flag I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty justice for all thank you in compliance with njsa 10 colum for the open public meetings act notice of the special meeting of the Jackson Township planning I'm sorry notice of this regular meeting of the Jack Township planning board has been posted and published in all appropriate locations may have a roll call please Mr Bry here Mr Brin here Mr Harring here Mr Herer here Mr rker Mr Sullivan here Mr marzo Mr trammer Mr wall here Dr Campbell here Mr Herman here thank you before we start I would like to welcome Mr chmer to the board thank you thank you for taking up the time to be here and uh hopefully we'll see a lot of you going forward and I would like to congratulate uh Mr Bernstein on his new position within the township thank you so um for tonight we have um the approval of the minutes for the October 16th 2023 regular meeting May I please have a motion so moved second all in favor I I no I'm sorry we have to do I'm sorry roll call please Mr brassy yes Mr brunstein yes uh Mr Harring uh Mr Herer yes Mr Sullivan yes Mr wall yes Dr Campbell yes and Mr Herman thank you yes thank you may I please have a motion for the payment to the vouch for the recording secretary for the November 20th in favor I thank you um resolutions for tonight yes there are thank you Mr chairman resolution number 2023 d28a resolution of the planning board of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey granting preliminary and final major side plan approval with the required variances and design waivers for a second floor building Edition for 715 Bennetts Mills LLC block 8101 Lot 10 eligible to vote Mr brassy Mr binstein uh Mr Sullivan Mr Herer Mr wall Dr Campbell Mr Herman I please have a motion so moved second roll call please Mr brassy yes Mr binstein yes Mr Sullivan yes Mr Hower yes Mr wall yes Dr Campbell yes Mr Herman yes thank you resolution number 2023-2024 state of New Jersey granting preliminary and final major s plan approval with the design with design waivers for a daycare facility for Bennett Mills realy LLC block 12201 Lots 16 and 18 eligible to vote Mr brassy Mr binstein Mr rker Mr Herer Dr Campbell and Mr Herman may I please have a motion so moved Lo call please Mr brassy yes Mr Mr berstein yes Mr rker oh I'm sorry Mr Herer uh Dr Campbell yes and Mr Herman yes thank you um we have two changes to the agenda schedule the first is block 1973 lot 28.01.2013 second all in favor I thank you now the second one is block 2501 lot 3 340 West commodor LLC will be carried from the 12423 meeting to the 1824 meeting again for scheduling purposes only may I please have a motion so moved second all in favor I thank you uh now before we um pick up the uh next application um I believe there were some members including myself that were not here and um I I watched the meeting Mr Bry has told me to watch meeting Mr Bernson has watched the meeting so any was anybody else not here by that meeting would like Mr Tremor did you um go through did you watch that meeting no you did not so you will not be eligible to vote on that tonight thank you um okay with that housekeeping in mind let's move forward um first application for tonight's block 801 L 6263 394 chanler Holdings LLC Mr CLE maybe you just like to wrap up where where we are until now thank you Mr chairman um we had some initial testimony on this application involving a um subdivision as well as a site plan application um we heard from the um applicant site engineer an architect and um we'll carry on on tonight just um a couple things in the very very beginning of the um opening meeting um I raised the question of public versus private um um the the roadway and the infrastructure improvements I think the um applicant had indicated that um it would take it under an advisement or we would consider it um for the first question is any movement on that just for the record Donna Jennings from the law firm or Len scholman Spitzer on behalf of the applicant the applicant is still considering that request thank you um but during the testimony um the drainage basins themselves that I think was agreed to that they would be private correct um how about the um the drainage pipes in the road and like the catch basins would the town be responsible for them or would they also be private Jen You' like to bring forward your engineer I'd rather have my engineer answer that thank you you I know you were previously sworn but this board you know customarily rewears in our you know the professionals so please raise your right hand thank you do you Solly swear or affirm the testimon information questions or comments you present will be the truth I you something about the truth I do thank you please state your name spell your last and your credentials please for the record James Henry from Dynamic engineering last name h n r y thank you and your credential sorry just very you want me to weo through my credentials as well two five words okay yeah I'm a I'm a site civil engineer a license professional engineer in the state of New Jersey thank you we accept your credentials thank you thank you Mr CLE maybe would you like to ask a question for the engineer um yeah the um like I said I was I think it was agreed to or acknowledged that all the drainage basins um would be privately owned and maintained and it's really just you know yes or no or quick quick question about the pipes in the catch Basin and the road those infrastructure improvements also also private uh my my interes understand is that that would be public because it's within the public right away if it's public right away if it was going to be private then would all be private correct thank you that's all Mr chairman thank you Mr Peters do you have anything to add before we move on property still L located in the zone within which the proposed schools are a permitted juice so they continue to be correctly before the planning board that's all thank you now I believe we're up to um the cross examination is that correct yes that's correct okay uh Mr grasy okay if I may let me first introduce myself uh my name is Ron garosi I'm an attorney with offices in Red Bank New Jersey and I do represent uh a group of concerned citizens who live in the IM muted area of of the subject property they have formed a non for-profit entity and I am here to represent them and my initial comment is this property in question is 23.25 acres and I would submit to the board because of the size and dimensions of this property there could in fact be a school constructed on this property which is totally conforming and if conforming my clients would welcome uh its presence uh schools are part of the fabric of our society this municipality has seen fit to Zone this property for such a use and such a use if conforming would be an addition and a compliment to your community I I would just like to make one last comment and I would refer to the uh traffic analysis which was done by the applicant's uh traffic consultant and I would read from page seven where it states once the proposed student and staff populations were identified the number of vehicular trips to and from the site during the studied peak hours were calculated as per information provided by the applicant between 5 and 10% of students will be dropped to off and picked up and conservatively 10% has been utilized additionally it is anticipated that the remaining students will be uh bused to the site at a rate of 45 students per bus so we're talking of a total of 2,451 students we're talking of a total of 255 staff members when we go to page eight my one lastest comment would be once the magnitude of the traffic to be generated by the site is known it is necessary to assign that traffic to the adjacent Street system the distribution of new traffic to the surrounding roadways is based on the location of primary arterial roadways major signalized intersections and existing traffic patterns uh the site generators volumes respectfully scientist study areas are there and there is also then a further future Capacity Analysis and Mr Henry uh you are in fact uh Associated whom can I just uh interject I just wanted to say two things with respect to his opening one this is a permitted use variance free it's a few design waivers that the applicant needs so I'm glad to hear that the objectors Council has acknowledged that this board shall Grant an approval to a fully forming application and that the schools are welcome two with respect to the comments regarding traffic the traffic report speaks for itself and we will have a traffic engineer who will testify at length he has not yet testified Mr Henry is not the traffic engineer but the civil engineer thank you let me let me just further comment that I've listened to my colleague's comments and one of the positions which we are taking with regard to the application is that when one reads the reports of the board's professionals Mr Peters and Mr CLE uh there are a lot of unknowns in this application now it may very well be as testimony develops in this matter there will be additional issues which could be raised and that is one reason why I want to take this witness through the reports of the governing bodies and board of AD the board's uh experts who commented upon uh the application itself and I would start up by also saying that because of the size and dimensions of this property there could in fact be a completely conforming school for boys and girls placed upon this property without the necessity of the perhaps uh dozen variances of various Natures which are being sort they're being identified as requests for waivers uh but they are in reality uh variances uh there were two review letters which I would have referred to that were done by the board's uh experts one is dated March the 12th of 2033 one letter is from Ernest Peters the second letter is from Douglas key there was then a second letter which is dated in August of 2023 uh I have made an oper request and I've also subscribed to to all of the various uh drawings and or the like but it appears to me from what was provided to me is that the last uh review letter was done in August of 2023 and I'll I'll stand corrected if that's not a uh correct statement uh Mr Henry Henry good evening uh you are a professional engineer correct yes licensed in the state of New Jersey yes and you were the engineer who was primarily responsible for Designing the layout of this project correct I did so uh along with my colleagues okay now I'm assuming that in preparing it you had the assistance of various other professionals whether they be Engineers surveyors or uh younger people who have not yet qualified as Engineers correct but you oversaw uh the project itself yes now uh I made the earlier comment that if in fact the size of this project were reduced that because of the size of the property itself if you had lesser buildings lesser students you basically could design and come forward with a totally conforming project except perhaps for the entrance way into the site was that a question question I think it was can you repeat the question sure uh I first had some prefatory comments where I asked you about your design of the project and I would I'm I'm accepting the fact that you were in overall control of the design and implementation of the design itself correct can you define overall control pardon me can you define overall control well Define every every project has someone who is in charge of overseeing the design of it correct we work in a collaborative environment we work in a collaborative environment we work with all the all the other professionals that um work together on this project also the applicant has is involved as well so there's lots of there's lots of design considerations okay then me try to make it a simpler question uh would you agree with me that if in fact the size of this project were diminished if the number of buildings either were eliminated or reduced in size if the number of students was reduced in number uh you could in fact design a project which was uh basically waiver free and uh variance free this is a fully conforming application pardon me this is a fully conforming applic with no variances it's fully conforming with no variances there are are you seeking a number of waivers there are waivers but there's no variances how many waivers are you seeking I'd have to look at the review letter to give you an ex take a quick look okay what 13 okay now would it be a fair comment to say that you are seeking variances we don't know yet whether or not you are entitled to those they're design waivers they're waivers pardon me you asked about variances we we're requesting design waivers but some of them some of them if the board so chooses can classify them as Varian is not waivers is that not so I I disagree okay now let's talk about and I I read the report and what I really found interesting in my mind is that uh in going through both the exhibits as well as the transcript of the last hearing it seems that uh the applicant has not yet determined whether or not the interior roadway in this project will be a private roadway or a public roadway has that determination yet been made the way it's presented it as a public RightWay pardon me the way it's presented on the plans it's a public right away so your intent is uh if this project is in fact approved the interior roadway will be a public roadway yes and the public meaning all of the residents in Jackson if they wish to do so can travel on that roadway yes okay now as I read through this report uh you are also seeking to install a number of private improvements for example uh and I'll get into this deeper but you are seeking to install both a private sewage system as well as a private water system is that not so we're going to have a well system as well as a septic system correct right and they are private correct yes and some of those will require lines to be installed in the public roadways yes well how can you do that if you're having a public roadway and you're having private lines installed within that roadway he'll be responsible for making maintaining that roadway in maintaining those lines I'm assuming there would be some sort of developers agreement that would outline that you assuming there's going to be a developers agreement but you don't have that yet do you no no if in fact if in fact you are to receive an approval from this board the first thing you have to do is go to the governing body of the township of Jackson and you have to get them to agree to accept this public roadway is that not so that's not my understanding pardon me that's not my understanding what's your understanding of it it's really a legal question and Beyond the scope of his direct so let's stick with his direct questions he did not testify regarding develop agreement it's it's it's within the scope of the comments that are profer to him by the board's professionals he designed it initially when you were here back a couple weeks ago you had not yet made up your mind whether it would be a public roadway or a private roadway now he's saying it's going to be a public roadway so my question to him first of all does he understand that in order for it to be a public roadway he has to make application to the governing body to see whether or not they'll accept it as a public roadway he's not going to be the one making the application he's the civil engineer I would make the application so that's not really a proper question for Mr Henry do you want to testify I'm not testifying you know I'm not okay I so move on to your next question don't give me hey guys we got to have one at the time one at the time all right one we got to have a got two court reporters here one at the time uh Mr Jennings if you want to object please address me um when you're objecting okay well let me ask you this question are you unable to answer that question it's not under my purview I'm sorry it's not under my purview that's a legal question she unable to answer the question yes okay give me a minute now I want to refer you uh briefly to the letter which is dated March the 15 of 2023 it's from The Firm of Owen little and Associates Mr gaski just uh talk into the microphone and it's signed by uh Douglas C and I'm