it stands one nation under God indivisible liberty and justice for allk you in compliance with njsa 10 column 4 the open public meetings act notice of this public of this regular meeting of the Jackson Township planning board was published in all appropriate locations mayor a roll call please Mr binstein here Mr Harring Mr Hower Mr rker here Mr Sullivan here Mr marom here Mr trammer Mr wall Dr Campbell here Mr Herman here thank you now do we have any uh minutes for tonight six December no November 6 November we're not in December yet please have a motion for the minutes of the December 6th 2023 meeting motion second roll call please uh eligible to vote Mr wall yes Mr uh Sullivan yes uh Mr marom yes and Dr Campbell yes thank you thank you um I don't believe there are any resolutions for tonight let um no no resolutions thank you hopefully we'll have it for the next time um may I please have a motion for the voucher for the recording secretary meeting second all in favor thank you um matters for discussion for yeah matters for discussion for tonight Mr Peters would you like to uh get us started or Mr Jones so certainly Mr chairman did you want to um carry the application so if anyone shows up yes I just don't have my agenda with me can you read off the two applications so we could carry them to the reorg meeting thank you so much thank you uh that application will be carried to the January 8th 2024 meeting for scheduling purposes only it will not be heard on that date but we will be scheduling it then and the second application uh block 22009 Lot 1 2 3 4 5 and six farad Avenue property LLC location Houston Avenue and farad Avenue thank you um notice will be required again for that application and um proper notice at least Le um that will also be moved to the January 8th 2024 meeting again for scheduling purposes only it will not be heard on January 8th 2024 may I just have a motion for those to move those two second all in favor I thank you thank you Mr chairman good evening board members um with me this evening is Ashton Jones our director of planning from RVE um who was integral and assisting Us in preparing um with the municipality ordinances 3023 and 3123 which have been introduced by the governing body on first reading and recommended and sent to the board or referred to the planning board for a consistency determination with our master plan if the board remembers um six eight weeks ago probably two months ago we came in and we updated um our master plan to address some of the concerns that we have with um schools and houses of worship in town um that Master Plan Amendment led to the creation of these ordinances um ordinance 3023 and 3123 are separated into Pinel lands and non- pine lands portions of our municipality for obvious reasons the Pine Land Pine lands has something to say when we go change our ordinances they also have jurisdiction over the ordinances as well so the governing body will have a public hearing tomorrow evening on these two ordinances again they will be separate one will be within the pine lands one will be for properties in the town outside the pine lands Mr Jones and I prepared uh memos to the board dated November 15 2023 indicating how we we believe these ordinances are consistent with the 2023 master plan Amendment report I assume everyone's had an opportunity to see them um I know Mr Shay was kind enough to put out a an email reminder if anyone had any comments or questions feel free to give us a call um here we all are at 7 o'clock on a Monday evening um the purpose of this hearing is to determine the ordinance's consistency with the master plan not necessarily a debate building Heights or Square footages or impervious coverages they're meant to determine consistency with our master plan and so with that I will ask for any comments or questions from the board and Ashton and I are here to give you any input we can on um uh 31-23 faculty residents is that necessarily in accessory use because I don't see it there bottom that say that again something about residence I the first page of 31-23 Faculty residence I don't see the term accessory use there I see exclusive use but shouldn't it be always an accessory yeah so it is accessory and if you look I see it on the other ordinance but I don't see it on this one sure so if that's just the definition but then if you look in each section of you know whatever Zone we're talking about in there it details it out as an accessory use okay but it's not there not in the definition all right on um student residence on the next page is there an age restriction on student residences there is not an age restriction per se there is a restriction that they be um attending said facility yeah and in some instances secondary in a secondary school there is no in a secondary residence there is no age restriction in a student residence as long as they are a student or a family member of said student then they could reside in such facility so they could be 30 if they're a student of the institution say A Higher Learning institution in theory might have a 30-year-old student and that's full-time student not just a part-time student I I'm just I'm thinking I've got five children in graduate school five grandchildren in graduate school they're um cont Temporaries who are living in uh student housing some of them are living in apartments some of them are living in student housing they have restrictions on age in student housing and the number of family members that can live with them so so I would say that this ordinance does not contemplate that other than being a student and being a member of that student's family so a student and spouse and children could all live in one facility um just just so you guys take a look there are ages listed out Primary School uh 4 to 13 Secondary School 14 to 19 it's page two on on 30 you go up to on 30 not on 31 on 30 31 page two right right that's on that's on the um primary and secondary but not on Higher Learning I don't think no there is not that's my question thank you any else have any questions and sure and and I would add I mean only because only because I want to follow up your question with some I guess advice if that's more than just a question if you have an opinion that you want to express I think now is also a great opportunity for everyone on this board to say what they want and that