okay so good evening this is the planning board meeting with the township of Franklin April 17th 2024 in accordance with the open public meetings act PL 1975 chapter 231 adequate notice of this regular meeting of the planning board of the township of Franklin has been provided uh if everyone could please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance IED to the of the United States of America to the for it stands one nation God indivisible withy and justice for all councilman and Barson here Theodore Chase here Robert Lort Sammi sioban Jennifer ragnell Jennifer I am here she's here Mahia Rafi here Charles Brown here Robert Thomas Rebecca Hilbert here Mark Dancy chairman arini here okay we have two sets of minutes the first one from the regular meeting of February 21st 2024 councilman and barison Charles Brown and Mark Dancy cannot vote um I will move to approve Theodor Chase Robert Lort yes Sammy sioban yes Jennifer ragnell Yes Mahir Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca Hilbert yes chairman orini yes uh second set am minutes from the regular meeting March 20th 2024 councilman and barison Sammi shoban Mahir Rafi and Mark Dancy cannot vote second the Chase yes Robert Lort yes Jennifer ragau Yes Charles Brown yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca Hilbert yes and chairman orini yes uh one resolution uh page Rivier PN 20- z002 councilman and bison Sami Shaban Mahir Rafi cannot vote I move okay uh Bob moved all second okay so Bob and then you right okay Theodor Chase yes Robert Lort yes Jennifer ragnow Yes Charles Brown yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca Hilbert yes Mark Dy yes and chairman arini yes um we have one discussion item extension of time Executive Drive Investments are you here oh so Mr chairman while while he's trying to get the mic going just a reminder again with these mics I I noticed when the board was Voting that they're it's extremely directional so you you really I think even if you turn your head it doesn't pick it up you really want to speak directly into it two or three inches from the mic so tell it to the board members and any of the the applicants or anybody else speaking tonight to be pretty much what how I'm speaking into the mic right now sounds good now I got it I got it I'm not a tech okay M uh Jim stall St AHL I'm here on the Executive Drive application for an extension on a previously approved uh resolution by this board the resolution I believe expires onor about April 20th to the 21st and we would like a one-year extension uh the reasons are the customary uh that of course resolution compliance in today's world takes longer than it used to in the old days because of all the outside agencies and we may be able to make it but we didn't want to take a chance so we're looking for a one-year extension thank you um any discussion from the board if not I would make a motion to extend one year to April 21st 2025 second councilman and Barson yes Theodore Chase yes Robert Lort yes Sammy shoban yes Jennifer ragau Yes Mahir Rafi Charles Brown yes Robert Thomas yes chairman Orsini yes um so the time has come for opening the meeting to General planning pment so if you're here and I suspect that the majority of you are for the Onyx hearing um I'll discuss that when we get to that hearing um if there are any general planning comments not related to Onyx um now would be the time so I make a motion to open the meeting to the public for any general planning comment all in favor I meeting is open to the public for any general planning comment seeing no one coming forward I move to close the public session second all in favor I motion carries and public is closed now we get to the um only hearing We Have Tonight onx 789 so let me give a little little Preamble on this um somewhat Starcrossed hearing where we uh didn't have enough room in the municipal uh building for the first and then we had a monsoon for for the hearing a couple weeks ago um so now we we we finally we finally get there um the way I want to run this tonight and this will not be finished tonight by any stretch of the imagination is um after each of the applicants uh Witnesses uh we're going to open the meeting to the public for questioning on the topics of those Witnesses those witnesses will be the architect the traffic engineer um and we hope to get through at least those two those two witnesses tonight um if you are you know here to make a general comment we're going to have a general um opening to the public um when we finish all the testimony within the next couple of meetings um so I I don't um I don't want to necessarily hear that tonight um hopefully we can contain things to cross-examination mark key will keep time everyone will get five minutes um and their five minutes will be um inclusive um if there's a response then Mark stops the timer and and and you know you get you get five minutes so uh with that um I'll open it up to the uh attorney and witness thank you Mr Rini uh Jim stall Stahl the firm is Boris golden Foley violan stall in north brunck New Jersey uh I've been here before and it's always a pleasure uh before I get into I just want to confirm with Christine that jurisdiction is uh appropriate the notices are still valid based upon the unfortunate German of the last meeting am I correct yes that's correct thank you very much uh I did want to just indicate and then I'll do a short opening I don't like to hear myself talk nor do I think other people want to but the uh where we are as follows with no uh reflection on the board decision was made to uh cancel that meeting uh I received notice and I told my team as quickly as I could I have my principal engineer uh from bowler engineering is somewhere out of the country on a pre-scheduled vacation uh it is not the way I'd like to uh work my applications as you know but I didn't want to inconvenience all the people that are here we want to get this thing moving so I have and I spoke to Mr Clarken several times about the procedure subject to you Mr chairman and the way we're going to do it uh is that the architect for the project is going to be sworn and will testify and his presentation will indicate the elevations and look at the building the interior of the building height the parking lot and other non-engineering uh base is just so the board has a has a look at what's going to happen for the next witness he's not going to be able to testify in storm drainage on sanitary uh on other engineering issues but solely upon the look of the project the site plan alone and I assume I'll have him stand at the podium is that the process M Mr chairman it's up to you he can he can sit at the table well next to you that that'll work as well uh that way I can have my other assistant sit here with the computer uh after uh my client is is done uh Mr Kastner he's the architect we will then put on Betsy Dolan from Dolan and Dean uh most of us know who she is she's I don't want to say she's been around a lot because she's a young woman so I can't get I don't want to get in trouble with that Mr claron just gave me the look uh but she will testify based upon her report of uh June 2022 as may be updated by information which she's received since that date uh she'll go through the testimony and some of the variances one or two that reflect on the traffic and the parking the variances themselves uh the D variant not the D oh strike me uh the C variances if you will uh we address them at the next meeting when our engineer is present and then he will be here to field all questions and to be cross-examined Andor grilled as the case may be uh following the engineer we will have uh our planner professional planner uh Ed rolling uh coing I always get his name wrong uh who was uh filling in very well for uh Mr O'Brien uh who had some uh uh surgery but he doing well uh so that is our pre presentation of the witnesses they will all be subject to cross-examine they will all be back before this board until the board indicates that they are released and are not necessary to come back at any particular meeting so that is the format we have connected the HDMI uh you sit here and let Dan you take the computer for me and plus you'll be right next to me I thank you I ready well I may and as I say I I don't waste time I know that you've all read the rather uh complete analysis from uh Mr Healey uh which outlines everything but tonight we're here on uh onx 789 LLC uh it may be couched in terms of either amended amended or just a preliminary and final site plan because there had been other approvals another action by the board over the past years including a retail Center uh as I say our engineer will discuss the prior use of the property but the important thing is that this is a completely permitted at this stage permitted use I did I didn't want to say something else there's a big crowd and and I respect each and every one of them and I will I would expect not they show nothing other than courtesy to me and other venues so uh I know that the chairman will keep me and and everyone uh in the proper Forum so as I said this is a permitted use of that being a warehouse that that word the people today don't many people don't like the the word Warehouse I'm not going to argue that uh I will make one comment just editorially I came out of one of the meetings several months ago that was not controversial it was amendment to one of the existing Warehouse users and the uh senior citizen uh stops me and he talks to me and he says you know it's our fault and I said what do you mean it's your fault he says we all want immediate satisfaction we want prime Amazon We Want U uh was it Wayfair uh we want we want and I'm not saying that's right or wrong but we do and that's one of the reasons that we're all living today uh with warehouses which has have supplanted shopping centers