##VIDEO ID:TUWF1pLyfUw## e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e we're going to call this meeting to order please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible of liberty and justice for all good evening ladies and gentlemen pursuant to njsa 10 col 4 the open public meetings act notice of this duly and regularly scheduled meeting of the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment has been published and posted in all appro locations Liz can we have roll call please Mr Heyman here Dr hofstein Mr Hudak Miss Parnes here M Rosal here Mr Martins Mr Stafford Smith here miss Bradley here do we have any resolutions this evening Mr Murphy no resolutions tonight Madam chair do we have any minutes this evening LZ no we do not Madam chair okay and I do not have a voucher Liz no vouchers oh okay we're moving right along any announcements this evening Mr Murphy uh yes we do we have um one announcement regarding this evening's agenda uh that is application number one Rosen Bloom variance 3464 for Block 13301 Lot 19 is being carried to the November 20th 2024 meeting of the Jackson Township zoning Board of adjustments no additional notice will be required on that application so this is the notice that it's being carried to that date um and the applicant has waved time if applicable to the application um we also have an announcement regarding our next meeting which is uh which is scheduled well was scheduled for October 2nd of 2024 that meeting of the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment has been cancelled um first it's the it's the first night of um Russia begins at Sunset um and there were no applications that were listed for that evening so we're going to be cancelling that meeting um the October 16th meeting uh of the Jackson Township voting board of adjustment is still scheduled to go forward uh but if that changes uh that will be published and posted um so the October 2nd meeting is cancelled other than that I have no more uh announcements this evening okay can we swear in the professionals please thank you gentleman for raising your right hand you solemnly swear or firm that the testimony information questions or comments are you better to present before the board or represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes yes if you would each please state your name and your positions with the board Evan Hill Board engineer Ernie Peters board planner Jeffrey Pororo zoning officer thank you Mr Murphy I believe we're having an executive session this evening just a very brief one Madam chair uh I will articulate the resolution on the record um and then I will ask that somebody make that uh resolution uh and approve by motion um whereas the Zoning Board of the township of Jackson is subject to certain requirements of the open public meetings Act njsa 10 4 whereas the open public meetings Act njsa 10 4-12 provides that an executive session not open to the public may be held for certain specified purposes when authorized by resolution whereas it is necessary for the zoning Board of the township of Jackson discuss in a SE in a session not open to the public matters relating to the item or items authorized by njsa 10 412b this being those matter uh this this evening that matter being litigation more specifically the matter of Denton Holdings LLC versus Jackson Township and the Jack and the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment now therefore be it resolved by the by the zoning Board of the township of Jackson enter executive session for disc discussion of litigation and more specifically the matter of Denton Holdings LLC versus Jackson Township and the Jackson Township zoning board it is anticipated that deliberations conducted in close session may be disclosed to the public upon the determination that public interest will no longer be served by such confidentiality so uh as requested if I can have a a motion to enter executive motion roll call please Mr Heyman yes Dr hofstein Mr Hudak miss parnaz m Rosal Mr Martins yes Mr Stafford Smith Miss Bradley yes we will return in about I hate to say it 10 to 15 10 to 15 minutes see in about an hour no I'm just kidding kidding e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e we're going to call the meeting back to order we need a resolution to come out of executive session please motion a motion second s second roll call please Mr Hyman yes Dr hoffstein Mr Hudak Miss parnaz Miss Rosal yes Mr Martins yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss Bradley yes okay do we have any matters for discussion Mr Murphy okay no Madam chair all right then we're going to move forward to applicant number two forgive me if I butcher your name Ezreal and Judy Sher variant 3517 that's block 1400 1 lot 6 239 Jackson Pines Road good good evening if if you would please uh raise your right hand do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments they are about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you very much if you would please state your name eel sure uh spell your last name for me s c h r uh and are you the homeowner I am very good okay all right Mr Sher why don't you tell us what you guys are trying to do with your prop I I have to ask because of my past cancer I don't have hearing on my left and the high ceilings are bouncing sounds all over so I'm really having difficulty okay okay so we'll try to speak as as possible and if you could as well even if you have to yell okay if you could tell us what you're trying to do with the property yes um first of all I'm from Cleveland born and raised um I was a very successful surgeon and I went white water rafting I became uh paralyzed for two months and it took me two years to learn to walk the day I learned to walk I got cancer of the brain and the spine I've been in therapy since but thank God I'm alive and that's the Miracle of Life I moved to Jackson because of my grandchildren are here and Jackson had land so I knew that I always go swimming in Cleveland for therapy and I needed a therapy pool that's what I'm trying to do I'm trying to get a pool in that area all right and so the um the issue is that your property is zoned R3 now and you don't have enough acreage correct right I don't understand all that you know the zone three Zone one I just know that the only reason why I even contemplated doing this is because I had people who were in the my exact same situation but they were originally Zone one they were zone three they got a set back and can they're exactly the same amount so can I ask you a question please how large is your lot I can't hear you how large is your lot a little over an acre okay um Madam chair if I could just a quick uh summary um the property is in the R1 zone I'm sorry the R3 Zone it's undersized for the R3 um Zone and it doesn't meet the intent of a lot of record standards meaning it was never once R1 there are properties in the area that are um okay large enough for the R3 Zone but it's basically because lot's too too small for the um R3 Zone very good so so Sor so it was never R1 okay so I'm going to explain this to you just just so you understand it all right many of the properties in the R3 Zone which is the Zone where you're located were previously R1 okay when it changed to R3 a lot of record ordinance was adopted and any lot that was previously R1 and now R3 had certain protections but it only applied to lots that were previously zoned R1 I don't know why this was quite a while ago okay what happened here is that you're in the R3 Zone you were never previously R1 so that means that your lot is undersized for the Zone because you have an undersized lot for the Zone it means that you're probably not going to meet your setback requirements because it requires 50 feet on each side so you're here because you have an undersized lot and you're seeking to do put an improvement on an undersized lot that you probably need variances for all right well we know you need variances for that's why you're here um so that's why you're here and maybe somebody else in the R3 Zone didn't have to come just so you understand that it has to do with the way that the ordinances were were written that I can't speak to though all right so so just just to clarify the the zoning officers indicated why you're here so I guess we'll hear from the professionals at this point Mr Peters thank you madam chair um they take no exception to anything that anyone said so far um I simply remind the board that if this gentleman came in put a shed up it's an undersized lot so when you take the R3 dimensional setbacks and put them on an R1 lot you don't end up with nothing but you end up with a much smaller usable area for the principal structure the house an accessory structure like a shed or a pool so without testifying for the applicant he has a hardship because he's a 1acre lot in a three acre Zone through no fault of his own if that makes sense to you often when we hear undersized lot cases um we may say did you go out and try to acquire property from other folks so I'm not sure if that necessarily applies because the pre-existing lot is non-conforming so everything that's on the property is permitted because it was existing the grand what some people refer to as the grandfathering provision of the lot of record ordinance does not apply to this lot so he's sort of out on an island he's got a 1acre lot in a 3 Acre Zone and because because of that when he tries to build this pool it doesn't meet the setback requirements for accessory structures for the R3 zone now um Mr Sher certainly in his opening comments gave us um part of his hardship proof he has a medical condition that would tend for him to need some sort of exercise pool to the extent that the board wants to discuss well if if the setbacks for the accessory structure pool if you use the R1 Zone standards and you're sort of in keeping with that is that the middle ground because applying the R3 standards for a pool he doesn't meet the setbacks again I I I don't want to sound like I'm testifying for the applicant but I know he's familiar with his property and I know he's seen our report his property is approximately 120 20 ft wide the side yard setbacks for accessory structures are 50 ft so he could build a 20 foot wide pool as of right if this was the R1 Zone the standards would be less and the pool may or may not comply but they would be less than 50 feet so to the extent that you want the applicant to provide you additional information about the need for the pool the location of the pool the size of the pool um but I I think it was important that the board understand that he's a one acre lot in a non-conforming 3 Acre Zone and I'm happy to ask answer any questions or try to elicit testimony from the applicant if you'd like I would jump on just just from my perspective I would jump on what M Mr Peter said and I I would tell you that based upon that alone there's a statutory hardship right in terms of what we're dealing with in a c with a C1 variance right and that's is there an exceptional situation with regard to the property right itself and here there is he's in in R3 Zone with a one acre lot that in of itself is a hardship he didn't create that hardship it exists um so again it it it sort of turns and as Mr Peter said we can ask about the pool and things of that nature but it sort of turns now to the toward the negative criteria and we did hear the the reason why the pool is necessary so just keep that in mind uh the board is free to ask any questions about the pool that that it feels is necessary for the record but um I I concur with everything Mr Peter said Madam chair I'm sorry forgive Mr Sher if you like to sit you can sit and use that microphone you don't have to stand there sir yes please I did want to take a minute Mr Peters mentioned some this is just a learning moment for the board um we we talk about undersized lot cases that is not what this is uh undersized lot cases are governed by the do Meer case uh that's where the uh undersized lot is unimproved and they're trying to improve that lot um here we have it an improved lot a lot with improvements um that pre-exist the R3 Zone um that's why it's different than what's required in the do Meer case all right and that's something that you'll learn uh if you're not familiar with it or I'll or one of the professionals will point out there's certain requirements under dalm that have to be met that is not applicable here thank you um Mr Peters you mentioned um that because this is one acre um it could be helpful to I guess borrow the the setbacks setback requirements just to kind of gauge what's reasonable for the size lot do you have the R1 setbacks for accessory structures handy thank you Miss paress I we've been working together long enough now that I knew when I said that someone going to ask me the question so I apologize I know Mr I know our board attorney isn't a big fan of folks looking stuff up on their cell phones but as opposed to having my computer out or bringing the code book with me I have looked up online the R1 standards you're permitted sir thank you counselor don't want to get him a bad side of the attorney um the sidey setback for a residential swimming pool in the R1 zone is 20 feet thank you and so it it would appear that the applicant's proposal would meet those standards for comparison purposes thank you and um Mr Shore um could you explain it it seems like if you were how well let me back up for a second do you know the dimensions of the pool that you're looking to put in 20 by 40 20 by 40 did you consider um having the the width it see I I sorry I just I want to make sure we're clear the map we have shows a dimension of the area of the pool is 35x 50 that's with these cement surroundings the pool itself there no I want to make sure that it's clear because on this drawing the surface of the water is 30 by 50 no 35 by 50 water is 20 by 40 perfect thank you so are these drawings not okay what I'm sorry are these drawings not indicative of what you're looking to put in I believe that they were um any comment from our professional I'm reading the personally I'm reading it as 35 by 50 yeah I I agree it's it's depicted on the plan as 35 by 50 and then you know if if if it's going to be 20 by 40 I think you said um I think ultimately you'd have to you'd have to provide a revised plan for the 20x 40 pool to Jeff not not not here necessarily but ultimately to close this out but the variance relief would be less than what he's seeking now if that were the case uh it would be 5 foot more on each side so the VAR so the setbacks would be there must be a different plan because I submitted um a change when Dawn asked me to have it fixed they sent in a second plan okay we never got the second plan we have one that shows 35 by 50 that's okay I mean you're you're you're looking at worst case scenario here but I'm saying for variance relief purposes it would be F there'd be an additional I'm assuming five feet on each side Beyond what's on depicted on this plan which would be even more conforming to the R1 standards well I think my question was um if the pool it