e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e Pledge of Allegiance Al to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all good evening ladies and gentle gentlemen pursuant to the uh njsa 10 colon 4 the open public meetings act notice of this duly and regularly scheduled meeting of the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment has been posted uh and published in all appropriate locations ladies can we have roll call please Mr Stafford Smith here Mr Hudak here miss Parnes Mr Hyman here Dr Holstein Miss Bradley here do we have any resolutions this evening we do we have three resolutions this evening we'll start with resolution number 224-279-8737 applicants request for modification of the use variance approval uh eligible to vote are Miss Bradley give did I give you the yes who is it Miss Bradley Mr Safford Smith and Mr correct and who and Miss Bradley Mr Hudak and Mr that's what I said M Bradley Mr Hudak and Mr Stafford Smith thank you second roll call please Mr Stafford Smith yes Mr Hudak yes Miss Bradley yes Excuse me yes resolution number 20242 it's the resolution accepting the withdrawal of application for use variants for Dan rack Excavating LLC property located at 134 White Road Block 21401 lot 52 uh eligible everybody's eligible to vote on this it's a withdrawal move to approve roll call please Mr staffer Smith yes Mr Hudak Miss Parnes Mr Hyman yes Dr Holstein Miss Bradley yes then we have resolution number uh 20242 this is the resolution of zoning board accepting withdrawal of application for site plan for BM OJ Inc property located at 146 and 140 South New Prospect Road 641 one Lot 21 and 22 uh as a withdrawal everybody's eligible to vote motion roll call please Mr Stafford Smith yes M Mr Hudak Miss Parnes yes Mr Hyman yes Dr hofstein yes Miss bading yes that concludes the resolutions for this evening Madam chair thank you Mr Murphy do we have any minutes this even evening no no minutes this evening okay I do have a voucher from the township of Jackson for the recording secretary for this evening in the amount of $175 I need a motion and a second to approve payment move to approve second second roll call please Mr Stafford Smith yes Mr Hudak M Parnes Mr hman yes Dr Holstein yes Miss bradling yes do we have any announcements this evening Mr Murphy um we don't have any announcements now so we need to swear on our professionals please thank you for raising your right hand do you Solly swear affirm that testimony information questions or comments they are about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes it yes if you would each please state your name and your positions with the board Evan Hill Board engineer Ernie Peters board planner Tumalo assistant zoning officer thank you are we having executive session this evening Mr Murphy no we are not any matters for discussion none so and no administrative approvals we are going to move forward to applicant number one Cay Marcus variance 3505 that's block 15201 lot 125 22 Ambassador way good evening if you please raise your right hand do you affirm that the testimony information questions or comments they about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes if you would please state your name spell your last provide your address and your affiliation to this application K Marcus MC US 22 Ambassador Way Jackson the property owner thank you mam chair yes before we get started if I could just say I should move the microphone up the Acoustics in here stink so if you have to yell yell because otherwise we won't hear you got it um so Mr Marcus why don't you tell us what it is you're trying to do I'm applying for a variance for my fence for the side of my property which is considered the front yard due to the fact that I'm on a corner lot okay and would you tell us a little bit about the fence what type what height what are you looking to do I'm looking for a six fo vinyl privacy fence are you in a corner a lot yes so you have two front yards correct so you need a variance for the fence yes is any portion of the fence forward of the dwelling I can't I can't see on it's cons yes because it's a corner lot no I understand that but I mean in terms of long Ambassador way no yeah that's that was the question but and it does encroach the front yard area within butterfly no I understand that but yes say technically have two front yards but I meant forward of the dwelling in terms of the front steps but I can see it now so I can see that it's not Mr Hill are there any sight line issues so as indicated the applicants on a corner lot uh with Ambassador wayam butterfly Road uh the applicants proposing to install a six foot high vinyl fence uh within the front yard area of butterfly Road not within Ambassador way uh the applicants proposing to locate the fence a minimum of 6 feet away from butterfly road because there's there's there's a documented six foot wide shet Tre and utility easement from the property line there is no sidewalk along that portion of butterfly Road there is only sidewalk with along Ambassador way and there's an existing inground pool within this area U that is separately fenced is it your intention to remove the pool fence or keep the pool fence keep the pool fence keep the pool fence okay uh there are no line of sight issues the the nearest adjacent driveways about 80 to 100 feet to the north and there are no other driveways within a shorter distance than that to the and you stated it's obviously for the reason you want the fence is for privacy correct privacy and for safety excuse me I'm sorry okay any questions for the applicant so on the back side I think what M what Dr H is asking you're not taking it to the property line it's going to be off the property line correct yeah just would you have enough room to mow and take care of any grass that may grow behind it yes now I just had one question um it shows that there are two wood sheds right but it looks like the fence is going through the one shed is that shed staying there I got rid of that shed it's already been removed yeah any other questions for this applicant Mr H got um side the butterfly rides butterfly Road be six feet in of the curve gu there is and you agree to maintain that six feet of property mowing it and so yes and just I just want to make clear for the record that the property line is not any physical identifi fire out there it's not curb it's not necessarily sidewalk it's the property line is the property line so in this instance the applicant's proposing to have to place the fence six feet off the property line and that's the way any resolution should be crafted any other questions for the applicant seeing that no other board members have any questions I'm that I've come out of my seat sorry seems like there's no other questions from members of the board I'm gonna open this to the public anyone wishing to come forward and comment on this application seeing nobody come forward I'm going to uh close public session for members it's up to us if someone would like to uh make a mtion or have a discussion chair move to approve this application call please L Mr Stafford Smith Mr Hudak yes Miss Parnes yes Mr Hyman yes Dr Holstein yes Miss Bradley yes congratulations your variance has been granted thank you so much you we're going to move on to applicant number two Ka halberg variant 3508 block 7201 Lot 12 location 5 Maryland Drive good evening will both of you be speaking this evening yes okay um if you would each please raise your right hands to each affirmed that the testimony information questions or comments are you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes yes if you would each please state your name spell your last provide your address and I I'm just going to put on the record are you the homeowners yes okay go ahead K halberg last name h l b r g five Maryland Drive Byron Jared Stern last name spelled s RN five maryn Drive before we get started on this application there's something I wanted to address um I did receive um from a Mr failed um an objection via email uh to this application um I declined to forward that objection to the board um because of the fact that it was received via email um objections have to be made uh during the public session uh anything that's submitted to the board via email is not going to be considered considered um I had provided this opinion to Mr Feld and despite that opinion um he took it upon himself to email um at least two of the board members uh that I'm aware of um and again um uh the board members did receive the objection however they've been directed not to consider that objection and not to consider the opposition um unless that opposition is made during the public hearing um accordingly um I did just want to put that on the record um there is written record of this the objection itself is irrelevant because it's not being considered unless it's brought before the board during public session okay so you're free to begin so we have a pool in the backyard I'm sorry forgive me again I'll just remind you can pull it down and is that better yes thank you so because of the fact we have a pool in the backyard and we have to gate that in for safety we want to have place for our children to play and there's that portion that's outside the fence is not accessible to them when they're coming out of the house in a way that they can be supervised so we wanted to be able to extend that fence so that they can have space to play without being in the pool enclosure all right um so I drove by the property I happen to live in the development I'm not within 200 feet of you but I do live in the same development I went by the property so there is an existing fence correct correct and what type of fence are you um would would you like to put in now a privacy fund 6' High I don't know exactly what material we'll be using but either will be wood or vinyl or possibly something with metal but but six foot and solid preferably yes okay um so my only question is there um when you're looking at your house there is a uh there's a fence already there how far away from the sidewalk do you plan on moving the fence how close to the sidewalk are you planning to move the fence because if you look at the drawing it looks like it's right on it so we would like to be able to put something like swings there that they have room to play and again there isn't that if you look at the drawing there are steps that lead up to the pool area um and there's a shed that takes up a large part of the rest of the yard the only real spot for us to be able to put a swing set is if we were able to put that in along that line which would cross over where the fence is today um so the more room we can get the better off the more children have to play so I know we're bargaining but we as much as we can get would definitely make a big difference because for right now we're very limited and although I understand that traditionally and I'll let um the engineer speak a little more on that traditionally we do not allow a fence right at the property right at the curb like up the property line like that but I'll let Mr Hill speak to that more than and better than I could yep so um the survey doesn't identify Where the Sidewalk and curbing is in relation to the property line however typically we've seen other other properties and this development with a little bit more detail on the survey the property line most likely and and practically would be inside where the sidewalk is or right next to the sidewalk on the inside of the edge of the sidewalk typically we would ask um because these are because these sidewalks are utilized quite a bit by the community we typically do want to see a little bit of a buffer between the sidewalk and the and the um in the fence and historically we would ask for a minimum of 6 feet um because they in in a lot of there are um underground utilities there are shade trees in some cases and and a s shade tree and utility ement is typically 60 feet I'm sorry six feet wide even though it's not depicted on the the land survey so six feet minimum is what this board strives to maintain for consistency purposes so we'd be looking we'd be looking for six feet in from where the grass meets the from the just from the property line wherever