many of which are having issues because people don't want to go and feel the merchandise or don't have the time so anyway the the issue is as I've indicated that uh there are several variances which will be addressed at the next meeting uh with regard to uh uh some issues with regard to sidey yard but the overall project that we say is a uh permitted use I know that someone is going to be here uh so I I don't want to steal his Thunder but to a certain extent I will Mr Clarken will uh uh introduce someone who's going to come up and they represent what's called Buckeye uh you Bucky pipeline which is near adjacent to the building and there is an issue if you will that uh there is a violation of an easement agreement Mr booki who is a a superb land use attorney as well as an attorney of his own right in other areas represents them and he'll indicate uh what their issue is we have taking the position and I think this board knows that uh I don't BS I don't want to use it you know I don't offend anyone that I stand up and I'm transparent my staff my team indicates that they can and will satisfy the concerns of fuy I don't think and I would requested Mr orini and Mr Clark and this not an issue for tonight uh it's an issue that will be addressed between now and the next meeting by by the engineers uh it is not a it's it's an issue you're too close to the easement you can't plant on it and we're going to we're going to address it but I wanted to make sure that you all understood that uh and Mr Clark and as soon as I'm done with this wordy presentation uh I assume we invite him up so that's really the the outline of what we're doing uh and I I don't want to have really that that's where we are and as I say our engineer and our team I think will provide you with a lot of information Mr chairman if I could I have a threshold question Mr stall in complying with whatever the restrictions are due to the easement is your team comfortable that there would not be any revisions to the traffic circulation internally or any other site Improvement I don't want to have this board okay going down a path and then find out later that you have to change the plan Mr Clarken the problem with you and me is more often separately of course we come to the same conclusion that exact uh item that you just discussed was addressed by uh myself and my team uh earlier today and yesterday that I did not want to come back in on an amended amended before this board uh I have been advised uh by in fact this young man here who's part of the engineering team that the issues can be addressed without requiring any Amendment it may require I'm standing up it may require some administrative uh adjustment if you will but I they have advised me that there's nothing that will provide for a uh a change in the overall plans and require an amendment and that's that's as we know right now all right thank you uh Mr wisnoski would you like to put your appearance in for the record please just want here sure good evening Mr chairman councilmen members of the board my name is John wisneski I represent Buckeye Partners LP and Bucky Buckeye pipeline they are the owners of an easement across the property and we have expressed uh just this evening to the applicant uh concerns we have with the specific language of the easement and how this site plan impacts that easement and we'd love an opportunity at some point in this hearing to be able to present testimony from our engineer about those concerns uh thank you very much I'm not trying to run the show it may if it's all right with M was new it might make more sense to provide the testimony uh at the next meeting when we've had an opportunity to have my Engineers they spoke tonight they spend some time tonight uh it just make makes sense to come on May the 1st uh after the engineers have spoken and we may resolve it by then but that's your call let's see how far we get with the witnesses we don't have to make that decision now I agree Mr chairman uh Council uh we're here at the board's pleasure if we get reached tonight fine if it's another meeting that's fine as well okay we like like Jim says we'll we'll see how how far we get tonight um so why don't you go ahead um and and proceed with your first witness Daniel want you to stand up raise your right hand I'm right here tell me swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you go name and address for the record please Danel yeah you got sit down you can sit sit down you've been sworn in already all right spell your last name please c a s t n e r okay proceed by whom are you employed in what capacity sir manini Duffy Architects and what do you do there I'm a principal and a registered architect New Jersey licensed architect yes so long having been licensed for how long have you been licensed I've been practicing for 24 years and your license is still in good standing St is that correct that's correct you appeared before and testified before administrative boards in the state of New Jersey yes rough guess he he he's accepted as a as a licensed architect just one question I know Jim will ask it if I don't um what are the architectural plans that you're U testifying to ji prepared um under your direction yes see you did a better with me Mr all right Dan I'm gonna call you Daniel because that's your given name uh I know I have to move this closer Chris is I Dan you um you were involved in the prepar of the architectural plans is that correct that's correct and as part of that you also were involved in the design of the site plan is that correct that's correct because you have to coordinate the site plan and the architectural drawings to make sure to the extent possible that they match is that correct yes that's correct and uh you're not an engineer but you did uh provide input with regard to parking height of the building Etc is that correct yes that's correct now just so you know and I the question could come up that I asked you uh you have never been to the site is that correct that's correct you've done everything through aerial photographs uh meeting with your supportment uh and the engineering is that correct that's correct now uh briefly and then I'm going to go oh thank you Chris uh then I'm going to go spot to spot um what did what did you prepare what did your organization actually prepare so hold it can you hear me okay yes we prepared uh we prepared elevations of the of the building as well as an elevation of elevation is a view of the side of the building so if you can imagine looking at the side of the building we provided four elevations one from each of the directions the cardinal directions from the site looking at the side of the building so that you can see what the building looks like uh the the entrance the uh fenestration or Windows the the building Etc now we've have thrown up on the on the board to left and right uh is that an elevation that's correct and that drawing replicates what was submitted by my office on this application is that correct that's correct and to the extent there's any change in any document that you testify to Via colorization or otherwise please tell me so that I can advise Mr Clarken and the board you understand that yes there is not I understand so what is what is let's call this Mr Clark and we can't mark them uh can you go give me a signature block on that exhibit give it the uh reference of the drawing number in the bottom right hand corner what is the drawing number D a300 and what is a300 a300 is exterior building elevations and again which sides does it show uh it's well the front of the building or also known as the southeast uh I'm sorry northeast corner uh Northeast view uh which is the top uh top elevation on the four drawings the Northwest view or the right side of the building the southeast or the left side of the building and the Southwest or the back of the building and how high is this building the building is 50 ft and is one story or is it a mezzanine involved in the inside um I believe uh well you did have a mezanine yes there's a there's a mezzanine level in the building all right and that's going to be part of the subsequent drawings with regard to construction is that correct correct and now you have 50 ft uh many people in the audience will ask that question uh why does it have to be that height so the 50 feet is required based on the the program or what we think will be the the building will be used for and it's also the the um what's allowed based on the uh Zoning for the the area is this the customary when I say the customary and usual height today for buildings of this type yes is that because you want to put your racking system in uh to the extent that ATT tenant needs racking and still have room and spacing for the sprinkler system yes absolutely and is the building going to be fully sprinkled yes and there are offices there are there not yes and approximately how many square feet are the offices um off hand I I would approximate about uh 400 square four or 500 square feet of of the plant and the balance of the building is how many square feet for warehouse space is that about 6,000 we we can actually shift to that uh the site plan in AC I'll do that in a minute okay you're getting ahead of me all right so the what we're looking at on the screen is what the building will look like from the outside is that correct yes that's correct is there anything else you want to uh add to your description of the elevations no I I would just point out that the the main entrance is in the uh Northeast or the top view on the right side um or I'm sorry on the yes on the right side um and um yeah there's any other questions let me know well the I'm going to say the use of this building is contemplated to be for what we call Dry Goods is that correct yes that's correct uh and at this time just so that we put it out there there