seems like the length of the pool is running um to the width of the property like we had to make it as close as possible to the steps of the retaining wall to my um to my door so that I would have the minimum amount of stress what there would there be a way to like if you would rotate it and have the 20 foot width would that I tried that I tried that it would be two problems number one even like going to a plane I need the wheelchair I need help to go down the aisle you're talking 40 feet it's maybe simple but it's not that simple no but right okay understood thank you for clarifying that's all those are my questions there I uh did a site visit and the layout of the pool would not be practical for this gentleman's ability if it were to be rotated for him to get to it it just it wouldn't make sense and it's the way it's even though the dimensions you off but the layout is probably most suitable for his use what we site time question I know you uh indicated you submitted a new plan to the zoning office can you just tomorrow contact Dawn and make sure that she has that so that the professionals can have it I'll make that a condition of the approval that we get the updated plan right I didn't I don't I just checked I didn't I didn't get a copy so I I don't I don't know if she has it or not but I I haven't seen it and none of our professionals have seen it if I'm not mistaken the outer border is the fencing of that pool and the pool itself the 20x 40 you have 15 or 10 or 15 ft to the left side of the pool Which is closest to my steers and only five on the three sides of cement so the drawing is yeah Mr Sher the drawing scales correctly if if your engineer has a error on it or somehow it got misconstrued but that drawing that's on the board pool is 35 ft wide and 50 ft across your backyard scale correctly on that plan and that's the information that's here if you're going to make it smaller that makes it easier for the board because we can just take the numbers down you're going to make it closer to the setback and you're going to need more relief if you were to make it bigger that would be a problem so I think the chair has given you an out please make sure what it is you're looking for gets submitted to the board as soon as possible understanding that your testimony is it's not a 35x 50 pool but instead a 20x 40 pool I I have one question for the applicant U do you know where you're do you know where over here I'm sorry right here that's okay I hear you do you know where your septic system is yes where is it the top let's say is the top of the DI North yes okay so it's on theth side towards the front of the house okay so it's it's forward of that the house okay thank you I did just want to clarify for the record uh the application itself that you submitted does indicate that you're looking for a 20 by 40 pool which again consistent with your testimony this evening and I'm not trying to belabor the point the point is is that the drawing that's up there does not show 20 x 40 so make sure that you speak to your uh uh engineer or your professional to get that either revised or submit the new plan that's that's all all right but it your application itself does request a 20 40 pool I I will say that any Mr Hudak microphone can I'm sorry can you repeat the question I um I had IND a yeah I I would suggest that that would be the case Mr sh is that swing set that's shown on the plan does that currently exist say that again the swing set or the play set that's shown on the plan does that currently exist on the property it's a temporary setting we're going to move it in the back okay I just where do you know where you're going to put it technically it's a structure so technically it requires a variance so while you're here I want to get it get it taken care of okay all right do you know where you're going to put it on the property approximately you would move your arrow don't forget to speak to the microphone if you would use your arrow if that if top is is North we would go south as o as behind the pool on the South Side so toward the rear of the property near near what toward the rear of the property you would go with that towards the rear of the property okay so we could say maybe no closer than no closer than 20 20 feet to the side yard property line that would be acceptable sure beautiful okay I'll I'll incorporate that in the resolution just so you don't not a problem just so you don't have an issue through chair while we're on the swim set you have a shed on the property a a previous shed that was sitting there yes and where is the shed located um actually there is two sheds and one of them we're just going to take down where the pool um equipment is going to be so where you see the shed right now that's coming down and that's where the pool equipment's going to be over to the right of the generator the other thing was there and that's towards the north towards the front of the house towards the east that was sitting there is is that the one that's coming down no the one that's coming down is the one where the pool equipment is going to come it's an old wooden one as opposed to a uh a you know one of these lifetime plastic ones okay I I would check to see if the shed also meets the uh the shed that you're keeping that may not meet setbacks either so I think you should look into that too I didn't a chair I would offer the same condition on that I if it's needed I'll I would offer the same condition I would suggest no closer than 20 feet to any of the property lawns for the shed oh it okay then it's not even an issue where it's going to be correct and no closer than 20 feet to the property line I think would be an appropriate again if we're if we're going to be guided by again we're not we are not bound by the R1 Zone requirements but based upon the nature the application I think it's an appropriate Benchmark here um you know so that's why I'm saying 20 ft um because it's compliant it would it would be in compliance if this were in the R1 Zone which you know again that would be the size of the properties appropriate for the R1 Mr Murphy is is a generator odds or an issue with being part of the clarification thank you any additional question Mr Martin yes I do have one um just try to address the the revised plan right the revised plan I want just want to show you something on this one and ask you if it would change I can't Mr Martin just yes yell as much as you can into the microphone okay can you hear me better now yes yes oh okay great um just to show you a table that's on this plan that I think will revise and make your case better right because you seem a little hesitant about the the the the of the revised plan I want to make sure it's going to impact it there that says what the requirement is and how much you're you're uh proposing and how much variance you have yeah um keep going to the right sorry I got my left wrong there there's a little Zone keep going keep going down there's a table right there that shows basically why you have have a variance keep going down there it is right there right so once you revise it right what to the uh 20 by 40 you'll be closer to being in compliance and that will help your case I can't hear you can't hear me okay I apologize anyway I I think we get the point right that that's why I just want to put on the record that those the required won't change but your proposed will change and will hopefully get better and you'll be closer to being aligned to what the the requirement is once you change the plan the only thing that I understand that I have to change yes are the numbers that it's the 35 overall with the fencing as opposed to just the water once those numbers are understood I mean I'm telling you it's a 20 by 40 yes but and the third the numbers that are there represent the around there and the fence okay so I'm hoping that we could get get this thing in process and just like I presented everything within days yes to Dawn if there is something that needs to be changed it'll be changed okay so so just to be clear on here it says you're proposing the side setback to be 2920 ft by you changing the amount of water versus concrete will it change that total or not yes yes okay great so so that's going to help you sorry go ahead Mr sh your engineer your engineer has to redraw this plan correct it was drawn in correctly but is that the only thing that has to be redrawn to be understood well I think I think there's more I think once your engineer draws the correct pool Dimensions you're going to see that your your concrete needs to come needs to shrink as well right just make sure your engineer understands that you want a 20x 40 pool and make sure he also understands exactly how much concrete he wants around it because right now he drew it way too big he drew it much bigger than what you want everything is much bigger okay okay and if he has any questions he can call me or call Jeff okay all right and then the other thing that would you would need to take off the shed that's going to be removed and you will need to take off the shed that's going to be removed and then you'll have to show where the swing set will be once it's moved and the other sh the other shed is staying in place the by the by the near the front of the house right okay I say the one shed was staying but the one was being removed so so we have to show that removed and then the show where the swing set is going to be okay okay CH shouldn't the other shed also be included so we know what the setback is for that well no because it's going to be one's going to be removed but and the one that stay will be on there but you should make sure that it meets the no right no no no that's what I'm saying it will be on the that the one that's staying has to be on the plan the one that's being removed has to be taken off okay so the shed that's being removed will not show on the next on the correct plan but the shed that's remaining needs to be shown on the plan did I explain that better okay my job is to write what's called a resolution so when all those said and done tonight you're going to get in writing everything you need to do okay it's going to be approved all right by the board whatever that you know assuming the variance is approved once the resolution is approved by the board you'll get a copy of that it'll tell you everything you need to do for comp for resolution compliance okay any other question to the applicant just one question drusin this would be to Mr Murphy what would be the reason for the board using R1 standards in an R3 Zone how how do we get get around that since it wasn't an one at any time you're not we're not saying that the R1 Zone standards are applicable to this property because they're not what we're using them as a guide because this this is a a a 1acre lot which is permitted in the R1 zone so we're trying to figure out what's permissible in terms of uh what we typically see with a a a uh an or a lot this size right and we're considering the fact that this hardship that exists with this property being in the R3 Zone um subject to three acres how do we how do we get around how do we get around the fact or or that this hardship exists and how do we make sure the standards that we're applying are going to be you know consistent with the standards in the township right so we're not applying the art we're using them as a guide as to what's appropriate but we're granting variance from the R3 Zone standards so we're not using R1 standards we're simply just using them as a guide it's in the record why we're doing that sure okay any other questions for the applicant seeing that there's no other questions from the board I'm going to open this to the public anyone wishing to come forward and make comment about the application and any testimony you've heard tonight please do so at this time seeing no one come forward I'm going to go ahead and close public session board it's up to us for discussion and a possible motion comments questions just for the sake of the motion um I'm just going to list the conditions that we have um we're going to have a uh new drawing shown the proposed 20x 40 pool with the appropriate uh drawing of the water as well as the conrete surrounding it um we're going to permit the uh place at to remain on the property no closer than 20 ft um to any side property line uh and the same will be said for the remaining shed no closer than 20 ft to the property line uh any side property line um and a new plan will be submitted showing the drawing of the pool the concrete area the placement of the shed the removal of the shed to be removed and the placement of the playet those are the conditions that we have listed here comments questions I will second that uh reason being that the medical condition of the applicant is an exceptional reason to give the the approval I would just if if I could just add um the hardship of the lot itself being undersized for the Zone um and there being no real other suitable way to place it in a way that conforms to the current setbacks of the R3 Zone just to add to the reasons no additional comments we'll have roll call please Liz we have a motion in second Mr Hyman yes Dr hoffstein Mr Hudak yes M Parnes yes M Rosal yes Mr Stafford Smith yes Miss Bradley yes just just for the purposes of the record I Mr Heyman is losing his voice so his vote was yes and Mr sh the variance was granted okay and as and you'll get with the professionals and get the revised drawing okay I appreciate it thank you so much for your patience thank you we are going to move forward to applic number three A Partners LLC they're here for preliminary and final site plan 918 with use varant 97 block 291 BLS 79 and 10 that's 17 West Boulevard for good evening working thank you good evening Mr Madam chair members of the board board's professionals and public Kenneth Pape of the firm hurn Pape on behalf of your applicant your applicant is a Partners LLC this is an application that was partially heard by the board on in June of this year and carried to this evening this is an application for youth variance relief and site plan youth variance bulk variance and site plan approval to permit the development of the the property with two buildings and 9,000 ft office building and a 4,000 foot Maintenance building the testimony that was presented at the meeting in June was through the engineer who presented the site plan and there was um testimony from John Ray the traffic expert they when we left there was a discussion between the applicant the applicants between the applicant and the board and the board's professionals with regard to one or two driveways and there was a there appeared to be a general sentiment of the board and the board's professionals that modifying the plan to include two driveways was the preference since we were last before you our Engineers contacted the county Engineers this is a County Road and secured a memorandum from the county Engineers indicating that a two driveway system was acceptable it has to be designed to their standards but it's acceptable this evening we would like to begin by presenting reintroducing Mr intii the