way andice for all all right everybody Welcome to the February 26 2024 Jackson Township planning board meeting this meeting is convened in accordance with the provisions of the open public meetings act in New Jersey an adequate notice of this meeting has been provided to all sources Madame chair oh I promise I will uh we we're we're fortunate to have a secretary this evening in uh our regular secretary will also be our recording secretary tonight so miss Morrison roll call please here Mr Bernstein here Mr heler Mr Herman Mr rker Mr marzo Mr tremer here Mr wall Mr Sullivan here Dr Campbell here uh we'll move uh to approval of the minutes for February 5th please motion second just a reminder please say your burn motion Bernstein thank you okay uh Mr brei yes Mr Bernstein yes Mr marzo yes Mr tremer Mr Sullivan yes Dr Campbell yes uh engineering and planning matters gentlemen nothing M CH mad CH thank you and legal matters Please Mr Shay not at this time we have resolutions and we have quite a number of them Okay resolution 20240 6 resolution of the planning board of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey granting preliminary and final major subdivision approval with bulk variance for Johnson Holdings LLC to subdivide existing lot at block 4901 lot one did we get a motion eligible eligible are Mr brei Mr Bernstein Mr heler Mr marzo and Dr Campbell a motion please so moved second Bernstein Mr brei yes Mr Bernstein yes Mr H yes Mr marzo yes Dr Campbell yes resolution 202 24-7 resolution of the planning board of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey granting preliminary and final major site plan approval with bulk variants for GM 425 Harmony LLC for a two-story office building at block 4901 lot 13 eligible to vote are Mr brei Mr Bernstein Mr heler and Dr Campbell a motion please motion Bernstein second Bry Mr brei yes yes Mr Bernstein yes Mr heler yes Dr Campbell yes resolution 2024-the granting an approval Amendment for Royal Grove realy block 1 19703 Lots 28.1 through 28.6 eligible to vote or Mr brei Mr Bernstein Mr marzo Mr Sullivan and Dr Campbell a motion please so move Bry second Bernstein okay Mr brei yes Mr Bernstein yes Mr marzel yes Mr Sullivan yes Dr Campbell yes resolution 20249 resolution of the planning board of the state of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey granting administrative approval after courtesy review for various modifications to the authorities London Drive Water Treatment Plant facilities block 130001 Lot 24 eligible to vote are Mr Bernstein Mr hel Mr marzo Mr trimmer Mr Sullivan and Dr Campbell motion please motion Bernstein second Sullivan Mr Bernstein yes Mr heler yes Mr marzo yes Mr trimmer Mr Sullivan yes Dr Campbell yes resolution 224-1 resolution of the planning board of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey graning administrative approval after courtesy review for various modifications to the authorities Manhattan Street Water Treatment Plant facilities block 13001 lot 52 eligible to vote are Mr Bernstein Mr heler Mr marzo Mr chmer Mr Sullivan and Dr Campell a motion please motion Bernstein Mr Bernstein yes Mr heler Mr marzel yes Mr Tremor Mr Sullivan yes and Dr Campbell yes resolution 20241 resolution of the planning board of the township of Jackson County of ocean state of New Jersey graning preliminary and final major site plan approval and preliminary and final major subdivision approval for single family Residential Building lots for Whitesville homes LLC block 1 1950 0 1 Lot 25 eligible to vote are Mr Brey Mr Bernstein Mr heler Mr Sullivan and Dr Campbell motion please motion Bry second Bernstein okay Mr brei yes Mr Bernstein yes Mr heler yes Mr Sullivan yes Dr Campbell yes okay and the last one is resolution 2024-25 eligible are Mr brei Mr heler Mr marzo Mr Tremor Mr Sullivan and Dr Campbell motion please second Bry okay Mr brzy yes Mr heler yes Mr marzel yes Mr Tremor Mr Sullivan yes and Dr Campbell yes okay thank you any uh board matters for discussion or shall we save them for the end okay all right um welcome Miss Jennings we're ready if you are thank you for the record Donna Jennings from the law firm of w Goldman and Spitzer I know that Mr gazar rowski said he wanted to make a quick statement so I'll yield the floor to him thank you uh Madame chair lady Mr attorney members of the board I do have a brief comment uh to make when I read through the transcripts as well as review letters and listened to the testimony of two of the witnesses I note that comments were made from the board's professionals as seeking additional information Andor reports from the professionals or Witnesses of the applicant when I spoke with the secretary of the board the other day I was advised that no further material were supplied to the board by Miss Jennings with regard to today's meeting my only request would be it's my understanding Miss Jennings indicated to me that she anticipates finishing her case off at the next hearing I would request that the applicant through its attorney provide all of the uh additional comments or questions which were made by uh the board's professionals and that next meeting not take place until that information was either provided or the applicant state that they do not intend to provide that additional information thank you any uh response to that Mr johnning sure the applicant is certainly going to address all the concerns raised by the board and the public and of course the board's consultants and one of the big issues that was raised that took quite a bit of time to work through was the requests that the road that was proposed to be public uh be private so after much discussion with the applicant although not legally required to do this uh they are going to make the road Private and so it triggers some design changes to the plan and so they're working on that and we didn't want to just throw it into the board uh 10 days before because it's a big site and it would be unfair to both the board Consultants to have to rush to Rie it so there's a lot of other stuff that needs to be addressed one is the cross-examination of Mr Diamond sitting to my left we also have the cross- examination of the architect who unfortunately was not available tonight I told them everybody wants to hear about traffic anyway so Justin Taylor is here this evening and I think he will eat up most of the uh night hearing so rather than waste anybody's time we figured let's plow ahead but yes we are certainly going to address all questions raised by the board one thing else that I could know was discussed in the applicant did agree upon was Dr Campbell you asked that make sure that all the schools had a nurse in it and that would become a condition of the approval the applicant has agreed that a nurse will be in every school so with that we will have start with the cross-examine of Mr Diamond and I would yield the floor to Mr gazari make one more comment uh I'm going to save the um changes in the agenda schedule until the end because I want to get right into testimony thank you and Ju Just A just just a so I can make a comment on that so so the plans because of the fact we're still waiting on the revised plans I just want to make sure that uh we're not going to be putting any testimony on the record as to what could theoretically be on those plans so whatever testimony is going to be put on the record just restricted to uh what's been provided so just so there's no confusion so if in the event that we need to things need to change um the plans in the event something will change um you may just have to come back and bring some of the experts back to testify as as to the changes on the revised plans to so that there's no confusion with u as to who's testifying to what and when and what revised vision and and all that okay with that I would just say Mr Diamond was at the operation so any changes to the configuration was a blanket comment yeah but when when just we did submit an exhibit which shows the proposed change in the beginning so I think that for conceptual has to be discussed tonight that's um but the more detailed plans will come with Mr Henry who will come back he'll go through the changes he'll discuss the drainage the water the sewer all the types of issues and address all open remaining issues he is also a planner so the change in the design of the road does trigger two bulk variances so I'm also going to notice for that hearing because I don't want there to be a notice issue in the future so even though we've noticed for this and everybody is obviously well aware of the application just to make sure we cross all the te's and Dot all the eyes we're going to re notice as well that's what I lovek can I also request that when Miss Jennings who has always been very courteous to me when she provides a copy of the plans to the board she provide me with a copy as well and that I receive copies of any review letters from the board's professionals uh at a date significantly in prior to the next meeting we can send him an e copy when we submit it with the board thank thank you um just a few more items just off the checklist uh so we put a um we put a new system in place where any revised plans that may impact Traffic Safety fire safety uh those plans when they're submitted to us also be submitted to fire uh and to traffic and any agency approval that may you know may uh need to review it from the revision itself I understand sometimes it's a case-by casee basis uh but I think in this situation that may have to uh be the case but uh submit it 20 days in advance um just so that everybody has time U because I know that they operate under a 30-day time frame but uh with the new procedures that we're going to be putting into place uh there going to be probably about a 10day um so just be able to have the outside agencies take a look at it and then our professionals take a look at it we just want to make sure there's enough buffer uh in place um so that would just be a request if I could get that sure that's not a problem we'll do that uh and then the the applicant in the prior meeting uh I believe they were talking about the fing for the students in the playgrounds I don't know if they considered that or if we want to bring that up at the next hearing when revised plans yeah that's going to be covered by Mr Henry okay all right perfect okay good also we're we're looking at probably late May um our schedule is really crowded uh so I'll be reading off can you give me a date now because well what it looks like and I think u m Morrison am I correct in saying it looks like maybe um the 20th of May um perhaps the uh we have two other applications that might not be too bad yeah all right yeah it was already scheduled for May 20th for a synagogue I don't think that's going to work but if you think it it's going to work yeah well is there when's the next available that should not be too bad I would assume I'd get a ahead of them my application's probably older God heaven knows your application is older yes that's for sure uh uh I'm just concerned that they're already scheduled and I'm hopeful that they'll be fast I hate to have them wait around too for a long session um what what else looks good anything that we can give her the whole time put aside a whole meeting do we think then I think that would be preferable wouldn't you think so Miss Jennings a whole meeting yeah but I mean I don't know how far away we're going and if we could consider a special meeting this application was deemed complete over a year ago yes well we we're all holding our breath for all the paperwork June 17th would be the next I mean totally empty well the problem with that is I'm on vacation the entire week before and I don't want to come back Monday and do a hearing don't blame well then there's July 1st don't blame me what about um is there a possibility of moving those two warehouses any chance in the world of moving them to the next to the June meeting I think we they may have already it's already they've already already noticed yes yes what what's on the April 15th because I know we were put a pin in for the Bell VI Estates which would not go forward is that still on the agenda those two applications those are mine they're they're still on there until they're withdrawn so yeah so I mean I think we could probably go that night CU I think that those will eventually be withdrawn I just can't so April April 15th and and that you would have time to have all your plans and paperwork I believe so and if not then I would notify you ahead of time like that's not going to work but I think if we could carry it tonight it's April 15th and if it doesn't work it doesn't work and I'll let you know that's sounds understanding that you want everything 20 days ahead of time I'm really anxious that the public know knows when the next potential meeting is as long as they're sitting here right and they're also going to be noticed again so they're going to get a paper noce once again good so April 15th is looking like a plausible date okay and this would be third on the agenda and it will be that day all right we may move forward then please thank you okay thank you oh set we are uh good evening Mr Diamond good evening I was present at the last hearing and I've reviewed some of my notes as well as notes from the board uh you introduced yourself as a consultant and said that you've done pre construction as a contractor for several schools you also indicated you were a manager of the operations of a large Private School in Long Island stating that you were involved in the education field since 2008 now are you presently employed yes and by whom are you employed company that I'm a partner in as a construction company a construction company okay what's the name of that company 170 group you tell me where it's located headquarters in Woodcliff Lake New Jersey okay now what is what is the nature of your work uh within that company the nature of my work is business development and preconstruction okay for various projects throughout the state uh New York and New Jersey predominantly and some in Connecticut as well now you identified yourself as doing preconstruction also as a contractor what is the nature of your relationship with the applicant for this particular project at this time uh we are Consulting high level on some operational background that we have on other projects you are Consulting in some operational type uh issues yes okay so you're not a full-time employee of the applicant definitely not okay uh how much time would you say in the past six months you've devoted to giving consider ation to this application I don't know off hand that's a pretty concise answer well what can you tell me what plans or documents that you reviewed the documents that have been submitted in support of this application okay so so the documents that were submitted to the board are the documents that you reviewed the plans yes okay now what I read through these plans there was not to my knowledge anyway a definitive documentation as to exactly how these schools would operate is is your understanding that the person who employed you or the applicant is in fact going to be the party who constructs these buildings and operates schools from within those buildings that I do not know well I mean if you don't know that if you don't know that how can you give testimony as an expert witness uh who's going to comment uh with regard to the operation of this facility he doesn't need to know who's running them to understand the operation so I object to that line of questioning and your tone of voice wait a second I'm an old man this is my tone of voice all right let's before we go down that road do any objections address me all right I'll make the determination all right well I don't I don't want the record to reflect that in some way I'm being hostile or the like this is the way I speak so have you sat down with the applicant and have you made a determination as to whether or not he will in fact build be be the Builder of this project that has not been determined to my knowledge okay so my question would be then if that has not yet been determined to your knowledge how can you comment or give expert commentary as to how this facility will operate the operations schedules and flow that was relayed to the board is based on similarly situated schools serving similar age groups with very similar programmatic design criteria where where are those schools located uh in New Jersey no just give me give me the name of the school please in the town where it's operating Miss Jenny commented upon the tone of my voice can I comment as to the length of time it's taking for a response there are a number of schools Lake located in Lake New Jersey that operate on the schedule the similar schedule is adhered to by uh boy schools located in M located in Long Island as well what is the name of the school that's operating in Muny there's a school named base mcra on viola Road in Muny New York were you involved in design of that facility that yeah just sure if you can I believe it's B AIS s next word mikra m i k r o h okay did you did you put together the plan for the operation of that facility I did not put together the operation plan for pardon me I did not put together the operational plan for that building so your comment upon its similarity is is based upon some passing observation you made with regard to that school uh that would not be correct it would be based on the fact that we were involved in the design and are currently building the school and working hand inand with the operations team of that school okay you say You're Building the school is this the school you're referring to in Muny yes and that school is presly under construction yes okay and you know how large that school is the addition is approximately 60,000 square feet all right so there's an existing School and you're adding 60,000 square feet on top of that school adjacent to it yes okay now you refer to observing operations did you put together an operational format or plan with regard to the operation of that 60,000 s ft can you clarify your question please yes I mean you you're testifying this evening as an expert in the field of how a school operates did you with regard to that school did you put together a format uh for how it would operate or the operations manual for the school I did not put together their operations manual okay now you referred to uh schools in Lakewood can you give me the names of those schools please just want one thing to be correct he was sworn in as a fact witness only not an expert I I you're you are correct double check my transcription not my I apologize for interrupting says wait a second says Mrs Diamond says he is a consultant Consultants Give opinions he was presented as a wit as ofer number students okay not as anert okay so just just so we're clear he's here to testify as perhaps to the size of a school the number of students but he he has no opinion he's formed no opinion as to whether or not this facility can operate safely effectively uh given uh the facts brought forth he's simply he's simply a person who's telling us how many students will be there how many schools there'll be there uh where the cars are coming in where they's coming out with offering no opinion as to whether or not that could be done safely and effectively that's what our experts are for and we have a traffic engineer and a site engineer and there'll be building code that'll be reviewed so yes he's a fact witness for hours of operation number of students Etc how does the school work okay now having said that uh Who provided mrowki so we're going to go down this road so uh what I will allow is is questions similar in nature to the ones that you were asking but as to um how he weighs himself as a fact witness so what what personalized experiences he has what how he views himself as a fact witness and what qualifies him to be a fact witness for this type of use in this type of manner so slightly lesser standard than that of an expert so if you want to take it from uh okay yeah uh I think I understand what you're saying I'm I'm not completely sure uh with regard to your testimony Who provided you with that information the applicant and his team pardon me the applicant and his team of professionals okay did they give you any written documentation yes you bring copies of that with you you have copies of it a statement of operations that was submitted with the application that everybody should have a copy of information the information came that statement of operation was put together by him I want to know where he got that information from just told you from the applicant and the professional well I'm asking him I'm asking yeah Mr gaski I believe that he indicated that the the uh statement of operations was not put together by him um but it was put together by the applicant but he is um I guess to paraphrase you're you're simply reading the statement of operations well I've got the statement of operation correct uh before me and he he speaks in terms of the applicant proposes to construct for schol buildings on the property