e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e almost good live right good evening and welcome to to the Thursday March 14th 2024 uh working session of the school committee uh we've just returned from a tour of the building to look at different pieces of uh the proposed Hopkins school edition so uh public working session so we're going to be working here but we are on camera so that people at home can have the benefit of the questions and the discussion that we have here okay so we want to start with a with there pieces from the tour that anyone wants to start with questions related to that and then we can break off into some of the other topics that we have discussed just out of curiosity if the number of students coming in there already what four lunches four students how many lunches would you have to have in order to to feed students if the addition the addition changes are made yeah so I think right now it we can fit about 195 students in the calf so as soon as we go over 800 you're looking at adding another lunch block or shortening lunches um one of those two options so that means lunch starts earlier than 10:00 well well yeah that's where we decide right the first lunch right now is at 10:50 the um Last Lunch ends at 1:20 what time the bus come and school ends at 3:20 so we do have some about 10 minutes in between for cleanup in between so we could start you know you start crunching that down to maybe make that a little bit better um but that puts a lot more pressure on the kitchen staff to get those tables cleaned and get ready for the next weave a kids so not ideal either so student could end up eating lunch and hour yeah close yeah so a lot of learning time is lost when you have kids who are only thinking about what's coming for lunch they're not on task no when teachers have gotten really good about bringing snack time in but the granola bar only goes so far for that kid with the first lunch in the after having snack in the afternoon or the other way around both are are tough ideally you get three lunches or four quicker lunches I think you know 11 between 11: and 12:30 12:45 is is ideal So speaking of enrollment I'm going to bounce off the The Changing enrollment because I know that we've had a lot of discussions about enrollment a lot there's been discussions um in the community as well about birth rates um but one thing that I am curious about uh with regard to that and it has come up in the community is the changes in the enrollment um the capacity for this building and I wonder um if we could talk about that for just a couple of minutes sure I can start and then if you know there's anyone else who would like to chime in please do uh one of the things that we've done is uh Mr person was kind enough to bring the original drawings for the Hopkins school over to Central office and we took a look at it and some really interesting things happened I think on architectural drawings so when the building opened there were 24 general education classrooms and the architect says so let's take your 24 classrooms and multiply that by 25 students in the room and you'll get a capacity of 600 kids and we've never really been a district I don't think that put 25 students in a class classroom uh we shoot here for like 22 23 and so I think if you took your um 24 classrooms and you multiplied it by the 22 and A2 you come up with 540 students and so you know that over time we put on four modular so we got up to 28 classrooms and if we do 28 time 22.5 you have 630 students that you can accommodate and one of the thing that was kind of interesting I think is that when Perkins East did some numbers for us they had suggested that in this current as built uh condition of the school 628 might be just about right so that number of 630 is is really a good one currently we have 689 kids so one kid shy of 690 and so now you're kind of grappling with the difference between 630 and 690 and so what we've had to do is close classrooms that had been used and they're large classrooms but they were interior classrooms and we were using them for small group instruction um at one time they had been science labs and now those two interior classrooms have become grade five classrooms so we've gone from 24 then we had the four modular to 28 and now we have the interior classrooms that get us to 30 there really isn't another space in this building that I think you could use as a general education classroom but I think another thing that happens that people don't account for is that when this building was built we were a very different community and I think that there were a lot of different um if we think of our demography you know just different regulations that we had to adhere to so if we have students who are English speakers of other languages in our building now we've got to have small group spaces for our students to meet with their esel teacher and you can't simply say okay let's just randomly put six students in here they have to be kids who are um linguistically similar so how much English have they acquired ired when they're in that classroom together and we have loads of special education students now in the building we've always hovered around maybe 13 14% somewhere between 12 and 14% I suppose for our special education numbers and so if you're talking about 12% of 400 kids or 12% of almost 700 kids you can see the increase in numbers of students and that means that we need to have more small group spaces to educate those children and some of them AR even kids who are on educational plans they are just students who might need a little oomph in ela or reading or writing or mathematics and so we do a lot of small group instruction for them as well so the numbers do fluctuate um when we had U drummy rosain and Anderson Dr do some drawings for us in December of 2019 they did some beautiful colorcoded things so they could show us the areas that were too small um so for example the cafeteria undersized this Library undersized um but you know as they're doing that kind of work they don't necessarily say and here's another space for you to have small group and as you saw on the tour earlier things that have been closets things that have been offices have now been converted to small group instructional spaces I hope that's helpful so we had done a little just a quick graphic just to show what the classroom loads look like so at the 640 like the 6:30 that kind of sweet spot for the this building that's a 23 student classroom that's what that layout looks like um all the way on the end is the 83 classroom without any addition so now you're at you're at um 29 in that room so it starts to get really crowded and the proposed typical classroom at the 83 with um the addition and the renovation you're down to 21 so there's a little bit of flexibility build in there too so can I just add on go yes please um because I I I think and we talked about this a little bit at our last school committee meeting that part of this renovation and expansion is also to accommodate sixth grade classrooms and the purpose behind that is because we have overcrowding in the middle school so the middle school capacity is also just as important of a discussion as the capacity at Hopkins because the purpose of moving and shifting around the graves and the configurations of the schools is to accommodate um the overcrowding in this building but the overcrowding in the middle school as well y do you any of you want to add anything about the Middle School piece and how that's impacting um what would happen so I can can see in this building from what you've said we would be looking at potentially 29 kids to a classroom on top of that we that wouldn't alleviate some of the issues at the middle school right and we do have to remember one of the things you saw here tonight was an intensive classroom where there may only be four to eight students in the Intensive special needs classroom but they do need different stations for Learning and so it's a very large space so there's a lot of square footage but that square footage is occupied by maybe just as many adults as children in in that space the same thing is true at the middle school there's a very large expanse of space where we house the Intensive special needs population and so when you sometimes say well could what's the occupancy of the Middle School based on just square footage that can be very much misleading one of the interesting things that we've just done is we've said if the middle school has 39 general education classrooms and nine science labs that will get you to 48 classrooms and so if you were to put 24 students in each one of those which is a little high for us but we could put 24 students in there you'd have 1,84 students sort of at classroom capacity um and a very interesting thing happens in one of those um in the msba numbers if you go to the year 2026 the exact number for grades 6 7 and 8 is84 so I should have see 2026 is that Tipping Point that that's the place where where we have the the max right 1084 based on general education classrooms 1084 is the projection for