##VIDEO ID:Nurdq3Pr34A## okay okay all right it is a little past 6:30 um my name is Tom Mckay I'm the vice chair of the board this is the hesport township joint land use board meeting for August 7 2024 our chairman Harold cro cannot be here today so uh I will be running the meeting in his place first we'll have a call to order which I have just uh just done uh second we will have a flag seat flag the United States of America stands one nation God indivisible with liy and justice for all all right can I have a recitation of the sun Sunshine Law compliance notice that this meeting was published in accordance with the open public meetings act all right we have a rule here uh we've had for many many years we'll have no new business after 10:30 p.m. that is we'll start no matter uh after 10:30 p.m. but if a if a matter has started before that hour uh we will try to conclude it tonight all right uh I'll need a roll call please this Tori here Mr Bradley here Mrs kellly here mayor Gilmore here Mr toochi here Mrs bgio here Mr Murphy yes Miss Costco here Mr nov verita here Mr Holden absent Mr cifer absent and Mr MC here uh we're going to take uh items for business slightly out of order I'm going to take C first which is just an announcement uh this is case 23- 06a jdeb M Highway LLC um if anybody is here for that uh Council for the applicant uh Vincent Leah Esquire has sent a letter to the board asking that uh the matter be carried uh and relisted uh to September 4th quote if not October 2nd close quote Yeah make a determination when we have our pre- agenda meeting because I'm not sure we can get him on in September and he has already agreed in his letter to re-advertise right he has a I was going to say that he's going to read vertise if we go out as that far yes so you preer not to set the date today correct but just po postpone it yes okay um we have a vote on that adjournment a motion continue it to indefinite date for which there will be all right can I have a motion so move thank you second thank you um roll call please mayor Gilmore yes Mr Bradley yes Mrs Tori yes m Mrs Kelly yes Mr chochi yes Mrs bgio yes Mr Murphy yes M Costco yes and Mr M yes all right getting back to the items for business the first item case 24-11 Alicia Glover uh regarding 74 eastn way bulk variance for an addition would you please come forward and be swarm man good evening good evening how are you [Music] now you were on the four but we had to adjourn this because of a publication issue I guess yeah so uh we looked at the material um and this is for um an addition to your house for uh a relative to U move in with you is that my understanding who will be my mom your mother okay uh all right why don't you um why don't you explain to us what you what you want to get we have your application in front of us and we can follow along great thank you one thank you for your time I won't La labor it I know that um your time is valuable um I just have four small points um just to give you a little bit of background um lost my father December 2022 at that point um my mom's cognitive um disabilities um became a parent um he took care of all of her household maintenance bills everything I've become my mom's power of attorney at that point um just handling everything that she can't handle um my mom also has physical disabilities and therefore the home that she currently lives in in Mount Holly she can't navigate not only can she not navigate the stairs but um she does forget and it's not safe for her anymore all right um so you know we did make the decision for Mom to move in with me and at that point um come up with the proposal to add on to our home so that she can be comfortable all right let me stop you here and very end please raise your hand swear to tell the truth Tru truth to help you God yes okay all right thank you she's the she was sworn it yeah I'm double sworn it now dou double SW you're fine at much well I'm I'm trying to read stuff and listen to you at the same time totally understand so go ahead so so you have this you have this heal issue that we have to deal with yeah yeah and so therefore you know moving in with me would be the best option she's alone in the home the home is too much for her to navigate um so um basically you know I think that it was important um personally for her home her room that she's currently in to be kind of equal to the proposed home um wanting her to have her items that she's familiar with and just you know thinking in the future the room large enough to be able to manipulate and maneuver a wheelchair a hospital bid or any adaptive equipment that she might need in the future that's the the whole thought in planning the size of the room um my third point which is important it is important that my neighbors be supportive and understanding of the proposed plan so I did talk with my neighbors just so that they can get an understanding of what the plan was in the rationale um my immediate neighbors Tom and Lori SEI um which who cannot be here tonight um for whatever is worth they are in support of this plan um I think it's also important for the construction to be seamless and not be an eyesore in the community so I did reach out to and include um Michael paperone who is the Builder who initially built the home and then my final Point um is that you know the whole basis for being here is that my proposal it you know does set go into the setback um but just a just a point to remember is that although it says 4T it's 4T say like a like a pizza slice I must be hungry I'm talking about pizza it's shaped like a triangle so it does go from 4T down to um probably a couple of inches so um it is my hope and um that you would understand my my plea and take that into consideration okay and we have the architect's drawings um tell you what we'll oh you have them in large in large fashion large good good evening folks Kathy Nukem hesport Township zoning officer so the reason here is that they we'll start off the fact that it's a bulk variance because a 15t side yard setback is required where she is at 10.3 so if you take a look at the plans and I researched them before I even did the denial was to make sure that this was not able to become an apartment if you take a look uh I had to have the architect redo couple things on the inside um so there is no outside entrance there's no separate utilities everything is strictly through the main house and it truly is just a bedroom there's no kitchen there's no anything else um so with that said one of the things that um I received just recently was the fact that I was concerned about where the drainage would be going on this house because of the fact that it is um to she doesn't have a neighbor to the left but she does have a neighbor to the right so unfortunately I don't have a ton of these plans I only have one or two but it does show on these plans where the drainage will be going to which I took a look at pretty well detailed um as to where they are going um you're more than welcome that I can pass around if you like um they are on A1 and A2 uh and then you can take a quick look of these I I'll get out both of them and if you have any questions we can try and establish if there's any other concerns um Miss nuk is that plan that you have in front of you your copy or can that be used as an exhibit copy no we can we can give that we um Miss Glover also has one too so you're more than welcome to have these all right well we just need one copy we take Mrs uh we take yours if if that works yeah that's fine and Mark that as exhibit a yes uh designate that as exhibit a and that's um that consists of um uh the the uh the architect's drawings um right if you take a look at A2 and A3 the architect clouded the area of where the drainage would be going so that it would not affect the homeowner to the right that was a concern of mine um a little while ago and the architect was kind enough to give us quickly um some information on that right um Marty have you looked at this at all no I haven't made him do that because that usually for homeowners that's not a requirement right and just on the point of the drainage you're fine with the drainage though thank you yes I'm comfortable in taking a look at this um I feel that it has done a fairly good job in resolving the issue um again she had she's on a corner property so she has no be to the left of her at all right um the lot is more than big enough uh it does drain back down to the Wetland buffers that are behind this house so where it goes to um I feel is is a good good place did you say that uh did I hear you correctly that the papon built the original house and they're going to do the addition as well okay all right all right um M GL do you have anything else that you want to add to your application you haven't said already all right questions for you Mr no I think um you know you you covered the two points the um the access to the exterior and the and the drainage issue right I had talked to the architect extensively in regard to this um it's a 353t square foot bedroom um and again it's not like some of the other ones where we had the situation where they had doors in the back and we mandated they had sliders versus a man door this does not have that on there's no none of no doors on on this addition right okay okay anything else please feel free to no that's all thank you very much uh members of the board um questions the appli okay any um professionals any any questions on this sir done at all okay um I'll open this up to the public any public comment on this specific application anything online doesn't here okay hearing no hearing nothing from either the online or the in person will close public meeting um there are no questions on the application can I have a a motion to Grant the variance requested some moved second roll call please Mrs Tori yes Mrs bagio yes Mr Bradley yes Mrs Cy yes mayor Gilmore yes Mr chochi yes Mr Murphy yes m m yes and Mr mck yes all right um you're approved she has decided not to move forward with a waiver proceed so I just want to let you know that all right so so you understand it'll be about 30 days before the the U the resolution is issued and signed and it'll be delivered sent to you and then you can proceed with u application for permit construction yes thank you so much okay no [Music] problem all right um next we have um B item on our list case 19- 09d r&m uh development 60 bankrupt Lane revised subdivision David Frank nice to see you good evening Mr chairman need a minute to set up yeah well we can start to cabor while they get their work done okay who are your Witnesses tonight Mr chairman uh this evening we be having uh Jack grin professional engineer testifying Mr grin will testify to the particularities of the improvements that we've made on the site we'll also have James melet he is also a professional engineer and Mr melet was most closely involved in the njd permitting process for the proposed pipe and outfall structure um which is proposed uh as a part of this so um if I may just sort of set the set the stage yeah ask you to give us a give us an opening statement okay so uh my name is David Frank I'm an attorney at law admitted to practice in the state of New Jersey here tonight on behalf of r&m development we're here seeking an amended final major site plan approval and the purpose of the amendment is to implement a settlement agreement that was reached in some litigation that was filed under docket number bul 19272 one and the the settlement was between Creek View and and uh Lakeside at Creek View Community Association as the plth and hesport Township this board um my client and uh excuse me the diamantis children's trust so those were the the parties to the settlement and the most important piece of the puzzle with regard to the settlement is that the original approval of this board contemplated that storm water would flow from a basin on this new subdivision um and we back up it's a 41 home senior citizen development age restricted um that storm water would flow from the uh the Basin on this property through what was believed to be and may very well be uh a storm water easement into the Greek bu Lakeside development and so um the right of this property to cause that flow into Creek View was challenged and the settlement that was reached between all the parties was that instead of storm water being directed There it would either be wholly infiltrated on site on the subject property or um Andor it would be uh uh taken off the site via an easement on adjoining Township owned lands so specifically that's Lots 9 and 10 of block 100 and just to to sort of read into the record the language of the settlement other than the issues related to the discharge of storm water into plaintiff's property all of the approvals and waivers granted by The Joint land use support to the applicants in the resolution and they're referencing there the resolution of final uh major subdivision approval from this board remain in full force in effect subject to any conditions contained therein the applicants agreed or re-engineer the stormw discharge plans to address a storm event exceeding the 100-year storm the easement to be negotiated between the applicants in the township and or to be retained on the applicant's property subject to re review of all designs and Engineering by the township and Joint land use board professionals and subject to any generally applicable bonding and maintenance obligations all right you're reading from paragraph 3 three and four of the am the three yes thank you um and then you um would you think it advisable to mark that stipulation of settlement and dismissal as an exhibit here um so that we have it we can certainly do that it was attached to the transmittal letter that was sent to the board as uh the first exhibit exhibit a to that letter um so I don't know what your practices whether that would be marked separately or whether because it's in the the record of the filing part of the application it's part of the application then it's already in yes all right that's fine um and then it says in paragraph five applicants shall appear before the joint land use board to obtain amended site plan and pertinent approvals as it relates to the storm water discharge of rising from weather event exceeding the 100-year storm subject to this order via hearing pursuant to the Whispering Woods the Middletown Township so and so that brings you here that brings us here and so what we've done is very specifically re-engineer the storm water management of the site to address uh this the stipulation of settlement and um in that vein I'm going to call uh in a nutshell yes you had you mentioned two met methods of discharge from the from the site actually one not from the site one captured on site and the other sent to uh the easement uh uh from the town did you have you decided engineering wise which which which you're going to you're going to Pro yes what um and and Mr grelin I think can can confirm this but um our Engineers plural did very extensive analysis of um how to manage the storm water on the site uh what the flows will be what the capacity of the soils are what there will be for for groundwater mounding in the event of of uh different infiltration and um in every scenario it is always going to be necessary to have somewhere for the water to go um in ter in in the time of an excessive storm beyond the 100-year storm for which we're OED to design here so um no matter what the design chosen is or the amount of infiltration whether we chose infiltrate the 100-year storm on site as was an option under the settlement or to to pipe away we would always have to have a pipe somewhere it's simply not uh good design practice and I'm sure Mr grain will confirm that when he comes up not to have somewhere for it so to simplify you're going to use both methods um I don't think that's inaccurate statement there will be on-site infiltration we're required to have on-site infiltration the regulations but um we're going to be using the uh the outfall pipe uh in in the remote circumstance of an extremely heavy storm so and we can talk about that but in terms Mr gra can can can explain that but in terms of the settlement right um we're we're taking on one of the options in that settlement agreement which it turns out is really the only feasible engineering option so lawyers can write stuff on paper but when uh you have to deal with real water and real dirt then the engineers step in and they tell us how it really works all right you want to swear both of your engineers I I do and before I do that though I want to start out the the conversation with we have received the uh reports of your engineer and your planner uh both dated August 6th we've reviewed them together carefully and we are able to comply with all of the plan detail and design comment set forth in those letters uh the only uh it's not even an exception the only thing that we would say is that uh there is a suggestion in your engineers letter that we uh think about the possibility of some consolidations of uh dry Wells that we're going to be installing to serve uh to take up the roof drainage from homes and we're actually not a ble to do that under the's green infrastructure requirements we have to be distributed around the site that's the only thing that we would say that we can't fully comply with um and uh it'll come up as we talk but uh your planner suggested that rather than a straight line for our pipe and easement through the township owned properties that uh we put a curve in it uh and we're absolutely amable to doing that and it will probably become something that we would would work through with the Township to do anyway so so explain to us what the curb accomplishes so Mr chairman if I may um it was sort of a two-part comment the first U intent of that was and I think it was in an earlier report a straight line of vegetation of vegetation removal um if if there are Curves in the PIP that would give us an opportunity to perhaps route this around any major major specimens that may be identified the second thing was from a visual standpoint instead of having that cleared easement area be a straight line if that does curve um it will reduce the visual impacts of that clearing and if we can reduce the specimen tree clearing that will also have some environmental benefit thirdly as the town knows this parcel uh Lots 9 10 is contempla for the construction of what will likely be known as Creek turn Park part of the board's initial approval as you know on lot 18 the applicant is being required to construct a pedestrian connection from this development to the creek turn Park property that lot 18 and the