[Music] are you good yes all right this meeting is called to order and you will notice of this meeting was provided to the home News Tribune The Star Ledger and the Highland Park planet on January 23rd 24 in addition notice of this meeting via Zoom was emailed to the home News Tribune The Star Ledger and the Highland Park planet on January 23 2024 and was posted on the burrow website at www.hpborrow.com and on the bulletin board at Burrow Hall at 221 South fth Avenue Highland Park New Jersey and has remained continuously posted as required by law fire exits are to the left and right of Chambers and I remind everybody to please speak into the microphone and I should also say this is our uh meeting of the Highland Park planning board for those of you following along at home it is July 11 little after 7:30 and we're GNA get started with roll call please miss H here Mr brusher here Mr Chin Mr eisendorf here M haaz Mr H here Mr here Mr M here Mr carlman here Mr Stern card Mr Williams Mr Lynch here Mr Kenza here Mr Constantine Mr C here okay great thank you very much we're gonna put an addendum to the rollaz again miss [Music] hataz thank you thank you uh let's do our meeting minutes first up on the agenda since we only have two and ones correction from our previous meeting um so we'll start with the December 14 2023 minutes which we tried to review last time but we had some questions and uh needed to go back to the recording to get those answers properly inserted into the meeting minutes so I will ask if anyone has any uh changes or questions about the current December 14 20123 draft minutes that were sent around for review anybody all right seeing none I'll solicit a motion to approve the minutes so move second motion and second do roll call or Voice vote Voice votes all right for this all right then all in favor of approving the December 14 2023 minutes say I I I all all opposed all abstaining oh you know what I'm going to change my vote to abstaining because I forgot I was not at that meeting I just read the minutes um so with that the motion passes so we'll then go to our April 11th 2024 meeting minutes that were sent around for review any comments or changes by the board um I I think that I was here because uh I'm I'm a mark is absent but then I apparently voted yes in a row call I pr sure that I was here that's that's good correction there yeah all right so correcting that Matthew hail was present Not absent at the April 11 2024 meeting anyone else okay seeing none I'll solicit a motion to accept the meeting minutes subject to the modification of Matt having been present at the meeting anyone want to make that motion I move second all right all in favor all opposed all abstaining I'm I'm abstaining Stephen I okay very good motion passes and that'll take us to our next and realistically last item on the agenda we have sent to us an ordinance from Town Council ordinance number 24-28 7 an ordinance by the burrow Highland Park middle sex County New Jersey amending chapter 230 plan development concerning signage regulations and other designed standards we're being asked for consistency review meaning we as a board are to determine if this ordinance as amended is not inconsistent with our Town's master plan so with that I'll turn this over to Chris for a presentation on the ordinance changes so I don't have a presentation per se to be share on the screen so talking points um I'll try to be brief there a lot to go over what to change but things we want to say at the high level this is mainly housekeeping consolidation and streamlining and I'll get to a little bit more detail that so but a lot of the regulations in the current ordinance regarding signage Remains the Same just simply being moved around in some cases being revised as a part of a review of that sign just really make it easier to do business in on part uh after all one of the goalss is not just focus on Redevelopment but also how to deal with the little guy who owns a business and wants to do something in town that does not need to go through Redevelopment so the impedance of this project was through the uh Woodbridge Avenue District neighborhood preservation program as you recall 2021 Oly Park was selected to participate in the NPP uh program through a conted grant process so how part selected as part of that the B receives about $125,000 each year for five years for various uh planning and implementation uh projects related to making improvements to the Woodridge Avenue cor which is an area essentially defined as the entire length of Woodridge Avenue uh from South six to the Edison border both sides of the street of avue and South towards Aurora as well as Ben street so the neighborhood cluster FOC on the south side of Avenue and Al includes the businesses on um as part of the planning uh for how to spend money that we're receiving from the state uh we have to come up with a program each year you can update it each year as we pass through what we're doing to help U with the businesses and the residents in that district and that's come up a plan per se you Chang as far of year two of that plan which is last year 2023 we included a task or project a small project uh called revamp business sence and design standards um it's my understanding when Terry and Emma spoke to the state that can we do this that also benefits the entire town because the science regulations obviously don't apply to just what Avenue obviously what we're doing here will benefit what Avenue but the idea was might as well use this as an opportunity to take a look at the whole thing I think that's my recommendation to really do holistic approach is opportunity to do so might as well take chance to do uh really some improvements to signage ordinance and that's sort