just takes a minute to start the YouTube okay we're good thank you good evening good evening everyone I'm calling to order the May 9th meeting of the Hillsdale burrow Planning and Zoning Board and we're now in order we'll begin with the open public meeting statement M Bar deputy secretary Tanya followed by the Pledge of Allegiance Dan come thanks good evening this is a meeting of the Hillsdale planning board on Thursday the 9th day of May 2024 which is being held in compliance with the provisions of the open public meetings act and Association regulations notice of the time and place of this meeting have been provided to the briwood news and the Bergen Record a copy was posted on the bulletin board outside of the this meeting room and the burrow website and was made available in burrow Hall and provided to any interested parties a copy of the agenda for this meeting was made available for review on the Burrow's website near the posting of the meeting notice and in burrow Hall please silence all cell phones please wait to be recognized by the chairperson during the public hearing and the public comment part of the meeting you will need to state your name and town of residence for the record a copy of the below listed applications may be obtained by requesting a copy in advance of the meeting by contacting the board deputy secretary at 2011 666 48 extension 1543 Monday through Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. in addition the application documents are available for viewing or download on the planning zoning board page of the burrow of Hillsdale website at w ww. Hillsdale nj.org or by appointment at the Hillsdale bur Hall 380 Hillsdale Avenue Hillsdale New Jersey 07642 please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance IAT so at this time we are swearing in a new member that we're welcoming Mr stepen samarco and we are also moving to uh switching two seats and Alternate moving to a different seat and Miss Guzman who's not here tonight she'll be sworn in next meeting she's becoming a regular member moving up from an alternate so we'll have mayor shinefeld ad Minister the oath first to Mr samarco swear that I will support the Constitution I will support the Constitution the state of New Jersey the state of New Jersey and I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same to the same the government's established the government establish in the united states in the United States and in the state and in the state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people and you swear I will Faithfully I will Faithfully partially and partially and justly and justly perform all the duties all the duties of the office of the plan Board of the office of the plan board alternate number two alternate number two ter ending December 31st 2024 December 31st 2024 according to the best of my uh I need your signature okay and Mr Marco we know you're neest to Hillsdale but you're a very experienced public servant so we're very happy to welcome you to this board thank you thank you yes Dr Weber gà for you huh Here We Go Again old I Arthur Weber Arthur wber swear SAR I will support the Constitution I will support the Constitution State of New Jersey state of New Jersey that I will bear true faith and Allegiance I will bear true faith and to the same to the same and to the government's established and to the government's established in the united states in the United States and in this state and in this state under the authority of the people under the authority of the people I do solemly swear Solly swear I faith that I will faithfully impartially and impartially and justly and justly perform all the duties perform all the duties of the office of plan of the planning board of the office of the planning board alternate number one alternate number one term ending term ending December 31st December 31st 202 according to the best of my ability according to the best of my abil so thanks [Applause] thank you Dr weberg thank you m shinefeld so now we'll have our official roll call to open the meeting chair Roman K present Vice chair rean here secretary Raymond here Mr alter here Mr fredman here Mr GRE Miss bman Dr Weinberg here Miss Mara here sorry Mr Council Le onim here may Shin here and we have Ed here tonight representing Christa tels firm thank you at this time I'm going to open the meeting to the public this is for any issues or items other than those that we're going to be hearing tonight on our agenda please come forward if you'd like to address the board at this time seeing none I'll close the meeting at this time to the public and we'll move on to a resolution that we need to approve this is resolution 20242 for board attorney CSG law please review and when you're ready I'll take a motion motion to motion by Mr Raymond second second Mr alter chairwoman te yes Vice chair reardan yes secretary Raymond yes Mr alter yes Mr fredman yes Dr Weinberg yes Mr samarco yes Council on yes mayor shinfield yes motions pass thank you Tanya now we'll move on to our hearing for this evening this is p Z 0524 block 504 lot 71 elen Court Ontario Cortez for cover patio your stepback so um you can come up to the microphone please so we're going to ask that um when you speak we're going to first identify who you are and just speak into the microphone because we're taping this in the public watches on YouTube can we check that mic make sure it's turned on great wonderful do you have representation tonight uh s contractor okay you want I'll swear everybody thank you okay I'm going to ask you all to please raise your right hands at this time you sworn do you swear or from testimony but gives the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so be gone okay so we you state your name SP your last name for the record and Tarot Cortez spell the last name you said c o r t s ma' Ken CZ same spelling and sir your name Gano m is a Michael i o n e just spelled again I'm sorry sorry meon m is a Michael i o n as a Nancy e and your first name Gano guui t a n o and your address please 1709 Lakeside Drive South in Fort rer New Jersey and you're the contractor yes I own patio Paradise all right you're all sworn um so go ahead and tell us what you want to tell us I I'll start if that's okay I'll introduce myself and then explain how we started and basically how we got here is that okay make it very fast okay no no that's fine take your time all right I own patio Paradise here's one of my brochures that kind of gives you a good detail of what I do um 22 years in business this is year 23 I was introduced to the Cortez's through a referral not far up the road on on Beachwood Drive I it's a different township but Washington town Township um one of the similar project that the um the laxes had had covered roof patio it's typically what we do um so I met with them we talked about you know what their goals were as far as design wise um covering family concerns things like that so we started off with a much larger roof expanding I think it was 37 1/2 ft still maintaining the 24 25 ft depth off of the house originally it was covering the kitchen area there was actually uh a fire pit area tucked to the right if you're looking at the house but we were still within that setback um went back and forth at a bunch of revisions finally finalized on everything I had approached the township um there was a miscommunication on my part in the beginning um I thought it was 40% lock coverage I found out it was 30 which wasn't a big deal we still worked around it um the issue that we really ran into so I did downsize everything um to get to that we actually got under 30% the issue we were having with the roof was the setback issue we explored the option of doing a detached one it just doesn't really work with the design and a detached roof does conform with the code from my uh understanding meeting with the Zone zoning officer and I believe the construction officer as well but it just it just doesn't really it just doesn't work um so we explored the option of reconnecting it making it smaller the kitchen area that whole barbecue area area is no longer covered a standard roof that we do I I brought other example pictures here um you'll see them all over my website and and all over the internet but typically the the the smallest we really make them when considering you have a fireplace the furniture and things like that um is 25x 25 which which is that 600t threshold um again it works with everything toode height impervious surface the only issue we have is a setback issue the lot is squared most of the lots that we do work on a common lot I'm sure as many of you know it's more like rectangular so for example the lot might be 100t 100 ft deep but 40 ft wide we usually don't have a concern with such a um such a deep rear setback and if you look at the survey the setback literally pretty much touches the back of the house alleviating or um eliminating the possibility of kind of doing anything like this so it's just an unfortunate situation where this particular project works with with all other items um from construction engineering impervious surface coverage everything it's just the setback issue I did talk to the zoning officer about I know it sounds silly but you know if the roof is detached it doesn't fall into that that setback issue so I said what if it's one foot off of the house which most people would agree is ridiculous it's like well what distinguishes the code of attached detached if it's an inch off is it detached you get what I'm saying never mind you run into gutters and drainage and all of those things it's just silly you know in the end it just really has to be attached um I think everyone could agree and it's just what you see on the norm especially in the communities around and it's just what we do it's what all guys in my realm of business do you start off covering the sliding glass doors and you have an outdoor living area to say um it's what we do every day it works we're just have an unfortunate position of the home distance of the home off the street the large rear setback that literally like I said touches the back of the house um so I I I