enrollment but not only is it the like at math but you're also talking a higher class size than yeah students parents families are enjoying today and whether or not there's the tolerance for that even though that you're going at Max Capacity and and I do think like it's incumbent upon us to explain that because it is all about choices for the taxpayers in the district and if the choice is to have more students in a classroom then I think what we'd also need from the administration in terms of explanations is what impact does that have on the educational experience and the ability to service the students differently than the way they are today because I I I think those are nuances that sometimes get lost in just the size of the building so in looking at at the solution that we're discussing tonight compared to if we had to come up with another solution one solution I'm hearing is larger class sizes across the board uh the the other thing that has been discussed very lightly here and there would be potentially splitting the sixth grade since we'll have two three and four at Elmwood um educationally in operationally any thoughts that you want to share on what would happen if we had to do that versus the inefficiency I mean potentially if we left just the fifth grade here it would be an inefficient um use of this space it would be an inefficient use of this space for sure um and to pull some of our sixth graders out really does free up space in the middle school but then you run into issues of equity because the Middle School still has all of those spaces where grade six related arts take place this building wouldn't have those spaces and so you have some interesting options I mean you could do a a 50/50 split or you know leave two teams at the middle school and bring one team here but somewhere in a trimester you'd have to rotate the kids who are here through that Middle School um so I don't necessarily know that you're going to removing teachers classrooms I don't think it's physically possible for our custodians and maintenance people to do that work and so does that mean that a student gets a new teacher a third of the way through the year or twoth thirds of the way through the year it's it's helpful in terms of space it is not helpful in terms of academic programming yes they would all get the same related arts but we I think it's so disruptive to kids to be moved from one building to another building and from one teacher to another teacher at some point in the year I think it's important that the continued commity of disrupt them and it's their mind so just for clarity I'm not advocating particularly different solution but I think it's important to discuss but I think it's important for us to have that conversation because when we bring this forward at town meeting voters are going to want to know what what are the Alternatives and what are the downsides or the upsides or you know Sid sides of all that to start around decisions for the just star routine changing that adaptation time for the new routine so really that's that's all lost time education with all f is Tak the educational process and the learning into creating a new routine and I would say too that the most powerful tool for a teacher is the relationship they build with a student and in both of those scenarios whether it's 29 kids in a classroom or changing in a term that gets diminished it's it's that much harder to get to know 29 kids the way you need to to be successful and it's um hard to get to know kids for three months and then switch neither is ideal Beyond [Music] student family becomes familiar with the teacher becomes familiar with the administration and then all a sudden that's been is now an upheaval that's a whole the family another and time build trust relationship yeah I mean I think we said answer not are advocating for that but I think it's very important that those um consequences of the decision are articulated for people to understand because this isn't this isn't an issue of a nice to have right we need more space so either we're increasing classroom sizes splitting half a class between two buildings that are not directly next to each other like the high school and middle school so that's not an easy transition or we're looking at making the changes that we're proposing and so those those choices have to be presented with the pros and cons for each and and I you know I think all of us are seem to be in agreement on what the best academic experience would be but having that explanation be provided at a town meeting is for all the generations of people that live in town those that no longer have students and classrooms and aren't back in that thick of it and understanding and those that are and is that you have that their explanation I think that's what's most important to me is not like I don't think anyone's trying to hide the negative consequences of it but I think putting them out there clearly to see it becomes very difficult to make an argument for that option yes I think the the option hinted that but I think also that mix is leaveth grade alone which sounds like if we leaveth grade in this Builder by itself inefficient of space but um more importantly I think he said 20 26ish is BU that I head classroom capacity at the middle school so we wouldn't Buy in terms of time I could be delay a little bit doesn't seem like that from what you said 2026 is the time in place soon six 27 as for the middle school I I would also piggyback off of that that the the middle school at capacity but looking at the high school if we leave three grades in the the middle school as they are right now um that high school is going to I I would argue and I I'm not a professional but I would argue that that would put an unsafe number of kids in the high school if we don't have capacity to to move them I've been in those Halls um when there are kids running around the way it is right now I I can't imagine putting having it be um 1,800 kids there well and I think that's the same issue you run into in the Middle School um as we talked about if we're at 1100 students if you walk down a hallway during uh in between classes now it's as an adult it's difficult I don't know how the kids do it but um those hallways are pretty packed and I think we have the same or will have the same issue with lunches as well that we just talked about for the Hopkins school so that uh CA C is a little bigger at 275 I think occupancy in the Middle School uh cafeteria and that split between 1100 kids I can't do math on the top of my head but that's a probably adding a fifth laun chore and I think they timing is tighter too between lunches I don't know that I think they might be at 20 minutes now I'm not sure um so I don't know that we could even compact you know their lunches um or essentially they're getting off the bus and having lunch or having lunch and then getting on the bus to go home and I think just based on conversations we've had on time on learning with desie requirements I think adding time to a lunch period for the middle school would be problematic to continue to meet that just a comment on the toour you said you guys get to questions something struck me in to having TN in B is that almost every space that's not just classroom has been repurposed it's labeled as a storage facility and a classroom there's a piece of paper over that says it's someone's room um you know there's there's really no space left here I was I didn't really realize although you keep saying it but I haven't seen firsthand but I mean you really have to used all the spaces um that are available even the cafeteria teach soome well I think it's it's just sitting in this room here notable to look at this this entire wall that used to not be there um because we've had to put that up for classroom space in the library here I know the folks at home can't see that right now but it may pop up in some of the photos later that this wall here had to we took stuff out of the library to make classroom space I think that's challenging so I missed part of the tour but and I'm forgetting the last time we talked about the schematics of this building but is the library set to stay the same the only reason I'm asking is I I understand there's gorgeous vaults and ceilings in here but like there's room for another floor so I just wondered is it staying as it is it stays as it is um we did think about the possibility of putting of infilling this but the that is a difficult thing and a costly thing to do support being well and the foundations for that too so it's not just infilling it with you know the floor and that's it there's actually The Columns and the old steel that needs to go in and it needs to come into this operational building to be done so it was the gain of those few classrooms the cost of doing that the addition is a better solution than trying to build into this space essentially we would have to dig into the floor here to um you know the foundation wasn't meant to have the second floor in this area or we would at least have to engineer that to you would have to do then again