I got two resols I'm out right well e e e okay can you hear me good evening and welcome to the planning and zoning board meeting um of Wednesday April 24th 2024 um pursuant to the open public meetings law this is to notice to State for the record that adequate notice of this meeting has been provided to the public by public publication in the Union County Hawk um on December 21st 2023 and by passing on the burrow posting on the burrow website and filing of said notice in the office of M ipal clerk the zoom Access Link for viewing purposes is posted on the burough website this is a regular meeting of the board and at this time I'm going to ask for a moment of silence um for our active duty P military personnel and also a flag salute thank you than I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the rep for it stands one nation God indivisible Liberty andice for Thank You Adele roll please mayor blumenstock here Mr capoano here councilwoman salmon here chair greet here miss vagio here Mr nearad Mr Barkin Mr mccor here miss biano here miss hay here and Mr buers is excused okay um if everyone has had an opportunity to uh review the minutes do I hear an adoption of a motion to adopt the minutes of March 27th 2024 I'll make that motion chair second all those in favor I opposed hearing none motion carries thank you um okay we have two resolutions one for case pb2 24-0 2 that's 410 Oak Street um and uh we have just received the uh the resolution so at this time we'll provide U maybe a five minute review of both uh resolution uh for the 410 Oak Street and for 2 North Avenue and uh let it be known that um we have our Our member here Bill neat who just arrived no that's okay I have um the uh DET I have Bill do you want hard copies of your resolution I didn't see any and the 8 Ines that's that's the one that bill you got cop resolution yes Bill did you have a chance to read them I don't know okay is that a sneeze or a qu oh okay okay if anyone has uh an opportunity uh to everybody had has had an opportunity to review the uh the resolutions do I hear a motion just uh sorry chair I just wanted to um let Miss hey Mr nearon Mr Kappa Bianca know if you would like to talk I would recommend using that mic we were having problems with those they sound like they're on but they weren't they weren't going now so just in case if you want to we we kept that on the table might just kick it over and bring it on the table yeah yeah we just kept it on the table and then whoever wanted yeah for something we couldn't figure it out so we'll have to have someone look at it okay sorry chair I didn't mean to interrupt I just forgot Mr chairman um is this on I don't think so turn it on Hello hello yep that's okay all right um Mr chairman um the only things I was concerned about with this resolution which one are we doing uh LAX me first I thought was the other one well no it's the other one 410 oak oak I'll make a can I make a I will make I will second that okay um all those in favor we should prob roll call uh mayor blumenstock I councilwoman salmon I uh chair greet yes Miss vagio yes Mr capobianco hi Mr nearad hi Miss Bianco hi Mr Barkin and Mr McCormick I and now Bill did you have a did you want to raise an issue on on the yes I'm sorry um I just want to you know make certain of a wording so what I'm looking at is in the laxi one letter f um what is written is uh any respect the applicant shall fail to comply the time frames applicant shout immediately I I I I feel as if I'm I'm seeing more and more where we're getting burned by uh you know immediately or shortly or you know um uh don I don't know and and Mr chairman I I don't know what the proper words are at this moment but it's like immediately is one of those words like temporary you know I mean can we put some kind of time frame on there the answer is Bill yes of course we could have um I don't know that we did when the you don't think that we did I I think I was working off the um minutes but I don't think that there would be a problem if you memorialized it and you put in say immediately in a no event um longer than 30 days like that would be I would appreciate that I don't know what the rest of the board thinks but I would app I don't think you're gonna get pushed back from applicant on that so are you suggesting bill that we insert in the resolution um in paragraph at excuse me in paragraph at shall immediately comma and within 30 days comma notify the board or you want to lose Tak like 30 days of what you know it's like immediately is okay from when um so the time frame I mean Bill here's the let's do the best that sounds fine do the best I mean here's the thing Bill I know I know the thing no you don't no you don't know what I'm gonna say it's on North Avenue everybody passes by all the time if that construction isn't going on I'm confident that somebody on this board is GNA say something this is not on some side street and we also have we do have in paragraph G the applicant should shall provide um quarterly status reports to the board and planner thank you that's the word you propos so it's G to be immediately comma and within 30 days come than you okay with that wa within with non-compliance but if you want to say something else shall immediately comma and within 30 days of such non-compliance comma how's that without understanding do I hear a motion um to accept the minutes no adopt the resolution mrol I understand Mr near D's question correctly but if we go back to page three it says they will you know do all what he's asking in 90 days so why are we doing this back to 30 days it's not just 90 days it's each each step after 30 days not each those those okay okay what it really boils down to is when they get to co or TCO when is phase two triggered that's what it really boils that I'll make a motion so hold on hold on before you make that motion Don what do you can you explain what you mean by phase two how long will it take well the the commencement of phase two uh RI according to what I understood it was they have to start phase one within 90 days of today then when they get a CO or a TCO on phase one that starts an 18mon clock for when they have to start work on on phase two okay I believe that's what the board decid yes okay thank you so I have a motion so far um has amended um I'll make okay do I hear a second roll call or no chair greet yes Miss vagio yes Mr koban hi Mr nstead hi Miss biano hi Mr Barkin and Mr McCormack yes so the eyes have it over the yes is [Laughter] for okay uh with that we can go forward with uh discussion items and uh it's basically a review of the draft development um assistance package uh that um that uh Kathy bashio had uh had done put a lot of effort and work into and handed out a copy to everyone at the last meeting so hopefully everyone has uh taken taken a look at it reviewed it and uh we'll take some uh Dialogue on on what is needed or if it's satisfactory as is um um it wasn't only me um you know it was uh Steve GRE Steve Baran and uh Mr uh nearad um assisted in this endeavor which took months and months and months um so like it's I don't I don't think it's perfect that's the reason why everybody's going to look at it um I don't know if like like I've read this thing so many times that there might be a mistake that I just didn't catch because like when you look at something all the time things could slip through but you know we try to make it so the applicant knows what he has to submit and then uh we know what has been submitted which with with each um application and more importantly if what specific waivers um you know are being requested um if any um I think that like I think it will help us and and and will help the applicant um like if if somebody here doesn't think that it will please speak up I you I'm asking um if there's anything that we need to change I did did receive an email from uh from uh Steve barin um first thing this morning with with with a number of items um um do you want to reiterate your email I mean tell tell the entire board you have to speak into the mic so everybody can hear you see and well I'll a ton of these things applications that is in my career um kind of my overview of of a good application and the information it should provide to make life to cover what the client's needs are and the requests and to make life easier frankly for the town for the for the reviewers for the consultants and ultimately for the board um I feel an application should after name address and ser