FL flag United States of America to the for stands one na God indivisible andice for all you notice the provided to respective CER post legal ads on this was January 202 yeah roll call M yeah M here Mr here Mr here Mr Richie here M rman here M here M William here uh jumping into our minutes can I get a motion to approve item 2.1 for minutes for the regular meeting and work session of February 15 approve all in favor can I get a motion to approve item 2.2 minut special meeting of March 7th 2024 second all in favor can I get a motion to approve item 2.3 minutes for the special meeting of March 14th 2022 all in favor do we have any correspond no okay sorry I have some remarks CU I knew this was a big meeting okay I'm going to open it up for our first public comment section of this evening so this is going to be the first section this is for comment items that are on tonight's agenda that includes the grading scale because it's included in Dr F's presentation tonight please note that following the presentation we'll have board questions and comments then we're going to open it up for public dialogue and conversation um which will not be the same as a comment section so we'll have public comment presentation board question and comments then public dialogue together engaged um response questions things like that we will have our second public comment section at the end of the meeting as well which is for any items whether they're on the agenda or not we will follow a similar flow but we'll have a more robust time after the presentation today got it okay so I do want to open it up for the first public comment section of the evening if you are getting up to make a comment please remember to state your name and address and hold your remarks to three minutes please all right we are gon to move into sorry that Jo abbyland 23 Emerald Avenue so uh prior to the most recent Boe election a board member the short parents who were handing out flyers for this particular candidate that I will vote for what parents want in regards to the raing scale this member of the board said If the parents want change then I'm all for it this same board member told an attendee after the meeting last month our kids need to learn that they will not always get what they deserve in life and maybe it's better for them to learn that now maybe this member is forgetting that it's charity that begins at home not iniquity and not unfairness maybe this board member went to college in another era my mother-in-law entered per University in 1968 with the money she earned working out school at a pharmacy for a dollar an hour she was able to pay her way through next in school in her spare time because K's tuition was $350 a semester we're in another era now the Boomers will have their legacy and the rest of us will have ours student loan borrowers have amounted $1.6 million in debt most of that debt is owed by folks under 30 but a full 25% of it is owed by folks over 50 as we're entering a new new era multigenerational debt this year we'll send our oldest off College paying their tuition bills from the same funds that were paying my husband's undergraduate student loans half of the students who graduated from a public college or university in 2021 had federal debt averaging $21,000 per person the number is higher for private institutions College costs are outpacing inflation by Leaps and Bounds rman board in 1968 average about $1,500 per Academic Year in today's money that's $12,000 meanwhile average tuition room and board has rais nearly $30,000 at a public fouryear institution as the kids say that math is not mathing so help me understand why the people who are charged with serving the interests of the taxpayers and students would not do everything and anything reasonable in their power to help students and their families help our students get the Merit aidid they deserve help our students get the college to the college other dreams help them do that by adopting a 10o grading scale and a simple sensible system for waiting [Applause] gpas thank you any other comments uh Lauren BS 208 Hampton Road we've heard compelling arguments about how adopting a 10-point scale could substantially alleviate Financial burdens for families which is undoubtedly a priority whether it's parents saving money or students dealing with Hefty student loans the potential impact of on their future is substantial additionally there's a pressing need to address the negative impact of the seven-point scale on students mental health pressure to excel under this system is palpable and it's concerning to think that it could contribute to higher levels of Stress and Anxiety especially considering the financial strain many students already face however amidst all of this one crucial perspective seems to be missing that of our students while crunching numbers and analyzing data is essential it's equally important to prioritize the thoughts opinions and concerns of the students themselves they hold valuable insights that could redefine our approach to this issue and set a new standard for our community as parents Educators and community members we owe it to our students to provide a clear and understandable explanation for why this scale serves them best if we can't articulate this reasoning effectively or believe it's too complex for students to grasp then we're missing a crucial opportunity to involve them in the decision-making process a red flag that we must address our students are the heart of our educational community and their well-being and success should be our top priority after all how in Township is where students Thrive we must create a space where their thoughts and opinions on this matter feel valued heard and respective free from judgment or dismissal furthermore our teachers play a pivotal role in shaping the student experience and their input is invaluable in this conversation moving forward it's essential to acknowledge the impact of grading skills on both teacher assessment practices and student outcomes a 10-point grading scale offers teachers more flexibility to assess student work comprehensively fostering an environment focused on growth and Improvement rather than achieving spefic spefic grades it's about providing space for both teachers and students to thrive and succeed the adoption of a 10-point grading scale holds the potential to create a more Equitable and supportive learning environment while Financial considerations are crucial we cannot Overlook the profound impact that this decision could have on students mental well-being and academic success it's about prioritizing the holistic growth and development of our students setting them up for Success beyond the classroom ultimately we must reach a solution ution collectively this entire scenario is actually a wonderful opportunity for us to unite and demonstrate to our children and the broader Community how our school district can tackle challenges once all stakeholders including students and teachers are engaged in this process and equipped with the necessary information to make informed decisions it's imperative that we bring this matter to a board vote will there be a vote on this matter in the near future thank you another comment up front hi Jen Parker 105 Virginia app um this is in regards to a timeline of the grading system um in our experience trust has eroded over time starting over a decade ago when questions arose about the continued use of an eight scale despite reassurances the colleges recalculated doubts lingered in 2016 vice president Bonnie Richards raised my concern about transcript discrepancies asking the administration to look at putting numerical grades on transcripts but her ple was ignored further doubt ins ensured when ensued when the waiting formula was quered with re reassurance es did the school profile clarified matters however upon inspection the 20156 profile lacked transparency and there was no formula once the waiting formula was published to the school profile admissions Specialists criticized the formula saying it was convoluted and detrimental in the for the students best interest trust further wed during a presentation in April 2017 where it was reasserted the colleges would recalculate grades however it became evident that our transcripts lack the necessary data for such recalculation additional concerns arosed when the school principal altered The Waiting formula denominator for juniors underscoring the district's awareness of its policy limitations moreover a board member dismissive remark to dissatisfied voters telling parents to move if they don't like the policies here contrasted sharply with their own personal experience of the system shortcomings when their own child faced College admissions challenges this contradiction undermines confidence in the board's commitment to addressing these issues trust was further strained when the board and administrators opted for a closed door session in the December Board of Education meeting bypassing public transparency laws grading policies affect the entire district and should be subject to public scrutiny this breach of transparency only deepens our sense of distrust over the past decade College tuition has written risen over an average of 10% today colleges use grades as a form of currency through Merit based systems every dollar saved on education expenses translates to a higher value upon graduation however TI Township's grading and waiting policies do not serve the best interest of its students lower GPA result in lower Merit impacting students opportunities while College admissions considers a holistic view of a student Merit is based on fixed metrics leaving little room for flexibility We Believe believe implementing purposeful well-informed changes based on Research would be more beneficial than minor adjustments we need to build back the trust between the school and the Community Helping families afford college would be a really good start thank you any other comments hi Trish Atkins 1103 Eldridge I'm I'm a mom to a senior a freshman and fifth grader and had in Township and when I spoke to the board in November I was very clear that my senior Lily would thrive in spite of the 7o grade scale in had in Township I know Dr ficaro and her principal Mr O'Brien will agree with me that Lily has arrived but it's been filled with hard work in Ro blocks along the way for Lily the college process has necessitated endless self- advocacy on every application she began with a note my school uses a seven-point scale please recalculate when you look at my transcript in conversations with rowing coaches we really wanted to ler focus on her status as a disabled competitive athlete she had to like stop that hard conversation she's 18 she's she's trying to advocate for herself as a rower and here she goes she has to start every email hey my school uses a seveno scale so my GPA I'm putting on the recruiting form isn't as high as students with 10o scales when it came to leadership honors honors programs other private scholarships sometimes Le GPA wasn't high enough to apply but on the 10-point scale she easily met the the threshold for those scholarships she's been able to apply to we'll always ask ourselves how much did the seveno scale cost her we'll try to calculate the impact with every student loan in interest payment she makes in the world of 10o scales our kids grades are automatically deflated at large institutions average students are s are sorted into a deferred pile at small institutions kids and parents have two choices say not being in hope for the best or send emails no to make calls and ask do you recalculate our children are thrown into the misss and scholarship pool with kids who are graded on the 10-point scale in this pool it's like our seven-point kids are weighted down wearing jeans and a sweater trying to keep up with a 10o kids swimming across the water in their teex suits we've repeatedly been told it was an inappropriate time for us to research or ask that you research and recommend a change to the grade scale yet tonight there'll be a presentation and maybe a recommendation one that was completed during an inappropriate time it's really frustrating given the tenor of Whispers around town I'm certain the recommendation this evening will not be in favor of adopting a 10o scale if the reason is because students grades will automatically be higher then I say well that's exactly what we're asking for if the reason is because adjusting the grade scale will allow for space for more A's B's and C's well again that's exactly what we're asking for and if the reason is because adjusting the grade scale will allow less children to fall below a 2.0 then I say well that's also exactly what we're asking for and if the reason is because your Research indicates that grade scale simply doesn't matter or that schools or school recalculate then I say we the parents of students who have and are going through the college admissions process beg to differ your research should include all of our experiences and if the reason changing the grade scale is impossible because it reveals fundamental issues with the rigor and difficulty of our curriculum then I say you should be spending your time fixing our curriculum but still CH the great scale thank you thank you any other comments Hi Megan K 303 coer congratulations on the B the um I'm speaking to express support of a 10-point grading scale I've been an educator since 2009 and in that time I taught 9th grade through 12th grade at a variety of learning levels from inclusion science classes all the way to physics I've both I've taught in counties at both a smaller K district and a larger Regional High School District teaching science specifically physics has brought a diverse range of Learners through my classroom and one of the largest heartbreaks I have faced as an educator is hearing that students have declined to take classes that they believe might have present presented too much of a challenge to them in terms of their grades earned as Educators this goes against the very core of what our mission is our job is to prepare young people to be dynamic contributors to the world and I believe that the current seveno scale is creating a huge diservice for our students in that regard previously much of the conversation has been focused around the lack of consistency displayed by headship schools and compis since many of our neighboring districts as well as districts throughout the state um in terms of the grading scale and while I do not think that this should be downplayed and I acknowledge that the financial and College admission repercussions are Stark and severe for our students with the current grading scale I would like to bring a different point to the table and that's one that I believe our school board and administrators have an ethical obligation to fulfill and that is access to our students taking academic risks the mission of Haden Township School District is to expand Minds cultivate problem solvers and Inspire leaders who persevere in an evolving world this mission statement is supposed to drive the very core of what our school district does I ask how are we expanding minds and cultivating problem solvers when we are discouraging kids from taking academic risks or diversifying their course selection turn an a in a class currently students must earn a 90 degree as opposed to a 90 and the difference between a b is even more star the students being earn earn at least an ed5 as opposed to an ed I argue that this is presenting barriers to our Learners how many of our students would have selected a different course or even a different level of a cent course if they knew that their GPA was not at such a severe risk especially in comparison to their friends and neighboring districts We are failing our students and causing them to fall behind in more ways to want if we continue with the seveno scale we ow our students more thank you for your consideration and I trust that you'll make the decision that's in the scenario [Applause] thank you any other comments seeing No Hands we're going to move in Mr BR report and presentation [Music] all right this presentation we're actually going to cover uh a few different areas the full be about the GRE scale that's why you came that's what I'm going to discuss the mechanics around this are going to be very different uh I think we're we got both of us last month was um during the opening comment section and the closing comment section that's really not a time uh for the board or for the superintendent to engage a lot of dialogue rules around that are public comment sessions just be tonight I just expressing public comment super pend report we're building in a special section for questions and answers first it's going to for the board that is going to be out for members of the community I look forward to to having that with you tonight uh but before we get into the grading scale I do have a few things that I want to uh acknowledge um into the woods was uh a huge success and I'd like to [Applause] congratulate that they putting into that production we're continu to be proud of our Visual and Performing Arts uh Department next on the athletic side we have a very special achievement from one of our sophomores Ryan Quinn uh in the 100 meter butterfly has achieved First Team all South Jersey and second Team all state only a sophomore a lot more great things that come we also have a phenomenal group of uh teachers and professionally certificated staff members here at had school district as you aware um we have tab three US president of HTA with us tonight tab you the HTA Spotlight before I get into my presentation the podium um no hello everyone uh big turnout tonight so a few positive things around the district um elementary schools are currently using uh the March Madness bracket vibe to Foster excitement about reading and literacy the kids vote on picture books and promote them level by level and they're super excited about that um van skyver recently sold socks to raise awareness for World Down syndrome day and they wore those the school today so that was like a great um inclusive activity um here at the middle school we um have to thank Eric deil he kind of took on board um creating a March Madness fundraiser to raise money for the philanthropic fund which if you don't know um raises money to give um scholarships to high school seniors uh they fill out an essay application which goes before like a blind committee and then they are awarded um a scholarship so the teachers participated in that to raise money to put back into that fund for our um our seniors um at the middle school also we recently did the read for the house and we had set a goal of I think exceeding last year's goal which was $2,500 and our read ERS um we're able to raise over $4,200 for um the Ron McDonald house so we are extremely proud of our readers and then our final thing is our 1 plus one school selection we do have the title um it will be announced in May and we are hoping to collaborate with PTA and also the HT Equity um committee to make it an inclusive book so a lot of great things Happ here on the district teachers are hard at work the kids are hiding in there we're all counting down to Spring Break um and thank you for the time okay all right let let's get into gring scale let you know up front there's probably going to be some things tonight that I say that resonate with you some things may be able the surprise some things may not resonate I would like to acknowledge I know the reason why you're here tonight the biggest reason why you're here and that is because you love your children and you're asking for something that you believe is would serve your children well I know where you're coming from and I certainly appreciate that I'm the parent myself and uh together with the administrative team we did the very best we could gather as much evidence and information as we could and look forward to sharing with you um board of education has seen this slide they see it every year our administrative team sees it every year okay and this slide is how we um plan a school year Implement initiatives uh communicate those initiatives and prepare for the next year so again there was some