##VIDEO ID:K2QOVSJ3IRY## uh welcome to the regularly scheduled August meeting of the frankco township dist preservation advisory commission this meeting has been uh properly noticed in accordance with the open public meeting act 1975 uh this meeting will be recorded for rebroadcast on the Township's YouTube channel uh and with that I call the meeting to order uh I will start with uh attendance uh around the table we'll start with Bob Mt here uh Nancy honstein here myself Andrew buan Dominic stanion here Anthony ganam here and Patrick shabala here so we do have a full Quorum uh with our staff Caron Vin domic uh we have a few things to get through tonight so let's get right to it um 62 Laurel a fence replacement come on too sit down see we're formally been to a historic meeting before my first so tell us a little bit about your house and your project so the fence that was there when we bought the house last year is falling down so the neighbors want us to replace it apparently it was C up by somebody in that house before us but it's a 7ft tall fence so your fence recommended a 6ft tall fence so it's exactly the same except for 1T shorter and it's just and it's going in the same exact spot it looks exactly the same I think it's going exactly on the property line and in the same correct spot and it looks exactly the same only new so uh I'm sorry I should have started with this what what is your name just for thank you so so in the um photos you submitted this is the existing fence I'm assuming yes yeah and there's two two uh sides there's two sides of back and the front and that's a 7t fence and then this is what you want to replace it with this stock fence so it's the same it's just in the one side it's the I think it's the side in the back but I could beong where it say on the survey chaining fence on one side wood fence on the other side and the back has half a fence so like this is wood fence here and that is wood fence and that's what youring yes exactly what is there and then the chain okay okay this is Prett anybody have any questions no um any any conversation on this before he open it the public uh seeing no additional uh questions or comments from the commission is anybody from the public want to make any comment on this application nobody's coming forward so does anybody want to make a motion I'll make a motion to AC that so the court is the motion is to accept that submitted second and second is sh all in favor I any oppos that was easy thank you so now what do I do next the have you have you submitted for your zoning permit yeah I did that before this and then I will tell them tomorrow so you're approved you can install whenever you want and thank you for being very easy super easy great okay thank you byebye great thank you next application for this evening is for First Street anybody hear from for First Street come on now long lost Mr L been a while sir how you doing for the record Peter Lanford appearing on behalf of Mr Ross back who is the property owner uh very briefly uh we have a pending application before the planning board tomorrow night to subdivide uh the property in question there's an existing house on the property we're going to be proposing to build a new house uh Mr rossback lives there with his wife and three kids he's going to build a new house for himself and then either sell or rent the existing house uh the house itself is located 725 ft from the canal uh it is not visible the proposed house is not visible from eastn Avenue let alone the canal uh there are two houses uh on First Street prior to reaching this property uh if you look up Maxwell Street which is across the way uh again it is it is not visible from Maxwell Street so uh we can describe the house and everything but as far as an impact on the canal not this is the document where missing right yeah yeah all right you don't have a copy with you do you what what do you need everything everything Vince lost it they talk uh here is here is a set of the subdivision plan uh which and I got I have another one so I I think I have another one with me so is this subdivision um is it subject to any variances or any other requirements or is it straightforward well there there are two variances the the lot is 16 the New Lots are 16,000 Square ft each which is the prevalent lot size in that area uh and the property has a pipeline uh going through it so the house will be uh less than 100 ft from the pipeline so that requires a variance surve that's just the pl plan is there a is there a location plan this package that shows in relationship to the now what it's just a general plan if you look at the first page um we have E Avenue between this we let me walk over there uh this is basically eastn Avenue this is the property there's houses right in here uh and so um I'm going to say something bold but I want to look it up in Google M first okay where's the uh pipeline that's CL through there the pipeline as you see runs right through the property on this side and the proposed subdivision um oh I see okay so yeah the existing house the new house and so we're here right that's pretty much where it is yeah this is E Avenue Y and then this is Rucker prep over here yes and there's some houses over here uh ruers prep yeah down here right well ruers prep owns these houses over right they own these houses y um and this is a little bit up on the bluff right yep and there's absolutely zero visual impact from the canal or to E Avenue Corridor yeah right so we're up right there you can't see so um I'm going to say something that I've never said before but I don't think we need to look at it no it it falls within the district but eastn Avenue is a funny animal for us cuz we draw very straight line all the way across that all encompassing from the canal but um this to me has no impact on any of the historic resources um but that's up to discussion that's just my two cents absolutely how about the house that's on the property anything or just regular house it's a regular house a regular Ranch 19 586 I know there was a big one in there that area by definition St no so so against the the property subdivision is not they have the variances that that Mr lford described but there's nothing that's going to impact potentially saving the house so um if this was a normal application we would have to parse this out for a demolition request then a subdivision request and then a new construction request but um my determination basing on where it's located is it's outside of our you know resources that I concerned with Y I agree I agree yeah 100% so the applicant get gets to pay PE some legal fees for tonight and you get to go home um so I I would say on this um this recommendation yeah is this a recommendation of zoning yes uh so so the recommendation for planning would be that uh we take um no action on this application all in everybody agreement with that yep anybody have any any public have any questions or comments on this application this one's like rapid fire it's good no all right um uh anybody want to make a motion as such I will since I'm going to see it tomorrow night actually I'm not sure that he should no he's he can can he's wearing a different hat he'll tell you if you're wearing separate hats you can all right so we have a motion the court do I have a second second Pat you're on fire tonight and then um the note on this one is that uh hpac takes no action on this application I'm going to send an email tomorrow so so that as we're sitting so I can't change my mind so I don't forget tomorrow see what I came up with pretty nice all awesome all right easy peasy thank you okay thank you are you staying for another one y woud all right um next application is uh 2414 mil Val pres mil Valley Fire Department uh located at [Music] um 2365 am this one will not be as easy um Pete lfred again appearing on behalf of the most District Department uh this is an application to construct a PO barn on the property to the right side of the property as you are facing it furthest away from the Del now uh the PO Barn is necessitated for uh as a result of some recent uh I guess issues in the canal where now this fire company needs to store equipment uh basically to for life safety issues uh in case there are problems in the canal which they've had to under take rescues over the past few years uh Mitch has prepared the plans we have the architectural renderings uh this project is being solely funded by the fire company who has to take a mortgage to to build this building uh Mitch has already been to the Delaware Canal commission who's reviewed this project and has recommended approval of it subject to Frank Township and County approval which we do not yet have I can have M now project yeah commission will come to us and were certified local government so um their blessing is nice but doesn't mean anything to say anything