PL 1975 chapter 231 adequate notice of this regular meeting of the planning board of the township has been provided if everyone could please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag flag of the United States of America to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all okay so before we get started um Robert Lort Sammy sioban Jennifer ragnow Charles Brown and Rebecca Hilbert all asked to be excused this evening councilman M Barson here theor Chase here Mah Rafi here Robert Thomas Mark Dancy here chairman arini here um we have one resolution tonight that was the subject of a minor subdivision committee meeting um I'm Gupta pln 2323 um I will let uh Mark summarize the findings of the minor subcommittee yes so as the chairman said this was for a minor subdivision um on Gerard Avenue it's an R15 Zone both Lots were in excess of the minimum lot size um both exceeded the minimum lot width and there weren't any variances requested so it was under the jurisdiction of the minor subdivision committee which met uh in between um the last meeting in this meeting uh the minor subdivision committee approved it uh and we have a resolution for the minor subdivision committee's uh uh consideration tonight basically there were two conditions one being full compliance with the TRC report and the other being that the plan submitted shall be consistent with that reflected on the subdivision in terms of uh compliance with chapter 222 trees the limit of uh disturbance on each lot and the planting of Street trees they basically made a commitment to disturb only a certain amount of uh of the site on their plans and the committee wants them to stick to that that's the resolution that's before the minor subdivision committee for their consideration and the only two people who can vote as yourself and Mr Thomas okay so I will make a motion to approve I'll second okay Bob Thomas and chairman Rini yes we're going to go back and look at the minutes from 65 only councilman and Barson cannot vote on those and do we have any comments or Corrections on those minutes Ted already gave them to us so we corrected them okay so um I'll make a motion to approve June 5th second theor Chase yes Mah Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Mark Dany yes and chairman arini yes we have one discussion item we relief of conditions for Birch Glen LLC um formerly known as Sycamore developers this is the 32 rot subdivision off of uh Cedar Grove behind rest's gas station um similar to the one you heard for Sterling Point um there's a thematic uh consistency here which is uh the Water permit and the need to put three houses on Wells um there is a minor difference between Sterling but essentially it boils down to you know when the township gets um the permit renewed for water capacity and Vince is here to explain more of that or maybe Peter good even good evening Mr chairman Peter Lanford appearing on behalf of the applicant I will let Mr dominc explain the situation I know he was here last month and it is essentially the same uh situation that we had a month ago yeah if you remember last month I I explained that the the former rest of property bur Glenn uh we we have a master permit with with water that we only allowed to allocate a certain amount of gallon for for the development because of that 29 of the 32 homes we can allow to be hooked up immediately and it may be that temporarily they may three may have to be in Wells most likely not because by the time that they're built they won't need to be we'll have the master permit but Township Council passed an ordinance they asked for your recommendation last month they passed that ordinance the uh the developer will be required uh within one year of the master permit being issued to con connect to public water if in the unlikelihood that they have to put the wells in so the situation hasn't changed this is the formal relief of conditions that you must approve because we can't allow them to move forward with the water until the planning board approves the revised site plan the relief of conditions thanks Vince any questions from the board it's three different Wells right Vince it's not just one three individual Wells for three houses uh which we would then abandon uh for residential use when the public water becomes available and what do you need from us a resolution or you just need to make a motion to approve the to allow the three Wells cu the original approval was that the 32 units would all be on public water so the the motion would be to allow three of the units to have wells until such time as public water becomes available second it it represents a modification to a condition okay so we can go ahead with those motions okay uh councilman andaron yes Theodor Chase yeah Mah Mahir Rafi yes Robert Thomas Mark Dancy yes and chairman arini yes you want me to read about Onyx now or no no I'll I'll do Onyx um so that's been carried um so this is the proposed Warehouse across from shop right on Old New Brunswick um carried to September 4th 20124 um I've made it clear that we're not going to hear that application until they can demonstrate that they have access through old New Brunswick Road because otherwise they don't really have a plan so um we'll see what happens by September 4th um I wouldn't exactly put it in pen on your calendars but they're they're I'm just not going to hear it until they have access because there's no point and just so for the record as well Mike um there has been a notice placed at Route 27 this morning by myself okay just in case someone I mean we've put it on the agenda it's been on out on on all of our sites but there is a notice on the door as well excellent thanks Christine I I just want is your com is your mic on I I think we should consider whether they need a an agreement also with Buckey pipeline there there's an issue with the dirt that has to be bought in um well there's an issue and it hasn't to my knowledge uh been agreed on but that affects has a huge effect on site plan yeah I think I I would suggest I mean I think the applicant was aware of those issues when it was brought up at the hearing so I'd suggest we see if they come back in September and those issues were raised and they'll have to address them at that hearing okay so the one hearing we do have tonight is Macedonia Church of God in Christ uh pn2 0022 this was before the planning board in October of 2022 you have those minutes uh and in brief um it was carried um so they could um look at some of the parking comments that the board had they are now back and so I'll turn it over to Peter good evening Mr chairman members of the board Peter Lanford appearing on behalf of the applicant um you're you're correct that the last time we were here was in October of 22 uh actually as I started to prepare for this application and look through everything uh this application was actually filed in 2017 uh so we've been at this for now seven years uh originally when we filed the application uh this property was in the Redevelopment area and churches were not a permitted use in the Redevelopment zone so we couldn't make an application and had to have the Redevelopment plan amended so that we can come before this board to get approval um in 2022 at the hearing in October and I'll try to be brief but just go through it uh we presented the testimony of uh Ron uh Mr Sadowski who was our site engineer uh and I have Mr O'Brien who's going to uh sort of as I'm talking uh put up the exhibits that were put into evidence in 2022 uh the first one being the existing conditions plan which basically shows the church on the right hand side of the property uh and there are to the right of the church 10 parking spaces which are all the parking spaces that we currently have and then there is a structure to the left of the church um this church was constructed in 1948 uh uh it is in in pretty bad shape uh and it also does not adequately address the needs of the congregation uh there is a sanctuary and uh pews for church service but there is no other facilities available for pastor's office for meeting rooms or anything of that nature um what we did do is is uh decided the