number so to speak describe a number of things about what's proposed first describe what's proposed list the documents that you filed in support of the application list the sections from which relief is needed and what kind of relief and then present the arguments in support of what you're asking for you know on a practical level as a lawyer representing applicants the more information I I felt that I put in applications the shorter the reports would be because you'd have fewer questions legitimate questions of course you know from the Consultants Victor um and his team and uh it kind of hit me as I was looking at this in preparation for the meeting that we have a a lot of application forms and they don't use the same format and they take a lot of space explaining the notice requir and so what I suggested to the committee this morning was take out all the discussion of the notice requirement and just have one extra page in the in the package which explains the notice requirement because not entirely but by and large they're the same no matter what the applic nature of the application is when do you have to notify the County planning board when do you have to notify do when do you have to notify the adjoining T how how do you get that list because here you know we go to our clerk um and applicants are entitled to rely on the information that they get as long as they provide the right lot and block to search event so my suggestion to the committee was every application formed should list should provide room for the things that I just mentioned three or four things see so as board members just talking about ourselves reading these we get the complete picture now um we have different application forms for different type of relief and that's that's not really common but I think you know I I went back back and forth a little bit on on on this with Kathy maybe you take the master application I call it the subdivision application or the site plan application because you don't always have the subdivision but if you didn't have a site plan you only other reason it would come to us is if we're functioning as a zoning board for a you know a setback for a single family house or one or two family where there's no site plan and um put checkboxes in in the upper left as to what's attached so that if it's a c plan application there's also a variance application attached that might be an easier way to to do what I'm trying to accomplish and putting everything in one form but I'm used to doing the one form thing that's what most towns do um you know we get applications here and there is no writer a lot of the time the law no what I didn't hear it's an it's an attachment describing what the proposal is oh yeah a writer and uh some of the fors ask for something like that but they don't all do that so this is an opportunity to just make it make it uniform make it complete everybody will be helped by it Steve I could if I could just chime in on what Steve said there I was thinking about this yesterday because I was doing an application for Clark Yesterday on behalf of an applicant and it was a simple porch that is going to create a front yard setback that they're going to get it's there's nothing to it but whenever I'm representing an applicant even if the form doesn't create it it's the same thing Steve's talking about I always submit a statement of principal points of the application which is going to be not on one of these forms it's on a piece of paper where I write what I want why I want it and the important points that are in support of it and Steve's make a good point I I don't usually put there and these are the documents are relying on but I think that's a good idea too and so many of the application forms that I see as an applicant don't call for that and you get these forms as a practitioner and ours are no worse than anybody else's they all stink okay they don't have the right amount of space that you need to write you end up having to handwrite it all in nowadays this stuff should all be on a PDF that the applicant can type in on their computer the information because that's what everybody wants to do and then we would get something in a format that would be nice yeah we're saying same yeah we're saying no I'm I'm echoing what Steve says I think he's th% right on on some of the forums it does say attach additional sheets or or or you know something to that effect um but you know it's interesting when somebody like Steve halil comes in if you ever know there's always that extra piece of paper that says principal points of this application and I can tell you when I'm looking at an application as counsel to the board in those rare cases when I look at it that's the first thing I go to because that tells me what's this all about and what are the arguments they're going to rely upon sense um with regards to the uh notice part that you mentioned first [Music] um we can make that part of form one and nothing thereafter um because everybody has to do uh form one okay so if we put that notice thing because I see there's there's that notice on form um um five I just happened to open it up to form five and I mean the uh public uh uh hearing notification part that Parts in several different forms could be a used variance could be this could be that if if we want to take it out of the separate forms or separate um separate type of uh variants are being sought we could put it under form one because everybody has to do form one so which is form one I'm looking at form one is page page 11 yeah that's the main one oh okay oh application yes yeah that's the main one that has the site data and everything um then if we if we just do it there I think Bill uh uh when we were meeting on this you you mention that too but I just didn't know at the time how to how to not not have it it um in there somewhere but if if everybody thinks just Happ it in one place and if everybody submits form one because form one is required if we put it at the end of form one then every then it should be fine I I would agree with that as long as we cross reference on each of those forms because as as Steve and Don are saying you know not every application requires the notice correct as long as we cross reference on those forms where notice is required to go to form one yes so everybody everybody has to file form one no matter what else because that's that's why it was difficult to take it out because it was in some and not in others and yeah so before we remove it out of those other forms we'll make sure we put in that notice notice is required c p c form 01 and that way it's referenced and then we take it out then we go on to the next one and I say we as Steve said you know you've been doing the labor it's still we've all we've all been meeting and going over everything and making decisions but you've been doing the labor so and I made decisions oh and um uh you know as always we do that yeah so every if everybody's doing form one and like I'm on page three it says application application represents a request that take out represents page three page three of the application requests the following so where it says subdivision you check off minor or you check off preliminary which is the same as major why do you need a separate application form for sub and you just keep going and you wind up what do you need I feel as if we're rehashing what we did our meeting yes where were you Steve you were there I understand but you forms better than I do and I can focus on that there I don't think there's any way to shorten this no no no without no don't shorten for one but do you need forms right what are you adding those I don't want want to subtract I don't want to add yeah hard to believe Don I know um Believe It or Not these forms are based on the city of Elizabeth's forms 40 years ago okay from how long ago 40 and a number of other towns use them also 40 years ago like you're saying Z all right and um at that point in time okay we had separate separate forms for each request um you know in the city planfield our application was threee payers so one of the reasons that I was encouraging us to get together to go through this is you know we have 40 pages um but we don't need an applicant to submit 40 pages you know what one of the points of this whole thing was indicate what you're doing but then you submit the actual application form and on that form you explain what you're doing right that's quote unquote short and form of the writer you know so