so it's it's the 2 acre property the existing uh Firehouse I have an aerial here as well is there a um yeah there was well there is one we submitted that that's not not part of the package the Reynolds group logo underneath there have one for that end the take two the and if you want to pass around this is the exhibit that we did uh even though you guys have your review on your study for the enr now commission that shows a picture of the existing building um so basically it's a 2ac lot as you're facing it on the uh the parking lot is on on the left side or the west side and it wraps around to the back and behind the building uh the driveway basically to access the doors for the emergency vehicles Straight Ahead off the road um there's County property around it to the north and east and the industrial and you can really see in the aerial that big old Bel industrial property is between us and the canal so again visibility of the canal is cut off by that building surrounding you do have the older single family houses across the street and the C church across the street and proposed which should be on next yeah that's it so basically a pobor type building 2884 Square ft and for yeah on nights like tonight the it's for rescue boat and other equipment and um that's what proposed as you said we were at submitted to the planning board Canal commission looked at it from from their jurisdiction uh about 300t the can okay uh the colors we we went back and forth two things with the canal commission a lot of drainage we work that out with them the second where they had questions on the colors also again you know we we have some historic and Architects on this committee uh we have plenty of reps from the fire from the rescue company here fire department they can you know chime in also uh but these are the the choice at this time for the colors on the addition um versus what's on the existing did you uh in the site plan um process did you consider any other locations on the site for this building I understand the need for proximity directly to am road yeah but um I mean I'm going to be very blunt it's not an appropriate building um and I'm wondering if site plan could have hit it better um it's a pre-fabricated metal build it is what it is um but you know you have kind of a classic firehouse and then you have you know small Warehouse building next to it so I mean which did you look at other safe plan options Yeah so basically in the on the back side that's that's in the back corner there there is a when you pull out all the blood Hazard lines and the DNR Canal setback lines that's kind of that that back section and and and these guys can talk for appropriate as for they need to get rescue they need to get out you know that's that's a priority on the site we even looked at one point about putting it behind the other and pulling it through right and it's just functionality wise there's a great change there it doesn't look like it but when you look at the slopes there's a couple feet drop off here um is it is it a significant cost difference doing this prefabricated building versus doing some kind of addition that's more sympathetic to times more Mone what about just doing the facade of this differently so that it them better with there the rest of the building we looked intoing the it is possible it is a great cost change to us and being a volunteer organization we do get some money from the town but we are saving our own money and raising money to build us building for the town and for Life Safety out of our own pockets and but believe me we're very sympathetic to that um that's what makes these kind of applications challenging because it's a Sho string budget but such a a benefit for the community it's it's inarguable um and you know we know what you're doing we know you what you want to do um which is tough if we change the colors to meet more a barn color to match the area I know there's a Red Barn up the road we turned to red and white to make it more visually as you pass look like a barn next to the Firehouse than a metal building would that be more suitable in your eyes to make it a little more EAS the barn up the street would be the metler barn the hor this looks like you go get your oil changed yeah well I mean yeah it but it is it's a vehicle it is matched the firehouse oh I know I kind of Ricky reddish varnish I mean and the other problem is if if you did do it let's just argument sake you make it another uh very large Gable fronted brick on the bottom building right next to it then they're like kind of at a scale to each other though they're competing in a different way yeah I almost like to see it like The Bard bat kind of a facade I mean it basically is it's vertic different color would be and they have that's that was an attempt we we had talk about several of those we I mean there are you're looking at this looking at this Bas so I I just different do I do want to go back to one of the leading things that you said as part of your presentation that it's not visible from the canal it's not all about the canal it's also about East Millstone and protecting the character of East Millstone as I understand we do and that's why I did mention the houses across the street the cathol church we realiz that the main piece of that bar look right there right have to peel her up the ceiling as far as colors this is the the company um I don't have a a board but the the red is is pretty bright red um there that yeah there is the Everlasting that one which isn't as red so what what color is this is is this that blue one or that is gray and charcoal we chose those colors Because the actual surrounding of the building besides the break hot in the front is gray final side gray painted concrete block down the one side so we tried to make it blend in with that so it wouldn't be such an eye sore as you saw going down the road these kind of buildings actually when you make them darker they stand out even more you almost want them could be white just make them go away right K you can see this from your bedroom window what do you think um yeah I kind of echo what you guys say it's a little I'm actually even curious Mitch did you guys even look at sliding this back in relationship because because you're holding this proud line to the front of the existing Firehouse if you pulled it back so it felt more like an accessory building and spin it around so the doors are Ian that's actually not a bad idea I mean even if you did the doors this way yeah there's no turning room again access coming out even if you brought that that prop side back you here bring it back you 15 F or so yeah so I'm just looking where the drop off is there but it's not cuz you're I guess you're doing underground storm water detection here yeah and you got one Outlet over here correct so be back where the slope is more on the parking lot this would just be in the lawn area pulling back the lawn still what if it what if it the storm water system was in the front um and then this was pushed back you could do those under pavement we believe me we looked at that storm water 12 different ways and worked with the canal commission it's just with the bad soils here and their restrictions out here could it go back I mean we can we can look at that there's some um the issue was is is the approach on and off of the pad if we flipped it around when out the back we would not be able to make the swing with the apparatus off the front gives us the ability to back in and off the pad without changing the entrance onto ml road which is a major ont this keeps this keeps the original pad of what's existing there and just adding on a side bump out which then doesn't uh disturb traffic or anything on the roadway or to County and you're putting you're putting your boat the boats in here boat the AR our our side by sides our drones our uh support Vehicles there's a lot of things that have that we need to get into that building cuz right now our Firehouse is overloaded and there's Alleyways to walk around things and this has been an ongoing thing and um like Mitch was saying dealing with the canal commission we went back in worked with the train systems multiple times and at one point they said we couldn't do it and they work together and I guess m said 12 times would give clean this up a little bit because it would give them better angle if you also look at the drawing there is a giant Christmas tree in front that's going to block that building and I is talking I think the other thing there is a little room in front that we can put some additional Landscaping they put small awning windows across the top and maybe paint the batens another color would that look too busy it it I think it would I I think you want this thing to disappear I don't think you want to call attention to it well I've seen one of these barns on South Middle Bush Road