church decided to tear down the existing church and construct a new church uh to the far left side of the property if Mr O'Brien can sort of that and that is this the site plan uh that was presented at the last hearing uh uh that's that's actually perfect Mr O'Brien which shows the the church being located to the left side of the property uh the construction of a new parking lot with 38 parking spaces uh the church itself uh was designed by Mr Johnson who is our architect he's also here this evening in case the board has any questions but he did testify at the last hearing and his testimony was that there is on the main level of the of the church a sanctuary uh and a balcony and the the total seaing capacity at that level um is basically 303 people maximum uh there is also a lower level which would be a area that's going to be used for classrooms for the children and also uh for Fellowship for Gathering of the uh members of the congregation after services at that hearing uh one of the trustees of the church or pay testified concerning the operations of the church and how the church operated then and how it'll operate in the future unfortunately since the time she testified she has passed away uh and uh that was part of the reason also we took us a while to get back here because we needed to have the church uh trustees reconvene to look at all sorts of Alternatives that the board requested but the re the the church has services on Sunday Sunday uh they have Sunday school at 10:00 a.m. and then the church service is between 11: and 300 p.m. they do have some uh weekday evening activities um and those weekday activities are Tuesday through Friday Miss Payne testified that the average attendance was between 40 and 60 uh people some of those were Bible studies some of them were uh meetings but that that was the average attendance so there would be church services on Sunday and then small groups that would gather on Mondays I'm sorry uh Tuesdays through Fridays uh at the end of the meeting uh there were discussions uh between board members and and the applicant concerning ways that we can obtain additional parking uh one of the things and if if Mr o'ri could just scroll that up a little bit uh the other way uh there was a there was a indication that we should inquire that the two lots behind the church uh we should look at it trying to acquire them from the township uh the township does own those two lots uh we did reach out to the township the problem was that the township uh did not want to sell the Lots well first of all they couldn't sell them to us they would have to put them up for a public sale which meant that somebody could buy those lots and put a house on there and the Township didn't want to do that so they did not want to sell the two lots uh there was also a discussion uh if the board recalls councilman right lives adjacent to this property uh to the left of it uh he owns uh an undeveloped strip which was formerly camner Avenue which was vacated by the township uh and he indicated he would be willing to uh uh talk to us to see if there could be an accommodation to help us create additional parking our site engineer looked at it and basically there are some Utilities in there and that strip doesn't give us any additional parking so there is no additional parking spaces that are available uh so we're coming back to you tonight with the site plan being unchanged however there are some changes uh some addition information which I think is relevant in the board making their decision as to uh whether we can adequately Supply parking for uh the church uh as it goes forward in the future uh one of the other things I failed to mention uh we discussed at the last hearing that across the street uh and I I can't read the street unfortunately across Booker is uh part of the RPM uh development and the church had owned property uh where RPM is currently located the church sold the land to RPM so that they can proceed with their Redevelopment project as part of that sale the RPM agreed to provide to us 25 parking spaces to be available on Sundays uh to be used if they become necessary so in addition to now the new plan which has 38 parking spaces we have an additional 25 spaces uh across Booker uh on top of that in December of this year we reached an agreement uh with PNC Bank which is on uh Franklin Boulevard uh to allow us to park there on Sundays uh I have a copy of the sign license agreement and I would put that into Mark that into evidence I don't know what number we were on for exhibits during the first hearing so long ago I I agree and perhaps we just mark it A1 with today's date I think that makes it easier and and Peter do you have a similar agreement executed with RPM uh there was it was a contractual agreement I can provide to the Border get one I do represent RPM uh I think you that's a perfectly legitimate question and I think if the board would approve this matter you would want an agreement with with RPM confirming uh their obligation I do have the contract of sale with me I didn't represent either of these parties when this transaction was done back in 2007 but the contract of sale clearly indic Ates that when the church sold to RPM that RPM would provide us 25 parking spaces if you want to see the contract I can give it to you but I can get you an AG as long as there's something know written yes there is the the agreement with the bank does that uh allow for an accessible walkable uh route to the church it it is somewhat difficult uh and and our thought was that if first of all you hear the testimony of our traffic consultant uh we probably will rarely need it but if we needed it what we would probably do then is is first of all we would have to direct the people to park there and then we would shuttle them over to the church rather than have them walk because it is a little secure with us Pete could you describe the term of the agreement with the bank the term of the agreement with the bank it's a license agreement which allows us to use the parking lot only on Sundays uh it's a year-to-year agreement which automatically renews uh on its own uh if we didn't need it we would have a right to terminated if the bank sold the property or something they would have the right to terminate it uh but as long as PNC is there uh the the term of it would be an automatically renew able agreement on a year-to-year basis paragraph two of the agreement indicates that except that the right to terminate uh is with the bank at any time on 30 days no yes for any reason or no reason yeah okay thank you Peter just one more one more the just the agreement with RPM so when rpn when that development was built there was some type of agreement with the church and they Incorporated those 25 spaces into their site plan is that I don't know what was incorporated into their site plan because I did not represent them at that time uh but the agreement was there are 25 surface parking spaces available adjacent or across the street from the church and that we would have the right to use them on Sundays and do you know do you happen to know if is is is that above and beyond the parking requirements for that site are they being shared it it would be shared and your ordinance provides for that uh section 11298 indicates that if there are uh uses such as churches or theaters or other things uh that primarily operate on evenings or weekends uh that they have a right to have a shared parking Arrangement uh with other facilities that would not be necessarily operational at that time this is primarily a an apartment complex there's also retail there okay I mean I do have inform information to present to the board that there are 25 spaces available at that time on Sundays uh I think M yeah Mr Troutman could testify to that okay I have a question uh could you clarify the street that's cner is it does it flow through or is it a uh is is there now is there an obstruction there C go the other way Kevin you're going the church will be yeah that's camner at one time it went all the way through to Franklin or to Fuller Street at some point probably 10 12 years ago I don't recall when the township