recommendation gets sent on to councel just a follow up on Dr Campbell um you know she brought up being a student in this ordinance would alumni of a school I know some schools around the country have alumni that uh stay in the student residence it's alumni residence would that be per permitted under this ordinance under this ordinance no thank you okay thank you see no other questions from the board um would anyone like to uh have any discussion or make a motion I don't believe we have to open it to the public um no what happens is that the uh for a consistency review um at the planning board level it's just simply a planning function and sounds weird but it's actually like statutory language and what that means is that the the actual forum for debate or anything like that is actually at the counil level what happens at the board is simply we're here to take a look at planner's report take a look at the ordinance and offer any recommendations to council so that that that could facilitate the debate that happens there um um and then we you know vote on whether it's consistent or not consistent um and then that also gets taken into consideration at the council level no not here because it's yes we do um I don't mind opening again to the public I just don't want to set any PR to the Future yes it's this is the same process every time um what happens is that because it's a planning function because because we're this recommendations to council that's technically where the Forum is to talk about it um for General comment because that's where the decision is to whether it's valid or invalid or anything to that nature that takes place there I understand that and and you're the expert on that I'm just always concerned that the public doesn't have now an opportunity to hear what we have just heard from all of you so they understand what we're voting on so that tomorrow in the newspaper I don't see that we supported something that we are not supporting by a vote we are just supporting on a recommendation on its consistency but they're not going to know that because they haven't heard it I believe it is available online for anyone that would like that's my question yes is this being heard by the citizenry that's what I'm asking because I don't see our usual Zoom thing up there that's the question that was the question because I'm not seeing zoom up there I'm asking to be sure that the public is hearing this I didn't I finally got that answer thank you thank you sure understand a little bit the consistency so there's a you have a microphone just a little Clos sorry is it on I believe you press the rear button reg the regular okay sorry okay um for from a consistency standpoint um because there's a lot of information in here you talk about like the um some requirements um on how to identification of their affiliation that is is that that's not really consistency is it just that all of the um the zones and what is supposed to be permitted in the zones is that the consistency we're talking about not the like the detail the granular detail I'm going to defer this to the planning um but it's the answer is yes but I'll let the yeah so every municipality has a master plan and that Master Plan indicates um I guess a Future Vision via goals objectives things like this those goals and objectives often time are broad you know like aspirational and then many times they're direct so sometimes a master plan might say um we have the goal of just making stuff up making a mixed use Corridor along a certain street right so if the master plan says that and then an ordinance comes along that helps to produce that mixed use Corridor along that said Street the consistency review would be not about the standards but about that it's consistent with the master plan it's achieving that goal so in the case of these we did a master plan Amendment and in that Amendment we recommended certain changes to ordinance standards we didn't get into the detail of what those standards are we just said where we should do it what uses might be permitted these ordinances now are consistent with that recommendation they are going I'll say One Step Beyond that recommendation by also providing detailed standards but those standards are not the issue of consistency with the master plan they're just standards if we think in terms of checks and balances the governing body doesn't create the master plan in the state of New Jersey planning board does so this is the planning board created the master plan updated the master plan the governing body is the only entity that can create ordinances change the laws so when they do that there's a responsibility for the governing body to send those laws or ordinances back down to the planning board so that we say okay you're generally following the master plan which the governing body and the state law told the planning board they had to put forward so this is part of the checks and balances the the specifics of the ordinance will get reviewed and open to to the public at tomorrow evening's hearing feel free to join but really it's a checks and balances part the responsibility of the master plan lies with this Board responsibility for ordinances lies with the governing body okay so seeing nobody else would anyone like to make a motion on this consistency riew a roll call please I I would just add that I think you should probably make a motion for each ordinance sorry okay yeah we'll start again would anyone like to make a motion for ordinance 30-23 second roll call please sure an ordinance of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey amending and supplementing chapter 244 of the Township Code of the township um of Jackson intitled land use and development regulations for Pineland areas of the township um Mr sh all uh the members who are present are eligible to vote I believe thank you Mr Bry I'm sorry he's out Mr Brin yes uh Mr rker yes Mr Sullivan yes Mr yes Mr trammer Mr wall Dr Campbell yes Mr Herman yes thank you um the next one up is ordinance 31-23 ordinance of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey meting is implenting chapter 244 of the Township Code of the township of Jackson entitled land Youth and development reg relations would anyone like to make a motion to as far as the consistency of that ordinance I move to approve second M call please Mr brunstein yes and Mr rer yes Mr