assuming that uh prior to coming here this evening and subsequent to March you in fact uh read and reviewed that letter did you not I did but that's not the current review letter I understand that I'll get to that I appreciate your help uh there was also a letter that was signed by Mr Peters was it not in addition to that letter back in yes okay now subsequent to that there was a another letter another review letter which I believe uh just bear it with me for one second was signed in August the 18th of uh 2023 and there were two letters one signed by Mr Peters the other signed by Mr C now during your preparation uh of the plans in question and prior to your coming here today did you have occasion to review those uh letters I did review them at one time being that they're not the those those few letters are not are from a long time ago I was focusing more on the current review letters is a revie more current the one then of August the 18th of 2023 I I I made an open request I didn't receive a more recent letter I've got a letter dated August 16th and August 17th I mine is dated August the 18th and then August the 17th as well the August the 18th letter is signed by Sherie mpo that's a tree I understand that I I and I'm not trying to sneak went by him I I didn't look closely enough at the letter when I had it in my file but the review letter is the first one coming for Remington Vernick is dated on August the 17th of 2023 yes okay when do you think it was the last time that you read that letter was the last time I read it entirely um at the last at the last hearing last year prior to the last hearing yeah or prior to the last hearing yes uh now the letter is dated August the 17th of 2023 and I would assume that you read it shortly after that is that not so I'm assuming I read it yeah when we received it whatever date that was yes okay now that letter also sets forth a number of comments that Mr Peters made to deal with his review of the project did you read all of those comments yes did you make any attempt to remedy any of the comments that he made with regard to design waivers and things of that nature we we had a public hearing scheduled so we were going to schedule hearing we had a public hearing scheduled so part of that process is to discuss those comments where did you discuss the comments at during the last hearing the last hearing was what two weeks ago yes well did you tell the board two weeks ago that with regard to the letters that were dated in August the 17th that you had addressed all of the comments and remedied all of the changes that the board's professionals had suggested I don't believe that was my testimony well did you at any time subsequent to August the 17th Revis all of the plans so that they comported with all the comments that the boards professionals made for necessary changes to the plan we did not submit a revised site plan after our submission well let let me ask you this question then if you were directed by the board's professionals on August the 17th that they were were deficiencies in your plans why is it that you did not undertake to remedy those deficiencies I mean we're agreeing to address the majority of the the comments so I'm sorry we're we're agreeing to address the comments and that was our testimony at the last year in all fairness I read the transcripts I wasn't here at the hearing but I read the transcripts and I don't see at any of that transcript where you perhaps looked at uh comments made with regard to having parking in the front of the property with regard to buffering with regard to setbacks with regard to comments that the board had as to necessary engineering for the sewage treatment plant or the construction of the wells did you read did you come back with a design for your sewage treatment plant I believe our testimony was that it was conceptual that we reviewed it uh with you let me I'm I apologize I know I said I apologize for cutting him short I can't help myself um that they were conceptual in nature we did preliminary septic testing to confirm the septic uh is feasible we also received a permit to do well to do a test well which we're in the process of doing okay let me I mean let's let's talk about that uh let's talk about that sewage treatment facility uh because it's something which really jumps out at us as we look at what you're dealing with how could you possibly come before this board and give them a conceptual plan without having a fully engineered plan I don't follow the question pardon I don't follow the question you don't follow the question well would you agree with me uh this property I believe consists of approximately 24 acres does it not I think it does yes 23 and change okay and it's in an area that is also surrounded by uh freestanding one family residential homes correct uh I don't believe it's fully surrounded there's two roads adjacent to it okay what what don't you think that those people who live in that immediate area that they would have a great desire to know that what was being put into the ground put into the underground system of water and the like that it was completely safe and fully engineered before anybody would have the hutzpah to seek an [Applause] approval excuse me excuse me excuse me just keep it down let let let let the process roll everybody will have time to talk later thank you we are subject to approval for DP permits and review by the municipality and the health department I I don't I don't care one you did you did you submit the applications for those approvals we did submit to the uh mua and we I believe we received approval okay now let me ask you this question do you believe that if in fact this board were to Grant to an approval of your application that you can perform all of his engineering all of these studies after the fact all all what can you specifically list them out please well all of the engineering all of the test borings all of a design you think you could do that after you receive an approval we did borings already we did we did test bits already on well have you submitted that all to the board's Professionals for their review I believe we submitted a geotechnical report yes have you received have you received reports back from them I believe that was the report that you were referencing dated August let me let me ask this question if you think that you can come by here and just get by with submitting conceptual reports in the case is closed how will my clients have an opportunity to hire professionals to review those plans and present their objections to the board speculation he doesn't know that's speculate yeah that is speculation excuse me excuse me just please address through the speculation please address through the attorney if if you have if you have any if you have any knowledge of the question it can be asked if you don't that's acceptable as well can you repeat the question could you read the question back then that's a trick question to ask me I think I could remember that for sorry just maybe a microphone thank you it's my big moment uh if you think that you can come by here and just get by with submitting conceptual reports and the case is closed how will my clients have an opportunity to hire professionals to review those plans and present their objections to the board we submitted sign and sealed engineering plans and sign and sealed geotechnical sorry sorry we submitted sign and sealed engineering plans and signed and sealed geotechnical plans which outlined um the design plans as well as the stormw management design and also the geotechnical design well let me ask this question don't you think this board as well as my clients would be better able to make a determination as to any objections they they might have to this project if they had the opportunity to review those plans just as some other agency might have it why do they have to why do they have to wait why do they have to wait until maybe a months from now you've completed your plans uh and they have to come back and hire me all over again uh to deal with it why can't you do them right now if if anything changes we're going to have to come back to this board so I'm sorry if any if something changes specifically relating to the size of the building or on the you're you're specifically referencing the water treatment plant right correct the sewer treatment plan I didn't hear you are you specifically referencing the sewer treatment plan that's one of the things I'm I'm going to reference yeah not the only one so if you want to call them out individually I can go through them so don't you think we should stop right now you complete designing your plans and after you do that we'll come back that stuff is under the purview of the njd so we do not need to go through that with the board it'll be subject to this board's approval it's not something that you should be considering let me go a little further uh on page one of the letter from Remington verick it says that the high school will be boy high school will be serviced with a portable well water softening and pressure boosting equipment for portable water service 25 gallon underground tanks and a fire service well for fire suppression and a Transformer with concrete plant and subsurface sanitary septic fields you see that I'm sorry yeah yes okay has that been designed yet we we as I mentioned earlier we are doing we're going to do testing of the well and that is not designed yet has not yet been designed the the size of the underground tanks has been designed that was a comment from the fire department Department which we agree to now also go on to page two says the boys elementary school will be serviced with a potable well water suffing and pressure boosting equipment for portable now pable means drinkable doesn't it not yes 2 15,000 gallon underground tanks and a fire surface well for fire suppression a Transformer with concrete pad and subsurface sanitary septics Fields can you can you define to me or explain what a subsurface sanitary septic field is it's a septic field that has a tank and then also has a leech field okay an effluent is collected into the tank yes does any of that also uh exposed to the underground soils or does it go right into a tank it goes right into a tank okay now have they been designed yet and reviewed by the proper authorities there's been a preliminary design completed based on the geotechnical testing that we did complete yes have they been submitted to the board uh Engineers for review no they were sized according to the geotechnical testing that we did obtain but they have not yet been given to them for review have they they have not but they've been sized according to the geot typical results that were done right now also on the bottom of the page uh two it says the overall site access will be provided via a new Full movement curved and paved entrance roadway with a 70ft ralway connecting to Chandler Road each school provides access to the entrance roadway the two schools on lot a and the one school on Lot C provide a separate one-way Entrance Drive and oneway exit Drive uh the report consists of your review of the applications have those reports with regard to the traffic and with regard to the construction of the roadway itself been submitted to the engineering staff of Jackson Township and the board of adjust planting board my understanding is there was a traffic report submitted yes have you received reports back from the authorities from from where well let me just let me read a little further it says here uh this report consists of army view of the subject application uh and that the planning issues and engineering and legal issues shall be reviewed by the board engineer and the solicitor respectively have you know do you know whether or not that has been done yet yes I believe the the report in front of you is the report from the you think this is the report I don't believe it is no we have we have one we have two different review letters one dated August 16th and one dated August 17th there's two different review layers coming on to page six and sub paragraph D says pursuant to 244-4623 46 b11 other customary accessory uses buildings and structures which are clearly incidental to the principal use building testimony to be provided to support the use designation for the water softening and pressure boosting equipment the underground fire suppression tank the test ramar and the wastewater treatment plant the above uses are not described in the accessory use setback requirements for the R3 zone so uh a discussion will be required to determine the accessory building setback requirements have you made a determination what those setback requirements are and whether or not on the plan that you've submitted that you satisfy them as far as a setback requirements I'll defer to the board planner um but we we identified each of those items and we've also identified that they're clearly incidental to the principal building principal use going on to page uh eight the very top of the page it says for Section 244-h 46d the minimum lot width is 200 fet whereas the overall existing lot width is 170 ft so you need a variance for that do you not we eliminate that as part of the sub we eliminate that as part of the subdivision so you don't you don't have the you don't need that variance that's correct okay thank you now in says pursuant to section Frontage the lot depth is greater than 400 fet however when considering the lot depth using the new road as lot Frontage the lot depth is approximately 50 ft so basically you have a frontage of 50 ft when 400 uh when a much greater is required correct no okay explain to me why you don't I believe we went over that in the testimony there was an exhibit submitted that basically outlined how we the definition of front yard lot width as well as lot depth and we went over that the last hearing and we can refer specifically if you if you would like to view it on the screen we can review to that exhibit where we outline the lot with and lot depth based on our calculations the lot width is two 264 feet and the lot depth is 1,748 Ft approximately doesn't the uh board re this is the engineers review also call for you to provide a sketch to verify the lot depth for proposed Lot C have you have you done that yes we provided an exhibit a13 okay now having said that uh also looking on page nine at F uh the plan shows it to be a private road but you are confirming today that it will not be a private road but rather it will in fact be a public road I think what we said was it's still under consideration but the plans are public road right now you know okay you know what I I really find that with all due respect m j because you know I've known you for a long time my recollection was when we started this meeting the comment was clearly that it would be a public road I even asked questions as to whether or not uh you'd have to get the approval from the governing body for it to be a public road and now you're saying as the attorney for the applicant that whether it's public or private is still under consideration yes and that's exactly what I said in the very beginning when Doug CLE asked that question this evening who said that Mr CLE asked that very first thing in his open he asked us that question and we said for right now it's public roow but it is under consideration as to whether or not we'll make it private those were my exact words and I guess we could have the court report to go back to the very beginning but that was the last that was at the last hearing not that was tonight less than half an hour ago hang hang on hang on all right hang on so number one um Mr Jennings he he has a he has a point excuse me yeah um here has a point in the sense that if you if the applicant is referencing that there could be a possibility of the road being private I believe that that would trigger a few variances which I think that we've discussed so um I believe that he's just requesting do we have variances or or don't we which one is it the other if we need to take some time for you to talk to your applicant to figure out well as I said right now it's a public road so there are none we're taking it under consideration as to whether it'll be private I think that's what he's asking so if the