vacated that portion where you see the line uh across uh camer Street they vacated that portion of the street and that property was conveyed uh to the adjoining property owner uh Mr Wright so camner Avenue dead ends uh before our property and then it continues on on the other side on the other side of Fuller continues on uh I'm not I'm not sure if if if that's still in existence either that may have been redeveloped I'm not going to I'm not going to speculate but it it did did on at that time when the map was prepared it did continue through across Fuller uh as shown on the 200 foot radius map okay and will it remain undeveloped the that portion of camper it I'm a little confused that that strip of land is now owned by Mr Wright okay and he has a is you can see if you look at that strip to the left of it is a house and that's Mr Wright's house so that strip has become part of his property and I think if Mr O'Brien can go down yeah yeah and I don't know how far over we go to the left no yes so that's the strip of land that you that Mr O'Brien just had his cursor on is part of Mr Wright's property okay thank you uh to continue on because I know you don't want to hear me talk any longer uh I would like to call as my first witness Miss Edwards you Sly swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got confirm or I swear thank you can you give the board your name and address please uh my name is Severina Edward S as in Sam e v as in victor e r i n as in Nancy a last name Edward no s address 304 dillian Court North Brunswick New Jersey 08902 okay you can have a seat Miss Edward Miss Edward you are a trustee of the church that is correct okay and you heard my opening comments where I recounted the testimony of Miss Payne concerning the hours that the church operated and the number of people that generally attended the church correct that is correct and that testimony of of Miss Payne uh as far as that is accurate today that is correct okay and at my request uh did I ask you to do a count of how many people attend your church on Sunday at the present time and yes you did okay and what month did you do a a count on we did that in November of 2023 okay and this is when you have services from 11: a.m. to 3:00 p.m. correct that is correct okay and can you go through the weeks and indicate how many people attend the services okay on Sunday November 5th approximately 26 people attended November 12th 54 people November 19th 39 people November 26 41 people okay and at the present time your parking lot only has about 10 parking spaces correct that is correct and those spaces with the people that come get filled up and I assume the rest of the people park on the street that is correct and there is public street parking available around the site that is correct okay um when we had the last hearing uh the board asked us to uh or asked the church to look at the possibility of making the church smaller did the Board of Trustees meet and discuss uh that as an option in dealing with this project yes we did and what was the result of this discussions of the board and the Board of Trustees and their sentiments um at this time uh we decided that for the um in order to allow for growth with our church Downs sign in would not be an option for us um because at the present moment we're not even able to perform some of the activities that we would like to okay and the based on the new parking that we're proposing uh and based on the current congregation the quite frankly your new parking lot would be able to handle all of the attendees to the church on Sunday which is your biggest day is that correct that is correct okay and also miss Payne testified uh at the last hearing that you do have Vans uh that are available to pick up congregants uh that need rides to church so that they they don't have to drive is that correct that is correct and that van service is still being provided if may be that is correct and if need be in the future uh if additional van are necessary you would recruit members of the congregation again to pick up other members and get them to the church that is correct okay now uh the church didn't at the request of the board try to find alternative parking and uh did arrange to be able to use the PNC site is that correct that is correct and the the church signed an agreement with PNC uh to use their their parking lot that is correct okay and their parking lot's about a block and a half away correct that is correct and if there ever would be a need to use that parking lot uh would the church agree that they would transport the people that use that parking lot uh to the church rather than have them walk uh to the church that's correct no further questions does Bard have any questions for this witness Mr Edward typically how many congregants are using Advan service now at the moment none but if there is a need for it um they are available for use uh Peter you I don't think you ever said how many spaces are available at the PNC Bank my traffic consultant will give you that information but the answer is 70 just a a question on membership so in the original submitt it was indicated that the total members I guess at that time was 175 and that the anticipated total is 200 and the worship area you're proposing 303 seats so so youti you're anticipating growth up to that 303 that's correct um From Any Given Sunday the numbers can increase um so in order for us to accommodate not just the numbers we currently have but the growth that we are expecting um we would like to build a little bigger yes okay so I think you know one of the things that I think perhaps the traffic expert will have to address is and then you have the Fellowship Hall but even just the worship area 303 seats the parking requirement is one one space for every three seats so you have a parking need of 101 spaces so I think you know it's going to have to be proven how that with with specific numbers of how that's going to be addressed and and Mr Hy if I may uh as was discussed at the last meeting uh Miss pay testified that the the base which was is for Fellowship would not be used or occupied at the time that the sanctuary or that the services are taking place that would be used afterwards so I would ask the board when they consider the parking requirement uh I know technically under the ordinance you count all the parking spaces but the actual need is based on the 303 seats in the sanctuary do you have full access to the PNC parking is full the on Sundays on Sundays Sundays we have the use of the entire light the PNC is not open on Sundays understood is a is it a paid agreement excuse me is it a paid agreement no they're giving us the right to use it as a license we don't have thankfully we don't have to pay them I have a clarification to ask Mark uh isn't there something that uh the parking spots uh is a proportion of the square footage of the area as around 15 square foot yeah that was one of the comments and I I'm reading through the minutes I don't recall if it was addressed at the last hearing yeah if the if the if the seats are not permanent like if it's not set pews nailed to the ground it then it's based on it's one parking space for every 15 square feet um I frankly I don't recall if that number was provided by the applicant at the last hearing or not now these are fixed seats okay what but not in the fellowship hall and that's that's not going to be fixed seats no those are going to be tables and chairs right but but Mr Johnson testified that the occupancy in the fellowship hall was about 80 okay but the worship area all fixed seats so all fixed seats okay thank you yes so I have a question so based on the numbers that Miss Edward provided in terms of attendance that averages out to 42 you're asking for 303 seats that's over 700% growth of attendees only not total Parish families that may be members but not attend that is to me hard to believe just because you've been at this for seven years and there would be I if you haven't growing that much in s years what how do we as a board believe that you would grow that much in the future and request all of these variances well I I think there's a couple things