basically coming across the whole area correct correct yep all the way through and that right now they're I just like a wooden de right now yeah it's work place correct correct um that is really for the front facade and again on the sides the same type of thing the entire house all the way around the back cementitious siding keeping with the side elevations following the same language of this the four of fours your elevations don't show chimneys correct cuz there is no new chimy going in is there existing chimney no they been previously removed yeah yep there's no there's no from that photo right there were two chimneys that were there wow probably two on the other side mhm on no no it's a it's a the Bas you can see the foundation where they used to be so we just doing the the side of the front looks like the rest of the house is being worked on as well right so our presentation here tonight is about the historic uh renovation and restoration we will have to go through a process for full building permits and the Zoning for any back rebuilding of the piece in the side so some of this work has already started right yes yes we are here tonight based on violation that showed up uh the work had started um giovan had started work in there cleaning things up and one thing left to the other as he started taking place apart and building is completely gutted the inside of it is gutted correct I have pictures of the house I mean it wasn't all the wood in the inside outd how it was insted installation same thing that know there no way that I at one point I was actually thinking of you know uh removing the dino side and putting you know like sing it down and bringing it back to life trying to restore there is no way there's no wood to I like the front I love the front of the house I love all the white and black and will be the same thing that's what I was playing to C that I love the front I just want to do like a REO I so what's this proposed gravel parking area back here so these drawings that you have here these were civil drawings that were presented to the township uh some moons ago this gravel parking lot is not in place in my this is I used to well I have owned this property for about five years now uh probably longer than that uh I want to say six years it used to be you know like where people when I bought it people used to put trucks in there so I bought it mainly for my landscaping business I own a landscaping business and then I also turned it into a farm which right now we're going you know we're on a farm assess uh with the town and that's why we have the grael parking lot because we grow up we grow a lot of our own trees plant our own trees you know okay that's what also like I don't know you guys are familiar with this area but on the back all of these was are leres like you take some if you look at some pictures on the back you can see Rose of trees that were abandoned like Norway sprues White Pines uh Magnolias you know like nice trees they were just abandon when uh and uh so are you keeping the is the gravel area the gravel area is there okay the gravel area is there and that's St yeah that's St okay eventually what I'm well the reason why I'm saying is more that this is kind of like my you know my hopefully my last house okay okay uh that's why I'm willing to put all the money in there because I want to have you know my farmhouse pretty much yeah I get it which it goes really well with the type of business that I do which I'm probably not going to be doing about long but at least for a couple years so you're doing there a Pao on the back and an addition on the back well yes that's what those pictures are showing right because what it ended up happening was like you can see here this this was exting existing MH I did a I want well want to do a Bluestone poy on the back like cover I cover on it's not an addition just they consider that an addition part of theof cover mhm so what what did you demolish here you demolish a big portion the well the wall like all the like all these wall is existing okay but what happened like that wall was so bad that I took got because this was an addition at one point I guess I don't think it was part of the regional house okay so but that wall I had it to replace it all it was allotted out it was all rotted out I have pictures and all that I can share with you guys um the housing what what are uh what are these existing windows are they vinyl Replacements or no like these ones on the back new construction yeah on the front here what oh those I don't those are those VL some are vinyl windows some are not even in windows that are there just storm windows hanging the back our uh new uh P inst like this house it looks like one point someone did a lot of with it and it was like that because they have a commercial no we had to cut that out one of the beans inside they rebuilt some of the structure that's there so we're going to go through that process with permitting make sure it's there myself as an architect constructional engineer going through everything that's been done and getting it up want to do on the outside so um up here kind of windows are po here so these are simulated divided lights um whether it's be yeah no a higher level than a 400 um to get the simulated div body am 400 I don't know if they have um you know so we're going to and again I'm saying similar divided that means that they're on both sides verus Center Glass in there so it looks like full depth it's not just inside the thickness of the window um so it looks more uh appropriate you have a m projection on you correct correct what okay um the front doors the wood doors are original We Believe are there and we want to restore them the way they are the trans and above it um as we talked about M so you want to restore the existing front door and the transm mhm you want to replace the windows with simulated the light you're going to do Hardy cement fiber cement um it's more to write fiberous cement siding smooth finish good answer then you're going to do corner boards correct corner boards and then what your in your your down leaders and count down spouts are going to be round half copper round uh coming down um I wasn't proposing a copper uh but I don't think the copper will look good with that house yeah I was thinking just a regular white down either white or black I think I would do white so I just Blends into theer would on the house no no I mean no I I that's that's what they use and you're going to do um you're going to try and redo the Yankee gutters correct I want