applicant proposes I'm sorry a microphone run okay I'm sorry I'm looking at the statement of operations uh and the first paragraphs of that just simply says the applicant proposes to construct four four school buildings on the property the applicant proposes division of a lot of three distinct lots that will contain schools with related site improvements for example access roads storm water retention water supply support lighting and the light now just so we're clear when you're referring to that you were simply giving us testimony as to what will be there correct just to clarify again I did not write the statement of operations you did not write the statement of operations correct you know who wrote it I do not okay uh could we find out before the next meeting who wrote it and have that person provides the attorney with the information and we put it down on on paper as required as a part of the checklist for the application just like we fill out the application form we prepare the application statement of operations with with the assistance of the client we ask them the questions and most of the questions come directly from the review letters that I've seen numerous times on the school that Mr CLE and Mr Peters right they're very lengthy and there's a lot of detail so we now take everything from those prior reports put them in a statement of operations so we when we come here hopefully you've answered many of these questions ahead of time okay well just let's move forward and that first paragraph uh there's reference there to access roads storm water retention I hope we're not going to read the whole statement of operations as we went over this at length just I fully understand that he does have a right to ask pertinent questions when it comes examination this so sounds like just reading the statement of operations I haven't heard a question if you hadn't cut me off so rudely you would have listened to it thank Mr Diamond I'm sorry you refer to access road storm water retention water supply it's so is it am I correct in assuming that you have no opinion whatever as to whether or not those individual uh improvements uh will work properly or will be worked effectively correct you're not opining as to that you're just saying that they are there I didn't say it pardon again you didn't write the I didn't write the statement of operations they're not my words well you looked you looked at the plans didn't you yes and and those those improvements are on the plans are they not yes and I defer to the design professionals to answer your question okay let me move on now am I just correct I'm not going to beli this but am I correct in saying that with regard to all of the fact factual information presented in the statement of operations that this is information provided by somebody else not by you and you merely read it and relied upon it would that be correct correct thank you now going on in questioning before the uh by the board and by your examination by Miss Jennings can hear you can't hear you I'm sorry uh I will I will speak louder uh you're welcome uh you go on to say and Miss Jennings asks you and says as you've discussed with them the various operation questions that have been raised by the board's Consultants I realize that you are you've been put forth as a fact witness so then would it be fair to say then you have not opined in any shape form or fashion whether or not these factual representations will allow the school to operate safely and efficiently correct just like at home I keep my opinions to myself pardon me correct that's your answer correct thank you now when I look at the uh operations uh particularly with regard to to the uh departure and arrival times for the first building say the ninth grade is set to start at 7:45 a.m. I'm sorry am I interrupting you okay uh and departures is scheduled and Scattered and they'll depart at says here 9:30 p.m. for for grades and then for grades 10 through 12 they'll be departing at 10:30 p.m. so you have no comment as to the propriety of those times and how and whether or not they are effective in educating children these are simply the numbers that were given to you correct you were then asked by Miss Jennings if you were in touch on some of the issues raised the site maintenance who would be responsible for the parking the sidewalks the landscaping and the like now you say that every school operates differently but they have similarities in that every school has its own maintenance staff and address is it my fear in commenting that you have no opinion whatever as to how the site maintenance will take place nor any opinion as to how the parking areas will operate the sidewalks and the Landscaping you are simply telling the board that those items are on the plans correct Mr Peters uh then asked you about the students who would be uh attending the school the school for example the A1 has a capacity listed as 153 and the plan show 165 uh and it also goes on to the elementary schools any testimony which you are giving will simply be a reiteration of the numbers given to you by those Professionals of the applicant you have no opinion nor are you offering any opinion as to those numbers would allow the school to operate efficiently and effectively correct you were also asked whether or not you had an understanding as to where the students and IIA of where you expect the students to be busted from in terms of municipalities he says the reasons why he is asking this is a private school so the kids from Jackson probably won't be taking Jackson Township buses and Lakewood Township students probably won't be taking Lakewood Township's buses did you make any attempt to determine who would provide those buzzes and how they would operate it's outside my purview okay Mr Peters then asked as to whether or not you made a presumption that every bus W was going to be full and did you get to the point without knowing where they were being drawn from uh for example if you have someone from Freehold Township you expect a student from Freehold Township to get on a bus and getting 41 other students before they show up at the school did you did you explore that at all or you just accepted the testimony of whoever was provided to you I'll defer to the traffic engineer pardon I defer to the traffic engineer oh you traffic injury know knows how many students will be in the school and what municipalities they come from and how they will get there you say he's going to provide us with that testimony much more equipped than I am tan he is much more equipped to provide you the answer you are looking for Okay I accept your humility then Mr Herman then raised the concern about students living with 2 miles of the site they wouldn't be provided busing or wouldn't be Walkers you stated and um this is of course uh from the transcript it's not uncommon for many jurisdictions to have similar situations and stated many private schools have moved to offering provide transportation as an amenity for the parents parents pay out of pocket it is not a taxi service parents pay so the facility the transportation to students who are deemed within walking distance was that testimony the result of any conversations you had with the experts of the applicant it was ad just your off the off comment I would say it's something in between the two extremes that you offered okay it's based on firsthand knowledge of a couple of schools that to solve the gap between what is provided by the municipality as an amenity to the parents they offer private busing the parents parents can elect to buy into okay do you know what municipalities offer that one one such example is the Hebrew Academy of Nassau County what's Hebrew Academy of Nassau County located on Long Island okay Dr Campbell uh stated uh that she had been involved in private education for over 40 years and she commented upon the difficulty of uh parents in townships with regard to busing and she indicated they needed a better handle on how it's going to happen and I'm assuming that testimony will be provided by the traffic expert that is my understanding okay Dr Campbell also commented upon the nursing situation and wanted clarification I wanted to know if nurses will be present in every building do you have knowledge of that I were you not here when I did the opening I specifically addressed that and said that the schools will be providing a nurse in each school it's going to be a condition of approval mrowki a private nurse in each School correct thank you now uh to your knowledge do you know whether or not these schools will be operating by one entity or will be operated by separate entities for each school if you have that knowledge I do not have that knowledge okay thank you do you know whether or not when we're talking in terms of for example uh sewage disposal whether that will be handled collectively by all four schools or will each School address it separately if you know I don't know okay now your also questioned with regard to uh playgrounds now when one has high schools or grammar schools or elementary schools are there normally playgrounds provided for the students we said Jim Henry was going to address the I'm sorry Jim Henry's going to address the playgrounds that were raised the last time so this man who's giving us factual testimony as to how this school will operate he has no idea does know show us well if he doesn't know where you're going does he know that they're going to be they're going to be there yes where are they going to be how well Jim Henry's going to have the the engineer is going to weigh in on that M if the let me preface it with this if the uh fact witness has any personal knowledge regarding anything pertaining to the uh to the playgrounds of where they're going to be and and how they operate and everything like that if he has that knowledge he can put that on the record if he doesn't then he doesn't I'll defer to the engineer who's working on the plans to depict that he's working on them as we speak that is my understanding okay now now a com a comment was made by Mr wall Mr wall stated if he is a tenant and he is going to have a school there he would like to know what would happen if that very long road meaning now a private road gets blocked off whether there was a natural event or a man M issue if that it is blocked and my school needs to be activated is there any other EG and how are the EMS police in fire if that roadway shot down uh getting there there is no in andout how are they getting out essentially they will be trapped in that area Mr wall asked if there was any other egress except that street now I would think that would come under the purview of how a school operates do you have an answer to that question it was asked of you by uh the board member I'll defer to the traffic engineer okay Mr wall then commented that he would like to have an answer by the next meeting since it's about public health and safety and I guess we have to wait for the traffic engineer to give us that information correct good that's delightful now there's also comments by other board members with regard to lighting and I would think that lighting would be a part of the operations of the school correct can you clarify your question pardon me I don't understand your question okay uh you you were being called as a consultant to discuss how this school would operate correctly at the moment I'm a fact witness pardon me at the moment I'm a fact witness okay as a fact witness can you tell me how at this moment will there be another moment when you'll try to be an expert I can't foresee the future so okay having said that you rephrase the question Mr G there there is lighting there are there is lighting uh on these premises are they not are they not I would assume that to be the case okay now you say that you're assuming as a part of operations and as part of you're testifying as a fact witness should you not or would you not know how the facility is lighted are you referring to internal or external Li external the external lighting plan is usually handled by the engineer doing the drawings for the building you your answer was all lighting is typically reduced to a minimum whatever lighting can be shut off is typically shut off but you don't know what the minimum would be and you don't know what will be shut off is that correct correct it would be operating in accordance with the design criteria do you have anything to add factually as regard to the testimony you gave at the last hearing and questions that were asked of you I think other than the clarifications that have already been stated I have nothing further you think you have clarified questions I I believe that during the introduction tonight there were clarifications made as to follow-up open items other than that I have nothing further to all right so you you've concluded your testimony and whatever factual representations that were made by you are in the record and the board cannot assume there's any other additional factual representations that you can or will make is that correct can you clarify your question yeah I try to clarify it uh repas you guysi what if you this rephrase I'll try yeah uh there were a number of statements made by you at the last hearing and I think that uh tonight we've uh clarified some of that at least hopefully we have but is there any other factual representations that you want to make to this board that you have not here to for made none at this time well do you atttend coming back no I I personally I would prefer not to that's it personally I would prefer not to I don't blame you Mr garas you finished with your across at this time does anyone on the board have anything yeah all right any redirect no anyone from the public wishing to ask questions just about this testimony may come forward seeing no one come forward I CL uh move to close the public portion second thank you public portion is closed thank you your next witness please thank you yes it's this time we like to call our traffic engineer Justin Taylor sir the public session has I have some difficulty hearing so did you ask for a member of the public to come forward just now I did and no one came forward and we have closed the public session at this time need my name and address dear God I think we went through this the last time so let's let's try to listen as um the attorney will swear you in but the witness has has gone has left now so how how how we do this how about after um how about after we have uh the traffic engineer put his testimony on we can have you individually come up and you can ask questions for both experts or for the fact witness and for the traffic experts so if you have them you can Bine them if not you can just have the fact witness I I believe the witness has Departed the fact witness just left I told him he could leave no one came forward and we closed that was quick I don't blame him remember he didn't want to speak anymore okay he's got Nimble feet yep um very sorry sir but that was already um we've already that witness has left the building law okay it that's not how Witnesses work that that's not how so so what just happened is that we had the cross-examination portion we opened to the opened it to the public and nobody said anything uh I think it was about 20 20 second pause I I I understand that but we still have to somebody if somebody knows that somebody else is going to be coming up to the podium somebody has to say something I'm not saying that anybody did I'm just making that representation and saying give us a heads up um with that being said um we can the public comment portion is closed and the fact witness I don't even believe is even here um so if he does come back at another session if you can remember jot down your uh jot down your question and if he is present at a subsequent meeting maybe you be able to ask it to him then I'll open it up specifically just for that purpose but for right now we have to move on to the uh traffic to the traffic engineer so am I permitted to speak now no sir no no during General you will at the end there will be there will be further be a further testimony and you'll be able to speak at that time but you have to listen to the clues we'll say we're calling the public forward when we do that at least raise your hand so we know you're coming forward okay I thought you asked for members of the public that has something we did Sir and no one came forward so a member of this board made a motion to close the public for so what you're saying is and the witness left the building I should sit down right please and then you may speak at the next will I be heard tonight if you have something appropriate for that particular witness sir any cross- examination questions uh if we get done the testimony the affirmative testimony uh and the cross of the um of the traffic engineer will it'll be open up to the public again for cross examination anybody can ask anything then uh as long as they say something and come up to the podium um or let us know that somebody's going to say something to come up to the podium um so we will move on right now so we're not going to waste any more time all right okay I will make sure that I'm pronuncia exactly yeah Jord please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the hold truth nothing but the truth I do please state your name and spell it for the record it's Justin Taylor t y l r all right and your credentials sure uh I'm a principal in The Firm of dynamic traffic I'm a licensed engineer in the state of New Jersey as well as Pennsylvania Delaware and Texas I'm also a certified professional traffic operations engineer by The Institute of Transportation Engineers practicing traffic planning for go almost 25 years now we' testified hundreds of boards throughout the City New Jersey including this board in the semi- recent past you seen you once or twice the board approves his credentials and welcome thank you very much thank you and uh Justin just for the record your office prepared a traffic impact study yes it did and you visited the site and the area around the site on numerous occasions and you conducted field investigations of the surrounding roadways and intersections collected trative volume data and conducted extensive analysis of same that is correct if if you could just uh go through your conclusions and findings and if you're going to rely on any exhibits we I believe they were submitted already uh to the board sure um I think the easiest thing is if we could put up an exhibit that Mr Henry introduced um we would just do exhibit number A4 which is the overall site plan rendering and I can speak to that but while that's coming up one of the responsibilities that we have is to research the existing area the background traffic um and the conditions in the vicinity of the proposed facility in order to do that we go out and we conduct uh existing traffic counts we cond conduct site visits and we conduct an inventory of what the uh the roadways are based upon um State and County uh jurisdictions and classifications as you've already heard uh the site fronts along uh Chandler Road which is under the jurisdiction of of the township is classified as an urban uh major collector roadway with a speed limit of 40 m an hour and it provides one lane in each Direction now atypical to planning board applications we also went and expanded the study area to figure out where the connections to the uh Regional roadway Network would be so we also took a look at Jackson Mills Road and its intersection with Chandler Road as well as the intersection of heison Road both of them being uh major collector roadways under the jurisdiction of the county so in order to uh collect the background data for the um for the existing roadway Network we perform traffic counts at these intersections to get a feeling for what's out there today and to begin to build the model that is the basis of a lot of the analysis that we conduct for this type of facility we conduct uh counts during the morning peak hours during the afternoon and evening Peak peak hours and also on the Friday peak hours as the schools release uh early on Fridays and so we want to make sure we're really getting an accurate picture of what the impact could be from the facility so we take that we conduct Accounts at the two intersections that I mentioned both at Jackson Mills and Chandler Road and at heison and Chandler Road to get both areas and both ends of where we uh where Chandler Road would connect when we look at those intersections currently uh the intersection of Jackson Mills and Chandlers operating at overall level of service B during the peak hours studied and the intersection of Chandler Road and heis is operating at levels of service C or better during those peak hours so I can I I'm hearing explanations we have an overall aerial that does show Jackson Mills Road but not heisen that was introduced as exhibit A1 if we want to throw that up and I can highlight that as we're going through um um but it does not show the fullest extent down to uh to where heisen road is you have a pointer um I have a laser pointer yep so I guess on yeah