one is if you've been by there and see the condition of the church it is not the most attractive Church in its present condition and it's hard to attract people to come to the church secondly uh for fortunately for Franklin Township they have moved forward with a Redevelopment plan this area is being redeveloped many new residences are being constructed around this area and also we are not too far from Hamilton Street and the Hamilton Street business district which is also growing so the the church wants to be there for the community this is when I started talking to them in 2015 uh their vision is that that as this area gets redeveloped there will be more people coming in and hopefully more attendees to the church uh well Peter hope is not a strategy and I mean as a board you're asking us to assume that there's going to be a significant draw to this church from those residents which may or may not be true you've got a building that's being proposed that requires numerous variances that are far from di Minimus and I'm trying to understand how you're projecting this growth when so much Redevelopment has already happened um around that area and the numbers you provided as testimony right here in the record just don't support that that growth is happening if I heard oh you know there's there's 42 there's 100 there's 150 there's 200 that would make me believe I don't hear that well let me and I'll call Mr Johnson up too because he's been very involved in in the development of the site but a couple things one a lot the building itself is in scale and proportion to the Zone requirements and meets the way how can you say that when you're requesting all variances that are like not di Minimus you're going from 50 feet to 5et in setbacks and various other things the impervious coverage is like 18% over it's not actually I disagree with your testimony you didn't let me finish Mr or well I don't like the direction you're headed that's only part part of it was driven by the fact that we tried to maximize the number of parking spaces on the site and most of the impervious coverag is because of the parking if the board wants me to take out the parking spaces to put more trees and more buffering on the site you know we could do that if we want to eliminate the variances I think in The Balancing Act of Mr O'Brien's the planner he'll testify but it was our overwriting thought was that we would rather request the Varian is to provide the parking for the people who attend the church and rather than provide it and we can provide additional screening as was requested by this by Mr Haley we can do all of those things but but most of this is driven by the parking and and but no no no the parking is driven by the size of the building if we if we ask you to comply with with the ordinance you wouldn't even have room for a church to provide all that parking I mean you you can't you're using only a one-sided argument it's a two-way street your building is driving the parking knee if you if you demolish the church and built something more to scale you could probably provide the parking on site or maybe you need only one agreement or something like that and I'll get to the parking agreements when you put your um traffic expert on but to say that it's you know it's being driven by the size of the building but all right I I I will if if the board has any other questions of Miss Edward if not I will have think I think I've made my myself clear go to your next we thank you Mr Mr Johnson you testified in in 2018 or I'm sorry 2022 and you were sworn at that time yes I was and you're still under oath yes I am thank you okay I'd like to just um indicate that this isn't the first church that I've designed Mr Johnson can you please speak up and into the mic because the recording secretary is not going to be able to hear you can you hear me now yes that's much better thank you yeah I've designed other churches around the state and one particular and Perth hboy when we were approached by the pastor he had 200 members that was 25 years ago we now have, 1500 we bought nine or so properties around the uh area we've started other churches in planfield and in um uh Asbury Park we've done a similar thing in Union New Jersey in Nork New Jersey um if the facility is there and the vision is there it can happen I've seen it happen and I've been doing this since 1964 and it's not just a building it's an edifice the evidence of those other growths I could present uh numbers and things but I know it may not have anything to do with what you're voting on but what I'm saying is that I have seen it where yes you start out with two or 300 people and you end up with thousands it's something that happens yeah I mean I I would agree with you however you know again there's there scale um you know and you have to have the right side as a piece of property um you know I can't speak to the other communities which you to which you refer and their planning and zoning ordinances um my oath is to Franklin and so I'm going by the fact that you know our planner has identified a number of things and then you have these again the parking agreements which I'll leave to your traffic U engineer to testify about but I mean yeah it can happen if you know going to get cart bnch on on all of these variances but uh there's there's there's burden of proof there so that your planner I'm sure will address that but I I really don't care what happens elsewhere I don't care what happens in Franklin like to call Mr Troutman tell way to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth to help you got yes I do name an address for the record please uh Jay Troutman MCD and Ray Associates 105 Elm Street Westfield New Jersey Mr Troutman you also testified in at the previous hearing did you not yes uh and since the previous hearing uh have you been back to the subject property have you visited the surrounding areas and had an opportunity to observe uh the parking lot at the church the parking lot that I referenced at RPM across the street and also are you familiar with the agreement with uh PNC Bank yes uh he before you do that can I just ask whether or not your credentials have changed in any manner since you were last accepted by this board as an expert traffic engineering uh they have not thank you he continues to be accepted you we may continue thank you so uh we we did site visits and it we actually did a traffic and parking report back in 2022 uh and testified uh at the hearing as well and then we Revisited uh all of the findings from our original analysis and it's all the same situation I mean I can go through it chapter and verse if you'd like but basically uh there is on street parking uh around the site the other thing that we talked about was that with the new plan um there will be additional carb face actually along this property that doesn't exist now because the parking space is back right out on to Booker so there there will actually be additional carb face created for on street parking and uh we also uh have visited the RPM property on Sunday mornings and found that indeed there are uh at least 25 bacon parking spaces at that site um the other thing um we've done studies of churches over the years and the the fellowship hall is not used simultaneous with with the worship space um it's the same people they just moved to a different room so that would be a double count of parking to to count that to park that as well as the the the seating space uh in my opinion the the 70 spaces that you gain from PNC uh actually accommodates full occupancy of that that proposed space um as you heard the space is proposed to accomodate growth uh and and I I really feel that that it would be it would be um most heavily occupied only a few times a year when everybody comes out for Christmas or Easter or some kind of other denominational Gathering that might bring in people for meetings and stuff like that so I I from what I've observed I don't think the PNC parking would be used on a regular basis but it would be there if they did need to fully utilize the space for larger uh holidays and events Mr TR I just want to point out in your testimony so