ideal idealistic version of trying to fix everything uh and that's sort of my I guess you could say my expertise is do like a zoning audit and I was really geared up to do this project and then I realized what I got myself into but fortunately I did I got a lot of help the main Park including Mara Debbie Jim John and Rebecca and of course I got feedback from Scott and Mike uh throughout the process like did going be enforcing this this this work and so it's uh about a yearlong process the bulk of the work was already completed 2023 um after a few months of stops and starts we did get a review by the attorney and by our officials and at this point ready intruction has didn't already been introduced and we're not here for consistency with um so I will say there's three main goals as part of this project and it's really to as I mentioned before consolidation streamline new two flexibility for business owners and three making strategic changes to certain design regulation as I mention before much of the existing Board needs to stay the same it's is really being moved and strategically being amended here and there and I I really can't go through every single Amendment tonight it'll take several Ms to go through that so I'm trying to give you high level overview of this so the current sign ordinates as of right now sign sorry the current land develop coordinates has sign regulations in three different sections probably so in the three sections are section 23015 performance standards which for some reason has Perman andit signage has nothing to do with standards uh section 230 -132 through 147 those are your Zone districts R RB and CBD C so on and so forth all the districts count every single district has a set of regulations for signment every single one and several of them are repetitious because the few of the multif family districts have the same regulations I won't call it a copy paste but they are essentially the same language lot repetition and sometimes difficult to find um 23018 going back to design standards and these include uh say preferred materials compatibility etc etc those are real design stand uh when I talk about section 115 and 158 there two different different in of ordinance they fall under design standards but 132 147 are zoning requirements so meaning that if you want to relief from the sign regulations you need a BK variant keep that in mind that's a key change U so again three sections of the Land Development coordinates all spread out as different sign of regulations they don't conflict with each other they're just in different areas uh makes makes it difficult for the lay person to find regulation so this obviously the first effort was to consolidate to one section uh and when we decided to move into section 130 that's 115 which is under design standards the reason we I made that recommendation and found a uple to the Town Council um this was because as I mentioned if a sence regulations under zoning you need a bulk variance you have to come to the board for site plan and SE VAR get when we move into design standards performance standards or what have you development standards you require what's called an exception it's a little bit different in variant there's still a burden except as opposed to Prov and positive and negative criteria there's a different some say easier path to get relief and it could be strictly a site plan however site plan in h still requires board applications but what I've did inou and other communities and actually proposing in Princeton is make the suggestion that perhaps whether there are situations where minor deviations you can create a process called a m a site plan exemption process where you don't need to go to the board administrative waiver in a way in an ordinance form it's legal um but it really provides flexibility something I brought to table and I think everyone bought in once they understood the process I a little bit detail how that works um but that was a strategic decision why to move Sage regulations from zoning to design standards in a way how I've been characterizing over the years is when you do that you're sort of decriminalizing when you need REM for really minded things because when you do bulk regulations you're thinking massing height stepb things that really affect people and neighbors design standards are like little minor TW sign pce and you need relief not B deal that to prove that a a burdensome or impractical it's a different standard of relief U as far as consolidation itself is organized as follows first all purpose and intens which is good to have purpose of his ordinance it's written there it's a new section the sections that follow are more administrative in nature for example uh the pering process including the cycline exemption process General Provisions including maintenance how to deal with nonconform signage design standards themselves how to calculate this area of a sign how to De with lighting of a sign proportion of a sign and then get into the bulk of the work of this ordinance which was the dimensional standards uh and instead of having dimensional standards for each district it's been reorganized so that it's based on the use because you could have a business in residential Zone you could have a residence in business Z so cleaned up so it's related to the use um and it starts with residential development stand so take a townhouse and multi family building uh then in section I in the ordinance propos coordinates is the bulk of your sign ordinates which is the CBD central district and the CD commercial District that's where 80% of the regulations live and being solidated um I won't go into too much detail but if you've seen our sign coordinance you'll see that there's primary secondary tertiary