P 1975 chapter 231 adequate notice of this regular meeting of the planning board of the township of Franklin has been provided if everyone could please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance Al to the flag flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all all right um let's uh swear in um we've already he's been oh he's he's good to go okay awesome so um couple of um couple of announcements tonight two hearings guda and Davidson properties are rescheduled um goua for uh June 19th which will be Ren notified um so you don't have to remember um and Davidson properties to June 5th um also will be Ren notified so if anybody's here for either of those two applications it won't be heard tonight the only one we'll be hearing is Jane Center okay councilman narison here Theodor Chase here Robert Lort here Sammy shoban Jennifer ragno here Mahir Rafi here Charles Brown did ask to be excused this evening Robert Thomas Rebecca Hilbert here and chairman Rini here so um several sets of minutes tonight verse one from the regular meeting October 4th 2023 Theodore Chase Jennifer ragnell Mahir Rafi Robert Thomas Rebecca Hilbert are the only ones that can vote move the resolution I'll second Theodor Chase yes Jennifer ragno Yes Mah Rafi yes uh Robert Thomas yes Rebecca hbert yes okay uh regular meeting minutes from November 1st 2023 so Bob Lor Mahia Rafi and Rebecca Hilbert cannot vote I'll go ahead and move them second chairman uh um Barrison promoted me I'm I'm sorry councilman I'm looking at the man it might not be a promotion promise why am okay trying to keep up yes Theodore Chase yes Jennifer ragau Yes Robert Thomas yes chairman Orsini yes on minutes from the regular meeting of December 6th 2023 only Bob Lort cannot vote I will move them then second councilman M barison yes beor Chase yes Jennifer ragno Yes Mah Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca Hilbert yes and chairman or yes uh a few resolutions uh barbecue tonight LLC um extension of time Robert Lor Jennifer ragau and chairman or uh orini cannot vote move the resolution second that was Juma here oh thank you councilman and barison yes Theodore Chase yes Mahir Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca Hilbert yes okay and uh pulio International Inc uh councilman andaris Robert Lor and they cannot vote I will move second Theodor Chase yes bennifer ragnow yes Mahia Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca Hilbert yes and chairman Rini yes so attorney resolutions um this is a little bit different than what you have on your agenda so we're going to do two one is for uh firm of Clarin and vulo our regular uh planning board attorneys um the second will be for U Eric Bernstein who um served as our attorney on B9 and will be handling um any um any necessary legal matters stemming from that particular application um so we'll take U our regular planning board attorney first resolution which you have uh before you and I think Mark has emailed everyone the resolution for Eric Bernstein so the first one for Clarkin and vulo I I will move second councilman and Barson yes Theodor Chase yes Robert Lort yes bennifer ragno yes Mahia Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca hbert yes chairman Rini yes than you you're more than welcome um and the second for um The Firm of Eric M Bernstein and Associates for um be on related legal matters U I'll move that oh my God second chairman oh my God councilman watch out oh god oh she really wants you to have that for motion councilman and marrison yes Fedor Chase yes Robert Lort yes bennifer ragno yes Mah Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Becca hbert yes and chairman arini yes uh discussion item one um and Mark do you want to handle this one yeah so um and I believe Christine sent you a draft um so when an application comes before either the zoning board or the planning board for uh subdivision a site plan uh or for variances there are checklists that outline the submission requirements um and that is adopted by ordinance um and that what gets reviewed for an application to be deemed complete before they can appear before the board um the uh every once in a while we review um that checklist uh and changes to it have to be adopted by an ordinance of council um so in reviewing the checklist um there are a few technical things on there that are recommended by the engineer um geotechnical information that's necessary for storm water um and one other technical change that I forget but it's on the forms that were sent to you um something oh something about um getting a a will serve letter from the water utility to make sure that they actually have water when they want to connect to water yes Ted what happens if the property in question is not served by the Water Utility the way you've written it it just says as if if they can't Supply that letter then the application can't go ahead no so what what happens is on any on any checklist item um the applicant uh there's a column for the applicant to check off whether they've provided it whether it's their opinion that it's not applicable or if it's there's a waiver so obviously if they're going to be on sept or Wells it would be not they would check off not applicable so then there would be that would not be an issue for being deemed complete so that's that's that's already that's taken care of I knew you had to have a way of handling yes yes on any particular thing if it's not you know for example I mean one of the things that's already in there is show us how you're connecting to the sewer system well they're connecting to septic and they might have to show that but um so but the main change I wanted to go over with the board was uh right now when somebody makes an application for a subdivision or site plan um they have to submit 25 hard copies of the plans um and that's that means the site plans as as well as the architectural plans um as you know some of these plant can be I mean they're 2 feet by 3 feet and there could could be anywhere from 5 to 60 sheets uh multiply that by 25 and the size of those documents it's uh you know a lot of paper um and then um traffic study and uh environmental we require 15 that's a little bit less of an issue in terms of paper but so the proposal well really what's what what I'm asking you to discuss tonight is whether you'd be um basically want to go digital or somewhere in between whether it's um so in a in a in a nutshell what could what could happen is instead of getting the the big packets with all of that paper that you need to Lug back and forth something's adjourned you got to bring it home bring it back um we're going to we've already been putting all of the the most the most relevant application materials on the website you know the plans the studies um and so what the proposal would be would be that we would when Christine sends out the agenda she'll put the link to the web page for each application and that that page is going to have all of all of the materials site plans the architecturals the traffic study the environmental study the storm waterer report all of the staff reports the county report the RCC basically everything's going to be on the township website and on the agenda underneath the item Christine's going to put the link um you know so that's basically the proposal and that would be I think we would by doing that I did talk talk to TRC staff still wants the big plans um so I think by doing this U the zba discussed it last week