[Music] good evening Eileen can you please open up the meeting Township of how Zoning Board of adjustment Monday May 13th 2024 I hereby declare this meeting of the Howell Township zoning board to be open adequate notice hav been given pursuant to the New Jersey open public meeting act in the following manner first on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was mailed to the Asbury Park Press and the Star Ledger second on December 11th 2023 a copy of said notice was hand delivered to the clerk of the township of Howell faired on December 11th 2023 said notice was posted in the office of the zoning board and on the bulletin board in the Howell Township Municipal Building 4567 Route 9 Howell Township New Jersey in accordance with the fire prevention code and for your safety please be advised that this facility is designed with two emergency exits at the front and rear of the meeting room furthermore smoking is not permitted in the municipal building please take note that this meeting is being videotaped for possible future broadcast on how Township TV 77 this meeting is a Judicial proceeding any questions or comments must be limited to the issues of what the board May legally consider and reaching a decision and that deor appropriate to additional hearing must be maintained at all times thank you thank you Eileen can we have a roll call please Mr burillo here Mr caner here Mr Hughes here Mr Mertens here Mr Rosco is excused tonight and Mr Stant is will be coming late Mr Ryan is also excused miss scotson here and chairman seya here you have a quorum thank you will everybody please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with libery and justice for all thank you Andy can we have a swearing in of the professionals you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole Tru nothing but the truth I do Charles K Jennifer beam Sher spirro thank you sir approval of minutes regular meeting April 22nd 2024 eligible voters burillo Hughes Mertens aroso Stanton Ryan scotson and seya can I have a motion please motion Hughes second burillo roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Mr Martens yes Miss scotson yes and chairman say yes minutes approved thank you Eileen Eileen item six on the agenda vouchers are there any vouchers no vouchers tonight all right how about item seven correspondence do we have any I have one thing for correspondence application number ba 2211 Aaron peer and Y Yehuda Brown will be adjourned to a later date with notice Mr chair if I could just this application is a 2022 application and it has been taking up space on our agenda and then carrying at the 11th Hour um for years now my recommendation is that the board approved this adjournment but if they're not ready to go I think in July or whenever they come back then we should dismiss them and then they can reapply when they're actually ready to go because they're taking up space on an agenda that somebody else could have taken up so it's been so so when do we just dismiss this application I would recommend that the board Grant this adjournment and say this is it if you don't come ready to go the next time we're going to dismiss the application and then if he wants to come back they can reapply and start the process over again but what date do we recommend to give them I think they just asked Eileen indefinitely right to carry with re notice yes they asked for a date in June or July which it probably would more be more of a date in August so all right so let's do 31 August and if they're not ready at that point in time almost three years later we'll dismiss the application and we should I mean Andy I guess can you reach out to canpap and just let him know that that's the dision yeah I will communicate that Mr chairman all right great thank you so anyone that's here for the be case number ba 22-11 Pabon uh this application is going to be carried to August 31st and um with they're going to re notice they're going to Ren notice yes okay with re notice thank you okay case number ba 24-4 Nicholas Morocco this is a use construction of Swimming Pool and Patio and front yard on through lot application of Nicholas Morocco as applicant an owner seeking bulk variants approval to construct an inground swimming pool within the front yard area of an R2 Zone the property is a through lot with Frontage on both pton place and H road Mr chair sorry to interrupt we have sucus realy on first do we want to move that okay sorry it's up to you I just don't it's extension of time okay we're now do we need seven for that or we going to no that's up okay no we're good with six then okay casee number ba1 18-31 secutus realy LLC extension of time application of cutus realy LLC as owner and applicant seeking extension of time through January 11 2025 for the previous approved use variant bulk variance and preliminary and final major site plan on premises known as block 183 Lots 113.1 115 11601 11602 113 on Highway 3 4 good evening Mr chairman members of the board Vince howerin from fre on behalf of the applicant my client John cudas is here as is his engineer Walt Hopkin okay Andy we're good yes you can proceed okay do we want to swear in Mr suurus you come and the engineer Mr Hopkins first want to swear them both at same at the same time that'll be good yes you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth the help you got yes I do please State your names for the record John suus Walter Hopkin okay and Mr Hopkin if you're testifying as a professional engineer you should well probably put your credentials on the record sir sure I'm a uh have a Bachelor of Science from Drex University I'm a licensed engineer in the states of New Jersey New York Pennsylvania Delaware and Maryland I have had the the pleasure of testifying before you previously and surrounding communities great we'll accept your credentials thank you Mr chairman you're welcome well would you tell the board what the status of the application is and what the basis is of our request for an extension sure so um as the board looks a little different than we were in in 2020 uh received approval in 2021 January 11th 2021 um the approval uh had a time frame stipulated in it to get approvals uh it took us much longer than expected to get those Outside Agency approvals uh we did our best to uh update the board's professionals as as far as the status kind of as they came in we we forwarded them to the board I think we're in a position where we have all of our Outside Agency approvals uh I think we've made all plan revisions requested by your professionals and would just request an extension that we can act on those approvals and do the work great Jen how long it's up to I mean what are you asking well that's what I'm saying how long are you asking for because if the board recalls we had to we had to drag these guys here like you guys kept carrying carrying carrying you were a code issue we finally got you before us it took a very long time to get through the process this is a 2018 application and here we are in 2024 and we're still a 2021 approval and it's 24 and you're asking for more time so how long are you asking well you application was for the statutory toe request but I I mean but it's going to be retroactive right oh yeah so I I just this site has been a problem from the outset it was there was not it's not like you worked with us collaboratively or cooperatively you came in here after we told you come in or we're going to dismiss you with prejudice that's how you came before us because you kept carrying and you weren't the one that represented him Mike viell was the one that represented him so at the end of the day we dragged you in here almost against your will we went battled back and forth and you finally got an approval and here we are three years later and you're still not done so I don't know if you're saying to me that you have all your Outside Agency approvals done why do you need a year to to get construction started I I can't answer that Mr chairman I'm just the engineer mrot I want as much time as I can to do it properly but I want to start immediately I already started I cleaned up all of the 50ft buffers well cleaned all the containers are gone all the tents are gone the uh burm is up I closed Route 33 exit I removed all the containers from Route 33 all the trailer so that's phase two I believe phase one is the d replantation i been back and forth with the DP recommended tree whatever you want to call them arborus or whatever we cannot find the plantings that's a big deal that being said Toll Brothers held me up for the um hulking up to sewer in water and then I had a delay of maybe uh almost 13 or 14 months for one other do that I think Charlie you you know about that one where we had a small delay on that it was difficult to go proceed when I didn't have everything yeah so so I think what Jen is trying to reiterate from the board's perspective is right so the approval was in 2021 January 11th right you're allowed two years for the stat statutory uh uh timeline for the approval and then you're allowed three additional one-year extensions uh normally an applicant would come in for a one-year extension that would only take them through to January 1st of 2024 so we're already behind that they're here asking for two one-year extensions to get it through to January 11th of 2025 they've submitted some additional documents resolution compliance preliminarily I talked to Sher and I'll let her see if she has any concerns it looks like what they've submitted is like closing up all the Loose Ends I think the board's you know Jen's concern and the board's concern at the time was especially with some of the neighbors the neighbors let me just stop you the neighbor was it was four or five years ago he hasn't had an issue with water at all respectfully I just stopped so and the application arose from like Acres of woods being cleared without permits and millings being placed down and storm water and all this kind of stuff so you know I think from the board's perspective you know the extension only guarantees the site plan approval still being valid and they can perfect it what guarantees do we have from the board's perspective that all this stuff that was done without approvals and trees cleared and millings put down that it's going to be done in a timely manner same guarantee you had the first time that I'm going to do it I sold my business my business is gone that's what you wanted you ultimately wanted the garbage removed from the property that's gone now I want to perfect it I want to beautify the land make it a beautiful part I own the property I have no issue doing the work I just want the extension that's all I want some time to do it I have to find the plantings I can't make them or we can change them if we can I don't know if that's possible if we can I think you talked to my consultant Rick aell you would come to the property and Walker with us if I'm speaking on line that I think you said that Rick's uh I did see Rick on another site um and he mentioned he was working with you but he said you got would reach out to me so I did not reach out to you to make an appointment I thought you guys had already set it up I definitely come there show us what we can and can't do if we can find these somewhere else I don't mind it so I I do think though it also has to go through D because that part of the plan is you know is approved by them you're you would be a big part of that though if you approve that but other than that I want to hook up my sewer and water immediately I want to do Route 33 immediately and proceed John yes oh I'm sorry not my uh my zone officer it's up um I would uh agree with Jen um you know let's get this thing moving are we moving in the right direction from what I can see I mean there's been some movement on the property uh if they're ready to go then I don't see what the hold up well a two a two single year oneye extensions brings us to January 11 2025 they're going to be entitled to one more do we just want to go out to that and end it or I think you should just do one and if they're not done they have to come back and explain why because this has been dragging on forever okay we're good so uh what's the pleasure of the board on the extension okay well that'll it's a two it's two one years that brings us to a January 11 2025 okay do we have a motion we have a motion we have a motion okay I'll all right we have a motion in a second this is to extend the till 202 to January 11 2025 extension of time for suus real te that works for you sir thank you wait we're not done e two one your extensions to January 2025 roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes Miss scotson yes and chairman say yes okay we got it [Applause] night okay we're back to case number ba24 -04 I think I did link n times this is Nicholas Morocco use construction of Swimming Pool and Patio in front yard on through lot application of Nicholas Morocco as applicant and owner seeking bulk variants approval to construct an inground