of August 1st 2024 in accordance with the open public meetings act PL 1975 chapter 231 adequate notice of this regular meeting of the board of adjustment of the township of Franklin has been provided board members applicant professionals and members of the public please speak directly into microphones so that our recording secretary can properly process minutes applicants and professionals please fill out the sheet on the table when you've completed your testimony thank you uh roll call please uh just so you're aware Sher beia is coming she's running a little bit late and so is mar key just on to be on the record uh Richard procanik here Joel uh Joel ree here Allan rich and Fraz Khan asked to be excused from this evening's meeting Gary Rosenthal here Robert Shephard here Basim veros Michael dhy here Kunal lakia here and chairman Thomas here uh minutes the regular meeting June 20th we have a motion I'll move second there a second yes uh aim uh Richard procanik yes is your mic on yes Gary Rosenthal yes Robert Shephard yes vasim vas yes Michael Dy yes Kunal lakia yes chairman Thomas yes uh there are no resolutions and uh discuss we do not have an open public discussion uh hearings jant Gale zba 24009 C variant applicant seeks to demolish the existing house and construct a new single family home at 18 aen Lane Somerset block 15 block 26 in the zone R40 hello uh you're the applicant yes probably should swear men sir if you can raise your right hand do you have swear that the testimony you're about to give before this board is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes uh if you can just restate your name and spell your last name for the record please jant go g o k h a l e thank you let the record reflect Cheryl Bea arve okay go uh maybe we could start out this way I I rode by the property today and you're actually applying for something different than it says here it says C variants applicant is seeking to demolish existing house and construct a new single family but the house is not there anymore you removed the house already we just removed it we applied for demolish permit and we just removed well you got to talk a little louder for me um just demolished it actually last this week itself so it was there apped and we just demolished it because we had applied and demolished the house this oh so you got a permit to do that okay great maybe you could just give us a brief summary of why you're here yeah there's two variances involved I believe uh there is only one variance we are looking for uh two oh sorry lot size two thank you uh so we actually basically we have been living in Edison and uh we want to basically move uh as we get to the retirement age we wanted to move to the some location which is more quieter and more kind of a gives us basically something basically quite neighborhood uh so the Franklin Township that's what we choose last year to buy a property and build the house can't be sry okay can you hit oh no can you start all over you have to keep you have to keep it right to your mouth because they can't hear you okay sure okay so I've been living in Edison for over 25 years and as we kind of planning for our retirement and the uh kind of where do we plan to stay we were looking looking for a location which is more quieter more to basically in a nature kind of and this particular place was kind of fits that bill so uh we are basically decided to kind of build a house for our retirement uh in the Franklin Township in that area which is next to the canal and the lot of wood wooded area and all so given the basically reason basically we are moving with the old AG plus of my mom who will be staying with us and she had the basically the surgery and all so we are actually instead of building a two-story house we wanted to build a single story house and same thing basically can happen to us as we kind of go to that age group so that's why it's a single family house um that we we are planning to build the reason it is kind of a variance that we are basically looking for the house size is we come from India and there basically culturally like old time there used to be open courtyard in the center and the house house was all the rooms were constructed around that and this house plan if you look at it's based on that theme only difference is it's covered Courtyard it's not a courtyard it's a kind of area that is covered but it's all the rooms are in kind of surrounding that Central Area so that like you spend most of the time in that Central Area a family you basically so that's why basically that Central Cod area becomes very critical and it's coming from that cultural stuff St like we wanted to build so that we feel something that we used to have or we have seen in the old age and basically when we were there uh so I think uh looking at basically family basically us my mom my son who is in California we expect him to visit and have his family and also we kind of looking at the four bedroom house with the courtyard and things so that's what the variance we are asking for okay you uh a lot is a a few feet under size that that exists you can't do anything about that anything that can be done about reducing the impervious coverage closer to 10% uh so I think as I said like if we want to build a single story house uh that coverage it's very difficult to do it in 10% and then given the as I said my mom and the family that we are basically expecting to kind fit into 10% but what we tried to do is a couple of things like we kind of made sure the imperious area we are not exceeding the 20% or any other basically kind of limits also like just so that the neighborhood kind of looks that how good we also removed the existing garage that was there uh so that even like that has been demolished like if you I guess Robert said like he visited that so we have removed that so now it's actually only one variance we need so we kind of just taken care of that okay does your planner have something to I do on no you're you're we may as well qualify you since I'm just trying go through the formality of it the light is green it should be on I turned them all on is it there we go hold it to your mouth my name is John Chadwick I'm a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey swear you Mr Chadwick raise your right hand uh do you swear that the testimony you're about to give before this board is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do and just uh repeat your name again please the name is John Chadwick I'm a licensed professional planner in the state of New Jersey and have been for some period of time better we can accept your swallow credentials as long as you're still licensed and and you got right point the variances of for lot size and lot coverage lot size all the lots are joining us are also undersized roughly the same amount as ours we're a couple hundred square feet under the 40,000 under the 40,000 square foot uh there's no point in doing a buy sell letter because all of the lots are joining us are non-conforming so we go from one variance to another uh the lot coverage is the design of the building if you look at the plot layout out that I assume you have the maps that will file with the application the building is cocked to the street so you don't have any long side facing the street itself so it gives the appearance of a different shape and also the building doesn't have long flat walls if you go through this NE oh just going to hand these out and if you could just pass them down I don't know if there's enough enough for everyone or not but maybe you could share Mr chairman may we should Mark this is an exhibit uh A1 yes this is an a photograph I think it's a Google Source but I'm not positive uh it's fairly recent it's about uh it's do you know when it was taken Mr CH do you know when it was taken the the uh I believe it's I believe it's in April 2024 uh time frame the building is still shown on that is the demolition occurred few days ago uh the property you see this is an old neighborhood it's not within the historic district of griggstown uh that was checked and you can see a report you do not have a report from the historic commission the buildings along the street you have some large twostory Colonial design and you also have have some Cottages left over from the original griggstown summer home Community uh and that's kind of the streets be I'd say west of this and south and east of this going towards the canal same thing you have some large um modernistic homes there's no particular strain of Architecture is much different than a track residential development and it's gone through an evolution uh clearly when they put sewers out there about 15 years ago now Pro yeah MH they took them out they took them out to Sunset and then they took him down to griggstown and they had to uh it was a lot lot of issues in grian but this those those are things of the past you have a boundary line to this and you can see from the aerial photographs uh it's well vegetated well mature formal plantings as well as just trees uh so the U and the and then the setbacks well exceed all the requirements to the R40 Zone and because it's a one-story house uh the coverage in my judgment the size of the structure is much less imposing as well as being angled to the street as opposed to facing straight up on the street for all those reasons and and I think more important and what was emphasized by the applicant is we're well under the maximum lot coverage and as part of this whole project we take a garage which was two-car garage probably on the property line and that variance and to the neighbor to the west has been eliminated so I think in all all said and done the planning project is a benefit both to the neighboring property with garage was imposing to the community itself in terms of adding uh a new uh very attractive uh quite unique home oh the other part of the architecture you do not have one of these 11 on 12 slope roofs it's a relatively it's not flat but it's not imposing as you would have uh some of the newer style homes so my judgment it fits the neighborhood it fits the ution you can see out there if you're familiar with this neighborhood uh and the Landscaping uh provides the uh clear separation between this new project and the joiners uh my judgment it meets the standards for a C2 variance and should be approved uh just a quick question um this isn't a project that's going to require you to clearcut the lot before you build the house there's nothing there's three trees are going to come down the front yard the rest all around is shown in the plan is remaining so we can feel safe putting in the resolution that any existing tree removal will be very limited yes I'm not going to say three trees something might come up but yep so it's understood that we don't go out there three days after the resolution passes and it's a flat table correct right I mean the property is fly as aboard but the basic vegetation is all on the boundary lines some of it's on this lot some is on the joiners it looks like you have a pretty good building envelope from the aerial yes without doing anything any other questions I have a couple of questions um what's the accessory setback for a front yard accessory yeah you have an accessory structure don't you uh one story Bas R garage or is that being demolished no that's gone okay sorry that's all gone that's the one that's right on the property line almost any other questions we'll open to the public then is there anyone who would like to ask a question or make a statement concerning this application then we'll close and I'm assuming you're completed I am any board discussion or motion just in case since we usually get a detailed report from Mark on applications like this uh any resolution I think should be should include that any uh recommendations or comments by any of the boards or commissions or experts Township Personnel or will be followed yes I forgot I should have mentioned we've reviewed the reports and we have no um objection okay then we're in line for a motion I I move that we I move that we Grant the giant Gale um the Varian is needed to um uh build uh a house at 18 aen Lane or other other individuals um hired by the board to um um participate in this matter we need a second second uh second you V okay I'll just grab theim I heard a couple people say second Sher viia yes Richard pranic yes re yes Gary Rosenthal yes Robert Shephard yes Basim veros yes and chairman Thomas yes okay good luck with it next on the agenda thank you would be 11 property zba 24 0000001 preliminary and final major site plan with c es in which the applicant proposes to construct a four-story apartment building at 940 E Avenue Somerset block 385 B 2.07 in the GB Zone we concluded the last time with the uh testimony given by the architect I uh as I recall we were at the point where we were able to start taking board questions and then opening to the public if there's anything you would like to highlight as a way of a quick review uh I'll entertain that I don't want to get involved with actually giving the testimony again I don't think Mr chairman there's anything that I can add to the testimony that was provided I'm assuming uh those who wish to ask questions remember the testimony and they can begin whether it's from the board first or the uh Community I just also wanted to note for the record we did receive the historic preservation advisory commission report uh and we do intend to address that just not at this meeting uh the historic pre preservation commission made recommendations on changing the architectural design of the building and uh we need some time to address those and at a later meeting we will present our response to that okay so I'm going to extend what you're saying and say that those are not points that need to be discussed or questioned at this point tonight because they're it's as though he didn't test testify about them they're going to be changed or reviewed or there will be a followup e out of the building at this time the application has been submitted to drcc and we did receive a letter and I believe we provided that to the township as part of our application package if not I will make sure that you have that thank you okay then we will be about to open to the public for questions before we do that I have a couple of comments um the questions this part of the hearing is intended for the public to have an opportunity to question the witness concerning his testimony nothing else not his testimony from other meetings his testimony that he gave in this hearing in front of us all in person if anyone doesn't remember from the last meeting there's not much I can do about that tonight there's been ample opportunity to re rewatch the hearing on cable TV and bring yourself up to date uh another thing we're going to do is yeah you're you're not we're not entertaining questions for this witness who is an architect and gave testimony architectural testimony do not ask him a question about traffic or anything else he's an expert here on architecture uh the other thing I'm going to remind everybody if you're not sure what's appropriate or what's not appropriate you can go to Franklin Township nj.org look up boards and commission and there's an extremely detailed excellent description of what the responsibility of the audience is in terms of asking questions of witnesses during hearings we're not going to take the time to go over it now you can do that now at your seat if you needed to I hope we uh the other the uh final thing is uh you all come here with an interest in this application you all have ideas about which way it should go or which way it shouldn't go someone gets up and asks a question or makes a comment and it agrees with your your position this is not the place to stand up and cheer and stomp your feet or clap your hands it's not a sporting event it's a quasi judicial hearing it's going to be conducted like that we're going to follow the rules the audience is going to follow the rules or you'll be asked to leave so I hope that's harsh but clear now we'll open to the public for questions that is of course another issue that everybody just heard there has been a request from the historic preservation committee about some redesign features regarding the appearance of the building applicant has agreed that they're going to go back and look at that and they're not prepared to give testimony or Enclave Circle in Somerset um thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask my question um based based on your um presentation last month um would you say that the your architectural plans are addressing the issue of environmental sustainability and could you point us to e e uh designed not only with myself but with a mechanical electrical Plumbing team and we look at each one of those issues and then we can determine how sustainable the building will be at that point most of our buildings this is not direct testimony but most of our buildings just in normal construction of a multif family building like this uh basically would meet the qualifications for for a lead certified building which is the sort of the basic level um but we need to go through and look at every of the building to make that determination and to give you a accurate answer to your question okay uh so the lead certification I used to remember Does it include um solar panels or is it just solar panel ready lead certification and we're we're we're not saying we're seeking lead certification we just I use that as a standard to look at our building against um but lead certification is like a Chinese menu in that you you pick items within that scorecard to determine whether you meet a certain level of environmental sustainability and it involves all sorts of things it can involve solar panels it frequently doesn't in New Jersey but um it it can involve that that can be one of the items thank you and um just out of my own ignorance um do as an architect are these buildings that are being built today or next week next month next year um do they take into consideration the extreme weather that um you know we are encountering I mean after all everybody's um uh home insurance is is going up I know mine is going up and the reason the insurers uh