they were open to they they were enthusiastic about the change um and basically we'd cut the number probably at least in half I think we'd probably go with like 12 copies for staff and just have a couple extra copies um but we cut it down from 25 to most likely 10 or 12 um so that's the proposal for you know before for you for your discussion um again if the board um is in favor of that we'll have to um prepare the ordinance send it to council Council introduces it and at subsequent meeting they have to they have to do the hearing so we're probably you know a few months out from it being put in place but maybe in the March April time frame will'll be be digital if if that's the direction we go yeah and so I had um sent an email to all of you um suggesting that we um leap into the 21st century and and and do do this um you know without all the plans um and and putting the staff reports um online as well um I think everyone was supportive Ted um you know said that he like copies of the plans which we we would be able to give you um and everything else I mean I would simply um as Charles brings his iPad I would you know feel free to bring your your PC log on while you're here um and and then read everything on the computer U read it at home whatever you want to do um that's that's what I would do I would just bring my own PC here and and and pop it open for the duration of the meeting um there's just there's like too much paper and too much stuff going back and forth it's a lot of work for staff and um as you can imagine U if you've ever been back in planning and Engineering their filing cabinets B filing cabinets of plans and and there's there's a limited amount of space for them so um yeah I'm would be very much in favor of reducing it to the maximum extent possible if it's 10 uh from 25 that would be great um and and having the staff Reports online uh so that you know as soon as they are available you can read them at your leisure not necessarily a day or two before the meeting and whenever you have time and then you'll have access to everything at the meeting I know Pete has told me he often prints out the um um plans on what um 11 by 17 11 by 17 which gives enough resolution to see the plans and and the detail without having the huge thing hitting the microphones and things like that well you can also print out the aspects you need you don't need every page of oh sorry nobody wants to hear me anyway um so you don't need every PL every page of a plan also traffic reports I mean nine times out of 10 you don't need all the data you just need the conclusions so don't need hard copies of the en environmental traffic I mean that's easy enough to read yeah online usually they're 8 and 1 half by 11 reports anyway so yep so yeah no it's it makes it a lot easier and you you kill a lot less trees so I never read the environmental report because I know they're going to find anything that will derail the application if they did they won't report it and I think as we move forward we can um you know if if if there's I mean I can certainly bring my laptop I mean you know zoning board for example a lot of times there's homeowner applications somebody's coming with a deck or something they may not be ready with their computer but I can certainly have it here and put it up on the screen um if there are certain important sheets like if it's a subdivision or site plan um you know maybe we do provide you with 11 by 17 copies in front of you you know on certain key sheets just so you have it um you know again still a lot less paper than 60 sheets of two foot by 3 foot plans will the environmental commission still get a set of plans um unless well we'll have to we'll have to we'll have to have that conversation with them one one thought I have is I could always just keep the environmental commission copy of the plans as long as they're getting one yeah I I can talk to T about that about I don't have a laptop I have a just a desktop so yeah that capability yeah I'll I'll I'll have that conversation with them and find out what they need and that's why I said it could be 12 10 or 12 I mean there's there's a little bottom line is I don't think we necessarily need to figure out the number right now just I just wanted to get your general sense of if you want to move in that direction we'll fine-tune the number you know before it goes to ordinance I mean we've also seen the problem with you know people having extended leaves of absence for for whatever the reason box is filling up um this obviates that problem as well yeah I think the other thing too is you know it I mean there's pros and cons obviously it is sometimes easier to have the big plans you can go back and forth u i on a computer you can zoom in um but it is easier to read plans with hard copy but I in my opinion I think it's counterbalanced by the fact that you can you don't have to come down here grab it you can look on your computer on your couch you know while watching Netflix you can you can you can read my report while watching uh think oh boy American Nightmare there you go that's the one I just watched on the only thing I would I would say is you may want to also come up with a policy for people having electronic devices up on the dice because it's very easy to start to go off the reservation and to do your own research um I've had that happen before where you know all of a sudden I've got a board member who's like well I just pulled up the site on Google Maps and I'm zooming in and it's like hold on time out like if you're going to so we just need to make sure we have an understanding if you're going to have an electronic device and it's very easy to start doing your own research while you're up here you can't so um that's the one thing we just want to make sure we're all on the same page with yeah no that's that's a great Point um that's what the uh for what it's worth a zoning board already endorsed moving forward with this and actually working toward the goal of eventually making each of these seats a computer station and the town should put a computer on it permanently for Council for planning zoning to do just what he mentioned could be something on the screen that's being presented but you want to cross check something else at the same time and you can do it and if everybody's on the same system at least uh probably does something for uh yeah yeah we don't want you necessarily you know shooting off work emails while you're while you're supposed to be looking at the looking at the board but yeah I mean I assume council could use it too because council's packets are huge right I mean there not not as much not as much but still you you'd have a computer yeah but you have all the you know um warrants and all of the you know I assume that's still yeah more yeah many many of us um all of us have uh laptops and we tend to refer yeah rather than the print copies but we do get warrants but I mean that that's a great idea Bob because you know then everybody who's here whether it be planning zoning Council has a laptop at the station at you know at their desk at their place and then they just and the for the computers are standard if something breaks down there's there's less chance of a technical issue than if we all have four different computers and and whatever uh yeah no that was a good point yep I I'll so it sounds like there's support here so um yeah U I don't know if you need anything formal but no I think in the past with discussions like this