signs it gives you n years it's it's very difficult to en course and interpret to explain to people over the phone and we did with that so I keep it simple if you're a business downtown on the ground floor you have a freestanding sign they need setb that's not going to happen in most cases a wall M sign you could have a blade sign you can have a awning sign you a window sign a Sandwich Board sign and you on a corner lot or you face a parking lot uh or your a barber shop or a restaurant you got additional sign in certain situations we're trying to clean it up so it's much much more easier easier to read and interpret and forc by uh sta late person business owner property owner me H Park to really understand there's I believe there in the exting coordinance there a couple matrices like Matrix saying yes no yes no I still can't figure it out what it means so those are being deleted and it's being replaced with effectively a spreadsheet explaining what the regulations are for mainly the downtown businesses so it's easier to read a free standing sign the area is x the height is y all in one chart so in a perfect world the entire sign coordinates simplified into one sheet of paper and that was the goal to create that Matrix for again main for the downtown area CBD and the SE zones so that's a to me a big accom um there's really no easy way to go over changes U specifically with the dimensional standards for theing wall on sign so um I I will say we spent a great deal of time trying to simplify and make it easier and have a rhythm of how the language Works part of area height withd letter height uh illumination of each sign type so it's very specific but written in a way and organized in ways it's easier for the uh for interpreted officer as well as a late person to understand um and I think that achieves most of what we're trying to uh you know try to achieve M programs make it easier to do business P Supply Supply the sence regulations as far as the S plan exension process I'll be brief on that one so when you have a sign proposal that seeks minor relief let's say you have a for script that sign the regulation have we have in place proposed uh offer the suggestion that if you have a minor deviation say you're 25% over on the area 25% over on the height you can request a site plan exemption that's a process where you basically submit a permit same information need for a regular zoning permit but it's shared with different parties it's going be shared with the chair person the planning board you'll be a member of this committee sort to review this min so the chairperson of the planning board a member of Main Street H Park the plan of myself and um to read it those at least those three members have a role in reviewing the application and we offer to the Z official I think you should approved of this so there's a it creates a process where you reive a minor deviation without having to go for a site plan that doesn't mean everything can just be done through Zing office and S control and using this minor deviation so the ordinance intended to provide some flexibility that's not possible today and that's pretty much it I consolidation is moving things around into the design stand get out zoning removing all the stuff that we don't need anymore and uh also modernizing certain standards certain terminology we can use it's not perfect I won't say this there wasn't that much time to do this again this is intended to benefit the district so this Collective effort was an opportunity to look the whole thing and reorganize the entire that's all for the moment any questions have questions I'm going to uh exercise my new found powers and Privileges and just before we move on regarding specifically the site plan exemption section sure the way it reads it says that if any sign requires a minor deviation from this section such sign may be exempt etc etc limited to any one or a combination of the following so it's not really limited it's just one or a combination of any of the following right it's not you can just pick one and you're limited to it you can pick any combinations there it allows someone who if they have a goodlooking sign proposal but needs deviation two or more it still is eligible for a site extion that doesn't mean we are obligated to ver on reviewing it to approve it we can weigh how it would um appear on building in relation to the design STS already place so that's part of the flexibility not just to one thing would be two or three or four and just before we move on to open questions um as relates to our master plan uh if you could give one or two sentences on your views on how this is or is not consistent or inconsistent with our master plan perfect uh so to say on that I said one two sentences master plan does not spend a great deal on science as after all master PL is a blue blueprint uh but uh with regards to Economic Development this effort is part of trying to streamline and make it easier to business to and it's certainly not inconsistent okay great thank you cleer did you want to two questions okay um with regard to Temporary signage does there there's not currently anything in here regarding this and I don't know that there needs to be but often we have uh different things advertised in town that are temporary signs going up all over the place right now uh the high school is advertising the Mean Girls play um this doesn't affect the ability of different organizations to be able to put temporary signs throughout town for events that they're having uh so I guess there a few parts to this so if the high school or the burs doing temporary signage just like not regulated by this if private parties want to do temporary signage as long as they follow these regulations which at this point