is no present proposed tenant is that correct yes that's correct but any tenant that comes in to the building uh after assuming there's an approval uh that will have to provide what's called a tency review to the Frankton Township office is that correct yes that's correct in that fashion whether it's code enforcer or building inspector regardless of construction that's something else that uh the applicant will have to show use hours uh and and other indications of uh of the proposed use is that correct yes that's correct all right now let's go the the um what's your next slide on the the building itself you have the interior yes the a uh c301 c301 is going up on the board and uh is that that when you say c301 that's the number which is in the lower right hand corner of the document is that correct yes all right and what does C3 and that is colorized is that correct yes and the version that was provided to the board was not colorized is that correct if you know it was yes okay it was provided it was called yes all right so describe uh c301 please c301 explains that meats and Bounds of the site I now I'm I have to interrupt you because we all of us use certain terms of art but the many people in the audience may not understand and I want to make sure that everyone what is a meats and Bounds those are the dimensions the size the the feet and inches that make up the the uh the Sid of the property that we're discussing here that's a compass headings and then the feet that goes in north east west south is that correct yes that's how when or anyone in this audience bought a house they have a survey and they had a meats and Bs attached is that correct correct all right go ahead yes it also shows where the um curb cuts and uh and uh proposed entry points uh would be from the U the streets that surround the site in this case New Brunswick Road and Old New Brunswick Road are two entry points on Old New Brunswick Road are shown on the bottom of the plan uh it shows the location of parking it shows the location of Lo docks it shows where the main entrance is located and that would be on the lower right hand side of the building the building itself is that tan colored rectangle in the middle there and it does provide the block and lot number as well as the uh the overall size of the building footprint building footprint is the square footage described here as uh is 102733254 2500 I 2500 office uh and 53 parking spaces 10 loading spaces it also explains slow because uh my mind had to move to something else on for a second let's try this again how many how many Bay doers are there I apologize I have to there are 10 10 base all right now go again and just recite for me again the the parking space count yes so the parking space count there are 53 parking spaces and 10 loading spaces so that that was the loading dock question all right go ahead um in addition we do uh note where we we provide um uh accessible uh or U handicapped parking spaces as well as uh EV charging stations uh we provide setbacks uh setbacks is the distance between the building and the edge of the property uh we provide a 50ft setback back from Old New Brunswick Road which we consider the front of the building 77 ft from the right side and also I believe 45' 7 in from the rear of the property now the the in addition to that this uh the site layout actually has a lot of the it does note all of the um the various code and and requirements for uh for zoning on that right side that's the bulk requirements uh uh table that's located on the upper right hand side of the plan and that includes for example we discussed before the 50 Foot uh Building height uh which is noted as M as the building height um uh on this as well as the uh the diff the different requirements for setbacks as well as our conformance to each one of those uh those requirements uh as as the zoning pertains to this uh this site now without offending you you're really not and I use the word competent I'm not insulting you but you're not competent to testify as to the as to the detail with regard to these plans am I correct cor uh correct you have I've been looking for the papers that is under your plan all right thank you uh and there is lighting uh which is on the plan which you did not design but it's as required is that correct yes that's correct and is this ADA Compliant with regard to parking spaces and any other ADA requirements uh required by New Jersey law yes and you know that because you design the building is that correct that's correct and uh let me just see uh oh in addition to the 50 fet of height is there also a parit that's in addition to the 50 or is that not included in the height there's a there's a twoot parapet and what is a parapet parapet is the uh side of the building that extends above um and it provides a a container for the drainage of the building and where are the utilities going to be that being the HVAC and any required generators if we know now I don't think we know uh at this time but they would be screened as required is that correct absolutely and if they can be put on the uh roof rooftop they would be screened by the parit is that correct yes as allowed and if they're put on the uh the real estate the the grass areas they would be uh screened as required as well is that correct yes okay is there anything that uh the floor plan that I would show you would just show the interior of the building is that correct yes and from an architectural uh POS uh position is there anything else you believe is noteworthy or is important to provide to this board and you can take a minute to think I'll count to 60 and then you're you're done now I'm teasing let should take your time and by the way there there's a red area that's shown on the screens and that is what we understand to be the Buckeye easement are you aware of that or that's not within your I'm aware of it but it's not within the the building all right but that is as we understand that colored area to the uh left of the building is what is uh referred to by us and by Mr wisuki as the easan area is that correct yes that's correct right uh what else uh would you like to contribute if anything on the architectural area um the only other thing I I don't think we discussed was the location of the signage uh which is uh oh were you involved in the signage yeah I mean we showed the if we go back to the I apologize we can go back to the elev we can go back to the elevation and we can show the location of the signage and I believe we have a plan that shows that as well the signage would be there okay we went back we went back to the uh the first plan yes okay could you identify what we're talking about in terms of signs yes so if you look at the plan on the right the elevation on the right side that we're showing here the blue area is this is Windows near the entrance to the building the orange area located directly above the Blue Area would be the strip where the signage would be located for the proposed tenant since we don't know the tenant at the time at right at this time we don't know what that signage would necessarily look look like but it would be located in that orange strip located near the the uh entrance to the building and are those signs as far as you understand comply with the Franklin Township ordinance yes Jim can I ask can I ask a question before you you leave the um um previous exhibit the the site plan overview uh c301 um you pointed out the pipeline um I just wanted to confirm you know based on your earlier testimony and the question that Jim asked about um satisfying um you know the conditions that Buckeye would want um obviously pavement and parking and things like that are allowed over fencing and things like that but not not permanent structures so just wanted to ask um your your testimony is that there will be no structure um in impeding access to the pipeline well Mr orini and and I you know I don't always Putt in and answer the questions I think he he can answer the question that there are no structure but I think there is an issue as to its location and the building and the planting so I don't want to say something that's not accurate that's why and and and we can address that as you go bring on your engineering future you know and things like that um I just wanted to make sure that you know that that key thing since we're talking about the the site plan um the other thing I would ask and again you don't have to do it tonight architect can come back I I would like to see kind of holistically what the building looks like in a colorized way on what architectural treatments what um design features um does the applicant propose um you know there there we've all learned through through the number of warehouses that we've heard over the last few years um that there are ways to mitigate the view um certain colorizations or paintings that render the building less visible or more transparent with the surrounding landscape and the buffering that you're showing on the plant um so I mean I would like to delve into that a little more and doesn't again it doesn't have to be tonight and give us the broad brush but I would I would certainly like to see it I'm sure the public would I and I I we thoroughly agreed I'm going to ask a question that either uh our engineer or Mr Clark and make I was at another board not as nice as yours last night uh and the board chairman at that time asked for and I've used them before a sight line analysis that what someone will look like what's it called a linear or something with an L uh line of site no he used a different anyway it's where you they actually do the do you've seen them Mr Clarken standing on the sidewalk and it shows what he's going to see here and then you go back further uh away from the building as if you were a neighbor or on the other side of the street and you take different