that was red and it that's where that uh church is going up or that Temple where that that old house burnt down on South Middle Road right by S there used to be yeah there used to be a Red Barn there and it was a metal Barn no it was a Dutch Barn it was a wood bar there was two barns there there was a wood barn in the back and then there was a metal barn and they sold both of them they dismantled them so maybe if they have Windows in there uh and do painted some type of a red or rust color said it looks like a warehouse not this right this this is just a sample is it yeah is there flexibility to match the doors yeah are so are those doors identical to what we have now but you got you got the double windows yeah that's yeah we can do the double window yes and then what about color on the door are you doing white door doors white doors it's going to match exactly what doors this drawing is from the um P company the doors are going to match exactly what's there okay if you if you did the you know double double windows you're have here yeah they do have window together and this building that we um trying to build is actually the same height as this there's no difference it's not going to stick over it it's not going to lower look identical the front um the this isas days same slide this back like that this would be shorter than building the propos is actually [Music] 23 so so Dom what I was just saying over there is if the building could be pushed back MH and disengages the front elevation yeah and and hear me out on this and I I know it's money and and I'm sorry to say it but what if you can write a check what if we what if we took this this in itself I heard that I'm not a lawyer though um this this is a very utilitarian box building it's got r on one face what if they did the same kind of veneer to the same point just to the bottom side of the game yeah and push it back do the brick veneer on the on one face do the rest of it as you know white or off-white metal I think it would be somewhat okay I I know that's adding cost but can I ask a question on this now you're saying offwhite or white the front the firehouse top is gray that's slate gray yeah match that so if we put okay back and see what the cost is I don't know it adds a lot know that that's why we went with what we had it's not a lot of square footage done I I I understand it adds cost but when I mean when you take the fact that you got your openings right you got two B openings we just saying is surround around the doors to that line just like this is if you're saying that you're about the same height the same that you're probably looking I'm sorry yeah something this right just talking about that's it it could even be a sythetic brick at that point um whatever is more affordable now this can all be brick here what happens if they have the same garage doors that's what we saying that would say the upper fa is to to mat to match one is vertical one is horizontal yeah with that same little uh vent up on the top that'll blend it right in of the little round yeah or whatever it is I don't even know if it needs that but you're right it blend it in it'll help for the appearance in the uh we're not the district we're trying to be sympathetic to the cost we just got to make itate yeah so I guess we're trying to balance speak for you guys so there's a cost shoving it back and there's a cost with the brick and all I we what's the cost of shoving it back with the grade change and deal with the drainage the drainage was just very difficult it back like 30 ft even with that we have a we we threaded the needle on this um like our drainage friends at the AR Canal but some of these small sites there's there's just almost no way to do it we're just been a are they actually going to count the porest papers as the perious count it as impervious but you get credit for the Dage I've had that fight with them before yeah most don't care so I what is everybody else thinking hey councilman sorry I was coming off from think V like you said and gave Len match the uh Firehouse consider the entrance to East mstone we do and this is totally um so um I guess where do you want to go with this you a vote on it or you want to make Provisions we we don't know well I I think you should vote on it and the reason I say that is we don't know whether what you're asking us to do is financially viable and you know I hate to say because we always try to work with with you but if it gets to the point where it doesn't make economic sense for us we're just going to go to the planning board ask for the approval not withstanding the fact that you made recommendations that we can't live with and we'll explain it to the planning board uh if if the other hand will this go to planning yeah is is what we're doing a recommendation plan I'm sorry on the other hand if they go back and think they can achieve some of the things you requested we'll do it but well I I think you're saying um well what I'm hearing from you is well vote on it CU if we don't like the answer screw you we're going to go to the next level it's not SC and what I'm saying is do you want to take an opportunity to look at what the revision costs are if there are any and come back I I could do that and if if if the costs are prohibitive I I'm not going to come back I'll just tell you they prohibitive and you're going to vote do what you need to do again I I we respect your your position uh but we have a hearing we don't have a hearing the application hasn't been okay so so so then then then that's good because then you can spend the mon figuring it out that's the best thing to do spend the next couple weeks figuring out what you do and tell us whether you're going to come back or you want us to vote at the next meeting make the I don't know how long it'll take them yeah however long it takes it doesn't matter weet we got a little bit of time but again we don't to be that much more just a little veneer here here here I mean I'm really talk and honestly after you put the veneer on it you may not even have to slide the building well that that was the question I had is you know you're you're asking us to slide the building back which is an expense plus put the veneer on which is an expense uh I also in talking to Mitch while you guys were talking I think there's an opportunity to landscape the front of the property uh in front of that building that that will that will also help uh block the building off uh so we we don't like to fully I appreciate that but we don't like to rely on Landscaping as our solution to things cuz deer eat it it dies nobody maintains it I'm not saying that that's going to be the case but that constantly happens let let us look at it and then we can either report back through Vince and say we could do the facade we can't move the building back or we could do everything uh but and I just wanted to say like you were here before and it was an eastn Avenue um perview because th000 ft of the canal East Millstone it doesn't matter how far it's East Millstone that we're represen we're not representing the canal I I understand that and and we understand that and and again if if this was a commercial developer with Deep Pockets we wouldn't be having this discussion uh but unfortunately these gentlemen work hard to raise the money to to to build this building they have to mortgage the property they don't have all of the funds we're very sympathetic we also have to we have other people to answer to as well I I agree with you and uh so let let us talk a little bit uh why don't you carry it till next month and if we're not ready next month I'll tell Vince we carry if you haven't made the application to the board yet yeah it's the time frame is isos not going to get to the board for several months so yeah take as much time application actually going to go in St perfect okay so just to clarify something this is the fire district right but you individually own the property the fire district leases the building from the fire department Millstone Valley Fire Department owns the property maintains the property and keep the property up so the township does not own or maintain the building it's all within your the district ranks the building for the apparatus rais money been raising money for years to put this addition on so the apparatus I'm just curious the apparatus belong to the township but you the yes got it oh man you brought us a hard man yeah and and and again we understand your concerns uh we don't take them lightly uh and it's a balancing act so we're going to go back and look at it even even look at the possibility of synthetic work or some kind of veneer that mimics that it doesn't have to be a true masonry I know there's I know there's affordable options and I'm saying affordable but still adds cost and I understand that thanks Pete okay thank you we we do appreciate your