engineer could just put on the record as of right now what is it it's a public road okay okay Ron if you want to okay do you if in fact you change your mind and becomes a private road do you realize as the engineer designing the shite that that may call for some additional variances or variance I don't think we should talk in hypotheticals I shouldn't talk in hypotheticals no we're not we're not reviewing that type of application we're talking about the application well would you agree with me that if in fact you later decide that it's going to be a private road and you need variances and you haven't noticed for them you got to come back for those variances correct if there are variances we did not notice for then yes okay uh and I know that you're only the engineer and I know that you can't look into a crystal wall but when do you think you ultimately make your mind up as to whether it's public or private I'm not making that decision pardon me I'm not making that decision I'm the site civil engineer no I I I can understand that uh as a matter of fact that's one of the comments in the letter of Mr Peters which is dated August the 18th and that's page nine and he States in sub paragraph F the applicant indicates that the road will be a private road however the plan indicates that the roadway bu be dedicated to Jackson Township testimony shall be provided to discuss the ownership of the entrance road so it's fair to say though that as of yet you really haven't made up your mind my testimony Remains the Same okay now going further down into uh on page nine they have there uh with the exception of the following the site plan engineer the following site plan issues are deferred to the board engineer now that's Roman numeral 5 and then capital letter A we have 1 2 3 4 and says testimony shall be provided as to the operation at each school to include the number of students number of Staff hours of of operations kitchen operations busing and after school programs now I would assume that you are not the proper person for me to ask those questions of correct or can you answer them that's correct uh is it your representation that at a later point in time someone will be called to provide that information if you know yes okay well that you know if that'll be this evening is that person here this evening depends on whether we get through Jim's Cross or not pardon me depends on whether we get through Jim's Cross or not I didn't know she was so funny that's that's the best kept secret you don't mind my joking with you do you miss Jennings no not at all thank you uh one one quick comment as to were they're referring to number two the issue of uh a lot 46 which is not included within other application do you know where lot 46 is on the plan yes can you show me where it is yeah do you want to pull up the um yeah can can we pull up exhibit A4 screen is it on the uh it's there I can't see that and if you have a laser pointer I don't know if we can sure lot 46 is is it off the site it's off the site yes thank you you know whether or not as an engineer that a phase two environmental site assessment is warranted uh we we likely will have to do one at some point uh being that there are these are schools so we will have to do we will have to follow dp's recommendations as far as school test testing for environmental well why why haven't you done it already I mean you're coming here before this board we're talking about an application for 2500 school children plus another 250 staff and it would seem to me that would be something uh which is important for you to present testimony to this board now will you be called back to present that testimony or will there be someone else who will present that testimony I don't believe I'll be presenting it no okay but someone will come back to testify I don't know you don't know okay I know that uh you're not qualified to answer this question and I'm only it's sort of anecdotal uh do you know whether or not there'll be any provision for uh solar provision in this these buildings if you know if you don't know fine that that's not within my perview okay now going on to page 11 I'm sorry page 10 uh the Highlight there is traffic circulation parking and loading and the first comment is uh the applicant will provide testimony to discuss whether the roadway is intended to be public or private and that's still up in the air correct my testimony Remains the Same regarding that issue okay now uh also in subparagraph three there there are comments made that Chandler Road intersection that the Northbound approach of Chanel road is proposed to provide a share left turn while the southbound approach is to provide a shared through right turn lane uh that testimony although you design the engineering uh that would be testimony coming from a traffic consultant correct that's correct thank you secondly with regard to number four uh says parking areas and residential zones for uses other than single family and two family dwellings may be located in the rear or side yard but shall not be loaded in any required front yard setback whereas parking is located in the front yard hard now uh can can you explain to me why parking would be in the front yard rather than in the rear yard if you know the answer to that question yeah I went over it extensively at the last meeting um there are residential uses to the East and also to the West as you had pointed out uh it by having the parking in the front yard it allows the building to buffer the activity from the adjacent residential uses well you say bluffers from uh residential uses but as I read the earlier reports and there not I don't read any testimony in the transcript uh there are also going to be uh flood lights and other lights throughout the entire site as well as along the periphery of the property now have you retained the services of a lighting expert who will give testimony as to the impact that this I forget what they called it but it's a light which goes up into the sky will have upon the surrounding uh residential homes are you qualified to answer that question sky are you talking about Sky glow yeah Sky glow all of our lights will be downward facing pardon me all of our lights will be full cut off downward facing but then you still have to have testimony with regard to that do you not I provided testimony of lighting last week last last meeting oh you said was there wasn't going to be any glow that wasn't my testimony pardon me that was not my testimony what was your testimony you'd have to review the transcript I thought you bringing me a bottle of water no okay now uh it goes on also to say uh that on number five no driveway shall be located less than 10 ft from the side property line or within 30 ft of an existing Drive whichever is greater whereas the driveway for lot b is 7 ft from the property line of lot a now if you were to reduce the size of the building or perhaps reconfigure or relocate the building you could avoid the neity of that waiver could you not again going hypotheticals we didn't review that that's a hypoth itical yes I'm going to repeat it again nope okay you understand the question yes you just think it's a hypothetical yes okay because you don't you don't want to conform to the zoning ordinance that's I didn't I didn't prepare a plan referencing that so I can't really now let's also look at number six says sidewalks and curbing shall be required along all Street frontages as a condition relating to any development for which approval is granted by the planning board or Board of adjustment the the uh author goes on to say there is no sidewalk or proposed along Chandler Road can you tell me why as an engineer you wouldn't have sidewalk along Chandler Road we're not anticipating any students to walk to this facility and we agreed to contribute not anticipating anybody walking there is that what it is um can I finish sure okay um we are not anticipating anyone any students to be walking to this facility and we agreed contribute for the sidewalks how about how about just the general public in Jackson if they wish to walk by this building that'll be discussed by operations you can you can discuss with operations how how people will be accessing the facility okay uh it also goes on to talk about uh reinforced concrete apron shall be constructed at all driveways between the curb and the concrete sidewalk none have been provided uh the next number nine 10t wide linescape Islands at the end of parking roads where parking access lines intersect with circulation dri whereas 5 foot Island are provided now is it all isn't all of those items such as that designed to cut down the amount of impervious surface and open it up for having larger buildings on the site no okay now number n n uh I'm sorry number 10 says provide testimony regarding the anticipated size of delivery trucks and discuss the timing of all deliveries that'll be provided by the traffic consultant I believe that actually probably by operations pardon me operations okay and I'm you may or may not know the answer to this so you're going to call uh two people one operations I guess would talk about how the fac facility operates and then a trafficking person who may or may not also get into that correct thank you correct the same thing is true uh with number 11 you know there's a standard of a radi and you are seeking relief from having to comport with the ordinance correct yes uh do you have my understanding is that uh some of the grades in the school will go up to the 12th grade correct I'm not discussing operations you don't know whether they will or they won't I'm not no okay and you you when you designed this project you had no idea the number of students who would be in the upper grades would be driving to the school by themselves we outline the number of students on our plans and that's where okay we get involved and I take it that like for example number 11 that testimony will come from your operations person that's correct okay now with regard to the design of the Interior roadway uh is it the intention for the school buses when they drive into the site to park in that roadway be it public or private and discharge uh students uh either in front of the school they're going to or into the property itself operations and our traffic engineer will test okay how about with regard to the length of the cuac street uh do you know how many school buses can fit on that uh Street go you know back to back back to front again our operations operations okay is that is the operations person here this evening yes they are okay thank you uh with regard to the comment number 18 I take it at some point in time you'll place on it the fire lane details which you haven't done as it yet I believe the fire lanes are shown on the ples okay maybe this is sloughing off onto operations uh but but do you an and if you can answer the question fine if you can't find again uh do you anticipate any members of the public uh ingressing the site and just simply walking around on the street or sidewalks operations okay now on page uh 12 in number 29 says the traffic impact study on page 8 indicates that once the magnitude of traffic to be generated by the site is known it is necessary to assign the traffic to the adjacent Street system the distribution of new traffic through the surrounding roadways is based upon the location of primary arterial roadways and major signalized intersections in existing traffic patterns now when you design this site and you uh provided the interior roadway for the buses uh did you anticipate that it would be necessary for buses to travel on Chandler Road as well as other adjacent roads in order to get to the site our traffic engineer will provide testimony okay was consideration ever given to constructing on the site a parking area where buses could simply pull in pull into the parking area discharge their students and once all the students have discharged drive off the property again our traffic engineer will discuss that as well as operations let me ask you this and I appreciate your responses to those questions but do not you as an engineer have an obligation to read the zoning ordinance read the comments with regard to parking and the like and try to design a project that comports with all of them rather than saying well we're going to have buses off the side on different roads but that'll be addressed by the traffic engineer not by me I worked with the traffic engineer and according to my discussions with him this design works and he'll go over how he came to that conclusion now going to page 13 under sub paragraph e the applicant shall provide testimony to indicate if the lighting will be on timers uh do you know if the lighting will be on timers uh again that's going to go to operations okay then it goes on to say pursuant to section 244 d160 l perin1 in pin the illumination provided by artificial Lighting on the property shall not exceed 0.5t candle beyond the property line whereas light levels on adjacent lot 68 exceed 0.5 foot campal and it says you're seeking a waiver for that now would you agree with me that one reason why uh an ordinance would require that certain lighting would be at a minimum would be to prevent uh light intrusion into the adjacent residential areas give me one second I'm just going to pull our lighting plan I'm going to pull our lighting plan so we can discuss that specific comment you give me one second sure excuse me one second can I ask you this do you intend to call as a part of your case a person who was an expert in the field of lighting no okay and I would have no further questions of him with regard to it since you acknowledge he's not an expert that was my testimony let's go further now we get to the interesting part on page 13 storage of solid waste and recyclable materials uh you have a section which says all uses other than single family shall be placed in medical receptacles and a with screen Refuge area do your plans reflect that can you specifically just again reference what comment you're talking about sorry can you specifically reference what comment you're talking about you know F1 I'm okay I think it was F1 F1 yes so we provided trash uh 10 x 20 trash enclosures on each lot and we outlined a detail on the size of them as far as is there a question about that okay then you go on to two and it says a 5 foot minimum with landscaping area shall be provided uh along the fence or wall enclosing the refuse area and none is provided would you agree to provide that uh 5 foot with Landscaping we provide it where we can uh I think in one specific instance uh there's a retaining wall which abuts the trash enclosure which is where we don't provide that well can't you relocate the thrash enclosure we we could not and and avoid any additional variances while maintaining the proper circulation for the trash enclosure uh on F2 uh a 5-ft minimum with landscaping area shall be provided along the fence or wall enclosing The Refuge storage area or as none is provided uh why can't you comply with that I think I just outlined that F didn't I just answer that question okay and and I take it that at some point in time you'll provide to the board that information which is requested on page 14 in sub paragraphs uh uh five and six can you clarify par can you clarify no I can I'm just reading what it says I don't understand the question no once you read it you can't understand what you read you you have to State the question for me to answer it let's go let's go on to Mr Yas just re rephrase the question if you can I'll go on to G uh we talks in terms of utilities it says that the applicant proposes to service the site with sanitary seore via a treatment plant on lot a along with several individual septic beds on all lots and of course it reflects the fact that it requires uh njde tww permit approval uh Ocean County Health Department and Jackson Township Municipal Utilities Authority appr approval and I and I need a little bit of help uh from you here uh is there in fact a water a sewer treatment plant located in Jackson I I I did not evaluate that so that's off site pardon me I I I don't I did not evaluate that so that's offsite so I did not well part of myview if you're if you're proposing if you're proposing to do this