awkwardness I think on this topic around the months of November January uh December um but this is not a new concept of how we manage and lead the district uh right around the period of September 1st to November 1st that is really the time period That's all about implementation that's when I expect my administrative team business administrator super assist superintendent myself the Board of Education to be laser focused on implementing all the initiatives that were planned from the previous year we are really good at generating ideas and education there are many Educators in the room with us tonight in the audience ideas are easy implementing ideas in the school system are very very difficult right and as a as a trade it's not something that we do particular well particularly well so we have to be laser focused on that especially during that first quadrant from November to January 30th we begin to evaluate Monitor and adjust our implementation strategies um this is a time where we're still very focused on current Year's initiative when we move into the month of February we start planning for the next year not only in terms of budget but also in terms terms of goals this is the period of time where the community is asked us to take a look at this topic such as grading scale and other initiatives that we're contemplating for next year that we begin the planning process because it's like a baseball player you never want to Take Your Eye Off the Ball especially too early in the game so during that time it's not appropriate um to remain laser focused on current Year's goals but we want to begin to shift our focus into what's going to occur the following year and the board understands that the goals have to drive the budget the budget um should never drive the goals we should make decisions for next year preliminary decisions primarily before the end of April April 30th first week in May at that point we've had enough time this year it might be particularly difficult considering that where the budget's at right now in the state aid talk about that the end of this ification but certainly when those decisions are made from May 1st to August 30th at that point it's really all about communication right we must be communicating with our community with our teachers students what what are we going to do why are we doing it and how the implementation look like I certainly look forward to traveling down that road when we get to that period um not only about you know this particular issue everything related to the bond and all the other initia in the school distri by the way and going to start out by thanking you for the support with the referendum you could not be more excited uh for taking that step forward okay greeting St right here's our process summary for what we have done up to this point on this topic uh administratively We've logged at least 7 I think it's probably closer to 100 but I didn't want to exaggerate so we're over 75 hours of evidence Gathering and qualitative research a lot of people throw the word uh research around really re to be researched in education that has a meaning for me that means peer reviewed and published I have some of those articles with me here tonight most of those journals don't really take a s on a grading scale um but for lack of a better phrase I would say that this 75 hours was evidence Gathering and interviews uh we've had personal consultations with over 30 director level College admissions Personnel I'm we speak to that in a few minutes I've engaged with 40 New Jersey superintendant on this topic many of which have changed uh to a 10-point grading scale and they've shared different perspectives talking about that during our question and answer period um I've consulted with third party group named collegewise and if you go to their uh website it l you know they call themselves experts in college education we've had multiple uh consultations with John Dante who's a principal of a high and cheering High School in Long Island New York and the host of the college missions podcast over 200 episodes on that podcast um you I would encourage you to you know a wealth of information I completed a literature review uh Rick Clark's book The Truth About College admissions a family guide and I had an opportunity to interview Rick uh as well on the telephone and this book here uh is Al has also been a resource for us and I after this presentation I have handouts for a few pages in the book um as well as every University that we spoke to and the individual at every University that we spoke to and the initi rank uh at University so we walk out of here tonight by all means you can take all that with you we've also had a lot of internal collaboration the administrative team I've met with parents many parents in this room tonight um we've talked to the staff the board talked to board member we met in committee um and you know there's diverse points of view on this and hopefully tonight um we can all kind of get on the same page and at least reach a mutual understanding of where the district's coming from certainly understand where parents were coming from especially the current cost of college so where I started to go at the end of last meeting and I stopped was that this process is more nuanced than it seems on paper because it's just not uh about a grade the first part of this is because the first question is what is a grade and what does it mean this is the very purest part that when administrators are talking with teachers this is what we discuss right and a grade really is a measurement of learning to which a standard a fair standard is established so why do we even have grades why are they numbers why are there numbers and letters why are they crosswalk to a 4.0 at all why don't we just have a narrative why don't we just use the whole alphabet why is it a to F right so these are all the philosophical things not going to spend a lot of time here on this but this is a part of what we do as Educators wrestle with the question is what what is a grade and why do we even have one the next is the Merit Aid conversation with and I'll tell you this is a real issue right uh folks have raised it in previous meetings I understand where you're coming from the word understands where you're coming from uh and so does the administration right we get it and uh we all you know as a parent I'm in the same boat and there is some points that we will discuss about meriting grades another level a lever that's closely interconnected to this is the idea of college admissions and how does the admissions process work when it comes to evaluating School profile and the grading scale and the actual students grades next would be crosswalking the grades uh to a 4.0 scale okay and that is an algorithm um that I think that we need to continue to educate parents on I think the algorithm that we use is not the easiest to understand but once you understand it I think it's extremely high quality because it really promotes educating the whole child and the shift that we make in our denominator does not penalize children that happen to be close to or above a 4.0 for taking elective classes okay because it does not allow those classes to bring their grade point average down and it also provides a weight for every single uh academic class that is taught here in hadn't Pat of high school because we believe educating the old child and also that every class matters as it pertains to a g PA that's not the case across the country the way many uh districts get around this uh grade point average you know algorithm is they're just not counting some classes towards the GPA and to me that's not acceptable because I don't want to say that certain classes are more important than others especially in a place like Haden Township where I know we all care so deeply about the whole child and lastly When A Change Is Made be really clear with you tonight we're not opposed to changes I don't think anybody in this room right now is opposed to changes I'm not sure what the changes are eventually going to look like at the end of this I'm going to lay out a process which I hope that you can understand and work with us on um but when changes are made um what is the timing you know how can the change actually occur who who would the change before when when would it go into effect uh and what would the mechanics look like around that and would the change actually have to do with the board or can the change be made uh without changing actually changing board policy we'll get into all that but when changes made I think everybody would agree that it has to be done so in the most valid reliable Equitable way we would not be interested in making changes that are retroactive right you know for grades that were earned and pict school year if there were happen to be changes uh then we're not going to go back and change change grades I don't think that anyone would really agree with that I mean philosophically anyway okay let's talk about the school profile because there has been uh a lot of discussion in the recent months and also at the board level about you know what is the role of the school profile how important is it I think some folks have indicated hey are just getting inundated now with application no one really cares about the school profile just give us the GPA and they're just going to be ranked sorted as part of the application process and my and what we found is that could not um be further from the truth and that the first question that a college uh admissions counselor asked when they open up the application is um who is the student and where does the student go to school once they understand where the student goes to school that leads them to the school profile and according um to this work uh on page 101 that the school profile is the gold mine of information and insight all right now one of the things I'll acknowledge up front and the board is already as that's already supporting us is the importance of continuing to update our school profile and to improve our school profile from year to year to make our school on paper um make it clear about what a competitive place we are and how proud We Are of having P of high school that everyone should know that right so that's going to be a point offis moving forward and if we need to make tweaks on that school profile uh we absolutely uh would support that okay next University tal I told you that um we spoke with 30 admissions counselors and we developed a standardized question because when it comes to qualitative interviews you don't want to ask the same question in 30 different ways you want to prepare a question that's standardized and you want to ask it the same way of every person and then you want to let the person speak okay the question that we asked was the standardized question was does Haden Township's eighto grading scale in any way place our students as at a disadvantage when it comes to consideration for admission or B scholarships and those two things are very different our attempt was made to reach the highest ranking director level admissions officer possible if we can get the president of the university on the phone we would have got the president of the University but we went as high as we could possibly go and you're going to leave here tonight with a list of at least 30 there might be 32 or 33 um schools that we contact the name of the person that we put spoke with and the percentage rate so for number two on the list LEL University Molly wall she's the executive director and lell is an 81% admission uh rate so this will be for your uh for your takeway okay now here's the part that um you're not going to be satisfied with but this is the truth okay and on the first question when we asked as our grading scale put our student at a disadvantage when it comes to admission the responses were emphatic and unanimous no the longer that the professionals spoke the more they said that in fact just the opposite is true from an admission standpoint my job tonight is not to give you information to make everybody happy my job tonight is to tell you the truth and this is the truth do okay from an automatic Merit standpoint there are some schools okay that in these types of circles with Rick Clark um that offer automatic Merit money based on a GPA okay um and these are are called for lack of a better sense they're called coupons which basically is is Mr mcarthy here tonight he's not he's not here are you serious he's out of town all right the last couple meetings Mr mcra had stated like schools that don't recalculate schools that uh are providing automatic uh Merit money for automatic raid Point averages you know so you have 2.5 you're getting this amount of money you're getting 3.0 you're getting this amount of money 3.5 and so forth so the reason why we went into executive session part of the reason why I went to Executive session in December is so Mr O'Brien our principal could explain to the board how many students we were talking about that attended in the class in 2023 schools that attended universities that did not offer automatic Merit Aid and schools that and students that went to universi ities that offer these GPA coupons every school is different and I'm GNA take a pi a take a pick a spot here and just say something Mr O'Brien has been in this district for 30 years okay Mr O'Brien is a Notre D graduate and Mr O'Brian is a University of Pennsylvania graduate you may ask what that means I'm going to tell you what that means that means he could have worked anywhere he wanted in the country but he has been here for 30 years so Rick Clark might be an expert on College admissions but Mr O'Brien is an expert on had and Township students so what we did in that December meeting was we went student by student by name by face and we look look at which students were affected by this Merit coupon money and which students we not so this the statistics around that are 89 students from the class of 2023 attended 57 universities that do not offer automatic Merit aid for specific GPA and these schools are typically more selective with higher standards and more competition for admissions and that's reflected uh on on the handout tonight 22 students from the class of 20123 attended 12 schools who offer these GPA coupons for a specific grade point average typically these schools are less selective commonly with 90% admissions rates are higher I'm going to distribute this PowerPoint for you tomorrow morning so I if you want to continue to take pictures that's fine but you'll have it in the morning of these 22 students that attended these 12 schools some of the schools will recalculate a numeric score to a more advantag scale some will accept submissions of final grades to maximize financials Awards up until the end of the fourth Market period some do need them so to be clear some of these students at these 22 that went to Bullet number three some didn't either they received less Merit typically on average between $1,000 and $1,500 more per year per per step and most of the time you know steps were Del delineated differently amongst the schools 2.5 3.0 3.5 so okay some course performance Trends uh Mike seon vice president for enrollment Santa clar University we get applications from over 300 schools around the world and have seen every conceivable combination of curriculum grading and waiting it is not the GPA that matters it's what's behind the GPA um that's important and what he's discussing here is the richness of the school profile and the competitiveness of um the school environment this is a key part now cuz we're getting here next to determined course performance regardless of the school's grading scale colleges are looking at grade distribution and numbers of students in a class this is the reason why every school district must make a decision on grading scale and other aspects because every school population has different kids that achieve at different levels our role part of our role besides to help students meet their maximum Potential from an admission standpoint is to allow colleges to understand the difference between students that achieve poorly academically and had tal that are not candidates for their school students that have formed average students that have been good students students that are excellent students and students that are Elite students these categories are all different and college universities expect a school district to have a distribution of grades that was that demonstrated on the last slide why reason why we must do this is because our students are compared to other students in the same system our students are very much being compared to other students that are in the same class that are in the same school that are taking the same course in the same grading scale it's imperative that we have a distribution that allows universities to make those comparisons according to the experts one thing that not one expert would say that was true okay including the author of the book all the folks that we talked to as part of that first slide in the process everyone agrees unanimously there is no comparison from one system to another from from an admission standpoint universities are not looking at our kids comparing them to kids down the street kids across the country or internationally because everyone does it differently there's a school district in South Jersey that happens to be on a 10-point scale but they're crosswalking it to a s.0 right it every school has a little bit different of an algorithm or a way to sort their students to measure the effectiveness of their learning on page 103 of the text the proliferation of different grading scales in our nation's high schools over the last decade has been simultaneously maddening and numerous to colleges not to be outdone by the numbers of the alphabetic grading scale and its modifications some schools have now fully embraced the entire alum so University ad missions officers their understanding that school districts are trying to do these types of things to quote unquote gain the system no one's gaining the system um from an admission standpoint a merit standpoint I showed you the date already we'll revisit that regardless of grading scales recalculations weighted unweighted GPA when it comes to assessing academic performance College admissions reviewers are asking and discussing a very simple question as the student taking challenging classes and done well I don't have a slide for this two other things they're asking are is the student doing better later in their High School career okay and that's in the book and in the handout and how have students that are previously attended that high school and University do it in that in that uh in that school so how our students are doing right now you know that's graduated here through years ago in these universities that we contacted or others that's going to have a direct influence from an admission standpoint on how the class of 2024 variable to be admitted or not so that's an important piece of this colleges will not simply be putting GPA onto a spreadsheet and sorting them to make admissions decisions the assessment process is nuanced I just explained to you why it was nuanced because of those five levers and more doing the best I can here folks to get to get through the most important question that when I talk with other superintendents many of which Shain scal and other Educators from around the country is it philosophical it's practical the most important question is how are our students doing doing on the current scale nobody has asked this and this is a major reason to consider before we cons before we decide on whatever changes we make we all should know how our students are doing it on the current scaff it's the most important attribute to this whole thing and what is the impact of that so let's talk about normal distribution right everyone in the room is familiar with the bell curve a bell curve is a perfect distribution of poor average and Elite Performance see bell curves when it comes to all different types of things but on an academic bell curve that we used to probably be gr it when we were parents my particular age went to school right um average would be in the middle