design engineer he is under oath he is on his credentials have become part of the record and ask that he present the plan to you I've asked that he do three things one is an executive summary of what we discussed back in June just refocus the board on the application and two to discuss with you the two driveways that were presented to the the county and the County's position and the third is that uh since we were last year Mr inly has found a way to remove some of the bulk variances and I ask that he identify those to you as bulk variance relief that will be removed with your permission Madam chair I'll ask that Mr inly begin that direct presentation um Madam chair if I may uh number one Mr Pape uh I will rewear Mr anelli uh his credentials will remain accepted but that's regular practice of this board is to resare the witnesses um number two uh I did want to place upon the record we do have a formal objector here this evening Paul Rivier uh Mr rier was previously represented by Council and is no longer represented by Council um there was some off the reccord discussion regarding uh Mr River's uh request to cross-examine your professionals at the time that they closed their um testimony I was something I had discussed with the chair it was my legal opinion that that would be an appropriate measure to take based upon the request I don't believe there was an objection from you um but I'll hear you if you wanted uh to make an objection to that um but my my my legal and procedural uh thinking on that particular issue is that Mr Riv has the same rights as any Council um and in so far as Council would be permitted to cross-examine your Witnesses so will Mr R no objection to cross-examination of our witnesses that would be questions of the witnesses testimony that is presented this evening um as long as that doesn't be expand to being an introduction of case and chief would have to be reserved until the conclusion of the applicant's presentation that's correct uh of course any cross examination just like in a courtroom or any other hearing uh of this type would be limited to what is placed upon the record this evening um that is appropriate procedurally and legally um and so yes that's correct obviously I will hear any objection at the time of cross examination if necessary um but I appreciate you not uh having a formal objection to that um and with that I'll swear Mr antillan if you would please raise your right hand thank you sir uh again your credentials have been accepted so I'm just swearing you in for the purpose of the record do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to place upon the record be the truth whole truth and nothing but the truth I do if you would please just state your name and your affiliation Michael B in Tilly uh and the project engineer project manager on the site and with crust Engineering Associates Tom dber as a principal thank you sir thank you Mr inly you presented the plans to the board when we were here in on June 19th you had an overview and then went through considerable detail with regard to the elements of the site plan I'm going to ask this evening if you could just take a few moments just a few moments to identify the property its size its Zone and the applican proposed development plans yes uh we are 29.9 acres in overall size located in the highway commercial Zone on the south side of West commo Boulevard uh we do have Frontage on Route 195 the state highway to the South uh we're surrounded centrally by Highway commercial zone property and some developments some residential development uh to our uh to our West on Lot 8 as a residential home and another one to our East also on West commodor Boulevard um there are Residential Properties uh across uh West Commodore Boulevard also but the majority of properties are of course Highway commercial and Commercial Zone um Jackson outlets for example and Crossroads realy I believe to the West you just brief describe the proposed development plan yes uh we're proposing a 9,000 ft twostory office building and a 4,000 foot Maintenance building that's one story uh part of the site plan uh development would be a 50 car parking lot uh Landscaping lighting of course um we're proposing a sand bottom infiltration Basin which meets the standards for njde best management practices I testified uh last time of about the details of that meaning water quality and water detention uh we're proposing a septic field on a pable well uh retaining wheel that runs along the western and southern property line um and uh a single driveway that will access the site for both the uh the uh yard in the back the contractor's yard which is proposed and the maintenance building and as well the office building there are a couple of statements that were made on the record that I would like to just to have re stated the property is 28.94 acres in size and you indicated that there's only a small portion of the property that is Uplands and developable and that you had used only that portion for the calculation of the development potential of the property take just a moment to restate that please yes I mentioned 29.9 Acres the overall surveyed size of the property um there was a 2016 U Loi there was an FHA application and 2010 there are easements filed and uh most of the site is a conservation easement uh which subtles 26.2 of the 29.9 Acres leaving is about 20 2.7 acres for development and that's the portion that we're staying within all the standards that you quoted the impervious coverage building coverage you didn't rely on that 29 Acres you relied on the 2.7 we did I will also remind the board that when esm seino testified she is one of the principles of the company she indicated that the two-story office building was n 9,000 ft the second floor is intended to be their business offices the second floor would be a rental space and that the maintenance yard would be their maintenance yard and building that they would not rent the maintenance yard to a third party the maintenance yard and the maintenance building would be ancillary to their primary use which was the office on the second floor all and those commitments were made by Miss seino and are binding on the applicant if you could take us through the I'm going to call it the second driveway design that was presented to the the county if you could place on the record the County's response to your office and to John Ray's office before before you do that can I just ask a question the maintenance itself that's proposed only to take place in the maintenance building from what I recall no activity outside of the building that's I just wanted to get that I I recall that I just wanted to make sure that I got that back on the record no activity outside of the building thank you and if we could put up the uh second egress plan um titled second egress in the title Block it's a rendering it shows the two driveways that's it thank you so this is the conceptual two two driveway plan driveway one on the west side and East here um this obviously separates all of the truck traffic to the rear maintenance area and yard to back keeping the office uh traffic and parking area completely separate this was submitted to the county we were obviously interested in their comments before tonight's meeting we did get the result of those comments which was that the county is okay with that second entrance um should this uh go farther with this entrance we'll go ahead and submit to the county get a a formal approval from them describe the the the two driveway system and the circulation that would follow from the two driveway system as presented so to the yard area on the western driveway would be the construction vehicle traffic coming in um for maintenance at the maintenance building here yellow building to the to the east this is paved area uh porest pavement area in the back the entrance for any office activity um tenants such as uh office tenet would be in this parking lot here and there's no access from that area uh into the construction driveway area so they're completely separate and there are three parking spaces in the back for the maintenance and there are 47 spaces uh total of 50 in the uh in the main office area and is it your calculation that that parking Arrangement meets the ordinance requirements for both buildings yes it does I also indicated that there were some variances that you found a way to remove from the plan could you take a moment to describe the variances that are removed yes we removed the variance which is 20 ft required from the right away to the parking we had 19 on the plan we'll make that 20 ft so that variance be removed the sign had uh three variances uh two of which will remain one is area 30 square F feet is allowed we're proposing 34 square feet for the monument sign and we only have the one sign um the height of the sign uh maximum is 6 feet we're proposing 8 ft of sign for that Monument sign because we want to landscape the base of that sign uh therefore the extra 2 feet and the setback uh was the third um which is 30t required currently showing 24.6 feet to our sign which is located in this area here but we will conform to the 30 feet so that variance will also go away the last meeting you indicated that you had received staff reports and that you could comply with the technical requirements that were brought to our attention by the both the planner and the engineer if you could restate that the technical requirements that appear in their reports can and will be met by your office if this board grants the approval as requested yes I I have two uh board professional reports uh EDH engineering June 1624 we can comply with all requirements in that letter in that uh review and then uh we have two from RVE one June 11th the latest being August 2 6 24 and we will comply with the comments in that letter as well Madam chair I have nothing further on Direct of Mi Mr in he is available to the board board's professionals and as directed for cross examination the chair okay y so just to just to clarify this this this is an exhibit plan you're presenting tonight you haven't fully re-engineered the drawings for this concept correct that's correct yes okay U I'm sure while you were developing this concept plan though you were you were going through the mental exercise in your head as far as can the property be adequately fully engineered to meet storm water management requirements um uh traffic requirements uh lighting landscaping and so on I mean you're not as a result of this revised plan you're not asking for any additional waivers from ordinance development standards correct we are not that's correct okay every uh every aspect of the uh elements that you measured uh mentioned with regard to engineering of the site by the addition of the second entrance would not uh substantially change anything and no variances would be required uh as a result of that okay and then I want to I want to just step through uh some of the prior approvals that were in place uh for the for for development activities on this site you talked about a letter of interpretation from the D that was dated in 2006 therefore would have expired uh actually there were permanent extension acts that came into play but let's just say it has expired up to this point and also the requirement of recordings that followed from the that permit were were filed on the property correct so right the LOI well I'm sorry let me that's actually twofold though because the LOI didn't require any conservation eus the LOI just indicated what the uh Wetlands buffers should be right it just classified the buff it classified the wetlands you the applicant further went ahead and submitted for a flood Hazard a area verification an IND an individual permit for Wetlands a general permit actually a couple different General permits and a transition area averaging plan one of the conditions of all of those D freshwater wetlands permits was to record the environmentally sensitive areas into a conservation that was one of the conditions there were other conditions that needed to be satisfied as well some of those conditions are specific to Land Development activities and my understanding is well actually my I want you to I want to I want you to confirm if any of the regulated activities had been completed as part of that permit and for instance has the transition area has the wetlands buffering been modified right um as per the TAA plan approval our plan um of development started with the conservation easements filed uh as the base for the development of the remainder of the site okay we're not proposing any changes to the filed easements and buffers okay but I I want to I understand you're not proposing any changes but the language within the within the regulations is this if permit if the permit does not conduct regulated activities before the TAA waiver expires right so development activities the following apply with regard to the transitionary if no activities have been conducted regardless of whether or not a conservation restriction was recorded the permit shall obtain a new ta waiver to conduct regulated activities in the transition area so that's right from the flood Hazard area regulations so just the fact that you recorded something doesn't lock you in in perpetuity right forever there is still a trigger that says yes you were required to do the recording of the conservation but because you did not do any site activities there is still an expiration date attached with that transition area averaging plan Mr Hill best answer I can give you is an honest answer I'm going to have to consult with the environmental consultant Who and the the D it was our understanding that the the requirements of all of those permits individual permit the general permit and the transition waiver all were vested when the easement was recorded I'll yeah I double check that I I did I've run into a similar scenario probably about 8 to 10 years ago as as a developers engineer and there was there some of the permits those that are non-developmental permits remained in effect as a result of the the recording of the easement however those that are triggered by land disturbance have an exp have a date that expires still has a date that expires it is not grandfathered by any conservation e so just I I think at a minimum what we would want to see is either either a statement in writing from the D that your permits all of your permits remain valid right or um or obtaining the necessary permits to make sure that what you're proposing right this would be on this is the response any action that this board takes is conditioned on the applicant demonstrating that all Outside Agency approvals and permits are in place and are valid we accept that the it's our understanding that all of these permits did vest we have no issue at all going to the DP with that inquiry if they have and if they have not vested then we have an obligation to pursue the replacement for them but what we're very comfortable State telling the board is that the environmental constraints on this property are known and they have been respected right I'm not worried about I'm