[Music] joint meeting of the finance committee and the board of Selectmen uh to order uh we are in joint committee the white waging Personnel committee um I guess we should um open each one we can do it it's already done in the past yeah yeah all right so uh so I'll open the meeting for uh the uh board select them we have a quarum we'll ask the finance committee do the same thing we do have a quum all right good so we are both uh ready we're ready to go um so we already had the public hearing uh tonight we are uh trying to come up with a u recommendation for town meeting on uh the waging Personnel issues and articles um wait a start do you want to walk through the BW you want to do the that probably the longest thing yeah I think that's the best way to we we'll start with just working our way through the bylaw is anybody any questions about it comments suggestions changes anything like that sounds good all [Applause] right [Applause] yeah okay so uh I will walk through all the changes I will note that I did receive um individual feedback from several members and I Incorporated that into the the updates tonight and um if I missed any of your feedback please let me know but I think I cut back to everybody uh the first change here is this is Municipal and school building committee employees they really it's really a department so this is just cleaning that up to be Department instead of committee uh same change here um can you just IND uh which page you're on there yeah so I started at page one so I'm the only thing I'm going through is what's track changes so you'll see you'll see it's been crossed out and then there's a change and some of them have comments so page one nothing page two has that Chang from committee to Department page three is the [Applause] same page four has no proposed changes now I'm on page [Applause] five and so this was um excluded employees contracted employees aren't included in this it's just not specifically mentioned so we should specifically mention that um and then based on Jim brought had brought up a good point you know throughout this whole thing it it defines every time it uh mentions wage and Personnel it mentions the selectman and the finance committee individually it's I think it makes more sense to just Define the what the Personnel Board ultimately is and it's just comprised of both committees and then we can just call it that throughout the bylaw right than saying every single time Board of Select and finance committee now I'm on to uh so the bottom of that you'll see the public hearing aspect of it um The Proposal would be to eliminate that public hearing aspect so and the thought behind that is ultimately it's just you know it's an Antiquated process um and if if any employee right should sub could submit every single year for reclassification potentially get an increase so there needs to be more of a subjective objective process of you know a reclassification should really be if there's a change in job or change in um the responsibilities of the position and that's something we can take up on an as need basis rather than having this public hearing that requires Us in January which this year we technically violated the bylaw we were kind of busy with all the other things didn't have the public Hearing in January so um The Proposal would be to eliminate that aspect of it on the next page again this is just cleaning it up to say Personnel Board rather than selectman and finance committee um and they'll submit the you guys would submit a report with recommendations of amendments to the B to the bylaw to town meeting so similar to what you do now just cleans the language up a little bit in there I'm on the next page which is the uh grievance process so most grievance process will include the Town Administrator as a step right now the process is only two steps which is um unusual in what I've seen in other communities so we added basically just another step in here so step one would be to the department head step two would be to the Town Administrator and then step three would ultimately go to the the board of Selectmen this is where we def so I'm on the next this is where we Define Personnel Board so the Personnel Board shall be jointly comprised of the board of select one in the finance committee I'm on page let's see n nine now and again this is just the language here changing it from Board of Select and finance committee to the Personnel Board for a through e um see f is so right now now we start all employees at step one um if we were to start them above step one we need to come before you the thought is is there's you know it's rare but there are times we need to do that um and we just change the language in here and also if it's something below step four um I put in here that it could be authorized by the Town Administrator and the department head and then anything above that would have to go to the to the full [Music] committee uh on page 10 this is again cleaning up the language in there for Personnel Board uh and then also I had received a comment on uh subsection 15 regarding human resource leaon this was kind of a confusion confusing section as to what what it's actually meant by here so I tried to provide some language of just that the Town Administrator basically supports the way the the Personnel Board but if there's other suggestions in here we can certainly look at that uh under salary and wage Provisions uh a they're again this is just cleaning it up to be um that the the job postings are just submitted and reviewed by the Town Administrator this is basically what we do now we don't submit every job posting to this board for re for review um and then just we're updating the posting methods so you know we it doesn't necessarily makes sense for us to post every position um in what what's listed here you know things have changed we primarily post it on the website uh we'll post some of the positions in the local newspaper but I think it a lot of times we're we're posting it in the paper just to check the box to follow the bylaw and we're spending money to post it in the paper um just to check that box I'm on page 11 now um um let's see so under D um just for the uh for the EV for the newly appointed employees a six-month period just changes to department head and Town Administrator for the um evaluation period uh for increases we've talked about this and we I anticipate we'll have further discussion on this uh but based on the feedback received um what I've provided here is uh so we have a 12-step system now there was concern over the initial proposal of having um every step require and above satisfactory performance evaluation so the thought was is the first six would be subject to a satisfactory performance evaluation so as you make your way through the first part of the the scale and then as you move into the latter portion of the scale you would need to achieve an aov satisfactory performance valuation I just threw this out there for the discussion purposes I think we can that's what one of the sections we can dive back into um in there page 12 um under so I'm under promotions change of position subsection a instead of a um 2% increase I put 3% the reality is if you're getting a promotion or a change in position you probably I think a 3% % increase is warranted 2% isn't necessarily large enough to to Warrant you to want to take that promotion or increase so I think 3% is more in line with um with what we would what the employees would expect um and then this again this is for discussion purposes but uh removing the employee make an additional one-step increase if the department head recommends it um again it's just one of those things that's can be somewhat uh subjective in trying to make it you know more objective uh and then under subsection D the reason for my recommendation to remove this is you know my thought is if we're if you're having hiring somebody to do the position you should at least pay them the minimum for the position we shouldn't pay them less than the minimum for the position if they're doing the positions and as it says now they would get 10% less than the step one for the position um I think it makes sense if they're doing the job you've trusted them to do the job on an internal basis you should at least give them the minimum for what that position pays Cody can I just say clarification that's a um the same as the first step or the step of the person they're filling in for so that would be the first step so the minimum the minimum for that position got would be the first step for elected positions it would have to be whatever that whatever the elected salary at the time but for the non-elected positions it would just be step one step one okay thank you Cody can I ask a question on this one yeah um so makes sense right in status you bump up to whatever that salary is but does it need to be noted anywhere that in this that once that interim status gets removed you either go back to your original grade or something to that effect um we can certainly put something like that in here just so it's clear um is it is it possible uh under that temporary appointment that a uh employee appointed to uh fill a position temporarily even at going at the first step would uh perhaps take a pay cut uh thinking for example uh we appointed an interim fire chief in the past use C who may be to level and that may be would that be potentially a cut and pay for him because we wouldn't want to do that no so I think you know by removing this uh the the idea would be right you'd go to step one but you're not locked into having to do that less than 10% where now hypothetically they could take a pay cut cuz the BW requires that you pay them 10% less um for any of the contracted positions if you had an interm or acting you should you should actually um do a contract with them for the interm period and you would say this is a you know 90day contract or whatever it would be so the salary would be set for those positions that way and then for the other for the other positions it would be step one um and I think it's something if they were already making more than step one then we would evaluate and say okay well yeah they would need to get at least a you know 3% increase or it's probably would be a negotiation with the with the individual just occurred to me because I know we've done that with fire I could see the potentiality of the highway department for example definitely the highway surveyor decides who can't make it whatever we need to put an inent it might be somebody already on staff who already at the top of the scale yeah absolutely so on the next page under uh incentive increases the proposal would be to eliminate this provision in its entirety uh right now this calls for I mean you can see all the language here but basically if you take a course that was approved by the waging Personnel uh you can get a 1% additional increase in your compensation um and you can get two of them a year again I think you know the goal of the recent compensation classification study was to make sure that people are you know paid adequately within the range um and this again is one of those things that is somewhat um subjective and you know you have the committee reviewing and approving it and um I think it's just you know we pay employees a full salary and that is to do their position um and so it's just fair across the board that that is inclusive of all those things [Music] uh we have on under Article Five classification schedule this is a note um P page 15 just page 15 um removing this if you have a reclassification um on it would be on July 1st and then the step would be annually on July 1st I mean I think it just we recently did this it should just follow the anniversary date rather than revert back to July 1st the wage increases are based on a 2% Cola so we I took the wages from that were approved at the um special town meeting for fiscal 24 and the proposal would be a 2% cost of living for the ranges I am now on article six which is leave um so leaves of absence previous what this has that they are approved by the board of Selectmen we um we actually can't really do that because of HIPPA law because it would be a violation of HIPPA if it's a medical leave of absence so it's just updating this to curent practice um these go through our treasur collector's office and as long as they have the documentation we approve it if we have any questions we have Labor Council and we send it off for labor Council okay I'm now on page 20 thank you yeah page 20 under uh subsection C which is right below the chart of vacation time um we had it so in for former employees who return to service within 2 years um we just I think a year is more realistic and this is based on the feedback I received from some of the committee now on sick and personal leave um subsection d right now we cannot ask for a a Physicians note until they've been out consecutively for 5 days uh this is this was a suggestion by our labor Council to follow Mass General law which is three consecutive days that we we can ask for our positions don't under subsection e um we currently provide two personal days for our employees uh part of the compensation classification study was our um they looked at our leave to see make sure we're in line with other communities as well this is one of the areas where we lacked most towns were at least three and some were four so my recommendation to up this to to three personal days to be more in line with our comparable communities and then the next page um it is all regarding the sick leave bank so I had mentioned this previously you know the S leave Bank in theory is a a good thing as long as it's effectively managed so you'll see um it really just the change here the purpose Remains the Same to keep that sick leave