on site isn't the isn't it normal for projects such as this size if it's available to utilize the municipal uh sewage system did you explore how far it way was how far you'd have to run the lines do you do you have that number for us I believe that was a comment at the last hearing yes pardon there was a comment as far as where is a look close well they said it was too far away but do you know the exact distance I did I did uh um get the exact distance for the hearing par me I did I did pull the exact distance yes I don't believe I believe when I read the transcript it said it's far away it didn't give the feet or the distance uh approximately 11,300 ft and approximately 7600 ft okay so why why can't you rather than have this located on your property and with all of the not use the word dangers it could create to the environment why wouldn't you just simply run these lines out the municipal facilities and and utilize that there's two ways to address the issue regarding sewer um and our client picked to handle it onsite you client has chose to do it the cheaper way correct our client M made the determination pardon me our client made the determination so I'm not aware of the so you're you're not aware of his motor for doing it the way he's doing it you're able to make yeah you're able to do either War would you agree with me that the better and safer way and modern way of doing it is to connect the lines to the municipal system notem if you just rephrase a question Mr G yeah uh would you agree with me that one consideration which your client had was that it would be cheaper to put the systems on site rather than connect to the municipal system if you're able to answer the question if you can't answer the question say you can't answer the question I can't I can't answer the question for no now on G5 it says testimony shall be Pro should be provided regarding any anticipated impacts of the proposed Earth workor operations on the site upon existing Wells and septic systems in the immediate vicinity of the site that would mean Wells and Septic Systems off site on the adjacent Residential Properties correct that was a comment from the the board engineer so I don't know if that's what is in okay well if he he he's saying that it should be provided he's not saying it can be it may be he says testimony should be provided are you prepared to present that testimony we're not of not aware of any um septic systems or Wells that are immediately being impacted unless well you're not going to we're not allowed can I finish you're not going to know that until you either do a thorough engineering study or Andor you install your wells and at that point if if it fails it's too late correct that's not my testimony no okay and going to page 15 the uh the requested variances under a b and c uh speak for themselves do they not no they don't they don't speak for themselves we don't request any variances okay but it goes on to say in order to well they're saying you do but having said that applicant must demonstrate to the board's satisfaction that the action will relieve peculiar and exceptional practical difficulties or exceptional and undue hardship upon the developer of the subject property resulting from the strict application of the ordinance known as a hardship variance or granting a variance to allow departure from the zoning ordinance would Advance one of the purposes of the municipal land use law now you say you're not seeking any variances correct correct but I think you I think you said you were seeking approximately 15 waivers were you not 13 and if in fact the board determines that those waivers are not waivers but rather require a variance you'd have to satisfy uh those standards would you not right there there's there's ml but again this is going into planning this is outside my purview now going to uh page 15 and 16 and more particularly to uh sub paragraphs uh G and I don't know if you know the answer to this question but it says one of the goals is and then it goes on to say according to their respective to meet the needs of all New Jersey citizens then goes on to say to encourage the location and design of Transportation routes which will promote the free flow of traffic while discouraging location of such vehicles and routes which could result in congestion or blight but isn't it true that even in your own testimony and your own report you're not only going to be bringing bus traffic onto Chandler Road but it'll be in such volume that you got to try to incorporate adjacent arterial road so that you can get these buses uh onto and into the site that's not what I testify to well uh are the buses going to be able to Ingress and egress the site by solely utilizing Chandler Road there's going to be a traffic engineer that's going to discuss that okay now looking at Roman numeral 7 now the comment of Mr Peters is the applicant has provided no justification for the variant requests applicant is asked to address these issues within the context of the requirements for variance relief detailed above and I take it that this would also tie into whether or not this board were to review the approximately 15 deviations your seing from the zoning ordinance as to whether they would be variances or waivers but this saying that no justification for these requests now also goes on to say in order to facilitate the board's decision making process applicants are strongly encouraged to resolve as many items as possible prior to the pro possible prior to the hearing on this matter now with all of the comments of of the Mr CLE and Mr uh Peters and referring to as youve pointed out the numerous 15 waivers which you're seeking have you made any attempt to resolve these questions these comments yeah we address them in testimony at the last hearing okay but but I guess the transcript speaks for itself right it does yes okay now we then go on to can we take five minutes Mr chairman I mean how much longer do you have with this witness going to be another half hour at least with him half hour yeah okay I I'll go through with him you want me to go finish let's take five minutes then thank you thank you for tonight um M Mr gasowski will finish crossing the first witness and after that um Miss Jennings is it okay if we bring up the operations person before we cross yes that'll work thank you Mr garas agreed to that as well so we were going to bring up the operations testimony and then M Mr garas will have a right to cross both the operations and the architect okay so Mr I'm sure I didn't hear the last thing you said after after we hear the operations testimony you'll have a chance to cross the operations expert as well as the architect meaning you'll have a chance we're not you'll have a chance to cross the architect still I don't think you're going to get to the architect are you guess that's really up to again how many questions you're going to ask yeah okay so uh the the floor is your the floor is yours and you may proceed now my understanding is that with regard to the operations before I cross examine the board will have questions correct is that the way this works here okay okay well Set uh when I when I when I looked at the site plan drawings and some of the comments and whatnot I noticed that there are several uh paper streets located on the site is that not so adjacent to the site that's correct now did you make any attempt to determine who owns those paper streets I believe they're publicly owned pardon me my understanding of a paper street is that it's publicly owned okay do you have any any any documentation to reflect that or establish that I don't okay so it's possible that the underlying fee of those paper streets is owned by an individual who is either known or unknown sure it's possible yeah okay now would you agree with me that that if in fact those paper streets are owned by the municipality and they're a part of this plan and application do you know whether or not the municipality has joined in this application they're not part of the application well if they own the property if they own the paper streets uh they would be part of the application would they not because you're seeking uh those streets as a part of your application no no we're not pardon me no we're not okay well maybe we'll cross that bridge at a later time uh going forward on we're now at uh just so you're clear we're on we're on the uh comments of Owen uh little dated August the 16th of 2023 and we're on page uh three of 15 uh paragraph 3B uh the comment is the subject property will establish a new public road to access the three new lots and your position I think is that it's not yet been completely determined and I could accept that uh they go on to say the rationale of a new publicly owned and maintained roadway for the exclusive use of three private schools it is our opinion and we would recommend that unless otherwise approved by the board the proposed public RightWay should be established as a private road should the public road proposal be approved the final plat will require delineation of easement areas including all appropriate uh disclosures now uh do you understand the reason why uh the author would make that comment because as I understand it what he's really saying is that the only individuals or people who would utilize this proposed roadway would be those students and parents and staff members of this private school correct that's your interpretation I don't that's your interpretation I don't my interpretation of it and aren't they kind of saying that it's unfair for the general public to pay for what this proposed private roadway really is can you can you repeat that please pardon me can you repeat that question yeah in other words if this this roadway will be utilized continually by heavy school buses by cars by trucks and other things of that nature it would it not be uh accurate to say that over a period of time those road that roadway would wear down it would have to be repaired and maintained for example uh who would be responsible if it's a public roadway of snow removal during the winter time the public or this private school again that's not my perview that's part of operation okay also a comment is made in bullet point number two on page four uh it says the rationale of establishing the roadway along the easterly property line which would impose the front yard setback restrictions on the adjacent SL 64 and 68 the applicant should address centering the roadway on the Chandler Road Frontage uh is there any consideration given to that our traffic engineer will get into the the roadway and why it's designed additionally there's also a Gore area was mentioned earlier uh that's adjacent to the roadway okay going to grading and drainage and looking at B-1 b.1 the drawings indicate that the privately owned portion of the storm water management system must be privately maintained it appears that the township will be responsible for all drainage facilities within the public right away it is unclear how maintenance responsibilities will be distributed between public and private storm waterer flows as noted above we would recommend that the roadway be established as a private facility with which would clarify and clearly establish ownership and maintenance responsibilities of the roadway storm waterer management as well as all infrastructure improvements now my only request would be I guess that you as the engineer for the applicant discuss this with him so that when we come back perhaps we'll get a definitive answer as to whether it's going to be a public or a private road I know it's not your decision to make okay it's okay was there a question yeah you'll discuss it with your the owner that's not that that's not yeah okay now go on to page five it refers to Lighting in landscaping drawing sheets 50 through 54 of 87 details the street lighting installations which are proposed for the new Entrance Road The liting Proposal utilizes 19t High PS and LED lights and no engineering concerns are raised uh lighting design Associated will be concurrently submitted and indicated below and it goes on to say that we note street light Street trees are indicated along Chandler Road proposed light Frontage buffering will be discussed uh do you know whether or not it's the intent of the applicant uh to call a lighting expert to give testimony in this application if you if you know the answer to that I was asked an answer no no okay fine going on to page six it refers to utilities and discusses uh General comments uh in outlining the nature of the service it goes on to say as no specific detailing is indicated the applicant should address presumably uh the following and we have sub headings 1 2 3 4 uh is it your intention after reading that comment to readdress those issues and provide that information to the board's professionals I believe we provided testimony regarding most of these issues if there's any specific questions I can answer them okay uh going on to page 7 of 15 a question is asked will disposer field be specifically designated for Wastewater disposal associated with the lot upon which it is located or will overall Wastewater flow be distributed to disposal fields located throughout the three lots to be developed will cross easements for Wastewater disposal be required there will be easements on the adjacent Lots regarding the disposal Fields so in other words you believe it's the intention of the developer to transfer title to these three individual lots to end users rather than develop the site for his sole use that was not my testimony okay well uh would you agree that in order for this to work and there were three individual separate lot owners they would have to be uh Mutual cross easements executed in order for that to function properly there would need to be easements on each property okay would you agree that in order for this board to give proper consideration to this application those proposed cross easen should be prepared and put before the board's engineering staff as well as the attorney for their review prior to any decision being made no okay the next sub they have is it says what is the and these are questions these aren't questions I'm asking these are questions that the boards professionals are posing what is the nature of the wastewater treatment plans and proposed lot a it is assumed that wastewater treatment plant will be installed above ground what is the nature of the construction what are the proposed setbacks building Heights architectural treatments who will own the plant and will emergency backup power be provided was a will a licensed operator be required where will chemicals be stored specific details and disclosures associated with all sanitary sewers disposal should be added to the plan and indicated in the statement of operations now are you able to answer any of those questions you want to hit them one by one pardon if we hit them one one by one I can answer them okay you you want me to read it to you that'll help you out yeah I can I can determine what I can tell you whether or not I can address them or or at least answer them yeah okay now it says it's assumed that the water water Waste Water Treatment Plant will be installed above ground that's correct what is the nature of construction believe the Architects testified that it would be a similar uh facade to the school buildings okay what are the proposed setbacks setbacks are shown on the plan architectural uh treatments same thing as what I said earlier that they would be similar in nature to the other schools who will own that who will own that wastewater treatment plant there'll be an agreement between the three lot owners now when you said there'll be an agreement between the three lot owners has it been determined that there will in fact be three individual lot owners this will not be a project which is developed by one entity but rather the Lots will be sold off will have three SE three or four separately owned uh schools and lots is that what it's going to be that that'll be determined by the the I'm sorry that'll be determined by the applicant not by me well you're having three separate lots are you not yes so they could be owned by three different entities but again I don't know I don't know if the applicant