this is not this space is not on the outside of the building where you can just pump poke a hole in and go in and out this is in the middle of this building which makes it very difficult to so this would have to be like a summer job that is an awful lot for a summer project so difficult uh would you say less cost effective as well I would say it's less cost effective nothing is impossible so it could be done but I think that from a cost standpoint doing that would be more expensive than building they just building for because you're already embarking on an addition anyway so adding that square footage to that addition is less expensive than coming in here and doing this kind of surgery in here to to do this and the phasing cost and everything nating asking if I missed it no no it's it's a good question because it's it's basically a volume that you could easily Envision saying well there could just be a floor here and there could be four four more classrooms but the ad would be interior classrooms too they would all trying to get away from this room is now comes to the library bre differ space the aesthetic of the space would change dramatically explanation makes that because if I was at home didn't know anything about process i' say all that space FL got four more questions for another 80 students uh what's the problem and so thank you for sharing what the problem know of sort of choices that you looked at options that You' considered um there's been a group I know that you've been meeting regularly making decisions with the espc 2 project the meetings were Then followed by public meetings with the espc committee so people were well aware of what we were all doing could you just take a moment and talk about some of the major design decisions you know whether it was considering this space or where does the cafeteria go or um you know what were some of the things significant decisions that you had to make in the commit how is the what is the cost benefit I think we haven't seen it the community hasn't seen it but I know been a lot of discussions around design yeah I think we can probably talk about why we chose to have the cafeteria on that end of the building and the gym on this end of the building but Danel let you talk about that because you have yeah we we um when we did the initial studies of this with the districtwide study Mall it Bob was really the lead of that and and the that original idea was that the addition should be where we ended up putting the addition and and that that's really driven by the site I mean the site is linear it's tight on both the North End South and on the East so there really isn't a lot of other places and it's good that it naturally does fit going out towards the West um that those two Carters can be driven out that way there were conversations about maybe tilting that addition a little bit or rotating it and the building's orientation from a solar perspective is not bad it's basically a north south orientated building which which is what we would do in the new building Elmwood is that too so that's that's good so leaving it the way having it go straight out was is perfectly fine from from that perspective which is good for sustainability and good for natural daylight in those classrooms back there um the one of the biggest decisions was where that original design had showed the new Caff and Kitchen in that addition and then a renovation of the gym the decision was made to flip that and that flip came about because because the gym really wants to be closer to the Athletics and the fields and out to the to the nature to get out from the that poor side of the building the C not landlocked like it is now it's basically landlock in the middle of the building so when they leave from there they've got to go through the corters out and into the and it's a better relationship and then the kitchen being where it is now there are um there's services and things coming in there that felt like that would be a place that we could take advantage of some of those Services coming in not change some of those things not rebuild a new kitchen totally and take advantage of that space and the larger in that gy space to make a new calf there it also allowed that stage since we're replacing the stage the stage that's there becomes a nice height for a dock for receiving so that's like a perfect kind of like everybody want wants a dock and I can tell you for many years I've said no many times to someone saying I really want a dock but this is like a it's a natural here so that was a really that's a that's a nice ad to be able to get that and that just kind of happened so that was a that's another piece that worked out really well so I think those were like the major decisions the biggest one being that flip that you originally we had envisioned it one way but when we started to really think about how this works what really it should be there was a change in the thought pattern to like we should approach everyone and say well think about maybe let's think about this instead let's think about not having the calf over there let's think about putting the gym over there and then I would say the interior space too with the classrooms um the curriculum really kind of helped uh shape that because of needing science classroom so designing those spaces to be able to hold those types of uh science stem and those types of things on top of gened classrooms yeah I mean every student takes General music and so if you look at the lower right and you look at those green kind of boxes you can see what's going to be done with our music spaces as well I mean now the our current music classroom is really know sort of too small to house fourth grade chorus or and so we're moving those kids out into the cafeteria or to the gymnasium um that's just their instructional space now because they've outgrown the original space the other thing I want to excuse me encourage um the public is to go to the website um to the Hopkin school and click on the link for the addition um from there you'll see presentations so from back in October is when they first uh presented the gym option that uh Dan spoke about but then it also started the presentation of the materials um the exterior materials the HVAC and the life cycle um analysis and then in December it got a little bit further into the design um started to look at really the the massing and and what it would look like and also started to touch on cost so you'll see starting from October those presentations are up on the website and it'll kind of walk you through these decisions um to your point that have been made but also have been uh presented to the public um by our our team that has been working for us and then I think the rest of your question is how are the decisions made so we have a working group um that meets every Wednesday Wednesday every Wednesday and um these are the types of things we talk about in that working group um aside from the working group um uh Mr CER and Mr lefave have both um set up times to meet with teachers to talk about what their needs would be in spaces and um you know get their General ideas of what they think the building should look like um kind of like we did with the Elwood school as well yeah there were specific forms with science teachers um special education teachers uh the different PE all the yeah even like the nurse you know yeah so any any sort of specialist and maybe some of the things you know we've talked about um keeping the servery on that end of the building because you're plumbing and all those things were already there but I it's interesting to me that sometimes we're looking and we say okay should we be buying um a door that has a sidelight or a door that doesn't have a sidelight and because the ones that are already in this building don't we chose cons consistency but it's also you know something that saves a little bit of money if if you don't have that um or when we're looking at you know furniture and fixtures and we say would we replace all of the furniture here or would we replace just some of theit uh I guess put new furniture into the new part of the building and so we've made those kinds of decisions as well so that you know instead of paying $800,000 for that you'd pay $500,000 for that and you know it's just a lot of being really cautious I think with the kinds of spending that we're doing can I ask you this came up during town meeting when we were talking about the new El school I'll be happy when we rename it so you could stop calling it that um but there were there were I was surprised as to how many improvements to security came in that building even just from only Built marathon and so I wondered if any security improvements for this building come with the renovation or if that's not part of nope secur there um one of the biggest things to resolve is the entry sequence right now you come into the main entrance you basically are in the building so you get buzzed in and you're in the that's that's unusual that you would be in the v you would leave the vestibule and the control person would be