distances is that something that you think would be helpful to the board yeah I mean I think so I mean I I'm more interested in what the building looks like I mean I have to be transparent with you um I've seen other applicants um that shall be unnamed um present testimony that I would find uh to be put it kindly a stretch that that's what the site would look like um maybe that's what they hope the site will look like maybe that's what they like the public to think the site would look like but it's just not believable okay um you know what the Landscaping will look like in 20 years I mean best of conditions you know um you know it's a tropical rainforest um you know it not it's not believable so I don't know that that would help much but I think you know something that shows how the building would look and a realistic presentation of you know what you're doing to sort of mitigate the py I mean you know where it is um and you know the kind of challenges that presents with um you know suat run right being right next to it um I'd like to see um an orientation and again this may be better for your planner or engineer than your architect of um you know one of my questions would have been what what side did The Bays face um you know are are they are they more towards um a road or an industrial use or they are they more towards residential um you know the these are the kind of things that I'm not getting right now from from your testimony and but would like to hear no and I understand that and I I think that Daniel understands also because it's it's tough for I what I'm looking at I can't disagree with you it doesn't really show me a lot there may be accents or colors or something that the board may find more appropriate uh and that's something that we would listen to I mean some boards like Earth Tones some like grad some so let's uh we we'll get that done I didn't hear any desire for the U sight of line the line of sight so we won't we won't go there I mean I I don't I wouldn't say you you couldn't or shouldn't present it um you know again it it depends on how realistic you're um I I've seen some testimony that I think stretches the boundaries of the believable uh when it comes to that kind of thing you mean yes with the Lush fully blooming flowers uh and the expensive cars in the driveway and uh and all the little uh people coming and going persons all right you know what you're going to do am I right yes thank you Daniel Mr chairman um just a a point of order so the the exhibit the the elevations that are being shown here um this is an exhibit this is different than what was formally submitted to the board so the plans the plans that were submitted to the board the latest revision date is uh March 29 2023 and that has well for example I'm just visually different signage and I don't know if there's any other changes um and we just heard that the signage would comply but the plans that we got officially had a number of signage variances now we've heard there's they're going to comply so I'm not sure what you know if this is an exhibit that differs from what the board has and frankly is differ than differs than from what's on the website we need to understand how that differs from what the board's been uh provided I if I may Mr chairman I'm going to ask I'm going to swear in another Witness this young man seated to my left who's not going to testify will be sworn in and will indicate he has worked on the project he's not the principal engineer but he knows he can answer some of the questions that Mark asked and you may ask with regard to distribution of documents and plans uh so if you can stand please and raise your right hand Sol way to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you got I do name and address for the record please Daniel Reeves re VES from bowler engineering 125 Half Mile Road in Red Bank please that's correct hello hello that's it sorry I'm I'm a project manager at uh at bowler engineering and have been a part of this project the last two years are you a licensed engineer I am state of New Jersey yes for how long you been so licensed uh since 2016 and your license in go in in full force yes it is and you were assisting uh on the preparation of PL so you understand what's going on here is that correct that is correct as well as any of us can okay accepted Mr and as I say I'm not going to offer him for Testimony but just the it'll help the flow are you witness he's a fact witness and not an expert witness very well thank you very much well he's he's an expert in putting documents together but yes he's a fact witness uh go ahead Mr Reeves you heard Mr Healey's uh question let's respond to him correct uh the the site plan drawings as well as the architectural plan that were just presented as exhibits were submitted uh back to the to the board in January earlier this year prior to the prior scheduled meetings um January of 2024 that is correct go ahead they're providing hard copy form how how would they provide it to the board they were provided by uh council's office uh I'm not quite sure on how they were provided to the board to to the record I mean I I can tell you the plans that we reviewed I I have the plan right here is is different than those plans I can only see visually the signage is different um but it's not it's these are not the same plans it's not the same plans that you and what you're saying is is the plans that you saww and reviewed bark the the sign signage would require variances yeah there's uh and now the applicant saying that they don't or they'll comply which means they don't need variances and yet you don't have those plans that show they don't need variances I Ian they they never they did not our requirement is that when you formally submit to the board we need 25 hard copies and and then we need the digital copies to you know provide them to the board we did not get that from the applicant that's all I can tell you Dan what what would it just so we can identify what's what we're doing what was the difference if any between the plans which had been submitted with the applic and you believe were provided for submission in January uh so prior to the previously scheduled meetings uh the these exhibits were prepared for at presentation uh at a meeting just like this uh for this evening uh to for for presentation purposes only they were not submitted ahead for for review but the very minor amendments just to demonstrate more compliance and eliminate some of the signed variances that were noted in Mr Healey's letter well identify exactly to the extent you know now precisely if you will what areas were changed was it just a signage or there other changes on the plans with with respect to in uh the architect can speak a little bit more about this but with respect to the architectural building elevations as we're seeing here the project uh has heard Mr Healey's comments and they've eliminated all the sign variances and only showing two signs one per each roadway Frontage and reduce the signed area to the compliant level of 100 square fet anything else that was changed not to my recollection so your knowledge is that and and your knowledge is that the only changes that were made at that time with the signage is that correct that is correct I mean we can address that again and I will go back and and I'm not I don't I never bail out because everything's always my responsibility uh you know um others touched this but I should have known if you know something wasn't done right so I would suggest that we we go ahead and uh tomorrow we'll check on missing plans and uh provide it immediately to uh Mr Healey and the board it's only the sign right now I think we're talking we think we have a uh a different approach for the board to consider um the board and the staff should have before them as well as the public yes exactly the plans okay that are to be voted on the staff doesn't have those plans all right um and the tone of the testimony has been less than detailed L than what less than detailed certainly we we we anticipate getting more details from from an architect um and what we're going to suggest is that we are finished with the architect and we move on to the next witness and you come back and make sure that Mr Healey and the rest of the staff have the plans all right that you want everybody to look at the board members to look at the other professionals and the public that's exactly what I was going to again Mr Clark and for fear of uh my reputation I mean that was our thoughts were exactly in the same plane I wasn't trying to push something through as I said the reason we're somewhat discombobulated is only because our principal engineer who would have I know for got that spelling uh it wasn't here and you know and mrini abour know it's not the way i' like to proceed I'm not blaming anyone but it it does affect the flow so yes we'll do that uh tomorrow as I say we'll get uh the updated plans for the board and Mr Healey and we'll change our slides we'll be ready uh Mr casner will be back at the next meeting and we'll address those issues and once again I would urge your client to attend a meeting informally with the staff as we have previously requested perhaps what has happened tonight might not have happened if we had had that meeting well I thought that meeting was uh and again it may have been my misunderstanding the meeting that we had discussed and I I don't was for Bucky primarily but there there's been overtures to to have a sit down that's all I'm going to say no no okay now you've made it clear so I will attempt to schedule that uh in the interim we still have time so so procedurally you based on what Jim said let's um let's let's hold the architectural testimony in abeyance I I don't want to open to the public uh to cross your architect at this point in time because obviously