is planning on operating all three schools or whether they're planning on selling them do you know whether he intends to disclose this to the board before they vote on this application relevant she irrelevant okay you know whether or not and I'm completely unfamiliar with this will there have to be a licensed operator uh to operate the treatment plant that's something we'll determine upon final design determine when upon the final design but aren you here aren't you here seeking approval and you're saying you don't have a final design yet and yet you're looking for this board to Grant you an approval hopefully that in the future you'll do it the right way we we've discussed this that this is being reviewed by the D by I think you went over the whole list of the different entities that are being reviewed why don't you need the approval of I'm still talking I apologize one other the time don't you need we we're discussing you you went over the list of the different entities that are going to review the water and sewer design they are going to review it if the structure that we're proposing is not large enough to handle the proposed sewage then we're going to need to come back to this board in order to get an amended approval I I don't follow that at all in other words you you're saying that you want this board to give you an approval before you've completed and received all your necessary approvals uh from the MUA from the d and or the like that's every single application I've ever worked on I've received approvals before we receive all final approvals well you know Jackson happens to be have a very sophisticated planning board they may seek that information prior to that time well that would be illegal the planning board only jurisdiction over the use of the property and the ordinance not other Outside Agency approvals well they they have jurisdiction over whether or not a treatment plan can be installed there they have jurisdiction as to whether or not they can say to this applicant we want you to tie into the municipal system and run those lines rather than give you approval no actually Mr G ask they cannot tell us that we have to tie into the public lines if we can demonstrate that we could do it by private Wells and private IC we are allowed to all right so if you want to keep the question let's go to number two say environmental if if you want to keep the questions uh to the treatment center and not the Outside Agency approval that would be uh okay the treatment facility sorry says specific details and disclosures with all sanitary sewage should be added to the plan and indicated in the statement of operations do you agree to do that yes as part of resolution compliance okay goes on to say environmental consideration individual Wells and septic systems are not typically provided with school developments do you agree with that or if you had experience where uh you've had Wells and septic systems in school developments have you ever done one before uh that individual Wells septic systems in a school Development I've gotten several approved by this board and the zoning board so it's something that can be done it can be done absolutely what's the basis for you're saying that Mr Jennings I just he's asking us the personal knowledge if the engineer has any personal knowledge he will be able to say if you don't then it is what it is I don't now it goes on to say that the applicant should address groundwater impact concerns associated with Wastewater disposal facilities three individual portable Wells and three individual fire protection Wells which are proposed and they go on to list what they want to see anticipated Wastewater flows water demand impacts on adjacent putable Wells uh providing water service to the surrounding residential develop with existing ground water levels be impacted do you agree to provide all of this information to the board's engine for them to review yes I I think I mentioned that we will address all of this as part of resolution compliance but you haven't done it yet no would you agree that all of us must be provided to them prior to this board being called upon to vote on the application I do not agree you don't agree why not I already went over I've I've in the I'm I'm going to guess I've I've worked on two to 300 different applications and I've never had to secure all Outside Agency approvals prior to board approval goes on to say will proper separation distances be provided between the properties disposal fields and the existing Wells the existing Wells presumably are those Wells on the adjacent property owner's property was there a question Yeah question is will proper separation distances be provided it's not my question it's their question there's a question mark after the end of their sentence I believe these are all standard requirements uh some of these are D requirements we went into the fact that these are going to be reviewed by the D the Department of Health and the Jackson mua so we went into that in detail all these different comments are fairly standard for these type of designs and we will comply with all these requirements I'm still talking um as I testified to previously we will agree to address every single one of these comments but as but as of this date this evening uh and since you're being cross-examined after giving your direct testimony that information has not been provided correct okay and just and this is sort of a question that you know it strikes me it says as adequate separation distance between the Wastewater disposal Fields basement areas existing in proposed Wells retaining walls and storm water management facilities as well as adjacent well has all of that as of this date been addressed I already answered that question what's the answer I already answered it you ask the court reporter pardon you could ask the court reporter well if this rephrase the question if you can rephrase the question my understanding is that there is certain information which has not yet been provided to the board so my question is with regard to the last question has you have you provided to the board's professionals the separation distance between the Wastewater disposal Fields basement areas existing uh proposed Wells and retaining ws and storm water management facilities have you done that that will be provided it will be provided thank you uh there's a comment being made uh as to whether you're prepared to have a geologist hydrologist testify uh has a decision been made with regard to that no now with regard to and I know this is getting into uh operations but uh go to page 8 of 15 uh where it says the applicant should address presumably that'll all be addressed by the operations man that's correct thank you Sim also with regard to the bottom paragraphs on page 18 once again that's a matter of uh operations correct that's correct and on the the top of page nine where they're talking in terms of food service Building Maintenance sign maintenance Recreation that's all going to be a part of the testimony of operations that's correct similarly on page 10 with regard to security also dealing with hours of operation and the like all uh operation correct uh yes the only thing I think that falls under my my purview is the electrical vehicle charging stations which we did provide and with regard to uh on page 10 paragraph 4 uh they they refer to uh a comment made by your traffic consultant and then questions to be posed but again that is outside of your expertise correct correct now go to page 11 of 15 it says the new roadway actually access to individual driveways in internal circulation aisles serving three school buildings drop off pickup areas and off street parking areas applicant should confirm adequate aisle width and turning radi provided throughout the three lots to be established as well as for student pickup and draw forth proposals including adequacy of stacking Vehicles now that's not really operations that's a part of site design is it not it's part of site design design but it's uh in coordination with the traffic engineer and the traffic engineer will answer that question also and C1 they refer to seeing deficiencies with regard to uh islands that do not meet this requirement can that be corrected where they say internal Island should be provided with a 10-ft minimum width and all curb radi 5T unless otherwise approved that goes into circulation uh we are asking for a waiver for that uh our traffic engineer to get into why we're requesting that waiver okay go to page uh 12 of 15 in subparagraph B uh is it your is it your testimony that all of those items will be addressed by the operations person as far as drainage basin access yeah as far as uh landscape screening I think that falls in my perview new ordering time strategies restrictive layers ownership inspection maintenance responsibilities as part of operations some of some of that falls in my perview some of being you have any response to any of those questions if you want to ask them individually I can answer them got a sub paragraph C it says all private storm waterer management facilities approved by the township require the submission of a written agreement subject to approval by the board attorney that future maintenance of the system shall be the responsibility of the property owner homeowners association or other responsible parties copies of the fully recorded documents shall be submitted prior to the signing of the development pl's commencement of any onsite construction uh should public bases be approved maintenance field be required do you do you agree representing the developer of this property to comport with in comply with all of those conditions yes go to page 13 of 15 it refers to lighting and Landscaping once again as part of operations I can answer some of these uh if you want to ask the questions individually some of these related to operations some of these are relating to Tactical design well for example off glare offsite glare impacts will there be testimony provided with regard to whether not there will in fact be offsite glare impacts by a lighting consultant or an engineer whomever it may be we provided a lighting plan that outlines the IES uh foot candles and if if there's any questions you're not you're not going to present any testimony with regard we already did you weren't here what we already did you weren't here you you say you say that you're the one who's competent to give that testimony we we have a site we have a lighting plan in our plan set and we provide a testimony regarding that who's going to provide who my this my question who's going to provide testimony with regard to the adequacy or the correctness of the lighting plan I am you are okay I have no further questions thank you thank you um before we go to the next Mr CLE do you have any followup or Peter Mr Peter is any followup thank you I just want to ask uh maybe just two short questions of my own number one is the size of the building for the water treatment plant believe it's on the plans as 41 by 85.5 is there any height to that building it's going to conform conform to the height requirements what are those requirements as far as the height um 35 ft so it'll be less than 35 ft high as an accessory structure meaning this is being classified in accessory structure correct yes Mr Peter is it an accessory structure in the R3 is that correct height 35 ft not for an accessory structure for a principal structure we say principal structures are typically less but this is was this was testified to as an accessory structure if I'm not mistaken the we could well I I don't know the reason I said I didn't have any F because I didn't know if we're going back and we're going to hear new testimony if they didn't provide testimony about the whole what's accessory to what and I'm not sure they did we'll leave it to Miss Jennings but we were here cross-examining his original testimony I don't have any notes that they talked about the planning issues relating to what was principal what was accessory what the structures were so if we haven't done that I'm not sure I want to cross-examine someone who hadn't testified to it I think closest we got to real testimony in that regard was that the structures would conform right I believe that Mr garousi did you know part of the conversation with this it was not in the direct testimony but I believe in the cross he it was it was mentioned that the it you know it's clearly incidental it's a clearly incidental use to the principal structures which are the schools did I is that correct that's correct I mean I think um we can discuss whether or not it's accessory or not I think it's really an accessory structure that's that is a function that functions along with the two principal uses which are their two buildings it could also be considered a principal building because I don't think there's a restriction on the number of principal buildings on on the property but I believe the setbacks you're using the accessory setbacks no we're we're using the principal setbacks understood so is this going to be a principle or an assessory structure for the matter of this application how are we going to classify that I I'll get back to you I'll look at the accessory height restrictions and just confirm that we can conform if if we can conform then we'll call it an accessory structure so just procedurally too um so you've indicated that we were going to get revised plans um and also a list of um comments that you'd be agreeing to just in in a maybe a correspondence or letter uh to the board um those two things do we have an ETA as to when we're going to get those um because I know that like you're going to have to put some testimony on as to the if you're going to flesh out the conceptuals for the final I mean we have to have testimony as to what's going to be revised on the plans do we have an ETA as to revised plans or yeah the only the only reason we didn't submit was because it was there wasn't enough time between the two hearings uh to get there 10 days prior so um depending on when the next hearing is you will try and get it in before the next heing 10 days part okay if we could um just given the fact this is a new year and there going to be a lot of holidays coming up we can get it in 20 days beforehand the statutory requirements 10 but if there's going to be I mean our board professional is going to have to review it um you know I'm going to have to review it so if we if we can do it 20 days beforehand that would be that would be great okay thank you um this Peter is is out the correct time to talk about the accessory or should we wait till different point I'm not going to tell Miss Jennings how to present her application I can tell you that the accessory setback requirements in the R3 zone are different than the principal setback requirements in the R3 Zone and which requ which setbacks is he using for that building again I'm I got so I believe there was a there's a previous comment regarding the setbacks which we did conform to the setbacks so the R3 Zone accessory just give me one second I'm looking up in the ordinance so accessory Building height is 25 ft which I I don't think we'll have a problem complying with thank you and I just want to confirm I heard correctly there no need for sidewalk because we're not going to anticipate any Walkers to this property sorry I just want to clarify that I heard correctly that we're not going to you're not going to be anticipating any Walkers to this property correct yes we're agreeing to contribute for sidewalks thank into the fund anybody else or next yeah you know just considering future could you consider putting in sidewalks for the general good because one never knows in the future there may be Walkers and you know instead of having to have children walking in the street I think it might be a good consideration uh and beneficial to the neighborhood if uh the uh developer could consider putting in sidewalks please we'll discuss it with the uh especially given especially given there is a retail strip I believe an ice cream store maybe a few hundred feet away no you never know a class trip to an ice cream store one thing I will note I don't believe there's any sidewalk along Chandler Road so that's where um you