I you know I'm seeing positive head nods okay it'll I mean technically the ordinance will because it's part of the development ordinance it'll come back to you for your referral so all right sounds good um let's move on to open public comment so um this portion of the meeting is for any comment not associated with um a hearing tonight since we have a hearing on the Jane Center if you have any comments there please wait till we open to the public um during that particular application hearing um otherwise I make a motion to open to the public for General planning comment second all in favor meeting is open for any general planning comments seeing no takers move to close second all in favor um and now um Jane Center pln 2300 011 good evening chairman and board members and congratulations to Mr Velo being reappointed uh my name is John Duca of the firm Boris golden FY vanolo Heyman install I'm here on behalf of my client the applicant the Jane Center of New Jersey as the chairman mentioned this is application pln 23 000011 uh we are seeking amended site plan approval with with sign uh sign variances the property is located at 11 Cedar Grove lane block 46807 lot 45 which is located in the R40 Zone uh existing on the property right now is a house of worship we've previously appeared before the board a number of times uh it's been carried we've had quite extensive discussion about the archway and and the signs that we're proposing on that Archway and the alignment of of the driveway um Our intention tonight is to clear up what we previously discussed about the realignment of the driveway um it's still our position that that it was not a a condition of approval and Mitch ardman my my site engineer will will explain the historical um dive we did into the previous applications before the board the resolutions before the board Communications between uh the township and the applicant and the county and uh We've also coordinated uh with um the planning director Mr Mark Healey who um I'm sure will have com comments about uh the the information that we uncovered so um without dragging on too much further uh the only other things I want to put on the record uh before I ask my witness to be sworn in and qualified as a a w uh an expert witness is that um we did have a number of exhibits that were identified I believe we got to exhibit uh a 4.4 and if we have any further exhibits that need to be ident IFI before the board I believe we'll pick up at A5 if I'm not mistaken correct okay thank you so uh with that in mind without further Ado if Mr armman could be sworn in and qualified as an expert if you say I say if we can we'll swear Yen again because you know uh it's been a while yeah exactly so if you raise your right hand you swear the testimony to provid us the truth all truth and nothing but the truth yes I do if you could state your name spell your last name and give us your address please certainly first initial F Mitchell armman Ard M 575 Route 28 in ritton uh professional engineer professional professional license planner and I've had the pleasure of being before this board many times and your licenses are both still in good standing correct yes they are we are good Mr chairman I agree thank you so so just one one thing in addition to what you said Mr um when we covered the actual plan itself of the archway um there were a number of comments when you first presented it um in terms of you know sign variances and things like that um maybe relocating the names or something on the archway to a different site where there would be more readable I think the board had a number of comments um if we could focus on those more so than and we we know it's an archway in the signage and you can obviously as a planner speak to the variance um case but um you know we we could maybe focus on those topics rather than than sort of um re redoing everything because we all have signed and sworn that we've heard of the previous testimony very good we're on the same page that was the plan to uh keep it you know to the point so as just as a general recap um So the plan includes the proposed uh Archway which is up on the screen that you see now which was previously uh put in as an exhibit it's a 56t wide 28t High it will incorporate signage um the archway itself does not require any variances the signs do um there's a sign at the top is for the Jane Center uh so that's um 57 square feet and then there are two donor signs one on each side of the at the bottom of each pillar 21 square feet each that's uh as you face the sign from Cedar Grove inbound as you go outbound I it's physically looks the same I don't don't have a reverse image but there is not a sign at the top there are two donor signs on the bottom as well they are also the 21 square feet so as you're doing the math if you add up those signs that would come to 1412 square feet so 57 up top and four 21 square foot signs um and with five total signs so those would be the variances that we're looking for uh we are technically in the R40 Zone here so 125 square foot sign is permitted I did give planning proofs on my original um testimony I'll kind of recap those but in in short we felt that it fit well uh with the site obviously you're well aware of the commercial across the street which is permitted and has numerous signs so we didn't feel that it would be overs signage for this area of the township and uh create create an impact to the traveling public or the master plan um and that was and I can kind of rehash some of that um planning criteria I did but that was the gist of it that we we felt it was welld designed that it it it especially the design of the arch which the signs go with kind of mimic the style of the Jane Center and it's culturally appropriate uh for what they have on site there um the other portions of the application are that the radiuses in and out of the drive will be driveway will be enlarged to 25 ft and that'll uh help the Turning movements in and out of the project a sidewalk along the full Frontage and also plantings as well there'll be plantings along the full Frontage site plan quick enough this was the rendered site plan that was also uh a marked exhibit and um yes yes previously marked uh so well landscaped um we were in agreement that over time it was not well landscaped long Cedar Grove and Mr Thomas has noted with that and we took no exception to that characterization we will add Landscaping there I as well as Landscaping in the rear uh the wooded area those are the residences uh that are behind us to the West as as well as the second pocket here again there's an easement cutting through that's why there are no plantings in this area here that's the uh Texas uh gas line so it can't plant in that area Mr hel had asked at one point for us to um instead of just generally give the plantings uh to be specific but when I did look back at the plan that was submitted we actually had some specific numbers on the trees that would be planted in both of these pockets and the only note was that for a field visit with Mr helier staff to see the most appropriate places in those woods the Place those trees uh so that was the uh the plantings along the front there were some requests from the board um one of the ones that we did agree to again that was brought up was that the front caretaker building has really no landscaping around it it will be much better screened with the uh plantings along Cedar Grove but we did agree to put foundation plantings fully