##VIDEO ID:WOMjknQV_z8## all right it is now 5:30 I will call the select board meeting to order on September 16th at 5:30 if you can please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge of aliance to the FL of the United States of America for it stands one nation IND do right I will now call the hearing to order the select board will hold a public hearing on Monday September 16th 2024 at 5:30 p.m. at 10B West State Street in the senior center large meeting room relative to the following amending the general bylaws of the Town by replacing existing chapter 14 K9 control with new chapter 14 Animal Control bylaw copies of full text of set amendments are available from the select board's office Town Annex and on the town's website at www.g gy- ma.gov all right so next we will read the written legal ad from the paper did you want to do that paper you want you town of branby legal notice the select board will hold a public hearing on Monday September 16th 2024 at 5:30 p.m. at 10B West State Street in the senior center large meeting room relative to the following amending the general bylaws of the Town by replacing existing K chapter 14 K9 control with new chapter 14 Animal Control bylaw copies of full text and set amendments are available from the select board's office Town Annex and on the town website www.g gy- mass.gov dated 8:30 and 96 2024 all right do we have anyone here to uh any proponents to speak about the animal control bylaw having none um do we have any opponents to speak I have a question sure absolutely um so I just can you just say your name sorry Kim Goldsmith 239 Taylor Street I'm also animal control in town um not as animal control but just as a resident of gry I noticed that the um hobby kennel part was removed from the original bylaws and I just don't see where um because that was for people that were I'm a breeder also a laborator breeder so that was for people that did like hobby breeding in their home which is essentially what I do um and I see that there's nothing on the new bylaw for that there's a commercial breeder kennel but not everybody qualifies for that um like you don't need State Licensing if you have under four females that are used for breeding so I'm just not sure where we would put people that weren't a commercial breeder anymore are you looking at section 4 a um the definitions section two down under pennel for the new one okay thank you sorry no that's okay cuz I was looking at the old one trying to compare them yeah so section two definitions the kennel one we have personal commercial Veterinary uh domestic and Commercial correct the old one was a section four kenel license yeah that's what I was looking at yeah okay so we had listed one was HBY kennel okay one which made me for breeding dogs for show or sport which sells dogs from less than 4 lit per year um and I do know that the state guidelines usually for having a commercial penel is that you have to have more than four females for breeding in order to have to go through the state for licensing and inspections and things like that so under section two of the new animal control bylaw you would like to see I would like the hobby breeding to stay okay the hobby pennel I do know some other one which is maintained for breeding dogs for show or sport which sells dogs from less than four lit per year y or even if the lawyer for the town wanted to put in whatever you know restrictions there are through the state like I said I'm pretty sure it's you have to have it more than four breeding females and then you have to get a commercial breeding license for the state of Massachusetts so for a commercial it's more than four and then for uh hobby kennel would be four or less correct four or less dogs or four or less females breeding females just female something I think they you know they would have to be a breeding Cali you know not if someone had eight female puppies that were you know 12 weeks old it wouldn't count I think they have to be a you know breeding age Chris I'm wondering if that would fall underneath 5A for the personal kennel yeah that's why I wasn't sure a group or a collection of five or more dogs kept on single premises for private personal use if they're a private breeder that would be private personal use right no a breeder is different it have to be CU you're you're you have the dogs for the purpose of breeding and selling the lits where this one is just a personal kennel where you have five dogs at home you love dogs you five dogs at home yeah you adopted five dogs from Rescue or something like that you now need a kennel license to have your five dogs at your okay that's what that is where what uh Kim is talking about is it's a personal kennel but yet she wants to be able to breed and sell up to four lits per year per dog right four no just four lit per year yeah I'm saying the state allows you to have four breeding females before you have to go for commercial license well just add in Hobby Kel yeah have its own little piece and speak to what it is that's what we've done with each other a b c d and e actually talks about what kind of kennel it is in the description so say do the same thing for hobby kennel and have it excuse me by adding that then you'll have to amend section three paragraph C regarding inspections well I would but that that's not Optical to it because there's no license required for the hobby kennel yes kenel licens but it says now kenel licens shall be available in two categories hobby kennel and the commercial Kel that's what our current Bible says and what she's saying is hobby for four lit are less a year wasn't included in the new Bible it still requires licensing and inspection am I am I right yes okay I think um what I think what I'm noticing from what you were saying GL is we don't have that on the first page anything about licensing right we just have what the definitions are but then we have to go to the licensing section right well Chris is speaking about C talks about licensing I'm just going back to section three paragraph C if you notice it agrees mins up with the definitions in section two the kind section you go if you go back to the original and section 4 it refers to kennel licences and it two categories are uh one of them is a hobby kennel that's just right so it is needs to be licensed yes what you said but again when you read under the new one section three paragraph C K inspections he has a paragraph for each of the Ken licenses identified under the definitions so have have to add in HBY on there too and right yeah and a description of what the inspection would would be just a question Chris does anyone have more than 10 dogs in town I thought I know one okay I think a lot of the commercial kennels are for um like the dog training I think she might um at least might have one for a commercial I'm not certain but I was just looking at personal but not for breeding I don't think but commercial would be if you had a business and you were doing any sort of boarding and things like that I don't know if they kept their license for where the winery was there was a commercial license there at one point we just didn't know if by putting the Restriction of 10 dogs if we were um going against