uh every single property has allowed to have U personal expression Sciences so could include real estate signs um political signs and so forth uh the reason why you get into say political religious philanthropy or real estate science because that's content regulation as part of this effort working with the town U uh the burough of attorney with this ordinance like well since we're touching this we kind of have to clean it up because there was quite a bit of content regulation in existing ordinance so we try to eliminate that that's why you don't see the words real sayate ony special events um so there are Provisions in the or that do allow for temp signage uh in several different ways uh but there's restriction on number and size it doesn't matter what the content is it's content neutal now great was consistent with the Supreme Court uh ruling 2016 versus gber um I think to that point they are committed in Windows and areas of certain sizes but it still can't be in up right Point okay which is a rule I believe in place now in almost all communities have restrictions plac signs right way unless of course is a street sign or official sign and the second question that I have is regarded the prohibited signs um P2 which prohibits signs that are interactive or display animation scrolling flashing or uh intermit text Graphics or lights uh what was the reasoning behind including that here so P2 you'll notice that the portions of the existing language already exists in the Orin as part of making the amendments to make this more modern U the that this is part of achieving one intent and purposes of that is to regulate the display of science which includes Public Safety flashing signs to be distracting and most communities all communities have sign regulation prohibiting those typ signs flashing more animated um pictures so it was already the ordinance it just sort of Rec or redid some of the language but meets the it still has the intent of regulating that type of action um I was just going to go back a little bit um when we first started the the MPP um process we put a a stakeholder group together collegia was on it for a bit and um we we went to the group and we talked to them about here are some of the things that we could do here's some and we gave a laundry list we had the people from MPP come we had people from the county come saying here's a variety of things one of those is facade grants sign grants and all that and the group said I don't want sign grants I want to figure out how to do signs right they said there was at least two people who said um I I would love to have a new sign I would want but every time I go in I can't even figure out how to start the process right and so part of the initiative of this was driven by MPP folks who were saying you know I just don't get it I and and so I give I don't I don't want to do this anymore because I it was it was too complicated for me um so I think that's important is that there was a very clear sense from businesses that what we had was um was not working for them um and they uh some of the MPP folks but then also the Main Street Highland Park folks really did as Chris said dig into this um and try and and use their experience um uh on on in Main Street to sort of um help Chris come up with uh the processes of this and so the Main Street H Park and and some of the folks on mppp um I think were a big part of sort of pushing this and and making this happen but then also giving sort of practical um uh uh ways of making it making it work um I know we can get into details and go down that but I just thought it was important to put that out there that um that this really came from sort of this sense from the Woodbridge folks um that they were not part of hia Park that they felt like they were separate um which part of MPP is to try and change this and so um you know that's I thought that was an important context to put into it so that's all I want to say je thanks um this this is pretty good good work um my prior life I had to sign Zoning for uh I had to sign zoning format for signs in Hillsboro and I had to deal with something like this this is whoever the Z official is I I don't envy that person um I did that job um but so physically to the the ordinance coule question so in terms of the the exemption um which you I think uncons that sense uh something about relative to the standard of 2 threshold about 25% just listed a fair amount in the ordinance um can you take me through like an example what like what that might look like in the real world because then if I look to wall mounted signs um one of the sections says that um you know in terms of the you know related to the the facade but um no wall mou sign shall be greater than 48 sare feet in area so 25% would be as much as 60 square feet uh a sign could be as large as 60 square feet without coming to to the board um do we have signs that are in town are 60 square feet what does 60 square feet look like you know I would just you know I would really want to walk through an example of what that would look like the other thing would be on the height um you know presumably a sign won't protrude above a power wall or above the but theoretically you could get an application where the sign height is moved and is at flush width or even higher than the SE the roof line of the building I think that would detract from good Urban Design so I just want talk me through some of the like how those things would be adjudicated like because you can create a whole bunch of confusion as to that even that piece you know you can down that so maybe take me through a couple examples I think generally speaking as as a prior zoning official for you don't advertise hey we got this exemption process just cheat the code a