we're going back to A1 perfect so I guess we can do it this way so highlighted in the middle of the property in yellow or middle of the the plan in yellow is the subject property shown to the north because North is to the left of this plan on A1 is the intersection of Mills Road and um and Chandler Road right that's the closest arterial connection to the county roadway Network to our North then if you were to take Chandler road down to the South it crosses um 195 and then intersects somewhere up about here with heis road at an unsignalized intersection so those are the two points of uh analysis that we looked at from an existing an existing standpoint we then need to come up with and uh generate the traffic associated with this type of proposed project now there's been a lot of questions about that there's been a lot of um discussion on on how that's done and so I really want to clarify for everybody so they can feel comfortable on where we're at this is a combination of students of Parental drop off and of Staff arrival and departures right that's what makes up the traffic that's going to be coming to and from the site within that right you have children that are busted and children that are dropped off by uh by parents by caregivers by uh the neighbor in carpooling that and such what we found is in similar situations for this type of use you can anticipate between 5 and 10% of the children to be dropped off by a parent or not to take the busing in order to make sure we were giving a worst case scenario we assumed that 10% of the students we dropped off because that adds additional traffic associated with the parental drop off and a vehicle coming to and from the site to drop them off and pick them up in the afternoon once we subtract that number out of the total student population we then assume busing for the rest of them now there was some question and concern about that 45 student per bus number that we utilized what I will tell you is the buses that we're talking about are type-c buses they have a passenger capacity of about 70 children in order to account for the fact that they won't all be full and the fact that we're pulling from a wider region and you can't chain the trips together we utilize 45 to make sure that we again are being very conservative in estimating the numbers and giving you a higher end estimate of what it potentially could be and the final component to that is we take look at the staff now there has been some previous testimony that typically the staff in these type of facilities work in the morning or work in the afternoon they don't all stay the whole day however again to be conservative we assumed that all the staff arrived in the morning they stayed the whole day and they all left in the afternoon to again come up with the most conservative number for our analysis you've also heard testimony about the operation of the schools one of the things we had the ability to do is to work with the Alim both from the proposed Jewish educational philosophy but also the ability to spread some of the traffic out right instead of having a point load that you would see in most um public high schools the ability to spread that out over say an hour and a half of drop off and pickup allows us to reduce the point impact of the traffic on the surrounding roadway Network so we typically uh have an arrival time of somewhere between 7:45 and 9:00 a.m. for the various four schools and I can go Point by Point through this but I think it was elaborated the last hearing of where these each one of them started whichever grade level can do it but if people are interested I can go that go that deep but essentially what we're looking at is that all the arrivals showing up in about an hour and 15 to an hour and a half um in the morning and in the evening the departure is somewhere between 3:30 and 10:30 so it's stretched out much greater than would be um a a public school of of this size or um layout so all that being said we've come up with the trip generation uh analysis for the facility and once we have those numbers we then search charge them onto the surrounding roadway Network to conduct a no build and build analysis before we are there and after we are there to draw the comparisons of what the traffic impact of the site will be on that surrounding roadway Network when we do that we take a look at the uh intersection of Chandler Road and Jackson Mills Road as I mentioned before we come in it's operating at levels of service B uh during all the peak hours with the addition of the traffic we also anticipate that the intersection will operate at overall levels of service be or better during all of the peak hours studied and just um interrupt you just for the benefit of the public could you just explain what level of service is and the B you keep saying and the C what does all that mean sure absolutely in the traffic engineering realm we take a page from the educational system and we grade the operation of intersections ing between a and F and for signalized and un signalized intersection there is an average delay that's given to each one of those grade letters um level of service B A signalized intersection extends to about 15 seconds on average that you're going to wait um and it degrades down there down to the bottom of e which is 79.9 seconds so 80 seconds or more would be considered an f um for a movement so that letter grade that I'm giving you is an overall operation of that intersection and as I said they uh maintain levels of service B during all the peak hours studied uh when we look at the intersection of heison Road and Chandler Road we find that the unsignalized nature of that intersection takes it from a level of service C or better to a level service F during the uh during several of the peak hours uh most namely the um the PM and the uh the School dismissal and the PMP uh hour and so uh recognizing that there is an impact to that intersection we have approached Ocean County to get their Buy in to signalize that intersection right we understand that the uh the traffic associated with this project is going to create some sort of impact to that intersection and so we're currently working through the county to mitigate the impact of this project at that location and the final piece that we look at is the operation of uh our our proposed driveway uh based on the operation and the um the volumes as proposed for the facility we are looking at levels of service e or better during any of the peak hours um one other metric that we look at when we talk about the operation of a driveway is the cues that can be anticipated for that signalized or unsignalized intersection and so when we take a look at the driveway we want to make sure that the cues traveling Northbound on Chandler that are turning in are not going to be excessive and back up on Chandler and also to make sure that our driveway doesn't have excessive cues where people would be uh more likely to take uh shorter gaps or potentially uh get impatient what I will tell you is the the build cues that we anticipate for that driveway for the Northbound left turn in from Chandler into the facility or one vehicle or less during any of the analyzed peak hours and what that means is not every vehicle is going to be sitting there when they want to turn in you get artificial gaps created in the southbound flow on Chandler by the signal at Jackson Mills right you don't have a free flow coming to it if you're coming south on Jackson Mills you've got a left turn that you're waiting for and that traffic comes in what we call a platoon what that also means is then after that platoon is passed there's a huge amount of time where there's no vehicles traveling Southbound on Chann and so when we put look at the volume associated with the project and the volume that's traveling on chander and the way it arrives there may be one or two three cars queed there at one point and then the next 8 10 15 cars coming in don't have any queue because they just allow uh the the free flow into the facility so when we Analyze This the 95th percentile queue or the Q number that 95% of the data Falls at or below is one vehicle uh similarly coming out and the reason we separated the driveway into a left and a right turn lane was to allow vehicles to not necessarily get stuck behind the one guy wanting to make a left we Analyze That and both the um the eastbound left and right turn lane have uh anticipated cues during the busiest time which this is the afternoon School peak hour of two vehicles or less and we have provided enough queuing on that approach to accommodate that queue so that we can um have safe and efficient access to and from the site by the proposed driveway so what that shows to me is with the improvements that are proposed and the analysis that we're finding there is capacity in the adjacent roadway system to accommodate the traffic that's associated with the project and the levels of service that we anticipate are uh acceptable and it as I mentioned will provide safe and efficient access to and from the site um so now we can go into we can go back to A4 I believe for the overall site plan rendering I know there was um a multitude of testimony given both by Mr Henry as well as Ben at the prior hearings um as well as the architect on the number of students and the parking and what we're proposing and the requirements that are met I can briefly touch back on that and tell you that each one of the schools has been designed to meet the ordinance requirements set forth by the township um in fact we and without any credit for the EV reductions that are allowed by the state we are physically providing a space for every uh one that's required by your ordinance so I think the parking is been designed to easily accommodate any demand um generated by the project without any spillover into the proposed uh proposed roadway or the surrounding roadway Network um so just to give you an overall picture of that 343 spaces are required for all four schools combined if you were to take the EV credit that would be reduced to 329 spaces required and we are providing 345 spaces um total throughout the site um there was some question about the stacking for buses we have designed we've worked hand inand with Mr Henry and his team to design a an area to adequately accommodate all the buses that are designed for each one of the facilities um I can step you through uh lot by lot if we want to um at the boys Elementary School we are providing a maximum five bus stack along the front of the building uh with five maximum at dismissal so that's the boy High School look over here along the face of that building there is stacking for five vehicles uh five buses excuse me that and that's what we anticipate maximum at the dismissal similarly at the boys Elementary School um sorry I had that backwards the boy's high school has a four bus stack with a three bus maximum the elementary school has five bus stack along the face um with a five buck five bus maximum at this missile excuse me the girls on Lot B the girls Elementary School is providing a six bus stack and a six bus maximum at the anyone the dismissal times and law uh C which is the boys Elementary on the uh west side of the property is providing a sis six bus stack with a six bus maximum during dismissal there is a point I want to clarify there was some commentary I think and maybe some Miss uh information with regards to the total number of buses that created some confusion at the last one for the girls Elementary we do anticipate a total of 17 buses for the girls Elementary School all right that is spread out over a dismissal of three different times so we anticipate six six and five buses to be able to um as they dismiss in the afternoon but yes there are a total of 17 buses not 11 as was previously testified to and that's based again off that estimation of 45 students per boss and just for clarification purposes the girls come in separate buses in the boys correct that is correct so yes I should I should mention that we calculated the the number of Parental drop off the number of buses and the number of Staffing individually for each one of the uh proposed buildings and we then search charge them all together to get the total traffic coming to the site and that was included in the traffic study that is correct that is all detailed within the traffic study yeah um there was some question about where the buses will be staged uh prior to the pickup so in an arrival time the buses are going to come they're going to pull along the face of the building they're going to discharge the children and then they're going to leave the site in the afternoon we anticipate the bus is arriving just prior to when they need to uh pick up the children for dismissal and then they will exit the site there's no anticipation of storing buses on the facility anywhere other than the times that they're there to pick the children up um and then the final thing Donna I think I want to go into is exhibit 14 which was just recently submitted to the board I do have 14 copies yeah sure and if we can put exhibit A14 up on the site plan up on the screen I'd appreciate it and and just just so the record is clear the if you could just point out the the deviations between what was just submitted and um what's absolutely so exhibit 14 is entitled so exhibit A14 is entitled site plan exhibit is prepared by Dynamic engineering with a date of uh February 13 2024 and the only difference in this exhibit between what you've already seen is a modification to the entrance driveway between Chandler Road and the first um entrance to the schools now this modification is a direct result of this being classified no longer as a public roadway and more is a private roadway there are certain standards that have to be applied for municipal roadways that are no longer required for the private road it's really and I apologize I probably should have blown up that area it's very difficult to see at this scale but what we were able to do if you'll recall we had 50 if you can zoom in I guess right on this area that'd be awesome all right we got everybody looking this way so what we were able to do um within the same 50 feet of pavement that we were originally proposing is to take this and separate it into two an Ingress only aisle and an egress only aisle right each one of those are proposed to be 18 ft in width and that allows us a 14t Boulevard through the middle that's intended to be planted most likely landscaped we haven't determined potentially treed all that will be designed and Mr Henry will testify to the actual specifics of that when he comes back but I wanted to walk you through this because the design came more from our work with with them um and the ability to um maybe enhance the entrance over what was out there before the reason I gave you the dimensions is I very specifically chose those Dimensions um I Heard the concerns that were that were given with regards to multiple access points and what happens if the aisle the one access point gets blocked how do Emergency Services get in how do children get out so we had the ability to take a look at this and I looked at the guidance of the New Jersey Department of Community Affairs right and their publication uh the residential site Improvement standards I understand that this is not a residential project but they have the same concerns for residential developments that only have a single point of access and they within the uh within the residential site Improvement standards set forth Dimensions exactly for this for a Boulevard entrance and the rationale behind the 18 foot is should one of those be blocked the 18 foot provides a width for two-way traffic to still be able to flow in and out of the site so I thought that the guidance of the the state of New Jersey was a good way to look at this hearing the concerns that the board had with multiple points of access and so if um as I said this is currently being fine-tuned fully designed landscape potentially and will be part of a resubmission that comes from Dynamic engineering addressing this and other issues but it's something I kind of wanted to talk to the board about uh because I thought it was a great question about the um the the safety of to and from the site and also the real necessity of having 50 ft of pavement out there uh for the whole length of the uh the axis aisle so essentially in conclusion the three things that my responsibility of the project were was to research the traffic impact of the proposed Project based on the capacity analyses that we've conducted there is that sufficient capacity to accommodate the traffic in the uh the surrounding roadway Network and the site driveway will operate safely and efficiently as required uh the parking and layout of the individual sites have been very carefully crafted and designed to meet uh ordinance standards and to provide for good circulation and stacking throughout the facility and the boulevard style access I think provides enhanced benefit to the access to the site thank you that's all the direct testimony Mr grari you want to cross how you doing pretty good uh just uh I don't I don't really have a lot of questions but in the very beginning I think you gave testimony with regard to two intersections correct and I thought one was on Chandler Road in the Ingress and egress out to Chandler Road so the two intersections that we conducted traffic counts at are Jackson Mills and Chandler which is at the North End of the facility in the connection to the county roadway Network and heisen Road and Chandler which is at the South End okay are either of those intersections shown on this exhibit 814 they are not no pardon no they are not is there an exhibit uh that you could put up on the board that would show us where they are located at so exhibit A1 can highlight the intersection of Jackson Mills we do not have an exhibit for the intersection of um heis it's approximately a little over a mile south of the facility okay uh so referencing A1 again the property is shown in yellow in the middle to the north is the intersection of Jackson Mills Road okay uh has it determinated been made if you're able to make it is what percentile of the student body who will be going to this project would come from families who are residents of Jackson Township so we did not specifically look at residents of Jackson Township we looked at more took a more Regional approach to it we do anticipate that approximately 30% of the traffic will be uh derived from the north and coming through Jackson Mills Road with about 70% um from the south and Chandler uh heisen road but you have not have you made a determination are you able to make an approximation of what percentile of students will come from families who are residents of Jackson Township no that's not part of my purview what we do work with is the applicant of a regional area of where they're going to be drawing from so that we can then regionally look at how they're going to arrive at the site okay when you're speaking of in terms of a regional area as relating to this site can you tell us what municipalities you took into consideration in determining what that Regional area is again we didn't get that granual with the information what we look at is who's traveling again knowing the intersections we're studying who's traveling from the north along Jackson Mills Road and going to be coming south and turning left into Chandler who's arriving from the south who's arriving from the West over there similarly we do the same at the other end so it's not specifically like on this street these three houses are going to be sending children here we're looking at a regional area to um draw into the two intersections that we studied plus the site driveway assuming for the sake of argument that you're talking of a regional area let's assume uh that this particular project is in the epicenter of that region how far out would you say you've gone out to attract students who are within that region one mile two miles three miles see that's not that's not the way we look at it what I'm telling you is we analyze the approaches to the intersections that we that we looked at um which is above and beyond what's technically required for the permitted use but we looked at those intersections anticipating 30% coming from the jock Mills um intersection and 70% coming from the heis okay let me ask you this question have you had any discussions uh well it's it's my is it your understanding that the applicant will also be the operator of these schools or do you not know the answer to that question I believe that was already asked and answered why so I do not know whether the operator and the is going to be or the owner is is going to be the operator now so as an expert you have no knowledge as to where the operators of this facility anticipates drawing its students from that's not what I said uh we did work hand inand with the applicant to determine a re a reasonable and rational uh distribution of where the student population would be coming from what what did they tell you we essentially what we utilized for our