location uh at the interface between the two lots is is coincident with where this storm pipe is we anticipate as that Park design evolves the part of this easement clearing will be utilized for the construction of the walkway system within the park instead of having that as a straight line which is really not an attractive or natural feature um having this as a curv element will facilitate the park development of the walkway potentially reduce visual ual impacts and uh hopefully reduce or maybe avoid some specimen tree removal I AP that from the longed but you all know how I am so so to follow up on Mr Taylor's comments um know we're certainly amable to working with Mr Taylor and his office to assure that we avoid any significant specimen trees um to the greatest possible extent and also to make the the um the easement integrate well with the with the plan trails and Parks the peculiarity of this situation is that um the township will control the easement right we're here for site plan review as it pertains to compliance with the township storm water management ordinance and how that applies to the stipulation and settlement the township governing body is going to have a great deal of control over what my client is able to do within that easement and where that easement ultimately ends up being routed um and so my thought would be that that um any approval that this board gives here um would be for the engineering design as opposed to the specific route through the Township's property and that then would be the subject uh of further further conversations with Mr Taylor and the township solicitor as we work through the actual Grant of the easement by the township um which remains uh within the township governing body's discretion so um what we're doing here is is a piece of the puzzle but but that ultimate piece of the puzzle I think gets resolved at the at the governing body and not and not here Mr Kingsbury are you uh an agreement or not with that stat I agree with that it's it's a Township issue whether or not need granted or Den not it's not a V for right and then the specific terms of the design and how we do it also then Falls with the township right this board cannot decide to Grant the easement or not Grant the that's outside your District all right when you're uh you're your engineer is going to cover what he what he can cover on easement just for informational purposes sure absolutely and and so we're going to put on Mr grelin who's going to speak to you about the changes that we've made on the site and specifics of the the pipe and that and then we're going to have Mr melet talk with you about the njd njd permitting process some of the analysis that we've done in support with that and some of the other aspects of that so is it Mr is it Melton spell that last name for me m e l l e t t QT yes James um so you want to come on Mr grelin you can you be sworn again today um we have your credentials we're you're familiar we're familiar with youir testimony tonight nothing yes I all right you're admitted to testify as an expert in this matter thank you Mr chairman uh my name is uh Jack gra I'm a civil engineer I have a long history with this property since the original development of the diner um the revisions we are asking for tonight there are actually seven my plan this is uh Chief two of the final development plans identical to what is in your packet and it indicates the overall development in the area and it also indicates the township lands in the north east um we had we were approved for a 41 residential one homeowners slash open space lot as well as two park access Lots our uh our request is identical we have not changed this plan at all with the exception of indicated and E Alan cus and we'll get that uh in a minute one of the parcels that will go to the uh to the township is the access back from bankra that that actually originates all of our access do our development so there'll be one parcel here we will be building the main road itself there is also a smaller parcel located here Lot 8 indicated on my plan it is a narrow pedestrian lot it will have a fence on either side it will have a concrete sidewalk going up it will also contain the water and sewer which we will install and have at the property line which will be for the township to to extend their utilities to that point so that has not changed at all what has changed is number one the Basin out flow pipe discharge location previously it was proposed to come from the back of the Basin through a drainage easement and into the municipal Street down below that is what uh the court agreement apparently said we are not able to do as a result uh that has been removed so that's number one number two the storm water basin itself which is in this corner has been revised slightly and shifted if you look at the before plan and the after plan you really can't tell a difference I actually picked the Contours up and mve them slightly only to provide some additional room at the back back of the property number three a revised basic al4 pipe has been added the pipe will be cons will be installed from the side of the Basin behind Lots 13 through 18 out of the Township Line proper line and Rin eement ultimately this charging in the ran cus Creek is it Mr grin is it easier to use the other diagram that you have sure to to locate this new first of all start from scratch show us about where the old outfall was if I could that is premark as exhibit number two and it was prepared by Churchill engineering okay that's wonderful with today's date so on exhibit number two uh show us the approximate location of the old outfall it's not being constructed the original outfall that I had designed went in between these two lots through an insistent drainage eent and into working place that pipe has been eliminated as a result of the Court rolling the new outfall structure from the Basin will be on the side at this area and the underground will extend behind the proposed Lots through a drainage easement we will create a drainage easement Point each of these lots for that fight and this intersects at the proposed 15t wide Township W that has intended for pedestrian access as well as utilities that's the lot that you just that's the lot that you previously indicated that is correct okay once we reach this point we are proposing the pl to extend out to the ran cus Creek that necessitated a very detailed Waterfront development permit through through njde we were fortunate we were able to get Mr bellet and our churcher Associates to assist me on that it was a permit process that I was not really comfortable doing without their input as it as it turned out it was a very good decision to bring them in has the permit been obtained yes permit has been obtained we didn't want to come back in until we were 100% certain we would get the permit it has been issued and it was included as part of the application packet no number four a storm sewer easement has been added to block 100.2 Lots 13 18 for maintenance of the pipe that is at the rear of these Lots as I previously indicated part of the original approval required a tree protection area on this side as well as this side that's that shaded that's that shaded area is correct shaded in green that has not been touched we located all those trees we went through all that during the original approval process no changes at all to that number five as part of the D permitting they required us to install dry Wells for the roof drainage that are that'll be sized for the water quality storm what that is um because it is root drainage it is basically considered clean so it can go directly into a dryw and be infiltrated into the ground so we of course agreed to do that and on my revised grading plant which is part of the application documents I indicate the location of all those all those dry Wells I opposing one drywell per two houses all of them are located within the swes in between the properties towards the front of the property because it is only sized for a water quality storm event there is the potential it will come up flow out and it will go directly into the street which ultimately ends up within the storm water collection system and then the proposed uh Basin at the back of the site so actually it's it's an extra factor of safety we did not even consider that in our calculations we have it based on all the water running from the rooms going down to the street and in the Basin the wanted us to add that as the best management practice and of course we did let me just interrupt you these um uh these shared dry Wells shared by two houses um do they require periodic maintenance absolutely they will be maintained by the homeowners association and there will be appropriate easements around them so that they so that the homeowners association has the right to get in there do whatever work that is required periodically they will need to be inspected and maintain they are included in our storm water management maintenance schedules and it will be inspected and where appropriate repaired maintained that just uh give us a a short explanation of what a dryw is when used in this way it is a basically a fretch drain system however it's an open tank it's a seage tank that will have stone on the bottom perforations on the side as the water comes in it will infiltrate in at the ground at the top will be a grate where the water will be able to relieve if necessary flow out and into the streets okay can you tell me the approximate size of the drywalls well uh they will probably be 8T diameter I'm expecting I have to actually size these things mhm based upon the roof drained size I'm expecting about an 8T diameter tank you won't ever see it it'll be buried of course but there will be access at the top of it both for the relief as I had indicated as well as to be able to get in there and potentially clean it out okay thank you these tanks are they're plastic of some sort of plastic they they be plastic they may be concrete uh in this day and age you can probably go with a high density polyethylene that'll work just as well but I have not actually specified what the tank material will be at this point all right so you're were um you're working um on the next item okay next item is number six the erosion control plan has been revised to include Sil fencing and RI wrap through the outlet structure at the ran cus Creek one of the plans in my plan set is an offsite sewer plan that indicates how the outlet structure at the creek will be constructed what the erosion control what the what the required stabilization is in that area so that the water that does leave the pipe and enters in the Duran COC this the entire area will be stabilized now that was all reviewed as part of the uh D Waterfront development permit is it so does the permit include um drawings uh depicting the the manner in which this the outfall pipe to be is to be designed yes the approval was all based upon engineering drawings that I prepared and I signed and seal and this will be structure uh constructed on Township property Park property pursuant to the Eastman that is correct a portion of the pipe will be constructed within an easement on the township property the actual Outlaw structure is is along the creek line in the proximity of the Open Water which will also be constructed on the township property okay last revision were Min minor technical revisions have been made in support of a another D treatment works approval permit for the sewer and a PWS permit for the watermate extension they were technical changes they were contained on sheets five and 12 they are required in order for us to get those two additional de permits and these and these are the extensions that are going to be capped for the moment that flow into Township property for subsequent use they will be included in those permits but both permits are required to allow us to extend the public sewer throughout our property connecting to the hesport township system and for New Jersey American Water to extend a water M around our property from those Mains we will run connections off the mains to the rear of our property where it intersects with the township property for your use they will be lateral connections service connections not full-size Mains they are not required are they going in the same location as the outfall pipe they'll be they'll be in proximity the actual the actual utility services will be coming up the east or the 15t wide pedestrian L at the at the at the end of that there will be a bhole for the new store pipe there will be two connection points alongside for the water and sewer that will serve the property or the park property at the back okay is there anything else you've covered your seven items that is the extent of the revisions to the plan and as you can see the vast majority result from the modifications of the Basin and the outlet piping system now it has always been my opinion that proper civil engineering DCT ated that a controlled overflow system from the base it needed to be installed and we have been able to accomplish this at no point would I ever sign and seal a drawing without that pipe on it it just it's it just isn't sound civil engineering practice and it as I indicated it did require the Waterfront development permit which has been obtained we brought in Jim melet from Churchill to assist that permanent he can add some additional insight into that process Mr Frank uh any other points before I ask the the board if they have questions I just want to point out that in Mr Miller's letter your engineer's letter there is request for some further details concerning the size and specifications and calculations that drive the sizes of of the drive so you're engineer has picked that up as something that he would like to see just some detail on that's part of what we're agreeing to provide uh to the board to Mr review right you you previously agreed to compliance with his comments that's because was something you asked about I want to make sure that that is something that we are stay there Mr any any questions from the professionals on these points before I ask the board if they have questions well I can tell the board that uh I had a sensive conversation with Mr grain about the uh the outa and in particular having to do with the permitting with the D and uh I was satisfied with that I looked that the uh the manual for the uh inspection of the dve wells and what happens is is that they have to complete this manual and when they complete the manual um and and start it into operation will give it to the township and then gets part of their storm water management but they have the detail to begin with and they have the first step meeting uh two things just very briefly um Jack I believe in part your earlier testimony you had said that lot 18 was going to be a Township lot yes I believe that I believe that lot 18 is actually going to be retained by the HOA and maintained by the HOA with blank easements but I think just rely on the prior approvals and I don't yeah you know we had discussed that both ways however the board would like it we could certainly do it that way uh but we did create an individual lot for either way now I believe the access road you want us to dedicate that correct that parel correct yeah that will be dedicated and then maintained by the municipality but the notes that I have on sheet three are that lot 18 will be part of the open space to be maintained by the HOA if it's on my plan so I just wanted it because I think and it's been a couple years yes it's um one other uh two other things the the maintenance of the new storm water pipe across Lots 8 and nine the responsibility for the maintenance of that pipe will remain with the HOA yes will be the hoa's responsibility okay and mean it's of the flared end or head wall the the the entirety the entirety yes and and that's very much going to be the subject of what we work through with the governing body and the township solicitor the specific language of the easement as well as how we secure the responsibility of the HOA to actually perform on its obligations under the easement agreement I know sort of part of that process was the HOA dots being submitted to the board professionals that's going to end up having to go to the township professionals as well so that everything can get wrapped up the HOA documents are going to need to reflect that that they that there exists this easen and that the HOA needs to be respectful of its constraints but I don't think that necessarily the case that the HOA documents are going to drive the agreement and obligation with the town that's going to be dealt with through the easement document I I expect um so so the HOA docs yeah we'll get them to you there uh and the town's professionals will also certainly have their hand in that no doubt about it um and I guess the last question I had Mr Goin the uh I don't think it was noted on C12 clearly DP is requiring restoration of that Disturbed easement area um can we make sure do you happen to know is that a largely native seed mixture is that or is that something that can be coordinated and that may be a question for Mr Mel well we're going to have to work that out with the burington County Civil conservation they will actually be the uh be the jurisdiction that will tell us how they want that stabilized I can indicate to the board there are many methods of of a stabilization we will absolutely do whatever is necessary in order to stabilize that area particularly the slope area as you go down to the Rain Focus Mr are you more concerned that in the in the level upper areas where the pipeline itself runs that there would be natives installed there as a part of your Park development um just as part of because I know soils will allow some other non-native species obviously priority number one becomes stabilization of the entire area particularly those that are steep sloped and then secondarily if the utilization of native species and whether that's Woody shr material that ends up being part of the process um with soils or whether it is just herbaceous um maximizing the utilization of natives for that stabilization I think should be an objective it I think that's an objective that we could agree to as an objective not as an absolute because to the extent that we understand that soils ultimately at the end of the day has right geion on that right and certainly and some some non-natives May be transition right understood and as we're working through the exact root of this fight I'll be more than happy to take all your suggestions into the C and incorporate that into our design I can see you and I going out