little bit but when someone asks to do something and has a certain size requirements and it complies the code that's great but they're off a little bit because of certain features of the building that's the opportunity to talk about well if you want to do that you could let me walk you through the process so it's more of a a process Improvement than it is to Simply allow someone to go from 48 to 60 feet that's not being 10 they could be could be allowed there's still a standard that need to have you still have to review and approve it that doesn't guarantee it approval um as far as give me an example of 60 square feet I really can't other than perhaps super freshh but if you think about it um that is relative to Tire faade um when we modified Will Made suggested amendments to the wall man ordinance uh sorry the or regulating wall manic signs for business on the ground floor in CPD SE Zone they are restricted to about 24 Square F feet but if you have a long or large building you can go larger up to 48 ft so I just want to get clear no not everybody gets 48t 24 is the starting point in certain situations that the building is larger it get up to 4 SCP um as far as the 25% relative to say creeping over the top with a wall so I believe if I'm not mistaken mistaken the cite plan extension process allows for deviations related [Music] to one additional sign in addition to what's already permitted any sign with an area not greater than 25% of the area any sign with a height not greater than a Max height any sign with the width not greater than 25% of the width so those are talking about if something six squ if something is 6 ft wide and proposing s and a half that can go up that's the max you can go up to and still seek a s planine extension anything higher than that c plan approval as traditional this does not talk about where it's related in terms of the location so if you want to creep above the top of the wall that doesn't fall under the s that require plan and hopefully will be denied by the plan thank you anyone else I have question well U Paul I heard you first so real quick um so I guess this under P2 the um electronic signs um I guess we don't allow them but there was an issue a few years ago that business owner said well they're allowed on the turnpike but we can't have them in town that kind of thing and I I don't remember the outcome other than if it were like the turnp sign where every minute it changes yeah that maybe that was going to be possible so that's a digital message center right or electronic message center EMC uh that doesn't constitute interactive or flashing the image changes after so many seconds there was discussion should we has how many seconds it change that's not being uh I believe in under illumination standards SE C moment sorry illumination signs energy rather the teral elimination electronic message center EMC digital video display to think of mon or TV um or similar signs placed inside the window shall we so that type of sign is fine but still cannot be intera with flash very good and just real quick maybe Matt knows too um does Main Street Highland Park still administer the grant program so the Main Street administers the grant program on Main Street but not on NV it's a separate uh and so Main Street does not do that grant program for the Woodbridge Avenue District right um and I think if I remember correctly also there was um the the design standards for Main Street exceeded were more restrictive than our own standards is that still the case um I Heard letters had to be smaller than this and certain blade signs were not allowed and that kind so I I have heard that as well I don't know that I have experience in in how that has come out in practice but I've heard that complaint as well um my sense is that these standards are ones that that we're hoping are going to be townwide we're hoping they're going to be both NPP and down in in in Main Street that's the intent so that would be Conformity between the Main Street design standards um and the mppp design standards these are all for the entire town so Main Street with um and because they worked so they worked on this this is sort of their new set of design standards as well so we think that they're going to conform since they were fundamental in building this they will conform thanks Stephen so um few questions um our master plan expresses an intent broadly to land use section master plan to divide the town into one or two family residential multif family residential commercial and institutional churches and um so this this this this this ordinance has separate standards for each of those kinds of uses right cor does that for institutional standards I could sign churches like yeah I believe I had a section called specific signs for specific uses that's in section M uh number one is any use other than single family two family in basically house districts two any use other than a single family two family in industrial district number three churchy synagogues and other s places of worship in any District that's okay so in that respect this this conforms and implements the master plan our master plan has a land use idea of the town and this has separate standards adapted to each for those uses correct to the uses okay um uh now um you talked about signs oral expression signs within the right of way as being prohibited are telephone calls within the right of way um to be clear I say any sign is prohibited in the right assist in exempt signs such as official signs regulatory signs and so on because we have lots of signs on telephone calls are are are those prohibited are you referring to Banner signs no we my lost cat my garage sale um The Mean Girls which is not a School production has signs on telephone calls