what people currently have in town I guess so if they have like 10 dogs registered at their house and we say they can't have for a personal kennel they can have up to or from 5 to 10 dogs in a personal kennel is what this says so I just want to make sure that we weren't limiting oh yeah so like my I have a kennel license up to 10 dogs at my house for personal use yeah and I know there are a few people have those there are people like the ls the puppies just include like the that just includes it includes the adult dogs anything that's over four months old or six months old needs to be licensed so anything under that wouldn't count towards the account okay spe speak to is um I know some people in town they they'll take like dogs home or cats home and like in the shelters they like you know take them home for a couple weeks at a time that's not we don't have like that anywhere for people that like do a foster right exactly so if they're the property of like a rescue then that licensing would be under them you know what I mean like if I took a dog home from Rainbow rescue to have it at my house for the weekend it would essentially be their property it's still their dog it's not their dog it's just okay yeah you're just kind of sitting and Tak watching it correct yeah fore for out for number section five number one right Miss on Section Five or section five dangerous talks that's one yeah I got Miss A B it's actually under was a complaint procedure no so sorry it's under section three look at page number number one no fee will be charged for seeing I dog or a hearing dog can this include service dogs because there's many different dogs use for many different uses besides they seeing eye dog or hearing dog for services that looks like it was just taken from the old I was no I know we have a chance to upgrade it just wondering I think definitely changed since then where it came from yeah you can go as further as far as to as as a licensed service dog so someone's not just saying my dog's a service dog yeah to provide a license for what are actually service for nor certificate seeing and or hearing dods are actually in the current one under no I know I'm just asking I think any service right cuz dogs lot different things with proper identification license or certified maybe certified is better better word useing license I know I know there's there's some people that have a actually certified uh medical too medical or most dogs and no instead of saying certified if you said um like registered registered they would register the dog of the state um it looks like it's registered through Ada registry I'm not sure if I don't if you'd want to look into that before you changed it we can it says so from what I'm seeing it says there's no official registry or database for service dogs or emotional support dogs so I don't know how you would want to word it so that I think that's what I'm thinking if we have something that actually shows it's a certified dog that's been trained what has been trained for but if there's no registry for it is that what you're saying well there's no registry for the eye dog or hearing dog yeah right now but there's but I would think there would be paperwork for whoever needed the service saying that they couldn't see or they couldn't hear you know what well I give an example you have a you know you have a and I and I'm use this example because I kind all of a Vietnam vet who has an emotional support dog that's been certified okay so I'm that's kind example I want to use makes sense I mean to that person there's actually a disability so wave any fees for it's a dog certified for some type of and emal support disability or something I mean we can come up with a wording we have come with a wording right now but I think it's something we could no come I would definitely look into it CU I know that it is very easy also to get that sort of certification on dogs to fly and things like that so I just be cautious the only other thing too that I realized as um Animal Control is it says all dogs are to be leashed but we don't say anything about the leash like could a three-year-old hold a dog with a rope and that would be considered a you know I did see when I was looking at other um towns bylaws there are bylaws that specify a little bit more saying that they need to be secured by a leash or a lead no longer than six feet they have to be under the control of a responsible person I don't know if he wanted to be a little more specific about the leash they just talked about under dangerous docks under Section Five sub paragraph n dangerous dogs not just any dog yeah the dog hand walk by a competent adult on an adequate Leal longer than 6 ft in length that's that's a dangerous talkg right they don't identify just for any dog right right I think that could be that would just be the standard but I know they have those retractable leashes that go much longer than six feet yeah so how do you control that because I see people let their dogs out 20 ft from them so well I know that's what I'm saying know they they have them they sell them I guess if it's in there at 6 feet it should be 6 feet if they're they should are they held responsible if they let somebody walk on a you know retractable leash that's 20 ft long and somebody gets bit could we say something like all Don are to be leash and in full control by the owner no because then people say well he's under my control he comes when I call okay yeah he doesn't like the leash right and okay that's where we're problem now about a adequate leash no longer 10 ft because and I say that because we're looking at this one and it's talking about six feet and that's talking about a dangerous dog so we have a dog that's not considered dangerous why we hold them to the same I just don't know so say you have a 10 foot leash and you have two dogs getting into a fight how quickly are you going to be able to intervene at 10 feet versus 6 feet I think is why they were saying six feet well but that refers to so the dogs that that particular number refers to a dangerous dog and then which also says that that's something the select board may put in place for a dangerous dog right so that's if for not a dangerous dog and it also goes back to it's a competent adult and I go back to what Crystal talked about they need to be in control of that dog so it does fall back on the owner as well just because the leash is a little bit longer yeah you know and I for sa reasons and I do back to a point two dogs are on 10 foot and they get a scuffle I think it's a little better off to 6 feet and they get now the person's much closer to that well I'm saying I think the person with the six foot leash would get their dog under control a lot faster I so I didn't see the six feet on our paperwork I was going off of um vure Town's uh animal control they have that they need to be secured by a leash no longer than 6 ft in length and under the control of a responsible person that's where I had seen that one in specific um I'm okay with that I just think that then quick sing a dangerous dog and what's the difference between we have the same exact think for a a regular dog if you will I just think maybe we strike that do