[Music] one day this meeting is called to order in accordance to the open public meeting act notice of this meeting was provided to the home News Tribune The Star Ledger and the Highland Park planet on April 18th 2024 and was posted on Bor Hall website at www.hp bor.com and on the bulletin board of B Hall 221 South P Avenue Highland cart New Jersey and has remained continuously posted as required by law by exit are to my left and right of council [Music] chambers while you're standing filth Us in the pledge of IED to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all that was I couldn't resist it call Mayor Foster here councilwoman councilman George here councilman H here council president H here councilwoman kiman here councilman I'm sorry pelik here attorney Shaw here administrator here Christopher here um this is a work session so no formal action will be taken on this section discussion will be on track SE Redevelopment and the public meeting which will be held on Wednesday June 5th at 700 p.m. at the high school and also on 810 nor 2nd avenu Redevelopment plan upper Raritan Redevelopment plan presentation presentations on both upper Raritan Road diet proposed Alternatives so we'll start off with track seat all right I think the hot seat belongs to ter all right on this one I will take it so everybody should have on their calendar uh Wednesday June 5th 7 to 9:00 pm at the high school cafeteria we're going to have our open community meeting to discuss the plans for trackx SE um we are using just to kind of give you an overview uh kind of the vision for it will be a um a kind of orientation presentation mayor Foster will kick things off council member hail will go after kind of give a little more orientation to how we got to this point then I'll go in with some overview about process in terms of that we've taken to get to this point um and then we'll hand it over to uh garden homes but tman and probably his colleague avalino Martinez his architect to give an overview of the concept design for the site um well then at that point break for uh and and we'll have set up in the room three information stations so the idea is to have an opportunity for people to get up close to the different aspects of the project ask their questions give us feedback um some of it will be you know sticky dots on a board in terms of what kind of images do you like don't like other things will be so the three work stations that we've envisioned one will be a concept plan station where garden homes will be there to kind of go again in more detail over the plans you can get up close and get a battle handle on how the site Works um uh they'll have some renderings available and copies for people to look at um we'll have I should have back up we would like to have some members of council at each station so we'll talk about assignments at another time but certainly our members of the economic development committee had offered to uh fill in on each of these stations mostly to give feedback I not feedback give dialogue back and forth listen to what people have to say here are the questions if you know the answer great if not write it down and we'll get them an answer to that question um so back to where I was concept plan station uh garden homes in Blackbird that's the architect likely be kind of the primaries on that deck uh we're GNA have a community spaces station because there's a lot of community space as you're aware uh both in the project but also adjacent to our plans on South Third so we're going to have some material to speak to that and try to answer as much and taking some feedback on that uh and then a station on parking because we know that's kind of an issue that folks are going to have questions about we can present material from our uh parking plan and have some numbers ready and kind of walk through some of our phasing ideas about during construction because we will be building on our community parking lot to make this project happen so we with some IDE about how we're going to manage that so those are the three main areas that we were hoping folks would break out into to talk talk to we might also have the PowerPoint just kind of slowly rotating on the front screen uh throughout the whole evening so that if you came in late and wanted to see what was presented you know you'll have a chance to just kind of sit there and go through those slides as well um so we used that format successfully at a couple meetings uh and that's so we're just trying to reproduce that success with this project I think you know the big thing will be getting the word out and so we're working really hard to make sure it's on everybody's radar to come out uh because we know it's a busy time we were just discussing all the events on everybody's calendar so Wednesday June 5th we wanted to get this in before people are running off for summer vacation and um other you know fun things so I don't know any other mayor Matt um that's pretty much what we discussed right yeah Mt the only thing I would uh just point out um is Carrie s out that that 232 ritin burned building is about to be demolished in the next couple days that does not mean the track SE starts two days later so the fact that we're demolishing that doesn't necessarily mean that you know it just needs to be demolished it's a burn building can you speak to why it's being demolished it's a burn it's the burn building right remember it's the one that had the fire and so um so I just it just kind of worked out was going to be the same week so don't read into it so nothing to to read into you know um um uh about that and then I guess the other thing I would just point out is that that in addition to to this right there are still meetings that are going to happen at the council there's still meetings are going to happen the planning board there's still meetings that you know so so there's a number of different um uh places where people will be able to talk and speak and and say what they want so this is I don't want people to think that this is like the one bite at the Apple that they get this is just you know where we introduce this we have conversations and then you know as we go through the formal process um you know there'll be there'll be a lot more opportunity for people to to chime in yeah to build on that I would just I'll be presenting on this so I might as well mention it here too is that there will be we know we need to amend the plan just by virtue of the fact that there are additional Lots being considered for development that weren't in our original plan uh and there likely going to be some other tweaks we need to make uh based on the concept they present as well as the feedback we get back you know as we mul through it so that alone will require two meetings of council a planning board visit let alone once they have a project there's going to be a redeveloper agreement before they can go to the planning board again there'll be a public meeting where we can discuss those terms and so forth and then certainly they have a concept plan and they have a finally they have a site plan that they're ready to go before the planning board with there'll be all that uh as well so we're at the finally we have something to show questioned we'll have that session available shortly go back to that just STI a pen any anything else that we need to share ter uh that's all I had prepared to mention tonight council members do you have questions and your economic development team is ready to answer questions and and stickies and everything everything else we'll have we'll have all the supplies there don't worry about supplies we went through and did everything at Economic Development so I think the team's ready yeah good and it's really facilitation role for all members of the council I think you know just help solicit the input it's our big moment we've been promising this one for a long time all right real quick um so we're not gonna because most of it is like I guess oneon-one conversations so we're not going to record we're going to record the presentation presentation and we'll make that available but it's impossible to yeah it's going to be rolling so it's kind of a set presentation and then more of an open housee format that's why we really want people to come out in person and see the project and you know have discussion around it make notes and give us feedback and everything else like that oh yeah okay all right so we're good on that one next next one we're going to um go to uh 810 North Second Avenue Redevelopment plan presentation and I'm going to share my screen so that people at home and sorry council members some you'll have to tilt um uh so that Chris can kind of toggle through his slid you just go so I have a short presentation on the two R plans that we have at draft format obviously for both plans still the opportunity to introduce the plan it'll be reviewed by the planning board for consistency review and then back to council for adoption so this sort of a preview uh at high level what the the plans are that you have before you are these on the website as well I was going to make not yet because they're still on the kind of Pip with draft stage but can certainly as part of introduction we we need available okay so I'll start with the 810 North 2 Avenue um this is a very very small site out in the northwest corner of the U municipality uh it is an area that's sort of bounded by single family residential neighborhood fronting on Cleveland Avenue with the crossings behind it it's actually one of the last in this particular area like the last remaining like industrial use on the south side of Cleveland Avenue it's like what do we do with it the uh property uh contains a one and two story build plus one building containing a one story portion fronting right on the street a two story portion behind it uh it's been used it's built in 1940 used as a laboratory commercial use V for I believe last year or so uh so the property I think there's some some interest as to what can we do with this uh and this is actually a neat exercise on my part uh to prepare a sort of slim version of a read plan that way we can be nimble sort of react to and be proactive as well to really provide something that could be beneficial for really really small sites for small developers not just the big ones so this is a a great opportunity to really test that process uh in a cohesive and efficient manner in terms of division the idea is that again obviously this is pretty simple just a very very very SCI specific implementation plan the key here is a potential adapted reuse of the Legacy that light industrial use and one of the last uses of and light industrial non-residential nature in part of of the neighborhood uh the key here one thing want to promote is sustainability and reuse I really kind of create the missing middle housing type that's sort of missing in this neighborhood after all you do have single family homes that uh for a long time have been built on Cleveland Avenue newer homes also built on the other side I believe it's Wayside as well as Town Homes but not small apartments or what have you so this is sort of a a missing niche of housing type small small units likely mostly one bedrooms there's hardly not going to be any twos I I don't think because of the size of the building so it's really kind of poning in on a missing type of housing in this particular neighborhood which is good uh obviously I think it goes on said this plans is good because you can't do it under current zoning because you have the opportunity to do something neat but you can't do it with zoning so uh this R plan sort of sort of fixes that uh with the pyic plan and master plan I did talk about sort of improving the uh mix of uses in the neighborhood and including accommodate a wider range of uses and so on and so forth since it's a very small site really straightforward considering taking the light industrial which been vacant for about a year