basically we don't want to put a sidewalk to nowhere but I'm sure you know you're response to that is going to say that you get to somewhere so I mean we can definitely look at it but I just want to kind of point out that Chandler Road doesn't have doesn't have sidewalks it doesn't have them now but if you're building something new let's put in what would benefit the area and safety issue I'm always thinking about safety thank you chairman sure I have a brief question it may seem counterintuitive but it um the applicant appears to want a uh variance free application so it's conforming but the the commentary seems to indicate that's really more of a driveway than a roadway so this is really for the attorney can a board if an applicant chooses not to apply for a variance because they're seeking variance free application that the condition is that there is a private roadway I was I'm just hearing today unless I missed it about this uh this conflict of utilities Crossing uh public Street and regardless of the other areas maintenance and and that kind of thing um is can that be a condition of approval that it it is what it appears to be a long driveway I mean if you think it through um so is there a mechanism to compel that to be what it appears a reasonable prudent person would say it should be situated as a private roadway um particularly with the the uh conflict of uh util that we're hearing tonight are you talking about the the utilities running underneath the roadway or or whatever he testified to he testified to the utilities running underneath the roadway um road so if they collapse yeah right and it's a public roadway then then the township is on the hook for going in and going into the you know the public road and and redoing the price Mr chairman and and just to finish and if you take it further actually you go ahead and then I have one fin apologize this might be premature but until we know the ownership of the road one of our one of our comments subsequent after we figure out what the design of the system is and all like that there's really no need for the water or sewer infrastructure to be in the paved area if you think about it when you live in a residential subdivision and there's houses on both sides you put the sewer in the middle of the street and you put the services to each side of the road you put the water 10t off the sanitary and you do the same thing you put the services to each side of the road here there's four buildings and they all go to that sewer treatment facility when they come out of the sewer treatment facility they can come up to the street stay on private property and if they have to cross the street they can cross in one location so while certainly the applicant could say yeah it's easier to put them in the street that's how we do it all the time the purpose of it isn't necessarily the generic engineering model of put putting stuff in the street because it Services both sides of the street here the building that's on the opposite side of the treatment plant could make one crossing under the street go back to the treatment plant the other three buildings can connect to it and when those pipes come out they can come out stop before the street go parallel to the street when they have to cross over to get to the leech Fields they can have one Crossing into the leech Fields so it would eliminate the Township's problem of we go out and we repave the road in 20 years and somehow because we're vibrating using a vibratory roller we mess up one of their pipes now it's the town's responsibility fix a private system from a strict engineering perspective I don't think there a need a requirement a specific reason to put those utilities under the asphal and at some point we would ask the applicant can you get him the hell out of the the assal thank you the the followup to that is in this town or any town where this request was made where you have to go to a governing body whichever governing body may be and the request is rejected what's the legal mechanism what what then happens they go back to a board for Relief uh if they don't get that relief in the municipality yes so so my understanding of it is that if you try if you attempt to dedicate something um again I'm not the township attorney but just for my interaction with it um a couple times um if you dedicate something to the township and the township either Council or mayor whatever ordinance is associated with it depending on the form of government as well um if they don't approve it um they don't accept it then whatever they're trying to do is got to come back to the board and they got to you know revamp everything to get a different type of approval so and then just circling back and there may not be an answer tonight but if the applicant does not want to ask for that variance regardless of where whether it makes sense or not to anybody in the room or everybody in the room can a board have that as a condition of approval or is that simply not a legal meod I mean it would be it would be built into the I mean yes we could ask it as a condition but we could also it also um I like that song um it also can be it's pretty much it's already built in the resolution because if they're if they're dedicating it as a public Road therefore no as a private road well if they don't ask for a variance can we force them to accept the variance yeah exactly well no so so if they're not if they don't request a variance what happens is that if they go to dedicate the road or don't build it to the township specs or whatever the case may be and the township doesn't approve it um they would have to come back for a private road and get the variances that's not the per of the board that's theie that's that's the applicant the applicant's responsible for obtaining the uh dedication even even though it's kind of beholden to the town to accept it or not thank you yeah sure Mr Brey yeah I have a couple of questions when we get these new plans um is there going to be decision from the applicant if they're applying as a Township Road or a private road are we going to know at that time I think it's important we know mhone on when we get the new plans are we going to have a decision from the applicant if they're applying as a public Road or a private road especially the private road you're going into variances so I think we need an answer at that time agreed so we're working on it I'd like to know the answer myself thank you also on the septic building or the septic system or the tanks and so forth in it normally when we see a a building a treatment center we get a drawing of how it functions where it goes how it goes into the tanks how it gets cleaned before it goes to Lee Fields and stuff along with all the functions of it and does it have a generator we have those answers at that time too I think it's very we need that yeah we should have that by then um I I know we can't do nothing legally but I always have a concern when you have maybe three separate owners in the agreement for a septic system agreements can fall apart arguments whatever and it's something that we have to look at at that too but my whole problem with this right now there's so many things from my viewpoint I'm not an attorney I'm not a engineer I see so many things on this thing as just concept now years ago land use boards used to have concer meetings between the applicants professionals and now professionals get an idea where they're going didn't never voted on it I don't see how with all the concepts un answer stuff we can really move forward you might have the answers but I think we need them thank you um I just got I got one legal question slash um kind of applicant question so does the applicant intend to get into developers agreement or handle the um the independent facilities by way of uh Association or something like that is there we right so there would be a homeowners association established for um the actual facilities the private facil for the up of the okay Township would have an address to go to if you know shall there be any isues correct one more thing back to the uh treatment station we've had this before come up and I think we had the answer I'm not sure if we can check it out from Miss Jennings and Bob Shay here I believe something of that size constitutes a licensed monitor on it at all times I think that's important I have a question too and I know we can't force you to do nothing here I just have a question you said you applied to the way you let them know you were doing uh septic and Wells and you didn't receive a letter back when you appli them you did you ask if you could hook up to their system if you would like it to no we submitted the septic design we also had discussions with them where the closest facilities would be located which is the the two miles away yeah yeah and I realized the expense in two miles of septic lines and they might have to add a pump station to it or whatever but did you ask them if you could up if you decided to do so we we didn't get any formal determination from them if if we were going to do that type of extension ask him if you could hook up to it I don't believe we asked just because of the distance we we didn't get you should least ask so you know what options you have we we can discuss that we try it is this property in the sour service area uh off hand I don't know if I have that in front of me I could I could come back and get an answer for you on that little hint that uh that would be the 208 system correct I believe that r3s and Jackson are not in the SE service area some are correct someone I'm sorry the applicant doesn't know he doesn't know if it's in the SE service area correct the engineer doesn't know because that would make a difference also if you would file for qmp yes yeah I don't have it I don't have it offand uh I don't have the map with me I could I could provide that the next when I when I subit revised plans uh just pause uh do any of our professionals no I'm assuming you probably do already with enough specificity to answer it okay 100% here but certainly both Mr Henry and I will have that answer for the board at the next hearing all right and last question would be is the applicant aware of any budget analysis of running two miles of line did you do any financial analysis on that we did not okay thanks Mr pry if the applicant asked the MUA if they could hook up to the system they would inv them if they're in 208 or not that's a simple answer so I think we have to get that thank you okay now your next witness could I have a follow-up question Bas sure sure uh one one question I have is with regard to this sewage tratment facility it is in fact a freestanding building is it not yes and you're describing it as being an accessory building yes well it may be accessory possibly to the uh School building which is on that individual lot but it's also servicing all of the other uh three schools perhaps located on the other Lots is it not does that not then make it a primary building a primary use I I think that's more of a planning question than for an engineer uh but it is servicing the other Lots it's servicing it's adjacent to only it's adjacent to only one building on one lot but it in fact is servicing the two other Lots as well it's not accessory to those lots it's the same thing as if you had aible use is it not it's the same thing as if you had a storm management Basin you know similar like we have a storm management BAS located on adjacent on on lot uh C that's servicing the roadway not just servicing Lot C so it's the same kind of thing where you have a stormwater Basin located on S Lot C that's servicing the public right away so it's the same kind of thing as far as and then also having the septic fields located on the other Lots it's very similar in that fashion aren't most stormwater basins located on individual Lots it it's designed all different ways we there's e it's signed all different ways yeah so there's there's sometimes there's easements on adjacent Lots there's easements for stormw basins there easements for storm water pipes there ements for sanitary sewer pipes depending on how you design the property yeah but for zoning purposes for setbacks and or that you like isn't it always treated as a principal use what pardon what what's what's considered the Bas storm weather Basin if if you're having your storm weather Bas Bas usually aren't considered a use at all they're not considered I they're not considered a use at all they're usually considered a feature of the site with regard with regard to B structure with regard to the Sewer treatment facility what's the square footage of that building yeah M Mr gaski let me let me just cut you off so um why don't we reserve these questions for when the plan comes out so that the engineer has the ability to to answer them with specificity as to the revised plans okay I just have perhaps then one last question and I would apologize if I'm seeing being a little sarcastic about it but you indicated that one reason why you haven't addressed uh some of the issues that were raised during the last hearing when you gave testimony correct you didn't have time to do it to make those changes right there we didn't have enough time to revise the plans and submit them 10 days prior but weren't all of the very same issues raised in the review letters which I initially referred to back in March so you've had April May June July August September October November you have eight months you've had eight months to address these issues and you have it no revised this is the this is revised plans from the March letters so there were a full set this was originally a four lot subdivision not a three lot subdivision you went from four lots to three lots but you didn't you didn't remove all of the 15 waivers did you you didn't provide 13 let me finish 13 I'm sorry 13 not 50 and you didn't provide final plans with regard to many of these items but you referring to conceptual plans you've had nine months to take going from conceptual to a final plan and you haven't done that you're back before the board this evening and you still haven't done it I think I think that was more of a statement but yeah so so uh you ready for your next uh it was a statement of outrage thank you we will be stopping at 10 o'clock tonight so another 35 minutes come on now every lot a lot of uh lot of people have uh prior commitments I'm sorry it's been long Mr Mr rard will uh will walk out on us if let her go you know in January you're going to tell us you don't want to be reappointed after all that no it is my [Music] pleasure don't it thank you please raise your right hand do you affirm that the testimon information questions or comments you present will be the truth all truth nothing but the truth thank you please state your name spell your last and your credentials please Benjamin diamond diamond like a diamond ring d i a m o n d and your credentials to testify he's a fact witness fact witness thank you if you could uh Mr Diamond could you just describe your role in the project sure I'm a consultant I uh do pre-construction as a contractor for uh several schools in my uh history also I was the manager of operations of a large private school system in Long Island on a uh board member basis continuance as well and i' so I've been involved in the education field since 2008 okay and you've been working with the applicant with respect to this particular project yes and you've discussed with them the various operations questions that have been raised by the board's Consultants definitely most of them okay and if you could why don't we start with the boy High School located on lot a and just kind of describe the hours of operation the capacity arrival times Etc sure the boys high school uh located in lot 81 was designed for 165 students the hours of operation Sunday through Thursday are 7:45 AM to 10:30 p.m. I sincerely apologize could you ask the witness to at least follow along one of the documents you've submitted so that we can verify that it's correct he just started off with a school with 160 something students 170 can we just refer to the lot whether it's A1 just something so I can follow we said lot A1 we started with the boys high school okay thank you should I