that property line is y wherever that property line is minimum of six feet um I'm trying to I guess discern what the distance is right now from where the fence is to the property line do you have any sense of that I can estimate it based on the survey but it's not going to be exact I would estimate to be about 25 to 26 feet thank you so they're you know in reality they're looking at putting at approx let's just say round numbers uh 18 to 19 ft closer to the road any other questions for the applicant yes what are you going but what are you going to do with the shed that is there because if you take that other fence away you're going to have a shed right in the middle of the yard you plan on leaving it taking it down moving it so we would love to move that because right now it's also it's there's so little space there we would want to be able to you know open that up that the kids can have more room to play and possibly if we could and I don't know if this requires another variance but if we can put it in the corner of the property near the pool that we would can keep Pool Supplies closer to the pool as opposed to in the regular part of the enclosure uh for clarification with for clarification would that be in the rear corner uh if possible yes looking at the survey would be the upper left corner okay that would not require a variance however you did ask you did indicate a potten Poss possibly a swing set that would be in this newly fenced area that would require a variance but since you're here um if you want to give the board some sort of idea of what that swing set would consist of about how large it would be I guess as much as my budget allows that's subjective I I was is it a it's it's not a uh I guess try to maybe describe what it would be so I was think of wooden structure um with some swings and potentially like a little you know those like little houses they can climb into um maybe a slide and then possibly putting um the soft like the rubber on the floor the rubber mulch or something like that rubber cycle on the floor to make it safe based on the applicant's description of the proposed swing set those those struct those are temporary structures they don't require foundations um but if the board were inclined to incorporate that into this application that I think that could save save the applicants a trip in the future thank you so I just have a question uh Mr Hill no rear or sidey yard setbacks if they wanted to move the  yeah I was going to say the R9 has an accessory setback of 10 feet from the rear um well I'm assuming that they would abide by the setback requirements uh it doesn't require a variance because of it's not in the front front yard that's kind of what I was speaking of so okay if you were to move your shed or when you move your shed you would have to move it to a location that is consistent with the setback requirements or you'd have to come back here again okay what would the setback requirements be over there uh it's 10 feet from the rear and 10 feet from the side so 10 feet from each property corn property line that might be an issue because that lands Us in the pool almost um so we have from the back I don't think we have from the we could we could we could do a no closer then yeah in the resolution for you which would be you know if you can't do 10 no closer than five I guess okay you could tell that you could tell them that so the way that it would be termed in what I need to what what we're doing is we have to create language for a resolution because everything's memorialized we're what we're saying is and it's we typically do these with these types of variances when there's a a you know an accessory structure where we're not quite sure where it's going to go but we want to make sure that we are in compliance with the ordinances what what the what Mr Hill has offered um you know and I have seen the board approve um is is the term no closer than so instead of having you know a 10 foot required setback from both the rear and side you would only the the ask is that you would have five feet from the rear yard uh property line and five feet from the side property line um to put that fence so you'd have to be five feet from the side and five feet from the rear for the shed okay so you know at at least 5 ft okay I guess we would have to go back and measure and see if we could fit a shed in that space because the there needs to be enough room near the pool to sit safely and if the shed was encroaching on that space we wouldn't be able to sit near the pool and that would be a safety issue um that may lead to a problem would be a the pool equipment is along the house at the front of the pool closer to Maryland Drive um I just don't know where we can put a proper shed anywhere else aside from that back corner because if you look at the way the the fence is structured elsewhere there isn't really a spot where you can have a proper shed that's let's say 6 by 10 or whatever size CH I just want to remind the board just just because we want it some that that's not the proof that the board looks for I think the board's been extremely helpful in trying to reconcile we don't have a plan with Dimensions we're asking for Relief without no understanding the size of the shed um if if the applicant doesn't want to take the board's offer which quite frankly is generous and perhaps they should go back get a plan show us what they can and can't do so that we can approve it because leaving it open is just going to be a enforcement nightmare they're going to realize it doesn't work they're going to stick it up against the fence a neighbor is going to call and say you said it was going to be 5T and it's not and they're going to be back here again so if if they're not willing to accept what the board's graciously offering them perhaps they just should go get a plan that they can look at and make sure it fits because we can't just give them cart blanch because they want it that's a terrible precedent to set no disrespect sorry I appreciate your concern we didn't come prepared for that eventuality but I I appreciate that and and this doesn't have to be decided tonight it doesn't have to be incorporated into this resolution if if you're unsure and then you ultimately decide you want to put it closer than 10t to the property line in the future you would have to go through this process again just for your shed all right okay so is the five feet something that they're able to decide on now and then if it ask if you ask if you ask them to consider five feet then I think they would consider it in their deliberations so I would ask respectfully if the board can consider the five ft if it can work for us then we can work within that framework if it's approved if it can't work we'll have to come back and come with proper [Music] Dimensions it's not the same it wouldn't be the same applica that's a good question it wouldn't be the same application because they're requesting different relief right so if they if they get five feet tonight and they want to come back for two and a half feet or whatever the case might be that's a different application and no it wouldn't be an issue good question so just to be clear to make sure we're all on the same page um the fence would be six foot some type of material whether it be wood vinyl or metal solid uh privacy fence but it's got to be at least six feet off the property line we're in agreement with that correct if that's the standard then that's what we'll do okay and then as far as the shed uh we don't have Dimensions or anything like Mr Peters point pointed out but we're uh your proposal is that we would agree to the 5 ft off the rear and the side property line if you were to move it to the back corner yes any other questions from board members for theant to the chair if you're putting in the shed we shouldn't know what size shed you're planning on putting in and what material it will be made of and what you plan on using the shed for we would look for a we were planning on putting a shed to be able to store the pool materials the pool chemicals um it would have to be locked for safety purposes the children can't get in um and then if possible we would want to have a space that we can have like a separate door that we could put bikes and perhaps a lawn mower that we can't if we can't fit in our garage we still should have an idea of the size of the shed and the material will be wood would it be some kind of metal or just what do what do you plan so it was either going to be well depends on the size that we have meaning with a 5 foot setback on each side we now have to figure out what can actually fit in that space without encroaching on the pool area so we would have to go back and measure it's hard for me to give an idea without knowing exactly what the dimensions would be because based on the size of the shed that would probably dictate what our options are also just be aware that that sheds over certain square footage are going to require footing and building permits and things of that nature so so there isn't that much space I'm just trying to judge by proportion if there's 30 feet from the property line I don't know if this is done I mean I don't know what the say how surveys are done but I don't think there's that much space in that corner that we can put so it's probably not going to be more than six feet deep the question is how long we can make it since there's so much in decision maybe maybe you should come back for the shed I mean something to consider we're asking you to make a decision for the moment would you agree to a restriction that the shed can be no larger than 10 by 10 100 square feet that probably should work at is that a standard size shed yes 8 by 10 10 by 10 yeah keep 100 foot mark okay so then there's noing correct required that's correct mrman that was it I was going to recommend that for Brian thank you I have a quick question yes um Mr held did you say that this swing set doesn't require it doesn't require foundations but we it would require VAR it does require a variance okay so just for clarity of what the ask is it's three things correct I guess no correct could you sorry could you clarify the three things so that we just have a clear understanding of what we're deliberating on okay I apologize so we came in initially asking just about the fence but um thank you for pointing out we're asking about the fence we're asking about moving the shed to the upper left corner of the property and we're asking about a swing set with whatever the dimensions I guess Are there specific dimensions of swing sets allowed to be no okay so it's the fence it's the shed and the swing set and Mr Hill just for the record the swing set doesn't have any setback requirements the setback would well it's in you're you're Prov you're if if you were to Grant the variance for the fence that allows them to utilize their yard if they decide to put the swing set within the front yard area you're you'd be allowing that there's no NE there's no Dimensions from it okay sorry to clarify so if we approve the fence they could put the swing set inside of it without a variance no they would still need a variance if it's within the front yard area if it's forward of the home they would need a variance yes so that's why we suggested that to give them the flexibility of putting it in that area Grant the variance for a swing set within the front yard area but it has to be behind the fence right okay perfect thank any additional questions for the applicant being that there's no more questions from board members I'm going to open this up to the public anyone wishing to come forward and make comments about this application seeing no one come forward board it's up to us if anybody would like to make a motion or have further discussion excuse me motion to approve oh here's what here's what you're moving on uh the request is for a six foot solid fence 6 feet off the property line along butterf butterfly I'm sorry Michigan I'm on the last application still off of Michigan thank you madam chair um and uh a swing set within the front yard area inside the fence line um as well as a um maximum size of 100 S foot shed no closer than 5 feet to the rear and side property line those are the those