there on site and identifying what areas have to be saved where we can put the pipe and we'll simply uh re-engineer the pipe to make that work all right so we'll note that all stabilization objective agreement in the in the U in the resolution that was all I have Mr chairman that's it okay uh board members specific questions to Mr grelin before we move on to Mr melet no I I do have a question I don't know if this is appropriate for Mr gravlin but in the permit from De it states that the Disturbed areas within 50 ft of the top of Bank of the South Branch of the ranco stre shall be restored how is that different from the the entire easan area the pipe how is that 50 ft how is that different in terms of restoration think may bring J okay the baby um good all right well then I would like to thank Mr Miller he has a good Cooper the whole way through I've spoke to him many many times on his on his driv thank you for that comment U Mr melet Good Jim would you like to give us a benefit of your s firm testimon I [Music] do education experence absolutely um I'm a professional engineer registered in um New Jersey I have an undergraduate degree in civil engineering master's degree in Water Resources environmental engineering the president of the church H Consulting engineering which is a approximately 100 people firm in Berlin New Jersey my expertise and why I'm here on this application here tonight is is in Water Resources design storm water management flood plane management um as well as environmental permitting um I've I've served as zoning board engineer for for um Gloucester Township cam county S other Township sh appeared before many boards in New Jersey um and as you said expert civil engineering specifically as he is accepted so um what can we your question thing we'll get to that okay thanks got it so uh so good evening um everyone um I'm going to try not to retread a lot of the conversation and testimonies we provided tonight already again I'm going to focus on more so the storm Wonder management and the permanent side um so as as we noted before you know one of the major changes that we made on this job on this design um is that we we had to seek an alternative location for the um the Overflow system for this Basin uh Mr grin stated it before that it is standard engineer in practice um to to have a designed overflow for a system as opposed to just infiltrating it into a low Point all like up to the 100 years storm um I agree with that statement completely um and so when when we were brought on to the to the project that's one of the first things that we assisted with with just kind of brainstorming how are we going to do this and it was very apparent um since there was the condition of the settlement that that the township would provide an easement across the township property to the ran cus Creek that that was the most suitable Lo suit suitable alternative to that design um it provides and one of the main things that makes that viable is that you know the elevation of this site in the faing in particular versus the ran cookus Creek is a substantial change in elevation approximately 30 to Ft and so there's a significant amount of dry an elevation that we can get that water to the ran cookus Creek despite the fact that it's it's several hundred feet away and so so all that said we decided that that was the most appropriate place to to design that overflow and and and Mr grain described the the alignment of that um and how we how we made that happen um the implications of that design there's a couple of things first off that triggered njd review which which we've already talked and that triggered DP Review because ranus Creek is a is a coastal Waterway so meaning it is a tital Waterway EBS and floods and because of that it it's regulated under water font development Rules by the njd um and so we need to get a waterfront development individual permit to allow that outfall to be constructed at that location and so um the other condition of that is that when you go to the department for Waterfront development permits you also then trigger their review of the storm water management and so we knew that going in that they were also going to dig into the storm water design um and so getting back to that um that outlet and now that we have we were we were going to try to avoid infiltrating all of this the 100-year Storm Into the Bas which is what the previous design was and that's really important because again that is not standard practice in fact ngdp um standards um specifically within the ngdp B&P manual which is a design manual for how you design stor Management Systems specifically states that if you can the the only storm that's supposed to be infiltrated retained and infiltrated into the ground is the water quality storm event and that's about 1 in one inch of rain over two hours you know we frequent storm we get all the time in the summertime right so that is ideally the only storm you infiltrate into the ground um anything above that you're supposed to detain it make sure you're not flooding out any anybody you're reducing Peak rates and then you let it go in a controlled environment right that's that's ideally how storter management is designed throughout our state and so the previous design was very different it was you're taking the 100-year storm which is about 9 Ines of rain versus that one Ines of rain and we're trying to infiltrate that entire thing into the ground and so if if you can avoid that you you'd never want to do that and so again with this ability to now discharge into the ran cookus Creek it opens up the that ability to to just infiltrate what we need to the water quality storm into the ground and then the rest of the storms we just we detain it in accordance with state standards and then we let it go into the ran cookus Creek and so that that's something that you know Jack was able to accomplish in in in the revised stor management design and what we submitted to the DB um I just want to you spoke about previous design want to back up we had an application that we submitted here 2 years ago that is the previous design that Jim is referring to which was a 100% impation design we attempted to do that that is not the previous design that was approved the previous design was approved by this board Incorporated an out that into the pr development so just to to clarify that we we withdrew that application we dismissed without prejudice in February 23 I think and so in fact we're talking about the difference between the discharge in Creek View or discharge over directly that's the thank you so in addition to that one thing that we did and the design was well so now we're we're operating under a new set of sowon regulations that came into to enactment recently um commonly referred to the green infrastructure rules and then also was they added some um changes that um were to address climate flooding caused by climate change effects and so as a result of that the design is actually brought up to the current standards and so not only is the Bas the Basin is is designed for you know your 21 100e storm of today but the Basin is also designed to um manage and reduce Peak rate Peak rates red um release from the Basin for the future 100-year storm and that's basically that's on the planning Horizon of the Year 2100 that you know the rate the precipitation that the DP and other agencies have determined to be a probable estimation or very conservative estimation of what the precipitation amount would be in the year 2100 and so this this design actually accounts for that climate change factor and reduces that Peak rate even more to consider those effects and so that's you know that's a very conservative approach to stor Water Management where and that's where the state's going and your future applications are all going to have that so um but this has been that's been incorporated into this design there's other factors in design that are very conservative nature as well um when we did the Basin routing um there is no exfiltration Factor what that means is we're assuming that no water has gone to the into the ground at any time during the during the entire storm event it and and that's just not the case right when when storm water comes into the Basin some's going to go down in the ground some's going to go out on the side slopes of the Basin but as a conservative approach none of that was assumed to be happening and so again that's a that's something that's built into design to make it conservative um we we mentioned before I think Jack mentioned it but I I'll repeat it because it Bears worth repeating is with the drywall systems um they're kind of done as an added measure they're done it they were done at the request of the njd but in terms of the quantity reduction and the function of that Basin it's as if they don't exist they could we could remove them from the design and the Basin would function just as well it's an added level of conservatism um and then two more things that I would point out in terms of the conservative approach to the design is that there is there is an additional freeboard within this Basin um essentially meaning if the maximum water surface elevation for that future 100 stolen elevation is here there's an additional 2 ft above that before it would Crest over the Basin um so that's that's a generally conservative approach to the design and lastly the alpha um pipe that is traversing the township property going out to the bookus creek is it's it's oversized um on the scale of six times greater than the anticipated flow for the 100-year storm future 100-year storm um it's still a pretty small pipe it's it's only 18in pipe but it is an oversized pipe um to account for the what if scenario where there's even greater storm has additional capacity to to pass below um or should the town want to tie into it that's another possibility down the line um we require further engineering analysis but it's definitely possible to do um so all that said I mean that kind of highlights the the different things that went into you know what we worked with Jack as we knew these are the things that D see um you know from uh from from the application standpoint it was a very it was a benign it determined to be very benign impacts in terms of environmental impacts teeny species clearing all those things um those were never the issues when we discussed it with the DP um storm water management was the sole Focus um is what I would say to summarize it when we for that application um and why we put all those levels of um a conservative approach to the design so as stated the approval was received by the ngtp uh we're going to address questions in a second but the last thing I wanted to say is that we we recognize the last thing that has to be done is we have to go to The Soil Conservation District and obtain approvals um for the outfall stabilization of that outfall Etc and we you know and um as as stated they would have the final say and what is required the stabilization standpoint the vegetation that's needed to do that Jim before I hand you off for questions just when when njd does a waterfront permit review as they did here um do they look at the at other regulations other than just the water he regulation is that part of their review process well yeah actually I mean so Waterfront the way the water development rules are written um they actually bring in essentially all of their rules into it so uh so they look at any requirements that are under the flood Hazard area Control Act rules stor water management rules um other other portions of the state it would bring in Coast you know caer requirements and things like that but that's not applicable here but the answer your question yes they they look at the suite of their rules and you basically have to address all of them under that one set of rules if I characterize that to you in the past as it don't get on the agency space the process yes yeah so we want to make sure that something doesn't crop up that embarrasses the agency because we've issued a permit over here that's consistent with other that's correct that's they yes now questions so your question if I can summarize it was the distinction between that 50 ft um and so that's um so that 50 ft is is actually coming again as I described the flood AER um area Control Act rules come under the the rules as well and so typically any Waterway not typically any waterway in New Jersey has a what's called a repairing Zone varies in in size of it um in this case 50 ft and that's why they make a distinction within that 50 ft there's an added um burden to to make sure you're stabilizing it and um in accordance with their standards so that's that's why they call it out beyond that within the permit I don't know that there's a a great you know they're not making us put back Woody you know to address your question earlier um it would likely be done with some herbaceous mix that um you know would keep it open for maintenance in the future um but it would all be done you know the question of indous species um I mean that's that's typically a requirement in the soci Conservation District you know so I I don't anticipate that would be a problem at all Incorporated Mr Frank anything else for me all right um Mr Miller questions no yes sir nothing board no questions okay okay uh any other testimony Mr fr no those are our Witnesses um so um I'll give you a brief time to sum up if you need it so just to sum up um we were obliged to come back here for uh an amended approval that reflected the changes that we needed to make to comply with the stipulation of settlement that was agreed between all the parties we made those changes uh and through careful engineering we determined that we needed an njd permit we got that permit um we're in compliance with your storm water management regulations and and your standards there are no changes to the previously approved subdivision plan other than the specific sort of engineering details that we discussed here and I'd ask for amended approval from the board okay thank we're going to open this up to public comment so stay stay there Mr Frank because you may have some comments to add so um we'll open up a public comment um l in the front row and up dark hair glasses on her head you step forward give your full name and and your address and you sworn Deborah paa 50 banro Lane hesport fir I do um first in April I had April 28th I had uh prepared a packet and on May 1st I had delivered it to the Joint land use board it was uh at the first meeting it was of May it was admitted as an exhibit exhibit L and uh I would just like to renew that um request that this that that packet be um admitted as an exhibit um I'm I'm objecting to this application and the basis is um as I understand it and I believe that Mr Miller is correct because I looked at the engineering plans lot 18 is going to be maintained by the HOA it's noted on the engineering plans um and as I understood Mr mil Mr um Taylor's question lot n is also supposed to be according to testimony from the applicant uh lot N9 is also supposed to be um maintained by the HOA I didn't hear anything about Lot 10 but um putting aside whether or not it's maintained by the uh HOA or by H uh the township my concern is the Clean Water Act and in the packet that I had submitted and and this is an issue I had brought before the township Comm committee back in August of 2022 uh there was a case that was decided it's a federal court case that was decided uh by the um third Circuit Court of Appeals it's a case that I was involved in it's called Shark River cleanup Coalition versus uh Wall Township and the estate of Fred McDow in that case um the uh Fred McDow owned a significant a sizable uh amount of wooded land next to the Shark River Wall Township just like in this situation took an easement and they put a pipe on that easement and that um years into the future there was a soil erosion under the Clean Water Act if you have sand and it discharges into navigable Waters that's a violation of the Clean Water Act the the the question is is it man-made or is it a natural occurrence if it's a natural occurrence it's there's no liability if it's man-made there's liability a hiker discovered this soil erosion reported it to the Shark River cleanup Coalition who sued both Wall Township and Fred McDow Fred mcdal stands in the same shoes as hesport Township and the HOA presuming that they are going to be maintaining this um this pipe they stand in the shoes of Wall Township we were able to successfully defend that lawsuit we got it dismissed only on a technicality the uh notices required under the clean water act were deficient even though we got it dismissed on a technicality Wall Township paid $200,000 to defend that lawsuit Fred McDow spent $100,000 to defend that lawsuit if they had been found liable under the Clean Water Act the part the uh the prevailing party is entitled to get their attorney's fees paid so let's say that that a a citizen brings a lawsuit and anybody can bring a lawsuit under the Clean Water Act if they find a violation they are entitled to get their attorney's fees paid wall wall townships was 200,000 so this citizen gets his his attorney's fees paid that's 200,000 now we're at 400,000 yes you still have to remediate the pipe we don't know how much that's going to be and you still have to do remediation to the in this situation rankokus Creek you could be looking at $500,000 to a million in potential liability I seriously doubt that a a development of 41 senior citizens is going to be able to afford a $500,000 judgment or million dollars and if and assuming hesport gets sued they're going to have to pay that it's not a burden it's not a risk that should be imposed upon the the uh the taxpayers of hesport so for that reason um I object and I just want to um to to note that somebody on hesport happenings had said Pip's probably not going to break I think that you should talk to the residents of Anchor Court they have a pipe on their uh there that has broken three times in 20 years and each time a silt fence gets gets erected where the uh pipe goes into the uh into the retention Pond and here you know we could be we could be looking at a pipe that breaks nobody is aware of it and you've got all kinds of discharge of pollutants s uh soil sand whatever it is into the ranus creek and it's it could be a uh a very significant uh burden for the taxpayers of hesport so for that reason I object thank you ma'am um Mr Frank you want to address the third circuit want to address the third circuit opinion and the pipe I'll call it the pipe break issue well not really um but um I do want to uh address um U the