at a desk but you're already in the building and someone could theoretically just run off so that is going to be resolved so we're going to add a door into that main office from the vestibule so that can be controlled so like that man trap exists now so you when you B buzzed into that vestibule you will then be presented with a window to speak to anyone someone in the office and a door so that you go into the office and then you're into the school which is the way that it's more commonly done now so that's Marathon resolved Marathon has a similar setup so that's the and that's what's elw is going to have that too so that will be fixed here yeah and unusual today Not Unusual in 1990 no it was not unusual when it was built but is it's unusual for today are there saf security featur besides an extension of the security system that exists now into the addition because that's that will happen as well um and then compartmentalization will be better because right now if you if you think about the way the calf and the gym are now if you rent that out or someone's using that space they basically have access to your building so if you walk into the building and the way the doors are set up and the exiting you you can't when you get in to go into that gymnasium space these doors exit in towards the corridor so you're in the classroom l so with the new gym we're we've resolved that too so that when you're using the gym off hours that gym is compartmentalized and you cannot penetrate into the rest of the building from that point so those little things like trying to resolve some of these things that you would do in a building now we're trying to bring that here too so that you don't have some of these things that exist here in the new design and there'll be additional cameras in the new wing and things like that extension of that system into that new into the new Wing cameras and door contacts and fobs the whole all those things will come in but really what we what we like to do first is Lay is that passive those measures that are just about how the doors work and how the design is set up so that you're not relying on the electronics to you know those are like the Second Step once you can't resolve something with the passive measures so I want to Circle to a different topic if that's okay so in terms of looking at the cost I know that um there have been a lot of different suggestions that people have made what would the impact be of Shifting this out a little bit um in terms of the project of not doing it immediately of delaying it a little bit financially both educationally financially and and I think is that does that provide a savings to the taxpayer does it provide um much relief in terms of projects not overlapping with the tax impact I would say that although I can't see the future the um historically for my entire career every year Co project costs and construction costs escalate M um from anywhere from two to during Co 15 and a half% um generally estimators carry a 4% which is kind of historically the average so every year a project gets 4% more expensive and that's just because wage rates go up materials costs go up it just that's just the nature of it and that's what we would expect to see so a delay would if you said okay we'll do it in two years that's 4% compounded on those two years and that's just that's just any any index would tell you that the 4% is basically the number to carry the 15 15% um 15.5% during Co did that just continue to build up after that or did it go back down leveled back down to 4% what hasn't happened is it hasn't receded that's that's what I mean dropped down it didn't recede it actually we saw a dip right when Co started so it went down to like 2% y or less because people were there was no work and people were running around looking for then they were there was everything it cost a little less and then all of a sudden it started to build back up and then it went way up really really fast and a lot of communities got got in a pickle with it because suddenly their projects that were estimated at X were 15 10 12 15 20% more and you saw a bunch of communities going back to their to the voters saying we're you know we're 20 30 40 million over and we need to we need another override to get the project done so I did not it did this and then it now it has it's kind of back to 4% un do and I've only seen it do that once 2008 on the cost and sort of timing um topic are there costs associated with temporary accommodations because this is an active building while renovating and I guess the Cor if we delayed until after we pull the four grade out would that REM and a temporary cost because we have the whole building to flex to so I I think I'd have to say the way that the phasing is set up now I would say un it's not likely because the the contractor is feeling that or is looking at we originally thought this was going to happen and the CM is pretty much an agreement that you're going to do something called Summer Slammers in the inside of the building which means that the day the kids leave they're going to come in and they're going to hit it as hard as they can through the whole summer period and turn back over those pieces to the or those pieces will be already been rebuilt so the idea would be to build the addition and then you have that space to flex into and then during summer periods get into the renovation space and start to do that so moving a grade out won't change them building the addition it just means there' be more space um the disruption of the renovation space would still occur you'd still need what we're talking about doing is maybe using the multi-purpose room as a temporary cafeteria space you'd still need somewhere for that to happen so it's I don't think there's many like moving the kids out I mean always less people is better but really what happens unless it's zero people there's always there's always going to be a phasing cost in the component to it but we're not setting up temporary spaces to house anybody or setting up a temporary U kitchen area or anything like that at least we we're not proposing that now so there's not those additional costs on top of it where we would have modular in for kids to sit in or anything yeah you're going to have the typical cost you would assume you might have when you're doing a Pro that's on an occupied campus fencing safety precautions things to separate the contractors from the kids and the all the those pieces but and those would exist on any operational campus when you're doing a project are there different pieces that we could look at to reduce the cost at all any significant savings that could be appreciated at this point in the process without compromising um the space space that's needed um educationally calf wise as well as educational programming so by pieces do you mean like square footage of the building so well potentially if there's a piece of that but U materials um different rebates yeah what are the levers um the the biggest lever in any project is usually the square footage being built that's always the the biggest piece of it this project is um we did do a little I think I have a little slide that back this off those were for you then I had those I'm pretty sure I had one that talks about this that's the oh maybe I don't thought I did okay well if I don't I don't so the um this the biggest thing is is going to be square footage that's the most that's your biggest piece and then the renovation space probably follows that as its secondary thing renovation ad Renovations are always a little bit more complicated because it matter of how much money is being spent in the renovation versus the addition what are those breakdowns that's always a little bit harder to figure out we're going to get that to that level because I know that the community wants to understand better where those dollars are going um from a finishes we're basically following the Finish that's going on in in this building so we're not there's no more going into the new building there's not like there's so we're we're tile Wayne Scott like this building has now lenium flooring act ceilings it's really a very much language is the same throughout the two things from a square footage perspective we did had run this building versus what we are doing now and the mba's potential size the msba size building would be larger than this so if you were in the msba program and you went to them and said because the classrooms here are a little smaller so they they would that building would be 12 to 13 14,000 foot bigger than what we are ending up with so we've tried to keep the square footage down as best possible to keep the program to try to meet the program needs and not have any ex and any excess anywhere I don't know if there's anywhere you're really W without sacrificing something like there's no I don't I can't say there's anything in here that we would not make a sacrifice like saying well we're not going to do two art rooms we're going to have only one which doesn't really meet the program so you'd have to give up something from a