put a lot of time into the design we explored a lot of options um and this is really the final piece that we came up with which is keeping in that 25x 25 area which allows you to do your standard sofa you know patio set under there and just have clear access Walk Way Around and so on um it's just the normal of of what we do the minimal of what we do in a situation like this if that makes any sense I'm sorry yes sure so the board is going to ask some questions about your testimony that you just presented um Ed do you want to give us a overview first before we go to the board sure thank you I think you're on yeah swear you swear from the testimony about the G the truth I do just thank you um okay so we just had a few questions um regarding a couple of them were a report um number one was the rear yard setback we had scaled the rear yard setback um to 242 to the fireplace or the fireplace yes at the far end did you confirm those yep it finishes flush with the back wall of of the roof they always mimic the frame just like the patio I hope I'm answering your question correctly you know what I mean so if it's like a 25 by 25 roof the patio frame the fireplace frame fits within the that that threshold you know what I'm saying it doesn't protrude like like like um in your home for example you have a bump out with the roof pit you know what I'm saying oh it doesn't for from the drawings it look like it yeah it's just a 3D renting I apologize but it does I just wanted to confirm the actual re yard step back variance that's your assd at the end of the day we're going to have an as survey need if the appliation surve showing conformance with the with the with the varant saturation exactly so so it is actually 20 so the papers appear to come 24t 1 in off the end of the house there we go and that that's what the roof fruit is going to mimic as well okay um and then we did the other thing was you did check you mentioned you uh talk about the impervious coverage correct you did confirm it we scaled it off and we got 2783 again at the end of the day we need to confirm that you're under the 30% with an eal survey exactly y yes um just two other questions I saw you added the storm management into onto this plan that we received yes I don't know if I say something maybe I should have said it before as you know I is it okay I don't want to interrupt you okay um not only do we like I said make the remove the fire for made everything you know a good amount smaller and all those things um I did take into consideration storm order management not to go off topic but I I truly do understand how important it is if anyone's familiar with por River Beach and that we suffer tremendously about uh because of the flooding and the bay coming into all the Shore Homes there it didn't do that before 2005 it's just getting worse and worse every year because everybody just paved everything and just the water goes on the streets and the drains oh my God I'm sorry and so on um so you know as even though the the project doesn't from my understanding and my research and and talking with the zon Au it doesn't require the storm water management we were hoping to have that in as well you know potentially as a compromise and and so on that the square footage that we were already adding to the property we're going to compensate run all the uh sto um the gutters into a storm order management system and and and everything else just to contain that water on the property um we talked about some trees and things that as well so sorry maybe I should have mentioned that before no you okay so just CL are you putting in a stor water system definitely that's that's the idea yes that's what I proposed yeah 500 gallons I'm sorry I don't remember the size it's it's in the paper 500 I'm sorry yes yeah okay just we'll have to confirm all that yeah it's it's on the paper y okay okay um and just lastly um there is I see an air conditioning unit shown on the on the survey that's going to be relocated no it'll it'll it's perfect right there y we're not moving to AC unit now it's between the walkway and the house okay okay very good um so members of the board would see it as a basic simple I say simple but just a rear yard set back variants um we have spoken with the applicant um believe that they're going to meet our requirements that we set forth in our letter okay thank you Ed we'll turn over to the board now for questions m Mr fredman we'll start with you thanks um the first question uh was actually for Ed um just there was testimony about the detached um where if it was a detached I guess it would be an accessory Dell accessory structure and is that true that at that point then it would not have to be within the rear yard set back correct correct it's uh I have to check the actual ordinance but typically it's the height of the height of the structure this is the property line so if you were I believe you were to offset this structure one foot off of the house typically would not need a variance that is correct so there wouldn't be a rear yard setback requirement at that point correct no it would meet the requirements for an accessory structure which the I believe the maximum would be 10t set from the rear yard so no if you were to set it off of foot it would not require variance as a detached structure Goa I'm sorry but it need to be 10 ft away from the primary structure as an accessory structure does uh that might be a building code it's more of a statement than a question so you couldn't set it up one but just before we get into that back and forth commentary I believe if I if I could try I'm sorry you can mention like so for example um I have 50 ft right and if it's a 25 by 25 whatever and just an example it has to be 10t from the rear line there is a distance that has to be off the house is that what you're saying yes okay sorry D yeah no no no no yeah they didn't mention anything um to that that with yeah I just wanted to follow on that line of question um so we right now uh there was in sa's letter um and are you saying that there there would be required two different uh variances one for the the fire or fireplace and one for the the structure itself no it would be a single a single rear yard set that variance the question was the the drawings actually show the fireplace a little offset from the rear okay um and that's not actually indicated on the survey the survey kind of shows it as a square but if you look at the actual drawings for the fire pit it shows I'm sorry for the for the drawing it shows the fireplace offset somewhat from that so our concern was if there was a variance issued it was issued to the closest part to the structure which would be the fireplace if it protruded but as he stated fireplace will not protrude okay I just confused by the way um okay and that fireplace is that does that gas or is that we're most likely going to do gas it could be wood buring or or gas but ideally nowadays it seems like all the ones that we do are like a lineal insert it's just the trend and it would be a gas a gas unit okay the wood burning we just seem not to do very often anymore um and in terms of the size I I mean I know you're saying that this is the typical size uh you would use in essence looking at the depth of the house is actually equal to the depth of the house pretty much so it's in essence doubling the depth uh towards the re she wanted to that uh no other questions thank you Mr Freeman Mr Rayo thank you I actually stopped by the house today I met the home owners and we talked about the very briefly about the U what they're planning to do um and I came up with um some questions the first question I do have and maybe this is for Ed also the stormw management system the 10 by1 by 3 work somebody where did you come up with 10x 10x3 and is that sufficient in your your opinion to satisfy what what we're proposing oh sorry um so it's dependent on the actual storm order management system that I'm using I'm assuming he's going to use a ctech chamber or something similar so I I had given um some papers we basically take a big hole put separation fabric I have an overflow I take I calculate the roof you know so usually we would take left and right Corners at least with this size home run them into there and then the roof uh the gutters from the roof as well Into the Storm pit and it's filled with the large textured like the the not the 3/4 Trap Rock it's like a 3 to 5 in Trap Rock like a baseball size prob you really bigger than a baseball that goes in there and we encase it with fabric and then lawn goes over it so you never know there so it's a dryw basically like a big dryw yeah so again my question to you is that sufficient or should we be talking about this a little further with a CO covert or a different type of drainage system a CCH Sim very it's very similar um and if you can provide calculations to meet the 500 gallons that would be sufficient they can make it work one way or then we will need a a detail on what he's actually doing that's my mask I didn't see any detail provided um well we weren't provided anything oh sorry air conditioner I just want to confirm that staying in the same location yes okay and I just want to understand again this might be to your your your point if this was built 10 ft away from the building the existing structure or 5 ft away you still need variance for this I know if that's to the our attorney or to our engineer in other words whatever he whatever is being built off the structure has to come before us for a variance whether it's 10 ft 5T 20 ft so anything that's what he's proposing is attached to the actual structure right so at that point it becomes part of the actual structure and the rear setback is taken to the nearest part to the rear property line if it was detached he would have to meet whatever regulations there were for detached structure I understand that so we're at what is this this this 25 ft yes so if you were to build this at 10 ft you'd still be coming for for a variance the the only like the so when I had done um the research and I had brought everything with the zoning officer and there was another person there and we laid