more concerned about the validity of the T transition area waiver plan right now and the plans and the other GPS and IPS that went along with that plan because really you've reconfigured The Design Within the unregulated areas but that doesn't it's my understanding that won't absolve you from having to go back and and obtain modified or additional permits for this plan so just so we're clear no very clear and and my statement the second time the same statement but we know that every Outside Agency approval County Soil Conservation every Outside Agency approval is an approval that would be a contingency imposed by this board on the applicant we we believe that we had have them all if we don't we have an obligation to have them if the board ACC the affirmative we will pursue each and every one of those and in fact I would offer to the board there might be a way to build in a stepping stone we'll amend our application to be youth variance and preliminary and agree that we would not pursue even pursue final until those issues are resolved so there's a Mr P build a stepping stone you read my mind yeah thank you sir stop I would appreciate that I'll just stop there I'm not going to read the rest don't don't read the rest of my mind yes that's correct thank you for the amendment thank you for your clarification just to uh just to piggy B the applicant has formally amended its application to seek preliminary site plan approval only meaning that they will have to come back for final site plan I think that's appropriate based upon the fact that now we're looking at a concept plan anyway it was going to be a suggestion of mine um but it's been offered by the applicant and I think that's that's that's very appropriate in this particular case if anybody has questions about that I'm happy to address it but that is permissible Mr anly Mr P given the change to the two entrances because when you were here before it was you know there was discussion of one two um how does that affect emergency vehicles wide enough big enough all the yeah the driveways both driveways are designed uh per standards to meet emergency vehicle egress and Ingress uh we have a circulation plan as part of the set that shows a fire truck in particular in the back area turning and getting out um standard designed for all of the entrance aisles the parking aisle the curb radii and such are meeting the standards for emergency vehicle access and you mentioned fire trucks um I could have missed it so forgive me I didn't notice any fire hydrants or anything like that do we have that on site what's the plan for yeah there's there there's no water so there's a poble well so uh that's that's what we would be applying for with the county yes you mentioned the portable well you're talking about putting a sister in for fire protection uh that might be part of the requirement um possibly uh we'd have to see when we make the application the architect will we have a 9,000 ft building in a 4,000 foot building and he'll go through with the board what the requirements are for suppression any other questions or comments from Mr antii being that being that there's no other comments or questions from the board for Mr inly Mr Rivier uh first of all I want to thank everybody for volunteering their time just remember to speak loudly I'll need a hand all right thank you okay uh first of all I want to thank everybody for volunteering their time I know you you know it's a lot of time and and you're giving up other things um I want to provide my briefing to the uh zoning board okay can I can I come up here now I'm going to I'm going to swear you in huh I'm going to swear you in I'm sorry I have a hearing problem I'm going to swear you in sorry I'm going to I'm going to get put you under oath we have to swear you oh oh okay so can we do that from here yes okay thank you for raising your right hand do you solemnly swear affirm that the testimony information questions or comments say you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes very good um please state your name for the record all right can I give this to to please state your name for the record my name is Paul River beautiful and you're I live at one9 right next to the site thank you sir okay you remain sworn in now you're you have a handout is that correct yes has Council seen that handout no you need to provide it to council first it's my understanding that at this moment Mr Rivier can cross-examine this witness on his testimony his case in Chief is coming later that is correct this is cross-examination only yes okay but I I I I want this to be part of the record the time that he is putting in his case in ch and they told me I can only give it to you at this meeting so so I explained the procedural aspect of this case via email what happens is the applicant is in the middle of its case in chief that can be part of the record but you're not here to submit evidence at the moment your case in Chief comes once the applicant closes then you'll be able to put your evidence on you're solely limited to cross-examination right now of the applicant witness okay so that that can come into that can come in presuming we'll talk about it later but that's evidence that you're producing in relation to your case not to cross-examine the engineer all right okay I also cross examine the attorney no you may not he's not a witness okay um I have a lot of so what do you want me to do with this not give it to anybody or what I can't I I'm not I can't provide I I represent the board I can't provide you legal advice okay what I can tell you is no I'm I'm saying from the zoning board uh side I'm not asking you for legal advice can the zoning board accept this now no not now during your case in Chief all right okay so can we have page one uh of my slide up on the board no this is examination of Mr intill yeah I think I think hold on no it it has to do with with this man's design so I need to be able to show you what I'm talking about okay he's presenting a a site plan for an industrial construction yard and uh he has not shown you any of the type of equipment there's nothing listed that will be going in there so I need to show the zoning board that's the point the the the type of equipment that's going to be going in there he and I I I understand what you're telling me what I'm telling telling you is that's procedurally inappropriate that would be that would be for your case in Chief that is not cross examination of the testimony that Mr antii just gave which is what you're limited to upon cross examination well that he has a drawing up there that has driveways and you can ask him about those drawings okay yeah and we don't know what kind of vehicles are going to use those driveways you can ask him that okay all right well that' be my first question what type of vehicles are going to be entering those driveways I'm not going to object to Mr inly testifying but the the use of the driveways was testified at the last meeting by es saverino she went through the types of vehicles that would be on the property she and placed it on the record and she also Quantified them is that uh PM constr hold on I'm sorry M I run this hearing you understand that okay okay yeah the chairwoman runs this hearing I speak for the chairwoman okay what's going to happen here okay is he's going to put his objection on the record okay I'm going to hear your response to the objection directed to me and then I'm going to make a determination as to that objection that's how this works okay okay all right Mr P would you like to finish your objection only that the testimony that you have here is the engineer's design and the question that he was asked with regard to movements was fire vehicles indicated that there's a turning template as part of his set the testimony as to the vehicles that would be entering the property was placed at the last hearing by Miss seino not by m not by Mr anelli okay Mr rier do you have a response to that well we can't we can't talk about the type of vehicles are going to go in there it's not a response that was a that was a question directed to me do you have a response to the objection of by made by Mr P I don't uh agree with it I think the the zoning board has got to know what kind of vehicles are going in there so yeah I mean how can you make a decision if you don't even know what kind of vehicles are going to go in there I will I will note Mr Riv that was placed upon the record at the last hearing however I will allow you leeway to ask the question I'm going to overrule the objection Mr antillia if you know uh can you tell the board what what type of vehicles to your knowledge will be entering the driveways yes to my knowledge um since it's a contractor's yard you'll have the typical cont contractor equipment uh backos rollers uh ex excavators dumpsters uh excuse me dump trucks and uh dozers and things of that nature okay now how how long are some of these uh tractor trailers and a tractor trailer that is trailing a uh track excavator uh how long is that rig they they can vary in length there's different size trailers my understanding I'm not in the business but I can tell you I know that I've seen how many feet could go up to 50 or 60 feet 60 feet okay sure now uh what's the Turning path for a 60 feet foot uh vehicle going in and going out the we would have to be given the Turning radi ey for each piece of equipment but generally speaking they're articulated when you have a dump truck for example pulling a a trailer uh maybe with a dozer on it and uh we would have to look at that specifically okay so how how wide is this road 30 ft the 30t 30 okay so uh I'm my research and my traffic guy says it takes at least 40 ft turning path to make a left turn so that takes the the uh vehicle off the road to to make a left turn so I I I don't know how this design could be even possible when you have a 60t machine you know making a a a left turn and it takes it 40 to 50 feet the Turning path and did you consider that when you when you uh the the site is designed and considered for fir Tru access uh it is a contractor's yard so there will be obviously uh equipment I mentioned moving in and out of the yor some possibly on trailers um and as far as what would work in there and what would not it would be uh the owner's obligation to be sure that the vehicle can come in and out of the site we we don't have specific inform my question is how can you design this if you don't know what the Turning Paths of the vehicles are we do know what the Turning path okay what's the Turning path for 60 hold on one second 40t hold on I'm you're going to ask him a question right you're going to give him the courtesy of allowing him to finish his answer before you ask the next question well let me tell you something it's very stressful to be up here I understand that all right I'm I'm just a Joe Mo neighbor just uh trying to defend my property and it the the stress is pretty bad so I'll I'll tone it down common C just common courtesy all right please it's very stressful I'll tell you the truth Okay so on this drawing here you don't show my house or the driveway doesn't that something you should show the zoning board the so they can know the full picture of this site plan this is a concept plan only the engineering plan submitted to the board do show your your house sir well it doesn't show uh it does not show the uh the driveway it doesn't this the zoning board need to see that to make an informed decision there the elements around the site or on the site plane that have been submitted well I'm saying that my driveway runs this way okay now let's talk about the site plan I mean the site triangle it does the site triangle for this site plan extend over to my property site trle ends currently as you can see at your property line that's not true if you look at your survey it goes over my driveway if you look at your survey map it goes right over my driveway if I might say the site triangles if I might say site triangles are the purview of Ocean County planning board and Engineering review when we make that formal application which shows either the two driveway entrances as you see here or a single uh they will vet that uh site triangle and surely make us provide the site triangles necessary well I'm not giving you any Fe footage I'll just tell you right now but why would we go into it knowing that your sight triangle is on my property why would we proceed we there are many sites and many properties developed where the site triangle cannot continue on the property it's then up to the county in this case to uh to uh direct the applicant as to how to proceed with that situation oh now uh the last time we were here one of the planning boards members uh asked me if I wanted to have 60ft trucks 40t from my house my back deck and uh we said no who would want a a 60ft truck you know we're on the the back deck you know 6:00 in the morning to 6:00 at night spewing uh diesel fuel and all making all kinds of noises want that to be like 40 or 50 50 ft from their back deck did you consider me when you when you uh uh designed that that truck route we we provide mitigation for uh the the things you're talking about is best we can with Landscaping a retaining wall a fence things of that nature well I can tell you how many it's only like 40 ft from my house all right as that the board recall we had the discussion there was a suggestion that by some that the driveway for the trucks be on the opposite side and your professionals and other members of the board indicated that it should be on this side so we went home knowing that you wanted two driveways and we went home with two sets of guidance we followed the guidance that Mr Hill had placed in we thought the majority of the board members it could be reversed but we think that what you're seeing is the right way for it to be designed in Mr Hill placed on the record record why now can I ask for the chair no you can't for I'm gonna hold everybody hold on I'm going to turn to our engineer who will address the comments regarding the driveway situation so yeah I don't I mean just just to clarify I don't believe it was any one of our personal opinions I believe we were in a question and answer we were questioning your son who was here at the time right representing you or working with you and it was his opinion that he would rather see the truck driveway closer to your home if we were to split them up he would sir okay I can shake my head I'm not saying anything sir okay we had specifically asked what his opinion were was at that time you can go back and watch the video online okay and my Rec my recollection was that his preference was he would rather see the truck traffic because there'd be less truck traffic on a given day versus the vehicle traffic that's my recollection okay I I concur with that can I can I that is incorrect I have it on YouTube and I transcribed it okay it specifically said cars so that's to fix because it's right on YouTube could I make a comment I believe this if I remember correctly um I was the one who asked if we could get input from the neighbor um the professional