bank but rather than this three member voluntary board which we don't have right now um it would just be you know a record of it would be kept in the treasur collector's office um and then you can see we get into we uh the Town Administrator would review the applicants submitted um and then we limit it to 30 days instead of 40 from the sick leave Bank in any 12- month period um and then just the definition of one day and then on subsection three it just defines that each case shall be reviewed on an individual basis establishment of the S leave bank that pretty much Remains the Same um just for the fact just remove that if it falls below 40 hours that it basically um stops that I think it just use it as it is as it's in there make it available I mean the employees are the on donating it so it should be available to use under section four um yeah this is just so employees aren't donating all their sick time and don't have anything left so previously you had to have at least 3 days my recommendation was to make it a minimum of 5 days and that way there if the employee themselves gets sick they're not they have their own time to cover it uh the next uh section is access to the non-union sick leave Bank uh at the top under one the I recommended here um make it a six-month uh period that they have to work for the town instead of 12 months if they are donating time um I thought is after 6 months it should be available to them again eight then changes it from the board to the Town Administrator um and then previously the the bank 90% of it could be allocated to a single employee at a time that just seemed pretty high to me so I reduce it to 50 just for discussion purposes I'm now on to bereavement which is 3530 um we did this in some of our Union contracts just updating this and increasing the umre ing the bement leave I mean the reality is if you lose a member of your immediate family 3 days is is not very much so um I mean not that 4 days is either but I think it's a little more in line with what we're seeing in other communities and also was in line with uh our Union contracts that we settled last year so we increase both of those for um immediate not immediate from 3 and one to 4 and two now under article 7 which is physical examination um yeah this just cleans it up so rather than going to the Personnel Board if the Town Administrator deems it necessary uh for the protection of the town that we can require it under training um this had been you know department heads were encouraged to have their uh staff to attend attend three hours of training each fiscal year 3 hours isn't very much so I think we should increase it you know a department should really encourage their employees to attend you know sufficient training but I think 8 hours is much more reasonable than three three really isn't much much training on an annual basis now I'm under the appendix a um the group b so removing the cheese clothing allowance this is some again that's a contract employee so it really shouldn't be defined in here anyways if that if they're going to get a clothing allowance that would be defined in their contract um special duty officer student officer and police matron so we didn't provide any sort of increase for fiscal 24 uh for these these wages so the thought was a 2% for 24 and then a 2% for 25 so basically take the fiscal 23 rate and then increase it by 4% uh so that's what these numbers are representative of I'm now on uh group what was formerly group e um the bottom paragraph water department employees are union so we don't need this in there if it's not applicable page 30 thank and the same with our Municipal School building uh Department staff their Union so this is defining their Union contract [Music] and then um under grades and steps this is just we already have the new rates in there so we're moving this uh and then we're moving we have the Town Administrator listed the deputy chief listed those should be removed because they're um contracted positions uh again water inspector veter I'm sorry water inspector and assistant building inspector we just put a a 4% because we didn't adjust those from fiscal 23 so a 2% for 24 2% for 25 uh veteran services so we did include that position in the reclassification study it's a stien position um and you know so that's a little bit more than 4% because what we did is we took you know he Steve who's our veterans agent really works a a varying schedule sometimes he puts in 5 hours a week and there sometimes he may put in you know 30 30 hours a week here so I tried to use an average of about 12 to 15 hours per week um and then looked at the range provided by the compensation schedule divided that out by the weekly and then the hourly um and multiplied it by the hours the average hours and came up with that 177,000 so that's that's where that methodology is for that one uh special Duty Officers and police matrons is the the two and two uh the assistant Outreach worker and the geriatric nurse are just a 2% because we did adjust those in fiscal 24 uh we left the interns at the same level we remov the fire chief and the fire clerical uh because again those are the fire chief's contract and the fire clal is already listed um under the wage scale as uh the executive system the all of the call fire department positions we did 4% because we didn't adjust those in 24 so a 2% for 24 and then a 2% for 25 uh the same for the Parks and Recreation positions uh the recycling uh labor and heavy equipment operator we actually can delete that I missed that one because that's included in the list of positions under the um the Gres and steps uh Cemetery superintendent so you may recall what we did with this one was uh when we had the reclass done we graded it as one position so the highway surveyor and the cemetery superintendent because it it's always been that one position um so in order to get this amount what we did was subtracted what we anticipate the elected salary being of the highway surveyor and then the difference is the stien for the cemetery superintendent inspector of animals and seal of weights and measures is again that 4% um the 2% for 24 and 2% for 25 okay thank you uh anybody on the committee have any comments thoughts questions uh suggestions yeah I think we have probably a few that definitely want to uh talk about the um the the increases there I guess but just a quick question before we dive into that on um page 3510 article uh four I guess so the item b as far as the advertisement of the open positions I guess we're taking away the the newspaper um which I totally agree with but we did specify a um a date of a posting range of 10 days I guess there is no other um indication of the length of time the posting will be made available should we consider adding something there to cover that I guess or I think typically we use what 30-day a 30-day post thing right but maybe we should specify that in the in the section there mhm I don't know do you guys agree with that I guess what are your thoughts I I think there should be something something definitely something do 30 days is that what I think at least 30 days would be appropriate you have to give time for you know folks to you know see the post thing and and apply if they're interested is that just car I like the idea Todd is that for for paid L thingss too but I'm just wondering like let's say you know we're going to if it's I don't know if we use paid sites or you know recruiting sites or we going to have to pay for 30 days when maybe we can get it done in 21 days or no are we committing ourselves to funds that we might not need for an extra you know 30 I don't know if we need to post it for literally 30 days I think you and correct me if I'm wrong Todd but I think you mean more like you post the position on April 1st we should allow it to remain open until 1st so not post it for what should be advertised I guess with that yeah advertising it through keep it on our website open we usually post through the MMA those are usually 30 days we pay one fee and it remains on there for 30 days um and then you know if we were to post it in the newspaper right now we do it for 2 weeks we certainly we're not going to do it for four but I think as long as it's posted initially and says the position will remain open until that 30-day Mark got yeah accepting resumes or applications through 30 I'm with the window being open I just didn't want to have a have us to have to commit to Sure extending a payment you know corre if it's time based okay anyone else well me get the committee first and then we'll come so anybody else on the committee have any other comments suggestions so I have I have one on bin um it's uh 3525 25 so um I think it's great moving it up to from 3 to four my opinion that's fantastic um I I questioned the two days for the inlaw side of thing that it's it's important to note that everyone's family situations are different um you know an in-law to me may not be the same as an in-law to you so I just I just think that we should maybe give that some consideration before finalizing this more than two days so it's four for an immediate family and it's 2 days for in-law the in-law side no I'm I'm talking so like brother-in-law sister-in-law um you know my wife spouse grandparent would have pass away like all of those things I think that because everyone's situations are different um I think we should be sensitive to that when we're putting that on paper so you say in 4 days I I my recommendation would be at least three if we want to move to four that's great but I I just don't think that two days is enough to attend a wake and a funeral it's not enough to assist with the planning of of those two items we St two days is fine these days two days were what's it now currently for In-laws is it it's one right now one one yeah I mean I see your point you know maybe we look to to go I'm sorry it's I'm sorry it is two days right now it's one for Aunt uncle niece nephew uh or employees spouses Aunt uncle or grandparent two days for yes 2 days for brother-in-law or sister-in yeah you make it out at least three for that second category I would recommend just moving that two to at least three that's my that's my personal opinion I just I just think that between if there's travel time involved if there if there's you know closer relativist that on the in-law side I just in my opinion that's something we have to be sensitive towards what the rest of the committee think yes no any other thoughts I don't know it it's it always seemed like every job I had that that was a typical division of four days for you know media family four days for so it just seemed like there's an appropriate amount to me nowaday because everything is done quicker yeah anybody well I'm just I'm still a fan of just providing an allotment of hours to every employee to use however they want throughout course of a year then you don't have to get into these types of decisions and you know adjudicate what is you know an in-law versus you know well they lived in my house right in-law apartments that kind of stuff I'm fine with leaving it for two days so what the consensus is 3 days no yes that's my thought what's that is it line contracts Cody you remember on un contracts is that kind of did uh tring to remember we didn't do three for for In-laws uh we increased it to four for immediate and then it two for everybody else right is what we do yeah that's I'm with two two okay we have a consensus on I think so good yeah I don't know to EJ's point you know if I lost an in-law close with my in-laws you know I some here here's the the reality today versus the reality 20 years ago is that you have situations where a lot of these people who F who fit that category in some cases live with that family right and if you're living with someone and they pass away 2 days is not enough to put all that in order and geve that properly that's just my opinion I understand that but there's also a lot of vacation time in this in these here and there's a lot of personal time but it says right it's it says in here too where for even been shall not be charged back to the si le in vacation time it's right in the bylaw right but if they need more in two days if they given then they have that I will know you know in recent history um if if we've had something like this we're always very flexible with people you know try to make it work with people schedules and we understand that four personal days in addition to so but right now you get two personal dates we're increasing that to three could you put additional to be requested by the town Adat you you could yeah definitely could no he saying for like a provision that you could request additional another additional yeah maybe a day not four um well okay so what is our consensus now yeah I think that would open up a lot of four we can take a so start four I guess so vot all right well why don't we take why we take a vote see so uh I'll propose that keep it before you take a vote or no can we speak on it before you vote or no well what we're trying to do is come to a conclusion what this committee's talk about we can come back and change it so I want to get us done and then we'll take on whatever more comments you might have I okay all right so um all those in favor of two ra one two three four five six seven all right and uh two three that's four so we'll leave it at two for right now and then we'll make comments and see how it goes I just try to keep the process sure okay any other comments from the committee on any sections on this what we want to talk about the second pie right that was I know uh EJ and Jim you had some thoughts on that right if you want to in regards to so potentially adding bonus and things of that nature yeah probably start I think that oh sry so this is just