so an average student would be a c student 2.5 grade point average on a 1 to four if we happen to have a distribution of grains that was less than that that slanted to the left like this I would agree with you I think everyone would agree with you that this scale would be too rig right so if this was our distribution where 60% of Haden Township students were achieving below a 2.5 there would be a case that changed the standard of measure you have more than half of your students below average you're grading too hard now there's a lot more to rigor than just grades we talk to teachers every year every day about the three parts to riger one is content what's being taught the other one is process how it's being taught and the last one is product the assessment piece and part of the assessment piece is the standard of measure that's being utilized to grade the product if we had a standard of measure that showed 60% of our kids were below average that would be unfair some would argue that if we had some people on this list some folks that spoke through some superintendent on their districts students don't achieve as high as our students would argue that if we had a distribution where 60% of our students would be over a 2.5 or certainly a 3.0 now you're moving from good to excellent if our distribution was over 3.0 some would say that this St would not be rigorous enough the students who had in Township are here okay class of 2023 25% of hat Township students on our eighto grading scal are above a 4.0 that means one out of every four students went through 9th 10th 11th and 12th grade without getting anything lower than a 93 and in fact they did that and many times classes that were weighted so they're getting they're getting there okay this scal uh shows that our students are not having trouble uh hitting the metrics 76% of them uh are above the 3o it suggests that we go to need to go to a more rigorous scale I don't want to be run out of town I love being your superintendent I don't I'm not suggesting that we go to a more rigorous scale I'm simply showing you that the data only would suggest less room for bundling especially a uh that we have so why is this bad from an adiss standpoint especially for the majority of our kids if we move the belt right if we change the a measure for what makes an a let's look at what Meredith Graham says former admission officer at Cornell University it's a lot harder to discern who a school's true stop students are when there are a huge number of students who share top gpas in these cases it dilutes the impact students can be disadvantaged in the admissions process there is a huge performance difference between a student who has a 97 average and a student who has a 91 average but it would be indistinguishable when a she's talking about a flat 10o scan at selective colleges having that kind of compression or traffic jam at the top of your class is generally counterproductive counterproductive for who counterproductive students that are achieving north of the 3.0 which is where we have 76% of them having a perfect or above perfect GPA would also then become meaningless in that context that's a problem that's a problem for us if we change the Scout of flat 10 it's going to become more of a problem I want to create more of a problem I can't recommend that we create more of a problem because we have to look at the impact of what's happening right now and what has been happening in the hand School District you may recall Savannah grum's student presentation from January or February when she indicated and we don't tell them what to say like I don't I didn't know what top was going to talk about tonight I don't descript the president of htea I don't script Brady and Savannah uh when they give their student report they give their student report they're part of the Board Savannah grm says it's been amazing student students are getting into their first choice of colleges and here are some of the colleges that are class of 2023 students are attending doing remarkably well and already our class of 2024 students have been admitted to Virginia naal Academy Lan Mary Syracuse Cornell Lehi Bucknell Dickinson George Washington University of Pennsylvania banova Steven Institute of Technology middleberry and North e I'm not saying we don't have a problem here I'm not saying you don't have a concern but in in an attempt to help community and the board the administration and myself move forward I think it's important to Define what the problem is we're trying to solve a merit Aid problem we are not trying to to solve an admissions problem because our grading scale has nothing to do with admissions I'm 100% convention to that we've logged almost 100 hours of evidence collecting to support that belief that's stronger now than it ever has been so what I hope that we could partner together on community Administration board together to pass a $30 million Bond we could partner on this is there a way to help students earn more Merit Aid money without jeopardizing the admission process for others that is the question don't want to lower that rigor of our scale because it changes the school profile like Miss Graham says students GPA at the top 25% of them go towards 3.5 you get closer to 50% would be viewed as in her words meaningless when we consider changes only changes that will benefit the majority of our students mostly all of our students or all of our students should be cons should be considered specifically the students that we trying to help here in the adjustments that we're considering are aimed at helping students who are just below the 25 we just below the 3.0 on our current scale and that is either 12% or 24% depending on where that cluster is we know where every student is okay we want to help them access more marit in that Arena I understand I hear your concerns I agree with your concerns so does everyone in the room our Administration our board we get it $9 for exit Sprouts I was again we don't want to do that while we're jeopardizing admissions for students that are above that 3.5 how can we do it everybody sees the graph help those right below the line two lines 25 and 3 when you get especially to the right don't want to lower the rigor of our scale change our school profile and we've been warned about this uh across the board by the highest ranking administrative officer that we've been able to speak to here's my recommendation for process and timeline restate in my clear conscious I cannot recommend a flat 10-point Scout there are some things that the high school administration team counselors are already considered we haven't communicated that yet because we haven't completed a decision because of the timeline that I've already established but some things are very much on the table I don't want to get into a ton of examples here tonight but improving the school profile I've already discussed we need to certainly do more education for parents uh about how this all works you know um especially around the crosswalking of the GPA to a fourpoint scout why is it four points why isn't it five why does the denominator change we need to do better you know I don't if I need to make a video you know so that could be rewound I just most clearly understood it myself this year and I didn't get it on my first try and I'm a former math teacher so I understand your pain in that area it is a little exract but once you get it I want to restate that think this great um one of the things that we could do that other districts have had success with is just keep the scale that we have and take the letter grade off the transcript completely we're not afraid to change the transcript maybe we remove the letter grade and the GPA maybe right here's the transcript bunch of numbers universities you figure it out right but we do need to tr tread lightly because when we start to discuss things things and there are other things that folks have you know I've learned that other districts were doing we're not going to talk about any particular District but folks have Incorporated a plus you know or plus minus that gets tricky because it has unintended consequences for crosswalking it to a 4.0 don't want to get into that tonight the role of tonight is not for me to tell you the grade scale what's going to be for next year I'm outlining the process I skipped the slide sorry there's nothing that says the grading scout needs to be equal 10o Scout 8 point Scout it could be seven at the top nine in the middle 11 after that and maybe no F maybe no d goes right to F you know some schools have taken the d off of the uh off of their r scale the bottom line is the districts that have made changes or stayed the same have made those changes or stay the same based on what was best for them and every school district is different because as you can see how the students achieve different the best thing about this the worst thing about this C process was nobody wants us against that right you know the board serves the community I serve at the board we part ourselves with solid relationships with teachers strong initiative team the work first thing about this has been we have not all been feeling um that we're alling This Together part that I think responsibility for because I purposfully didn't communicate on this until now because didn't want take my eye off the ball of other initiatives that we start but we have to come together now the best thing that we've learned the best thing about this process is we able to get a lot of information and learn from that information and I'm really clear on the problem uh that I think we're trying to solve and the complexity of it so the high school administration and counselors are going to make a they're studying this I expect them to make a recommendation okay if the recommendation is made uh for improvements or changes and they that affects board policy the board has let me be clear here the board policy starts and stops specifically um around the grade right the letter grade a close relative of the letter gra is the algorithm that's utilized to crosswalk to a 4.0 that's not part of board policy that's not part of board Pro if the recommendation is n that would affect board policy um to me then um we'll share that recommendation a with uh the Board and they'll incorporate that as part of the first reading parents need to be part of the process before it's approved we're I'm not going to go through this again nobody wants to go through this again in two or three years we can't have a committee of 75 people right so I've already met with a lot of people out here tonight I know I've spoken to many of you um I asked where Jerry was because Jerry has become the face of this in the last few meetings I've met with Jerry I've met with Nicole I've met with Mike talked with Trish I've met with Alfred I've met with te I've talked to Tracy so you know I think it's up to you right um after you know if there is a recommendation uh to change board policy or a recommendation that doesn't influence board policy before we uh actually implement it I want to meet with you okay whether that's me alone or the policy Comm chair Mrs Rodney or Kelly or Mar the Pres the work we'll figure that out okay okay I want to restate we want to do this together in June of 2024 that's when well the Su you always want to end a school year prepared the day after to open the following year even though you have the summer you never want to need the summer to prepare so we want to we want to decide and make it official before the last day of school what it will be for next year and then part of the tricky part is like who would be for how would it effect and that fits exactly with the cycle that we've always followed here at least under my tenure um you know right around the end of April um until those preliminary decisions are made nobody wants to hear about budget I'm going to do an anyway I promise to be four minutes okay we're in a tough spot with budget of you understand that we are under a 2% cap our 2% cap allows us to increase the local tax levy by $519,000 that does not meet our expenses we have shortages pretty much across the board especially in special education if you have questions about this we I will um address them in uh Q&A period of this presentation um this was originally on March 7th where we were at we had had a net a net deficit of about $2.5 million uh considering the UN the surprise after the $800,000 state aid dget we were initially able to make very quickly $500,000 of cuts to line items supplies and other areas some of those special education numbers were worst case scenarios um so able to kind of trim that off a little bit we're facing 2 million deficit right now we're hoping to get more money from state aid we're hoping to get more money and extraordinary Aid during the work session I don't know how many of you were here M president hkl talked about how our district um is has been chronically underfunded in the area of special education so that's certainly playing into this budget right now and the challenging decisions that are ahead timeline on this is tonight's the Boe meeting I have not sent you out an email that has said call state senator Beach call assemblywoman lampit send them an email because within 24 hours of us receiving news of this reduction I contacted mayor T mayor T contacted Senator Beach Senator Beach's representative contacted me and within 24 hours had assemblywoman lampit and assembly man green on a zoom they were incredibly responsive they were incredibly shocked about what happened they were surprised and I think 100% committed to helping us recapture this state aid at that point I just didn't want to send the community to the EMA in boxes I've seen what you guys have done on Facebook right I just didn't think it was fair to then so um you know we may get to a point next week where I'm asking you the write letters to different politicians um but right now I don't think we're there yet and I'm hopeful that we're going to have some of this uh funding uh restored okay that was about 25 minutes longer than I wanted to go but I think it's important and you heard it from me I want to assure you that I did this the very best that I could in the most accurate unbiased way and I wish I could found different news for you um but this is the most honest most thorough way that I could have presented this and I didn't be table so I don't like presentations not yet you have a chance excited I have a question okay now um here's what we're going to do I understand public comment is awkward because you say a bunch of things and we stare at it right but that's the rules of New Jersey right so now we're having a special engagement period we're not going to limit you to three minutes okay and you're not going to have to stick your name or your address but first i'm going to hear from the board the board uh should have the first opportunity to ask any questions the best I canid turn it over to okay can I ask just why if why would neighboring districts do this and and knowing the same consequences why if I'm another town that has an H in it why would I go through knowing the same right what's like why listen every every district is different has to make decisions that are best for them every grade every distribution is different um we I work r c right folks in the first row here work right C our job is to do everything we can to help as many students as we can without hurting any right and when push comes to shove to make decisions that are going to affect the majority or most of the students and I just showed you where the majority of the students are lining up and that doesn't change in this year's junior class um it didn't change to the class 2022 I just didn't want to put more bar graphs up there I knew I was the wall can I I'm sorry can I no don't I I see a number of people that I know from the junior class and I it's the same kind of hesitation I would have right is that I'm going into this my my kids going to college I hear that these there's concerns what how do I eliminate some of those concerns going into this right because I I went through this I kind of know the process but it it is an overwhelming process and there is a lot of misinformation that comes out of this so and that at the end of the day we're just trying to get the best for our students so what's the best part for just look I know a lot of juniors are couple things if I'm talking to the kids I will say when I was a junior in high school I would always wish that things were easier but as I got older I was glad they weren't and I was glad that the achievements that I earned I really had to earn them right you don't understand what I'm talking about right now because you're going through it but you will um to parents uh we need to provide more education that just is not just about a GPA and why right and that when we wanted if we decided to make some type of aggressive change that how our students could actually be heard in that process from the mission standpoint and that's the key Jen right you don't want to like pit the 80% of students against 20% of students and we don't want to separate we don't want to put parents against parents depending on where their kids fall on that scale we want to help them all so it's really our job to try to kind of figure that out you know I don't know if there's a silver B would appros to that it's going to be more parent education it's going to be looking at that GPA crosswork it's going to be looking at the grading Scout considering maybe a plus or widening the middle I don't want to go through every possible way that's not what tonight's about but we're working on it so I have a question related to process right so you referenced that part of the Board responsibility obviously is the greatting scale yeah while it's not the GPA calculation part of our policy is also that it's the Board responsibility for Clear communication around student progress to families to students Etc we've referenced this evening around the school profile as well as hinted sort of at the transcript and I know from concerns of a number of people in the room that those are certainly areas for continued refinement and that you and the high school staff evaluate that on an annual basis to say how do we get better and and what does this look like so for the parents and and students in the room who have looked at other school profiles or other transcripts and have recommendations not from a place of deficit but from a place of saying hey we love being in head and Township how do we make head in Township shine as brightly as we can is it going to be that parent engagement standpoint that is or that place in the process that's the best point for them to plug in like I I want to make sure that we're equipping the folks in the room with I think I'm I'm ready to talk to parents now but I've been talking to parents and Mr O'Brien has had an Open Door throughout this process even when I have said like I don't talk about this right now because we have other things that we working on he is continued to keep his going and this door open he's Contin to good folks um as you know as late as I think the last week um and it's not just an annual review of these things even during the year we changed the transcript within 24 hours was brought to our attention that this particular change could help students within 24 hours those numbers were on that transcript University he said Yep this is going to help the kid we put the numbers on we help the kid right we want it we're here to serve and to help kids everyone is there's no question about that Kristen okay so when you sorry when you shared that bell curve for our students where like 76% were're above a 3.0 correct do you think that um there there's an issue of grade inflation that we're kind of trying to fix with the grading scale like is there something we could do to fix the something do to fix grade inflation regardless of grade yeah like I guess my concern is like are we having a more difficult grading scale because we're concerned that our grades that we have a great inflation issue I I'm interested in um improving the range of rigor in the school system right and a lot of folks would just say rigor