yeah number nine really shouldn't be there then a Welling MK or strike the dangerous exceeding 7t so I guess like to Kim's point I think a a distance is needed for the leash we're not out 20 or 30 with those leaves no I agree also agree with the six feet like there's got to be some kind of difference otherwise that one's not needed for the dangerous stock but you want to keep them close if they're dangerous of course so this is this table 6 feet here right about half of it you they figured 6 feet and probably 10 ft down to the the last microphone there you we're P six and six is 12 here so and it I think they do six feet because the average length of a regular dog leash is 6 feet I think that's why they a lot of them say that list I'm fine with that then you take you take number nine out of well I even put that in as a possibility as what could be you know one of the one of the remedies that the select board May impose and it's hard to impos on every dog already you put down limit to 6 ft with any other dogs in the area or something like that I just think of someone that might yeah they two plan Park they're there by themselves no one's around and they have the dog on their track leash and they you know they have out 10 ft versus 6 feet they kind of know running back and forth or something like that but they're on a leash I think we're we're making a big step from no leas law right now to to have a leas law we're going to actually having control over the dog versus I want say not having control but not actually having contact control what I guess would be the better phrase for for the free running dogs that have been around yes do we add some wording to that so that it's I just think it's just been such a long time since they have been updated I think that's why it's just such a huge change I don't think that we've been keeping up with updating this so you get the other towns that besides town that was seven that six well lesie well didn't sound right when I said Welsley Welsley down by Boston um so and then there was another one that had um for the dangerous dog too it was 6 fet I mean it could be an ug ugly argument at that that point any dog can really be dangerous if it chooses to attack you you know well true but hey said I'm not I'm not opposed to 6 Fe I just say if we go to 6 Fe then we need to take number n out of the South Hadley is 12 ft there is a chain or a leash and I don't know how long it's been since theirs was updated either and I'm just checking surrounding towns because if ours is less a lot of people tend to come this way with their dogs because their restrictions aren't as as strict as strict in their own towns I well I I don't know if I agree with that just based on if they're walking a dog maybe not what are we saying about wom inside like the dog parks it's a little different I does say something in here about the dog park that they don't have to be leashed as long as they're fencing in the dog as long as they're in the I people come so we're going to limit it to six feet because we're worried if dogs get into a the scull if you will however we're going to allow going to a dog park with no leash what to me that if if two dogs are walking down the street or in the park and one see another one and I think if the person has them on a leash they're controllable at 8 ft 10 ft still because they have the ability to pull back in the dog where I see that being acceptable the same thought where if you're going to have inside a dog park and they don't have to be on a leash what's where's the safety involved there just where two dogs and get in a scuffle inside the do Park more so with no control I agree with that but it's a it's not a bystandard getting bit or attacked on a trail that they're hiking on it's the owners of the dogs within the park who was to say my dogs not there was someone else's dogs that's SPID and egg wanted to protect my dog you're the owner well we really were visiting that based on the situation we had at D Frame of the walking trails my point that you you you have control of the dog if we're saying the person has leash is in control of the dog why does it matter what the L is up to whatever it is right and I agree there's got to be a limitation because you have to have that yeah but if we're talking about just going back to your example just saying that if we worri about two dogs getting the SCU over the night I don't see that because if we're saying that they're not they don't have to have leash on when they inside the dog park if we're looking at the safety of individuals and I think most people if they have their dog and whatever leas they may have around whether it's 6 feet 8T 10 ft and they're walking by someone they usually tighten it up a little bit if they know the dog is going busted or something like that they they'll pull on a dog they they're going to walk away a little bit further to the other side and again it just goes back to the dog owner being in control of the dog right I mean I can be holding on to a dog the dog sees something takes off some dogs are really strong get it's going to come out of your hand could it I'm just wondering too if you put a length at least somebody could expect how far your dog is going to be away from you true you know if I'm walking and you're walking I'm going to know that your leash can only go so far so I'm going to stay over here with my dog yeah in case the person doesn't gather it up I don't know if just having a certain length to expect would be helpful to all parties involved well I would agree I agree that some Tye of L Le be on there I just think six feet is just kind of short that's all has it always been six feet just that's the average length of a of a regular leash I think my dogs are six feet so yeah well yeah I don't own dogs so but yeah I guess Le is about standard for the do depending where you are there's nobody around someone back a little further and stuff like that again sorry Dave and um where again just from being a dog owner for 30 years if you're walking next to somebody and you know your dog's a little the way it shouldn't be you you talk any dog you tighten up that you know how far that dog can go or you or you move off to the other side and again that's just the owner having control of the dog you know we're what we should be putting all the ownership on the owner of the dog not on the dog but on the owner that I do agree with that 100% And I think to the point that you made earlier about what we're looking at for the instant that happened yeah I think at least would to taken care of that absolutely I think so you well I mean hope hopefully it would have well it would have the dog would hopefully wouldn't be able to do that said there's always that chance of dog been always releasing come out someone hand or the leash whatever snaps or or the collar comes off well I'm thinking too like dogs have more power behind them the more distance they have from you too you know if the leash is longer if they go to run and they have 10 ft to run rather than 6 feet to run you know they're going to be pulling on you a lot more more having right having more of a distance to be able to get away from Nish by the time it straight