around the the caretaker building as well uh that's not on this plan that would be a condition um didn't want to add this because this is an kind of approved exhibit already and so that was pretty much um the discussion uh we had regarding a recap of what we have um and what is proposed the next part we'll get into is the history a little bit and as John said Mark was good enough to we Doven our files he Doven his just to make sure the facts were the facts and we weren't going going off and I think we had agreement on that the year 2000 is when we were first before this board it was my former partner he presented we got planning board approval and on that plan Thomas remembered the driveways were aligned resolution had some discussion on that but it wasn't what I would call a separate condition where you L conditions at the end it was a condition only in the fact that it was on the site plan in that way it was though subject to County review and approval and that's where the shift came and as we checked our notes and what was in there uh there was a county review comment about shifting that because of drainage and inlets uh and other restrictions in the county right away so they were okay with the driveway being off center from the Cedar Grove um shopping center across the street street that shopping center had been in there already so that alignment was known that's where that came from and one of the memos from engineering staff at the time concurred that yeah the county has jurisdiction do not always appreciate the County's jurisdiction there um but nevertheless they they had final say and they they're the ones who asked us to shift it when we went through compliance uh for Planned sign off on there that that's how the driveway was shown not aligned but shifted uh to comply with that County comment so that final stamp plan we get at the end of compliance showed the driveway shifted to the South where it was physically built um at the next time that the uh the board saw this plan was I believe 2006 we came with a construction phasing plan uh that's was going to as it stated build it and phase it on that plan it was shown as the compliance plan was not aligned with across the street and subsequent to that is when the county came in and did their roadway improvements uh additional RightWay additional pavement width and the turning lane that's in front of the shopping center as well as this property which has helped the traffic flow out in that this area yes traffic has increased also but it's definitely helped um the flow in this area so uh that widening held done by the County held this position uh that we have shown here 2012 then um we went to the TRC and with a plan because at that time um if the county work was done or not the um Jane Center was looking to wiid and improve this uh the intersection themselves and as part of that I'm not sure who gave the direction if it was a town to look again or not was to look back to realign that driveway since we were widening that and that plan um was approved at as far as TRC goes but it did not go forward as you know um it never went ahead that was 2012 2013 was the solar application so there were going to be basically carport ports within the parking lot and solar on top of those car ports that solar uh did show the potential for the realignment of the driveway back to um cross from across the street so lined up with across the street again that project did not go forward and in 2021 October 2021 uh the Jane Center decided uh to abandon the thought of uh widening and and realigning the driveway with across the street I believe with their operations they have which they've seen with the county turn Lan in the widening um felt the um full widening of the driveway was not required the realignment one is not required what would help though is what we show on this plan which is making those driveway radiuses better to help get off the roadway a little quicker but the driveway itself seems to function the go through with Betsy Dolan what her testimony was on this last time and reviewed her traffic report um and I think on the record she put that was her summary that it was relatively uh low Peak traffic uh levels coming in and out in the times of the major Peak which is a condition of this site as well as most of your temples and churches in town is going to be uh you know police directed during those High holidays here you know so I have a I have a question and and you just alluded to it so the so also the last point in in Mark's report so the 2012 2013 solar field that has obviously long since been abandoned um since it's been abandoned any condition of approval about realigning the driveway cannot be enforced because he's been abandoned my question is is that abandoned the applicant has no intention of connect correct connecting or um constructing a solar field because you see where I'm going with this right you wouldn't want to move a driveway and an arch right and reopen this can of worms understood um at this time and they can if need be yeah there's there's no plan for the solar um yeah we wouldn't want to move a driveway and an arch that is correct uh but again we feel that the driveway works so we could argue if we had to at that time that would be a condition of approval we'd have to seek relief from I think we're saying there's no technical condition of approval at this time to see at this time though no plans at this time that's pretty it's open-ended yeah I don't see it happening if they haven't built the solar to this point um I think what happened with some of those carport solar you know without the srex back in the day there you know there there's um not the financial expert on it but we've had enough clients there there are tax benefits there are ways to make the solar work but the construction costs for the car ports are are high relative to the bang for your buck with with the amount of so you get with it so well the is moving to make ground mounted solar probably the most financially rewarding rather than roof mounted solar and things of that nature I mean there's there's two outcomes if you ever did decide to do a solar field the one is what you just mentioned which you know you bring it forward and say look this driveways functioning perfectly fine um and then these the other outcome that you know we agree with you when we don't even bring that up so e either way um the only the only way it would happen or have to happen is if we then the planning board continued to maintain that the driveway should be reigned and and brought that up um who knows if this ever happens in the future 10 years in the future um we we may all be you know in Florida you know so uh it doesn't you know it might not matter I just want to bring up one point in connection with this and and you know I don't understand why this research couldn't have done have been done before the application was presented as a board member I know I may be getting old but I'm not seen all the driveway was originally approved lined up and I would like that to be clear to the attorney and to the applicant I have no knowledge and no board member has any knowledge if it goes to the county and they make a change it we don't get copy so we don't follow the applications through to uh completion in that sense my understanding however is that the county made a comment about the drainage not a recommendation not a requirement so to me it indicates the applicant was pretty willing to