are the three asks here so any motion to approve would would presumably unless otherwise changed would include all of those reliefs so we have a motion and second on the table second okay I thought you said it already Oh I thought you said it for roll call please Mr Stafford Smith yes Mr Hudak yes M pares yes do Mr Hyman yes Dr Holstein yes Miss bading yes your variances have been granted enjoy your play at along butterfly road if we get a house there maybe we'll go sorry about that thank you okay so we are now going to move on to application number three forgive me I am probably going to butcher this name yokan kitnik mariant 3501 block 10101 lot 72 location 50 mil Pond Road I apologize I'm sure I butchered your name well thank you good evening if you if you would please raise your right hand you somly swear affirm that the testimony information questions or comments you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth or nothing but the truth yes okay very good if you if you would please state your name spell your last provide your address and your affiliation to this application yo kitnik k l t n i c k 50 mil Pond Road I'm the homeowner and Sir why don't you tell us what you're trying to do so I live in the corner of milpond Road I'm roundhill I'm trying to put a fence I guess on the front yard or backyard um on roundhill so I basically want to come off the like the back right of my house and go towards the curb on roundhill and then go back you know up just a corner in the property and what type of fence are we looking to install a 6 foot white vinyl fence Mr Hill any line of sight issues or anything like that no the applicant's proposing to locate the fence 15 ft off the property line and in in this instance the property lines are typically with uh at least 6 to8 feet off of the road uh there are no driveways immediately adjacent to this even though they're a corner lot it's far enough away and outside any of any uh line of sight from from the intersection so there are no there are no safety or or visual issues I'm just going to stop right there it looks like you're proposing a detach garage yes okay right now the way the ordinances are written detach garages require use variances um so this would technically be a use variance application now I know that the that particular ordinance is in the process of being revised um but right now we don't have a quum we don't have enough for a super majority only ask can we six members Mr Murphy can I make a suggestion that sure U maybe the applicant provide some testimony as to what that detached structure would be used for if if if it it may may not fall into the definition of a detached garage okay I mean we should definitely hear testimony and we should we should you know try to try to figure that out right okay sorry about that just need to put that on record should I explain should I say what the can you tell me a little bit about the detach kach yeah sure so um basically we are in the process of putting in a pool and so um the idea of the detach garage is that part of it or all of it will be used not as a pool house but um just as like a chill area you know if you know someone's coming out of the pool and um just wants to hang out um like you know have um you know cheers over there and stuff like that um and on the you know so that may be on half or all of it um if I just do half of it I want to do the other half as a man cave um you know just so Mr Murphy we we've heard applications where because there's a pool there's also a pool house or a cabana area I I tend to agree with you there but my main concern here is the fact that we're treating this sort of as a Recreation Area rather than a yeah Madam chair yes if I might it's the applicant's case he needs to come and tell us what he wants to do y he got about to the fence he didn't talk about the existing shed he didn't talk about this other structure I think should tell us what he wants to do so we can figure out what he needs but but us sort of dragging him out of him let him testify it's his case he needs to tell us what he's doing and why he wants to do it if it's a pool house is there electric is there Plumbing can people sleep in it so as opposed to us Crossing make him tell you what he's proposing and then we'll decide whether or not he's done what he needs to do for us to move forward as the board's attorney has indicated yes so basically um I believe it's a 12 by 24 um you know I was looking it's like a A-Frame shed um it basically comes like a it's pre-fabricated they deliver it I guess on a truck um I will have electric um and no Plumbing [Music] um yeah it's basically only electric and the you know the frame um I'll probably leave the wall like raw like you know like rusti and just style it up with like um maybe vinyl flooring um yeah that's pretty much it it's basically just be like this you know open shed I I'm not sure how tall they are I think I think they may be about 10 feet tall or something like that um but that's yeah it's that's pretty much it it's just like only electric will will this structure have the ability for a car to be parked in it no no it's just you know what I was looking at is just like a regular front door to a house um you know like you could get different options like with Windows or a solid door you know like the door itself like Windows on the door um I believe there may be like two windows per side on the longer side of the shed um but no it's not for any vehicles or anything like that so be it'd be fair to say that this is really accessory to the pool more than anything else correct yes okay can you please explain what the other existing wood shed is used for and what it's going to be used for yeah sure so the existing shed is currently we have um bicycles in there and um we plan on putting the pool equipment you know so like in the winter um you know like all the uh cheers and the stuff like that that's out in the summer we plan on storing in there um you know throughout the winter so um unless I don't have unless I don't have it I don't see where the pool's going to be on the property doesn't right no no no I was just asking as far as distance from the shed I was just going to ask well I was asking where the pool's going to go and then my question was going to be to you is there a requirement as far as distance from the pool so where I my so my first question to you sorry where's the pool going to be on this is drawing so the pool is already installed um so basically it looks you see where like that bump out is I think that's like a bump out from the house and then right on top of it is like um I think that was we had steps we put in a deck a 18 by 28 deck and so when you come the basically the steps uh center of the 28 ft that go down to the yard and the pool's basically directly in front you know probably like 20 ft forward of the deck um the pool's 20 ft wide and 40 ft in depth so it's like running you know when you're looking at it from the deck it's running 40t back um and then I basically the approval was for um you know 3 feet of um like 3T of pad on one side through the chair let's see so can I just um interrupt you there is a drawing with a pool drawn on it the page before okay could you confirm if that's where the pool is yeah sure um Anthony yeah it's up on the screen yeah I mean based on this looks like yeah that's exactly uh yeah this is exactly uh the layout I missed that page I apologize right so Mr Hill now that we have clearly shown me where the pool is is there any issue as far as distance from the pool to the proposed pool I'll use the phrase pool house no okay Madam chair yes sir so we're we're we're still stuck with the these two structures yes sheds in the R3 Zone have setback requirements they're quite frankly big setback requirements the side yard setback is 40 feet and the rear yard setback is 25 ft and the applicant needs to the applicant doesn't want to comply with those they for obvious reasons but I think they need to explain what they're doing so it's clear for the record so there's not a problem if there's post approval where they're going to be how far they're going to be off property lines how far they're going to be from each other so there's no confusion in the record as to what the applicant asked for and what the board approved so let's start with uh how far apart will the existing wood shed in po house Beed from one another so honestly uh when I was doing the application um I went over um I believe with d i we did the you know we discussed like all the details I think it was 10 ft um honestly I don't remember off hand I believe it was 10t we did from one shed to the other um and then I basically had given the uh you know like the existing distance from the existing shed uh to the to the property line and I was planning on somewhat you know um running the new the new structure like you know in line with the existing shed chair the hard part with respectfully sir that testimony the existing information is not on the plan that's before you so I have no idea how Mr Murphy's going to write up a resolution saying the existing condition is X Y is required yep so again I I want to make sure this is done I don't think that what the applicant is asking for is onerous but I think it needs to be specified so that the board the public and the applicant understand what the board's approving me ask you a question yes sir the R3 Zone requires a minimum of three acres uh per lot do you know the size of your lot yeah I believe it's 093 of an acre so you have under one acre right in a zone that requires three acres yes and this is a pre-existing condition what what's what does that mean you bought the you bought the lot in that condition correct yes okay Mr Murphy if I may the applicant's exhibit that was submitted with the application does reference Dimensions from property lines agreed I think we should just stick with those but I'd like for the I'd like for the record do you mind if I just question oh I'm sorry I'm sorry I can I can question him on that if you you know so we can get that on the we can get dimensions on the record all right so what I have here is you have a 093 acre lot which is significantly undersized for the Zone would that be fair to say yes okay and you are proposing to place um a I think detach garage is not a fair description I will say that because detach garage is defined um very specifically in our ordinances and this is this is not intended nor was it ever intended to be a garage where you park cars correct no not at all this is intended as a an accessory structure to your pool is that correct yes correct all right now you're proposing to put that 10 ft from the side property line is that correct yes all right and you you understand that that in the R3 Zone you require 50 ft yes all right so that's a pretty significant variance but considering the size of your lot um to give yourself 50 feet from the side property line was that's that's going to take up a good chunk of your yard would that be fair to say yes all right um and then you have uh also proposed uh 15 feet from the rear line uh where 100 feet is required right correct okay and again 100 feet that's going to I might as well put you in the front yard would that be fair to say yeah I guess so all right that's that's good all right but you you know because again you have a a significantly undersized lot correct yes all right um and so uh we don't have a floor plan for the existing shed but I understand it's 10 by 12 with a height of 7 feet would that be correct yes you're keeping that shed yes now you're proposing to keep that 5 feet from the uh newly proposed accessory pool house is that correct yes you may need to address that with I don't know if that is it going to invoke fire or no no okay good enough for me had to ask a question all right and um that's going to be 27 feet from the side property line where 40 ft is required is that correct correct all right and again same reason because of the size of your lot correct and the same would be true about the the rear the rear lot line where you're proposing 20 feet where 25 is feet is required is that correct correct okay is that about sum up your application and the variances that you're requesting