but I I just keep on going back to the owner having control of the dog I mean that's the most most owners that have dogs they they know what the dog is capable of you know I me that's that's what I go back to just I mean I mean the ultimate the ultimate say it's going to come down to to the voters I mean at the town meeting when they see it but I'm just you know I can see that people raising that issue right now yeah there the length so I agree or disagree I'm just saying that I see that yeah I just didn't know if we should have some sort of guidelines to follow because if you just put a leash I think 12's a little too long um I could go eight or 10 I don't know if we can I know they make leashes like those not the average size but they do make leashes that are a little bit longer they do could go eight or 10 feet on that I think 12's a little much that because you're doubling the distance I I would agree I just and I I agree it needs to be a distance I just think six is too short that's all so do we give it a range say 6 to 10 and cut it off at 10 ft if they make leashes that are up to 10 ft but non- retractable we could just say with an adequate leash no longer than 10 ft so that means they can be anywhere below 10 but they can't be more than 10 so does that eliminate the retractable leashes because those I think I don't think it does because it's if I had my dog at 9 ft or 8 ft it's still okay again the control comes from an individual that yeah shouldn't have it you know have a 20 foot Leaf they shouldn't have the dog out of 20 ft that's that's they're not meeting the requirement of the bylaw and they're they're the person in control and the person responsible we hope right to control of the dog so was it 10 ft I think with an adequate leash no longer than 10 Fe and like for 7 a right all dogs are to be leashed on an adequate leash no than 10t in length I think if you do that then you can leave nine in there yeah because that dangerous dog should definitely be closer and walk by a responsible adult or a competent adult yes and walked by a competent adult well I'm just asking kids like to walk dogs here's the thing but there's a difference between a six-year old and and a 10-year-old or a 5-year-old as soon as you say adult people are think of someone that's 18 years of age as an adult so I think again you go back to the owner I'm the owner of a dog and my dog weighs 80 lbs and let my daughter who was 7 years old watch the dog is that being responsible I don't believe so no cuz you know that dog could drag her drag her him you know so I think that's something we need to look at again goes back to where's responsibility lineing sure my son's 15 and I just started letting him help me walk the dogs because they are strong yeah my male dogs 105 pounds he's going to pull you and the other two can't they can't control the dogs so but you can also have a little that weighs 12 lb right that's really not going to pull anybody that that a 12-year-old can handle with e so I mean that's just the kind of things that you know I kind of want to look at because the dangerous dog definitely has to be a competent adult so I don't think we're questioning that it's just how to how to word it for the do control yeah yeah I think it's just just how to word how to word it again we can look at other cities or towns and see what they have I was going to say I did look it up and um they did have the wording by a person who is in full control of the dog I just don't know if that is going to fly like you were saying Chris and the because we've been having problems before but another town did have that verbage in there so now how do we figure out well I guess like Chris saying then it comes to well he had full control until he didn't so then what well that can be said about anybody I said the dog could you know dog strong enough to pull the leash out of out of your hand you just said you know the dogs are strong that's to say they weren't control it yeah you know or a poar breaks right things things happen things happen any suggestions Kim I how to word it I I like having a competent adult in public I mean your kids can walk their dogs at home I mean we have a house at the cape and my kids don't walk my dogs and I have Labs just because they're they are they're strong dogs and the kids are 10 and 12 but if you know somebody uh something comes out out of a trail and they have a little poodle I can't promise that my big Labs aren't going to drag my kids over there to them and we do have to remember this is just for public because on private that's what I'm saying in private you could do whatever you want it it goes back to the point I'm making you would not do that why because I'm a responsible adult however we have these because not everyone's going to be a responsibility but if they're not we hold them accountable I I don't like to restrict a lot of people because the W up those people who don't WS don't follow where to the people who don't follow the rules and bylaws we hold them accountable and that we have pieces in here that are that'll hold someone accountable do you want to take the word adult out and just call it a competent person owner keeper what is a competent person well you you you're in the law enforcement field what is the competent well that's but I'm saying you have to describe it because and I think I I think we should be okay using a confident person well I I I I think we got to look at I I think we look at the language a little bit to make sure that it's confident for one thing that it depends what you're talking about it says owner keeper on here for private property use owner or keeper the competent owner or keeper you could use someone stronger enough to restra the dog to make sure that like whoever is doing it whatever age they are they can still hold the dog goes back to judgment and like it goes back to holding the actual owner responsible for so if I I'm the owner of the dog and I give it to my 10-year-old son and and you know and the dog weighs 120 lbs I know it's a strong dog well if something happens I'm going to look at the owner of the dog say wait a second you need to look at this do you think that was a broken so because it doesn't matter how much you work things there's always going to be the what if or other things so I mean a 10-year-old or 12-year-old child really isn't an acting adult it would be the parent that is so that's the responsible party in charge so if a child is walking a dog alone I think that that responsible party still needs to be that adult because you shouldn't be letting if if you know your dog is as you say 100 pounds 120 so have a big rottweiler they're pretty strong you know absolutely um y easily drag a child several feet but that competent adult should know that that could happen so I mean I hate to say don't let your kids walk to dogs but if that's the case in a public area then the adult has to be there I would say so how do we right a fine line of work I like I said I think it comes back to you holding owner responsible I mean you know as far you have a 17-year-old person that it's walking a I don't know 20 lb dog or 30 lb I mean this doesn't make why couldn't someone do that after school