out a bunch of options and that's what I was talking about like the 1 in one ft um but the the only other the other concern was and I think you might remember this was the overall height of the structure so like when I Peak to an a for example I don't remember the exact math but let's just say it was 15 ft from the the top of the the peak to the ground there was a there was a concern with the height and I would have had the lower the pitch on the roof so we would have done like a g roof or something like that and it's pretty much not vaed at that point so it's doable but it requires more changes and then when you do these roofs and you see them very rarely do you ever see a flat ceiling across it's just not it's not the goal you know so that was something that we of you know obviously didn't want to do then we explored the option of having the patio lower so it's not raised but then we have the staircase which interferes with the roof location and the step back and it was it just starts to become a Snowball Effect you know what I'm saying and how high is this off the off the ground I think we we started talking about that say was a foot 2 feet do you remember what the uh the patio the patio how the from the from the long to the base of the floor is 24 in so it's three steps three 8 in steps and also to avoid the railings okay so no railings at all no no railings are needed okay um neighboring properties are there any is there any interest I don't see anybody any neighbors here is there any is there any concern about the neighboring properties the structure seems big it seems a little like like Dan was saying um the same size or width of the house is there any neighbors that have come to you or have you go gone to them to say this is what we're like to do are you concerned with what we're doing are they here have you a letter anything we went to everybody uh we specifically asked our neighbor right behind this St they're actually in delw right now can you just speak into the mic I'm sorry so they're in Delaware right now the they was right behind us so you were there so they have a uh chain fence behind us that pool patio covered patio Etc um they had no issue with it they said they'll write a letter if you'd like um we did plan 36 other in the back that about two years ago so they probably grown about four to five Ines in the last two years or so um you know happy to plant more if it provides more privacy the neighbors directly to our right are putting in a fence next week weet uh that is a privacy fence uh then we do have tree line all on the left side as well so we are fairly going to be we're going to be fairly protected from everybody around us within the next couple years would I like to see based on my visit today if the board so chooses to improve the application I'd like to see some more privacy for the back neighbor we're not talking about the neighbor today or tomorrow it's in the future so if you if this is built it's going to be big if the board decides to do this um but those trees in the back need to either be changed or increased and the size should be increased as well because of the the the effect of of looking at the structure from the back neighboring property okay that's all the questions I have come up to the mic please you have an idea like would um for example like a 10 to 12T rail in Cyprus um something like that or I guess it would be something we would propose and then you guys we can discuss that um if we get to that point that's a fairly for sure some of us no trees they are super fast we plant them all the time for privacy with good success and 10 to 12T is a really good semi-mature size where they'll grow 3 to 4 foot a year until they get to that like 18t more great okay thank you thank you Mr alter yes thanks um my first instinct told me this is a very large structure and having a fireplace 24 ft and change from the property line may present some some problems I think uh smoke um on a windy day it's much closer to your neighbors than it should be um so that's that's a point that bothers me quite honestly um let me yes um what are you doing with the enclosed porch on the side of the house is that a remaining on the side yeah you have an enclosed porch on the side of the house as well as what you want to put yeah I mean that's fully enclosed yeah yeah is that going to remain yes so you have it's not it's not being touched not no so any two enclos that's a playroom this is this is not an enclosed structure it is totally open on all three sides right that porch is a l playroom for three and 5y old right but it still provides ovious coverage because of a roof uh the new addition um actually Ed I want to ask you a question um um looking at the site plan or the survey I gu I see a lot of concrete asphalt driveway that goes up the side of the house concrete porch and steps in the front the concrete pad concrete steps in the porch in the back concrete pad and now you're adding this are you sure the Improv coverage is within the limits we did we did scale the drawing B know cat scaled it to ensure that the impervious coverage met but obviously this is just as you can tell this is a hand drawing um and that's why I we question the applicant to confirm their numbers that the impervious coverage did meet like I said I we scaled it off of this drawing but this is handdrawn it's not always built Point are there more numbers we need that aren't included is that your question that we need more full numbers of all the concrete on the whole look like a lot of them C is covered and I mean if they're within the limits fine but you know unless we have ACC information we won't know that correct and the there is some areas of P correct if I can try because I I can answer that um there there is an impervious coverage breakdown from the engineer and from the survey on there all those calculations that they are 100% accurate what I've provided um everything's the scale but it's also broken down as a d dwelling driveway concrete we even broke down the little slate stepping stones in the front it show like a a pretty solid wall if you seen it's like all broken pieces of slate in the front um it's actually probably even less square footage okay um it shows the shed on there so yeah so it's actually so we're at 27% whatever it is but it's actually closer to 25 okay um and and if I could just answer the fireplace thing real we did switch it's um it's a ventless linear unit so there is no smoke um there's no wood burning there's no stack on the top it's a controlled ventless system where is that vent to there there is no vent just comes out I I can't explain the signs of it there's just there's no fume but however uh I'm sorry I probably should I installed two a week but uh I don't know how that system is contained it shows a flame but there is no there's no vent there's no smoke there's nothing there's no sulfur um that's the modern reir units so I understand with the smoke that's why a lot of people have beered away from the wood burning stuff we just don't really do them anymore um people want to now hit a button and they come on you know okay um one thing that always concerns me about structures like this is what I call the drainage root of the water um we have a lot of problems in town as every town does in recent years with flooding yes um can you tell me where this water is going to drain to exactly coming off thead roof so coming uh off the the new cover roof that's that's what I'm concerned with and also all these concrete PS yeah so right now you know let's just say start with the walkway for example so you have a landscape bed between the house and then you have the walkway and then you start the lawn so right now the gutters are like many other homes where they just go and they typically just drain right on the grass you know which is normal everybody has it those gutters now they get piped down Underground and they go into that catch Basin that we're building the storm water management system um we put a drainage usually along the right at the end of The Mulch with some River Rock the reason why I do that it's a little additive that I do with my projects not everybody does but to catch that rain water sprinkler water and things like that because sometimes if you ever had mulch a lot of times people will complain little bits of the mulch get run off on through the walkway it creates a mess so we put like a river rock water in but we also put a pipe system in there as well cuz I don't like water going over my hardcap for sitting underneath the hardcap for moisture freezing and Tha longevity of the project and all those things so all of that water is caught every any nothing obviously where the roof is covered is getting any water that system that um or not the system sorry the the small area where the little outdoor kitchen is that water actually pitches back to the house a little bit and then it goes down the staircase and again it's caught into a drain system as well that goes through the storm water management system the gutters for the roof um I don't I don't have the gutters come down the front of the roof that you see it this is more of an athetic thing you know a lot of times the the gutters pitch away from the house and then you have the gutters come down the nice columns that we build and it just looks hius so we actually reverse it we pitch them towards the house and then the gutters go along the house that way and then they're piped underground into that system as well so we're absorbing a lot of this groundwater and putting it in there and you are agree to the 500 fo tank oh yes I I I'm so sorry I I just don't have the exact Ma I believe that 10x 10x3 system with a 12in covering of soil over the top I believe it's close to 800 gallons the reason why I really know is and um I go off topic for a second if you're familiar with Bucks County Pennsylvania um anything pretty much that we do over there in New Hope Buckingham I work a lot lower Mayfield Township no matter what you do now you have to do a St water manager system if you want to put a a hot tub PIR anything you have to do it so there's no percentage