swimming pool within the front yard area of the R2 Zone the property is a through lot with Frontage on both pton place and Hall Road the variant plan provided by the applicant depicts a proposed inground swimming pool with Associated equipment and P patio in the H front h Road front yard area on premises known as block 16510 lot 3.0 to 66 pton Place expiration July 2nd 20124 who do we have in front of us uh Nicholas Morocco sir and Kimberly J Francesco are will you both be testified we married we were both on okay the applications we both on that so I'll okay you want to just sorry we want to swear and if you sit those pris things those are mic you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you guys I do I do and then please State your names for the record and spell your lasts sure uh first name Nicholas last name Morocco M ACO uh Kimberly Jan Francesco g i a n f r a n c e s c o it's good thing we asked just saying it's a lot of letters okay so you're here sir you have the professionals they have reviewed your plans um Charlie oh here okay yeah so uh the property is in a subdiv division off of how Road it's a through lot so it has technical Frontage on two rights uh right aways um on how road to the rear so it's technically a front yard but it's a practical rear uh the front yard of the dwelling is on uh pton Place uh the applicant filed a plot plan permit um and is seeking variance approval to construct a pool in the technical front uh it's technically a front yard but it's a practical rear uh there's a patio surrounding that um I think we also had some questions regarding some of the additional infrastructure that has been existing there I think there's already a patio at the back of the structure and we questioned uh looking at Aerials it looked like there might be an additional um Standalone uh like shade canopy structure the applicant subsequently submitted some pictures um speaking with uh Mr agar you know before the meeting he indicated he didn't have anything in his record for permits for that so I would just say if the board is going to act on this application in an affirmative manner we also Grant the approval for the shade canopy as an accessory structure in the front yard uh as well um really I think it complies with all bulk requirements as are required for pools as far as the setback to sidewalks or you know the perimeter sidewalk around the pool and everything like that we're really just here because the uniqueness of the lot it's a through lot so it's a through lot that's correct okay got it Jen I agree and I think we have repeatedly put comments in our annual report about Corner lots and through Lots about these very issues and how they should we should consider the governing body changing the requirements because while technically it's a front it's their backyard so um I I don't have any issues associated with um allowing them to put in a pool with the associated fencing because it is that backyard so and I don't think it's egregious in terms of the size of it and I agree with Charlie that's compliant with all the bulk standards so you know they're here because their lot is unique that's all thank you okay board members any questions no okay do we want to open this Stu to public okay can we have a motion open to public motion to open public we got a motion do we have a second we got a second IA we're opening to public on this particular appc which is ba2 2404 the board will now be open to the public if you have comment please come up uh state your name and your address okay we don't see anybody coming up motion to close we got a motion to close we have a second second we're closed e all in favor I I the board is now closed to the public thank you okay what's the pleasure of the board Mr chairman I'd like to make a motion to approve okay do we have a second second we got a second Eileen Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes good luck it looks beautiful thank you Mr Hughes yes Mr merens yes and this is probably the quickest application approval since I've been on the zoning board appreciate it M Miss goson yes and Mr SE before you put your vote on the AR I just want a couple comments just to make sure there is part of the approval that they're going to have to get any building permit approvals as far as like fence around the pool make sure it's compliant with the swimming pool code um you know the shade canopy has to be as part of it as well because any retro actor permits as may be required um any back wash it' be either like a cartridge system or be directed towards the public RightWay not onto neighboring properties drainage pattern same thing to the right away not on to neighboring properties um and then I just had one more so construction access I'd recommend that it be from pemon place and not from how Road just because how road is pretty heavily trafficked and that any curb and sidewalk that may become damaged just be replaced um and then obviously uh the construction actually just revegetated um those just be conditions of the approval sir can you uh comply with that yes yes okay great so in that case all of that will be on the record in the resolution and I say yes I vote Yes and H have a good time app a good night have a good night good luck all right thank you take care crazy the links do we need five before this oh yeah I made the links and then I updated it we're gonna take a eile we're GNA take 10 I'm going to reach out to Mr Stant and see if we can get a seventh okay okay the board will now take a 10-minute break and reconvene at 7:35 thank you okay Eileen we're ready to start the board will now reconvene thank you up in front of the board is case number ba-19 restoration Family Worship it's a conditional use variance preliminary and final major site plan and bulk variance relief description application of restoration family worship as applicant and owner seeking conditional use variants and preliminary and final major site plan approval with bulk variants relief to remove the existing 20 2100t one-story dwelling the existing parking lot and driveway entrances on lot six they are also proposing to construct a three-story 6,586 ft church with basement an expanded parking area storm Warner management Basin conveyance system and Associated site improvements on premises known as blocks 77 Lots 3.04 and six church and Kent roads expiration May 31 2024 Mr Alfieri good evening Mr chair members of the board salvator alfery clear giobi alfery and Jacobs on behalf of the applicant um uh we've been I guess our most recent submission was April 29th of 2024 we've been working with the board Professionals in an effort to address as many technical issues that were raised during the course of this application process which going on for some time now um we're at the point now where we think we have the best plan we could present to the board it does require variance relief that we'll get into obviously um during the course of the testimony we have four witnesses that we're going to be presenting also I uh because the lot is undersized we did uh Buy sell letters back um last year to the adjacent Property Owners um two of them never responded and the third responded no no interest in sell selling or buying so I'm going to submit these to Andy so at least you have them for your for the record do you set the sign okay thank you sir the board secretary is going to sign off on them so Mr Alfieri yes sir you know we have six sitting board members tonight um does the applicant wish to proceed when they're entitled to have seven yes the um I did discuss it with Pastor Glenn and and and their many of their parishioners are here they would like to proceed tonight and we'll see how far we can get and how it goes and I'm hopefully conclude it tonight um if not we'll get as far as we can are we're going to hear from Pastor Glenn tonight only if you want to I would like to hear from Pastor Glenn tonight okay we'll introduce him um let we'll let Brian Murphy our engineer Orient the board and get through all the engineering and then we can bring Pastor Glenn up sir thank you sir I got to make sure you you're all right coming up right he's all right good all right so we're going to request that Mr Murphy be sworn in please do you swear the testimony of give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to help you back I do please state your name for the record spell your L Brian Murphy M py 1856 Route 9 Tom's River uh principal at FW Associates I'm a licensed professional engineer in state of New Jersey I've been before this board and roughly 100 other boards throughout the state uh over the court course of my career graduated where uh NJIT okay we accept your credentials thank you sir thank you and Mr Murphy um your office prepared the plans that have been submitted in support of the application and you've been involved since the Inception is that correct I have okay um there's an exhibit up on the board that I guess is the aerial do you want to orient the board as to where this property is located and also can you give a little history of of this property and the use sure uh so this is a 2 six Acre Site uh this the what you're looking at is Google Earth aerial map of the site the site is indicated in red in the middle of the site uh that road that's along the South Side uh that is Church Road uh for a little history Church Road is named after this church uh bethl Church um it's roughly 120 years old uh this area to the west of the church is all a cemetery uh the cemetery actually comes right up to the rway uh currently uh obviously it's an old Cemetery probably before this road was wasn't much more than a path um to the east side you have uh Kent Road and this is the Gard School in the back of the Walmart um you have to the north is a single family house to the West as you can see the single family house to the West is is is kind of way Northwest of the site that there's a wetland Corridor that comes down in this area uh so that that's why this area is still completely wooded and then obviously you have the cemetery that expands over to the adjacent lot um as well uh currently uh the applicant is uh conducting Church uh in the uh building roughly in the middle of the site uh we before the board previously uh for in 2004 for another site over on K Road uh that site was lost um and you know someone else owns that that property now uh we came in in 20 2019 on this site to add bathrooms to to the annex um and those were constructed uh back then um so and the building that you see to the north uh is a single family residence that's the pastor's home uh it's basically going to act as directory and we're going to wind up combining these Lots into one lot uh so it's going to be one complete site um can you go to the next slide please uh this is a color rendering of the the plan that was submitted to the board uh we're going to have access we're going to get rid of the existing accesses that that are there now right now you come in off of Kent Road and go out onto Church Road right by this intersection it's It's Not Great by any means um so we're going to have a two-way access roughly in the middle of the site and then a one-way in uh at the drive at the current driveway location and that'll come in basically you know give you access into the site the fire department requested that that we provide a emergency access still at the end of this out to Church Road so that that's why that's there uh at the fire department's uh request um the new building is going to be kind of at the larger width of the property um and basically oriented kind of towards the roadway uh and out very close and adjacent to the uh existing house um the existing shed uh that's on the property and there's some uh other trash structures and so forth along this West West area of the boundary that's all within the buffer technical buffer area uh that's all going to be removed and replanted um so we're we're and the existing uh parking lot currently is substantially in that buffer area as well uh to the residential lots of the West uh so that'll be removed as well so the only thing that's going to remain in the buffer area is there's a walkway uh in the back of the new building that's just emergency ESS uh and there's going to be a pad for two rooc cans uh because that really don't gener doesn't generate much uh trash with with this use um is there going to be a traffic engineer that's also yes yes abolutely good okay Brian can I just interject so your plans there's zero reference in your plans to that pad where the shed and those structures are loated there's no reference that that's being removed in your plans at all okay well we'll add that and that's my testimony that we're going to remove those and then I would recommend that you work with Sherie because there's no Landscaping proposed in that area either certainly uh the the new building coverage uh 20% is permitted we're going to be at 99.1% so a little less than half uh the impervious coverage 50% is permitted