the fundamental objection which is something which is not within the scope of what is Bo hearing signed tonight if if there's a genuine liability issue for the municipality I think that's something that's properly dealt with when the governing body addresses whether or not it's going to Grant a needs this body's here to decide things under the site plan and subdivision ordinance not to address Municipal liability concerns more properly the governing body and your administrators um so um as as far as that goes uh uh I don't really think that's that's what we're here to do tonight having said that I have a couple questions from this C if I may ask her a few questions M bli can you can you approach the microphone and I ask morning well what's the the approach councel what Miss P State the you're the witness so you stay at the microphone I you can limit it to that though okay I ask please bu this yes for the limited purpose uh that you've represented at the side [Music] Mar I think you are sworn actually yeah I am you SW okay I'm sorry M fire are you an attorney of law practice in state of Jersey yes I am are you here to seeing representing anyone no are you here in an individual capacity yes I am a resident of Hainesport I have lived here since 2014 and I I have the right under the uh Municipal land use law to object to make a statement I have the right under the US Constitution I have the right under the New Jersey Constitution you do I'm just trying to understand your position with regard to this application I am here in an individual capacity representing myself wonderful have you ever been here representing anyone other than yourself no no no okay I'd like to introduce an exhibits exhibit 83 I'm going to share copies of it with the board is that we spoke we discussed that yes it is okay thank you Mr chairman so Mark is it A3 [Music] yeah the exhibit will speak for itself you just going to have her identifi it yeah am I I don't think understand hear they gave away the answer this why I'm going to mark this as 83 this this is an email exchange you and I had in July of 2020 to yes that's it is um can you please read for me um Mr Frank is that necessary yeah uh we have the document we can the board can read it it speaks for itself now I you know I I want to I want everyone in this room to know what Mr Frank is attempting to do because he no wait a minute wait a minute stop you're not quarreling in front of the board on what you think the question should or shouldn't be I limited Council cross-examination of you which it is to let me finish okay to identifying this letter the contents of which we can all read it speaks for itself I'm going to limit council's cross examination to that unless you have something new to discuss well I don't need to cross disply then I'm going to read what she wrote to me in cor and I think it's very important because we're here about a settlement agre between parties that were involved in ation about effectuating that c and I do not believe that M supp should properly be objecting to that c for the reasons that are set for in the second paragraph on this page the exhibit is an is marked and it's in the record which paragraph Just identify it there's a second paragraph on page one which what you would like to read into the record but it's already in the record by virtue of it being marked so that's the end of that line of question good enough thank you very much may I make a brief statement briefly and it should be on point of what we just discussed I am a member of the a the Creek View HOA I am not an I am not on the board I am simply a resident not only am I a res am I a member of the HOA I am a resident of the township of hesport the the Creek View was represented by John J Novak he is the attorney of record Mr Frank knows that although he was not the attorney who was involved in that litigation but he is very much aware because he has been sending all of the documentation to Mr Novak's office in Toms River New Jersey okay thank you thank you all right any other Mr I just can't let that stand I'm very sorry but but in this correspondence from an attorney to an attorney about a matter that was pending before this board Mr Mr Frank I'm not sure that I'm not sure that this back and forth is relevant to the issues that we have here today to decide to be honest with you Mr chairman I I must object to your baring this from being read into the record so that everyone in the room can know what it is that I'm talking about it's a public it's it's now been marked as an exhibit um everyone in the room can come read it as an exhibit what if somebody in the audience wants to comment about it Council we're done okay thank you very much Mr chair all right any other lady with a hand up on the left side halfway back yes yes you were the lady with the hand up I think yeah you said left side well your your other left I your name uh Janice Len and I'm speaking on behalf of the um hesport Township environmental commission I have a letter that um I have copies for everybody that I can pass out l u d d e n sure we'll mark that uh we'll mark that exhibit as um exhibit B exhibit B Mr Frank do you have a copy of this uh we received one late today yes okay from today yeah all right Mr Lon this is a letter from the commission dated April 6 2024 to this board sorry is that correct yes Bob do you have a copy of this you guys got a copy yes it appears to be add well it says hesport Township joint land use board did I get did I get the wrong letter or I just said your committee members but board members is more appropriate well it does take committee members after that the address is to the board it is to you guys and maybe to the committee as well um my understanding is that the easement has not been approved by the township yet is that true I think that I think I think that's a correct understanding so I I'm just going to preface with I don't know how we can approve a plan with the condition that if they can't manage the storm water on the property how we can approve a plan that requires an easement um you know unless that that is already approved is my opinion um but I will just read the letter so at the our meeting on the 31st our committee reviewed the final development site plan for Long Bridge Estates the Amman senior citizen let let me just interrupt the letter is now in evidence and it's it's a long letter it is a long letter we it would be preferable if you could uh summarize it for us sure um basically we object to the easement through the park we actually um just saw the plan um last th Wednesday um we took a field trip on Saturday through the park there is um a lot of um completely undisturbed areas in the park um basically um there's Parts in there that talk about how rean design group's assessment of the property was that it was a surprising treasure and 0.1 um it's remained a Haven it's it's very unique um it's rare to see this much undisturbed land the park is um a Bend creek creek turn is the turn and where this pipe currently in the plans that I saw is proposed to come is right at the bend so if you're on the ran ccus your view as you come around the bend of hesport will be you know this concrete structure that supports this 18in pipe um as you're walking along the trail at the top you will see the disturbance of that um I couldn't see from the plans whether there's been any inventory of the trees that would be affected by this but there's a lot of very mature trees 150y old trees that have been there longer than canesports been Incorporated there's animals that live there but the summary is that Creek turn Park um is allows hesport to preserve this natural resource as part of the environment in our town for the benefit of all of our residents now and for future Generations land belongs to the residents of hesport as our view it should not be devalued for the profits of a single business individual or family although the DP of New Jersey has given its approval does not mean it's in our best interest of our town um I realize that the denial of the easement is not under this board's thing um but in my opinion the reason why that you can't manage the storm water on the site is because they're cramming in 41 units into a small small area currently the land is taking in all the rain water and it's staying on the site so it depends on how much you put onto that site and then I know the plan was pre-approved prior when we looked at it um we did notice that there are recommended Street trees that are non-native um the Norway spruce and the zaka um are both of those are listed as invasive on New Jersey's Strike Team so I would recommend that those those trees be replaced with something um I also have that written down as a secondary item yes yes um now your commission uh has how many members we have um seven well five that are appointed and then we have two representatives from the township committee that sit in with us and I assume this letter was sent after a vote of the commission yes we were everybody that was at the meeting discussed it agreed at formal vote I don't know what you're mean but yes I have members here if they can confirm so no I just your representation I'm representing the that's just fine um while you're up here on the street tree issue Scott what is that um we will do I'm not aware that newway Spruce where is alado either of those are listed as invasive species so I will follow up on that and if the applicant is willing and agreeable um we will double check uh the New Jersey website if the African would agree to create it to do a species substitution we can then facilitate that in future we'll certainly agree to substit neither of those are native and um I'm aware I'm aware that they're not native just um I'm not aware that either one of those is listed as uh originally so their original one of their street Tre species or platinoid which is Norway maple which is most definitely an invasive species agre the plan has since been revised to eliminate that in place of will which as you know is um but we will follow up with this list with the opportun facilate they are and the applicant agrees to swap out trees if necessary absolutely yes I have a question by of course did you perform a a uh a land survey of the area that would be affected by the what do you mean by land survey did the surveyor go out there in Mark did a surve well um no no not not I was not a surveyor I did not hire a surveyor I am a volunteer but um I did not see any survey plans I did not see on your site plan anything marked out as any of the existing trees I did not see any of that on the site plan we did what we could do in the amount of time that we had to um there's pictures on the back this park is is is a beautiful Park the part that you're talking about going through has been undisturbed for um you know a lot longer than any of us have been here and it would be nice to preserve it for a lot longer than understood um just to understand um how much area is proposed in the in the area propos clear um I on the plan that I saw it was a 20t wide straight from your property to the creek how it's um I actually calculated the E the area and at the creek it has to flare out because of the additional disturbance it's 0.24 Acres less than one4 just under let me ask you a question if you had a Lamborghini and I scratched the rear quarter panel would would that be okay even though it's just a small percentage of your Lamborghini well I I would suggest that hold clapping till the end please that the Lamborghini was scratched a long time ago when columus came to these Shores and all of us at our homes and shopping centers and all over this time all right so Mr Franks be careful what you ask for next time but if I I I'm asking for that because I'm asking for a comparison I put up here your image from of your concept Park yes that's all previously cleared land there's existing and and we're talking about an area that has not been and there a Trails shown in that area you're saying you know what you know what the difference between a trail and putting in a pipe that you have to equipment to put the pipe and make sure the pipe is maintainable versus somebody walk walking around trees when you put a path in you avoid the big huge bullet Lo that's been there for 150 years did you hear our conversation I have been there it's very dense it's very difficult to put just a curve in a pipe and avoid what is that there so I a right I have a right at our commission has a right most disagree with and for your in my opinion I would say 41 units just don't fit in there got somebody approv all right anyone else thank you ma'am appreciate that have two people fellow in the front row PL sh hi my name is Steve morona I'm a resident of banro Avenue 16 bankr last name w o r o n w o r o n o and Corona with a w war okay you swear absolutely Corona doesn't sound bad right now sorry Mr chair it's all right I'm a simple man I live over here I see beautiful trees beautiful land for water can I move this that one one point to make we're here for a lot of nonsense talking about the uh the the the the the layout the layout plan 41 houses if we would say simply to remove the center houses and they got an attention P that would work but the reason why it won't work is because the developers want to build multiple housing to get multiple profit dollars at the expense of future board members future generation this is the problem if we simply believe housing we could put a bigger retention P we wouldn't have to put a pipe in and destroy a lot of land around that pipe got heavy machinery down there now the attorney mentioned that about trees I would assume a site survey has to be done and it has to specify every tree that's in that location I built the house once on Sat I all that way is we had to have a survey that was so detailed and there were certain trees we couldn't even touch because they were rare we couldn't touch them we couldn't take them down so now if I was to put a pipe here and these trees are here here here how what do I do I go around it it doesn't make sense all right well Scott can we address the tree issue um to the extent that it's practical there are some limitations within the alignment of of uh of pipes and man holes for the storm water to still function um but the applicant has agreed to work with our office and I would like Mr Miller involved in that as well um to work on the alignment for that final alignment to minimize um the removal of of specimen trees um it is likely that there will be vegetation that has to be removed just as when the park gets developed or any home gets built there will need to be some tree removals specimen trees being trees of what size well I don't want to characterize because there hasn't been a I have not walked this alignment I have walked a good portion of the park property on multiple uh occasions so there are some mature specimens out there trying to avoid those um obviously the larger the tree the older it is uh it is more difficult to mitigate for those trees we can do and there there are requirements for locating those trees and also for mitigating uh the removal of those trees for replanting under the municipalities both existing um and recently adopted uh tree protection ordinances they will have to comply with those the goal here though you don't want to take down a large Tre that can be avoided the applicant has um agreed to uh work with the board of Township professionals to minimize that disturbance so that's the answer to your tree question that's the tree question but why not just reduce the number of homes and build a bigger retention P that would eliminate the pipe upsetting future generations of our children you understand I assume that the previous approvals not being Revisited today what's being visited today are the storm water issues that we've discussed at some length that's all that's been trying to say why can't that property be made to attain its own water me as a resident here I can't add onto my house and keep adding on because my land has to retain so much absorption right why aren't these houses following that same stipulation what what was the reason why the diamond Diner and like where the I don't know if this is Pep Boys or whatever is built over there they had Retention Ponds over there and they were built to adequate size to the building that their property sits on correct now they're building all these units over here we're minimalizing the absorption time for what what reason what I I don't I don't get that because it's it's money there's a lot of money involved over cut down on the number of houses put a bigger retention pond in and we eliminate all this disturbing the Earth ruining the creek you know people dump all kinds of crap into these sewers and it's going to feed right into the ran HS and it's going to affect us you know water absorbs into the Earth also when I built the house on Stan out we had to put a dryw in for every unit we built they had to be if it was a semi house you had a 12T in the 12T a 24t wide unit we had to put maybe two 8T diameter rings in they had to be at least 8 to 10 FTP which we got inspected they need percolation and boring to make sure that they would absorb the water and they weren't frous they're being used over there why why would they be called frivolous and useless here I don't get that they have different zoning different ground different absorption I don't think no I'm just I'm not taking their position but I don't think they they describe them as frivolous they describe them as in addition to one G said they' be basically be useless there's no need for um I I didn't I didn't hear I didn't hear useless being being used as a as a description that's right so okay well that's right but I'm just saying that this whole thing could be eliminated eliminate some houses simple appreciate your position thank you very much there was another fellow behind you purple shirt please come forward Bruce Alderman 202 Lumberton Road uh so yeah Bruce Alderman a d e r m a n d e r m a n [Music] I do uh want to give you my background a little bit uh so I have a master's degree in environmental engineering and been doing 30 years of working water treatment industry um I really appreciate the efforts of Mr Taylor and Mr Miller obviously we've been doing good technical work as well as the appli it's very clear to all sorry again just to repeat appreciate all the efforts of Mr Taylor Mr Miller and the applicant it's very clear that from a technical perspective everything has been done from an appropriate uh manner here so far I just wanted to speak to uh the rest of the uh board here uh for so that the