change it because it was was being changed uh there's no reason you can't construct a driveway with new drainage they do it all the time has no nothing to do with anything that has to do with the project but at some point the decision was made to do it the way you wanted to do it and the heck with the approval because the latest approval that you have has the driveway lined up if it doesn't line up and we obviously as a chairman explain uh the approval expired so the condition expired so I don't know if that means that we have the option to do anything with it or it stays the way it is at this point in for the first time in 30 years I'm getting to the point where I don't care right that would be a benefit to the people who use this facility right there's a secondary benefit to the driving public but the driving public isn't pulling out making left turns and pulling in making left left turns and fighting the traffic from 4 to 6 and 7 to 9 if that's the way you want it obviously this is not one we're going to end up win winning and it's not worth it but I want to make it clear I was not crazy I was not picking on an applicant which came back to me and in in no uncertain terms through different channels that driveway was supposed to be lined up the latest approval shows it aligned with the one across the street by even your traffic expert admitted it would be a safer better solution but she defended what you have on the plan as is her job that's that's my comments thank you Mr Thomas if I could just briefly respond there's never been any accusation that you were senile if anything I think you're probably the sharpest person in the room because when many people missed that there was previously a proposal to align the driveway you were the one who remembered it and perhaps the reason that this research was not done upon the initial submission is because everybody else forgot and as an applicant's attorney it's my obligation to Advocate on behalf of what my my client proposes so I dug into the history and discovered that based on the legal standard it is not a requirement for my client to move the driveway so I have an obligation to advocate for that but there's no you know I'm not at no point were we intending to disrespect or bmer or cast any accusation that you misremembered or anything like that I'm not asserting that it came to you but I live in the community I have contact and and many people have contact with me and you know words get said and things this why I'm going out of my way to make sure that it's accurate this was not some figment of my imagination that I pulled out of the sky this was something real and it was imposed um so so it's I just want to you know put on record a legal opinion so we have Mark's report we have your testimony on balance Peter um do you believe that um you know what's your opinion in terms of the disposition of the alignment of the driveway I guess at this point it seems I mean you have the original approval that called for the alignment of the driveway you have the intervening uh County comments that indicate that there's an inlet and the driveway could conceivably be relocated to address that issue um that was followed by the applicant the applicant's uh revised site plan was then approved by the township so at that point you have a Township sign off on the plan um that the applicant seemingly can rely on um you know whether it's an administrative change or how we characterize it um that's what they had going forward um you know so if if that occurred and and certainly none of us were I don't think we have anybody here who is privy to that actual interaction U but we do have a signed off site plan that shows the relocation the driveway um at this point if that's the case and what they're coming in for is ostensibly a signed variance I don't know that there's a causal connection between that signed variance and the a new condition to relocate the driveway that would be capable of being imposed by the board that's that's essentially what I see and Mr chair if I could speak to that and I obviously defer to Peter on on particularly his advice that he just gave the board just now but um just to piggyback a little bit on what Bob said I mean it's it's clear that the driveway was supposed to be aligned originally or at least that was on the plans that was presented to the board and approved by the board um as Mitch testified and as indicated in my report subsequent to the board's approval during compliance it got shifted Mitch has test testified that that's based on a comment by by the county um and that uh alignment was what um presumably the county ended up approving and again that's what was on the signed off plans from the town and then we have two subsequent approvals in 2012 from the two from the TRC and the 2013 solar that reflected moving them back um but neither of those move forward so the reason I bring up that summarize that history is if somebody was to come to me now and say even if it wasn't part of this hearing the Jane Center is in violation of their approval my answer would be no because just by the basis you know the history and the facts now that we've looked into it I couldn't say that their 2000 approval is in violation because even though it was on the original plans by the time it got to sign off I couldn't go to a judge and say judge they're in violation of their site plan because the applic the pl of or the defendant attorney is going to go your signed off plans has it misaligned and again the two other ones where they're going to whether it was on you know whether the chain Center wanted to realign them Andor the township was telling them we need to realign those driveways the 2012 and 2013 plans again I'm repeating myself but hav't haven't moved forward so we can't enforce something that on a project that never moved forward you know I did say just I'll finish by saying with regard to the solar I'll just say on the record and indicated in my report if the chain Center decides tomorrow to move forward with those solar my opinion is that's a condition of the approval because that's what was on those plans and if they wanted to keep the driveway like this they're going to have to come back to the board for the solar for relief of condition thanks Mark could we realign the driveway or require realigning the driveway now when it appears that it the the existing alignment was as a result of County Action it is a county road I think Peter spoke to that I think well I I think what uh Dr Chase may be asking is whether or not you would even have the ability to do it if you wanted to if the county would essentially step in and say listen T planning board you guys are great we love you but it's our road and and your ideas are wonderful but that road staying where it is ultim ultimately death that's a good question that's a good important point I mean the road is sum under Somerset County jurisdiction so I mean that's kind of like going back to the 2000 approval at the end of the day if the count driveway is going to go where the county wants it to go so chairman I have a comment uh since this uh matter came up uh I've been kind of riding some of the roads and uh found U many such intersections are misaligned in fact the one of the worst being the uh CV the yeah the CVS drugstore on Schoolhouse Road and the um Dunkin Donuts opposite to that that is the worst misaligned intersection far worse than what we are talking about and just one example I