and we're going to be at 36.7% so again well under what's required um the church will hold 318 uh seats um if you go to the next exhibit please before you do sure so I don't believe any m s I don't think any of these are marked right so we we may want to at least because you the aerial the first exhibit was an aerial exhibit right so that's a18 correct but I don't think what go back one we stopped my notes showed we was stopped at a19 last time I was given the list of exhibits I don't know if that's been updated there's a20 which are architectural floor plans and elevations and that's the last one okay so then the Buy cell letter should be a21 yep and then this plan Brian could you identify the plan you were just discussing sure it is let's get the sheet number sheet four four site plan uh it's basically just color rendering of the site plan that was submitted to the board that would be a22 then that's 22 okay there is an a77 which is a site plan rendering consisting of one sheet yeah I think that we updated it so this should be a new one so 22 replaces 17 yes and then 23 is that is we didn't get to 23 yet the 23 would be the new architectural uh elevation and floor plan well that it was a20 they marked if that's the new ones it was dated 426 the architectural plans under a20 so that's right so that can stay a20 yes that's fine okay Brian and then what would be then there's a color rendering of of the building as well and that a going to break all right so let's we'll do that when he comes up just so you could in case you have more okay so we're going back now to a22 right uh one more to to the that's a22 that's up there and go one more the second page of this sorry back one sorry and there should be a second page of this there we go can we go back to the parking did you talk about the parking the traffic engineer is going to talk about the parking the number of spaces and how they're designed I can talk about that sure so you want to talk about the five tandem spaces sure I I'll get to the parking and the access and and everything else okay I just wanted to go through the floor plan in each oror and the hours our operation exactly what we're doing here uh so the first floor is compos is we going back yeah sorry yes has that been marked and if not we should we need to Mark yes that that was that was a20 yeah okay go ahead I'm sorry so we're looking at a20 go ahead architectural floor plans and elevations yeah that's a20 uh the the architect's going to talk about the the architecture of the building but I just wanted to go what what we're doing in on each floor and then the hours of operation just so it's on the record and everyone knows exactly what's going to be happening uh uh within the building and on the site uh so the first floor is the main sanctuary that's the upper left um and the pastures office then obviously some restrooms uh there as well uh the second floor uh which is to the right uh much of this is open down to the main sanctuary area and then there's a mezzanine for the choir and additional seating um but there's also uh the Sunday School office the youth office and the sound Engineers office is also there and obvious see that the the uh vide tech and and sound uh Studio as well uh the third floor which is the there we go the the third floor uh is basically for the baptisms um these are different than may may what you may be used to baptisms are are more of an adolescent to adult so it's 12 years and up typically uh and I'll go over when those occur um and there's also the security office and additional staff offices um for the church functions on that floor as well uh in the basement level which is your bottom right right there uh which is on the bottom right uh there's a the Sunday School classrooms there's a warming kitchen and that's not for cooking it's basically maybe a microwave so that you know you can get a bottle ready for a baby or something during services and and warm up something it's it's we're not looking to to have a chef here um and you know that they do do coffee and donuts and so forth uh before church as well uh the multi-purpose room is is just that uh during Sunday school sometimes the kids will be out of the classroom into the into one room uh for service and then also you know that they have uh prayer groups and so forth during the week and I'll go over the hours of those um that that would also use this multi-purpose room uh and then we also have the the food pantry uh as well um down on that level also um the hours are operation so that the church has one service on Sunday and it's from 9:30 to noon uh we have youth groups women's groups and bible study uh they're typically on Tuesday and Thursday and they go 7:30 to 9:00 p.m. um you know we'd like the flexibility obviously to change the the day but we wouldn't change the hour any later than 9:00 so it' be 7:30 to 9:00 um the the rectory obviously is is the pastor's house uh the food bank it would only be on Saturday am's um and that's not every Saturday it's it's occasional uh the baptisms uh only occur on Saturdays and it's typically once every three months you know so it's it's not all that common um but it does occur obviously uh outdoor events uh on the first day of uh of uh football Sunday uh they typically have a a tailgate uh get together for for the uh congregants uh it's basically an hour hour and a half after Mass you know everyone just kind of gets together it's you know meet and greet kind of kind of thing uh currently the number of congregants is roughly 100 people 150 people uh as I indicated the Lots will be Consolidated uh sewer and water the the uh new church will be completely serviced by public sewer and water that's that's readily available on the site uh the existing smaller church that already has se water to it uh the house is currently on septic and well uh so we we we could connect that to sewer if the if the board would rather that Charlie so and just to add to that so I think uh it's the engineering Department's uh recommendation that the dwelling be required to connect to Public Water and Sewer okay that's fine can we do that yeah okay okay that's fine Brian can you go back to the tailgate where exactly do you anticipate that happening that's actually in the parking lot so basically it's just that it's like uh you know you just got go out in the parking lot you know you pop your trunk get your chair out and everyone just kind of congregates for for for an hour hour and a half so I'm going to go back to your testimony about the trash sure so you have a warming kitchen you have these events all of these things generate trash which probably is more than a regular garbage pil worth so I I'm concerned about the lack of refu and recycling because this is not a house this is a you know so if someone has a baptism and they're having a little thing and the multi-purpose room even if the warming kitchen is just there to warm things up people are bringing things those things require to be thrown out and so I don't think a pale is going to cut it I we can go to two or three pales they they operate apparently out of out of where they're at obviously at a much smaller scale well that's my point but you know it so they it's not like that they don't know how their their functions operate so right but what I don't want to have happen is the garbage PA's full stuff is stacked next to the garbage pail which is fully visible from Kent Road and Church Street and Church Road and it becomes litter blowing Here There and Everywhere things running down the road you know I get the the the not wanting to put an enclosure CU quite honestly I don't know where you would put it on the site but I do not think one Garbage Pail and one recycling paale is going to be okay where exactly would these pales be stored so we'll do four four pales and and two recyclables and where would they be put it's right in in the can you go back to the site plan again sorry there's a sidewalk that runs along the back of the building and there's a pad right in the back so it's right off that back sidewalk so that's where is that big that's where it's located I mean it's going to have to get bigger right how many days a week is uh there's pickup uh as probably once a week okay if they needed more than that obviously they would schedule that but I can't see it be more more than once a week because it would only the main events would only happen on the weekend typically so it' be sufficient so and is it private huler picks up the trash and recycling and they come into the site to do that or correct okay they come in and pick up so we're not they're not going to just be left like out on the right away on the Frontage there's no Kent Road obviously it's it's not conducive to that so we would request should the board Act and the affirmative that the plans be revised to show a a larger pad and I want that pad screened like with a fence or something so that the the cans go in that area and they're contained within that area so that it doesn't wind up all over the place five six cans you said four plus right yeah so okay uh everything will will be accessible as far as access I kind of went through it already but it's going to be 2A access roughly in middle of the site that's directly across from the Gard school entrance so it lines up with that entrance uh the other entrance is is where the current driveway is so that would be one way in and we have basically two-way out and as I indicated we have the fire department uh emergency connection down by uh Church Road um Brian before you move off of that can you just talk about because the rectory is still going to have a driveway from C so and that still connects into the rest of the parking area yes how is that going to function during Services before and after are there any kind of Provisions that can be put in so that's not operating as like a full service in andout driveway well we're we're treating it as a one way in at that point so so it's going to be improved to to a roadway section okay up up to the where where the the the parking lot comes so it'll be an 18 foot one way in which is more than enough for a one way in okay and then I'll go into the parking in a moment but and they'll be there'll be proper signage do not enter and all that we we'll need the traffic engineer to uh to explain it all to us and then the last thing just before you move off of that so there's an emergency access from Church Road right and that's as required and requested from the Fire official cor so and but there's like a little unique shaped bulb at the end of that yeah um is there any way we can add some additional striping fire lane striping just so that's not becoming like an overflow impromptu parking lot short yeah we can hatch that okay absolutely you can continue thanks just write you're taking not Brian so on Kent Road uh it it's required to have a 30 feet from Center Center Center uh from Center Line there you go um so we're providing that but we're doing it as an easement uh just because obviously this the the sites are already uh encumbered by uh the odd shape and and the tightness of uh between the buffers and and the cemetery and existing buildings um in the OD shape of the property so we're providing an easement along Kent Road to provide to provide that full 30 we're also providing sidewalk and curb along Kent Road as well um all the drainage runs down Kent Road and then down uh uh Church Road uh along the gutter line nothing's coming into the site uh for Church Road it's not feasible that to to give any property only because that as I indicated this cemetery plots are actually right up against the the current RightWay and the the existing church is only 14t off the the RightWay as the Coptic Church gave us a RightWay and that's how you got the third lane coming for the right hand turn onto uh yep yeah exactly okay so I'm going to bring the sidewalk around uh that that bend and up to the the sidewalk that goes into the church the old church let's say um but it's not feasible to extend it any further because there there are Cemetary plots right there but you can Cross church and get onto the sidewalk absolutely that's there or on the Kent side so they go walk around to Walmart and stuff like that exctly okay great yeah you can go either direction Jan we're going to improve the uh sidewalks I I agree and then the applicant would just have to contribute in the fund for the Frontage that they're not providing the sidewalk along well he says bringing it around but okay I got it well I mean technically he's required to do it the extent of both of his Frontage so he's not doing it for his whole Frontage where the cemetery is to pay for the balance are we good with that Brian sure thank you with regard to parking we're proposing 63 stalls uh 55 are in the main church parking lot uh that you see in the darker gray and then we have two in the garage and then we're going to stack six out in that backout area and that's only for staff parking it's not going to be uh