the the 101 spaces are based solely on the warship use not we're not we're not even counting any space for the fellowship hall because of the reason the our ordinance takes into account the fact that you know obviously people you know the fellowship hall is probably going to be used either for a an event um and it and and the parking requirement would accommodate that or people will be there for services and then go go to that so I just want you to be aware that the 101 spaces do not count Fellowship on agreed yes and and just to give the number what our total Supply would be uh with the PNC you would have 38 on the property you would have 25 close by at RPM that makes 63 and then the 70 PNC brings you to 133 so it's actually you know quite it's quite fortunate that that's a large PNC parking lot I wasn't expecting to find that many spaces there and and it does in fact uh fulfill again that situation where you have an event that generates that kind of parking now Mr Troutman uh as I indicated the PNC parking lot is about a block and a half away from the subject property as the crow flies yes and to get from the PNC lot to the church it can be walked yes but uh based on the discussions with the church would it also be your recommendation that if the board would approve this uh that Transportation be provided from the PNC lot to the churches uh part of the church operations yes and and Booker Street does connect through the back to get the PNC so you wouldn't even have to utilize Franklin Boulevard so I have a question there's no no no sidewalk on that street if you're going to go from PNC there is no so they would have to cut across a field or they would walk on the street there's no sidewalks there so I looked at that correct the the the the direct route would be across the grass or the field uh the PNC site is fully sidewalked the RPM site is fully sidewalked but there's one block in between that has a worn dirt path in front of the the residences that are on that block between PNC and RPM so there is a dirt path single file I would say people are walking there now but they wouldn't be in the street but they'd be on a dirt path yeah that would be a little concerning right because to walk on that that portion of the street and that's why we're proposing to to transport people rather than you know obviously they would have the option to walk if they wanted to walk but we would provide the transportation and then in your opinion uh on as you testified that the rare occasions such as the Christmas and the Easter or uh perhaps a big wedding where the sanctuary is fully occupied in your opinion with the parking spaces that we have been able to would be able to create onsite plus the offsite parking uh plus the additional on street parking that we would be providing uh we would have enough parking to handle this facility at full capacity yes and and as a regular operation Sunday after Sunday uh all you would really need is the on-site parking lot and the on Street spaces along the lot Frontage unless they become very successful and which we all which they're hoping yeah then we go into RPM and uh so so re the reality is they would use the on-site then they would use street parking then they would use RPM and then the bank would be sort of The Last Resort so to speak correct thank you I have nothing for I think this goes to what I was saying before about trying to quantify this so have 303 seats for our ordinance that means you have to park 101 cars you have 38 on site can you quantify you said on street parking how how many on street parking have you looked at the availability of on street parking at that time of the day and the week yes same thing with with the RPM site have you looked at at the availability of spaces at that time of the of the week um and so can you speak to that please yes on Sundays um RPM does have at least 25 vacant spaces in that lot uh the other and so is this based on based on what your your own observation have you do have you documented that in any way yes I mean I drove through and counted up 25 spaces plus the on my drive-throughs on on the Sundays I've been there and then uh we did do an analysis of the uh on street parking uh on Fuller Street between book and the new parking lot driveway you would have room for two cars on Fuller Street West of the new driveway you would have room for another three on Booker where we're closing off those spaces that back into Booker you would gain another five so that's that's 10 spaces right adjacent to the property on the street and then as you move further out um I will note that Fuller between Booker and Franklin has been full of cars every time I've been out there so I put that as a zero available uh but if you look at Booker between Fuller and Somerset you could gain another 15 per side on that that'd be another 30 and then as you work further out um Booker to the north of the site has both sides available for parking and Fuller on the south side across from the site has available parking and then Fuller further west has parking and then you would be to cam there and and just it has parking what how many are they available at that time of the day I mean I I I'm sorry but you're giving a lot of just very unspecific testimony here I gave you you're you're reacting but this site needs 101 spaces respectfully I think there needs to be testimony okay here's 101 we're going to be meeting we're going to meet it by this you know we're going to have this this much here this much here this much here we have this agreement here we we looked at this these streets and these streets have this much available par I'm hearing this space well there there is parking there how many break it down for the board we just did I gave you numbers I didn't hear I heard two spaces here three spaces here and then then I heard a bunch of unspecific information then you didn't hear the five I said on Booker the 30 I said on Booker to the south of Somerset and nice to have some of this ahead of time rather than having to react on the spot and have to add the stuff up in our head as opposed to I mean some of these questions were raised two years ago it would have been good to have something in writing ahead of time for the board to look at and be prepared and to ask questions on that rather than having to react on the spot so one of the things I was going to ask our attorney to comment on was how the board should regard third party parking agreements um so all that Jim talk about that Mr chairman if I could before that I think the witness has testified with regard to 10 spaces uh that'll be added because the curb space will be created but I don't know that we heard any quantification of the availability specific number of on street parking on the other streets I'd like to know how many visits you made to draw your conclusion and when you made those visits sure uh my first visit was April 3rd 2022 before the last hearing um I have I I don't remember the specific dates but on other occasions when I've been through here on a Sunday more recently I've made visits to confirm the numbers that I just gave and I did say uh on Booker between Fuller and Somerset on All Occasions completely empty it fits 15 cars aside that's 30 cars completely empty on a Sunday morning on All Occasions that I've visited and I did move further out and again observe I also said Fuller was full so that was a zero I mentioned that number as well so I'm not counting any of that beyond all that if you just take the 38 plus the 25 with RPM plus the 70 that are not fixed indefinitely they are both terminable which means that they could be terminated by RPM or by PNC bank and then you have a situation where those parking spaces that the applicant is relying on are no longer available you have to decide whether or not that can represent a substantial detriment to the public good and to the neighborhood people competing for parking spaces Mr Clark and I disagree with your statement on only to the extent that the parking spaces at the RPM site are not terminable they're part of a written cont contractual agreement that we are entitled to use those spaces and I will have