specifically for the um for the payale right so I think the last time we met there was discussion around using the P SC to excuse me uh as like a bonus for people to do well to get them a second step is that [Applause] correct so right now the process is um you on your anniversary date subject to a satisfactory performance evaluation you move up to the next step U within the right now we have a 12-step system initially in my proposal it was to make the steps um you'd have to achieve a rating up above satisfactory and that's what started the conversation I just got to find while while he's ping that up that's yeah but I guess given the change I guess you know does that change your opinion I guess or any other thoughts that you want to share give me the opportunity my opinion Remains the Same it's not it's not a p system it's it's that it was created first first of all we spent a good amount of money on the study to have that done so I certainly didn't want to just start changing the study that we all agreed was the right way to go and start adding to it and making exceptions to the rul just this is exactly what the study recommended that the step increases based on a a merit system so your Cola you get that doesn't mean you get two what's that doesn't mean you get two steps no I didn't propos two steps no that's a separate topic separate issue yeah yeah we'll take that on next but yeah so I think you're so I think it's a fair and Equitable system so I'm in complete support of what we came back with with the uh with the finance with the report perfect and then EJ was there anything else you wanted to add okay and we're talking about the last year fiscal 23 24 is um wage step that we all agreed upon and voted on correct correct yeah to stay with that right yes so just to clarify to move up from steps 1 to six you need a satisfactory and from 7 to 12 you need an above expectation however the wordage is so that's that's what we're looking at for that part the increase so I think everybody's in agreement with that that's that's that's a separate that's a separate distinction that's a separate distinction I think so in my opinion I think that should be you get you get an satisfactory or above the entire time you're in that grade you you get the next step uh the only time you shouldn't get a step is if it's if you're not doing a good job so below satisfactory rate you don't get a step right again to my point if we want to bonus people doing outstanding work we need to as a town commit to that create a pull of money to pull from as a reserve fund and say your department head and it goes to Cody and he said he did a great job he did XYZ above and beyond I want to give him a stock bonus of $500 to recogn the effort right I think that's fair because then it's better for the employee uh to see that their effort is being rewarded it's also from a pay scale perspective no employee can say that we're using the pay scale in an in inequitable manner of saying we're giving people extra money or extra steps right because that's how it would be viewed that's how you would change it to uh just have to meet expectations from step one through step satisfactory or above in that role you get the next step because you're doing the job you're solid what's the rest of the committee think about that be a change from what what's been proposed so just to just to clarify Jim so the step increase rains throughout the bonus kicks in at step seven no no no no the bonus is a whole separate there is no bonus it's not not part of the pce right it's not part of the pay so could you could you describe how that bonus structure would be laid out a little bit more well that's something that we would have to discuss we don't have bonus structure right now but what would we envision that I know we don't have it in place now but if we're talking about making a decision in front of us based on an assumption that there could be a bonus pool put together how could we I'm not I'm not so hang on for a second I'm saying that I'm the bonus pool is something that I would say is something we should consider right what we have in writing and what I'm what I'm saying is that the scale is uh grades 1 through 12 12 steps all the way out it guarantees you if you stay in in that grade for the next 12 years you're going to get a 35% increase from where you start to where you finish right you get satisfactory above every time your yearly review comes up you get the next step that's the reward for doing a good job through the course of the year now you know if we want to discuss um exceptional work at different points in time that I think is a different subject matter but that's not part of the pay scale there should be no bonuses built into a pay scale the pay scale is meant to be Equitable and just to everyone who works here so they see it as that they come to work and say I to do a good job I'm going to get x amount of money next year as long as I do a good job I do a bad job I don't get the St so so go ahead no I was just going to add so I mean I think we made the decision to increase the uh the pace the knowing that there's going to be some long-term challenges to to fund those positions long term right so uh however knowing that we made a decision to move forward with the pay increases because it was the right thing to do right we were losing employees and there was a huge divide um from neighboring communities I guess but Cody I just wanted to on the heels of that I guess was that part of the uh the recommendation I guess them uh from the study to make those um you know was it seven and Beyond Merit based I guess or what was they uh in the study they present that as an option not for the 7 to 12 for actually every year from 1 to 12 they present that as an option me theyed they presented several options that was just one of them but did they provide color what what was the rationale behind that I guess to make that solely mer based to to get the stuff just motivation and the idea that col the cost Ling adjustment is the kind of the guarantee increase and then the step increase can can be used as more of a merit basis got okay all right yeah thanks for that um what what's the um what's the approach when they're maxed out they would just get a cost Ling adjustment just just the call so uh consensus here leave it as proposed or go with what Jim suggests uh I think we should take a vote Maybe I don't does anybody else have any comments though before we do that I guess or I I just think on the on the bonus side of things I I worry about creating um understanding it's not tied into what we're talking about here from we don't have a bonus provision I understand that but but the proposal to add something to that effect I just think I just think that that's I don't think anybody's in favor of that point correct yeah let's do this let's let's just let's just get a consensus here on whether to leave it as proposed or to go with what Jim suggests the difference being that uh if above step six you have to have above expectations to get to the next step what Jim proposing is it should be meets expectations for every step so let's let's go with a show hands just on keeping it as is all right not not Jim's suggestion but keeping it as this can we do that so we have a show hands of that okay sure I'm going I going go that can I keep it as written keep above step six you have to be above meet above expectations just keeping it as proposed as as proposed that I sent out or keeping it as current practice which current practice is you get a step every year as long as you get a satisfactory performance evaluation well let's can I just ask make it clear let's do it this way so let's let's take Jim's suggestion do we we uh I'll get a show of hands to we change it to uh change what's proposed here to uh every step you get a uh you get a you move to the next step with a satisfactory uh approv can I just ask a clarifying com uh question first cuz we haven't got into the performance review uh template as well yet so what's going to be the determining factor between satisfactory and above and beyond to cuz what's going to prevent I guess the department from just rating everyone above and beyond to therefore give them that that becomes a satisfactory it's a good point it's an issue we have now and a lot of it is you know performance evaluations stop getting done when people maxed out at step six and say okay where's the performance evaluation for this person well we never did one because you only needed it to get that step so it was checking a box so part of the adoption of the updated uh evaluations which were recommended by our labor council is he's going to he would come in and provide training to all of our department heads and then beyond that um my initial plan was to sporadically sit in and be involved with performance valuations um with various departments to make sure that they're in reviewing them all to make sure that they're actually being done to a satisfactory level and there's attention detail going into them because so I think somebody had mentioned last week performance valuations are great if they're done adequately and correctly if not they're they're really pointless you're just checking a box so we want to make sure that we're using them as a as a tool rather than just checking that box so just training and then just you me being more aware and involved yeah I think that would be critical if we are going to make that you know determination between the two that that's critical that we have that in place yeah the plan is to do that whatever whatever the choice is here we performance valuations can be a powerful tool we want to make sure that we're using them correctly sure okay what what the most um Municipal entities do in this regard um well believe it or not we're actually Progressive in this uh for this one it's probably 50% of municipalities that you just get that step increase you don't even need a performance valuation in recent years uh towns have looked to to add that in that you at least have to have one for a satisfactory and then maybe 10 or 20% of towns have done you need to go above to to get um above satisfactory yeah cuz I I in my opinion I don't think increases should be tied to an evaluation I think that managers should have the expression to approach you know Town administrative board selectman finance committee to request an increase for a specific employee based on length of service um job performance and things like that Todd's Point is is spot on these things are great but they're a lot of work for for the managers to complete and in a lot of cases the employees should also be doing self evaluations to help the manager with that process and it's it's such a this regardless of how structured this is and whatever training that goes into it that doesn't prevent people from just doing what's right by their employ and I think that's that's the risk with tying an increase to a performance of I think in one hand in a broad sense some uh positions don't have a whole lot of opportunity for exceeds expectations right I mean if your job is to um I don't know drive a truck you know you show up on time you drive your truck you do what you're supposed to do and you get it back and don't get in an accidents I mean how do you exceed expectation to drive two trucks be very figure out could could be very subjective my experience as a manager outside of this uh usually you can't Mark everybody as um high performance you know usually it's supposed to be a very small group so then you have to pick and choose between okay well the both of these guys did a great job for me this year but I can only pick one and so he doesn't get to move another stuff up I mean I think Jim's point on bonus is a good idea although that's really not what we have to deal with it's just just the step yourself I think one of the one of the cruxes of this study everybody's worked in or most of us have worked in different work environments and you have those employees that are shining stars that really take pride in what they do and you have employees that I don't want to say mail it in but uh just their to get their paycheck and get out of there so I think I think we need to address that at some point because if we always look back to the business world and we try to say hey let's run Halifax like a business well that that exists in the business world you know identifying good talent in trying to entice them to stay trying to entice them to go above and beyond um so that's why I'm a fan of keeping it as is um because I feel like your first six steps you're getting your feet under you you're kind of feeling what the job is all about but then once you've been there 6 years or more at that point you know what you're doing I would hope you know what you're doing and at that point I would feel like it's up to you that if you want to achieve more you got to do a little bit more right and whether we want to do that as Jim says as a bonus or as the step I mean that's you know that's a separate issue but I know at the heart of this we have we have people that go above and beyond and that's kind of what in my opinion what the driving force of this step plan was right right it's all well good if you're the private sector that has money yeah sector is an issue money is a problem here oh sure sure and I think need to think of that I think we're reasonable in the steps we've created I mean we're not we're not yeah so so to your point I don't think we're setting steps that are you know Wall Street kind of steps here but but we that to six you're going to raise it two steps for each somebody who does one no I'm not talking for two steps I'm talking to one step just to get to One Step this is just to get a one step they above average and they come in every