people coming in it's it's only going to be uh staff parking parking that area so them being stacked isn't an issue at that point uh they'll coordinate that amongst themselves to be able to get in and out uh we have two handicap stalls up front uh closest to the building uh they're it's fully accessible into the building from there um within we're required 112 uh stalls technically and that's including everything happening at the same time which is not what's happening uh so at the full Congregation of uh 318 seats we we need 80 80 parking stalls so and Brian the traffic engineer is going to talk about how those stack parking spaces and how that functions and operates during services and things like that okay I mean I I I would be remiss if I didn't give you a heads up that I have significant issue with those especially the two because you cannot get out if the other four parking spaces are full no so I I I'm not a huge fan of Tandem parking in general and this configuration is not when me over I it's only it's only because it's staff if it obviously regardless like let's say a staff person in the middle of service gets a call it's there's an emergency and they're in one of those two parking spaces they can't get out and so I just think that you're significantly underp parked to begin with and this is just trying to get as many parking spaces as you can but I don't think that those parking spaces are realistic so I know John is here and I know he's listening to what I'm saying but those two spots I think think I just think you guys need to get rid of them okay and I'll just say for the board record so in our review letter we didn't count them as parking spaces being provided we counted only the 55 parking spaces in the actual balance of the site for that same reason because I don't think our ordinance technically allows stack parking spaces there kind of devoid of saying anything about it um can we improve it angle parking versus stack I I mean I don't I don't think that's really going to give you much benefit there it's it's a residential driveway that's Brian what you how wide did you say the driveway was 18 18 ft so I mean you know put in and angle parking space isn't going to give you still what the aisle width you need to be able to kind of pull in and out of that and angle parking is really only for like one way so you know you're still having to back out to the right away so I mean it's going to come down to what's your Mr Ray let's hear your operational testimony and how that's going to function and how they're going to operate it and how frequently is it happen it's not 247 it's during the services so yeah uh I already went over the trash as far as lighting uh the lighting complies with the ordinance uh the lights will will go down at 9:30 p.m. uh during the week um you know obviously after those 9:00 uh uh prayer sessions in Sunday school um and they'll be shielded from uh from the residential side of the property um again the storm order will be privately owned and maintained um with regard to the waivers uh we have a 30 foot uh circulation aisle required we have 25 provided uh a 25t drive aisle and we have 24 provided again the fire department had no issue with with with the drive AIS widths um so I would ask for for that waiver to be granted and it's it's typical to have a 20 24 foot aisle as well um no parking or loading within the 50 Foot buffer uh this exists uh only up in this area technically the that church that's across the street to the South that's still a residential zone so we still have to have technically a residential buffer to that zone even though it's a church so that's along that south end so it's it's a it's a waiver that we're looking for there um the 50- foot buffer between proposed uses again that that's that sidewalk uh that's back here uh behind the building and and the trash cans uh Street trees every 40 to 60 ft uh we'll provide that along Kent Road um and we'll provide it for a portion of uh Church Road but obviously where the cemetery is we can't do that because the plots are there um the parking stalls uh 19 ft is depth is required we have 18 um uh I would ask that there that we provide uh bumper blocks uh up by the uh by the old church uh rather than and ball ballards um just for those couple stalls there I'm just there's a reason that the ordinance requires ballards and the bumper blocks do not stop a car from hitting a structure which has happened here in town multiple times the reason that that requirement is in the ordinance is to prevent that so that I would not recommend that the board grant that relief I mean if you guys remember the car went right through the stewards and almost took out like five people so and then we and it went right over the curb blocks to get in there so and then we also had the physician that got crushed correct so the ballards are there specifically because we've had events here I understand that it's probably not the most aesthetic situation but safety Trump's Aesthetics so I I would say that I would not support relief of that that the BS go in so and I just want to add Brian so there's there's no direct parking immediately abutting the old church right no so that the comment think that was to that that may be an old comment from the prior iterations of plan of you've had parking like literally but so I would take no exception to that not being provided with the current LA because there's no parking immediately abing the church yeah what they had previously it was like right against the old church yeah so I don't see a need for the bers to be provided um I also before you move forward I also the the trash pad is one thing that's in the buffer but your access and the sidewalk out to church is also in the the residential buffer because it's two residentially zoned property which the property across Church Road is and you show it on your plans actually yeah that that across Church Road where the church is that correct so the the emergency access and the sidewalk is also in the buffer correct okay y the um on page 10 uh of the tnm letter dated May May 10th I think I addressed a lot of the comments and and the technical comments I all agree uh with with all the the the comments in the in the tnm letter um I already went through the sidewalks uh item page 10 item 26 is regarding EV parking so we we'll provide the required EV parking on the site so that that'll be an additional uh two evv EV stalls uh that'll be required um page 12 item 36 uh we did get the review from the fire and as indicated they they wanted the connection uh to the South and they wanted fire lane striping and and the typical fire comments but that that was the main comment in the uh fire letter so we'll we'll comply with with their letter uh the CME letter uh May 7th 2024 item was 1 a and 1B were in the waivers that I indicated uh the rest of the letter I have no problem addressing um the avakian letter uh May 7th 2024 I've addressed kind of the the engineering related uh comments but obviously the traffic engineer and architect and planner still have to talk to some of the other comments comments in in the letter uh the fire letter as I indicated I agree with uh the farm advisory letter had no comment uh the environmental commission letter uh their only comment was to provide the EV stalls which we which we're providing uh we have soil erosion approval and um that's uh that's my testimony great Charlie we're good with stor Water Management yeah um the prior iteration of the plans they were pretty much good to go there's some minor stuff that just needs to tweaked with the calculation but it's all stuff I'm confident we can do as condition of the approval thank you Charlie thank you thank youy Pastor you can either sit here or stand there whatever is best for you I understand okay Hey sir look to your left first you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the TR so help you that please state your name for the record spell your last Pastor Glen Wilson l last name w i LS o n and Pastor what what's your affiliation with the church I I am the senior pastor and how long have you been affiliated with 30 years um um and you heard Mr uh Mr uh Murphy described the church as being over 100 years old and the church name of the road was after this you're familiar with all that yes sir and that's accurate it's accurate and in the next five years it's going to be named after me now um if one of the things that our professionals is particularly our traffic experts going to get into when he comes up is the fact that if you take every individual component of the multiple uses that are on the site and added up the parking requirement the parking is a significant number but but because you have everything happening at one time and people are on site at one time can you describe how that all operates like on a Sunday primarily that's your Peak okay so we currently have three three meetings a week Sunday mornings uh from from 9 we we just made a shorter uh from 9: to 11: uh on Tuesday nights we have our Bible study and that takes place from 7 to 9: and on Thursday night we have our prayer service and uh that takes place from 7:30 to 9:00 as well and and everything happens all all at once we don't have different campus everything is taking place at the same time so for example on the Sunday morning you're saying now it's 9 to 11: N 9 to 11 um uh let's first talk about there is an area where where you can warm food or serve food that's done before service so so every morning every Sunday morning before Services uh we have like a fellowship time when we get together we drink coffee we eat donuts and that that takes place before for services and there's no food prep in that area there's no food prep uh everything is brought there uh the the only thing that we make there is coffee and donuts and you don't make the donut you bring the No No we we actually well I wish I I wish we could okay so then with the you have in this building you have area for the for the Sunday school for the kids and all sorts of other functions all the people are on site at the same time same time and so they when they parents are in the church for the services the children are in the basement are in the basement okay um so the number of parking spaces that we're proposing for the site you're comfortable with accommodate your use yes absolutely um the other question we had was the Baptist Baptist Bap how do you say it baptistry baptistry which is on the third floor on the third floor we're in My Religion we're used to babies being baptized on a Sunday with a bunch of people coming Church chur that's not what you're doing there no no we we we we don't dunk infants what what we do is we we baptize uh children mainly mainly when when they become teenagers uh that's when we baptize and our our baptism should be quarterly but but uh lately we've been having a may maybe once a year is our baptisms and is that when is that done during as it relates to the other activities that would be usually done on on a Saturday afternoon right so not during the peak Sunday no no that's usually baptism is usually done on Saturday afternoon and then Brian described the outdoor activity um that tailgate party right um can you just explain what happens there so yeah so every uh first Sunday of football and lately it's been very sad it's been very sad because all the teams that get together they're all a bunch of losers so so uh uh our church is very heavy on football so so we use theate party as a means to reach out to our community we invite our friends they all come in and basically what we do each Booth prepares a different kind of food and we go around and and uh you know share share our food at one with the other and that's basically what tailgate party is and that's one time a year one time a year and no other outdoor activity no we have we have no other outdoor activity um you heard the comment about the U garbage and the need for additional garbage facilities and enclosing it in the fence you're okay with that absolutely um and then did you have any input on how that tandem if and you may not know the answer to this so don't guess but the tandem parking that was being discussed were you familiar with that no no I don't have a clue what that is okay yeah um and then the existing church or uh the building that's all the way the older building all the way on on Church uhuh uh we talked about you you weren't going to make any improvements to that except that you did have intentions to replace the window yeah those those windows came with the building and they're pretty bad so we do want to improve the the Aesthetics of the building to to to somewhat match the new building so the windows are a must okay but other than that you're not making any changes not we we want to preserve that building uh I have I I have a lot of families from how that grew up in that church and they very often come to the church asking me do I know do I have do I have a registry for the graves which I don't