suvan yes Mr marzo yes Mr Tremor Mr wall Dr kampbell yes Mr Herman yes thank you thank you anyone like to make a I'm sorry anything else Doug you're here would you are there any matters for discussion for tonight I I forgot I usually ask I'm sorry oh okay thank you uh but like to make motion to close motion to CL before we do that before we do that could could I ask why we had to wait until today to find out those things were not going to be heard I will go first because I didn't go to school for law um it became apparent through an email that was sent out today by the applicants attorney I saw one of the applications didn't notice an adjacent municipality that's a fatal defect you can't get away from that um so the only way I can think of to find out sooner we tell them that they have to provide us proof of service well they send it out it's 10day notice so if we tell them that they have it have to have it back to us five days in advance I guess we could set up a priority where we say if you don't have it in five days in advanture not getting on regardless of that we couldn't have taken any of the applications from the 18th and stuck them on because it was before 10 days so unless we list 19 applications every night and carry 15 of them we we're sort of damned if we do damned if we don't in this particular case we thought that those two applications would take a majority of the evening so one of them was completely the fault of the applicant okay the second issue um the one on County Line Road um appears to utilize property next door the existing facility that's under construction which is perfectly okay except that they have to either have the consent of the owner or ask for that application to be or that tract of land to be included with the application we were going to hear this evening and apparently that wasn't done correctly so once again it's a notice issue there's no recourse to that do do we have a again Mr Mr Shay I hope I didn't step on too many attorney Toes by saying it in that tone than I yeah in all honest honesty I would yeah yeah in in all honesty I this is kind of like on my you know like wish list if you guys want to grant me a holiday gift but um I I would actually like to make the applicant do the notice about 20 days in advance because that would that would give us the ability because let's say they let's say they do it 10 days in advance we we don't even get it until they decide to Campell it does take about five days to notice if we want to put another application there instead I understand but if we could if we could make your wish list and say two weeks in advance then two weeks ago we would have known that these two were not going to be heard and we could have had something else so too late we need it takes about four days to get noticed out correctly yeah this was an interesting one because what happened was is that the it's it's props up against the township of lakid so ordinar a lot of people actually not don't even bounce into this um because not a lot of proper you know kind of Border another Township but when they do that they have to notice not only the township but yeah but residents within and and that's kind of what happened they were they only provided one tax list and they never went for the second one so kind of when we noticed that it was it was jurisdictional issue a shame it's a shame we sit I agree and we're so having prepared yesterday or over the weekend last week I spent my weekend I spent my weekend going to these places to check them out you know like always do now now uh Mr Shay is there anything is there a governing body issue to create a 20day requirement or we'd have to so it could be one of two days it can either just be request by the board um but you know could an applicant basically say you know could they you know sck their us and I'll be I enjoy a good debate um so I'll be the I'll be the foil so to speak if I tell all the applications that were going to be heard on December 4th you had to be in 20 days before and then I tell all the applicants that were going to be on on December 18th you had to be in 20 days before did I still make the 10 days to move the applications from the 18th to the 4th I may not have ended up accomplishing what your goal is which was to be able to pick from the future and bring them in tonight bring the applications that will be heard in two weeks to the board tonight not the other problem that sometimes you have increasing the requirements of the municipal land use law gets some people's noses out of joint yeah in Howell some years ago we tried to expand the notice because 200 feet sometimes on larger tracks of land touches three pieces of property so the town said well let's make it 500 or a th000 feet folks said well that's not what the municipal land use law says so yes could we change our checklist probably but I'm not sure and we can look into it between now and you know first of the year and see if it would yield the results you're looking for I if we had and I understand this these two would have taken up the entire meeting time could we have had a third in line that we could have let them know that okay these two are going to be heard we're not going to get yeah but but what do you do who's going to volunteer to be third and where do you put them afterwards so yeah I know but it's also not fair to the public to make them come out come out again and their applications and the the other problem too is that like with some of these newspapers they're actually even getting worse but you I mean you have to put the notice in sometimes seven days in advance to to to hit the 10day deadline so now you're looking at almost 20 days in advance so I I I would love to load these things up but if we don't catch soon enough I bumped into two people in the parking lot who were incensed that they came out tonight and I said well here I am you know chairman I can I just say something very briefly two things one this doesn't happen that often it just doesn't and two our issue is not and is is is not really noticing our issue is on occasion if not too often sloppy applications that are poorly constructed where we are not holding a pen we're holding a mop so that's really our key issue so so to have it pulled back further as Noble endeavor it may be you will have sloppier applications because they will they won't be