give us is that extreme weather creates more opportunities so how how would this building address the more extreme weather you know let's say flooding from uh storms and things like that um I can't really comment on the FL area of responsibility but um I can tell you that the building will be will meet all applicable building code standards set forth by the state of New Jersey for this type of building thank you thanks hey anyone else Terry thoron 18 Leed drive I'm assuming the building is a fireproof building uh the building will be fully sprinklered every every floor of the building will be sprinklered uh fire proof I I don't know how no it it'll be a woodframe structure of the building um but it'll be uh again a safe building in terms of having the proper exit ways the proper rating fire ratings between units both horizontally and vertically and a fully sprinkled building okay um I come from Manhattan and I'm used to fire escapes uh no fire escapes with no fire escap interior fire escapes we have uh raided stair Towers access to the ground it looks like there's one staircase per Wing from the diagram um that's essentially correct yes you're going to get everybody from the wing down that fire down the the fire stairs internally in the building yes mhm uh are there emergency uh in the in the staircases and and in the corridors yes okay that's good um anything else I don't think there's anything else that I have here at the last meeting I mentioned that um even though presentation said they did not know how much sewage was produced the application does say it's going to be additional 29,6 65 gallons per day of sewage uh compared to the K which is not here now um Provisions to take care of that yeah I think we're getting off track this is the architect the sewage could have come under the engineer yeah the engineer didn't know it I had to give him the OWN e e e e well let's not we don't need to get no don't do that that that's not what they've been doing so thank you very much anyone else like to question fresh our memories from 40 days ago uh Mr minow I just wanted to make sure I have right some things that you said on June 20th uh you stated I believe that part of the new shopping center design will be to make currently 13 retail spaces in the existing building going to reconfigure that slightly with new demising portion portions or portions to create 17 retail spaces you then said generally the larger spaces are being made smaller lean management has determined that their target market for this retail so let's that's what we're working with and you then stated we want to give this building a really fresh look from the exterior does that sound about right to what you said Mr minow that's essentially right yes thank you from your Viewpoint was there any structural reason or architectural reason from an architect's point of view only why six years ago approximately when Kmart closed that Levan couldn't have done the same thing redesigning from 13 to 17 smaller stores or by demolishing the Kmart going from 13 to say 25 smaller stores that that's not part of his architectural testimony that again could be planner that could be in sight engineer we're talking to the architect so that's not an architectural question I don't think so it's not an it's not a question for this architect cuz he's not the one who would be have been involved in coming up with those things or at least he hasn't that wasn't part of his original testimony you have to tie your questions into his testimony and I thought you did good by the way you started but now we've gone a little bit off the track I'm going to try and behave I can tell okay so you also let me just look through here you did say it's not this architect's position so I'm not sure what that means so it was another another architect sure could have been could have been anybody but it certainly wasn't him because he wasn't that wasn't his testimony today so that question is inappropriate for for this witness okay okay uh you also stated on the 20th I believe what we've done we want to give this build building a really fresh look from the exterior is it possible Mr Mino if Levan had done this exterior makeover for a fresher look six years ago making it much more appetizing place to attract retail tenants same thing you're getting into giving an opinion about something that happened six years ago this the the testimony is that as part of this application the other retail use will be renovated exterior the exteriors will be renovated what happened 6 years ago wasn't testified to as far as I'm concerned it's totally irrelevant What's Happening Now what they're proposing and what his testimony is what we're talking about okay is it correct that you met with the historic commission specifically because the applicant's property is with within 1,000 ft of the DNR Canal making 11 property within in historic district yes did you research this site to gain historical perspective to help you design this building uh we researched uh this building this proposed building with respect to the DNR Canal uh pathway and views from such to your knowledge from your research has there ever been a building on this site that was or is greater than three stories greater than three distinct separate floor levels not not in my knowledge no okay greater than two stories not my knowledge I'm okay okay um let's see as you stated on the 20th it's your job to do your best to give this proposed building in the shopping center a fresh look correct I I think I said I was yes we we were trying to give the the center and the new residential building a fresh look you did yes and I believe you also said you want it or it was stated that you want it to meld or blend in so it doesn't shall I say stand out like a sore thumb the what to blend in you don't want the new building out like a sore thumb you want it to blend in with everything so it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb well we want it to blend in yes with the remainder of the shopping center both materially um yes about done you believe or should I say do you want the board to believe that this proposed four-story residential structure where there's never been a structure more than two stories would meld or blend in with the other buildings on this site or within the visible neighborhood structures that are all two stories or less and likely be visible from the canal especially during the winter months or might it stand out like a sore thumb there's no requirement for us to blend in uh what we did study was the topography and the views from the canal to this building we presented that to the historic uh commission did you do a balloon test Mr chairman let me help on that I believe the the the Office Depot building has two floors it's still there it's a a fitness place now but that has two floors so there is is something with two floors in that in that sh just just let it go honey okay I will um if you could from there again what is that you did I'm not clear we took photographs in the wintertime from the canal tow path looking toward ruger's Plaza and we uh photographically engineering wise we Rec created what the building would look like and what the view would be from the canal one yeah five I mean it's important [Music] I'm not sure exactly how many photographs we took I'm not concerned about how many photographs you took I'm concerned about how many positions from the canal that you took you could take one from 15 there's no standard or requirement so we made our presentation I think it was generally accepted by the historic board their comments to us were not really related to that it was more about the exterior architecture of the building okay we're not at the historic commission meeting now I've been told that so I can't ask about what happened at the historic commission meeting um but if you didn't take it from different spots that could be problematic that it could be seen from different places on on the canal where you can take pictures is that possible it it's possible but there's no again there's no requirement even if it is seen from the canal it's for the historic board to determine whether it's a negative impact or not want to well okay that's a historic thing so but I can't talk about that so Ary can I interrupt for a second over here over here hey Mark um I'm looking through our documents I don't see a report from the Delaware Baron Canal Commission do you he mentioned it he mentioned it at the beginning okay okay so you're going to they did do a report what was the answer then if I could hear it my understanding is they did a report I thought we had provided to the township double check and make sure that you have that okay so okay so I think some of this gets to what Ary is speaking of so I think you know it may be good for the board to understand what the similar to the historic commission I know the historic Commission is advisory to this board drcc is not obviously they're separate legal thing but I think it would be good for the board to understand what the drc's comments may have been did they raise similar issues to this and if so how do you intend to address them so I think it may be a good idea to time you provide the testimony about the historic commission's report to also address the drcc just so the board understands where and any comments they may have had that was the plan yes I thank you I just find it and this is going to be a question I hope um difficult to understand how you take pictures of something that doesn't exist that's why you do a balloon test so why wasn't the balloon test done so you could put it up to the four story height to the 43 or 46 ft or whatever it's going to be and then take your pictures from there why wouldn't you do that other than it's not required we what we did is something that's maybe even better than a balloon test we recreated the building where in its actual height the proposed building on the plan and we cut that into the photograph and it was basically invisible from the uh Canal top path at a person's head so so it's some kind of a model and you shop cut I forget what the terminology you cut and pasted you know where the where the building was going to be and it's done engineering control yeah I I understand it's more than what I'm saying but okay balloon test would have been better I think but you guys are the experts I guess um I guess my last question do you want this board to believe that the proposed residential structure that Levan wants to build on a site historically used for General business never residential will it stand out like a sore thumb or will it meld with the existing neighborhood in this most densely populated section of Franklin yeah I don't I'm not sure I understand the could you meld that into a question I don't know how else I can say it I'll try and say it a little slower do you want this board to believe that this proposed residential structure that Levan wants to build on a site historically used for General business never residential will it stand out like a sore thumb or will it meld with the existing neighborhood in this most densely populated section of Franklin my my opinion is that it will not stand out like a sore thumb it will be appropriate for this site um the unique Topography of this of this particular site with a hill uh directly behind it toward the park at Franklin apartment complex and the way the grade Rises along um JFK Boulevard I think it it Nestles in a in a good position uh related to the residential neighbors uh and I I believe that it's a good project for the township and and I stated this at my testimony last time to be supportive of your retail Assets in the town and make them successful and many towns have understood this with a weakening of retail they need to provide walkable resid I'm talking about phys I'm talking about physical I'm not talking about he's trying to answer the question Mr chairman if he could finish yeah but he wasn't answering my question okay I think I'm done well you discussed um the neighborhood people um did you speak to the neighborhood people about this I I have not that's not my role right I heard him okay I have not spoken to the neighbors okay and that's not my role okay so it's for me to ask that of somebody else if that okay if I I probably won't but okay question my last I'm done here but I just want to have a question for you since he kept bringing up historic why am not am I not allowed to bring up things that happened at the historic Commission because number one we weren't there I was we weren't I wasn't we're here this is where we're having the hearing not at the historic preservation committee I was reviewing the report that we got from the historic preservation uh commission there's new ous comments about the appearance of the building and the potential change in the roof and the different elevations of the roof so it's not one straight line there's no no concern expressed anywhere that I can find about doing a vision test balloon test or photo test from any sites let alone four or five that's the report that we have the second thing I think we need to be aware of TW story building can mean different things to different people it's not there's not necessarily a standard we need to compare in feet what's going on how many feet high is the Kmart building how many feet high to and I said and I was going to ask him distinct and separate floor levels but he said no to the question as to know there hasn't been anything greater than two stories and I was going to say well I'm talking about distinct and separate levels l e more pictures and show them e e always have everything matching and then that's a decision what what to implement is up to us any other questions I'm done thanks anyone else wish to question Elizabeth tools tendia Road Somerset New Jersey are we allowed to ask questions about the diagram up here or would that not fall part of his testimony okay so I guess where I am it's difficult to see from the diagram exactly what we're going to see visibly we live behind this area um how is what exactly is covering this building how how visible will it will it be when we're walking down the walking trail for examp very popular in our area it walks right behind along JFK I think it is yeah right up JFK so how visible will this building be like what is going to I see you have little I don't bushes trees in the diagram but it's hard to see how much they cover the building so one of the questions this this is a a view of what the project would look like uh from JFK pretty much at the Marone Plaza uh intersection with the shopping center and so this is taken across the street looking toward where the current Kart building is so that's uh an accurate you know photo montage showing our building at the correct grade um and showing the Landscaping in the foreground along JFK Mr Man is that a new exhibit did you show that at the last meeting I I didn't show it at the last meeting but I showed it to the historic commission I just was the first time this board saying it that's correct yeah I can make it available to this board we're going to be adding that to our submission when we make the response to the historic preservation recommendations okay all right thank you but if you want to mark it as an exhibit for tonight Council I think maybe we should just mark it as exhibit for the record so uh I'm not sure of exhibits yeah um I wasn't here at the last meeting but uh if it was but a we'll call it let's call it A10 to be safe okay A10 and F uh we can fix it later if it's not and one other exhibit that I think might be helpful to your question and maybe people who live behind the project This Is A View From The Park at Franklin apartments so it's a little difficult to see but you see the the in the foreground or the existing Franklin Park Apartments there's a garage structure to the rear of the apartments um you know at close to the property line adjacent to our proposed project and what you're seeing is about a story and a half of the proposed building because the grade of the Kmart site is so much lower than the grade of the apartment project directly Beyond one of the other things about the design of the apartment the site plan of the apartment project is that all the buildings in this portion that are directly adjacent to the site in question are perpendicular to the building in other words they're all uh lengthwise to our proposed building so most of the windows in the community are looking you know across these parking lots at each other they're not looking directly toward um the uh Kmart site so this is an accurate depiction of the height of the building uh cut into an actual photograph in the wintertime of the project okay can we go back to the last photo where you were showing the the um that one so that's the amount of Shrubbery that will be covering that massive building um yes I think there were some comments and I don't know what our response is I think there were some comments during the engineering test testimony when the Landscaping was presented there were comments from the board about uh strengthening the landscaping and I I I don't know whether we're going to be coming back with that or not Mr chairman one of the items you'll note in the historic preservation report uh provide additional vegetative screening along JFK and so when we do come back to address those recommendations that will be part of that presentation but yes this is showing pre receipt of the historic preservation report and so these exhibits don't take into account the changes that we were are considering to do in response to that report these these exhibits were created in on April 4th 20124 okay um I guess my question is since it came up just a little while ago so how tall is the existing Kmart Building compared to the new building like what is height of the current Kmart building and what will be the height difference within new building that you um putting in uh the the of the well first let me just go here e e e e e e e I know that this is an advantage to our community I think it's an advantage to the owners of the property well that would be a a planning question well I'm sure there's other boards that have to hear what we have