we're not looking at plans that are complete or you know exhibits that are complete and um you know it would be a waste of the board's time to cross on those it would be a waste of the Public's time to cross on those so when that those eyes are dotted and te's are crossed then I'll do it so um in the interim um let's hope that that similar um issues have not happened with your traffic testimony we could put Betsy on next if you want I can I can pretty much advise you that in knowing Mr Goan only for a few months I'm being sarcastic she is a she's a quesal I don't know I can't spell it but you you you'll be happy with her maybe Mr Brown or Mr Thomas can help well I I know I'll be happy with Betsy I mean I she's been before this board many times the question is will I be happy with what Betsy's testifying to on the plan well that I can't guarantee that I can no no I'm no fool Mr chairman just sorry just a few more um I think we also heard mention of a mezzanine tonight that's that's also new to me um yes and Darren what that was on my checklist yeah how large is this mezzanine and uh what use is the mezzanine and one of the reasons I ask again it's not reflected on the plans that have been provided the amount of parking that is provided is is based on the the floor plans that we've been provided you you're right now you're providing the exact number that's required if you're adding floor space you may be ask you may be put in a position where you're asking for a parking variance we need those plans we need to review them no that's that's Mark that there absolutely no disagreement uh and we'll have them because I I was not aware uh we'll we'll resolve that one and then and then the other thing is the building height I've had two reviews now where I'm I've been asking the applicant to confirm the building height as measured in our ordinance I have a different interpretation and and my determination stands as the zoning officer I have that The Bu Building height is is over 50 feet when that occurs the setbacks are larger the applicant needs to prove that this building is less than 50 feet as it's measured per our ordinance I've brought this up in two prior reports and I've never received a response at this point I can't advise the board whether the the required set set back what the required setback is or buffer requirement I should say that that will be addressed and hopefully we'll get that meeting that Mr Clarken has recommended and I do have a note here just so I can put get this out of the way but we'll have it in the testimony there is no mezzanine it's uh there is no second floor there is no mezzanine but we'll put that test we'll put that testimony on can I say something wrong Jim Jim yes just try to speak into the mic by itself there is yes okay yeah just try to speak a little bit more into the mic when you're I'll repeat it again there is no mezanine and we will confirm that with architectural testimony when we come back with regard to any revised plans and the sign just for the public if I say there's no mezanine uh there will be no mezzanine because a mezzanine cannot be constructed which would be in violation of any approvals not assuming anything but if the board were to approve and this is the building if mezzanine is not part of it there ain't no mezzanine so uh I just want that understood for the public so so Jim you know I I I know this is not the way you operate I I know what you brought to the board before in its quality um you know you're being asked to make a gourmet meal with weak old leftovers I mean I I feel for you on that but I mean a mezanine no mezanine no I agree I mean what is to be believed I I hesitate to even put any more witnesses on because I don't know if we're looking at the right plans do we put Betsy on well I am no I I want to finish what we were discussing right okay so let's let's shut this down and then we'll we'll go to Betsy and and hope that we don't find any more glaring inconsistencies okay I bet you Dolan please miss Dolan after all these Al accolades I just hope that you stand up to the job raise your right hand s me swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you got yes I do name and address please Elizabeth Dolan Dolan and Dean Consulting Engineers 181 one West High Street in Somerville New Jersey Mr orini and Mr Clarken do I have to qualify her I I don't think so everything is still as testified previously before this board and other boards have your credentials changed in any way they have not thank you all right just to the licensed engineer and this with expertise and traffic that's correct yes thank you all right bety uh you did prepare a report for the board uh dated the January 2022 uh June 1422 yes uh I can't afford any more mistakes on my part so I'm being very careful uh the I'm just going to you're qualifi you've been qualified you know I don't do a Q&A especially with you uh you did an analysis of this project in terms of traffic and parking uh is that correct that's correct and I think you may have addressed one variance but I don't want to put you under the gun because the engineer is not here uh did you address any variances or were you just going with the parking and traffic um I did not address any variances in my report uh I did address the overall traffic characteristics and the parking requirements from my perspective as well as the uh ordinance requirements all right go right ahead sure so again the report is dated June 14 2022 and at that time the building um proposed on site was larger than the current proposed uh we were looking at 128,648 Square ft from a traffic engineering perspective uh particularly for for those folks in the audience um the traffic estimates or peak hour estimates that this Wearhouse will generate are based on the size of the building if the size had increased I would have revised my report but because the building area has decreased since the preparation of the traffic study there's no need to revise the analysis or the the findings because uh the wherehouse trip generation in general is low uh and now that we've reduced the building slightly uh the estimates presented are reduced slightly so you've seen from the site plan that access is proposed on Old new Bruns yes that's correct and that is c301 by bowler yes so uh the site plan that's up on the screen c301 shows two points of access on Old New Brunswick Road um and the building area of 102733254 estimate traffic volumes for proposed development based on studies of similar developments performed by Traffic Engineers and submitted to The Institute of Transportation Engineers so the Institute of Transportation Engineers or it has a publication entitled trip generation manual and that manual provides trip rates for different types of land uses including warehouses and the trip rates for warehouses are based on traffic counts performed at warehouses and then trip rates per thousand square feet of building area are calculated published by the it and those are the numbers that we use to estimate driveway volumes for in this case a proposed hund we'll call it3 approximately th000 square foot Warehouse uh this is the standard methodology it's the required methodology uh that NJ doot and the counties throughout New Jersey require for trip estimating um and the uh trip generation manual is updated um regularly every few years we're currently up to the 11th Edition which came out about two years ago so the report that's been submitted calculates 30 entering and nine exiting trips during the one busiest hour in the morning and that's typically somewhere between 7 and 9 in the morning so that's a total of 39 driveway movements at the end of the day day 12 entering 30 exiting or a total of 42 trips again that's the one busiest hour throughout the day the driveway volumes are comparable to those peak hour volumes and usually lower than those peak hour volumes um as I said 39 morning peak hour trips 42 evening peak hour trips for the originally proposed 128,000 and change building uh those numbers go down to um 36 or a reduction in three trips of three trips for the morning peak hour uh and from 42 to 39 also three fewer trips it's really insignificant um what I want to point out for the uh board and public is that this level of trip generation is not considered significant significant is uh defined in our state highway access management code as 100 or more trips in one hour and that comes again from it studies and Publications that indicate that at 100 or more trips in one hour a new development is likely to create a measurable and potentially negative traffic impact the number of trips that we're looking at in any one hour is well below uh what's considered significant and I would point out because this is a warehouse it also allows us to refine these trip estimates to calc at the number of truck trips that are anticipated in an hour so again going to that morning peak hour one entering one exiting truck in the in one hour in the evening peak hour two entering one exiting for a total of three truck trips in one hour this Warehouse uh whether it's 128,000 or 102,000 Square ft is not a um what is typically considered a fulfillment center or something like Amazon those buildings are classified as uh High Cube warehousing by it they are typically several hundred, feet to over a million square feet those uh fulfillment centers have um what's called cross docking or uh docks on both sides of the building so that incoming Goods can be uh brought in on one side and outgoing uh materials uh on the other side uh multiple docks on both Sid of the building and substantial um parking for employees to accommodate shift overlap this is only 100,000 uh Square F feet and change in ch and change and is not going to uh satisfy uh the needs of something like Amazon so the idea that this is going to