anymore you have to compensate for everything that we install there whether it's 100 square ft or 10,000 square ft a common system that I do with Bucks County Conservation system is that 10x 10x3 system and it covers all of my patios up to 2200 ft very rarely do we do these over 2200 ft and I believe it's right up like around that 800 gallon um area sorry I don't know the top of my head but it's a it's more than enough for this but I mean we could increase it it's if they said do 13 by 133 by it's it's it's really not if anyone's familiar with them it's pretty easy it's digging a hole and filling it with stone that's why it's it's a good compromise for the homeowner the town the drainage we do them regularly it's something we propose often cuz it does it helps Aid to solving not solving the problem but obviously not making the worse you know like I said I live in a town that suffers if anyone's familiar with forky River you might know My Town suffers tremendously because of storm War the lack of storm water move sorry yeah you going on around um one question for the homeowners has anybody any of your neighbors ever complained about flooding communal property uh never never never okay other questions thank you Mr author Mr Weir um who drew uh on the site plan the proposed myself so the contractor um are and to both legal and engineer uh do we typically accept handrawn thing from a Contractor on a site plan without any Bol tables or definitive testimony and they're not licensed to do St for a simpler variance like this typically we have this with a roof this could be a 500t family room it is a 500t family room just with no enclosing we say correct but it's got a roof so you know I I think this is a big varness without a proper site plan in my opinion um you know it's rare you'll ever have a exact number setback and I I just I personally don't feel comfortable with this site plan without having I know you have the existing vot table from Morgan but there's no propose so we can see the the increases right that's the existing from Fus we have there yes um and we don't have building coverages either um you know yeah should this been deemed complete with what we so I was talking to T and she asked she had the same concern and asked Chris and Chris said it Chris is decision once it was acceptable it's not like a fence variance that's just I understand so maybe this is something we need to clar we need to clarify with Chris when he returns in all honesty you know I've had clients do this and they close the damn thing once they realize they want to use it in the winter that's so the reasoning for this is we host his family a lot a lot of his family is now elderly and we're looking for a space to enjoy with our kids and with our entire family we have no intention of closing it in the whole purpose of us even putting the roof is to be able to use it more months out of the Year and have family gatherings so I definely 100 I commend the design it's a great design bringing in the PA up so you don't need steps out totally get it it's just it's almost a 500 foot addition anyway you look at it um so that's just something that you know and if this board grants this in favor you know that sticks with it so if anyone could keep this footprint and make it a full edition and it could be a two-story Edition at the end of the day too but um uh we haven't really touched on uh any hardships that this varience is uh trying to request um you know the lot is it a level lot it's not topography doesn't have any sloping or anything that makes this no you you come out plain like this I mean they all have a slight pitch but I believe you you belly down in the back if I remember correctly like a ravine yeah they there's like a small Creek in the back but but we're not talking anything that causes no there's no there's no loads of trucks if I could just add one thing real quick it was just to reference what you were saying before um I I did speak you you were in the email I don't remember the gentleman's name when we talked about the architect plans the engineering plans and that um I did speak to someone um through email I I don't know if that person's here or not was just the teal okay so I I went back and forth um and I had meant I think someone had asked for an architect plan or something at that time or I don't remember exactly but we had said you know that's that's fine that's expected we do it all the time we have to have the architect the engineer but they replied the email saying that this was okay at least to I guess to get moving and then if if approved of course we have to submit that updated plan as far as with the architect plan for the roof and so on cuz I totally understand what you're saying um I do draw on the surveys all the time for a paper patio and that some townships do require that the surveyor survey company does it or upon final inspection we have a final as Bill done so I'm so I I totally get what you're saying and I did have that discussion about do I have to have this you know updated now with the um with the patio and we we were told to wait so I'm sorry yeah that's fine uh back to the hardship thing um the lot reading the review letter it's a oversized lot for the zone is that correct that is correct that is correct it is uh that's barely it's 5,899 where 15,000 required so so we have conforming lot size um is there anything non-conforming about this lot that would be in the favor of this applicant I guess lot depth where you have 130. 31 or 150 is required is that a fair statement Ed that is correct all right so that being said um you know I I just have a a problem with I'm going to circle back to the side plan that you guys have provided um I I don't even I don't think it's even legal for the contractor to submit drwings and then have the homeowner all right so I'm going to jump in here if you all think I'm talking too much just tell me you think I'm talking too much since I'm new to the board uh first question sir are you an engineer myself okay do you have any engineering training um no but I I'm very I work with them every day um I submit I'm going ask you I'm going to ask you some questions you've been in this business for 20 years you said 22 years this year how many similar projects have you uh installed previously at least 250 okay um if the board approved this project with the applicants agree that as a condition of approval prior to the issuance of permits that architectural plans signed and sealed from a New Jersey licensed architect would be submitted to the board engineer for review and approval absolutely would you also agree if the board asks favorably to have your um surveyor prepare um a site plan for the property and it shows the uh precise measurements for all the setbacks the impervious coverage building coverage and loot coverage AB okay that would have to be signed and sealed and approved by the board engineer um and with respect to the the hardship I presume none of you are professional planners correct you probably never even heard of what that is don't even know what the heck I'm talking about right okay so in New Jersey when you want to U violate a setback like this we call this a c variant it's a bulk variance and you can come to a board like this and get permission to do that but there are certain things that you have to prove there's certain hardships that you heard being discussed uh those hardships typically have to arise from either a lawfully existing structure on the property the shape of the property the Topography of the property those are that's what we call C1 variants what you're looking for here is really more of a what we call C2 variance we call this the flexible c um and to convince the board that you should get a C2 variance you need to convince the board that one or more of the purposes of Municipal zoning are Advanced through the proposal so I'm going to read the purposes of zoning that I think are relevant it's the record to just profesh the board's recollection and I'm new to this board so I don't know how familiar everybody is with us but I want to just put the record also I want to introduce the board in the back of the chamber brand new associate in my office Kyle por who joined the F this week and I'm making him come meetings so this is for him too all right so the purposes of the municipal land use art law are a to encourage Municipal action and guide appropriate use or development of lands in all state in a matter that promote public health safety morals and general welfare like a nice catch all so if you wanted to say that this promotes public health safety morals and general welfare you could say that it provides like outdoor place for people to gather and socialize and that some value purpose B is to secure safety from fire flood panic and other natural manmade disasters you could look at this and say the storm water management system is going to capture uh flood waters and that you know may mitigate flood you could say that uh it provides adequate light air in open space that's a that's purpose C that's a decision that you all can make or not make if you want to um purpose D is really not applicable at all purpose e has to do with appropriate population densities this is a single family house single family use this use is an investment in that you could you could say that that that may apply um purpose F really doesn't apply purpose G is to provide sufficient space and appropriate locations for a variety of agricultural recreational residential commercial industrial uses open space both public and private according to their respective environmental requirements to meet the needs of all New Jersey citizens you can say that that applies here uh purpose H has to do with Transportation routs I don't think that applies here purpose I is uh most professional planers favorite it is to promote a desirable visual environment through creative development techniques and good Civic design and Arrangement and I think uh we've all seen these kind of structures popping up in recent years these are desirable amenities in what I would call sophisticated communities such as Hillsdale that