to say but we have really been very very upset about this plan and that's a comment later for later thank you Mr swarez anyone else Alex Alex Strauss 285 Haslet way sorry if I'm gonna I just came late so sorry if chairman Thomas you can tell me I'm sure you will if I repeat things um Mr Mino I believe yes sir um can you tell me okay so this these plans they don't include unlike many of the developments in the area there's no children's playground is that correct not a dedicated children's playground but there are amenity spaces within the building and within the courtyard right okay yeah unlike the park at Franklin The Grove the Harrison okay they some of them have tennis courts there's no tennis court is that correct that's correct okay and um many of them have dog runs there's no dog run is that correct dog park uh we haven't designated that but there potentially is an area along the back edge of the property along the back edge of the of the parking lot there that could be a dog run could be a dog R the back well that's kind of sloped right uh the bot the very bottom Edge is not there could be a dog walk area along that okay thank you um okay I also notice even like the Grove over at the Grove for Mal the Avalon they even have a uh uh number of like garden plots there's none of that right there's no place to plant things Etc no that's getting Beyond architecture moving on um in light of the fact that you don't have many things you don't have a basketball court is that correct like that's correct okay what is the reason for having this building you know what is it providing that that is not provided at many of the other at the other apartment complexes in the area that's not testimony that he okay should be able to answer all right um I found one thing and that's the uh the storage areas you have a storage area in the basement right you don't want to correct you don't want to quit do you ask him questions about his architectural testimony is you said there's a storage area that's correct yes okay how large are those are those storage lockers can I ask hang on um the area that you're talking about oops is uh this area on the left of the sheet I'm looking at and we have uh storage areas in there that I think the total storage is about 3,800 square fet [Music] m yeah 30 3580 square feet and it's it'll be divided into U you know CAG renable CES okay is that secured is there a camera can people go in there it's the basement so with some bolt cutters I mean you okay is architectural testimony okay you all right um now you talked about the grassy area in front right uh what I call the posted stamp you didn't like that but um that area of glass that you're putting in right that's correct okay is that advantageous to people enjoying themselves because again if you're going to ask about the construction of a playground installing a grass area that's fine is it advant advantageous no let stick to the architectural testimony architecturally architecturally this thing is basically Dead ending the reason this there is because you're changing the course of the road right as opposed to what it is now and and won't people feel they're sitting in the middle there that cars are coming up again we're we're giving a statement your obligation your responsibility is a question I'm asking him okay all right since that's going to be a really Pleasant area okay let me go to the building let me go to the building now um you have balconies I mean I don't understand why I can't ask him about about the building you know know even if it's not in his testimony exactly but you mentioned balconies right you mentioned balconies and right there are balconies right there are uh yes there are Juliet balconies on the street side of the building okay but okay so Juliet balconies so it's like what you're are you opening a a um sliding door glass door okay that's correct okay but not everyone gets a balcony is that correct that's correct okay and the people on the ground floor they don't have unless they're on the courtyard side or the back there's no patios there for them right is that correct not individual to their unit but there's a very two very large Courtyards that they they're free to use right so if they have the apartments on the other side there's no uh they don't have an outdoor space that's correct on on the out exterior side okay what what you might call okay um I noticed you talked about the affordable units um you said did you say that it was according to councel affordable housing or Etc well there is no there is no more counsil on affordable housing there's the uck standards that cover affordable housing current the fair share type okay so was there any kind of system where you were going to put those affordable houses housing uh units in in the building was there any kind of system used system I'm not sure what you mean again we're we're affordable housing is not his expert we've denoted where they are in the building they're on the plans well they're they're throughout the building but there okay but if somebody wanted to have an affordable housing unit overlooking the that's not his aren't that's not I'm telling you you don't listen well I'm asking about the building itself and he's the architect you're asking about someone who what do you do if they want to have a balcony overlooking the pool Mr ask about the questions ask about the design that's what I'm asking about I'm asking about the design asking about the use and the of it we do have affordable housing units overlooking the pool I don't I didn't see any sir okay they're on the plans you asked him he said they have affordable units overlooking the pool and balconies as reference we don't need to spend an hour and a half so he can look it up because you didn't see any why don't you just vote now and vote and vote Yes on this right okay yes sir well if you look at the plan the beige units here are affordable units overlooking the pool Courtyard um there's on the ground floor plan there's there's six six units overlooking the pool Courtyard on the upper floors the upper three floors there are eight per floor overlooking the pool Courtyard so there um I didn't I can't do the math but it's like over 20 units that Overlook the pool Courtyard what the left side the left side okay so the left side okay the beige units the beige units are affordable is that what you're saying uh yeah they're they're affordable one-bedrooms and then there's there's also affordable um two bedroom unit in the in the inside right hand corner I see can I ask you about um so you had three bedroom units is there any reason why you had no like you have okay let me just ask you you have no three bedroom units for non- affordable right that's correct okay and are you where that department complex in the area have three bedrooms for unaffordable I'm sorry I don't understand the question that's another question that lends itself to the people who are running and planning to run the operation now I've I've gone as far as I'm going to go with you ask questions about his testimony his testimony was not about affordable units he he did mention affordable units in his testimony that's not the gist of the test testimony by the architect this stuff is this kind of action is going to stop you have a chance later to say anything you need to in the comment section this is not that section okay in your testimony you said it's fully sprinkled fully sprinkled uh for fire safety right okay so you're confident that it's um fire safe completely sprinkles in the Halls sprinkles in the uh closets or you know crawl space or whatever we meet we will meet every building and fire code that's applicable to this building by the state New Jersey and the township of Franklin okay all right um you talked about package delivery right yes okay so the package room is right on the lobby it's right off the lobby right off the lobby is it like a coded type thing where people could you know Amazon or whatever lockers uh we don't know yet but it'll be the type of thing where people when they get a package and it's delivered while they're at work work or wherever they'll get a text message that when they come home there's a package waiting for them and they can retrieve it either through building staff or through a Amazon Locker we're not at that level of detail yet okay and you said it's like a fully modern Residential Building it's fully staffed um is there a staff overnight that is not an architectural question now I'm I'm about to ask you to sit down okay well um an architectural question okay um an architectural question the building on the say Eastern Avenue side right which would be what the north side that you designed yes okay um that building as it's designed on that side will not get any Sunshine is that correct um North is a little bit at an angle if you look at the bottom of my plan on the screen there's a little round Arrow at the bottom leftand corner and North is actually at a slight angle to the top leftand corner of the drawing when I've shopped It Stop and Shop I haven't seen any sun on the building on on the Kmart well it will get some Eastern Early Morning Sun Eastern but but not Northern I mean well again North is at a slight angle to the building but the PO Apartments won't get any sun they'll get the the side east and Avenue side will get some mornings Sun really yeah do you have bay windows jutting out so they'll get some I don't understand sir well the sun rises in the East right and East is um East would be on the planet would be to the uh right hand corner of the site going toward the back that would be the that would be the um the west side of the building that you designed um is it true as it goes back as it go back the sun is lower right and those many of those apartments will not get any sun right and there's trees isn't there trees in the corner there going back I mean where they get any sun which corner are you talking I don't okay it would basically be the South Southwest toward the Southwest area for Kennedy yes they won't get any sun in the winter right no it's not no it's not why don't you just why don't you just vote for this thing now we know we know that every development has to be yes unless you have a large number of older folks who don't want a warehouse otherwise everything is always a yes in in Franklin we know that well that's not an architectural question either if there's any other people who would like to ask legitimate questions please come forward if not then we'll close and move on to traffic Mr chairman do any of the board members wish to ask the architect questions any board members wish to ask a further question thank you Mr chairman we'll next uh call Carl pinky to come up and provide the traffic testimony just soon as you ready sir we'll swear in do you swear the testimony you're about to get before this board is truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes can you please state your name and spell your last name for the record please s only for the record my name is call with a k peny p is in Peter e h n ke thank you Mr Panky for the purposes of being qualified in front of this board could you Pro provide the board with your experience and testifying either in front of this board or other boards and uh tell them about your lure in New Jersey certainly so again my name is car peny I'm vice president with Langan engineering and environmental service uh I am a registered professional engineer in the state of New Jersey as well as several other states my area of expertise is traffic engineering which I've been practicing for over 28 years and I've appeared in Franklin Township on numerous times in the past uh qualifying as such we accept his qualifications as an expert thank you ass your license is current and my license is current Mr Banky you prepared a traffic impact study for this application correct I have and uh it's dated October of 2023 that is correct uh Council this is part of the submission with the application do you need us to mark it as an exhibit as well well if we're going to refer to it maybe we can mark it anyway if he's going to refer to it during his testimony we'll call it a12 sure so to begin with Mr py if you would just explain for the board and the audience uh what a traffic impact study is and how you arrive at that data and then go into exactly what you've uh detailed in your report certainly uh so as a traffic engineer uh our involvement is to evaluate the uh the traffic flows traffic implications uh Associated uh with a project in this particular instance uh with the D variance uh request for the use uh part of that uh evaluation is also to uh provide information and an evaluation of uh what change in use on this particular site or the granting of the change in use might mean with relation to uh development of the site under the uh the existing zoning in this case the GB uh District uh preparation of a traffic impact study generally follows uh nationally uh recognized standards uh preparation of a traffic study involves uh a an inventory of the existing access of a site uh the uh adjoining roadways traffic control uh devices uh Lane use and so forth uh it also incorporates uh a sampling of uh traffic volumes uh we do that by conducting traffic counts on the adjacent roadway on a representative day uh again that's a sampling and we and traffic does vary dayto day but in general what we find is Traffic Engineers is any given uh weekday is uh particularly now uh Tuesdays through Thursday is representative shows a representative flow uh so we're just looking to identify levels of traffic traffic patterns and so forth and that's done as part of the traffic study uh the traffic study then goes on uh to prepare traffic projections those traffic projections are used are prepared utilizing nationally recognized uh and established standards uh those standards are actually maintained and published by The Institute of Transportation engine engers and that's in a publication known as trip generation it's currently in its I think 11th Edition uh basically it's a clearing house or or accumulation of data of actual traffic counts of at various uses and then a relationship it provides a relationship of those traffic counts to the uses so for instance if we count in an office building we relate the actual observed traffic coming in and out to the size of the office building and then that's established in in this database in terms of residential uh for single family homes we use the number of homes for multif family units we use the number of units uh and that's that's basically the way the the the database is established it is a uh a voluminous database uh for residential development and Commercial development uh it is uh uh quite comprehensive and really does provide a really good basis for transportation professionals to to uh provide estimates of traffic uh what's the name of that book uh it's called trip generation uh and then then uh with regard to a particular site we then need to understand where that traffic is coming uh to and from and that's done by uh looking at existing traffic patterns in an area as well as a demographic analysis in terms of residential development we'll generally look at a municipality's journey to work data that's updated in the census data from time to time uh the same thing for in terms of uh commercial development we'll look at a market area usually centers such as this we'll look at like a five mile surrounding market area in this particular case we actually have uh a stablished traffic patterns so we're able to actually what the existing shopping center traffic patterns are for its commercial tenants uh and could do that a little bit uh and then once we've accumulated that data the snapshot of existing traffic volumes the the projected traffic we assign that traffic to the road system uh and uh and the driveways uh as proposed or in this case the driveways as exist and prepare an analysis of the operation of of driveways uh to determine how they're operating and and whether they'll accommodate the flow of traffic to and from the site in this particular case also dispositive and important uh to this board uh is uh an evaluation of the comparative uh impact of uh development or Redevelopment or reoccupancy uh if that was possible of the uh area of the site that uh is in the GB Zone that's being uh uh uh demolished uh and and and uh the intensity of traffic that might be generated under the GB Zone versus the intensity of traffic yeah right it is on right no real close there you are okay sorry about that uh so so depos dispositive in the D variance case is that comparative analysis between what a residential use on this site would generate compared to uh build out under your GB zone so we did do that and provided that so I want to talk to those those things tonight uh I also had an opportunity to review the uh the engineers review letter the CME review letter I believe that was dated February 27th of 2024 so there's a thing or two that I'd like to talk about in there so so uh let's start with uh the use part of this uh so in the traffic engineering world and in the real world uh the comparison of commercial development to residential development uh basically commercial development is uh in the categories of our highest traffic generators on an hourly basis on a daily basis on a weekly basis commercial development has always been known to be the highest uh traffic generation components of uh of development uh residential development on the other hand is a little bit more moderate uh particularly on a square foot to square foot or unit to uh square foot basis in this particular case uh your GB Zone uh would would basically permit the area that's being developed of the residential area to provide and and and we know this by fact since the building exists upwards of60 ,000 square foot of retail space that's what's proposed to be removed the old Kmart building uh it's being replaced by uh 200 residential units so on a on a straight comparison standpoint in terms of uh consideration of this board as to whether we're intensifying the site keeping the site relatively the same from a traffic standpoint or actually in this case reducing the impacts uh potential