Layman can have an understanding a little bit about the outfall a little bit further you know there may be a perception that the outfall is something simplistic with an 18in pipe uh the the fact of the matter is that when we come to that 35 ft drop all of the 35 ft drop that they're talking about from the you know the housing to the ran ccus is in the last 35 ft so it's a very steep slope that they're having to stabilize there so it is a very challenging outfall that they're having to deal with and it will actually have a very wide impact on what that outfall looks like for stabilization and for rip wrap and for all of that so very technically possible everything is going to be clearly done and done appropriately but just want to talk about the Aesthetics so that everybody is aware that we're not talking about like the church if you remember a couple years ago when they had their storm water outfall to the ran ccus where you're talking about something about the size of the desk here you're talking about something that's 30 ft wide and 30 ft long a very large impactful view of what that outfall will look like so again very technically clear but it's going to be a large impact on that bin of what the appearance of the outfall is so just just for review all right thank you Mr Frank you examine the actual SS I draw I haven't I haven't had the opportunity to see the the you know the application okay I just wanted to make that very clear I haven't seen the drawing thank you Mr apprciate um if I may just point something out to the board about what we just heard well you have witness testimony on that all right well why don't why don't we just just get the rest of the public comment and then if if you have any additional witness testimony on the public comment we can hear that anybody else from the public who's present here uh wish to comment or be heard Mr McKay if I could just point out we do have members of the public online yeah I'm I'm I'm aware of that and I just I'll just get to them in in a minute I did see a hand go up way in the back uh yes ma'am please come forward my name is Jamie Brooks and I'm a resident for 20 years I live on Hastings Lane 76 Hastings Weir Tes I do your name again please Jamie j a i m e last name is Brooks b r o o k s M Brooks just just bend that microphone down a little bit that's good okay your last name again d r o o KS okay I just I just wanted to go on the record that based on the risks of erosion and things like that I I really I object to this okay thank you lady uh yeah yes oh I didn't even see I didn't even see that let me take you the with the the plaid top Deborah Harris h a r r i s Deborah DB a s Elenor Drive youir testimony will be the I do I'm also an attorney I do not represent anyone I am here as a resident as per my address I'm Deputy general counsel to um a very large insurance company and I deal with risk a lot I also deal with a lot of Executives and in my daily job one of my main responsibilities is to speak risk in terms of like stuff that a toddler could understand like bullet points okay so while I understand that what you're saying is that liability is not within the purview of this particular testimony and hearing and discussion I do think that it is something that should be in the back of your mind given all of the statements and testimony that has been given by the public thus far Mrs Pia Mr Alderman Janice Len I think they've all done a wonderful job of presenting a variety of different challenges in regards to the positioning of this property the positioning of the pipe the cliff that it hangs over um some of the Native species as well as an easement being required the disturbance of a large portion of um the territory that's over there that's going to be potentially a par under the Clean Water Act you know I'll I'll just say it this way like I understand that there's contract negotiations that been going on for a couple of years right I mean I do contracts day in and day out they take a really long time to Iron out there is always nuances but at the end of the day there are certain things that you cannot contract away and while you can try and Dot your eyes and cross your teas and try and ensure that the appropriate parties have the liability as a plaintiff and under the Clean Water Act federal government allowed for standing of citizens so I could come in off the street notice a problem which is why Miss Pia's case is so important to you because anybody a kayaker anybody could notice that there's a problem oh my gosh 7 ft underneath that 30ft pipe 3 years later is starting to reod from you know the drifting right I mean you know canyons are formed by this type of thing it takes time it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when and I would put a bookmark in that that's what I tell my Executives all the time these things are not a matter of if they're a matter of when you could try and contract your liability away but at the end of the day if I'm a plaintiff I'm going to do a shotgun lawsuit I'm going to put all of your names on a document I'm going to March you all down and the process of discovery that you have to pay for that's going to be problematic for you you you could say well I've got insurance great folks like me I'm speaking now and you are interrupting um so if the chair wants to recognize you you need the chair please stop if I say ask you to stop abely would appreciate it if you would stop Mr Frank your objection is noted ma'am your your your comments are getting a little bit um off the points here and um a little bit argumentative I think I'm happy why don't you wrap up I'm happy to bring them home for you so amongst the testimony that I heard that it's relevant for you is there's not really a plan my understanding is that the njde permit is conditional upon your approval so I'm not really sure that that's really an approval I would suggest that there be some type of double-checking of that the park needs a trail needs an access road so the pipe's going to be curved to potentially you know provide for aesthetic leing rails um hting of the easement to the township it's kind of a hot potato we already talked about the liability the easements between the lawyers understand that um the maintenance is going to be for the HOA it's already being worked on you know 41 seniors practically speaking I I I don't know how much the developers are really going to fund that HOA Fund in order for folks to be able to maintain a storm water pipe of the magnitude that we're talking about here when it's a matter of if and not when so basically what I've heard in summary is that it's not really a plan and you guys are really the only obstacle between this happening and you know the potential ramifications down the road whatever they are the environment the species the funding the liability for the tax payers you guys are the last fashion and that's why all of these people are either here today in this room and they can raise their hand if they're here for this and potentially online and they want to be heard and they want you to act in their best interests and they're saying that there's not a plan it's too many houses there's too many ifs ends whats there's too many well we'll figure it out it's not a good plan and you guys should not approve it thank Youk you my name is Susan Crow c r o we for Anchor Court I live in the Creek View development Lakeside um thank you Susan s u n thank you for the opportunity to speak um I moved to hesport in 2001 and was drawn to this beautiful area we live in a beautiful development with trees Wildlife a beautiful Lake our kids all fish and enjoy it the diner came in we were very excited about it we knew that there was land behind it and have noticed recently there's markings on trees we know what's going to be put down uh or cut down I have a couple of concerns just four items I wanted to discuss obviously the Retention Ponds our development has become the retention Pond development of hesport you have a new development that's in across from the entry to the pepo right where the U-turn is huge retention fund between that new little Cove where they cram 16 homes and uh the Lakeside development now you're asking on across the street in front of the diner and next to there's the big attention pond in front of that now we're going to add another one behind the actual residents that live on wardon which I think is really intrusive to where they live um it's also going to be really not pretty to look at I wouldn't want that behind my home I have to be honest with you I live at the bottom of the hill of bankr lane at a three-way stop sign when it rains it pours and that street Anchor Court into bangro Lane where all that storm water goes and goes out into the ran ccus that pipe has collapsed four times in the 22 years that I've lived here they have torn up my neighbor's yard four times to replace that pipe and they do put the silk and and do all of those things but the disruption to that street and to our neighborhood is really um it's a lot to take and the street repairs have never been completed the other part of this is the traffic flow that's going to result as you add 41 more homes that speed down bankr Lane on a daily basis and I can ask you guys to put a radar out there I can tell you they're not going 25 and it is an absolute cut through for everybody that lives in Lumberton Sage run hesport Chase come through our neighborhood so now we're going to add 41 more houses lastly the Aesthetics of this development you have a new road for this new development that you just put in off of Route 38 and now you're going to add another Street here it doesn't even but up to the new street that was put in so aesthetically this looks pous in my opinion I wouldn't want to live here you're deteriorating the property all of the people that live in the Lakeside Community in my opinion it's not pretty it doesn't look steing to anybody um particularly me and I'm sure plenty of the residents here so lastly this pipe and I'm listening I'm not an attorney I'm a resident um so what I understand is that the HOA of this community which still has to be developed right the these have to be set sure so fees have to still be set for what that HOA is going to be right I know what we pay I don't know if everybody here has an HOA but we have a nice one it's not cheap but we do have to pay for it so these are all senior citizens on fixed incomes that are going to live in these homes I don't know that they're going to be able to afford whatever the HOA assessment is that's going to be put upon them but the pipe that leaves their facility and goes into the town's property is the responsibility of everybody in hesport to pay for and we don't know what that's going to cost so I you know I'd like to understand what that's going to be if we have an idea of what that would cost and then lastly my understanding is that this pipe is just going to Jet out and drop 35 ft and if we have a storm and that water is dropping 35 ft um I also live where that lake is in Lakeside it floods okay so now you're going to add the runoff of 41 homes and the storm drainage because you're going to cut all the trees down that naturally absorb it and it's going to run into the r Focus so those are my concerns I'm not for for this community and I love the idea of reducing the number of homes and keeping the retention pond in the middle put 20 homes there don't put 40 thank you thank you man' so as one of the original homeowners in that development which was originally uh C and Quaker is that you talk about that you were happy the diner came a lot of these residents have not been here this long I know Deborah has been obviously yourself did anybody not realize what that property was originally supposed to be used as I don't know okay and I'm going to explain that to you that actually was a commercial site and at that time the intensity of that site which was permitted if somebody came with a permitted use would have been a lot worse than today those guidelines for D regulations in general for soils 20 plus years ago were not as they are today as we all know in 2018 the New Jersey D has drastically Chang St Mor management regulations for everybody through the state so what I want a lot of people to understand is that and many of you may not have known that was a commercial site that according to our master plan and we were trying to make all of Route 38 commercial it since has then changed just imagine what you would have been through if you had 5 plus thre story Office Buildings which were permitted with all those items and D be less restrictive on it no disrespect but I wouldn't have let home there's my point ma'am so a lot of people don't do their due diligence to find find out what vacant properties are zoned because if that had been done it may have changed your mind as well as many of these other people so anybody's allowed to develop their Lots I understand that I so I listen everybody else gets to put their point on record and I'm going to after being here 22 years your development much like many of them were all farmlands they were sand pits they were everything else that original home home owners that were here were objective to that all of you live in at this point but respectfully is that the point is is that lot was and is still somebody's property that they can develop and the fact that at one time it was a commercial use would have affected your development a whole lot differently than 41 houses not opposing the development of the property I'm asking that it be done with the appropriate responsibility and maintenance and guidelines of the state of New Jersey all I understand your position ma'am thank you very much thank two people I saw gentleman in the back with the blue shirt and there somebody else on the other side take the blue shirt first since he stood up [Music] first Blood Burns 255 Foster Town Road I good evening Mr BR good evening you woke me up when you said that all theci stuff yeah I've been here since 1978 so I do remember all this commercial stuff I was on planning board with Tom back in the 90s so I do remember a lot of this stuff and how things were growing ball growing around me HB Chase wasn't there it's it's life but everything I just heard one thing is this drain plate everybody's talking that is there any way that make people feel a little bit more at ease by putting an insurance policy or esro to fix this thing when it does break cuz it sounds like just history of breaking so I'm I'm not going to concede that this will break sir respectfully but but I was also a B fter for 47 years yeah I think I think this is concrete pipe though do that to um so that's one of the most significant topics that the C solicitor and I are trying to work through is exactly how do we secure and I said that at the intro how do we secure the obligation of the HOA to maintain the pipe and to keep the town from having any liability um in the event that we need maintenance or anything so we're working on that it you know what we're here tonight about though is compliance with the site plan subdivision ordinance of the township right do we or don't we meet the standards and we put the testimony of our engineers in we do meet those standards and respectfully it's not an illegitimate concerns and we're going to deal with that but in a different form in a different way it's not really what this board do but did you prove things how does this get rectified well it becomes a condition of this board's approval that the um governing body actually Grant the easement that we're talking about to insert pipe into and I'm pretty confident that the members of your governing body and and your mayor who SI here are listening carefully to the people in the audience who have these concerns and they're going to make very very sure that when the agreement is in fact struck if it is in fact struck that um the town is adequately protected the responsibility lies with the HOA and not that's what I think we're ask you for thank you you're welcome L I wake you up um I see a hand in the back gentleman white shirt please come forward my name is Alex d'angeles 40 Edge Drive hesport New Jersey d e a n g e l i s again d a n g e l i s 40 Edge Order Drive first name Alex Al XM T here will be yes I do I just want to bring a point up to the fact that I'm an original homeowner from 2004 we moved in in June in 2004 and in July of 2004 the lake overflowed and it came all the way up to my house going into my basement and the township everyone was at my house this wasn't supposed to happen it's a 100-year flood it wasn't supposed to be the situation I understand progress I understand things have to be built it's there's no there's no doubt about it this is we w't be here today we didn't have it my concern is water the fact that we've all seen Lumberton overflow we've all seen the streets of the main street down there overflow we see the creek overflow we see my lake has overflowed onto my property to the fact almost washed out every late house on that Lake it just concerns me it's like the storm Bas is going to be built for a 100-year flood blah blah blah but if it's to that point it's going to overflow into tanuka's crate which is going to overflow even more something that can't handle it I just fear that this water being just mismanaged being dumped into a creek that's overflowing as it begins when it we have a flood which I've seen because I've lived it the fact that more water going into it is going to cause more of a problem for Lumberton and for all the houses around the lake that's just my concern because if I didn't live through it I probably wouldn't even understand it but try to understand you just bought a brand new 4,000 ft house not even in there a month and all of a sudden this water is up to your house and they're knocking you on your door telling you to get out before the house is going to take your stuff out cuz looters are going to come and get before you're going to lose your house you just put all this money you just got a mortgage and it scared the hell out of me and every time I hear more water going into the ranus creek or going into the lake whatever it just scares me that's all that's all I wanted to appreciate that uh any anyone else anyone else well gentlemen yeah left side hi my name is Rich castler c a s l r and I live on five Tide Water Court testimony tonight truth yes so I'd like to ask a question if um is this property currently multi-purpose zoned so if this wasn't approved is there a chance that there would be commercial property going in there no can I ask well no Kathy please um can the planner address that um you