you want to you may you may want to promote your decision uh purpose uh J has to do with preserving historic sites and energy resources and preventing urban sprawl that doesn't really apply purpose K has to do with plan unit developments it doesn't apply uh purpose K is uh regarding senior citizen housing purpose m is to encourage coordination of public and private expenditure I don't think that really applies but it does have a subsection that talks about efficient use of land and I don't think it really applies purpose n is to promote renewable energy resources purpose o is to promote the maximum practical recovery and recycling materials I don't think that really applies purpose p is to enable municipalities the flexibility to offer alternatives to traditional development through the use of Equitable and effective planning tools including clustering transferring f M rights averaging Etc I don't think this really applies and finally purpose Q is to ensure that development of individual municipalities do not unnecessarily encroach upon military facilities so that definitely doesn't apply so those are the purposes of Municipal planning there are enough of these things that are present in this application that if you were inclined to vote Yes I would draft a resolution that cites the ones that apply and this would be a C2 variant not a C1 hardship variance there's got to be hardship arising from the property and this is kind of terrible it can't be I need a wheelchair around in front of my house CU I'm disabled but amazingly the law does not consider that a hardship um but we usually find a way around that that's all I have Mr chairman thank you and I'll just reiterate it's up to the board to decide if the if this meets the criteria it's it's our job to decide that sure are we now voting on a C1 or C2 and as that been described to us as a C1 or C2 I mean it's really a C2 I don't think there's any testimony of the record that talks about the hardship the problem it's not it's not an undersized lot it's not burn by step slopes it's not an odd configuration it's a flexible s that's that's what this thank you if the applicant disagrees they can adjourn and come back with a professional plan or put on some plan generally we do have a lawyer or planner here who would have clarify what you're asking for in a case like this um question well let's just people haven't had a turn it so let's go down Dr Weinberg um when I looked over the plans again being a young member of of the board here it is doubling the size of the house which did concern me uh I wanted to ask Chris a question because he had mentioned a couple of meetings ago that when they do the drainage sometimes he puts he makes sure that there's one or two drainage fits I just want to make sure that what is being proposed is enough because that's the major thing we we're all afraid of these days is a neighbor coming back and saying I've got water uh the smoke is not a problem uh he's he's correct he's explained that the um It's Up 3 ft and you have young children we are we are also concerned about the kids not falling over uh the sides of this or anybody else so can you address that issue so safety safety concerns on the deck I think is the question yes uh we we do these every day uh it's within all the the building codes it's 2 ft to the platform and there is a perimeter wall the only openings are the staircases for entry and exit that's it so as far as like a child or someone um they they can't walk right off that especially a child have would actually have to slightly climb a wall it's not a typical 42in rail but those are only um the flooring is 30 in or higher similar to like one of the pictures that I had brought in here this one has shows railings but this one is 6 ft off the ground um but I I believe that the Cod is 30 in so we typically usually work we always try most clients don't want railings even for aesthetic reason so we work within that 24 20 24 to 29 in um threshold with the again from flooring patio to Grass the lawn mulch whatever does that answer your question okay as long as the rest of the board you guys know more about the uh the kids and everything else I as long as you guys okay is there like a bench seat height is that what the the stem wall around is going to be like a sitting height okay so they're making it the perimeter being a bench so people they're entertaining if they fall backwards over while they're having a party that's their problem and again the only concern I have is the water and that was my question to Chris is this satisfactory one fit uh big enough so I did a quick calculation I was talking on his proposed 10 x 10 X3 and that's approximately 800 and I had about approximately 870 gallons worth of storage based on a 10x 10 by3 so yes that is that is adequate for what we typically ask for in a situation like this thank you Mr Sarco any question yes I do thank you uh thank you very much for coming tonight testimony appreciate your time um my first meeting so um but a few questions that I have I did drive by the property so I I want to talk to the contractor real quick so you said you you've done over 250 250 to these type of uh structures probably probably probably more but I'm comfortable right now saying at at least 250 and and the structure what you're talking about we're talking about is attach of the house yeah almost I'd say at least 90% of the ones that we do at least even the ones you look on the internet and Techo block folks they're all attached the detached ones are more for pool projects even when we add a bathroom or it's like a cabana to get away from the pool we don't do many in a situation like this that are detached you really don't see them whether this setting or or another home everybody wants them attached they want to have the comfort of just walking from the living room or kitchen wherever it is straight outside hence the Outdoor Living movement right so we're all we're all hung up on this setback right so if it's attached it's 50 ft if it's not attached it's 10 ft yes I'm assing it's 10 ft yes close enough um at the beginning of your test go ahead it's actually the height of the structure from the re if it was detached it would be the I apologize if it was if it was detached it would be the height of the structure away from the rear yard setback so in this case it's 14 ft High something right and that's what I was talking about I had to lower the pitch to make it level to to meet those things so if it was detached he could go 14 ft from the property line but also has to be 10 ft from the existing my point is if it was detached we probably wouldn't be here no variance right right I'm not sure he could fit this size he could fit something smaller most likely I'm not sure this size would actually work cuz 10 ft from the structure 14 ft from the property line it would be close he could fit some form of structure in there not the same structure not the same structure but some form ofuure so at the beginning of your testimony you said something that struck me I wrote it down you said that a miscommunication can you talk about the miscommunication so when I had first come into the township um again I apologize I just don't remember everything but um I believe when I first come in I I had talked about structures and perious surface and things like that I had it all written on the folder I spoke with the zoning officer very nice man um but we didn't have I I think this Zone that it's in if I if I remember correctly has a different setb than another zone or or different impervious service am I correct it's the whole whole town 30% no yeah so whether it was me or him or the map somehow we got it wrong I thought it was 40 most likely me you know so that's where I started and we downsized everything because of that I was originally doing this a 40% lot coverage and not 30% and then also the setbacks were also different as well um we weren't going off of a 25 or a 50ft setep back in the beginning we were going off of 20 I believe similar to like a pool and things like that so so I I I put a lot of time in design and all and then when I submitted everything I found out that it was wrong so I went back and made major adjustments okay but those adjustments have nothing to do with the fact that what you're really looking for as I'm hearing tonight is a C2 variant not a see one variance um it's it appears that way yes so that's this is the first time we're hearing this tonight that's variance that you've applied for is incorrect I I don't know that I would call it incorrect it's it's in the same statute is 40 55 d-7 C and then there's subsection one and subsection 2 okay they these are commonly confused even by professionals so I would not hold that against a resent can I just point out so when we spoke with Steve lner he' actually suggested a C1 variant so that's why we submitted C1 I'm going tell us I me that's what we thought was the yeah probably because the properties a square not a rectangle saying he was wrong I'm just saying that's what we were advised to do so that's what we submitted not a big deal okay so and then one more question and then I'll and then I'll finish up um what would stop the applicants I think you brought up a great point from closing in this structure later on no the variance no they wouldn't need a variance toose them it's a setback variance the neighbors you you would make it a condition of the approval okay that the uh property could not be enclosed without uh returning to the board we're happy to do that Janetta would you like to ask something yes but um why would why why does it matter to everyone whether this is enclosed or not enclosed if the whole conversation is about a setback um right now it being supposed to be 50 ft from the rear yard and it's instead it's 20 whatever it is 24 and this is the reason that they're here what why is everyone so concerned about whether this thing is closed or not I'm not getting that we'll have the attorney explain so the uh the if you were going to approve this as like an enclosed addition of the vas first all I don't know what the floor area ratio implications