to maintain that rack that's in the front really only in the back um it will be a a half round gutter that runs around the back of it it is a flat roof basically that's running with internal gutters there okay and then you said you want to try and uh restore the brackets and dentals yes um and you're going to uh replicate in wood needs to be replaced that's our goal were you engaged for this project prior to the demolition starting no okay for shutters you said the shutters are going to be simulated MH and um I'm going to tell you that we're going to do p panels on the lower and lers on the top that's fine cuz that's what would have been done that's fine so what is so Aver looks like that panel is just a flat you're going to make sure the louers are going the right direction we do um most Lou prefabricated louvers they're actually going the wrong direction cuz the lers would be down when the windows closed and they they're not I mean they're going to be fixed open so we won't have all the hardware on and we won't have any of that no pent is the uh roof new or is that plan to get replaced as well the roof was replaced recently am I correct mhm and what wrong answer what what is what was the what is the roof uh now it's it's a architectural dimensional [Music] SLE existing okay well that's how all us started started leaking from the top and then we fin a lot of rotting wood and we just kind of kept going and kept going next thing we know [Music] entire your not 10 doesn't match just oh that's a square m that's a square tab yeah there's two different parts we put St not for I'm not uh and then the treatment on the foundation wall you're going to do just a parge a parge of the existing Stone that's there the state what about the uh hoods over the windows yeah we'd like to maintain them or actually re put them back in in the front as shown on the DRS there both with SS and and the hood ands and then the porch roof we talked about the dental moldings right correct and then you're going to do like an EP flat roof on that correct what what's uh what's with this bump out that's happening is there Ro on that it's it's it's it's almost a flat roof thing flat yeah and then you can see that's an addition too cuz it wasn't actually in some of these older photos someone must have bumped that out too so then we're just it's a slender scale of a window there you can see that difference mhm or yeah mhm so I see that what looks like to be oil heat I'm assuming maybe hot water heating so there's no there's no systems in the house right now the oil he wasn't there when I bought the house I don't know is is gas available yeah gas is there we were do gas in before there okay cuz I see in the front picture here a metal uh yeah metal D vent kind of thing M I'd like to see a little detail on how you plan on doing the front stairs I don't have a full instruction detail on how the step we going to come together um and I definitely submit them do like slabs correct to the steps yeah like I was telling him why will do like we do old time you know do a footing do block you know I will do imp partial size to much the side are you doing solid solid SL steps or you going to do tread and like St veneer on on the R I was thinking that it will ni how just charge it and blue stone thread like a 2in Bluestone thread with the rock face on it okay you know all the way around and then on the landing I would do like I would do kind of like almost like a softway tile sway Panet I mean I will like picture frame The Landing okay and then do like a Subway pattern with blue St in the middle got got you right ROM either way with those houses I me was good you could do a blue you can even do like a recycle blue can get we actually have this house of demo Inon we have a lot of that I always it you might be able to get you like Steps coming across full slabs that you can just yeah like full threads they super threads they call in piece of stone yeah we can get them stack them up that would that instead of having open you know then you you have RoR then you have do they a pretty big machine to lift the an excavator yeah a lot of those little houses will have like a big Grand Step well the way that we usually we still build it with blocks so we see them in block and then like you know with an excavator with the suction yeah you the vacuum yeah ring [Music] 8 8T wide I don't yeah eight or 10 yeah you can even do it with like the two pieces too as long as you Stager the points yeah any questions from that end I don't know if we see the whole picture I you got it written out on that uh list there you don't have the architectural huh you don't have the architecturals no I have that uh too but I'm just saying of all the the things that are going to happen just a lot of things going on at this point and playing catchup um other than that you know with the shape of the house and the condition of the house I I definitely see and and sympathize with what you're trying to do um except next time get permits we're going to for now that's all we're doing uh I actually wish one of our other members was here Glenn um the par because they uh they recently put together a book on the history of Kingston and um he had mentioned that this house um at one point might have actually been an inn M um I that every house up G but there there was some ties to this to this house wish I remember this is why my neighbor because my neighbor has lived there for years and he he gave me some pictures too and you know he tells me the story that this house was owned by some guy in New York that he used to come over here they used to have like a ballroom on the because that was a beautiful house it still is like if you go and look at it now almost like made it per form but almost like a park like you know like we planted a bunch of trees a lot of trees were dying but what my neighbor was telling me his name is Eric that they used to have like a lot of people from New York used to come when he was little party like they used to have like a nice you know like I don't know what's called but like like a little like an outdoor roof area and he remembers because every Sunday he and his father used to go and clean up the property he was only five or 6 years old and uh you know I mean I like I love this area I work pretty much around this area so I you know I just love the area nice and quiet nice feels like you're in a form but you're close to everything so are you satisfied with um what you're describing for the f um I think it might be nice a little detail [Music] show