yes precisely accurately reflect your plan yes yeah exactly fair enough very good I think the board knows what what type of relief they're granting from my perspective again what we're we're talking about here again strike what I said about the use variants the so the I should have uh examine this more carefully this is not a detach garage nor was it ever intended to be a detach garage it doesn't exist um the building a prefabricated building um you know might be um something that could be used as a garage um but here it was always intended um as an accessory structure to the pool which is permitted under the ordinances um so there's no use variance required here everything here is requ that that's required is is are C variances bulk variances and bulk variances we know the standard um there's got to you know there's C1 variance which requires a hardship um and again I mean we're talking about a 0.93 acre lot in in a zone that requires a minimum of three acres so that's a pretty significant pre-existing non-conformity um that of itself giv the fact that uh we want to ensure that the um applicant has the best use of his property um it does create a hardship again because these side these these setbacks for the rear and side property lines are based upon three acres and we're not looking at three acres right so so we have a hardship here you need to determine as the board if if the applicants has satisfied the negative criteria um the negative criteria here would be um does it create um any substantial uh detriment to the neighboring Properties or the public good um and also does it um substantially impair uh or impact the uh Zone plan and Zone ordinance um if the answer to those questions is no um then you have the legal right to approve these uh s C1 hardship variances um and again um the hardship here is you know is very clear it's the it's the it's the undersized lot um in in in and again it's a significantly undersized lot for the Zone um so again uh I think the the relief here is [Music] is is you know again in my opinion would be appropriate um but that's up to the board through the chair yes uh when I visited the property I noticed that you have a vinal um playground play set swings yes where is that going to be placed that's permanently where it is um at the time I was told as long as it's not past the like the actual house then it's fine okay thank you I just want to make sure if you need a variance for the side for putting it on side if I wasn't sure if it was meant to be permanently there or was just put there temporarily because of the pool so if it's going to be moved at all then you would require you to put that in here or ask for that kind of relief now got it the chair May yes Dr H could we just go back to the uses for the structure that you're proposing you had said that it was going to be used as a poolhouse and a cabana right so yes okay and you also stated that it will not at any time be used as a guest house you said no yes no it's not it's not going guess it won't be used okay yeah what about as a meeting like that I'm sorry a meeting place Noh meetings no will there be any prayer services in the house okay um this is to Evan what about the water runoff from the structure will he have any requirements no he he no the answer is no it's it uh the answer is no okay and on the existing shed is there any clean up we have to do uh for the setbacks on that no okay thank you so I just have a um couple of things Ernie this is more for you um and the applicant in the letter you had discussed a couple of things that um I wanted to ask about one of them uh letter C in the letter the applicant shall discuss with the board the possibility of acquire adjoining lands has that been met do we know the applicant it is indicated that he purchased the property this way um I'll defer to Mr Murphy but generally speaking this is a lot of record it existed it was in theory conforming when it was developed or platted so when someone took a larger tra to land and created the roads and these Lots they were conforming when that occurred so normally if someone came in and we had a 1 acre requirement and they owned 40,000 square fet we'd asked them to do BU sell letters with the folks next door to see if they could buy adjacent properties to bring theirs up to standard but quite frankly this entire area is 40,000 squ foot Lots where three acres is required so while you can certainly ask that question I believe it may may be moot because the existing Lots next door are also undersized as to lot area right yes legally you can so we could make you do Buy sell letters but again from a you can't so so you can't make any of the surrounding lots more non-conforming than they already are right so if if the properties next year are also 40,000 square feet legally those Property Owners can't sell you uh any additional property and most likely they're not going to buy your property right so um here because you can't make property more non-conforming than it already is um it would pretty much be a waste of of time money and effort to to send by sell letters here it's just a nonissue also in the letter um it says uh the applicant should provide testimony regarding the existing shed and whether the necessary zoning permit was obtained I'm just trying to make sure we go through the different points in the letter to make sure that that was Tak here I always want to make sure doesn't appear it meets the setback requirements we often ask you put it in without a permit put it in with a permit if you buy it this one and we often like to just like we did the last application we like to clean things up so that our neighbors don't sure our neighbors would like to come and see us and spend some time here on a Wednesday night as an efficiency if they can get everything they need here one shopping stop then we've done in the service one of my other questions was the play structure but Mr already captured that question so the excuse me the existing shed was it there when you purchased the home yes in that location where it is now yes okay and then uh my last question I'll leave you alone um any tree removal should be reviewed and approved by the town ship Forest are any trees being removed to put this in no any other questions for the applicant just um the size of this U structure that you want to put in that's going to require building permit um and approvals from the building department and sub the submission of plans and probably footings and the whole the whole nine yards correct uh yes so the first step would be once he receives a zoning permit once if he were to be approved tonight he would then reapply for the zoning permit the zoning permit can be issued and then he would have to submit for building permit uh which would be you know how the shed is going to be constructed what type of material and then also uh because it's over 200 square feet it would require a foundation system and and listen through no fault of yours I'm seeing a pattern here tonight where we're having residents coming in that and we are taking holding their hand through this whole process and drawing out the answers and um we're we're not getting plans that are accurate accurately depicting what they want to do and it's not our job to do that um these should all be pre-qualified and pre looked at before they come to these meetings and present to us and and we're wasting a lot of our time and resources when frankly we don't need to so my little piece any additional questions for the applicant seeing no additional questions from the members of the board if there's anyone in the audience who like to come forward and make a comment please do so sir if you could just step over near the table so they can come forward good evening if you would please raise raise your right hand thank you very much do you solemnly swear affirm the testimony information questions or comments you're about to present before the board uh will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address Anna patrello p r i l l o address is two roundhill Road Jackson thank you board members I appreciate you um being here tonight for us and hearing our remarks I am here as a president of the whis Spring Hills HOA as well as a neighbor at two roundhill Road my house faces the applicant's backyard and sidey yards where the fence is going to be as well as all his structures the fence will will definitely create a sight issue that corner of Round Hill in milpond is extremely dangerous we have called the police repeatedly because of the speeding within that the street the neighborhood milpond especially because of its straightaway nature so saying that it won't be a sight issue is incorrect also so when I pull out of my driveway I'm going to have an a problem looking around the corner to see if there's any oncoming traffic we have many neighbors many young children who play in the street and if there's a fence there and people are trying to turn which they don't stop at they will turn and they will hit somebody so as a board member and a a fellow neighbor it is a safety issue forgive me for being rude I'm sorry I know you said where your house is on the map can you just show me where my house is facing that okay so I'm along roundhill exactly opposite of his side and backyard my driveway is there all right thank you sorry about that oh no worries um the applicant also failed to mention that he also has not only a swing set currently which is oversized he also has a huge trampoline in his backyard as well as an existing deck that should all be taken into consideration with every all the buildings that he wants to build the building that he wants to build or buy or purchase as a prefab building he should know the dimensions if you're going to purchase it and you're going to apply for a variance you should know the dimensions of it he's saying that it's 20 feet long by 20 feet and 12 ft 10 or 12T High that's a structure is it open air or is it for enclosed walls if it's for enclosed walls is it really a pool house that's a question that the board has to consider as well as um all those buildings he it just simply won't fit in his backyard his back is his backyard and his lot is undersized it's .93 the minimum requirements is three acres he's creating the hardship by putting so many things within his backyard he's creating it it's not there he not does not have Wetlands he's not on a steep slope so I'd like to put a tennis court in my backyard it simply won't fit so for those reasons I think his application should be denying its entirety thank you thank you anyone go ahead sir good evening my name is Johnny enone I reside at five roundhill Road in Jackson if you would please raise your right hand you Solly swear affirm the testimony information questions or comments you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes sir thank you very much you need me to repeat my name for the record or that if you could just spell your last name please yeah a n z a l o n e thank you um I just want to um start off from where Mr Hudak U left off um and my neighbor also alluded to uh I I think as neighbors we want really to see what this structure is going to look like I don't think that is an unreasonable uh request um I've been sitting in the audience and I still don't know um you know from the applicants testimony exactly what this structure is going to look like its height um you know in terms of its exterior its Aesthetics um and I'm still confused and unclear about its use to be candid because he he stood up here and initially said it was going to be used um for uh a a man cave a place where people could um could congregate in inside after they get out of the pool then it turned into an accessory structure I still don't know I don't think any of the neighbors know and I I don't think this board knows frankly really what the intended use is of Destruction but first and foremost I'd like to see what it looks like um and I I don't think the I think the applicant should come forward and uh at least present to us exactly what he intends to put there and what it's going to look like um going back to what um one of my neighbors pointed out this in my opinion um is a self-created hardship in the sense that the applicant