are you start to run into like a MC Manion issue when you're in closing space like that um also this is a seasonal use so it's not a year around use um it starts to change the nature and the character of the application and the way the property is used there's other variances that we may need to proove if this was a closed structure it's a different Hearing in essence yeah and the neighbors you know may be fine with there being a barbecue in the backyard but maybe they don't want a two-story addition with Windows looking over their backyard into it so it's just it's a different flavor it's a different kind of apposition context of which it's presented well I think that would have to do with footings and and what structural changes yeah if I could just add one thing to you don't need okay yeah okay um mayor Seinfeld any questions yeah I couple um if we were to Grant the C2 variance um could it emphatically state that moving forward that it you know as part of the c ofo or whatever that you could not close it yes so that would be condition stipulation we would need to make a few stipulations as conditions of approval put on the we we would list those before we would vote right okay so and I was going to ask about your your neighbors in Delaware 280 and 272 l Road um yes technically I I this is I guess it's either for the record to just State this that if you needed to get to 10 ft you'd end up pushing it and becoming actually we wouldn't need a baren but you would be considerably closer to the neighbors property line right that's what we're talking about and end up putting the fireplace whether it's spewing out gas or not you'd be moving everything closer to that so I would think with talking about uh putting privacy bushes up there and not going Beyond there what we're really talking about is whether or not we want to allow the attached structure very and I would I would make the argument that leaving it attached is actually better for the Neighbors further away from the property line further away from the property line so that's I guess my comment on this so we would call that a better planning alternative uh another note that I just put in would be that a landscaping plan would be submitted and have to be approved by your board engineer prior to the issuance of perment I presume there's no objection okay uh Janetta any other questions um just to clarify again um if it was detached it we need to be 10 ft detached for it to be detached off of the and then it would be you're calling it an amenity accessory structure accessory structure an accessory structure and therefore it wouldn't even need a variance but it would have to be smaller or whole design because other issues would come into play correct it would need to be 10 ft from the main dwelling and then the height of the structure away from the rear property line which would was about 14 ft so they would need toet meet those parameters to make it to make it work as far as the neighboring part they would fit into the requirements then they wouldn't have to be 50 ft from the um from the rear of the property correct and like the mayor correct like the mayor stated it would it could actually be closer to the so I would say that I would agree with with his idea okay really we're asking questions now we can save our com I guess I was trying to this is the whole board not not directed to you Janette just a reminder we're asking questions of uh our professionals too that's fine so at this time I'll open the meeting to the public yeah I know we're going to go back to the board let me just open I'm going to open to the public seeing if there's anyone from the public that has questions for these applicants seeing none I'll close the meeting to the public and I'll ask the board if there any further questions Mr alter yeah um I agree with our vice shair Mr re met uh these plans are not sufficient for a structure of this size and to make it a condition that they submit at that point architectural draws if so approved I think it's too late for that at that point once it's already approved because the architectural drawings might change something you might see something you did not see before which would be the idea of having accurate drawings this is just a very large structure um 49% uh larger closer than it should be to the uh re yard so I for one cannot see going forward without getting more actuals okay um actually you know that our engineer did approve but being that there's an issue now we can talk to the applicants and the residents and see if they understand the concern and whether they're we're willing to adjourn the hearing until you can get those for us and for us to see them and sign off on them it's not your fault you know we didn't tell you that you needed to have those done but if you're willing to do that I think it's probably the best way to move forward being there's multiple members of the board that would like that the those specificities to be checked by our professionals and one question legal counsil I think just meant I'm sorry just mention that we can put this as a condition so well can you just wait Scott because I'm discussing this point first well that's what I'm doing as well I know but just wait we we're not I think we have to ascertain how many members of the board would like to see the calculations in advance of voting versus versus having you know voting as a condition because I know that a few members have mentioned that so yes yeah so my suggestion would be like everybody who wants to see the plans before they vote raise your hands okay so you you need a majority of the people that are voting to vote in favor so just counting the fingers that are in the end my suggestion to you would be adjourn this matter per month get the updated architectural plans the updated survey bring it back let our engineer look at it then we all know the numbers are the numbers you can get a vote and and hopefully it's a favorable vote and conclude the matter that and hopefully it doesn't slow you down because you're going to have to get those things anyway yeah and we we can that it gets approved assuming it gets approved the downside is you got to lay out the money to do this stuff and that was the reason why it was approved without is because to not have to pay for it you can certainly ask for a vote right now if you'd like yes you have you can do that as well okay all right so then what's our our next meeting night well we have a big one on next week well this Tak them more than a week to get these Point well no I mean we don't we don't meet for to we meet next on May 28th but we have two big hearings so what's the date after May 20th June 13 we have S Cher Hill most likely on that on June 13th yeah second is that appliation um let's see is that the no I just look my no I'm asking you the I don't remember what the for oh oh on June 13 I have it's Char yes oh I have yeah I don't I don't remember what it was for that's a py special look like it's just a SLE family house yeah I we could even schedule you first that night and have you go first and yeah so we should adjourn this to June 13 thank you for your understanding we appreciate it and I think it will help the board make the decision all right so just a couple housekeeping items this matter is being adjourned to June 13th at 7:30 p.m. in this room there will be no further public notice this is the only notice that's being given to the public and I need you to expressly consent on the record to turn the time between now and then for the board to act do you agree okay great thank you please confirm exactly what you need yes so so we want to have a a site plan prepared and that a that is a term of art it's a very specific item that'll have very specific measurements that a professional land surveyor will put on the the plan we want to know the building coverage we want to know the imperious coverage um and all the setbacks to be on the plan um You can call me if you have questions um and I'll tell you what you need if you if you forget uh the architectural plans need to be signed and sealed by a New Jersey licensed architect and I think that's everything that we need they don't have to be here to testify you don't need to bring them here yeah okay call me if you have any questions okay and I it wouldn't hurt to have the architect note that this this um this particular roof could never be turned into a two-story dwelling or anything cuz if this were ever to be made I'm not worried about that because an Express condition of approval is going to be that that never happened unless this board says that it can happen so I don't need the architect to test problem we get those drawings digitally as well when you have the prepare the plans have them email them over to us also okay okay thank you that's it okay thank you very much thank you thank you thank you for your time we appreciate it thank you okay we'll move on to a few short discussion items for tonight we want to raise um up the question of how we handle our completeness reviews here at the board we just for members that are newer it always used to be that our engine years ago and for those you've been a long time you can please join in this conversation that the engineer deems an application complete and then Tanya can schedule it um that's always how it worked until about I think 2 three years ago and I racked my brain recently over why we changed to having the board deem applications complete and our former attorney actually recommended to us and said it's the board's jurisdiction to deem an application complete it's not the engineers and she had recommended that the board deem the application complete and then I remembered why we had done it and the reason was for we had a lot of site plan applications at that point and we were missing very key documents that we needed and hearings were being cancel then then applicants had to pay to pay professionals to come back and it was a big mess so the reason the board was doing it is that so we had some oversight and what we were missing specifically was with site plan reviews we weren't getting reports from the Departments so