provide the the document and have it recorded which will indicate that we have a right to use those spaces based on what I have in front of me that's why I said what I said if you can provide me the agreement I may modify my statement okay uh second of all and I sort of alluded to it uh before the township ordinance section 11298 indicates that off street parking facilities for one use shall not be providing uh the required parking for another facility except that one half of the off street parking space is required but by any of those uses whose Peak attendance will be at night or on Sundays such as but not limited to churches theaters or assembly Halls so your ordinance does allow us to use the off-site facilities and have them counted as our parking spaces it's not something that you know we just made up and said we want to use them your ordance gives us the right to use those well C well it doesn't give us give you a right to use PNC that's an agreement yet straight it gives you excuse excuse me it gives you a right to claim the off street parking that you you you just cited the ordinance so let's be clear that the RPM and the PNC don't count in that ordinance or in that provision of that section no it doesn't it's the off street parking that counts right you're talking about uses the ordinance can not possibly anticipate third- party agreements the the ordinance does anticipate that we can use off street parking on other sites and count them as our parking spaces if if our church got busy now and we have an agreement with PNC and PNC's closed right it's closed on Sundays okay and I we tell our congregant go to PNC we'll pick you up and bring you to church we don't need this board's approval to do that your ordinance allows it it's a matter of right but the concern I have and Jim outlined it quite clearly more with PNC maybe than with RPM I think you know is there a chance that RPM could go away in the future yeah probably but I mean unlikely right it's those are Apartments it's unlikely they're going to be raised and you going to build a warehouse there so I'll try so um but PNC and other third party agreements the way this board has treated is we have no ability to enforce that and in the very document you given us for for the PNC agreement it says either party can terminate within 30 days for any reason or no reason whatsoever so it is hard it is impossible for these board to enforce that were that to go away and you're claiming 70 spaces I I can't I can't enforce that we can't enforce that as a board we can't even put it in a condition because the you would be you would be unable to even comply with that condition that's that's not necessarily true you can put a condition in that if for some reason the PNC agreement uh goes away we have to find alternative par come back to the board and provide proof that we have alternative off-site parking or we may then have to restrict our occupancy if we can't provide the parking there are way you can control it oh yeah but I mean that's awfully hard to enforce uh what am I going to do you know send send the zoning officer out to like you down until you find that parking I mean you're you're getting into far away land here the way the board addresses these matters is through Planning and Zoning compliance which you don't have and there's what I'm trying to bring out is if you constructed a smaller building nothing nothing against this congregation nothing against this church churches are great use for that zone and for the whole Redevelopment Zone and I want to approve a church there but it's very difficult for this board to look at all those variances and the size of that church and the testimony that you've provided in the number of attendees of the congregation that over seven years does not seem to have changed appreciably that you know and and and the unenforceability of third-party agreements by this board to to just wave all that away I can't do it well a couple other points this board approved a couple years ago a church on Hamilton Street it his uh Hispanic Church uh converted an existing building to it it had basically a similar situation with some small parking lot adjacent to it and then it negotiated for off-site parking across the street uh in the building that uh as the uh senior affordable housing they have the right to use that parking lot that church has been there now probably 10 years never had a problem and it's a similar type situation it's a it was a small Spanish congregation that came out of New Brunswick and they provide B and they testify to it they provide Advance service for their people to come there uh and it has not created a problem for the church it has not cre created a problem for the adjoining uh property that they share the parking arrangement with which was allowed nor have they created parking problems on Hamilton Street and again they're they're the only open on Sundays and and evenings but it works okay and you're only referring to the parking did they have you know a laundry list of variances as well uh they I mean I don't remember the application so I would look I would look that up my guess is it it was probably before the zoning board because I don't think churches were permitted on Hamilton Street I don't think you may have heard it but different different I don't remember but I don't remember every application but yeah there were venerations because again we did not have enough parking on site and that site was basically 100% impervious there's there's no Landscaping there's no anything uh but that's the way to and the other thing uh Mr chairman you got to understand I mean we can provide additional buffering and everything but a lot of the intent of the ordinance to provide buffering and screaming is in situations where you have a house of worship that's surrounded by single family residential dwellings uh such as we've had on the Jane Center on Cedar Grove Lane we had an Anand deand Deere the this is basically an inner city situation this is not the same and your ordinance is is not a one ordinance fits all that's why you grant variances I mean here you have C your B land behind us that they don't want to sell we Grant variances when the burden of proof is you know presented that we believe um it's not cart blanch just because it's before the planning board but it is a residential neighborhood and and there are residences around that church and and there's some vacant Lots I I'm seen the aial um it's not it's not you know surrounded by commercial or industrial uses exclusively the there the area behind the church is owned by the township we tried to acquire it they won't sell it so you want us to buffer the township land from yes I mean again we can do it and well they may sell it someday I mean it is zoned for I believe it's probably on R7 or r10 or something like that or or whatever but I mean it it's Poss possible that it could one day be residential it's unlikely it would ever be anything else so I mean I think we would want to anticipate that we would want to buffer that yeah and and and we can but but but my guess is it probably won't be because if if the tent was interested in selling it to us uh as even I think it was councilman chase at that time was the one who was sort of pushing for it they probably would have put it on the market so we could have acquired it and provided additional buffering and screening but it didn't happen and it's unfortunate I wish it did because I mean there's like you know you said in earlier there was maybe a chance that somebody would put in a bid for and construct two single family homes there and the church wouldn't get it but you know it's it's a what if I mean it would have been nice to have the church have that opportunity and and we tried to do that again we and and the other thing is you know where where where's the magic line you know we do have enough parking at least in our opinion based on the testimony I mean you know you're you're saying well the church is too big if if I have a house or I want to build a house and it's it's me and my wife and I want to build a five bedroom house is somebody going to tell me