could you restate yeah so if this wasn't approved by the board and then this property was available again could a commercial property Enterprise to answer that he's asking he he's asking basically what it's zone for presently uh without uh a variance application so the property is within just so I can get recitation correct bear with me so it is technically called the senior citizen District the proposed use is a permitted use do not have the exhausted the exhausted list of uh what any of the other permitted uses are from my memory I do not believe that um commercial uses are principally permitted uses on this okay so then if it was not approved only another maybe senior citizen or residential development could go in that was approved is that correct so what is proposed is a permitted use the senior citizen Community the density does comply with the zoning um and as indicated by Council the the 41 units have have been approved and and we're here tonight for the really the disposition of the St water management issue and the only other thing I have is um in regards to the storm waterer management issue um I think you made a great point that the DP has changed their rules tremendously in 20 years so if we would walk down the road 20 years from now what might not be approved of the current B storm management system that's good point thank you very much Mr chairman if I can just I I do have a copy of ordinance section 104-88 the senior citizen District um chapter B says development standards within the senior citizen District the following conventional requirement shall apply section one permitted uses the following are permitted uses a single family detached homes B Town Homes SL Twin Homes C public and private educational Recreation facilities and then conditionally permitted uses under uh section 1.1 include General commercial uses subject to the standard that's defined in 10441 and office us subject to the standards as 104-43 so only residential uses are principally permitted but uh there are non-residential uses that are conditionally permitted town houses are among the the uh residential uses that AR okay I hope that's clear to everybody um okay second row lady with a tan sweater hi I'm Jennifer Kane C NE e like candy cane and I Kane C NE e yes I reside at 10 Co yes what was your add up at ten Cod Port Port New Jersey and I am also an original resident since 2004 of Lake s Creek View um I want to go on record that I have oppose placement of the drain on public use I understand what you're saying that they own property and they can develop that property I'm opposed to placing anything on public land that then is going to affect likely my taxes I live within Lakes size and as Alex has mentioned we had that 100-year storm that prop came all the way up also to all the way to our property line up to our doors all that water and then also I've seen the pipe within Lakeside of Creek maintenance three or four times in the last 20 years and that cost on public land I'm not sure who pays for that unless the developer or the Township board has offered to say hey I'm going to be bear the cost of all of that maintenance going forward for the rest of the time of also walk the property many times back in there it is completely undisturbed there are enormous trees and wild laugh back there and I can't see that you can place any kind of equipment back there and not disturb hundreds of trees as you go to all the way to the creek and then down that drop oh thank you thank you thank you Mr board a board member has a question question I've heard several of you say that the there's been problems with un Anchor Court with the storm water pipes and they had to be replaced like four times who paid for that yeah but so were the were the own assessed for that or was it covered by insurance I was just wondering will you assess spe specifically for th those repairs and Replacements anybody wasn't there well that's just a I think uh respectfully that that nobody can seem to have a definitive answer to that question all right so we'll we'll move on okay um any other hands here yes sir can forward BL shirt I have some handouts I'd like to present to the j u board your name first my name is John Kane C tan Cove Court you must be Mrs Kane's husband I am um sir before you say anything I do first what is what is this handout please well I just want to say one thing um it's pretty impossible to argue with Kathy because she's really great but um you know that's she's talking about something from like 20 25 years ago that I don't think that's relevant now what the zoning was 25 years ago well I do that's why I express that okay well what is that that your handing out please explain that to me I have three items I have a petition that I already submitted to the township and the jail UB um in late April actually on May 1st I hopefully got a copy but if not I I have a copy I have some copies but not enough for everyone and I have a presentation I created and then I also want to give the letter that um was done by the township um Paula Costco had had had this done for the Kleiner property uh that says what a amazing piece of property it is um and I'd like to just read some quotes from that letter um so I want to submit that that you guys are educated on what amazing piece of property it is and what a sin a sin would be uh to to cut through it um I think you can I think you can safely let me let me just finish let me deal with this I think you can safely assume from the poster in the lobby if from nothing else that the board is very familiar with the client of property very true um and so I'm Happ Happ to uh to mark that um that document and we can make it an exhibit and we will make an exhibit um but rather than read it I'd prefer if you simply I'm not going to read the whole thing now summarize it yes absolutely all right as for the other the petition speaks for itself you say you you you've tendered it earlier yes I'll just so we'll accept a we'll accept a copy and we'll mark it today uh but again um if we've previously received it um we don't need to read it in its entirety today no I'm not going to read it I just want to submit it it has a lot of signatures from me U citizens of hesport that this Mr Frank uh I I I see standing to object we're going to Mark these three exhibits and um I'd ask uh uh Mr uh I I'd ask the witness to uh to keep his Remar marks controlled and limited so that we have enough time to move to other people ask thetion is simply not eval in context I'm sure Mr kingsberry will explain that to us you have a petition can't accept that so so legal reason is the people want they have to be here and object and nobody can cross-examine a petition so it's it can't be accepted by the board if you have a letter from somebody else who's not here that can't be accepted because Mr Frank can't ask questions with the person who wrote the letter so that's not accept so the all the people that sign this you're silencing their voices then by not accepting this okay that's govern they have to be here if they want to Mr Council I we're going to mark that petition we're going to we're going to take it Council has appropriately designated the petition as not really relevant uh but to understand your position we'll look at it it's it's hearsay it's objected to by Council and I knew you're Rising again Mr chairman it can go into the board's records as having been submitted to the board but respectfully it canot reviewed by this board as evidence did I say that I don't think I I don't think I did I got the impression from were saying that per to be distributed MERS and reviewed I did I ever say that I don't think I did I think I said that we would mark it and we'd receive it and it would be dealt with pursuant to guidance from counsel all right and what's the third thing you want to Mark you said there were three things um the letter and then I I have a I did also walk I'm a member of the hesport township environment's the third document the third document is a presentation it's actually going to show you who did it I made it okay and you and you want to testify about that presentation yes you're going to summarize it for us it has it's pictures of what is going to get listen to my question you're going to summarize it for us yes I'm going to summarize it all right we'll mark those we'll mark those three documents as exhibits c d e and e and give it to council take the look [Music] at and walk a copy over to council our our council's office our council's desk please and you have copies to distribute to uh to our professionals yes please do so that istion [Music] a study that was done by the township the township it says all right please back to the mic excuse me Mr M can I also get a copy of all three of them for the file yes this is a petition okay letter can BC petition can be D and the presentation can be can I next can I get approach your board and give them this now no no with the clerk clerk has it um now all right you want to summarize your your presentation I'll tell you what the first page well the letter says that basically this is unbelievable pristine lands that are from like prehistoric times the Sands and everything um that's some of the the gist of it uh actually let me I have a brief statement um all right well let stop we're going to you're going to summarize the presentation okay the presentation is this is the area and everything that is circled in yellow is either under development or is going to be development it's developable lands it's all on the ran cookus Creek Bhed so if all of this happens in addition to this we're basically destroying the water shed um and it shows where the waterers shed is in New Jersey and all of the development including the pipeline um then there's pictures then there's some verbiage of of the Kleiner letter that says you know what pristine lands is um and then then there is also some pictures of trees that are in that pathway so this this this will give you without having to go back there this will show you what's going to be cut down and what it's what's going to replace it so this is really what I'd like to be focused on right here so I'd like to give each one of you this and this this beautiful Woodlands on the cliff this is a cliff that goes straight down about 50 ft so all of this is going to be clearcut and it's going to be replaced by that you took all these pictures yourself yes just just you can hand that out to the board that's exhibit um what we say that was B that was e CDE okay that exib Mr Kane have you with that are you have you concluded um I think so I just want to that I object to this project okay have you now concluded yes okay he's watch your step there with the wire yeah please don't okay all right have you concluded now Mr Kane uh yes um and I also one more thing I don't want my property taxes to go up because of this of having to maintain this fight I don't I don't approve of that very well thank you very much thank you Mr chair may I ask a question absolutely thank you um the lake that you have now that collects the storm water from your community where does that ultimately discharge to when it overflows that discharges into the ran hookus Creek okay thank you but it's it's not a down it's not only a ancient uh Cliff uh overlooking the most scenic part of vanan cookus Creek like this this town had the foresight to buy that land Creek turn Park it's an amazing piece of land if you read the study from Kleiner it tells you how amazing it is it's untouched ranok ranok State Park that had the same kind of Clips but in the 18 the late 1800s it was mined all the sand and clay and everything was removed and the cliffs were d destroyed this is actually still exists so basically we're going to repeat stake of history and we're going to cut into something that we were smart enough to try and preserve and we're going to destroy it by putting a big pipe and outfall on it thank you sir lady in the back Samantha lovan Samantha loveman l o yep and love man l o v e m a n i do 2514 Creek Road thank you um I'm going to diverge a little but by promises a reason I live on the Creek Road that's going to have the 72 units for the affordable H housing um and so for me at the end of the day there's a reason there's going to be 72 units and that is to abide by the New Jersey affordable housing so at the end of the day there's a a reason and these affordable housings are going to go to people that desperately need housing my question is everyone keeps bringing up why does it have to be 41 units this the affordable housing that complete sense we need to abide by those rules otherwise our Township will be taken to court essentially so what about this one has to be 41 units which then makes us have to essentially destroy our our open Green Space that we worked so hard to try and get funding for and to to just have and why do we have to do that it is it just for profit and then they profit leave and we never see them again and the Township's left with a mess I ask our plan to address the density issue on the property um the the number of units at 41 doesn't comply with the density okay it applies with the density but at the end of the day it doesn't comply with the water management we have to we have to agree to that as as a town and if we agree to that then you're doing a disservice to the residents that are clearly here um thank you thank thank you anyone else seeing well sir I've called on you once before I was just going to answer just a comment about the lake nope lady in the back blonde hair straight back oh two blonde hair you both have blonde hair in the light in the in the light blue light blue top I'm going to spell my name first name is Carol with a K yeah k a r o correct last name is kempy k e m is and Mary P is and Peter k e i do address hting oh no I'm on Winchester oh my God I'm on Winchester Court your house number please five thank you so I am an original owner 2002 be a couple of You by two years um I oppose this in the sense that I understand that you will pay or have the owners of these unit pay through their HOA for the drain pipe and anything that happens and that's probably good for the first year maybe the second but after that I think we all know in the back of our minds it's going to come back on us and as a property owner I pay enough in taxes for my little postage size stamp yard and I don't want any increasing taxes due to this I also like most people in here agree with the drainage I mean please address the board sorry I'm trying to address them too my back to them they can hear you they can hear you um I also oppose the drainage and the gentleman whoever spoke about taking out the middle houses and using that as a drain I think that's brilliant if we have to have that development that's the smart way to go yes what y oh um but I do have a question cuz I'm a little unclear has this development been approved yes okay I understand that what happens if we don't approve and who's going to well let me start with this who gets to approve or who will approve the drain thing will that be you or will it be the township of hesport this board has before the drainage proposal so this board the jlv will approve it this board has before it the proposal and so you get to do the approval or the'll take a vote on you take a vote on it with all of you members we'll take a vote on it and do you include us is resident no you do not have a vote the panel this committee this as you want to maybe call it committee or U board has the vote to approve or disapprove the proposal for the drainage that has been presented tonight the easan issue will be for another day for Township committee so by us saying cuz I know you won't accept the petition so I felt like I had to stand up but by us coming up here and saying we do not approve this means what do the board members means that individual board members will take that under advisement in deciding how to vote and that includes everyone at these table no it includes it it includes the board members not not our secretary not our professionals so it includes you raise your hands if it includes you so I know who you are I mean just for no other reason than I'm curious it includes the make it simple for you it includes the board members okay no comments please while we're talking you wouldn't talk over somebody else if you it includes those members who on the roll call this morning first thing at the meeting answered yes okay right so I ask all of you who will approve or disapprove to please listen to us as the residents of hesport that I'm assuming most of the people if not all in this room are not in agreement with that drain or disturbing the peace of nature that we have so that's it thank you done you're welcome single hand up in the back please hi paan p u l a u h l a n d u h l a n d yes good evening everyone I'm Paula yolan I live in Creek Woods I've been there for 30 years and I really love the town the neighborhood I appreciate what you you all are doing tonight and every night to do this I live very close to a very similar outfall and I'm going to give you my opinion as a resident for 30 years I'm on the hensor township environmental commission for 17 years I'm a certified rers Master Gardner I'm a certified Rucker um environmental Steward I'm a certified storm Rucker storm water management so I come here with uh a love for the township and appreciation for what you all do I have a very similar outfall very close to where I live and it's in the Beacon Hill development it's at the end of Longfellow and it's a very steep drop from street level down to the creek and there's a tremendous erosion problem and I want to make you all aware of that because that can be remediated and in this situation if you all approve this uh plan tonight I really want to ask you to when you are seeding it planting the soil that's going to go over the pipe can you please use native grasses native shrubs native trees they will work better in that environment which is absolutely beautiful and I'm just want to ask you to use native plants going forward they will work better they will um blend into the environment easier and our as they get big our birds and animals will be able to feed there live there so I'm asking can we please do a good job if this plan is approved and really pay attention to the materials that are used to cover the pipe and make it work better thank you for your comments the point uh that I'll make is that a previous um Committee Member uh for the environmental commission you're are you president on the commission yes or you're president on the commission I'm I'm on the commission right you're presently