or so here what we're contemplating is a multif family Apartments within the existing structure there may be an addition but only at the second level on the front part um there's really not much more room to do that because what we're trying to do is sort of right siiz parment requirements one per unit is about what we're looking at that means within that masting you can only fit only a handful of units that's fine I think that's what we're looking for here the bulk regulations really are setting the tone of maintain the existing building but there are certain features of the site as you saw in photos in the plan um that there's sort of add-on building right on top of your property line trying to get rid of that there's parking leading into the neighbor's property single family house trying to pull that back a little bit so sort of right sizing and fixing things have been uh conditions have been exist for a long time improving buffer improving froner including getting rid of shrubs it's kind of blocking the sidewalk and so on and so forth if for some reason a Project's not feasible we did put into the plan sort of a backup option and that is you can do a house with an Adu we did talk about that during the master plan process 2019 this might be a neat test case in case the apartments don't work out so single family and Adu perhaps or two family so we're trying to just be mindful and be proactive just in case the what is Adu oh sorry accessory dwelling unit so basically a small dwelling unit small tiny house on the property which could be attached detached or what have you in some sort of form also on the property with a single familyand home before you flip and I apologize if you didn't you said it but I think you may have skipped over we are requiring an affordable yes unit that's why I was me to explain what but not not that's not the accessory dwelling and that if if the Adaptive use would take place there would be at least probably based on the number of Apartments it one unit of affordable in there so roughly it's five units between four and six units so no matter what we're going to require one affordable one AFF yeah we don't have Port partial affordables yeah also one bike per unit so all those things that s advocate for it's D so before I move on to Upper any questions on this one straightforward is reuse of the existent building missing everybody know where their property is yeah I just MO but yeah I think Jason you know where the property is I know [Music] exited it last year yeah okay so that generally makes I mean that's pretty consistent with what we had contemplated so you know Chris mentioned the streamlined plan that he came up with for this I think it'll Serv us well if we need that kind of precision in the future all right next one is upper Ron plan development sure uper Ron's actually been a discussion point for quite some time we renew a contract to keep this going um so for this particular project this is in the Northeast part of town on upper R Route 27 the Redevelopment area that was selected this under rehab designation um so the area that we selected is actually bounded by uh three streets really the frontages of the Mar Avenue between Maryland South Le to South 10 um it's JY yeah so the St of course we don't have so the corner of South T and is the LOL property um I'm not sure there's a use in there there's someone renting but I did confirm with the landlord or the property owner's representation that it's an interim use they fully intend to for this yeah so I think that particular property S I think um was impetus of looking at this plan so but really think about holistically we look at the entire Block Base because um the other property on South 11th Maryland fronting on the 27 upper part on the plan north um that was also considered for some development so we we took the opportunity let's put them all into a plan uh recognizing that there's several other properties really not interested at this time or really process yet per se with development so trying to be a build flexibility with zoning in case something doesn't happen um but yes the sort of impedance of this project was what do we do with L all uh also on that property is apparently what looks like a house but has five units in it uh it's quite undersized not really uh accessible um I think the approach here is that that would be demolished but the units might be folded into a new project so in terms of existing conditions so some photos are in the plan it's really illustrating the existing conditions out you got the L all top left you got the uh I think the former uh or might be I'm sorry still active veary Place apartment building at the corner the building actually nicely maintained as well as a brick office building and some vacant uh land there's some topography issues meaning it slopes up quite a bit about eight or 10t on by Maryland so that might be some challenges with the construction Christ the top go back one second the top left corner with the brick building in the back to the right of blue that's also yeah that particular that's that house the house that's uh has the five units in it that's on the property it's not an additional property has you're on the same property oh well okay oh yeah it's a guess a it's a non-conforming condition it's just a weird looking thing you think it's a separate thing when you go up there yeah I know it's on the same L it's on the same lot yeah speak of which the um the apartment building next to it is on the lot it's on JY why am I saying JY L Lu yeah that's on the same block as lub opposite side on South 11 that apartment building that also is in nonconforming use right we're dealing a lot of non-conforming conditions here especially old all parking in front not good for its streetcape yeah to be clear this is the commercial Zone the underlying zoning in this area is commercial which wouldn't allow for an apartment building wouldn't allow for retail with apartments on top by by right so again doing stuff that we can't currently do Under the existing Z sorry I just took your thunder that's fine uh Vision here really leads into that is that we're trying to think about what go beyond the c commercial zoning and that's allowed for a mix AB uses uh with housing and commercial space as of right now you can't have housing even though if you look go drive down bar Avenue there's lots of houses but they're all non-conforming um and recognizing really responding to the market the ground floor of a new building anywhere in this area doesn't all have to be commercial because that's going to probably take away from the core downtown you don't want to stretch the commercial activity too far so we have kind of sort of right size and response to the market that's why we want to allow for uh Flex space including housing on the ground floor and if there is a residential on the ground floor just make sure it's interesting and activated like a gym or a workspace something that feels like it's active not just an empty space um so emphasis here is uh in addition to sustainability por but here it's primarily on rockability and bicycle parking which will lead into the road diet discuss later uh again the current zoning does not permit for mix of uses trying to fix that and create that missing middle housing that's missing that's why it's called missing uh in terms of a master plan achieves many many many strategies of the up rarin in the land plan adopted in 2019 primarily to really transform upper Arin from a single story strip which we do have here at one of the sites that's the all property into multi family uses um so this is a graphic from the read sorry the master plan adoped 20 can you make it a little bit bigger sure oh no you wish you don't have that here come on he was trying to make it bigger with his hand yeah I don't T touchcreen we're not that fancy there we go so this is a strategy page sorry this is the existing conditions map in the master plan on the website uh so this is one of the areas of focus we have five Focus areas in the master plan upper R OB is one of them Cleveland Avenue was another uh so upper AR we looked at several sites we notice a pattern of the glow scale parking in front uh conditions lack of Street trees screen furnit really lack of connectivity uh what was neat here is five years ago we were looking at the site this is label D we saw the the Jewelers are behind us on the left we're looking across the street at lall so we're like yeah this is a great site to do develop here wouldn't it be and that's will be a Segway into my next slide um so this is the existing conditions this is the photo is 5 years old so I'll give you that um but it's nothing has changed don't wor I was G to say CH that nothing has changed poor little shower and Street does not look safe I just got a email that they're all worn out already so we need to get they were they weren't safe in the first place right so this is a bad picture because this makes it look great um so the condition here this is a little sketch we some members of the uh master plan sub committee and members of the public took part in sketching what it could be um what's remarkable is that the concept plan do have a developer uh that's interested in doing something at lall and they have a concept plan actually quite similar to this I'm not saying they took our plan and did this they did the right thing and putting a building up front Clos the curb cuts and parking behind the building sort of really stitching Upp Rarity back together and they had come to screening rehab Redevelopment screening and got that feedback so I think that's why their project but their Project's not allowed yeah project not allowed stay tuned sweet um and of course we have the uh bike lane kind of interesting so this was just a visualization from the land use element land and the road TI is in hand drawn um I think Javier actually purchased Fe it was a fun exercise we did with the public U So the plan requirements uh we are allowing for multi Family Apartments a range of commercial space but they're hopefully trying to work with the developer to an agreement is you don't have to have the entire first floor commercial they given them flexibility uh ideally we have a small commercial Corner kind of framed corner of uh South 10th and Rarity uh the bulk reg regulations are right siiz in terms of setbacks meaning uh instead of a lot requiring a deep setback we're also having what's called build to lines it's a form based code type of uh strategy where you make sure the building's not set too far back because we're trying to get rid of the parking lot in the front there's plenty of space in the back of these Lots um and we do did put in the plan where it's appropriate we have fourth story popups to low people get onto the roof maybe have deck trying to get flexibility and interest which add value to the project but not a full forth story I we don't think four stories is appropriate here yet we're not sure this is sort of for test case in a way uh with Upp raran in terms of Standards instead of one per space per unit since we're not quite close to a downtown area in terms of a train station we're thinking one and a half spaces per unit I still one bike per unit uh parking and rear improved the buffering um one of the things we talked about in the master plan for this area it really applies to all commercial areas is improve the transition between the commercial property the front on the main streets to the residential neighbors behind it that goes beyond just a five foot buffer all screening increasing 5et to 10 feet um more Landscaping one not trying to serve really better manage the transition from a three-story mix to a house next sounds scary but you can manage it with a appropriate standards which we use all the time in our field uh all over in in many communities public benefits uh this will actually lead into the next discussion for Terry's GNA have is want to