had a clean slate in terms of his backyard before you even put the pool in now the pool permit I think was applied for uh if not late last year or early this year and there was no mention at that time of putting in a 288 ft structure there's no mention of trampolines no mention of play uh playground or playet and after the pool gets put in um I think it's being put in now now the applicant comes and and maybe he didn't think of it before I don't know what the rationale is but now all of a sudden there's an issue there's an issue because the structure doesn't conform given the fact of where this pool is and it's and the size of the pool um my point here is that this I think could have been done differently or should have been done differently from a planning standpoint um if he had submitted an application early on at the time he uh applied for a permit for the pool and had sat down with the zoning officer and said hey I plan to put in a pool and I also want to do a b and c then I'm sure the zoning officer was said hold on you're have some problems here but now it's after the fact um and to me that's a self-created hardship um and and those kinds of applications should be denied um you know aside from you know the the issue with the with the undersized lot um I just think it's poor planet and and my concern is that if we don't abide by the zoning regulations and we make everything an exception the exception is going to swallow the rule now what's going to happen is everyone else in the neighborhood it's a lovely neighborhood everyone else is going to say well I can do the same thing okay and and then it starts to affect the character of the neighborhood U which we all enjoy and and one of the reasons we live there it affects the Aesthetics of the neighborhood um and I think that's a problem I think that's a problem um normally um it's my understanding that the applicant when he comes in has to demonstrate both the positive and negative criteria um for the granting of the variant and normally what I expect is someone to come in whether it be a planner whether you know someone who uh surveys the neighborhood reviews The Master Plan reviews the purpose of the municipal land use law reviews the application and then testifies as to why the applicant has met those positive NE negative criterias um and also demonstrates what the structure is going to look like I I haven't heard that today I mean I've heard some members of the board kind of try to assist the applicant but I haven't heard that from the applicant and I think that's what's missing here um with respect to the fence and I I see that the board has granted the previous two applicants um you know their variance for their six foot fence I would just caution the board in terms of doing that um you know a six fo vinyl fence is not aesthetically pleasing to the eye um you know most of F I would say I think it's a fair statement most of our neighbors who have pools can accomplish the same goal of privacy and safety with a 4 foot fence as is mandated by the regulations uh they put up a you know a 4- foot fence you could put Shrubbery around it you could do a number of different different things but you can accomplish the same thing without putting up a vinyl White Fence directly in front of someone else's home that doesn't is is in contrast with the character of the neighborhood is aesthetically unpleasing to the eye um and my concern is that you can accomplish the same thing uh in a number of ways in this instance if the applicant is concerned about privacy and safety he can put a fence around the perimeter of his own pool um or he can abide by the the the zoning RS and and put and ab and stick with a 4 foot fence I don't see why you can't accomplish the same thing and with a 4ot fence and allow a six foot fence next thing you're going to see is everyone else in the neighborhood is going to put up six foot vinyl fences and it's going to be a mess and it CH really impacts the neighborhood it impacts the Aesthetics the character and I would just caution uh the board respect to that but my point to the board is I don't think the applicant has shown us through his testimony this evening um the nature of his hardship and I I I would I would contend to you that the hardship is self-created um and I would like to see more information regarding the structure because it's absolutely unclear to me uh a what the real use of the structure is and more importantly what it's going to look like and for those reasons I I ask you to deny the application thank you for coming forward so I I I do want to address that just momentarily um this is not this is not a self-created hardship it's not um njsa 40 colon 55d -7c one is very clear this is a 93 acre lot in a three acres Z that in and of itself creates a hardship under the statutory standards um because again we're we're presuming that you know the setbacks apply to three acres rather than 0.93 this property was again as as Mr Peter stated was was conforming at one time through no fault of the applicant The Zone changed the zoning changed that in of itself creates a hardship this is not a self-created hardship that's referenced in case law I just want to make that very clear for the board thank you anyone else wishing to come forward and make comment thank you for raising your right hand do you Solly swear affirm that the testimony information question or comments say you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address my name is Vincent canciller my last name spelled c a n c l l i e r e and I live at 51 milpond Road in Jackson New Jersey and Sir if you don't mind if you could just show where your house is in my house is on milpond road directly in front of his house so my front of my house directly looks at his house I'm going to read a [Music] statement my name is Vincent canceler and I live at 51 milpond Road Jackson New Jersey across the street from Mr kitnick residence which is 50 mil Pond Road Jackson New Jersey I have lived in this neighborhood for over 19 years and we have been proud owners of our home and the Aesthetics of the beautiful neighborhood we live in during all of these years also I give back to the community in which I live in by being a volunteer firefighter for our beloved Jackson Township for those of you who are unaware of the difference between a volunteer firefighter and a career firefighter is basically that a career firefighter is compensated for his duty the reason I bring this up is because we are all trained the same way through the state and I have certificates for firefighter one firefighter 2 to and certificates for the highest level of incident command that the state has to offer forgive me for interrupting but I you can only comment on what you've heard tonight about the application we thank you for your service but we need to address the I don't mean to be rude forgive me not a problem this is leading up to that so if you feel the need to let me know again I appreciate it but I'm leading up to something the structure that Mr kitnick is asking to be built is a fire one second is a fire hasz it because it is too close in proximity to other structures including his own home and surrounding homes some of the key terminology that we use when we arrive on a structure fire all size up which is where we want to get a 360 degree surrounding view of the property in duress the six- foot fence would obstruct that view I suggest a 4-ft fence also it would be one second it would immensely jeopardize the surrounding structure by being so close in proximity just to be clear our development does not have fire hydrants that are connected to public water which means that if this structure ever caught fire we would have to draft water from the lake without this proposed structure the houses are far enough from each other by design that if the home catches fire there is minimal risk of the home next to it Catching Fire adding this huge structure would put all surrounding structures at a huge risk when we first moved here we love this Serene neighborhood and the Beautiful Homes we have a homeowners association and they have a set of rules for all homeowners to abide by these rules are what keeps our neighborhood structured in a way that is beneficial to all who live here more important ly Jackson Township has zoning rules and regulations which permit and deny home homeowners from building what is unjust and not in alignment with the surrounding homes Mr kitnik who has lived in its development for New Years requesting Aid to attached huge 12 y by 24 by 12 High structure to be used as a quote unquote man cave pool house which would be in direct sight from every window in the front of my house this includes all four bedrooms which belong to our four Sons our four sons who are now young men have thrived in this neighborhood three in college and our youngest who is a marine they were able to have an unobstructed view of the H's nature and sereness of the neighborhood we are now faced with this current situation that will create a burden and an obstructed image of the peaceful and undisturbed view from their windows this not only affects their well-being but it also inflicts on their mental health there have been other neighborhoods that have had such structures built and are being used as Community bath houses such a structure is suspecting nature and if Mr kitnik wants to build a man cave I have a great suggestion build it in your basement it would be epic basement manave sounds like a perfect match all are welcome in Whispering Hills development so instead of build building a fence that violates the zoning rules build something that is in alignment with the zonning rules it is my understanding that in order for the structure to be built it requires a 3 Acre minimum and this property is 093 which is not even close at this time we are presented with a situation that hinders our well-being and our overall View and the beauty and value of our homes and for this reason I ask that this be denied this application thank you for your time thank you for coming forward anyone else wishing to come forward and make make comments about the application on what you heard this evening Mr burn mom if you would please raise your right hand do you solemly swear affirm that the testimony information questions or comments here better to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last provide your address I am burn B 26 roundhill Road thank you so I live in the same development as the applicant as well as the others that went up um and I don't necessarily disagree with everything everybody said but the first thing is is that all the houses in the development are an undersized lot um prior to the there was a change in the zoning prior to that he wouldn't have had an issue when it came to the um the setbacks um and most of the houses or a lot of the houses in the neighborhood have pools and a lot of them have and many have um structures on the property as well now according to the current currently the way the law stands the way it's written it's an undersized lot and you shouldn't be able to build anything but the majority of the or many of the houses do have it um so this is definitely a hardship that was created because of the change in the zoning um nothing to do with the applicant um and there are many houses that either have it prior to the to the um to the change or there was an exception made and the variant granted so that they could build those structures um that's the first thing the second thing is when it comes to the fence it's a corner lot and I'm looking at where I looked at where he does plant to build a fence it's pretty far back from the from the corner um he's she's doing it in the back of his house um although it's considered a front yard due to the fact that it's Corner we know that this uh board has approved it in the past for many if not all I I don't know of any that that didn't at least if they weren't trying to pull it in front of the house um and this is just a just a weird just the way the law is written I think is just weird that we can consider that the front yard um other than that I have nothing else to add thank you for coming forward anyone else wishing to come forward go ahead sir