than good afternoon uh this is a meeting of the hamton board of Selectmen being held in the town housee Auditorium on October 1st 2024 2 p.m. the meeting is being conducted in person and remotely using video conferencing technology please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance Pledge alance to the flag the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible liy and justice can everybody hear us okay with the fan running Dave can you hear us all right okay okay uh is anyone else recording the meeting other than us I don't see anybody okay the purpose of of today's we got a couple of things on the agenda the main purpose of today's meeting is to decide uh regarding an appeal on the R versus hamon lawsuit Self Storage lawsuit uh the appeal closes on April 8th I believe our opportunity to appeal if we decide to do that uh as it stands now the land Court Judge has found in favor of the plaintiff U Garvey self I guess H LLC have self storage if upon in favor of the plaintiffs and has remanded the um case back to the planning board to uh as they've ordered to uh consider whether back the planning board to hold a lawfully noticed public proceeding after the board shall expeditiously issued a special permit requested by the plaintiff after considering whether imposition of reasonable conditions is warranted including the 21 conditions approved in the decision under under review um the question that was we've met with our attorney in executive session on Monday evening the our attorney recommends advises that uh an appeal would be difficult uh in less than a 50 chance of winning it the plaintiff's attorney has reported to our attorney that if we go forward with the appeal they will seek to have attorneys fees and uh other Awards pay to pay for their attorneys if we appeal uh and so we have to make a decision the other thing we have to has to be determined and there's a lot of confusion about and our attorney has spoken to several other attorneys uh how does the board do this there's a different makeup of the board two of the members of the board have never heard any evidence in the case and exactly how does the judge think this would proceed if they because he says you can have that impose reasonable conditions including the 21 condition so technically they could have put other conditions on but how do you put the other conditions on if you haven't heard any evidence so we need to figure that out so our attorney thinks that the cost of an appeal for us would be about $50,000 if we lose the appeal there's a chance more than a reasonable chance I guess he says that they would might get attorney's fees so that's the decision we need to make and the deadline is the 8th of April our attorney on obious of August our attorney our attorney is on vacation until Monday out the country to out the country as well to administrator and Don the point I think Brian did weigh in during a meeting and Brian does have a laot degree as well yeah and I think his Baseline was he concurred with Jesse in Jesse's opinion right I'm sorry John I couldn't hear that that's right I'm saying attorney Our Town Administrator AG with the town yeah about the chances of winning the appeal you said less less than less than 50% 25 huh 25 you wouldn't give us a number okay so can you com up by the board and I just have one other question if we and this goes back to my days on planning um judge Howard said that the applicant at one time could sue for three times the damages they're saying double they're saying double right aren there different different different types of cases have different amount and I don't know this was this was a while so I just so they had said double I think workplace things are Tri trouble damages done attorneys said [Applause] double the areas of concern that um we had were if we seek clarification from the judge on the makeup of the planning board and their ability to reissue oversee they don't they don't even have a majority of the board that was on the board at that time so the clarification we needed from the the judge was can they reasonably hear the hearing being nobody was there for the evidentiary part of it and the fact that if we seek clarification we lose the appeal window as well but I believe Town attorney said he could put in for an appeal with a clarification note in the appeal I'm not sure how that works since our attorney's out a country until until Monday yeah didn't didn't I hear Don say that the order said that the planning board should have a legal hearing or a legal process right so the new board would look at the proposal I mean you can't have a board that doesn't exist du anything so the new board would look at the package um and that would be it would be a new hearing I would think that with the current board uh would it be a new hearing or it would say rehear it it have to be a new hearing right and that was the question before when new members came on they had to get caught up to speed and walk let me read what what the Jud okay said that it's order that the decision of the board of December 22nd 2022 is hereby an olded it is further ordered and remanded to the board for a lawfully noticed proed public proceeding after which the board shall expeditiously issue the special permit reques by the plaintiff after considering