rigor riger and that's not good because you never want to have a a Content or a process that's too rigorous it always depends on a student's Readiness level um but when it comes to what's being taught how it's being taught how it's being assessed in the scale that it's being used to measure you want to have consistently consistency reliability in the scale and yes you want to get more rigorous not less moving to just a flat 10 would represent a shift in one of the three if you think of it as a three-legged stool product being the third leg you're getting less rigorous in that particular on that particular leg has nothing to do with the process you can still get more rigorous in your process and the content you teach although the content is dictated by the standards okay and then my other question um was regarding the timeline for Community involvement so you had it kind of between the first and second reading of a policy change yeah like I was just concerned like how that would work I guess because then we would already have a policy written and we're just getting feedback on the Poli that's right y but like what if I just feel like for example with the grade level school is concerned like we got a lot of creative ideas and stuff from the community on how to resolve that issue so like I'm concerned if we're already at the point of here's our recommendation we might miss out on some opportunities to come up with yeah we've already I think already I've already collect at that but in a formal setting if you're going to have a parent gr I'm asking for our now our administrative team our high school administrative team and our guidance Department um to take the next segment of time on that and make a recommendation for how to help those kids um in marting without hurting on to time we've already collected a lot of information I think the parents and the audience I think that you're a assembled tonight with the impression that you're cut all in one camp and I'm going to tell you there different camps within the camp and some of the things that have been suggested I'm going to tell you I disagree with right some of the things that have been suggested we're very open-minded about um so those suggestions particularly around the algorithm and why why isn't it a 5.0 Scout I mean somebody just said that talking to somebody today and said you want to help those kids with those coupon schools that have that aren't recalculating and that yeah we're looking at a chart I'm not going to tell you the school right but it's like hey kid gets 2.5 you get this Merit Aid you have 3.0 this Merit Aid 3.5 this Merit Aid 4.0 this Merit Aid go to a 5.0 go to a 5.0 you help all those kids immediately right so um there's things that we there's things that we could do uh that we're going to entertain everybody Isis um I I'm not an educator I think all the Educators in the room I think all the parents in the room um I am a parent of a junior so I am currently going through the college admissions process I am a numbers person I'm really big on statistics and where we land on things and I'm usually looking at 10% of the population I've expressed this um however what I've learned as a parent in this process is when I have the conversation in regards to admission grades Etc 100% of the time the feedback from the missions counsel is it depends it depends and I've sat as a parent in a seat where if you're telling me there's 40,000 kids coming through your door what is the first level of defense and as a parent even from an admissions office I have not gotten a clear answer and I think that's a contributing factor to the the issue with the grades Etc I'm listen before this reductions of budget like I'm not I wouldn't be opposed to Bringing In Like A collegewise or group to do more parent education and more board education with how the admissions process was he was very interested today and seemed willing to talk to whoever the gentleman that has the podcast log 200 podcast University he's interested in willing to help a lot of people are willing to help right you to pay for someone asking for but I think it's parent education is always a good thing um where I was going with it is that that's been my my personal um feedback as I go and I talk about GR in particular um what I do think is important um is addressing the Merit Aid concern we can all raise a valid concern and I do also agree that we always need to keep in mind the most vulnerable um subset of the population which it looks like is the conversation that is next to be had about how we serve the kids that are at the lower ends um or in the in between so I'm sorry I was standing up because I feel like we're really down here um do you want to go first okay this is just a a comment really not not necessarily a question um first I would like to say thank you to our Administration for the hours that you put in to all of the research and thank you to our community members for the hours that you put into research um nobody got paid for doing this uh they certainly did not get paid extra for doing this um you did not get paid for putting in this research you did it out of the kindness of your hearts because you care about our students um I do not have I have not experienced the like Jim and um Isis I have not experienced yet with personally with my own kids going through the college process I have a sophomore and I have an eighth grader but although we are right around the corner it's knocking you know at our door this summer looking at all of of the research um it seems to me like it's a miracle for anybody to even get into college um some schools accept a GPA is their first measure some don't some seem to accept uh a certain specific SAT score some want a certain demographic um some only want a certain you know they've already accepted enough students from a specific zip code it feels very um it feels all over the place to me like it actually you know starts to give me a headache trying to think about getting into college but my my concern and my biggest concern is once our kids do get into college is making sure that we are doing whatever we can and whatever measures we can to make sure that they are getting the most amount of money to be able to afford College to not come out with you know millions of dollars in debt so that's just my my summary of how I've been trying to process at 3 in the morning when I wake up because you know at this age we just seem to be awake from 3: to 4 in the morning so just trying to you know as I play over all different scenarios I just that's that's just where I'm kind of at with this thanks I agree so yes thank you all for the administration's work your work but I want to address the public because I've been told that I was on one side of the grading scale before and I've switched sides and to me there's no sides to this I want to talk about my experience and kind of talk to what happened with my child and where things kind of Drew Me in different directions so during the 201617 school year my son was applying to many colleges he was weight listed to his Top Choice at first contact with the college he was told it was his GPA that created the wait list for him we were finally able to secure an appointment with the head of admissions who actually walked us through the process which was far from the GPA position that we had believed they looked at the rigor of his had and Township courses the extracurricular activities that my son participated in and his community service those factors were not what got him weight listed it was actually the college's demographics and needs that created the weight list so kind of going with Renee colleges choose lots of different things to go with when they choose a student so they stated that they look at other factors for admission such as the number of students from a particular School the region the state they looked at how many students were applying to that particular major the finances and the diversity needs of the school so after meeting with the head of admissions I realized that the college process is not as simple as we try and make it these nuances and admissions can be the difference between acceptance weight listing Merit money it's a complicated process where prospective families need to be educated as they enter high school and that's something I've talked to Dr Fitz aaro about a lot it really is that we need to be educated on how to get through that process to get the most for our kids to get them into the colleges we want to get that money that we need so I believe that we can work together it's not an US versus them it's not a right or a wrong we need to work together as board members as community members as Administration I wouldn't be standing here today if I didn't care about the kids of had in Township I wouldn't be here listening and learning and getting all this information if I didn't care about these kids and I hope that we can all work together to come up with a solution that is good for all the kids the low kids the High kids the middle kids to get them what they need so they're not in debt so that they get to the colleges they want to get to my son ended up at a very different college that gave them that college looked for kids from this area they looked for kids and offered what they called Flagship match we paid tuition for my son to get an excellent education in Maine so that's something that we need to educate as well where are other schools that are offering some really great things for our kids so I thank you for your time and EO a bit of what Marie said I've been reading a book called uh who gets in and why and um one of the points um in that book is actually that the emissions process is designed to benefit at the colleges not the students they're designed to basically get the students that the colleges want and there's all sorts of factors involved and I agree I think you've kind of already said that we're going to be working towards trying to come up with a way to get our students more marit and I agree that that's really important especially with how expensive college is now I mean kids are paying for loans for years and years and years so um but I just wanted to you know Echo also what Marie said that unfortunately this process isn't designed to be easy for parents or students so hopefully we can do something to reduce the stress and the cost for our students any board members have specific questions about because I these folks have Meed a long time I want to get questions to anyone else specific questions about all right why why don't we do the you guys good good all right why don't we do this let's raise the screen let's let the board go back to the seats you opportunity to stand up and ask questions we're going to answer I'm the last one to be in the room tonight thank you for being here thank you for listening we are going to take a five thank you all okay we're moving into public dialogue section so I wanted to just share a little bit more about this process before we open it up so during this time which we always offer after presentations but rarely are taken up on uh we're going to be in dialogue together with Dr Pho and me representing the district and the board while the rest of the board is actively listening we can engage in questions and responses in a way that's different from the public comment sections that we typically have on the agenda you don't need to limit yourselves to one question question or comment or 3 minutes though I ask that we ensure we're making space for others to speak up and not accidentally monopolizing time we setting aside 60 Minutes for this public dialogue while I wasn't at the last regular Boe meeting because I had Co I watched the recording there were parts of that meeting where individuals were talking or yelling over others when they were trying to speak if that happens here or if I feel like this meeting and conversation is starting to devolve or becoming disrespectful I will end that time before we jump in I also want to clarify the process so when the board votes on a new policy or policy changes I think that's been a little bit confusing the first and most important piece of this is that it's being recommended by the superintendent the board does not vote on anything that is not recommended for a vote by the superintendent the board does not put items on the agenda for vote without the recommendation of the superintendent first the grading SC is a topic that obviously evokes a lot passion opinions are strong emotions have been high in this dialogue I just ask that we all remember the importance of actively listening to One Another let's resist the temptation to Simply wait for our turn to speak but instead strive to truly hear and understand each other I ask that we seek first to understand then to be understood so that I want to open it up for our 6 minutes together all right it's 8:46 when you're making a comment please just stand so that folks can hear you better I saw a hand here and then we'll go to the back ma'am you do not need to state your name you do not need to state your name or your address just any question that you want y great um well so a couple of things I feel like there's a little either miscommunication or conflicting information because we don't use an 8 point scale we used a seveno scale um and that being said like a lot of what I'm hearing about uh the colleges there was no mention of the Comm app so a family member of mine since the 80s has worked in colleges and universities she told me that most colleges use the Common App as a way to immediately cut or called the her and it's based on straight up numbers none of that seems to be discussed in this uh so it's hard to make an adjustment when no one's actually looking at the information for at least the first run through um I appreciate that a lot of our students do put in their comments about you know that we have a different grading scale my child did as well but if it um just seems like it's it's not the full information that's being processed and then it's uh you know when I when I went to school the college used a 10-point scale and this seems to still be consistent I took a class and everyone was afraid of this professor we all studied we heard like it was difficult and on our first exam the lowest grade was like an 83 this professor was so mad because he couldn't do his belel he didn't change the grading scale but he made the following classes much more difficult so I feel that giving our students that benefit of not having to take up time explaining our seveno scale we could adjust our scale so our GPA are a little more accurate my my daughter was not going to qualify for uh a scholarship because her GPA was a 3.1 and it said you had to have a 3.5 I went through and recalculated she actually does on a 10o scale have a 3.5 change so I think this small adjustment would be helpful across the board it doesn't have to be all of a sudden we're watered down and everybody's getting a because I I I don't think that that's really the case but um I just feel like information was being left that's all right yeah it's uh a knowledge the question some good points that were raised there I I had to cut the uh I think I spoke for 15 minutes I could have probably put 24 more slides on there got into some of those things I will say that our scallet is considered to be an 8 point scale because there's eight units between each grade so at the top 19987 6 5 43 that's at the range of eight and then for a b 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 that's a range of eight so it's eight units that are part each grade that's why universities consider us an 8 point scale even though when you kind of subtract the range come up with the value of s as far as the common app that doesn't change any information I present as far as my presentation and the effect of school the school profile and information that un thank you Dr P Carl for the opportunity to have some Dialogue on this I just had some clarifying questions as I was listening to the presentation um so oh first of all do we have any transcripts of the interviews that were conducted with Rick and the um admissions recorded transcripts not recorded no minutes types notes that type of thing we have what I hand it you tonight uh which is the summary of the talking points and the universities that we contacted with people theion that's we have okay thank you um if universities use a 10o scale as their standard of what defines a grade why would we not set our children up for success by mirroring that standard just to explain I mean distribution that we have right how our students are achieving the impact that it's had onology missions and marit so guess kind of more on that then um so are you able to provide a breakdown of the coupon schools and do you believe that the students who attend these schools should be discounted because it kind of came across that way in the in the discussion in the PowerPoint I don't know if others feel that coupon schools I think everyone if you've been attending the last couple board meetings in said just school doesn't recalculate that school doesn't recalculate for a school that doesn't recalculate um we're basically identifying them as a a coupon school right and most of them that we're aware of have a higher ad choice on the sheet of paper you could probably identify them um by the the emissions rate that's in parentheses I think if you see schools that have a greater 90% uh emissions rate I think it's safe to assume at this point that they're probably offering some type of coupon for uh GPA that doesn't mean they don't recalculate they may or may not so is that a coupon you mean like a merit scholarship based on GPA is that Merit scholar automatic without any recalculation we're labeling as a coupon it's just kind of cut and dry when you when they don't do that holistic recalculation um we I use terminology coupon because that has been what is now folks that are in the business kind of label that to use that word that makes sense thank you for clarifying that um do you know how many Juniors currently hold the number one position because I understand that the the grading scale concern is that it's going to compress but to my knowledge I've heard that the the top 10 is really cluttered as it is so I was wondering if you could confirm that or not you looked at we've looked at um the class of 23 and 22 and 24 and if we made this change things would compress deeply it' be more compression for sure um yes we look at every student um so the standard of measurement that we saw on the PowerPoint was our students compared with one another corre but the admission process is actually comparing our students to other schools so um do we have any data that shows how our measurement is in respect with other schools and admissions process I'm sorry man I have to I either mispoke or misunderstood the admissions process Compares our students to our students it does not compare our students to students in other schools from an ad Mission standpoint of course it does I guess I think I mean like when admissions are looking to admit students yeah when they're looking to admit students they're only comparing our students against our students we're not comparing our student against another student in another system with a great they're not comparing their gpas because their academic performance occurred within a different context on a different scale so it's it's not a reliable thing to do to compare apples to orang juice so to speak so the admissions counselors take all the Haden Township applicants in one pile all the Haden field and one is that like how you the hand out that is I think I hope you got the handout but it talks about the first thing in Mission counsil do exer from this book is to become an expert on the student in the context that they learned which is the high school um do we have any data on the schools such as haddenfield and others that have converted to a 10-point scale and whether that's impacted uh their college admissions or their Merit Aid I've talked with a lot of different superintendents not going to discuss another District uh tonight in a public meeting and I would certainly not want