delate as they possibly could be I hate to say all those signs are not okay um I will tell you that there is a history of discriminatory application of that standard um in towns along near Lakewood to preclude erors so one needs to be consistent in the administration I won't name the town that we documented that suddenly things on Telephone polls became prohibited in a way that invited invited the just justice department to Sue that so um if they are prohibited and that's fine with me um if this is a place where we need to be consistent because inconsistency I guarantee you lead to problems down the road yeah all alab is that if there's an attempt to put a sign telepone Po and that telephone poll is in right away yes it should not be there however it doesn't mean it can't be on Privateer right I'm just saying if I walk around the town there are things stapled up on Telephone points on every corner I can tell you from my experience almost a decade in touch that was a B of M and every extremely difficult to enforce um I'll just have um I was involved in the case where the inconsistent ver led to um big prods um the the standard the standard for exemptions what is is the standard for exemptions the standard for deviations in Municipal land law or is it something else when the land use law talks about impractical or exact undue hardship because of peculiar conditions pertaining to the landing question that's when an exception is required from my plan in front of the plan board right so what is what is the standard for exemptions in essence is the same type of standard for when review for plan board consist compatibility relative to design stands that follow so it's not the same level standard no no when the planning board reviews the site plan it lays it down on top of the C it doesn't have discretion um but when there's an exception requested then there's discussion negotiation but I want to know what the standard you know I'm troubled that this seems standard look and I listen to you and the standard sounds like an aesthetic s does it look good and that is a particularly troubling kind of standard because it is subjective and I'm concerned about standardless view where our real our real intention is that it should be this kind of subjective standard that depends upon the subjective predisposition of The Zing official um so I would like to see uh a sharper standard um that doesn't does create problems in terms of people saying oh the guy didn't like my stuff so he found a subjective reason to to to turn it down um that's that just seems to me problematic and the history of the land use laws to try and get away from that stuff right um to that point I respect your opinion on that it's about it uh whether it's a conforming sign a sign requesting site plan exension or a sign requesting a deviation from the planning board through exception they have to follow the standards and the way that proposal against the standards that are inut in place for example compatibility exist building material materiality and so forth so all those things are we no matter what S type is um and with respect to the reviewer that's why for example this is not just subject to official interpretation like I don't like it I agree do not want to do that that's patently illegal so that's why there's other parties involved for example the chairperson of the planning board Main Street H Park which has their own views of espe when it relates to grant funding as well in the plan so we view it together and it's a essentially a compromise similar to how the planning board makes a determination whether well let me ask you about that because actually that's a troubling provision for me I read this as saying that they are advisory correct and therefore we don't we're not Outsourcing decision making so to some non-governmental non-governmental official right okay so they they provide advice advice but UL is only only board officials call yes you made reference to other standards where bringly to where those other standards are uh it's the same standards that exist in the current ordinates just move to section d page that follows these are the same standard that exist today in section 110 sorry 2308 just relocation okay so that's a little death that is a little death um okay my only my last question is have to do with Redevelopment process I take it that development plans have ordinances superseded this it can yesel plans could have standards that supersede the standard that intens place but there are certain standards that does not talk about the presumption is that the underlying standards that are reference but typically our Redevelopment plans have their own design standard Cor engag in spot um okay that's all those are my questions to be clear we do not engag no we we do engage but we call it Redevelopment and because we call it Redevelopment we say it's okay that's the important part but it is spons we do not engage in spons I appreciate the feedback um anyone Jeff clarifying and I sorry just thought it um in terms of window signs and Window Coverings um there are there are some superseding regulations right I mean on on cannabis I mean looks like all the windows are covered that is not system sign ORD but it's a state it's state law right so like if someone as that just want to clarify that like those you know like not withstanding other Provisions in the law like we can regulate those things and the state has a regulation we honor the state's regulation right yes uh first of all that's a fantastic question that's one of the last things you discussed with the F attorney to ensure that we didn't have a conflict where for example the state says no we have to have the window covered but our ordinance says it must be at least 