whether imposition of reasonable conditions is warranted including the 21 conditions approve the decision under review so it's over hear no it just has to be legally just right legally no it can be just a doesn't have to be a I don't oh you think it's just a posted meeting yes yes so then then but then if one of the other newer members says well you know what I want to add this condition and that would be okay well yeah we don't know that that that's what he really means or not that's the clarification and then we're trying to find it says reasonable conditions so the board would have to vote on conditions that they find reasonable and additional yeah I mean because the 21 still yeah well 20 no they would CL would have to vote to do that 21 they'll stand from what I read on that did say an addition to right right what condition whether imposition or reasonable conditions Wen including the 21 condition so if they're warranted they if they're still warrant yeah if still members may say you know I don't think we need to put in an 8ot fence I don't know what the the thing is but you know I do see those as two separate things and I think that's our Quant right here is the appeal and the makeup of the board conflated together that's kind of the problem we have here and I look at the fact that we've got advice from basically we're very fortunate that our town administator has a law background M background yeah and also concurred with the town attorney that a well-respected jurist as he's told us a a process that went through without any defect in the process again his point is that the appeal is based Bas on the process not the merits of the case did the judge screw up somewhere along the way and his point is it was meticulous they did a visit to the site it's going to be extremely unusual for the appell court to overturn this jurist this isn't a one-year guide this is somebody who has been to app pellet and not been overturned so do we encumber the town's money on something we think has very little chance of success so that's the next qu I'm speaking from advisory um my question is is about how much more we spent 50 about right I don't really know if we summed up Jesse's things I would say we had a break over private guys I would think now we're building a 2300 range for his time something like that yeah I would think maybe 20 25 20 probably 25 my my my my concern is to I I I understand the prospects of losing the case but I think we need to clarify what the judge exactly wants us to do on this before we go do something and it gets appealed we end up in court again because the plaintiff doesn't want those conditions if someone has additional conditions you know I mean you know some if the new if the new board says I want to add these four other conditions and the plaintiff may say I don't want those conditions and then we're back in court again for that so we need clarification so I think if we file for an appeal we can always withdraw that appeal once we figure out what needs to be done that I see now you're asking the judge to guide you on what conditions the the the duly elected planning board can get away with putting which seems odd to me rather than just letting these qualified people just do what they feel is the right thing to do except they haven't heard the evidence well the evidence is the is the the project they were they're going to have a meeting or hearing where they get to look at the plans and talk to the applicants I guess three out of the five are familiar with the case from things perspective mad fresh eyes aren't the worst thing in the world no no no I'm not AR this is you know I've been on GBA for year we commonly get this where somebody else with the building inspector the planning board Whoever has dealt with this and they're not happy and they come to us to and we have to review everything yeah use our best judgment and that is the Avenue right if the pl didn't let the additional he could he could appeal to CBA or he could go back to yeah either one okay it was based on our conversation with our attorney on Monday that he thought if we did the appeal because it's within our rights legally to proceed with an appeal while he put in for clarification during that appeal process once the clarification came back we could withdraw the appeal it's more or less we're trying to not lose the right we don't have time for clarification right you're saying August right you know next week we don't have time for a clarification of the order what clarification would you get from the judge that would cause you to keep the appeal number one what number one you have two people on the board who have never even never don't know anything about the case and the Mullen rule says you can't vote on a Case unless you've been the adventure here they only have four MERS right you only can have one miss of meeting so they've had all misses of meetings number two by by saying the uh reasonable conditions does it mean we can add other conditions or not other conditions and the B concern is the vote of the people who haven't heard the cas you need a super majority now right you need a super majority I understand the process questions I'm trying to figure out what clarification the judge would give you that you would say no that's unacceptable we want to appeal