on the commission yes I thought you were saying so you were a person who was partly responsible for the letter we received earlier from the commission okay so you heard the comments about using native grasses shrubs and um uh the soil conservation issues that were discussed yes okay so all right thank you for your time thank you Mr chair may I ask a question absolutely thank you Paula hi it's a trifecta here I love it um as the ms4 coordinator for hesport Township I do have a question about the outfall the pipe erosion issue at the end of Long Fellow is that a direct outfall like does the storm water collect in the basins and then directly outfall out into the so it's a direct source it's not going into a basin and then if there's a 100-year flood which is only going to happen then it's going to utilize no that pipe so it's a direct source it's a straight run okay and uh the erosion is pretty serious sure I mean it's constant storm water runoff that's flowing into that so the soil erosion absolutely is is going to happen is there anybody checking that out besides the township like does is there an HOA in your community or okay it is Township property that's it's in the 10 acres that township owns yes so um no not to my knowledge okay okay thank you right thank you thank you ma'am appreciate it any other comments clewell t i d w l l t i d w w e l l y one with a K uh I live on I do address what's your address address 24 Edgewater since 2001 yes I'm old we are C we're all over we're all um uh I'm worried and I do oppose this in that um I appreciate what Kathy said but I do believe in the rush to um build the community not a lot was thought put into the fact that it is very difficult to stabilize that area the soil you even commented that that it was a sand pit ET your development yeah yeah so a lot of that area um so it's a concern if there is a problem um and then what follows also is uh the cost and I know that Alex spoke about the flood uh when the dams uh broke back in 2004 I believe seven or eight oh yeah um so we do incur Rising HOA costs and we also incur um cost of flood insurance so I mean there there are costs um and Beyond the en environmental and Beyond the um concern of what happens if there is a problem and so um I just wanted to go on record as saying it's a beautiful Community um you know I've I've totally enjoyed living there and um it's disheartening to think uh what could happen and uh that's my concern thank you thanks for your time all right anyone else all right seeing no other hands we're going to go online one more hand got one more it's going to go on all night I know slow to raise your hand but that's all right CU I'm very nervous but I want to get this out okay um give us your name Sandra s a n d r a Monahan m o n a g h a n okay three Wharton pleas s Tes give yes I do I live at three Wharton place uh we purchased the house in 2003 so again I'm one of the original owners like most of the people here um I back up right to the area where they're proposing the development um I'm opposing the drain uh run off into the rink cookus Creek um also there's a lot of wild animals um species that I don't know which ones may be endangered uh but there are a lot of animals that do come into our property that I I've seen over the last 22 years but I do want to go on to record saying that I do oppose this and I don't know how many of you live in Creek View itself I know you're hesport residents but um it's a beautiful development and take a walk through it take a look at the area um and make make think about it even though you may not be living in that development how many people you are affecting and um that's all thank you ma'am thank you all right we'll go to um we'll go to the online people and if if there's anyone online if you would unmute your uh computer uh and we'll be able to recognize you that way and take your question and then we'll try to try to communicate that way I see no one unmuting their microphones all right again uh people online if you want to participate you have to unmute if you don't unmute we will move on nobody unmuted all right so I'm going to close the public session uh Mr Franks I'm going to give you a brief period of time to uh respond to any of the points made um no need to be repetitious we did hear your initial presentation right um thank you Mr chairman um I have one uh brief uh uh discussion for the board with regard to the outfall structure Jack Alpo structure seems to be on everybody's mind yeah so Jack can can you bring up I'm going I think what are we up to for applicants exhibits now uh uh you are uh you were just uh you were just a a that's all so we're we're at 8 I think is I marked the 3 4 yeah so yeah this is a84 Jack can you tell us what this drawing is yeah I prepare this plan it's a profile view of the pipe from from our storm water basin behind the backs of the houses and across the cter lands yeah why don't you move Mr Frank move that to the other easel just I know you that blocks the but just a little easier to see [Music] and this is an exaggerated scale it's 1 in = 50 ft horizontal 1 in equals 5T vertical as a result it is an exaggerated thing we do that because it's for our Clarity so help me understand the exhibit where's the creek the creep is here all right where's the pipe M this is the pipe in red and the D green line on top is the existing elevation of the lands of the dirt of the trees and it's uh what it indicates is we're coming down at a half a% slope on the pipe when we get near the creek we're we are installing a drop manhole so that the water comes in high drops down to the bottom and then it is near the level of the rain cus Creek and it goes out why we do that is to reduce the velocities when it exits the pipe and I G from this point right down into that stream the water would be roaring out that pipe which would lead to the Eros of uh possibilities so as a result of that drop band hole it reduces the velocity to considerably so that we are able to mitigate the area between the pipe and the creek reinforce it stabilize it and it won't erode out it will be inspected periodically as part of our maintenance schedule Jack so just to to summarize do using that vertical drop mean you can greatly reduce the area at the bottom of of the that's vulnerable to erosion well it it reduces the erosive possibility where I go directly down it would it would be wiped out in a matter of a day of a couple storm events it will be gone by doing this and this is very standard practice it reduces the velocity going out so let's talk a little bit about what what's flowing through that pipe you know I had a conversation afternoon about when we reach the 100 years St right is there going to be water flowing in this pipe and this is the this is not the 100e storm that is in the regulations today right this is the 100e storm climate adjusted climate adjusted which is 30 plus% approximately 30% larger than current okay so when we're getting that climate adjusted 100e storm how much water is going into that f I believe it was 1.8 CFS what CFS cubic feet per second okay versus just to give the board an idea the projected 100-year uh float into the Basin is roughly 45 CFS so it's one 1.8 out 45 in which is the reason we have to have a reservoir area so we could store it let the water out slowly that pipes 18 in in diameter it's an 18in pipe and if it were running chock full how how much water could it carry it could easily carry 12 CFS just by gravity okay so six times more so we're only filling the type 16 full in the 100e storm and when we have storms that are less than 100e storm you expect this plate to flow no because we are restricted from how much we can release based upon existing ground coverages that's a it's a it's a a classification soil which means it per it it has high permeability therefore little water runs off in the Natural State we have to calculate that uh that rate and then we are only permitted to to uh discharge a percentage of that so because it is so Sandy a 10year storm event we are basically not releasing anything because the existing ground is in releasing anything okay thank you um Mr Frank it's probably has been said multiple times before but uh if if approved um and if the m is also granted by the town um whose responsibility will it be to maintain the outall pipe and this um elbow Arrangement that it will be the responsibility of the homeowners association right and I think it's really important to understand what the flows will be and won't be and what the burdens on that pipe will be and won't be and that's why I brought Jack back up to explain that to the board this is and to miss Costco's point about the the pipe that was discussed by one of the one of the homeowners um you know this isn't that pipe this isn't a pipe that has a constant heavy flow that get gets put through it when there's a big storm event this is pipe that occasionally gets some flow and not much so I'll ask a question that may be on the minds of some people maybe not but uh uh Mr gra when the the uh what I'll call the elbow Arrangement but you know the it's essentially a it's essentially a manhole through which the water drops and then emerges out through a through another elbow correct that is correct and that is that 18 uh 18 in at the bottom no it'll be 4T in diameter at the bottom minimum we may go slightly larger depending upon the manufacturing requirement why is that if the pipe is 18 in uh why is the ultimate outfall 4T that is well that's the diameter diam I understand not the structure the pipe coming out will also be 18 in Okay the reason it is 4T is mainly for man access there'll be there'll be a ladder all the way down there rungs where you can get down there and actually maintain it if necessary it'll be easier to come in from the other way to maintain it all right and the ultimate outfall how high is that off the creek in a normal high tide event well it's about it'll be about 2ot higher than the mean high water line as dictated by mjd V they told me what they wanted so that's how I designed it will that title will that outflow will that outflow Poss possibly be submerged in extreme flood type or flood situations it could possibly uh I I did not review what the flood elevation is out there but it could potentially be other W during a 100e St that side and Mr melt maybe you can address that since it's more up your alley so to speak well yeah but I don't want to speculate Mr chairman um and I don't want you to you know I mean FEA FEA that's very likely FEA map Waterway you know the 100 flood probably in the realm of 7 ft above C Level somewh that but again that's that's a that's a ballpark can't okay thank you Mr Frank anything else yeah I I just want to remind the board what we're here for and what we what we're not here for um in closing um we're here because um we obtained from is forward uh preliminary and final uh major subdivision approval to build this development then there was litigation litigation from creekv homeowners association who objected to the use of uh an easement for storm water for the Overflow that we've been talking about today that would go onto the Creek View Property into the public right of way and then into the storm water conveyance system they objected to that and the result of that lawsuit was not a decision by the court but a settlement agreement that was reached between all the parties it included this board it included the township it included Creek viw homeowners association my client as well as the dius family children's trust which is the owner of the property um and and what we're here today to do is to implement that agreement Implement what got rid of that litigation and we're doing a very narrow thing we're asking the board to hear and determine that as testified by our experts that we comply with the storm Water Management ordinances of of the township and that we comply with the njd regulations for um uh uh Waterfront development pursuant to the permit that they have granted to us there are are really no other changes to this plan and so the the limited scope of an approval tonight would be to approve an amendment that would incorporate those storm water management measures ultimately the particularities of who will be responsible and how it will be paid for and how it will be secured and will be the subject of agreement between the municipality and my my client hopefully but that's not really what's before the board this evening this is a site plan application do we or don't we comply with your ordinance ordinances in that regard um and you we've we've agreed to comply with the plan detent and design comments of your professionals we've also made additional agreements on the record with regard to a native species for plant materials and the like were subject to other Outside Agency approvals like Soil Conservation so with that I'd ask that you approve this uh this request thank you I'm going to ask if if any members of the board have any questions to Mr Frank before we I'm going to get to professionals give me a chance did I hear correctly that you said the Creek View Homeowners Association agreed to your proposal yeah and the settlements yeah they did another question I'm sorry no no no no public comment is closed I'm sorry I have one public comment is closed I'm sorry uh but we have easy question you guys keep talking about this 30-year flood so I just want to under uh 100y year flood I just want to make sure that I understand this so on an day byday week by week monthly basis water will not be flowing through that pipe this that is correct this is in the event that we have this 100e flood then this is going to take care of the Overflow or bigger and you also heard testimony over right that that it has significant both the Basin and the pipe have very significant additional capacity in excess of the necessity for the 100 years I'd be sorry to see what's going to happen to Lakeside if we have 100 your flood I think there's going to be trouble there yeah I do okay um okay thank you I have I'm going to take you all way back to the beginning I I have to ask you again to [Music] summarize why what were the deciding factors in not having all of it be contained within that uh specific so so there are really two reasons the first reason and and this is something that both Engineers testified to is that it's just not good engineering practice to just do 100% infiltration and not have a place for bigger storms than we anticipated to go that's just not good practice not what civil engineers do is found how how these things are typically designed in addition to that the njd also has testified to by both Engineers the nadp regulations and their best management practices which is the design guide do not do not call for 100% on-site infiltration you know streams need water right um that's that's one of one of the recognitions that's come about over the years we used to have a higher infiltration standard than we have today and a and a lower flow requirement as the DP regulations have evolved they have actually um reduce the amount of infiltration that you're allowed to do under their standards so both from a practical safety and design perspective we need to have an outlet it's not appropriate to not have a physical Outlet um the natural flow of the water was historically down the hill into Creek View and we're not allowed to do that under the under the settlement agreement with Creek View so what's specifically contemplated there is this alternative and that's what we're doing any other board questions yeah that picture there will that all be underground so you won't see anything other than the pipe it's underwater if you have to go and and well cleaned the pipe I think Jack testified that it won't actually be out of underwater be just a little bit above the mean high water yeah but everything that's in red there and the vertical line so connect the edge of that would be ground versus concrete the vertical face yeah looking at it from the river side if you're on your stand on the other side of the river what would that look like um Let me let me ask Jack a minute so Jack this exhibit e here it was presented by one of the objectors and in it is a photograph of what appears to be let's like what appears to be an outfall structure is that something like what you're going to have there similar to that this is a much bigger pip okay so the concrete structure itself will be reduced course but it will be a concrete structure With the Wind walls it'll be smaller as I and there will be all the rip rat just like they're showing here the only thing I have they have a wall up on top of the concrete I'm showing a fence because I don't want someone walking off the edge of this thing unexpectedly you know I want them dead and and then the vertical face going up it's now The Cliff face that's going to be stabilized with soil and vegetation that'll be the same as it is once we restore it of course I mean certainly there's restoration efforts involved here but it's Our intention to bring it back to similar to how it is out there and to be quite honest from the other side of the Rancocas it's only going to be this F perhaps and once we get the vegetation growing it isn't going to stick out like a s th my point is that that is not going to be a concrete wall it's going to be that elbow is going to be 5 ft back down and then across more indication the manhole itself will be underground you won't be able to see that at all okay thank you Mr chairman if I may as a follow up to that my question I think the timing is appropriate your timing is usually appropriate for the head wall I think it may be appropriate and we've done this on other part Park projects there are um opaque penetrating stains and if that was not a white Portland cement but there was a topical stain applied that can make it sort of disappear into the landscape and into that Woodland so somebody kaying on the creek exactly would it would help that disappear super easy no problem we'll most certainly do it it could either be a condition of your site plan approval or a part of what we agree with the governing body I have no issue with that all right so the the issue is uh that um the applicant would comply with recommendations of the plan planner to to use a colored cement to to to disguise the head wall yeah uh with to use St to to deemphasize the presence to make it sort of an Earth Tone so it less visually in yeah right subject to planner's approval absolutely not an issue I have another question in terms of what it what gets Disturbed in digging for this pipe and what vegetation or trees get removed Etc um I