but they walk in the building and they they they sort of Reminisce because they grew up in that particular building so we want to preserve that building uh for the generations of these families that grew up in that building now when that new If This Were approved in the new church was is built what would that the old church be used for uh I'm going to give that to our youth ministry we have a very vibrant youth ministry so I'm going to turn that over to them so that they can uh do what they do and when what day of the week or frequency of that activity okay so currently our our youth meets once a month on Fridays so uh my my youth pastors are here so once I turn over the building to them they should be able to meet uh once a week every Friday and don't youall even think about asking for a salary okay um I I had no other questions of Pastor Glenn Mr jff yes uh Pastor Wilson yes sir you know welcome thank you sir you know my concern is I've seen so much growth with the Wawa the Walmart and the heavy traffic that's coming down Kent Road you know and I would just ask that when we talk to your traffic engineer and work with the professionals we do something to slow that traffic down so none of our patrons at the church are In Harm's Way can we do that absolutely thank you sir yes sir does anyone have any questions for pastor yes I think you mentioned it already but um the classrooms when are they going to be utilized classrooms are utilized simultaneously with our morning service and and what do they utilize for the classrooms yes to teach uh children of different ages Sunday school Sunday Sunday school Sunday school okay um that's my only question right now okay Glen Rich good I have a quick question so Pastor um something that I know other churches have implemented um in the past including my own um are do you currently have any staff that helps with traffic things like that okay AB absolutely I have a great security team and they they manage the the uh uh uh uh parking lot on Sunday morning uh I I you know I don't know if I'm free to say that uh currently we're no longer meeting here on Sunday mornings cuz we we have we have somewhat out grown this building so on Sunday morning we're meeting in Lakewood at the Methodist Church temporarily but when we were here we had we had uh our security team helping people cross the the road and they do a fantastic job great perfect thank you you're quite welcome actually Pastor I did have another question um the hall I think that's on the third floor yes sir with the Baptist tree um what else would that be used for anything else any Gatherings parties birday you know any any Fellowship activities within the church we will do it up there okay is that going to be rented out to nonp parishioners or non what was that currently currently we don't plan to use that as a rental facility so you mean that's a possibility no not not not at the current you're going to get in trouble with my elders yeah no but uh currently we we do not have any plans we have not discussed any plans to to rent any part of our facility so if that were to change then they would wind up having to come back to modify their approval to allow for that and there would be more detailed information that would be necessary at that time and the multi-purpose room downstairs in the basement is that would also be used for parties or the the multi-purpose uh in the basement sometimes uh children don't go to the classrooms on Sunday so they they have a large Gathering and that's a reason for that multi-purpose that that's all children's ministry down there that's all children Ministry yes sir okay thank you Pastor thank you Mr chair we we have a couple questions over here oh okay um I just have to for clarification when you first stated that you have three meetings per week is that the service the Bible study and the prayer service yes so it's not three services on Sunday it's just one service on Sunday just one service on Sunday okay so the three is Sunday Tuesday Thursday yes okay um I think that's all I had but you had a question right yeah so um the hall space so's there's no intent right now to rent it do you um is there any intent like someone has a wedding at the church to use that space for like the Gathering thereafter for like a reception the reason why I I hesitate because uh currently currently we we have never done that we we have a hall now uh in our Annex Building and that has never be been used for any so uh I hate to say never that's never going to happen but that that has not been discussed I I to use that space as a rental facility or for uh weddings okay reason I asked the question you you know like that's you might have more visitors on those type of events you might have outside vendors you know DJs lighting videographers and things like that for those type of events so you know for the parking it just brings that into question especially um with what's being proposed doesn't necessarily comply with what the ordinance requirements are and obviously we'll get to the traffic engineer CU When we do the parking calculation we do the totality of everything in the floor plan right so not all theace PES are functioning 100% at the exact same time but at least for the CH Church person I think there's 318 seats our ordinance requirements is like one per four seats so it's like 80 80 some odd spaces you know they're only at 55 in the actual parking area so um I think we need to just maybe if there's any intent to have weddings and things like that we need to maybe talk about that a little bit further and how that might impact parking so Mr chair as Jen indicated earlier if they're going to ever have rentals for weddings or anything else we would agree we' come back so we can give you operational details how it's going to park how it's going to operate because we're not prepared to do that they've never discussed it so got it it's all good so and then two more questions um do you have any arrangements or agreements with any the neighboring property owners for like parking shared parking services or anything like that yes sir we currently have uh a a written agreement with the G School across the street we've been using their parking space now for I I want to say about 10 years and and they use our parking space as well whenever they have uh so we we have that friendly agreement for for about 10 years now is there like a a current like time frame on when it may expire like or no imp perpetuity kind of thing yeah it is it's kind of it's It's kind of open forever 9 10 11 12 13 17 18 so I just want to give the board some additional Clarity so there's anywhere from say 30 to 40 parking spaces in the guarded across the school right the daycare is probably not operating on a Sunday morning when they're having services so when we get to the traffic engineering and how this functions with another site I just want to give that board that context um the last thing thing I will just ask a question about is I think there's a space on the architecture plan for a food pantry is that are you operating where people come and get okay free meals and how often and how many people come for those kind of things so this this came about during covid during covid uh our church was chosen as a facility uh to to to to give food so the food pantry uh actually uh came about uh uh uh during that period of time that that we received a lot of goods from the state and we were feeding our community uh every Saturday I believe that has not been functioning uh after covid everything sort of went back to to normal but but we do want to have on our facility a a pantry because every now and then we do get families that come and knock on our doors looking for food so we want to keep that pantry staffed uh in case we need to serve in that manner and that pantry do you you give them food to take home not not to Ser serve no mainly it's all Cann canned foods uh uh canned goods to take home so is there any organized scenario where you know on a Friday afternoon the food pantry is open and individuals can come and the reason I asked this because because I work in Neptune and I next to fulfill and during the holidays the the cars are backed up to the point where it has blocked off the entirety of Route 66 so understanding how that's going to function is important because it could be impactful to you don't have a lot of parking on site and then the to if it bleeds out onto Kent Road it could be problematic that's the only concern I would have so uh our facility has not been used MTN meet need to need use our facility as a satellite facility during covid M but that operation has not been moved to Freehold so what what what whatever Goods we have now are things that empty in left at our facility but our facility has not been been used uh as a feeding facility if another emergency should come about uh we we we are more than willing to serve and if we have to get advice on on how to better serve we're more than willing to do so but currently we're not we are we are not uh operating at that magnitude and then the last question you guys have like a worship band services and architect will talk about like if there's any treatment just for sound and things just because there's residential you know and stuff like that to the rear he'll talk about that there yeah keep in mind that that band has been playing in this old building uh with no insulation and we have never had an issue with the neighbors okay so I believe the new building will will improve that is that only during the Sunday service yes Sunday so 9: to 11 in the morning yes cool that's all I have Pastor Wilson thank you so much thank you sir appreciate it thank you and all I ask is that you guys give us the uh opportunity to keep serving amen have had in the last 30 years thank you very much thanks Pastor thank you we're calling our architect the architect first okay you why you want to hear traffic traffic I think architecture could be pretty quick yeah it's going be F Rick you're being sworn in where the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth that help you go I do state your name for the record spell your L sure it's Richard tokarski spelled t o k a r ski I'm with the firm of tari mement Architects located in Wall New Jersey and your licensed architect state of New Jersey yeah I'm a licensed architect in the state of New Jersey I've owned and operated my uh own firm for the last 24 years I'm a graduate of the NJIT School of Architecture we accept your credentials thank you okay and um and a20 is the architectural plans that um you you you prepared and submitted there's a colored rendering I think that's before that right so and and you could describe that generally but before you do that there are technical comments raised within the plannner report primarily from jannifer that um she wants some additional revisions to this you've reviewed that and okay with complying as a condition of approval yes I do and I know she's talking specifically about the rear elevation which was left rather blank um we kind of maybe misread the misinterpreted the ordinance in terms of visible facades because it was facing the cemetery in a tree line and buried we figured it wasn't too visible so we didn't spend too much money back there but we can definitely address it yeah so I mean I don't mean to cut you off or to hamper your testimony in any way but I feel like thank you for coming because your plans are far and away a welcome relief from what we had seen with with respect to this application prior um we do require treatment around all four facades now I'm not looking to Brank the bank I understand this is a church so I think if you would just agree to work with my office on those blank sections and we can come up with something that would kind of Meet the intent of what we're trying to accomplish but not be crazy and and in terms of expense I think we could come up with um something that would satisfy the intent of the ordinance you'd still require the waiver because technically you require like bump outs and fenestrations which I am not intending to require but just something along some of those blank facades that may help to break up like the massing yeah I'd be happy to work with your office in the town to come up with something acceptable so I mean Mr chair unless you guys have specific architectural questions I think the architecture that has been proposed here is if I don't know if you remember what was proposed with the initial application but this is definitely um very much welcome it it shows a lot of care has been given and um there's minor little things that we need to work out so I just have one question then Jen is the uh the windows are going to be replaced on the old building right they're going to look similar to what's here or are we going I would tend to doubt it so so you know how are we going to blend that in so that it I mean I don't know that they're going to marry each other I think they're kind of compliment each other compliment