no matter what he tells you as far as the process goes would that cause you to no no but but if we don't preserve our right to appeal we lose it we lose it okay what clarification would cause you to want to appeal because it looks a little unattractive to appeal so I I'm I'm not being I'm not trying to be difficult I'm just not understanding why you would file an appeal and what would cause you to want to okay you can you get a clarification without filing an appeal no well because the time will run out the time will run out the time will run out we had more time possible the judge could come back in two days and say this is what I meant is it possible sure but tough without the attorney asking him that from wherever he is is there anything the judge could tell you right now it sounds like it's not an attractive thing to appear is there anything when you ask for clarification that the judge could tell you you're going to have to do for process that would cause you to want to go forward with an appeal I can't think of anything I see the re the ruling and I understand Don's point but I read the ruling the judge ordered the special permit granted you could have five new people on the board and he's telling you sign off grant that I agree with you the board is whatever the board is today it's a brand new hearing meeting whatever right he's looked at the evidence Grant the spe now maybe the new people can look at it for new conditions or additional or look at the body of whatever but I think he's telling you I don't care if you have five new people there Grant the special permit I agree with you there's no way that you can have the old board exist suppose we could have one member resign pick up one the other member yeah yeah but I see it as he just he is ordering the special permit to be granted yeah that's that's what I read that's kind of what I took it as yeah and so I I can't figure out what he would do as far as how far you could go into conditions and that type of guidance that he might give you I can't think of any answer that would cause you to want to spend the 50 Grand to appeal M so the reasonable conditions are what he's saying any reasonable you know I guess you can't ask for the boom but the 21 will stay other words you know you have so what if they add four more or five more that's that's always the test and that's then the applicant in turn can say no we're going to appeal Dr cour mhm um so I don't know yeah again I I don't have that crystal ball it's a tough spot you're I mean I've never read the 21 conditions but I got to think they're probably pretty thorough as they stand they're pretty comprehensive you yeah they are I can't recall too many projects that had that many conditions on them in a planning obious conservation is different but so the question before the board is done is said yeah are we taking a flyer and appealing it with the thought that we can withdraw later is motion of some type I don't think it's worth committing the talent resources to that we've got pretty good legal opinions from both our person and our legal team that this is not something we that's going to benefit the town question I mean I'm torn I understand the the the ruling from the judge and obviously he knows more than I do but you know I think we owe it to the residents to appeal based on the community input at hearings and in public comment a few angry neighbors have cost us a lot of money on a project that I think probably if you read this should have been by right I mean not it'll bring Revenue to the town know that but again I understand the I understand the concerns because I live there we had a project similar to this several years ago in Don recalls with the school issue where we had advice saying it's a it's a lawsuit that you feel is the right thing to do but legally it may not work out and after $100,000 it didn't work out that one was I think supported by a much larger community outreach this one I don't know I don't know if you would go and ask a person on chapen road or South mson you know we could spe we could potentially be exposed to 50 $100,000 say we can't withdraw they get the thing like well thanks for the sidewalk you didn't put in we spent it on this potentially fous lawsuit we're the stewards of the town we are the stewards of the town There's an aquifer there and that's the other issue that's involved apparently didn't agree with that as a threat but he didn't agree with that because we didn't present evidence to the contrary this this is more of a case of people who bought houses next to commercial land who were now it wasn't commercial land then it was Farm there's a farm and the owners of the farm be clear the sabales are the ones who changed at the business yes not the new owners this was I think it was misrepresented about that two3 of the town meeting agreed right perhaps if they didn't after this whole thing went perhaps the somebody should have put a motion forward to take Self Storage out of the table of uses so if it came back it wouldn't be allow and and that's a possibility you know you have to again as as time goes on you look back and you rise you need to keep eyes in ey but again Monday morning quarterbacking I don't know I think Don's point is here where what is the board going to do it's a tough decision insane