I understand the the issue with the undersized lot but that exception can't swallow the rule there's a limit okay you can't put 30 gallons in a 10 gallon container um yes there there this lot is under an acre but my point is there is a limit um to what can be put on this property where it makes sense from a land you know from a municipal land use perspective in terms of how this functions in relation to the rest of the neighborhood and what you're going to permit okay down the road for the rest of the neighborhood um so I I'd ask that you take that into consideration a and for the board um we do have those requirements in town it's called impervious cover and building coverage requirements neither of which does this applicant exceeds they're still well below what the ordinance requires from a building coverage and from an impervious coverage standpoint and from a lot coverage perspective so those rules are in place on the applicant not violating them so just a couple legal opinions here um number one iach go ahead I just want to go back to the hardship um again when he pulled the permit for the pool and design the pool he could have designed it differently and also as far as the structure is concerned you could put a gazebo which is basically a roof so people could relax there and um you know get out of the sun why does it have to be enclosed with Windows and electric um a gazebo would you be just fine that way you can enjoy your pool and enjoy your yard and not use it for anything other than just relaxing thank you thank you so a couple things number one again uh C C1 C1 hardship variance criteria is fairly clear here um I I I put that on the record already at nauseum the board is free to consider that um as they so choose uh the board should also take into consideration the fact that this is a corner lot right and so um had had this property been located in the middle of the block surrounded by two lots and and uh um land locked on all sides he would need a variance for the fence as he's proposing it um it would be permitted right and so uh because it's a corner lot um he does require a variance for offence that he would be otherwise permitted to build um again that qualifies as a hardship under the C1 variance criteria uh the Board needs to determine again um you know again I I I stand by my prior statements um again my advice to the board is that the hardship criteria as defined in the law has been satisfied that would be the positive criteria the negative criteria is something the Board needs to make a determination on based upon everything that's been heard um this evening uh from the public um and consideration of this application but again I I you know uh there are certain bulk requirements uh what I what I think the board should take specific note of is something that Mr Hill uh pointed out um the fact of the matter here is that we have a93 acre lot um we have impervious coverage um um standards uh in the zone um and he's not close to those U impervious or building coverage uh limitations um so you know by very definition what he's proposing would not you know presumably would not be too intense for the lot based upon the fact that he he still fits within um the only permissible uh considerations uh for for building size and lot coverage which are building and and properties coverage uh standards so taking all these things into consideration um you know the Board needs to weigh uh the Public's um opposition uh versus what's being proposed here and make a determination as to whether the C2 C2 C1 variants OFA are are permitted under the law anyone else from the public wishing to come forward and make any comments at this time seeing no one else come forward I'm going to close public session board it's up to us uh for discussion and a potential motion um if you don't mind I'd like to go first Mr Peters you said something earlier that has stuck with me the rest of the time the last app I understand that in the last application they weren't clear with all their answers however there's a major difference when they came in they came in for a fence okay um they didn't come in they didn't realize when they came in this evening they were going to be discussing a shed or the play structure so I was much more accommodating and understanding that they didn't have specific details then Mr Hudak you piggybacked on his comment and I thought well then maybe I'm not being you know I'm like am I over thinking this you know my accounting brain I was thinking am I over analyzing the situation um I'm struggling with the fact that um the original request was a uh proposed sixin fence I'll touch on the fence in a moment uh and then the uh 12 2412 man cave pool house if I'm investing that type of money to that type of structure I would think I would have to know a little bit more than what we were presenting so I am struggling and then to hear some of the neighbors make those very same comments I just feel like we needed more information there now as far as the fence I know this won't be a popular opinion I know the neighborhood well um for a long time there weren't many fences obviously most of them were I have to agree with you much smaller and they were able to do it differently as a corner lot I understand why you would put a fence uh Mr Hill did address the fact that it's far enough off the property line it won't create l line of sight issues as far as traffic um I I do forgive me miss Petrillo you did comment about the traffic and I do know it's a busy traveled Road um however Mr Hill made it abundantly clear I've been by the property I've been in that neighborhood a multitude of times um it's not a line of sight issue so the fence I don't have as much problem with the structure is what I'm having a hard time with i i as a board I think we need additional information like I said I I'm I'm trying to show the difference between why I had no problem with the last application but I'm struggling with this one in their defense they did not know when they came in that they were going to be discussing their shed or their play structure this was specifically in the application and I think we need to consider that um for that reason I'll I would vote to approve the fence but I am I would not include the mo in my motion I would not uh include the structure at this time I think there needs to be some additional information I think we need exact dimensions what type of material all those type of things I think it needs to be C this isn't a 10x10 100 foot shed this is much bigger structure much more involved so I would make a motion that we approve the fence it is a corner lot that in itself is a hardship um it is far enough across uh off the property line and there's no line of sight issues but um I would not include in my motion to approve the structure at this time just continue the discussion if we may I agree with what you're saying particularly about the fence however the the building the size of the building certainly doesn't conform to the E the Aesthetics of the of the neighborhood I would like to see uh the applicant come back with a structure that is much smaller that is uh build to conform to something like the house looks and that would certainly help keep the neighborhood as as such it just seems like Overkill to have a building that size on on this property so I would agree with you but I think uh instead of having a vote and ending the application maybe it should be carried and let them come back with just a different plan for the uh structure in the back of the backyard let do that one second do we table it or separ well let's finish with the comments discuss right hold on right was Mr Hudak I agree with you about splitting this we don't have enough information about these structures we're looking at plans and and I think what we're doing is we're setting up the enforcement people to interpret these ordinances that uh Mr Murphy has to write up without proper documentation we're looking at two different plans that we need to combine ourselves one with the pool on it and one with the structures now assuming this was zoned for one 18 what would the setbacks be back inside could I yeah could I actually I know I would want on the Z professionals but I checked R30 and R1 and I had I don't have an issue with the size of the structure I don't think it um is really our place to have an issue with it it's not violating anything but the setbacks in almost any Zone that I checked seems like they're at least 20 feet from the sidey yard setback and 40 feet from the rear yard setback correct me if I'm wrong okay depends on depends on the structure because I think that depends on the Zone okay so you ranges typically ranges anywhere from you know especially the sidey yard you know typical typical side yard is what 10 to 10 to 20 feet roughly so 15 yeah 15 15 from the side yard and from the rear as well or is it more is this consider shed or is this considered something else he described it as a detached garage well it's not I mean that as I placed on the record detach and we have to be very careful detach garage is very specifically defined and if the if the board would like I can read the definition of detach garage into the record but it's not a detach garage so if if if I may on the denial of application it was typed up and listed as a detached garage but nowhere in the other documents does it indicate that the applicant filled out that it's a detached garage in fact on his sketch it says new proposed shed I think it was just a slip of a tongue when something was being typed up the applicant didn't certainly didn't do it so I don't want that confus and that's why I asked in the beginning for him to clarify that so we didn't have to go down the whole use variants and and and definition of what a detached garage is so I think that was a mistake I don't think that was purposely done by by staff okay but we still are getting sloppy applications and and that is what is really bothering me with enforcement when you have this documentation that's that's not correct um I I would propose that this gentleman um you know we can improve the fence with these auxiliary structures he's got to come back with adequate plans and also I would also you should probably adhere to one acre setbacks you know in this one instance he has 10 feet where one acre you said is 15 feet so that's my take on Mr so I just want to reiterate some of these comments that I was just paying attention to the whole time you know writing different things down um chair mentioned some of them others as well we heard from our engineer that there's no issue with the Seline I know that residents brought up the sight line as an issue um it's very far from the street should be no issues going around the corner seeing anything as far as the sight line goes as far as the hardship um we heard from our professionals again that the hardship is in the land and like all of you in this neighborhood have the same hardship if you come before you know before this board you would also have similar hardships um but it's not that the applicant is making this hardship it's the fact that the Zoning for it was changed um I you know just want to make one more comment about the applications that are coming before us uh the applications all tonight that came before us were all individual homeowners they were not um developers that are normally coming in front of us giving us these big developments or they want to build buildings and different things that are requiring different types of variances these are regular homeowners which don't necessarily either have the funds or have the connection or whatever it is to hire these professionals I don't think it should be um required of them to bring these professionals should they bring nicer better plans definitely I think this plan does have the size of this accessory structure that you know it says clearly on the plans it's 12 ft x 24 um by 12 what it is exactly I don't know I don't think that it's so relevant for this board to delve into it the applicant is clearly stating that it is being an accessory for the pool it's being used to enhance his backyard it's not being used for other types uses um not for a garage and I don't see why this is