compliment each other there different there going to be appropriately stylistic to that architecture of that building very good I mean that building is very old and you know 100 plus years old right so yeah hard to match that exactly right exactly modern a modern storefront would not look necessarily appropriate on this building but we'll make sure it's aesthetically pleasing okay anybody have any the only other thing I guess he is the height and the steeple so let's let's talk about that we need to go back thank you so can you describe the height of the building the steeple um what kind of relief we need right so um the height of the building from the ground level to the actual roof level is 42 feet um the reason being that we do have three stories they're communal spaces and at an early stage of design it's very hard for an architect to say okay how deep is the structure um we realized that what was presented uh previous viously didn't really leave enough room for Mechanicals and structure we do have rather large open rooms where they're communal rooms so they have large spans which creates more depth in the structure we didn't want to paint ourselves into a corner where we couldn't build the building and have to come back for a height variant so we left ourselves a little bit of ample room so that we we're aiming for was basically 10-ft ceilings which for a large space is kind of modest we left 3 and 1/2 ft of for structural depth heating an air conditioning the drop ceiling for each level and the top of the roof um behind this parit that you see here would be 42 feet we did a 30-in powerit to help screen any rooftop units that are up there so we wouldn't have to see rooftop units and screening kind of made a more harmonious exterior um and that parit is not usable space it's just to Shield the rooftop units right so you wouldn't see it um the other thing I wanted to address is this piece in the middle is it's more of a modern architecture this is a modern interpretation of what a steeple is um there's yep so basically this is um a double height space through here letting light into the interior um the upper area does not have any uh working floor space it's really an architectural element like that of what a steeple does is it draws your focus to the entry and the front of the building what that height um the the peak of the steeple is at 50 feet and we'll defer to the board on whether um you want that lower to match the ceiling we what what's the steeple on the cop tip we're trying to figure that out I mean it's definitely higher than 40t because the what the parit at 40 feet right plus or minus yeah so I mean this isn't engineering documents that I'm looking at near map it's a third party aerial Pro they give oblique and it can kind of approximate they've got these like arched parit walls and stuff like that they're like anywhere 38 to 40 ft That's not including the Dome steep you know higher well and and those type of amenities if you remember even from like Christ Church on Oakland Road they're exempt from the height requirements so I would suggest that you know I mean the top of the parit even though it's not the the ceiling height you know to mass that does count towards the height and I know Justin is here and is going to give testimony with respect because the height is in excess of what's permitted and would require a d variance for the height so I know he's here to to discuss the conditions as well as the conditional use criteria as well as the height variant so but that I mean it's an unusual steeple it's not something that we typically see but I'll go with it and so at the end of the day um you know we do EX out those those architectural amenities especially for houses of worship so I would say just to the top of the parad thank you J board members for the architect one the one thing I just before you run off are are you going to propose any kind of sign or Cross or any kind of like something on that steeple and the reason I'm asking is that if you are I would perhaps do it now as opposed to do it later because I think it's an easier path for you to do it now and if that's something that you are thinking about perhaps asking the board for it and then committing to work with our office my office and Charlie's office if the board asks in the affirmative to come up with something of the appropriate size and scale but I think what would generally happen it probably is bigger and higher than we would typically allow so you would need relief for the signage um so that's why I'm bringing that up otherwise if you wait then you might wind up back here that's appreciated do you know the answer to the question um we would not be attaching any kind of cross element to it um the symbolic cross is actually embedded into the architecture on the steeple there's an abstract cross kind of built into the architecture so that you know we're leaving that as the you know the architecture signage and the steeple um this is not a traditional Church in the sense of the white you know white steeple Church on a hill with a fence are a community-based church they're very you know they have a lot of community outreach and it was the intent of the pastor to create a building that isn't stereotypical church that welcomes the community and functions and operates you know within the community so okay and then as far signage if well they're saying they're not going to propose it you're not going to have any signage at all um we may need a you know a small sign that would be you know comply with the ordinance there is a sign okay the road yeah there's there's an existing sign up up near the intersection right to remain okay and that'll be it yeah perfect yeah perfect okay the only question I have for the architect and we talked about the the U worship band and things like that so like is there any special Provisions for like acoustic treatment in the inside of the structure anything like that yeah internally we're going to need acoustical engineering design done for the interior those are usually sound absor the panel when you have a live worship band you can't have hard surface inside so a lot of those materials will absorb sound uh the other thing is you know over the last couple years the energy codes have really pushed the insulation values in buildings like up through the roof and the walls are very you know thick with insulation um it's going to have a dual Paine insulated glass so it'll be light years ahead of what's there on the site now with no complaints and it will acoustically contain almost all the sound in internally so compared to the 100-year-old structure it's going to be a drastic improvement okay thank you thanks any other questions we're good M before the witness leaves Mr alfery did we this was is this a23 no that's part of a20 it was the red it's part of a20 okay just so we're clear okay okay thank you Mr carski thank you John Ray John do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth to God I do please state your name for the record and spell your Lines John Ray Rea a licensed professional engineer with McDon and Ray Associates 1431 Lakewood Road Manasquan New Jersey and John we're seeking to have you qualified as a traffic expert I know you've testified everywhere but just briefly place your credentials on the record please uh I'm a licensed professional engineer my specialty is traffic engineering I can now say I've been in the traffic engineering field for 50 years January 24 was when I first started so uh 94 what did I say 74 74 yeah unfort unfortunately 74 so I I have an under undergraduate degree in civil engineering from NJIT well accept your credentials Mr R thank you John and I counted carus for living so John you did a traffic report study some time ago um that was submitted in support of the application and I know you've since updated your counts um can you describe for the board what you did previously what you've done since and then give the board your conclusions we're talking about just traffic and site circulation for now and then we can talk about parking sure uh well I have been involved with the project since 2020 and as the board knows uh the project has evolved into what's being presented tonight uh originally I I believe I was looking at a plan that had it was a smaller main sanctuary of about 175 seats I have simply updated my traffic study to include the uh new Sanctuary area of 318 seats uh I updated the traffic counts we we actually just did updated Sunday morning traffic counts uh Sunday May 5th just last week and we updated I I updated the analysis and basically what I assumed was that the church would grow as Pastor Glenn is indicated right now they typically get between 100 to 150 people at a typical Sunday service they typically generate between 40 and 50 cars under the current situation of course the new plan is going to provide for some growth which hopefully will happen uh what I basically utilized in order to do my traffic projections I looked at the howl Township ordinance requirement of one parking space for every four seats and I assumed that the entire sanctuary of 318 seats would be filled on a Sunday morning service and that would generate a need for 80 parking spaces so I assumed 80 part 80 cars would be exiting the site during the Sunday morning peak hour and as Pastor Glenn indicated uh the church does have an agreement with the daycare center across the street I don't believe it's the Goddard school anymore uh but it is still a daycare center they have 32 parking spaces across the street and so what I assumed was that proximately 65 cars would exit from the main parking lot on the church side of Kent Road the other 15 cars would exit from the uh Daycare Center parking lot on the other side of Kent Road and I know the board has heard trafficing engineering testimony before I projected the traffic volumes out to a design year of 2027 with a finding that the exiting movements to Kent Road from both the daycare center exit and from the church exit and they're lined up opposite each other would do so on at level of service B which is good level of service during the Sunday morning peak hour I also analyzed the intersection of Church Road and Kent Road that's a very busy intersection as everybody well knows there's a very heavy right turn movement from the eastbound Church Road on to southbound Kent Road a lot of people are heading down toward the Walmart into the traffic signal at Lanes Mills Road and I analyze that intersection as well and that will operate at level of service C during the morning uh peak hour when the church is experiencing its maximum parking and traffic so at the end of the day I've updated my analysis to uh conform with what's being presented to the board tonight the increase size of the sanctuary the updated traffic counts and I can report that the levels of service which relate to the delay that motorists will experience exiting the church parking lot to Kent Road and exiting Church Road to the Kent Road intersection will operate within acceptable traffic engineering parameters I also did look at the parking and uh I've discussed this with Mr Murphy and I think we're willing to give up the two tandem parking spaces that seem to be causing some concern we understand what that concern is we can give those two tandem parking spaces up but I also think I heard Mr Murphy indicate that we would be installing two EV electric vehicle charging spaces and technically because we get credit for two spaces for every one EV space we install we still have 65 parking spaces okay and we have 32 across the street at the daycare center so the parking that we do have in the event of a large event or you know even during a typical Sunday morning service when all 318 seats are occupied we're going to have 97 parking spaces we believe we're only going to need 80 so we do have adequate parking and okay but and and the technical reading of the ordinance with all the component parking counts even result in a higher demand yes but can you explain why that should not be the standard we use because the the ordinance requires the parking to be calculated cumul ly with everything that's going on in the church happening uh at once and as Pastor Glenn indicated that's not the case clearly the Peak parking will occur during the Sunday morning Services that's that's when we need the maximum amount of parking uh and the other uses within the church won't be won't be used at that point in time during the Sunday morning services but yes we technically do need that relief and the um the 18 18 foot wide one-way driveway to the north um that's operates properly since it's only one way it's one it's going to be oneway entrance only uh I have no issue with the 18 ft that's a typical width for a oneway road that's uh operating without two-way traffic just one-way entrance only uh so I believe that's acceptable okay that's all we have Mr Ray Mr chair Mr Ray so and ress Ingress egress Ingress Kent egress church now we're moving