60% open whatever it says um so let me just pull up that section I believe I may missed it when you I believe it's at the end okay bear with me sront designs the new VI it's uh you two yep two all right so I remember Rec call we debated how the finessa language 1 through five this is why we added number six these standard shall apply unless superseded by other local state or federal law okay go perfect that a very specific conversation took us a couple hours one sentence okay I actually wanted to bring up back to uh prohibited signs um one was just an observation that in the very first section you had to add in our prohibited sign ordinance that you can't include open flames in your sign I didn't need to know that was an issue for people you have to say it I'm I'm grateful for the safety concerns involved in not permitting open fire as part of somebody sign um but I was actually quite concerned about subsection five which appears to be almost wholly new and it a signs that are a fixed painted on a fixed to painted on or placed in or upon any parked vehicle parked Trail or other parked device capable of being towed as so as to advertise a business to passing vehicles or pedestrians is not permitted now I understand in theory the initial concept being one of those mobile advertising billboard trucks but the first thing that came to mind when I read this were the vans that I see parks around town that belong to businesses like the bakery they have their van out in front of their store almost all day and it has their signs on it and in theory that fits Square in with this and I just don't want to have any cross problems with Van advertising I can also think of several Lawn Care businesses around town who they past all over their trucks that sit somewhere for several hours and in theory you can get a concerned citizen calling saying they're violating our sign ordinances by parking the me all day long I'm a little bit concerned about how that gets implemented with the way it's written so I agree um our main focus on this ordinance was to how we make certain revisions to CBD and C zones mov around consolidation streamlining extion process blah blah blah uh once we got to these sections exempt and prohibited sections it was more or less let's try to clean up what we have in place probably not be perfect to your point I can understand the concern the intent of that ordinance is let's say vehicle's park for weeks or days days or weeks at a time simply just be a sign advertising business that's the intent um if the question is whether we should have a time limit that's a question honestly that is first of all it's a good question and I could defer to the Bur attorne see if it's necessary to make that minor Amendment so take me back on that uh how will that apply to all the car dealerships in town that have lots of things written on the windshields of cars uh if I'm not mistaken I believe there's certain those ordinances regulating the use include specific standards that allow that so similar to the uh regulation where the statement saying unless superseded by local state state or federal law um I don't think that satisfies what you're looking for but the intent was that those us as specific regulations allow price signage and whatnot that that's fine that's fine okay goe um it just occurred to me and believe me I know how incredibly difficult it is to try and um it's like trying to find a needle and a stack of needles but it's um what about food trucks TRS are by Design have signs on them and they part and they're moved around and we don't have a lot of food trucks and I don't think we're going to but we do have them Fridays at farmers market and all day they're there all day yeah so so in my opinion that's related to a public event specifically invited and allowed that case is not really recreated but you had a food truck that just randomly goes down to people's properties without permit or license that's a separate issue U but related to again the tent was if it's a vehicle is parked when we set time not moving and it's just a sign that's the intent what's trying toate that would be also regulated by our parking ordinances right also Imagine the state has you know certain specifics what you can and cannot put on the vehicle per I you can't have you know there's probably Department Of Vehicles in fact as a commercial vehicle you know you're almost required to have name and b or you're not consider commercial so you I could fall under defer to state law on that unless a problem and in those cases typically it's a residence of a home who has a business and they Park their car on the property and that's allowed in park that's fine but the intention is it's just a park vehicle on private property it's not uh situated or located in a manner that is intended to highlight for cause being advertising for business right and that then gets into trouble our plumbers and electricians and other other maintenance workers who Park in their homes this particular provision to me is very troubling because I I see it as a vehicle that can be abused by people who want to harass people who are Tradesmen who are bakery shop owners and food truck owners so this this provision while I cannot say it's by itself inconsistent with our master plan because I do understand where it's coming from and I obviously didn't draft the ordinance I would recommend that this particular paragraph be Revisited before being implemented to avoid it being abused by people who want to make trouble for others where that was not the intent of the ordinance anyone else have comments I have one more um just with regard to Temporary construction signs um in the future if we're having any kind of development in town we have uh Developers that are