traffic analysis pardon me essentially what we utilized for our traffic analysis the 30% to the North and the 70% to the South but but no no percentile as to the actual municipalities that'd be coming from or the number of students no because that granual data isn't relevant to my analysis okay now it's my understanding that with regard to this project there are four schools where it's anticipated will be constructed correct that's correct uh do you have any knowledge or were you provided with any knowledge as to exactly how those schools would be operated in other words is it possible that more than one of those schools would be operated as a high school now it's my understanding that we are proposing the one high school two boys elementaries and one girls Elementary and is your understanding that your testimony based upon that is that that is all they can propose to construct on this site because your traffic studies are predicated upon that yes all my analysis is based upon the assertion of the student and type of facility that's set forth in the application now just and I very briefly uh it's my understanding that with regard to the high school uh I think uh the arrival time is where sumers is around 9:30 and the uh dispersal times go until 10 pm do you have any breakdown with regard to the total number as to how they will be apportioned over that time period so the boys high school 9th grade uh arrives at 7:45 and departs at 9:30 p.m. 10th through 12th is 7:45 a.m. to 10:30 p.m. with regard to the evening hours uh when it's dark out uh have you formulated any opinion as to whether or not with regard regard to let's say the Ingress and egress on Chandler Road that there must be uh a police officer conducting traffic to ensure safe Ingress and erress no I don't think that's necessary okay I have no further question Mr Peters Madam chair Mr tayor thanks for your slow and deliberate and understandable presentation we're not sure we agree with it 100% but we understood it thank you for telling me for that we thank you um do you have access to a copy of your report revised through August 3rd of 23 yes yes I do I just I just want to make reference to it it'll be easier as to as part of the record surely um on page seven table five is the arrival and dismissal schedule um yes that's correct your office utilized that as the basis for trip distribution as shown in your report correct that's correct and should this applicant or a future operator of the site decide to change these hours that would change the results of your report yes if the uh dismissal times change the analysis I don't know would be better or worse but if they absolutely my point more to the attorneys is this is an integral part of the application if this is how we're going to have students arrive arrive and depart and that's the basis of the report that's before us if the board were to act in the affirmative it has to be part of the resolution um and it has to go I guess with the land in other words if someone else comes in and says well we're going to change something and they the traffic report isn't any good at that point it would need to come back before the board so I think it's important to note that both from the applicant side as well as the planning board side that that arrival and dismissal schedule is an integral part of this report and the discussion it's going to be had by the board and the public going forward um Mr Taylor at the same table um the girls Elementary School arrival times both the primary and the 1 through 8th grade are both 9:00 a.m. and I'm wondering how that reconciles with the number of buses that are necessary to drive drop those students off and the ability for the site plan layout to accommodate them it's a great question um so if we could that's the only one you get tonight I'll take it um if we can go to I don't know where if we can go to A7 please excellent thank you so as I mentioned um along the face of the building oh you let me put it over here along the face of the building we have uh a drop off area that can accommodate six buses and the reason we did that was that's how the breakdown in the afternoon of the kids uh the girls leaving in the morning it is 9:00 a.m. and we do anticipate um approximately 17 buses coming but if you ever watch the way schools operate they don't all show up at the same time for drop off in the morning there's a rolling thing you know maybe there's uh traffic on one of the streets and takes them a little bit longer so what they can do is they will pull forward the six bses will be able to drop if you have more than that we have sufficient capacity in Lot B to accommodate all 17 of those buses they will not drop the children off in the middle of the parking lot they will wait their turn be able to pull forward and drop off but we have designed this to ensure that all 17 of those buses would be contained if they all showed up at the same time on that site I guess the reason I asked the question is it seemed that for the rest of your testimony as it relates to the dismissal times that they were staggered so you wouldn't get more than four or five or six at each of the three new locations um but it would seem to me that if if you're going to get 17 buses that are going to access this this site at 9:00 at some point in time someone's going to tell them don't bring them all in at the same time so I'm I'm wondering if if the arrival and dismissal schedule will really reconcile what the real world conditions are so we we've separated these times the dismissal times is frequently as 30 minutes um and I I guess I just want to make sure and it may not be your responsibility but if as a practical matter 17 buses show up to a place that has the capacity for dropping off six at a time they going to be stacking of buses whether it's 1 or 11: there's going to be some buses that stack up behind the six at whatever time they let them get out to get to school at 9:00 and I guess my question is would there be any negative impact to your report if they staggered the arrival times for the girls Elementary School for either the primary or the first through e8th grade students I think the answer to that is no we do in our analysis assume that they're all coming in if we were to potentially bump that back by half an hour you would actually have less traffic in the peak hour that we analyze so it would come down if we were to bump it Forward half an hour it would essentially be the same analysis right because we're saying and as a traffic engineer we analyze the peak hour it would fall within the uh the am peak hour that we studied I guess as we're working on a blank canvas and we're putting together the best plan it just seems to me that all the other schools have reasonable accommodations either by the number of number of spaces dedicated for dropping off students in front of the building or the Staggering of arrival and departure times here and as plainly as I can say and it's not a criticism of your testimony it says 9:00 and I've got 17 buses that are going to show up in a place where six can operate at one time so I may be able to offer something to this which will have to be vetted by Mr Henry in his civil design but the reason we talk about six is there's currently sidewalk only along the face of the building there is the potential to extend sidewalk around to the southern side and around to the northern side potentially to create some additional stacking area if it's a concern to the board the only reason I use six is because that's what we could fit in the sidewalked area of that site plan yeah just for the record that's not our intent is to ask you to put more sidewalk and have buses dropping students off further from the school I I'm not a proponent of that idea but I I appreciate your response to the question um moving on you had indicated all I'm not sure I found the actual description of trip distribution um I I found it on the um the figures and the appendix of the report um the 3070 trip distribution can you go into a little more detail I'm not going to ask in the same manner that perhaps Mr gazari did but I'm trying to get an understanding of um was there a demographic study was there an existing traffic flow study was was there something that reconciled 30% of the traffic is going to make a left leaving the site which means 30% of the draw came from the north of the site and 70% of the vehicle are going to leave and make a right so 70% of the traffic is generated from the south I'm not the idea the site generates traffic I don't think we disagree about how much there is the volume of traffic the trip distribution as as I think Mr gazari was trying to opine and I think you were trying to describe is based upon where the draw is and so I'm wondering if you have any more Det detailed information about where the 370 split came from because my follow-up question will be what happens if it's 5050 or some other number so it's a great question um what two them one night don't expect anymore I was talking to my client when when we look at uh distribution and origin destination um sometimes in a retail establishment you can look at general population to figure out where people live and where they would be coming to sometimes you can look at census data for where people work and where they reside in this type of situation we don't have that ability so what we do rely on is the input of the people that are looking and have determined the need for this site in this location and so I worked hand inand with the applicant to come up with an area that we thought that really described where the traffic was coming to and from regionally and then I broke it down into these the impact to those uh those studyed locations we'll call that a good answer thank you I'm trying um the um the existing traffic light at Jackson Mills and um and chanler Eli Harmony um have you had conversations with the county about your impact on that traffic light and what if any um improvements might need to be made to that intersection whether physical or signal timing so I have um based upon the analysis that we project on the traffic through the intersection they did not require any improvements to that intersection as it relates to the heisen road and Chandler Road intersection you had indicated that in in summary that the increase in traffic volume generated by this site might exceed the capacity of the intersection and take you to level of SE service f and the reconciliation of that was that there would be a traffic light to be installed at that intersection that's correct can you go into a little more detail about are you guys going to do the traffic light all by yourself yes that's the intention okay and will that need to be done before the first building opens up I would say uh we haven't looked at it in a staged uh analysis like that but I would say probably I guess here's my concern from the from the town's perspective let's assume that the application gets approved what's the trigger to get a traffic light because a traffic light isn't like taking four cones and putting it out around something and saying please slow down a traffic light takes a significant period of time to get approved and constructed correct correct so I'm trying to find that that threshold above which the use of the site would require the traffic light to be installed so what I what I would recommend we had believe that we had this once prior in 2023 uh in in a similar type of application but I believe that uh if the applicant would be amendable and I think they should be um we would the we would restrict as a condition of approval um the applicant being able to get the construction permits prior to um the light being up I believe that's what we did in in a prior applic uh I I think it's I think I think it was maybe a CO I I thought it was construction that we discussed previously because of the construction vehicles going in and out of the property I mean honestly it's not something we typically anal I haven't spent much time on that road maybe I could understand it but I've spent 50 years going down down that road so I I know that road extremely well and uh I would be concerned about construction vehicles also making left turns it's the left turn situation there it's a it's a very dangerous intersection there are smaller roads coming in from the North and the South um that feed in there you've got um uh a a Housing Development over here you you got a dirt road over here you've got another um intersection that used to be a straight through road that 195 cut in half so I'm concerned about those leftand turns and construction vehicles are just as dangerous as buses you know during that time so that would be one of my concerns yeah one of the reasons why I also brought that up was that we're not looking at a phasing plan here either so if they're going to be doing it they're going to be doing it probably unanimously across the board um so I would you know stipulate I would request the applicant stipulate that it'd be functional prior to uh getting the permits so can we just put a pin in that for now if we back bring it I don't want to cut Mr Peters off either I just I was thinking that we did that we don't need him to come back and say yes or no be Happ to we need you to come back and say yes or no but you know I mean the gentleman is here and his consult with your client and then we'll go from there Mr Peters will keep going here just one more um I wanted to spend a few moments at the Chandler Road driveway um and I believe Mr Henry may have left some of the explaining to you so you remember that when you see him um can you describe what the existing condition of Chandler road in front of the driveway is General pavement width um lines of sight that sort of traffic and transportation sure information because I'm not sure if Mr Henry specifically discussed what exists along your property's Frontage and at the location where you're proposing your access driveway or road uh sure so I can tell you one of the main things we look at when we lay out access driveways is sight distance sight lines um we are on a curved portion of Chandler Road here now luckily we're on the outside of the curve which provides better sight lines in both directions than being on the inside of the curve but we did ensure that the location that we are proposing is going to provide clear and sufficient Astro sight lines for um for the property um to the extent of the roadway WID I actually don't have [Music] that yeah I apologize I don't Rec quality it wasn't meant to be a trick question I just wanted to get some of the existing condition information on the record for the board members and the [Music] public and Miss Jennings if if if you want to we can come back to this at some point later I'm sure there's going to be comments and questions from the board in the public I don't want to I don't want someone to be in the H to get me information it might not be correct we can just come back and revisit it later if you want can I get back to you on that yeah and so I'd like to like you to have explain to the board I think you talked about the horizontal site distance perhaps the vertical sight distance um what what's being proposed longear Frontage normally the town would get roadway improved movements in accordance with the hierarchy of the street and then I think The $64,000 Question is what exists on the other side of the center line and is it safe to have vehicles coming from the south um even with your 95% Queue at the driveway at the site driveway only having one vehicle is the existing condition safe or satisfactory for folks to get by there not asking you to solve the existing problem I'm asking for you to explain to the board and the public what a safe and practical design for the driveway intersection is not saying it's your client's responsibility I just I'd like like to get a little more about the site driveway so that the board and the public both understand what your responsibility is and what's being proposed at this point so we can sort of get in line and have that information for cross-examination and disc discussion but that's all I have for now Madam chair so I I guess I can give you a partial answer on that I can tell you that the design of the roadway will be maintained at one lane in each Direction there is no propose to necessarily widen the road to uh to a width to accommodate more than one lane of traffic that being said it's one of the reasons I I spent some time on the cu's because that is of concern if it was a queue of five six eight Vehicles there might be con some concern with vehicles backing up there but I um but I don't have that considering that we found the 95th percentile cues to be uh one vehicle or less um I do believe that the width of the roadway is sufficient to accommodate the traffic it is something I looked at and I can get you the exact figures on that or I can have Mr Henry return and touch on that with his NE uh with his testimony coming up in the future but again it's something that we verify when we're looking at it to make sure that there is uh sufficient with for safe and efficient access to the site thank you Mr Cay thank you madam chair um staying on the um the topic of the Chandler Road um driveway intersection I think you had indicated that um Chandler Road was a minor collector it's a actually a major collector roadway per the uh njd straight lines great um and although your your traffic study may not indicate that any roadway improvements are required and everything is going to you know function fine doesn't the applicant would have an obligation to bring that roadway up to what the master plan calls for as far as pavement width yes absolutely um I don't know if Mr Henry has designed it to that point or not but it's absolutely the right of the Township to ask the half with along our Frontage to be upgraded to master plan with but nothing's on the plans that we're looking at tonight that show those those improvements um so that was more under the purview of Mr Henry and I will make sure that he does either update the plans in the Next Generation or have a have an answer for you but it's it's absolutely your right to ask for that okay thank you um yeah I would just like to request if the plans can reflect that just so that it's I will make sure the plans reflect that and um i' I've kind of always struggled with the idea of a 70 foot RightWay and 50 foot of Paving and now that we're going to a private road we don't really have to deal with the 70 foot right away and I would agree the 50 Foot of Paving is is is appropriate as we get to Chandler and I I do really like the idea of the of the boulevard to be able to provide for some emergency access um thoughts on some breaks in that Boulevard absolutely there we will need to as um as I mentioned this is a concept because I knew it was something that the board was concerned about when you get the revised set of plan set of plans there should be breaks and turnarounds about every two to 300 feet in case you erroneously turn down there and then you want to be able to turn around we would I would propose unless you have something other in mind that we just continue to follow the rsis medium break requirements that that's fine I think that's that's a good you know a guideline or a good guance document um and we have the um the boulevard from Chandler um I'll say to the um the intersection where the first first school comes in and it looks like we're maintaining that 50 foot of pavement width from there up to the culdesac and I'm I'm questioning the need for that wide of a a pavement section when we have adequate parking on site we have proper um stacking on site the uh the driveways um indicated there's no parking do we really need 50 foot of Paving um I mean no we don't uh one of the reasons we left it was because of the location of the various driveways the median gets very chopped up through there um and so we had just intended to leave it but if it were the board suggestion or requirement I think we could look at narrowing that cartway um to provide something more akin to just a standard roadway with one of one of the thoughts and one of the you know uh inklings behind it was we had also heard some potential concern with buses that didn't show up only when they were supposed to pick the kids up and the last thing we wanted was them waiting out on Chandler Road so we thought that potentially if we left some WID in there if you have the erant bus driver that doesn't pay attention to what we've told him he has to or she has to I'm sorry um there's some room built into there to accommodate that uh that overflow but I have no problem personally I don't think that that's something that's going to happen and I have no problem narrowing that down a little bit if that's a suggestion I I just thought they always thought the 50 Foot was was kind of excessive and and the last last question um as a public Road 50 foot wide um there was no island but now that we have it a private road there is an island correct um the rationale behind the island really was the guidance of DCA