it to the center of the property corre all right so the right hand turn coming on the egress side back out on to Kent Road you know the concern is you know they're flying over there right yes so so what I will say is uh from a traffic perspective what they have now is uh certainly a better situation than what currently exists there right now it's a one-way driveway on Kent Road out on to Church Road so you've got that's existing existing yeah so it's like people flying down Kent Road and then making the right turn on to church you know if someone's coming out of the driveway there now you know if they're going really fast they might not see that person so that access on Church Road is being completely eliminated it's only emergency purposes for fir Tru they're moving the entrance on Kent Road even further away from the intersection so you've got a little bit more separation from the intersection so I think that improves it uh my concern is just still that residential driveway I think with signage uh what I'm most concerned about is um I don't know if John if the site rent you have the site Runing yeah so between the residential the rectory driveway and then the two two uh full movement Drive drive way you've got the Bay of parking spaces you know if there's a backup at the site driveway you know letting out of services then does someone try to go to the opposite way and then come out of the residential driveway and so do not enter signage there we can post do not enter signs and and one way arrows on the pavement indicating that it's an entrance only along with the uh do not enter cor correct so and then this came up on another uh household worship application we had recently with that one was pedestrian access from the neighborhood across the street this one is a little bit different because they're kind of relying on the commercial property across the street to kind of help with their parking deficit there's not really any crosswalks or can we put the mtcd signage in place we could certainly it's it's a zoning board application we could require them to put like a landing pad on the other side of the street and some pedestrian Crossing signage at the Crossing a you know strip across walk and then just some advanced warning signage I think that would be prudent especially I've heard a lot of comments about car flying down Kent Road um you know Sunday mornings might not be you know Monday Friday peak hour morning evening but you know anything we can do to improve pedestrian safety I think is a good thing I was anticipating that uh question and uh yes we can install The Pedestrian crossing signs a crosswalk and the advanced warning signs in accordance with the uh the mutcd is the manual on uniform traffic control devices we can do that excellent and John I think the um I don't know what's respectful if it's if it's Pastor Wilson or Pastor Glenn um I think he indicated that you do have an arrangement with the police department right in the event that you have people parking across the street to help safely cross the individuals from the daycare parking to the to this site is that correct yes and that's why I brought pastor Pastor Glenn back up can you you did mention you have private security but can you elaborate on what that means it's not a how Police Department I have a retired state trooper Harry Cook and and he runs my my entire traffic situation they do not allow left turns out of that uh Church Road exit uh well that's going to be closed off I think the concern is in the event that you have a higher volume Day At Your Service than your parking lot can accommodate and individuals have to park across Kent Road in the daycare parking which I 100% % agree that in the evenings and then on a Sunday the daycare center is not operating but I'm not going to implicate myself but I will say that I have witnessed from my car people flying down Kent Road um and I would just be concerned that you know if you have a family with young children that are trying to cross from the east side of Kent to the west side of Kent but that's what I think Mr I had indicated with the crosswalk and the advanc warning sign so it's like if you press the button the sign is going to in advance of the crosswalk right John that'll flash or what have you I just didn't understand if the security was designed to not only deal with the car traffic but the pedestrian traffic coming to the facility from the other side of Kent Road it's for both right pedestrian but we would agree if the board were to Grant the approval that we will contact with the police department we'll coordinate with them and our private security and make sure if they want to supplement it in any way we have no problem with it right Pastor yeah and you know and just foot foot track foot Traffic Safety as well right correct talking about we've heard a similar testimony on the other house of worship like the Easter you know Christmas Eve that kind of stuff that's higher frequency or or attendance so it would be maybe how PD and on those occasions maybe it's warranted right Pastor Glenn indicated that they they have a permission from the police department currently to stop traffic for the pedestrians but that's I guess an informal agreement but we'll formalize whatever we do and with the empty I think that coupled with the crosswalk and the advanced warning I think that that's a great solution and I would venture to Guess that it's only on an infrequent basis that you're using that overflow lot um so in those instances we just want to make sure people aren't getting hit by cars unless the congregation grows to fill the 318 seat Sanctuary we're not going to need the parking across the street on a regular basis cuz they're getting 40 to 50 cars on the current situation and that that can be contained on the main lot okay else okay board members the parking across the street yes I don't know they might have said it before but that's like an informal agreement is that correct I think there's a written agreement I have a letter that I'm going to give to the board I'll read it for the record though it says this is from Star cap Holdings with the owner of property Quest Street this letter shall certify that star cap Holdings and our tenant playpoint preschool located at 65 Kenton Road Howell um have a parking accommodation arrangement with our neighbors at two Church Road we allow restoration Family Worship Center to use our parking lot for overflow parking whenever they have Services we in turn may use their parking lot during our normal business operation Monday through Friday 8:30 to 4:30 p.m. all special events are coordinated not to conflict with these schedules hence the crosswalk the signage that'll work be in everyone's best interest it'll be in everyone's best interest right the daycare center as well yes hey hey hey s what happens if the ownership changes yeah and then there's they don't want to share paring that's a common problem that um they'll have to find some alternative way of handling it if they grow if the congregation grows beyond what the parking lot can accommodate they're going to have to handle it that's we should Mark that Andy that's we're up to a23 a23 miss scotson I just had a question because I'm looking at the maps um was one of the letters for the um buy and sell sent to 22 tyoga yes okay it was sent to 42 Kent 22 tyoga and 265 Princeton Avenue and brick because that's where the property ex yeah and did they didn't respond um the no um let me just make sure someone did respond that would have been perfect um no they did not okay all right thank you to John I just have a question as uh for the one event that's on the record uh for uh football Sunday uh it being a a tailgate party um how does the flow of traffic uh how do that affected by people hanging out in the parking lot is it going to be towards the Northern end southern end is there like a designated area so that we don't have cars riding through because it looks like a pretty tight fit to begin with um um yeah Pastor Glenn may be better able to answer that um I've been to many tailgates up at the metal ANS for Giant games and you just put the uh the grill in an unused parking space and that's how generally it works but I don't so did you hear the question the grassy area okay good uh currently when we do the uh tailgate Pary we we mainly use the grassy area to keep the center open okay so so we don't block the uh pavement area it's my only concern I just wanted like I said U much like the crossing over on uh on Church uh you know P pedestrian safety and especially with kids running back and forth the last thing I would want to see if you know if true tailgate is in the middle of the parking lot like uh in giant Stadium uh and um you know as long as you have a plan and uh they're considered in in that traffic plan I'm okay with that thank you I defer P CL and then just a comment for the board too is um the availability of parking is also going to kind of dictate like how many people can actually come to this site right there's not a whole lot of available you know it's not like we have 8ot shoulders with a curb where people can be parking along the street there's not a whole lot of like residential subdivisions in close proximity so like self the site itself and across the street is almost going to self-regulate and dictate like like act actual usage and parking demand so maybe they encourage people to park across the street so the parking spaces are freed up for barbecuing that would be the way to do it do they have a No Parking along Kent Road right in front of the church there's no parking allowed along Kent Road okay okay just want to make sure that's there's no it's the shoulder isn't wide enough okay what's the speed limit on Camp believe it's 3550 well if there's a cop there directing just to go just to go a little bit outside of testifying for the church Kent Road is a Municipal Road and one of the things that can be effective in slowing traffic down the solar powered flashing speed limit think that tell you what speed you're doing I know there's one on Lakewood Road by my office I see it all the time because it's a 25 mph speed limit and if you're doing 27 or 30 it flashes tells you what what speed you're going but that would be something that the town would have to install I don't think they're very expensive they're solar powered that might be of some help they have wandering one the township has a yeah mobile but they also have permanent ones that you can install that are just solar powered on the speed limit side yeah right yes the speed Li on the speed Yes actually at the school if it's if it's I don't know if they can do it for Church hours but at school they make people slow down to 25 yeah we have a flashing one in front of ramtown so they don't they don't generally do that for houses of worship but I think perhaps should the board act in the affirmative on the application perhaps we can whether it's Charlie myself or Andy it you know write a letter to the governing body requesting they look into perhaps putting something like that on the speed limit sign cuz I will tell you it is effective when you're hauling it at 55 and it's a 35 mph speed liit and they're like flashing violator violator especially on Old Boulevard as well that's another one yeah so it's something that maybe the township should look into I agree 100% yeah because you also have the school you have the kid you have the the prechool on Kent so it would make sense to potentially put it there anyway I like to also State for the record that in 30 years of service here we have never had not even a near Miss for the way that we control the traffic on Sunday mornings KN thank you Pastor okay yes thank you okay one last witness Mr chair we have the planner planner yes do you swear the testimony you give will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth you got state your name the record spell your last Justin oo auu i e l l um a license plan in the state of New Jersey Kone Consulting Group uh 125 Half Mile Road Sweet 200 redm New Jersey 07 701 um so I've been a license planner since uh 2008 uh I've appeared in front of this board on multiple occasions I've I have a master's degree in City Regional planning for Ruckers University um I've appeared on uh multiple applications like this in the past I've appeared to NJIT I did not go to NJIT and I I do not have the experience of uh of our traffic engineer well we we'll accept we'll accept your credentials M chairman I hope You' have the same enthusiasm about a ruer graduate yes I do thank okay I appreciate Mr so Justin you you U briefly described the variance relief that we require um and then place the necessary proofs on the record please right I think uh it it would be helpful just to refer to the the letter from uh Miss beam dated uh May 7th uh a a variance for um for conditional use is required as a board is aware the standard for a conditional use variance is a showing of whether or not the site uh can accommodate