why do you have a separate form well because that's where the notice requirements were listed and and that's where you would actually explain what your subdivision was form 01 just says it's a subdivision okay but then you'd explain I'm taking you know four lots and doing this and you know the whole bit that that's why we had a separate form but when I my initial re reaction was if you're checking off preliminary subdivision preliminary site plan and then then that's page three then form one then page four uh bulk variances and also expansion of a non-conforming you check those things why do you need a subdivision form to explain what you're doing you guys are talking about wrer in legal terms I'm just saying that form is where you would explain what you're doing but if you couldn't you attach the rider this one well if now you want to attach a rider can you do away with some of this perhaps well can I ask then on number 17 on um well it's page 14 page five of page five of form one page 14 of the package yeah it says explain in detail the nature of the application and the changes to be made attach Pages as needed right let's see that's that that's all great okay okay and and that's really as a practitioner that's what I want to be doing because I'm really G to sit there and I'm GNA write a document that's going to be a page that looks like that that I'm going to put in English right what I want to do and that is a million times better than trying to scribble it into one of these so basically we're talking about a c letter is what you and that's my I I think I'm sort of what you're saying then why do we all these separate forms if we're going to there's a number 1 on this first form that says explain it and put a writer in if you ask if you ask me if you ask me if I was doing it from scratch yeah what I would want to see is the I would have the first document say identify names addresses phone numbers professionals involved in this application that would be the first page second page would be what am I asking for use variance bul variance subdivision prelimary final site plan that would be the second the third page would be describe and what I what Steve calls the writer what I call the statement of principal points but it's the same thing describe what you want to do and then after those first three pages then maybe there's a form for because you got to like list all your setback and your bulk requirements and all that maybe you have one of those that you'd be using for a subdivision maybe you'd have a different one you'd be using for a bulk variance or something like that if I was doing it so then you would have these separate applications right but but I be clear that they don't have to attach the mor okay if you're doing a site plan put in form a yes if you're doing a bulk variance now attach Form B Okay and like now that's that's not the way this is formatted right not here to reinvent the wheel it's not my project I think the sub the subcommittee did a really nice job with this yeah I think it kind of is yeah what I could do istics I think what what we could do is since since there's a checklist um in the back uh for each form okay form one has a checklist checklist one so forth and so on I could put at the end of every form um um a statement that just basically says attach checklist one with form one you would still need to attach a a form regarding to notice but yes yeah and if they um if they're doing a b um if they're just doing a variance a simple variance I don't know what what form number it is um then they would only have to submit form one with checklist one form two it's not form too but using an example with with checklist too that's it and well and the notice that they have to do you know by law um that's why we they're separated but maybe I maybe it has to be spelled out better that when submitting just submit the forms that are necessary but see I can tell you just as an applicant this is something that always bothers me I get this application package and then like one of the things in it is the notice I can't do the notice because I have I'm not on the agenda yet I don't know when I'm going to be putting it in I may or may not have my 200 foot list yet that's not really when I need to notice for and I can tell you that to lay people who get this they get that and they hit a stop when they're doing it with that notice thing because then the first thing is what do I do with this and they don't know what to fill in and maybe they're calling a d okay but what they really need is they need something that tells them you don't fill this out now you need something that tells you here's a form you're going to use used in the future after you are given a date or or the notice should I think that the notice should be actually taken out of the package and a separate thing and then when they're scheduled I could include that with scheduling letter exactly and that's great and and I can say we are not different than most towns most towns have it in here where it is and I didn't know that this was an Elizabeth form from 40 years ago billt but that and it's being used number of towns but that makes perfect sense because all these towns have variations of this that probably over the last 40 years they've been copying parts of that form and the form never makes sense it creates work and it's not good for anybody so if we're actually trying to start this over and like we've done a lot of good work here I can see it putting notice stuff in when somebody's doing their application is ass backwards it never should have been done that way and it doesn't help anybody and and and I just when I'm when I'm doing one I just look at it like Crump I throw in a ball and I don't hand it in because I know better and I know that after my application is in I'm going to talk to the board secretary or the board attorney or whoever it is and I'll sayh am I on for and they'll tell me and then I usually don't even bother to use their form of notice I do my own now the late people aren't going to do that Steve but you use your own notice right we don't use these forms because they're also not in a good format for us to send to the newspaper because the newspaper wants it as a Word document anyway so if we're really trying to make it easy for the people those are the things I would do and I think that's easier for the lay person doing it and it's definitely better for the practitioner doing it I always put to be Supply um just for the record I would like to say I totally agree with Don if I was a person filing this application and this was brought to me I'd probably just roll it up in the ball and say I'm done I'm out it's not worth it so you're right Don as to those that put this together and some of us agreed as we went along yeah I can understand it but now when it comes to a point that we're really seeing it uh I don't think this is the right way to go about this so don again I'm glad you bring that up because as an attorney and I read whereabouts whereabouts I go what the hell is whereabouts mean after a while so thank you for clarifying that so so the actual notice of public hearing which is a which is in in the back page uh 34 of 40 that's the one you're talking about that notice of public hearing 34 35 can be taken out because affid David you don't need to give them right away 11 form 11 form 12 well form 12 is the affidavit give giving giving the a giving them the affidavit when they do when they submit their application is probably counterproductive because I guarantee you people sit there and then they're staring they're staring it and then they're like what do I know what do I do so and it's not the time for it so both of them are out 11 and 12 I think on the initial application giving them to people is counterproductive all right then we'll take them out I don't have a problem with that because don't all the people have to talk to you anyway about when the scheduling is yes and then it's very easy for you to sit there and say you need to give notice here's a notice form right and and you know attorneys obviously know the procedure and do their own form but this is you know the residents that I just have to tell them you know just hold that put that aside for now do you help them with the appid DAT I I mean I walk them through walk what what they're required to provide that's right Del that justes no they have they create I tell them that you either have to create like an Excel spreadsheet