be an intensive uh truck operation is is not true and we've also performed our own independent research at different uh warehouses throughout New Jersey and in eastern Pennsylvania and those numbers have come in right in line with the it numbers uh so this is not a high generator and while not everyone here may know but I was actually a part of it that and and if you've been to the site you know that there's a partial construction of a shopping center uh there was a 20 I'm sorry 5,252 ft shopping center uh that was approved I believe in 2015 and the for example during the evening peak hour we were estimating 133 entering 144 exiting for a total of 277 trips in one hour and that was studied uh uh with a full traffic engineering evaluation we counted the the traffic volumes um at that time the shop right was new the shopping center next door was new uh we had done um a lot of uh traffic engineering work to make sure that the new signals were going to accommodate this activity and so that was a a much more intensive uh land use from a traffic engineering perspective uh generating something over 200 uh more trips in a peak hour than what this modest and somewhat small Warehouse would generate so from a traffic perspective um I don't find this to be uh a significant generator and again significant does have a definition in the uh in the access code here in New Jersey and also in the it uh Transportation world uh so we're looking at a somewhat modest building size with modest trip generation and one or two trucks uh in an hour using the driveway so from a traffic impact perspective we're looking at lower trip trip generation uh then was associated with the prior approval and um that brings us then to the second part of my report which is the parking assessment um Again The Institute of Transportation Engineers has a parking generation manual and we're up to the sixth edition whereas when this 2022 report of mine was submitted we were using the fifth edition so um I know the ordinance requires the calculation of office parking in addition to Warehouse parking it's a it's a a cumulative calculation it te recognizes that warehouses do include a modest amount of office space um and so their calculations are based on the gross building area and based on the gross building area and I rounded up to 103,000 they would indicate we'd need 38 or 39 parking spaces uh and so the plan that's before you has 53 spaces I believe the requirement is 54 uh and if we get some EV credits we exceed the that requirement uh there is no uh specific requirement for the number of loading docks um that is usually based more on the size of the building and as you heard from our architect there are 10 uh building uh sorry 10 bay doors proposed um on the side of the building and the um engineer will be discussing the design of the plan for tractor trailers uh but we're not expecting uh a lot of large tractor trailers again because this is a smaller Warehouse building uh but I'll leave that to the engineer to further discuss uh this is a traditional what I would call uh SPEC Building there is no tenant as the architect had indicated but we've provided an ample parking Supply to accommodate uh any anticipated needs by potential tenants uh and otherwise uh I know there was a question about the variances it's not in my report uh but there is a requirement in town for a 26t two-way circulation aisle and on the right side of the plan again looking at the um the rendered site plan that's up on the board on the right side are the passenger vehicle parking spaces accessed by a 24t two-way circulation aisle 26 is required uh 24 is commonly used that is again the industry um accepted design uh Dimension and is endorsed by The Institute of Transportation engine engers uh 24 ft is what's needed for passenger vehicles to enter and exit 90° parking spaces um and that's typically the dimension that is used and I I believe we can certainly feel comfortable uh with that variance do you want to say something was going to ask you two things but I was waiting for you to take a breath U you you use the words EV credit again for the uh for the public would you please tell us what EV credit is sure uh electric vehicle um that the um New Jersey Law uh requires that uh new plans provide spaces that are capable of charging electric vehicles and again I'll leave the specifics uh not only of the EV or electronic vehicle charging spaces to the engineer but also the handicap spaces but those uh are included in the supply that's proposed and when you provide an EV space the statute gives credit of two spaces there's a formula with regard to an EV space is that correct that is correct yes and you've also mentioned a number of times the it both as to uh traffic generation and parking generation can you just I want I'd like you expand a little bit on what the it is I mean who is involved in it what it is so that the audience and the board understand it sure the it is the inst Institute of Transportation engineers it's a professional association uh that I'm a member and uh most of my colleagues in New Jersey are members and the IT collects uh data specifically as we're discussing tonight for uh trip generation purposes and parking demand purposes uh publishes this information so that it's an available resource for Traffic Engineers and planners to use in forecasting uh anticipated traffic volumes on a driveway uh from a any number of different uses and anticipated parking demands so it's a professional society that publishes many um books and uh papers regarding Transportation activity not just associated with those that we're talking about tonight but things like uh school walk to walking to school safely uh roundabouts and and different Transportation um uh features that you would see in highways or Guidance with regard to Land Development and I the question I have and I may use the wrong word the organization the organization is not Pander to any specific group I.E developers municipalities uh Municipal Engineers private Engineers am I correct it right it's a professional association uh that provides guidance uh and Publications with regard to uh Land Development and traffic requirements traffic traffic design and safety uh okay any else that we have that I've omitted that you want to say no that takes me through my report um I know there was one other comment about the um the driveway on uh again the the plan that's on the board it's the driveway on the left side of the building that's been designed for trucks uh there was a comment about the driveway design not accommodating uh free moving trucks in in a in two-way circulation and I would just point out that again I I indicated one to two uh entering and exiting trucks in the course of 1 hour uh typically we don't overdesign driveways or drive aisles uh to accommodate trucks we often uh have for example on state highways mountable uh triangular Islands that'll allow the trucks to uh travel over them and sweep into the oncoming Lane uh to make the entry and exit Maneuvers so unless there's excessive pavement um this is the traditional treatment and I think that for the low volume of trucks that are anticipated and certainly trucks can see one another um from my perspective and uh I don't see the need to provide a wider driveway uh simply for the occasional possible chance again this is not a heavy uh trip generator and it's certainly not a heavy truck generator uh so that would be my comment with respect to one of the other review items in the January 17th 20 24 CME letter um I'll open it up to the board for questions and Darren I know that you might have some so maybe we'll start we'll start with you and then U any any other board questions and then I think once we're done with board questions looking at the time um and and knowing um knowing the audience and and and the amount of people here we'll take a five minute bio break and then we'll open it up to the public for uh cross on on Betsy and then um depending on how long that takes I'd like to hear from a buckeye tonight um and and that'll that'll probably be our night um so with that I'll turn it over you thank you chairman okay so so I know you just touched on the uh driveway and if you do look in my in my review letter the recommendation is not to widen the driveway the and I know you're not the engineer who designed the layout but since you touched on it the driveway is an S driveway and that's what's triggering this as being a oneway in or one way out no I mean you what the driveway really needed to do is be either straightened out or the building needs to be smaller as my recommendation so I don't just for the board's e ocate if a truck is leaving this site and there's 10 loading docks a another truck coming in from old runs is going to have to sit on the in the roadway and wait for that full movement to be done so that's the concern I'd have there and I know it's limited amount of truck traffic but to say that there's not going to be a truck entering entering is uh possible but there's also the possibility that they can so I think the site needs to Accord to uh address that accordingly sure and I'll I'll defer that to the site engineer okay I only brought it up because you mentioned it of course all right now my next question was in the traffic report it doesn't State what direction the truck traffic is coming from is it coming from the Elizabeth side or the old new Bruns side or new Bruns side this is a pretty interesting question uh and the the the truck route that's posted out there is to and from Elizabeth Avenue but the truck route is that's through an easement or we would need an easement um and the balance of old New Brunswick I got to get my direction straight because North is to the bottom on the exhibit that's before the board um but as you approach traveling I'll call