the deviations uh very briefly uh they they are listed the variances that are required are listed on um on page three of the letter um you know our our um the engineer uh you know he went through uh the reasoning for the variances but but just briefly of course as a board is aware this is a you know undersized site um we did do uh do byell letters there is no interest uh in anyone selling to achieve um you know trying to uh to grow the site but I think the the engineer uh you know was very clear that through his testimony that the site will be able to accommodate uh the improvements uh that are proposed uh I I think importantly in terms of uh of of land use and planning context I always like to see when uh my client uh complies with the uh the coverages the impervious cage of the building I think that goes a long way uh to the proof that a site uh despite the fact that there's there's relief required for the lot area can accommodate uh as well um you heard testimony from from Mr Murphy about the uh the minimum setback from the street line uh 75 ft is required I'm sorry uh um 85 is required and the proposed setback is uh 73.5 from the existing right away and 60 60 feet after the uh the the easan dedication obviously as you heard from uh from Mr Murray the shape is uh is is oddly uh shaped uh this is a unique site with a uh Cemetery which has been uh on the site for uh for a long time um and and those are really kind of the uh the hardships uh that that are really driving uh this variance uh continuing on to page four um variance uh Propst parking lot is located in required setback again this is in my opinion this is really driven by the nature of the site uh what's existing on the site and obviously uh you know the need to to improve the site to accommodate the church uh which is uh which is a protected class of use you know in herly beneficial uh of course um continuing on uh the existing not conform ities of of of the lot dep uh nothing is changing again the site will will function fine as you heard from Mr Murphy uh front yard set back to the existing Church 75 ft is required whereas whereas 14.2 is existing uh again uh non-conformity uh no impact from that uh an additional D3 uh required is uh for the uh for the lot area for the house of worship again I I I covered that uh and then I think um FR your setback has been covered um the height as you heard from the architect there is a reasoning uh for that and and the D6 standard is essentially a showing that the site can accommodate the excess height I believe the architect puts efficient testimony on uh gave gave great detail onto the reasoning for the height and and you know that height um not having any impact on the surrounding area um a Varian is required and now these are bulk variances uh for for the stormw basement in uh in the um the buffer area again um you know as you heard uh you know from the engineer really the these ancillary um uses that are going to serve the main main building there's no other way to accommodate it on the site it's just the nature of the site um I believe that given you know those factors um you know that's a hardship uh and I believe the board can not I don't think the basin's still in the buffer I think in this kind of got moved out of it hold out great so um one less variance to uh to deal with um the uh the required buffer shall contain a a fourseason buffer uh 10 feet high and a landscape early six feet high um again uh I think the applicant um given you know nature of the site I think the applicant uh is is willing to work um with the board as well on that uh you heard testimony from from Mr Ray about about the parking and uh and circulation uh variances are required uh for the parking uh no loading of parking spaces shall be in in the uh in the buffer area W is required uh 30 30 foot uh a circulation aisle um must be maintained for emergency purposes whereas a 25 ft aisle is proposed again you heard testimony from both Engineers about the the ability of the site to circulate properly to park properly and again these are these are really driven by the nature of the site and and the cemetery I think which is which is driving that as well um varant required for uh for for for fences and walls a uh a board War fence six foot high and and located in the required 75ft front yard setback again there's no other way to accommodate this on the site I think the board can be can feel comfortable with the granting of that of that of that variance uh the architectural plans as the board um saw I they're aesthetically pleasing I think this has really come a long way uh into coming to a solution uh that uh that Miss beam and the board professionals uh like um and lastly in terms of just uh just purposes of zoning that are Advanced obviously uh criteria a this is an advancement of a general welfare it's inly beneficial I think that that goes without saying this is a use that serves the community um criteria um G uh there's sufficient space on the site to accommodate it you know despite that you the limitations uh and the width and the depth and also the the size and the shape I think the engineer has done a great job to accommodate that um criteria H uh you know the the the the the free flow of traffic is going to be accommodated um with this plan as you heard from Mr Ray and and the visual environment uh which is I certainly as you saw from the architectural plans uh it's aesthetic pleasing uh and lastly the negative criteria my professional opinion there's uh no uh substantial detri to public good associated with this application I I would offer that um there there substantial improvements um to the site from the existing condition uh and what's proposed obviously is going um to be uh you know respectful to the surrounding properties and also be a great benefit to the community and lastly I see uh no detriment to the Zone plan and uh and and the zoning ordinance the the zoning ordinance by virtue of having this use as permitted subject to conditions um I think the board can can feel comfortable that what's proposed will will not impair uh your Zone plan the zoning ordinance uh and the and the um master plan as well thank you Justin thank you Justin Jen I have no problem with the relief that's been requested I think as the application has been presented the concerns that we had related to any of the site design or operations the applicant has agreed to mitigate through various measures to comply with my concerns Charlie's concerns as well as sher's concerns so I take no exception to the testimony that's been provided and I I do think that the biggest concern that I had was the crossing of Kent Road and I think we've managed to to mitigate that so I I have no problem with this great board members got it so Cherry everything looks good um I still had some additional comments on Landscaping but um Mr Murphy did say he would agree to comply with all of them yeah I like the choices so far that's fine with me no no questions I just I for I forgot to ask one question earlier with regard to the staff parking is there any room whatsoever for them to expand the pad to make instead of making a tandem it's it's really the driveway that goes to the house so no and if you push the parking spaces back towards Camp Road you're going to be blocking the access to the parking field so no okay okay so that concludes our presentation I did have a question oh sorry I don't of the planner or someone I guess it could be a for the planner go ahead the um the approved or what's going to be the approved Through Fire lanee markings should those be on the plans themselves cuz I don't see them yes they'll have to they'll have to revise the plans for resolution compliance based on all the conditions and things like that thank you okay so we're going to open it to public I'll make that motion Mr we got a motion to open the public I will second we got a second all in favor all right I the board will now be open to public if you'd like to come stand up and state your name name and address this is for questions of the professionals they're all with us nobody has any questions quite the Entourage there so not not see not seeing any can have a motion to close close we got all in favor I we're closed to public yep okay Miss alery um you got a summary for us very briefly uh Mr chair thank you all for your time um I think that U this has been a couple of years this project we've worked with the board professionals um even through tonight and the board's comments to address I think everything that the board or its professionals have raised as issues uh resolution compliance will take some work and effort to revise the plans and make sure we address everything but otherwise it's a great use they're great people and we'd request that the board Grant the approval as request as um propos this evening thank you Mr D so then what's the pleasure of the board have a comment to uh Mr chairman i' be willing to concede the sidewalk contribution given that that section is over a cemetery no they have to go to the governing body to ask for that we can't oh really yeah well we could we could request that they petition the governing body that's absolutely but we can't do it they would still need relief from us because it's not the full Frontage but they would have to go before the governing body to get relief gotcha I'm just nobody wants to walk on no I 100% I know and I don't have a problem with them not putting it there at all I just if they and I don't have a problem with the governing body waving the contribution but we just can't do it but we could initi request the government body at least could certainly have it in the resolution that does not take issue with if the governing body were to Grant relief you would just have to request it from the mayor council we could do that okay good and M Fury does the church own the land where the cemetery is Pastor do does the church own the land where the cemetery is okay that's yeah we own uh we own the land but the Methodist Church owns the cemetery it's a very strange agreement that was made uh when we purchased the uh the property we own the land the land is on our plot plan but the cemetery itself like like we own we own we own from six feet below okay they would so they they essentially have like a Perpetual lease for the plot there there was some concern we we don't maintain it have their own people maintaining it we we don't sell no plots we own the land but the Methodist Church owns the uh yeah Ocean Grove is like the same the camp meeting owns the land but then you get a 100e lease or whatever yeah there was there was some concerns on social media a few months back about um Stones stus heavy stones that were just piling up there were names on them they were just kind of discarded do you do you know about that okay so a gentle named Mr Thomas he was the one maintaining the cemetery I I don't know if he he died I I I don't know but I I haven't seen him in a in in in a few pretty much about five years I haven't seen Mr Thomas I do know what you're talking about of those stones piled up in the back and I have no way of yeah cuz I went there myself when I saw it on social media and I was I was concerned and curious um yeah so and I did it's a big pil of and there's names on the stones and the years people died and and yeah he I haven't seen Mr Thomas maybe he has joined the uh my Cur my curiosity is I I would re I would suggest based upon the testimony that has been given that that's a Methodist Church issue that's not the subject of this application so if somebody has concerns about that they should reach out to the Methodist Church okay all right thank you [Applause] join Okay so we've heard all the testimony we've asked all the questions and we're at the point of time where the pleasure of the board we got six members here and they're entitled to have seven um if there's a broad failing that you know we only need six okay then U then what's the pleasure of the board Mr chairman I'll make a motion that we Grant the conditional use variants preliminary and final major site plan and bulk variants requested uh with all of the conditions and um special Provisions provided but recommended by our professionals and hear and discussed and agreed upon we have a motion to approve do we have a second we have a second second Miss scotson has seconded Eileen can we have a roll call please Mr burillo yes Mr caner yes Mr Hughes yes Mr Mertens I want to thank everybody for coming out tonight even though none of you came up which I didn't think you would be but anyway thank you for coming and just seeing you here makes it more easier for me to say yes as well Miss scotson I have to concur it's an absolute blessing and amazing to see you guys here so glad you came out to support and I give an emphatic yes this is a long time coming so I wish you all the best and application is approved [Applause] [Applause] thank you did the chairman vote did he vote no he didn't vote I voted yes name thank you everyone