eliminate the curb Cuts obviously with the lugol property it's just two driveways the idea is close them all you get access on a side streets onland Park benefits having a very well uh laid out grid and that allows gives us opportunities to have parking in the back um really use the opportunity to improve the streetcape the street trees benches um PL in strips and uh really supplement support the intended vision of the upper R and the pro diet so just will be a neat test case for what the vision laid out in the master plan 2019 um I'm looking forward to working with the developer on one of the sites yes just want to clarify one point if there's a property in our plan that isn't interested in it right now what how do we handle that So the plan my last slide I'm sorry um so first I start with this then I answer your question so the idea here in the plan is that as we talked about build two lines minimum minimal setbacks to get the buildings closer to the street what you see on in yellow are the permitted building Footprints trying to force the building closer to the street with a modest setback of five or 10 feet uh and then parking is forcing it back uh in terms of other properties they can utilize the existing zoning as it is today so so for example uh this particular property here is a single family home while it is in a read about plan they do not have to participate in fact I'm sorry can you guys Zoom that in sure uh this it's a little great ass it actually faces 11 it faces okay oh it's so that's lot seven it's kind of the backyard to the the property that faces for yeah this is the Standalone lot single family proper uh property owner so they don't have to participate in fact we wrote in the plan that whatever happens here if something were to Happ and have to have a 20 foot setep back from that particular proper so we're keeping in mind people who do not want to participate into this plan uh and this plan I don't think will require future amendments we try build flexibility so that way if something does happen after Lu all they come right to the revelop entity or or the re director and just enter into an agreement and because there'll be already yeah so it's already there in case it's there so we started build building the framework for future development you notice certain parts of this area mainly the lb all property is sort of ready for prime time soon uh than obviously other properties and just to be clear if they do want to join later on they have capacity to do that as well right yes of course or if somebody decides to negotiate they want to do a bigger project and use you know and they can negotiate a sale of that property you never know where people are um so it's it adds options as I look at it yeah I I see this plan as serving two purposes one is to facilitate something that we want working with a conditional R development now but also late a framework for others to participate in the future without having to keep amending amending amending the people that already live in the apartments get first dibs at the new apartments so that's the discussion we have to have in a Redevelopment agreement um that's a sort of work uh relocation plan uh that's something that something we had concern with early in the process uh assuming they're all occupied so that's a to be determined on Maryland 11 they decorate for every holiday like they're invested in the community agree so yeah that's something we we talked about and need some advice from Joe Bowman's team of how we would build that kind of protection in to the extent that we can we will might have trouble with affordable if there's an affordable component with having resid preference is that is that like res like an intend preference yeah um there's some cool no I'm I know some cool efforts that have done that but but we'll have to you know I'm sure there's a it's not a huge project so I don't know if there's a spot for everybody yeah I don't know about all the residents but I know there is one that like I said they decorate all the time like you can tell they're invested in yeah in the community in their home right that's their property tenants in there so what are the rights of the tenants if something was to develop although s I'm sorry one in the corner we're just talking about the proper all property my my memory is that when they went to the screening committee they only had two of the five rented that was years ago that's a while who knows it is now but I I remember them saying at the screening committee that they were struggling to find people to to rent which was one of the reasons they wanted to move ahead so I like toally could not be the case now but it was they went to the screen yeah that was over five years ago yes and in terms of affordability obviously the five units there are not designated affordable but they're probably inherently affordable despite depending on what the actual rents are this project specifically with regards to LOL will have obviously an affordable housing requirement so the the question I think we're trying to resolve is can they get first gies certainly look into that for sure oh I have a just quick question about bike um bike standards um just because of where it is I mean is that something that we want to think about is kind of advocating for higher bike standards just because it's in town and we want to encourage cycling you know if we're going to have um more than one per unit you mean well how does that work so it be bik parking per unit right it so be so how we structure the plan is and it's become boiler plate so if you read it it looks nothing special because I hopefully you've gotten used to it um but it is one per unit is actually pretty aggressive some communities go you're crazy um so do one per unit and it could be achieved in a number of ways one is a bike hook in the room a bike bike room that's shared with the residents um a bike rack outside I think the plan I don't me I don't have it memorized but the plan should call for at least one outdoor bike rack to L guesss um the idea is have some sort of weather protected element inside which could be a room or on hooks in and if we're negotiating an agreement and we think it's important that it all be internal or whatever that's something we could just stipulate as part of our agreement is that while the plan says this we want you to go you know that's the minimum want an extra yeah yeah I believe when we looked at the concept plans with a site uh it did include a bike room yeah perhaps it need to be a little bit bigger and more glass but but they're definitely important I mean to the extent it's it's locked and protected I think it's just encouraging is better use of it than yeah you know putting it outside I had I had a ATB stolen from a bike lock up room an apartment we still got to lock it up in the lock up room yeah wi Cutters did a great job just cut [Music] around there's different ways you can achieve it and then you can also some of the units may be suited if they have a long entry you could kind of put a hook in it you know there's there's more than one way to and not everybody wants it in their living room versus some people think it's gold so Phil had a question yeah just briefly I just following up on one comment that you made which I think it's important with regard to the commercialist limiting it um especially in this location which is out of time you made an interesting comment that I noted which was putting in the commercial which could potentially um compete with the downtown right um it it seems to me that when we're beginning and I think it's a great start to start redeveloping a bararan to help with join the town um it it is to say we really don't need the commercial in that area we need more Apartments we need more people more residents who are going to facilitate the downtown because we still have some problems downtown on occasion you know we have some people here here here today and gone tomorrow we have landlords who are charging very high rents um and so may be a consideration to say um we may be better off with more more units more affordable in that but sorry okay no go ahead uh one of the things that we talked about throughout this is to try and be as flexible as possible on the bottom floor so rather than have commercial all the way across the bottom there could be residential across the bottom could be you know there could be a psychologist office across the bottom or you know or something along those lines so I think the way that the plan is is written is to try and say some commercial but not exclusively commercial and a lot of different sort of flexible potential uses okay I mean as as long as it's as long as we're not locked into a you know a plan that mandates that no no it's not Mand I I do not either want to see a plan that mandates all commercial on the bottom but we have to think when we're looking at this project it can't be all affordable because it seem like we're Silo in a certain set of people into this area all all of Highland Park needs to have Fair access to not only housing but Equal Housing stock so I I'm 100% for affordable units but I just don't want to see where it's going to be all affordable unit in one section that the quality of Housing and the standards of housing should be the same across the board so as we look at track C that we're going to look at real soon I want to see the same standard of uh living and the same standard of unit be considered in here and ritan as we move to see track SE develop we are going to see more people coming into town and more business businesses being utilized so we it may be an opportunity for some mixed use in here as well I I agree we can't have affordable housing we can't do that no s kind of related to what you just said um what I thought I guess the way I was going to approach it is if they come to us and they have a commercial tenant that they want to build for that'd be one thing versus speculating building like a restaurant envelope with no restaurant with no nothing and that's something we can take into consideration as we negotiate the plan and the agreement is if if they've come to us with we've got somebody who wants to open up this here that might change our feeling about commercial on the first floor versus you know it's a speculation and we're just sitting there with an empty retail spot you know the thing which is not good for anybody it's been a challenge for many mixed use buildings throughout the country is it's required ground floor commercial it's empty while the apartments filed up just kind of tie up that loose end just one second before you do it Jason oh I just wanted to chime in to say like I fully support the flexibility of commercial property just one thing I guess to keep in mind is that a lot of the properties in the downtown kind of like more this push out kind of mold where it's like an old single family home with like a little box out front so having the flexibility for this commercial space like might attract someone who may not come because we don't have quite the right size property this gives them some flexible option but you know I totally hear you though I agree like we may not get there so they may not show up with with a tenant that's a commercial tenant that's interested in that and I'm perfectly open to all evental as well so sorry I think we did like the idea at least the planning nerds on the group of having the corner as you're heading toward having the closest corner as you're heading out of town toward Edison having a commercial use there if it's feasible if they can because we thought that would be a good would look nice it would be a good corner for a business like it would set them up well um so we think there's we just don't think it needs to be the entire front coming in and out yeah so I think there's a potential and they seem to think there was some potential a nice Starbucks yeah well see I'm just kidding but something nice