perfected the time frames and that kind of thing or even the even the applications that are not designed to be sloppy and they're trying to do their best they may not have their best work done in time anyway so I the I didn't mind that email to be candid okay holiday season yeah so but I I think that you may you you may be creating a you know squeezing the balloon here and popping it over there because we really it's not so much the notification it's having really good products brought to the board so we're not mopping it up that's been my experience is that on occasion you have copy and paste applications where where it's showing the wrong height and and and the plan the professionals know they try to work together with these folks but you're you're are you or are you not mopping up the applications from time to time it's reality yeah so I you get a better product I think that's more the issue than than another issue another issue we been having on this board is applicants tend to come in the day of the application they come into to the meeting with amended plans right our professional didn't have a chance to review it yet you know talking about mop-up work we can't even you know now the board becomes you know it just becomes a the whole you know the whole meeting becomes a mess or they show up with the exhibits at the last second there's only Mr chairman yes all right so my my statement for tonight having missed a few meetings and had the benefit of enjoying watching them from home uh specifically Mrs Jennings makes the idol threat about you know due process and whatnot but I do recall that we had a reschedule around her trip to Greece so the knife Cuts both ways and I'll take I will take grief from the public but I'm not going to take grief from an attorney NOP all right seriously because I've watched them come in they don't send in the right information to the Fire official and that should be the stop right there there's no need to go forward because you misrepresented completely what the projects are the second thing is you know it's not my problem they as a professional attorney can't get through crap together I don't care I really don't care because that's your job at 300 bucks an hour and you have staff and we don't uh but to to that point it's it's a little Discerning because you know tonight I hoisted myself s out and looked at projects went and visited and here we are we're flat out of gas and then we're going to hear let's go we need more time you have to fit Us in and the answer to Mr alfery all due respect is back at the line pal back of the line and if it takes three four months or whatever guess what that's not a planning board function that is a misfunction of the applicant we we have and they can go back three four month do we have a do really yeah sorry to that point um when when we schedule applications do we try to put back up you know do we use the date of completeness or do we use the date of last adjournment by what what is complete first is when we we try to keep them in that order maybe we could change that you know a lot of these cases it's kind of not you know people that are complete doing everything right they don't deserve to be put out for four months because somebody keeps well no anything that's not complete I mean doesn't isn't going to be get put on before something else we go by the time I go by the time when Doug deems something complete we put those on first try to go in order back of the list what once they're adjourned and when go to the back of the list that's how I like it um you and Mr Shay have put people ahead and I've argued against that and you've done that on a few occasions um would put them to the end all three applications actually for tonight that removed were all Mr Alf Aries most of most that was for time management versus yeah I mean listen I me he maybe he could have let us known sooner at the notice I mean he'd let us know today exactly right we can and you know two things number one this may be maybe we want to have this conversation as to Logistics and procedures and everything like that um January 8th when we have the reort so that we can kind of line everything up for the way in which we want to do it in 2024 or you know at least just um refine it but again I mean with some of these applications we got to take into consideration the length they're going to have like and without getting into the specifics of applications we've had a few this year that we know we going to take up the whole meeting and the problem is is that if you know or exactly or two or three or four so if we get into a situation where we do that and um and sometimes it's the right thing to do right give whole night you try to let them put their direct on and get through it you know so it's not holding up three four of applications but if they mess up now we're in a situation where okay now we're at a whole meeting so now I think we may want to decide as a as a board as to if we want to you know give applicants an hour um an hour deadline you know for every meeting so we we maybe we have three four five or you know three maybe four um you know applications on a night but each one only gets an hour a lot of other boyss do that because of the fact that like you know sometimes they they mess up and we still would have a couple more on but I mean like this meeting like all three one pulled voluntarily and the other two have you know irredeemable jurisdictional defects so this is kind of out of our hands you know to a certain extent uh to no no but that that's the whole thing and and quite frankly I don't I don't agree with and um I I do not like any threats that are made at this board quite frankly at all in the least because there are ways in which we need to operate ourselves and and this board shouldn't be Holden to threats simply due to the fact that they are threats but that's another uh conversation made for a different day um but yeah I think if we want to if we want to get into the kind of philosophical um debate as to you know how we want to structure uh 2024 with you know with how we do it every meeting um I mean that that's a legitimate thing that we we all may want to discuss um simply due to the fact that it would kind of change of nature by which we're operating it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing um a lot of other boards do the