they have have to have the signature of the person and it has to be dated of the date that it was hand delivered by property owner who's listed and I I encourage people well right just just as a note you're probably aware you can't you're not allowed to place something in someone's mailbox yeah well I tell them that they need a signature and it has to be the homeowner and I encourage them that certified is the safer way to go it Le people just do certified um well sure for for us as attorneys that's all we do but you'd be surprised can we can we um agree then those two forms are out we'll do that separate um on the website um since it's being re I think it's being looked at now anyway um we can make that separate those two forms let's validate which forms we're talking about now uh form 11 and form 12 just make sure that I'm correct right form 11 the form notice of public hearing and affida proof proof of service and then on form one you can just remove then 15 and 16 out of the oh out of the form and just say if you want to say anything that it will be required later but I don't know how you word it but you don't or you can just remove it all together what 15 15's the whole formless so I'm not falling oh sorry no no on page 13 on page 13 form One Number 15 and 16 yeah so confusing h yes that correct because that's where people would look at this and go I have to do this now okay maybe you could just change that Kathy to oh will be provided upon scheduling I I'll just put direct notice of hearing to be published in the official newspaper um will be supplied at a later date to be supplied at later date to yeah when sched so they know to talk to it though to be supplied to be provided on schedu schedu upon schedule upon scheduling for both of them no uh no the other that's form one 15 16 16 the Affidavit of proof service don't even tell them about 16 okay eliminate 16 for now will have the form and when they get scheduled will let up they can be given the notice form and the proof of service form okay all right that's good well I think I think at this point in time because we have made some significant changes to the to the program or to the application process I think what we should do is take that back and correct me if I'm wrong Cathy take that back we'll re redo well that's this is gonna take like 10 minutes for me to do okay um um it's just a matter of insert it's like I use a couple different pieces of software you know right so what about my point can we can we put this so that it's a fillable PDF or is that a problem for us to do because that I personally have the full version on the like a um um um uh that I purchased because because there are somee there are some towns now that let you do it that way there's still a lot that don't oh you can make it fill but then you have to print it out which is fun there there are a few forms on our website that are fillable but yes you still have to print it out afterwards so we have to work to make it that kind of form but I mean you know we have some already that exist because um the original the originals are in either a word or um Excel and then I upload it into the PDF you know with the pages and everything else so making it fillable shouldn't be a problem that's a lot of work but I I I think that after we're done if I could work with somebody from Burl Hall to to um because ultimately it's going to be their their form right you know it's not going to be my form it's it's it's GNA be their form they're going to have all the originals right because I know I know the burough clerk has already made the the Sha Tre uh request form is fillable so I mean I know they can certainly do it work work with you and get that done and as you said Kachi has been working with Vic to redo the planning page itself so we yeah everything is kind of organized um and we still need to do work on it but um if doing it all at once and to make it fillable great um is there anything else that's major the only thing I want to say is I hope everybody was able to take a good look at the uh flowchart Steve had meant made um the recommendation that Cranford had a very good one Kathy was able to um uh I'm G to say create her own um I know that's not from scratch but you know you did a lot yeah um oh this was I to make the boxes and everything yeah well but the flowchart the flowchart is very good and so if everybody can you know take some moments to look at that because I think that's a a vast improvement from what we had before and um Steve Mark Barkin mentioned that the blue doesn't show up and he is correct um so I'll make that a different color I'll make it I'll make it um green light green so the so the black shows up if that's okay with everybody sounds like a plan all right does anybody else have any any um questions or or any changes that you'd like to see I would just like to ask from a resident's perspective um why do we require them to identify if they're asking for a C1 or C2 variance is that required that they identify that in the application as opposed to just the C variant I'm pretty sure I always did that yeah but that's the differ between as they says from a resident yes like like a resident's not going to know you know an attorney's goingon to know D2 D4 D5 resident not gonna know that well then you know we well for no no no but I'm saying either one C or D they're not gonna know somebody's gonna explain it to them that's always is that on page um four that what you're talking about uh yes I mean page 13 13 yes maybe Kathy you want to get rid of like those conflicting page like it says page but then like maybe we can just remove don't and when they ask you tell them just check false you know I say I'm not permitted to give legal advice you tell them to just check F but you know we did have that issue with a resident who got hug up on that so is that recently recently recently well then can we put a I mean it's just to see variance right and why don't we just eliminate the number can we yes so we'll just put C variance C variance C non-use variance period where is this now we don't put semic non-used variant hardship and bulk variances see uh and non-us variance flexible benefits versus detriment that's a good point I think it's a very good point I'm sure Adele is being asked questions from a legal perspective that we're not hearing each time we sit up here so I think it's is there anything else Adell I think that's it okay thank you anybody here on this side you did anybody any have here okay Stephanie have PDF one fing would be great so you are taking it back right yes um yes but I just wanted to discuss it more more because I don't want to just have a couple changes and then come back next month and then have a couple more changes you know not which which there probably will be but if if I can get a get the majority of them and then have just uh minor changes and then you know what's next month next month is May we have an application next month there's nothing currently in the office okay um it's because they can't figure out the form all right so there you go so what I could do is is if is if is if we do not have a meeting scheduled for May if we don't have a meeting um ch you'll let me know right um I can have this done by May 24th or 23rd or 22nd said you can have by 10 minutes yeah yeah but not with these other other changes um I'll I'll finish it and I'll send it to Adele and Adele will send it out to everybody I can't send it out to everybody but Adele is secretary C in one where arital it's there uh page 15 on the bottom lists of maps reports and other materials accompanying the application attach additional Pages as required for complete listing proba you know I I think I tried but this is a um it it was it was like pulling te sometimes because this was like originally done with a real old version of Word and I have a brand new version of Word so it's like originally done on a computer can't a laptop Philips what's it a Phillips word processor yeah probably eight so much at a time yeah so yeah yeah so so sometimes I if you see something that doesn't look right like with a line I just got frustrated and I said you know what you know what I'm not going to even try anymore um but um I I just want to thank everybody for for oh for looking at it and reading it and giving your suggestions um like it makes me feel better you know well thank you Kathy I do like that I don't I don't I don't I don't like when people are like silent and like you did