direct are we U makeing she she on the corner you know instead of but I digress something we but they don't have the parking yeah so parking is going to constrain you know but we did figure out that and the building it was feasible to have enough parking to support it okay um Chris you were about to say something I was just going to mention that I think everything we discussed more or less is handled in the rment plan in the current draft a variety of commercial uses which actually copied open from it downtown for expanding it types uses a little bit more flexible is permitted but not required and residential is permitted on the ground floor so I think anything that we talk about trying to respond to the market flexibility it's already in the plan and I think it's our approach for anything really going forward trying to really be responsible with when we do these the total number of units again is what are we thinking total number of units for uh for Lu all I think it was around 15 between 15 and 20 15 different scale you know we're trying something a little different andree in concept of the affordable housing requirements there will be threes so we obviously have to still get through our negotiation you said one oh no that was a North Second just because of the the nature of the building you can't carve it up too many different ways yeah but this this one bedroom types it's cool it's I I think I mean I think this is the the the approach that we need to be taking not a monolithic single effort but you know creative and flexible and smaller scale I think it's really spot so and it wouldn't be nice to see some reinvestment in that absolutely absolutely hopefully this is a startup man every time I drive by B I'm like such a nice one I've been in town 30 years and since I've been in town before I came to town that has been vacant been a black it wasn't a Lube at all no it just been just I just assume I just missed it no I didn't know I didn't miss anything and it's just like been there like it I don't know if it was a million different changer oil stations they just changed the name they people just like open they do but it's just been crappy for 30 30 plus years yeah it's been on its way down for a long time is the property clean because of the nature of the business I don't know that it was ever a um repair other than the LI all I don't know about the you know due diligence that the um property owner has done did we talk about that with them but they'd certainly be required to clean I thought there was one oil change Pit which is sometimes might have been but my recollection for the would have been oil change I think one of the days it's not related to the Luol no so it didn't come up on our search but um certainly we would make sure that to I believe they purchased this property not long ago and so they should have their due diligence done already one first things we recommend it's like before we talk yes how bad is it howad is it yeah sorry I forgot the one on second has that also been tested because they've done actually a phase one and a phase okay I rate the question came up in a council meeting and I did raise it with them and they they invested in the extra they have to do the secondary I think they decided for their own personal benefit were they discuss we turn we shut that down okay they discussed it said so you never know what they'll say down the line but for now they don't believe and this is someone locally that reached out to us too oh okay because I can imagine as what's there now and what's going to be on there like you know okay hopefully they got a good business plan yeah for me any other questions okay before we um move to public discussion we're going to move to the road di proposal so I have a update and then I have a few slides I can share with you but to update uh you we had a meeting a couple of weeks ago myself the chief lieutenant sodin Bruce cotch our BR engineer uh with the kind of project team which includes dot staff members and their Consultant Group I think ganet laming is the name of their uh consultant to give us kind of an update where is this project and basically I want to start off by saying I know it feels like forever it is forever uh but we're really just at the kind of there's let's say three phases I have a slide I'll show you that shows you this three phases where at the end of the first phase so we're not even at the halfway point so keep that in mind with everything I'm about to say and show that there's still a lot of work to be done we're basically in concept plan phase and then there's engineering that actually happens so engineering engineering hasn't happened but what they have done and I'll show you some of the slides that they I'm G to flip through because there's a lot of backstory and I think this group at least is pretty familiar I did confirm I can make the slides available so I will do that as soon as I can find some time to update the website but um essentially they had the public information uh Center which is what do calls an online public meeting of sorts but it's their we're doing a public information sa Roots so at least they're consistent I think it has something to do with Federal money too but in any case the um uh presented a concept to our community they got some feedback from It app ention to like it you know it was all over the map but I would say the probably the overwhelming based on what they told me I didn't read every comment uh with a sense of frustration on how slowly everything's going and how long is this going to take so I just don't want to don't shoot the messenger here when you see the slide about where we are in the process but give me one second I want to pull up the slide so I'm going to walk you through what they showed us what the preferred alternative is which really hasn't changed from the concept plan that was presented um at the public information center uh no but he's welcome to you I told him it's related because yes like this G to be a part of your operar you know we kind of need to start you know if this is going to happen anticipating that in our our development plan so um so they they um let me just I can't talk and click on slides at the same time okay oh so that by Lan he showed wasn't reality kind no it's just a concept well I was thinking like oh no that was a vision of a you know that's what that's my vision that is my vision for it's not reality it's just a vision oh I remember what I was gonna say when I derailed myself uh but essentially there's not a a huge change in the concept because the concept isn't that hard it's elimination of a lane of traffic in either direction um starting at well initially the project area was eth to the Edison Border North eth Edison border however after going through this process they're recommending starting the process starting the project area at six because it doesn't make sense to have two blocks that are out which seems like an obvious thing and so that they address that right away but there'll be a slide when I get to it um but what they have done is done some number crunching on level of service times things like that and I left they feel confident that this project can work however they want the council to pass a resolution of support for the concept Plan before going into the next phase of engineering so that was the big ask at that meeting um and so I'm going to share with you now GNA kind of flip through um again they're not my slides so I'll do my best cover my butt cover my butt did you hear my covering my butt there okay uh I know know all right let's see here if I can find my screen there we go Al righty God yeah there we go that's and you guys got a copy of that in your uh so yes and like I said I confirm with do that there's no I mean as long as everybody knows this is just where we are right now moment in time so you can see this was our local officials briefing um so this is the stretch that is being looked at you can see the initial project location began at Mile poost 1758 otherwise known as North 8th uh up to the order there with Edison at Mile poost 1804 by the middle of the meeting they said there's their their recommendation is to start at 6 so that they can transition appropriately as appropriately as possible which I think makes a lot of sense so I'm just going to just reorient everybody that's kind of our project area uh it is within Highland Park burough everybody I just want to remind you of that fact no I'm just cooking it's about a half mile stretch uh it's an urban principal arterial and I'm sure that means something to dot uh and right now it is a four-lane undivided roadway with 11 foot lanes and no shoulders sidewalks in portions missing sidewalks driveways Etc and their number was 13,000 350 Vehicles a day although I've seen up to 15,000 so I'm not I can't swear to you when they took this data from the key needs that they were trying to address were the ones that the burrow brought to them we had some grave concerns after the loss of the young boy a number of years before and then actually more recently since this project started uh the two folks in the in the vehicle uh last year um but the issues that they were set forth to address were our concerns about improving Pedestrian by icle safety uh what I wasn't really aware of until they put it in this terms right now this roadway has a Safety Management score of nine out of 10 10 being the worst so just this road even according to dot metrics is not functioning well and it the 20 2015 bicycle segment ranking store is a 41 out of 375 which 375 is the best this is a 41 uh and that another priority is also improving motorist safety by reducing crashes as well so by do standards this roadway is trouble uh in addition to all the reasons we all live in breathe every day and we know how scary it is to try to make moves on that road so those are the KE issues that they were looking at purposes and goals similarly we had asked them to look at the road diet uh again these are kind of doish stuff but the purpose being increasing Safeway for all you safety for all users priority on pedestrians bicyclists and then RS and for but I think it all becomes safer with the road diet what is r right of way thank you uh so of course that's a DOT thing like they don't want to have to deal with RightWay issues which of which there are several there's um utility polls there's driveways in certain spots that they're going to have to and there's a summary slide later of some of those spots that they've identified but clearly and another thing that they're really looking at are the Ada upgrades I mean it's an atrocity to walk along that roadway and any stretches you're on a asphalt with painted sidewalk line you know it really doesn't clearly delineate pedestrians in any way we have schools we have the temple and the yiva down the street so there's a lot of walking uses uh in this area so it's really important so that's a priority and I I'll speak to that in a little bit um so this is just a depiction of existing conditions essentially showing sidewalk curb two lanes of traffic um again uh now they're kind of referring to its Sixth Avenue to you know now kind of that's essentially what we've got got to put my glasses back on so some of the safety issues that they've identified uh and this was I believe looks like they were focusing on 2017 again I'm not 100% sure it's not my slide uh but you know clearly they've identified 68 crashes during this period that they looked at two fatalities and with the AST that there were at least two more since they did this work which were the two we were just referring to a Bic list crash as well um again um ranking number 11 out of 200 on the project Safety Management scoring chart that they have that's what psms I had to Google that before the meeting and then again 41 out of 375 on this B segment list so we've got a dangerous stretch here uh by their own measurements and we have poor