different than any other shed um I'm going to resp respectfully disagree with you I'll agree with you that they don't need professionals absolutely not this is a homeowner submitting an application however the application should be complete we've asked what type of material we've asked size even though this plan says size uh the applicant did not state he he stated that he wasn't exactly sure the size that's the first problem um we should know we just like I asked each applicant what was the offense going to be made out of or whatever they're going to put up Mr do H excuse me Dr hin asked the second application you can correct me if I'm wrong on the record what was the material that shed we let we asked questions we came to an agreement no more than 100 square feet because they were not prepared we allowed that to go through because they didn't come here for a shed this gentleman came there's a very lengthy description on here of what was being requested he should be able to give us more material give us more information about what the material is is and all those other things and again Dr hofstein made a great point if without knowing that how can we know if it fits the character of the neighborhood so although I agree with you they don't need a professional I do respectfully disagree with you the applicant should know what the applicant wants to put out so uh no testimony has been closed for for the moment but I'm gonna make a suggestion uh once the board is finished deliberating before we vote Mr stord so I just I just want to you know just to respond um respectfully I'm just trying to understand from legal standpoint um this structure does it matter what material it's being made out of and how it's being shaped whether it has Windows or it doesn't have Windows the point is clearly the applicant is stating what he wants to use it for um I just trying to understand what the importance is for whether it's going to be wood or it'll be metal um I mean obviously the Aesthetics is important to everybody I think the person that it's most important to is that a homeowner he doesn't want to put something that looks like a sore thumb in his backyard um I mean we do want to know and we like to know but my question is from a legal standpoint is the applicant required to give us this information or is it he's just applying for a land use permit um to allow him to put a structure of 12 by 24 by 12 I'll let Mr Murphy give you the legal answer but I will say that in my three years on this board almost every application that's ever come before whether it was off fence youve heard that yourself tonight each application had to tell us what type of material was it wood was it metal was it white plastic vinyl what was it so from a from a board member perspective they've always had to provide that information and I think Mr Hudak and his experience and the others on the board would have to agree legally I'll let Mr Murphy answer that part of the question so um I can answer that by addressing the variance criteria um again this is a C1 V well it's a c variance you can choose to call it a C1 or a C2 here I think it's very clearly a c it would be a C1 because of the hardship right again not a self-created hardship it's a statutory hardship okay um the the second portion of that though uh involves the evaluation of the negative criteria okay and I put on the record what the negative criteria is Right does it C does it cause a substantial detriment to the neighborhood surrounding properties right public good whatever you want to call it um and does it substantially impact or impair The Zone plan or Zone ordinance okay um so so again the keyword here is a it's substantial right but you hear a lot about the the term and this is a very very long-winded way of saying yeah I mean it is a it is a permissible consideration um because again you know we we hear and talk a lot about the character of the neighborhood um and things of that nature um Aesthetics are part of the consideration as to the detrimental effects um that it might cause to the neighborhood um so the is it a permissible consideration yes it is is it absolutely necessary under the law absolutely not um you know but but again that's for the board board to for the board to determine not not for me to tell you but yes it's a permissible consideration that's all term it no I I I'm torn I think the neighbors have presented some intent versus impact concerns I really think that defense is not an issue for me but I think that the gentleman living there should possibly come back with more definitive description of what it is he wants to put up and share that with us yeah so I think um everything Mr Heyman said I appreciated how he laid everything out I agree with pretty much everything um I think we're all pretty much in agreement about def fence um we heard our professionals testify it's a corner lot that's the hardship on that one if it weren't a corner lot he wouldn't be here um I think that the description of the structure um it's on the plan it's clear what he wants to do I don't have an issue with the size of it um we don't have an impervious coverage or building lot coverage issue and I think he actually described pretty clearly to me what what he's looking to do with it and even had some M some uh description of it um it almost sounded to me like he had a picture of what he was looking to put there so I don't share the sentiment of we don't know what this is it was pretty clearly described to me um I have my only issue with the structure is how close it is to the property line I I kind of wish it would uh it would align with at least like an R1 standard to borrow those uh those standards and um I don't love how close it is to the other structure I'm not sure what considerations there are I know in the past when we had a two structures close to each other there was a fire concern but it seemed like that was addressed so I can I I can answer that to the best of my ability but I think that's more in Evans range um the fact is is when there is a uh from the principal structure you're required to have these accessory structures set back 10 ft from the principal structure um I don't know again I think Evan indicated there's no rule when it comes to the um access correct yeah okay um it it just it seems very close 5T is like it's I don't I don't know like to me just how close it is to the other structure and to the sidey um I I do have a little bit of an issue with that I'm not particularly concerned with anything other than that and I I don't um it seemed like other board members had expressed uh desire to maybe separate the application and have him come back I don't know if that's something we're in deliberations at this point so thank you for asking me that question um because I was going to address it anyway but I do appreciate that it came from from you so um the long and short answer here is I per personally uh in my my legal and professional opinion I'm not comfortable separating these items this was made as an entire application right um and so to peace meal say okay we'll give you the fence but you got to come back on the other ones I I don't think that makes any bit of sense um there is a motion on the floor uh it has not been withdrawn or addressed uh it also has not been seconded um and I believe the motion currently is to approve the fence but deny the other requests is that correct SE can the chairman make a motion absolutely no under that's a common misconception under Robert's I'm going to finish that's a common misconception under Robert's Rules of Order uh in fact the chair is is as much a member as anybody else and the chair is free to make a motion so but that is a yes that's a common misconception under Robert's Rules so as the motion was put forward uh was to approve the fence and deny the structure is is that a a motion that could be made that was the motion that is made that was the motion that's currently pending but you're not comfortable you're not comfortable well that's not necessarily true because that let me clarify the motion made by the chair does not split anything it simply grants the fence and denies the remaining requests but there was also s suggestion throughout the Liberation that I heard which did in fact make me uncomfortable which was to Grant defense and have him come back on the other reliefs that I'm not okay with um respectfully um uh however um you know and again there is a motion on the floor so I'm not going to I'm not going to address the applicant at this point um however uh I know there was also some discussion about providing additional time to the applicant so so so basically basically we're going to vote on the motion as it is since it well it hasn't been okay well since it is I think that it make it's a substantial detriment that doesn't con and it doesn't conform to the character of the neighborhood so I will second the motion as stated we got a motion a second yes that's a roll call well you had the motion I was second and I guess the existing shed the location of the existing shed he's requesting one because of the location he wanted to put it hold on I'm I'm trying to figure it out uh uh the existing set was 5T from the proposed um structure uh 27 feet from the side property line where 40 is required and 20 from the rear lot line where 25 is required so there there are more than one relief here we're only addressing two of them and there's more than two so um I guess the question for Miss Bradley is does she to address all yeah I mean this this motion has been made and seconded I don't think it's all encompassing though sotion prop structure my motion to deny but just to be clear third it says no for plan given existing shed but so what you're saying is although it's existing it it too encroaches in the set that exist correct so would you like to I'm to am my motion my motion motion on the is to approve it's hard enough back off the road and there are no sideline issues to den structure um and to uh the in my opinion this is a hardship that he did not create the existing shed was already there and brought the property so I would approve allowing that [Music] shed so you you're you're going to you're going to permit him to have the existing shed 27 ft from the side property line where 40 is required and 20 from the rear lot line where 25 is required so the sold denial here is just as to the the um the requested uh pool housee man cave structure corre okay that's the motion thank you for clarifying and amending is it still seconded by you Mr hofstein I'll second that thank you Mr St Smith yes Mr Hudak yes Miss Parnes yes Mr Hyman Dr hofstein yes Miss Bradley good okay e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e okay we're going to call the meeting back to order and move on to application number four Edward roie variant 3506 block 4402 lot 82353 Cedar Swamp Road good evening good evening you would please raise your right hand you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments here about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes if you would please state your name spell your last provide your address and your affiliation to this application Edward roie R oovi 353 Ceda Swamp Road Jackson New Jersey homeowner and Mr roie why don't you tell us what you're looking to do I'm proposing I took my pool out I'm looking to put in an inground pool with a the deck in front with a shed behind um also while I'm here when I'm done with that project I would like to extend my kitchen and my back bedroom and I'd like to put a little awning over my front steps so I could uh sit out there maybe so I figured I would try to do it all at once so like Mr Peters told the last applicant why don't you tell us a little bit about the pool you want to put in and then go on to tell us about the kitchen the bedroom and the awning how's that okay the pool that I'm looking to put in is inground pool 14 by3 um with a little wood deck in front of it that I would like to be somewhere around 40 foot by6 obviously made of wood um behind the pool I want to put a 16x16 metal shed that I could pretty much store everything from the pool um I do want to run Electric in it so at least I could have like an LED light in there uh which