advice originally was if I remember correctly the reverse I didn't I don't have the YouTube transcript but I have a pretty clear recollection and there was conversation about you know what would be the preference and I said is it acceptable if we ask the neighbor they're the ones who were trying to consider can we ask for their input and the input very clearly was contrary to what the original professional advice from our engineer was and this and it was bigger trucks but less frequent was the like I asked the question I so clearly remember this exact right in his son and I will piggy back on that his son Mr R son spoke up and said he would prefer the truck traffic for the very reason that both of you stated because there would be less traffic there would be less trip generation I I have to disagree with we have a we have a misunderstanding it's it's on the YouTube we we said who would want huge trucks first of all that's another issue about how many trucks are going up there one a day is is a very minimum okay one a day they they're not building a a huge uh maintenance garage a fuel facility which has still not been to talk I'm again there's got this is a legal hearing okay so there has to be adherence to procedure I'm not trying to be rude I'm doing my job there must be adherence to procedure you will have your opportunity to make your case in Chief no one is denying you that right right now all we're here to do is cross-examine the engineer based upon the testimony that he gave this evening I've allowed leeway as to the the the turning radius of the trucks and what type of trucks and and things of that nature but I'm not we're not here to listen to argument at the moment okay okay um again I'm going to direct this question to the applicant my recollection okay I'm going to start with a statement my recollection is the same as Mr Hills and the same as the board members my recollection is the fact that the trip generation from the trucks was testified to be much less than the trip generation generated by the office use okay we're hearing tonight that the applicant would prefer the driveways be reversed is that something that you could engineer as part of of of the final or would that would that be possible again I'm not I'm trying to get a sense of as to what you guys you know can do with the engineering on the site that that's sort of where I'm at yeah we the site has its challenges obviously but yes we can certainly take a look at that moving that truck traffic driveway to the east side okay well we might as well just uh say that's a misunderstanding and I can go back and get the transcript but it doesn't matter can I put it on record now I don't want trucks in that area so I just want to be clear on that and the the idea that it's only one a day is ludicrous respectfully I just respectfully I just clarified that on the record you heard the applicant's engineer testify that they would look to move the driveway for the trucks to the other side and that the car generation would be moved to to the to the side that's purported to be for trucks at the moment that that's what the engineer just testified to I didn't hear that well can you come up here and help me ask driveway they want that's what you want yes okay good all right thank you do you have any fur question thank you for your help so uh now this is a class duse variance this is an industrial use Excuse and a uh Highway commercial residential EXC I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to overrule I'm going to overrule that question the engineer didn't make any testimony as to the variance criteria that's necessary nor to see the appropriate witness to address that Bonnie you got to come up here yeah I'm having okay all right and I'm not allowed to ask the attorney any questions only questioning Mr an Tilly about what he testified to tonight okay cross yes I I got that part okay now um let's talk about the LOI have you uh applied for an LOL oh I contacted New Jersey D and um talking to Mr Dench I have his email it's very clear he said that all the permits all the conservation easements and whatever deed restrictions you have are not valid and are no longer good and not to be used now he also said that he has you have to go back to the New Jersey D and uh apply for all this stuff just like it was brand new is uh have you talked to New Jersey D about the the letter uh the wetlands delineation we I'm asking the can I ask the expert please you you did again this is procedure sir it's a yes or no he is permitted to object to the question this is a legal hearing Mr Pape is the attorney for the applicant he wishes to object come up here I he can do so yeah Mr this is this is a court hearing essentially a question was asked by Mr R Mr Pape has an objection before that has an objection to place upon the record he started to talk before the question was answered this is appropriate procedure Mr Pape is allowed to object to the question and I will hear his objection the question with regard to the status of the D permits was was placed on the record a few moments ago by Mr Hill and I responded on behalf of the applicant indicating we have had not gone back to the D that it was our understanding that our D approvals remained valid but that we would go back to the de and we would inquire and if they were required to be replaced they would become a condition of approval that was my statements made to the board Mr Mr P Mr pay would it be a fair representation if I placed upon the record that it is the it is the norm in fact that every single application that comes before this board um is subject to Outside Agency approvals such as the njde yes and as a matter of fact since 1972 there Supreme Court decision that says this is the board of first impression and all other approvals are conditions and and if I understand the applicants representations correctly not only have you agreed to go back to the njd previously you've also agreed to apply only for preliminary site plan approval this evening is that correct that is correct and that we would not return for final without all the D permits in hand your objection sustained got okay now I have a question for Mr Hill you're Mr Hill right okay back about a year ago maybe a year or two years ago um the Jackson Township wrote uh Donna Jennings a letter and cited uh Jackson New Jersey code article 244 to 245 c1a saying that her application was not complete because it says all applications for a major site plan or major subdivision approvals shall be required to submit a valid New Jersey de letter of interpretation or permit before the application can be deemed complete has anything changed from that time period I I I'm not familiar with what you're talking about but I'm I'm going to object to the question I really I really don't understand what the question is to be honest with well the question is there's a checklist required are we applying this code against this application like we did against uh uh there's a Mrs Jennings there's a checklist requirement at the time of submission that proof of submission to outside agencies must be made made not that an Loi has to be in hand okay well they your lawyers the Jackson lawyers uh cited this law okay there is no law huh there is no law I'm telling you I'm telling you what the I'm telling you what the Jackson checklist requirements are for for plan submissions Sir Sir With all with all due respect you're bringing up points that just aren't adding any value to your argument here so I think all right you're just not you're you're pull you're just pulling things out of thin air and you're pulling acronyms out of thin air they're not adding any let me let me be let me be very clear okay enough everybody enough okay let me be I'm gonna object to that question because I represent this board there is no law that says he has to have an Loi before he comes to this board the Supreme Court has said that the zoning board the planning board the land use boards they are board of first impression every single resolution that this board writes includes a provision that says the approval is subject to all necessary Outside Agency approvals including the njde it is not law that you have an Loi before you come to a board okay it is not in the ordinances that you have an Loi before you come to this board okay what is in the ordinances is that you have submitted the approval for the approvals required now this application is different because they did have a an Loi and they did have approvals now whether they're valid or not that's a question that remains to be seen however it's been addressed the applicant has indicated not only will they reapply for everything that they need if that's the case but the they're going to come back before this board with for final site plan approval if they're approved for preliminary they'll come back for final and at the time they will have their valid approvals from the njde so that from from the perspective of this board from a legal perspective and that is more than satisfactory in fact that's more than what's required Mr Murphy this here in is going off the rails I agree with you this testimony that we're hearing from you sir is supposed to be directed to this gentleman okay only about the testimony that he has provided thus far and and we are really going off here and and not following the proper I have put that on the record numerous times um I have allowed significantly way here um but I too am running out of patience and that's that's tough to do for me so okay um you have to abide by the procedure if you have no more questions for Mr anelli Mr Pape will call his next witness no I do have a lot more questions okay well if they're not relevant ex to him to him yes I'm following correct okay you don't want to overly limit me so I can't get the zoning board good information we're not excuse me we're not trying to limit you you are an objector as an objector We are following procedure Mr Murphy has clearly stated that what you are to what you are allowed to question this evening is anything that was testified to tonight not last time tonight on what was only spoken about Mr in Tilly Mr by Mr enly Excuse me okay now Mr Mr Rivier I'm going to address that because that that that that ticked me off a little bit okay can I I'm going to be very I'm going be very no no no I'm going to be very clear with you here's what happened okay I have allowed you significant leeway in terms of what's going on here no one's limited you I've allowed you significant leeway you understand that okay from a procedural perspective you're well beyond what you should be doing up there okay so if you're not going to ask Mr antii any more questions you can sit down people ask if you have questions for Mr an about what excuse me cut me all I want to make sure you understand because I feel like I'm having the same conversation again and again here's what's going to happen you're going to ask Mr antii questions about what he testified to tonight if they're unrelated I will object I'm I I can't I can't I there's no way that this can keep going on all night you may cross-examine Mr antilly that is the that is the limit of what's going to happen from here on out okay can I cross the exam uh the engineer on the on the the drawing that he has up there you've asked me that question before and I've replied it in the affirmative and I will do so again you may question the engineer about the drawing that he has on the board yes okay so this fuel uh facility I couldn't find anywhere you where you provideed any detail or specifications can you provide us is did I miss something or have you provided uh how you know any details specifications and drawings for the fuel facility the purpose of the site plan is to show the location and extent of that fuel tank um and that's what we have done and you could see the fuel tank uh right on that site it's a rectangular structure right there it's white sitting on the porest fa all right so we have a box I just want to clarify we have a box that call fuel facility but we don't have any more information on it there was information submitted as I understand by the applicant under the operation statement and listed uh besides equipment and the operation and the hours and such okay so how many that there's a fuel tank that's proposed for the back of that site okay how many gallons is it is it is it sir that was all testified to last time if I remember correctly Mr P you can correct me but if I remember correctly the fuel tank was talked about a little bit more specifically last time Mr in Tilly did not discuss that this evening yes it's on the drawing but as far as capacity and things like that that was not discussed since the last meeting and I would not correct you madam chair but since the last meeting we have had numerous meetings with our client and our team and a little bit later in the evening I was going to place on the record our client has elected to remove the fueling facility it is not a necessary element of their their operation was going to be over the road diesel not to not to fuel any of the equipment and they have with close proximity to gas stations they're comfortable removing it in its entirety so the applicant is agreeing to remove the fueling station is that correct in its entirety thank you m p okay all right so how did you come up with one truck a day on uh the uh entry for that that uh facility operations testimony was by Es seino at the last meeting not by Mr intill sustained okay now have you uh submitted an environmental impacts study on for this uh site asked and answered please move on what's that you've already talked about this talked about that okay is it possible for uh construction vehicles to to decide to start parking in this area I'm asking if it's possible you're asking if construction vehicles can access the office area and park and use their parking well since the the occupier of the second floor of the entire proposed 9,000 foot building controls the yard um they will not uh obviously allow that to happen there there's there's one uh owner operator which will be the tenant of the second floor okay can complete second floor build now this site plan if it's approved can it be sold to another operator there's no restriction on the transfer of property to a third party what happens though is if this board grants approval and it the approval memorializes the commitment that's made that the rear Maintenance building would be ancillary to the primary use in the office building anyone who purchased the property would be bound to those same terms okay now how many vehicles can be stored in this storage area I don't think Mr antii testified to to that that was testimony that came from Miss seina when we're here last week oh we can't we can't uh know the number that was not until he disc well I wasn't asking uh Ken I was asking the engineer okay now when you have this uh drainage area uh the vehicles themselves and the maintenance yard they leak oil and in solvents now when it rains those solvents get washed into the uh the BR drainage basin I didn't see anything in your