condition of sidewalks missing sidewalks you name it so those are our current conditions so the proposed uh preferred preliminary preferred alternative they refer to that as a PPA uh they use this lingo you'll get used to it because you'll see it in a lot of their materials is to reduce the travel Lanes from four to two with creating a buffered bike lane in either direction okay uh upgrades Ada improvements including high visibility crosswalks and sidewalk connectivity uh what high visibility crosswalk is like extra reflective as I understand it um which right now we have pretty pale and un highly visible I believe they will be coming through in the next couple weeks to to upgrade some of that in the interim as kind of you know recognizing it doesn't have to wait for this project to happen um uh traffic signal upgrades to mun mutcd Chris help me it's the full uniform Transportation instruction something it's their own standard but essentially getting it up to up to design standards uh getting so basically the traffic signal that exists uh I guess is it at 11 sorry to go kind of like where we have our our Crossing as well as uh there is a a blinky pedestrian flasher closer to Lexington I believe um so those will be upgraded to whatever Current stand are um signage and upgrades and uh all this will require resurfacing and and then obviously the concrete curbing and and sidewalk work as well sure are there opportunities to close drivers I would clearly be ready to Broach that topic um there are a couple that I'm aware of that they want to rout to side streets because they're right like in the middle of everything um so I don't know I know we succeeded on Woodbridge Avenue eliminating Andor just significantly narrowing aprons to be what's needed not just default what's there so I would certainly suggest we Advocate if there's an opportunity to do that um I don't know how proactive they are going to be at negotiating those things with the property owners that are impacted so that's a a good question I don't know exactly how that will play out but I do know they've identified I think it's in a coming up slide here they've got a cost benefit ratio of 6.78 which is good I found out that basically means the cost of this project kind of you know outweigh or are you know are less less than the benefits by that magnitude I guess did they list the benefits um if it's in a slide I'll know soon but but basically I think the benefit being implementation of the road diet that it basically benefits you to safety and all those other things and the costs I think is are what really are driving is this is not a highly expensive project because we're talking about essentially resurfacing and painting lanes and then I think the concrete and all that other stuff is probably going to be more Troublesome than the rest so from a DOT standard we're not doing a roundabout we're not doing a flyover we're not buying a bunch of properties to make this happen it's a pretty straightforward project there are nine direct utility poll impacts that I assume that means we have sidewalks running into utility plls we'll have to figure that out 14 temporary easements for driveway reconstruction not 100% what sure what that means but I think that's what you were getting at Chris that there is going to be some easements required with some of these properties either during construction or even permanently to make this project work um they don't anticipate any exacerbation or need to deal with storm water obviously if we think otherwise we can vote so this is just I'm not going to dwell on this slide it's hard to read anyway but this essentially shows the project starting with basically right at coming out of North 6 with a they have already identify to add a right turn only marking to North 6 which I don't even think is there now which is currently you know would just be something they would want to sell um I don't want to even speak to that because I'm not sure but again this is just I'm going through their slides of the project area which is basically what we started out with straight through to the end essentially pavement sidewalk improvements along the whole stretch can I ask a question yeah I drive around town all the time but I could hardly tell you the name of a lot of the roads yeah is Brook Hill the one where the ambulance placees I don't know the answer to that but the way say you know where glow is that's where that is so I don't know the answer I think that's further down that's the one I'm thinking so and I can back up just to give I'm sorry maybe I should have assumed so we got sixth seventh eth nth n9th 10th 11 Highland this is where 11th okay Highland Maryland marbor Washington Amherst Lexington Barnard this is like real trivia street names if you could do them in order I'd be really impressed Ral Columbus and then we pretty much end right before Brook Hill Tera uh and that's that Meandering border with Edison and red there that's following the M Brook is our dividing line over there I know the the streets by oh Matt lives there yeah exactly someone so I I keep saying that's got like that's a good like if someone wants to do a trivia question at penos one night for just like triangle on uh so so anyway that's the so the project extent we're just starting it closer to sixth and then they did present kind of a concept again I think all this would be subject to discussion of kind of how they would phase it which basically install on the one side then you know make the improvements do the other side and then Lo behold un unveil I don't I can't really speak competently to this slide I apologize I must Dr offing the presentation uh let's see if there's any other so the thing te everything up at one time so I think they're gonna phase it there's also a road Improvement project scheduled between New Brunswick and the touin so maybe the timing will work that they don't have to redo anything and we just fit into that Tim table that's a different division within dot um so they did look at a couple some data uh based they have a lot of modeling capacity between themselves and their ganet Fleming I guess I don't know who does what between the two um the consultant was presenting but they basically took Northbound and southbound and they took a look at travel times you know no bills versus build um and just as a general concept you kind of want to see travel time to go up because the whole point is we want to slow things down so if things take less time then that tells us we haven't really addressed the speeding issue uh so their projections I'll just walk you through how these slides work and basically they do a summary this in bold is a summary for those different segments okay those four segments there they're predicting an increase in travel time of from 93 to 105 from the fifth a to kind of the to the edge of the project area okay and that's in seconds seconds so it should now take you one hour and five minutes no uh no you're right absolutely that's making sure you crawl uh you're not you're gonna be jogging faster no um uh mid peak hour which I'm not 100% sure what mid peak is defined as we're looking at 92 to 105 and then PM Peak 90 to 111 that's going in the Northbound NB is Northbound southbound they're look that's going toward New Brunswick uh increase from 90 91 to 97 amm 93 to 104 mid 100 to 118 Peak again this is their work but this is a lot of what these guys do are pro projections uh so they but they were generally comfortable with this and they made the point if the speed goes down then you've got cars driving even faster which is not exactly the condition we're looking but remember we we only have two lanes one yeah but but even still that you know we want to see the other thing they looked at were I guess intersection uh results and delay is in seconds uh but what um Los is called level of service and they rate I guess all their roadways with a to d a is the best b c and they have their own definitions as what is at at what is acceptable level of service for a given Road given its context I can't speak to what I can just speak to the fact that right now based on their analysis they did not see a degradation of level of service between no build and build in any of their Peak mid analyses um huh seems like well that's because yeah so that is their project you know obviously if we want to understand that a little more I'm happy to bring some of those questions back but I think it's I guess I walked into this meeting just to back up thinking they're going to say this project the reason they've been going so slow is they don't believe this project will work and I had the opposite impression leaving was I think they want to do it they want to know the towns behind it because they know there'll be to say want the project and they want to know the the governing body is generally supportive of the direction recognizing the full engineering is not done uh they basically want us to give them a reso say go ahead and then they'll well I'll I'll get to you'll see the the timeline thing that they presented so again bees say bees I don't know exactly how to interpret all of this so again we'll have you'll have these slides and can study them and ask you know me more thoughtful questions when you have a chance to really digest it but from their perspective and I'm sure there are times where we would argue the level of service isn't great but what they're saying is the level of service isn't going to much that much worse according to their own criteria level of service meaning just ease of ease of mob yeah but they take a bunch of it's a term of I don't know if you have more familiarity with L been a it's been a while definitely an annoying thing most of the time of like what they consider but often it's thrown in your face as to why they can't do something because it's going to deg grade level of service to a point where they just don't think it's sustainable I think what we have to realize I was thinking about this when I was looking at this again we have a pinch no matter what because at some point you get to past six and it goes down to the condition so it's a matter of where you want to take your hit you know and so now we'll be you know the pinch is going to happen so I guess level of in my mind I'm thinking well maybe that's why because you're going to hit that pinch one way or the other as a matter where you hit it um is there a time I mean I drive there constantly but I can't remember there being is there a specific time where there's an extensive bottleneck going south my going south my only experience and this is highly anecdotal I would argue might be but it's not that far down ritin like into Edison would be in the mornings occasionally a garbage truck is in the is still doing their pickup and hasn't gotten off rare and causes a little bit of a backup so I would say that 7:30 to 8:30 time that's but that's based on my driving South is going towards Edison [Music] right also backup going the other direction the very very hard to get through near second ad first second we'll have public comment in just a moment I think she's she's on Council yeah okay who who had council member H um so uh uh you said there was a buffer Bike Line what is a buffer B let me go back to the slide that's a good point um that's a good one because I'm really happy about I'll show you on this is the final uh depiction but a buffered bike lane means there's actually a space it doesn't mean there's a physical buffer I don't think they proposed like concrete curb for example or uh Ballers I'm not a big fan of the baller just because I think they look terrible after like a week at least the ones I've seen but they basically it's a in this case a 4 foot buffer this white stripe area in the bottom right quadrant between that and then a six foot bike lane so very generous it's a very generous and that was here I'll show you on the bigger one oh no it's the same well that's the one I would