another superintendent to discuss had C the meeting okay have you done any research on the states that have mandated a 10-point scale yes um and what what did they site as the benefits as why they you know some of the things that um some of the some of the states have gotten a little bit crafty you know when a state makes the change the one thing that they automatically Ure is uh reliability and validity because everyone's under the same measure one of the states as I understand it Tracy had just actually sent me an article on South Carolina a lot of people V have referenced South Carolina and South Carolina is interesting I have to look at it again but from what I could see they say that they went to this flat 10o scale we're in '90s and a and 100s and a right or 99s and a but the devil's in the details there because when they crosswalk the scale into the 4.0 a 97 is worth more quality points than like a 92 which is almost I don't want to say sneaky but it it may Mak you believe that like oh it's a flat 10 it's the same you're not going to have any compression 97 is the same as 91 and it is on the letter but when they put the number there and they wait the GPA they have an adjustment that's essentially the same thing as a as a a scale where every number has a different numerical consequence for lack of a better phrase right where in traditional scals whether they're 10 points or seven points or plus minus there's banding that occurs so right now hand 95 uh excuse me 93 to 100 it's banded um but in South Carolina scale although they say flat 10 it to me look at it again um but they there's less Banning um than than than would suggest the opposite approach you take a look at it as well I'd be interested in your thoughts on that thank you um emissions very greatly so even though high ranking University staff say no that they're not going to you know discount our students based on the GP and the grading scale do you trust that every admission counselor is going to follow that logic and do you think that high ring University officials have a stake in the game because if they tell us that our students are going to be hindered our students may not apply to their schools and it's going to you know bring their stats down um so I guess what I'm really asking is do you think that that measure of data comes from a a reliable source based on those factors that that's one of the reasons that we talk to the highest ranking admission officer that we could um there probably are other factors in admissions that have nothing to do with grades right um colleges are a business right and you know uh they're very well aware demographically of zip codes and which kids are coming from different communities and in some communities some students you know will require the fast per form will look different than others and you're really not allowed to look at the fast for form before you decide on admissions it's against the law but these University admissions officers and counselors absolutely know the zip codes where kids parents can afford to write a check in full and I think unfortunately my opinion would be I no research to back this up just in my conversation with folks I think that that may factor in I agree with you 100% I do think that does Factor it unfortunately and just one comment about parent education because I did attend the had in Township um college night yesterday and one of the things that was kind of pressed Upon Us was when you're in Naviance and you're looking at schools you should look at your child's GPA and where it falls on their the GPA average of the the school so I just want to bring that up because if you're on a course to try to like correct or you know help parents understand I don't know that that helps us I think it's a good point and I think one of the things that the board has discussed and suggestion that we made and and one of the things we're looking at is I think right now we wait through their junior year before we give them their GPA you know maybe we maybe communicate GP a littleit early in the process there may be pros and cons to that but that's something that it's worth considering thank you for answering my question okay thank you good evening um had a question referenc back to your presentation the conversations with the admissions officers and you know I see the list here did any of the admissions officers with whom you spoke offer separate acceptance rates for students coming from schools with 10 point grading scales versus schools with seven point grading scales separate acceptance R well it seems that they're advising you to stick with the scal that we have at least that's what was implied none of them advis us to change that's correct well I know I'm sure they're going to be careful about that but the question is that they offer any data to support the acceptance rates and you know a judgment on the Merit of a seven points scale they didn't okay who Miss Miss okay you might consider asking that question what I got from the presentation maybe I'm interpreting it in a different way was that they were telling you to keep doing what you're doing you're on the right track uh stick with the seven-point scale I think if they're going to be giving that kind of advice they should probably have some data to support whether or not it's harming students in terms of lower initi just my comment um separate uh second uh question and comment is you had a slide related to the first choice schools you referenced a student indicating that this is a great place to be for the school things are getting better um I don't know what better looks like but it's great to see the kids are getting into their first choice goals does headen Township High School keep data on the acceptance rates of First Choice First Choice admissions acceptance for for students we we do keep we collect information on this yeah is that sharable data you know I mean the reason for the question I understand some of this information is personal confidential but it would suggest again the suggestion in the presentation is that more kids now are getting into their first choice School than in previous years this scale has been in place for a long time that trend line is changing it would be interesting to dig in and understand why I didn't mean to suggest that more kids are getting in now from it from the anec you sh that's having the question answer let me clarify I'm just sharing the schools that are comp between 23 and 24 right um I think we probably had kids get into some great schools similar rat in previous years uh so for dist I co but any information that uh is legally uh available for us to be able to share it you you have to share it great no I appreciate that and a Rel question to that slide and and the schools again great quality schools there great to see students getting into their first choice um if it is better and I understand that that was offered up as an opinion um do you attribute that to the 7p point grading scale that we have you think that the profile the school and the acceptance rates are improving because of the scale that we have in place I think I think I think you so a couple things what do I attribute to so the first thing is students previously you know have done well in some of those places okay so I think that and toship reputation because of how previous students have performed is a factor in that okay how students perform here not only academically because everyone's wrapped up in GK that's what we're talking about tonight but there's like nine more things that schools look at and in fact one of the things that we looked at in December were two students um that both applied to the same college and one had a higher GPA than another and the one with the higher GPA was rejected and the one with the lower GPA was admitted so that's an example same student from the same school in the same scale and the lower achiever was able to get in because there was something else out side of the GPA Arena that that student had that was admitted um so no I don't attribute it to uh only the scale I attributed to body of Education that our students get here perform Next Level the um achievement of the individual student and also um the progress that students make from freshman year to senior year and all the other things that had of school district allows and permits and provides and empowers students to do while there a student here we don't pigeon hole kids right the same kid that's a high achiever or you know does well in academics he's on the soccer field he kid leaves the soccer field and he goes and plays the saxophone in the concert right and and all that holistic commitment to whole child education absolutely coms just one more uh I want to be I want to yield time to other people if you have more questions but just one more going back to um a comment and it's related to a question Barbara asked about univers colleges and universities looking at students competing against themselves within the school or being compared to as opposed to being compared to other students can you provide some clar that's confusing to me because it suggests I mean what if one student is applying to Princeton who are they being comped against the our our school profile our school profile be an expert on our school our AP classes our scale our curriculum the the the the the missions officer needs to become an expert in that case on and you're contending based upon what you're hearing from the schools that these schools are not comparing us to neighboring districts like that when it comes to GTAA absolutely not but when it comes to overall per I don't think the two applications are being compared they're being compared within the context of the environment that the student learning because it's not just us and the district down the street it's us the district across the country or in Florida exactly in Sp understood yeah well that's there's a competitive set and it goes beyond the individual school which is really what I was trying to get to so I think you're helping me through my point just just I'm going to time I don't want to take any more time I would just say that just the last part of the comment I participated in an alumni admissions program for about a decade after I graduated from college and that was not the experience we were comparing the University was comparing the students that were applying the kids from other districts I mean it it was very clear in that process that they were looking and I think we all realized that certain schools have relationships with certain universities and that becomes something of a Peter system and that's part of the competitive section I think we're making each other's point I agree with you that that comparison does happen that's why they need to be an expert on the school profile earlier in my presentation it said the school profile is the gold mine of information because that's what help University admissions director compare had C High School to other high schools but when it gets down to the actual student level at the GPA granular level I don't believe those two gpas are being compared because they're being measured in in a different scale all across the country this is just not 7 verse 10 this is 7 verse 10 verse pure narrative verse a toz so the rigor of our curriculum and the offerings that we have and the amount of AP classes that we offer and how our students are privilege previously performed it's all part of the school profile so there is a comparison just not at the level that is GPA student individual student if your experiences are different than that I'd love to meet you did i' love the learn yeah and so the suggestion is the 7p point scale compensates for a lower school profile for for our district is that is that the implication 7 point scale is that for our students to achieve certain efforts that it's a it's a more reg stand it's helping to raise the profile it's part of our profile as part of the RoR of our gr system yes thank you can I ask a question clarification in your experience when you believe that Vis officers compare one school to the next which I haven't heard from one person I SP spoken when I've done over 60 hours of This research which of the 150 some odd uh you know States outside the country Al I've spoken to so many college universities that say we get applications from all 50 states and then dozens upon dozens of countries outside there how would they know which ones to compare to they're not it's it's physically impossible so when they tell me we can't do that here because of these things I say that makes sense to me you're saying something else entirely so I need to know and I understand my experience as anecdotal I'm in it's not the education buiness II to your no no I wanted I want that's why I because I got these 33 some my folks in highed telling me something entirely different than what you're sharing experience is dat again this is years years back but I went to Georgetown University I interviewed kids for a decade I would rarely see students from hat Township High and when they applied they didn't get in every year I get three to five applications from Hatfield Memorial another three to five from St Joe's and some of those kids were always getting it so that that says something about the competitive set and how they're feeling says something about not a whole lot it says that those five that five gets in from Penfield or any other neighborhood school as opposed to zero or one from P Township you then have to go back in time and look at those applications and say what did these missions officers focus on I'm going tell you time and time again it's not solely the GPA it's contextualized yeah and I'm certainly not saying it's solely the GPA I would say you know going back that far to my knowledge we had a 7po grading scale in place and the r and you know didn't improve the outcomes if that's what we're after we've always had the same scales I've been here 30 years it's always been the same scales and the 8 point scale I'm not saying and I don't think drar it either I don't know what was Lost in Translation but it's not that the kids he showed up there in 23 24 class are getting the better schools he was just demonstrating the same schools and I can tell you because I've been here longer than anybody the same types of schools year and year out so nothing's really changed that's been part of our profile and that's one that heads up getting some folks from all kinds of schools coupon schools or highly selected schools saying be careful what you wish for you make a change you procure some of that extra money for some folks you get it but then you're going to raise the flag and then you're going to change how we see you that's the consensus I appreciate the question Nicole Nicole you been you first one of your hands up I'm Sor wait for a long time okay so I have one first thing is just a statement I mean you're welcome to obviously comment on it but I have and I shared this with you in person I have real concerns that the first step in this process is the administrators making a recommendation when at least one of the at least one of the administrators has made abundantly clear to multiple parents that they have no intention of making a change so that's first just a comment and then my second is a question about the velur so I it's a genuine question when we look at that I look at that and I see that makes sense for our socioeconomic category I would assume that other towns with a similar socioeconomic and a socio in the same category would have a similar bell curve so you're welcome to comment on that that's what I see so I can't imagine that the ne districts have anything that's all that different from us and they've still managed to go to a 10 point all right I take the second one first I I I do have confidence for Ministry 18 to recommend changes to actually solve the problem that as I framed it at the end of the confidence in my administrative team take a first stab at that and to be openminded okay uh as far as the second question about the curve and what my expectation would be I'm glad that our kids are slaying to the right and I'm not surprised because we're we're solid we're we high students and parents that care about education the problem just isn't about I had another slide and I cut it the problem just isn't about where the clustering lies on the graph the problem is about when students become all known as the same right where there's no ability for universities to distinguish between Elite and excellent y I understand or excellent and good so regardless of of that right we need to be able to help our Elite students and and our excellent students and our good students be known for what they are and by going to a flat 10 they would all many of them would be condensed and that has happened um that happened Prett dramatically in districts that are very close to uh time Township and again I'm not want to say any names but it's happened in a way that has concerned High School administrators and local superintendant but yeah I mean I'm not advocating for flat 10 I would advocate for for plus minus if I had advocate for anything but I understand that and that's why I'm saying like if it causes this compression then I'm left to assume that all the need districts have the same compression because I'm going to guess that bell curve looks really similar well well I will tell you that a lot of districts have done away with class rank okay got have made that have made this change Mike sorry but I'm okay so the one thing I wanted to point out that was missing from the presentation that was brought up earlier particular with the gagher is the dual enrollment at cam County College where you get college credit y if you get a be or better so our definition of a b you're at a Township is different and that cost of college it might be more significant even than some of the meric money so uh that's I want to make sure that's part of the consideration moving forward so my I did talk with the president the County College um her name is LEL she's a former colleague of mine you talked briefly about it she indicated to me that changes were were going that they're considering changes to that she understood the problem I texted her a few days ago and asked her for another conversation before tonight so I wanted to discuss that and we have not been able to align schedules but that that is certainly an area that I will follow up on and let you know about I appreciate you raising it y that's all I got hi um I just wanted to First say that I actually for a year was an admissions interviewer for my alma moer University of Pennsylvania for my grad program and I can tell you firsthand experience we do not have the time to be an expert on every international national college um where students are coming from so I think I think what I came to this meeting with an open mind I don't have any high school students I have um my sixth graders is my oldest and I would say that what I'm hearing is an argument that compressing that top 12% into a larger percentage of our students um would hurt that top 12% more than changing the scale would help students in that midsection get into colleges and afford colleges and I just I don't think that the handouts tonight if you know and it's not the top 12% or 25% of our kids so I guess what I'm saying though is if we're equitably looking at the entire student population I don't know where my three kids are going to fall on that Spectrum yeah but I I do think that it's valid that it matters more on the whole that students get into any colleges and can afford to go to those colleges then we have the top whatever percent getting into 5 institution I don't want to interrupt you go ahead I'm sorry um so the last thing I want to do is pck parents against parents right but that's not the role superintendent by do to unite everyone right but according to the data that we have it's again it was only it was 12 students going to those I think 22 schools that did not rec captured the GPA um but many more of the students went to that not that category that point I'm sorry I was but I want to make I want to direct this to you but you made point I don't want