all this work you know everybody did all this work and we just sit there I was like yeah yeah but thank you everybody thank you Kathy um we're reading it so it will be in your um email sometime in May um I don't play golf until the end of May gol that's not true you said you're playing with Saturday yeah Saturday I said gol up here just just what are we doing with a separate application fors I I just opened up to uh 27 application for approval of subdivision and paragraph plan description prepared by dat but like you point saying it's redundant that it was a separate form well that's the reason why like I didn't have a a checklist nine because I got mixed up between nine and 10 they look the same but on the top they were different one was one was you know this like the wording was almost the same so I messed up but then I corrected it um that's it okay so uh so we'll get you'll go back to uh to a little additional work that you're going to yeah this isn't this isn't this isn't and then we'll we'll bring it up again and we'll bring it up again and and if we don't meet in May then we'll meet in June um is okay very good um we have a couple more discussion items here um one is the affordable housing regulations new legislation fourth round um everybody got issued the copy of it I don't know that there's a whole lot that anybody's going to do about this one or have comments about it or if you do um I don't know what you what we can do about it from a standpoint of the state goes the term you're looking for is comply comply thank you Mr chairman the one thing I'd recommend is you know we did just adopt the open Recreation open space plan in that plan there are a number of recommendations for properties to be placed under Rossy and if you look at page three uh from what Bob Renard sent over you have uh it talks about uh the regional perspective and for for I'm reading in the second paragraph page three municipalities which are not qualified Urban Aid municipalities which we are um I'm sorry which we are not okay we're not the municipality's perspective fair share a regional need would be calculated by using the following factors you get to the third one the first two I don't understand the third one say the municipality's land capacity Factor would be determined and um I think that's where the rosi properties fit in and so since we do indeed B can't be developed no oh well they can if they're Parks because but they can't if they're on the rosi that's what I yeah thought that's what I yeah you did but you said parks and then like it just clicked that if it wasn't on the Rock whatever property run and so um we made the recommendation certain property be placed under I would recommend and Mr chairman I don't know how you want to do this because this is something obviously has to go to council councilors to make the decision can file an file with the Department of Environmental Protection that these properties be placed under RC but that would reduce the quote developable land yeah and I don't think we we placed that we recommended anything that oh nothing nothing but you know the bottom line is we don't have land no we don't FL so you know um I think we should advance that soon okay so it's not counted as developable land so I mean you know Marie asked me today she said well what do we have you know like if you go you bend the corner at New Street you know the property and the right it's recommended be onasi well we're not going to develop that so no you know the the Myrtle Avenue um which continues through the Recreation Complex well we need to vacate that street and we need to put it on rosi so it's just a lot of you know stuff that um uh would reduce our quote developable land and I think we should and most of these are small pieces of property that could not be developed technically anyway don't say could not I stand correct you're right we doing this a long time you're right I I don't know if anybody read it was just interesting the other day um it was a uh article about um the solution for uh affordable housing in New Jersey could perhaps come from this one small two mile municipality in Bergen County outside of the George Washington Bridge and so I read it and it's it's Palisades Park Palisades Park you can convert uh a one family to a two family as of right really no board approval I'm not advocating that I'm not advocating but I'm saying you know it was very interesting to read um so it's like well you can't do that well no maybe maybe you can't do that you know so I'm just saying we gotta let's get it under Ri so there's no doubts and you're right they're all small Parcels but let's do it but Bill you know appropo of that and I read that article as well I mean that goes along the lines with for example what you have out in California with the accessory dwelling units and all that and to the extent that there is um overall pressure to provide more housing that's going to be the direction that things are going to go is to be able to create a second dwelling unit on a lot there's going to be pressure and there is pressure going in that direction so um you know that does militate in favor of what you're suggesting because that is out here yeah so Mr chairman recommend I again I don't know how you want to proceed but uh we had a board once to proceed but I think we should take a good look at the open space let's forward a recommendation to council we can do we can do a comme we could or do it right now do it right now we can make a motion to to submit good point you know do you have a list bur counsel as per the master plan plan with me but all we need to say is as per the master plan you know I'll make that motion if if people are open to it I don't know um do you want that Mr chairman articulate your motion yeah I'm articulating make a motion make a motion that the uh planning board um uh forwards the recommendation of the recreation and open space plan um to convert properties uh onto the uh State Recreation and open space inventory uh to council for their consideration and submission to uh New Jersey Department Environmental Protection okay I'll second that local mayor blumenstock I mean it makes no sense to recommend it to yourself yeah Mr Capo biano hi um councilman salmon I abstained chair greet yes Miss vagio yes Mr nstead yes Mr McCormick sure I mean guess Miss biano yes uh Mr Barkin did and Miss hay I get everyone thank you Mr is that can okay um with that can I just bring up something sure absolutely Kathy vasio would like to an item last night's barl council meeting bill you mentioned about the uh you spoke after you know um with regards to the sign ordinance that they're looking at from the uh small business um I would like since since you did bring it up here at the last meeting you know um the council person mention it to you when you brought it to us I would like to meet if it's okay with the chair the chair and I and and Bill or or whoever would like to meet with the uh with those members of the small business um um I don't know the official I forgot the official name I apologize um to see what they they were looking at um to recommend because um like I said at the last meeting here um I've been on this board for 25 30 years I don't I don't remember um Han and off and and I can't recall an application just for a sign variants um and and it's just just like I'd like to know where they're coming from if it's okay with the chair yeah F first I you know I and it's good that we get to talk I had a I I also listened to that meeting and I know that you had made reference bill that you had written the ordinance how many years ago 20 35 okay so maybe you can give us a little background on on what what you did at that time Mr chairman you only remember what at 35 years ago come on for breakfast for breakfast today I had how you didn't have breakfast um 35 years ago uh what we were looking at actually was um uh if I remember correctly um it it was it was a size and number reduction because the only thing you can uh write an ordinance about regarding signs you can't touch content so it's only location number and size there might be one other thing but it's location number and size uh Steve I don't know if you remember anything else but that's it one other thing you can do whether it's illuminated oh right but I'm saying the sign itself there's lots of other things you know that beyond that but those are the key things location size a number and what's gone on since then is obviously