mean we've heard stories of you know well they go ahead and do it and then they say oops sorry and then too late the trees have already been knocked down um how assured are we that there's going to be um close monitoring of of exactly what area and what needs to be replaced and what can be so so pre disturbance staking and marking and I believe that was a condition we can reiterate that in this that the clearing limits will be sted in the field and approved by our office and the engineers office that's fine and then secondarily the tree protection fencing will be installed and approved prior to any clear right because it's not it's not good enough just to avoid the the bases the the trunk of the tree right the tree has a root ball and it canopy you know so we need to stay out of that if we're going to preserve a tree if it's going to be a meaningful preservation so yeah so you're right and we'll certainly comply with all that and and you will have to comply with our tree ordinance that we received a lot of input from the environmental commission and residents that was amended accordingly but you're going to you're going to have to abide by 20249 correct yes which is our tree ordinance and you have a significant replacement obligation in that as well yep yeah and we're certainly aware of that so all if what if there's no agreement what if we think that it doesn't uh it's not adequate we don't want that tree down and the pipe can't go another way then what where do we go from there well then we're dead in the water right my point exactly right but that's you know that's the risk we're taking from my perspective who makes that final decision is is that leaving that up to Scott or okay so so here's the way I think that works um let's say that we go out in the field and we we Mark the trees that must stay we Mark the limits of disturbance where Machinery is allowed to go where it's not allowed to go not just what what's allowed to rip up but where it's allowed to go right we Mark that and we have a disagreement with Scott we reach impass with Scott we're going to have to come back either to the governing body if it's something that we're doing pursuant to our agreement with the governing body or here if it's a condition of your approval and say Mr is being unreasonable I'm I'm a board attorney in other places too right so I I get it right happens okay but that is that is our Outlet well what consequences are there if you and Mr Taylor don't agree and you say in the middle of the night let's get this tree down anyway and then it's don't ask for forgiveness just ask don't ask for permission just ask for forgiveness I mean I'm just Mr Frank's client would do that at his peril is that cor Mr Frank wouldn't wouldn't have a client you know I mean so um but um I I think that uh we can't assume that we're going to violate the law out of the box or violate the rules um hopefully uh as a part of the financial agreements that we reach with the municipality we can come to some sort of uh controlling theory that makes it uh economically uh unpalatable to engage in that sort of thing but it's not something that we can do here at the board yeah cuz I do want to go on record saying that that is a phenomenal area and if in fact we do approve it that I don't want it to be left up to she said like fols I'm sorry you know all of a sudden and everybody in here you know they're our responsibility is to them and all of a sudden now you know we failed that because somebody decided to pull fast one so to speak yep I I get and so we're going to need to incorporate that into our contractual agreements with the governing body um and and you know make sure that um whoever it is that's involved in implementing the approval understands that there's powerful reason not to do that so I also just from the municipality's perspective want to put out there that when we started making these improvements to the park there will be vegetation clearing as a result of our Park improvements and it could be significantly more than this it could be less but we too will have an obligation that we have to follow from 202 24-9 we're we're responsible for replacing any trees or vegetation that we remov just as you will be as well um so while the the can's somewhat being kicked down the road in terms of the actual easement agreement it is going to be very clear that we're going to talk about what's going to be in the HOA documents how it's going to mesh with and combine with our plan our conceptual plan and our what we're trying to do with the park improvements and I would think that the governing body and our professionals will work towards that in terms of incorporating this as part of the path system that uh we are going to be doing in our phase one and potentially phase two as well um but that is definitely going to be a priority and that is something that's going to have to be incorporated we've talked about it this is going to be part of the actual trail system um so that's all I have to say any other board member comments or questions so we get that wrapped up we're okay um just make make make sure that I haven't left anything that for the professionals have questions on none none Marty you're same you're okay i' just like to re reiterate to the board that it's unlikely that there's going to be much water in that pipe ever because of the infiltration in that Bas I've been in that situation where they have the uh you can't hold water in the botom they had a hard time doing evaluation of the percolation of the sand there because it just goes away because of the ferocity of the sand all right and then no other questions from the board and I'm going to ask um I'm going to ask Council uh we are um we are asked to approve an amendment to the storm water management uh component of this previously approved site plan and so can you state for this board the question that they must answer U well first St is what you're not voting on you're not deciding whether or not this F is allowed to go through the EAS because that is strictly a Township governing body issue they will be the ones who decide that and many of the comments you heard tonight should probably be addressed to the challeng of committee when they make that decision um the applicant has certain vested rights because they have already received subvision approval for the 31 wat I'm sorry 41 and what you're voting on is whether or not this proposal is an acceptable engineering solution to the storm water drainage where it goes is up to the okay so is the board clear on the question posed and if you were not please say so and we can talk about clarification so are we allowed to put conditioned upon um review of HOA documents and assurance that these Provisions are in the HOA documents and properly filed reviewed by not just the board members but also the township committee and professionals can that be a condition of the approval you know I'm not sure whether that's an appropriate condition of this appr approval it is it's already in our report France already agreed to provide the board professionals with that and as part of the eement agreement with the township I'm certain will do that so already agreed all right so say it again in a simple two sentence statement that the applicant agreed that the homeowner association documents which will include easement language and storm order management obligations will be provided to the board Professionals for review and approval and that's a condition of approval as as as might be proposed in the motion correct okay so if you make a motion you want you would want to incorporate that condition without re without necessarily restating it that Scott just outlined and of course we had other conditions that we discussed with Mr Franks such as just by way of example um uh compliance uh with the goal of complying with the um uh species the yes those pces yes so everything that we've agreed on the record should be incorporated into Mr Kingsbury's resolution as conditions of approval okay the color of the of the concrete all of those things that we agree [Music] exactly all right I think we're at the point where I'm going to call for a motion I have one more question I have one more question this might be no question is too late I disagree with that is this motion going to be conditioned upon the township committee's approval of the easement no okay yes that's true whether it's stated that way or not right so functional necessity right whe yeah whe you say it or not know okay the tach committee's decision on the easement is an independent decision based upon whatever evidence is presented before them and it is not necessarily pre-ordained by the vote here if it if it is a vote to approve alternative we could vote to approve and the township could find an issue with the EAS okay correct absolutely because you're here deciding under the site plan and subdivision ordinances of the Town you're not making a plenary policy decision about whether that easement should be granted or not you're making a decision about whether the engineering meets your site plan and subdivision standards that's that's the the complete scope of your decision that's right we presented evidence from our Engineers that it does your professionals are agree that it does and we've also agreed a lot of other conditions that help smooth out other issues around some of the concerns that are going to fully emerge at the township committee this is a question to approve or not approve the engineering and design of the storm water management system subject to the conditions that we have discussed at this hearing tonight yes so may I have a motion I make that motion may I have a second I'll second and your motion is to to approve subject to the conditions we talked about yes to approve the um Amendment to the storm water component of the site plan as presented by the professionals thank you thank you so we have a motion and do we have a second yes yes okay all right roll call Miss Costco yes Mr tooi yes Mrs C Tori yes uh Mr Bradley yes Mrs Celly no and I say no because I think that it well too much of the ground to be disturbed too much me for the native species and the native uh might the native um like the the birds and there those kind of creatures you have environmental concerns in other words yes I do thank you mayor Gilmore yes Mrs bgio can I say a reluctant yes I I mean I I have the same concerns that that um that Trish has you know um you know I'm just concerned about the disturbance not so much what you know it doesn't sound like we're going to have a lot of water going into the rank ccus but just the disturbance of the ground to put that pipe in uh concerns me but the vote was yes yes okay Mr Murphy yes and Mr mck no uh is it motion is it a appropriate to make comments as to why I made my vote now or no I really think V I think your vote speaks for itself okay um and but you know I I have different reasons that most people would have on the board yeah I first amendment always exists but right now your vote speaks for itself okay but then I would like everybody to hear my public comments at the end really all right so uh I think uh the uh motion passes yes okay no and seven yeses okay thank you very much for your many courtesies all right um going to continue with the uh agenda for tonight and we will have a comment at the end be Everybody by that well that's okay it's all right don't put me they get it on their record it'll still be on the record let VI I hate to see that prop I know all right um we have minutes of meetings to deal with um April 3rd uh 20 24 [Music] minutes April 3 224 minutes I don't think I don't think second anybody second thank you all in favor we have to run separately because everybody wasn't here for yes I'm going to do them separately but I'm going to do a voice voice rather than a roll call is that okay Paul well I believe you should be going it should be a roll call all right let's do a roll call on April 3 2024 uh Mrs Kelly yes Mr Bradley yes Mrs 4y yes Mrs B yes M pasow yes Mr noita yes and Mr mck yes all right May 1 2024 motion motion have we filed that minutes second roll call Mr Bradley yes m c yes M yes Mrs cly yes may Gilmore yes Mr jochi yes Mr Murphy yes Mr noita yes and Mr mck yes July 2nd 2024 so move second D Gilmore yes Mrs Tori yes Mrs Kelly yes Mr Chi yes Mr Murphy yes M cost yes Mr Bradley yes Mr Nita yes Mr M yes all right we have two um one more oh July 11 [Music] 2024 so move second M elore yes M Cary yes Mrs Tori yes Mr Bradley yes Mrs fago yes Mr Murphy yes m c guess you were here for July 11 I I wasn't I was sorry okay okay Mr noita and Mr yes uh resolution 2024 D20 that's a front yard setback variance for um pylon sign on the dental office on Route 38 second motion to approve is drafted there a second yes vote please Mrs Kell yes Gil yes Mrs Coury yes Mr Bradley yes Mrs fio yes Mr Murphy yes Mr noer yes Mr MCC yes uh resolution 20 24-21 [Music] um impervious cover for rear yard inground swimming pool a motion to approve a motion to approve second I'm sorry I'm sorry yes Mrs T Mr Bradley yes Mrs T yes Mrs Kelly yes Gilmore yes Mr Pao yes Mr Murphy yes Mr Nita yes Mr M yes yes um correspondence if no one has a particular interest in any I have a motion to receive and file second motion you can do it have motion all right all right I I any opposed no none sorry about that all right professional comments we've heard a lot today but anything else that we can talk about I'm all out of words that's amazing God I need to talk to you for 2 minutes afterwards on a totally different matter um all right uh Marty you have no nothing okay thank you for your help tonight by the way on answering dealing with these questions they're very helpful any board comments not now thanks it be on the record Karen yeah I didn't mean to shut your off Ken okay well I'm I'm new to the gang so I'm not quite sure how everything goes so but I just wanted people to know that I that for me this isn't done like this comes before the township committee and I wrote down every comment that everybody made and I appreciate the fact that they came to this meeting and I know it makes them very very nervous to come up and talk in front of everybody and I appreciate that so for me I'm leaving with a lot of questions that I know that I'm going to have a chance to ask at the township meeting and hear what you have to say ask you guys if I have any questions where a lot of the other board members here do not have that opportunity so for me it was very comfortable to say I respect everything that has been done in the last few years because I was not a part of that I I I respect all the work that all of you have done and your decisions that you make so um I'm going along with that and I think that it's very important that you guys made a settlement an agreement that this is what we were going to do and I respect that as well so going forward I just want to say I just wanted to tell the people that I was hearing everything they had to say and there are a lot of questions that I want to make sure are addressed for them in the future of well thank you all right um probably anyone left in the public but there are a few uh so any public comments online any public comments there are three people but they're not unmuting so okay hearing hearing no public comments okay I just want to thank the board again for allowing me as zoning officer to help these homeowners out due to the fact is that I'm starting to see a lot of our aging Community having to move in with their parents or vice versa and the fact that this homeowner took some of my guidance as to how to design this so that they had another a chance of getting it approved uh I just want to thank you all for again allowing me to help these regul well you do a public service I think personally by doing that so I as one member of the board I just I thank you for that so we're all be there one you I'm Already There H there all right um if there's anything else uh on the board's mind um I just want to that I I think what I hear from the residents um is a lot of concerns about the tree clearing and pres preserving a lot of the trees out there and I just I want to ensure everyone that we're going to work very diligently with them and Scott should this get approved to do what we can to preserve as many trees as possible because I do think that at this point at that is the overarching issue um we've established that there's not going to be a lot of storm water runoff with that um easement pipe um so it sounds to me like the clearing of the trees and and preserving some of the wildlife is a prior will will most likely be a priority and we you know I do want to commit to working towards doing what we can to preserve those trees and and really truly incorporating what is done here with the park plan and the concept plan so that because that Park is a benefit to the entire Community not just the 41 future citizens the county and the state we have people coming from all over the nation and I've seen the data on it um to our park so uh you know should it move forward that you know that commitment is absolutely on the table from Administration well said com to is obviously what Karen was saying that we're relying on them pipeline doesn't go to where it needs to go know is an okay answer you know that you know that we're giving you guys the ball so that you can make the right decision we and that's why I I put my truck leaving it up to the committee you know the balls in your court a lot of and that's a lot of reason why I voted yes because um I I love that area back there you know I'm the guy that the the weirdo that walks around in stuff areas like that oh true well not alone to be fair I ride my bike yeah to be fair you are one of 23,000 weirdos that have visited that Park in the past year and one of 46,000 visits to that Park this year and that is actual scientific data that is extrapolated by see nobody knows that the the the common homeowner doesn't know that yeah you know and it's good that that information gets to us because like I said I go back there I'm there there a lot you know constantly ride my bik back there and I I have friends that I work with in Mount Laurel the kill canoe and back there we see you on our trail cams we running in each other a lot sure is that how you do the camera camera yeah we have cameras out there yeah and I'm very happy any yeah the public should know that we have signs doesn't stop some people but then they find out right all right all right um motion to chair so move thank you all it was it was a stressful hearing but but a good one I know they all I'm happy like the 2 years ago but