input you know we're not being adversarial we sure all right thank you okay we're going to table this till the next meeting when the app comes back probably exhibit no we will cost more money to reproduce absolutely all right thanks P sorry about that take care have a have a good night guys you got 2418 Kingson Presbyterian Church are you here yes we are awesome [Music] are you going to start with being a nonprofit organization it's a true statement I know good evening and and who are you gentlemen so I'm Brad Clifton I'm the treasurer of the kingsman Presbyterian Church I remember there probably over 35 years almost 40 years and and I'm Thomas Lee I'm an architect from belme New Jersey Thomas all right so tell us a little bit about your project okay um the members came to me and they had some issues with the back entrance of the church and what's happened with a lot of of these old older churches well the people used to walk down the street and they went in the front door well now that's not what happens there's a very large parking lot in the back and um that's where the people come in a lot of them are driven up to the back entrance they're let out and then they can go in there were some unusual things that took place when this rear Edition was done that was in 1955 and when I looked at the original drawings the building the actual addition was up and when they built it they put it down so the floors were the line oh in the basement so they did did an entrance on the outside where you Ste down two steps that's great for water infiltration well there's there's a lot of problems with that right at the moment there's a lot of moisture in that entrance the other thing is is there's a nice little standing seam roof on the back of that but it only covers about half the door there of the entrance where you step down the doors swing out you really it's it's not a good situation so what we were after this addition is not visible from anywhere except coming in from the back at the parking lot you can't see it from either side um basically what I'm trying to do is make this thing disappear the Mion for the windows and the roof overhang the fascia board that would be white to match what's on the original building now the glass would be very clear because I I literally want this thing to be people to be able to look through see the actual building behind it I don't want to change that material on the inside and the way it's done there's a very I tried to keep this thing as thin as possible a flat roof over this it overhangs on either side where the doors are the way you enter around the church one way comes in the other goes out so when somebody pulls up they drop somebody off it's right there on one side and when they pick them up and they leave it's on the other side if I could just cut you off for a second this is that is not it that is not that's correct that's it that's the original elevation got you got the wrong the wrong photograph yeah that's I was trying to match it up and I'm like that's not what I'm seeing okay so this is what so what we were trying to do is get the overhangs out far enough from the glass enclosure so people could get out of the cars be covered and also the Slate that we're doing in the floor on the inside and outside that would be heated so in the winter time if there's snow or there rain nobody has to go out there and take care of it okay it's melted before it ever hit when it hits the ground so there's a lot of different issues to get this thing to work with the floor being level with the outside you only have literally a few inches that you have to work with Okay and then I can get the steps inside nice handrails and it works it works well um and when people pull up they can actually see the people standing inside when they know they're there and ready to be picked up or when they're being dropped off that's what we were trying to do so is this like a Cormier storefront system exactly so your what is it the uh inch and 3/4 M yeah I'm trying to keep that as thin as possible like I said if I could get it to disappear I would it's kind of hard to put a roof on something and make it disappear sure all right so on this plan here it says Kingston Presbyterian Church in Township of buing Mercer County New Jersey no that's the um that's nework that's a mistake that the engineer made yeah okay that's what icated New Jersey address the engineer yeah but yeah it just says in Township of viewing I thought I was sorry about that yeah I didn't blame Trenton Engineers okay and it really well you don't have a lot of room to work with on the back side because you have those entrance and exit and then there's a little masonary uh CMU block building corre on the one side that they use for storage okay and there's enough room for a car or a truck to go through but not much more and I think it's only like 6'6 off the back of the building so if you're trying to make the uh the the mullon system disappear you're doing a dark bronze or something like that is that no white white because everything else stucco on the back is kind of a cream color but all the windows the fascia boards The Rake boards they're all light okay and then the um the doors the you're moving to the side is going to be standard corn your store front doors they open out they're glass and you're ending it with is that what your that those windows are there okay they're existing yeah so oh they're behind the bushes here they're going to cut the bushes down and then they're going to bring the roof across the top all acoss it's kind of nice out into that how are you handling the the rainwater off the top of the thing there's a pitch like A4 inch per foot okay and then the way I laid it out in some details right now is there is a built-in gutter okay on that flat roof I don't have a lot of depth to do that no well that's if you look at what I've done with the structural steel okay it's trying to make it as thin as possible and then get it out past that main steel beam that carries the overhangs on either side and then you have a three in tube Square tube that comes down in the corners of the building so it's going to be interior to the building no or it's it's on the outside but it matches the corner of the glass you're going to want to put a pretty good head wall flash here yeah that's going to come up more than your showing probably yeah typically what I do with that is I'll have them cut to stucco bring it up on the outside then slide it back up okay underneath the stucco and that's how I try to keep it as do a clean what again what i' like to try to do is take out that stucco it's typically about 3/4 of an inch put a piece of plywood womanized Plywood And then your flashing comes flat and then back in what you don't want to see is above this flat roof a piece of flashing this High you get counter flashing on no matter what you do though right no I'm I'm very aware of that the the details all the way through this I mean every little quarter of an inch has to be detailed out so it's a little Jewel it these are the fun projects yeah one architect to the other all right um I see what they're doing here it kind of makes sense to me uh with at least with what they're trying to do like you mentioned you know years ago you'd go in the front door and nowadays people are lazy and they go in the easiest and quickest erress they you know they can get in do you even open the front doors we do open the front doors it's open on 27 see Road there's not much parking so you might get three or four people that Park on 27 and then come in the front door's one side door and there's a a lift on the other side we converted one of the staircases in the front to a lift and we have um handicap parking side near the lift so they come in the front of the building but they don't come in the front door they come in the lift or the other side door us are you going to do some kind of recess light at each of the opening sides all the lights inside and out they're like a 3-in LED downlight M um I don't know I I don't want to add anything else to the building okay I want to keep it as clean possible so you don't getting that uh yes that'll disappear also I in I'm from the Gomery Township and we have a very strict Dark Skies policy in m so they we've never allowed too many light fixtures on the outside of buildings thank you for taking such great care with this I mean this is extremely well done and well thought out thank you and what was your name again Thomas Lee l it's a lot of work for beautiful building is going over here I can find it cuz this this could have looked hideous yeah I mean it really we've seen some hi vules before I'm a little concerned about the white mions on but I think it'll be okayy Architects every little detail right every little little detail I mean we could eliminate the allons to do buck