continue I think so are are you with us or no okay I I think I was up to arrivals typical arrival time is 7:45 a.m. departures I'm sorry 165 ahead continue okay M Jennings you may proceed what floor is yours yeah no I I'm sorry continue departures are scheduled and staggered the 9th grade is set to depart at 9:30 p.m. 10th through 12th grades at 10:30 p.m. Friday has an early dismissal with 9th grade grade being dismissed at 12:15 p.m. 10 through 12 at 12:30 p.m. general transportation is handled by three school buses with Car drop off being up to 10% no Walkers are anticipated general staff of 12 staff members was staggered arrival the kitchen facilities at this campus are for warming only deliveries are handled by one to two vans weekly and two to three box trucks approximately 20 foot normal delivery sized trash is handled through weekly pickups and the school year is typically 11 months let's move on to the next school okay the boys elementary schools have similar characteristics they're located on Lots A2 and C1 the Elementary School at lot A2 is designed for 712 students this is based on the Assumption of three classes per grade with an average of 27 students per class the boys Elementary School unlock C1 is designed for 776 students again with three classes per grade with average students per class ranging from 27 to 29 gener hours of operation are anticip are anticipated to be 7:30 a.m. to 5:15 p.m. similar when it comes to arrivals they are staggered with prek through fifth grade arriving at 8:45 a.m. 6th through 8th grade arriving at 7:30 a.m. departures during the week are prek 3:30 p.m. 1st through third grades 400 p.m. 4th through 6th grade 4:30 p.m. and 7th through 8th grade at 5:15 p.m. Friday dismissal is slid back earlier prek through 2 grade are at 12:15 p.m. 3rd through 5ifth grade 12:30 p.m. and 6 through 8th 12:45 p.m. Sunday dismissal is as follows prek and first grader at 1: p.m. second to third grade 1:45 p.m. 4th through 6th grade are at 400 p.m. 7th through 8 at 3 p.m. similar to the other schools no for transportation no Walkers are anticipated buses will be utilized as the predominant means of transportation with 10 buses servicing the schools drop off by vehicular traffic is assumed to be no more than 10% staff per school is 81 total teachers arrival times are split with half the staff in the morning and half in the afternoon adjusting for the judaic studies and General Studies kitchen and maintenance staff arrive two hours prior to opening and remain to approximately 2 hours after close the school year similarly 11 months cooking is anticipated to service the school use only with a cafeteria designed to service the school's needs deliveries for each School are similarly anticipated one to two Vans weekly and two to three box trucks with trash pickup occurring weekly l b contains the girls Elementary School designed for 810 students three classes per grade with an average of 27 to 30 students per class hours of operation are anticipated to be 9:00 a.m. to 400 p.m. the school arrives at 9:00 a.m. with departure staggered prek through 2nd departing at 3:45 p.m. 3rd through 5th at 400 p.m. 6th through 8th at 4:15 p.m. Friday dismissal again is adjusted forward prek through 2nd 11:30 a.m. 3rd through 5th 11:45 a.m. 6 through 8 12 p.m. no Sunday school is anticipated for the girl school transportation no Walkers buses are expected to be 11 for each way of travel drop off has been accounted for for up to 10% 81 total staff members are anticipated teachers arrivals and departures are split with half in the morning and half in the afternoon kitchen maintenance staff are 2 hours prior to opening and will remain 2 hours after close with a 10-month school year cooking is anticipated as an on-site school cafeteria designed specifically to meet the school's requirements deliveries are similarly anticipated 1 to two Vans weekly and two to three box trucks with weekly trash pickup uh so just a few General General points of clarification the buses are kept offsite they are not kept at school once the students are dropped off buses go on to continue other routes as you can hear from the hours they're staggered and we allow for the buses to complete more than one route the trucks here at just for a point of clarification are referred to as a standard 20ft box truck that I know that there was a question in terms of lighting typically both for for uh being a good neighbor as well as for economic concerns and for Energy Efficiency exteror Lighting systems are typically set up with school control systems to scaleb lighting to code minimums when the schools are not in operation and that applies to both exterior and interior lighting um I think the other General comment was regarding nursing Services different schools operate differently some schools have nurses on staff while other schools incorporate utilizing emergency medically trained and qualified professionals who already on staff and if you could touch on some of the questions that were raised were uh site maintenance who's going to be responsible for the parking areas the sidewalks the Landscaping Etc yeah every every school operates slightly different but they have similar similarities in that every school has its own maintenance staff um either and address these items either through direct employees or through contracted vendors to handle all the required maintenance both inside the buildings as well as the site maintenance and and if you could touch on uh proposed site security how that's going to work site security obviously uh in the community is is a very sensitive very sensitive topic um all the schools that I've been involved with usually engage third party Security Consultants and work with their Partners in local and state law enforcement depending on the uh climate in nature as well as conjunction with federal law enforcement to design appropriate uh both hard and soft security measures necessary to keep the student safe and if you could the schools themselves are they going to be all year round or are they going to be any form of summer camp so all the schools on this site were were designed for a ex a typical school year in our community with a break associated with each of the schools so the girl schools a 10mth schedule and the boy school's 11mon schedule okay and one are those breaks primarily uh typically around August okay and then during the holidays in the fall we have lots of holidays so we plenty of holidays in the fall uh again in the spring and a sprinkling throughout the rest of the year okay and what type of classes are part of the curriculum so all the schools are typically set up with both judaic and gen General Studies uh depending on the grade level the intensity of the judaic and the balance of the General Studies is shifted as a appropriate to the age and the development of the children okay um that's all the direct questions I have um just to um go down the procedural route for the for the fact witness U the way of the testimony so did you put this um statement of operations together or are you just reading it as as a fact witness to what's on the paper I was involved in the discussions I did not compile it personally who compiled it the app applicant yeah okay and then when it comes down to yeah when it comes down to um know what I will leave that up to the board that's fine that's all I got Mr Peters any questions for the applicant um just some housekeeping to start um there was a revised statement of operation submitted um on the second page under the boys high school lot A1 the total capacity of the schools listed as 153 students although the plans indicate 165 and the testimony this evening was 165 if for the next meeting we could get that number corrected yeah we will Mr Diamond um thank thank you for your clear and concise testimony was helpful to follow along um I had one arithmetic comment and it may not be you but since you went first you get to be cross-examined first on the second page the girls Elementary School on Lot B it indicates that um the school drop off time is 9:00 a.m. we're going to have 8810 students 10% of which will arrive by car so that leaves us 729 students and we're going to take care of them with 11 buses that would require the buses to have a capacity of 66 students so I I don't know if that's an inconsistency because the other schools have staggered drop off times but this particular one I don't need an answer now because I'm not sure who helped prepare this but that arithmetic doesn't seem to make sense um again since you went went first we'll ask you first the number of school buses that was decided for this statement of operations was that based upon use at a different facil a similar facility um was that just saying that most school buses have the capacity of 42 to 46 kids I'm I'm trying to understand where the number of buses came from so whether I I get that information from you or the owner or a traffic person I'm trying to understand how we said well this is the number of buses that this site's going to generate answer you can't answer yeah I would defer to the traffic engineer on that I'm sorry I'll defer to the traffic engineer on it okay um would you have an understanding of where you Pro where you expect the students to be Bust from in terms of municipalities and the reason I ask is this is a private school correct correct so students from Jackson Township probably won't be taking Jackson Township buses and Lakewood Township students probably won't be taking Lakewood Township buses to get here correct correct so I want to understand if the number of buses made a presumption that every bus is going to be full how did you get to that point without knowing where they were being drawn from and I know I'm this may be a little more technical then I'm sure it was discussed with your group if you have someone from Freehold Township you expect a a student from Freehold Township to get on a bus and end up getting 41 other students before they show up to a school which is 5 minutes from the free old Township border similarly with perhaps Howell Township where a certain number of students will get on but it won't be a full bus of students I'm I'm trying to understand that we just take the number of students and divide it by the maximum capacity of the bus and say that's how many buses we have because from a transportation perspective I think that's too conservative I think I don't think think that every single bus that's going to show up to this school at this location is going to be full and so while I'm not asking you to respond or defend that position this evening I'd like to put it on the record that it appears that this revised statement of operations presumes that every bus that shows up at the site will be full and so I guess I'd like some testimony in since you're doing the the operations can someone explain to the board tonight or at a subsequent meeting what the anticipated draws someone's going to build a school with 700 students or 775 students or 800 students or 150 they're going to have an idea of where the students are coming from and if they're not going to be able to get that draw on full 45 student buses you're going to have more buses showing up to this site so that's my real concern and that's the that's the question I'm going to be looking for an answer to subsequently please that's all I have for right now Mr chairman thank you thank you now um you know back to the busing for a second um who arranges the buses to come or you know when they come who which children go on them or don't go on them typically the schools make the arrangements for the buses the bus state of New Jersey that's not how it works unfortunately um it's actually the board of education in each municip pality does now the Board of Education in Jackson Township had you know we there's something called mandated transportation and non-mandated transportation and mandated child lives for ele on the elementary school level lives two plus miles away from school a non-mandated child lives under two miles away from school a mandated a non-mandated child is typically referred to in the Board of Education world as a walker because the township will not transport them Lake Township has a very different setup with the Lakewood student Transportation Authority that does not apply to Jackson that doesn't that does not exist in Jackson meaning any child under two miles away from school would be classified as a walker and we already testify no one's going to be walking no one's going to be taking sidewalks so these children are not on a bus and these children I mean we're not we can't allocate these children to buses which will be handled by the Board of Education and we cannot allocate these children as Walkers because we testify there will there be no sidewalks there'll be no Walkers it's not safe for Walkers Etc so we just have to really figure out our numbers how these children are going to get to school um the next we're we're we're good so far I would just I would just point that it's not uncommon many jurisdictions have similar situations and many private schools have moved to offering private transportation as an amenity for the parents you name any Hebrew Academy of Na County offers private I I said specifically in the state of New Jersey very similar Transportation guidelines school districts have the same cut offs where the districts are required to provide transportation outside a certain distance and it is comment upon the parents to arrange for transportation underneath certain mileage so parents pay out of pocket it's not a tax service they pay out of pocket to facilitate the transportation of the students who are deemed in the walking distances to fortunately Jackson Township do not offer that so also it's a subsidized by the state situation and uh having been involved in private education for 40 years I can tell you busing is the biggest pain in the neck for parents and townships and schools so we really need a a better handle on how this is going to happen further I'm not at all pleased with the nursing situation could you please go over that again because we do also have safety is Major and and you're telling me there is not going to be a nurse in every one of these buildings I can't make that determination I'm simply relaying what variety of different schools those schools that I'm involved with have have nurses on on staff are these schools going going to have nurses on staff that's my question the end user who ultimately is operating the school will be making that final determination the end user will make that determination prior to our making a decision so well we don't have the tenants right now so that's not really something that we could definitely say but for safety's sake building a school we need to know there will be proper health facilities in each one of these buildings and I think you need when you come back which we know is going to happen uh we we need that determination made prior to our making a decision please that Mr jar yeah um I guess I'm just piggy back off Dr Campbell for a second um we had a previous application a couple schools ago where similar questioning arose and we it was mentioned by one of the professionals that there is um most private schools and public schools there is state grants when it comes to nursing really the question we had was is the plan to have a um a a private school that's going to tap into whatever funding and if there obviously are nursing which I think every single private school in New Jersey does have usually get nursing grants making sure that we're following the guidelines of whatever guidelines exist for private schools understood now um just really you know we brought up Nasa County a few times to any schools in ASA County follow such a schedule of the starting end times start and end times yeah is it common uncommon the start and end times that you're you'll see over here yeah it's common so in Nasa County they have 7:45 a.m. to 10:30 p.m. for boys high school yeah correct and you'll have um sixth grade Etc start start and end at these times yes and how could the board how could the board be assured that that these times will be stuck to because if any future traffic studies are based