we've we've progressed in terms of signs there are so many different types of signs there are signs that exist today that aren't even mentioned in the ordinance um it certainly needs to be updated and I've reached out and I advised Council McCarney last night that the person who's leading this from the small business group they they haven't even reached out to me to even get together so um while they keep bringing it up they haven't reached out to to get together but yes absolutely I I would like to that's all we can't regulate content um but I just wanted to see what they're see what they're my gut my gut is size of sign size of the size of the sign was related to the downtown um Frontage of each of the businesses the average downtown Frontage is 20 ft so we multiply it by two foot sign 40 square feet which which is in compliance correct that that's what I believe that's what the code says 40 sare feet yeah 40 so I'm sure the issue is when you get out to North and South Avenues where we made the signs bigger then you allowed a um Standalone freestanding sign uh I'm sure they want to make those signs bigger and I'd like to make them consistent in in in you know construction or in in may you have any insight into any of this to be honest uh when this was discussed I had another meeting so um I really don't know what the details are that they want to change but it was discussed that they do want to so then then it would be advantageous for us to to meet yes okay then what we'll do is yeah um why why don't we do that we'll set up we'll set up a meeting so you rather than waiting for them do you want me to contact them yeah go ahead and we'll we'll we'll organize it it'll be myself Kathy and you and Bill you know Mar Maryanne yeah yeah I didn't say that no I saying that's an addition no those those are the three main parameters people want to regulate many times what they say what the sign says and that's very diff oh yeah but you can certainly you can certainly Maran you're one of the four well of the four of us you're the only one who's got a full-time job right now if I'm not mistaken um so what what are the hours that it'll be at night because if the small business okay okay very good okay that's fine all right bill you want to reach out okay good thank you thank you chairman um okay I have another item possible ordinance changes pursuant to the 2023 master plan reexamination Adele have we receiv received anything from Victor with regard to a proposal no could you reach out to him or we need a resolution I mean we need a request from here I think we yeah I think we should have a request from us uh I'll make that motion to ask for a uh proposal from from uh Harbor Consultants so so you're seeking a a proposal just from him I mean just from a harbor consultants and I'll second that those changes that were recommended in the master plan that affected the uh land use code right and you're asking that to them in their capacity as burrow plan burrow planner we're not doing something that's going to require an RFP or anything no and we could do that anyway because you know it's under a certain amount of money and you don't know you're making a request to Victor Wood well okay so I'll second that and uh we'll have a roll call Mayor blumenstock hi Mr Capo biano hi councilwoman salmon hi chair greet yes Miss vagio yes Mr nstead Mr Barkin Mr McCormick yes Miss biano yes and Miss hang okay um and last up to this point um we don't have Victor here or representative from Harbor Consultants um but mayor do you have any any insight into paperboard updates um the they paperboard met with Vic um a couple weeks ago and the way they left it was that they were going to be getting uh some new plans over to him and we have not seen them yet I have sent out correspondents asking where they are and still have not heard so I will continue to send out the correspondents and okay try and get them over yeah and I'll I'll contact uh Harbor Consultants as well and Victor and uh see where they stand yeah I I did with I talked with Vick as well and we're both kind of waiting so we'll see Mr chairman to add to that now do we have the affordable housing information you know I it's even more well I was under the impression that they really wanted to move on this at this point but that so I'm not sure what's taking a little bit of time at this point but yeah so even more reason to encourage them because can't move forward not knowing what they're doing correct okay uh Bill did you have something that you wanted to bring up not again well yeah I'm kidding you know what it is um I conversed a little bit today with the chair Vice chair and um the mayor um I don't think it was this past week I think it was the last meeting I could be wrong maybe it was the other night um mayor and Council um adopted or or adopted a resolution I guess agreeing to issue What's called the certificate of completion for remela verella one one um and I was disturbed by that because um I felt that this board had basically said hey you know we're not ready for that so I'm I'm looking at the mayor and I discussed it with her yeah you know I really was why is the council doing that so um there are I know there are minor issues but I've always from day one I I felt the biggest issue and the biggest disagreement we've had with them is the parking and what I mean by that is I have felt that we said and they agreed um that they could have a um I'm sorry let me get my thoughts the parking space everybody in the uh every tenant uh can have one parking space and while rmo could certainly charge for that space that charge was in the lease and the reason we did that was so that no one could opt out no one could not no one could opt out of of uh having a parking space and then Park on Willow Myrtle or you know wherever they wanted to now we've gone back and forth with uh Mr uh minks on that and I did find the uh resolution tonight uh we've spoken about this wording before um and I still am of the opinion that it would and I'll read the wording in a second but I'm still of the opinion that it's within our right to say to verela you can charge no one's arguing you can't charge but you cannot give the person the option to opt out and so what we had said at the meetings was that that charge for the parking space was to be included in the lease the wording of the resolution is as follows and it's number 198 tenant leases will include a parking space this in the testimony part of the resolution bill this is in yeah that's where the problem is isn't that the question yeah that's where the problem that's where the problem lies I got if it's 198 I know damn well it's it's not condition 198 it's 198 of testimony correct and if they testify to this they have to live by it my only question was you're reading from the testimony yeah I didn't get chance but yeah I believe it's 198 so yes it's it's testimony this was testimony from that's probably whereas Mr minks yes Mr Ms whereas in addition to prior testimony of all Witnesses and various stipulations and representations offered by Mr minks on behalf of applicant throughout the four nights of hearings Mr minks made the following further stipulations and representations at the conclusion of the hearing on February 21 2018 so it starts at 180 when you get to 198 um tenant leases will include a parking space and here's the wording applicant intends to charge an additional fee to tenants for same it's no problem with him charging a fee but what we said is it's in the lease by him having it offering it to tenants separately the person can say I don't want it and then all kinds of games start um they can say I don't want it in park elsewhere they can say I don't want it because maybe I don't have a car and they'll they'll rent it to somebody else within the unit you know within the within the verm and I I I think that we need we need and we we should and we need to be clear with verela that a tenant does not have the option to opt out of a parking space that they're they're with the lease here comes a parking space and you can't say no I don't want it I don't want to pay for it I'm going to park elsewhere but but but what if the tenant doesn't have a car so um and we spoke a little bit about this today um the reason that we did do this that Redevelopment attorney recommended going um along and putting the co up for a resolution uh with the council was that other than the signage for the parking garage um everything for verela