it Southeast on New Brunswick from Elizabeth Avenue once you get past the main driveways for shoppr and the um opposite shopping center it's posted with a weight limit and that's the same weight limit that's posted um at New Brunswick and the signalize intersection on Elizabeth so technically based on the postings the truck should be coming to and from Elizabeth Avenue and that may require us to obtain an easement uh because that's not a public right of way sure and just for the board's aware uh that portion in front of the shop rate is actually a private roadway it's not a roadway that's owned by the township so what I also wanted to mentions I did look at the road WIP coming in there are pedestrian speed homps that come up in that area and I don't know if that's conducive to Bringing truck traffic through that direction so I would like to just defer to you on your expert opinion on that yeah it's it it's it's interesting because um again in in preparing for um tonight I I Revisited a lot of the adjacent roadway ways and as you travel Southbound on Davidson once you get to pierce the trucks are not permitted if you're on Cedar Grove Lane um it says trucks no turns onto New Brunswick so the truck route that's designated for any of these properties and if it's still hers or hairs uh adjacent to uh shoppr that those trucks would be entering and exiting on um the Elizabeth Avenue Corridor and I agree with you that the um the speed hump or the speed table is there with a four-way stop um and I honestly I was involved in the shopping center across the street from shoppr and then of course the shopping center here but I don't remember all the details on the development of that that speed table okay I guess the next question might go to it's it might go to Jim I'm not sure here have you contacted the owner of that roadway to see if you will get access through that route yet thank you Chris is the one who always can she makes sure no we have not last question is under the assumption that potentially you have to come in through old New Brunswick has that intersection of old New Brunswick in new Bruns been evaluated for truck turning movements um I I have not and I would have to ask the site engineer I'll wait for him around that one sure thank you yes yes b a couple questions uh did you evaluate either intersection at the that this uh facility is involved with for instance you spoke a little bit about Elizabeth Avenue how about the other side New Brunswick Road and Old New Brunswick Road I I think that's what Darren may have just been asking about the unsignalized intersection where no the signalized intersection is is Elizabeth Avenue it's it's time to get out of the it manual and now let's base things on real accounts yeah uh we have as part of this application we have not performed updated traffic counts or uh level of service calcul can I ask why not because you yourself just went through the whole list of options and your client has has no real legitimate option to his site he has load limits on New Brunswick Road and you're not sure about the inter ction on Elizabeth Avenue so why wouldn't you analyze both of those things I would think if you if you look at Darren brought up the the intersection at Elizabeth Avenue with the light has to be evaluated because I'm not sure trucks can make a left turn into there coming off Elizabeth Avenue uh the other side of this project going out into New Brunswick Road the shape and the curvature of the streets involved would make it virtually impossible for a truck to make a left turn or a right turn and stay anywhere near in lane and it's all it's already de demonstrated on numerous occasions like another intersection we discussed a few weeks ago that it's got some dangerous points uh already people have been asking uh to investigate getting a uh a traffic signal there uh I just don't understand you know the it manual gives you all the numbers based on 100,000 square feet but as a board we have to consider beyond that there's no tenant and isn't it true that what whatever use comes in there is going to affect the traffic it may these are estimates no no no not it may will it or will it not affect the use of the roads and the traffic circulation whatever use be it larger or smaller as a board we don't know which it's going to be so we need to prepare probably for the worst uh you have a private you know this this application is going south you come in here you don't have you don't have the proper paperwork we don't have a plan you didn't do a study on the only two entrances that get people off the public roads and into this facility so we have no idea what effect that's going to happen even if it's only one truck an hour we don't know as you just agreed it could be more than that because we don't know what the use is eventually going to be and you didn't even bother to get in I don't know if you investigated it but I would think in an application like this I would be in here W with a signed agreement with the private driveway all right you don't even know if you have use of that I have some real reservations about the fact and since especially since you were working as you mentioned on the other two facilities they they were Dei devised to be pedestrian friendly you have uh brick crosswalks you have sidewalks people were supposed to be able to park shop right and go across the driveway into the other shopping center and walk if they wanted to they're supposed to be able to cross Elizabeth Avenue the board when we approved that project recommended that the county leave that light on Elizabeth Avenue where that driveway was specifically for these purposes both of the lanes in that driveway if you visited there today or yesterday are designated bike Lanes I'm not sure any number of 18 wheelers fit in with designated bike Lanes coming with coming between between two shopping centers where people are coming there to make decision you have four three or four driveways along that private driveway entering shop right and the other side so it isn't just that it's a a little p driveway that these trucks have to maneuver around I can't believe there isn't a more little more comprehensive and detailed study on on the use and the interaction between these different vehicles I I think you all have a lot of work to do for this I'm sorry I didn't mean to get that far but no I mean it it echoes exactly what I think I mean your your traffic circulation plan is based on access that you don't know you have um moreover you know as Bob pointed out and I won't I mean I'll just reemphasize it um you know that road is intended uh because of the um multi-use Center across from shop right for pedestrian access it's got brick it's got speed humps um no they're going to be destroyed um and and you don't see the the shoppr trucks don't come that way right they come right off of Elizabeth and in back they don't have to go down that way um yours yours do and and I mean the only alternative would be to bring them bring them down New Brunswick um and and and or through Elizabeth which you can't because you're too close to the intersection it's just going to be a death trap so I mean for this plan to work you know you don't even have access so I mean I I don't know I don't know what you expect to kind of do with that uh us us as a board to do with that um you know not prejudging anything but I'm just saying I I don't know how we can evaluate the application fairly when what you're asking for you don't even know that you can do Mr orini uh can't hear you I put the thank you I I often forget to put the button on Mr orini part of the process because I'm not arguing with anything is for us to listen on a project of this type uh and also to I think we'll have our meeting with Mr Clarkin and whatever staff he believes is appropriate but part of the process is is we listen to the board the board comments as Mr Thomas did and other people will and to the extent there are shortfalls we don't just uh put our tail between our legs and go home we're going to we'll be back at the next meeting uh no I get that but you know it's important to hear you it's important to hear everybody you're you're in the line of fire Jim and I just I feel bad for you um but I'm a big boy but you know as Mark said and as Jim said if these meetings had happened this is not rocket science I mean we're all picking this up with very little detail because we know the community in which we live and it all could have been worked out ahead of time had these meetings which the applicant did not take I mean let me translate the applicant refused because they were offered multiple times could have been done so my advice would be you you need to go to the applicant and say um you know you you've got to meet with staff knows all this they would have told this and you know we're I mean I don't I I'll be frank we're wasting our time here um well I like the recommendation that our traffic our traffic expert made where he recommended we not even hear this application until certain changes are are made and you are correct as far as I'm concerned we are until there's some changes made until you can affect changes in the highways around the the streets and the intersections around this facility we we are wasting our time do I disagree Mr [Applause] Thomas the answer is that we are here T night uh you may often and look I'm I'm a a big boy this is I'm I'm used to getting uh either accolades or criticism and that's part of the job and I listen to people but to the extent there are other comments from the board or the public and we're here already I think it's important for us to hear those with regard to probably the most important topic uh of the application that being traffic so uh it's not a waste to hear what this board has to say and to hear what the the public says hoping