blazing how do you feel about that I think it actually needs something to to Anchor it to Anchor it down and the other dad and that's the real color as opposed to this pinkish clay yeah okay nice all right um anybody have that was very thorough thank you for taking us through that anybody have any questions or comments I'm good no additional questions or comments the public have any questions or comments on this application seeing is no comes forward does anybody have a motion on this application that's not named Bob I'll make a motion to accept great job than second really perfect well all in favor hi any opposed all right thank you very much yeah very good thank you I love see hand drawings I very of right I still do everything my hand great job how I got involved with the Kingston church was through Haiti and they have a member who or a past member who was a doctor in in Haiti and that's where I started meeting people at the church because I do her buildings down in so interesting commun there well thank you take care thanks all right um uh 4513 Route 27 this is uh new siding window shutters restoration up side come on [Music] down everything's out [Music] 13 27 and your name for the record sir uh I'm Craig de I'm the architect for the owner here de Lonnie you've been here before I have and I'm sorry the owner joanni joanni from okay so tell us about your project um so for some history uh Gan and his wife has on this property for some time um they had some tenants in there over some time and those tenants have moved out they now want to restore this house uh for their own personal home um we are here before you this evening to talk about the restoration of the front facade the sides of this uh building um and what we're planning to do in that regard um we did some research uh and found some older photos from the historical side of Princeton uh which we believe is the home that actually had at one point an addition on the side of it um so with that information and and I think we're pretty much on uh son's the uh chimney systems and so on we basically geared our drawings off of that what is on the home right now um is uh aluminum siding over a uh old clapboard basically not PVC PVC siding over a the vinyl basically over the old clapboard and the clapboard was originally held uh connected to uh full cut studs of the nature of the construction type that would happen so you're saying this portion of the house here over no longer exist no correct you know that's probably the original part of the house yeah that's what I thought too and then that became the addition by the size of scale of the windows you can see got the N9 of n usually they build this quickly build their Barn then they build the state mhm yeah I was think cuz the barn makes money okay so what we have left is is the main part that we have there the second half of the later part of it still built in the same structure that it was uh full cut Timbers um on the inside face the clapboard was originally put up right up on the structure that is there there's not you know 16 in on Center they didn't build that way back then you got 30 in 32 in with lead in uh structural supports going back and forth the um the clapboard is basically at this case completely deteriorated it's been covered by uh a poly vinyl we want to take everything back down to the studs that are there reinforce any studs put up plywood to make sure the building structurally sound and then come back um and put up a cementitious siding in the same fashion uh size and scale of what was there before so the Hardy plank Hardy plank exactly smooth finish yes no Impressions no Impressions a smooth finish on it and then the windows we want to replace them in again uh four over fours as in the drawings that are there new shutters um shutters or decorative no they're going to be decorative um the dental moldings that are up there restore them as best we can fill them in in the ways that need to some of them are pretty rotted out there is an integrated gutter system that's part of that Roof System that's there we want to maintain that is it a Yankee gutter or it's a Yankee gutter mhm and the drawings represent that stuff what we also would like to do is in that front porch um we store that front that front entrance and we'd like to do it um in a stone which would be a big blue stone basically coming across the whole area correct correct yep all the way through in that right now they're I just like a wooden deck right now yeah it's correct correct um that is really for the front facade and again on the sides the same type of thing the entire house all the way around the back ctitious siding keeping with the side elevations following the same language of this the four of fors your elevations don't show chimneys correct cuz there is no new chimney going in is there existing chimney no they have a free yeah yep there's no there's no from that photo right there were two chimneys that were there wow probably two on the other side mhm no no it's a it's a from the basement you can see the foundation where they used to be so we just doing the side of the front looks like the rest of the house is being worked on as well right so our presentation here tonight is about the historic uh renovation and restoration we will have to go through a process for full building permits and the Zoning for any back rebuilding of the piece in the side so some of this work has already started right yes yes we are here tonight based on a violation that showed up uh the work had started um giovan had started work in there cleaning things up and one thing left to the other as he started taking place apart and and now the building is completely gutted the inside of it is gutted correct I have pictures of the house I mean it wasn't any other the wooden the inside was out was inst installation same that you know there's no way that I at one point I was actually thinking of you know uh the moving the bind item and put it you know like sing it down and bringing it back to life oh trying to restore the wood there is no way there's no way to I like the front I love the front of the house I love all the white and black and it will be the same thing that's what I'm was playing to Crate I love the front I want to do like a know I nice house so what's this proposed gravel parking area back here so these drawings that you have here these were civil drawings that were presented to the township uh some moons ago this gravel parking lot is not in place in my this is I used to well I have owned this property for about 5 years now uh probably longer than that uh probably I want to say six years it used to be you know like where people when I bought it people used to par trucks in there so I bought it mainly for my landscaping business I own a landscaping business and then I also turned it into a f which right now we're going you know we're on a f assess uh with the town and that's what we have the ground parking lot because we grow we grow a lot of our own trees plant our own trees you know okay that's what also like I don't know you guys are familiar with this area but on the back all of these are FL Mysteries like you take some if you look at some pictures on the back you can see Rose of trees that were abandoned like nor crues White Pines uh Magnolia you know like nice trees that way us aband when uh ner off and uh so are you keeping the is the gravel area the gravel area is there okay the gravel area is there and that's St yeah that's St eventually what I'm well the reason why I'm saying is more that this kind of like my you know my hopefully my last house okay uh that's why I'm willing to put all the money in there because I want to have you know nice Farmhouse pretty much yeah I get it which it goes really well with the type of business that I do which I'm proud I've been doing for that long but at least for a couple years so you doing there's a patio on the back and an addition on the back well yes that's what those of pictures are showing what it ended up happening was like you can see it I like a here this is this was exting existing M I did a I want want to do a blone part okay you like a cover I did a cover on top it's not an addition it's just a they consider that in addition part of the roof just a roof cover M so what what did you demolish here demolish a big portion the well the wall like all the like all these wall is existing okay but what happened like that wall was so bad that I took got because this was an addition at one point I guess I don't think it was part of the origional house okay so but that wall I had to replace it all it was all roted out it was all rotted out I pictures and all that I can sh with you guys and the housing what are uh what are these existing windows are they vinyl Replacements or no like these ones on the back new construction on the front oh those