one had been taken care of there's some things we talked about on vermel too that definitely still need to to happen um so the signage we did put into the resolution even though it's in the site plan as well for the parking garage uh Val that and the valet that that was the other thing that our attorney recommended that we just put into the resolution anyway even though they're still on you know the hook for it with the site plan um so we did do that and the signage for the garage by the way is being ordered I did see proof of that I wanted to make sure of that and some other council members I know did email them and asked for the proof of that um and so there's temporary signage up but there's better signage coming so we we my recollection and I I told Bill is that when we discussed this last time um here at the planning board that the majority felt that it wasn't something we could push on I thought we kind of did a straw straw type of situation is that that's why I didn't that's why you know it wasn't a part of my thought process when and I did I just had I just had a discussion with with Steve Baran um a little bit earlier uh tonight um and he felt the same way that it's not an enforce ible item that we could do go forward with at this point in time it's not a and correct me if I'm wrong St but I'm so that was when you mentioned it I thought it had we had discussed it and put it to bed previously so and I agree with the mayor on every aspect I remember the discussion what I didn't remember and I still don't remember was actually having some kind of Vote or having some kind of majority say we're not going to go after them I I if Ur I do vaguely remember that it was a collective it was a collective decision full board agrees were not that's the end of my story my my viewpoint on it is we as a a town did what we needed to do in terms of parking on the surrounding streets we did change the parking permit situation on the surrounding streets so that they cannot park anybody from verela cannot park on on those streets it's a 24-hour on the surrounding area so anything that you know it's done is to the verela residents and if you know Russo is getting complaints from his residents that's when he might make a decision to change something but I don't know what to me I don't think that's something so so I guess the burough responded properly in the sense of um trying to resolve issues the residents brought up but it's a shame that we had to do that and I I think that while we responded favorably and we responded to What the residents complained uh what residents of Willow Myrtle througho complained about yeah reason we had to do that is because of Russo's actions and charging that extra fee and allowing someone to opt out if it's water over the dam it's water over to Dam I want to make sure going forward that we don't do that you know before we have half the town under per parking well then if and when we get paper board um this is going possibly be changes anyway so we're have to have a full-blown application um why did we decide to not move forward with that why did we decide to just let it go majority of the board was here right because it wasn't no a specific stipulate it wasn't wasn't part of a resolution that that was part of testimony the wording could have been put put it this way it was not an Express condition of the resolution yeah couldn't look at plant Seven Trees you there wasn't anything that said specifically you have to include the cost of this parking space in your lease therefore not allowing anyone to opt out and legally from a standpoint from what I gather we we could not impose that and state that that you have to make that part of your lease it would have to be part of a resolution I'd rather not make those comments on the record what we legally can do thank you but that's why it it's it's we're in a gray area and so when you're in a gray area do you go forward or not go forward you're only going to go forward if you think you can win and here's debate like we don't even try we don't try like it impacted so many people it's a lot of money to it's a lot of money to do that it's taxpayers dollars and we don't even have try and have a conversation we' had that conversation we've had many conversations there's been a long this has beened and rediscussed and re rediscussed and this is not the first time and bill has been articulate and forceful about this repeatedly the it is clear that that there would be push back and that it would require litigation to vindicate the position that they're required to separately charge excuse me that they're required to include the charge for parking in the lease it appears that Russo would be prepared to litigate that issue and well I don't know there was a final quote unquote decision as I recall it the consensus of the board was that given that it was not an explicit condition in the resolution memorializing approval that that was not an issue that the board was likely to want to litigate can I say something I I just don't see how if a tenant doesn't have a car how you can force them to pay for a parking spot well there's a way to do it's just simply included this is your rent and it's included that's all there is okay that that's but it's AAR is one spot I don't if you need it or not it's included in the right for examp they have golf simulat how what we're doing decisions Mak and throwing this town under the bus excuse me wait a second these people these people for developers how make sure that we have the Burrow's best interest we certainly did okay perhaps you know hey I I read this it's as much all of our faults are you know because I read and I'm not even sure it's a fault I mean but for for not well but you know what it's great it's great even I have to admit it's great and you know are you going to spend taxpayers dollars to advance a you know that that you could potentially lose that's why I say keep in mind for next time experience understanding what the nuances are and we need to make sure that try not to let something like this happen so to clarify we're not throwing anyone under the bus am I correct on that well you made a reference yeah that I would like that taken taken or reth thought okay thank you yeah thank you chairman understood what every conversation that either the council and mayor have or this board has We Are All One Collective organization and yeah do we do we not necessarily do everything to 100% as in hindsight looking back over our shoulders and say oh we should have done that sure but any any decision you make you can always take a look at it again and say oh I should have done something differently but that doesn't mean anybody's getting thrown under the bus or intentionally anything is being done so I would like just a little more um cohesiveness and a little more insight from a standpoint of our board members here that we take that into consideration when we start for lack of a better word attacking our own our own organization here we chairman we we sat here for five meetings on on verela one five full meetings over a couple months we went over everything um we did our best and you know you I was in it from the very start in 2007 2008 all right I remember that piece of crap that was across the street all right the building's falling down all right and to you know to say that to to to say that the Burrow's best interest hey I'm a taxpayer I'm here 44 years I do everything like any decision I make it is in the Burrow's best best in like in my opinion all right in my personal opinion it's in the Burrow's best interest um I don't have anything you know but to you know we sat here for five meetings for vermel one and an additional how many meetings for uh vermella too all right and we did go through everything there was tons of testimony so we did in my opinion our due diligence and I don't know who was here uh for those five meetings I know I was and I was Steve was bill was I know bill was um I don't think anybody else was so like all three of us well off one two three um you know there were different members I mean In fairness and and if to the extent that somebody is dissatisfied with the specificity of the conditions on that resolution I was here with Kathy Steve Bill and whoever else was on the board at that time I certainly wrote at least the first draft of that resolution I know there were a number of edits so I'll stand next to the chairman and the other people were on the board at that time