you to hear because you're as Bob he might not know like I do you're make a point this affects the admissions and the rigor and the profile affects all the students it's not 12% 25% top the class bottom that's a theoretical argument we don't have data on that so no one is able to give us data on some theoretical idea that an admissions officer like I worked in that role um theoretically sees our profile and thinks that it's more rigorous and accepts those students we we can't find that data we do have data on students who have missed out on scholarship opportunities that's just the facts so um my other point was that my middle schooler um I said I have a sixth grader this is his first year with grades ever and there have been multiple multiple assessments given where there were so few questions on the assessment that one wrong answer gave him a 92 what message are we sending students that Perfection is all that we gets an a um and and my my actual question that was a statement is is there some standard of minimum assessments given for marking period so that one wrong answer does not impact an entire marking period grade yeah there probably should be yeah I think we do at different levels especially middle school high school can you go back and repeat what happened on the elementary test the test yeah I brought examples if you want to see the test so what was that how many questions were on the test so there are multiple examples um one had 11 okay so just give me that one so you have 11 questions and one had eight what's that one had eight okay so either one right so the one with eight questions uh your child got one wrong yes was the was it did the teacher convert to a percentage on that paper no okay so that's that's what we train them to do right we train them to just put the fraction so it's not uh four out of 580 oh I'm sorry no so they have both the fraction and a percentage and 92 okay so my advice would be and I do not want to know who the teacher is my advice would be to I'm not call is to not put that percentage until you have a certain minimum number of points so in those examples there was one assessment for markting period yeah I I I would agree with you that there should be multiple measures as part of a marketing the cve and I think we get better at that as we uh go up grade level especially middle school I know that there was a minimum number certainly I know we monitor that at the high school level our department show in principle I agre yeah and I think just like speaking to the point that um Lauren deals made is I you know having a child come from never receiving grades to the system has been challenging um mental health emotional it's been hard and I think a point that you made in your presentation is that um colleges are looking at Haden Township students who were in their college and how they're doing and I think we can't discount that our students need to be mentally sound going into college and they can't feel so stressed about trying to get into college that then they can't be successful so that that's that's my main concern thank you Mr Parker um my question is going through a lot of transcripts from schools and a lot of um School profiles I haven't come across any besides time contship that have just one um grading scale like the 4.0 grading scale they have a 4.0 unless they're numerical you know like on 100 or what um I'm it's a little muddy for me where like with the bell curve are all our the districts GPA figured on the same formula or is there a 4.0 formula and the weighted formula that for for our high school yes it's all the same algorithm but for AP classes um there's a weight I'm I'm aware of that okay so what's the question um so there aren't two like every school has two except for hide Township they have um like a 4.0 which is your base and then they have a weighted which would be five six some of them get you know ridiculous um I guess my concern is this yeah um when you're factoring in those weed classes and you are only doing one form of calculation um there are a good number of schools out there that will use a 4.0 scale or the weighted scale depending and if they use the 4.0 scale what can happen is someone say takes um math uh as honors like that's their right and they take honors math two years and then I guess now it's an AP junior year so that three years they have an honors and they get maybe a b y okay yep um all their other grades are a yep their GPA is going to be a four if if you get that plus one if waiting for that's correct right so when you're putting them out there in the world you're putting them out there in the world against kids with real for .0 gpas um where those weighted A's are actually still threes and then there's a weighted scale okay um it it really muddies the waters for heading Township students and it would I think change the course of the Bell okay would you mind like making an appointment to explain that to me or sending me that writing I I can't get it in my head right now but I'm happy to give you take your feedback and okay right we have a student back somebody in the back I think has been yeah there you go thank you uh camon High School junr uh when I was trying to calculate my GPA sophomore year I emailed my counselor for like some clarity as to what the formula or algorithm is for the calculation she only sent me back my GPA at that time and then at the end of my sophomore year of course I got the GPA posted on Oban which inevitably uh took me out of consideration for had of Honor Society and I missed it by a thousands of a decimal so yeah stinks a little but uh the rounding era exactly but can I get some clarification or at least like a little Clarity on the uh algorithm or formula itself yeah we yes cuz after uh that happened I went on the had touch website with one of my parents and did a deep live and there was nothing on it listen we need to do better there communicating algorithms with students parents uh earlier on in a clearer way that's on my shoulders I take responsibility for that I think it's a really good algorithm but we need to be more proactive and helping students understand it parents understanding it and I just admited tonight this is first year since my fourth year this is the first year that I was actually really a superintendent of schools to have a crystal clear understanding of what it was and why it's good uh but even I'm not at a comfort level with it but I'm able to explain it tonight but if I can if you'll accept an IOU for me tonight I promise you that um in the next short amount of time I'll be able to help do better in that area for you all right thank you thank you for coming tonight um I had a junior and a fifth grader in headship we moved here about six years ago for the school system however uh in looking at all the websites there really needs to be more transparency um it doesn't say anywhere that it's an 8 raing scale we mve here for this but now I feel like junior is being held back these are also Co kids these are kids that have to teach themselves at home I think that you need to like let us know what their GPA is ahead of time I was what sophomore year I'm begging I'm asking I'm being told I have to calculate it myself like but I don't know the algorithm for it now he use out of contention for quite a few schools so now I have fifth grader going into sixth grade the class behind him is like double are you guys considering the fact that had Township is just blowing up with kids right now like your graduating class isn't going to be the same I'm sorry can you like are you taking into consider like you're going to have a lot more kids I hope we do cuz right now we're down six kids Our Moment is we just looked at it's six kids neighb every 6 months and they have listen the magic number here is we need 2100 kids we need need 2100 kids to make a case for continued state aid we're six short ter right so we don't have D that says our enrollment is increas we would we want to do right Elementary has two kindergarten classes instead of the one that my son was in yeah no I know strawberry Sky both had too I know we did because we did some redistribution of boundary lines and I again but I didn't want to inter what I'm looking for is more transparency for because now my son's Junior okay fine like we we get what we get that area but I got another kid coming so I would really like a lot more transparency from the school from here on out I think accepted than I just have a quick question for you mentioned Santa CLA in your presentation there's a guy quoting the book on that page and you have that hand out I do but the book was written in 2019 enrollment admissions are not 3,000 it was ,000 last year to that exact school what consideration has everyone taken into the gate because there's a gate you're talking to the admissions counselors these kids have already gotten through that game Michigan had 63,000 applications last year they're not sitting there going oh wait right hot in Township they're not even getting through that gate to be considered and it's all based on that number from my understanding tell me how okay tell me the part that I'm missing I don't think I don't think we called Michigan right I call Michigan to see exactly how it works have 41,000 I think in that quote schools not 3,000 students 3,00 applications in that quote he said I look at 3,000 applic no from 3,000 different School 3,000 different schools yes right I get it but my point is 63,000 18,000 they're not looking at all of those kids individually they're there's got to get food that they have to get through before they even get to the admission Council they are not becoming an expert on 63,000 students they're supposed to and theyve assured us that they're looking at the school profile as the gold M of information in every student's application is considered whether they go to hand toship or School in California or another country I think the 3,000 com that was the amount of environments that school environments that kids come from 3,00 different systems sure no I understand that but you're again referencing the book that was published in 2019 and applications have increased 41% since then so I'm just concerned because there's no they can't employ enough people to look at 63,000 applications that quickly um and my other just comment or question is are you know I I'll say happfield um did their school profile drop when they went to ATT 10 point scale I I really do want to know that question as well I listen I I'm not going to talk about another District I I will tell you that 2019 this book was recommended to me it's one of the most recent things I could find I just didn't look at this book I looked at other resources too in this folder I have 14 peer-reviewed uh published articles um on grades and the effect that they have student achievement and it's not they'll take a side right in terms of 710 it's all contextual it's all based on how students are performing and what the actual context looks like that they're in and colleges learn about the student and the context before they make aion's decision everyone's saying the same thing I can't tell any anybody to tell me that's not happening no I understand that put me I'm just trying to understand the process I have a child who graduated already and I went through process with him last year from a different school I have a junior now the experiences I've had at those two different schools are exponential um I understood everything every step of the way how things were done how to do things um I feel like I'm doing aervice honestly to M junr because we barely talk about college um at this point he's going to see them he's doing things but he's not as I'm not as informed this time around and this was a year difference look I call me bur out at this point because one advertisement stopped for one kid and another started for another but was your first shot having pass graduate or you came from no he went I took he went pass okay what can I do to help you with your second child um just just help me understand how it's an equitable process across the board when there's this amount of people applying it's different than when we were younger we had to go to the mailbox we had to write out the say it's not even just the Comon app it's the fact that they can literally click click click click oh look I've applied to 20 schools today like listen it's crazy you if you want to take this whole book home tonight you can have the whole thing right it's not to help you understand a nutshell it's it's much more than just GPA schools are responsible for knowing everything about the child and and the to I totally he it's just the game I just want to know about the gate how did they get to even be red because from my experience and I've been told there is a marker and if they get through that first marker that they have set in that electronic system it's like applying for a job right you got to hide words in I'm confident in saying that marker is not a a GPA number I'm confident enough to say it's not so that's why I need help understanding what those markers are because I I need to be able to help and I can't if I don't know those markers and have you considered that it might be a holistic uh scoring people well remember the bigger the university the bigger the admissions to you too right yeah for sure for sure um but that's neither here nor there I'm not going to go on I just I feel like we're overlooking the gate because there is one to get her before you get to that can I can I just talk about the gate Christoper okay um I also like Barbara was at that in uh College adiss the our Cel were there on this this we she uh specifically addressed Ruckers University she said the admission process for Ruckers they do not accept our profile they don't look at our profile you can't even submit our profile so you spoke with Katie Burns ad Mission counselor at rter I will ask you to go back to Katie birds and say how are you screaming that if you are not you say the gold standard is looking at a student profile Ruckers does not look at the student profile Miss Campbell said there is absolutely no means to submit our profile to record something's Lost in Translation I'll find out and get back something to add on to it though I mean there's 41,000 applicant director of University if they had 100 100 counselors 100 which they don't have but let's say they do and there's 632 hours from September to April or September 1st to April 1st that means they have to review 6 and2 applicants per hour that's if they have a 100 to what you say they do it's not possible it is not possible that simple math 100 said that the adiss process for we one at a time one at a time man one at a time please I was going to ask you in a form of a question and I can go back to that is have you asked the admissions counselors uh how many s can you repeat I'm just asking you to repeat what you just said about 100 CS I lost a m okay so I mean 41,000 applicants 41,000 applicants to Ruck University yes if they had 100 admission couns right so they each EMP review 4,100 applications okay if they're doing it over what period of time so over 5 months or 600 32 hours that's what working days is 40 hours a week they would have to review 6 and 1 12 applicants per hour okay so you know the question I think we should be asking is how many admission staff members do they have so we can see we can kind of check the logic of oh we man I know all about that inen they don't they don't have theod and and and go from there and then the asking of the question I I I I wrote to my wife here like how can I ask this nicely and I I mean this with all due respect if I'm going to say this and I'm sorry in advance you're asking the admissions counselor the same question I'm about to ask you oh wait let me let me use the wording because it's in the negative it says does Haden Township or Mr Ferris uh do you look at every one of our students as just a number what's your answer no right if we ask all the superintendent that question what are they going to say right the truth a resounding Noth it will be a resounding no right so are you yeah hi so um I really like the way you looked at this by saying like what is the problem we're trying to solve and you know my family and I are relatively new to having my kids have been in other schools in New Jersey and I do different 10 point District in New Jersey and to me the problem were trying to solve is like how do we put our kids on even footing at Baseline uh so that there's not like a profile that has to be reviewed some like barrier that has to be jumped over and you know I would Echo what was said you know I interview not at the undergraduate level but at like for undergrad to get into your grad program I spend maybe 5 10 minutes right I'm not looking at any of that so I would you know I would wonder like are there other people involved in this process other than the admission information that I uh became aware of is there's like a regional depending on school they have like a regional expert so that help the hand in the green green sweater hi my name is um this is not that as relevant for most of the kids but some of the children in headship are going to apply abroad my son is going to apply abroad and um I don't think that all colleges or universities abroad are going to look up a school profile what they will do is to Google what is what what does an a mean in America and what they're going to find is that the average is somewhere between 90 and 100 and that is a huge disadvantage I do think that it's probably beneficial to start looking at what does the transcript look like and how much information can you put on up what the algorithm is what is a weighted score right now I I haven't seen many had in Township transcripts because my son is a sophomore but the one that I have seen on Facebook thank you for share that it wasn't very informative so I think that as far as process goes in addition to educating parents you also have to kind of educate the people that don't hold expertise in having Township because it's a little nabal gazing thank you I I think I agree with some of that and uh I think more information on a transcript may be helpful maybe less information on a transcript uh could be helpful I think it depends on who you ask but certainly something that we would look at right um but thank you for the comments m c uh first the comment and and that's if the algorithm is too hard for the superintendent of schools to understand without an intense tutorial maybe it's time to reconsider an algorithm it should be accessible um for parents of any education level right so we should and students too right we shouldn't have such a complex formula there certainly math is a wonderful thing and I'm sure there's many different ways to get to that point but we could use one that's easily understandable by all of us here in h Township um my next question is about the data so I work in clinical research I read research reports for a living and I also do monitoring and auding auditing of uh clinical trials and data collection so my first question is when was this data collected the data that you referenced in in your slides when was the data collected which over Slide the data from from oh that was collected over the last uh 2 months collected over the last two months and you said it was collected by the administration so who in administration was collecting the DAT mrri so was all done by Mr O'Brian in the last three months September okay so how was the data recorded was the data recorded in written form yeah I took notes and then I said so is that data available for to be searchable by us I had so is it available and searchable by us I summarized the data in the presentation of my talking points tonight that's what we're releasing tonight we did we did not share you did not share correct me I'm wrong Gary but did not share that we were going to individually share quotes or information from specific schools or individuals with those Folks at the time the information was gathered so we do not we should not be sharing that with f say typically well I would say this is not a summary um but typically when you're doing a survey that's