think there are many uh such alignments uh throughout the town um so I don't think this particular intersection as the traffic report indicated is such a difficult one yeah I mean I mean you're right and and you know there's also as Peter pointed out um and and just maybe something I can expound on in case any board members kind of missed it uh there there is some linkage right so I mean if they if they were coming for a large expansion of the church that created more traffic there would be more of a a causal connection to the realignment that we could make a case for a sign on the other hand does not um create that type of of linkage so nor does a solar field I might but in any rate that that's that's that's topic for perhaps another another day or year but um essentially there's there's there's no there's no defensible way and Mark Mark said this as well um to sort of to sort of Link this particular request or this application to a need to Reign the driver so I think we probably beat that horse into submission um can we hear more a little more so based on your testimony Mitch want to basically keep the arch the way it was uh you do not want to relocate the names of donors or something I think might have been Bob or somebody in the board if my mem recollects I'm not a sh as Bob but um I I uh recall there was some talk of like a garden or something where you could read the names and people could appreciate it and not be on an archway kind of like you know zipping by in a driveway you know he's going to get out of the car and say oh wow I I my name's there because I donate so um you know I was just wondering I that was a comment that I recollect I mean I don't think the signs themselves which I'd like you to refresh our memory a little bit about the area um they include you know like most signs kind of a a an area right but the actual sign is really not occupying all of that area you know what I mean so how much that 141 square feet is actual sign and how much is border maybe or something like that I'd like to hear a little testimony on that but is it your stance that you want to maintain the archway the way you've designed it on the plant that's correct we we did kick around with the the applicant the Jane Center or any other place um you know on the proper it all and and it's really the preference to keep it as we have it designed I felt it was kind of cohesive the way it is now and gives the respect to the donors in that location okay so yeah onto the onto the actual signs and sure and you're going to put your planner hat and tell us why this is a um you know um an approvable variance but uh before you do that just a little bit of of sort of detail around the sign I'd like I'd like to understand so we detailed basically on the top sign kind of the Box around uh the full wording there I should let me just box him out and the same on on the bottom signs is kind of the inset box there to come up with the size I just want to make sure I I get my plan as well so I don't missp I think it's on my laptop but I still have hard copies too [Applause] yeah yes I'm looking at sp1 on our set and that that does outline uh the areas just as I described to you those boxed areas so it's um the the bottom ones would be 7 feet by 3 feet each and the the top one is um 2.6 feet time 22 feet and that's how we uh come up with those areas again on sp1 in their set MIT you are you able to tell us the size of the lettering by any chance so the lettering on the top um it's about 2/3 of of that F uh 2.6 feet Dimension so it's a little 1.8 feet so it it would bring that size down um realistically about you know 12 to 14 feet it would bring that 57 square foot sign down so no that's fine I just wanted the board to sort of like this is a great um exhibit because it um um I assume you're testifying that this is what it will indeed look like um and and it gives the board a pretty good um idea of the dimensions and and actually what what what lettering occupies the Dimensions like you said um of of the Box um that you would draw around it Mitch can you also remind the board uh how far back the archway is set from uh the property line and from the curb line yeah so we made sure it was set back far enough uh because as we also testified there'll be a gate associated with it so that if somebody pulls off the roadway that there's there's room to pull off the roadway and it is set 40 41 ft in so too cars or a larger truck enough to pull off but the idea is it's going to be open during the day during hours closed at night so people aren't pulling in parking in the back on the property that shouldn't be there a couple other questions I was reminded of there was discussion of a sidewalk from the RightWay to the facility and there was also a discussion of the timing of the lighting uh um I believe they're externally lit um um and then you know when that cuts off and or what the hours of those lighting are can you d press those two points sure I think the cut off was going to be 10 10:00 for the the lights to be off and then for the sidewalk we we did take a look at if we were going to run a sidewalk from Cedar Grove into the property um it would be a couple hundred feet you know we did review with the applicant everybody's driving here basically they didn't see a big need for it we know the board does look for connectivity on on projects and has asked for it um while while it's possible to do you know it's not preferred to to put the sidewalk and as as we don't see a strong need for it for this project if if we were to put it in we would need to balance our impervious because we are maxed for not toor too much but for small projects like this just being into storm water I don't think the client would mind if they had to put a dry well in somewhere that was the old days the new days days you have to go and kind of redesign the whole world so we would probably need to take out a handful of parking spaces offset that impervious I did check we do have about eight additional stalls per uh code requirements it would not require a variance that would be effici to offset the impervious if it was a condition of approval um but I appc doesn't feel it I don't think taking out parking spaces with the use that when you get peuse there is probably a great great idea Charles isn't here tonight but I'll bet I can guess where he was going with this and you know you're right I mean there's there's not like somebody's not going to say probably oh I'm going to use a sidewalk and I'm just going to go to the Jane Center unless there's an event and then the gates going to be open the driveway is going to be open how would a pedestrian potentially navigate that would they be able to walk on on the driveway probably not with cars there too I mean just what it would be a pedestrian access during an event I I mean this is not a drug store or a convenience store or something where people are going to say well I'm going to walk there and pick up a gallon of milk you're not going to go there unless there's an event or some reason to go so what's The Pedestrian access when that occurs so if it does occur again coming off the new theer Grove going to walk along the path along the driveway it's a lawn a it's not paved but you would come just you know past the caretaker area and then there's a a drop curb here by these handicap spaces you would cross the driveway and and come into the project there would be over a lawn area again in many cles of of worship when