walked in their dog they 16 17 years old you can tell them they can't walk a dog if that dog weighs you know 20 30 40 50 lbs and a dog is perfectly behaved and well trained and mhm yeah it's kind of a coach 22 on that I think I've got something I kind of with the definition from here all right so um we can say by a confident person who has the ability know and experience to control the dog or to control the animal so they have the ability the knowledge and the experience that's just what it says a confident person should be able to do so if I look up the definition of a confident person actually so a person who has the ability knowledge and experience to fully control the animal than I like and this is actually a dog here so the dog I really like that Crystal just because someone's adult doesn't mean they can control a dog yeah exactly right I do want actually describes the person that should be you did we change the hours do you know for um dogs barking I don't know who made that change not that I agree or disagree with it I just noticed that the hours were changed and I didn't know if that was what what number one 7 B2 the same page just done under public Nuance 7 two it was 10 and 8 now it's 9 and 7 is the noise ordinance 10 yeah well a lot of people go to bed at 9: now too do they get up early cuz they commute to work I I think I think the times are fine if someone dog is barking for five minutes continuously yeah yeah like I said I don't I didn't have an issue with that just noticed it was Chang night I mean I didn't know if it should align with the noise the noise yeah I just didn't know who you know I didn't know who made the change or lot and and we're we're asking for proof too s disturbance sh so Chris looking at number seven the public nuisance it says any dog may be considered a public nuisance if and then I think we mentioned this the last time 7b1 a dog that defecates on public so we're only talking about dogs being a public nuisance here so C we can take out then right CU if we're only talking about a dog being a public nuisance then we don't have to have any personally owned animal there m I think that's what we were confusing ourselves before whether it was a it was talking about other types of animals but we're only talking about dogs in this public nuisance and B1 already says a dog that defecates on public or private property so we can take out any personally owned animal that the whole the whole SE yeah I think that I think it's just repetitive what you take out so if we look here at public newsance as any dog yeah and then if we go to B1 it say a dog that defecates on public or private property okay and then if you go to 7c says any any personally owned animal that Tates well we're only talking about dogs being public nuisance so we don't need any personally own the animal we're only talking about dogs that whole thing can go I think that's what kind of throws me off in this bylaw is sometimes we specifically say dog and then other times we say a domestic animal so do we want to say for number eight unprovoked means that the dog was not hit are we cuz I know this is an animal control bylaw right so we want to accommodate for more than just dogs and I think there was a definition in here Chris where was it where it said the different animals it's under definitions domestic number four domestic animals any dogat well what about my pet pig that's a far animal though right corre no not not when he's a pot belly pig he's inside people do have that or pyg me pig hey you'd be surprised what people have I'm just saying it's just I think it's funny that fret made the list because I don't see too many of those I think number eight actually makes sense then to keep it there because we're saying a public Nuance is any dog I don't really know of anyone that walks a cat at the park or a fet but I guess they could people do walk their ferrets I've seen it so should we CH normally they're draped around their neck but yeah I have seen them walk them I've seen people walk with Fair before at Le yeah me too just not very often yeah at all spe on for well here it goes to your point Crystal number seven yes section c what stated there go to section four part a first section a public nuisance no owner keeper of any dog or owner personal owned animal in town of Grandy so that kind of reflects back to personally owned animal for the defecation one per yeah because it refers to any other personally own so are we only going to call a dog a public nuisance what happens if you have a cat that loves the ches well that's why I said if you go with to section four letter A that that refers to any other personally owned animal that's why kind it goes back to that's why in section seven why see was probably there so we should probably go back to public nuisance and say any domestic animal may be consider considered a public movements if and then we have everything let's do I think it's any it just what it says here any dog or other personal owned animal we Define it as domestic anal on section two though so I'm wondering because you're right we do have to keep C now it's talking about not only dogs right so if someone's riding a horse and it goes live bathroom in someone's yard they have to get off and pick up they' better come back and pick it up that makes a big mess and I guess then it we have to it but we've run into that problem at D Frame Park people will ride their horses through they defecate and then you have you they ride over the ball field say and then the kids go out to play little e games mhm and they have to deal with Horseman on on the field you know it wouldn't be bad if they kept to the the writing Trails or to other areas keep away from other areas that aren't used for other purposes you know that's that's yeah we can we can say no it's not going to happen with horses but it does we do know it happens I've seen it happen horses on the street and it just yeah but the cars usually run it over and it gets smashed in and eventually disappears well not really the cough from the or the vehicles upset done on the side of the car have that happen but I I I think this F feel what to the point and I kind of hate what you're saying well we don't carry like dog bags I also have horses you know like I can't you can't I don't know how you would not like get off your horse no I'm not a shovel and a bucket home you know like no I I agree I'm not disputing it just say well I'm just you know Common Sense would tell you to stay off the ball fields yeah I mean I guess if you had a most something rather the trails there though and then they stay in the horse parel right I know it do Point yeah yeah it happens sure and it's you know it's frustrating to you know if someone's out there walking on the field they step in it so then what if we did parks and private property because I I don't too often you see someone's forse and someone's private property but I'll be honest I'd be a little upset if someone was riding a horse and came on my my lawn and the horse defecated was that different from with a dog you may have to pick it up right away but GE you know you you know your horse did it I mean it's just being respectful to the property owner