I can only say I'd hate to spend the extra money and then lose that decision and then have the applicant come back and super two times the damage so whatever whatever that means I mean I know you can with we've been told you can withdraw the appeal is there a cost because now the other person has spent money defending the appeal up to that point would they be allowed to look I spend money in the withdraw that's not I don't know enough about it I've only watched five episodes of Law and Order they didn't cover it I just go back Craig's point it's it's 50/50 there's this side and that side and they're both strong sides but you make a good point I I can't figure the advantage of filing the appeal if you're not planning on going through with it find time for the judges Clarity but I don't think I think the appeal the reason you would appeal is to overturn the judge's decision right but we we know that's uh our our Council has been that that's probably Low Pro probability right so somewhere between 1% and 49.9 and to be honest this is a public record and they can say look you even talked about this was technically maybe a frivolous appeal and that might not be viewed well you you're in a hard spot and I'm going to say that as a governmental body I I Look to You Know respect those decisions by the judge um it it it may not bode well for the town to come back and say you know we we're appealing your decision um maybe we go back and just ask for clarification and you you don't appeal you ask for I I understand you lose then lose your chance for appe well there's one other thing we can do and that is we have until the eth Jesse is way but perhaps there is somebody in his office that can ask that judge for clarification Don could post another meeting for the 7th basically and say look we're going to wait for clarification and say your honor when the planning board is not the same planning board how do we handle this okay and if they provide a path going forward I dick is going to say what does that how's that change what you're doing that that sounds like a wonderful question because there is some ambiguity I just I'm not sure why you need the appeal to as the question no we don't and my point is we have until the 7th technically we could say okay we have you know a chance to hopefully get clarification from Judge Smith you know in the next five business days before we actually have to make the hard decision although I don't know how long it takes to file an appeal I mean you have to give I think the lawyers a day to least put the paperwork together whatever yeah yeah so if the question before the board is why are we waiting to say yes or no it's just understanding how the judge plans this to happen maybe take a couple days and think about it Don said okay we're going to continue this and yeah make the call on Don I don't even know what is that Wednesday next week or something nth is over yeah so I think the eth with 31 days in July 30 days will be the e8th right yeah yeah so we might post again for the sth hoping we get a clarification on fifth or 6th from Judge Smith which might give Clarity to the board on how we meant that to be implemented that's an option we don't we have to vote the appeal prior to 30 days expiring you could say Let's uh task Jesse Monday Tuesday to try and get some Jesse and Brian get some clarity be back next week they'll be back Monday yeah I think both will so yeah that's an option we off to the 7th sure okay we'll continue this to the sth yeah yeah because I mean the point of the board is we need a little more information let's take the opportunity to get it right we'll continue this to the 7th and I'll I'll send an email right today just you'll get it you you'll get it you'll know okay right um maybe can I ask a question can you guys hear me office mad yeah can I just ask a question about um the clarification yeah so we've got two members that aren't well so I feel a little torn because we've got one member who wasn't on the board but is very familiar with the opposing side of the special permit case and I just want to make sure that we handle that correctly and appropriately and my second question is our other member um who may not be familiar with the case we have to get up to speed I just want to make sure that we have like a strong line on how we're sharing information with them without sharing in like adding things to the record because it's gone gone on for so long yeah I see what member what member do you mean Madison so David wasn't on the board and right but Pat was a member of the community who was against the storage units so I just want to be make sure we're in line with how we're handling all this yeah the himself yeah it's a question that's why we paid Jesse and Brian the big buck all right I'll send Jesse an email I'll tell Mrs Davenport to defer supper and I'll type the email you're wait until 2: in the morning I mean you'll know where he is all right thank you Madison all right so post you want to make another afternoon next week as well uh Craig any problem with the 7th yeah was I don't know yet still working on the second I've got a couple appointments in the morning but why don't we we do evening Trev uh evening you guys don't have a meeting next week right it's not until okay the following the 14 the only