and the rsis to provide the boulevard um and the multiple widths the the the 50 Foot Dimension comes out of uh the municipal requirement for the type of roadway and the traffic that we were projecting for the site and I would agree I'm just wondering why it wasn't say on the table as a public road but now that it's private we need it and we want to do it why wasn't it I guess put on the table right out of the box I I will go back to the fact that the the municipal ordinances required a 50 foot paved cartway for the roadway as designed and so we were in order to make sure we were meeting ordinance requirements even though I didn't you know I don't personally think it's necessary for that width um we were trying to become as variant free as possible for the application and so we were providing that width now that we're not beholden to the the municipal standard for a public right away and public roadway we have the ability to kind of come up with a better design for the road and I I agree this is you know definitely a better design I was just curious as you know private no public or I'm sorry private no public yes but that's thank you all right um I think Mr Shay might have something to add so so before uh before the board this kind of for the general public uh their knowledge for the board's knowledge um I just want to set the foundation for which the board has a jurisdiction what they can look at they can't when it comes down to traffic it's kind of a a tricky subject when it comes down to what a board can take into consideration uh can't take into consideration a board can take into consider let me start with this a board can't take into consideration uh any offsite conditions offsite traffic now what does that mean that that means that um a board can't solely deny an application based upon the fact that a road is too congested or there's too many um there's too many accidents on a road or the road is too dangerous or or something to that effect um it's very broad it's very general what a board can take into consideration what it's looking at an application is the the safety and the efficiency of the Ingress and the egress of the site um and also Additionally the the safety and efficiency and circulation plan that takes place on the site itself so in the parking lot when it comes down to the buses in front of the schools and and the traffic flow and the ins and outs everything like that but more importantly the Ingress and egress um now when it when it what you've seen tonight is the applicant concede to to certain uh offsite pratus share contributions are going to make um to the building of of uh the light on the uh main entrance of the street um and I I don't believe that we've hit on other aspects of this but typically what happens is the situation where the applicant is considered is is concerned about the you know egress uh Ingress of a site they'll they'll typically um enter into some kind of uh conditions for the application uh to make sure that the that the entry and exit is safe and efficient um just just so that we have the sandbox that we're all playing with the the public knows what the board can take into consideration what they can't um and to benefit you guys when you coming up and asking cross-examining questions so that you know you come in and you're asking about traffic that's taking place 2 miles down the road that the board's hands are kind of tied due to case law for certain types of of off-site traffic just so that everybody's aware as the board members is aware the general public is aware this is the sandbox that we play in this is what we're restricted to uh the jurisdiction for taking into consideration the um the traffic and um the accidents and everything like like that that happens on every single road is actually the jurisdiction of the zoning board um so you got to make sure that we're not overstepping our grounds by by taking that uh into consideration so so that is the playing field that we're operating with at the planning board level that's it now uh here's the plan going forward we'll let the board uh ask any questions they may have of this witness then we're going to take a 10-minute break and I mean 10 minutes uh and then come back and have the public as many as would like to ask questions come forward all right so if anyone on the board has any questions could have bet money Mr TR all right um not microphone can you hear me how about now all right so the number of students roughly almost 2600 correct uh yes as per last testimony number of staff is close to 260 255 okay um parking spot is 343 What's the total number of buses you think could be in there at one time so what we did when we broke it down is we looked looked at when each um when each School individually was uh arriving and departing and then we uh eded them together for our peak hours um during any one of those busy peak hours the most bus trips we had was about uh 39 so you could possibly have 39 buses that's correct that's in theory theory of them being full to the max every time which is not very likely no no so the buses that we utilize these type-c buses um have a capacity of 72 students how many 72 we for our analysis assumed only an occupancy of 45 so you're telling me you're going to put 72 kids on every bus if you can I would say that they would minimize the number of bus trips if they could if they could chain people together in a perfect world in a perfect world but in order to for it's not a perfect world we use about a 65% occupancy rate for the buses to generate the traffic and that's still highly unlikely but possible I think that's possible highly unlik but could be highly unlikely too I no I mean I think I think it's a reasonable estimation of the number of students you're going to have on these buses fair enough um so you're figuring roughly 10% of the parents may be driving yes uh what we find is between 5 and 10% and so we utilize 10% as the upper bound so 10% so you're talking at least 260 cars possibly coming in plus the staff from 260 cars so you're talking like 550 cars coming in in a very close period of time so during the morning the busiest hour in the morning as people come because that's really the big concentration of all that we anticipate approximately 407 total trips between staff parental drop off and bus trips if you have 260 staff there's no guarantee anybody's car pooling and if you have 2600 students at 10% that's 260 and almost 40 buses that's CL 600 well what you need to realize is the analysis periods that we do as Traffic Engineers concentrate everything down into a peak hour the busy EST hour what we assumed here is absolutely no car pulling for staff every one vehicle per staff member um that 10% um drop off pickup by parental and then the bus trips but what we're missing is the fact that all the stuff does not come in during that one hour so the highest peak hour that we analyzed like I said is a total of 407 vehicles and that's the analysis that's set forth in the traffic study with the level of services that are quoted well yeah in theory yes if if your numbers are correct it could be 20% honestly what we find is closer to five but that's I mean it's and this is a very special school and a very special area too so it could be anything could it anything's possible yes anything is possible thank you um they stated the last time we're going to stick with no students are going to be walking that's correct ever that's our uh assumption that yes no that's assumption but now if the kids were walking there's no sidewalks for them to get in on your private road we would ConEd to make thatal no walk make that a condition of approval no Walkers correct thank you okay all right um and on your private road it's got street lights it will be appropriately lighted yes all right um you Peak traffic hours um you're thinking more not level a uh B or C but more e andf correct so with the proposed improvements we have no levels of service F it's something that we identified that we are mitigating um other than that yes we're anywhere between uh an A and an e but that's like your 7030 it's all un assumed there's no fact to it you don't know where these people coming from realistic basically you could have 70% coming from Jacksonville's Road correct based upon the uh the information provided to us of where the rationale for building this facility the 730 uh split was a good approximation of where the the directional distribution would come from what is that information come from it's coming from the applicant who was doing analysis of why they want to build this facility so this is just an algorithm there's no real anything except Theory oh no they could be coming from anywhere correct so the the analysis gets done is where do they think these sending areas are going to be for I understand analis and so then weti I'm asking for a fact is there any fact to this there's absolutely fact to this right there's an analysis that's gets done by the the developer that's looking for it because they've determined that this is a place in need of these facilities is this analysis done in Ocean and MTH County or is this like a international it's Mammoth and Ocean County it's it's the general local of where the facility is and I apologize for my attitude I just don't like Theory I don't like could be you know it's like playing a lottery I Could Be A Millionaire tomorrow but I didn't buy a ticket I would say the analysis that we do is B based upon factual engineering assumptions that that need to be done for any type of development um they are factually based on real world analysis that gets done okay so you and you sat on Jackson Mills Road and watched the traffic during peak hours yep I commute that way sometimes absolutely pretty good traffic backups right there is traffic on Jacksonville's Road absolutely yeah so it's it's like Dr Campbell said it's logistically a very interesting spot and I know it's something not in our purview well but it's a grave concern and I know the crowd is going to hammer you on this absolutely it's one of the reasons we knew the sensitivity of the traffic in the area right it's one of the reasons we've submitted this also to the county for review right because both of those inter County left at you didn't they um no not at all I sat down with the County engineer to discuss the potential signal at heis and the analysis at jackon Mills right but you have a light 150 ft away so they can't put a light at 150 ft apart well that's I mean the the volume that we're talking about here doesn't warrant the level of a traffic signal does not meet any of the warrants within the manual and uniform traffic control devices so to say that you couldn't it's not impossible to put a light in that if your algorithm is is correct well the analysis based on the trip generation showing um the the amount of volume that we have coming out yes does not warrant and further really the rationale for not needing the signal is the existing volumes along Chandler Road right there's a Mainline component and a side street component that goes into the analysis and the level of traffic along Chandler Road does not come anywhere near reaching the level of warrany that traffic signal so whether or not my numbers that I have projected are higher or lower the the real world volume on Chandler Road is the real world volume on Chandler Road oh yeah it's going to be a massive track traffic jam at certain times um but you know again again that's that's something something for for zoning to take care of um the driveway coming in why did you decide to put an island in the middle um as I testified to I believe one there's an aesthetic benefit to it but more to the traffic side of it we heard concern about multiple access points and so I looked to guidance that the state of New Jersey has given on how to accomplish something like this when there are challenges there are great challenges we have um not that many other options on how you would get out of this facility so we within that confines they give very clear guidance that a barded section M accomplishes the concern of providing multiple access points all right well I'm going to put have you ever driven a fire truck ambulance or police car I have not I have driven a school bus though okay driving a school bus you turn in there's a car broken down and this car is coming out the other way you getting in uh yeah there's 18 ft there's enough room to bypass that vehicle uh that's broken down in that 18 ft okay so now what if that car is on fire and everybody's afraid to get around it I would assume if the car was on fire they would be um discouraging people from entering the facility but you missed the point of the last time we talked about this you took away the space for an emergency vehicle if anything the center should be wide open so if there's cars on the left and cars on the right you can get a vehicle in and out this is 2024 and we have massive threats with a lot of different things going on today we live in a very strange time and my concern is you need to make this wide open and safe you need to be able for people to escape and walk up and down the side of that road if there's no sidewalks which Miss Jenning said that they would consider and I appreciate that but you have to understand where my mind is and it's Public Safety you're can hear that every time I I speak this way because that's been my job my whole life and it's a big concern it's bad enough we have massive traffic now we have a major problem so I would like for you to consider that in your thoughts understood um let me see here street lights all right that's it uh that's that's enough for now thank and my only response to the last comment is we would leave it up to the board we had it as a 50 foot wide and we were kind of given instruction otherwise and so Mr CLE even said he liked the boulevard so really whichever way the board wants to go we are not married to one way or the other so that'll just be a decision from the board to make we can we can do that at another time I just want to say one thing Mr Brey uh I spent 40 years in one of my torturous jobs was dealing with busing in a Regional School System it it is like living in hell and you've got you've got and there is no way they're going to be filling buses there going to be 15 students on this bus coming from over here and there are going to be 12 students from this bus coming from over here and and I did it for 40 years years I I know what it's like it's it's going to be a challenge we have to help you fulfill this challenge in this situation and and that's what we're also here to do we want to make it viable we want to make it safe but we I lived that life and I know what an algorithm might say this is the way it's going to be but I worked in two different systems in parochial schools with busing and I know that it it will never have 45 students on a bus they will be 25 students on a bus or 30 or 10 or 12 and that and that's going to be the challenge that you know the people who are running these schools are going to deal with they're going to be small buses they're going to be big buses it's it's not going to be what you think it will be in a perfect world Mr brzy yeah well before you said that I was going to say something about the busing you had 40 years I had 20 years involved with it um and it is a headache uh but at certain points some bus companies if they couldn't get a minimum amount on the kids on the bus they will not take the bid and that's how they got them up uh in all honesty that was one of the things that helped close the school in St Veronicas was the busing issues because they couldn't get the enrollment and fill the buses and the companies wouldn't take the the bids uh back to the center Island I I I like the center Island I think it was a nice feature to add it in I was concerned when you said you're going to put trees in the center Island I believe not for looks if it could be something mountable so if there's a true emergency somebody could just make it mountable curves go over it and then you have totally open a fire trucks need a little back room for the back wheels to go over it it mounts and goes over I think it should be something done nicely looks nice maybe uh grass blocks like they do whatever they use the fire trucks can go over or in any emergency VI can go over but if I like the the parkway effect but I think that Center has to be left open for emergency use that's just my opinion thank you anyone else from the board yes I have questions uh some comments just so uh good evening thanks for being here tonight so Justin Taylor you're it's the August 23rd study is this the I'm just holding up yes I'm just confirming that's the one okay um I want to keep my questions or comments confined to what what our role is I do want to ask you a couple of questions um the first question I want to ask and then I have questions about how the traffic impact studies are are designed or what the standards are is just to ask you just just clearly do you have any traffic safety concerns whatsoever with this site from your professional training and experience I do not and let me just expound a little bit upon that one of the reasons there there are several metrics that we look at from a safety perspective one is from an access it's Clear Sight lines do we have the ability for people to make a judgment call to enter and exit the site as I have mentioned we do and the location that is proposed being on the outside of that curve are able to provide what ashto requires for uh safe sight lines the second point is the operation of the driveway and the queuing if we were to see excessive queuing on there then you run a higher risk of people um getting aggravated and exiting uh exiting the site and we don't see that what we see is cues of one to two vehicles um and third designing the roadway both in compliance with the ordinance standards but then as we've been talking about this Boulevard with what the Department of Community Affairs has determined as a safe and um beneficial layout I think lends itself to the safety and operation of the driveway okay as a traffic expert uh two-part question one are you generally familiar with active shooting situations of schools throughout the country I think the answer is yes but it's yes or no but it's tied to the traffic specific question of if that's yes do you uh take note of the traffic circulation the Ingress and egress with active shooter situations uh throughout the country it's not anything that I've analyzed no okay okay so earlier it was mentioned that there's 2,600 students is that accurate plus or minus my count is 2,463 but yes right around that 2500 Mark okay 2463 students and I think you referenced 255 adults that's correct okay um just so I because I was looking at this but it wasn't clear it are at a prior meeting I believe it was referenced that the owner of this property whoever they may be also owns an adjacent property because we talked about the Ingress and egress issue do you have any other ESS or a synonym exit or synonym Escape Route from this site other than this current entrance did you design another one or have you been asked to look at one that's associated with an adjacent property any other iteration uh we we have not there's a paper Street located in the center of the property um Truman Street uh but the elevation to that and the fact that it's um undeveloped at this time doesn't really lend itself to to utilization um um and any adjacent property has not been investigated for any type of uh alternative access so if you Dr didn't we look at 195 didn't didn't you bring up something about it back I brought up an issue and I thought I don't want to quote the applicant there's an indication that there's adjacent property owned by I I don't want to speak to it because I don't recall exactly but I could just continue and we can pick that up in a minute so I can clarify that they they do own when we originally designing this and this could have been before Justin got involved involved but they own one of the Lots below where the uh the school that sits by itself and we tried to connect it through whatever road is running parallel to there but there's Wetlands so we couldn't we were going to have like a fifth school but we couldn't do it because we couldn't connect So currently I just have C carry on there are no other exits it's just the current exit that you didn't you did redesign an additional exit no no we did not okay and I I thought what was interesting just looking at the traffic impact study there there's there doesn't seem to be any reference at all to Life Safety is that um an industry item a traffic safety engineer issue because in your findings and conclusions you don't speak to um what I'll call it like situational awareness or uh what I'm going to get actually I'm going to Pivot back to my my comments from the last meeting do you review at all scenarios emergency scenarios the the wh ifs essentially tabletop what if if this then what at all because it's not in the study is that something that your Association or from your professional