impacts from on the site uh uh the the general numbers we look at uh are uh represent your uh your peak hours as Traffic Engineers we want to look at the peak commuter hours when traffic on the roadway system is the highest am peak hour people going tuned from work the PM peak hour when people coming tun from work and starting to do their daily evening activities uh since there is retail on this site we also took a look at the Saturday they peek out when people are active shopping and and when there certainly would be some activity associated with the residential and then we did take a look at overall daily and weekend traffic generation so from a straight standpoint uh removing uh the area that is currently in the GB Zone that could accommodate that rough little over 100,000 square feet and developing it with 200 residential units on a straight comparison of uh the 100,000 or so uh retail to the 200 residential units what you'll see is roughly 90 to 100 less vehicles per hour generated at the driveways coming in and out of the site in the morning peak hour you'll see over 400 to 5 less trips coming in and out of this site uh during the evening peak hour 1H hour period over the course of a day a weekday there's over 5,000 less vehicles that would enter and exit this site with a resid IAL use on this site versus reoccupancy of the 100,000 or rebuilding of the 100,000 square ft or so of retail and then Saturday of course which is your highest generation days for retail there could be close to over 7,000 less Vehicles entering and exiting this driveway now to be fair that's that the driveways uh we do know that retail does have a component of its traffic uh that is captured from the passing traffic stream and that's about 25% uh so if you actually factored that in in terms of an offsite impact As you move away from the site to the east uh on and west or north and south on Eastern Avenue or to the west and south on on JFK Boulevard if you factored those numbers down by about 25% that would be your offsite impact and not your what we have to accommodate at the driveways but you could still do the math quickly and see that we are talking about substantially substantially less uh traffic impact uh to the adjacent roadway with the granting of the use variants for the 200 units versus the site being uh reoccupied redeveloped with a with a higher level of uh commercial retail space so so just one or two things here um first of all all of what you've said so far is completely theoretical right you didn't you didn't take any kind of car counts at any point on any street is that correct well we the traffic study as I said we did sample the existing Center which is has the vacancy in it uh it is theoretical in terms of the comparison but it is using the databases that all Transportation professionals use to project the amount of traffic and in terms of residential and Retail traffic projections it is relatively accurate it as I said the database is very very strong for those uses and and unless I'm completely mistaken that book is written by your colleagues in other words people that are in the same business that you're in so it's the transportation profession that gathers the data and shares it with the Institute of Transportation Engineers that vets the data and then documents it and makes it available to professionals the transportation agencies the design agencies Consultants uh that need that data and and the RO Traffic Engineers is that correct traffic Transportation planners yes okay yep right yep uh so you know that's that's the the the the the uh the general raw uh comparison the other uh the other component of traffic is where is that traffic going to and from now the existing uh and and with regard to JFK Boulevard where uh it leads down into your residential neighborhoods uh that's probably the the the the bigger area to focus the existing shopping center the the the Stop and Shop the uses that are that are in there today approximately 40% of the traffic generated that go into and out of the site today travel to and from uh the south and west on JFK Boulevard with regard to the residential development it will have a different pattern because you have a pattern of people going to and from work uh more oriented the regional roadway system I 280 off of easn Avenue down into new brunck on easn Avenue so the actual uh distribution that we expect from the residential is about half that about 20% of the traffic would head uh down uh JFK Boulevard uh so what that means in in terms of uh maybe some comparative uh numbers is uh heading down or or traveling two way on JFK Boulevard uh to the South and and and west of the site uh you would expect the residential development to generate in the morning uh just under 20 trips two-way trips total uh a retail reuse of the site would generate about 55 trips going up and down JFK Boulevard toward the residential area in the PM it's more dramatic because retail is more active in the PM uh and we would expect just over 20 about 21 22 trips for for the residential being generated heading up and down JFK Boulevard while the retail would generate approximately 166 trips and it makes sense because retail is drawing from the residential neighborhoods from the people that live there that need to to shop uh in the shopping centers now hold on now did you say that in the morning the the the the apartments would generate only 20 trips less than 20 trips on JFK Boulevard heading to the West the rest would be heading to eastn Avenue okay well what's the total number of trips you think would be generated I I think there's probably going to be 400 cars for the people that are living there so so what we know is you know uh in terms of residential development uh your flow traffic uh is is dispersed it's dispersed over a time frame so like if you're leaving to go to work at in the morning uh you don't all get in the car at 8:00 and and leave you don't turn over 400 cars at once people people start leaving at 6:00 in the morning 7 8 9 with covid that's changed a little bit some people are staying home some people are going in at 10:00 some people go to a meeting so that's actually even reduced traffic generation further so we expect leaving this site in the morning over the course of a 1H hour period about 65 Vehicles site only 65 Vehicles 65 vehicles and and what did you what did you estimate as the total number of vehicles being occupied in that in that um that apartment building how many vehicles do you think that that that will generate that that will house in terms of actual parked Vehicles yeah sure so we also have a database uh published by The Institute of Transportation it's you do it's known as parking generation yep uh it's in its sixth edition and again it's a accumulation of act parking counts done at repres at at at similar type facilities that's documented in the Clearing House by The Institute and made available to Transportation professionals so we would expect uh based upon the what we call the 85th percentile uh calculation so it's the high it's it's where we would be seeing the the the peak the design volume just over 300 Vehicles parked about 318 Vehicles can can I please ask a question sure I'm I'm I'm always C curious when we hear these traffic reports very easy to go on your computer and your database we're talking about real life so wouldn't it be more accurate uh for residential traffic to to monitor the traffic from from all the residential uh buildings be behind off JFK to see where else people go how many people leave their home at what time and and and more accurate than than guessing you're guessing at it no we're not guessing as I said the database that we are using is actual actual traffic counts it's a database of actual traffic counts so it's not a guess know where people are going whe they're going on JFK or whe they're going on East NAIA so we do that by demographic analysis of Journey to work uh where people that live in the town generally work you also look at the existing traffic patterns and you use that to evaluate where traffic will will to flow to and from and all of this data is available to your professional uh to review uh this is this is not this is not anything that's not done every day by Transportation plan is across the country we hear it all the time sure but but but but I always ask how about the personal involvement of looking where traffic goes stand there for a day and see what what goes on you haven't done that well it's it's baited into the data we did count the existing driveways as I said we did record the pattern in and out of the existing Stop and Shop and tenants that are there and 40% of the existing shopping centers traffic is heading uh down JFK Boulevard so we we did use we do have that data and that's documented for the review of your of your uh your Township professionals I'm talking about the new residential traffic not the existing so the residential traffic doesn't exist on the site so we use the available professional data that's that's recognized in the industry as being the what's used for design purposes and and the supporting demographic data there's there's uh it's a it's fairly scientific but but it's not real life it is real life so is it very specific to that area is this data specific to the demographic data is specific to Franklin Township the traffic generation is is a database collected nationally but we've found that it is very representative of New Jersey uh traffic generation from retail in fact the database includes many communities that has been contributed from New Jersey so the database uh reflects uh data that's been submitted by professionals across the country uh but we have found through the years when we've gone out and monitored site that it is representative and and does it uh Factor say whatever your sample size may be or whatever the sample may be that goes into that data there might be some specific conditions that exist within that town that may make somebody go left right or you you know take a particular path versus and that may be different in different towns correct that's that's the distribution that's not the generation and the distribution is done by looking at the demographic data where people work what the travel routes are uh we all have great tools now you have Google Earth you can look at the site which is what we do uh for instance the demographic say data says so many people work in Somerville you could you use Google Earth it shows you the the route that somebody from this site would take there based on the time of day and and then you plug it in and go so so we actually have way better tools we than we had 10 years ago as traffic Consultants to determine the paths that people take and it also facts in factors in the changed world that there are now routes that people never knew in the past that are finding it and that's that's baked into uh the calculations we do if um so so just one last question I'm sorry because I'm curious so the demographic data is the census dat fair enough but does the demographic data know where I work it it has a general uh it has an analysis of people that live in Franklin Township where they work so it's it's it's Franklin Township and generally where people that live in Franklin Township is working yes here because at least I have not ever had a census that asks me or my family that tells me that I'm working it's part of the census if there is a question on the validity of the model like how good it is in terms of determining the traffic patterns since since there is a apartment complex right next to where this is being proposed would it be worthwhile or is there already traffic data generated to see how many units are in that uh development and whether or not the actual pattern matches your mod could it be done sure I mean it it the it exists if we could identify from the township the number of units yes CU that is what it that that is the data we use counts that have been done at multif family uh facilities single family housing what commercial and have been documented by it yes if you can isolate a a a use it can be counted yes what does the manual say and the demographics say the people who you said there were what 300 cars parked in the develop yeah based upon the it parking generation accounts it it indicates that we could expect a Peak parking accumulation just over 300 cars about 318 cars all right so what do the rest of the people do that's that's that's the demand by 200 units and it's 65 hour but he just asked you a different question he asked you what do the other people do what are the 80 people doing do they sit home no as as I said you're you're your flows associated with a residential development uh es and flows it starts at 6:00 in the morning there's people going out for you 6:00 to 7: 7 to 8 8 to n some people coming back your traffic Flows In Your communities throughout the day if you go to if you go to any of the apartment complexes your own neighborhood your residential neighborhoods there's going to be some cars in a driveway there's going to be some cars that are going for the day uh and that's you know basically Works there'll be some days that you're working from home but you went to work uh but that's all reflected in the data and that's the es and Es and flows uh the Peak parking for residential development occurs at night generally when people are home what you're saying then that it it could be more than 300 cars involved at the complex but at any one time during the day that's what you'll likely find parked there you would find that 318 for uh for a residential would be what you would probably see sometime after 8:00 at night to 6:00 in the morning you would see it less during the day as people have left the site heard a lot of these reports over the years I'm not seem aw trying to be I I understand I understand what happens to the there's there's 200 Apartments correct and not everyone has a uh two vehicles not everyone has a vehicle what we know what what we know uh from multif family development the the parking demands are ranging someplace from 1.2 per unit up to two per unit and that's that's generally it the it the the the residential site Improvement standards set the uh the Peak parking inclusive of visitor parking at 1.5 per unit for two bedrooms it's 1.8 per unit that's based on studies done by the Department of Community Affairs that's your ordinance that's that's that's your ordinance that's and and it works because it provides enough parking to safely accommodate the peak demands so the standards would for this development would call for what 150 parking spaces if it were said one no so so you've got the 200 unit 250 I you have the 200 units the standards are actually calculated uh on on the site plan uh you have 691 bedrooms that would be parked at 1.5 per unit the 123 two bedrooms that would be at 1.8 per unit I believe it is I believe those are the numbers I have to recheck them on the plan and then the the couple of three bedrooms I think is the is at 2.0 or 2.1 or something like that but that's generally how the calculation is done to uh identify that the parking that's needed to support it and and that's not designed for every last vehic space to be used it's generally designed so that there's access space spaces because you don't want a situation where somebody's coming in and he's circling through a parking lot to find that last parking space and it's also set to provide for the needs of visitor spaces so what is it excuse me what is the 65 is the trips is for a peak time that's for a peak for the peak hour so in a one hour period in the morning uh generally occurring the the roads peaking in this area about 7:15 to 8:15 during that hour we would see we would expect to see about 65 Vehicles associated with the 200 units leaving the site going out to do their daily work and we would expect probably about 20 I think it's about 20 vehicles coming back from wherever they might be going does does your software know that that I used to have two cars now I only have one car so so so there's one car traveling out out of my my my my devel when when I leave well it reflects the general demographics of and characteristics of of residential which reflect uh you know the varying occurrences by different family units sure people people do different things yes I I just think this software is very impersonal and and and not not not actual it's it is actual because it's it's based on actual traffic data collection actual traffic counts of uh of uh residential communities of commercial communities and it has been found to be very accurate for the purposes of understanding and designing safe access safe roadways safe facilities and parking okay based on your on your findings are are you going to recommend uh let's put it this way is the site circulation plan adequate or does it need improvements are you going to recommend any traffic uh control measures anywhere uh so so that's the second part uh the traffic study did run through an analysis of the uh the driveway system uh there there's two driveways obviously to the site there is the right turn and right turnout driveway on easn Avenue eastn Avenue along the frontage uh had been widen in the past when rut Plaza was built that has the third lane that runs along the front of the site and then the driveway on uh John F Kennedy Boulevard which aligns somewhat opposite the uh The Jug Handle from eastn Avenue uh provides for right turn inbound movements as you're aware left turns in or restricted at that at that location and it provides for right turn out and left turn out uh so we have done an analysis uh with the uh projection of uh reup or or or the McDonald's being completed and and reoccupied the 200 units being fully occupied and the and the retail uh development the Stop and Shop which is there of those driveways uh when we do that analysis Traffic Engineers uh uh basically uh go through a modeling uh which uh calculates in various factors the traffic flow peaking factors on the roadway uh certain geometric conditions and the result of that uh uh uh results in delay uh calculations which are then related to what we call levels of service in terms of levels of service uh the gradation is