application where you're filtering the uh the pollutions pollutants out of the water before it goes into the drainage basin for the best manage management practices details for stor Water Management uh there are specific details about Forest pavement um construction including the uh sub uh construction of the uh subbase areas and the stone and the filtering with regard to uh the roof areas they're draining directly to uh the Bas the underground storage portion which is the portion uh near the refu in the back you don't see it on this plan okay so with regard to the just to answer your question the surface flow does go to the Basin there's a four bay uh and then it travels to the infiltration Basin which has a sand bottom and that uh um meets the standards for stone owner management for best management practices and I do I do believe you testified to that on the record this evening correct I did thank you did you show your drainage calculations in your in your in your analysis St motor report for the site was submitted to the board to the township yes and part of the checklist okay so uh I can get a copy of that I suppose so all right public record okay so uh well what would be the maximum use if they sell this property to another operator and PM goes away because PM is not the applicant it's a Partners okay they own it the property what would be the maximum well what would be the maximum usage of this this lot no it whether they sell or not he can't answer that question he wouldn't know what the new owner if there was a new owner would even do that and that's not relative to his testimony for this evening now can uh whoever's there uh repair other equipment from other companies the main in the area specifically for PM construction um and that's it all right so that's you're you're saying that's okay now now 6: a.m. to 6: p.m. let's talk about that have no Mr in yeah I know Bonnie I know okay I all right can the applicant uh share the site with another construction company that may be renting one of the uh that's already been testified to and the answer is no okay now uh uh I'm sorry what was your first name Mike Mike Mike have you reviewed the PM uh construction website and other similar construction websites to excuse me that was not part of his testimony this evening law be able ask Mr Murphy I because you know what we're living next to this what was we understand ma'am but the question got cut off before I heard it I said when would my no no not you what was your question sir no she's asking one I understand that but I didn't you C cut him respectfully the board cut off the question before I heard what Mr Rivier was asking because this is getting a little out of hand Mr Rivier what was your question to Mr antii um uh uh my impression is that everything has been minimalized she's saying that uh only uh changing the tires and oil in one truck a day a new owner can go in there and maximize that and you and the zoning Board needs to know that okay that was Mr Murphy asked you what was your question that was not your question Ryan can I paraphrase the question please Mr Hill go ahead I'm trying to remember okay so I didn't see a description of of what type of U what what what equipment is going to be maintained oh the question the I'm sorry I asked you a question I'm sorry I would like an answer to the question who is I asked you a question all right I'll come closer okay doing the best I can to speak into the mic okay okay I'm I'm speaking to the mic my question to you was what was your question about the you were started talking about a website but the board cut you off what was that what okay go ahead you you started talking to Mr antii and asked him about a website what what was your qu I didn't hear your question my question did he review the PM construction website and other excavation company websites to and then PES that to see what kind of equipment's going to go in there that that is he's not he's never going to ask that question because it's not it's not within the scope of Mr an's testimony well it's a part of his design here okay what what the whole design is a maintenance for an uh industrial excavation uh and he's the technical witness he's not he's not here to talk about the nature of the equipment he designed the he's testified that he designed the plan according to the specifications that he was provided by the applicant that is his testimony so whether or not he's reviewed a website is completely irrelevant well I'm just asking he could have said yes or no it's no big deal and I understand that but he doesn't have to that's the point he doesn't have to answer the question okay uh Mike did you consider any air pollution problem uh with this site I haven't provided any testimony about air pollution um so I don't think I can answer that for you now how about the noise level no absolutely not not all that is not within the scope of this witness's testimony okay so I'm not I I can't uh Mr a yeah I I'm I'm moving on this is a legal hearing okay there is procedure There Are Rules cross-examination is limited to the scope of the testimony provided period end of story limit the questions to the testimony he's not a noise expert he has no idea okay where where would I find the analysis of the noise and the air pollution and uh uh the dust and things like that where would I find that answers question please I'm I'm asking a question if you can tell me where I can find it it would be helpful is he going to answer that question is that a legitimate question I I I don't even know how I I wouldn't even know how to answer the question I what's the qu you're asking where you can find information about what uhu noise pollution vibrations air air quality let me let me let me uh let me those are things that are are important with every site plan Mr anelli can you represent that the applicant will comply with all state and local noise ordinances with respect if you can I'm just asking where do I find it that's all I'm asking Mr anti a question question in response to your question because I don't think Mr antii can answer that question but I'm going to clarify it for you Mr anelli if you if you can can you represent that the applicant will comply with all yes state and local noise ordinances pollution ordinances and the like I'll do my best and yes um we would be obligated to um conform to and um comply with all regulatory noise or pollution ordinances as any applicant would all right well I want to I I I just want to tell you about a little stressed out so if it looks like I'm a little aggravated excuse me I know you're up there uh volunteering your time uh I'm just trying to get to the uh information uh did you uh look at any of the negative impacts this site plan would have uh I'm asking Mike he can say yes or no can uh that this site plan would have to the neighborhood again we would be obligated to comply with the local ordinances or any other ordinances that are pertinent to the development of the site and what the use is that we're proposing on the site well the ordinance says it's Highway commercial so you you know all right well uh I think I covered enough uh I do want to say that I did uh contact D I have an email and they said all the D permits Lois everything that's all been discussed already we're not going to revisit that topic if you have no more questions Mr inly Mr at the end of this says my at the you going to have a public uh hearing at at the end of this because we have other people here want to ask questions okay we always open to the public huh we always open to the public okay and my wife is going to want to do that also okay well we have public hearing can I come back and make statements sir okay thank you I'm I'm gonna put this on the I'm going to put this on the record one one more time this was discussed via email with Mr Pape myself and Mr Riv as well as representatives from the zoning office let make the record very clear it was discussed Not only was it discussed it was discussed at length I've advised of the procedural nature of this particular hearing not only tonight but also previously via email in writing as indicated Mr Pape is in the middle of his case in Chief he's the applicant he's permitted to finish his case in Chief I've allowed you to cross-examine his expert limited to the scope of the testimony as is permitted as if you were counsel as if you were an attorney once Mr Pape is finished you as the objector will have an opportunity to put on your case in Chief meaning that you can submit any evidence you would like I even believe I asked you if you had any expert witnesses that you int had had it anticipated uh providing testimony uh to support the positions that you've taken um I don't believe that to be the case here uh but again you're going to have an opportunity to say whatever you would like as the formal objector to this case once the applicant is finished that is how the procedure works again you will be permitted to cross-examine the witnesses as to the scope of their testimony once they finish their testimony it will be limited to the scope of the testimony the procedure is clear it's been made clear and writing it's been made clear on the record this evening I I I I can't stress that enough I I've given every opportunity for everyone to understand the procedure uh you know this is not a surprise with that having been said Mr P you may call your next witness the applicants next witness is Steve rasty the architect who is responsible for the design of the buildings if we could have Mr rasi sworn will share his credential and go through his testimony good evening Mr rasi thank you for raising your right hand do you solemly swear affirm that testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much if you would please state your name provide your affiliation in your credentials this board accept your credentials sir just remember to speak loudly into the microphone and I'm going to ask you make one more statement that just confirm that your license in the state state of New Jersey is a good standing yes it is thank you I'm going to ask if you could identify to the board the exhibits that you would like to rely upon for your testimony and then if you could take us through in a narrative fashion the design of the buildings issues that I'd like you to address are the aesthetic elements of the outside of the building the compatibility of the buildings the utility of the buildings and there was a specific question about fire suppression requirements so if you could take take us through the design of the building and what the fire suppression requirements are thank you uh yes so I have uh two drawings uh and right now I'd like if we could if we could bring up sheet sk1 at it's proposed office and it's dated uh 7524 thank you so there are two proposed new buildings at the site the front building is a twostory 9,000 ft office building while the rear building is a 1-story 4,000 ft Maintenance building the office building is designed for anywhere to one to four different tenants and our client would utilize the two office Suites at the second floor the first floor has three pairs of entry doors the left and right doors would be utilized for the first floor spaces while the center door would enter into the main St for the second floor spaces the second staircase at the rear of the building would provide the second means of eress from the second floor I designed this building to have a lot of flexibility for possible multiple tenants with uh many windows for a lot of natural light uh the building will be ADA Compliant and will comply with the current addition of the New Jersey barrier-free sub code the building will not have an elevator but the New Jersey barrier-free subcode does not require elevators in buildings under 10,000 ft that are not used for government or healthare facilities entrance stores stairwells toilet rooms and other building elements will fully comply with the Ada this building would have no retail use or medical office use it'll be used only for general office use uh the building uh would not be fire sprinklered uh which is not required by code for a building of this size uh but it will have fire alarms fire extinguishers smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors so I coordinated the design of the building with the landscape design to make the building in sight to be as attractive as possible the north elevation the front of the building was designed with many windows and other architectural elements to be architecturally interesting I started with a faux stone base with a water table that would visually anchor the building to the ground the same Stone would extend up around a bump out and an archway at the center of the building to accentuate the central doors this the arch ceiling above would provide protection for the rain for people using the doors as well as providing an aesthetically interesting Central arched window also at this North elevation are two pairs of Double Glass entry doors with roofs supported by columns with stone bases the main facade material would be a warm colored Earth Tone stucco or ephus Finn the symetrical elevation would be broken up with black framed aluminum windows with low E glazing as well as white trim window casing and freeze boards the roof would be a hip roof with a deep red uh standing seam metal finish uh a hip roof was selected over a gable roof in order to visually keep down the scale of the building uh the roof will be designed for added structural loading in order to support possible future solar panels at the central Gable of the roof would be a 12-in High non internally illuminated Channel numbers denoting the street address and below the street numerals would be the building mounted sign uh the sign would be non- internally illuminated and would be lighted with LED goose neck uh fixtures this sign would be 3 ft high and 7 ft long for a total of 21 Square ft uh this sign would include no more than four colors as per the ordinance the same materials that I used for the design of the north elevation would also extend around all of the other three elevations making them equally interesting as the front elevation can uh the monument sign at at the northern corner of the site would be a new monument sign and we are proposing a sign that would be 8 ft tall and 5'8 wide that would match the colors and materials of the main building uh it would have a faux stone base and stule Finn and support a 5T High by 5'8 wide internally illuminated LED sign box that's a 28336 in high nonilluminated address numerals uh showing the street address of the property the sign itself is uh 2 feet taller than is allowed by the sign ordinance however I thought that the extra height would be helpful for the Aesthetics of the sign the bottom two Fe the sign would be used for a stone base to match the base of the building this would allow Landscaping to be planted at the Bas base of the sign without obscuring the sign box uh this sign would include a maximum of four colors and and the Tenant names will be of uniform in uh color and style if if we could bring