I don't know those are some are vinyl windows some are not even in windows that are there just storm windows hanging the back are uh new uh hell window inst like this house it look like at one point someone did a l of with it and that because you have commcial no we we had it to cut that out to repl one of the beans okay inside they rebuilt some of the structure that's there so we're going to go through that process with permitting make sure it's there myself as an architect constru engineer G through everything that's been done and getting it up want to do on the outside so um up here what kind of Windows are you proposing here so these are simulated divided lights um whether it's be yeah no a higher level than a 400 um to get the simulated divid Amon I don't know if they Happ um you know so we're going to and again I'm saying simulated divided that means that they're on both sides for Center Glass in there so it looks like full depth it's not just inside the thickness of the window um so it looks more uh appropriate you have a m projection on the correct okay um the front doors the wood doors are original that we believe are there and we want to restore them the way they are the transom above it um as we talked about M so you want to restore the existing front door and the transm mhm you want to replace the windows with simulat the violite you're going to do Hardy cement fiber cement um it's more to right dor cement siding smooth finish good answer then you're going to do corner boards correct corner boards and then what are your in your your down leaders and count down spots are going to be round half copper round uh coming down um I wasn't proposing a copper uh but I don't think the coppera will look good with that house yeah I was thinking just a regular white either white or black I think I would do white so it just Blends into the around Copper would look great on the house no no I mean no I I that's what they use and then and you're going to do um you're going to try and redo the Yankee gutters wct I want to maintain that rack that's in the front really only in the back um it will be a a half round gutter that runs around the back of it it is a flat roof basically that's running with internal gutters there and then you said you want to try and uh restore the brackets and dentals yes um and you're going to uh replicate in wood what needs to be replaced that's our goal were you engaged for this project prior to the demolition starting no okay for shutters you said the shutters are going to be simulated MH and um I'm going to tell you that we're going to do panels on the lower and movers on the top that's fine because that's what would have been done that's fine so what is so lver looks like that panel is just a flat you're going to make sure the lver are going the right direction we do um most Lou prefabricated louvers they're actually going the wrong direction cuz the lers would be down when the windows closed and they they're not I mean they're going to be fixed open so we won't have all the hardware on them we won't have any that no p is the uh roof new or is that planning to get replaced as well the roof was replaced recently am I correct mhm and what wrong answer what what is what was the what is the roof uh now it's it's a architectural [Music] dimensional single existing okay well that's how all started start leing from the top and then we finally got lot of rotting wood and we just kind of kept going and kept going next thing we [Music] know no 10 doesn't match just oh that's a square map that's a square tab yeah there's two different parts okay uh and then the treatment on the foundation wall you're going to do just a parge a parge of the existing Stone that's there what about the uh hoods over the windows yeah we'd like to maintain them or actually re put them back in in the front and as shown on the draws from there both with Sills and and the hood hoods and SS and then the porch roof we talked about the the dental moldings right correct and then you're going to do like an EP and flat roof on that correct what what's uh what's with this bump out that's happening is there a roof on that it's it's it's it's almost a flat roof yeah and then you can see that's an addition too CU it wasn't actually in some of these older photos someone must have bumped that out too so then we're it's a slender scale of a window there so you can see that difference looks M or yeah M so I see that what looks like to be oil heat I'm assuming maybe hot water heating so there there's no there's no systems in the house right now so the oil heat wasn't there when I bought the house is is gas available yeah gas is we' been gas in and everything before there okay cuz I see in the front picture here a metal uh yeah metal B vent kind of thing M I'd like to see a little detail on how you plan on doing the front stairs I don't have a full instruction detail on how this Stu we're going to come together um and I can definitely submit them do like do slabs correct for the steps yeah like like I was telling him why would do like we do all the time you know do a footing do would block you know I would do imp partial size to much the side of are you doing solid solid SL steps or you going to do a tread and like a stone veneer on the R I was thinking that it will nice this house just charge it and Bluestone thread like a 2in Bluestone thread with the rock face on it okay you know all the way around and then on the landing I would do like I would do kind of like almost like a subway tile Subway P I mean I would like picture frame The Landing okay and then do like a Subway pad with in the middle got got right you R them either way with those houses I mean was good that you can even do like a recycle blue down too where you can get something we actually have this house a they demo in pron we have a lot of yeah you might be able to get you know like Steps coming ACR full slabs um that you can just yeah like full threads they super threads they call it in salid piece of stone we can get them up that instead of having then you have AER then you have so we we do that but uh they need a pretty big machine to lift the we have an excavator yeah I a lot of those old houses will have like a big Gran step well the way that we us we still build it with block so we see them in block and then like you know with an excavator with the suction yeah you the vacuum [Music] yeah 8 8T wide a I don't yeah a 10 yeah you can even do it with like the two pieces too as long just s the points yeah any questions from that end I just I don't know if we see the whole picture I you got it written out on that uh list there you don't have the architecturals huh you don't have the architectural no I have that too but I'm just saying of all the the things that are going to happen just a lot of things going on at this point on playing ketchup um other than that you know with the shape of the house and the condition of the house I I definitely um see and and sympathize with what you're trying to do um except next time get permits we're going to from now on that's all we're doing uh I actually wish one of our other members was here Glenn um the par because they uh they recently put together a book on the history of Kingston and um he had mentioned that this house um at one point might have actually been an in M um I that every house up G but there there was some ties to this to this house wish I remember this is why my neighbor because my neighbor had lived there for years and he he gave me some pictures too and you know he tells me the story that this house was owned by some guy in New York that he used to come over here they used to have like a ballroom on the because that was a beautiful house still it's like if you go and look at it now almost like made it for Farm of w almost like a park like you know like we planted a bunch of trees L trees was D but my neighbor was telling me his name is Eric that they used to have like a lot of people from New York they used to come when he was little party like they have like a nice you know like I don't know what's to called but like like a little like an outdoor roof area and he remembers because every Sunday he and his father used to go and clean up the property he was only five or six years old and uh you know I mean I like I I love this area I grew up pretty much around this area so I you know I just love that it's nice and quiet nice it feels like you're in a form but you're close to everything so are you satisfied with um what you're describing for the you want see um I think it might be nice to see a little of detail to show you together use this FL um would would it be okay if uh I submit that when I submit for my building permits and the rest of the details come about and yeah I I think so so what we would do is uh we would do a conditional approval with conditions