basically like an old grade school report card it runs from a to F A obviously being very good levels of service very little delay F being uh uh poor levels of service some delays some queuing uh it could mean a few different things at a traffic signal it might mean that when you get to the traffic signal you see the light green you come up at the end of the the queue but you don't get through and you have to wait to the next signal that that that would be representative of an e or an f- level of service at a unsignalized driveway it might mean that your two or three cars back waiting as each person waits for a gap to enter the traffic stream into your term so you so you might be there for uh a little bit of uh delayed time as you move forward in the queue it doesn't mean that everything stopped it doesn't mean that everything is is locked up so uh in terms of the levels of service the the driveways on East E Avenue are projected to continue to operate at what we call level of service C uh which is a good level of service it's generally a considered a design level of service with regard to the JFK Boulevard uh entrance basically right turns in or unimpeded will flow into the site as they do do today the right turns out uh also are generally uh unimpeded operate at good levels of service they're certainly influenced by the traffic signal at eastn Avenue there's some times that queue comes back uh towards the driveway but then clears out uh but the right turns out work work uh work relatively well the the weakest movement is the left turns uh exiting the driveway and and I'm sure you've all gone to stop and shop and what whatever time of day you may be able to get right out and then there's sometimes a day where you might have to wait a vehicle you might be two vehicles back uh basically what we're seeing is in the morning peak hour uh it operates at what we know is level of service e uh with Capa capacity remaining uh so it's it's it's while you're being delayed you're getting out during the PM peak hour it is into the what F range which means you may be back you may see cues of about four vehicles that you're going to progress through and then on Saturday it's actually uh in the E level of service so when you see something like that you do evaluate whether or not uh additional or or change traffic control uh may help the situation uh see C in their review letter suggested we uh we do a warrant analysis and and consider whether a traffic signal is appropriate at that location uh yes I will so uh when you look at uh changing uh a regulation or regulatory device that controls traffic Transportation professionals follow uh the a document that's published by the Federal Highway Administration which is known as the manual uniform traffic control device it is the governing uh uh uh document for the use the appropriate use of regulatory devices throughout the country uh it is they are standards so so in terms of when you use a stop sign when you use uh no parking signs and so forth it lays out those situations and Engineers rely on those uh and requ and use those to determine the appropriate use in terms of changing traffic control from a yield to a stop uh to a traffic signal uh a traffic signal has a is a has a whole uh uh analysis that needs to be done to determine whether it's appropriate because traffic signals aren't panaceas they're not always appropriate for use uh so in the manual of uniform traffic control devices the init the original the the beginning section talks to uh what's known as warrants there's a series of I think it's 12 or or 14 warrants that run through conditions that must must it's not look at it it's must be met in order to certify by an engineer that a signal is is warranted at a location so that's why they've asked us uh to consider doing doing a a warrant analysis so those warrants uh involve uh the levels of traffic both on the driveway and on the highway uh it uh it it evaluates various conditions there's the initial three warrants are which is what's mostly used is what's known as a peak hour warrant you look at the flows that are happening at a peak hour uh and if you meet certain volumes uh you would meet the peak hour warrant uh Transportation professionals and and agencies generally don't accept the peak hour warrant alone as being satisfactory because it's a 1H hour period and it's generally recognized that you can have times of a day where you have some delays that dissipate during other times of the day uh where a peak hour warrant is usually accepted by Transportation review agencies and approving a traffic signal would be in unique situations such as uh an industrial building that lets everybody out at 5:00 and we have to clear out a parking lot that's generally where that warrant comes into play uh we then go into what's known as a 4-Hour warrant which looks at the highest 4 hours during a day to see if we meet volume criteria we then go into an 8 Hour warrant usually if you meet uh if you don't if you don't meet a peak hour warrant you're not going to start meeting those 4our warrants uh we will agree to to do the warrant I I can tell you though I have looked at the peak hour warrant at the intersection and we do not meet a peak hour we're not even close so I don't expect once we go through a full warrant analysis that we will be in a position where a traffic signal could be approved at that location by an engineer so the intersection currently operates those delays that occur will occur uh but again uh those those those those delays uh the location and the intersections all established uh and uh and it exists how would your recommendations change if this were 100% retail it it uh it depends obviously retail would generate more traffic uh reoccupancy of the building wouldn't automatically trigger a signal at that location because there's no obligation to re-review that uh that site uh but the higher levels of traffic might trigger a traffic signal uh but again a traffic signal is is not a Panacea There's issues with a traffic signal particularly at that location we have a traffic signal at New Brunswick we have a traffic signal at Easton they're both relatively close uh you know putting a traffic signal just that a commercial driveway in between may or may not have a negative influence on on those locations so it's not it's not a simple just put a traffic signal world to solv there's other influencing factors that need to be considered in this case I don't think a traffic signal would be appropriate uh because of the condition there are some benefits associated with how the flow comes from Eastern Avenue there are periods where there's no westbound flow because of the the traffic is uh stopped and the lefts are stopped on on Eastern Avenue and there are periods when when traffic from the West is controlled by new brunz Avenue so there is some gapping happen happening out here uh and then the design of the intersection is also interesting whoever originally designed it they created that little median area which gives sort of the ability to Stage your way out which provides some benefits that are not actually reflected in our model also but that's not to say you guys all drive it I've driven it there are times when you hit it and you wait a vehicle and and and left out uh that condition is not going to go away it's going to remain I would suggest it's not going to with with the resident development it's not going to be substantially different than what you experience today hey how about the circulation plan within the yeah I think Mr Turner really spent a lot of time on his design uh and testified to his design I I would say that uh the plan as presented by by Mr Turner does incorporate a substantial Improvement in on-site circulation uh you know some of the key elements that I like about the plan is the realignment of the central inbound and outbound lane from eastn Avenue which now currently terminates at the face of a retail building uh rather than as as it's now been designed uh Serpentine a little bit to feed uh the the commercial development the Stop and Shop and the retail uh that uh that remains in the in the fitness center so I think that's a great design element uh Mr Turner has also added a substantial amount of uh pedestrian accommodation throughout this site there are a lot of sidewalks uh being added and and proper connectivity uh directly to stoping shop out out out through the parking lot connecting to the adjacent retail so those those elements are are are all appropriate the remaining portions of it really are are per standards uh your parking lots are are designed in accordance with appropriate standards uh 24t aisles 9 by8 parking spaces uh there's nothing unique or unusual about them and they're all those standards are all established to create uh safe traffic flow the other thing I I I would note that I that I like about the plan is uh if you recall how the Kmart is when you come in from the driveway uh on JFK Boulevard you you immediately hit uh the multiple ends of parking aisles I think there's four of them uh he's tightened those down they're now only two uh reducing the points of conflict on that segment of road coming in from J JFK Boulevard to the uh what I would call I guess the East West circulation aisle from Eastern Avenue so there are some good improvements uh in design elements that have been Incorporated uh into this site certainly McDonald's this uh the planning board vetted that and uh have Incorporated design elements that are under construction in in that uh that portion of the site so overall I think uh it's an enhancement uh the the site I think is improving tell me exactly how you uh establish the uh levels of service of uh CNF did you have somebody out there Counting Cars yes so the traffic study documents the traffic counts that were taken uh at the driveways uh so that's the base we then project that forward we put some growth on that we added in the uh traffic generation from McDonald's uh and and uh that was documented in a traffic study that was considered by the planning board uh so we added that back in and then we add in the traffic that we uh estimate will be generated by the residential development and then there's a modeling procedure uh and and that modeling procedure again is is is the modeling procedure used by all Transportation professionals it's not mine it's not a guess it is calculated uh it has been become quite complex over the years it factors in an awful lot of data awful lot of the conditions uh in order to try to become as scientific and and and accurate as possible what I started in this my career 28 years ago we did these calculations on basically a piece of paper and with some some rough numbers uh and uh quite frankly we're pretty much getting the same answers we had when we when we were doing it back then because uh uh capacity is capacity you know the roadway capacity you're able to basically relate the demand to the capacity I have one as part of your analysis did you look at any crash history on East or JFK I did not no why would that not be something you typically include in your report uh we don't typically uh uh look at it uh you know in this case we were we were more focused on the comparative traffic generation associated with a d variant uh and then and then supplemented that with the driveway analysis in in this case I think the more dispositive analysis is really the change in use and what it means if we if we were intens ifying the use and gener if we were going the other way from residential to commercial then we would be looking at this a little bit differently we'd be looking at offsite impacts we'd be looking at uh uh uh does the driveways and access need to change in this case we have an established Center at one ton generated much higher levels of traffic and the driveways were designed for that and we're re we're regenerating at a much lower level so that's the way we prepared the traffic study understood that makes a lot of sense um I would counter that by saying that this is a use variants and as your planner will attest to the the benefits need to significantly outweigh the detriment so I I would recommend um that we do include um some sort of Crash analysis and which would further substantiate the benefit to this to the surrounding area sure we can we can request what we do is we go to your Police Department you have it on record and we'll request three years of data and and see what it says questions actually that was actually one of my suggestions that a c the uh crash data to be figured out especially on that left onto JFK because even now I know it's acting as an F or an e taking that turn now still tough and even though the old use is was permitted with a higher higher intensity it's still going to add more traffic and even now there's issues that are just seen there so I think you should take some extra time on that uh just in terms of the base count so everybody's aware they did do their counts in June of 2023 so it was done during school traffic and everything else as well that's one one of the things that we did evaluate just to make sure it wasn't during done during a CO time either because that would be more restrictive on what we'd be seeing but I would like to still see the warn analysis on that turn because I think we're going to have some safety issues there potentially um and also just in terms of peak hour with your retail use I think the peak hour might be the roadway peak hour Network would be the same but I don't think you'd see as much peaking in the like I think you said the peak hour 7:15 to 815 in the morning in the morning correct I don't think your retail peak hour would have be there entering from the site ing the roadway not the roadway Network itself so when you're looking at that comparison I just want to say that the afternoon is going to reflect the worst of the conditions as he said the afternoon and Saturday are more dispositive and the daily I think is is dispositive obviously there's a lot more interactive and in outlow associated with a commercial development rather than a residential development yep I just wanted to make sure the board is aware sure I I don't disagree with that statement here's why I'd like you to take a hard look at a stoplight on Kennedy um you're you examined it or testified Us in relation to left turns out of your project on the Kennedy Bullard the reality there is that there are a great number of left turns coming across the from across the intersection we have that data too well I want to make sure because a few years ago there's a lot of people that live in that apartment complex used to be east and north and have to make a uturn there to get on Avenue to go toward 287 and it it was such a problem a few years ago there Association actually owned a property on New Brunswick Road that bordered the back of their development and they came into the planning board with the idea of extending their main driveway through that property out to New Brunswick Road to avoid that that left turn so there there are conflicting movements there correct and that is factored into the analysis uh so what I will do is I will share the uh the peak hour analysis we did uh with CME uh I'm pretty sure they're going to draw the same conclusion I I would love to spend my clients's money and and tell you that uh you know because it would be very easy for me to say hey and by the way we're generating less traffic and we're going we're going to put a traffic signal in and and I I'd leave it to your board professionals to advise you also we have to follow the rules we you know if you don't meet warrant and an engineer can't certify the warrant you can't install the signal it's just it's as simple as that and and and and you see it all the time in the news we're trying to get a signal here we're get trying to get a signal here we trying to get a signal here there's no such thing as a political warrant there's no such thing if an engineer can't put a seal on it and say it meets warrants it it's it it can't be an authorized device it is a regulatory device that has legal obligations and as I said it also one of the reasons is because signals do have their own problems they increase rear accidents as I said in in a system of signals that could create other issues so we are very careful uh when we do that it's one of the reasons why you're starting to see a lot more roundabouts doesn't meet the requirements it doesn't meet the requirements I just want to make want to make sure make sure your engineer has the data and and and can yes because that isn't just a one sided left turn so to speak it's it's almost like a four-way inter it's a four-way intersection yes any other questions just one question Mr chairman over here when you uh evaluated um the the retail versus the residential um scenarios did you make any different assumptions on trip distribution the percentage of people that would make left or rights out of the different intersections yes as I testified to before we We There is a different distribution for the residential versus the commercial the commercial has a lot higher distribution going down to your residential neighborhoods on JFK Boulevard the residential has a higher orientation to Eastern Avenue to the regional roadways heading towards nor New Brunswick or heading towards I 287 okay thank you and that makes sense it's logical people are traveling to distances any other questions all right then we'll open to the public again questions on traffic I'm sure that has a high interest from everybody can you hear me okay yeah right thanks my name is Melissa Ido I live at One Evergreen Road Somerset so right off of JFK um around the traffic patterns that he is speaking about um I have really one specific two-part question for the traffic expert my first question to you and I'll give you a little bit about my background very briefly so I am a principal consultant and software architect so not specifically around traffic or architecture but uh an expert on data science so with that said U my first question to you the first part of my question would be when you did the comparison on residential versus commercial in the proposed site and you said that the traffic patterns and your