your your certifications and training as a traffic individual you study if there is and for example in this I referenced earlier an active shooter do you do do you look at these scenarios from an oem perspective or any other uh security perspective at all the short answer to that is no it's not something as an industry and the traffic professionals that that we look at it we do rely on the input that we get from Municipal Services appreciate that so because that ties to my my initial question was do you have any from a traffic standpoint any safety concerns whatsoever and you basically indicated no that's what's in your findings okay are there any unique characteristics about this application that are reason person may uh believe has any Enhanced Life safety requirements from a traffic standpoint I honestly can't answer that question that's fine so the other question I have after that you referenced the state not the Bastion of reasonable thought my that's an opinion um but you said that they speak to how to address uh this type of site that has unique characteristics um with the sing single entrance and that kind of thing can you just I don't want you to be labor but can you just expand on that a little bit what state stand I'm sorry what state standard are you kind of overlaying or incorporating into your assessment that this is sound planning sure um what I looked at was the residential site Improvement standards it's njac 5 colon 21 and within that they talk about residential development in New Jersey but they directly address the um the amount of volume that you're allowed the number of access points that are required form a safety perspective and they identify when incumbered on a piece of property that you cannot access multiple driveways that the solution to that in order to provide safe access to the site is to provide the boulevard scenario that we have laid out for you okay in that description does it contemplate isolated sites or the length of it does it speak to um any relationship between the length I'm sorry Anthony can you put up the the item that the over the larger area and then I'll get to go ahead you A4 is the uh the overall site plan okay or the A1 is the aerial okay as you can see my questions are similarly related to safety and it's not the everyday um you know regular oper ations how many buses are coming in or not coming in or what have you I'm talking about the the Carnage that we read on a near daily sadly basis throughout the country and to what extent there's anything unique about this site whether the fact that it's isolated against a major highway whether the fact that it's allowed Highway and it may be difficult to ascertain if there's an emergency in process or whether or not that road if no I'm sorry yeah that long driveway is there one throw A4 yeah and I'm almost done or A14 will work too if you have A14 open yep A14 will work you go and so we're were talking about the yes the the driveway that we Boulevard from Chandler Road to that first uh access point okay so if at the neck of the site Bad actors shut that down on purpose at the neck not at the beginning at the neck nearly 2,500 children are there 255 adults with no Escape Route that's why I'm asking what is the Escape Route if there is no Escape Route and you're backed up against 195 which is loud and it may be hard to hear if there's some Discord there and I use active shooter as a simple example because sadly it's across the country right now and to the extent that there's anything unique or unique characteristics perhaps there's not an active utilization of Technology maybe there is maybe there isn't that's why I'm act asking about from a traffic standpoint if uh parents are flying into the site that area is blocked off where are the cars perhaps that are in the site where are they going if they're not leaving and they're stuck and the police can't get in and the EMS can't get in and the fire can't get in that's what I'm it's not a I think I don't think it's an exaggerated what if it's like what if this isolated site is choked off at the end with 2500 children in it and 255 adults and they need assistance that's where it tie to I I thought it was interesting at the last meeting to the extent that there was another egress Point um isolated site against a major highway I just go back to my first question I'm done do you as a traffic professional have any safety concerns whatsoever based on what I said with this site for your professional training and experience so the only way I can answer that to you from an operational perspective as laid out in the traffic study I do not from a multiple access point I have to look to guidance provided by the New Jersey uh by the state within documentation in in the administrative code which says that when you only have access to one street the way to provide safe multiple access points is the boulevard section that I've given you right and they require you to take it up to the first intersection where there would be multiple ways to um to circulate so that was why we had ended it initially at the first driveway where it connected to the boys high school and the boys Elementary School on the Northern end So based upon the metrics that I utilize I find this access safe is my example um outlandish an exaggeration I'm just asking you from a traffic expert standpoint you've testified in hundreds of applications is my example outlandish outrageous and EXA an exaggeration or is it if fathomable based on what you may or may not have seen throughout the country so it's not something that typically falls under the purview of a traffic analysis for a site plan application so it's not in your wheelhouse and may be an inappropriate question for you I think the um the question that you've asked is a reasonable question I I've given you the answers that I can give based upon the metrics that I have to compare it to from a safety perspective right and that's how I've drawn my professional opinion that it is safe it's a safe and efficient access to the site all right my last question is do personally feel that way I do okay thank you no other questions Mr Sol so what okay um so you stay at 39 buses in the morning am I correct so during the maximum hour that we that's what we anticipated yes okay if say that number was 60 how does that change the traffic pattern and would it still uh pass your inspection if we were to increase that um double yeah I'd have to run the numbers but I would assume that we would still have acceptable levels of service okay and getting back to safety um and I know you you've already stated you know it's not exactly 100% in your purview but the boulevard um will have this island you did State I think earlier I just want to make sure there will be Cuts in this island for emergency services yes the the residential site Improvement standard sets forth a maximum length of run you can go without having a break and we would be willing to obviously break that in that um denominations or shorter if it's the something the board you know if it's 300 feet and the board thinks 200 feet is a better Break um we can also absolutely look into uh Mr bry's comment it's it's actually a very valid comment if we were to plant it with grass but put mountable curbs to allow the crossing between the two I think that goes a long way to Mr tr's comment too right because then it allows you to uh circumnavigate to either side should there be something there all right um that's uh my question I now yield my time to has police or fire looked at this yet to give you their opinion yes we we have comment letters from them okay I don't have the paperwork in front of me I apologize and um they have no problem with single Ingress egress with this so far so they asked for a traffic study which we had provided for the operation of that inter section but other than that no I don't believe they had any act uh concern with a single point of Ingress egress so now with all your revisions it has to go back to them so well no I mean the boulevard doesn't change the Capacity Analysis that's presented it's still the same operation whether it's a Boulevard or it's not a Boulevard okay um what if they actually requested a secondary eess would you be able to do that or is it kind is it too landlocked land yeah I mean we took a hard look we we hear the concerns of the board it's one of the reasons we went back and and came up with this solution because you know we do have Truman streets there but Truman Street up it's unimproved its entire length it connects to another network of paper streets and the elevation between where Truman the top of Truman Street is and where we are makes it non- traversible by emergency vehicles or any other vehicle for that matter even if you were to pave that area but it's not a viable solution unfortunately oh unfortunately your algorithm doesn't quite fix the concerns like Mr wall very clearly put out there and he's 100% correct but you know we will see as time goes on thank you Mr yes um I don't know if you're aware of this I don't usually like State stuff and all their standards I don't think nobody in his board or our professionals do but I got to say many years ago when Nicole thex first thoughted coming in Jackson Township Mr CLE may recall this had ordinances to restrict how to try to control them how many parking lots how many we had that in place then when rsis came in it actually made it better for once so going to the rsis I understand but that was actually an improvement from the town what the township tried to do many years ago anyone else on the board hi um I was looking at the traffic study and I noticed that first of all it was originally issued in November of 2022 so and then you revised it in August on August 3D what are the revisions so the revisions were uh directly attributed to the modification to the schools that were necessary based upon that first review we had additional schools we had things laid out differently and so when we changed that we had to rerun our numbers so that it matched what the current proposal for the facility was so the the tables that we have now are from August 3D yes yes the tables have been updated based upon the current development program of the facility now if you look back um I'm looking at sorry after figure seven you have an appendix B project information yes and you have a start date of June 9th of 2022 what is that so those were the dates that we conducted the physical traffic counts at the intersections so that's like almost two years ago correct we were deemed complete over a year ago but then you did a revision in August 3 and you based it still with the June of 2022 uh yes that's correct we utilized the underlying data that we had collected preliminarily to that um now what I will note is the way we do this and maybe I should have gone a little bit more in depth into how we generate all the traffic is we take that underlying number the physical number that we count and then we apply a background growth rate you know we reach out first to the municipality and the local municipalities to see if there's any projects that have been approved that we should be considering the traffic of but then we also look to the NJ doot for background growth rate because we understand that there is development going on in New Jersey you know that we don't know specifically but that's going to add traffic to say the throughput on Jackson Mills Road or the throughput on heis traveling through the area and we appli that to the existing volumes to grow them out for a couple years so while we collected the data in 2022 we applied these growth rate factors to accommodate the increase in traffic that could have occurred over the last year and a half okay thank you you're welcome anyone else thank you not to be here till midnight that that's the basic plan so you know we're going to really stick to the five minutes the uh residents will be allowed to speak for five minutes and only one time ready all right we're back in session please please thank you proceed okay and just procedurally just so everybody's aware what what's the questions you're going to be asking are cross-examination questions of the expert it's not not General comment we're not there yet right so General comment is going to be at the end of the hearing in its totality so that we're talking about just general statements things like that prepared statements uh any questions that you want to ask specifically as to the uh Traffic Engineers testimony he just gave that would be what we're doing right now and please disclose if you are represented by Council I'll make sure to ask each and every one of you but just as a fair point uh right off the bat all right so please raise your right hand you swear or affirm to tell the truth the hold truth nothing but the truth yes I do please state your name and spell your last name for the record it's Vicky broer b r o d r Four Seasons MAA conch and no I'm not represented by anybody but myself there you go okay thank you um thank you so much what's your first name again Justin okay Justin I love what you did it's great you really explained a lot except I really concerned about the 2022 study that you're basing all this on I think it's really Antiquated and out of date um do you feel that way I do not I think that as a transportation professional utilizing the uh growth rates published by the NJ doot it allows for uh the background growth addition to the base volumes okay and what type of school did you base this on is it an Orthodox Jewish school is it hedum Jewish school so the population that was given to me it was given to me by the client I don't have the specific type of school we have the start times the end times and then the projections for Staffing and that's what we use to build our model okay can you refresh me as to what the start time is for the boys Elementary and the boys middle school and you're eating up my minutes so I'm going to ask you another question as you're doing that here listen I've got so the boys Elementary starts uh 6th 7th and 8th starts at 7:30 uh primary through 5th starts at 8:45 okay so I know everybody talked about all the numbers and the 10% drop here and drop off okay and the fact that you're going to have 39 buses coming in and out these type c buses I agree with the chair lady okay that there is no way that you're going to have a full bus at all okay the other thing is we do not know um who is going to own these four schools the applicant has applied to build these four schools in the event that these four schools are owned by four different people that might do you feel that that might change the layout of this Transportation situation um I do not I think you heard earlier that the start times and and dismissal times are going to be codified in the approval of this project so anybody purchasing that and operating that school is going to be um beholden to the data that I've given you and so the modeling that I've done I think accurately portrays regardless of who owns the facility accurately portrays what's going to happen out there okay but you have the boys Elementary starting at 7:30 and the high school starting at 7:45 um and you said that you had five buses stacked up in elementary and you have I think you said four buses stacked up in the high school I mean all these buses are going to be stacked up and then there's going to be more coming in are the kids going to be let off before 7:45 and be able to go into the school will there be staff supervising them are they going to be let off before 7:30 in the morning because you know everyone gets there for 7:30 is everyone going to be staggered and thrown in have you based your study on that so yes we we anticipate that the students are in the facility at 7:30 so they'll be arriving prior to that and the calculation for the arrival of students in both buses parental drop off and then the Staffing that's coming in necessary for them is accounted for in the model okay I just think that it's going to be outrageously congested and especially with all the parents if anyone's ever been to cross street in the morning okay in Lakewood or in the afternoon you might want to take a look at that pattern ex no public statements thank you oh that's a public statement that was a fact okay thank you I swear to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth help me God you can't hear all right H hang on please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do all right please state your name and spell your last for record Edward flatman 28 Gables Way Jackson New Jersey how do you spell your last name FM Frank l a t m a an all right okay I heard there's going to be 20 647 students is that correct 2643 oh I'm sorry can you put the subdivision map up there what do you mean by the colored one the big one uh that would be exhibit A1 all right if you don't have it don't worry about it I could this is the one you wanted no the other one the one showing all your buildings uh A4 then okay you have builds that sorry you have to use the microphone you got you got to use microphone so his question was there are three buildings that are similar in size and shape there were two small ones that are not so the small one located in the northeast corner is the boy high school and the other building I believe is the pump station that's necessary so basically they're all going to be teaching buildings other than this the very small one is the pump station but the other four are educational facilities of those four buildings is there a dormatory expected no no dormatory nobody going to sleep over no okay um what is the width of Chandler Road at that intersection of your Boulevard so it's approximately 22 to 24 feet that was the number that uh Mr Peters asked 22 to 24 feet I don't have that specific number in front of me it's something that we will be able to provide at the next meeting what you say 23 to 24 22 to 24 feet 2400 Square ft 24t 22 22 or 2 24 okay between 22 and 24 Square ft what's the width of your Boulevard Road the full width of the boulevard Road from side to side was originally 50 ft it's now 18 feet to either side with a uh Boulevard in the middle what is it I'm sorry 18 feet per lane 18 ft yep per Lane okay and that's in both directions that's correct so total pavement width of 36 ft 36 ft going into 28t making turn with school buses that are probably I don't know how big a school bus is but it's pretty big and with 2643 students you if I heard you correctly which I may not have you only have two sidewalks so we have agreed to provide sidewalks let me go back to your first question which was the the access right so the typical school bus is that we base our modeling off of is approximately 40 feet in length right we then utilize that to ensure that it can safely turn to the and from the proposed roadway they're and so the radi provided for the um our driveway our new roadway will be sufficient to allow those turning Maneuvers Ingress and egress you're going to be able to get two buses facing each other to get into that Community yes that's correct okay um the spot on the left coming in okay on the right I'm sorry yes that open area this what's the intention of that so there's a detention Basin water Bas in the uh northwest corner adjacent to the entrance roadway the other portion I believe is undeveloped but that's more of a question further development no not at this time no so that's not going to be developed my understanding is no it do not be developed veled can we stick to traffic questions yeah I think we're we're entering more into the realm of engineering questions and and her the apps what was your answer on this side two sidewalks for 2643 students no sir there are no sidewalks no walk I thought you said you're going to have one up on top and um there no sidewalks no faing there are no sidewalks uh proposed as part of the project no sidewalks no sidewalks no sidewalks good luck thank you all right please raise your right hand you swear or affirm to tell the truth the hold truth nothing but the truth do you swear do do do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth yes I will all right please your name microphone my name is Stanley Dudek I live at 70 Gable's way thank you um not represented by attorney last name is spelled D is in David UD K all right you're not represented by Council not represented by Council no thanks uh have some questions going back to the traffic study that you referred to when was that study done again what so the most recent revision of the traffic study is August 3rd 2023 is that when you did your statistics and you counted the number number of uh vehicles coming through that area so the traffic counts we conducted were done in uh June of 20122 so it was only one time during the year that those accounts were done so we conducted them yes we conducted them on June 9th I believe June 9th okay so at that time of the year I mean the traffic patterns could be very different than it what might be in the winter in the spring in the fall so you didn't do any kind of an average to determine no what we do look