programmatic standpoint in order to shrink the footprint and I would say we we we I think we did a pretty good job um value engineering out what all our initial wants and needs were right so we talked about doing floors through the whole through the whole building so we wouldd have a consistency as the floors um and you know so we ended up value engineering that um and some other other items like that um removing old technology out of the existing classrooms um uh repainting the classroom the the existing classrooms um so there was a lot of things that we would have liked to have been able to done do but understanding that we want to keep within a budget that feels large already um you mentioned the current standard for the size of the foser is bigger than what we have what we have at the end of the day um aing keep the the minimum viable um what wey Toom are we putting in adquate restroom facilities and some of the other spaces because I feel like we must now be short you are short [Music] yeah will we be at least um atod you know many yes so you you you will be at the current code so the current code is actually requires even more fixtures than the recent code so the code actually changed I think in December beginning of December beginning of December and it was a code that they just kind of gave us and said You shall now do this and with no usually they when they give you when you get a new code they give you a kind of a period where they say oh you know you have six months or eight months to and that was not a period they said you tomorrow morning you will do this and that new code has more fixtures in it so we are actually going into the existing bathrooms here and replacing the sinks CU now right now there are only two is it two sinks I think there's two sinks per bathroom or three and we have to we're going to add an extra so we're going to put a new deck in there because the sync requirement has went up dramatically um we theorize that it has been risen because of handwashing requirements during covid and they now are like well we should have a million sinks so now you will have lots of sinks um the new addition gets the bathrooms it needs and the design supports the 800 and the St the 800 students and the staff requirements that for those numbers so they're only worried about sinks not they added they added a lot of sinks that's what they added they already had you you might argue when you look at it they already had enough toilet they kind of had enough and I think what they did was they just they went a little overboard on the sinks so it's it's surprising actually how many they are now at asking for the calculations are so but that's what we're designed to so it will be have enough fixtures for 800 over 800 so new bathrooms for faculty as well as students in the new addition we're not adding bathrooms in the existing we are adding bathrooms okay because um one of the issues is there are not really enough facilities in the existing think so we are adding bathrooms in the existing we're adding two bathrooms on the second floor mhm near the art room near the art room because now there that there's just two staff over there and the nearest student bathrooms are in the middle core all the way down on the end that's where the student bathrooms are there's two bathrooms on each floor so we added two bathrooms so the students don't have to go all the way to the to the middle of the building yeah and we should say as part of the part of the renovation is um because the addition is the size that it is it triggered a code upgrade for the building that's why we've talked about fire alarm and uh sinks in the current bathrooms and things like that the other thing about the current building I think is important to handrails on the stairs right um the handrails on the stairs are part of the code upgrade but one of the things I think is is a good one to to know is that the the building currently is basically it's Max size so the building we're in from a code perspective as a single building is at the size size that it can be it cannot be bigger so therefore when people say like let's add a modular to it or let's add we cannot add more to this building from the code perspective this building is maxed out what do what do you mean by that I I guess understand so from the new edition is separated from this building by a firewall so that makes that new addition a second separate basically from a code perspective it is a separate building so you will have two buildings so you have this building and that building they're separated by a firewall separate structures and if something happens in one or the other those that other building is protected so if this building falls down during a fire that building is is raided and protected away from it same thing on the other side you can't just add to buildings just make them as big as you want this building has a certain size that it could be from a code perspective this one is maxed out so when someone says hey I can we just add another module or to it or no no that's the reason why we can't it is actually at its Max size currently just to make sure this is something heard before we are talking about eventually having the option to add modules to the addition coming over from El yep we can only do that because the addition will be Z building building so we couldn't I know we have a a lot size issue on thew let's say we turn theot into a space for we can't just tap it on no know they cannot be connected to this building they would have to be a separate thing well they couldn't be their own separate without adding like without the addition because we'd have to add becomes really complicated is that those if you're now it's a separate thing they they have no support so they would need bathrooms and all all those things to support it as a separate versus so they couldn't use any stuff in this building to support that okay that's interesting briefly on the cost of the because we are also changing a few things in the exterior we have Oh you mean the site the site yeah it's will be some modifications if you we have a site there is there's there are certainly modifications and I think I thought there was a site here oh there is so I was right about that one um so yeah there are there's um increase seing in the parking lot so the visitor that front parking lot is being revamped and reconfigured and added on to so that the loop works for A Car drop off better than it works now and there's more parking spaces in that front lot and the recess area basketball court play areas those all get reconfigured they're actually further back down because if you envision it the way it is now everything is underneath that addition so once the addition goes in all those things get moved back so so those are all being redone and resized to what this new population would need to support be supported and then the play field is right now a baseball field that would change into like a multi-purpose kind of you know just playing field and the lines are only there to kind of give you an idea of the size there's no real lines being put on it's just going to be an open field and there's a walking path and there's were there any cost LS I guess with how we do that was there any flexibility I know a tight space but the only real things that you you could well I mean again it it it's going to be loss of program so when you trade something it would be only do one playground or only don't do a basketball court or don't do a large don't do this recess area but then you lose that piece of program to support the what's going on in the school now so it it's there's no those things are sized appropriately for the intended student population and the parking lots as well they right now they're it's if you've been here during the day trying to find a parking spot it is you're parking on the loop or you're in the dirt or so they are maxed out on their parking too here and it gets rid of that weird pulling it it does a poor new parent a parent's first time pulling in here it's an adventure you can always tell the newbies when you're sitting in my office oh this is their first time about that has that changed in the past few years it seems different than been a it's been a couple years no it's been the same since I still that annoying hair pin turn it's Shar though yeah okay so sizewise if you guys can imagine the current parking lot ends right around here mhm so from the end of the current building over would be new parking well you can see the number of spaces up in the right existing is 87 going to 134 it's significant and do you think staff will mostly par [Music] this I think we'd be in a situation where staff could park depending on like what closer what entrance is closer so they could be parking in the front they may choose to park in the back if they're closer to that area a question about the modular classrooms uh just because this has come up as an additional cost that will incur that's not included in this project what would happen if we didn't move the modular classrooms to this building like what