up sheet sk2 uh this is the proposed Maintenance building and it also has a same date of 71524 uh the maintenance building is located behind the main building however it was designed to be equally as attractive as the office building it was designed to be an accessory use to the main uh building and will not be rented out as a separate use uh the building will be a one-story block structure of 4,000 square ft uh with uh structural roof trusses it was designed to match the main structure uh it would have faux stone with a water table at the base of the exterior walls to match the main building the walls above the stone would be an earth toned stucco the roof would also have a standing C metal roof of the same pitch and style as the front building and this building would have an overhead door and uh several man doors for loading of equipment and supplies and high up on the exterior walls would be Windows to allow natural light into the space while allowing the Interiors side of the walls to be free for storage this building wouldn't have any signage does that conclude your presentation of the designed buildings yes it does I have no further examination of Mr rasi and he is available to you your professionals and Mr Rivier any questions or comments for the architect is there suppression Maintenance building sprinklers there uh there would not be sprinklers but there would be uh fire alarm smoke detects or carbon oxide detector no sister no pumps uh they would not the chair would you be able to aluminate the address sign together with the big sign you said that the address itself is not being illuminated um we we can illuminate if I from a safety standpoint if you're Illuminating everything else why would why wouldn't you illuminate the address for safety would be beneficial uh yes we could do that thank you any other questions or comments for the architect being that we have no other um comments for the architect at this time Mr Riv would you like to uh speak with Mr rasi just to clarify this cross-examination shall be limited solely to what Mr rasi placed on the record the design of the building yes I got it might be a little slow but after the fifth time I I got it okay uh is this a metal building is it a metal building I'm not sure of the exact construction type that we're going to use yet it's either going to be metal or wood all right I'm talking about the maintenance building is that going to be a metal building it's a metal roof it's a metal roof so it's a so the maintenance building is going to be block walls and it's going to have roof trusses and it's going to have metal standing seam Roofing okay now when you designed the maintenance did you design it around the type of vehicles that will be in there uh I designed the building to have a 14 ft High a clear ceiling height um and it's uh 4,000 ft okay so how many lifts would be in there I'm I'm not ass sure of uh how many lifts there would be in there okay so uh if it's there is only one Overhead Door by the way if using a lift that brings the vehicle or the equipment up maybe six or S feet right you're saying that 14 ft is the highest at the top of the vehicle the the underside of the roof trues will be at 14 ft okay now the uh the parts and the used parts and the uh the debris material will that be stored inside this maintenance shed maintenance uh building Pol lightly that was not the testimony the testimony of storage came from Miss seino at the last meeting where the statement was that everything would be stored inside the building the objection is sustained there was no testimony from Mr adasi as to what's being stored that's that's an operational question not an architectural question okay so uh let's go to the uh Office Buildings yes can we switch the thing to the uh the slide to the office buildings okay now um these are open spaced uh design offices they're currently uh designed yes with an open space and I guess the uh people occupying will be using cubicles or something like that there may be cubicles there may be interior walls on the plan we denote uh with Dash lines some possible locations uh for interior walls um but we haven't designed the interior walls yet just as a follow-up question to that so that we can get past this I have a Mr sorry um the question I have for you is obviously it would be subject to build out at the time of rental based upon what the tenant would want correct correct and that's why it's not designed yet we um we designed the the building so it would work we designed it for egress purposes we just and and then the the exact walls would be at a later date it would there would be a fit up plan made for build buildout is usually buildout is usually a function of the lease itself correct exactly thank you all right is the office building going to be uh a metal building the the office building is either going to be a steel or wood building so it could be metal it could be made of metal steel is metal I think that you should clarify you're talking about the infrastructure of the building not the facade elements if you could just distinguish right I'm talking about the the physic exterior walls I'm talking about the exterior walls are they metal or or what what are they so the so what you see on the exterior walls is going to be stucco Stone and above that metal roofing the structure of the walls are either going to be made of steel or wood you're going to put stucko on a steel wall is that what you're saying I'm just clarifying you know um the walls are either going to be metal studs or they're going to be wood studs we haven't made that decision I'm talking about the exterior of the wall the exterior of the wall would have stucco or stone Su Stone all the way to the roof just as per the rendering correct okay that's the that's all the questions I have thank you thank you do we any based on those questions does anybody have any questions Mr V the the main building will have uh bathrooms the maintenance building have bathrooms I don't believe so what's the employees going to do when they have to go to the bathroom there's no bathroom in the maintenance maintenance building is an ancillary building to the office of the contractor the contractor the commitment to the board is that the contractor will lease 50% of the building so you have a Nexus between the 50% of the building and Maintenance building I'm going to hold on whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa we're a little confused about what you're saying just looking for clarification and we're not you know be rating just clarification now you're saying that the maintenance building will have no bathrooms for the people working in the maintenance room in the maintenance building the the the maintenance building is is for the most part storage building whoever is using the maintenance building will be part of the office building so they will have full access to the office building picture your house with a garage you don't have aach garage you're saying almost is that what you're describing basically yes okay now will there be running water in the maintenance building there probably will be okay so somebody who is this one of the employees uh has to walk over to the main office building building to use the restroom I'm just trying to get it in my you know clarification there's no bathroom Okay uh hold hold on whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa Mr Rivier was identified as the objector I I I'm not I'm happy to swear you in ma'am but I'm I'm simply trying to figure out who who's doing what at this point um all right clarify the bathroom situation thank you being that there's no more questions Mr vasi Mr peep do you have any additional Witnesses Madam chair I have one additional witness this evening I respectfully ask if I could have a three to five minute recess just to speak to the witness and the applicant all right I was going to ask if you mind if we had a recess um so we will be back at it's 10 of 10 we take testimony till 10:30 and obviously with the public here we will open public but we'll be back in five minutes to try to keep this short thank you e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e call the meeting back to order thank you Mr great your show Madam chair board members um I this is your applicant's request you'll if this is acceptable to the board is clear that Mr R has a case to put on and as it's just about 10 o'clock if our planner goes on our planner will take 15 to 20 minutes conservatively to make the direct presentation examination we're at 10 10:30 in a split second what I would ask is this all of our our fact Witnesses have testified the planner is the last witness to testify after all the fact Witnesses clearly we're going to be returning I would appreciate it if we could re relinquish the remainder of the evening to the the public I would have no objection to the public if they wish to comment openly it's not confine their comments to examination and ask that we'd be permitted to come to the next meeting where our planner Begins the presentation and hopefully we can conclude at that evening just don't think it's it's a fair to only allow five minutes to the applicant to the objector at this hour so if that's acceptable we're asking for when you give us a new hearing date we'll begin with the planner's testimony but to the extent that the chair and the boards comfortable the remainder of the evening can be turned over to the public as you direct just one minute okay that that would be fun I think given the hour I think that's an appropriate solution considering the fact that you're definitely coming back you're going to have your planner 15 to 20 minutes that's like me saying executive session is going to take 15 to 20 minutes which we all know is not true um you know uh I I would I would agree with you I think that's the appropriate course of action here considering the planner's testimony as well as the objector case and chief um so I I I the chairwoman has accepted that proposal um so we will I'll let um we'll yield you'll yield tonight Madam chair you can open to the public sure if we could work out what that next hearing date is oh yeah of course very fine um yeah I'll take a look at the let's open public I'll take a look at the agendas in the meantime and then uh I'll give you some dates that I might have in mind okay all right just so we're all on the same page um Mr P uh has asked that we delay hearing is planned to the next meeting given the hour so what we're going to do now is open it to the public anyone wishing to come forward and comment uh on what was heard this evening please do so at this time uh Mr Pape has waved that particular provision um and he's uh indicated that you're free to comment on the entire application okay um so if but before you do I have to swear you um if you would please raise your right hand thank you do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments they you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you yes sorry does it go down and just for the record remember public sessions usually um limited to five minutes per person okay um if you would before you I know it's a lot of procedure uh can you please state your name uh spell your last name and provide your address yes my name is Bonnie Rivier I live r i v i e re E I live at 1009 West Commodore Boulevard my property and home is the one right next to the proposed um construction site thank you um I have very u a lot of concerns I mean you know we just finished building this house we plan to spend you know many years there enjoying our you know golden years and um my concerns are um firstly the noise and the vibration um uh there's no question that there will there will be increased noise levels um daily operations with heavy machinery trucks and maintenance uh activities generate a lot of noise and um this could be really disruptive to my way of life and other people that live in the area um the vibrations are are you know trucks make a lot of you know I mean there's a lot of vibrations already on that road I mean they truck going by all the time and trucks pulling in right next to my property definitely are going to make a lot of vibrations I'm worried about the air quality and the odors these trucks have emissions um they it's it will affect the local air quality this is a concern for me and if I you know want want it at some point to sell my house it's going to you know lower the value of my property um I'm also so worried about health issues I mean you know these uh trucks have big pollutants and you know I don't particularly want to suck in the polluted air that these trucks are Emitt emitting there's also order odors you know that come from Fuel and you know uh the trucks the exhaust from the trucks um there's traffic and safety concerns um it it'll you know definitely going to have an increase in traffic because you've got I think uh it was said 50 parking spaces so that's a lot of cars going you know coming right by my house every day to pull into this parking lot not to mention these big heavy trucks pulling in and out um it will you know wear on the road too you know the the road will deteriorate um the you know the visual and aesthetic impact is going to be very negative I mean you know they don't look nice you know big me metal buildings don't look very nice um big trucks don't look nice a big parking lot doesn't look nice um you know all of these things are going to impact the value of my property and um I think there'll be a perception in the area that this is turning this area is turning more industrial than res residential um and you know 6:00 a.m. to 6: p.m. you know 6:00 a.m. in the morning to have big trucks and and pulling in is is disruptive I mean you know you some people are still asleep at that time um I we also uh asked a real estate consultant to give us his opinion I won't read it because I went over a lot of the things that I just said but I will read you his um final conclus conclusionary paragraph in our opinion placing an infrastructure construction yard with a 6: a.m. to 6: p.m 4,000 foot meet and garage and fueling facility adjacent to your single family home at 1009 West Comer Bard will reduce the value and your qu value of your property and your quality of life and you know when it's appropriate I can you know submit that into the record thank you for coming forward just to reiterate what was stated earlier the applicant has already stated they're not going to have the fueling facility at I didn't know that one I oh no no no I'm just I'm just stating for the records to all on the same page that's all okay I just have could I just interrupt I just have one question if I may go Dr actually can I can I ask a question to the Bon to M re re what what zone is you have it's a commercial Highway commercial Highway commercial so like your home is not in a residential Zone it's in a highway commercial Zone excuse me your home is not in a residential Zone there properties around around I'm sorry there are a lot of Residential Properties around me but your home itself is a commercial in a commercial Zone