we did our best on that resolution and if there is a little bit of gray on that condition I'm not running away from that Ken but I will will tell you uh everybody did their best and and and and if that we did our best on too wasn't thing I was gon to say so but if that provision and you know the impact on parking uh of that provision and whether or not that was motivating some members of or some me some residents of vermel at the park on the street and could it have been written better possibly I also say this it would not solve the problem of car number two for a couple of residents at verella because even if you had the solution that Bill's talking about that they have to charge extra for to park a car uh excuse me you can't charge extra for a parking space that doesn't solve the problem of husband and wife with car number two and I don't think there's been any quantitative study as to how many of the cars that are creating the parking lot on these streets are car number two of a couple at vermella hindsight's 5050 you know what I mean 2020 my hearing's Notting off way I I really but the way I read it it covers it just understand it's it's a matter of weighing it do we think we would want to spend taxpayer dollars and it not work out in our favor that's that's the hard part to always do with this I mean I think everybody would go okay let's do it in in a perfect world where we know so that's I don't read it the way it is but the way I read it it seems like that probably allate some things that these people would agree to do it the way it says in that statement and it would cut down on a lot of things but to take the attitude that they take is we're not doing nothing for you with this they' made they've made in my opinion a calculated determination as to whether they would Prevail and they made an economic decision that from their perspective it would be worth incurring whatever legal fees they would incur to try to validate their position I get it then all they had to do is add 100 bucks a month for the rental because these people seem to be willing to pay it if they add 100 bucks if they add 100 bucks in the rental can it'll go into the landlord's pocket okay I I think same subject same subject but different different situation um we have this that same situation with other residents in this town who are in apartment complexes who don't use the parking signed to them and rent their garages out to contractors electricians why you look at me who's a contractor you're a contractor yeah but you're not you're not one of those Rich you're not one of the people doing that but I know that there and I'm not not implying that in any way shape or form um just that um the the there if we want to look at it vermel is not going to be the problem because they don't have garages that you could rent out that doesn't exist but there are other apartment complexes here in town where the renters uh don't use the garages and rent them out to others and then they park in the street that's who we should look up that's where we should into if we wanted to okay I think I think we've I think we've covered the discussion we're going one more go ahead Maran about theary sign see at the beginning you know when they were first open but large I brought that up a couple meetings ago about those two banners I'll talk I'll ask them if there's take it down a year yeah it's it's time May bring it up Steve it's a star part of the community I shouldn't say but it's an outstanding use thing yeah to do with our moving here I agree it's it's something to be proud of something to be proud of the same way in another time the point was top it was built development that this board maybe is not responsible for but has fostered and has overseen within the Redevelopment process uh up and down that railroad corer from wherever it goes from on the East out or whatever they are standout communities well and that's what I I wanted to say before was that you know sometimes this gets into when we have a disc question about the parking something we disagree with them about um and it becomes we just let the developer do whatever they want I just I I completely disagree because I wasn't on the planning board uh at the time but I know what went on during those meetings and how lengthy and to be honest how much Garwood is known for taking the developer to task after after Vera um because I've seen other planning boards where the developers have come before them and you're lucky if you have a whole meeting about it it they go through very quickly I think this board really took I and I think he would agree really took cruso to task about everything so things happen like we said if if there's the gray area on that and then we we learn from it but um overall the specificity of everything was amazing so yeah one yeah scale project onil you name come back was changing things and press on that and Don asked him as his La well two things do you agree to remove the stones and replace him with grass and you agree to remove the side he said asked to removeing a stone he said no removeing a sign he hasn't removed a stone yet but it's agreed to do it will be Che and we decided to make yeah you guys are tough up here well I think yeah and I think um I know vanela has been is is well known and Garwood is well known were having a really high-end developer um from a standpoint of of pela um in this area so uh I think I think all in all um our our burrow and our and Garwood has done an outstanding job with uh with the development end of it um and that I'll I'll just I'll just end it there but um but I think can can I make a comment please sure so we're going back to the developer of Russo and um I came in late into situation being elected a councilman and has only been here for a few meetings at that time as Russo was getting ready to start and listening to the people that used to sit up here and some of them still do what they advocated for what they fought for from Russo to what type of facade that was going to be there what type of window how the roof line was going to be displayed so on and so forth have to give Garwood planning board a big thumbs up for what they did for us we could have had vinyl sighing blown off in the last storm if it was up to them but they advocated for more and better so I give the planning board a big shout out on the other side yes we can all sit up here and be disappointed whether we agree disagree whether we want to agree or not agree what we're trying to talk about tonight the parking it's a terrible thing I think it's something we can learn from and move forward but we can't go back and beat the dead horse but again what this planning board did before us being present was off the chart and I give you all a thumbs up and I thank you for that Thank you Rich that's it that's all I want to say thank you rich thank you um I just I just want to make a comment I I think tonight was an exceptionally good night to have uh because was only us and we aired a lot of a lot of information and I think that's beneficial from a standpoint of the whole board um just to just to get some of the talking to comments out and on the floor and some of the things that we can we you know we made motions to go forward with and I think this was really a beneficial night even though we did not have an applicant I think this was this was really really good for us for our board to get together and do it can I make a motion certainly can wait I think you have Don no no motion with Jord you have Don's in oh you pay the bills have you ever seen me stop emotion no no we don't okay uh so we have a motion to adjourn no you have his invoice you have his invoice Don's invoice I have Don's invoice but I signed it already I did but I shall read it just to make sure ah very good do I hear a second no second Donald Oh I thought he I thought he second okay all those in favor I opposed hearing none motion carries we're good yes you may all those in favor I here thank you May 22nd May 22nd May 22nd is the next meeting but we right now have we right now have nothing on right no we have nothing on right now so that baby well you know we don't we don't have to do this often that often you know right now we didn't have an application tonight so I got no resolution to do so you want to come eatting oh look at this yeah there you go there you go learn and Bill don't forget about this little business thing no no may you want me to PW this down right on here I take this sure