um as I've heard in many other towns and people work in other towns can weigh in on this it is the engineer that's deeming applications complete for an applicant to pay to hold a meeting to deem something complete seems like a waste of time you know my concern is that an application is deemed complete by professionals that we have everything that we need so um Mr Le if you want to speak to that it display what you would recommend yeah so this is like a Hot Topic right now in every board that I'm representing it's not unique to all is down and this is this is a law completeness um it's the board's decision if the board wants to do the completeness and the board can also delegate the completeness determination to whomever it wants to you can establish a committee of your board members to do the completeness determination you can delegate that to your engineer or your planner or your attorney or your board secretary and you can even whack it up into different things depending what the application is so in some communities residential applications are deemed complete or incomplete by the board's secretary and Commercial applications are reviewed by the board's Engineers so you you can decide I do think that it is terribly wasteful and business unfriendly to make people show up at a meeting for completeness determination um the completeness process is also limited by your application checklist so when application gets filed the person or the board that's doing the completeness determination is required to go down the checklist and say are all the things on the checklist submitted in the application if they are then it's complete if they're not then you deem it incomplete and you're obligated to tell the applicant you're incomplete this is the thing that's missing uh it's important because when the application is filed you have 45 days to make the completeness determination and if you don't then on the 46th day it is deemed complete by operation of Law and then depending on the kind of variance relief sought different time frames start ticking by by which you have to take action and if you don't take action in the applicable amount of time uh the applicant can demand that the clerk of the municipality issue a certificate of um of approval and then when they don't do that and they never do then you get sued and the courts can force the approval down your throat uh in reality that is virtually impossible to accomplish the municipality has to be truly really acting outrageously to let that happen I know no attorney who's ever done it I've done it once um it was peculiar so I'm not too worried about that and you shouldn't be either uh but you should come up with a a way to expedite this process the downside is if your checklist says you have to provide a site plan and they give you a site plan but it's missing information well you cannot deem it incomplete they gave you a site plan yes it's missing all the setbacks you need but they gave you a site plan so it's complete and you get to the hearing and you tell them got your site plan uh it's terrible U you have to redo it or we're going to vote no and then you get adjourned and come back you can't stop that but could it be scheduled but but the engineer reach back out and say we need these calculations in the interum for when you come to the hearing doesn't that seem reasonable right so Chris's uh review letters very commonly you know he and I work together at riveral and he does the completeness reviews there and he will issue a letter very cly that says these are the items that are missing from the application if they are provided then the application will deem be complete and it can be scheduled and then they provide those things and then the board secretary puts it on the agenda and you go forward and you have your hearing and it's very efficient I I would recommend that you have Mr Steel's office do your completeness hearing he may have had issues in the past he's staffed up a little bit better now you got the new planner who I think is doing a wonderful job over there um so Tanya just said when when something is missing like that and usually an email goes out and she's copying the applicant does hear it so itd be good for the board to see it too I mean um personally I'm I'm feeling that for T sake for re s for scheduling stake I would like to go back to to the engineer deeming applications complete with the understanding that I think Tanya is willing to sort of be a second on that not with site plans but making sure that the key documents are in that we all need and so she would be like a second person reviewing that in that process so that they can schedule the hearings and like last month last meeting we came here just for completeness reviews we wouldn't have to do that but I'm opening it up to the board for comment yes um so I guess uh I guess I would expedite too the applications to come before us yes because we would have to wait till the Year yes the risk is if it seemed complete and like we were going through meeting after meeting with problems and we scheduling I'm not willing to have that happen again so I think having Tanya as a backup and making sure Chris understands that when it's deemed complete everything's there that we need yeah and I guess right now we schedule um during a hearing so in that case it it would be done off offline what do youan yes yes Tanya would like we had one recently that was not going to be within the 45 day window and Tanya schedule it and she just put on the agenda this is this one tonight has been scheduled um and then is there any way we can update the checklist to have more criteria indicated like to include you know right now it's a little there yes so you can definitely do that uh that has to be done by the mayor and counsel uh because it has to be done by ordinance I see and that's in towns get caught up on this sometimes the board will adopt their own checklist but but not the council so we can make recommendations and then they can exactly can we have a subcommittee of our board though work on that and then make the recommendations about the checklist okay and with three members that would have to be noticed or anything correct um just usually sub to think about that this is this is a nine member Bo all right so we can we can have an esoteric conversation about something called the the effective majority rule if you'd like to have that conversation um my preference is that the subcommittee have two members not three two there there is a I've argued with a lot of lawyers about this if you have five members of this body together that is a quum right and if three members can control what happens at the that five member meeting so let's say you have a c variance on you've got five members three members agree to Grant it that that c variance gets approved three members is what we call an effective majority and the open public meetings act talks about there shall be no meeting of an effective majority absent public notice that's interesting because our subcommittees like when we've done master plan subcommittees all our subcommittees have been three yeah so I've had this argument with Mayors at Gover body meetings in front of the public and other attorneys have disagreed with me um and so you're saying two to Aon side of CAU I would say two to Aron motion okay so checklist review separate item um how do we proceed in terms of changing our completeness process now because I believe we did vote did we vote I don't know if we have a record of if we voted to change our procedure would we have had it to vote um you should and my suggestion would be if you want to adopt the procedure that the board engineered do the completeness determination that you do a roll call vote on that issue and you direct the uh the bylaws to be amended to reflect that okay but I'm asking for any other comment on that change which is actually uh reverting to what we used to do any other comments about it can we get more explanation on it because I'm not sure so we you have to te before the board right we vote to approve so there's many things that we have to see in order to schedule a hearing and make sure it's ready to go and a lot in most cases that's usually the engineer does that and then we just hear the application it's scheduled for the members we made a change a few years ago our lawyer had advised us that the board should look to make sure all these items are in and that we agree that the application's ready to be heard so that's what we've been doing the last few years but it's creating a cost for the applicant and it's sort of slowing down our process cuz every time we meet and professionals are here that's a fee that someone's paying for like the applicant's paying for so that's why our lawyer was saying to expedite this process we should go back to what or was advising we may want to go back to what we used to do which is have the application documents be looked at away from the meeting it's the professional responsibility and when we come here it's to hear the application that's what we're deciding we're doing you have a question about it or you're just thinking about it um I just would like in light of like this toight yes this application was approved that it was ready yes and yet we've had a number of of problems like this so I just spoke to Tanya during this hearing and and said if if something comes in like Tanya had a question about this she asked Chris to copy the board CU I think if she reached out to me or the vice chair we would have gone back to Chris and say we want to see the survey we want to we want to see these documents so I think we will this is what I'm trying to do is even if we're trying over to Chris that Tanya knows to reach out to us Tanya is like the intermediary so if something seems like it's missing we didn't have that in the past someone who was uh inter intermediary between Chris on the board and she will catch some things and reach out to us and we'll reach out to Chris and make sure we have what we need I understand your question is like why would we turn more over like considering tonight something was missing that we