putting up signage advertising what is coming um this seems a little Limited in terms of the size of what those signs can be does this adhere to that like if someone's putting up a construction fence to keep people out of the job site and then they use that space on the fence to put up the name of the company to maybe advertise pictures of the future building um are there limitations on what a developer can do to advertise the development so on its face you have three of those signs more than that doesn't comply I will say if you go around town any community no one complies with that so there another mechanism of doesn't apply and you take it down or cover it I'm not sure I would suggest amending it because it creates it's can of worms you try to loosen it up because then you should should we regulated on how large the is they lot 20 signs I and I don't think that's what we want to see there should be some restri if that issue comes up we could deal with it at site plan approval we can ask the question these signs we even suggest that you know we that is pretty cool to see what's coming we can Rec but that would be the site plan and if we wanted to um permit a bigger sign than the ordinance we would be able to do that ex time absolutely in fact I think to your point a great comment because I I think what we try to do in h park over the past few years is we try to work together collaborate and sometimes you do ask those questions like why are you asking I'm just trying to get AOL for a building we're working together and we this is the perfect opportunity like well you should probably put on your plan a sample construction sign P because this particular project we may not have any issues or we so long as it complies or so long as you can prove it through the exemption processability under those standards and granted um but as you know each construction site is different it could be a 50 plot it could be six acres but yeah I agree that's the opportunity the opportunity to regulate that is to first of all ask during complete this review and deal with it at okay thank you sorry I have one more note that I forgot about because it was on the second page um sub 14 no inflatable devices does that include that lovely Panda that gets put out in front of yie Pokey Cafe because that thing is adorable people take pictures in front of it no comment so but it would preclude the the giant INF FL R that's what I I was going to say that you said it so that's protected by the first am the rat the rat's not a sign that's perhaps the Pen's not a sign either so there you go wait a minute let me go back to my definition of signs here right up front according to this a sign that displays or includes any letters numbers symbols other characters logos Graphics or images well I guess it's an image communicating a message I guess do maybe I don't know message just in and itself symbols of pandos so the rat would be fine but the r had a sign on it that would be bad all right I believe that's an idea of discretionary enforcement then anybody else all right that being said this ordinance has come to us on the question of whether this board finds it not inconsistent with the master plan so to that end I will solicit a motion one way or the other ready to say that I find this prop resolution that this ordinance is I find it not inconsistent so moved seconded seconded by Sten eor we'll take a roll call please Mr Brer yes Mr Chen Mr ier yes M yes Mr H yes Mr yes Mr oh I'm sorry probably should redo the vote and open up for public comments oh my gosh thank you so much I do apologize we're gonna pull back on the vote and that is my fault because as I open up our discussions for public comments I'm going to observe there are no members of the public with us here tonight last chance all right I'm going to close it close the public portion and then uh we can resume our our voting on that matter thank you so much Mr Malay yes Mr Perman yes Mr St now Mr Williams Miss yes with the strong recommendation that that paragraph number five we looked at all right so with that I am actually going to open up the meeting once again to members of the public on any other matters that they may wish to should be heard on but seeing that nobody walked in in the last 5 minutes or have been here all evening from the public I will close the public portion um of comments for our meeting is there anything else the board would like to discuss questions updates I just want to say I think that this plan is really great in the fact that it's more uh use specific than content specific and um the part that's on the B I was looking at that this would be really helpful to be disseminated to any new businesses that register in town so if we have some sort of a welcome packet for new businesses they should absolutely get a copy of this I agree I think uh the intention is to embed the C ordinates similar the other mes are if not it will certainly be available at m h Park and in all Scott you got anything interesting going on around town um we got a new uh application for a new house on the um the house on South Third is two families start they start doing the foundation on that uh restaurant on Mariton is coming along that should be another I think about another month do they have a business applying to be there or they're just doing them it's going to be a Greek restaurant oh okay I give them about another month wow that fast um down it 124 the old park place that they doing in black with the wood how's jerus pizza coming it's okay that fair enough fair enough all right then that'll bring us to the end of our meeting in I will El anything else last chance I'll Sol a motion to adjourn motion tojn motion to adjourn by seconded by Jeff all in favor we no one get