on the statement of operations how could you know again we have a fact witness here who you know is not necessarily discussing any of the local schools how can the board be assured that the that these times will be stuck to if any of if any traffic assessments are based on this you know on these start and end times meaning you have uh let's say you know take Friday for example I don't know of any school personally again I'm not I don't know of any you know I don't know much I'm not an expert for that um some grades end at 12:15 some at 12:30 and some at 12:45 you know Mr Bry knows more schools than me but you know again I'm not you know I I don't know if that's a common place among schools um I don't know if it's common you know my Children's Schools don't have such timing but again I I know of two schools I don't know of you know I I don't know of every school how can we be assured that whatever school will eventually move into this property will follow these times I would just say I guess you could make it a condition of the approval and it just becomes an enforcement thing like anything else was that the limit that the board can ask or is that something that can be filed with each of the individual Lots I leaving it for enforcement is is the town's got to go and and stand outside and make sure someone does what they said they were going to do is it something to help us put a little more meat on the enforcement bone please I mean I guess it could be the same way as some of the uh schools that have gotten the parking exceptions where they going to once a year acknowledge this is our timing so I guess once a year uh they could also do the same thing when the semester starts reaffirm this is our start and stop times I have a better I have a better idea the the way typically Transportation works is the Board of Education handles it that means every school the Board of Education sends it buses at an at a specific time can there be a deed restriction or something that if any that if any of those don't match up you know well I wouldn't do it by a deed restriction because that runs with the land and then anytime you want to have a change it's not that you go to the planning board you have to go to court to get rid of a deed restriction so that would make it very cumbersome and restrictive on the property for no good reason they could have another school that comes in and and takes over the property and they could always come to the board and say look we don't operate we're not an Orthodox Jewish school our kids are going to go to school from 9:00 to 3 we want it have relief from the conditions of the timing that was agreed to by this applicant that would be the proper thing to do uh when I looked at the plans I didn't see uh lab science rooms in the high schools no lab Sciences typically not it's usually done as part of whatever science work is done is done inside the classroom no chemistry lab no biology Labs correct no physics Labs correct and where are the playgrounds there on the plans depicted they absent of uh basketball courts and and concrete and structured play areas right the there are open areas for the children to play but no formalized structured play environments for prek you don't have formalized structured fenced play areas I I tell you education I taught from first grade to 12th grade in private schools I know schools and I know what children need they need play areas and they need safety and they need restricted play areas so that they can't be wandering understood we'll review it please do thank you so just to go back to that point so do you do you have a laser pointer are you familiar with the plans at all I don't have a laser point okay if you can just so that we're all aware of what we're talking about here just so the record be clear um you are familiar with certain areas on the plan that are going to be designated children play areas right correct okay can you just identify them at least so the record is clear as to you as the operations fact witness can say here is where 2500 kids are going to play you know or they are coming back maybe they could I'm just I'm just saying I I think it would be best as the plans get revised for those to be clearly delineated sir I got I have one thing to add to that not only we they're going to play I'd like a reference where you have it set up to play and where the Lee Fields are if you have to use your septic system say that again I'd like to know where they're going to be playing in relationship to the Lee Fields if you use your septic system understood chair I have a question sure the gentleman's testifying operations and I think he let off with Public Safety or safety being number one am I right am I correct okay so um and the attorney indicated they don't have tenants yet so for whether it's the board or the public or even a potential tenant Public Safety would be primary for the kids so that which is the reason of my question this is a um it's an isolated area it seems to me with a long driveway whether it's public or private or whatever term you're going to use for it so my question is and the answer I'm not necessarily asking for the answer today in public it may be a health welfare safety Dynamic that is more an executive item or a um an item that require some confidentiality if I'm a tenant and I'm going to have have a school here I would want to know what would happen if that very long road is blocked off whether it's a natural event or it's a man-made issue we have multiple Wars going on in this world right now it's very very tragic if that is blocked and that and my school needs to be evacuated evacuated fast do I have any other egress and maybe there is and how are the fire police EMS if that roadway is shut down either by some type of weather event or just or purposeful uh uh terrorism whatever it may be whatever it may be blocked so there's no there's no in or out of there you cannot get in you cannot get out of there and you're essentially trapped in that area now if I'm a potential tenant and I'm thinking of whether I want to have a school here is there a is there a pathway or something else for example 195 and maybe it's the the um the grass pavers where it's clearly not a street but it's an Ingress egress for evacuation as an example um can you or or just from the from from what's on the you're familiar with this map right yes okay is there any other r or erress except for that street right now not delineated no okay what do you mean by that not identified yet I understand the point okay so the whether it's a tenant that that that would contemplate the very same thing because it's a long it strikes me as a very isolated area where if there is some type of dynamic going on you may not even hear it right and fire police and EMS may not even get be able to get in there so for example whether it's this is a engineering question um how are whether it's out on run 95 and perhaps that a state perhaps it's a state approval process but if you are trapped on that on that plot of land where are you going if you cannot go anywhere that's the open question for you I think it's very important for a tenant um not just the board and the public well so there's no answer needed because I think it's really more life health safety like right now publicly but I think that's a really key issue on the health side and if that requires a Outreach to NJ doot of some type of pav system or some other type of egress because if I'm a tenant and nobody's coming in or out and my children have to get out and they have to get away where are they going and maybe there is a plan for that but if there isn't a plan for that that's clearly articulated I think that's a significant significant issue whether it's this year or any other year so I just want to put that put that question on the table for you sure Mr heler yeah this is regarding meal prep I might have missed this but are you planning on cooking daily every school is doing their own cooking operation or is it going to be delivered Sor talk on the microphone please sorry the food prep um is every School individually going to be cooking daily breakfast lunch however it's going to work or are you going to have deliveries for that the boys high school is a warming kitchen so the assumption is deliveries for the food for for the boys high school and the elementary schools will have a a kitchen with cafeteria so they will be cooking daily correct so there will be deliveries for the vo High School daily correct I believe you did say I think it was only once or twice a week one to two Vans and two to three trucks okay I think you might be underestimating the deliveries for this place one to two times a week per school I don't see that five times a week right one one to two Vans and two to three trucks two to three trucks covers a delivery daily just of varying sizes okay and the trash pickup as well you said that's weekly it's probably going to be more like daily so uh with this large amount I don't see it being once a week CH chairman so you my question is you're saying a maximum of up to 25 200 students correct so that that will never change even if the schools change hands the build size of of the buildings is designed for that capacity that's so that's a Max design without any significant changes it can't accommodate more um what is your total staff for the whole the whole school teachers custodians office staff maintenance guidance the whole nine yards left my calculator home give me one second around 255 260 total say it again please around 255 to 260 total okay so that's let's say 260 individuals um you have 165 high school students so how many of them do you think you'll be driving the kids don't drive to school they're not allowed to none of them none of them okay I'm new here so I'm learning um so we have at least enough parking for all the staff that's a lot of cars yeah we meet the parking requirements okay um what else do I have here um is there any possibility of a dedicated fire lane I'm building off of his statement there which is excellent if you have a panic situation you have staff and and parent parents coming in and out how do you plan on having specific access for emergency purposes or even an ambulance well the site engineer talked about the access around all the buildings that'll be there but not this question that Mr wall raised is uh not been addressed we have to come back and address that okay um yeah so it's it's a little concerning that you don't have sidewalks and of people trying to get in and out so and I know we've we've we've beat that pretty good uh my only question is and I don't know if you have the ability I'm just curious you have a pump station a processing station where would the leech field be going well that would be a more appropriate question for the site engineer he can come back up and answer that once we're done with this witness very good thank you thank you any other questions for the board M Mr chairman yeah over here oh Mr C sorry a problem um it's been a long night um I think you indicated uh relating the sight lighting that you know as a courtesy to the the neighbors of the surrounding area that you're going to turn off the lights or the lights is going to be reduced at at night time I said that all lighting is typically reduced to code minimums so if sight lighting by by code has to remain on it will remain on but in terms of building lighting whatever lighting can be shut off is is typically shut off so the parking lot lighting would be on whatever is required by code the concern is that um say a light at one of the driveway entrances it serves two purposes one to light the driveway the private driveway into the um into the facility but it's also used to illuminate the public roadway so if that light is turned off um then is the road properly illuminated again it kind of speaks to that public private who's responsible for what understood that's why I I I use the clarification in accordance with code so if it's needed for roadway lighting it wouldn't be shut off right but the um parking lot lighting even after hours is that going to be on also it's typically reduced right thank you but there there is you're holding the high school boys are there till 10:30 that means 11 by the time they get out of there and the staff and the maintenance people get out of that's late lighting so that's going to have to be illuminated well for safety sake correcty I I have a question I I don't know the answer you may does the applicant own any other property along that roadway in that they could build an emergency lane or something to it to that anything they can widen that with I mean the point comes up is you know for any reason a fire anything or bus broken out and the ambulance can't get in or something there has to be another way for emergency vehicles to get in there I don't know if the applicant owns any other property along there if they can do something to make like a shoulder pavers whatever but some sort of access to that I think is very important but I don't know what's available okay um so I would say that uh one of the entity zones that lot 46 that was part of the Eis and was originally going to be part of the project but there's Wetlands so that was a problem we couldn't really figure out how to use the lot so it would connect to everything um but we'll take another look at that I have no idea what the procedure would be if it's possible back out to 195 somewhere even I have no idea idea what that would take with the state federal I have no idea but something to look into I think yeah we can certainly take a look at it I'm not sure if the topography would uh allow that but uh we can certainly take a look at it it's all good suggestions we at least designing something along the township paper streets figure out somewhere to connect the ones that were causing a problem any other questions to the board Mr Herer did we address the external PA systems in all the schools yet speakers dismissal Bells different times was that address it was not you want to elaborate if there are going to be those sound systems externally for Neighbors at night you said 10:30 is it going to be a bell sounding yeah for the boys high school there would definitely not be any external Bells going off at 10:30 at night t t typ typically the upper schools uh conduct themselves slightly different than the younger schools and the later hours are not driven bya Bell System okay but the other schools probably will have right morning afternoon I I would assume that the that typical elementary schools have a bell system okay 7:30 in the morning usually not 7:30 in the morning people people generally know that they're arriving at school they don't usually need a bell for for the arrival Mr Bry yeah it if we want to wrap it up um and we'll just keep it open for rest of board questions uh next time if the board is amendable to that I know that a couple of us have hard fast deadlines our secretary has to be home so yes we we need her to accept the position in January again and she also you don't want to get her upset yes and just to uh put it on the record that Mr garasi will be able to cross yeah so this WI the public also has the public as well correct so at this point I'd like to move we do not we did not adopt our 2024 calendar yet so we've been carrying all the meetings until the I believe the January 8th reorg meeting it will not be heard on January 8th but it will be moved to the January 8th for scheduling purposes only um Mr Shay you want to ask about waving time yeah so the million dollar question Miss Jennings does the applicant wave time uh to allow us to get this heard another date uh yeah but hopefully we're not going to get a hearing date too far out from January 8th we've going at this over a year now soon as we possibly again we will we will do that thank you very much thank you okay thank you so um one second at this point we like to move this application sorry let me read it off uh block 801 lot 6263 34 CH chanler Holdings LLC will be moved to the January 8th meeting for scheduling purposes only I have a motion to move so moved all in favor I thank you may please have a motion to close all right have a Happy Thanksgiving everybody all in favor I thank you