day then there's no problem for them getting a step right that's what he's saying yeah so so say one step at a time it's like here driving to public okay if you're an Public Employee you're not going to make tons of money you work in the private sector sure they can afford to do voes if you strive to do better that's wonderful and we all strive to do better but unfortunately this is a town whose residents are paying everybody's salary here we have don't have a lot of business to rake in any money so we have to think about that before we and I think we've set I think we've set reasonable limits on what our steps are but I just feel like we should we should borrow from the private sect as to how those are achieved to ensure that we're providing good service to our people right as long as that doesn't include after step six they St getting bonuses nope no no no no that's not no I think we're talking up so so the proposed plan Cheryl is from 1 to 6 they would just need to be satisfactory to get a step and that should be from 1 to 12 just satisfaction or propos that's okay I mean I I I disagree for the for the simple fact that you've done your six years you've got your feet onto you and and I think in order to to Really hold I don't want to say hold them but to make sure that they're doing the best job they can do why we doing that at the beginning so you're saying that I I can just show up for 6 years and then 7 to 12 I can work harder well that's I guess that goes back to our valuation gym is showing up satisfactory well that's you that's that's that's the Crux I guess that's the Crux of my argument if you show up punch your clock and do the bare minimum are you guaranteed to step but then you're saying that I just have to try a little harder Year s right so I could be I can mail it for the first 6 years you can be satisfactory you know get something after yourself cuz I'm going to do something why you doing that from the start that's that's to me that's just too subjective because you're asking someone or their manager or department head to assess in their mind what is good and what is bad but that goes back to Todd's question the documentation in and of itself so if we're going to do training on that smart thing to do absolutely uh but it needs to be objective again the grades and steps should be Equitable to all parties who enter into a contract in theory employment with the town I should be able to say I'm going to go to work this is what my pay will be from at year one this is what my pay will be at year 12 and if I'm at year 12 then and I haven't decided and I decided just stay and do whatever that is then I get a 2% increase unless I do something different and move to a different grade but I guess go ahead no sorry I'm just going to say I don't see much difference between if your point of trying to do a a individual bonus system as as compared to the the plan on the table here it's essentially the subjectivity is the same whether you're doing it through this plan we're talking about a grade we're talking a grade but it but it is it is similar in subjectivity when you start to factor in so you just mentioned a Jim where um if you were to give someone an above average that's too subjective how is that more subjective than giving them a meets expectations it's just it's it's someone's opinion you're have no matter how you do that's why that's why should be satisfactory above it's just it should be a standard start year 1 through year 12 you shouldn't make a change Midstream because then you are changing the rules of the game yeah and if you are going to change it I guess cuz wasn't there was a recommendation too uh from a public comment on maybe moving um the first six to two steps if it was above average but that didn't make it into the this right we didn't that I didn't hear any feedback from the committee I mean I would just advise the financial impact of that you know if we're going to hand out two steps plus the cost living adjustment a step is 2.8% now you're at 5.6% and then let's say 2% Cola now you're at 7.6% and if that's across x amount of employees across multiple years it it becomes you know not not financially feasible for the town like just uh really hard you have a lot of different departments making these evaluations so some might be more willing to push their people up some might not yeah it's just that we're draw here we're drawing a Line in the Sand right that says satisfactory and above and beyond to the to the point made right like you're not giving those folks the opportunity to to be rewarded for going above and beyond so it's almost you know yeah I mean I think one of the things that at least I've really strive to do um and will continue to strive to do is you know the employees that consistently prove thems to go above and beyond those are the people that we look to reward and so may not be through a process like this but we may look to create a new position that maybe they take on more responsibility um because they've proven themselves that they can take on more responsibility and with that instead of a grade five their position is now a grade six because they've taken on that responsibility in previously grou yeah and I think that's where some of the the comments on the bonus structure kind of come in because it's like if they can only get satisfactory so you can only get that One Step so if you go way above and beyond it's like nothing right until you get if you get if you're going above and beyond put in better position for promotion you need know if we go from a worker to a foring or whatever whatever it is right I mean that that's that's something I mean assum assuming a position opens up I guess right that they could apply to I don't but that's is where I think it does complicate the you know when you do split it like that versus just a straight Factory across the board obviously is a lot more simplistic in that regard more I listen to more I think that you know the uh the idea here is to be consistent and it's going to be very hard to be consistent when you don't have the same manager making all these evaluations so it's going to be you know absolutely I might think my people are all excellent you might think your people are all excellent so and everybody's excellent so we're going to just keep on moving up so it makes sense that if they're doing the job they're asked to do at a satisfactory level uh and if we're going to have a step system then that that seems to me that's what I the more leg but anyway that's one man been so are you guys ready to I think we're ready any other comments before we vote good okay yeah I think we're good okay so what do you want to do do we have a consensus you want to take a show of hands take a show of hands all right so um let's say the uh to make the change that Jim suggested which is that you have to meet expectations for um for increas of every step from okay so everybody 1 through 12 1 through 12 yes no differentiation once you get as agreed upon in the um W's Personnel that we approved last year uh P it'll follow the pce all those in favor of that raise your hand so got one two three four five 6 78 all right and oppos we got one two okay so our consensus is we want change it yep so I just changed it back to um you shall move uh steps are provided after an annual annual increase in compensation to a higher rate for that position after completion of the report period of continuous service an annual performance evaluation where the employee receives a rating of satisfactory over okay all right so Cody before before we move on I just want to clear for the record as to why I voted the way that I did um Cheryl's point with um regards to us being a a public entity um I I think we have some um fiscal responsibilities that public sector does not have and I think that um by using an appraisal process to tie into our budgeting process every year um I think that's putting us at an elevated risk in terms of our ability to fund other areas for the town uh so I just we'll talk more about that for the appraisal process but I just wanted it to be clear that I think that connection between this and how we're budgeting ourselves fiscally every year is is a risk for us okay well we we do have to keep the process moving so we're going to make that recommendation for now I know the public wants to talk about it we'll get to that as soon as we get through this then we'll take the rest of the conf so anything else in Theos bylaw that anyone wants yeah I just Cody if you explain why we're looking to go from 90 to 50 on the 6 Bank um it just seems U one employee could deplete the sick Bank 90% it just seems how can you only leave 10% for other employees yeah I I guess just my thought was let's say an employee gets very sick um and they need that time and I think as if you're part of the sick Bank you you kind of understand that you're you're giving to the bank and that there's a good chance you don't get any of that and there's a good chance is that you know if somebody gets really sick that they might need that time so I would just hate to cap it at 50% um if there's somebody that could really use it and we don't use it the rest of that year that's just my takee now what's the group think well agree with Jonathan change back to 90 or leave it at can I ask how often does it get used well nothing right now because it doesn't really exist there's no board there's no um it hasn't no requests there's been a request but we don't have any way of administering it because it hasn't really been follow through okay what's the consensus I I agree with um with how it is right now at 50 but also to Jonathan's point maybe we can add some language in there that says um you know exceptions can be approved by whatever process we we being necessary um but I think the expectation that you can burn it down to 90% is is well noted Jonathan but um situations do arise where we might want to extend that that ability to people any shouldn't be out free anyone else with comments one way or the other yeah I would agree with that I think we should allow for exceptions um based on the discretion of the Town Administrator I would recommend it's fine whatever whatever the board would like okay how about the that agreeable with the consensus here that we would uh add a little sentence in there that says that uh exceptions can be made uh on petition to to administrator that work for everybody okay that um okay any anybody else anything else on the the uh proposed by no don't think so all right all right so pass as far as we're concerned we are at this point on a consensus on this now we have comments from the audience if you folks would just come on up to the microphone andies they give us over here we go on the job posting you said um it has to be posted for 30 days okay so my assistant resigns she might give me two weeks she might not they sometimes they just walk out um I have to get a job description and a posting together this is not always done within a week now it goes into the paper and it's posted and now you're asking me to keep it on there for a full month before I can interview and then the interview process will take a couple of weeks I'm up to like 2 months without an assistant because it has to be posted for 30 days if we say it has to be posted I mean right now 30 days is to our advantage cuz we can't get people to apply but back in the day it used to be a twoe posting would get to 30 applications so I think putting a limit on it in the bylaw is a mistake um what would recommend I think putting a limit saying you have to post it for 30 days is a mistake okay have to post it for 2 weeks can post it for more something on that idea but saying you have to post it for 30 days and that you can't hire anyone until that posting is done it it just prolongs the amount of time that you don't have an employee so and hopefully the pool is going to get better can I ask you a question on that so what's the purpose of uh requiring it to be open for a certain period of time guess just to make sure that you're you know reaching cast wi we we can keep it open as long as we want right just a matter of uh if we had I guess a good applicant right off the bat and want to move ahead with it why couldn't you do that this what point yeah I mean I mean my my comment was based on the fact of just being uh you know fair to folks right like you know if you have somebody that in mind right like you should still should be opened up to others to be able to apply and and compete for their role essentially uh it is a fair point maybe 30 days is is too long 14 days maybe maybe more appropriate isn't practice in the public sector isn't that 5 days minimum five business days minimum 5 days it depends um I've seen a lot of times that we have like an internal posting period requirement of 5 days and then and then it gets to post it externally so it really it VAR I don't think you really need internal posting because Word of Mouth usually oh yeah I'm talking about external yeah but um we did try at one point to say that um a job would be posted internally first for 2 weeks and if you could fill it internally then whatever position was being emptied would be the one that would be posted um for the public but that did not fly at town meeting so it was felt that it was better to just post it publicly but I still think a two week amount of time is enough um leave it open more if you need it but just where where is it where is the bylaw written it says you can't interview until day 31 oh just well it's not that you can't interview but that you don't you don't want to like take someone make your decision up before you give I understand that I mean if you the ideal candidate by the end of you know the 14th day you hire the the ideal candidate and take