like to see uh but that in our picture uh we had I think put some ballards there I think that's the kind of thing I think it has some challenges for maintenance and especially in the winter months so but that's the kind of thing where I don't think we have to be endorsing with Ballers without Ballers now I think what we're talking about are a buffered bike lane and how we buffer that maybe is something we can talk with them about but the four foot buffer you don't really need sanctions you don't because it's it's a and then the bike lane itself is pretty generous so you're talking a nice 10 foot with there basically almost the entire Lane was currently there one of the car Lanes basically yeah then my second question is you have two lanes in the middle right yeah are are is left turns prohibited no you're just just create a little back just go to no there's no Center L they I think they ruled that out early on and I don't that came up in our meeting but I'd have to get you more information rather that that so so I know we're early in this process I know that they did a whole bunch of modeling I don't I I literally have no idea how with two lanes there are going to be people turning left and off how do they turn left off where in between third and fourth except for between four and six they do it um but it's also it's it's I it feels like it's slower when you're getting there and you can you can that you're not going at the same level you find that this will be slower too um I just I I really struggle with the idea of whether I think the challenge with the center lane turn lane a those are sometimes called suicide strips in some town so just keep that in mind as a safety thing but also they are it will we wouldn't be able to have as big of a bike lane we have a certain width and I think that that was so right so I mean tradeoff is a center lane versus having a bike lane on one side versus bike lane on two I mean that's a possibility but then one just real quick and I don't I know we're we're early in this process as you're coming out onto Raritan you're crossing a bike lane on either end if under this current plan you're going You're Crossing into traffic on a bike lane is there Provisions for signage and lights and and so that well not yet but that is they don't have the designs for that but there are standards in fact we played around with them on our own little mini bike lane on Walter Avenue where you what do you call that Chris where you doeant there's there's marking so that the driver knows you're not just in a free zone you're in a a bike lane uh and they would be there can be painted there can be signs um again this concept doesn't come with pretty pictures I I've showed you the extent of the design so the center line I just want to make sure I capture everything Center Center center aisle turn uh they had some pretty strong rationale so I'll have to get back to you for some more more of a technical answer to your question tarah had a question pH Phil just briefly I had the same concern that Matt had but the level of service they're talking about you see them in the traffics traffic studies in all the planning board applications and it goes a through e it's um the degree of of the weight time and the turn on at a traffic intersection I have the same concerns that Matt has yeah now you can traffic can continue to flow whether it's speeding or not speeding uh by by going around the cars making left the in downtown we have the intersection striped so that there's no parking for approximately two car lengths at every intersection so you can go around the vehicles that are turning left even the ones that are turning left between four and six so that that's why the traffic flows there what's going to happen is all of the installations that we put on the side of the road to make it safer people are going to use for passing because they're going that's what we need to look at and see how that's going to be managed well that did come up in the meeting you know what would prevent AV verion sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth but I thought I heard you say people would go around using our bike L correct and they did say that will likely happen but generally cyclists have to keep alert it's not like we have a curb and that will discourage it but it will happen Sarah my question is is if we vote just to go forward is that saying that we're agreeing to everything that we're seeing now or is that saying we're just agreeing for them to start the engineering thing and we can say no if we're not happy with everything later I believe this is the start for them to start because I don't want to steal St Terry stunder but I think this is a start she's going to explain more later on maybe I could finish the slide I want to get to the timeline a little bit because I think you'll see where we are Stephanie I think once she finishes then everybody will understand I just I don't even remember all the slides hold they also have this Mainline Q length uh which was uh also in what I sent you which I is basically how many feet of backup would there be at these different times of day no build versus build the average versus the max and I think you know some of our I think my perception of this stretch of road is very different than some of yours it all depends on when you travel it um but but that they said the average they have average versus the maximum so clearly we've all experienced maybe a maximum day where we were like really backed up but that the typical condition that these you know in the average is less so you got to keep that in mind as you think about these Alternatives that yes there may be some those bad days where worst day ever and it was backed up all the way into Edison Could Happen happens now the garbage Tru breaks down in the middle of the road so just keep that in mind too as you think about that what happens if you know one second Matt Stephanie have a question Sor sck stick a pin p are I have um no you do oh okay I thought I was finishing I wasn't no I'm gonna let Terry finish before I get back to you so you can unpin your pin pin I did I did I did this is literally the end I think you just got to go around the taable okay uh so this last or two more slides and then I promise leave it alone but again this is their visualization of where we are as this Arrow tail end of concept development phase so their concept development their concept is elimination of two lanes of traffic in either direction I will find out if that precludes the center aisle or not or whatever turning aisle my sense was they had ruled it out I'll find out but then we give them their reso right here let's say they've got to get into preliminary engineering which means all this stuff has to happen final design which all that has to happen and then they bid it out and do all this stuff and then a construction project so what that translates into let me just skip that is this basically graduation from concept development phase fall of this year basically we do our reso they find wrap things up where we are and then they start work on developing a scope of work to pick a consultant to do all the engineering that to make that all figure get figured out spring of 25 this is what they told me again messenger messenger preliminary engineering starts summer of 2025 finals design starts fall of 2026 construction award fall of 27 so that's really you're looking at 2028 let's be real so this is lightning speed according to them they give a year for each bullet that's basically plus they don't mention the fact that actual construction is the six bullet um so again from by I think they basically if I'm putting words in their mouth and I am feel they have proof of concept for the road diet they feel comfortable with what the data is telling them about t traffic queuing level of service all the things I showed you and they're asking for an endorsement of council to move forward uh to to that concept development phase I mean uh I mean the next sorry preliminary engineering so that's that's it what and I can leave the slides up so I can flip around if somebody has a question Stephanie um that what I was gonna say maybe we and everybody as home is gonna kill me for saying this but the we may need to set the lights further from like south I mean like first all the way up maybe the timing on them to maybe slow the traffic from like at the upper por so you know I don't know how long what is it like 15 seconds or believe there was something in here that speaks to signalization and yeah engineering that if double it I think you I think that is part of what they will have to do no I think that's part of the conversation but that's a good point I think they will have to look at at the whole stretch especially if they're going meeting as you're going north especially because you're going to be letting it through and so uh that's a good point and then um like Edison right how kind like they just received notice or they don't have to be on Bo we had we had had a coners Terry and I had met with Edison have a conversation about this project that's right yeah we met with the mayor and we talked about you know let's work together to get this that we're in sync when you're piece so we're not disjointed so we can get it going at the same time and he' agree but I guess we need to Circle back with him and the impression I got from that in some old memory was they were almost like how did you get them to do that you know what I mean like you know saying there's a potential that there might have a it would be wonderful to have the lanes continue into Edison we know a lot of people do commute that way um but they don't have to and a huge part of why we're saying like we both have the same problem let's face the problem together we talked about Duos at that meeting as well because I kind of come okay that was it okay that was a good Jason yeah so I had a couple of thoughts and this is in my neighborhood so it's kind of like dear to me um first off I'm curious I mean I gota assume that the um studies that they did um to determine like the amount of time um that traffic would flow and the the the minuscule increase that they would see sort of factored in or also like the kind of like backups would factor in the loss of the separate lanes that people that are making left turns but it would be good if we could confirm that that I will I believe so but it's a good point we should know that you I mean I can't imagine on doing that but like yeah right loss of turn or of of bypass lane this will be a part of our discussion on Thursday just a few disposable bicyclist that's all we take don't worry about U also I was curious was there any disc there nothing protecting them now just so curious was there any discussion um or mention of uh changing the speed limit on that STP I don't recall I I we did lower it recently we did yeah but when I 40 because I I wanted to see it lower even more but another did not come up at this meeting so I don't know it's G to be slower question it's gon to be slower but if we don't do my my response ter would be if we don't have the road diet or something in place you could make it 20 miles an hour it won't matter G to go I'm saying that in addition it might be a de facto speed limit if we do our job well and it slows if the road diet goes in place you only have two lanes now one in each Direction so you're gonna it's going to slow it down I know but I I don't know if they would anticipate going down the 30 I would think or 25 2 I I argue for 25 we don't have 25 even down I 25 on Thursday 25 25 is right is downtown yeah but nobody possible you know so I think at least they should be consistent but that's a good question I because I said to them that Hoboken which is so busy in Jersey City have 25 we want 25 yeah and they were save roads um next on the uh the bike buffers I'm curious so I understand right now it's just basically we're going to paint