it's not dup dup it's not rep repetitious that's all I'm saying no I but you're you know the I have no problem with letting the public speak at least after the bio break but or at least cross cross Betsy um again with the architect that there was no point in doing that but it is a waste of time I'll tell you why because it's a plan you don't know you can execute and so the public is going to come up here and say well you know it's probably not a great idea to like bring tractor trailers down a a roadway that you don't own or don't have access to with speed bumps on it that they're going to destroy and go bang bang bang bang as they go down the street you don't need the public to tell you that you don't need us to tell you that it's common sense so that's why I say it's a waste of time because your your plan by necessity either has to change or you have to acquire Eastman so I I don't understand how you can say that we're we're we're actually doing something that could potentially um you know be the way the plan um is is finalized when you can you your testimony was you didn't you didn't have access to the road and even if you did have access to the road I doubt that's what the board would recommend how you would come in it's could becoming a sexist or so you know what they say behind every man is a better woman and I consulted with with Betsy uh and um I think that we would you know I can just talk to my client for why don't you talk to and I think that we would accept follow your advice uh and uh not waste the Public's time sitting here and feeling that they're giving empty gestures that no one is going to listen to uh and the answer may be uh that we carry it till the May 1st date uh under the understanding that within a week or so uh we know where we're going to be uh for that so that the board may want to use that date for something else but in the interim I would be on the phone tomorrow uh with Mr Clark and to get some dates for Buckeye and uh whatever staff whether wants Darren and and Mark whoever we wants and we would come in make it a priority and sit down and and try and get your answers yeah and and you know I just again I defer to staff um but what's the uh what's the saying Port planning on your report doesn't consist of doesn't uh uh precipitate a crisis on ours they need to be able to have the plans review them and give us their report based on these revised plans um I don't know when that will happen or how soon it can happen but and I again I'll defer to Mark and Darren and staff on that um but again is there a contemplation and maybe Mr Clarken or you can answer that the board is going to uh bring in a traffic consultant either from CME or from another source you know we can sit here and suggest Consultants up the Gazoo the only suggestion and and I know it's mine so I'm Prejudice that I think is really worth it is for you to withdraw without prejudice and don't come back until you come back with a different application with all the papers submitted with all the staff meetings and everything else all we're doing all we're doing now is your suggestion let's bring in another I did not I did not rich Thomas that's not what I said uh I did not J you have to use the mic we have a deadline for Action I don't think you can clean this up in time for it to meet a deadline I thinkk you miss I did not invite the board to have one I just asked a question whether there was going to be one that was my question next scheduled meeting was going to be May 1st sound not going to have time to get plans to the staff 10 days in advance you need to use the mics people folks even if you're exiting please please be quiet the board board proceedings are still going on we don't need revised plans except for confirm we do not need revised plans except for the issue of the signage as we understand it we have to make a decision we have to make a decision uh whether or not we have time to provide some amended traffic information that's all I was saying we're not I will tell you the board tonight I'm not prepared to say oh we're going to withdraw the application and start a new because there are a number of legal issues that follow that decision that I'm not prepared to make without some consultation uh so my recommendation is within the uh 24 to 48 hours uh I will try to have a meeting or set schedule one with Mr Clarken I will get information from Betsy as to this issue that has come up with regard to access and we'll know within uh by next Wednesday uh where we're going but it also isn't just traffic we haven't actually determined what the height of the building is which determines what the setbacks are and that determines what variances we're talking about and if the building you decide suddenly has to be lowered because it gives you different setback uh requirements to meet then that does require a new plan no if you if you lower the height only if you raise the height are you affecting set pack not lowering that's something we can deal with with uh with staff because I I didn't hear Mark well I don't want to put words in his his his mouth I mean I don't know whether there's a definitive statement that there is no understanding of height yes Mr Clark let's let's have the meeting and then then a determination will be made whether revised plans are essential or not I agree with you can you just get me uh Mr Clark and I never direct you I always request if you could get me tomorrow after tonight uh some dates next week uh for uh a meeting with Buckey and the necessary staff people I will make sure that regardless of the day we will be there we'll try and do it at the break we will try and do it at the break tonight do well I would stop and get the meeting stuff done and you know what was the point I mean yeah and I mean again I I just think we're we're spinning our Wheels tonight I think I think the best thing would do would be to um you know continue to carry exactly um and and and to you know maybe have a come to Jesus moment with your client who who needs to meet with their staff because I mean th this is not rocket science we could have worked this out or it could have at least been discussed and then the applicant's plan is the applicant's plan and it's ours to judge but the problem is we can't judge and that that's the issue I have and and you know so yeah I would I would I would do that and and Mr wisuki is okay um you know I think that again maybe his comments may be colored by the fact that what the plan final plans look like and all of the setbacks and various things um to just to just to just carry you have the right word carry yeah yeah I I want to kind that they hang around the neck Christine um so the recommendation is that we stop now I would cuz I mean I don't I'm looking and and I don't know and they're going to make see my mic that they want me either that that would your suggestion or Mr Clarken suggestion yeah I agree with that was the one to be taken that we don't need the break uh we'll we'll end our testimony tonight uh and we'll uh make some decisions the beginning of next week that would be great I mean I I just want to know what I mean the board has a right to know what they're voting on and and I don't know that we can either NE of us Jim can sit here tonight and say yeah we know that um and that that's that's a that's a real problem so yeah well we know that we're missing we're missing engineering and we're missing planning and we're getting some feedback uh cross toan that well I just we can recognize uh Mr wisuki Council Mr chairman uh however ever the board wants to handle the application we're perfectly fine with what I would request because regardless of whatever the new plan uh that may come before the board looks like our concerns will still be the same uh there's certain language in the easement that limits what can be done above where the pipelines are correct I think it would be beneficial for the board to at least hear from our engineer to describe what the concerns are and that way the applicant and their team can take those concerns into consideration but at least it'll be known on what those concerns are John I I think it's best handled with the staff meeting all right let's let's do it that way all right and I you're an integral part of that all right as I said we'll follow the board's uh recommendation here I just wanted to make sure the board understood what and you know we we we we want to hear all your concerns but we o want to hear them based on what we're actually going to be considering as the final plan and and and and and what we'll ultimately be voting on so to do that again I think the staff meeting is is best where the applicant all their experts the township and staff and and and you representing Buckeye um all get in the same room which again has been offered to the client multiple times without taking no objection on our part okay yeah and and look the only answer I have to that uh as I say and I'm not trying to be a hero you don't have to answer it huh you don't have to answer it no no as JY knows Clarkin my position is I don't care who makes a mistake in my office the buck stops here and I never throw anyone under the bus I have to just say I personally was not aware whether someone else in the office be it Peter or not was aware of a the schedule or a meeting I knew we tried to get one last week and I was disappointed from my side that I didn't get a quick response so we will work with the with the staff yeah now is keep as I can this application is going to be carried to May 1 of 20124 without any further notice or publication this is your only notice that the meeting will be held on May 1 at this location at 7:30 p.m. you will not get anything in the mail okay with that we uh we're done for tonight so um make a motion to adjourn second a second second second all in favor I