done you know it's usually in writing was there a reason you didn't use a survey instrument like uh Survey Monkey qual check or anything like that why did you choose because I thought a conversation would be more meaningful than having just send it out and see who decides to respond and who doesn't and not having any control of who I speak to when I got on the phone I immediately asked for the director or the dean associate director somebody rather than an entry level uh admissions officer which no disrespect me to them but I just wanted somebody a little more experienced and a little more Authority so that's why I did it and I asked the same question I read it out for BA them to each one I have them all here I don't mind reading po well up note to that I just Googled Katy Burns who is you have her listed here for ruers new new brunck she is a junior admissions counselor yeah Kati Katie Burns and Kon from Ruckers are two of the three who were not direct director level they uh I have I can read quoty I can read others but I don't all here here the notes Here typed out I didn't cut anything out I put it all down and present it to the board in December uh including a stop in who basically eight of our students that were the highest number of students last year went to a quote unquote fromon school and stopped and said yes we Auto we offer automatic americ scholarship in addition to other Amic scholarships that's question you do Mr I said well then folks like that you think we should change to procure that and they said be careful what you wish for because I'm paraphrasing now I can find a read if you want you could your the profile so these are contemporaneous notes based on your recollection no or you did audio recordings of I wrote them lot and I don't and I don't quote anybody if it's if I if the it's a paraphrase but I can't keep up I ask him to ree I tell him I'm taking notes and I ask him to Miss I SP and they say yes did you use any systematic way to evaluate the data that you collected you like coding or it's all anecdotal okay so you just have a summary of anecdotal I would the first question asked um in regards to the algorithm right it's not so complicated that I couldn't understand this is the first View and this started to come up I asked to have an explanation of it there's one complicated piece and the complicated piece has has to do with the change in number of the denominator and there's an easy way to do it that's not as good it's not it's in my opinion okay the the the complicated Way by changing the number on the bottom what it does is two things it allows for students that have high GPA to take elective classes that don't offers honors or AP so if you're a 4.2 and you're seven in your class what incentive would you have to take an elec of because the highest you could get in that class would be an a4l that would bring the GPA down to penalize the kid none of those students that are high would they all be taking study halls right and wa one second so to prevent that we changed the denominator the other way around that would be able to tell the elective teacher that schools do this that your class doesn't count for the kids GPA so you have three ways to do it the way that we do it which I think is the best not the easiest understand not count the elected at all towards the kids GPA or have a system that actually allows an a student that's above a 40 25% of our kids to be brought down by in elective class so that's that's where we are on now did I miss anything I would say that anytime any time of formula has things like sigas in it it's already immediately going to be uh you know disenfranchising to you know groups of of people right so what's the incentive for my sophomore to take AP classes after their experience watching their sibling get 92s and B's and only get three points for their AP classes learning not enough and there is a there is a BM for uh when you take an AP class you get a for you get a same as honor but again again that students getting credit for completing an AP class with a particular grade with other students in the same system that chose not to take those class and that's also c as many other parents have mentioned there is a g to get in and it's same if you were say applying for a new job at a superintendent somewhere maybe you're going through uh LinkedIn or something there's a gate and it's based on keywords right so you can't they're not going to look at 20,000 applications they're going to filter the applications that best suit their needs right so colleges do the same thing and they use the comn to do that and they're looking at GPA and sat or act School and that's their filter okay so just to go back to the a question about that what about schools that have like a 7.0 GPA or 15 I've never heard of such a school and I think you know based on your statement we maybe we shouldn't be you know comparing School District to school district but since we're going there I would say that P Township ranks I think it's 215 out of 399 for schools based on the US News and World reports rankings what metrics the US News and World reports metrics I don't have metrics off hand but you could Google it um after the meeting I'm sure so if we're 2115 out of 399 and 100 Regional High School is 57 and they use a 10-point scale but we use a seven-point scale how are we winning because they don't use SC plusus we SC and I think this guy actually well I would just can I just finish my thought with your survey question is I don't know um who evaluated it but it's biased in several different directions so when you ask the question well it's loaded and it's double barrel and it's leading so in three different dimensions the question that you asked is not going to elicit data that right what I wanted from them was you got what you wanted specific I asked a question that was being asked of the community community was saying we're being disadvantaged so I turn key that to those holks and said are we being disadvantaged and then have the more folks some folks stay home with you 35 40 minutes or so and then I could ask them more questions about hey should we change I have neighborhood schools around us who are doing this and and I know there's a trend nationally that some schools are moving to Temples should we just get on board so you asked more than the you only listed two questions follow no that's the that's the first question that everybody got depending on who wanted to give me more of their time I would ask them more questions to make sure I wasn't missing anything because I went into this saying the first time I did this was almost 20 years ago I did it then five or six years after that then the third time 2017 then 7 years I thought maybe some things change so chance any of this research is predate the last 3 months but this is this is all this is um all right y'all we are over time I do want to yeah we do have another public comment section at the end of this meeting and so folks are invited to be part of that and make a comment during that time uh during that will be held to the standards with the public comment I I do want to say U just can I just say one thing before we end about the middle schoolers can we how can we help them they're so dis not all of them but to your point they're they're discouraged going into it with the small tests and they're they're like I get one wrong and and and I'm done and I'm not going to college I'm not doing this this is going to be it's just the like the tone is already set yeah it's not it's not a positive tone and with the seven points not helping it I think we can look at the minimum number of St to set in terms of the number of assments that should actually be prior to I think that's something wor discussion I think they're struggling like with their emotions yeah there's a lot especially with middle schoolers before we s right board um I just I just want to say thank coming talking to this the whole public comment section I know that last few months that I shortly um while communicating I do say out okay uh for you know not easy last coule months right but we have learned a lot of information right where you say of they have different from how I feel or how many feel but I now would like to invite you back in uh me uh to discuss how you feel and we do have puzzle that we're trying to solve but it's strange a little bit different you know so by no means uh you know is there any type of ill will or you know uh we like we want to do in the best interest of our kids and they have different ideas of what that is but iite you dialog people you got to continue sure and it's not just us it's everybody here we were we were speaking for everybody here not just for us but we're open to dialogue for sure take five minutes can I get a motion to approve item 7.2 through 7.15 any questions from the board roll M Bley yesie Mr kend Mr yes yes yes before we move on to the next section I just want to highlight for folks on 711 and 714 there has been a um shift in the rates for parents I know that that's something that is kind of Highly anticipated and waited upon for summer wreck as well as for preschool so for those who are present and have been looking for those rates to come out I just want to make sure that they know that that was publicly approved thank you rman moving into Section 8 instruction and program Mrs Billingsley uh you did not have a committee meeting this month but anything you'd like to share No upate at this point all right uh we have no items to approve in that section moving into section nine Personnel Mr brodman you have a committee update you Mr sh yes so our committee met this month you will see um a policy as well as a regulation guide on her first reading in response to a change in state statute regarding the education of homeless children um and then also following up on last month you will see one policy um on for second reading related to religion in the schools as I noted during the work session we did pull a couple of things that were on first reading previously just to make sure that the other policies were were aligned great thank you can I get a motion to approve items 9.2 through 9.20 second any questions all in favor oh sorry roll call roll call yes Mr Kendall yes Mr Le Mr Richie M Rodman yes M yes William yes we do have a retirement resolution that Mrs Des is going to read March 21st 2024 resolution whereas Barbara Bacher guidance office secretary in Pon Township School District Pon Township New Jersey has for the past 19 years been dedicated to the board of education and hen Township and has served as a loyal coworker and whereas the said Miss feter has aely represented the Hatten Township Board of Education in her roles as Middle School worker SL Aid and guidance office secretary be it resolved that the Hat Township Board of Education recognizes the excellent and dedicated service that his feter has rendered the said Township of Haden and the said Board of Education as well as the services rendered to her many co-workers over the past 19 years and that the said board of education does sincerely appreciate her efforts in their behalf and also in behalf of all the students of had in Township and therefore be it further resolved that a copy of this resolution be spread upon the minutes of this meeting and a copy be presented to M moving into section 10 student services and activities can I get a motion to approve items 10.1 through 10.11 okay any questions I just want to make sure that we receive additional Clarity on 10.5 before it moves the second reading at the next meeting roll call M B yes M Desi yes Mr Kendall yes Mr Le Mr Richie William yes moving into section 11 policy can I get a motion to approve item 11.2 any questions roll call Mr Mr Mr m r yes William yes yes okay moving into section 12 it's our public comment section so this is the final public comment section of the evening if you'd like to make a comment it can be on any item including items that were on tonight's agenda um please state your name and your address want you to make a comment and limit your remarks to 3 minutes hello I'm sanago uh I live at 345 Avendale Avenue um looking at the Bell curb I just had a thought it seemed like what you're saying draro is that 3.5 GPA and up is the majority of students and then there's like 25% in the 3.5 and below and they're more sort of the coupon School Merit school kids and these kids it's more about not condensing them and that's so so there're sort of contradicting things going on in terms of what's needed over here versus what's over there that assumes that everybody above a 3.5 is not looking at coupon schools and I would just say that that's not necessarily the case um my son would be in that 3.5 up um he definitely could be competitive for a very selective school but we're only having him apply to the comply schools just because we know that's where we're going to get merited so the so I would just say that rather than just looking at the GPA especially as College costs go up um and are surpassing inflation more and more parents don't care as much about their kid getting into the most selective school they can get into they care more about where they're going to get the Merit a um and just listening to this group and hearing everything that's going on I think some of this is what you said which is there's a priority around um getting into school and then there's a priority around paying for school and it's possible that the top kids are going to be affected if you have a 10-point scale in terms of getting into very selected schools but that's not a lot of kids and I I actually think that just what I hear is that I think the priorities more on the cost of college as opposed to getting into some of the most selective schools that's all I would just say just you can't assume with those 3.5 kids I don't care about the condensing I care about the money and I just think a lot of other people do too so that was just my one thing the other thing I would just say is be really thoughtful about how you get feedback after that first round because as you can see there's a lack of trust honestly um in guidance counseling to be honest and also in the administration and how things have gone over the last several years um with the school profile and everything else and I just think I think this was a great first step and I think you did a great job with your presentation and listening um I just think that how you involve people and that next step is going to be really important that's it thank you thank you K I'm sorry if you had your hand up in the back and I wasn't able to call I know we talked on the phone few Hi Megan 303 Cooper um I wanted to speak to one of the pieces that was brought up about how our students are doing that's the question that we want to ask right so I think that it is important to include some qualitative measures with that in terms of can we survey our student body and ask them if their course selection would have been any different if there were to be a different grading scale because I do strongly believe in and and listen my kids are young right I I I teach High School I've taught high school for a very long time my kids are little they will be going through hide and Township Schools my oldest will be starting kindergarten next year my concern is is that course selection piece based on anecdotally what I've seen with my own students would our students be choosing different courses if there a be was not an 85 or above and another um concern that I just wanted to bring up I have a a very good friend who is um very high up in the Admissions Office at a prestigious New England University and that friend of mine has said that their concern their biggest concern in reviewing our current grading scale would be the passing grade of a 70 and that in the Freshman applicants to their University um looking at their their grading breakdown um there are very very few schools in which a 70 is a passing grade most schools are looking at a 60 to a 65 being passing grade so I appreciate what you shared um you know saying that if if there are changes to be made it might not be a you know a 10 all throughout I do think that it is important that we are looking at that bigger scope and again you know yes we do need to serve those kids that are are you know earning the 3.5 and above we also need to serve the rest of our student body population as well um and and how are we ensuring that we are serving those kids equitably especially when it comes to that P fail piece at the bottom end so thank you thank you it's getting late I apologize Joe gallager 113 Lees Lane just a couple quick things I think it would be great idea to have the GPA from on the report card from the nth grade on I think that would be a wonderful idea um secondly thing thank you for looking into the K County transfer courses because that's very important and I know you said you wouldn't go back retro and change anybody these grades or transcripts um just to rethink that I would appreciate that because I mean transfer students who comeing in do they get recalculated from other Schools transfer student comes in under a different scale I'm not sure well do they get recalculated you're on a different grading so when they come in I think no I think whatever scho I'm sorry I'm not back that would be something I know you can't go back for but it's just that's something to take a look at because it's a fairness issue that students are coming from other schools coming in and they get recalculated based on their grades what they used to have their a because now it's a numerical score but they A's and MBS and C's that can easily happen I think that does happen so that's something before you think about recalculate that I thanks thank you thanks for your time thank you hi Tracy sunk at 27 Oriental Avenue I had a lot to say previously but as the night's gone on I kind of waned in my Approach and just kind of asking myself what are we doing here really um we're talking about this issue like it's so super complex and we're really making it complex in my opinion and rejecting the idea of changing the grading scale because it would condense and and make the top 12% of students look less attractive to Elite schools is a poor justification for holding fast to a policy that has demonstrably negative effects the impact of change would boost everybody's GPA actually and ultimately if the top 12% of students were slightly less elevated compared to their PE peers as a result of the change the positive impact far outweighs this perceived cost um as you can see I mean attendance is kind of fallen off as the night's gone on but there's mobilized support for change and what those of us advocated for change when to know is where is the equivalent or greater efficacy of maintaining the sex well where are those people we've heard from the superintendent and appreciate the time you put into this issue but we haven't really heard from members of the board on where they stand or anyone else standing in favor of the current system why is that what are the proponents you know where are they this current scale why is it that what seems so easy in so many other places and you got my email about what's going on in South Carolina that actually happened on a state level and so what I wanted to say to more people in the room is that there could be ad advocacy at a higher level which is there's a county superintendent office office and I'm pursuing them in the conversation about what we can do if we don't have recourse here and working with you all I understand you're putting together committee um I hope that you will engage us more in that because it would be fair to do so you represent especially the board the community's interest and just to highlight that this is the change that we all want that's why I'm getting up saying what are we doing here this is what your community wants there's a petition that was signed by everybody that I'll just present to you that should um attendance everybody here and what they desire and see is the best way forward In fairness and you ask how are our kids doing and so just to answer that point they're not doing as well as they could they could have higher