the posting down but we're going to say it's going to be open for 30 days so if we're saying s days and then someone comes in the 25th day we already interviewed and everything for that person that came we could just say open until position filled I think what I what I had proposed was just eliminating the 10-day provision and it would essentially be that and then the conver I don't know who who brought it up but the conversation today resulted in the 30-day that's not there now that was added in just now as a result the feedback from the committee the 10 day was was should be strip from the language because it was specific to the newspaper so I think we need we should have a date in there just but whether it's you know days it's got it's got to be posted to some degree so put it in minimum of two weeks like 14 days 10 10 business 10 days yeah 10 business days that's you can't have a bu lined up and I'll slide you tomorrow so uh's consensus here two weeks that two weeks well we had 10 days there that's fine yeah weeks is agreeable I think everybody the newspaper business day bu yeah but and again just to be to Jim's point it doesn't state that you know you can't begin the interviews oh sure you know on day one you just don't want to be sitting around if you have a candidate you got watch you get someone on you candidate all right okay1 all right point two incentives now I'm the one who put forward that if you you had a really exceptional employee who did an outstanding job one year that you could maybe raise them to steps obviously this is not a popular um decision but what you've also done is you've taken away the incentive the educational incentive if someone takes a course that helps out in their position that if it's approved by this board they could get a 1% increase on their pet I think that if you if you look at a lot of the um Union contracts that the town has right now there are educational incentives if the firefighters get certain certificates they get a sement um police offices even the uh mixed unit has stiens so whether you do a percentage if you do a stien I think for some of the positions that you should be able to get some kind of an incentive if you're willing to go out there and put yourself out and do the extra work I think that you should get some kind of an incentive for it I think that it should be considered for wage of personnel just like it's considered for the unions so you're and adding on to the step system what you're trying to talk about yeah if it can't be in the step system I mean right now in my position I had I well know once the new system went in I lost my education incentive but I took a um five course master's degree level program got a 1% incentive education incentive on my salary I put a lot of work into that and I did it to help me better do my position um in town was not a requirement I was certified I get nothing extra for being a certified Town accountant but I did it and I really didn't do it for the money I did it more because I wanted to better understand the way the government was working and everything but if you want people to better themselves in their positions I think a stien or some type of incentive is appropriate you got the 1% increase for essentially an educational yep it was an educational in an educational incentive and that's one of the things that Cody talked about taking out of the bylaw toward that point um you know I one of the things at least I've encouraged since being here is we want to we want our employees to go to these trainings we want them to become more educated more trained so we've covered we've been covering I've really pushed I don't think I've denied anyone's request to attend a training as long as it's applicable so we're paying for that and I think you know they they're now gaining that knowledge and it's certainly beneficial to us right but it's also beneficial to them that we're paying for that that training that's something that can go on their resume um and that didn't happen in the past I don't think I think Sandy paid for that class out of her pocket so I think the us paying for the courses is a good you know motivator in itself I at least personally I'd rather see us dedicate the resources to that to provide the training to pay for the training than to provide an incentive to you know an additional compensation and then you run into just logistically I'm trying to keep everybody on the steps the same steps so if we start giving out you know incentives 1% incentives well now they're not going to be on the same steps it's not going to be the same set of steps and scale that everyone has so just logistically changes things a little bit but logistically we make it work for our unions why how does it take them off of the step rotation because let's say uh they would be a step so uh you know grade two step one right now is let's say $20 an hour they get a 1% increase that's just for them I get that but then but then the when the next cycle comes round they get the remainder from that one no no this is the way it's written it's a permanent 1% addition I feel that if the town is paying for the educational benefit of the employee at the town's expense and the town is also paying the employee to take that training to better themselves and better for the town I feel is an even thing I don't feel we should be giving extra money just because you took a uh 8 Hour educational class well to me it comes back to our evaluation process right so like to sy's point you're you're going to go and take all this extra class work and it's great and you're going to be a better employee for the town of Halifax you can make that case to your to your supervisor and you can say look I'm doing the extra work right so to me you you're going to become a better employee by taking these and you should be rewarded for going that ex ra mile so that to me that should be you have a better chance of getting a higher incentive by taking that class you're a more effective and better educated employee so that is I think you increase your chances of of getting some sort of incentive by taking that I don't know if we necessarily have to tie it strictly to education but to Cody's point if they're educated in what they're doing then they will be better for our town so to my point it's just you need to I don't think need to tie it to education but you can use those education classes to make a case for Rising the ladder so what would you do would I think we need to look at I think we need to look at our review system and doing your review and and in your review that's why I was in favor of making it for exceeds expectation you know you're you're going above and beyond because you are taking these classes you are working on better in yourself in in being a better more effective employee in Halifax so if somebody wanted to get exceeds expectation maybe they would take that class you know and that that would show in their review that would show with their supervisor and that would help make their case to rise up the ladder that's that's at the heart of what I thought we were going to do yeah my my idea is basically trying to make it more Equitable for the wage and Personnel employees in line with Union employees all right so right now we offer this to our Union employees not this and not all of them I know and our Union employees have specified certifications that are applicable specifically to their jobs that are laid out in their contract and that could be the same for yeah the town employees well some I some yes lay out every single applicable course for every position nonunion position well if it so this is this is why I I feel strongly that if you can't tell that um increases should be tied at the manager's discretion because there I I do my my personal opinion of the review process is it's more of like a development plan you're laying out foundation for your employee over what you would like to see them achieve over the course of the next year in addition to reflecting back on how they performed the previous year so in that review process you should include some type of discussion that talks to them about the development opportunity that they have so Cody you mentioned like we how are we going to identify that's up to the manager to do as the person who's completing the reviews right but you you have to have some substance in the review process that you can clearly measure and if it's if it's too subjective again this is why it it should be manager's discretion one of the weak points to that is that we have no human resource um person so the manager it depends on the strength of the manager and the willingness of that manager to go forward for their employee and sometimes you have really strong managers who will do that and then the next per the next Department over that manager is not going to go out on a limb so if you did something like what you were saying it would be the manager has to get it approved by the Town Administrator because right now he's hand he would he's our human resource person so that person the manager would have to prove it to the um the Town Administrator who would then either bring it to the board or in some way so that that makes it more accable so that there's one judge who can even the playing field and it's not this manager is doing it for this one and this manager is not doing it for someone else was out the same eff it's situation and it's very difficult and that's also a little bit of a a training issue as well on the managerial side right so talk about employees being trained on you want managers to be trained on it as well y okay did you I just want to you know I think that we we as the town do a pretty good job incentivizing our employees for self-development by paying them mileage or or other small pieces for them to go there once they go to the class and they take it I I I'm in line with what Frank says is that shouldn't be something that you get as extra because it's self-developing it's not as if we're buying a new tool for the town that's going to stay with the town because when that employee leaves he's going to take that train with it and it's no longer here so rewarding him for a short that and to me that's just my offer to treat it that way so I think what we do currently should be sufficient um all employees should want to get better at what they're doing uh except for the average employee just wants to come in and punch a poot and get his check um and if we start throwing out education stiens or whatever um that that that's not really going to kind of Drive what I think our purpose is I kind of think on the equity issue um there's like Town accountant has a lot of opportunities for educational incentive so to speak I mean the certification that she would get that she can use and so on I don't think that applies across the board like our building maintenance department uh I mean what what possibility education could could they take that would really impact their work right I go to school would be electrician I don't know you know to me it's that's really a subjective a really difficult to make it fair so with you two guys I think that you know we're going if the town is going to pay the employee and go to school and going to pay for the uh Transportation back and forth pay for the hotel if we have to or and pay for the course I mean that's that's good for the employee it's in the sense that they build their resume if they're looking to move on it's good for the town while they're here we get better work on that's my VI before you do I'll mayor graes 98 C Bosworth Road I just have a question so with the the cost of living and the step every year every employee basically going to get pretty much 5% a year uh no because it's very the only way you get a full 4.8 would be if your anniversary date was July 1st cuz you're not seeing that additional step until so hypothetically you may see an employee who if their anniversary date is um towards the end of the fiscal year they're not getting that 2.8% until let's say their anniversary is June 1st now they not getting that 2.8% until June 1st so they get the 2% July first right and then that additional increase wouldn't be until whenever their anniversary that go until their next anniversary so it will be within that year they'll get an additional four point whatever from their year until their next year I'm just I'm just trying to figure out what their percent increase will be pretty much it varies for every position if you annualize it it varies for for every position depending on when you would get that but the idea is you get a cost living adjustment which we're proposing 2% if you get a step every step is 2.8% and what is the dollar value for just this next upcoming year for everybody to get a step in the 2% it is around $200,000 or 217,000 and so the next year it will be even more than that because it's 2. 