but I don't think too often like I said too not too often you can see someone riding a horse being on someone else's property per Mission usually public like the that's what it means you're not you're not going to see that too often so I think it's kind of but I would I would hope that we have the same consideration for the property owner that we that we would would we um Glen if we change public nuisance to any personally owned animal may be considered a public nuisance if and keep see because that also accounts for not just the dog defecating but any personally owned animal defecating or we could just change 7b1 to instead of a dog that defecates it can be a person any personally owned animal just bring C up to number one or no CU that was just about dogs never mind we don't want to recreate the whole thing we should just keep C and say personally owned animals then well but then I'm wondering for the domestic do we need that definition and if we're saying any personally owned animals you know just listening to this discussion it seems like parts of this animal control WLW is geared just to dogs and other parts are trying to Encompass domestically owned animals yeah but yet a domestic animal is only a dog cat or fet correct yeah so according to this right according to to the definition sure so do we need to change domestic animal to any personally owned animal because if someone turns around say well you have an animal control and that your horse defecated on my lawn well this doesn't apply because it only applies to dogs cats and birs I guess I'm just looking at and again I think it could just be farfetched but we have an Avenue where the property owner can say wait a second so we just tell me tough luck clean up I have to clean up myself I how's that fair that to property on it where if it's a dog it's something different like I said you know you know it's it's farfetched but again I said I think it get to a point where if we're going you see a lot of people riding their horses along the side of a road okay we're a horse Community MH people are out there riding their their their horses you know but I go to where if it happens in the street well that's a public way the town of gramy is responsible for that but if it's a private property that's something different so it's okay for them to go on the right away of the town along the side of the street in front of your house no I'm just I'm just we're saying right now they can mhm so again are we dealing with animals or are we dealing with dogs cats unfortunately this particular V back and forth I know different section me you're right and that's why I'm asking that's why I'm asking questions cuz I'm going to be getting the calls sorry the proposed right and and that's where I'm at with this now is listening to this discussion should we not just refer to dogs but all animal all domestic animals or this particular bylaw needs to refer to dog cat and fairy only correct instead of saying domestic animals throughout the sections it has to refer to dog cat and ferret well or you can still say domestic animal but own animal I think that's where I'm also getting confused right I think it's going to be very hard to enforce um I hear where you're coming from Glenn but I think it's going to be really hard to enforce um horse poop or horse species because they don't have a way to pick it up um easily they would have to come come back for it and then the horse can go several times along the way I get that understand it but we're talking about but I also we're talking about private property yeah that's what we so I mean someone has impeded someone's private property that's that's I mean that's what I'm saying it's private property to mean it's different sure yeah so do we add so do we keep any domestic animal maybe consider a public nuisance if and then it goes through it and then put like a d on here and add something for horses because I don't think we should get rid of everything here that has already been created because I think it's important to regulate um or to Define what a public nuisance is and since dogs are usually the number one public new right mean out of all the other animals I'm not saying but when again either we go back to domestic animal and describe it as dog cat parrots and leave it at that and take out all the animals if you leave all other animals in there I think you got to kind of look at so what if that that could be possible you create another definition personally own animal any animal that is not a dog cat or ferrets owned by a person firm F Corporation organization because you look at the definition of owner or keeper under section two any person firm Farm Corporation organization so you just created another category personally owned animals domestic animals domestic animals domestic animals so what what whatever was mentioned in there that you created a definition for that and we would have to add the personally owned animals to the owner keeper too so it says owning keeping harboring have an interest in or care cester control water more dogs are domestic animals so we would have to put in there too um or any personally owned animals not just domes or like I said we create this in between six and seven personally owned how they call it personally owned domestic animal was it personally owned animal animal yeah cuz domestic animals already defined right so you create another definition personally owned animal is any any animal outside of a dog cat or fet M that way if you want to walk your pet skunk or you want to walk your pet whatever you know but this is our opportunity we're Chang right Crea a new bylaw so this is the time to to do it it's not an easy task right means they said I'm sure it goes to the town meeting there going to be a lively discussion I would think about it as well I'm sure they will well I think that section five should be um dangerous domestic animals no there's some cats out there are quite pharoh but I think we should incorporate not this dangerous dogs it's D dangerous demestic animals anybody ask them then again creating a v so people have a Remy that if something does happen to something things well this what the Bible says m we don't permit any other dog in town or any other animal in town though just the dogs right so section four says a Prohibition of Permitting a dog or other personally owned animal but we don't permit other animals to it we do not just no okay well where are you down I was just reading on section four just how it says a Prohibition of preventing a dog or other personal owned animal but we only prent dogs no permit or am I reading that wrong when you only have dog licenses right correct right well that would just apply to dogs that's when we we provide license to okay and and only if you look at this is dangerous we go dangerous domestic animal and know a lot of the restrictions apply to a dog however it does take the last section such remedies may include but they're not limited to that leaves it open to the selectboard um to do other things besid it's just listed in 1 through 11 so but is who do it say that talk about silly when you talk about someone's fairy and bites someone well what do he do well don't