GPA they could have less stress and they could have more accessibility to marit in college so not L enough thank you okay Alfred 782 West so grades are currency grad act as money in a bank account a gr point average is a measure of a student's ability to understand the material taught to him or her from a given curriculum what Haden Schools administration is doing under the perview of its board is deflating our currency the seven-point scale hurts our children's chances of getting into colleges short limits the opportunity in receiving scholarship and marit funds increases their mental stress and already Vol time of their teenage light and cost of money in dual credit coures at the High high school now it's because of these factors that I've mentioned that we've opted to enroll our son another at another local high school my son will instead be attending St J of Preparatory School in Philadelphia this fall the decision for our son not to attend the high school was very difficult he will not be able to attend high school with neighborhood friends from which he had built lasting relationships it's quite a sacrifice for him socially and mentally as well a financial bird that my wife and I plays on our but we see we have no further recourse in the light of the situation in which we are presented the prep measures their students on a 10o grade scale the change was made six years ago under advice of colleges and universities who told them that this would put their students on an even playing field with other high schools the prep was told by universities here locally and from around the country that a change would benefit their students it was as easy as that simply they changed it because it would benefit students the adaptation from the administration to meet changing practices is what we want for hadit of students the question became do we want our son in the school where admin pushes back not only what the community wants but gets but what experts are also supported now that the bond referendum has passed had and Township students will experience a new school the new turfield in the coming years why not start fresh by giving students something that will benefit benefit them in the long of their lives a new grading skill will give them choices choices and opportunities that they cannot enjoy under the old grading skill that are available to most high schools in and around the country thank you hi again Barbara Nasco West Boulevard um thank you guys again for the presentation and taking the time to engage with us uh there was definitely a lot that was answered on my part as well so I really appreciate it um and I know that we're talking about students aren't in a number right so I'm just going to share a little bit about my student with you guys because I also believe that my kids are not a number as well um so we moved to Township in 2020 um because of the community of the school district I bought a house on cuber Boulevard and IDE deal with traffic every day pulling out because I could afford it and I could actually get in this community and send my kids to a school that I knew was going to be good for them um and I have had by far positive experiences with teachers and administrators and we do love it here um so I'm a little surprised that there's not a little bit more of a databased research approach in this um topic that we're looking at and I just ask that we consider looking beyond the anecdotal and I I can understand the challenges with that as well but if we set up a committee and we start digging in maybe we'll be able to find some more research um I have a junior uh in hatat of high school at the end of her sophomore year her G 3.85 I had to um reach out to her guidance counselor to get her GPA so that she could um apply for a program at Row in the summer program that she was accepted into and had a great time doing um recalculating her her GPA on a 10p point scale would give her a 4.0 at that point um we recently spoke with an admissions counselor at school she's interested in stock in University like other people have said um we're looking for the most affordable education because um I don't I my family is immigrants and I don't have generational wealth and um you know I was in the military so I didn't make a ton of money but um that's what we're looking at so the admissions counselor said that they're looking at like a 3.9 for their top tier merit scholarship so I just share that information with the board for you guys to have again we've all heard different things from different people but I just want to relay you know some of the information we we experience um and I think another part of the problem is I don't know what her GPA is going to look like at the end of the year so I think that rolling GPA and the transparency are at Le seeing in every marketing period would also be helpful you know for her and for parents we feel a little bit more going a little blind into it um you know and specifically for my daughter I am a veteran of the US Marine Corps and her father as an active duty Soldier um so she will be offered unique scholarship opportunities as a military child um who supported my 9 years of service to this country um she attended four different elementary schools I think I talked about that last last session and um you know I don't know that these nonprofit organizations with these scholarships are going to recalculate for her so um I just wanted to share a little bit of you know my child so thank you man thank you for your service thank you hi uh Dana cor 401 ivywood um along the same lines as her comments about the outside scholarships I know sounds like we're digging our heels in as far as Admissions and not when to change our rigor and everything but don't lose sight of all the outside parties employers religious groups the alcaro girls basketball Club those types of scholarships are not looking at our school profile at all and as I said before in the last time I spoke I'll take 2550 100 500,000 whatever they could give us would be helpful and I wouldn't want other people to miss out on that either um I am slightly disappointed that I didn't realize the processes for a unilateral proposal I thought all of the board members you know I'm not used to coming to these meetings or how decisions are made but I thought with you know all your different viewpoints we might make some Headway with this but it seems like we have one person putting that proposal out which he's already said not open to the 10 points which is disappointing to me um so I hope you might reconsider um I don't really think our rigor is going to change I think Canfield's rigor in the outside world is strong as it always was 10 points eight points whatever I really don't think that's going to affect our Missions at all um as far as the rigor that everyone's been mentioning all night long but thank you thank you do I have 23 Emerald just want to close on my questions that I have Mr and why I was asking them and that is to establish what he did with not research so I think it's un fair you're doing service to um the highly intelligent and accomplished uh parents in this room who have done research and have documented their research and Mr O'Brien did and when we're looking at qualitative data qualitative data should be held to the same rigor as quantitative data right you can't just ask questions and just take some notes and then ask very cable questions and then not use any kind of uh discipline method to evaluate that information and it should be in a and if it's informing a decision at this level it should be in documented in a format that is accessible to any of the stakeholders to expand it um what uh Jerry and some other parents have put uh put together is you know pretty unbias and it's pretty star 80% of the school districts in New Jersey that use a A variation of T point scale 100 in Regional is a 10 point scale with a plus or minus variant so I even just a quick scan of this list I mentioned uh Katy Burns who is the junior admissions counselor but when I look at Janan Tom who's the University of Maryland she's the assistant director for international admissions so I guess you know her maybe that's why that's funny to you um and when I look up uh Dena Galler at University of Pittsburgh she's not an assistant director she's a regional admissions counselor for uh the Philadelphia and Delaware Counties so this this research is not thorough it's not complete and it's demonstrably inaccurate um I think we deserve to have the research that we've done and that we've collected about schools that aren't recalculating the uh our GPA about the schools that are using the 10 system uh to be given as much weight as the research the research done by Mr bran which does not see substantively differ from from the research that he did in 2016 or previous years uh I just wanted to express my kind of bewilderment about the statement that uh our students are being our students are being uh evaluated upon a mission against only the students from their school if I was recruiting a lineman say a football lineman I wouldn't be comparing his performance to the other lineman at his school I'd be comparing to all the linen around the country right and determining who I want to play on my football team I'm pretty sure the academic admissions are going the same way that they are comparing maybe at some point I can't even imagine why but they would be compared with other stons from our school but believe me they are being compared to students from other districts who are uh who use SC you hi again so I was raing my hand like that crazy class oh my God CH 113 I'm sorry CH I didn't see it's fine no no where worries I just want to talk about something because I've lived the process and extensively my daughter applied I think in the end 18 schools because we didn't visit any she has a unique situation wanted something unique so we just threw it all out there and I'm the person who applies for things that I've no business applying to I don't give a crap excuse me what it says the requirements are that's a good place for my kid then we're going to figure out how to get in there and I think I expressed that we did all desp of the grade scale I still firmly believe this grade scale needs to change it's it creates this inefficiency in the process that's insane I also want to say that I don't think we will ever prove either way with admissions how the GPA affects us like I know from Lily the big school she was tossed into a pile and deferred from her early process then she got in but she was tossed in that pile early cuz they waited for some bigger fish right better gpas better whatever but what happens in this process is I think it I I think if we're interviewing these directors of admissions we're actually sort of missing the point because those directors of admissions never saw her application it actually was like the Katie Burns they looked at her application so those are the places and if you read any of the literature it tells you even what you handed out talks about the admissions readers those are those are the people I want to know what they say about GPA because they're the ones who read it our topic was for her to set appointments with every admissions reader every school she applied to to talk to them about the GPA CU they've read it he didn't talk to the director of admissions he's going to say well this is our policy but what do those individual people do when they get their applications they have to have the process the last thing that I want to ask and I know you can't answer and I can send this as an email is I just had questions about some of the data and information you shared from the book because there wasn't a lot of like contrary opinion and I'm not saying that your information is wrong I just it feels suspect me that there's not contrary opinion like when I interview an oncology research who has this data I always ask well who would disagree with this so like that's missing for all of us like and we all disagree with it but who are like the admissions experts that disagree I think that's something that we want to hear and even if it's just two or one the contrary opinion I think it gives everyone a sense of security that this is like vetted and an alignment and my last point and go is to say Merit matters and we cannot fix the Merit situation with our scale without fixing our grade scale overall like it will become too convoluted like when we apply to like private scholarships I don't have an opportunity to ask them to recalculate there's a threshold if I don't need it like you're not applying if you don't need it you're not in you can't apply at all so we it's like we have to fix it all we can't just fix oh like here's this convoluted way we make sure kids can get Merit like we can't and then oh my final thing I forgot I'm so sorry is I know you said you wouldn't change things R so actively but P line from the Administration has been well the schools will recalculate so you're asking kids to have their GPA recalculated you're not going to change them retroactively it doesn't make any sense it's too complicated thanks thank you k m 900 B um I'm in a little bit of a unique situation I guess because I have um a daughter who's a sophomore in college and a senior um and interestingly enough if you know them their profile is virtually the same they danc they were on the dance team they were captain of the dance team they worked at the dance studio they were in the dance ensemble in the musicals their difference is their GPA my oldest had over a 4.0 and my middle has a 3.87 I think somewhere 3.8 is um they applied to the same schools and their Merit money was different Merit money is based on GPA whether it's coupon or Not coupon it's Merit it's scholarship it's based on their academic record so I believe in my whole heart based on our own little experiment over here that the Merit money is the Difference Maker and I think it is while important for everybody and very important for those who are in the 2.5 3.0 range that would benefit from being over a 3.0 with these adjustments but it's just as important for those at the upper echelons because that difference for us was easily $4,000 per daughter so thank you thank you comments hi wal arstone 18 Strawbridge uh I came tonight uh to get more information and I really appreciate that I have got a lot of information uh I appreciate the hard work you put into the presentation and bell curves everybody lovs a good bell curve but I I'm coming away from the meeting and uh about the different scale and just from this meeting just coming in and hearing everything feels unfair it feels my gut is telling me this is unfair that's all I have to say thank you any other comments well just a question but rhetorical almost maybe somebody asked sorry was it Tracy I'm sorry it's Tracy do I need to introduce myself Sor again there's only one comment allowed per person public comment section sorry any other comments from other members of the audience um Christina 782 West momy so the question she has what is the be to a seven point scale um I that's the answer but I think we've been here for several hours and we don't know what do we gain from this you haven't heard anything I think some points in the last these questions I think some points some things good um Consulting the students about what their uh course selection would be uh if the grading style was different I think that's solid I you talk on the phone Megan definitely worth considering uh Ching the middle of the grade passing grade 70 is that too rigorous what is the data show I think that's worth the middle of the scale what is worth of some additional study I think we didn't necessarily have a common language all of us because when I was asked to evaluate at 10 point scale just looking at flat 10 but plus minus variant you I want to reiterate I'm not necessarily opposed to that in principle um at all it's just we have to look at how that will be crosswalked to to that to our 4.0 or 5.0 or whereever land I think we will have changes through our grading scale so I don't want the community to leave here tonight say they're not going to change anything I I think that du be changes and we don't know what they're going to be uh tonight we definitely need to do more with communication uh we need to do more with plan education student education um and the point about scholarships for private clubs sons of Italy alcino rotary they don't understand the algorithm GPA the scale that our kids might be disadvantaged in in in with those local Stars you need to do a better job and helping them understand because they are comparing our students to school district um students from different school districts that have different scales and gr systems so this is not about us being opposed to change but this one particular change it's not my I think it's in the best interest of the majority of our students that doesn't say that change isn't coming and that parents aren't going to be part of the process and majority I can to make parents part of that process question is what does that look like because want grp of parents and you know you know what does that interaction look like so I'd appreciate Mee meeting us halfway you continue to show up I understand why because you love your kids okay and I respect that and I'd rather um have the issue where parents are continuing to be S um persistent and continuing to show up that's fine that means you love your kids you know my dad was pill up in school teacher none of his parents showed up the back to school right so I understand you know take the persistent parent every day of the week be actually keep PA so thank you for that late tonight and thank you for creating a structure that have this exchange uh are there any questions or comments from the board for Bob or the rest of the board I just have a general comment as personnel and policy chair I would love nothing more than to be here this evening and to tell you that there is peer-reviewed research in favor of a 10-point scale or peer-reviewed research in favor of a seven-point scale the reality is there isn't on either side and I just want to be completely transparent and open about that and when you know I felt my own research skills were lacking I reached out to some of the top assessment and greeting researchers in the country and said what am I missing please please uncover it for me and they said you're not the the reality is from a research-based perspective the highest quality grading system that we could have for our students is not about 7p point it's not about 10o it's actually a standards Mastery based model and when you talk about whole states going in a certain direction the entire state of main went in that direction in 2019 and it was not all that positive even though there was peer-reviewed research to support it so I don't want you to think that we as a board are not having those convers ations as a whole board are not having those conversations and doing our very due diligence in committees but we also don't want to mislead the public to say this is the best or that is the best because quite honestly and and many of you have illuminated this this evening there's just not undeniable research on other on any side of the scale and what we're saying at this point this evening is there is not a recommendation to move forward with a flat 10-point scale that doesn't mean that there's not an opportunity to continue the dialogue to engage as a board to engage our Administration and engage parents in what those steps collectively for our entire Community look like moving forward and just having served in that role as the board I felt it was my responsibility to share that with you this evening so that you're not wondering what are the conversations what's happening what are we reviewing that we're not being transparent about that's it I I wish I CLE answers I wish I could say this is the study this is the one it it just doesn't exist so I I thank you you know for being here and continuing the the dialogue moving forward thank you all for coming tonight thank you for hanging in for this long meeting I appreciate you being here or can I get a motion to all inor