2% on top of that plus the 2 point okay Mary distract did did we reach a consensus on last point a v so we did we need to take a vote okay so let's um so um I suppose the phas it U what section this is so we're all talking about the same thing uh 3520 incentive increases so the proposal is to eliminate the uh education incentive that's what's that's what we have as a proposal um does um anybody let's say by show hands um do we want to um do we agree with that we put it that I'm just trying to figure out a way to save this that's all so does that by show hands we agree with eliminating as is proposed in there so if you do then raise your hand Okay so we've got one two 3 4 5 6 seven okay so as a consensus then we're going to just leave it as before so eliminate the incend increases eliminate correct yeah it's eliminated as as our obviously disagree we have a consensus okay anyone else have anything else will tell us you have a question early on oh yeah erini six day run on the part where they have the sick Bank let's just say somebody sick they come and they ask for the days do they have to keep coming and asking for like so where I work we have have a sick Bank you get 30 days and then you have to resubmit paperwork from the doctor's office so it's every couple of of months you have to like almost get re-evaluated to see if you're still entitled to that sick bank is is there any wording like that in there at all let's see and the other thing that's in ours is that if you have to be like um almost like professional stash you have to have been working for let's say three years before you're even entitled to take anything from the six six months yeah six months I think that's in there but I think it says 6 months so we don't have it as a re-evaluation period they just have to provide the um the documentation and then we limit it to and do they have to have take like an I also you have to have you have to have already taken all your personal time and all your own personal time and all your everything before you can actually go to the sick Bank yeah long so yeah exhaust all sick leave is using so we just have it as sick leave they have to exhausted all sick leave but not like personal time vacation time and all that stuff as written in here now is that anything to consider I would and I also think that they should have and I understand every every circumstance is completely different and devastating and all that stuff but somebody can't just automatically think like okay I've got all my sick time and I'm just going to get these 90 days no matter what they can't you know what I mean I don't know just a consideration so what's the group think about that making uh I guess what you said what you're suggesting is that we add to this to say that all all personal time and and vacation time has to be used before and and sick time has to be used before you can get to the sick what is it think vote on that so we want to make that change you do raise your hand want what the CH exhaust well the change would be there would be added into that it would say uh that you have to exhaust your sick time your PTO essentially PTO which you don't have sick time vacation time and personal days before you can get to the sick Bank can I just ask how is the sick Bank funded like is it people say oh I want to give 3 days of my time or 4 hours it's a voluntary basis it's just whoever wants to put Cody what's the max you can give uh 200 hours per employee per year honestly I mean I don't want to I don't want to cause any more discussion in there it seems to me that six Banks should be administered by a different organization like the employees themselves the problem with that we had that but it stopped nobody nobody was doing it nobody wants to be the bad guy I mean employees aren willing to administer I don't want to mess it up yeah I mean that's if if that's the case I mean it may be worth considering just removing it completely because if it's not if no one's overseeing it we had this recently someone was looking to potentially utilize it and I looked at the byw and I said well we don't have a three member board and then we really had hard time finding the records of even what was left in there so it was do we have to see how much we in there I do not have that number I mean one of the things that bothered me about this whole sck Bank thing is the fact that that there's a lot of um right word would be well I'll say discretion but I don't mean it that way on the Town Administrator pressure on the Town Administrator you know somebody says oh you know I really need that extra time and and so it's up to him to make the decision but should he be making that decision since it's not it a sick bank is not our Town's money it's the employee money right that employee gave the time in and we've accounted for it that's part of our accounting you we've accounted for so much SI time for in total it just seems to me it ought to be administered more by the employees could we include language to that effect that it would be handled by the employees and that's how it that's how it is now that's that's what it says now could we do could they do a like a vote system could they do you know instead of doing the three panels now you putting it into everyone else's hands REM you can't use that but we're removing us we're letting the employees decide for themselves but we still have to keep record of it we still have to track it we could so what recently happened is a good example of it we just you know at some point dissipated and who's ultimately responsible because we had this three member employee committee um yeah I don't know I don't know what the answer is I just I think if yeah we need it because at the end of the day it is it is the town sick time we granted as the employees but it is still that you know the town is granting that as a benefit to the employees no I I didn't mean I I didn't mean to add it's a nice go thing but so let's get back to what was suggested that uh we add to this that before you can get to the sick Bank you have to exhausted your own sick time uh your vacation time and your personal days so we have agreement on that okay does anybody else have any other comments for us anything else for us to take into account yeah yes a couple of things um first of all I actually agree with John I don't know your name about the the bement time I believe that um you know you should give your employees a little bit more time reement time and I just say this knowing um personally I just recently went through it it is a very difficult time um and I I just think that you do need some some more time um I'm trying to excuse me on the on the Bri time so our discussion that we had I think um be wrong but I think the discussion we had was not on immediate family it was on the aunts and uncles and so on that's what you're talking about stuff like that but that's why I saying I agree with him because of people's situations and even if you do have to travel if if you do live with your inoss or you know whoever um it is a very difficult process like you have there's so much to do like never mind the whole grieving process there's you know just taking care of family members like taking care of your spouse like you know their mother or father just died you know it's just a lot so my suggestion was if you did just give everybody you know say like the three three days and then you could put it in for approval so if I do need extra days if I do need five days cuz I have to go out state or whatever put it in to get approv to go through the Town Administrator you know obviously your department head and then got a approval but you know to at least put it in there that you can try to get it approved to get extra breef for days if you just do up to five days I I believe that you've got personal time vacation time that time can be used for that as well in addition to your bement time of 4 days and 3 days or whatever it says in the byla currently you have your extra days that you can U utilize that time for travel because adding one more day here isn't going to take up for travel in in all those things that you're talking about I've gone through the process as well when I Liv cross country and had to come back to Massachusetts you know and I was here for two weeks to deal with a situation my family's estate and things of that nature and I used over my 4 days of bement I used my vacation and personal time to do that right and that's understandable I understand that but I'm just saying I don't see the issue with getting approved to get some extra days like I didn't have to go out of state when it just happened however I was still out for you know over a week you know to deal with you know to help my mom and to help you know you know the situation understand but why couldn't you use your vacation and or well I did personal time I I had to but I think would it be not a terrible option to give your employees some extra I understand that but as a public entity in taxpayers paying for that we only have so many dollars to work with understand so I I just I just want to clarify that my my recommend I I completely agree with with what you're saying Frank that everyone has their PTO that they can use when when the situation calls for it what I'm saying is that the character characterization of the individual within the family that passes away should not dictate the amount of time or the amount of flexibility we're going to give an employee in that situation that's that's what I'm saying I'm not saying that you should be using PTO or not PTO if you need to be gone for 2 weeks use your PTO that's reasonable but if you're going to be gone for 5 days because you have to go to Connecticut to bury your aunt or your spouse's Aunt we should afford that same flexibility I mean we talked we just talked about incentives for an employee I me we we want to be an employee where people want to stay let's start with the basics of the of the human nature of life which is showing the same the same treatment across the board that's what my point is we're essentially giving values to people's family members right and not every family to your point is constructed the same way the recommendation would be a flat that's we talked about before a flat number and the flat number would be three four I think it it should be consistent across the board regardless of what the family member is that's what it should be the night okay so we'll talk about that in a second do you have anything else you want to us yeah I have two more things um next the other thing was the meal break um so in here you know it says that um get tamy where are you what can you tell us what page it's there what 35- what um it's 35-23 3523 meal breaks there you go meal breaks okay got it so we have you um you have the 30 minute break which is fine you go by I open my to back but um so but you don't have the on Tuesdays we're here for 11 and A2 hours so I mean should that be in there like an extra like 15 minutes like um I think um you know one of the things I've said this to departments before is you know if somebody wants to take like a 15-minute break that's fine we do afford people have paid 30 minute lunch break which is very rare usually breaks are not paid you know lunch breaks in particular um so my thought was if you want to take an extra 15 minutes you know that's fine but I I knew that I just didn't know if had to be in here it seems like everything else is M I would I I wouldn't recommend it just because you know the the 4-day schedule here at Town Hall is a benefit to the employees um and we're already providing the uh you know half hour paid meal break but again is it's something you guys would like to include we this would have been uh a reviewed by I suppose it should be reviewed by whatever labor Council that would tell us if we following state law right that's what this gives right this is St I mean case you entitle a certain break after a certain period of time but you should follow that yeah abely I just didn't know that's all I'm it all right you're doing great um and then just my last thing is um about the the holiday so when the holiday you know falls on the days that we work since we do we only get paid for the 8 hours however most of the days we work 9 and a half we're having to make up an hour and a half each holiday and yes we can use our vacation or person one time and stuff like that or we have to you know make up the time but if the holiday also falls on a Tuesday that's 3 and a half hours now that I have to use personal vacation I just don't understand why if calls on my day like or Monday and I'm scheduled to work my 9 and 1/2 hours why can't I get pay the 9 and 1 half hours for the holiday I would have been here anyway so if technically we're not talking the to any more money I would have still been here if it falls on the Tuesday and you know if if Joe Works 12 hours on Monday and the holiday falls on his his 12h hour day he can pay 12 hours too I don't understand why we only get paid 8 hours what 25 I think 26 3526 that's the page page 18 [Music] 3585 18 you said Frank yeah 3518 would be your page and 35.6 would be you got the item so so Tammy your your consensus is Tuesdays is our long our long days right so so those are were open extended hours so if the holiday falls on that extended hour day any day if it falls on a Monday right I work 9 and 1 half hours but I'm only getting paid eight why I'm still working the concern is Equity um point of view we have departments and operations that can't you know work a 4-day work week it's one of the nice things about you know the working here it's the 4day work week but the Council on Aging the library for instance they they can't work a 4 day you know we need them there Monday through Friday so it becomes an equity issue of um they can't they don't have that option to have the the you know that schedule um and now they are technically would be getting compensated less for their holidays than you know the the schedule here but they're getting compensated right I'm not asking for extra time or extra money or extra anything I'm just asking to paid for what I would have gotten paid if I did work that day so can you can you word it in a way that says the um the full holiday is defined as the employees normally scheduled hours something to that effect so we certainly could that the only concern is is the employees who don't have the ability to work the the a separate schedule um but that that would be covered so if no it definitely would cover us it's just Ane Equity inequity thing inity because they don't have that option right so so somebody's holiday they get 10 hours off and another person gets 8 