you're building a house that's too big for you if you do it on a on an R1 law you probably will if they grant that then you know there's something wrong with the planning it I mean I'm not going to plunk down a Beverly Hills mansion on my 1 acre lot somebody shouldn't allow that now could I go for all these variances sure I could could it be done yes should it be done is it a better planning alternative doubt it again the let me let me just get the number the building coverage requirement in the zone is 30% and we're at 19% so the building is not in variance you got to understand that no the building is in variance because of the setbacks being required yeah and it's clearly large larger than what the ordinance allows no it's allowed one acre you got 0.57 so it's it's about little Les a little less than 60% of what it should be and and and again we attempted to acquire the additional land and can't get it but the building itself again if we move it to the other side I if if we move the building to the corner of of Fuller and Booker then we we we would not have those setback variances we' just lose parking and we talked about that at the last hearing if we if we flip that building to the other side to the corner then we would meet all the setback requirements but we would have less parking and I don't think that makes any sense but if you want us to move the building over I can talk to the congregation about moving a smaller building it's not really the size of the building I mean the size this is a residential zone so I think the 30% building coverage is anticipating that it's I mean the primary use of this of this zone is residential homes you know so you know the the size of that building in relation to the size of the lot is not too big it complies it's a function of the use yeah this isn't a house this is a a house of worship where you're going to have 303 seats and a fellowship hall and the parking needs that come with that use it's so it's not the size of the building it's the use and the number and the and the fact it's going to be an assembly use with a lot of seats in it and again what comes with that is a large parking demand yeah I do have a issue getting back to the to the parking a little bit with with and C bank because I'm I am not comfortable with any comments coming back to the board that say well if we lose the uh right to use it then you bring us back in you make us prove we have the parking or curtail the services or cut down the operation because three or four years down the road that doesn't work when people are are used to doing something PNC Bank does bother me a little bit because it can be gone in a heartbeat in the years I've lived in this town there have been five banks there everyone comes with a different manager a different philosophy you that's all you need I'm not saying that it it can't work but it is a concern but but and I understand that Mr Thomas but your ordinance allows us to count that toward our parking requirement that's in your ordinance it says I can camp offsite parking spaces towards my parking requirement well the other thing regarding the parking is can you can you give us a little of a little bit of an idea how far we're moving out away from the church when we're talking about the on street parking uh you said Somerset Street 15 yeah let me go over that again just because um I just realized in my numbers if you don't even count P PNC we have 103 parking spaces that are within a block based on my observations and the way I get there is I already told you about the 10 spaces immediately around on street that are going to be created so we have 63 the we have the the 38 on the site the 25 RPM that's 63 plus those 10 is 73 and then what I did was on the block of Booker between Fuller and Somerset I took a measurement of that it's 330 ft if you divide that by 22 that's 15 cars on each side and it was empty there wasn't a single car parked there on a Sunday morning not one so that's that's 30 parking spaces right there in that block and it would it would be similar to what I observed at the Baptist church across Franklin Boulevard if you look at the Baptist Church all the cars park on Fuller they fill up all the streets on Sunday morning at the Baptist Church well I don't think this will ever be that but it's the same idea the same thing is happening in the neighborhood right across Frankin Boulevard uh that provision actually means a little more to me than than the PNC Bank as long as we're not getting so far out away from the church that it's not reasonable to think that people are going to walk it uh or if there you know there needs to be some sort of reasonable chance that the walk is doable you know not in the middle of the street you know things like that I agree um I just want to point out that section 11298 does not permit an applicant to count on Street spaces it makes a particular point of allowing in certain cases to allow offsite if the ordinance if the drafter of the ordinance wanted to do that they would have done it and I've seen it in other towns yeah and I I didn't say that 11298 had anything to do with on on street parking but Troutman has testified that there is on street parking available as further consideration for the board we didn't count it we well what we counted was the PNC site what we counted was the RPM site and our site which we believe we are entitled to count pursuant to the ordinance I'm going to give the board my interpretation of the ordinance that unless you have an agreement that is absolute and is not terminable the board has the discretion not to count those spaces they can go away tomorrow in 30 days strike that well again I don't I don't think that applies to the RPM site I don't I think the the board can put in their or in their resolution conditions to make sure that we if we don't have that space at PNC that we would have to find alternative offsite parking which I don't have a problem with I would reverse that and I would I would I would require you to show me that you have parking imp perpetuity because you're putting burden proof on the board I'm putting it on the applicant because it's your application you have to prove that you have the parking in perpetuity I don't have a problem with RPM a problem with PNC PNC becomes a McDonald's tomorrow you don't have that parking then then then somebody needs to change yours because the ordinance the ordance allows me to count it the ordinance allow I just heard from my attorney and I'm comfortable with what he's saying we can count it if it's in perpetuity if it could disappear within 30 days for no reason at all PNC just wait waks up on the wrong side of the bed one day and says you know no if if it was the intent of the ordinance that those parking spaces offsite had to be in imp perpetuity it would say so it doesn't say that that's not what the ordinance says I think a reasonable interpretation of the ordinance can be made by this board I I I don't I don't agree with that Mr Clarkin but again you'll advise the board and and I think some of the language of that of that section is important because it it says all Street facilities for one use shall be constructed as providing the required facilities for another use etc etc may be assigned to you which will be closed at night or on Sundays says that may not shall so that so that that I think that's a key difference if it said shall then I think Mr lanford's language that they have the right to use it would apply this is saying May when I see language in ordinance where it says it may be assigned that's that's a discretionary judgment yeah that in my opinion is done by an approving board who else makes that who else makes that decision that it may be assigned other than either a a zoning officer or an approving board an applicant doesn't make that doesn't make that an applicant is given a right if the ordinance says it shall be assigned so are you saying Mark that if I decide I want to use PNC bank now that I can't use it I have to come to the board to get permission use it not with a not with the new church right now what I'm saying is the language is saying that if you prove to