same thing it's just the direction in which we want to you know go move forward do we give each you know did we put a time limit on um each application and kind of hedge our bets so to speak to make sure that you know we don't have a meeting like tonight where all of a sudden now I prepared the whole weekend you know professionals prepar the whole weekend you guys probably prepared the whole weekend and now we're sitting here and you know I didn't get to play with my two and threeyear old because I was you know I was preper for these things so um you know I think that may be a discussion for another time but even if we all want to think about it maybe that's something that we do okay thank you chairman I'm the newest person here so I'm a little uneducated but I'm going to give you kind of the perspective that they were trying to get so as a new person here I find it mindboggling that the process doesn't find the mistakes before it gets here to waste our time you know it's I mean you you have a last week we had a situation where there wasn't even a septic design but how are your water studies already done if you don't even don't even know what the state is going to require you to put in the ground but let's so um I'm just going to kind of let's not discuss any individual applications without I'm just using a basic reference that what I'm saying is the horse is here but there's no cart right and and that goes to the applicant's burden of proof you know so it's their burden of proof to show up with everything that they need right but who's checking the application and I know she's very burdened I'm not picking right but but when it comes down to I think that's something we should really take offline and speak to Mr C I'm just saying that and I'm sure anybody watching this is going they've said before because I've had the question asked to me how does it get here and it's not even correct or they don't get here unless they're ready to be here and then if they do something like they don't do their notice that's not the town's responsibility it's not the planning board's responsibility it's not board secretary or one of your Consultants responsibility it's the applicants responsibility Frank I'm I'm pretty sure the applicants not both of those applicants aren't real happy that they're not going to be here tonight oh I don't because they're going to get heard in March or April so yes but my question is it it's seems to be slowing down the works you know I mean to me it should be complet and check by I guess they use engineering firms draw these nice pictures up and come up with all these nice PL all the board's professionals reviewed the application and gave them this hearing date a month ago six weeks ago and they waited too long to get their notice done get or to get it done correctly that's what I'm saying it seems to be a pattern here which is mindboggling they're just miring up the works where now the board gets underneath the gun so we're going to have to hurry and go through things and we may miss something too because lack of a better term they're playing games yeah so I can I can I could probably talk to you guys for like two hours about this but sure um there's there's a process um we can go over the process U maybe that'll make it clear but I think kind of because now we're kind of getting into certain specifics that we really shouldn't be getting into to outside of the applicants actually being here um well they were affording an opportunity no show and tell us why but no no that that's they believe it or not even if they did they couldn't even say anything because they don't have jurisdiction to do anything because well I I'll sum it up real easy it's like motor vehicle you either comply or you're denied right you can beg you can scream you can you can moan but it's comply or deny one or the other black or white pregnant or not that's what you get in life in this case they go home to the back of the line I I wish applicants were watching now but I doubt the are actually be watching this right now so my point is that you know you could just correct correct applicants are going to do what applicants do and our job push back exactly some of them sure is there is there a way in general maybe I don't know for if we can put it in on the applications but I have noticed and I'm not going to single out any particular application but that we've had what I would call sloppy applications this year and Grant that this is my first year on this board but I used to serve on the zoning board and I've never seen as many sloppy applications in one year so this is what I would recommend what I would me what I would recommend is that um when it comes down to the procedures and things that we want to kind of make a Christmas um you know Hanukkah wish list of um is that we we get a list together and then we recommend it to the council um kind of way by you know formal um recommendation to say hey here are the issues we're bumping up against is there anything that you guys can do to amend the land use ordinances or or something to that effect maybe open up a dialogue to uh you know make it official so things that we bump into and these two circumstances are really kind of outside of our purview it was strictly on the applicants but um other situations that may be able to get rectified but we we have have to do that by formal recommendation to the to the municipality right to the council to be able to do that so that would be it's instead of kind of debating and going back and forth and I think that's what we should do we should kind of get together 2024 make a formal recommendation if anybody has any recommendations please email it over to myself Mr Shay and um and M and Mr chairman and definitely by reor take those notes andoun together I'm sure Council will be very receptive exactly let's try to put something together some sort of memo that we can s to the council you know let's try to have a consensus and what could be done what can't be done we'll bring it to reorg I don't believe we have any applications on by reorg no think it's so we set the schedule professionals and you know maybe we'll bring it up as the topic of discussion by rorg any ideas just please send them an email and we'll put them all we'll put them all together and with that anyone like to make motion to close all in favor I thank you