commercial Highway which is not like an industrial um maintenance garage uh ma'am I'm s Mr Question just just for the for the newer boards members U knowledge the rever were in front of this board as part of a variance application to construct their home on this lot that was probably five maybe six years ago or so give or take the question I have for you though is you heard the applicant uh offer to switch the the driveways right make the Comm make the truck driveway further away from your home and bring the vehicle the car vehicle the office workers driveway closer to you home are you in agreement with your husband I I guess I'm not in agreement with any of it no I'm saying with you so I don't want to answer that question okay I just all right I don't think so thank you so much good evening if you could just use the microphone please oh I don't need it I got a big only BEC only because it's being recorded and actually even I have a big mouth and it it won't pick me up if I'm not talking directly into the mic um if you would please raate hand thank you do you solemly swear or affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I do thank you very much if you would please state your name spell your last and provide your address Joan hom hom utth 720 West commoner Boulevard thank you very much no problem now my concerns are they've already on West commoner Boulevard they've already built three warehouses one still being built not too far from my house and the trucking increase traffic is unbelievable used to be a nice quiet neighborhood and it is a residential neighborhood nice quiet neighborhood now all you get is the trucks roaring through there down down you know doing their brakes all the way down the road it it's just ridiculous you can't sit out on the front porch and have a cup of coffee without all this traffic going by going down on the other side of West Commodore on 571 at any given time there's a ton of traffic Great Adventures open there's no way on 537 you're getting down 571 it's all backed up Christmas time you have the outlets they Park all up and down 571 around the Christmas time you can't I I don't know how these big rigs are going to come down to Lane Highway make a wide turn and into that where they're talking it it's just not it's not going to be done besides the fact you got the children getting off their school buses the value of our houses are all going to go down I just put a lot of money into my house making it going to be the rest of my life being there and now it's like I don't want to be here it's too noisy so it it's a big concern for everybody I know it is thank you thank you for coming forward okay good evening good evening if you would please raise your right hand thank you do you solemnly swear or firm that testimony information questions are comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes if you would please state your name spell your last name provide your address Janet Nordy n o o r d zy 967 West comor Boulevard thank you okay so I've been a resident of Jackson since 1989 and I I believe I am commercial residential I'm in lot 13 three lots away from this whatever this is happening I'm concerned about what is what is actually going to be happening there concerned about the pollution everybody has Wells I'm worried about the well water traffic is terrible on 571 now so I don't see how it's going to how it's going to work but you know I guess they're going to end up putting a falling Street in there at some point so I am worried about all that Mr Riv said and the other lady my property values of course will go down and uh to me it was always a residential area and now it's it's just going to be a mess so I I don't even want to see it happening but you know did you know that that area is actually Highway commercial where I live no let me rephrase that not speaking for your home I'm speaking for uh where this is this is actually zones Highway commercial no I don't why would I know yeah okay thank you thank you so much for coming forward thank you anyone else wishing to come forward PA R one9 West commodor you're already sworn you want me to swear myself in or no you've already been sworn okay I just want to put on the record it's typically out of the ordinary for the objector to comment during public session but go ahead that's F go ahead got turn it on the bottom okay I did want to respond to this thing about uh Mr hoffstein yeah uh I had a a lot I owned for 30 years and it was in a highway commercial area okay and I got a I took every step I got my Lois it did took me like five years and I got all the permits I completed my home just a month ago okay it's brand new home now if you were to ask me if I knew I I built that house because I was depending upon the zoning it's Highway commercial I said this is not a problem you know it could be a bagel shop a a bank an office that would not upset me it'd be nice I could walk across and get a bagel so it didn't had no problem with that I would have not invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in a brand new home if I knew that it would be industrial okay it would still be a vacant lot and I'd be trying to sell it as an industrial also all right just want to clear clarify that I relied on your master plan in your zoning when I invested hundreds of thousands of dollars okay now I do want to say that I I don't like that the applicant has moved the use variance to the rear of the application normally the use variance is discussed before you even get into the the the nitty-gritty of the application and and the reason for that is because some use variances or site plans can't be tweaked to make them fit the area now in this case we uh PM I did some research PM their headquarters is located in an industrial Zone okay they knew when they bought this property it was Highway commercial somehow they figured out that they can convert it to an industrial use okay now an industrial use is a Class D variance okay let me look at this up trying to be organized to here okay you in order to meet a class T variance it's the highest level of uh variance you you have to get I mean it's the most difficult you have to have special reasons uh lack of special reasons you have to have special reasons justifying granting the variance the benefits proposed use do not outweigh the potential negative on the Community that's the first criteria somebody's going to the burden of proof to demonstrate the necessity of variance is on the applicant and so far it hasn't been met okay there's Alternatives there's other industrial sites here in Jackson that can be used and they and they're in the appropriate areas okay let me just so there's a a positive criteria that the uh the use variants will promote the general welfare of the municipal land use specifically the uh applicant has so far not shown it would Advance any purpose of zoning provide adequate light open space or promote a desirable visual environment those are some of the things that you would at by granting it uh there's a failure to meet the negative criteria the applicant has to prove the variance can be granted without substantial detriment to public good and without impairing the intent purpose of the zoning plan and zoning ordinance the proposed use could could could potentially cause significant impacts on the surrounding neighborhood and certainly my house what is that your time limit and it's also inconsistent with the master plan so so if my time is out thank you for hearing me and thank you for your patience thank you all right so just a couple couple things and just to clarify for the board I don't want there to be any misunderstanding because we have new members this is a application for a now for p Min Ary site plan approval um without final as well as a use variance the applicant did not bifurcate the application um as long as I've been doing land use law and as many times as I've appeared before other boards and presented applications um my planner uh as Mr Pape has indicated will be his last witness my planner is often my last witness as well the planner ties to together the application and sets forth the variance criteria here the applicant needs what's called a D1 variant and it's called the D1 variance because it falls under NJ it's it's defined statutorily under njsa 40 colon 55 d-7 D1 so it's called the D1 variance and it is the most difficult variance to get under the law um and that's because of the holding in the medich case and the medich case tells us that in order for the applicant to get a D1 variance they must meet both the positive and negative criteria the negative criteria being as it always is uh the variance can be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and without substantial impairment to the intent of the Zone plan and Zone ordinance that is the language as to what negative criteria is word for word the positive criteria for a one variant similar to what was just placed on the record but just to clarify the positive criteria is something we talk about as the special reasons or the particular suitability of the particular site for the use that's proposed okay not only that um the applicant has to meet the enhanced quality of proof as defined under Michi and that's to tell us why um the uh the governing body has not saw fit to include this type of use within the Zone um considering there uh are report to them every year under the ml um as well as um their uh uh their task of reviewing the ordinances of the township each year to determine if if ordinance changes are necessary with that having been said those proofs have not been heard yet because the planner has not yet testified okay so I agree to a certain extent that we have not yet heard that testimony um however as we heard from Mr Pape he asked to bring his planner the next time around uh to wrap up his application which again considering the fact that it's now 10:25 probably the right call um you know so so again use my version of the variance criteria when evaluating this case because it's accurate um and succinct uh and and and it echoes what the the court decided in the medich case which is the controlling case on D1 variant um and again uh take that you know with you know the applicant has the burden to satisfy both the positive and negative criteria required for D1 variant period um and we will see if that occurs when the planner testifies I have nothing further is R hold on one second um we haven't closed public session yet is there anyone else wishing to come forward and make a comment thank you for raising your right hand do you solemnly swear affirm that the testimony information questions or comments that you're about to present before the board will represent the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yes I do thank you sir if you would please state your name spell your last provide your address Jim Sakia s i l e CC hiia my address is six harfield Drive in Jackson um I know this is preliminary we'll be coming back for final but I think some of the things I'm going to say may want to be taken into consideration um you discussed I guess before I make my assumption has this new plan been provided to the fire officials for their review and have they signed off on the revised plan with the two driveways has not been provided to the fire department and it will along those lines and you'll you'll find if you go back and look whenever I come up and I talk a lot of is about fire fire stuff the buildings we've talked about have are going to not have any sprinklers in you're going to have have if there's 50 parking spaces I'm going to make the Assumption one person per parking spot the building may have 50 people in m i don't any time just try to talk into the microphone sorry it just moved on me Jackson Township right now has a tremendous problem within their fire departments they are volunteer fire department with very limited life members okay they are begging for volunteers what I suggest is that the applicant and the engineer and whoever else is looks into getting something into these buildings to help the fire department before the fire department gets there because it could be any length of time okay my second comment and I understand the Ada doesn't require it and I can and every time I hear this it J me nuts and we have a two-story building and it's going to be an office building I'm not sure why size of the building matters if you're an employer and you're on the second floor and your building doesn't have elevators you're basically saying you'll never hire disabled people and I'm not sure that's something you want to present to people so I would consider you know even though it's a small building if you're going to hire people that may need an elevator on that in that building so ex that's all have a good night everyone thank you for coming forward anyone else wishing to come forward and make comment about this evening please do so at this time seeing no one else come forward I'm going to go ahead and close public session you want to set a date or I supposed to be doing this but I was listening no not this evening sir when you come back Mr P um November 6th we only have one application on is that something that would be acceptable to you November 6th or November 20th you can join roseen bloom again November 20th Works Mr Murphy very good um there is one application uh listed for November 20th uh accordingly you will be the second application on for that evening um no additional notice will be required but I presume that the applicant will wave time if applicable we do wave time um we'll Grant an extension of time through the end of the year and if additional time is required we will grant the same I'll follow this oral representation with a letter to your board secretary tomorrow if I may ask Mr intii has testified and his testimony is concluded and he has been cross-examined by the board the board's professionals and the public do you require Mr inly to be present during the presentation by the planner now I have the same question for Mr rasi uh the Mr anti and Mr Roski both have been questioned by yourself this board the professionals and the objector so no the answer is no they will not be required to attend the meeting uh on November 20th thank you you're welcome so we're carried to November 20th no further notice no further publication we'll be prepared to present the testimony of the planner and will be prepared to witness and participate in the objectors case and chief very good I will make that announcement for the record okay um application number three on this evening's agenda while herd has not been completed a Partners LLC which is preliminary uh preliminary site plan 918 with use variants 3497 block 291 Lots 79 and 10 um um this application will be carried with no requirement for additional notice to the November 20th 2024 meeting of the Jackson Township Zoning Board of adjustment the applicant has waved time through December 31st of 2024 which I greatly appreciate um and that will uh conclude this hearing for this evening thank you Mr P motion to adjourn move it second all in favor on