would be convenient um uh the bedroom is really it's extending at 13 by 14 uh they mention roof height but it's not going to be any taller than what it is and the kitchen I'd like to make 15 by 16 bigger because I pretty much at this point just have a galley kitchen um and the awning in the front I I really don't have a particular size in mind um I mean pretty much I guess almost like a 12 by 12 open open awning with I guess you know it's going to need poles to support it but basically that was it also made of wood you know with the same uh shingling that the roof has and that goes the same on all the additions Madam chair yes Mr Peters um if maybe I can just ask some questions and see if we can fill in the blanks um Mr roie how'd you like hanging out here for the first three applications I tried to make it a little easier for you I'm not really sure how that worked out for me or not but I'm just trying to throw stuff out there I have really I don't have an audience so I mean I'm a little just remember everyone up there is your neighbor okay um The Shed in the back 16 by 16 it's indicated on the plan that it's for the it's it's a pool building um no storage of vehicles no no business being run out of it no one's living in it no it's just for storage no worship no Gathering it basically I'm going to it's going to be off the back of the pool okay and just basically storage like I said with you know electric for a light between the official looking plan and the handwritten plan that shows the additions to your existing house the pool equipment is shown in two different locations um the fancy plan it's shown it should be behind the pool in between the two trees okay sorry so Mr Roby if you want to can't talk while you're not in front of the mic but if you want to walk over here I'll show you the two plans you can go back before the mic and you can figure out which one you want first one was this this so it'll be so Mr roie the the proposed pool equipment is going to be located near the proposed wood deck in front of the pool correct correct thank you that clarifies the difference between one plan and another plan let's go over to the house you have an existing um moderate sized house um you're looking to square off pretty much the back of the house right I'm looking as you drive in from the street you're looking to square off the back left of the house with a bedroom correct and the back right of the house at some point with a kitchen absolutely yes then as you're staring at the front of the house to the front right of the house you're considering at some point posting down an awning to cover that 12 x 12 area in that corner area that that uh 12 12 or 13x13 area I would like to put an awning in that area okay um that's all I have at this point Madam chair um the so it's a 16 so just to just like I did in the last one so we're talking about a wood deck yes ma'am right 16 by 16 metal shed uh with just electric that's going to be primarily for uh pool storage and as Mr Peter stated at some point in the future square off the uh back of the home with the extend the bedroom in the kitchen yes and the pool is going to be approxim approximately 14 by 30 yes any other questions for the applicant just clarification the size of the I'm sorry you said the size of the deck and I didn't what was it 40 by 16 thank you and just for clarification for the board from a maximum building coverage perspective there's negligible increase and there's still uh only half of what is required in the or what the maximum requirement is in the zone so maximum requirement is 15% they're with the improvements they'll be at 7.7% you answer a lot of my questions thank you Mr Peters I don't know if it was through the chair make sure your micone I don't know yes this is a uh so my understanding this is your your property is also less than one acre 40,000 square F feet 9.4 994 Acres yeah okay um you're also zoned R3 so this is the R3 Zone where three acres is required so you would also again every application on its own Merit every application a different record you would fit um the same um type of hardship uh that was discussed in the prior application a C1 hardship because again you purchase the property on the at this size right okay so the same thing applies where um you purchase the property at 0.94 acres in in in a that requires three acres that in and of itself is a statutory hardship because you based upon the setbacks and the like you're not going to be able to do anything without variance right so all right so I just want to get that on the record it's required finding so M Mr Murphy can can we just confirm too though that there there are several variances required which all pertain to existing non-conformity because of the zone change right there's only one actual variance required here tonight am I correct in saying that and that's for the pool side yard setback and that's it oh I see for the R3 zone I'm sorry you're right Mr Peters if it was R1 what would it be well I'm sorry what would the setbacks be let me be clearer for the still be for side could I just clarify uh the new proposed structure is the 16 by 16 shed yes and there's already two sheds and a garage on the property correct um for the professionals there's no limit to the number of accessory structures on a property okay thank you and sorry another question if I may um the existing shed that's 659 ft um does that is that within a sidey yard setback it looks close I don't have dimensions it's not dimensioned on the plan but it appears that it may be less than the what the Zone currently requires yes but I don't know if it was when at the time it was constructed if it met the setback requirements at that time so if it met then it's like grandfathered in yeah but you could you have the opportunity to clean that up by just saying you can't expand that existing shed any closer to the property line which they technically anyways can't do correct without a variance anyway okay thank you along those lines um the existing house apparently is not compliant and the additions um that are proposed for the house should be noted for variance relief as well um again the house was compliant as it was built as the zones changed they became non-compliant but for the purposes of Mr Murphy writing an affirmative resolution we should make sure that the variances that were noted in the zoning officer's Denial in our report and on the submitted plan are incorporated into the approving resolution absolutely thank you come on Arnie they always are know everyone [Laughter] listen Le's laughing at us so Evan just humor me because I obviously missed something when you were writing because I I have half a word you said that um even with the changes and that includes the kitchen the extension of the kitchen the and the bedroom that it's minimal it's negligible increase going to revise those remarks and ultimately defer to Ernie's report which outlines all the variances that are required because of the zone change I was looking at it as I was just looking at I was looking as an engineer I was oversimplifying it and that's from that perspective yeah Madam chair um these mostly have to do with the side yard setbacks so it's not as though someone took a box a square box and put a bunch of squares in it and they're all next to each other these all have they have from a I guess from front to back they have sufficient space to accommodate them it's the narrowness of the lot that causes the need for the side yard setback variances and again I don't want to testify for the applicant but as as if you just sort of stood the plan on end here and you'd see that the existing side yard setbacks if you drew the required ones they' go through the middle of the property so I think quite frankly um that the plan is laid out reasonably in terms of its um coordination with the neighborhood um the houses in the front Port your patios in the back deck in a pool pool house behind it um all sort of in line with the house so when you look when you drive past the house you don't necessarily see everything behind the house so it's not as though they put them off to the side um so in that respect from a planning perspective I don't take any exception to the requests for the side yard setback relief that are being asked and again for the board this is the very definition of of this this is a very it's a prime example of a statutory hardship I mean it really is because of the nature of the zone change the chair I may yes just cuity do you have Sue servers uh no I have septics sir okay uh would the applicant have to go to the board of Ocean County Board of to tell them about the additional bed that is part of the building permit process so if if they are expanding the number of bedrooms or um um actually if they're only expanding the number of bedrooms or if they're putting any type of Plumbing fixtures in the pool building um then that would have an effect on the septic but I didn't hear that you were doing that no pool it's a shed and it's a bedroom no additional bathrooms going in no bedrooms if there's an additional bedroom your yeah yes so then you yeah actually what I'm doing is I'm not adding a room I'm making my room bigger so you're not adding another bedroom no it's still going to it's still going to be the same three bedrooms but the bedroom will be bigger right now mine's in the front and if you're familiar with Cedar Swamp I've had people come and run all my grass into the pole so we're right now we're move to a smaller room so I'd like to make it bigger more comfortable and safer yes so ultimately it's a it's a building per it would be vetted out at the time of a building permit and um from what I'm hearing there's there's no there's no septic system expansion required thank you and Mr Peters this question is for you it could just be that this is just standard I was just curious to be honest letter O and it talks about sidewalks in curbing is that just standard because there I don't believe there are sidewalks there right no ma'am that's yeah the the ordinance um does state for all applications so whether someone wants to come in to put a pool in in theory if there's no Curves in sidewalks as a practical matter we should address that quite frankly simply a consistency issue so whether you're doing a minor subdivision a major subdivision a major site plan there should be some reconciliation that this is the character of the neighborhood and that we're not asking them to do something that's not necessarily out outside the character of the existing neighborhood makes sense any other questions for the [Music] applicant seeing no other questions obviously I would open it to the public but other than your wife there's no one else she could protest right more than once no I heard her no I heard her say you're going to be back in that front bedroom yeah that's where I am now yes if well let me open it to the public for official record if there's anyone wishing to come forward and make comment on this application please do so seeing no one come forward we're going to close public session board it's up to us for discussion and a possible motion questions comments issues I would I would move to approve the application I think the only thing we have to state is the size of the shed um I have to be honest with you when we came in I had a lot of questions when I had read through this to be prepared you answered the more Mr Peters got all the answers I was looking for all my little notes um I'm in agreement with Dr hofstein so I would second his motion any other question I'm sorry oh six oh I'm sorry 16 by 16 metal shed it is going to have electricity because it's going to be for pool storage no he said we about the size we have to make sure when Ryan does the resolution we have to mention the size of the ship oh yeah yeah oh no Dr H said that so I was just answering sh's question so any other questions or comments All right we have a motion and a second roll call please Mr Stafford Smith yes Mr book oh sorry is not here Mr Hudak yes Miss Parnes yes Mr Hyman yes Dr hin yes Miss Bradley yes Mr roie Mrs roie your variance is approved thank you very much everyone have a great evening of course motion to journ all in favor I um just uh