at is the NJ do publishes seasonal adjustment factors for various regions within the um within the state and we do correlate the numbers that we find in June with this area of being representative of the Year okay you talked about uh a future development and how that factors in can you tell me what it was that you considered when you were looking at future development so when we start this process what we do is we reach out to the planning and zoning boards of the local municipalities in this case uh given its location it would be Jackson Township and we asked them hey has anything been approved in the last uh you know couple years that isn't constructed that we should be uh concerned with they gave us a traffic study um along Jackson Mills just uh west of Chandler for a Veterinary Hospital other than that they had told us that there were no other developments that needed to be considered as part of our traffic analysis okay so as part of that analysis and maybe the question is first to the board were there schools approved off of farming Dale recently yes okay so the the schools that are maybe as a crow flies 5 miles away many of which those vehicles are going to be going through that same intersection no no okay was that taken into consideration no at the time of our study and the time of our analysis they were they were not an approved project okay so that can factor in I'm not sure the number of buses remember what we said what the attorney said at the beginning s I'm sorry we're not in that sandbox okay then I can't ask my other questions um questions regarding the flow of traffic through the site do you take into consideration um garbage trucks food trucks any other kind of vehicles that could be coming in and what would that be in terms of the impact it's a great question um we do and one of the things we look at is the timing of those food deliveries that uh refuges pick up right in a development like this we have the ability to control those and they show up outside of the drop off and pickup times for the schools so they're able to utilize the same infrastructure that we build to accommodate the school buses uh up and down through the the various School situations okay you talked about the daily start and stop times is that just during the week or is it also on weekends so it's my understanding that the boy High School also operates on Sunday okay not sure whether it this is a traffic question a question for the board are there any other planned uses for these other than schools cannot we cannot discuss these things at this time at this time when when when all the testimony is finished then we can have general questions at this time it's only questions concerning the traffic please okay one last question on traffic has to do with weather weather has a big impact on the scheduling of buses and that flow through so how does weather factor into that flow of traffic in and out um I'm not sure what you're talking about with weather if you um delays delays attributed to weather takes longer to get the kids on the buses takes longer to get to the schools takes longer to get them off of the buses so does that factor in in any way so I I am sure that there are accommodations made by the busing companies when there is potential inclement weather um they still anticipate starting at the times as uh designated in the study and so they would need to accommodate the slightly longer times that might be necessary to pick the children up thank [Applause] you right please raise your right hand you swear or affirm to tell the truth the hold truth nothing but the truth yes I do please state your name spell last the record my name is Jean grotsky 77 Eli Harmony Road Freehold New Jersey I'm on the corner of Eli Harmony in piter pond and are you represented by anybody no my this should end up being pretty brief my question has mostly to do with pedestrian traffic so I hope I'm in the right wheelhouse um the boulevard has sidewalks on both sides no no there are no sidewalks proposed as part of this project so there's no sidewalks at all on the boulevard that's correct okay for foot traffic with 2600 students do you think any one of those students would ever walk off the site no no I mean we we've stipulated that there will be no walking students to and from the facility well if you know if there's no sidewalk in no sidewalk out um can I assume that we would never see a student walking down Chandler Road or listen I can't say never right it's a hypothetical but it's not designed for that and we will not be encouraging or allowing students to come to and from school via walking so the applicant has agreed that as a as a condition of approval there will be no walking to or from okay so if they allow that code enforcement could potentially get involved when the school's in operations yeah I guess my question is boys will be boys girls will be girls um out of 2600 kids I can't imagine one of them not want to go wanting to go down to the minute stop and get a ice cream cone right so um my my my other question has to do with these are high school you know there will be high school kids there yes will a student ever be allowed to drive onto the premises no never nope okay also a condition of approval and just one other question is there any sort of a fence to restrict the students from wandering into the woods around the property excuse me sir that's an engineering question not a traffic question you can ask that at the next meeting thank you all right then I then I apologize and then that that's that's that's my question thank you very much there there would be no need for sidewalks or any pedestrian Improvement on Chandler Road or on going towards heison Road no there are no proposed sidewalks along heison Road all right I mean along Chandler Road excuse me all right those are my questions thank you very much right please raise your right hand do you swear or firm to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth I do all right please state your name for the record and spell your last name sorry my first time uh my name is is Greg Long LG and I live on 16 Park Ridgeway in in Micon and you are not represented by Council I am not I am not um we just recently were new residents to Jackson so trying to wrap my head around this whole thing because we moved into this beautiful ideal community and now all of a sudden we got this flood of traffic and I know your algorithm tells us not the traffic is going to be assimilated and whatever my concern is what does it look like five years from now 10 years from now because I'm relatively young and I'm hoping to see 5 10 years from now so you're saying there's like 2600 kids now and 60 buses and 400 cars what does it look 5 years 10 years in the future so the analysis that we conduct is a buildout year of when uh it would be open and operating and in that factor what we're looking at is the uh the analysis that's presented in the traffic study with the levels of service that I previously testified to it's not a requirement to to look out 5 10 15 years because at that point there are other uh improvements that are potentially taking place in the area that are outside the purview of this this application so there's no educated guest no Mr long I moved here in 1970 there was one traffic signal on County Line Road one so no one can tell you what's going to happen in 10 years but I hope you're here to enjoy it well this uh anyway my second second question sorry I'm going to be a little rude but was the town of Lakewood when the first schools were built there was the township also told traffic wouldn't be a problem there I I can't answer that [Music] question I I think your I think your report says 1% a year increase subsequently for 10 years that's correct yeah here there oh my apology yes because Ocean County requires a 10 year yeah yeah it requires a 10 year yeah uh please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm to tell the truth to hold truth nothing but the truth yes sir please state your name and spell your last for the record uh Jim Sakia s i l e CC H A I live at six harfield Drive um my background are you represented by councel no I'm not just so you know where my questions are coming from I've lived in Jackson for 51 years I've driven on these roads for 42 years I've driven down Chandler Boulevard numerous times as I've worked down in Mount Laurel so to get to 195 I go that road earlier you talked about being on a curve and you kind of misrepresented because that's pretty much a blind curve coming from Jackson Mills Road on down Chandler I guess at southbound so my question to you is in your study did you ever look at say if a tractor trailer is coming down Jack Mills makes the turn onto Chandler and is doing 40 miles an hour gets into that curve and all of a sudden spots a bus making a turn into onto that road does he have enough time to make that stop it's an absolute great question right it's a Paramount concern to us when we lay this out well you said you didn't have any concerns before I don't and let me let me finish the answer to that question when we look at this we look at sight lines we look at Clear Sight lines for both entering and exiting Vehicles right we and it is a concern of mind and that's why we perform the analysis that we do based upon the location of the driveway there are sufficient sight lines to provide and meet ashto criteria for safe stopping site distance but you've never tested any of those I don't know what you mean by tested right so so the American Association of State Transportation and Highway officials publishes a geometric policy on roadway design they've studied numerous equations and numerous uh stopping uh tests wet pavement dry pavement they come up with these standards that we are required to use as Transportation professionals right so it's been studied at nauseum and published by the fhwa in this publication right um we utilize that as a as a transportation professional to evaluate the location and ensure that we are providing safe and efficient access okay I've traveled it too I know you said 50 years I've only been doing it 42 uh my next question I know there's been a lot of talk about the the median on the Boulevard and we talked about how it was going to be whether it was open or whether you're going to have some kind of pave and I think where kind of led to is you're going to have kind of curved up ra Road you know curbs so that a fire truck could get over it does that also include that the grass median will be adequate enough for a fir Tru the size that we have today to get over at without getting stuck so it we need to design it but yes mountable curve is designed to be traversed by the underc carriage of an emergency vehicle I'm not I'm not talking about the the the curb I'm talking about the dirt that's in the middle of it well so when we design something with mountable curve right it's typically a 12 by8 curb face where it increases the 2 in to 4 in from the pavement surface over that distance as opposed to a vertical curb a 6in face vertical curb that will allow the vehicle to be able to come up and straddle that area and then Traverse back down the other side it is something we will take into investigation as part of this because the mountable curb is an idea that the board suggested tonight we're still in the design phase of this uh this driveway and taking the the suggestion to heart we will work with that uh that design yeah to to that to that point fire the fire Bureau of fire safety is going have toie it anyway again I'm not talking about the curb I'm talking about because they're going to have to Traverse over it okay and if I remember correctly from the previous test Tony around the schools the fire lanane is going around the schools and they're required to have pavers that's correct grass pavers so is that the intention that you will have those grass pavers down a median honestly I will either I will be back or Mr Henry will be back to discuss the full design this will need to be submitted to the board to the board's professionals most likely hopefully it will be submitted to fire safety and police again for their input on it um but we you guys will be just to be clear and yes I'm I'm asking a lot of fire questions I am the son of a volunteer fireman in this Township he was a volunteer fireman he's he's a he's a lifetime member of station 55 he was also member he was a board of fire commissioner for the town for a good 10 years so I've heard a lot from him Mr wall brought up the active shooter I'm going to change it a little bit I'm going to use something that has happened here in Jackson Township and that is and I don't know how many people have been here for very long but M Dr Campbell I'm sure Mr pressy remember and that is the fire that was out at Great Adventure okay where fire trucks were swarmed to that area and because of the number of fire trucks and egress and Ingress and egress out of it was a nightmare okay so it you may may think okay a active shooter isn't gonna happen but a fire absolutely can and again all that has to happen is if one of the fire alarms goes off one of the buildings every fire compan is going to get called out because let's be honest the township is losing its Volunteer Fire members so in order for them to respond they're going to get more and more fire companies there which is going to create more and more traffic into that spot for that situation so to get those students in and out you have to take into account there's going to be a significant amount of traffic flowing in and out from emergency vehicles that's all I have to say thank you all right please raise your right hand which you've already done uh do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth for the record I do all right please state your name and spell your last for the record uh Jim Kleiner KL i n a and I live on r right and which is off of Jackson Mills Road I also have concerns about yes you represented by Council uh no no uh I also have concerns I just want to add my my concerns about that curve um I have very hard uh time understanding how a bus would make that left turn if the bus is coming down uh uh Chandler Road and not have a leftand turn left there on a curve and uh I would think uh that could end up being a very bad situation so I want to add my concern to that also now it's my understanding the uh traffic count was done on the 22nd of June no it was done the 9th of June in 2022 and um you actually counted cars and so on on uh we did Jackson Mills Road then you go to the zoning board and they tell you what's being built on Jackson Mills Road is that how they so what we do is we reach out to the planning board and the zoning board secretaries to find out if there are any developments in the general vicinity that have been approved that should be included in our traffic study and then we beyond that search charge on the dot background growth rate to account for any other development in the area that that wasn't brought to our attention or just general background growth and you had mentioned I think there was a Veterinary that's correct facility okay well I just want to also add that if you go down um Jackson Mills road towards 195 the first intersection you come to was Harmony Road you turn left on Harmony Road about a mile down there that work is in progress right now they're building 250 Condominiums there now when those when those people leave in the morning to go to work I'm sure they're going to head the majority of them probably towards Jack Mills Road either to get on 195 or to get on Route 9 uh I would think that's uh quite a bit of traffic that probably has not been accounted for right now I would say it's not going to change the operation of the site driveway what's going on on Chandler Road based on those development so it won't have any impact on the operation of the site driveway which is really what we're required to study as part of this application all right and the other one I want to mention I think somebody said something about it four on Farmingdale Road and it's not 5 miles down Farmingdale Road from Jackson Mills is uh three or four schools are going in there and that's another I don't know how many school buses I'm sure some of that traffic will also be heading towards Jackson Mills Road and I don't think that's been accounted for either those numbers that was not approved or even contemplated when we really started this application so no it's not included in the analysis of the Jackson Mills Road all right that's all I I have all right please raise your right hand do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the hold truth nothing but the truth I do all right please state your name spell your last of the record Denise dep d p a c all right and your residence 11 Devonshire Way all right and you are you represented by Council no okay okay um on June 6th and 7 we had a wildfire which I know the gentleman previously addressed um they closed Route 195 between exits 21 and 22 according to the Ocean County emergency evacuation rout we would take Jackson Mills Road to Route 195 um as you can see this north of 195 is heavily wooded and it just takes one lit cigarette or one lit match and the entire place is going to go up so my question is I'm concerned about my own safety how am I going to get out to 195 if there's a wildfire the other issue is how are you going to EV evacuate 2600 students teachers faculty in a minute's notice so the analysis of that point load is not something that we typically analyze as part of our traffic impact study what we're required to do is take a look at what the daily operation is going to be um during the the peak hours of the facility so if there is an emergency it can be assumed that there will be Emergency Services there will I am certain there will be protocol in place done by the school for something that nature on how to evacuate in a timely manner but it's not really an analysis that we would do as part of this traffic impact study okay but in an event such as this it could be life-threaten in which is something that the Board needs to take into consideration those kids are going to be trapped that fire can burn quickly in under the right conditions so not only for the residents is it going to be a concern to evacuate quickly but 2600 students and faculty you have to be concerned about that's all thank you all right there you go do you swear or affirm to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do all right please state your name and spell your last record Linda moscowitz M oos k w i TZ for Hardwick Court Jackson all right you represented by Council no um from the beginning of this my main concern has been not our safety but the safety of 26 2,800 people in that area with one road access that road now you've put the Boulevard in it might be very nice there's no way for vehicles to get past each other if if a something breaks down that whole thing is just log jammed plus when I looked at the site plan very carefully you have one road going through around to each building is that a double road is it one way so that's a great question um they are one-way circulation patterns for each one of the buildings so that the buses can appropriately locate their door to discharge the children um so we have one-way access you know take for example the boys Elementry down here oneway circulation in a counterclockwise motion throughout the school and then they exit if we were to take the girls Elementary it's the same thing one way counterclockwise to ensure that the passenger side is up against the school to drop off and pick up the kids thank you okay your six buses in front of now I'm confused if it was the girls school or the boys high school so this is this is the girls here this is the girls Elementary can I bus get passed if a bus breaks down can a g bus get passed or an emergency vehicle on the left yes the simple answer is yes it's hard to see in this area yes there's white striping so what we've allowed in that area is a bypass lane also because what happens is as the bus is discharging there's the potential the bus in front of it is still uh releasing children we've given them the ability to be able to pull out and buy pass them to get back out so yes even if there was something broken down in there there's the ability to bypass the vehicle okay so six buses are there but seven and eight pulls up what happens and they haven't first six buses haven't finished discharging so then they would CE Quee along the southern side of the axis aisle over here okay as I mentioned from the beginning of the area where the sidewalk is all the way around to where that this site um exits the culdesac there's enough room to fit all 17 buses in that area not that I anticipate that happening but we we took a hard look at it and you can if that were to happen they would all Quee on the site there there's no impact even the operation of the other schools anything else I'm looking at this and I'm more upset than ever coming in the access road now you said they make a right turn for the boys high school they go out that