that um those details additional details are submitted um and I think um another thing that we're going to need to see is um the location of the site utilities where you're putting condensers for your air conditioners okay uh are you going to screen any of that stuff like that um question uh I know that might be off topic or whatever like a I'm just saying we did that once uh with the house not this house another house for one of the customers mhm it's a a wall considered a fence no wall is a wall a fence is a fence no because like I'm only asking because that was also like another like I was at one point I was thinking of building like a cicle wall in front of the house a free standing wall yeah like you know that would need to be reviewed yeah but that's I mean right now that we're here and I'm like hey you know what because last time that we did it they counted that as a fence more than you know because it was 6 ft high and whatever yeah if you're doing it I mean it depends on on so so typically we but and and my other question was going to be does that count to you guys absolutely um and but typically are you saying that do that out here or on the property so right right at the front yeah yeah kind of like right in the front so so typically we frown upon that um because uh what we like to do is maintain not the semblance of what the rest of the community is like oh so to keep what you're doing consistent um with what everybody else is doing and the idea is not to be and the reason why I'm saying that because you as you know I'm be moving into this house there's a lot of traffic going through big trucks I get it and you know that was why like you know my wife and I were talking hey you know you got Trap Rock right over here pretty much I mean trap rock is my back neighbor yeah because that property goes like 8 acres and he goes like all the way to the back so so typically and we've had a lot of uh a lot of conversations about this typically fence in the front of a property like this the fence has to be behind the front elevation of the house so that the front elevation is proud to the street the show the so I understand the Privacy noise that we get that all the time but you know it is it's about maintaining community and making sure that the the the district itself is maintained got it all right so um so far um what the conversation is is a conditional approval um that with the condition that there's a resubmission with the additional details for the front steps and porch slight sight plan uh showing condensers and other um any site utilities um and then was there anything else you wanted to see think I think it's just the for the front steps steps did you want any like uh faux chimneys up top or anything if if they're not there now you didn't demolish them right no if they're not there now there's no point of recreating okay um that brings me I mean sorry if I wanted to add a chimy you have to come back you have to come back because we're also considering the option but I'm yeah yeah the ones I was actually mentioning were like uh the fake no and I mean if I Wasim I would build it with like I will do fireplace right and then bring it up yeah it's interesting cuz there was probably you can actually kind of see through there's a set here and there's a set here and and those chimneys were not I'm surprised they're actually demolished cuz they're actually also providing sheer resistance to the wood framing so so those are actually integral to the way they thought about the structure of the house built in so with them gone well that's why I'm getting back to the idea the whole house has to get Plywood And my Shear because there isn't anything here right now it kind of like you have the fuel stone wall because that's what it is you know fuel stone with water and and then like it bumps out like two like a foot and a half like with like a big Stone and then it looks like they build it up from their yeah yeah like a COR it's called Cor so so they basically use the candal lever of each successive set to transfer the weight down well you'll actually see a lot in these houses I wouldn't be surprised if it was in this house is that when you get to the attic the chimney will shift over so that the front of the house look symmetrical so like the fireplace is where the fireplace needs to be but then they move the chimney over through coring to get it where it wants to be aesthetically for you know um I mean this is It's kind of like an italianate vernacular house and and would had those bookends okay any more questions or comments it says one two and the landing whatever any questions at no no questions P you no I think we we um they covered covered everything with that any uh questions or comments from the public did you bring this whole crew they're very interesting sounds beautiful go eliminated all right um so so with that I think um the conversation is a conditional approval with resubmission um with uh showing the details for how the stairs and the porch are going to be done um with site plan showing locations of condensers and all that good stuff um and then that are they coming back here or they giving it to me they're giving it to you for confirmation okay good so it's going to come with their permit submission and you're going to hold the permit until I verify until you that's appreciate [Applause] that oh and and another part of my condition was that panel Shutters on the ground floor cuz that's historically accurate anything anything for the basement window I don't you're asking now or in the middle of I hear you as you mentioned window we don't have an official motion yet uh no I'm just saying know what the Bas we're we're putting them in as as windows that are there they're not jealousy windows but small uh sler windows that are going be in there like Hopper Windows um yeah n Hoppers are the worst we do sliders the problem with sliders is only get half the window window and you got that seam in the middle um all right cool so we'll see those the resubmission package as well cuz we'll we'll get your final commit package so uh that that's my motion I guess um anybody want to make that one second all right so motion me second report all in favor any opposed so we'll look forward to seeing that and then uh I'll bleed on the drawings and we'll be good that' be excellent I appreciate B thank you guys very much do you need any of these extra copies you want if you want them you can have them back I'm going to keep this one sure thank you thank you thank you thank you guys have a good evening next time get perits I got to go back in password so I can all one more we have one more and then we have an informal uh so the next application 202 24-18 is 1165 eastn Avenue which is the old Willows um where there's been work going on and a small fire yes FL can't tell that it was flooded too right yeah and it that's multiple times all right so um so you started some work sure right um what's going on with the project so uh first of all my name is Vicki haes I'm um the administrator and uh I had asked I offered myself up to come here tonight um first because I um my husband born and raised in town I raised my family as town and I the administrator of the center um it's really important for me because I really think this is such an important piece of our community so I wanted to make sure that I was here to talk to you about it as well as the professionals that were doing the work um so I am so excited to be able to open this back up it's been about 3 years in September um so we huh um Ida I guess that was the last hurricane I don't remember remember um there were blur all I know is there's water um I'm keeping an eye on the rain tonight no um so we are you know looking forward to basically the structure I'll let them explain but basically the structure is the same um the only thing we did was just uh Remodel and replace a lot of the things it's an old it was an old building so roofs and things like that with permits um and they could kind of go over what's been done but really no structural change to the center no addition um nothing different except for we have modernized the center inside um um won get the visits from the fire department every day with flood with uh leaky ceilings and sprinkler systems with old pipes all of that has been changed so um we're ready to just provide care you guys you could ask them questions I don't think I'll have the answers thank you all right so take us through what's going on so for thei your relation said we really did not replace anything we just remodeled um we left all the existing brick we just painted the existing brick to like a more of a creamy white color so that it kind of looks refreshed a little bit more contemporary um and that it kind of stands out because it's like further back you know from the road and they wanted