hours off you know so you work 10 hour day 8 hour day you would still get paid your 10 hours and I'm going to my 8 hours I don't want any extra time sure I just get paid for my hours I would have worked anyway you know falls on a holiday Sandy has something to say about this I'm just going to ask so if a holiday falls on a Friday then you don't want to get paid for that holiday correct because you don't work on that holiday so the holiday falls on Friday I know but this is what I'm saying we get Veterans Day veterans day is November 11th and Veterans Day is on a Friday you get no money for but otherwise you would otherwise you would get that right that's good point it's the same thing just spread out alls you know I've heard this concern you know my the point of view is it's a benefit to work a 4-day work week um in the other in the other the other op do that I presented is we go to a 5day work we go to 5 8 hour days you know 8:30 to 4:30 and that's and then that way there this isn't an issue um I presented that in a survey to the employees and you know they overwhelmingly chose the 4day work [Music] week come on up come up peggyk you pter um Board of Health of the administrative assistant for the Board of Health uh June I'll be here 17 years so I've always been 30 hours and I've never worked a Friday and still had to make up my time so if I'm not working Friday and the holiday falls on a Friday then I don't get paid for Friday and when I'm interviewed and I accept a position I'm accepting the hours you're offering that's just my point so I I didn't catch you want what do you want to do when I go to an interview if if there's a position open and I go to an interview and it's a 5-day work week and I accept that position I know what I'm accepting I'm accepting a 5-day work week right if it's a 4-day work week then that's what I'm accepting so that's what I get when the holiday falls on whatever day what what you want to make it change to something I'm not following what what do you want to change yeah what your she's trying to get to what you want to do the holiday what What chan said that if we work an 8 hour work day we should get paid for an 8 hour work day if we work that whole day okay all right uh okay anyone else have any comments so let's go back to the committee here uh we we three points to figure out so uh we're going back to the extra bement do the committee want change anything um I know you do but there consensus here I'm just trying to move this along yeah let have um do we want to leave the bement as is all right so so right now it's 3 and 4 is that we have Cody [Music] we leave it as is so we have that's seven so we have seven so we're going to leave bement as is um meal breaks um I mean state law trumps any bylaw we have anyways so whatever State LA is um we already do afford the benefit of a paid meal break so meal break is paid 30 minute 30 minutes minutes braks we're never going to have says you have to give your employees two paid 15 minute breaks if they work 8 hours right you don't have to pay them for their lunch what we do at Town Hall is we don't take our 215 minute breaks we get a paid for lunch so that's what it is as far as the extended hours though there may be something in there you have to give an additional pain prak for that number that's what I'm hours it might be something like that I know that to if you work like 6 hours you get 15 minute break hour hours suggest we have this reviewed by whatever State Bar is I don't think we need that in the bylaw though state law trumps trumps whatever bylaw we have anyway yeah yeah all right the last thing is this issue about holiday is first of all does the does this group the the the wag and Personnel Board uh want to consider any change gu did they have the choice of working for 10hour days and I have Friday off it wasn't mandatory correct yes no we tried to make it mandatory but if employees are really against it we've allowed them to work um a half day on Friday with a with a contingency that that is your schedule it doesn't change back and forth that's your schedule so it it was off you can work in 4 10hour days and have Friday off is what I'm asking that's what the schedule is yeah not 41 hour days it's um you do n you do 9 and 1/2 hours Monday Wednesday Thursday and then you do 11 and 1/2 on Tuesday when we're High when they're high those of the hours they high four nowadays we okay okay okay so having heard everything what's the consensus do we want to you this holiday issue or not let me say anyone wants to leave it as is without changing it should hands so we got 1 2 3 4 5 6 seven eight okay so we're going leave that again this is a this is an advisory committee so we're going to make this proposal in town meeting if you want to get up the town meeting and try to change it you're you're certainly welcome to to try to persuade the crowd but we're we're we're trying to make a uh uh uh uh our best judgment in terms of what we're going to propose so not meant to insult anybody or make you feel like we're not taking as seriously as we are uh but again it's a you know we have to make a decision all right next up we did so let's let's do a formal vote on the bylaw as uh amended amended tonight as amended tonight the changes that we talk is there anything else speak now forever hold your peace we're going to discuss the um evaluation forms that's next yeah that's not part of the that's not part of just that all bylaw it doesn't the bylaw spell out the evaluation form it doesn't it spells out evaluation but not the form count the DAT okay so uh all those in favor of uh recommending the bylaw uh as uh amended and presented tonight raise your hand so we have a unanimous vote on that nice work guys so let's let's move on to uh the next thing which would be the evaluation yep we do so um in speaking with our labor Council he had reviewed our existing evaluation forms that we utilize and um he recommended some updates we also there's been um there's just been a inconsistency can I just say one I just want to thank the board for recognizing that the employees do know what's expected of them and work hard so thank you okay than guys uh there was inconsistency across departments using different forms um there was one on the website but again it was I would receive two or three different kinds of evaluation forms and then in speaking with labor Council his recommendation would really be to implement um forms like this these directly came from him with some some tweaks uh you'll see the first one is the regular just Town employee evaluation formid it does yes so that um and I mean it's pretty pretty self-explanatory it's pretty you know straight forward um you provide the ratings on scale of 1 to four um so you know three a rating of three would meet that be satisfactory right now we have the the most recent form um I've looked at is five it has five different ratings so you have satisfactory above satisfactory and then yeah exceptionally above um outstanding yeah I'm sorry outstanding so uh this is more of just the ratings there on the several categories uh and then you have a summary right areas for improvement um strengths uh and then the second one is specifically for department heads that includes a self- evaluation U component for the department heads here uh again this is there this is more of the five rating for department heads where you have the meets expectations exceeds or exceptional um and this is not as number driven but more um you know detailing your accomplishments goals for the year to come you do still have some of that numbers aspect in there uh under the under the categories can you recommended that you have two different forms one for managers and one for employes yes that's a good idea okay um why don't the employees of the town the rank and file will say have a self- evaluation for this we could um I think a a lot of it goes to the level of um the level of uh the level that goes into our department heads and managers and doing these evaluations for the staff um so trying to keep them simple you know on the simpler side um it's you know it's yeah that that's that was the idea behind this I think that a self evaluation form by the employee when submitted to his department manager would help the both of them in the evaluation of the employee it certainly can again it goes back to um what I've experienced in the past is sometimes that happens and then the manager will copy and paste exactly what the employee right what posted um in their self- evaluation so the idea with the department heads is either myself or the you know appointing authority or board is doing the um evaluation and there is um typically more attention to Det than there would be with some of the other you know some other departments just depending on the the level of management but again it's we can certainly look to include that this is just kind of what labor Council had recommended based on um what he's experienced in other communities well it allows the employee and self evaluation to be able to give his input ahead of time mhm and and he could let his manag to know what his goals are what what his goals for the upcoming year would be you know that he wants to take training that he wants to do this you know or he'd like to move to a different apartment whatever it might be um and if we're concerned about a manager that is cutting and pasting the self- evaluation employee then we got an issue with a manager yeah I completely agree and that needs to be dealt with or do we just have the employee set send the self evaluation into the Town Administrator and he provides that to the um manager prior to the interview and evaluation of the employee um no I mean I would recommend keeping it with the with the department head you know they know what their staff is doing I don't you know I'm not in intricate details of every Department um to know what you know what each individual staff member is doing it it try to review these as they come in just to make sure that they're you know at least this effort put in and I'll continue to do that if there is a self evaluation component with um regular employees making sure that yeah we're not Department are not just you know copy and pasting so yeah it's certainly something that can be included if if you'd like it to be yeah I I've worked with self- evaluations in my previous life with the employees and they and they worked out very well because you understood what the employee was really looking for ahead of time and it ALS Al made the employee feel good about what they were doing as well cuz they're setting their goals too you know not just telling somebody what your goals might be you know or the manager saying well I want your goals to be this and that so we could Implement a component where the um maybe not necessarily A A self-evaluation but for staff it's you know you you work on joint goals you know accomplishments and goals highlight some of that um you know few months ago I did an evaluation and I it was on department head and I did um a self- evaluation I had them just complete actually the form the same one I did it and then we sat down I reviewed it end of time and one of the challenges was you know I I thought they were a good employee satisfactory got above satisfactory in several categories they rated themselves at top at the top for every single one and then it felt like more the whole time going through when you disagree with me you don't think I'm a good employee and it no it's not at all the case you you're satisfactory or seeds satisfactory it seeds expectations in several categories but they've done their own evaluation at this point and they feel that their evaluation is kind of the way it should be yeah but we're not asking them to rate themselves on the off one to four scale we're just asking them to to fill in allance here about what their goals and achievements are for the coming year yeah so that yeah that's what I was referring to when we could do uh like that goals and achievements rather than a full self- evaluation correct just just little one page one here for the Department propos yeah this is pretty good for the rank file as well I think it is sure I think it allows for them to be able to communicate more effectively of what they're looking for going into the next year and trying to develop their skill set going forward like a guy that's working a working a shovel might want to learn how to become a Co operator you know Y and be able to go and take training for that get his accreditation so he can learn to operate a hoist and stuff you know or get a CDL driver's license or whatever it might be absolutely so are you suggesting are you you're not objecting to the uh the valuation form for the employees you're just suggesting that there should be another component to it that would be the self- evaluation yeah I think the employee should do a self valuation of themselves I think I think it's a good tool to have both for the employee and for the manager okay um I think or at least be able to have a section and half a commentary I think that's one of the big differences between changes there's com section but it seems to be more gear to the supervisor not the employee so that's kind of missing and then also in the end here the areas for improvement I think that's a great opportunity to either maybe create an additional section or within there add a specific component that speaks to goals for the you know following year as to like OB objectives whether they be like additional training things of that nature that address the area for improvement like not just states with about what's the you know what are the key Milestones to accomplish those yes so we could look to literally just include the self- evaluation form from the