data model and Analysis showed that it would go down versus a commercial site that you know you based it on roughly a 100,000 square foot commercial versus a 200 uh apartment complex residential resulting with your data model calculations of 318 cars for that site my question was what was the Assumption of the commercial based upon what type of commercial establishment shopping center it's a retail shopping center uh today uh so the GB Zone would allow you know Kmart or or other commercial tenants that are permitting the GB zone so so there is a general database for department store and shopping center basically the same uh so it's it's based upon if I was designing this from from from scratch it's the data we would use to design this Center okay so General nothing specific about the type of commercial well that's always it's always the case it's uh you know where you get striations in in in commercial development and differentiations is like a supermarket a supermarket is a higher generator but in this case we know what the supermarket's generating because we we got traffic counts not likely we're going another Supermarket here uh you'll probably get a General commercial another like Kmart if it's possible we've heard the testimony of the difficulties uh in trying to accomplish that uh but in general a shopping center is generally made up of a a mix of different uh types could be some restaurants could be Pizza all of those come together they all have a little bit of varying Generations but when they come together at that size what we find is the general level of traffic that's generated uh and we and that we can project utilizing the database okay thank you um the point there obviously being that depending on the Assumption for the commercial model could highly or very significantly statistically impact your projection that it's actually going to be lower than what a residential would bring I I deping on the typ conf say given the size even if you were to take 100,000 and reduce it by half uh be we would still we would still have a calculation that showed the residential to be substantially lower generator it is just as a use a lower generator than commercial uh for instance the McDonald's is a very high generator it captures a lot of its traffic from the adjacent roadway but it is probably generating traffic very close to what the residential would generate we all go to McDonald's we see the flow of traffic in and out of those types of uses they are high generators okay thank you and then the second part to that question and thank you for answering the first um I thank the board for bringing up the point about the traffic studies and accidents I think that's a very valid point and concern for the community as a whole um my question or my request to the board and to you in addition to any traffic studies just in general around that area are we able to add a statistical analysis on the number from police reports or whatever records we may have about the number of accidents that are linked to residential travel so you know people on the weekends things of those nature and how much that might contribute to additional accidents and I'm specifically very interested because I live right on that road yeah the accident data uh when we obtain accident data we actually get uh the accident reports I'm sure if you haven't had one uh but I haven't there's been plenty behind my house though which is why I so the accident reports are detailed on the accident the location the cause uh it doesn't go into what your trip was uh so I don't know how you would do that or whether it even be dispositive or anything what we'll look for in the accident data is to see if there's a uh a a recurring pattern that's correctable by a geometric Improvement or regulatory device Improvement uh you know for instance with the driveway if we're seeing you know 15 leftand turn right angle accidents it's something that you know is is saying there's a problem there maybe it's a sight distance problem or something like that uh you know if we're seeing rear end accidents it probably is the traffic signal and people are not paying attention uh swerves and so forth these days is related to cell phone use you you'll find that out uh so that's what we'll look for in terms of the statistical analysis to see if there's something that's in there that's correct reable uh sometimes it you know you you'll see if you're always going to see accidents this I'm I have no doubt I'm going to find accidents here uh at traffic signals you'll always find you know 15 20 accidents a year uh they occur yeah specifically and I guess I'll be very blun I'm an ex New Yorker I'll be be very transparent about that but specifically my concern can you guys hear me still specifically my concern is Will putting a 200 residential unit in there increase accidents that could be more residentially related uh DUIs partying on the weekend people tired coming home from work versus you know unless it's a a bar or uh a restaurant or things of those nature I'm specifically concerned that increased residential traffic up and down that street that I live on could result in more social residential related type accidents and overall more increase in accidents and potentially fatal accidents on that road okay that's kind of like a comment that should come in at the end but we want to let you finish but that should be enough thank you that's thank you okay thank you Kiki anastas excuse me 3204 Enclave Circle and thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask my questions and thank you Mr Pinky for your um very enlightening um report and I remain hopeful that with so many um sophisticated databases and models we will be able to solve all the traffic congestion problems in Franklin and in Somerset County particularly on Eastern Avenue because that's where the problem is and this particular study that you did uh happens to be right on Eastern Avenue so here is my my question um are you aware or have were you made aware before you started the study that Eastern Avenue is uh has the most uh fatal accidents and of course many of the previous speakers um touched on this but we happen to have the car's um honor of having the most traffic accidents in the entire Somerset County on Eastern Avenue um and so so my question is did you take into consideration and did you have firsthand account outside of the databases and by firsthand account I mean did you or your assistant or assistants personally drove during peak hours am and p.m. on Eastern Avenue to determine the real actual frustration that many of us who do use Eastern Avenue go through every single day Sir Mr chairman I just want to interpose an observation and or objection we don't have benefit of any report that the individual is referring to we don't know for instance she mentioned fatal accidents Easton Avenue is bigger than just the frontage of this site and so those accidents could be anywhere and I'm not sure how that is related to his testimony okay so my question then is and I'm I apologize for interrupting because you were ready to answer when you do these traffic studies specifically for this particular project are you looking at traffic at at what radius what radius does your study include is it a five mile radius is it a two block radius because honestly with the information you gave us I have this the the feeling that you basically looked at that one block right Eastern Avenue is our main thoroughfare it does not exist in isolation with the rest of the Town sir that that that's correct so in terms of an analysis uh we we specifically look at our driveways uh and the frontage uh with regard to Regional impact I did talk to that and I talked to the fact that the use the change in use will reduce the ultimate the the prior existing as well as the potential future uh Generation by commercial so uh there's less of an impact on those very issues you're talking about in the potential regeneration from this site so for instance if for some reason this board denied this application and uh the world continued to change the you know and and and our ownership our client successfully finds uh retail tenants and and is able to redevelop this site which he's told us that we've had this problem the problem is exist and he doesn't think he can but under the existing zoning he'd be able to do that the level of traffic that would be generated as of right without any obligation to do offsite uh improvements uh would be much higher than the use so there is a there is a going to the positive and negative criteria there is a positive to this application in terms of uh reducing the building can always come down so I won't use the word imp perpetuity but for a long time to come the potential tra additional traffic generation from this site that the GB Zone would otherwise permit occur that's also subject to a success by our client which he's explained to you the difficulties they're having thank you and are you aware of the fact that there is an ongoing study on Eastern Avenue funded by federal and state and County money um there there are many studies I'm not familiar with any any specific ones but there's always Transportation studies under underway so if there's a specific one uh that you think is we should take a look at I'd be happy to to answer your prior questions too yes I am familiar with the site I have visited the site uh specific to this project during during peak hours midday but I am also a traveler or along Eastern Avenue at different times of the day for different reasons on a less frequent basis but I I do I am aware of Easton Avenue from New Brunswick uh to 287 okay good thank you that's good um okay so um so yes there is a study um which is funded and it will take several years um uh that is funded by you know Federal and County and state money because of the serious problem and I um yeah I was apparently you did not there's only one study and it's going to take probably up to five years to be completed I'm sure the zoning the esteemed members of the zoning board will be uh more um able than I am to estimate what that completion will be I I was just want so what you're saying is that you did not take that study into consideration when you did your traffic report I'm just going to say the report is going to 5 years to complete by definition he can't take that into account until it's complete okay thank you uh that's what I thought okay so my other question is are you aware of another study um which uh the township of Franklin has undertaken uh this is a more recent one and it's U from the uh Township Council uh this is a study that's related to trucks okay and I mean uh uh the 18wheeler associate the ones that um are related to the uh business and industry Zone which is really sort of bordering Eastern Avenue to one extent and because so many residents of Franklin were complaining for those of us who live in the business and industry Zone about traffic I mean uh track specific Al traffic congestion related uh and risks to safety um associated with these trucks um we have an ongoing traffic study going on uh which basically identified um at least 10 major intersections that are uh according to your um to the standards that you that you give uh they were given a grade of f they fail uh for safety reasons and would you agree with what some residence mentioned that traffic is not something that you can isolate in one zone such as the business and industry and that these trucks and the traffic congestion but particularly as it's generated by by these trucks spills into and Spills over into to the rest of the township we had a whole lot of people that testified to that who live in different parts of Franklin outside of the business and industry zone so did you take into did you have a chance to take a look at the material and the information excuse me that um is provided by that particular contractor that has been uh employed by the uh Township of Franklin and was that study taken into consideration for your report and the spillover of traffic from trucks heavy trucks ma'am to East ma'am yeah a while ago when you gave an answer before and you asked me if he had looked at any studies he said he had looked at no studies okay so so you're actually took five minutes to ask a question that's already been answered I'm sorry I thought he only referred to the one preview study the federal study all right okay this is a totally different study and all I'm saying is that it it it's a little anyway I don't want to make a statement I'll wait until the end um my next question has to do with traffic safety and are you the person to ask a question on traffic safety or is there a different different person that I need to wait for is you can ask the question I can ask the question okay so there was a lady the lady who's standing right behind me waiting to talk that talked about a a a path that the ex the residents of uh the area um on JFK that goes along JFK Boulevard a walking path right I don't know if you were here uh and you heard that but there is a walking path along JFK that they take um in the morning to take their walk and um and clearly there is a a driveway right on JFK on JFK Boulevard so I'm guessing many of these people take a walk before they go to work so it would be 6:00 7:00 8:00 depending when they go to work or when they go to school Etc uh do you think that the traffic generated those 60 cars would present a safety hazard for these neighbors that for years have been using this walk path to get their exercise no the the the paths and sidewalks there's a concrete sidewalk along our side of the road there's actually a mum sidewalk across the other side but at the driveways there are appropriate controls the driveway stop controlled and there's appropriate uh uh ramps and and markings uh for pedestrians but a pedestrian uh in a driveway environment uh is in a Crossing environment uh and uh you know that exists throughout the world so it's dying to accommodate uh and that's just a matter of uh rules of the road motors have to follow the rules of the road and the pedestrians have to follow the rules of the road okay so in this case what kind of signs and measures would you take to reduce the risk to the life of pedestrians on JFK walk walk path at our driveway I believe the crosswalks exist we we could recheck that if they need to be repainted but the stop signs and sidewalks and the uh the crosswalk exip so uh those elements are already Incorporated in the driveway I'd have to look at the plans to see if we're updating them or if they should be updated okay thank you and my last question and thank you for your patience uh the 60 uh the number 60 for cars that um you estimate as um exiting the uh the specific uh uh Residential Building um you identified it as between 7:15 and 8:15 a.m. right so there's 60 cars that exit um during that hour yet um we all know um or all of us who are drivers and working folks know that uh rush hour is from 7 to 9: or 6:30 to 9:30 and so then um why did you I understand why you took the the peak that one hour but if we multiply that by two or three which is is the these days the length of the morning Rush Hour wouldn't that increase the number of cars uh by three like 60 times three well so so yes to answer directly but we're looking as engineers and in our analysis programs we're looking at we focus on the peak hour so you're absolutely correct there's flow there's traffic flowing 24 hours a day we do see generally a curve on on roadways particularly axis roadways where traffic starts to ramp up at 6:00 in the morning Peaks around 7 7:30 8 and then comes down around 10 little bit of bump at lunch down in the afternoon and then starts bumping up again 2 3 4:00 and hit and Peak at 5 we look to find the top of that curve so what we're seeing on our traffic count data is the top of that curve is generally happening from 715 8:15 so that's why we focus on that Peak so and that's and then we superimpose our Peak on top of that but there's absolutely if if if if if you have that Peak here that 6 to 7:00 there certainly could be 40 40 30 40 cars coming out of the site 7 you know from 600 to 7: and there's certainly could be 50 60 cars coming out of this site from 8 to 9 uh those those are sequential hours but for analysis purposes we want to analyze the worst because the other hours will be better yes sir I I totally understand that but isn't it more realistic to say that during morning rush hour there will be 60 time three or let's just say conservatively 60 * 2 120 cars exiting from 7 to 9 that particular location um rather than saying it the way you said it me you could look at the other way which is you look at the daily traffic on a daily basis we're looking at roughly 1,300 trips associated with the residential coming in and out versus over 5,000 for the commercial if it was reoccupied so you could look at it 24hour you could look at it for 3 hours but from an analysis standpoint when we analyze the driveway to determine what's the proper traffic control the models are all based upon the peak hour because that's that's corre that's correct the models I understand I don't know your profession I I respect it but the majority of us when we refer to traffic congestion we talk about rush hour okay and so all I'm saying is that could perhaps make more sense if you gave us the number of cars for the morning rush hour from 7 to 9 and include the peak I'm just saying that the way you present it uh gives a less realis IC and and and at lower number of cars that's all I think I think what you're forgetting though is that it's a comparative analysis so if he's going to double the the the the traffic for for the residential since it's comparative analysis he's also going to double the amount of traffic for the retail because it's it's always going to be a comparative analysis yes but and he's choosing the worst hour for that analysis yes I understand but but compare this exact comparison with all due respect is is comparing apples and oranges because the peak hour 7:15 to 8:15 is not a peak hour for any retail they're not even open at that time so the peak hour would be 1012 up to 3:00 for someone who's going shopping I think I think he said