would that do with our longer term capacity issues would that create issues would the building be sufficient without it without moving those modular you would have four less classrooms yeah indeed but so four classrooms times the number of kids it's that's right now the 83 population is predicated on those being here at some point so when the building opens after the after this renovation there wouldn't be a squeeze because those kids aren't here yet but at some point so in order to avoid some of the crunches that we discussed at the beginning of this session we absolutely have to move those over is that yeah today's number is 689 yep so we're really about 114 kids off of that 803 that's not a lot of kids I mean given given how our enrollment has changed in how many classrooms just remind me because it for everybody's sake how many classrooms aside from modular are going in I know we've got c space and gym space and bathrooms and other things but how many classrooms are we adding in for capacity I think I can go back to the program for that one I mean there's 10 rooms but those 10 rooms are they're different one is an art room two a couple of are sped so it's from a pure classroom perspective I think four of those are are are spoken for so you're you're the other six are pure classroom but one of them is being outfitted as a science room so five gened classrooms five in one science but that doesn't count some of these other things happening in here right because there's some related Art Space there is let me go back to the program because I it has that number on science is your team so it it still is a genetic classroom right even though it's science that's part of so six someone will be in there all day right I'm sorry core need is 10 so plus those yep and just just a back up on the modulus for a second so we did price out um what it cost to move the modulars as compared to building for additional classrooms into this into the new space and the square footage numbers I think were higher than it's more expensive to build that space than it is to move mod yeah much more eloquent way of putting it a lot can't use uh I don't think it's that close I um it really is going to depend on as we massage the number for the addition but right now the rule of thumb is and the range of what new construction costs for four classrooms it's probably more than double to build the new classrooms versus moving the modular over and one of the keys is is you you own the modular right right M yeah without giving true numbers I'll just use based on you know what we have so if it was $4 million to build the marathon Edition um I think it was almost 2 million to move the modular over something like that it's uh 1.1 1.1 so 1.1 1.2 to move the modular is over and one of the reasons it's a little more expensive is because the Florida floor Alwood is not the same as the Florida floor here so there's a little bit of stretching little massaging I'm not sure I want to ask how you stretch those well they they're just pieces okay they're not they're they're little they're blocks like Legos yep yeah yeah but I think that that also addresses some concerns in the town like Center School is still not been e marked for anything that's not this committee or the administration's perview right but in being able to take anything from a building and being able to say we're using it I think it's important I agree and again I'm not asking questions CU I'm opposed to what's being presented forward I'm asking questions just to be looking under every Rock and making sure that what we're putting forward to the community is clear MH and I think moving them over was our intent when we built them so if you saw the modular down at Elmwood they look exactly like the modular that are here and that was for this purpose and we I do remember that discussion as we approved them so how they just a couple they were both 2020 2019 2020 I think they will put so four years other questions that people want to make sure that we have the opportunity to ask that we have this we do have two public forums that are going to come up in both in April so that will give an opportunity for members of the community to come out to ask their questions U they're not during April breade they are not are the for this April 3rd and April 29th correct right before time time meeting right which the the upside is that it gives people the opportunity to get their questions asked ahead of town meeting to make town meeting more efficient all right if there no more questions okay go ahead I think moving the sixth grade in to this building there's been discussion of some shifts in programing the education plan I know we're going to V the education plan but could you talk about that um because I know if that comes for additional space or additional um additional art even you see the med center spes that you lay but there were spes where you show us a in my mind related to a bit of an expansion of or the inclusion of this expanding expansion it feels to us people in the community it's hard to understand shs and why we're doing it so we you just talk a little bit about that what's driving the changes of the extra science classrooms or the St spaces um any of that that's really address music spaces in capacity sure I can talk a little bit about it and then you can jump in too um so one one of the things that I think is probably a current problem for you is know we know we have a size constraint in music um and our kids start with instrumental music when they get to grade five so grade six and grade five you know currently do have their own bands and orchestras and because when you first start everybody wants to try an instrument and then you know naturally there's attrition along the way um but what we want to make sure is that kids are able to take General music and also either band or orchestra or chorus um one of the things that Mr hay and Mr lefave who is a former band um director will tell us is that if you are not taking General music you're going to lose lose some of those skills like a steady beat and Rhythm and Dynamics and expression and all of those things that are important in making music so if you don't have that from a general music class when we put you into band or orchestra or chorus then you kind of struggle in that setting because there's a presupposition that you would have that that skill set so they have to develop them simultaneously um we at the middle school they have an engineering an engineering course we would love to get that in grade five as well um science Technology and Engineering those are all parts of the science framework in Massachusetts they are mcast tested subjects in grades five and grade eight and so we want to make sure that our kids have that engineering background to be able to farewell on that test and that's part of the reason why we're putting those spaces into this building for example um drama is a course that they offer to our sixth graders we would love to be able to offer that to our fifth graders as well and it's not necessarily you know putting them in you know a great big musical so they're doing the sound of music but um it it does give them that kind of opportunity for recitation and Poise and kind of building confidence as public speakers and that is also part of a language arts curriculum so while these feel like they're related arts and they're kind of nice to have um they do either connect to an absolute core discipline or um there's something that we're not doing as well by by our kids as we could right now um there is one art class that that we do here and at the middle school they do both a you know a visual visual art studio kind of an art and then also like a a media art and um that would come here as well one of the questions that Susan had asked about the gym when we were in there was can you re-explain uh how some of the related arts work so if we took library for example here today and we have 16 fifth grade class classrooms in 14 fourth grade um the library teacher could teach six periods a day 5 days a week and so if every one of those 30 classrooms visits that's it that's that's the capacity of her in this space and so if you get to a 301st classroom then you have to think about something else which is why you need the additional Art Space that um I think Dan was talking about earlier and I'd love for you to talk about the digital literacy and library and some of the things that um happen here now and will happen when we expand that program yeah well and I think too sixth grade is coming with a lot of these programs so you either have to be able to accommodate that or take it away right we have to provide unless if we don't take engineer if we don't have an engineering space then you're talking about taking not only not providing a fifth but then taking it away from six um so then because six is coming with all of these great opportunities you have the chance to expand that to fifth grade pretty easily because you have to make excuses for sixth grade anyway um so here in library now they students will um