department head one into the regular staff one may if that is something that you guys are interested we have a cons on that do anybody object to adding that self self evaluation it's for all employees right all employ self evaluation so just one comment on the self evals though I I think it's important my recommendation would be to have a section in here as well where the employee can identify their areas for improvement or the weaknesses um it's not captured anywhere but I think that's an important conversation between employee manager that needs to happen that sort of what Frank's talking about right like some sort of some sort of a form out it's just it's just the self EV Val there's just no question that talks about weaknesses it's all about strengths I yeah all right any objection to that no I think that's on make that change all right anybody else have anything else well for for right now we only do one right we do one a year to me that seems way too long of a time a check in or something there has to be I mean if you look at like private and I know I want to keep going to private sector right but but a lot of companies I don't think we need to go quarterly but let's say you go over something and then a month later something big happens you're not going to do an evaluation or a checkin for a year like well to me it seems like we're tying it strictly to the monetary step system and not the performance right like I feel like we need we need to have a checkin system because you don't want anybody to hear their shortcomings at their review should be no surprises right exactly that's bad management if they're hearing their shortcomings at their yearend review so I feel like to to help our employees into make sure we're giving the best service we can give at least twice a year I see what you're saying my concern is a right good management is your regularly meeting with your employees it's something I push in department head meetings you should be having staff meetings with your employees um one-on ones with your employees you know this is areas of Improvement concerns nothing should be a surprise in these performance delegations um the cons and that's if that's not happening then again that's a management aspect from the top down that we need to make sure department heads are folling through and having those meetings my concern with having formal um multiple valuations a year is we now again I don't want to go back to checking the box and if you're doing it twice a year I'll be happy if we can get this once a year for right now because it's it's not happening right now we're not it's not happening once a year right now so I think just if we can get departs to check in and have regular meetings which a lot of that does happen then that's yeah that's just good management to make sure people are updated but and maybe it doesn't need to be as a formal evaluation as we do at year end but maybe a simplified version that we can touch on strengths weaknesses uh open-ended questions a one sheet even just to just to check in you know don't even call it an evaluation call it a check-in you know a one sheet checkin to make sure that the man manager and the employee on the same page I just I it's I I support what you're saying John I think that's absolutely the correct way to do it and I think it should be formalized at the 6mon break because if you're going to go at one year and set goals for an individual you should come in 6 months and say here's what we said you were going to do in June it's December where are you at against that and it's either what's going on and what's dragging you down or great job your own track to be where you need to be in the next 6 months and then everybody signs off on that and you're back you know you go back to work and that would help eliminate upset Folks at the end of the year that would say wait a minute I I thought we were both doing on the same page well you know you have that that notorized check-in where you know hey no I explained to you you needed to do X Y and Z or I think you're great you're you're on your way you know so I think it would alleviate a lot of um anxiety and a lot of maybe anger at the year end level I would agree with that so to the discussion that we just had about um not wanting to add the additional pay work throughout the course of the year um because it is a lengthly process could we incorporate um a goal specific SE through the review process so at the six Monon Mark of a year or a quarterly Mark of the Year this form can drive that checkin conversation you have the measurables on the goals that you can use to marry up to their current performance so you're not creating new carries along with the process yeah I I yes the answer is yes we can do whatever the board's plure is um I I'm hopeful so we're working on a new Financial system that has an HR module um and part of that like I'm sure a lot of people use ADP or you know some other systems and they have right performance valuation systems and it it pops up right every 6 months these are the goals you established what's the status and so it's logistically a lot simpler we can definitely look to implement something like that in the inter term um on paper now and we'll yeah we'll make I'll try to make sure there's compliance it's just with the paper aspect it's hard for me to make sure there's that compliance um but we can definitely implement it and then the goal would be once we have the HR module I would be able to pull a report and say so and so hasn't done their checking and then I can really enforce it um not to say that I won't now it just logistically are these anual performances done at the same time of year or they individual each employee each employees that's it's on their simply if you're saying it's better than doing 100 at once it's one of the challenges of it to John's point is we had six steps previously right so you had to have this evaluation to get that uh six step so a lot of times it was the employee reminding the department that hey I need my evaluation because you needed that to get your step once they were maxed out the employee would remind their department head and and we don't have a system per se as oh so and so it's anniversary coming up make sure you do a performance evaluation it really just falls on the department making sure they're aware so again one of those things hopefully we can logistically fix um and I don't see that as an issue now because no one's at the top of there at at step 12 so employees are going to be making sure their department heads are doing their evaluations applies to uh like the call fire department for example I mean technically yeah they have they have four sets we have 25 guys on Fall fire department and the fire chief has to do a annual evaluation on each one of them all of different times I he's going to do nothing to spend all of these time right table right especially if we add six month just seems to me um having done it as a manager myself uh both ways one in the annual date everybody gets reviewed at the same time and the other one you know individual it it's just a lot of work especially in a bigger department now something small like s could keep track of her assistant I know when you start but when you start to get to the highway department where he's got I don't know how many DN five six right does we have high that's don't they have software you can buy I know I know they have software you can buy that the employee can import manager can input all goes off to the town ministrator and save there and review it streamline it's a great process yeah we're definitely looking at that like I said I'm very hopeful that our finance software it has an HR module we're hopeful that be able use that if we're not we're definitely going to we need some sort of HR module or system to use performance evaluations is just one aspect of it I think one of them is called Guardian guardian tracker that's one of them you can use the point of having an annual review is now required because of the step increase you have to have a review to get your step right so we're going to have to do it it seems to me we should we should put it in place and then hope we can get the technology to move it so that it's a little bit easier to work with yeah the only thing changing at this point is the physical form we use right yeah and actually Mak there it's always there Pap I think I just think we should get started personal F and then so do we do we Okay this form here and then and then make it known that the board is really interested in streamlining it and maybe adding the a six Monon check in you do one year right now and then we can certainly we could add um a six-month check-in on paper and you know make and really try to make sure everyone's doing it I'm just letting you know logistically it's going to be difficult for me to without without an HR Director true we're just a module it's not even the Staffing it's just software now physically paper paper make sure it's got to get paper right and it's not t right that at least the annual one's tied to a step so we know that's going to get done cuz they can't get their increase it won't go through the accounting department until they that change of status has been signed off um where the six-month one it's really going to be up to the manager which manager should you know the department had level staff for a reason and should be doing that so we may be trying to accomplish a lot by adding another review in the bill as opposed to the per the purpose of this is so that that step increase thing gets done correctly y and purpose of reviews is to encourage Improvement and so on sure you could say Implement a six-month review process effective fiscal 25 right because then that gives us between now and July where your anniversary comes up you get your your regular review and then starting at fiscal 25 once you get that six- Monon market so it's a little more time a little more implementation time if that's something you're considering yeah or maybe we start off with just the formal 6 month check-in I guess you know discussion between the employee and the manager just to say hey how am I doing we should keep in mind too that like unlike the bylaw that we voted these are not town meeting things these are policies of the Town W person so this can be we we could have a meeting we change this one here we're making a recommendation and then we'll see how yeah the the evaluations really came about because I wanted to get training in for the department heads and the first thing I looked at is what's the form we use and I said okay there's different forms everyone use these different forms Universal is this the best process so it's just to try to get the training in place and so Department EDS are better equipped to do the the process oh maybe maybe what we should do is just get just start with this and then uh ask uh ask for a review of it like I don't know 3 months from now or 6 months from now yeah maybe sometime in the beginning of till 25 so sometime in the summer sometime over the summer maybe you give you enough time to see how it works with the few so that seems to me that at least that way we'll have some idea of you know is it too much paper is it not of up is it accomplishing what we want from the office and that again this is something we can change we have okay yeah I think the four point still is fine I would just suggest that we change the language on here to to match the bylaw so for is above average and three being satisfactory so je ties back to the oh yeah I'll make sure that's consistent yeah so that say are we going to be able to include a self evaluation form for the employees for for their manager yeah I would I would anticipate taking that self- evaluation um updating it based on uh EJ's comments the you know uh areas of improvement for the employee to also knowe and then just making that standard for both the uh staff level and for the Department level okay okay um give me one second I'm just putting a reminder in here uh the cola we need to we we touched upon it in the BW just want to make sure it's formal that you have a 2% Cola for any positions that require their compensation and classification study and then it would be a 4% for the any positions not included cuz we're doing a 2% for 24 and a 2% for 25 we sort of agreed to that because we already voted for spot yeah it is there I just want to make sure everyone is on the same page please so so 2% Cola for any position that was included in the study that we already we took it we upped in fiscal 24 current year there's several non-classified positions mostly part-time stien positions we didn't touch them fiscal 24 so technically they haven't gotten an they didn't get an increase at all last year so the mentality was give them a 2% for this year fiscal 24 and then 2% like we're doing for everyone else for fiscal 25 so it ends up being 4% but it's based on fiscal 23 number so it's 4% increase based on fiso 23 so 2% for each year and those numbers are already calculated in it is that's what that's what was in the draft the bylaw tonight was those numbers and that's what we budgeted before before the finance committee um it's just yeah the board is always Ved to it so we've already going that yeah just want make evaluation we've done that um any other item I guess that we left ibody want to stay later that Cas so we be voting on which evaluation form we're going use you can vote to accept the evaluation forms with the with the U comments tonight feedback okay so we have do a joint motion if you'll make that motion we have a second to Second approve the evaluation form with the changes that we're talking about tonight okay uh all in favor that is unanimous all those in favor say I thank thank you guys