talk about it in here is a dog well it does say here in the paragraph that the Animal control officer shall submit to this left board a list of recommendations as to how the owner keeper can safely control and we can change the dog to the domestic animal right I'm just thinking anywh you have a dog you change it to domestic domestic animal okay so then that it's behaving not like humans or other domestic animals in danger yeah and then it just gives a list of some of the remedies but it's not limited to these so they microchip other animals they do they do okay and I think that the five of us had a good discussion about something that we thought was pretty well pretty well written you know we get 50 60 people in the same room we have some other discussion as well so I think you know we try to do our best to yeah bring best product if you will forward right so am I going through and changing dog to domestic an throughout this whole I think so because I mean confusing yes yeah so where the do just a domestic animal cuz then they'll be domestic animal and then personally owned animals and it won't are we adding a definition of a personally owned animal too yeah any animal that is that is not a dog cat or feret right is that what we read on any any animal that's not considered domestic animal as we Define it is not considered a domestic animal as defined above but when we're specifically talking about a dog license I think it should just stay dog because we don't have any other licenses here correct but you never know you may add licenses to leave been open at this point it pertains to dog but not to say 10 years down the road they'll change your mind then they have been talking about doing cats at some point oh W okay good luck on that but they have been talking yeah I don't know anybody else that licens anything else other than a dog right so are we personally own animals any animal that is not a domestic animal as defin the bug yeah I think that sounds good is it or has defined in this bi is it above yeah just no I just randomly put that uh we have it as number four so we would put this as number six here oh or actually he'd probably put it as number five so that kennel is below it I actually put actually had section two number three four whatever it is yeah section uh two right after right under domestic animal we should put the personally owned animal it said as defined above was but as defined in section two whatever the number may be clear I guys go go to Town Meeting those guys are the attorney general and right did anybody see anything else Elum out at me um so under Section 3B initial kennel licenses it says all initial kennel licenses other than those for a personal kennel are subject to approval by the Zoning Board of appe s should we add the hobby kennel in there as well since we're keeping the hobby kennel part from the old fos you're on section three section three registration and Licensing Y is it right at letter B see it it says initial kennel licenses all initial kennel licenses other than those for a personal kennel are subject to approval by the zoning board of appeals are we seeing the hobby kenel as a personal kenel though well no but added the hobby remember so should we add other than those for a hobby kennel and personal kennel yeah CU you don't are hobby kennels considered a personal Ken well that's my question well that's I thought we said it was Oh I thought we added it because no we added it as its own yeah because you said that a personal kennel is just somebody five or more Downs yeah right so we added our own hobby kennel for letter f well I would I put a note to add Bobby kennel under section two y five and then to add it in 5 C regarding inspections because we don't mention K so also be initial kennel licenses but why are we identifying because why would specifically why would the zoning board of appeals I I got to I got to read the Bible that may not be applicable anymore we got to look into the table of contents table of uses and look up kenel and see what it says there gotcha because that may have been changed to the uh finding group so I just have to read what the existing uh zoning byos say table of use put that imag someone consider it's residential you want have a a kenel that's approving by the zoning I I just want to see what the current Table of no I agree that's why I could see because I know this in the past and town has been was been pennels in residential zoning so that might be why it's in there to get a uh special approval for it and usually the zoning board of appeals is used to appeal a decision or another permit offer isue afforded that gives you your local appeal mechanism so the planning board would approve it first or and then if they deny it then it goes into the zoning board they can appeal it to the zoning board of appeals for that okay 20 days of the decision wait want to go if I'm asking to do something in a certain area and it's not allowed because it doesn't Zone not zoned for that the planning board can't allow it if it's not zone for it so therefore ask the um the zoning board appeals I'm appealing the zoning regulation yeah were um by theion so what it's not the planning board so would be the building inspector would have to deny it and then it would go to and that it would be appealed by at the if if the building inspector denies it the building perion denies denies it right then then you go in front of the that's the appeal process the licenses with the um to clerk is what it says so get which I understand that but if I'm just going say I want to start my own hobby kennel tomorrow and I go into town clerk and I pull out license for it and I fill it out does she then pour it into the building commissioner for him to approve my property for that hobby kennel cuz how else or who's double cheing to make sure that town cler usually checks like if somebody goes for a business and then she'll um she'll contact The Building Commissioner to see if it's um un allow it's allowed in that area okay just to get to your point is under the table of uses in the zoning bballs 3.5.1 7 Veterinary establishment placed for boarding animals or raising pets for gain full purpose it requires a site plan approval special permit and site plan approval by the planning board in residential single zones so the there so it's the planning board so they're approving special permit that a special permit and some site plan approval is required by the planning Bo in our current in our current bud so they so the planning board denies it then then go to it goes to the zoning board of appeals all right and it applies directly to rs1 residential RS right that's not they're not allowed in RM they're not allowed in industrial 2 Village Center but if they go into General business it's site plan approval by the planning board for those type of establishments all right so then we wouldn't put hobby kennel in um Section 3 B because it would need approval well it's not by the zon water appeal Z okay I would say may require may require special permit site approval by the planning board depending upon what district or Zone they're going into well if it says may well they're going into the Village Center it's