go through units on digital literacy research um you know traditional library reading time things like that and I see this as becoming you know adding in that computer science aspect um the new digital the new computer science digital literacy standards really tie well together so it sort of fits in nicely where now you're talking about fifth and sixth graders um getting more exposure to coding and programming which I think is a great thing so that's that's what you would see in here today as kids working on their computers doing doing research uh different you know internet digital literacy activities and I in the future would want to see them doing some of that programming as well which you could easily do in this space so we T earlier tonight saw the S classrooms going currently don't seeb T we don't see science classrooms sixth grade had um it sounds like should be should be more you wouldn't walk around and see science looking for right yes and there have been times in this building where you would have seen that you know when we had those labs still intact you know you'd have kids doing all kinds of botney things they would be doing um water erosion and they would have those kind of like inclass replicas set up so they could watch how water made its way through sand or but now I mean you'd have to do that in a general education classroom and you see that they're a little bit tight and they're not enormous classrooms and they've got Furniture in them so it does make Hands-On science much more challenging in this facility as it exists today wonder how much of building capacity and programing and meeting space for his like hands on SL become driven by state a lot yeah we were talking briefly about that ands for speci become more required classs for hands on yes classrooms for Esau so they're they're kind of really driving everybody to chop up their space we got new science standards in 2016 and an interesting thing that came with them were science practices and so they wanted kids behaving and doing like scientists and thinking like scientists and and and you need space you know to make that happen together yes so and and you know I mean even since the building was built there have been so many changes and you know the expectations I think in Massachusetts around teaching and learning uh I know I say it all the time about the Elwood project but when we were going through that process with the msba one of the things that they made us promise is that we would revise our science technology engineering curricula to fit the new building think that's something that Mr lebrat has a couple of years to work on a question it related to the Ed plan uh so in terms I the the building costs is One Piece operational cost that would be incurred um by some of the related arts moving around is that a let me see if I can phrase this clearly so is the operational cost that we would incur by adding the related arts roughly the same as meeting the enrollment increases so by that I mean those kids have to be someplace in a classro there has to be a certain number of teachers that have kids at one time there's move around is there a difference uh there is a little bit of a difference um there's you know naturally as you enroll more kids you are going to have to have more FTE so for example as we talk about when you get over 30 classes in music or art you have to hire more teachers because you know a teacher has contractual obligations and after 30 periods in a week that person is done um but we did sit down and take a look at some of those numbers into introduce drama digital art and Engineering to the fifth grade it would be a05 FTE in each of those areas so it's like a one and a half teachers to give our fifth grade is drama digital art and engineering and we're still figuring out the music pieces there will be more cost there but that's not sort of additional programming I think that's just more kids engaging in the program and just for clarity the music when we talking a couple minutes ago about having the general music at this for the kids at the same time as the instrumental and coral piece it that I don't think is true of the the sixth grade right now is it the sixth graders they have to choose between General music and performance music that I think that that is true and here in in this building if you choosing Orchestra or band you might have to leave leave like social studies or science in your general education classroom to go out and actually have that music experience and we're really trying to move away from that we don't think kids should be losing you know core academics for music a kid shouldn't have to make a choice I agree with that and I think that's particularly difficult for kids who have additional needs yes to to not be able to access the performance music it feels like an inherent inequity yes even before we've made any moves you you will remember that Mr CER had a 0.1 music teacher in your budget for this year you know so it's already creeping up a little bit and what we heard from Mr leabe too was what he does like about the fifth grade program is that kids still get General Music Plus The Ensemble if they sign up for it where at the middle school they're choosing between General music or The Ensemble thank you I'm not I'm not trying to be difficult in asking questions but I do want to make sure that we look at things and that the community is clear on choices that are being made I think too like when you come to the the winter and spring concert for Hopkins we filled the entire stands that in the high school gym so I know it means a lot to the Hopkins community those programs absolutely year you know back in 2010 it was it was really PR Val component of support to support I think the behind or cut band I I also think that our music department just as a little bit of a side note um is a source of Pride for the district the fact that we went through covid when things could have been very difficult on the performance-based groups and came out very strong on the other side I think speaks well to all of our musicians as a Qui aside the other day Mr hay emailed me to say do you remember 4 years ago we canceled that concert it was the first thing we cancelled was a concert here yeah one topic quickly touch onot people to [Music] why plan to app just in funding decisions and options sure um so one of the things about the msba and you know they it's it's broadcast on their website um but what they tell you in terms of order of priorities in funding projects across Massachusetts is that priorities shall be given to school projects needed in the Judgment of said board to replace or renovate a building which is structurally UN found or otherwise in a condition seriously jeopardizing the health and safety of school children where no alternative exists and it's really difficult to say that in this building that's only 20 plus years old that it's structurally un unsound or that kids would be unsafe here they're not we just have an enrollment issue um and so we could continue to submit year after year statement of interest to statements of interest to the msba but the likelihood this project being accepted is very very low and so in all of the years that you would be doing this you know the clock would continue to be ticking and as Dan colleag just explained to us if you're going up 2% 4% every single year as construction costs escalate you're not really doing yourself much good if we took simple math and we said okay this is a $48 million project the msba for us our our typical rate of reimbursement is about 25% % which is like $12 million how long at 4% would it take us to get to that 12 million and at what cost to kids in programs so it just doesn't really make sense for us to be looking for funding from the msba for this particular project and I'll let you talk about your HB um well one piece that um you know what um Dan collie had mentioned before is if we went into the msba project they would actually look to build more Square footage so that again would drive up the cost um so the other piece that the msba has is accelerated repair um where you could do boilers and things like that um in next year the application will open up for green um such as uh what we're looking at for HVAC so there is a possibility we could apply for some of what we're doing within the building however that piece of the SOI with the msba doesn't open until next year so I I did have a some backup for or some information about how this process does work so Ms the msba funding process is that you submit your statement of interest and then there's like a block of time and then you get invited to eligibility as a block of time and then you get invited to fusibility as a block block of time so the process is not a speedy kind of thing it's actually a multi-year multi-year kind of process and they get um about they what they say on their website is they get 100 to 125 sois a year and they because as we talked about earlier that spike in construction cost the number of projects being accepted now is around four or five a