there's overflow and somewhere people do come offsite from any number of directions I don't if it was going to be a beaten path regularly then co-chair would say you want to see that I understand but um we also don't see know well somebody is here for a long event they're going to want to run across the street and get a bite or a drink or something well they're not running across there's no crosswalker Crossing on Cedar Grove up a bit of a distance to the signal and try and cross there and then back wouldn't encouraging but if we did have the sidewalk somebody hop scotch on Cedar Grove I mean I know having driven by just accidentally I guess when there was an event and you know it is police officer controlled and it is driving is n so in my estimation balancing the impervious by taking out eight spaces for the off chance that there would be some pedestrian let's see some somebody came in from out of town was staying at one of the hotels like I'm I'm off a a pierce or whatever and and wanted to walk down there maybe maybe that happens is it worth eight spaces probably not in my estimation but I mean I'm one person the board can feel free to you know think differently but if they're walking that far there's probably sections they're walking across lawn and sections anyway so a little bit another section does anyone know whether there are sidewalks in front of the property to the North and the South to the South are the uh tow houses that were built recently that that does have a sidewalk um I think there there are gaps as you keep going all those properties weren't developed and I'm pretty certain to the north to experienced on Cedar Grove but I probably well there there are sidewalks where working their way up from eastn Avenue but uh I agree with the chairman on this in in the sense that you know maybe that sidewalk should be left up to you when this institution first started operating uh there were tons of people that parked in the shopping center and across the street to go to the facility that doesn't happen anymore if it was happening now then I could say okay maybe need a sidewalk but I think that should that they that there should be a trade off there should be more invested in landscaping and and not worry about the That Sidewalk that basically only affects there that's something that really only affects the people that use that facility uh and in line with that Landscaping I was going to ask if you would consider when you Landscaping the the house uh you [Music] mentioned caretaker Foundation PL Care Foundation plants I don't know if was this board or the zoning board but we had a warehouse approval on Weston Road where they have a plant of Vine that grows up the walls of and they're putting it on the warehouse it it it's called a green wall and it doesn't hurt the sem it doesn't take any real maintenance but it covers that vast expanse of nothingness that is the caretaker's house which might be more valuable than Foundation plants so if if I could I I would like you to consider doing that and if it's possible do it it's not something that's going to add maintenance probably less maintenance than Foundation plants and it will cover the side of that building that faces the street which is basically what what everyone sees we don't see the beautiful facility in the back we see the the a concrete box that's all what I might say and I'm not an expert on those but it's somewhat familiar we've talked around those in the office with some Architects we work with I think part of that is TRS you put up or you designed for to go like integral to the building if if that's your intent I might say I'm just showing on the on the screen here that we could probably add a couple of ornamentals and maybe a larger besides just Foundation if your intent is to screen that side of that building more that we could work that I just wouldn't want to commit to it and then say Oh that you know because there are some vines that I don't want your commitment other than to investigate ways to hide the wall a little bit that it's it's intrusive I mean there's no other way of putting it I I think that's fair and if if I can just remember a little more about the application of which the chairman was referring they were this bald L realy on uh Western Canal Road they would have wires from top to bottom of the facade and the the vine would go up the wires they want something that wraps around a wire rather than something that puts stickers on a wall but it's rather more of a an operation than having some ornamentals that will grow just bushes that you can plant and that will maybe grow 10 12 feet high or whatever it would take to largely ameliorate the blank wall it be a lot simpler take a little longer to grow maybe but just consider something a little more original that that does screen it a little bit the other thing is I'm assuming your plan now includes a full complement of Street trees which are totally missing on half for the okay agreed and that that's in the original set yes what which original set no the one that's submitted as part of this application okay so it's a condition or yeah it's on the screen just confirming it no problem learning it pays to confirm y so our our plant list is on SP2 and it's it's it's fully documented and the so the what's on the screen the the darker green circles are the proposed additional trees and shrubs whereas the ones that are lighter are the are the existing so they're showing basically how they're filling out the the frontage with trees and shrubs maple trees I have a question with reference to the parking spots and relating it to the sidewalk have there been any occasions where the all the parking lots spots rather have been filled and there's an overflow yes filed so what what happens to the Overflow where do they go in park yeah so I I can that I'll have to refer directly to the client but discussions that we've had before then those are the same days that there's police control out there that there's uh arrangements made to bring some in by by Van from other from other sites from other parking lots that you have so so my concern is um you know I haven't um but there are other houses of worship where festivals happen and all the spots are filled so the Overflow goes and finds the cars you know probably in this case across the street right park where the shopping center is I'm I'm it's an assumption just work with me you can knock me down later then you would need a sidewalk right because if they go across then You' need a sidewalk for safety reasons that's where I'm going with it because I've seen it happen in other places so there's a concern there um so I say it with that in mind sure and I think applicant would say and I think Mr Thomas noted that 10 years or so ago when they started and were up and rolling that that did happen sometimes but since they've been more controlled they organize the events with your with your Township Police and that has not been an issue lately and back to the fact we we don't want to encourage crossing right there either on Cedar Grove so it's it's a balance so I I I think and applicant can talk or the board members is that in the in the past few years that has not been a problem where overflow takes up um neighboring properties where they're not supposed to be I just maybe you know somebody can address it what happens to the Overflow where do the cars go even with the police control where do they go and park if I could just s in quickly