that I think he his testimony agrees with you I believe he said that the afternoon Peak was is more or dep positive or I think that's and the Saturday he spoke to that I think he said that the afternoon Peak and the Saturday Peak is more telling okay if could was that your testimony yes yes I agree I'm not trying to said but it's it's it's it's you have you can't again if you if you double the you know if they take two hours of the morning for the for the residential then you have to compare it to the retail which is going to be doubled as well so it's still going to be that same order magnitude it may actually be worse because I would think perhaps I don't know how many people go at 7:15 shopping but they might go at 9:15 so his numbers he's going to have more retail numbers if he goes later in the morning then but I know I leave for work I leave for work at 7 o'clock I don't go to Target at 7 o'clock but I might go to Target at 9: okay so I I'm assuming that as you go later in the morning there's going to be more traffic for the retail okay that's just the way we all operate yeah I I thank you thank you so much and please thank you for um understanding that I'm not an expert on this uh thank you for allowing me so much time okay thank you next Elizabeth tools tendia Road Somerset New Jersey um my first question is I just wanted to know if you could remind me of how many parking spaces have been ear for ear Mar for this building for residents I don't have the specific breakout there'll be a, 1,100 on the overall site but I don't have them by parking field so you all allocated a th000 parking spaces while you're anticipating 315 Vehicles that's that's for the entire site including the retail okay um so I mean that's still rather substantially over the projected 315 car amount that's also supporting the Stop and Shop the the the chase the the retailers so it's supporting the whole property but how many are just going to be in that part where I don't have that number Mr Turner went through those numbers I think the parking calculation for the residential use is 387 Vehicles 387 okay um so so based on what you're saying just from the numbers your the numbers that you put out about the 60 um five cars estimating leaving during rush hours you're saying that you anticipate that 16% of those residents will actually go out in the morning for work during regular normal hours correct based upon based upon uh patterns that are established based on act counts uh it people flow out over a course of time 3 four hour period so yes and then some people stay home some people go out and come back so uh yes so 16% of the residents will be leaving there between 7 and 900 a.m. and the all the other hour per that's a 1H hour period the 65 vehicles that projected occurs in a 1H hour period there could be 65 Vehicles the following period there could be 65 period the prior 1 hour period okay traffic flows over a period of time so the 65 people are for one hour for one hour so then you're saying that 114 people were coming in every hour for the Kmart correct because I think if that was accurate they wouldn't have gone out of business well it's for it's for a retailer of that size obviously Kmart is is out of business and let me just add that I have um we're in a three we have two children um and up until the point that they went to college uh we had four vehicles in front of our house so I I find it difficult to believe that this number is going to be accurate if there's going to be three bedroom apartments I'm sure there's going to be high school stud students in addition to the the people that are living there the there's not an extensive busing system here so they're going to need Transportation um also my other question is the traffic volume study that you have in your report it it says that you I guess assess the Turning movement on June 1st and you listed times and on June 3rd and you listed times is that accurate those are the dates yes okay but during June ruers was out this is R called ruers Plaza ruter is a very um I mean eastn Avenue leads right up to ruers Main Campus so I'm trying to understand why would you do the survey during a time when when it's not really an accurate projection of what's happening there is some influence by ruter there's no doubt uh we started the study uh when we were engaged and we caught it before the local schools were out so uh got the data as soon as we could get it but Ruckers was out in May and your study started in June I I would not dispute that the traffic along Eastern Avenue may be a little higher but they don't a little higher ruers is substantially large ruers generates traffic throughout the day that that's that's correct in terms of overall traffic uh increases during the peak hour it's probably not as influential as you think okay um also in your report you um listed that um when you're listing your generated traffics one of the things that I don't understand is so you're stating that um by putting in a retail by putting a residential the traffic will be less because we won't have the retails coming in but when I shop in that area I generally visit multiple stores so I will go to stop shop I'll go to the dollar store I might go to Crunch so I guess my question is won't that retail traffic still be coming in regardless because it is still a retail area regardless of whether you're putting up residential or not correct and that's factored into the projections uh so that is factored into those numbers that's uh that those numbers are drawing and sharing and in fact that's part of what I think the testimony you heard from the owner was one of the problems is they're not able to uh attract uh a primary tenant that draws traffic that helps to support these other developments which is one of the reasons why they want to go to the the residential which will help bring a mass of population here that'll alternatively help to support the tenants in this facility yes there's interaction between the different uses uh but that is factored into the projection it's reflected in the typical operation of a shopping center so my question is you have like 114 down for Kmart so you're saying that that number was reduced that that that reflects that that's that the additional traffic that would be drawn by that space and certainly those people that are drawn may also go to the tenants and and that's what's what that that's that's the purpose of an anchor like a Kmart they would draw that traffic but then that traffic may see the jewelry Center or may see the fitness center or or make a purpose to go there and then go to the fitness center so so that's that's the whole discussion you heard a couple of months ago with regard to the attempts to try to get anchors here and the inability to do that and what we're trying to what what what the residential does is an alternative way to create a sort of an anchor that provides a permanent pool of people that will be interested in the Stop and Shop and shopping there and some of the uses there the fitness center or or uh some of the other tenants the the food purveyors and so forth okay I guess we're have a problem then is then your numbers are kind of scooted then because then you would also have to it's like you're showing them as just coming in for Kmart but you're not showing them as coming in the residential is at 20 but technically the residential is going to be more than 20 if you add on people going to um Stop and Shop anyway if you add on people going to the dollar store anyway so you look at these numbers and they seem like an extreme difference but it's really not accurate because um I can there still there's nothing saying the proposed residential plus the existing retail stores yes it there is the study addresses that last condition of of how the driveways will be operate and it is in apples to apples comparing in comparison as to the additional traffic that would enter and exit the center whether it was 100,000 foot of retail versus 200 residential units and 200 residential units will generate substantially less traffic than a retail use on this site yeah but they'll also generate retail also because this is not going to be just a residential site it will still be residential and Retail correct and that retail will remain the retail numbers yeah the retail numbers that remain are not reflected in traffic for your report they're reflected as existing so they're reflected based on the counts we did at the driveway uh so they're they're they're they're there period but your 65 number is only for the residential correct actually what we're going to see because there's still going to be people going into the other stores correct so this is that's what I'm saying it's not really accurately comparing one scenario to the other because your your residential scenario is leaving out the fact that the retail is still going to gain traffic so so the compar comparison then would be adding in the 300 cars that are already coming into the site to the Kmart or the additional traffic that I show would be associated with the commercial compared to the the 65 Cars Plus the 300 cars so it's still Apples to Apples it's the same comparison the Delta is the the the the either either you're generating uh for 100,000 foot of retail additional on the site or 200 residential units it's it's the same comparison whether or not you add in the 300 cars that are coming to the site already uh is IMM material they're coming to the site they're baked into the study they're analyzed at the driveways the analysis reflects that traffic that is entering an so now you're saying that your 69 does not just include your 65 cars down during rush hour traffic don't only um are not just the apartment complex of all these people only 65 are going to be leaving but it now also includes people that are going retail shopping in the morning also no okay so that's what I mean like shouldn't if you're comparing one scenario to the another shouldn't that be realistic scenario of exactly what that's going to be it's going to be a residential apartment complex with retail customers as well corre should show both of those numbers under those numbers are in the study they're in the analysis I'm looking at you just said 65 is not is not ref 65 is what will be generated by so so let's go for instance if you if if the 65 trips is what would be generated by the residential exiting the shopping center to day in the morning uh is or with or or when uh McDonald's is occupied go to that there is uh 60 70 80 90 about 170 Vehicles exiting the site in the morning today so if you take the 65 and add it to the 70 I'm sorry where's that number on your I'm looking at the trip generation it's on figure five figure five is is the projected traffic that that exit the site today so there is traffic that's already accounted for and is reflected on the figures in the appendix to the report so there's over 170 Vehicles leaving this site or would be leaving the site when McDonald's is uh operating uh in the morning okay and then stop and shop and all the other places Stop and Shop it's all at it reflects Stop and Shop everything everything that's on that site plus the McDonald's what they're leaving the morning and then the 65 ads to that alternatively instead of the 65 it would be the it would be the projection of uh of 70 associated with a retail use on the site and the 65 also includes um consideration of larger vehicles that might cause more traffic for instance if they're going to be if they're going to I'm sorry could I finish my question um if they're going to be students living there children of all ages they're going to all go to different schools so they're going to need all different buses um you know that type of thing you know the different locations some kids might go to private school some high school students might drive to high school so that's taken under consideration that 65 number all the buses and everything it's inclusive of all vehicles Associated customary and Associated to a residential development yes okay um and my other question is this area you have earmarked for events there I'm s you're saying that these events will be open to the public um was traffic from that considered in this report also because I'm sure that if there's an event area there's going to and they're going to be throwing different things there there's going to be a you know an amount of traffic from that as well you know it's it's as discussed by the architect it's program space uh it's typically support people that are already here or coming here it's it's not a generator it's not a daily generator uh this is a small space so I don't expect it to be anything that would cause it any kind of unique traffic but it's certainly not generating traffic every day uh and they'd be you know hopefully if there is some sort of uh event it's something that could attract life to this Center I guess I guess it's difficult because in the beginning we started off and we were told that this is a retail desert and now we're showing 9,000 trips to Kmart today and and 69 coming out of an 400 um minimum adult apartment unit with buses and everything I just you know it just it's a total contradiction that a retail desert would be um it just seems like the numbers on the side of or scoot on both sides that's that's what it appears so just to understand the comp the purpose of the comparative analysis regardless of the fact that we are struggling as a retail Center and trying to get it reoccupied which would be the ultimate desire of my client the property is zoned it is zon ZB GB so from a traffic standpoint for consideration of the zoning board that has to weigh the positive and negatives they've got to consider what the existing zoning permits in terms of intensities and uses and traffic Generations uh which is permitted as of right to be generated for instance all of that traffic is permitted to be generated and impact the roads uh as of right and the comparative analysis we're providing is that the alternative that we're coming to this board and requesting an approval of uh doesn't intensify uh and doesn't fall outside the parameters of what the GB Zone already allows and in fact based on my testimony and projections and and review by the board's professionals is providing for a less intense at least from a traffic standpoint uh generation from the site and that's that's the comparative analysis you can get into all sorts of hypotheticals as to uh you know well you're not successful Kmart's been closed for 2018 it doesn't it doesn't obviate the comparison as to what the GB Zone allows uh in perpetuity or until the town changes the zoning uh versus what we're suggesting as an alternative use on this site which we believe has benefits to it both from a reduction in traffic generation as well as maintaining the activity on the rest of the center so the the intent of this whole application at the end of the day is keep a vibrant Center uh and property uh on in the township I think a lot of your estimates are based on hypotheticals I think simply the fact that you took two June dates to do an assessment when recers is out out of session is not anything that's actually based on Grounded numbers um and we are trying to keep a Vibrant Community so I think that's why we're asking the questions that we're asking thank you anyone else if I could just say one thing um we keep referring to that 64 trips a lot in in for one hour just contextually that's on average one car a minute that that's that's a lot of cars that's correct you know and if you look at the the generation of a retail it's a lot more car oh no I understand it's just the the audience questioning that it is a lot of cause yes it's it's an active it's an active site there's no doubt we're regenerating traffic on this site yeah so so so I have a question looking at your table one uh we weekday morning peak hour enter 20 when McDonald's opens up you may have 20 cars every 10 minutes going in for for a quick breakfast order I mean that that doesn't McDonald that's just the re that's just that's just the residential McDonald's will probably generate about 96 vehicles but but I mean the the whole the whole Center is commercial and and residential correct and McDonald's be much more of that entering correct and and that's and that is reflected in the traffic study hey we still have uh question okay uh yes um I had some questions Bob regarding uh pedestrian traffic okay since we're on the topic of traffic uh I'm trying to probe here with my questioning what is the impact of the addition of uh pedestrian traffic from 200 apartments and I heard the phrase children of all ages being involved so my question is first of all internally within bucker Plaza complex what safety precautions will be put into place to deter kids from running around the uh lot okay from crossing the um entryway from um uh JFK Boulevard in EAS Avenue there are no speed bumps there are no sectioning how will we deal with um the new influx of pedestrian traffic within Rucker's Plaza is was that part of the traffic study uh in addition to vehicle traffic Mr chairman I I'm just going to make the observation that as with any residential development whether it's here at reor Plaza or somewhere else in the municipality there's very little either a developer or the board can do to prevent children from playing in the street or in an apartment complex playing in the parking lot this witness's testimony is about vehicular traffic about the changes in vehicular traffic we've already had testimony from Mr Turner about The Pedestrian uh site improvements site modifications and so on two basis I'm not sure this is an appropriate question well you want to reiterate what you said about the sidewalks the network yeah as as I tested ified before uh you know Mr attorney did discuss this at length and the internal circulation has been substantially enhanced with all appropriate uh sidewalk connectivity so and so forth and that provides the safe environment the monitoring of children I mean depending on the age that's a parental responsibility uh that that exists to to to the to the east of us right in the residential Community it exists across the street uh quite frankly in 28 