not allowed period Well right let's head the word may right yeah instead of our subject to may require people by okay so to get back to Kim's point we we are we aren't putting hobby kennel here in where we're going to put we're going to put it in section two y under five a kennel definition Y and I believe we were going to P section three after commercial boarding we were going to put a hobby kennel for number six yes okay Kim was asking about it need to be in b as well for the additional license okay that's why I was just double checking it says additional kenal license other than those for a personal kenel may require approval by the zoning board of appeals that is correct by the by the planning board by the planning board according to our current bylaw okay for the zoning bylaws okay or we can just say are subject to approval in accordance with the zoning bylaws of the town of grany okay just in case that changes again I like that because it leaves it it leaves it open it meets the meets the current bylaws but have they happen to change and still meet them right so often sometimes we change bylaws and forget that actually impacts another bylaw so that does get changed yeah and I miss that wisdom that you have and knowledge you have there Chris this is it supposed to say what the fee or the fines are it just says the fees the fines and the fees shall be collected by the town clerk but they don't where where are you I think there's a um so this is section three H so it's right above section four besides giving the late fee of $25 if you don't register your dog on time oh no I see it in the back now enforcement penalties for Section six yeah there is a section the first second and third offense yeah so there are Fe there okay I can add up quickly I know I was going to say should we so since fines and fees are mentioned first and then the enforcement and penalties are mentioned well after should we say c section six enforcement and penal and penalty is there if someone's not reading this in its entirety they're go to fees and find and say okay I see that I have to pay the town clerk but how left right fine with that yeah no I don't see that need well it says if you're fined or if there's a fee has to be paid for the town clerk well think it's fine CU prior to that you talk about what it cost to license a dog which is a feet I think could just stand the way it is and in now this determination of listing of fees you know do we currently have fines and feast posted or no because I know this by is outdated I have no clue there there's some type of fine if you don't register your dog license dog was posted somewhere it's in the uh General bylaws yeah it is it is somewhere that gives them the authority to to do it Christopher bylaw changes are we required to have one or two public just one y you come so off when we B more y it's is there anything else that you s to I think so um Chris once this is cleaned up do we have to have another meeting to review or can we review it at our next select board meeting well I'm going to ask you this question yes are you going to plan on having another board meeting before the 7th of October besides the 23rd because it requires 14 days notice to post a special town meeting if you hold it on October 7th or sign it October 7th you will not be able to have your town meeting on October 21st which was a date that was agreed to by the moderator and the town court right can can we do it next Monday or no to what review this again yeah we can okay okay but just be advised that if we're going to keep making changes because it has to be out there so the public can see it once the warrant is posted so we going have to set what we Chang in Stall now to what it there no later than the 23rd because if you're going to start post it that this is what we're going to address at town meeting M there's going to be an issue if it isn't available to the general public I guess the question would be you are meeting on the 26 but that's the gravel permit hearing and usually you don't want to try and do anything else but that on that day and I did and you did say no later than the 23rd which should and the 21st was only was good for both the town clerk because it's away from the national election far enough and the town moderator is back in town again because she's leaving town for part of October so we would either have it have another another meeting this week or finalize it on Monday do we think that we would make more changes than what we've thought about here between now and Monday I think we were really thorough with it good well I think we would just need to see the updated draft well I can send that out once I get it done right send that out to everybody so I can review it and then if there was like a type like I don't know we see I I admit so should we just send you like individually what what we see and then have a final draft for Monday and then approve it are you guys are okay with that I'm okay with that I think that's doable okay okay go great yeah that sounds like so it we'll be added to the 23rd's meeting now yes good all right do you need any kind of motion since we were deliberating on it now or should we just wait until Monday once it's finalized well there two you can you can say to that you are while we continue endorsing endorsing the new animal control bylaw as amended subject to review at your next meeting why would we just continue because you don't want to continue a hearing you don't want to continue to hearing we gave we gave people the chance to come today to speak on it but it gives us the opportunity to make any other changes to after we close it you can you can once you see the final document and you read it because we've been making so many changes yeah that I'm sure yours looks as bad as mine with all the scribbles all over it you know you know I got I'm going to have to take and decipher what I wrote you follow lines around too yes so um but no the final version can be voted on again or you can say yeah we looked at it we saw a couple more change we want done and then you can make the motion as amended yes right that just takes public out of it that's all yes we'd have to close we'd have to close the the public the public meeting on this on this portion yes and then we can bring it back up at our next meeting any anything that may come up in discussion motion after that okay so we're going to wait to make a motion on one so do I need a motion to close the public hearing or I just close it right I think you closed it when you went into deliberation that's what I thought too but I don't think I specifically said it no but it's not it's not because we we had some from the public as well right oh so yeah you can close the public session or public portion public comment portion of the hearing so the do we need a motion for now I will make a motion to close the public section hearing of this meeting I'll second motion any further discussion no discussion all in favor I I I thought you were going to say something I was back all right um okay and then we will look at the Amendments made and vote on it on Monday I will second by motion any further discussion discussion all in favor I I thank you