that little road this is the elementary school but yes this is what we're talking about I I'm confused sorry and you said they'd make a left wouldn't it be better for them to make a right go around the culdesac and continue straight out why make left turns you've got other buses coming in to get to other sites I I just the safety plan is just not there if I had a child that child would not be going to this complex and in terms of active shooter last spring my grandson's high school was in lockdown it was easy for EMS and everybody else to get to that school because it had wide openen driveways thank God it was a hoax and they did find out who did it but the children were in Terror for an hour plus and I'm going back to your traffic study I have 50 seconds you did the study in June 22 still Co time no and I and I will I will tell you why we all through covid needed to perform analyses and we were given a protocol to follow by the NJ do to utilize existing volumes that we had from pre-co data and develop um adjustment factors to utilize for our volumes in April of 2022 the NJ do lifted their requirement for this covid protocol so I absolutely believe the June 2022 counts that we conducted are valid and based on what current postco analysis is okay you did a study June of 2022 August of 23 what happened to the fall the winter the spring there's sometimes much more traffic people going to school people working um I I disagree with your timing on the study what I would say to you is one of the things we ensure is that we conduct traffic counts while if unless you're in a real Beach town we conduct traffic counts while school's in session because I will absolutely agree with you there's a change in traffic volume when schools are in session versus when they're not August was not in session well the no the traffic study written and the update was done in August the traffic counts and the underlying modeling is based on those June counts when school was in session okay um do we know what bus carrier is going to be used not at this time no all right thank you thank [Applause] you all right yes my name's Rich Martell I live at 20 Chesterfield Drive Jack all right do you swear or affirm to tell the truth to hold truth nothing but the truth I do all right and are you represented by Council no all right that's good question uh spell your last name for the record please Martel m a r t l l okay uh the girl school on the far right that project um what happens when the buses are there the 17 buses and the 10% of the school population comes in by car that day parent drop off where do they go so the parental drop off is in uh anticipated to be via the uh the parking spaces along the front we don't want the co-mingling of buses and uh passenger vehicles along the face of the building so the uh that first Lane you say the one to the right there are all those Lanes with the parking all that all that traffic parking spaces are for the staff mostly correct staff and parental drop off all right so but you said the cars are going to go through that first Lane for the most part so there's a through through flow yes um so now on the if the buses are stacked up in the queue in the driveway and now the second lane is basically for parent drop off which could be as many as 100 200 cars coming in in that period of time um seems like a lot could happen and my real concern is that if that stops there that flow and congestion backs up on your Boulevard so what is the expected speed limit on the boulevard coming off Chandler I would anticipate probably 25 miles an hour 25 miles per hour yes so how many cars per hour does that let you go through roughly you're you're I I could figure it out too but figured you'd have that one on the top of your finger but so my thing is if you expect let's pick a number 100 cars per hour to come through from Chandler down that Boulevard Lane and now there stuff happens you know cars break down buses break down there's rain there could be a lot slower traffic flow going through that whole parking area backs up the Chandler and you said that you expect no uh significant delays on Chandler getting into the driveway either so there's no turnaround no turning lane planned coming from heis and also from Chandler heading south you expect the flow to come right in with no delays and I don't think that's a good design I mean what sensitivity do you have where becomes a problem and it doesn't pass your your B and your F you know your service levels just seems to me a lot of stuff can happen from those schools congesting that traffic flow so you don't get the optimum flow that you expect and uh I don't see any alternative design or sensitivity so the the there are a lot of questions I think in there go ahead let me try and unpack some of them um so when we go back to the analysis each one of these facilities is designed to operate independently and provides the sufficient drop off area for the buses for the parents the parking um and so each one of them will operate independently and efficiently so the backups that you have in parts of it just aren't going to happen right even if people are a little bit later and a little bit um delayed there's the ability for them to stack within each facility on the drop off Loop there's the ability for par parents to come in and drop off along that area the kids will be able to utilize the crosswalks provided at each facility to cross from that area there's also the ability for parents to park in the um in the parking spaces so the backups that you mention it's my opinion based on the volumes that we have won't won't reach won't reach the boulevard let alone reach Chandler Road and the analysis that we have taking all of those numbers together show that the the driveway is going to operate at good levels of service the driveway you said the street would operate but you're also saying the driveway yes excuse me I'm using the private Street as you know yes Chandler and the the new roadway but I don't see look at the the one with the 17 the girls on the right the right Elementary School yep so if there uh could be as many as um 80 90 parent drop offs in that school cuz he said up to 10% which could be even be more as you said um that's 80 cars so if you give me a second I can tell you in that morning peak hour well the peak hour in there has got to be in the morning [Music] so what's the uh enrollment in that school there are 810 uh children in the girls so 80 cars there could be 80 cars coming in between uh 7:30 and 9:00 in addition to 17 buses into one driveway and if that backs up that driveway then people are out in your Boulevard and it just just backs up that's my point it just backs up and I think that you should allow for some sensitivity analysis on Chandler Road the eess because I think that turning lane coming north on Chandler and heading south on Chandler could back up easily when you're throwing in Clement weather um anyway that's my opinion my time's up thank you thank you thank you all right hello raise your right hand do you swear or form to tell the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth for the record yes I do all right please state your name and spell your last for the record an tarnoff t a r n FF I'm in 27 Carlile Drive Four Seasons ba conch no lawyer time how do you spell your last name t is in Tom a r n FF as in Frank the traffic analysis is interesting I think it's been well done my concern is not traffic not traffic flow but emergency just as this gentleman mentioned I taught Freehold Township for 26 years we had a active shooter we had lockdown we had evacuation routs evacuation plans we were never even told where we were going to go if there was an evacuation so that it would be kept quiet I had a go bag in my classroom I am afraid of an emergency I'm afraid of an evacuation any kind of an emergency where you have to get more than one police officer coming in at a time this is a huge number of students basically it's a nice plan to have four schools I think this is a poor piece of property on which to place these schools because of lack of evacuation routes and an inability to get enough emergency vehicles in in a timely fashion if it takes me an extra two minutes to get someplace on Jackson Mills Road so be it but please protect these students and staff as much as you can thank you thank you [Applause] Ma you've already spoken sir question sir you've already spoken you've already spoken sir only one I have a question a statement for the board we we we can't you Bo you could do a general statement at at the end of the application this is just kind of cross-examination questions next meeting sir can't say what I'm going to say thank you thank you thank you the professionals our professionals thank you madam chair I have a question before we close out whenever it's appropriate GNA ask you if you'd like to speak yeah I just very briefly based on the the Traffic Engineers testimony I would like to at least put on the record a request for an updated traffic study um well the reason specific the reason I'm specifically asking and it's supplemental the um I I looked and maybe it's in here but I don't see anywhere where it's disclosed that the data is marked to prior to March of 2020 uh prior to covid number one which is what he what he stated pre-co data hold on let me finish let me finish he did not say pre-co data he did not and then applying a metric or some type of increment or decrement some type of overlay from the state which if it's a Statewide item if it's not Regional and he'll can speak to this in a moment regardless I think this is the data is over two years old with some additional metrics from the state it's has I'm going to argue no bearing on the tremendous growth and development in this municipality it may be Regional may be Statewide I don't know but with data that that marks to preco and I heard what you said you said PR preo that marks to preco which is March 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024 regardless of being a conforming application I understand all those things but let's just make sure we're dealing with the same set of facts I don't see anywhere in here where it identifies the preco dynamic and the and the overlay of the formula and then I'm almost complete because I want you to be able to correct what I'm saying that may be inaccurate or or expand on it so be because of his t testimony and also the concerns of residents which I think is a reasonable thing to interpret I don't see any harm and frankly a very modest escrow um investment to at least give folks the comfort that they're dealing with current data so I just want to put that on the record that I wanted to request uh a supplemental to this that's current dated and better disclosure on the the methodology the the the formula that where you arrive at that and if you could maybe speak to that as well in addition that would be great thank you sure wait one second one so the the reason you didn't find anything in there the the traffic study that was presented every bit of formula calculation that we did is detailed in there what I had said and and I I maybe I wasn't uh maybe I was unclear the state published guidance for utiliz ation for when we were conducting traffic studies between the onset of covid and then they removed the necessity to um adjust volumes in April of 2022 so in June of 2022 when we collected the data it was post necessity to uh adjust for covid factors and that's the the guidance of the NJ doot so the data collected in June of 2022 is representative of a post ID uh traffic patterns we then used every bit of methodology in the study to grow by the background growth rate and to get adjacent developments from the municipality so I have to disagree with you in the fact that the volume that we utilize is not representative of the traffic patterns in the area and was it a Statewide overlay or was it Regional or local based so what they they asked us to do is they asked us to find traffic volumes in the the local that you were at and conduct pre- and post analysis so if I had a account at Jackson Mills Road from 2018 I would count in 2020 and I would look at the two of those volumes of what the growth factor that state publishes should say from 2018 to 2020 uh to 2020 and compare it to the 2020 volumes and if that growth factor was 1.4 or 2.7 we would apply that universally to the traffic data that we collected for the study what I can tell you is we categorically found that we were overexaggerating the volumes in a postco world what has happened is the traffic patterns the commuting patterns the the on the shopping patterns have all shifted and what we find is a much less concentration of traffic during the commuting hours and just to understand what I'm I'm asking for if the board requested it and the applicant agreed to it to totally different things um can you describe what a supplement not I'm not saying it sounds like you're rejecting the notion of that but that's just what I'm getting from the conversation but can you just describe what a supplemental would look like regardless of whether the the applicant refused or the board asked or not what is what would something look like would it how would a current date and to what extent would it incorporate new fresh data from approvals at this board or the zoning board or would that have no bearing whatsoever what is an update look like just so we're working on the same definition and that'll conclude my uh my questions Madam chair what is I mean that's a broad well to find if I ordered from you a supplemental what would what would you what would be your scope of work what I most likely would do was go conduct traffic counts along Chandler Road to see how the traffic has changed along Chandler Road between 2022 and today I would then update the analysis that we have based on that and provide that data to you and why is that unfair to request because I'm getting unfair to you what what's wrong with that request what's unreasonable about I should say well because we we prepare a study at the time of application okay right and then we go through this process but to continually update this on thing I think is an onerous burden on on applicants uh in general so the data that I have the reason we grow out four years right we take it to a a future build year is to accommodate all that potential growth that goes into the area so the data that we have is the is an accurate represent representation of of what's going on out here right and it's it's traffic engineering methodology to do this this is what the it uh proposes and gives us guidance on how to analyze impact of future development and for Mr Peters reasonably request unreasonably request is it typical to have updates from time to time for more elongated applications especially unique ones such as this if the board feels I don't have sufficient information to make an informed decision they certainly can ask for an update all right thank you can I ask a quick question I make a motion hang hang on so let me just this may put you at ease Mr wall a little bit so um the um the interested party uh who Mr gazari represents Mr gazari had also uh mentioned to me that he may be getting a traffic expert with a traffic report as well um I don't want to put you on the spot I know that was just theoretical but we had that conversation so uh that may be one means by which taking a look at it contradictory set of information um if if it comes out that way I'm not predicting anything so uh another less utilized method is is by which the board could if the board doesn't like the options available to it and and quite frankly I mean just so the board is clear every single board member when it comes down to traffic and and the Ingress and ESS you guys are 100% able to utilize your own personal knowledge and experiences as a sitting board member um you know to to compare it against the the information that's being presented to you so you don't have to be constrained simply to the information being presented you're able to compare it against your own personalized experiences right so that that's number one uh but across the board in in a fair and reasonable manner when you take into consideration you know if the interested party has one the applicant has one whatever it may be you take it all in um take a look at it make sure it Compares against what you guys have experienced in your own life if if you have your own personal experiences with it that that's the first thing uh less utilized method is a method by which um a board could technically um vote on obtaining a third-party traffic report um which I heard of it happening a few times seen it happen I think twice um where if it if it is voted on and used um or or um voted on and requested what happens is that uh the board essentially hires a third third party traffic expert to just go right down the middle and take into consideration whatever the board has any questions about and and do their own evaluation so that there's a a third-party entity uh providing the board with with a traffic report so it's again less less frequently utilized I've only seen it happen a couple times um but that is an option um again that is just to make it clear so everybody's you know raise aware of this that is an upfront cost to the applicant where I believe based upon the ordinance uh the escro ordinance it would it's the applicant's responsibility to pay for that but I'm not saying that that what I'm saying to you is that if uh Mr gazari presents um his traffic report and the applicant does an updated traffic report and you're all sitting there and something just doesn't jive or your own personal experiences don't um line up with what you're seeing or hearing and that may not be the case I'm just kind of just talking at this point because it's late and I'm tired so um that is one method by which the board has to kind of look at it in in a in an unbiased fashion and see if maybe it lines up with one or the other or if it's a middle of the road don't we don't we have a traffic person in the town I I think I think we we have a a person well we we have we have a traffic professional by the name of Mr Peters sitting and he's a beautiful individual he's sitting right in front of us couldn't we um request that Mr Peters does a study the the board can request whoever they want Mr Peters is our traffic expert and we requested from his office to do it I'm just saying that there's a method by which if what you are seeing doesn't line up with your own personal experiences is just another mechanism by which the board has an ability to kind of look at it uh and and get independent information um I I mean maybe that's an answer to the questions that you were you were asking Mr Peters is that a is that a possibility if the board wish to have another independent traffic study performed my firm or any other reputable firm could produce that for the board um I would strongly suggest you wait and find out whether or not the objector is going to provide a report to the board I would think that's a good idea so Mr garosi you'll get back to us thank you and I'm just curious as to what this report is supposed to say because we got to remember this is a permitted use so offside traffic is a non-issue in a permitted use case so is is it the driveway I'm just curious as to what we're trying to accomplish here it's the Ingress and ESS safety factors that's what we're looking at okay in in it's and that's really on site and that's an area we're allowed to look at the uh safety factor of Ingress and egress that understood confidence going be safe that's the main that's your main concern yes thank you but one one procedural bit of business I would app just the stale nature of the data that's presented so far I think I think that speaks for itself so procedurally uh we have some business we have to do so I know this sounds silly but I move to close the public portion second second good let's all those in favor I all right thank you ladies and gentlemen I have some some changes to the agenda that I'd like to read could you just announce that this is carried to April 15th without further notice this is carried till April 15th we hope um changes to the schedule block 2301 4201 4301 Lots one 2 2601 28 29 30 2.01 15 56 and 57 Jackson development comp carried from 34 to 114 with notice required Madam chair before you do that Miss Jennings did excuse me everybody we're still in session because so so could you please keep it down thank you Miss Jennings you would ask that the application be carried with no further notice yep there has to be notice thank you thank you I agree block 7403 Lot 2 how realy move from April 15th to um March 4th with no notice required block 18602 lot 20.01 Dorothy's Lane minor subdivision moved from April 1st who has a meeting on April Fool's Day uh to March 4th with notice required thank you Miss Jennings you uh wave time of decision rule till April 15th there we go accept a motion to adjourn good idea thank you thank you and a special thanks to uh Miss Morrison for doing double duty tonight yes thank you very much