again raise your right hand thank you do you s the testimony you're going to provide us the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes and if you could state your name spell your last name and give us your address please my first name is m m i h i r last name sha s h a h so to answer the question is most of the times whenever we have big events and throughout the year we have about three or four big events where you know the all parking is filled up so we make the adjustment arrangement with the nearby workship like we have a mosque uh couple of Street down we have a another Temple further up and we run the shuttle services from that parking to our parking to make sure that you know people are not walking on the street or just crossing the street which is not supposed to be okay at the same time we also are for the County Police to be on the street to ensure that no one Parks across the street because yes this was a bigger problem when we started the operation but you know we have learned that it's not the right way of doing it so we ensure that you know we have this police coming in and making sure that if pist are parking the car there and walking it across they stop them there right there okay thank you thank you any other the board members have any comments or questions if not um we will open to the public and then you can you can finish finish up sure all right I'll make a motion to open to the public for any comment on this application all in favor I I meeting is open to the public for any any comment you're not a member of the public you're you're part of the applicant thank you was all right seeing no one coming for that isn't in part associated with the application um move to close okay all in favor I'll keep my closing statements brief obviously we're here uh seeking amended site plan approval uh with sign variances those sign variances are a number of signs and uh the the size of uh the area of those signs um you've heard extensive testimony over the course of several hearings uh about how this these signs will look how the arch rail will look uh it's it's our belief and position that this is going to be a beautiful Archway it's going to beautify the area we are providing more landscape buffering we are providing a sidewalk along Cedar Grove Lane we're hoping to improve the area beautify the area and for that reason we seek your approval tonight thank you Mr chairman it may help for us since this has gone over or may help you I think or the board in the form of a motion to go over some of the different conditions that have been discussed over the various meetings yeah sounds good Peter do you want to take a shot at that I've SE I've seen you I've seen you I mean I can start I me I mean obviously there's the um there's a landscaping the landscaping that's reflected on the plans there's the sidewalk uh that's reflected on the plans and the other just generally the other improvements that reflected on the site plans before the board um they did mention turning the lights off at at 10:00 um there was um the discussion on on the land scaping I mean need help on the exact wording I mean I think in a general sense they they've agreed to add additional Landscaping um in the number of they've proposed Landscaping in the back of a certain number and I think the comment was basically that there might be um there might be a better placement of it based on the current gaps that are out on the site and maybe and that could be based on a site visit to determine the exact locations with the numbers to be the number and size of the Landscaping to be commensurate with what's on the plants it's a matter of Shifting them around and finding the best places um also I believe there was related to Landscaping there was a resident here of the new townhouse development who raised a concern so I think maybe instead of placing them here maybe we look at some locations where they adjoin the tow houses to see if there are some gaps that could be filled in um that's what I have yeah I don't have much more than that I have one I'd like to add uh the Landscaping the sidewalk and the extra improvements should all be completed before the arch is constructed oh we forgot the and we forgot the the Landscaping in front of the caretaker house right so I I think the I think in general the sense we were going the board was going was uh da needs to make more of an effort more than just Foundation plantings whether it's the screen that um Bob Thomas spoke of Andor some um you know bigger plants in the form of trees as well to screen the uh ornamental trees um more than just Foundation plantings and the other part be let's say of that condition I think will resolve uh the issue we had with the Aline driveway historically unfortunately we give approvals and it takes years for them to come to fruition once the arch is started I don't care when it gets started or how soon or how late but the construction should progress steadily toward completion not excavate come back a year later start building something else so that this construction of the arch is done over a short and economical period of time as possible I'm going to call that contemporaneous if if I'm can make one comment um the regarding the lighting turning off at 10 that is that is the plan throughout the year except for eight um years where there there are special religious events that go to midnight that they would keep them on because there will be eight days eight days eight days not Years days eight years fig yeah did I say years you did eight days per year yeah yeah eight days per year those lights will not be on for eight years straight be a problem all right so um I'll let me see if I can um sum this up with some language so um move to approve of the archway uh with the enhanced Landscaping the screening of the caretaker's house um the the applicant will investigate ways to do that um that include or may include larger plantings um that substantially um reduce the um appearance of the blank wall um the sidewalk in front not not not a Redway so we're we're not going to require you to do that um the lighting will cut off at 10 p.m. um except for the eight days a year um with the special religious events in which it will cut off at midnight um the construction of the um Landscaping the scening of the caretaker's house sidewalk um and other improvements associated with this will be done in a contemporaneous manner um and and not um staggered uh inappropriately with large amounts of time before and I would add to that that before any sort of a construction approval or final approval is U made on the archway um that the township um staff should ensure that all the other improvements associated with this U particular motion are are have been made I don't know you don't need a CO for an archway but I assume you need some sort of sign off and at that sign off the township will say do you have your Landscaping do you have this do you have that and it'll all be don't get the archway signed off without doing all the rest and that's uh that's a motion I have I second it councilman and Barson yes door Chase yes Robert Lort yes Jennifer ragno Yes Mah Rafi yes Robert Thomas yes Rebecca Hilbert yes chairman orini yes thank you very much thank you for um doing the the right thing in investigating all the stuff we asked you investigate um appreciate um anything else we have tonight Mark Christine if not um I will move to jurn Second all in favor have a great night