would it be okay if uh I submit that when I submit for my building permits and the rest of the details come about and yeah I I think so so what we would do is uh we would do a conditional approval with conditions that um those details additional details are submitted um and I think um another thing that we're going to need to see is um the location of the site utilities like where you putting condensers for air conditioners okay uh are you going to screen any of that stuff like that um good question uh I know that it might be off of topic or whatever like a I'm saying we did the once uh with the house not this house another house for one of the customers M it's a a wall considered a fence no wall is a wall fence is a fence no because like I'm only asking because that was also like another like that was at one point I was thinking of building like a c wall in front of the house a free standing wall yeah like you know that would need to be reviewed yeah but it do I mean right now that we're here and I'm like hey you know what because last time that we did it they counted that as a fence more than you know because it was 6 high and whatever yeah if you're doing it if I mean it depends on so so typically we but and that and my other question was going does that count to you guys absolutely um and but typically are you saying that do that out here or on the property the fence so right right at the front yeah yeah kind of like right in the front so so typically we frown upon that um because uh what we like to do is maintain the semblance of what the rest of the community is like oh that so to keep what you're doing consistent um with what everybody else is doing and the idea is not to be uh and another reason why I'm saying like you as you know I me I'm going to be moving into this house there's a lot of traffic going through and a lot of big trucks I get it and you know that was why you know my wife and I was talking hey you know you got Trap Rock right over pretty much I mean trap rock is my back neighbor yeah because that property goes like 8 acres and he goes like all to the back so so typically and we've had a lot of uh a lot of conversations about this typically fencing in the front of a property like this the fence has to be behind the front elevation of the house so that the front elevation is proud to the street the show the house right so I understand the Privacy noise that we get that all the time but you know it is it's about maintaining community and making sure that the the the district itself is maintained got it all right so um so far um what the conversation is is a conditional approval um with the condition that there's a resubmission with the additional details for the front steps and porch slight sight plan uh showing condensers and other um any site utilities um and then was there anything else you wanted to see think I think it's just the for the front steps steps did you want want any like uh uh faux chimneys up top or anything if if they're not there now you didn't demolish them right no if they're not there now there's no point of recreating okay um bring me S if I wanted to add a chimy you have to come back you have to come back over here because we're also considering the option but I'm yeah the ones I was actually mentioning were like uh the fake no and I mean if I was bu Chim I will build it with like I will do a firepl right and then bring it up yeah it's interesting cuz there was probably you can actually kind of see there's a set here and there's a set here and and those chimneys were not I'm surprised they're actually demolished cuz they're actually also providing sheer resistance to the wood framing so so those are actually integral to the way they thought about the structure of the house yeah built in so God C well that's why I'm getting back to the idea the whole house has to get Plywood And there's my Shear because there isn't anything here right now yeah how did they build that the basement you kind of like you have the Fel stone wall because that's what it is you know fuel stone with water and and then like it bumps out like two like a foot and a half like with like a big Stone and then it looks like they build it up from their house yeah yeah a COR it's called coring so so they basically use the cever of each success of set to transfer the weight down what you'll actually see a lot in these houses and I wouldn't be surprised if it was in this house is that when you get to the attic the chimney will shift over so that the front of the house look symmetrical so like the fireplace is where the fireplace needs to be but then they move the chimney over through coring to get it where it wants to be aesthetically for you know um I mean this is it's kind of like an italianate vernacular house and and have those book ends okay any more questions or comments this say one two and the landing whatever any questions an no no questions P you good no I think we we um they covered covered everything with that any uh questions or comments from the public did you bring this whole crew they're very intered sounds beautiful go for itated as all right um so so with that I think the conversation is a conditional approval with resubmission um with uh showing the details for how the stairs and the porch are going to be done um with site plan showing locations of condensers and all that good stuff um and they coming back here they giv it to me they're giving it to you for confirmation okay good so it's going to come with a permit submission and you're going to hold the permit until I verify until you that's perfect appreciate [Applause] that oh and and another part of my condition was that panel shut on the ground floor cuz that's historically accurate anything anything for the basement [Music] windows you're asking now or in the middle of I hear as you mentioned windows we don't have an official motion yet U no I'm just what are you doing with the Bas window we're we're putting it in as as windows that are there they're not jealousy windows but small uh slider windows that are going to be in there like Hopper Windows um yeah n Hoppers are the worst we do sliders sliders the problem with sliders is you only get half the window you get half the window and you got that seam in the midle um all right cool so we'll see those with the resubmission package as well cuz we'll we'll get your final commit package so uh that that's my motion I guess um anybody want to make that one page second all right so motion mean second report all in favor I any opposed okay so we for