it to be more of like um uh have more of a present so we painted it uh like a whitish color I have all the colors here if you want to see them in real because that's black and white but we painted that um we added so this is all painted now yes it's all painted is it just a latex paint did you use like a kind pain um yeah it was a regular like an exterior finish pain with an exterior finish um we added some some design only detail in parts of the building with like some porcelain tile um just to give the building a little bit of Dimension around the entrance so is that these things yeah no the what do you the columns the colum no not the columns that's a SE detail here I'll show it to you in collar so you can see it and I'm sorry I didn't get your name okay I'm Sarah sah and I am the designer on the project um so it's kind of around the entrance way we have like some tile that we added on like like meaning the side of the building is the brick color rendering yeah yeah right um and that's it we replaced the roof we replaced um we added lighting we have like lights across the building we have lights in the actual floor uplights you know little spots in the floor um we're going to be redoing the landscape and then we have those we the the front area with those columns are all existing we're just adding like a decorative element to it to kind of just make you a little bit more so you're wrapping them in an enclosure uh wrapping the colum the colum itself yes yes like a metal off 3D like a laser cut panel and we have the products if you want to look at them yes so you're beefing it up right exactly it needed to be yes it needed to be and and we were on a budget so we it would kind of helped but we couldn't do much are you doing anything you mentioned lighting are you doing anything with sight lighting like these crooked light poles or is any of that included we have the light poles in the parking area okay um we have the lights um yeah the exterior lights on the sides of the building and those are being replaced yes do you have do you have what those are I have I'll give you a speack so you're just adding lighting under the copies and then along the I guess the eve of the fa all the way across the front is what it looks like correct is this all downloading yeah yeah it's in the faci yeah [Applause] side up lights up up lights are in the concrete around the front the col so you're uh you're making it more glitzy yeah I mean we want to stand out exactly more attractive to the we need to fill it you know we need to fill up our census the appearance always talks to them you know for five six I don't even remember how many years ago Somerset Woods went into Somerset and they were the most modern and we were Willow Creek who's been there forever so this is going to help us the B and then Amy has all the Landscaping plans that we're going to add as well cuz what's the building without landscape yeah landscape the jewelry you know it brings it to life M absolutely it settle down the uh beautiful exterior I like to call us a waterfront property once every 3 years you have an indoor pool that's it I know we're years right now so okay um so yeah where's the Landscaping we have an actual plan or um there is in the back like the rendering pointing out so you did say the were perir prod full full-blown permits and post fire damage everything see he's conveniently gone at that moment right I personally handled all that so it was it was all done and completed properly with inspections I'm a little bummed because my son did his Eagle Scout project here and he did a whole butterfly garden which is wiped away so we have to these in there but that's a nice boulder and we do have um a sh we do have the the fish pond in front which we just redid refinish it uh the inside of it and we'll be putting fish back in the pot cool can I make a suggestion sure if you haven't already planted the yellow cone flowers are cultivars and they're not as hearty as the NATO purple cone flowers okay if you were going with um you know a color scheme I can see why you'd want the yellow but they die out after a couple of years okay where the purples are natives and they'll continue with their perennials okay we'll make you not to that yeah it's interesting we there's a one of the detention basins um was planted out but a no mo and they all the all the co friers are gone after just two years were they theal and the yellow and there were so many gold finches in there and now there's none cuz there's no more the property is all so well kep you know this maintains there's landscaper so the concern of flowers dying is not such a concern cuz if they were D they would be replaced but if that's something you would like we're happy to work with you I just I just happened to be at the Native Plant Society you could definitely do that absolutely I'm going to have to talk to you when I plant my wild flow Garden next year oh come to my house I'll give you all kinds of wild plowers all right excellent any questions so so you have the spec on the lighting yeah you want me to it's a regular like um an LED like pile head I'm just waiting for him to send me this back I tou sheet yeah yeah that's what I'm waiting for him to send me so Vince this one slipped through and they got permits no they have permits from the state I think no we we have permits from the building department absolutely you you don't you don't have you you do not have the permit not for the exterior no you don't have any permits for the work you did on the exterior correct no the exterior we didn't do anything to the exterior well you started work on the the exterior they were unaware of that it that it was in historic and that it needed such permit so it was brought to our attention we gave they we gave them a roof permit that that you have the permit for that correct and all interor construction Department invertedly gave the permit but that's the only permit you have what other and I'm just asking the question I'm an administrator I'm not in design or anything so we didn't do anything to the you're I guess just the paint so you're in a historic district so any element that's on the exterior of the building so that includes the windows that were all replaced that's the roof that's uh any of these Design Elements any of the Landscaping all of that is under none of that's happened all that's under the perview of of being in the historic district and I and I know everybody says East Avenue is a historic district is it because of but you have the canal and not only that you're bordering right next to which was one of the Marone Wireless T across the street from the TAC Bell uh in front of the self storage building Marone is's the one last remaining Marone building um so there there are elements scattered and there's there's actually foundations uh that you can find from the antennas and I know my family we grew up on EAS Avenue so I get it basically anything you do to the outside of the property including if you're going to pay paave anything everything on the outside has to come to this commission for ironically the only thing we don't care about is car you know we have a bunch of residents that were displaced three years ago who this is their home and we want to get them home so if we missed a step then I apologize as the administrator there but good we want to get them home uh I don't have any more questions or comments do anybody else I think it's straightforward enough I think that um uh do you want them the chance to comb flour as part of the condition um um we'll give you first dibs on the beds you know hopefully it's a while away yeah right um anybody have uh any more questions or comments I was going to Echo the same thing there Andrew you know it's pretty straightforward it's modernized a little bit and cleaned up which it needed through all the things that it went through uh I don't problem with it or the just a curiosity did you guys look into any flood mitigation measures for the building they did I mean I know some of them but do you know yeah they're they're with the retaining wall and the floodgates and everything they're putting in yes yes they're put it was like $2 million yeah mhm and we uh I had a project that I did in uh in raway right along the river and as soon as they saw the price T they said we're not doing that and then 2 years years later the whole building flooded heartbreak anyway um anybody from the public that's left have any questions are you here for the informal I'm sorry you guys had to wait this is the wrong month really interesting we're not we don't normally have seven applications it's not normal all right uh no public coming forward do we have a motion what's your motion to accept as apply for there is there a second second all in favor I any opposed brilliant all in favor say I all right so we're good thank you