Don the only thing I like about it does give the staff if we meet a two or 3 o' an hour to get something done in that day send a note out or what kick kick started if there's a process we're going to move it does give them an hour before close the business to do something on Wednesday the only reason I would say you know what are you talking about 2 o' two or 3 o'cl on Wednesdays I I like it 3:00 or 2:00 2:00 2:00 on Wednesday all right you got that one y thank you okay the Town to fall town meeting on the next fall town meeting the moderator is unavailable on the 21st and would like to move it to uh Saturday so dick couldn't be there that's what he said were you a moderator at some point moderator and the um yeah the next Monday I'm actually landing at Bradley at 4 o' on that Monday all right start the to meeting at 3: whatever you want to do pending delays cuz well his his suggestion was you could he could get someone else to do it on the 21st yeah it's easy the process if the moderator unavailable is the town meeting elects a moderator obviously you you try to set that up and Orchestra ahead of time but yeah it's not that it's not that odd a process and this is the year we're talk are we talking doing consent or not for the fall not for the fall not for the fall we're talking about doing maybe electronic and then the thing the thing is um so this is going to be a pretty busy town meeting because we're pretty active town meeting because we're going to have the I guess Senior Center and we're going to have a couple of uh issues regarding changing pointed to elected people could need to vote on that so that might be a little bit of a controversy I don't know what else we're going to have on therey battery storage be good to have the team on you know so the budget part of it is a little bit complicated because of we haven't decided what we're doing with the million and a half for the Water Project right that's why I'm I'm a little concerned about the 28th because usually the tax rate stuff is the runup I'm kind of busy right after the last minute and I'm going to be out of time for 5 days before the meeting so just from a selfish point of view that that makes me nervous well it sounds like we may not have Clarity even for the 21st even as we're still getting our number numbers together but we can't even push it another week as we run into the next week next week is the election right well the presidential election we can't might not have the numbers for what well I wonder if you're you know we talk about getting all the things together even for the 21st is there a problem doing that not if we have all the warrant article dollar amounts early enough okay when we get them early enough but still have the meeting on the 20th we you know we plan in every having everything ready before you leave so you're not like coming back to what am I doing so advis if you did the 28th then you look at that again advisory meeting a couple weeks before that right okay so so we when I say that our well I think you know as Don said you know with so much going on we need the A Team you know doing all the work here so no Tuesday out of the question for a town meeting not for a fall town meeting no 22nd you think the 27 22nd or 29 I mean busy away 21st or that week Don he was coming back the 21st I thought and then he's coming back the 28th so at 4:00 yeah I leave on the 23rd come back on the 28th right at 4:00 and um Rick comes back I think he's going to be on vacation that's I saw him yesterday so he's in Rick on vacation the 22nd won't be home until the 22nd correct I don't get home till the 22nd do you think if you prepped everything up ahead of time you'd be okay with the 28th do my best if Southwest doesn't fail me fortunately they're are Windows 3.1 so I don't care about CL true so Tuesdays out the question like the 29th just to give him some leeway ni fin me too actually I will tell you the 29th works better because the 14-day thing because the 14th is a legal holiday I believe so you advisor could have their meeting on the 15th and make the two we thing that's not the worst idea I've ever heard yeah I mean I'd rather be no questions whether you make it or not well I have the day to prep yeah yeah all right I make a motion to schedule the fall town meeting for October 29th can we still close on the 30th of September close the warrant yeah yeah we can always reopen as we need well i' not to do like we did last time and keep reopening the war so if we vote say we're closing it on the 30th and that's a the hard deadline yeah I just don't think we should do that yet we haven't even sent out a note to departments with this date and we can do it on Thursday and have Halloween costs right again and a motion for the 29th second all in favor well that only took a minute we made a decision okay we got to sign the warrant for the primary recation last motion don't have you a recall reconsideration please thank you do we have to sign all of these yes please what are all these lines oh that's look at there's more people there's more than three sign them more than once if you on any other business uh any other business to come before the board we're just going to sign the warrant for the election so on the the primary motion to Second all in favor push that button just going to