needed is that what you're asking yes yeah well we had this issue in the past we have the right to I mean some things are mostly assumed that you would get a a survey that has a civil engineer on board with m i I just can't live with myself granting relief for something that says approximately 24 and a half it wasn't specific that's not how our our world works on approximates it works this was an option for for them and what uh what the should what mer is saying is during those completeness review uh when Chris tells us about the we can't even ask about the job we just got to ask it is there photos is there a plan it's a waste of time it truly is um I think Dan makes a great point if we change the wording that says submit a survey by a licensed uh engineer and drawings by an architect in the state of New Jersey the architect can take a site plan uh Joe Bruno does it all the time um but as long as someone's licensed and we can verify that they are putting their license on the line with their statements we uh you know when it's a contractor coming in front of you they're making a sale they try to sell us you know but the chimney was uh you know it went from being it was a projecting into the yard then he tell us no it's flush but that doesn't match we're just talking about this hypothetically we shouldn't talk about any particular application the C what excuse me drawers have to be cured well un signed off on by the right professional yeah but as long as this checklist has the right verbiage which we'll have a sub Community to do saying has to be within a 5year uh survey we already have that adopted and it says you know handdrawn but you could be hand drawn I take that back there are licensed professionals to hand drawing but I think as long as our wording is clear concise that way a checklist is easy and yep there is a survey here by a license somebody check so then just ring like our attorney said he they submitted a cying that's all it said it had to be right because that's what is exactly was wasn't their fault and there are recommendations by our Engineers saying hey you want to mess around but you should have this for the meeting or find out yeah I'm looking at your ordinance right now and I cannot find your checklist it's not that's extremely difficult to find this is the first I even heard as long as it's not just no no no it's not you I I have a very hard time fighting myself sketch and I don't think if I might say I don't think that the application is very user friendly if you have an attorney on board then it is but a lot of people come here and don't have attorneys on board and they I sit down with them for an hour and go over it and then they still send me lots of emails they call me they meet with me again because they just don't understand it and it's not their fault it's a little confusing so Tanya we maybe when we go through the checklist we can also the committee can look at other areas of the application that could be I know you've had some ideas about things in other towns that were more user friendly we can take a look at that too is that something that Council has to approve can't the board um approve their own the actual application process or the counc I mean I I think that the form of the application needs to be adopted via ordinance I I have I not looked at the law on that probably in 10 years so I would want to look at that a little more welcome to Hill you did that recently do I think Natalie did the re review of that if I'm not mistaken yeah we just we just like approved this like a couple months ago this application the application yeah well we I mean I think that's secondary right now the bigger issues the checklist at this time but yeah you're right and it was worse before then maybe maybe have written directions that are go there is directions but there it's everything's all over the place so it's just it's a little it's very confusing I'm looking at your ordinance section 31030 and it says the planning board shall by resolution prescribe forms for application so so the governing body has delegated that authority to this body so you can you can create your own application I thought it was always I thought we always could do it all applications to the board will be filed with the board secretary who shall St the date they shall be complete and referred to as a complete application when the application form is fully completed see this this is tricky right because now the the governing bodies delegated the checklist to to the board MH which I think is legally questionable uh look into that a little bit more and just the documents the number it doesn't even say what they are right so you send me the checklist I want to have a look at that okay I want to see when it was adopted and how it was adopted and who adopted it I'll send it to you tomorrow we'll get this all straight okay can we still we could still have a form a sub committee absolutely definitely for sure okay excellent so there's two items on the table first of all is anyone interested in being on that sub checklist subcommittee cuz I know some people I'd like to see on in person one yeah I think Stephen and Dan great you want to put two architects Bas we're basically going to see everything we hate about work sour come on I'm hope I'm sweet no thank you guys I mean you know you you know we need you on this um and then how do we any other comment on going back to our process of having the engineer deem applications complete with ta reviewing as well all right so can we we need to make a motion then so somebody should make a motion to you have this is how I would do it I would I would move that the board secretary do the initial review and refer completeness determinations to the board engineer when in her discretion she wants to refer if you get a fence application you can look at that and be like this is complete I don't have to send this to Chris so we can build this resident $950 to prepare four page rep on on their 4 foot sets of the front y but like she doesn't want to do site plan storm order any engineering that has to can do I don't want to do let ton decide which one she wants to approve for completeness and which one she wants to delegate to the board engineer that's fair okay so the board will not be signing off on that anymore so we need a motion so the motion is for our secretary to do the primary and then the conditional after that by the the board engine make a motion to thank you Mr second Dr lber chair yes Vice chair rean yes secretary Raymond yes Mr alter yes Mr fredman yes Dr Weinberg yes Mr Sarco yes counc is on Chim yes M sh yes Mo thank you everyone any other issues to bring up at this time I have none I just wanted to tell everybody that uh defense ordinance pass first read on Tuesday night so we have 50% we made a recommendation so Janetta put it forward and went through first read two months ago thank you guys yeah yeah definitely okay any anything else uh quick question so being that went through when does it become adopted we adopt it next month okay there coming true so cuz you have a fence coming on the 28th in front well okay but I mean no that's fine byw going to be we the 10 days isn't going to make it to the next meeting because it's it's the 14th so it's the next time get on okay so just I haven't been I can't remember being here when there was like a a change like that would that be announced how How would how would that be announced to the board or how would the board fall up on so um so so the if we used to have the time of app we we have a rule now that whatever the law is when you file your application is a law that gets applied so um Can someone tell me first of all like what's the change in the ordinance like what was it and what is it becoming it's the fence or is it 50% open 50% open so fences in the front yard have to be at least 50% open all new all new fenes that go up 4 ft high limit with 50% within the front yard in the front in the front yard did you used to be able to have like a 6ot solid fence in your front yard you could have a solid fence I don't think you go about so 4 foot is still permitted but it has to be 50% open yes okay you want to pick it fence Lu that's what you want well it's that it's also it's a safety issue also yeah you want to go see what's going on over there yeah for sure okay all right and there's application for a fence in a front yard that's pending before the board right now yeah which we probably shouldn't discuss but well I I just want to know generally um we let them know it's it's been deemed complete it's scheduled for a hearing sched next for the next week next meeting and is and is that application going to be is is that going to be a permitted use now what they wanted to do I you don't know we'll find out when way you won he's not going to be here we'll find out when we get her we'll take care of it but is it do we have application or would we be better to let them know we probably should yeah let me I I'll look at the application with ton and if I think it's appropriate to reach out to the resident and let them know I'll let them know okay yeah maybe they should withdraw the application and refile it it's not like we're dropping a building height and they're also coming for the old one it's nothing that's that that's a corner lot with the fence it's the number one fence VAR this most towns see anyway they privacy yeah no she all I know she has already noticed and published that's all right we'll talk about we'll carry your notice if we need to but we'll work through that okay thank you for bringing that up okay so any other comments or discussion items so our next public hearing will be Thursday May 28th 2024 7:30 p.m. right here um I'll entertain a motion to adjourn motion second motion second thanks everybody [Music] to shut down oh I got a penite a lot of when app done doesn't want to collect them anything that we're done with we should recycle and don't however this entire application we need because we're going to continue but an agenda or any stuff like that would you just please throw it away on the way out thank I want you iate it oh I forgot about a