the satisfaction of the board the board may be convinced that you can use those you can use those spaces towards your parking requirement that that's the statement I made that's not if that's not your question I I I didn't understand your question but that was not my that that that my statement was that's what the ordinance says it may be assigned and the board has the judgement whether to assign it or not why don't we do something the other way for once applicants suggested you know take our word for the parking and everything is okay and if it doesn't work out later bring us back why don't we say ask for the applicant to reduce the number of fixed seats to 200 you don't have the need for them at the moment if you find you might in the future have a need for them then you could come back and demonstrate how the site is working then if you use uh uh reduce the 100 seats you're losing uh parking your parking requirements going to drop by what 30 something enough spaces that between uh the on-site parking and the RPM site you practically have the enough have it covered and then if the if if the use demonstrates it in four four or five years then you come back here and say here we are we need this and then maybe uh land will become available somewhere else are are you suggesting Mr Thomas so I can understand your position that we can build the building but restrict the number of seats within the building that's my first thought I don't know how it flies with planning and uh Mr Clark and and the uh parking requirement but it does reduce the parking requirement it does but it doesn't answer the question of the size of the building the applicant still has to have its proofs to justify the granting of the bulk variances for setbacks and for lot coverage that's understood can uh impervious coverage lot coverage is the building the variance is for impervious coverage yeah the variance is for impervious coverage that's correct yes I I just like to observe that we're arguing everything assuming the building is fully used despite the fact that the chair has speculated that he doesn't expect that the building will be fully used for at least within quite a number of years and the applicants are saying we need a bigger building in order to encourage the church to grow as possible if the church grows to that extent they might build another bigger facility somewhere else I go back far enough to remember when there was a church started at a house on West Point Avenue and it the zoning board denied the permission to use that for a church and it went all the way to the state supreme court which said yes we would have to and they subsequently built a much big a big building over on Franklin Boulevard so that's another thing that can happen I think Mr Thomas's suggestion is an excellent suggestion I was thinking myself that it would be nice if you could design the building and sometimes for some purposes if not for churches this is done start out smaller but designed so that the building can be extended if they use of of course you need then need all of the the setback uh variances but I observe that if we have a 50 50 foot front yard set back and a 30 foot backyard set back that only leaves 20 ft in the middle for a building know a VAR variances I I think the only things you can really argue about are the sidey guard variances which are very small but the sidey yard uh is toward the vacated Street not towards another house that's called I I I think Mr Thomas's suggestion is and and I think Dr chases may be a little bit different I think Thomas was sort of suggesting we build a building but limit the occupancy and Dr Chase is suggesting we build a smaller building and then expand it later if necessary I think Mr Thomas's suggestion is better okay particularly since the parking is based on the number of seats okay so if the number of seats are reduced the parking requirement is reduced and I see members of the audience nodding approval I I I I have I think I would like a brief recess to talk to the members of the congregation to see if there may be an interest in discussing that further with the board 10 minutes okay recom at 9: or do you need more that'll work okay we're in recess till 9:00 e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e to that says it's 901 and I'm only a minute late so it wasn't too bad when I was in school I was a lot later than that uh Mr chairman uh based on the input of Mr Thomas and and Dr Chase we want to look at perhaps reducing the seating within the confines of the building perhaps making the building a little bit smaller so that we can increase some buffers uh Mr Healey indicated that you know we don't want to do this on the Fly either so that if we do modify the plan we'd like to get it to you ahead of time uh so that you have something to digest by the time we come back yes uh so I I think at this juncture I'd like to have this matter carried not for a year and a half but uh hopefully uh I I think Carrie with no further notice har with no further notice we'll have Christine read out whatever you guys de sign once figure it out probably hopefully we can be ready by September so we have uh September 4th is not available September 18th are matters that are yours guda 500 Atrium and Concor if you want to move all of them and move this there that's your prerogative what why don't we move this to September 18th hopefully we will be ready by then and and if not you know we can keep one of those other matters on actually one of them the tacha may be acquiring some land so uh why we move it to September 18th and uh we'll try to get something together by Mr Johnson to give at least a a plan to the board by uh the middle of August middle of August a month you're not allowed to have a vacation all these people are waiting for you I'd suggest you give it another month at least you want to do at the first meeting in October is that open no it's not anything close I I still think September 4th is going away but that's just my own opinion I guess we can't rely on yeah we may not be ready we can't plan on it yeah no uh what the next available one is October 16th after that so all right let's let's do October 16th which gives Mr Johnson some time and also gives the congregation some time and hopefully we'll get the plans to the board and give them some time to look at it so the plans will have to be given Mr Johnson they have to have at least three weeks to review and I have meetings with the staff every Tuesday so just keep that in mind so that you know and the packet has to be ready a week before the board meeting so we're looking if you want to come on October 16th I should have your plans by September 16th just think you know think along those lines to give them the staff enough time to review everything is that reasonable okay thank you Mr Johnson okay so then this matter Macedonia Church docket number pln 2100 22 will be carried with without notice needed this notice will be um verbal now and it'll be on the agenda that's placed on the website to uh October what did I say October 16th at 7:30 p.m in this building with no further notice required so if you're here U for that which I'm pretty sure everyone is um we'll we'll hear it then and thank you for um listening to the board and considering our feedback um it's it's our intent to try to be helpful um not to beat anyone up but you know I I know you you've done this long enough Peter to know that you know the planning the planning law and the stuff that we we like to see and so uh appreciate their consideration in that we always try to take the board's concerns into consideration sometimes we agree with them sometimes we don't but uh we'll see what we can work out sounds good I need an extension letter Peter in writing for whatever you want to give I will put it on the record right now but I will send the letter for the record I will grant an extension of time through October 31st in this matter and I will do an extension letter for you don't no any other business Christine if not I would move to a journ second all in favor all we're journ stay cool e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e