year so you need to like that's the percentage getting in of the 125 only five or five of them depending on the size of the building actually get in to the to the next step you're looking at potentially what I in your best case scenario you would be opening a building in 20131 2032 if you extrapolate this project out and you add the 4% per year and you upscale the size of the building to meet their requirements because they are going to look at this just like any other project they're going to take the space template and they're going to look at it and say okay what what what are we you know how are you meeting all of these requirements it's likely that one of the curses of it is that you now need to meet their requirements when you're doing a project on your own you have a lot more leeway to do what you need to do to meet your educational requirements versus their program requirements in this case that adds square footage to the building so if you're looking at that 2031 2032 time frame this becomes a 70 to 80 million project with msba so effectively if you are lucky enough to get in in a timely manner and then you design a building to their standards you will have spent the ex almost the same amount of money you're going to spend now or more to get that reimbursement at the end of the day and that's just a function of how long it takes for msba and process to go through all the different pieces and the requirements that they place in front of you and our current timeline is our best case scenario timeline if this is approved by the community at time meeting you're going to open a year before round one 2027 26 27 school year 27 school year so you would be that's one of the reasons why the modular aren't really connected to this because they're still needed Atwood the existing Elwood while the other Elwood is being completed for that next period and then when those students move over to the new building then those modules can come over here we will do the infrastructure for those as part of the um addition today though or yeah when all the pyth will be capped off at that spot and then the wall wall there'll be a removable piece of the building that can be popped out when that comes over pylons in the ground that it sits on as its foundation stuff like that and that's all included in our budget that piece is that piece is incl in the budget good the other thing the OPM had pointed out that is um that the msba can be fickle about having a town having two projects in the pipeline at the same time meaning they may decide that you cannot have Hopkins go in until Elwood is complete which would push you out even further my recollection when we were doing Marathon School U because we were submitting s sois for El what at the same time was that the msba requires us to rank priority in projects that is one of the reasons why they are very uh it's I can't say it's never happens but it it is they're trying to spread the money that they have across the whole state so to if if in somebody's case in a three or four year period you've got two or three projects going on there's all these other cities and towns that are looking for funding too so they do try to spread it around do they give any priority for communities For Whom the cost of a new building or whatnot would be more difficult um based on they only give um they well the the the the reimbursement rates change depending on the communities in the income levels of the community so I have clients who are up in the 80% range because of the of that community that they're in and some some really are like that there the they the base minimum there's some towns that are at the the lowest like the you know that's that's the base minimum they give there's like a kind of a number down that end too so the most I've ever seen is in the 80ish per 82 83% and then the effective rate on that is probably in the 50 to 60% so they pay about half and then you can get down until like the 20 where they pay like you know 10 or 15% effective rate and that's the other thing here that's about the msba that you know you know from going through Marathon you know from now going through Elwood that not every single thing that is going to be reimbursed right so you could design this and they could deny certain aspects of it and just decide that they're not going to reimburse on those things so that's another kind of dice role with msba is like these are just it's still just a guess like just it's still until they actually hand you a Project funding agreement you don't really know what that what that full reimbursement looks like just to for reminder for folks at home and here at the table what is the effective reimbursement rate at Elmwood or I think it's 35.5 is% and does that come down someone you factor in the things that are not um covered it does it prioritized by the town well there's there's a base rate and then you add to the base rate these other you know the adders which are like you know the Green Building points and then you get points for um taking care of your buildings maintenance points so there's there's those adders and then from that number they then start to chew away at it so you if you're effective your total rate is like 42.7 then they start to chip away at that which means there's some spaces that are ineligible there's caps so there's a cap on site work there's a cap on the building cost there's a cap on designers OPM con so there's all these caps that they put on everything and the Caps are not related to what they think you should spend they're just caps so the cap on the building construction cost at $550 a square foot is not what they think so they know a building costs more than $550 a square foot that cap is to try to again spread the money across everyone equally not just because if they reimbursed everybody at their square footage cost it'd be $ eight or $900 you'd only get two projects in every year or maybe you know you wouldn't see the same number of projects so what we see is like the math and the all those things usually end up kind of the same at the end of the day for depending on because they're they they have there's all those levers that they have to pull to get you to a rate where they feel comfortable so 35.5 ISU was where that ended up in rebates I know we got some decent rebates on the Elwood Elwood has some rebates what would you anticipate it would be rebates that we'd be eligible for for the massam we've already entered into for this project so that's a rebate that's that's assur assured um that can be anywhere in the $150 to $300,000 range depending on the parameters that end up at the end of the day and how that works out again it's with an ad Rena it's a little bit different because they have to figure out how they want to view this building versus a new building is very straightforward ad R is a little less so um and then the Ira rebate is out there the inflation reduction act but that one no one really knows exactly how that works I don't think it's been done yet in Massachusetts for anybody but the feeling is that you could see 15 to 20% of the total cost of the mechanical systems and now we're also understanding that people are saying you can throw in design costs and all these other things in there to try to raise that number in order to see a bigger number back from that so adds up so that could that is a more significant one usually the mass sa one's not of the two that's a could be a much larger number okay and the great news for us is our OPM is working with a community now that's finished a project figuring out Thea so we'll get more and more information as that kind of goes along for them too okay anybody else before we move on okay thank you so and then just for folks at home we are going to be uh voting on The Ed plan for this building next week so we then do have one other item on the agenda here um Miss Rock if you want to Yes um so we um the school committee had voted for the prequalification committee for Hopkins now that we have the construction management team on board we would like to add two members um from that team Ricky sugu and Kate star um would be part of the Commodore team to be added to the Hopkins prequalification committee thank you any questions on that there is a motion um printed in our agenda specifically if somebody feels like uh they would like to make a motion on that the the motion is that we're seeking here is a motion to update the Hopkins pre pre-qualification committee to include two construction management team members Ricky s SRU and Kate star to evaluate and qualify the Project's biders motion by Adam is there a second second by Susan all those in favor I it is unanimous um thank you for bringing this board um we we did run a little bit over so I want to thank everybody for hanging in there um on a later night for those that started very early uh and I would entertain a motion to adjourn motion by Lori second by Susan all those in favor I thank you very much thank you to H Cam and for all that are tuning in and I will see everybody next week at our regular school committee thanks