years of doing this I've never seen us develop a project where we have people running all over the place uh and parking lots yes people walk in parking lots uh and uh and residential communities multif family buildings are surrounded by parking lots throughout the country but this is a um site that was once um retail which is now proposed to be residential and that is the difference and that hence my questioning what is going to be done by way of safety precautions to account for the fickle human nature of uh uh running before traffic there's nothing to deter uh uh uh children of all ages from uh traversing this lot anyway they please parents you have a question I mean do you it's I I get what you're saying I understand but we can only go so far uh in terms of how we're I mean there's a parental responsibility involved from the people who may live there and I don't know if we've ever even gotten to the point here where we have any real specific testimony on what numbers of children are even projected to be there you know I've heard someone say 500 I've had people say all these dozens of children running around maybe we need some some testimony on the numbers of of kids but as a town I don't know how we can do any more to protect I don't know what else we can do then what we already do we have sidewalks we have crosswalks we have stop lights we have traffic enforcement and again we're supposed to have parents we're supposed to exactly Bob that's right but that doesn't always happen but we can't legislate that Mr chairman I think the issue here is this was actually testified to at some length when Mr Turner the site engineer testified he went through the site plan he went through all the internal sidewalk connections he went through the crosswalks internal to the site there are sidewalks along the sites JFK Frontage along the sidewalks Eastern Avenue Frontage there there are crosswalks across those entrances there's now a sidewalk it's part of the McDonald's application leading up from Easton Avenue into the site and each of those internal intersections uh on this plan have um you know there's sidewalks and crosswalks across each of those driveways and Mr Turner testified to that and I believe there was also based on a question I forget if it came from a member of the public or me or the board there was also a question about whether there was going to be a side rock extending to the bank uh and I believe they testified to making some changes to the site plan I think to address that okay then Mar I'm just saying the issue has been addressed and and at the I think two meetings ago we talked about it at good length yeah I don't think we can I don't know what else we can do to address it okay uh you may want to a question uh will the demographics of the proposed uh complex be included in some kind of a study or be made available so we understand what we're dealing with ex we we're going to get the same uh studies that we get when we get traffic reports uh projections based on different databases we don't know who's going to be in there really until they're there okay but shair could we request a community impact statement that would to some extent explain the demographic well we have other Witnesses coming but I think it would be just sheer speculation for us to prepare a report saying this is the demographic of who's going to live there just like what traffic we don't know well that's not true that's very different respectfully it's very different I mean there's an established system of data that's gathered from around the country based on real world examp examples who is going to walk in the front door to a leasing Center and to give you a report on that demographic you don't believe your professional planner could put together a community impact statement that identified how many school age children well we have somebody who's going to provide testimony but I mean that's different than I mean I want it to be clear what do we mean by demographics if the question is is how many kids will be here there'll be testimony that you'll probably not agree with but we'll provide it anyway I'm expecting five maybe that's the time to ask your question again okay that's fair enough I'd like to Pivot Beyond Muer's Plaza and the potential for um uh pedestrian traffic and I will include Jay Walkers among them to try to Traverse easn Avenue without the benefit of uh clicking on the traffic weight button or using the uh crosswalks now north of the proposed complex is the Grove and East and North apartment complexes running perpendicular to them both are heightened guard rails that in effect prevent or I shouldn't say totally prevent but they deter uh jwalkers from going over uh the most deadliest uh Highway in Somerset County there are no such heightened guard rail s running perpendicular to Rucker's Plaza so I guess my question would be would that be considered a safety precaution that could take place it could be but we don't have an authority to do anything you need to go to Somerset County and we may make a recommendation whatever but that's Somerset County then right now they've got their uh fabulous million dollar study that's going to take 10 years to tell us what can be built 10 years after that so I'm being a little factious but that is a county issue exactly and one of the biggest fixes for eastn Avenue that's been proposed over the last 20 years is to put those dividers all the way from New Brunswick to to Cedar Grove Lane and every time you talk about that people come out and scream bloody murder exactly my point it's out of our hands we can't do anything about it and it's still an added safety risk when it comes to pedestrian traffic it is but I agree with you but that's going to have to be a risk that's that's that's uh considered by the the people that if this is approved considered by the people that move in there it's not something we can legislate well I I would hope the zoning board would also consider this major safety risk as well not just the people who are moving in it is we do consider it but as we both just mentioned our hands are pretty much tied with East Avenue well just so everybody's aware every everybody's too aware that's thank you thank you those are my questions anybody else wish to ask a question I think at this point uh this will be the the last one for this evening any other ones we carry over okay so Katherine sporttek six Larson Road Somerset um your name Katherine sporttek I said that first okay so I want to ask are we going to redo the traffic study no but you mentioned it was done in June and it does not consider reders University traffic are so clearly you're not aware of how large redgar is how large is redgar how many students in New Brunswick only I'm not asking the whole state just new brunsw the the the traffic study is representative of traffic flows yes there is some changes but it doesn't change the relative impact of this project and those findings doesn't doesn't change the comparative analysis it doesn't change the fact that moving to a residential development is less impactful on the roads all of that dispositive information is irregardless of what's Happening uh on in the surrounding areas there are 50,000 students in New Brunswick over 17,000 comm. you have to ask questions don't argue are you aware that 177,000 students over 177,000 students commute just to New Brunswick alone so that is a huge impact on traffic are you aware of that maybe we could move on from ruers we we're all excuse me we're all aware of ruers all 177,000 students don't use eastn Avenue they go all over the place in different directions we know there's a problem we know that eastn Avenue is rated as the most dangerous Street in Somerset County we know there are numerous studies being done to see what can be done if let's see if we can move beyond that it's been brought up okay so can I appeal to you to ask for a second traffic study since it's not representative of the traffic because I representations been made before other people have said that you're right it my commute which is significant I'm sorry it's significant and as someone who lives here that's massive it's not someone who casually Drives By in off hours okay so let's see other questions because I have a ton uh you were not aware of the $1 million study we know that already were you aware of what Franklin town were you keeping up to date on Franklin Township's announcements on eastn Avenue since you have a project you know you have a best interest I'm not sure that was part of his charge in developing a traffic study for this okay well project so I'm not sure that's an appropriate question for this witness Mr chairman announcement from July 26th what are we talking about uh so this came out from the Franklin reporter and Advocate and I will read it to you verbatim Friday July 26 2024 the Franklin Township Police began and coordinating traffic enforcement details they are focusing on high crash areas within Franklin Township and they are beginning today on East Avenue so the number one road for high traffic area but we already know that it's all news well I know you know that but unfortunately our traffic expert seems he doing we all recognized that East Avenue is a particular problem okay one we have at the moment very little control over okay so you said you were they're Counting Cars correct we collect we collect data yes okay so while you were there did you observe cars trying to make leftand turns out of rutr Plaza um as they're trying to make their left hand turns out or and which is a legal turn by the way someone coming at them illegally going through the no enter to also go through into redis Plaza so it actually has do not enter signs but yet cars run through that direction and go through illegally through the one way did you see that I didn't personally observe that no and I don't think I see that pretty much once a week okay so now that you know that what will you do to try to improve traffic since people drive the wrong way through that ENT as we indicated we're going to pull some crash analysis and see if that's a problem okay what so your numbers from the people that won't be leaving the apartment complex I'm assuming they're working from home so what number or percentage did you use for your work from home staff that's not correct as I indicated there's a there's an EB and flow of traffic traffic occurs over time our our traffic projections are based upon the typical conditions of a residential Community uh flowing in fact it's based upon preo so we're probably a little bit High because covid has Rost traffic generation particularly particularly on Mondays and Fridays as we're all aware but not all week not all week mon the new Peaks are Tuesday Wednesday Thursday uh did your review look into road rage no I've I've never looked in road rage in 28 years of my career really so you're not aware of the road rage on East Avenue where guns were it's not an engineering issue no it does happen okay good to know um let's see okay so you talked about having enough parking spaces um so what happens if there aren't enough parking spaces because we be enough parking spaces you have enough parking space so there you are a you probably don't know this because you again you drive past but there's a street called bab use the mic a little more Bayberry Drive it's in Somerset it's off of new brunic road which a lot of people live off of and when they built Bayberry Drive they built with an approved set of parking spots but unfortunately it's not enough so they line new brunck road with their parking kind of creates a little chaos so my question is are you going to be lining E Avenue or JFK no we will have sufficient parking I can't speak to what another developer may have gotten a variance for or what ordinances affected that but the parking standards we are using are Statewide they are conservative they're known to be conservative and they are appropriate for the site in fact we're enhanced at this site because when we Peak at night we have the benefit if there was ever an overflow of all of the re the Thousand spaces that exist on this site there's no restriction of somebody going into the commercial parking lot so this site it's one of the benefits of a a mixed use development has the ability to share the entire parking lot Mr chairman I would just appreciate if we can keep the questions to facts that are in the record uh we can talk about other developments and what happened at other developments and why something happened that those are not facts that are in front of this board there's no witness here who's testified to those facts and so it's all speculation and I would ask that we just keep it to the facts of this application that's correct please do that okay well then I'm appealing to the board can you please ask for a new traffic study during ruers while it's in session that we have an accurate true Count and not be left with devastating gridlock because as this traffic expert mentioned he doesn't recommend putting a traffic light just just a second you're you're throwing these things out like they're fact going to happen who said there's going to be devastating grid loock okay so I will tell you why because if you don't put a traffic light coming out of the the parking lot onto JFK what's going to happen is you're going to have more accidents people now come into close calls there and it's have you been listening that's under consideration and being studied here's here's here Mr chair I'm just going to interject here is if if we have a witness who wants to be sworn as an expert we could take all that information in but we're now getting into just rank speculation about what's going to happen What might happen you can't just throw these things out of pull these things out of thin air no but all right well my last comment please reconsider a second traffic study during rers in session being that it's 17,000 students and I can tell you my commute doubles it doubles thank you anybody else okay then we'll close to the public I think that will be we did I did but it's a momentary laps in the memory yeah you get when you're my age she is last all right and because we're not we were going to move to another witness but I don't know if that's uh I don't know if you have one and I don't know if that's wise before 10:00 Mr chairman my experience has been we get through about one witness a meeting so we brought one witness and let's look for a date and do you know are you able to project who the witness first one will be well I can tell you that Mr Panky will be back because I assume there'll be additional questions so he'll be the first right okay and then we will have Chris Auto that would be Chris Auto from the auto valuation group who's going to provide testimony about the use the economics about the demographics a whole host of issues related uh to what some of the board members had asked for uh you may recall he's testified in front of the board before and other applications I wondered why You' use that name and we had no idea who it was but he's testified here before yes members of the public You may wish to stay for a few more minutes because we'll announce the next meeting he's going to be here for more public public questions and then you the subject of the next witness was already announced if everybody was and we may and we may also try depending on how the night goes to have Mr minnow provide his response our response to the recommendations from the historic preservation board be good too I'm sorry is he a planner oh witness Mr minow is an architect no no I understand that no our planner is not for the next meeting our planner is probably for the meeting after that and the planner is Paul Phillips but he will not be at the next meeting in my notes I have a auto evaluation who's Auto auto valuation will talk about the report on the uh potential occupancy of the building uh the economics uh talk about the market for the retail that has not materialized uh leading the applicant to making this application thank you you're welcome okay so uh next meeting is I'm sorry next meeting is yeah I John and I already discussed that earlier today so we're going to be moving um carrying this application to September 19th I'm going to ask you now because it wasn't something we discussed did you want that one also to start at 6:30 or is 7:30 agreeable to you how the rest if you feel about it I missed my 5:00 drink but you know it'll be all right any objections to 6:30 he 6:30 is that okay with you that's perfectly fine okay all right so then we'll be carrying 11 property zba 24001 to 6:30 at September on September 19th here at 475 deont Lane it'll be reflected on the website as the uh summary of action is updated there uh John there is a matter that we talked about it might the extension oh I'm sorry no well you're going to send me an extension but I did yeah but I'm going to send you another one now because we need more time yeah so we do have another applicant uh I did get a chance to discuss it with Mark it does seem to be a small applicant so just like we had uh somebody come in before you today we may have but as I stated to you it was penciled in so I don't know whether it's a real thing you know really definitely coming but I can let you know when we get closer that's fine I mean the more time we have the more we can get through but I understand you've got other applications as well okay and then board members uh again it'll be at 6:30 and I'll send out my reminders as well because this is a Hot Topic if you will I'll make sure I ask I'm sorry we need a motion for that we need a motion to carry it to the next public meeting then 630 yeah so Joel do you want to have a seat because the meeting's not over we need make that motion carry walking out the door carrying this application to next uh meeting I move that we carry this application to the next meeting subject to having received an extension of time from the applicant at 6:30 at 6:30 I'll second that all in favor I so just to clarify I did send you a letter extending it to September 30 you did so we will extend it yeah so you're already extended good yeah okay I move that rejourn second second second meeting and journ