over it but I wonder if like maybe they'd be even willing to provide funding like if we could get some kind of Med in there instead to like provide added safety but then also like you could put um like some dirt in there and some plants not high plants so we don't block traffic but something and that could like help with storm water too where would you put the median in between uh where the buffer is so the buffer would be like a little strip it would be a dirt strip a little dirt strip grass it won't grow I mean it'll be a nightmare it'll be too skinny to put anything real in it you put ight curves but you're talking about or or just a concrete curve just something for like some added protection like really just like because again like we have businesses there we're talking about maybe having some more housing there we talked about the schools and the temples that are there no I think it's a fair point but I don't think that's what Dairy Deluxe yeah Dairy Deluxe like I mean like you know I take my kids there and there's plenty of other families there um and there's cars just whizzing by and it's just like it makes it a kind of a little bit of a tense scenario sure it is anything we could do to just make it feel safer and safer and more something more of a of a barrier as opposed to just a paint yeah and maybe that's something for just later down the road like we're not sure I have my picture that I did in California I'll bringing with me and so I can say this the kind of idea we're looking for right so protected bike lane as opposed because I took a lot of pictures of how people do it in in main travel area downtown LA it works in way so I still got even more and now I'm sure that would make their cost go up a little bit so we'll have to see what they do yeah maybe that could be like a later pH they're making a switch for a million years might as well no but if they don't do it now will they ever do it right yeah we can ask for the sky you know hope we get Lu we got to this face it took us three years to get to this space and then also just because it takes so long is there anything that we could do to ask for some like kind of interim relief even it's just like some liner painting we neglected to mention that uh yeah maybe for like I know once you get a little further out then it gets a little bit more just like regular highway but like closer to the heart of town well kind of like how we have on Sixth and Seventh right now where it's there's just the lines that kind of limit it to one lane we could do that maybe 8th or 11th or a little bit past like sooner rather than you know 202 that was a part of the conversation remember yeah doesn't feel like that's how they roll but you don't know if you don't ask I mean that that might actually help the transition if people see get transition out before it's I I don't know maybe we just wouldn't have the bike laye yet right just have the it's to come just made the pinch up a little sooner to pinch closer to six and boy do we need to replace some of those curvs like I don't know if that's that is I'm just echoing that because like you know ter when you guys have a chance you should just like really go look at the slides that was sent out today and just like make a lot of notes especially if you can do it sooner the better because we have that meeting on Thursday and it's not our last bite at it but it's no but we're meeting with them as much as we can the table I don't know if this this level of detail will be answerable at that meeting we don't know who exactly is coming from dot because you know as a you know the project te it up you know what I mean they know what we're think it what's on but uh we can definitely raise those qu like especially if we're being asked to endorse you know know are how how much are we how much flexibility is it to address things like the center lane or your protected bike lanane or what Happ and then the only other comment I had was like I'm just curious in case they decided somewhere along the process they're doing the studying that the bicycle lane isn't exactly feasable are there other Alternatives that we could do to fill that space and block off traffic that would be considered I think they think it's feas they think it's okay like the bike Lanes fit but they work so I think it's matter how they do them as opposed to if they feasible I think we're out of feasibility mode and they're basically saying we like this option which is the easy option which is striping and we're saying we have some questions but I don't think they're suggesting I kind of thought they were going to come in with like I don't know I don't know they really didn't put that on the table that's great yeah because what I can tell from their like Transportation like analysis of this is that basically it's a no- Breer because the the safety risks are just like so high and and the costs are low in terms of implementing but then also in terms of the traffic problems that we arise from that is like almost nominal that it's just some people who are using it as a throughway may find other ways to come get through cut through you may go one if if it gets too annoying and you're just trying to get yeah because it's just an easy shortcut to go town they might skip to Route One Last point because because have to turn up those like the weird angle at which the north side streets hit 27 over there um now that there's going to be sort of this additional uh like buffer zone between the bike lane and the buffer um is there any considerations maybe like kind of like tweaking like the angling of that so that it we didn't talk about it we can ask I mean I'm sure that's something engineering would look at if there's way to optimize it the challenge is if it property ownership and all those other things depending on how much right away how much is in the right away versus not but keep in mind now you have a between the bike lane and everything else as a motor is if you're careful and do what you're supposed to do you can ease out and look before you right now you're like next thing you know there's a car coming at you you know so there's still going to be safety considerations for cyclist so we'll have to make sure that the signage is Cle I definitely support moving this you know past the conceptual phase okay Matt no Matt had Matt had stick up in no Matt H and Matt hell both had their hands up before me I can if I mean I'll go if you want go the M the side thank you gentl um my only comment is I drive 27 into raway almost Del and I don't see it being any different than matachin and it really doesn't take me that much longer to get through matachin and there's a lot of traffic and there's more traffic in mouin than in Highland Park and I'm at rush hour going to raway and then rush hour coming back to Highland Park so and if it saves more lives I think it's only makes sense is my comment no I agree I think that whole stretch of right from from like the parkway all the way to River Road the the right the hotpots are planfield Avenue the bottom neach in person road yeah it's not it's not that bad no it's annoying L get off of Route One to go through there because it's it takes me less time right and today I didn't and I wound up being late I I want to share the concern though with the um with with with Center turn access and I would just maybe maybe we should you know I think living so Livingston Avenue it was a county project but Livingston Avenue Brunswick from North Brunswick to to right downtown um it's not it it ain't pretty but I think they did a really good good job um there's pretty extensive Ballard system and crosswalks and there's turn Lanes at signal lanes and so they went from four LS to two um the whole stretch and it seems to and there's synagogues and schools it's been a while since I was there the one with that are now yes multi neighborhoods you know neighborhood not as I think it might be a rder a wider roadway but I think they had more room to play with on I think you're right but I think a lot of the issues that we're discussing maybe maybe there's some some things that we can say I mean some of them maybe if we have more of a protected line line I don't know the way at least address the safety concerns for the cyclist it won't mean people aren't going to get frustrated waiting um but but maybe they have data that speaks to the Turning patterns how much time people spend going left and right off we can look into that one too I make a left touching every day and just wa I don't have difficult Y at all because I don't like turning at the light so I turn at one of the side streets and I never wait long in a way you're competing with less traffic there two lanes going either way you have to watch out for the other lane so you can go you can and a lot of times when I'm waiting to turn somebody coming the other way will say go and let me go yeah so and if if cars aren't going as fast hopefully there's Opportunities For Less yeah I just have one one more one thing okay mat Jason all a good question no um uh and then just um uh I think what I know we're I know we're ahead of ourselves and and and and you pointed this out after the question me but as far as landscaping and other treatments that kind of slow down traffic and make pedestrians feel safer more buffered you need to think about what's downtown obviously there's a parking Lane and there's benches and there's you know garbage you know garbage receptacles and things that kind of landscaping trees you know so I know we're not but we're not there yet no we're not but those are very not yet and we'll have to one of the thoughts I had and thinking of Stack was when we get to the point when they're looking at the sidewalks and having to dig everything up again unfortunately there's relatively limited Verge space you know on you know but there may be some opportunities to put some trees or Planters or you know just anything that we can do to kind of make it feel safer for pedestrians and so they feel protected because right now they they have some pretty nasty conflicts with cars going across the sidewalk exposed yeah okay thank you and it would give a a better feel to the area um I just want to make sure I was understanding can you go to one of the slides with the tra the delay counts going well I may not be able to answer it hold on which way sorry travel time going Main Line Q length so 27th 11th and marold right now under the no build the max is 1067 it goes to 294 that's on its worst day I know 15 to 195 8 to 177 right I mean those do we care about Q length about what Q length Q length yeah I'm just I'm asking Q length I think is a car 12 feet let how many cars are backed up to waight to no this is the length that's not the number of cars that's the length that's in feet that's not Cars yeah take that so divide it by 12 or something oh I think it was another one that said travel time there was a travel time delay yes yes yes that one so so under this it's going to go down by a second which one I can't tell 14.5 at 27 and six the no build delay is 14.5 and it's going to go down to 13.5 because the pinch no longer exist anymore the pinch is gone pinch is gone I guess the one that I saw was the one with the with the right I would I would look at the length as as in feet because I didn't make that clear I admit and if you think of it maybe the easy way to go is divided by 10 for math reasons now because cars are actually a little bigger than that um so you're talking about a 10 car or 20 car think of it that way you know as opposed to um number of cars right so so if it's a 20 car car length right how does that not make it slower lot but they factored that in I don't want to represent their numbers for them but they that's just like he said the worst case scenario 27 of6 average number of feet is 17 versus versus 174 so that means there's some day where it's a nightmare right but then the typical condition is probably what they're trying to say the average is it doesn't queue up that much you know that's what they're trying to say that's what goes to so but they are acknowledging that there are those days where things go wrong and there can be a bad backup a car gets broken down you never know so um I guess what I guess my point is that it struck me that the that that that was a lot that felt to me like a lot even though it was in car link that go from one car to 20 car backup seems like a lot and so so if that we could unpack that a little bit and try and understand I guess I wish I could have this for lower rare downtown just to give you some frame of reference but I'm sure that's like asking a lot but you know just to give some frame of reference like oh that's not that much you know that's how it always is and we're just kind of extending it down a little further right um I mean I think we have a tension between Cars Moving faster and freely and slowing them down for safety reasons so and that's and that's we want to slow it down because that has been the historical problem where people get killed or hurt in that area is to slow the traffic down and you know we are that area is ranked out of nine out of 10 we're at nine so it's a big problem we need to slow cars down so I I I think all I was trying to point out is that my original question about entry and exit onto 27 right with a 20 or 30 car back on to 20 or 22nd I think that's going to be a lot longer coming in onto the to to 22 you mean if you're on a side street you're on a tr get and you're trying to get on to 27 if you're on a if you're trying to get on if there's a 30 car backup it's going to be a lot longer for you to get on than if there's a twocc car back so your impact on the neighborhood impact on the neighborhoods coming out right I think that's a that's those seem to me to be fairly significant impact for people coming out to 27 and people do that they have to that's the only way out for most of them because they're not going to go all the way down to do close or anything like that so that that I think that's an impact that we should I mean it kind of depends on which way you're going and which way because sometimes I think it's gonna do like ter they'll stop and let you out and also I know for me like I live on a road where I don't have a light at the end of my road so I go over to 11th and come out there where there's a light so I can safely cross over Wood Bridge out I mean it doesn't take that it's a matter of a couple of blocks to get to a road with a light to come out one question I had which I thought someone would have raised oh I'm sorry I'll save it one more I forgot is there a cost to us like police time anything is that going to be in the res we did not discuss that any call to the burrow I think for them to for us to give them the go ahead yeah like what would be the cost the bur for the goahead for them to start the work there's no C's no attorney would like to answer the question so what ends up happening generally when there are projects with the do there is an agreement and under the statute sometimes it's % or if they decide on a different agreement because they you have to pay for of Duty CS yeah that's what I hope like Le so when is they're gonna have a projective cost and then they'll give you labor cost for with that at the time they can use they can use state troopers too they can they can so 5050 at the contract in 2027 right right oh so not even now in the r and it's regular by Statute so could even be you know it can be adjusted between the parts as well we can ask the question what's the standard but I don't think they're charging us for the improvements no but like in general like but nothing to the project okay that's good but so but we can find out what those but I think what the percentages would be of that cost later on down may be some cost but you could probably use a capital ordinance to and there been an agreement executed that time so you can see it too more to more to follow up Jason oh yeah I was as someone who has to like navigate that I'm actually like like speaking as a constituent in that respect to ma Point um I would gladly trade like if I had if it kind of limit although I will say it's kind of tricky to kind of get on that road and I feel like some people sort of avoid making turns onto that road now because it is kind of tricky and not like maybe the safest turn in the world um and I know that there's plenty of neighbors uh in that exact neighborhood um that definitely are you know looking to see this happen sooner rather than later I'm sure there may be some that are opposed but I definitely I could at least Bou like speaking for myself and knowing that there are at least some other residents in town that are like as a tradeoff as a trade-off because like you know we don't just drive there we walk there too so you know bunch of you know bunch of the people that I know in my circle people with younger kids I think locals will find the alternative you know I think so but what maybe one possible solution is adding an additional light in an intersection they did not I think they were very specific about not adding that's one of the things that we had um as a matter of fact Senator dagman had suggested a light we because we discussed a light because we were saying do we need another light there and he had suggested that too but that's not what the do wants to see it would be another guarantee that this point and I do worry that people going to find way we could go back and and and discuss a possibility I don't think that but I think they're one of the again they're like well it's just pain off well I worry that people are going to find their way to the nearest signal intersection like like fifth more option there's no left turn lane you know there's no left turn signal already so so it does back up there let's put that like definitely on the table and that would be Eighth Avenue would be the logical because that's like half like so the first l so six eight and then 11 11 yes we can't we can't put a signal a traffic signal stop later certain hour make that turn getting to the school than getting out of the school know me a botle next say that but it's but but I I worry that have no signal access then people are going to find the closest signal where they're guaranteed to be able to make a safe left turn and that's why the light possibilities you know to look explore that yeah and sometimes if it is backed up I'll go over to um where's the one with Dairy Delight that's I'll go over there yeah and I'll turn out there because I can because there's a light there and there's a there so I have that opportunity yeah you g it huh I G it there's because I can see better so that is true all right um anything else on this subject matter and keep in mind that we're going to Tren on Thursday to have more conversations so this was really I got this all your comments are really helpful so I will type them up and could they give us a a particular room a conference room or anything it's in the Google Calendar okay all in there I don't have it off the top and if you can't find it just leave the mail Tex us all right so we're going to wrap up and then we're going to move to public discussion wait wait you gota come to the mic but I got turn okay but you still finishing up or we're ready public discussion I thought I are we are we no I think we're finished I think we're finished okay um we're going to move to public this no formal action will be taken um now it's time for public discussion session a total of 21 minutes is allot is alloted 3 minutes maximum per speaker coming from coming from member of the public attending in person will be heard first followed by those partic attending on Zoom if you're interested in speaking please raise your hand on a microphone and express darn ey hold on one second I Gotta Give and I'm going to ask you to tell us your name tell us your no come on please yes Nora creger 19 North 6th Avenue I'm going to start from where we end it correct and I'll go backwards be fast um I just want to point out that if any of you have been in New York City there are lots of avenues there that have bike lanes and barriers and the parking so the bike lane the barrier parking and there's a cut in the in the barrier for turns and I didn't hear that in the presentation at all so that they wouldn't kill the the bike riders also bike riders have to follow the rules too and a lot of times they just don't and uh that's a problem um upper RAR development that's remarkable if you can get that done I also think that you should have commercial up there because that will bring people up there otherwise nobody's going to be up there they'll go home and that'll be it um but we do have an enormous number of empty storefronts and we have a lot of things that need to be fixed um I don't know where this A10 is if I was living down there and I was in a single family home I wouldn't be thrilled with the idea of an apartment there apartment building we already have the um the girls uh yiva down there and uh I don't know if that's up to you traxi I just had a recommendation when you tell the public that you're having this meeting because I know I've been at these meetings and I've seen people get really hysterical um must tell in with however you're going to advertise it again that you haven't voted on something but that this is this going to be a real plan for that property and how that is going to relate to the new uh which I don't qu quite understand how you're doing that the new uh Farmers Market which I think it's not a big enough space but that's my own opinion um but so that they don't go to this meeting I do remember the meeting that was in the community center people were just really upset they they didn't see the reason to be there or anything is so if there's a concept that the developers bringing think the developers should really present it and then get when we did we did the library Way Way Back The Architects had something called a charet where people just came uh people who worked there first and then people came and and did that um and gave their input on what the design was and they took notes um the um Sixth Avenue I live on Sixth Avenue I don't know understand how you're putting bike lane going into Raritan from there I think somebody's going to get killed oh my time is up okay thank you anyone any uh let's see anybody at home want to speak need to raise your hand just for the record we have uh two attendees on Zoom I don't see any hands up there okay that concludes our public discussion um just want to um answer some of the questions that was raised about uh the sharette we are doing the shet at the high school on June 5th that's what it's about that's why we previously in our conversation we talked about each council member being at a station where the displays are going to be and with sticky pads and you know notepads to to address questions as they come up but not only address questions that the public may have but to take comments as well so uh lesson learn from when we did it the last time at the community center we know we need a bigger space we know we need uh work stations um the the developer the potential developer is coming and they're going to do a presentation they'll be there to answer questions and we'll have real pictures so people can be clear there are plans what so the one thing I want to mention that you know just to be clear there's approval is still needed we talked about that already but there is a Redevelopment plan that envisions some of this that we all worked on and went through a public process so this isn't just out of the blue uh a plan that we're bringing to the community so and we're going to lead with that first ex we have a whole like 10 minutes thing where we're going to lead with friend um may I have a motion to clo to ajour the meeting second all in favor hi see you guys next council meeting I can't bre got